Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer than Wayne Gretzky

[LightningStorm]

In all seriousness, around how many goals do you think Bossy scores if he plays until 1994? That would've been 7 seasons, meaning he retires at age 37. I chose that season because that was Trottier's final season (though the previous season was his first retired before his one season comeback), so that's my educated guess for how long a healthy Bossy plays.

He averaged 57 goals/season and 62 goals/82 games, obviously skewed high because of his early retirement, and scored 573 career goals in 10 seasons. If you cut his 57 GPS in half for these 7 hypothetical seasons, he still ends up with about 770 career goals, soon to be 4th all time. To reach 800, he'd need to average 33 GPS, and 47 GPS to reach 900 (surpassing Gretzky's 894).

My best guess is he surpasses 800 goals and retires 2nd to Gretzky in career goals. In this situation, making the assumption he's a career Islander, the circumstances and timing would be favorable to him. He'd have LaFontaine and later Turgeon as his centers, both of whom were really good playmakers. Also, he retires right before the dead puck era begins, so still a relatively high scoring era, despite league scoring not being as high as it was at his peak.

Obviously this is a difficult hypothetical, and the assumption that he plays 7 more seasons if healthy is just my best guess. About how many career goals do you think Bossy gets if healthy?

 

[daver]

I always find this is my argument. Bossy and Ovechkin per se, and for that matter Richard, are better pure goal scorers. Just like Ty Cobb or even Rod Carew were better pure hitters than Babe Ruth. But......................Babe Ruth is probably the best hitter of all-time because he not only had an insane average, he smashed home run records while doing it. Same thing with Gretzky, he was smashing records all over the place, not just scoring goals. To me that is always more impressive. Score 92 goals all the while having an often forgotten all-time single season assist record set (at the time, later broken by him). I mean, incredible! It dwarfs the times Ovechkin had 50 goals and 25 assists.

I agree with this. IMO, players like Wayne,Mario and Howe (and Jagr, Crosby and McDavid to a lesser extent) are above these "best goalscorer" debates when noone objectively would take Bossy, Ovechkin, Hull etc... over them under any circumstances.

Bossy vs. other noted goalscorers is a more interesting discussion given that the primary metric is their goal totals, not their overall offensive contributions.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I agree with this. IMO, players like Wayne,Mario and Howe (and Jagr, Crosby and McDavid to a lesser extent) are above these "best goalscorer" debates when noone objectively would take Bossy, Ovechkin, Hull etc... over them under any circumstances.

Nice history revision there.

Lots of people would take Ovechkin over Crosby, Jagr, and McDavid. Probably true for Hull as well.

 

[TheStatican]

In terms of head to head seasons:

1979-1980. Gretzky (rookie) ties Bossy 51 goals
1980-1981. Bossy 68, Gretzky 55. Clear win for Bossy. This is the only one.
1981-1982. Gretzky 92, Bossy 64.
1982-83. Gretzky 71, Bossy 60
1983-1984. Gretzky 87, Bossy 51.
1984-1985. Gretzky 73, Bossy 58
1985-1986. Gretzky 52 Bossy 61 - but should we even count this as a win when Gretzky said he was targeting 2 assists per game - and did score 160 assists? Seems pretty insane.
1986-87. Gretzky 62 goals, Bossy 38 (missed ~20 games).

Those are humongous wins by Gretzky - outside of his sophmore year, he beat him handily every single season, and usually by a lot - except for the one year where he went to get 160+ assists. And in every one of those seasons - Gretzky also led the league in assists, which cut into his goals scored.

Based on all of this - Gretzky is very very clearly ahead.

And of course - after 1986-87, Gretzky added 58 more playoff goals, 413 more regular season goals, and owns the record all-time in both cases.

No - Bossy has absolutely no argument at all over Gretzky for a goal-scorer.

It's disingenuous to compare their seasons head-to-head considering that omits Bossy's single best regular season and the second best rookie goal scoring season of all-time.

Also why not include the playoff? Here's what they put up in their first 10 seasons when the most important games were played;
Bossy - 85 in 129
Gretzky - 86 in 131

Hardily "Gretzky is very very clearly ahead" or "absolutely no argument at all" type of material.


