BCHL adding 5 Alberta teams

[landy92mack29]

You are really comparing apples to oranges here, and I am a BCHL fan.

CHL only pays for schooling and is dependent on how many years served in the league.

Meanwhile, the kids in the BCHL get a full ride scholarship (housing, tuition) to a school in the US. You have no idea the different culture of college life in the States compared to Canada. College hockey is huge and well supported, while CIS hockey could barely draw 100 to a game. Not to mention kids want to test themselves against college level hockey.

The CHL agreement pays for room and food also but if you play 4 years in the whl it's value comes to about 45-50K(depends which school you go to) vs D1 value is about 150-200K depending on school. Can't speak on attendance other than Regina and U of S(Saskatoon) but they get over 1K a game, sometimes quite a bit more.

 

[Bubbles]

The CHL agreement pays for room and food also but if you play 4 years in the whl it's value comes to about 45-50K(depends which school you go to) vs D1 value is about 150-200K depending on school. Can't speak on attendance other than Regina and U of S(Saskatoon) but they get over 1K a game, sometimes quite a bit more.

Which is still much much less than most college attendance. And as I said, college culture is a different than Canadian university culture.

Rank	Team	Dates	Total Attendance	Average Attendance	Capacity	Cap. %
1	North Dakota	16	185,504	11,594	11,634	99.7
2	Minnesota	14	132,004	9,429	10,257	91.9
3	Wisconsin	12	105,625	8,802	15,359	57.3
4	Boston College	11	76,705	6,973	7,884	88.4
5	Omaha	13	87,741	6,749	7,898	85.5
6	Michigan State	11	70,857	6,442	6,114	105.4
7	Minnesota Duluth	11	69,286	6,299	6,756	93.2
8	Penn State	13	80,815	6,217	5,782	107.5
9	Denver	13	78,811	6,062	6,026	100.6
10	Michigan	13	75,019	5,771	5,800	99.5

Anyways, back to the main point, I'd rather the BCHL attract some of the Junior A guys in the country instead of hopping to the USHL, which is a trend that's been happening more and more.

 

[landy92mack29]

Which is still much much less than most college attendance. And as I said, college culture is a different than Canadian university culture.

Rank	Team	Dates	Total Attendance	Average Attendance	Capacity	Cap. %
1	North Dakota	16	185,504	11,594	11,634	99.7
2	Minnesota	14	132,004	9,429	10,257	91.9
3	Wisconsin	12	105,625	8,802	15,359	57.3
4	Boston College	11	76,705	6,973	7,884	88.4
5	Omaha	13	87,741	6,749	7,898	85.5
6	Michigan State	11	70,857	6,442	6,114	105.4
7	Minnesota Duluth	11	69,286	6,299	6,756	93.2
8	Penn State	13	80,815	6,217	5,782	107.5
9	Denver	13	78,811	6,062	6,026	100.6
10	Michigan	13	75,019	5,771	5,800	99.5

Anyways, back to the main point, I'd rather the BCHL attract some of the Junior A guys in the country instead of hopping to the USHL, which is a trend that's been happening more and more.

yeah the NCAA experience is definitely better but the routes are kinda inverse. The NCAA route kids play in front of less than 1K in general for 2-3 years before going to the schools but they have to actually earn a scholarship vs kids who go WHL route play in front of 5K+ for most teams then if they don't make pro go to CIS. The one thing though is WHL path guarentees some sort of money even if you suck/get hurt where schools can de commit players if they don't perform/get hurt the NCAA route. Both definitely have pros and cons but both are good routes, depends on what the player wants. In general I'd say CHL is the best route for high end players where NCAA is better for mid tier talent or players who are undersized

 

[mouser]

yeah the NCAA experience is definitely better but the routes are kinda inverse. The NCAA route kids play in front of less than 1K in general for 2-3 years before going to the schools but they have to actually earn a scholarship vs kids who go WHL route play in front of 5K+ for most teams then if they don't make pro go to CIS. The one thing though is WHL path guarentees some sort of money even if you suck/get hurt where schools can de commit players if they don't perform/get hurt the NCAA route. Both definitely have pros and cons but both are good routes, depends on what the player wants. In general I'd say CHL is the best route for high end players where NCAA is better for mid tier talent or players who are undersized

Is that accurate? Per HockeyDB, only 3 of the 22 WHL teams had over 5K attendance in 2022-23. Median attendance looks like roughly 3,860.

