Binghamton to the ECHL?

[HockeyDude16]

The AHL has passed that market by. In all honesty the AHL is starting to become a worse watch than the ECHL with all the NHL owned teams. Discounting the high end prospects that make up the top of an AHL team the difference. Between an AHL team and ECHL team isn't what it used to be. In the ECHL chances are a team is not owned by a higher up league team. They have more flexibility. That aspect is nice. The NHL has ruined the AHL product. They don't care if your team actually wins.

I feel like the ECHL slowly became that as well. Granted I haven't watched ECHL since the Jackals folded in 2017 but from the last few years, I remember it was all about call-ups and seeing the talent grow. Not really about winning a cup. Also Jackals had a lot of problems and an affiliation with a equally broken Rochester and Buffalo

 

[Ody]

What proof do you have besides here say?

I’ve also heard the rumor that Ski mentioned, mmazz, and if it is true, I don’t expect to hear anything solid about it at least until the Black Bears season is over or almost over. Such an announcement might chill interest in that team if they are confirmed to be short-timers, even if that is what most people are thinking anyway.

That being said, that outcome would certainly be one of the more plausible ones. If you figure who might be the likeliest owners/operators of such a team, you might think that said group would already have decent relations with the Ottawa organization. I just really hope that they don’t just decide to call them the Binghamton Senators, even if there is a good amount of history associated with that name.

(I also don’t see the Atlanta Gladiators organization having objections to moving on to another affiliate.)

If ECHL is where we are headed in the near-term, than I think this affiliation would work well, given the long-standing Ottawa-Binghamton connection (even though that was not without some rocky moments). Moreover, Binghamton and Belleville never developed any kind of rivalry, so sending players there would not be too terrible. It would be preferable to having one of our long-established rivals, such as Rochester, to be the destination for our call-ups.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out this spring, as well as to see if a new team announcement goes along with the commencement of the long-awaited Arena transformation. But I don’t think there will be any solid news prior to the end of the season in deference to the current team’s need to sell tickets. So, unfortunately, the waiting game continues.

 

[mmazz22]

Ody im curious if you been to a Bears game. Curious to hear your thoughts on the play and atmosphere. Since the first game in my opinion the play has detoirated and the atmosphere is non existiant. I go once in awhile now to get out of the house on a Saturday night. Have a couple 10 buck beers and head home about half way through the second period. The games last forever because of the sloppy play there is so many whistles. The atmosphere I feel is more like a baseball game locally where no one really cares about the out come or the team, they are just there for something to do. Not any passion. Also roster turnover has been awful.

 

[Ody]

Ody im curious if you been to a Bears game. Curious to hear your thoughts on the play and atmosphere. Since the first game in my opinion the play has detoirated and the atmosphere is non existiant. I go once in awhile now to get out of the house on a Saturday night. Have a couple 10 buck beers and head home about half way through the second period. The games last forever because of the sloppy play there is so many whistles. The atmosphere I feel is more like a baseball game locally where no one really cares about the out come or the team, they are just there for something to do. Not any passion. Also roster turnover has been awful.

Mmazz, I actually was able to make it to a game a few weeks back. I actually wrote up a pretty lengthy summary of my experience for the Black Bears thread, but never got around to posting it. Brevity is not my forté.

I would say your “baseball game” analogy is spot-on. The crowd was more like a Rumble Ponies crowd than your typical Dustlerragsenavils one. Seemed that many were there to “see a game” rather than to see the team in particular. There were some mild cheers for a goal and jeers for a missed penalty call, but it wasn’t anything like it was even during the dullest seasons of the Devils. Certainly a far cry from any of the semi-exciting Dustlerragsenavils seasons. So, yes, this was quite noticeable.

As far as play quality goes, it was about what I was expecting. The problem here was that there was really no enhancement to the game day experience to offset the downgrade in quality. It seemed to feature the same trappings of a Dustlerragsenavils game, but without the AHL element. I felt that they needed to do something here off the ice to make the experience more entertaining, similar to what the Rumble Ponies do, but it instead was the same AHL offering without the AHL hockey to go with it.