On a year to year basis when we actually include the playoffs the gap is considerably narrower; 6 wins for Gretzky vs 4 for Bossy. But if we look at a more relevant metric - their goals per game production Bossy actually comes out ahead 6 to 4;

In terms of absolute peak, no question Gretzky handily wins. But if that's all that mattered then why are more and more people declaring that it's Ovechkin and not Gretzky who is the greatest goal scorer of all time? If peak was all that mattered there would no argument at all for Ovechkin > Gretzky, yet here we are.

Peak. Longevity. Consistency. All of these matter.
Bossy doesn't have the peak argument, nor does he have the longevity argument either but neither does Gretzky.

Longevity doesn't strengthen Gretzky's argument as the best goal scorer of all time, it weakens it. After his 10th season Gretzky's goal scoring prowess was not all that impressive. Aside from allowing him to play enough games to become the all-time goal scoring leader Gretzky's 11th to 20th does little to strengthen his argument as the best goal scorer of all time and in fact longevity and consistency is why more and more people are ranking Ovechkin over Gretzky as the better goal scorer now. Yes, yes, I know it's because of "reasons". Give me a break. Using "reasons" to explain Gretzky decline as a goal scorer is an insult to both Bossy and Lemieux, both of whom have far more significant reasons than Gretzky ever had that did far more damage to their respective legacies.

Bossy is easily the most consistent of the NHL's all-time greatest goal scorers and proved himself to be more consistent than Gretzky. His biggest deviation on a per game basis from his peak season was 33%, every other year he was essentially with 20% of his peak. Gretzky deviated from his peak by 40-45% in 6 of his 10 best years and 50% to 80% thereafter. Between the two of them Gretzky has the top 3 seasons on a goals-per-game basis, but then it's all Bossy; he has 6 of the next best 7 which gives his a 6 of the top 10 seasons between the two and a 9 to 6 advantage of the top 15. I can only imagine how many more seasons ahead Bossy would've been had he been able to keep playing, but even still he's ahead in more of their prime seasons and these are not "what if's" they're actual facts.

If one values absolute peak there's no argument. But if one values peak, longevity and consistency all equally then you betcha there's at least an argument. Gretzky has peak, Ovechkin has longevity, Bossy has consistency.

 

[Jets4Life]

Seriously....not many years ago, I didn't even realize there were any hockey people who thought Gretzky was a better goal-scorer than Bossy, outside of a very small minority. Now, it seems like almost everybody of younger generations thinks this.

In the 1980s, the large majority thought Bossy was the better goal-scorer....and, among smart hockey people, virtually everybody.

Bossy's game was ultra-adaptable to any situation, to any level of hockey. He was focused and very intelligent.

This is not even remotely close to being true. In the 80s, Gretzky was considered the greatest goal and point scoring player by 90% of the population. Gretzky scored more goals than Bossy in 6 of 8 head to head seasons. If anything, due to the Dead Puck Era, and the decline of Gretzky's goal scoring output in the 90s, Bossy started to be called the greatest goal scorer in NHL history by a greater number of people. However, in 1987, it was nearly unanimous for Gretzky.

Gretzky could adapt better than Bossy to most situations. Gretzky was that much better in hockey IQ.

 

[Jets4Life]

Bossy is easily the most consistent of the NHL's all-time greatest goal scorers and proved himself to be more consistent than Gretzky. His biggest deviation on a per game basis from his peak season was 33%, every other year he was essentially with 20% of his peak. Gretzky deviated from his peak by 40-45% in 6 of his 10 best years and 50% to 80% thereafter. Between the two of them Gretzky has the top 3 seasons on a goals-per-game basis, but then it's all Bossy; he has 6 of the next best 7 which gives his a 6 of the top 10 seasons between the two and a 9 to 6 advantage of the top 15. I can only imagine how many more seasons ahead Bossy would've been had he been able to keep playing, but even still he's ahead in more of their prime seasons and these are not "what if's" they're actual facts.

