Post-Game Talk: Nice of You To Show Up For 20 Minutes Leafs Win 6-3

[Drivesaitl]

meanwhile the Kings last 5 games:

Ducks
Flames
Ducks
Wild
Hawks

about as soft as it gets

The wild are soft now because the Kings drub them? Every other team including us has been having trouble with this soft club. In anycase all teams get relatively same balance of opponents through schedule. Its not like some teams just play easy clubs for 82 games, lol. Unlike the Oilers the Kings have had substantial injury problems. The Oilers have had no appreciable man games lost. Very little anyway. Not one of our core players or key players has been out long.

 

[guymez]

Adding at the top will alienate Kane and drai more. They already have the top 6 pieces.

Kane has been garbage for a while now.
Him bitching isnt going to change that...playing smarter will.

This is actually just straight up not true.


View attachment 840926

High danger chances - the big circles - were 8-6 for Toronto after 40 minutes. You'll notice that total scoring chances were actually 20-18 for Edmonton.

Really we had a bad road first period, and then had Skinner lay an egg in the third.

View attachment 840928

This is where these stats fail. They cant and dont take nuance into acccount...a blocked shot...a contested shot...a shot put wide...a shot slammed into the goalies pads at close range...etc. these are all considered scoring chances and many of them HDSC. In large part they are on par with an open uncontested shot in the slot which is what the Oilers were giving up.

To go by these stats in isolation (without actually watching) is a fools game.

 

[iCanada]

Kane has been garbage for a while now.
Him bitching isnt going to change that...playing smarter will.


This is where these stats fail. They cant and dont take nuance into acccount...a blocked shot...a shot put wide...a shot slammed into the goalies pads at close range...etc. tehse are all considered scoring chances and many of them HDSC.

To go by these stats in isolation (without actually watching) is a fools game.

You're right - they also don't account for a Goaltender giving up on plays and flat out neglecting to try to make saves, falling over in their crease, or staying below the goal line instead of aggressively cutting off the angle when slow muffin passes are sent out to single opponents with no other options...

 

[K1984]

Anyone around here still pretending that the incredible immaturity of this team is a massive, massive concern.

We can nitpick the lines, nitpick certain personnel decisions, and nitpick the coaching staff all we want, but that’s honestly wasted breath. Am I happy Ceci was in over Stecher? No. Am I happy he threw that patchwork second line together for no logical reason? No. Was that the problem last night? No. Is that why we lost? No, not close.

Here’s the new cadence of how a majority of Oiler games have gone since the new year:

• Start the first 5-10 minutes ok, but don’t shoot, don’t go to the net, don’t do anything that could possibly produce a scoring result. Normally we will piss an early PP into the wind as well

• After that is over, we’ll normally hand momentum to the other team on the heels of a thrown away PP or something else monumentally immature and stupid. Difference being the other team actually does things that result in them scoring goals.

• After this we start floating around and fighting uphill because the other team knows they have us by the balls and they have the work rate advantage.

• If we’re fortunate that we’re tied or within a goal after 2, we usually find a way to win with a 20 min effort. Or if we’re down multiple embark on a faint comeback hope that allows them to save at least a bit of face.

I’m f***ing sick of it. Sick of the trash breakouts, sick of the embarrassing efforts that only seem to be applicable to us at this point in the season as a “contending” team.

Few other things I need to mention:

• I have no idea who is dictating that we basically exclusively force the one timer to Leon on the PP, but if it’s the players then take Leon off the first unit for a bit. To what should be nobodies surprise, the only time we actually got pucks to the net and created chances was when Leon went to the box during the one PP. If they can’t recognize that this isn’t working, then make them recognize it.

• Tired of seeing Connor repeatedly in the frame on goals against lately where he stopped skating and let his guy free. Our rush defense is a f***ing joke, and it would be nice for our Captain to take the lead on actually committing to back checking with a modicum of effort. 3 assists are cool, but nobody will care about those if we’re eliminated in a Game 6 because he couldn’t bring himself to commit defensively.

At this point I’m going to resign myself to the fact that we will probably have to rely on a goaltending run and good timing to win anything. This group is so far off where they need to be mentally to win that I don’t know it’s possible to change in time. That’s if they even recognize an issue, which based on how they react to games like this I question.