Like you, I did the Scranton Shuffle back to the car in the second intermission. I never did that in 18 seasons as an AHL ticket holder. Not even during the dreadful 2006-2007 “V-Sens” debacle.

The main thing that took me out of it personally was the lack of stakes. If Binghamton won the game, would it be important? How excited are you supposed get about a run at the FPHL cup? Do they raise a banner next season if they win their three or four team division? And I can see stuff like this contributing to the crowd being out of it.

Also, the team they played was Watertown, which happens to be owned by the same people as the Black Bears. How is this fair? What’s keeping the owners from gaming the situation to their advantage? I would figure that most people would not think about this, but to me, it felt as if I was watching an intra-squad scrimmage. This might explain some of the roster turnover.

And all of this would be fine if we knew what the endgame was…or specifically if we knew there was an endgame in the first place. All we have for now is just a fairly plausible rumor that the Sens will be back in a new form. But not a lot to hang your hat on.

So, yes to both your points. I probably went into a bit more detail than you were hoping for. Though, to try and be a bit positive, I think FPHL hockey works for this season. It is doing its best to carry the torch from our betrayal of 2021 to whatever awaits us in mid-2022. However, if nothing is in the pipeline for this off-season, I could see that torch going out in short time.

 

[JMCx4]

I got this far: "Brevity is not my forté."

 

[Ody]

I got this far: "Brevity is not my forté."

Yours was a valiant effort…

 

[JMCx4]

I got this far: "Brevity is not my forté."

Yours was a valiant effort…

I'd settle for it being your fifth-té in your future posts.

 

[mmazz22]

ODY great post!
Just exactly what I was looking for.
I’ll go tonight for a period, I live 7 min away by foot and I have the tics through my sponsorship.
I’ll have a couple beers then we ‘ll all walk over to my house and drink and watch NHL .
You are so right on the outcome. I used to get so pissed if the local team lost and so psyched if they won.
Also like who you mentioned it’s exactly the same game experience. That experience was dull even for an AHL game!!

 

[Ody]

ODY great post!
Just exactly what I was looking for.
I’ll go tonight for a period, I live 7 min away by foot and I have the tics through my sponsorship.
I’ll have a couple beers then we ‘ll all walk over to my house and drink and watch NHL .
You are so right on the outcome. I used to get so pissed if the local team lost and so psyched if they won.
Also like who you mentioned it’s exactly the same game experience. That experience was dull even for an AHL game!!

That’s a pretty cool situation you have, mmazz.

How has the attendance been? The FPHL website shows an average of over 3,200. I’m wondering how accurate that number is.

The game I went to, I have to say, was very well attended by FPHL standards. The announced crowd was 3,200, and by my estimation, the actual crowd was maybe a few hundred below that. Could have been close to 3,000, anyway. I thought that was fairly impressive for this league, and I was surprised that there wasn’t more attendance padding by the team.

But I wonder if that is sustainable. I have seen some pictures of the crowds from last week, and they seem a bit more sparse. Those games were on Monday and Wednesday, though, so I wonder if Saturday games have still seen more respectable crowds.

One more thing: according to hockeydb and the recent attendance figures from the FPHL website, the Black Bears have better attendance than about 10 AHL teams this season. Interesting…

 

[mmazz22]

I’d say actual butts in the seats is closer to 1200-1500 the last 5 games I’ve been to.
Operation sellout was announced at 2500 but from pics I saw I’d guess it was also 1200-1500.

 

[bleedblue94]

If anyone believes the Black Bears are actually drawing 3k+ than I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya...

 

[Royalsflagrunner77]

Do you think the fans lack of motivation for this new team is because of the quality of the league. Do you gentlemen think the ECHL would draw a better crowd ?

 

[sabremike]

One of my fondest wishes would be for the US to see a pro hockey equivalent of the Atlantic League be formed where you have teams filled with vets and it's not just a developmental/feeder league. When the ECHL was that it was great but when it was turned into a straight feeder league the quality and entertainment value went down hard (I miss my Titans).

