Baseball Almanac said:Alexander came at the batter with an easy sidearm motion and excellent control of his fastball and curve.
Jan Finkel; SABR said:He was the picture of grace and efficiency-often completing games in ninety minutes-with a smooth, usually sidearm delivery, possessing excellent control of a sneaky fastball and a devastating curve.
The Deseret News; Dec 12 said:Alexander's work in the box has been little short of phenomenal. It was due in large part to his work that the Philadelphia club has been a pennant contender until the closing days of the past few seasons.
BBHOF said:Using a wide variety of breaking pitches, deceptive speed and pinpoint control, Alexander soon found himself being compared to the top pitchers of his era.
Grantland Rice; Reading Eagle; November 8 said:But for cunning, smartness, and control Alexander must take first place {compared to Walter Johnson, Cy Young, and Christy Mathewson}... Above everything else, Alex had one terrific feature to his pitching - he knew just what the batter didn't want - and he put it there to the half inch. No other pitcher ever approached his record control
Johnny Evers said:I would say Alex was top man among hurlers. He knew more about the true art or science of pitching, although Mathewson wasn't far away.
The Pittsburgh Press; Aug 7 said:That a young pitcher should so far surpass all rivals, including the great Mathewson, is one of the many surprises of this year's baseball
Jim Murray; Sarasota Herald Tribune said:No one ever threw a baseball with more subtlety
Damon Runyan (New York American) quoted in The Pittsburgh Press; May 9 said:Whenever we see Grover Cleveland Alexander pitching at top form we conclude that he is the greatest right-handed pitcher in the land, and we cling to that conclusion until Walter Perry Johnson comes along with a line of his best pelting. Then we decide that Walter is the greatest, and we hold to that decision to the day 'Alex' reappears
The Pittsburgh Press; May 9 said:Ball players who have hit against both men - or rather haven't hit against them, for there is never much hitting against Walter or Grover - say that the Nebraskan is the better of the two. They say he has as much 'stuff' and knows how to use it better than Johnson
Wagner also had very good finishes in the HR chase during his tenure with the Pirates. Obviously HR's were rare, but he still stacked up with the best long ball hitters of the dead ball era very well. His HR finishes:
Home Runs
1898 NL 10 (2nd)
1899 NL 7 (6th)
1901 NL 6 (9th)
1902 NL 3 (5th)
1903 NL 5 (9th)
1905 NL 6 (6th)
1907 NL 6 (4th)
1908 NL 10 (2nd)
1909 NL 5 (5th)
1911 NL 9 (8th)
1915 NL 6 (8th)
The more I study the advanced numbers the more it becomes clear that Wagner was the best all around player of the dead ball era. Cobb may have been slightly more valuable on offense but couple the defensive side of the game and the fact that Wagner played the most premium position on the diamond, especially in an era with so many ground balls, he is the better total baseball player in my estimation. It's a very close race but the gap defensively is bigger than offensively.
Consider:
Wagner finished with the highest WAR among all position players a ridiculous 11 times in his career, which overlapped with Cobb for roughly a decade, and Cobb had the good fortune of playing well into the 20's when offense spiked dramatically. Now those are based on league finishes and it should be noted that the AL was generally the stronger of the two (especially once the Yankees became a power house in the 20's), but even if you gave Cobb 1st place finishes for every time he came in 2nd or 3rd, you only come up with an additional 5 to go with his 5 actual 1st place finishes for a total of 10, which is still 1 behind Wagner.
Wagner was worth 123 oWAR over 21 years and was worth 21.3 dWAR = 144.3 compared to Cobb who was valued at 150.9 oWAR and -10.8 dWAR for a total of 140.1.
WAR Position Players WAGNER
1899 NL 5.8 (4th)
1900 NL 6.5 (1st)
1901 NL 7.1 (3rd)
1902 NL 7.3 (1st)
1903 NL 7.6 (1st)
1904 NL 8.3 (1st)
1905 NL 10.2 (1st)
1906 NL 9.3 (1st)
1907 NL 9.0 (1st)
1908 NL 11.5 (1st)
1909 NL 9.2 (1st)
1910 NL 5.2 (3rd)
1911 NL 6.5 (1st)
1912 NL 8.1 (1st)
1915 NL 5.6 (4th)
Career 131.0 (7th)
WAR Position Players COBB
1907 AL 6.8 (2nd)
1908 AL 6.1 (3rd)
1909 AL 9.8 (1st)
1910 AL 10.5 (1st)
1911 AL 10.7 (1st)
1912 AL 9.2 (4th)
1913 AL 7.4 (5th)
1914 AL 5.6 (6th)
1915 AL 9.5 (1st)
1916 AL 8.0 (2nd)
1917 AL 11.3 (1st)
1918 AL 6.6 (2nd)
1919 AL 5.5 (6th)
1921 AL 6.7 (3rd)
1922 AL 6.7 (4th)
1923 AL 5.5 (7th)
1924 AL 5.4 (4th)
1925 AL 5.8 (5th)
1927 AL 4.4 (10th)
Career 151.0 (4th)
Although Ty Cobb is frequently cited as the greatest player of the dead-ball era, some contemporaries regarded Wagner as the better all-around player, and most baseball historians consider Wagner to be the greatest shortstop ever. Cobb himself called Wagner "maybe the greatest star ever to take the diamond.
-Ty Cobb
"At shortstop there is only one candidate, the immortal Honus Wagner. He was just head and shoulders above anyone else in that position. Fellows like xxxxxxxxx and xxxxxx were all great fielders. But Honus could more than out-field all of them. He was perhaps the greatest right-handed hitter of all time. He had remarkably long arms, hams for hands, and just drew the ball to him. xxxxxxx once told me he could have been as good in any position but he made his greatest name as shortstop. He led the National League seven times at bat and he was always up with the leaders when he was in his forties."