 

[guymez]

You're right - they also don't account for a Goaltender giving up on plays and flat out neglecting to try to make saves, falling over in their crease, or staying below the goal line instead of aggressively cutting off the angle when slow muffin passes are sent out to single opponents with no other options...

Yeah...we have been down this road.
Once you are willing to clean the lenses on your anti Skinner glasses than we can have an honest discussion about Skinner.
Is he a top 10 goalie in the League? IMO no he clearly isnt.
Is he good enough to win with...IMO he is.
Its the team in front of Skinner thats the issue here. Its been that way through multiple coahces now but at least under Knoblauch the team has managed to find more defensive consistency and apply more urgency into their game.
So I am hopeful.

 

[Stoneman89]

It's always been a systemic issue coach to coach to coach. Hint, it's not a coaching issue. Holland and Tippett's first objective was identifying goal suppression and team defending as this team's primary need. It continues to be their Achille's Heel masked by the red light going on behind their goaltenders. They've made big strides and we see goaltender results follow accordingly but last night was a colossal system breakdown with terrible decision making (Nurse, Desharnais, Bouchard) and structure ruptures that led to a good team with shooting tendencies to exploit.

Bad habits have crept back into their team's own zone defending. Got caught, found out last night on national tv.

Yup, and they were making the same mistakes the 2 games before, first 2 periods against Buffalo, and another full game against Montreal. But fortunately for them, they can get away with that trash against young, inexperienced and/or less talented clubs.

 

[GOilers88]

Skinner had a bad game, after a run of 7 very good ones.

We can also say he had a bad game without the silly "the team is f***ed with him" narrative rearing it's ugly head. They aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Yup, and they were making the same mistakes the 2 games before, first 2 periods against Buffalo, and another full game against Montreal. But fortunately for them, they can get away with that trash against young, inexperienced and/or less talented clubs.

They keep playing that way against the Knights or Kings and it’s going to be a very short spring.

 

[iCanada]

Yeah...we have been down this road.
Once you are willing to clean the lenses on your anti Skinner glasses than we can have an honest discussion about Skinner.
Is he a top 10 goalie in the League? IMO no he clearly isnt.
Is he good enough to win with...IMO he is.

Ok. So let me see if I understand.

I think Skinner isn't NHL quality. You think he is. All of the relevant stats support my opinion - he is routinely outplayed by every option that we objectively know is a crappy option in both box car stats and advanced stats, and we as a team have low scoring chance against metrics, low shots against metrics, and low GA total...

And that means that I need to take off my Skinner hater glasses?

 

[Stoneman89]

Anyone around here still pretending that the incredible immaturity of this team is a massive, massive concern.

We can nitpick the lines, nitpick certain personnel decisions, and nitpick the coaching staff all we want, but that’s honestly wasted breath. Am I happy Ceci was in over Stecher? No. Am I happy he threw that patchwork second line together for no logical reason? No. Was that the problem last night? No. Is that why we lost? No, not close.

Here’s the new cadence of how a majority of Oiler games have gone since the new year:

• Start the first 5-10 minutes ok, but don’t shoot, don’t go to the net, don’t do anything that could possibly produce a scoring result. Normally we will piss an early PP into the wind as well

• After that is over, we’ll normally hand momentum to the other team on the heels of a thrown away PP or something else monumentally immature and stupid. Difference being the other team actually does things that result in them scoring goals.

• After this we start floating around and fighting uphill because the other team knows they have us by the balls and they have the work rate advantage.

• If we’re fortunate that we’re tied or within a goal after 2, we usually find a way to win with a 20 min effort. Or if we’re down multiple embark on a faint comeback hope that allows them to save at least a bit of face.

I’m f***ing sick of it. Sick of the trash breakouts, sick of the embarrassing efforts that only seem to be applicable to us at this point in the season as a “contending” team.

Few other things I need to mention:

• I have no idea who is dictating that we basically exclusively force the one timer to Leon on the PP, but if it’s the players then take Leon off the first unit for a bit. To what should be nobodies surprise, the only time we actually got pucks to the net and created chances was when Leon went to the box during the one PP. If they can’t recognize that this isn’t working, then make them recognize it.

• Tired of seeing Connor repeatedly in the frame on goals against lately where he stopped skating and let his guy free. Our rush defense is a f***ing joke, and it would be nice for our Captain to take the lead on actually committing to back checking with a modicum of effort. 3 assists are cool, but nobody will care about those if we’re eliminated in a Game 6 because he couldn’t bring himself to commit defensively.