WHL 2022-23 team attendance at hockeydb.com

Attendance for the Western Hockey League for the 2022-23 season

www.hockeydb.com

 

[bigdog16]

yeah the NCAA experience is definitely better but the routes are kinda inverse. The NCAA route kids play in front of less than 1K in general for 2-3 years before going to the schools but they have to actually earn a scholarship vs kids who go WHL route play in front of 5K+ for most teams then if they don't make pro go to CIS. The one thing though is WHL path guarentees some sort of money even if you suck/get hurt where schools can de commit players if they don't perform/get hurt the NCAA route. Both definitely have pros and cons but both are good routes, depends on what the player wants. In general I'd say CHL is the best route for high end players where NCAA is better for mid tier talent or players who are undersized

Schools can’t decommit kids. They can ghost them and imply they don’t want them anymore, which does happen. But there are also cases where a kid gets a full boat and doesn’t touch ice for 4 years.

 

[hockeykid87]

Having worked in the BCHL I can tell you that NCAA teams can and do yank scholarships at a moment's notice. It happens all the time to some of these kids. Either they get passed on the depth chart by other recruits or the school simply doesn't think that player will fit with their team in the future. Then that kid has to try and get another commitment.

WHL scholarship is guaranteed. Kids now get three years up front and two more years if they play at age 18 and 19.

 

[landy92mack29]

Having worked in the BCHL I can tell you that NCAA teams can and do yank scholarships at a moment's notice. It happens all the time to some of these kids. Either they get passed on the depth chart by other recruits or the school simply doesn't think that player will fit with their team in the future. Then that kid has to try and get another commitment.

WHL scholarship is guaranteed. Kids now get three years up front and two more years if they play at age 18 and 19.

Yup we had a player committed to Dartmouth but messed up his shoulder badly and they de committed him.

 

[bigdog16]

Having worked in the BCHL I can tell you that NCAA teams can and do yank scholarships at a moment's notice. It happens all the time to some of these kids. Either they get passed on the depth chart by other recruits or the school simply doesn't think that player will fit with their team in the future. Then that kid has to try and get another commitment.

WHL scholarship is guaranteed. Kids now get three years up front and two more years if they play at age 18 and 19.

Not once a NLI is signed. They can tell kids they don’t see a fit on the team anymore but can’t pull a scholarship. Before they implemented the afe restriction to commit there were 15-16 year olds being offered full rides and schools would have to follow thru.

 

[JKG33]

This is great news, and I love to see it.

The USA had something similar albeit at a slightly lower level. The WSHL was a successful unsanctioned Jr A alternative to the NAHL and NA3HL. Having played a season in the league I was skeptical at first but ultimately wished I would've gone there sooner.

The BCHL is doing the same thing, telling hockey canada to get f***ed which is a great thing. Hockey Canada will always have major junior for the best of the best, but Canada's Jr A system needs improvement.

I really wouldn't be surprised if long term the BCHL expands south, adding teams in Washington, Idaho, Montana, Colorado, and Utah. A lot of those teams in the existing NA3HL and USPHL had to take a "demotion" in league quality when the WSHL disbanded.

 

[MeHateHe]

The WSHL was a successful unsanctioned Jr A alternative to the NAHL and NA3HL.

The Western States Hockey League had a revolving door of franchises before it added a bunch of teams in western Canada and then ultimately went belly up.

 

[Slats432]

As a season ticket holder in the AJHL, I am not going to renew. They are doing it for financial reasons. This has very little to do with Hockey Canada, although it is a factor. They want to be able to recruit and not be bound by rules. There are teams with next to zero BC players in the BCHL. Players can go across provincial borders younger than 18. It is all about the cash.

 

[jetsmooseice]

OK, can someone ELI5 what the thinking behind all this is?

I get that BCHL wants to escape Hockey Canada recruitment rules and recruit 16 year olds regardless of where they're from. Questionable, but OK.

But what is the NCAA angle here? The BCHL and to a lesser extent the AJHL already send a pile of players to the NCAA each year. This is supposed to raise those totals? How? By preventing the outflow of NCAA-bound talent to the USHL? Or is there another angle here?

Anything else I'm missing?

