Better GOALscoring season: Ovie 07-08 vs Matthews 23-24

[The Macho King]

Matthews by a hair. The biggest differentiator is that Matthews' goal scoring comes from such a high variety of shot types and locations on the ice. So many of Ovechkin's goals were just him standing still on the PP and ripping one timers from top of the left circle. That's obviously impressive, but easier to game plan against.

Matthews can score goals at high volumes literally any way you can imagine. Deflections, tips, rebounds, dekes in tight, wrist & snap shots off the rush, one timers, dekes off the rush, slap shots, stationary wrist shots, backhanders from the slot, wraparounds... the dude may have the most well rounded goal scoring arsenal we've ever seen.

This is not true in 08. Ovi didn't become a PP turret until later in his career. Hell - Stamkos was more known for that for a few years before it became Ovi's go to move.

In 08 if there was an Ovi "move" it was him coming down the left side with speed and then cutting toward the center and releasing a wrister using the Dman as a partial screen. I had nightmares of that man back then.

 

[amnesiac]

Agreed, suggesting Ovie was one dimensional ignores a huge part of his game.

I dont think anyone is, but my point was that playing a strong 2-way game takes away more "scoring opportunities" over a full season than if you were a high scoring hitting winger.

 

[Turin]

If you placed 23 year old Ovechkin in this nhl he would score 75

 

[amnesiac]

So is era adjusted good or bad? Not following.

I'm sure with era-adjusted stats Gretzky is not Gretzky anymore... is Lemiuex the consensus #1 or is there someone else?

It's almost like just posting that link and nothing else is silly.

For example, it doesn't take into account the insane amount of PP time that Ovechkin got.

You want to add context to 06 and pre-WW2? I think all eras need context.

its not a question of good or bad, its just math, and making the proper comparisons with the league's GPG avg for that given season.

When people start bringing up the difference in: goalie skill, equipment, sticks, defensive systems etc etc.... it doesnt matter! What matters is what the numbers were relative to the season's GPG avg, and thats it.

It also makes a lot more sense to compare, say, how many "top 5 or 10 scoring" seasons one had vs another, instead of comparing their numbers.

You can talk about how many more PP opportunities one guy had, or having better linemates/team vs another player, thats fine. But when talking about quantity alone, you just do the math.

sometimes the difference may be negligible such as say comparing 95-96 to 23-24. Was virtually the same GPG avg.

If you placed 23 year old Ovechkin in this nhl he would score 75

72 actually in theory

 

[geebster]

Said it before in other threads, but Ovies is the most impressive goalscoring season I've seen as an adult. I have too much nostalgia to properly rate the Bure seasons I saw as a kid so I don't include those.

Low scoring league and he just went through people. He also did a lot outside of scoring to tilt the ice. True generational superstar season there.

That said there's nothing wrong with bring second to that. 69 this year is extremely impressive. It is no knock to say Ovies is better. Matthews is going to get valid criticism for his postseason production etc but his regular season goalscoring is historically great and best there is right now.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

So is era adjusted good or bad? Not following.

I'm sure with era-adjusted stats Gretzky is not Gretzky anymore... is Lemiuex the consensus #1 or is there someone else?

It's almost like just posting that link and nothing else is silly.

For example, it doesn't take into account the insane amount of PP time that Ovechkin got.

You want to add context to 06 and pre-WW2? I think all eras need context.

You'd be flat out wrong, lol. But keep being sure of yourself.

 

[norrisnick]

You'd be flat out wrong, lol. But keep being sure of yourself.

Yeah, unless any and all adjusting is "whatever Mario does is better" no formula will spit out Lemieux, or anyone else for that matter, ahead of Gretzky.

 

[Old Gregg]

its not a question of good or bad, its just math, and making the proper comparisons with the league's GPG avg for that given season.

When people start bringing up the difference in: goalie skill, equipment, sticks, defensive systems etc etc.... it doesnt matter! What matters is what the numbers were relative to the season's GPG avg, and thats it.

It also makes a lot more sense to compare, say, how many "top 5 or 10 scoring" seasons one had vs another, instead of comparing their numbers.

You can talk about how many more PP opportunities one guy had, or having better linemates/team vs another player, thats fine. But when talking about quantity alone, you just do the math.

sometimes the difference may be negligible such as say comparing 95-96 to 23-24. Was virtually the same GPG avg.


72 actually in theory

Nah. Ovechkin would be suspended multiple times for leaving his feet while hitting

 

[Shark Finn]

That's fair, It wasn't as prevalent that year as it eventually became, but it was still very much a big part of his goal scoring.

So it goes against him in 07-08? Besides, teams had a chance to try and adjust to Ovechkin. They didn't and he has over 850 goals.

 

[notbias]

its not a question of good or bad, its just math, and making the proper comparisons with the league's GPG avg for that given season.

When people start bringing up the difference in: goalie skill, equipment, sticks, defensive systems etc etc.... it doesnt matter! What matters is what the numbers were relative to the season's GPG avg, and thats it.

It also makes a lot more sense to compare, say, how many "top 5 or 10 scoring" seasons one had vs another, instead of comparing their numbers.