It's easy to state that Bossy was a better goal scorer, if you exclude the fact that he retired after 30, and he probably would not have even finished with 50 goals in his final season. Bossy was going to deteriorate, as his back could not hold up, and the dramatic decrease in scoring was just around the corner.

It's easy to look at Gretzky's whole career, especially when he was more focused as a play maker. Keep in mind, Gretzky returned to play while hurting, after a near career ending back injury suffered in the 91 Canada Cup. With the Dead Puck era, and the dramatic drop off in scoring for Gretzky's final 6 years, it seems closer than it really was.

 

[ozzie]

Much as I liked Bossy, Gretzky made a conscious decision to elevate his team. He figured it was a better way to win. He held back and could have scored more. If he was a greedy player after goals, he probably could have hit 100. At the end of the day, he has the most goals in NHL history. Gretzky walked the walk even after taking is foot off the pedal.

 

[daver]

The OP should read that "Bossy was better known as a goalscorer than Wayne" As was Richard, Hull, Hull, OV, Bure etc...

When statistical arguments are close in regards to goal totals, GPGs, etc..., the player whose assist totals swamp the other, is the better "goalscorer" by default. I.e. they put up all-time goal total despite wearing a playmaker hat just as much.

 

[Ben Grimm]

Even if the thread title is true, so what. Gretzky has more assists than any other player has points.

 

[Calderon]

In terms of absolute peak, no question Gretzky handily wins. But if that's all that mattered then why are more and more people declaring that it's Ovechkin and not Gretzky who is the greatest goal scorer of all time? If peak was all that mattered there would no argument at all for Ovechkin > Gretzky, yet here we are.

You're really asking why it is possible for lots of people to have the ranking between the three as Ovechkin > Gretzky > Bossy?

Really really easy. Gretzky and Bossy were contemporaries and Gretzky came decidedly ahead. As for Gretzky vs. Ovi, there's a sizable era difference between them so you don't have a clear apples to apples comparison. I, too, think that Gretzky wins for peak but Ovi's longevity and consistency are arguably the best ever so Ovi is a very good choice for the greatest ever goal scorer. To sum it up, there's plenty of logic in play here.

 

[MadLuke]

I am not sure about that Gretzky peak being clearly ahead of Ovi, specially handily wins, that would be based on what ?

 

[Staniowski]

This is not even remotely close to being true. In the 80s, Gretzky was considered the greatest goal and point scoring player by 90% of the population. Gretzky scored more goals than Bossy in 6 of 8 head to head seasons. If anything, due to the Dead Puck Era, and the decline of Gretzky's goal scoring output in the 90s, Bossy started to be called the greatest goal scorer in NHL history by a greater number of people. However, in 1987, it was nearly unanimous for Gretzky.

Gretzky could adapt better than Bossy to most situations. Gretzky was that much better in hockey IQ.

No, what you're saying is not true.

During the first half of the 1980s, there were many people who thought Bossy was the best goal-scorer in NHL history, and many others who thought he was the best since Hull and Richard. A lot of people thought similarly about Gretzky as an overall player, but not as a goal-scorer.

Gretzky was a great player who scored a lot of goals when he was young, but he was not a natural goal-scorer. He wasn't good at enough of the elements that make a great goal-scorer - he wasn't a great shooter (his shots were relatively weak); he wasn't great on breakaways, or dekes.

Gretzky scored the bulk of his goals very close to the net. When the league became better defensively starting in the mid-'80s, Gretzky had a lot more difficulty getting to the net to score those types of goals. His skating also declined around the same time.

Gretzky scored a lot of goals when he was young, and when the league was weak defensively. He couldn't consistently score a lot of goals outside of those conditions.

 

[BraveCanadian]

No, what you're saying is not true.

During the first half of the 1980s, there were many people who thought Bossy was the best goal-scorer in NHL history, and many others who thought he was the best since Hull and Richard. A lot of people thought similarly about Gretzky as an overall player, but not as a goal-scorer.

Gretzky was a great player who scored a lot of goals when he was young, but he was not a natural goal-scorer. He wasn't good at enough of the elements that make a great goal-scorer - he wasn't a great shooter (his shots were relatively weak); he wasn't great on breakaways, or dekes.