I assume at some point Hockey Canada is going to realize it's outgunned here and will be cowed into a compromise with the rebel leagues before everything settles back down again. Not entirely unlike how it went when the WHL was born. The end result is that we may end up with larger regional Jr. A leagues that look more like the CHL model than a bunch of smaller provincial/regional leagues. Which kind of makes sense, I can see the merit behind teams like Penticton, Chilliwack, etc. being officially a level up from the likes of Swan Valley or whatever other tiny town teams there are in the CJHL. Maybe this will reinvigorate Jr. B hockey if the smaller town teams end up going down a level?

 

[sigx15]

OK, can someone ELI5 what the thinking behind all this is?

I get that BCHL wants to escape Hockey Canada recruitment rules and recruit 16 year olds regardless of where they're from. Questionable, but OK.

But what is the NCAA angle here? The BCHL and to a lesser extent the AJHL already send a pile of players to the NCAA each year. This is supposed to raise those totals? How? By preventing the outflow of NCAA-bound talent to the USHL? Or is there another angle here?

Anything else I'm missing?

I assume at some point Hockey Canada is going to realize it's outgunned here and will be cowed into a compromise with the rebel leagues before everything settles back down again. Not entirely unlike how it went when the WHL was born. The end result is that we may end up with larger regional Jr. A leagues that look more like the CHL model than a bunch of smaller provincial/regional leagues. Which kind of makes sense, I can see the merit behind teams like Penticton, Chilliwack, etc. being a level up from the likes of Swan Valley or whatever. Maybe this will reinvigorate Jr. B hockey if the smaller town teams end up going down a level?

Ya that's pretty much it from what I've gathered. Right now based on Heisenberg's file the BCHL have about 160 kids committed for D1. USHL has 2x that amount. I think the idea is to raise the base level of competition and entice more kids to stay in Canada. Also, the BCHL has become a good place for American kids who'd be 3rd or 4th liners in the USHL to go get 1st or 2nd line and special teams minutes. They may be looking to gain more of them as well as gain more high end talent

In the last few years Canada has had these 1st or 2nd rounders end up in the USHL, could they keep them in the BCHL if the competition level was higher? Adam Fantilli, Dylan James, Ryan Greene, Owen Power, Kent Johnson.

The other thing that's happening is the USHL is getting a lot of Europeans, who are first or 2nd rounders, could the BCHL start attracting more of thos players like Adam Gajan, Michael Hrabal, Maxim Strbak, Martin Misiak, Yan Kuznetsov, Mason Lohrei, Vladistov Firstov, Egor Afanasyev, etc.

 

[JKG33]

The Western States Hockey League had a revolving door of franchises before it added a bunch of teams in western Canada and then ultimately went belly up.

That it did, the league was very much a mix of haves and have nots. But the top end teams (El Paso already moved to the NAHL) could've made it in the BCHL. Like Idaho, Colorado (Boulder), Ogden (Utah). There's an appetite for that level of hockey

 

[Isaac Nootin]

In the last few years Canada has had these 1st or 2nd rounders end up in the USHL, could they keep them in the BCHL if the competition level was higher? Adam Fantilli, Dylan James, Ryan Greene, Owen Power, Kent Johnson.

Just a small correction, but Kent Johnson never played in the USHL. He was 2 years in the BCHL before heading to Michigan.

Your point still remains valid however.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Ya that's pretty much it from what I've gathered. Right now based on Heisenberg's file the BCHL have about 160 kids committed for D1. USHL has 2x that amount. I think the idea is to raise the base level of competition and entice more kids to stay in Canada. Also, the BCHL has become a good place for American kids who'd be 3rd or 4th liners in the USHL to go get 1st or 2nd line and special teams minutes. They may be looking to gain more of them as well as gain more high end talent

In the last few years Canada has had these 1st or 2nd rounders end up in the USHL, could they keep them in the BCHL if the competition level was higher? Adam Fantilli, Dylan James, Ryan Greene, Owen Power, Kent Johnson.

The other thing that's happening is the USHL is getting a lot of Europeans, who are first or 2nd rounders, could the BCHL start attracting more of thos players like Adam Gajan, Michael Hrabal, Maxim Strbak, Martin Misiak, Yan Kuznetsov, Mason Lohrei, Vladistov Firstov, Egor Afanasyev, etc.

When you put it in those terms, it really seems like what they want to do is to create a WHL that operates in a way that is consistent with NCAA recruitment rules.