 

[mmazz22]

Hey Royal- The problem here in Bing is that we went from the best minor league (over 40 years in the AHL) to the worst pro league in hockey over night. The play is awful, if it is going to be awful at least fight and hit, that rarely happens. It is not entertaining in the least. Losing the direct tie to the NHL hurts big time here in a market that was fortunate to have that for over 40 years. Finding out that the team loses players to the SPHL has eroded credibility and then picking up local beer league players to round out the rosters does not garner respect for this team or league. The team lost a goalie yesterday to some SPHL team who then later traded him to another SPHL team! What?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ECHL would be a better respected league here. You can play up that useless affiliation to get some credibility. The play is better I m sure. Deifnitantly the hard core hockey fans that are staying away from this crap would attend the ECHL if it were here in Binghamton.

Sabre made a good point of a league of established vets on the down. I would love that! My biggest beef with the AHL and I can assume the ECHL is sort of like that is, you are the NHL"s Bitc-.
You play who the NHL wants you to play, you play the NHL system , wins and losses do not matter, it is all about developing prospects. The old AHL of the 70-80's was fantastic! Rivals, team individuality, players played in a city for years. Players did not hate being down here. They were part of the community. I think a vet league would be awesome!

If there was one thing about the Fed I liked was that the players are happy to be here and get excited when they score and seem to be very community oriented. That is respectful.

 

[sabremike]

Hey Royal- The problem here in Bing is that we went from the best minor league (over 40 years in the AHL) to the worst pro league in hockey over night. The play is awful, if it is going to be awful at least fight and hit, that rarely happens. It is not entertaining in the least. Losing the direct tie to the NHL hurts big time here in a market that was fortunate to have that for over 40 years. Finding out that the team loses players to the SPHL has eroded credibility and then picking up local beer league players to round out the rosters does not garner respect for this team or league. The team lost a goalie yesterday to some SPHL team who then later traded him to another SPHL team! What?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ECHL would be a better respected league here. You can play up that useless affiliation to get some credibility. The play is better I m sure. Deifnitantly the hard core hockey fans that are staying away from this crap would attend the ECHL if it were here in Binghamton.

Sabre made a good point of a league of established vets on the down. I would love that! My biggest beef with the AHL and I can assume the ECHL is sort of like that is, you are the NHL"s Bitc-.
You play who the NHL wants you to play, you play the NHL system , wins and losses do not matter, it is all about developing prospects. The old AHL of the 70-80's was fantastic! Rivals, team individuality, players played in a city for years. Players did not hate being down here. They were part of the community. I think a vet league would be awesome!

If there was one thing about the Fed I liked was that the players are happy to be here and get excited when they score and seem to be very community oriented. That is respectful.

The issue with being an American version of the LNAH is that the league already had to use ethically questionable means to evade a lawsuit due to a serious injury. They realized that they couldn't afford for such a thing to happen again and that while Slap Shot style craziness is entertaining there would be a serious risk of something real bad happening.

 

[JMCx4]

If anyone believes the Black Bears are actually drawing 3k+ than I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya...

View attachment 497219

Clearly an image from a team or media timeout. A couple thousand fans took the opportunity for a bio-break & a beer.

 

[bleedblue94]

Clearly an image from a team or media timeout. A couple thousand fans took the opportunity for a bio-break & a beer.

Haha.

I understand that there are ups and downs with attendance, but a simple look on facebook and pictures from games show the building is routinely 20-30% full. Outside of the nostalgic first couple of weeks of the season (along with a return of live sports to the area) this seems to be the norm. I believe that arena holds roughly 4500, so that would mean despite all the free tickets given away and whatever comps they do they have somewhere around 1000-1500 in the building.

If I can read correctly that picture is from the 3rd period of a one goal game. Beer sales are cutoff at the start of the 3rd period so it's not as if you would still have people on the concourse waiting in line for a brew at this point. There just isnt anyone at the game...

