Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer than Wayne Gretzky

[MadLuke]

The league is the KHL, Player A is Nigel Dawes, and Player B is Ilya Kovalchuk. Of course Kovalchuk blows Dawes away in their NHL careers, overlapping and otherwise.

And we can even look at the same player in the same league.

If the nhl would have been playing hockey like it was playing hockey and with the same amount of talent than in 2002-2003-2004, what would Bill Guerin and Glenn Murray goalscoring career look like, Mike Knuble ?

Maybe nothing, but maybe some are better at scoring in at certain league-style than in other league-style and if true what the actual number of goal they scored tell us ? Not nothing obviously, but it cannot close the question, Murray outscoring Sakic-Kovalchuck, was it a bit the result of the league around that time...

 

[Killer Orcas]

Imagine having both Bossy and 99 apparently is was brought up as Kings tried to get Bossy to come to LA. Found this nugget today must say never heard it before.

Islanders great Mike Bossy reveals he almost teamed up with Wayne Gretzky

So I was talking on Friday to Mike Bossy — for more than 40 years, always one of the distinct pleasures of having this job — about the fabled Guy Lafleur, who had successful quadruple bypass surger…

nypost.com

 

[JackSlater]

Maybe nothing, but maybe some are better at scoring in at certain league-style than in other league-style and if true what the actual number of goal they scored tell us ? Not nothing obviously, but it cannot close the question, Murray outscoring Sakic-Kovalchuck

To me that's the key question in this thread. Gretzky was a better goal scorer than Bossy was in the early to mid 1980s environment. I don't know that he would be in every environment or even most environments. I don't buy that Gretzky being the better goal scorer in that environment, when both were elite, and then fading quite a bit later definitively proves he was the overall better goal scorer. I have an easier time seeing a scorer like Bossy translating more.

To be fair to Gretzky though, he was trying to score in the era he played in, not past or future eras, and he did it exceptionally well.

 

[MadLuke]

To be fair to Gretzky though,

Also hard to say with him, he would not find a way regardless and trained-worked on what it would have needed in a different one, to be at least at the very top in any era during his very peak, automatic that he dominates his peer like that in the 06... not sure.

 

[Overrated]

It's odd for someone to even make this thread (let alone bump it again) when both players played in the same era and had their prime in the same seasons as well and Gretzky outscored Bossy by quite a large margin. I mean if Bossy did better in tight situations maybe it could be said he was a better clutch player? I don't know. Statistically it's not close at all. A weird angle. I think Lemieux was a better goal scorer though.

 

[MadLuke]

It's odd for someone to even make this thread when both players played in the same era and had their prime in the same seasons as well and Gretzky outscored Bossy by quite a large margin.

Yes, but it goes into an explanation of why.

Would you feel the same for someone arguing Kovalchuck was a better goal scorer than Nigel Dawes ?

Both played in the same league at the same time

Dawes / Kovi

2013: 20 / 18
2014: 26 / 16
2015: 32 / 25
2016: 31 / 16
2017: 36 / 32
2018: 35 / 31

That do not sound reasonable at first glance, Dawes outscore him every season, sometime almost double him. So no debate is possible, Nigel Dawes was a better hockey goalscorer than Ilya Kovalchuk ?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Yes, but it goes into an explanation of why.

Would you feel the same for someone arguing Kovalchuck was a better goal scorer than Nigel Dawes ?

Both played in the same league at the same time

Dawes / Kovi

2013: 20 / 18
2014: 26 / 16
2015: 32 / 25
2016: 31 / 16
2017: 36 / 32
2018: 35 / 31

That do not sound reasonable at first glance, Dawes outscore him every season, sometime almost double him. So no debate is possible, Nigel Dawes was a better hockey goalscorer than Ilya Kovalchuk ?

What is interesting about Kovalchuk's KHL time is that his ratio of Goals to Assists was much more assist heavy than his NHL days.

NHL: 0.478 GPG; 0.448 APG
KHL: 0.440 GPG; 0.614 APG

Usage/deployment/evolving with age all play a role of course, but it's rather stark. Be interesting what a prime Kovalchuk (in terms of his highest nHL goal scoring years) would have done in the KHL at the time.

 

[Overrated]

Yes, but it goes into an explanation of why.

Would you feel the same for someone arguing Kovalchuck was a better goal scorer than Nigel Dawes ?

Both played in the same league at the same time

Dawes / Kovi

2013: 20 / 18
2014: 26 / 16
2015: 32 / 25
2016: 31 / 16
2017: 36 / 32
2018: 35 / 31

That do not sound reasonable at first glance, Dawes outscore him every season, sometime almost double him. So no debate is possible, Nigel Dawes was a better hockey goalscorer than Ilya Kovalchuk ?