You can talk about how many more PP opportunities one guy had, or having better linemates/team vs another player, thats fine. But when talking about quantity alone, you just do the math.

sometimes the difference may be negligible such as say comparing 95-96 to 23-24. Was virtually the same GPG avg.

In this scenario, Morenz had the best season and Hull had the best scoring season.

I just want an agreement there, that's all.

You'd be flat out wrong, lol. But keep being sure of yourself.

Gretzky has the 2nd/4th/6th/8th/10th best season now.

In reality he has 1st/2nd/3rd/4th/6th/7th/8th/10th.

His point total would drop a ton, he should no longer be considered the untouchable player that he once was.

He will still lead, but it will be much closer.

 

[amnesiac]

In this scenario, Morenz had the best season and Hull had the best scoring season.

I just want an agreement there, that's all.



Gretzky has the 2nd/4th/6th/8th/10th best season now.

In reality he has 1st/2nd/3rd/4th/6th/7th/8th/10th.

His point total would drop a ton, he should no longer be considered the untouchable player that he once was.

He will still lead, but it will be much closer.

again, comparing O6 and especially pre WW2 era numbers gets too fuzzy..... Only 6 teams and A LOT less games played. You basically have too small a sample size (GPG avg) to compare the point totals to a 20+ team league at 80+GP/season.

Heres where it makes more sense to compare top 5 scoring finishes, hardware etc.... For sure you cant just forget what Morenz or Eddie shore did. They were the Gretzky's of their time, much like Babe Ruth was in baseball. But to compare their numbers is almost pointless, no pun intended.

Tell yourself in 30+ years were going to start judging Howe and his accomplishments as we are judging Morenz today. People are gonna say "hockey was so bad 100 years ago. His numbers dont mean anything".... And one day in the far future people will say "yeah well Gretzky never faced Europeans, 80s hockey was long ago and had far inferior skill. His numbers cant be compared".

 

[notbias]

Yeah, unless any and all adjusting is "whatever Mario does is better" no formula will spit out Lemieux, or anyone else for that matter, ahead of Gretzky.

Gretzky's career PPG drops to 1.66 and he drops to 4th all-time in goals.

Lemieux's career PPG is now 1.68.

Crosby is 4th all-time in points.

Ovechkin already has the goal record.

again, comparing O6 and especially pre WW2 era numbers gets too fuzzy..... Only 6 teams and A LOT less games played. You basically have too small a sample size (GPG avg) to compare the point totals to a 20+ team league at 80+GP/season.

Heres where it makes more sense to compare top 5 scoring finishes, hardware etc.... For sure you cant just forget what Morenz or Eddie shore did. They were the Gretzky's of their time. Much like Babe Ruth was in baseball. But to compare their numbers is almost pointless, no pun intended.

You're adding context based on our opinion of what makes it easier/harder to get points instead of using era adjusted...

I think era adjusted has its place as well, but it is far from perfect and it seems like a lot of people are holding onto that in this thread for some reason.

You'd have to acknowledge that Gretzky wasn't as good as everyone thought if you are going down that route, and that his records are indeed not untouchable.

 

[Regal]

Not in 07-08. There's literal video evidence against this comment.

It would actually be crazy how many goals he would have scored if he was both the ES player he was in 07-08 and had the PP set-up of the 2013-15 period.

 

[HolyHagelin]

Considering matthews played like 200 minutes less on the power play iirc I’ll 100% take matthews 69 goals. Not surprised Ovie is winning though with all the leafs bias.

Ps. This site is f***ing unusable now with all the ads popping up everywhere.

Switch to Brave browser

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovechkin was always used very heavily on PP, to the point where his efficiency was not too good (though better than that of any Caps player who could have replaced him). He had enough stamina to afford this use and delivered a lot of PP goals in return.

The Capitals have the #1 powerplay percentage in the NHL from 2005-2024.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

This is the entirety of Ovechkin's career. It's not a coincidence.

 

[HolyHagelin]

When Matthews can carry the puck end to end like OV and bowl over the whole defense on his way to crashing the net and putting back his own rebound like OV he might get placed on a tier like OV. Until then, Russian Machine is all on his own.

And i say that as a Rangers fan that has had quite enough of facing him in the playoffs.

 

[amnesiac]

Gretzky's career PPG drops to 1.66 and he drops to 4th all-time in goals.

Lemieux's career PPG is now 1.68.

Crosby is 4th all-time in points.

Ovechkin already has the goal record.



You're adding context based on our opinion of what makes it easier/harder to get points instead of using era adjusted...

I think era adjusted has its place as well, but it is far from perfect and it seems like a lot of people are holding onto that in this thread for some reason.

You'd have to acknowledge that Gretzky wasn't as good as everyone thought if you are going down that route, and that his records are indeed not untouchable.

of course, its not 100% perfect, but it gives you MUCH better idea of what the comparable point totals are between players/eras than just saying "well this guy scored on crappier goalies, so he wouldve scored less today".