 

[bleedblue94]

Do you think the fans lack of motivation for this new team is because of the quality of the league. Do you gentlemen think the ECHL would draw a better crowd ?

I think part of the issue is they have 3-5 local guys that have played in local beer leagues. Sure you have some people that get excited for the local kids, but really why would most local hockey players spend money on tickets, parking, and overpriced beer just to watch guys play hockey that they have played beer league with?

 

[bleedblue94]

The issue with being an American version of the LNAH is that the league already had to use ethically questionable means to evade a lawsuit due to a serious injury. They realized that they couldn't afford for such a thing to happen again and that while Slap Shot style craziness is entertaining there would be a serious risk of something real bad happening.

This is a big thing people dont realize with the fed, along with the fact it is not collectively bargained nor is it even recognized by the nhl cba. I dont even believe the players are a part of the PHPA. It is very much a free for all and the fact you have singular owners owning multiple teams just makes it even more comical. I mean what credible leagues has teams owned by the same person playing each other? Nascar I guess, but that is apples and oranges

 

[JMCx4]

... I mean what credible leagues has teams owned by the same person playing each other? ...

So I reckon you're not a supporter of the ECHL and Deacon Sports & Entertainment Limited?

 

[bleedblue94]

So I reckon you're not a supporter of the ECHL and Deacon Sports & Entertainment Limited?

I'm not a fan of it in general, but I should've been more clear on this. It happens in some sports but requires a large amount of oversight to be done effectively and with integrity. I am aware of condition set forth in the ECHL, but when talking about the fed it is a different situation. I mean the league commissioner has an ownership stake in multiple if not all of the fed teams. Bettman recently even discussed the idea of firms having ownership stakes in multiple NHL teams, but that it would require specific oversight. I dont mean to pick on the fed, but I dont think its circumstances and oversight are comparable to the current day ECHL or any other league that is a member of the PHPA or included in the NHL cba. That all to me is part of the distinction between professional and something that is trying to pose as professional.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

The issue with being an American version of the LNAH is that the league already had to use ethically questionable means to evade a lawsuit due to a serious injury. They realized that they couldn't afford for such a thing to happen again and that while Slap Shot style craziness is entertaining there would be a serious risk of something real bad happening.

What the Fed did wasn't merely "ethically questionable," it was illegal. Ultimately, they were going to be forced to pay Moje one way or another, so they came to a settlement.

But don't be so sure that Don the Con, Gun Slingin' Barry and Sarge wouldn't pull such shenanigans again. They absolutely would.

 

[Ratitude]

This is a big thing people dont realize with the fed, along with the fact it is not collectively bargained nor is it even recognized by the nhl cba. I dont even believe the players are a part of the PHPA. It is very much a free for all and the fact you have singular owners owning multiple teams just makes it even more comical. I mean what credible leagues has teams owned by the same person playing each other? Nascar I guess, but that is apples and oranges

Minor league teams before have been owned by same owners of other teams. Few years ago the ownership group of the Philly Soul also owned the Albany Empire of the arena football league. Ownership groups with multiple holdings in the same league shouldn't always automatically raise suspicion. The AFL also had a players association to at least but also to unions also aren't always on the up and up either. Like anything else if you feel your pay and benefits aren't adequate then move on. Never been a fan of unions forcing employers to pay more then what is sustainable whether its a business owner or taxpayers.

 

[Ratitude]

I see Watertown has Yannick Tifu on the club, was surprised. Heck he played here in Albany for the Rats back in early to mid 2000s. See I have no problem watching a league with a mix of older guys who have had their days behind them with having played in the ECHL/AHL levels and a mix of guys who had played competitive careers at D3 collegiate and tier 2 junior clubs. They play for the love of the game and if there isn't constant roster turnover and poaching what the heck lol

 

[JMCx4]

I see Watertown has Yannick Tifu on the club, was surprised. Heck he played here in Albany for the Rats back in early to mid 2000s. ...

After 5 seasons in the LNAH, there was no lower tier in North American "pro hockey" than the FPHL to provide a fade-to-black exit from his long & storied career.