I have never seen any of these KHL games and don't know how exactly was he deployed, how seriously he took the games etc. KHL is like a glorified minor league. When both were in the NHL when they were in their early mid 20s Kovalchuk did much better. It's like looking at Yakushev's stint in Austria and concluding Gureyev was a better goalscorer and a bunch of minor league Canadians not far behind.

 

[Overrated]

I mean I maybe get the logic of stat padding against weak teams vs scoring when it matters. Has anybody isolated the games against let's say above .500 teams? Or .700 ones excluding ties? Does Gretzky turn out much worse? I doubt it. Looking at playoff only games isn't fair. It's a very limited sample especially when isolating for the best few seasons. Back then even weaker teams made the playoffs anyways.

I am pretty sure it's sample issue not to mention Gretzky was never deployed as a pure goalscorer.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yes, but it goes into an explanation of why.

Would you feel the same for someone arguing Kovalchuck was a better goal scorer than Nigel Dawes ?

Both played in the same league at the same time

Dawes / Kovi

2013: 20 / 18
2014: 26 / 16
2015: 32 / 25
2016: 31 / 16
2017: 36 / 32
2018: 35 / 31

That do not sound reasonable at first glance, Dawes outscore him every season, sometime almost double him. So no debate is possible, Nigel Dawes was a better hockey goalscorer than Ilya Kovalchuk ?

This is a really good point about...a lot of stuff I think. You have a lot of factors to consider here, especially because you're dealing with a not-the-best-league-in-the-world, when normally we are talking about the highest level.

And I'll sound like a broken record here, but this is why the process is so important and defining the scalability or transferability of a player is because you get into situations - especially at a lower level - like this..

So let's just forget team tactics and deployment for a moment...not to dismiss them. I mean, clearly the Islanders and Oilers were not playing the same game in 1982 or whatever, right? But let's put that aside because that should be fairly straightforward when you watch a game.

One really interesting thing about scouting players at a lower level than the best level available to the player (i.e. a player playing Minnesota High School instead of USHL or playing OJHL instead of OHL or whatever) is that not only are you looking for desirable skills and traits, but you have to be mindful of "scalable dominance" vs "exploitative dominance", as I call it/them.

So, let's put that aside because I could speak on that for a while...let's go back to Dawes and Kovalchuk. And again, let's forget team tactics, let's forget that the KHL is a pretty unbalanced league that has a lot of dramatic ebb and flow to it (hell, you should see the junior games...wild stuff down there haha) and just focus on the players.

Kovalchuk is voluntarily playing down a level. Dawes is fighting up. Kovalchuk was a near HHOF level NHL player. Nigel Dawes was a hyperspeed zilch as a depth forward.

Dawes left the AHL to fight up to and in the KHL as a foreign player trying to earn a living. Kovalchuk, as a native, is vacationing in this league haha - now I don't want to put to fine of a point on that...but you ever play hockey at a lower level than you should be at? What's your game look like? Right. You're playing on your heels, you're over-passing, etc.

Dawes played with pace and lacked vision. He's a fairly traditional version of what led to DPE 2.0 - it wasn't goons. It was Dawes. Guys that were just skating around at a million miles per hour with no particular place to go.

So, you set that player down in bigger rink in a slower paced league that actually favors some "negative" odd man rushes (i.e. you're more likely to see a 1 on 3 or 2 on 3 type of attempt in the Russian leagues than the NHL) and his pace gets him to the net enough to finish in close. He's not untalented.

Kovalchuk is smart enough to be able to sit back and pass it around and still be a positive. Also...let's not lose sight of the fact that Kovalchuk can score whenever he wants with his shot from mid-range or distance. That's not something Dawes can do usually. Kovalchuk has deception in his game, so he can hide his intent. Dawes, less so.

Watching the players play, there's no question that Kovalchuk is the better scorer. He's not exploiting his level of play to do it. Dawes is fighting a little bit more uphill, so he's not forgoing anything that he can get (which is a sentence putting him down a little more than he deserves, but so it goes...).

 

[MadLuke]

I mean I maybe get the logic of stat padding against weak teams vs scoring when it matters. Has anybody isolated the games against let's say above .500 teams? Or .700 ones excluding ties? Does Gretzky turn out much worse? I doubt it. Looking at playoff only games isn't fair. It's a very limited sample especially when isolating for the best few seasons. Back then even weaker teams made the playoffs anyways.

I am pretty sure it's sample issue not to mention Gretzky was never deployed as a pure goalscorer.