I wonder if the WHL is getting a nervous as a result of this? The dub lost a bit of talent interested in pursuing the NCAA path to Jr. A/USHL over the years, but with a seriously beefed up BCHL that covers BC/AB, that could really take a big bite out of their recruitment pool. A kid like Matt Savoie who made a last minute decision to go the WHL route could easily be swayed into the BCHL now given that the level of competition will probably be much higher.

The BCHL path for most players is going to start looking a lot more appealing to the average junior player... go to the WHL and unless you go pro, your next stop is U of C, or U of S or wherever, where you either stop playing hockey or play the glorified senior hockey in front of 100 people that is U Sports. Go to the BCHL and you still get a competitive junior hockey experience, you still have a potential shot at the pros while still getting an education. And you get to choose where to go. And the range of NCAA options is fairly wide, you have the big D1 glam teams but even the D3 clubs are still probably going to offer a better experience and lifestyle for the most part than Canada West.

In the post Cale Makar era, what compelling reason is there anymore to slog it out for years on WHL bus rides when you can play Jr. A in a much more competitive and legit league than before, jump to the NCAA and basically have your cake and eat it too? I mean, I like the dub a lot but if you're a player you sort of have to read the writing on the wall.

 

[MeHateHe]

As a season ticket holder in the AJHL, I am not going to renew. They are doing it for financial reasons. This has very little to do with Hockey Canada, although it is a factor. They want to be able to recruit and not be bound by rules. There are teams with next to zero BC players in the BCHL. Players can go across provincial borders younger than 18. It is all about the cash.

This is an interesting aspect of this. Junior hockey teams have a tricky dance, straddling a line of connection with the community and high level hockey. Do fans want a team that is elite even if there is no real connection to the community? Or will they put up with less quality if the players are local? The BCHL rule requires just 6 BC players. What's the best mix?

That it did, the league was very much a mix of haves and have nots. But the top end teams (El Paso already moved to the NAHL) could've made it in the BCHL. Like Idaho, Colorado (Boulder), Ogden (Utah). There's an appetite for that level of hockey

Describing a now defunct league that, throughout its history was a mixed bag of teams coming and going as "successful," well, that's the kind of thing I will not agree with.

 

[JKG33]

This is an interesting aspect of this. Junior hockey teams have a tricky dance, straddling a line of connection with the community and high level hockey. Do fans want a team that is elite even if there is no real connection to the community? Or will they put up with less quality if the players are local? The BCHL rule requires just 6 BC players. What's the best mix?

Describing a now defunct league that, throughout its history was a mixed bag of teams coming and going as "successful," well, that's the kind of thing I will not agree with.

It was successful in that it was around for nearly 30 years and the top half of the league was fairly consistent. They misplayed their hand as the American junior hockey landscape changed, but it was still a better league than you're giving credit

 

[MeHateHe]

The BCHL path for most players is going to start looking a lot more appealing to the average junior player... go to the WHL and unless you go pro, your next stop is U of C, or U of S or wherever, where you either stop playing hockey or play the glorified senior hockey in front of 100 people that is U Sports.

Major junior is a meat grinder, one that has always been unfair to all but the top line players. It's a little better now than in the days when the WHL isn't putting 14 and 15 year olds in their lineup to get themselves beaten up, but the irony is that it was the regulations brought in by Hockey Canada that made it slightly less of a meat grinder and now the BCHL wants to be more like major junior.

We've been saying stuff like the above - Junior A will be more appealing to average junior players - for decades and the truth is that major junior still attracts te majority of the best players, while still attracting a lot of the players who might actually be better served playing Junior A.

And finally, part of the reason that players like Celebrini went to the USHL is because of the maintained fiction that Canadian major junior is professional but the USHL is amateur. Or maybe it's just that the NCAA's belief that the athletes coming into their system (certainly in basketball, football, baseball, soccer and hockey) all meet their own standards of 'amateur.'

 

[MeHateHe]

It was successful in that it was around for nearly 30 years and the top half of the league was fairly consistent. They misplayed their hand as the American junior hockey landscape changed, but it was still a better league than you're giving credit

I think the phrase I used - "mixed bag" - was apt. Some good franchises and a lot of really bad ones. But a successful league would have a lot more stability than it had; individual franchises can maintain their own level of excellence but if the league itself isn't good, there won't be overall league stability. Strong structures can make up for individual weaknesses but individual strength cannot overcome strucctural weaknesses.