Gretzky scored the bulk of his goals very close to the net. When the league became better defensively starting in the mid-'80s, Gretzky had a lot more difficulty getting to the net to score those types of goals. His skating also declined around the same time.

Gretzky scored a lot of goals when he was young, and when the league was weak defensively. He couldn't consistently score a lot of goals outside of those conditions.

Gretzky was still a 60 goal scorer when Bossy retired. When did the league suddenly become good defensively, exactly?

 

[Calderon]

Gretzky was probably the best at capitalizing their era for goal scoring. He'd likely still find a way to win Art Rosses in the 2020s if he was McDavid's contemporary but no way he'd be scoring multiple 70+ goal seasons. Say both Gretzky and Bossy were born in the late 90s, I think Bossy scores more goals between the two of them. This, however, is a big hypothetical and not something that is in question when we assess and rank players of the past, instead we mainly rank them by what they actually did and distantly secondarily what they were capable of if not for injuries.

 

[bobbyking]

No, what you're saying is not true.

During the first half of the 1980s, there were many people who thought Bossy was the best goal-scorer in NHL history, and many others who thought he was the best since Hull and Richard. A lot of people thought similarly about Gretzky as an overall player, but not as a goal-scorer.

Gretzky was a great player who scored a lot of goals when he was young, but he was not a natural goal-scorer. He wasn't good at enough of the elements that make a great goal-scorer - he wasn't a great shooter (his shots were relatively weak); he wasn't great on breakaways, or dekes.

Gretzky scored the bulk of his goals very close to the net. When the league became better defensively starting in the mid-'80s, Gretzky had a lot more difficulty getting to the net to score those types of goals. His skating also declined around the same time.

Gretzky scored a lot of goals when he was young, and when the league was weak defensively. He couldn't consistently score a lot of goals outside of those conditions.

lol defense was still garbage mid 90s buddy

 

[Jets4Life]

No, what you're saying is not true.

During the first half of the 1980s, there were many people who thought Bossy was the best goal-scorer in NHL history, and many others who thought he was the best since Hull and Richard. A lot of people thought similarly about Gretzky as an overall player, but not as a goal-scorer.

That must have been early 1981. Absolutely nobody was claiming that after Gretzky's 92 goal season, or his subsequent seasons in the 80s. The general consensus was that Gretzky was the best scorer that the game had ever seen, in both goals and assists. It really was not until Mario started putting up insane numbers, where people started to second guess this theory.

Gretzky was a great player who scored a lot of goals when he was young, but he was not a natural goal-scorer. He wasn't good at enough of the elements that make a great goal-scorer - he wasn't a great shooter (his shots were relatively weak); he wasn't great on breakaways, or dekes.

It does not matter how one scores. The bottom line, is how many goals they score. The ends justify the means. Gretzky could have scored 70+ goals every season in the 80s, but in the second half of the decade became much more of a play-maker, realising that this was his true strength.

Gretzky scored the bulk of his goals very close to the net. When the league became better defensively starting in the mid-'80s, Gretzky had a lot more difficulty getting to the net to score those types of goals. His skating also declined around the same time.

Judging by the fact that the Goals per game did not really drop off substantially until 1993-94, this is not really correct. What may have hindered Gretzky was the "Gretzky rule" imposed by the NHL in 1985-86, that prevented 4 on 4 opportunities when offsetting minor penalties were assessed. I don't recall his skating ever regressing in the 80s. Gretzky was never the greatest skater to begin with.

Gretzky scored a lot of goals when he was young, and when the league was weak defensively. He couldn't consistently score a lot of goals outside of those conditions.

This is ridiculous. Once again, goal scoring peaked in 1981-82, then slowly declined by the end of the 80s, before really dropping off a cliff after the 1992-93 season. If Bossy had been healthy enough to play to age 38, he would have seen his totals slump to 20 goal seasons. In Bossy's last season, at 29, he was already starting to decline, only posting 38 goals in 1986-87, compared to 62 by Gretzky.