From memory that what prompted early in this thread:

Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer than Wayne Gretzky

I've posted on this in a couple of threads before, and I thought I'd put it out there for discussion. When it comes to discussing the greatest goalscorers, I've often seen Bossy dismissed in this forum because Gretzky was a better goal scorer in their era. I don't think that's true at all -- I...

forums.hfboards.com

Bossy outscored a little bit Gretzky when playing against strong team while being outscored against weak opposition, if you exclude shorthanded and empty net...

Again from memory, my conclusion from those numbers was that prime Bossy in the playoff, against good team could be argued to be a similar goal scorer than Gretzky, but being close in those while Gretzky was far ahead in other scenario you can give it to Gretzky.

Take playoff both scored at .75 gpg (while Bossy had to play in the cup final every year that stretch), that a good argument to say he was as good to score in the playoff...

 

[MadLuke]

This is a really good point about...a lot of stuff I think. You have a lot of factors to consider here, especially because you're dealing with a not-the-best-league-in-the-world, when normally we are talking about the highest level.

I think Kovalchuck was not giving it all in the KHL and if you are not Mario Lemieux, you are not out of its world good enough to outscore people without giving a really big effort, see Jagr in the Washington years, those super elite player can still have good numbers but will not dominate the really good that give it all.

And even purely in the nhl, just over different time and style of play.

When we look at the deepest of the dpe went, say 2002-2003-2004:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Glen Murray is third in goal scored in that stretch, Tkachuck-Guerin #9

Murray played full time in the nhl since 1994, not sure he ever finished top 20 in goals before.

All of the suddens:
Goals

2001-02 NHL 41 (2nd)

2002-03 NHL 44 (5th)

Guerin that also played forever:
Goals

2000-01 NHL 40 (10th)

2001-02 NHL 41 (2nd)

2003-04 NHL 34 (9th)

Really big guy can peak later on, minutes with Joe Thornton that was maybe underrated a bit.

Could part of it be what the nhl looked like at the time, does it exist a different set of ice dimension, strategy, rules, referee, culture in which Kovalchuck, Brière, Sakic, St-Louis-Kovalev-Havlat outscore them during that time (or just on which team that list of players play on) or we do not have to think, they played in the same league at the same time, Murray-Guerin outscore them, question answered....

For all the talk about how situational save percentage for goaltenders is, playing with Joe Thornton in 2002-2003-2004 for a Muray-Guerin instead of Sergei Zholtok in 2024... is maybe much bigger than the difference between 95% of the non-extreme (Hitchcock-Julien coached team) team a goaltender play on.

 

[Overrated]

From memory that what prompted early in this thread:

Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer than Wayne Gretzky

I've posted on this in a couple of threads before, and I thought I'd put it out there for discussion. When it comes to discussing the greatest goalscorers, I've often seen Bossy dismissed in this forum because Gretzky was a better goal scorer in their era. I don't think that's true at all -- I...

forums.hfboards.com

Bossy outscored a little bit Gretzky when playing against strong team while being outscored against weak opposition, if you exclude shorthanded and empty net...

Again from memory, my conclusion from those numbers was that prime Bossy in the playoff, against good team could be argued to be a similar goal scorer than Gretzky, but being close in those while Gretzky was far ahead in other scenario you can give it to Gretzky.

Take playoff both scored at .75 gpg (while Bossy had to play in the cup final every year that stretch), that a good argument to say he was as good to score in the playoff...

What if we isolate the 4 best goalscoring seasons of Gretzky? That is not a small sample. His peak goalscoring is just a lot better. Since about 1985 Gretzky's numbers start shifting more into assists and playmaking. It just seems to me that when he was out to score goals he scored a lot more. Reminds me a bit of Messi vs CR7 though Gretzky at his peak was so far ahead in goalscoring it seems even more ridiculous.

 

[MadLuke]

4 best goalscoring seasons of Gretzky?

If we go with (fair enough) Gretzky 4 best stretch in the playoff it goes more around .79 to .75

 

[Overrated]

If we go with (fair enough) Gretzky 4 best stretch in the playoff it goes more around .79 to .75

But if we include the regular season it turns out a lot worse for Bossy.

 

[MadLuke]

But if we include the regular season it turns out a lot worse for Bossy.

Not if you split against good and bad team (from memory), the very premise of the talk.

They both played in the canada cup in 1981:

1981 Canada Cup - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bossy scored 8 to Gretzky 5.

The conversation was not around was Gretzky an hockey player that wound end with more goal at the end of season in the early 80s than Bossy, that trivial to say yes we know for a fact what happen in that scenario.