I've pointed out that the curren BCHL has weak sisters and elite teams. Merritt (I keep picking on Merritt: it's a lovely little town, so Merrittonians, don't take offence) has been mostly terrible throughout its history, but it's been in the league for decades. There have been some relocations over the years, but by and large, the league has been pretty stable. I think you'll find that's the case with most Canadian junior A leagues operating under Hockey Canada over the past three decades.

Some of the former WSHL franchises might have been good organizations, but the league itself was pretty messy.

 

[jetsmooseice]

This is an interesting aspect of this. Junior hockey teams have a tricky dance, straddling a line of connection with the community and high level hockey. Do fans want a team that is elite even if there is no real connection to the community? Or will they put up with less quality if the players are local? The BCHL rule requires just 6 BC players. What's the best mix?

I'm not sure that "local" is especially important. Even in the relatively less competitive MJHL, we are seeing more aggressive recruitment among the more successful teams. The WHL has been that way for years, local boys tend to be the exception and everyone is more or less OK with that. I don't think too many people are expecting the Bonnyville Pontiacs to filled with local kids anymore.

How many of those BCHL teams are operating at the league minimum 6 players anyway? I can't imagine that they are drawing so many out of province recruits that they need to enforce the minimums? Or are they?

 

[Bubbles]

OK, can someone ELI5 what the thinking behind all this is?

I get that BCHL wants to escape Hockey Canada recruitment rules and recruit 16 year olds regardless of where they're from. Questionable, but OK.

But what is the NCAA angle here? The BCHL and to a lesser extent the AJHL already send a pile of players to the NCAA each year. This is supposed to raise those totals? How? By preventing the outflow of NCAA-bound talent to the USHL? Or is there another angle here?

Anything else I'm missing?

There is no NCAA "angle". Like you said, the BCHL has and will provide a large amount of players to the NCAA.

It's more like Hockey Canada treats Junior A hockey like a leper and didn't give the same funding as they would for CHL clubs.

HC is still operating like the 80s or something when now kids have WAY more options than ever before. They'd rather see top end kids like Fantilli, Power and Celebrini go the USHL route instead of making Junior A hockey better in Canada. This is why the BCHL did it. They want to make their league more competitive.

 

[jetsmooseice]

There is no NCAA "angle". Like you said, the BCHL has and will provide a large amount of players to the NCAA.

It's more like Hockey Canada treats Junior A hockey like a leper and didn't give the same funding as they would for CHL clubs.

HC is still operating like the 80s or something when now kids have WAY more options than ever before. They'd rather see top end kids like Fantilli, Power and Celebrini go the USHL route instead of making Junior A hockey better in Canada. This is why the BCHL did it. They want to make their league more competitive.

What kind of funding does the CHL get from Hockey Canada?

Curious to see which way the SJHL and MJHL teams go. Could we also see the small town Jr A teams that aren't part of the BCHL's plans start up a "super B" league?

 

[Just Linda]

I went to a BCHL game last year and there were NCAA scouts at it. I don't think an NCAA scouts has stepped foot in the Gordon Lathlin Centre (OCN Blizzard) or the Whitney Forum (Flin Flon Bombers) in years.

Also, the MJ, AJ, and SJ all have the worst production quality which also hurts them but that's a different debate.

The BCHL brings attention from the next level in the way that the other ones don't get.

What kind of funding does the CHL get from Hockey Canada?

Curious to see which way the SJHL and MJHL teams go. Could we also see the small town Jr A teams that aren't part of the BCHL's plans start up a "super B" league?

SJ and MJ are too far away. SJ is in good financial standing too, there's a lot less pressure on that league. MJ had some conversations about being absorbed by the SJ not too many years ago (never came close) so I imagine they'd be too focused on viability to consider anything.

 

[Bubbles]

What kind of funding does the CHL get from Hockey Canada?

Curious to see which way the SJHL and MJHL teams go. Could we also see the small town Jr A teams that aren't part of the BCHL's plans start up a "super B" league?

There are no exact numbers available, but the CHL clubs are treated as the only model where Canadian players can go, and Junior A an afterthought.

Honestly the SJHL and MJHL are really small compared to the bigger teams in BC/Alberta. All that travel makes no sense either for such small leagues anyways ( I'm talking Junior A as a whole )

Also the "new" BCHL is not Junior A anymore because that's a HC designation. There is a new Junior A league made of newly promoted Junior B and assorted levels but I don't know a single person that ever goes to that type of games.