You can talk about WHY the GPG avg went up/down over a given era, reasons like: expansion diluting the defense (main reason why scoring went up in the 70s/80s) or bigger goalie equipment and coaches playing more defensive systems (main reason why scoring went down in the DPE)

Whatever the reason is, its going to produce an overall GPG avg over the course of a season. And thats pretty much your best gauge.

PLAYER A scores 200P in a year when they were scoring 8 goals/game.

PLAYER B scores 175P in a year when they were scoring 5 goals/game.

same amount of teams and games played.... Obviously PLAYER B had the better season, I hope you agree..... It doesn't matter what the difference in equipment or goalies was like for PLAYER A and B.

As for Gretzky's records, the only one thats already been "surpassed" by a longshot is 894. Most of his goals came at 7-8 GPG and he stopped scoring after age 32 or so. Ovie has been putting up 45-65G at 5.2-6.2 GPG, and did it until age 37. If youre one of those that believe Gretzky is still the superior goalscorer because of the total numbers, then I cant help you.

Gretzky's assist and point totals even after adjusting are still 1st by a longshot. To me, a more telling stat is his 9 consecutive Harts. You dont need to look at point totals here. He was the best player in the game easily for a decade plus. You cant say that about anyone else. Though some will argue Orr was. But injuries are injuries, what ifs are what ifs.

 

[Stephen]

If you’re asking a question about goal scoring, doesn’t it just boil down to whether you want to have 69 goals or you want 65?

 

[Regal]

If you’re asking a question about goal scoring, doesn’t it just boil down to whether you want to have 69 goals or you want 65?

Not when 69 goals doesn’t mean as much today

 

[notbias]

If you’re asking a question about goal scoring, doesn’t it just boil down to whether you want to have 69 goals or you want 65?

only sometimes... other times you need to reference era-adjusted numbers and ignore 3 full games more of PP time.

of course, its not 100% perfect, but it gives you MUCH better idea of what the comparable point totals are between players/eras than just saying "well this guy scored on crappier goalies, so he wouldve scored less today".

You can talk about WHY the GPG avg went up/down over a given era, reasons like: expansion diluting the defense (main reason why scoring went up in the 70s/80s) or bigger goalie equipment and coaches playing more defensive systems (main reason why scoring went down in the DPE)

Whatever the reason is, its going to produce an overall GPG avg over the course of a season. And thats pretty much your best gauge.

PLAYER A scores 200P in a year when they were scoring 8 goals/game.

PLAYER B scores 175P in a year when they were scoring 5 goals/game.

same amount of teams and games played.... Obviously PLAYER B had the better season, I hope you agree..... It doesn't matter what the difference in equipment or goalies was like for PLAYER A and B.

As for Gretzky's records, the only one thats already been "surpassed" by a longshot is 894. Most of his goals came at 7-8 GPG and he stopped scoring after age 32 or so. Ovie has been putting up 45-65G at 5.2-6.2 GPG, and did it until age 37. If youre one of those that believe Gretzky is still the superior goalscorer because of the total numbers, then I cant help you.

Gretzky's assist and point totals even after adjusting are still 1st by a longshot. To me, a more telling stat is his 9 consecutive Harts. You dont need to look at point totals here. He was the best player in the game easily for a decade plus. You cant say that about anyone else. Though some will argue Orr was. But injuries are injuries, what ifs are what ifs.

I'll sum up your entire post by the "what ifs are what ifs"

You say that while referencing era-adjusted stats...

 

[Stephen]

Not when 69 goals doesn’t mean as much today

My opinion, but the moment the era adjusted card gets played you may as well just say whomever you like save everyone the little song and dance. It’s pseudo scientific at best, and just say what you prefer.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Ovechkin scored 65 in an era where we thought 60 would never be hit again.

Matthews scored 69 in an era where 60 happens on the reg.

For me it's Ovechkin.

 

[Xspyrit]

Ovechkin scored 65 in an era where we thought 60 would never be hit again.

Matthews scored 69 in an era where 60 happens on the reg.

For me it's Ovechkin.

Last 3 seasons (2021-22 to 2023-24), there's been a 50+ goals season 13 times

It also happened 13 times from 2007-08 to 2016-17 (10 seasons) and Ovechkin has 6 of them

* 2012-13 was a shortened season but Ovie was the only one to pace for 50+

My opinion, but the moment the era adjusted card gets played you may as well just say whomever you like save everyone the little song and dance. It’s pseudo scientific at best, and just say what you prefer.

Era-adjusted stats are calculated through a mathematical formula. It's not going to be perfect as things are not linear and there's a huge variety of factors, but it is purely mathematical.

 

[Stephen]

only sometimes... other times you need to reference era-adjusted numbers and ignore 3 full games more of PP time.

When the margin is 3.2 more imaginary goals, just say you like Ovi better. We don’t need this air of math and analytical process attached to it.

 

[Stephen]

Ovechkin scored 65 in an era where we thought 60 would never be hit again.

Matthews scored 69 in an era where 60 happens on the reg.

For me it's Ovechkin.

Specious comment when Stamkos also hit 60 goals around that time.

60 goals only happens on the regular cause Matthews is doing it on the regular. Only other guys were Pastrnak and McDavid, who is a Top 5 player of all time.