It was more, put both of them in the packed 06 or for a playoff run, which would score more goals, and if the answer is Bossy would that make him the better goal scorer ? Closer that some could think at first (it was not clear that he was better, but the argument that he was close to him in close high quality defensive game was not badly made)

 

[Overrated]

Not if you split against good and bad team (from memory), the very premise of the talk.

They both played in the canada cup in 1981:

1981 Canada Cup - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bossy scored 8 to Gretzky 5.

The conversation was not around was Gretzky an hockey player that wound end with more goal at the end of season in the earlys 80s than Gretzky, that trivial to say no.

It was more, put both of them in the packed 06 or for a playoff run, which would score more goals ? Closer that some could think at first (it was not clear that he was better, but the argument that he was close to him in close high quality defensive game was not badly made)

Alright let's isolate Gretzky vs Bossy against .700 or better teams in the regular season (without ties). It would be interesting to see how well they fared. Then we can add the number to the play-off number and the CC number.

 

[Overrated]

So between 81/82 and 84/85 Gretzky scored
7 goals in 11 games against the Islanders
8 goals in 12 games against the Canadiens
4 goals in 11 games against the Bruins
13 goals in 11 games against the Flyers
32 in 45 games - 0.71

Between 79/80 and 82/83 Bossy scored
6 goals in 13 games against the Sabres
9 goals in 13 games against the Canadiens
11 goals in 14 games against the Bruins
11 goals in 22 games against the Flyers
37 in 62 games - 0.60

Didn't really go into depth on a per season basis but these were the best teams in the late 70s early 80s right?

 

[WarriorofTime]

I think Kovalchuck was not giving it all in the KHL and if you are not Mario Lemieux, you are not out of its world good enough to outscore people without giving a really big effort, see Jagr in the Washington years, those super elite player can still have good numbers but will not dominate the really good that give it all.

Tough to really say, 2014-15 St. Petersburg is a very loaded team by KHL standards You have Panarin who is a year away from coming to the NHL and being very good, top line level player right off the bat (finishing 9th in NHL scoring). You also have Dadonov, Shipachyov, Thoreson, Cervenka, Tikhonov.

Panarin ends the year as team leader with 62 points in 54 games. Kovalchuk a bit behind with 55 points in 54 games, and then Shipachyov with a better PPG than Kovalchuk with 54 points in 49 games, and Dadonov at 46 games in 53 games. Dadonov had already been in NHL and returned, and was a few years away from going back to NHL but sticking around as a pretty good player (still playing today). Shipachyov is a future KHL MVP, 1st team performer just a couple years later, signs with Vegas as an expansion team, they try to send him down after 3 games, he goes back to KHL and that's it as far N.A. goes.

Panarin is young, so tough to say how much better he gets between 2014-15 and 2015-16. Then Kovalchuk is doing pretty good there with him when they play on the same team even though Kovalchuk is aging and already left the NHL. So who is to say how much is he trying? Kovalchuk gives 5 good seasons in the KHL and then is able to come back to NHL for a couple more seasons. Likely hard to do if he was just checked out into his 30s at that point, but maybe he was also talented enough to do so?

 

[Overrated]

Bossy seemed to have scored a bit more in the SC playoff finals + semis + quarters though. Also scored more in the CC. I guess it's somewhat close.

Gretzky on the other hand was less reliant on PP goals. In terms of GWG it was close.

 

[overpass]

Also this "set defences" thing is nonsense that lumps in 5-on-4 PP goals with 5-on-5 ES goals to give them more weight.

You can see what I mean by "set defences" if you watch the goals each of them score. It's very far from nonsense. Here are the 7 goals Gretzky scored against the Flyers in the 1985 Stanley Cup Finals, and the 9 goals Bossy scored against the Bruins in the 1983 Conference Finals.

Gretzky

Game 2, 4-on-4, Gretzky (1) from Coffey

âï¸ 1985 finals game 2 - Gretzky (1) (4-on-4)

11 seconds · Clipped by JW · Original video "1985 Stanley Cup Final Edmonton Oilers vs Philadelphia Flyers Game 2" by NHL Stanley Cup finals!

youtube.com

Game 3, 4-on-4, Gretzky (2) from Kurri and Coffey

âï¸ 1985 Finals Game 3 - Gretzky (2) (4-on-4)

6 seconds · Clipped by JW · Original video "Wayne Gretzky Hat Trick vs Flyers Game 3 1985 Stanley Cup Finals" by Thisday Inhockeyhistory

youtube.com

Game 3, 4-on-4, Gretzky (3) from Coffey and Huddy

âï¸ 1985 Finals Game 3 - Gretzky (3) (4-on-4)