I find it mind boggling the mental gymnastics that people will do to discredit how great Gretzky was, especially in the 80s.

 

[Boxscore]

I know what the OP is saying but I'd argue Bossy was the better SHOOTER and SNIPER and Gretz was the better GOAL SCORER. I also put Hull and Ovechkin in the category, as I think they are better pure shooters than Gretz. The only overall goal scorer I've ever seen better than Gretz is Mario -- the dude could score better, and in more ways, than anyone in history and his pure sniping ability was as great as Bossy, Hull, Ovechkin, Matthews, etc.

 

[Staniowski]

lol defense was still garbage mid 90s buddy

No, defense was substantially more sophisticated in the mid-'90s than it was in the early '80s.

 

[Staniowski]

Gretzky was still a 60 goal scorer when Bossy retired. When did the league suddenly become good defensively, exactly?

Yes, he scored 62 goals in '87....but he was scoring at a pace of 94 goals three years prior, and barely 40 goals three years after. Those are huge declines.

The NHL didn't suddenly become a lot better defensively....it improved more or less consistently between the early '80s and the late '90s. But there was considerable improvement in the mid-'80s, mostly due to coaching, but for other reasons as well.

 

[Professor What]

I know what the OP is saying but I'd argue Bossy was the better SHOOTER and SNIPER and Gretz was the better GOAL SCORER. I also put Hull and Ovechkin in the category, as I think they are better pure shooters than Gretz. The only overall goal scorer I've ever seen better than Gretz is Mario -- the dude could score better, and in more ways, than anyone in history and his pure sniping ability was as great as Bossy, Hull, Ovechkin, Matthews, etc.

I can go with Bossy being the better shooter, but even with Gretzky's decline as a goalscorer, I have a hard time putting Bossy ahead of him as a scorer, simply because Bossy didn't last long enough to earn it. Let Bossy go another five years as a 50-60 goal guy and I could see the argument for him a lot better, but as it is, we're comparing a guy who played part of his career as a non-superelite goalscorer to a guy whose career wasn't long enough to know if that would happen to him or not.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Yes, he scored 62 goals in '87....but he was scoring at a pace of 94 goals three years prior, and barely 40 goals three years after. Those are huge declines.

The NHL didn't suddenly become a lot better defensively....it improved more or less consistently between the early '80s and the late '90s. But there was considerable improvement in the mid-'80s, mostly due to coaching, but for other reasons as well.

Players tend to decline as they get older and get their back rearranged.

 

[authentic]

It's disingenuous to compare their seasons head-to-head considering that omits Bossy's single best regular season and the second best rookie goal scoring season of all-time.

Also why not include the playoff? Here's what they put up in their first 10 seasons when the most important games were played;
Bossy - 85 in 129
Gretzky - 86 in 131

Hardily "Gretzky is very very clearly ahead" or "absolutely no argument at all" type of material.


On a year to year basis when we actually include the playoffs the gap is considerably narrower; 6 wins for Gretzky vs 4 for Bossy. But if we look at a more relevant metric - their goals per game production Bossy actually comes out ahead 6 to 4;
View attachment 597848

In terms of absolute peak, no question Gretzky handily wins. But if that's all that mattered then why are more and more people declaring that it's Ovechkin and not Gretzky who is the greatest goal scorer of all time? If peak was all that mattered there would no argument at all for Ovechkin > Gretzky, yet here we are.

Peak. Longevity. Consistency. All of these matter.
Bossy doesn't have the peak argument, nor does he have the longevity argument either but neither does Gretzky.

Longevity doesn't strengthen Gretzky's argument as the best goal scorer of all time, it weakens it. After his 10th season Gretzky's goal scoring prowess was not all that impressive. Aside from allowing him to play enough games to become the all-time goal scoring leader Gretzky's 11th to 20th does little to strengthen his argument as the best goal scorer of all time and in fact longevity and consistency is why more and more people are ranking Ovechkin over Gretzky as the better goal scorer now. Yes, yes, I know it's because of "reasons". Give me a break. Using "reasons" to explain Gretzky decline as a goal scorer is an insult to both Bossy and Lemieux, both of whom have far more significant reasons than Gretzky ever had that did far more damage to their respective legacies.