At this point I’m going to resign myself to the fact that we will probably have to rely on a goaltending run and good timing to win anything. This group is so far off where they need to be mentally to win that I don’t know it’s possible to change in time. That’s if they even recognize an issue, which based on how they react to games like this I question.

Interesting that the 2nd PP unit seems to have some success despite hardly getting any time. They do it differently with Perry, and Kane up front, and Ekholm shooting the puck relentlessly from the point while the others crash the net.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Interesting that the 2nd PP unit seems to have some success despite hardly getting any time. They do it differently with Perry, and Kane up front, and Ekholm shooting the puck relentlessly from the point while the others crash the net.

They seem to have more of a plan than “pass it to Draisatl”

 

[Stoneman89]

Ok. So let me see if I understand.

I think Skinner isn't NHL quality. You think he is. All of the relevant stats support my opinion - he is routinely outplayed by every option that we objectively know is a crappy option in both box car stats and advanced stats, and we as a team have low scoring chance against metrics, low shots against metrics, and low GA total...

And that means that I need to take off my Skinner hater glasses?

No. It means that when he does play well, and contributes (like he did more or less the prior 7 games), that you might want to begrudgingly acknowledge it and give the man his due in those moments, rather than avoiding this place like the plague or putting in the odd comment talking about everything except the goaltending. Just some balance is all. Typically what fans of a team do, cheering for success for the players and their team.

To wit, Brown has been a disaster this year, but when he's played well, and even for his 2 goals, he got some acknowledgment and credit. Because he's part of the team that we want to have success, and it's who we have right now and who is chosen to play by the coach and org. Honestly, it seems like a lot of times, some of the people on here sit back and actually hope for certain individuals to stumble so they can shout from the mountaintop to everyone that they are right. And then, when it doesn't go that way, the lack of posts and cricket behavior is quite noticeable. Until the next inevitable stumble.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

No. It means that when he does play well, and contributes (like he did more or less the prior 7 games), that you might want to begrudgingly acknowledge it and give the man his due in those moments, rather than avoiding this place like the plague or putting in the odd comment talking about everything except the goaltending. Just some balance is all.

I noticed there were no comments about the play of the man in his avatar.

 

[guymez]

Anyone around here still pretending that the incredible immaturity of this team is a massive, massive concern.

We can nitpick the lines, nitpick certain personnel decisions, and nitpick the coaching staff all we want, but that’s honestly wasted breath. Am I happy Ceci was in over Stecher? No. Am I happy he threw that patchwork second line together for no logical reason? No. Was that the problem last night? No. Is that why we lost? No, not close.

Here’s the new cadence of how a majority of Oiler games have gone since the new year:

• Start the first 5-10 minutes ok, but don’t shoot, don’t go to the net, don’t do anything that could possibly produce a scoring result. Normally we will piss an early PP into the wind as well

• After that is over, we’ll normally hand momentum to the other team on the heels of a thrown away PP or something else monumentally immature and stupid. Difference being the other team actually does things that result in them scoring goals.

• After this we start floating around and fighting uphill because the other team knows they have us by the balls and they have the work rate advantage.

• If we’re fortunate that we’re tied or within a goal after 2, we usually find a way to win with a 20 min effort. Or if we’re down multiple embark on a faint comeback hope that allows them to save at least a bit of face.

I’m f***ing sick of it. Sick of the trash breakouts, sick of the embarrassing efforts that only seem to be applicable to us at this point in the season as a “contending” team.

Few other things I need to mention:

• I have no idea who is dictating that we basically exclusively force the one timer to Leon on the PP, but if it’s the players then take Leon off the first unit for a bit. To what should be nobodies surprise, the only time we actually got pucks to the net and created chances was when Leon went to the box during the one PP. If they can’t recognize that this isn’t working, then make them recognize it.

• Tired of seeing Connor repeatedly in the frame on goals against lately where he stopped skating and let his guy free. Our rush defense is a f***ing joke, and it would be nice for our Captain to take the lead on actually committing to back checking with a modicum of effort. 3 assists are cool, but nobody will care about those if we’re eliminated in a Game 6 because he couldn’t bring himself to commit defensively.