5 seconds · Clipped by JW · Original video "Wayne Gretzky Hat Trick vs Flyers Game 3 1985 Stanley Cup Finals" by Thisday Inhockeyhistory

youtube.com

Game 3, 4-on-4, Gretzky (4) from Messier and Coffey

âï¸ 1985 Finals Game 3 - Gretzky (4) (4-on-4)

8 seconds · Clipped by JW · Original video "Wayne Gretzky Hat Trick vs Flyers Game 3 1985 Stanley Cup Finals" by Thisday Inhockeyhistory

youtube.com

Game 4, 5-on-4, Gretzky (5) from Coffey and Huddy

âï¸ 1985 Finals Game 4 - Gretzky (5) (5-on-4)

15 seconds · Clipped by JW · Original video "1985 Stanley Cup Final Edmonton Oilers vs Philadelphia Flyers Game 4" by NHL Stanley Cup finals!

youtube.com

Game 4, 5-on-4, Gretzky (6) from Messier and Anderson

âï¸ 1985 Finals Game 4 - Gretzky (6) (5-on-4)

9 seconds · Clipped by JW · Original video "1985 Stanley Cup Final Edmonton Oilers vs Philadelphia Flyers Game 4" by NHL Stanley Cup finals!

youtube.com

Game 5, 4-on-4, Gretzky (7) from Kurri and Coffey

âï¸ 1985 Finals Game 5 - Gretzky (7)

7 seconds · Clipped by JW · Original video "1985 Stanley Cup Final Edmonton Oilers vs Philadelphia Flyers Game 5" by NHL Stanley Cup finals!

youtube.com

Notes:

• 5 of Gretzky's goals were scored at 4-on-4, 2 were scored at 5-on-4, and none were scored on 5-on-5. While the series did have a lot of 4-on-4 time - about 40 minutes of 4-on-4 time in 5 games - most of the games were still played at 5-on-5, and the Flyers allowed very few goals in those times, including none to Gretzky
• Gretzky scored all 7 goals within a stick's reach of the net, with nobody on him
• Gretzky was exceptional at getting lost by skating wide or trailing behind and then showing up with nobody on him. This was among his top goal-scoring attributes and you can see him demonstrate it in several of these goals. He also scored a couple of goals where he was just quicker to find a rebound than anyone else. But his ability to show up unmarked right in front of the net doesn't seem to have generated any goals at 5-on-5 in this series.
• Philly's defensive coverage was terrible at 4-on-4. It looks like they were playing man and then the Oilers just used their high speed skating and passing to pull the defence away from the net and open it up for Gretzky to tap it in. Overall they were a good defensive team but maybe they weren't prepared well enough for 4-on-4 play.
• There were several goals where the Philly RD - Crossman or Eriksson - looked pretty bad. Their best defensive RD, Brad McCrimmon, was out for the playoffs with a separated shoulder. Maybe they really missed McCrimmon in this series.
• Gretzky played with Kurri-Coffey-Huddy on all the 4-on-4 goals, except for one where it was Messier-Coffey-Huddy. A very strong unit. Coffey, Kurri, and Messier made some great high-speed, skilled plays to scramble the defence and open things up.
• All of the 4-on-4 goals were scored with at least one defender away from the net. This is what I mean by saying 4-on-4 is a more chaotic situation where the defence isn't set.
• It would be something to see Gretzky playing today with 3-on-3 OT and extended periods with a goalie pulled.

Bossy

Game 1, 5-on-4, from Jonsson and Potvin

âï¸ 1983 Semifinals NYI BOS Game 1 - Bossy (1) (5-on-4)

11 seconds · Clipped by JW · Original video "Game 1 1983 Wales Conference Final Islanders at Bruins (WOR-TV New York Broadcast)" by IslandersPride

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Game 3, 5-on-4, from Trottier and Jonsson

âï¸ 1983 Semifinals NYI BOS Game 3 - Bossy (2) (5-on-4)

15 seconds · Clipped by JW · Original video "Game 3 1983 Wales Conference Final Bruins at Islanders Full HD SportsChannel New York Broadcast" by IslandersPride

youtube.com

Game 4, 5-on-5, from Kallur and Trottier

âï¸ 1983 Semifinals NYI BOS Game 4 - Bossy (3) (5-on-5)

9 seconds · Clipped by JW · Original video "Game 4 1983 Wales Conference Final Bruins at Islanders SportsChannel New York feed" by IslandersPride

youtube.com

Game 4, 5-on-5, from Jonsson

âï¸ 1983 Semifinals NYI BOS Game 4 - Bossy (4) (5-on-5)