Bossy is easily the most consistent of the NHL's all-time greatest goal scorers and proved himself to be more consistent than Gretzky. His biggest deviation on a per game basis from his peak season was 33%, every other year he was essentially with 20% of his peak. Gretzky deviated from his peak by 40-45% in 6 of his 10 best years and 50% to 80% thereafter. Between the two of them Gretzky has the top 3 seasons on a goals-per-game basis, but then it's all Bossy; he has 6 of the next best 7 which gives his a 6 of the top 10 seasons between the two and a 9 to 6 advantage of the top 15. I can only imagine how many more seasons ahead Bossy would've been had he been able to keep playing, but even still he's ahead in more of their prime seasons and these are not "what if's" they're actual facts.

If one values absolute peak there's no argument. But if one values peak, longevity and consistency all equally then you betcha there's at least an argument. Gretzky has peak, Ovechkin has longevity, Bossy has consistency.

Ovechkin has the peak as well. I think you're forgetting that 65 goals in 2008 is like 90 in the early 80s.

 

[Regal]

Ovechkin has the peak as well. I think you're forgetting that 65 goals in 2008 is like 90 in the early 80s.

I think that’s pretty debatable. Adjusted numbers put Ovechkin’s slightly higher, but it’s clear that star scoring was high relative to league scoring in ‘08 and low in ‘82. Gretzky was 70% higher than 5th place and 84% higher than 10th. Ovechkin was 51% higher than 5th and 63% higher than 10th. Based on other scorers, it was probably more like low to mid 80s in goals. Gretzky’s ‘84 was also just below in adjusted goals but higher in adjusted goals per game.

 

[Staniowski]

Players tend to decline as they get older and get their back rearranged.

Of course, but the decline that I'm referring to - which is the bulk of his decline - happened when he was young and relatively healthy. When he got older, and sustained significant injuries, the decline just kept going.

 

[Staniowski]

That must have been early 1981. Absolutely nobody was claiming that after Gretzky's 92 goal season, or his subsequent seasons in the 80s. The general consensus was that Gretzky was the best scorer that the game had ever seen, in both goals and assists. It really was not until Mario started putting up insane numbers, where people started to second guess this theory.



It does not matter how one scores. The bottom line, is how many goals they score. The ends justify the means. Gretzky could have scored 70+ goals every season in the 80s, but in the second half of the decade became much more of a play-maker, realising that this was his true strength.


Judging by the fact that the Goals per game did not really drop off substantially until 1993-94, this is not really correct. What may have hindered Gretzky was the "Gretzky rule" imposed by the NHL in 1985-86, that prevented 4 on 4 opportunities when offsetting minor penalties were assessed. I don't recall his skating ever regressing in the 80s. Gretzky was never the greatest skater to begin with.


This is ridiculous. Once again, goal scoring peaked in 1981-82, then slowly declined by the end of the 80s, before really dropping off a cliff after the 1992-93 season. If Bossy had been healthy enough to play to age 38, he would have seen his totals slump to 20 goal seasons. In Bossy's last season, at 29, he was already starting to decline, only posting 38 goals in 1986-87, compared to 62 by Gretzky.

I find it mind boggling the mental gymnastics that people will do to discredit how great Gretzky was, especially in the 80s.

Yes, it does matter how a player scores, because if you have more limited ways of scoring, and you are no longer able to score in those ways, then you're in trouble. That's basically what happened to Gretzky. In the early '80s, he had easier lanes to the net. When those lanes became more clogged, he didn't have as many other ways to score (as a goal-scorer)...unlike Bossy, Lemieux, etc.

Defense improved a lot during the mid and late '80s, and early '90s....even more so than the league scoring numbers indicate.

There was continuously more organized defense through the 2nd half of the '80s....there were also increasingly better players....so, there essentially was a conflict going on between better (offensive) players and better defense. So defense was sometimes improving a lot, even when goals-against wasn't decreasing a lot.