At this point I’m going to resign myself to the fact that we will probably have to rely on a goaltending run and good timing to win anything. This group is so far off where they need to be mentally to win that I don’t know it’s possible to change in time. That’s if they even recognize an issue, which based on how they react to games like this I question.

All very valid points.
IMO its up to Connor and Leon (to a much lesser extent Nurse) to apply the Corry Perry mentality to their game.
No shifts off especially in the defensive zone. That also means properly managing the puck in every zone.
If the leaders do that the rest of the team will follow.

That IMO is the main reason why this team cycles through so many coaches. Coaches who try and prioritize defence. They do that because outscoring mistakes (sloppy defending...sloppy puck management) doesnt win in this League.
Strong defence does.
Vegas didnt win last year because they had more talent...they won because they had 20+ players on the roster who were committed to a system and to playing fully engaged hockey for 60 minutes.
This team has struggled with that since McDavid got here and it still continues to this day.
Thanksfully Knoblauch ahs been the best coach at turning that around but there is clearly more work to do.

 

[Old Boys Club]

They seem to have more of a plan than “pass it to Draisatl”

Certain players on this team seem to have the idea that they're 'above' playing simple pucks and bodies to the net hockey. Certain players seem to think that every goal has to be pretty. And it's not just the top guys, the bottom 6'ers are guilty of this too the majority of the time.

 

[K1984]

Absolutely insane seeing people blaming goaltending for that.

 

[iCanada]

No. It means that when he does play well, and contributes (like he did more or less the prior 7 games), that you might want to begrudgingly acknowledge it and give the man his due in those moments, rather than avoiding this place like the plague or putting in the odd comment talking about everything except the goaltending. Just some balance is all. Typically what fans of a team do, cheering for success for the players and their team.

To wit, Brown has been a disaster this year, but when he's played well, and even for his 2 goals, he got some acknowledgment and credit. Because he's part of the team that we want to have success, and it's who we have right now and who is chosen to play by the coach and org. Honestly, it seems like a lot of times, some of the people on here sit back and actually hope for certain individuals to stumble so they can shout from the mountaintop to everyone that they are right. And then, when it doesn't go that way, the lack of posts and cricket behavior is quite noticeable. Until the next inevitable stumble.

I almost always acknowledge when Skinner is playing well, it's just there is no fanfare and it's quickly ignored. It also doesn't happen very frequently.

Do you require me to go through my post history and link them to you? Or will you simply shift the goalposts again?

 

[guymez]

Absolutely insane seeing people blaming goaltending for that.

I agree.
Its predominantly the same posters that want to blame goaltending when defence and poor puck management are the issues.

 

[barry halls]

Indi

McMann does have a point though.
Look at it this way...when Knoblauch leads with the McDavid and Draisaitl pairing he is putting together the best line that can be created with this lineup. If the other team shuts down that line (which is exaclty what the Leafs did) then what does Knoblauch follow up with? The gun is empty at that point. There is nothing better.
Thats why I dont like McDrai being a go to line.

Knoblaucb was clearly outcoached in last nights game. I suspect that it wont happen again.
At least I hope it wont.

I agree 100%...29/97/18 is the break-glass-in-case-of-emergency line. To me it shows a lack of confidence in the forward depth (though Knob might say it shows that he IS confident in the other 3 lines and that's why he's ok with stacking the big guns). At this juncture in the season I really wish he would separate Connor and Leon and keep them separated.

I have a theory that the Oilers bottom-6 has been mediocre for years partly because of mindset. The 3rd and 4th line jump over the boards with a mandate of trying to saw-off with the opposition and not get scored on. That's why pretty good players like Holloway, Brown etc. who have shown that they have offensive ability go dry in this lineup. That's what I like about guys like Perry and Gagner (when he's in the lineup): even if they're playing 10-minutes or less per game they play with the belief and intention to produce offense, not "let's just try to not get scored on". The bottom-6 in Colorado and Vegas believe they can score goals and they play with that mindset.

 

[Stoneman89]

I almost always acknowledge when Skinner is playing well, it's just there is no fanfare and it's quickly ignored. It also doesn't happen very frequently.

Do you require me to go through my post history and link them to you? Or will you simply shift the goalposts again?

It would be interesting to see how many times you've acknowledged it in the last 7 games he played. When he has a bad game, you provide about 20 posts about it. How many when there is a good game? When he's had an average save % of over .940 in those games, I'm not sure what you mean by "doesn't happen very frequently."