10 seconds · Clipped by JW · Original video "Game 4 1983 Wales Conference Final Bruins at Islanders SportsChannel New York feed" by IslandersPride

youtube.com

Game 4, 5-on-4, from Potvin

âï¸ 1983 Semifinals NYI BOS Game 4 - Bossy (5) (5-on-4)

10 seconds · Clipped by JW · Original video "Game 4 1983 Wales Conference Final Bruins at Islanders SportsChannel New York feed" by IslandersPride

youtube.com

Game 6, 5-on-4, from Trottier and Persson

âï¸ 1983 Semifinals NYI BOS Game 6 - Bossy (6) (5-on-4)

12 seconds · Clipped by JW · Original video "HD Game 6 1983 Wales Conference Final Bruins at Islanders CBC Hockey Night in Canada NHLN full" by IslandersPride

youtube.com

Game 6, 5-on-5, unassisted

âï¸ 1983 Semifinals NYI BOS Game 6 - Bossy (7) (5-on-5)

10 seconds · Clipped by JW · Original video "HD Game 6 1983 Wales Conference Final Bruins at Islanders CBC Hockey Night in Canada NHLN full" by IslandersPride

youtube.com

Game 6, 4-on-4, from Trottier

âï¸ 1983 Semifinals NYI BOS Game 6 - Bossy (8) (5-on-5)

10 seconds · Clipped by JW · Original video "HD Game 6 1983 Wales Conference Final Bruins at Islanders CBC Hockey Night in Canada NHLN full" by IslandersPride

youtube.com

Game 6, 5-on-5, from Kallur and Trottier

âï¸ 1983 Semifinal NYI BOS Game 6 - Bossy (9) (5-on-5)

10 seconds · Clipped by JW · Original video "HD Game 6 1983 Wales Conference Final Bruins at Islanders CBC Hockey Night in Canada NHLN full" by IslandersPride

youtube.com

Notes:

• 4 of Bossy's goals were scored at 5-on-5, 4 were scored at 5-on-4, and 1 was scored at 4-on-4
• At least 6 of Bossy's goals were scored farther from the net than any of Gretzky's goals
• One of Bossy's PP goals in Game 6 was a gift by Peeters, who just gave it away to Trottier behind the net and Bossy was there for the tap-in.
• Why did I classify 5-on-4 as a set defence? Take a look at Bossy's first two goals. Boston's players are set up in the penalty kill box in the zone, and both times when Bossy shoots, both defencemen are guarding the net/crease, not out of position chasing as in Gretzky's 4-on-4 goals. You could even say that his PP goal from Game 4 was against a set defence - Boston's PKers were waiting at the defensive blueline to break up the rush, and Potvin and Bossy just executed the long pass perfectly to beat them and get Bossy in alone.
• Similarly, to go back to Gretzky, his goal where the defence was most set was not a 4-on-4 goal, it was one of his 5-on-4 goals, where the Flyers were all in their PK box and Gretzky was just quicker than Crossman to react to the rebound.
• Like Gretzky, Bossy was known for his ability to get open. But he didn't just float around in the middle of the ice like a Dany Heatley. He was fully engaged in the corners and along the boards, and then headed to find space in the slot for the one-timer when his teammate got possession.
• What an incredible release Bossy had. On his second and fourth goals of the series, the shot is off and the puck's in the net before you know it, while the camera's still moving back to Bossy.

So Bossy and Gretzky were different as goal-scorers. What does it mean? I would suggest that Gretzky's goals more frequently came after defensive breakdowns. On the other hand, you could play good defence against Bossy and he could still beat you with his incredible shot and release. While Gretzky had an unusual ability to force and anticipate defensive breakdowns, he was still more reliant on his opponent making a mistake than Bossy. As a result, Bossy's goal-scoring ability should translate more consistently than Gretzky's to higher level hockey. And in fact it did, enough that Gretzky's edge in peak regular season goal scoring disappears when you look at playoffs, Canada Cups, or performance against top teams.

While this is getting into the realm of speculation, it also seems likely that Bossy's style of goal-scoring would translate more consistently than Gretzky's to lower-scoring, more defensive eras of NHL hockey.

 

[Michael Farkas]

So Bossy and Gretzky were different as goal-scorers. What does it mean? I would suggest that Gretzky's goals more frequently came after defensive breakdowns. On the other hand, you could play good defence against Bossy and he could still beat you with his incredible shot and release.

Quality summation of the difference between technical/physical arc goal-scoring vs. mental arc goal-scoring.

Excellent post as a whole. Post of the month.