 

[kevy9999]

Ok. So let me see if I understand.

I think Skinner isn't NHL quality. You think he is. All of the relevant stats support my opinion - he is routinely outplayed by every option that we objectively know is a crappy option in both box car stats and advanced stats, and we as a team have low scoring chance against metrics, low shots against metrics, and low GA total...

And that means that I need to take off my Skinner hater glasses?

Yea you definitely need to take them off lol Skinner is definitely NHL quality lol. The debate is can we go far in playoffs with him. Until he proves it then No. Hope he has an incredible playoffs. But it won't matter if we lack no passion and commitment defensively. And this coach is really starting to bug me.

 

[Stoneman89]

Yea you definitely need to take them off lol Skinner is definitely NHL quality lol. The debate is can we go far in playoffs with him. Until he proves it then No. Hope he has an incredible playoffs. But it won't matter if we lack no passion and commitment defensively. And this coach is really starting to bug me.

Agree with the bolded.

 

[guymez]

I agree 100%...29/97/18 is the break-glass-in-case-of-emergency line. To me it shows a lack of confidence in the forward depth (though Knob might say it shows that he IS confident in the other 3 lines and that's why he's ok with stacking the big guns). At this juncture in the season I really wish he would separate Connor and Leon and keep them separated.

I have a theory that the Oilers bottom-6 has been mediocre for years partly because of mindset. The 3rd and 4th line jump over the boards with a mandate of trying to saw-off with the opposition and not get scored on. That's why pretty good players like Holloway, Brown etc. who have shown that they have offensive ability go dry in this lineup. That's what I like about guys like Perry and Gagner (when he's in the lineup): even if they're playing 10-minutes or less per game they play with the belief and intention to produce offense, not "let's just try to not get scored on". The bottom-6 in Colorado and Vegas believe they can score goals and they play with that mindset.

Good points. I really like the your phrasing..."break glass for emergency" line.
Thats exactly what it should be.
Regarding your theory on the bottom 6...I think thats totally valid. I think it might be due to having a couple of superstars on the team. Its obviously wonderful to have that but in a way it makes the team much harder to coach. The bottom 6 knows that if they break even the team likely wins.
The thing is its much tougher to get full buy in (push the play) when you actually do have the ability to outscore your mistakes.
In terms of the Pacific teams...all the other playoff teams MUST play a a fully enageged 60 minutes and stick to their system to win. The reason for that is that they dont have a nuclear weapon at their disposal. The Oilers are the exception. As far as the playoffs are concerned a fully engaged 20 man buy in and strong disciplined play will win out over a team that has it in their mind that their stars can continue to win them games.
If this was Basketballl it wouldnt be as much of an issue.

 

[iCanada]

It would be interesting to see how many times you've acknowledged it in the last 7 games he played. When he has a bad game, you provide about 20 posts about it. How many when there is a good game? When he's had an average save % of over .940 in those games, I'm not sure what you mean by "doesn't happen very frequently."

I post about it more when he plays bad - but a large part of that is I have to defend myself from 10 people saying nothing is ever his fault.

If I have time between the errands I have to run, the gym, and the start of the next game I might comb through. In the mean time - feel free to browse for yourself.

Edit: seems like I'm the mean time every post I made in a three year window before the Avs game isn't on the server.

In any case - I think maybe the crux of it is that my definition of good Goaltending is different than a lot of people. It's let's about your save percentage or GAA for me and more about how many big saves a guy makes - I don't care if you let in 5 if most Goaltenders would let in 6. Skinner is objectively pretty bad at that metric.

 

[guymez]

I post about it more when he plays bad - but a large part of that is I have to defend myself from 10 people saying nothing is ever his fault.

If I have time between the errands I have to run, the gym, and the start of the next game I might comb through. In the mean time - feel free to browse for yourself.

As far as I can tell no one in here is saying that. Myself included.

What I am (and many others are) saying is that unless this team becomes fully committed to defence, not floating on D (like we witnessed multiple times in last nights game from Connor, Draisaitl and Nurse) and better puck management (are you listening Bouchard?) they arent going to win jack in the playoffs.
A top 5 goalie doesnt fix that...he only temporarily covers it up.
I am interested in an actual solution and although this team has some holes they still have the capability of beating any team in the League if they can make a habit of playing a strong and responsible systems game.