 

[JackSlater]

So Bossy and Gretzky were different as goal-scorers. What does it mean? I would suggest that Gretzky's goals more frequently came after defensive breakdowns. On the other hand, you could play good defence against Bossy and he could still beat you with his incredible shot and release. While Gretzky had an unusual ability to force and anticipate defensive breakdowns, he was still more reliant on his opponent making a mistake than Bossy. As a result, Bossy's goal-scoring ability should translate more consistently than Gretzky's to higher level hockey. And in fact it did, enough that Gretzky's edge in peak regular season goal scoring disappears when you look at playoffs, Canada Cups, or performance against top teams.

While this is getting into the realm of speculation, it also seems likely that Bossy's style of goal-scoring would translate more consistently than Gretzky's to lower-scoring, more defensive eras of NHL hockey.

I lean toward thinking that this is at least part of why Bowman ranked Gretzky only fifth on his list of Canadian players. Right or wrong, coaches try to control as much as they can. A coach could easily be more afraid of Lemieux, even though Gretzky scored more, because Lemieux was probably better at scoring even when the defence did everything more or less right. Even Richard ranking really highly could reflect that.

 

[blogofmike]

You can see what I mean by "set defences" if you watch the goals each of them score. It's very far from nonsense. Here are the 7 goals Gretzky scored against the Flyers in the 1985 Stanley Cup Finals, and the 9 goals Bossy scored against the Bruins in the 1983 Conference Finals.

Gretzky



Notes:

• 5 of Gretzky's goals were scored at 4-on-4, 2 were scored at 5-on-4, and none were scored on 5-on-5. While the series did have a lot of 4-on-4 time - about 40 minutes of 4-on-4 time in 5 games - most of the games were still played at 5-on-5, and the Flyers allowed very few goals in those times, including none to Gretzky
• Gretzky scored all 7 goals within a stick's reach of the net, with nobody on him
• Gretzky was exceptional at getting lost by skating wide or trailing behind and then showing up with nobody on him. This was among his top goal-scoring attributes and you can see him demonstrate it in several of these goals. He also scored a couple of goals where he was just quicker to find a rebound than anyone else. But his ability to show up unmarked right in front of the net doesn't seem to have generated any goals at 5-on-5 in this series.
• Philly's defensive coverage was terrible at 4-on-4. It looks like they were playing man and then the Oilers just used their high speed skating and passing to pull the defence away from the net and open it up for Gretzky to tap it in. Overall they were a good defensive team but maybe they weren't prepared well enough for 4-on-4 play.
• There were several goals where the Philly RD - Crossman or Eriksson - looked pretty bad. Their best defensive RD, Brad McCrimmon, was out for the playoffs with a separated shoulder. Maybe they really missed McCrimmon in this series.
• Gretzky played with Kurri-Coffey-Huddy on all the 4-on-4 goals, except for one where it was Messier-Coffey-Huddy. A very strong unit. Coffey, Kurri, and Messier made some great high-speed, skilled plays to scramble the defence and open things up.
• All of the 4-on-4 goals were scored with at least one defender away from the net. This is what I mean by saying 4-on-4 is a more chaotic situation where the defence isn't set.
• It would be something to see Gretzky playing today with 3-on-3 OT and extended periods with a goalie pulled.

Bossy



Notes:

• 4 of Bossy's goals were scored at 5-on-5, 4 were scored at 5-on-4, and 1 was scored at 4-on-4
• At least 6 of Bossy's goals were scored farther from the net than any of Gretzky's goals
• One of Bossy's PP goals in Game 6 was a gift by Peeters, who just gave it away to Trottier behind the net and Bossy was there for the tap-in.
• Why did I classify 5-on-4 as a set defence? Take a look at Bossy's first two goals. Boston's players are set up in the penalty kill box in the zone, and both times when Bossy shoots, both defencemen are guarding the net/crease, not out of position chasing as in Gretzky's 4-on-4 goals. You could even say that his PP goal from Game 4 was against a set defence - Boston's PKers were waiting at the defensive blueline to break up the rush, and Potvin and Bossy just executed the long pass perfectly to beat them and get Bossy in alone.
• Similarly, to go back to Gretzky, his goal where the defence was most set was not a 4-on-4 goal, it was one of his 5-on-4 goals, where the Flyers were all in their PK box and Gretzky was just quicker than Crossman to react to the rebound.
• Like Gretzky, Bossy was known for his ability to get open. But he didn't just float around in the middle of the ice like a Dany Heatley. He was fully engaged in the corners and along the boards, and then headed to find space in the slot for the one-timer when his teammate got possession.
• What an incredible release Bossy had. On his second and fourth goals of the series, the shot is off and the puck's in the net before you know it, while the camera's still moving back to Bossy.

So Bossy and Gretzky were different as goal-scorers. What does it mean? I would suggest that Gretzky's goals more frequently came after defensive breakdowns. On the other hand, you could play good defence against Bossy and he could still beat you with his incredible shot and release. While Gretzky had an unusual ability to force and anticipate defensive breakdowns, he was still more reliant on his opponent making a mistake than Bossy. As a result, Bossy's goal-scoring ability should translate more consistently than Gretzky's to higher level hockey. And in fact it did, enough that Gretzky's edge in peak regular season goal scoring disappears when you look at playoffs, Canada Cups, or performance against top teams.

While this is getting into the realm of speculation, it also seems likely that Bossy's style of goal-scoring would translate more consistently than Gretzky's to lower-scoring, more defensive eras of NHL hockey.

First off, well done on doing the work in getting clips for the post.

As for "On the other hand, you could play good defence against Bossy and he could still beat you with his incredible shot and release" you're going to have to show me the ones where the defence is playing well.

I will try to watch a Boston-Islanders game this weekend, but it seems from the clips that the narrative from the UPI article about the Bruins being lost on big ice makes sense. Peeters had a great season with a 1.82 GAA, but he's posting a 7.67 GAA on the Island in this series.

 

[overpass]

First off, well done on doing the work in getting clips for the post.

As for "On the other hand, you could play good defence against Bossy and he could still beat you with his incredible shot and release" you're going to have to show me the ones where the defence is playing well.

For Bossy, I'll put forward the following:
Goal 2. The Islanders are moving the puck well on the power play and the Bruins are chasing but I don't see anyone out of position. Bossy finds a little space in the high slot, so the one high forward could have covered him more closely, but it's a well timed pass and Bossy gets the one timer away with what looks like not much space and no time at all.

The last two goals in game 6 aren't terrible D. Bossy just beats the defender to a rebound both times, and does a lot of work for it the second time. The defenders are engaged even if they lose the battle.

For the rest:
Goal 1: Krushelnyski chases Jonsson too far and leaves Bossy wide open. Or maybe Brad Park should have rotated up? For that matter, Ray Bourque had just been on the boards with Bossy before he skated back to the front of the net to help Park cover Trottier and Kallur. Not sure who their coach would point to in the film session.
Goal 3: Hillier gets caught playing the puck, gets turned around, and loses Bossy during the one-two.
Goal 4: Multiple Bruins get caught in between, looks like they didn't expect Jonsson to make that pass.
Goals 5 and 7: Bourque gets caught flat footed and Bossy gets a step on him both times
Goal 6: Peeters gives it away

Gretzky's goals had some pretty bad mistakes though. None as bad as Peeters' giveaway, but several where a defender just takes himself out of a play and I can't understand what they were thinking. To me they look worse than the Boston errors because they're constantly leaving the net unprotected.

Goal 1: Why does Doug Crossman just skate away from the net with Coffey after Coffey centres it? Why does Poulin just turn away from the net instead of staying with Gretzky, leaving Gretzky to beat Howe in a race for the rebound by the open net?

Goal 2: Coffey and Kurri run this quick, tight cycle in the right circle. Well done, good play by them. But Thomas Eriksson follows Kurri to the top of the circle and then just disappears. Where did he go? And why is Dave Poulin just standing on his heels in the high slot without engaging with first Kurri and then Gretzky skating uncovered to the net? I don't think Huddy is even at the left point behind him.

Goal 3: Poulin catches an edge while skating with Coffey, and takes himself out of the play by skating behind the net. Which forces Howe to skate out after Coffey, meaning Crossman has to cover the net alone, but Crossman doesn't realize Gretzky is behind him, stays too high, and lets the pass get between him and Lindbergh.

Goal 4: Good play by Messier, overlapping with Coffey and forcing defensive decisions. The Phillys RD steps up to take Messier, the F1 backchecker tracks back on Messier, and nobody takes Gretzky as he goes wide. Main mistake is by the Philly RD (or forward? Possibly 3 forwards at 4-on-4) who stepped up on Messier and let Gretzky get behind him.

Goal 6: Crossman and Ron Sutter both commit to covering Glenn Anderson as he drives the net. Bad mistake when killing a 5-on-4 as they both go behind the net, and the worst happens as they let Anderson hook it back into the open space they vacated.

For the other two, first Crossman and then Howe both just gave Gretzky a bit too much space around the net on each goal.

I will try to watch a Boston-Islanders game this weekend, but it seems from the clips that the narrative from the UPI article about the Bruins being lost on big ice makes sense. Peeters had a great season with a 1.82 GAA, but he's posting a 7.67 GAA on the Island in this series.

I am not qualified at all to evaluate 80s goaltending but I could totally believe Peeters had a bad series, based on these goals.