-Babe Ruth
Bill James cites Wagner's 1908 season as the greatest single season for any player in baseball history. He notes that the league ERA of 2.35 was the lowest of the dead ball era and about half of the ERAs of modern baseball. Since Wagner hit .354 with 109 RBI in an environment when half as many runs were scored as today, he asks, "if you had a Gold Glove shortstop, like Wagner, who drove in 218 runs, what would he be worth?"
-Bill James, renowned baseball historian
"Acknowledging that there may have been one or two whose talents were greater, there is no one who has ever played the game that I would be more anxious to have on a baseball team."
-Historian / Author Bill James in The Biographical Encyclopedia (2000)
Christy Matthewson asserted that Wagner was the only player he faced that did not have a weakness. Matthewson felt the only way to keep Wagner from hitting was to not pitch to him.
-Christy Matthewson
Hall of Fame manager (undrafted), was remarkably concise when talking about Wagner. "They'd tell ya this feller was great but ...," the Old Perfessor said. "And then they'd tell you what his weakness was. With Wagner, though, there weren't any buts. He was great, period."
-(HOF manager)
"He was the nearest thing to a perfect player no matter where his manager chose to play him."
-(another HOF manager)
"I name Wagner first on my list, not only because he was a great batting champion and base-runner, and also baseball's foremost shortstop - but because Honus could have been first at any other position, with the possible exception of pitcher. In all my career, I never saw such a versatile player."
-(HOF manager) in The Sporting News (December 6, 1955)
"You can have your Cobbs, your Lajoies, your Chases, your Bakers, but I'll take Wagner as my pick of the greatest. He is not only a marvelous mechanical player, but he has the quickest baseball brain I have ever observed."
-HOF manager
Hey bluesfan, can you explain your formula. It seems interesting. Did you make it up or is this something people use?
Also, I thought JAWS was Career (WAR + WAR7) / 2. If so, would your formula just be OPS+ +(JAWS*3)?
Wasn't me
I have always said when asked who's the greatest baseball player you ever saw, all-around complete, and it was Willie Mays. I tell a story about Mays and he agrees. You always see the World Series catch, over the shoulder in centerfield, but that was not his greatest catch. The greatest catch he ever made and certainly one that would fulfill the answer was in Ebbets Field against the Dodgers and the Dodgers had the bases loaded, 2 outs, bottom of the 9th inning, trailing by one run, and I remember vividly we had a young third basemen, blonde, out of Oklahoma named Bobby Morgan.
When Bobby Morgan came up, as soon as he hit the ball in the left centerfield gap, your mind said, "Double. Two runs. Dodgers are gonna win." Mays was running as hard as he could run which was very hard. He suddenly dived at the ball and his body was like an arrow. He was fully extended, he was about a foot off the ground. Now in those days, you had three considerations:
Number one. The warning track was not some rubberized warning track, it was gravel.
Number two. The wall was concrete.
And number three. Mays was not wearing a helmet, he was wearing a baseball cap.
So he's extended, he catches the ball maybe a foot off the ground, he bounces on the gravel headfirst into the base of the concrete wall and rolls over on his back and his hands are on his chest.
For that split second, nobody know where that ball is, everything is frozen in time. Henry Thompson was the leftfielder and Henry walked over, bent down, took the ball out of Mays' glove 'cause Mays was out like a light. He held the ball up in the air and the umpire said out and that was it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_IrvinHe was approached in 1945 by Brooklyn Dodgers executive Branch Rickey about being signed for the major leagues, but Irvin felt he was not ready to play at that level so soon after leaving the service.
MONTE IRVIN
Monford Merrill Irvin
Inducted to the Hall of Fame in: 1973
Primary team: Newark Eagles
Primary position: Left Fielder
Monte Irvin was not the first African-American player in the modern major leagues, but of all the talented players who made the perilous trip from the Negro leagues to the big leagues in the late 1940s, Irvin may have been the best.
“Monte was the choice of all Negro National and American League club owners to serve as the No. 1 player to join a white major league team,†said Hall of Famer Effa Manley, owner of the Newark Eagles. “We all agreed, in meeting, he was the best qualified by temperament, character ability, sense of loyalty, morals, age, experiences and physique to represent us as the first black player to enter the white majors since the Walker brothers back in the 1880s. Of course, Branch Rickey lifted Jackie Robinson out of Negro ball and made him the first, and it turned out just fine.â€
It also turned out fine for Irvin, who starred for eight seasons in the majors with the Giants and the Cubs before being elected to the Hall of Fame in 1973. “I always respected Monte Irvin as much as any player I played with,†said teammate Bobby Thomson, whose homer in the ninth inning of Game 3 of the historic 1951 National League playoff series against the Dodgers lifted Irvin and the Giants into the World Series. “He would show up and do the job every day; one of the strong guys on the ball club.â€
Irvin, born Feb. 25, 1919 in Haleburg, Ala., was a four-sport athlete in high school and began playing professional baseball while in college under an assumed name to keep his amateur status. He joined the Newark Eagles and quickly became an outstanding all-around player. He could hit for power, was a strong fielder at shortstop and could steal bases. One of the league’s biggest stars, he was elected to four East-West all-star games. After asking for a raise and being denied, Irvin took off for Mexico and won the Triple Crown there.
He returned to the Eagles in 1946 where he won his second batting title and helped win the Negro World Series. In 1949, the New York Giants bought Irvin’s contract from the Eagles. In 1951 as New York’s regular left fielder, he sparked the Giants to win the pennant, hitting .312 with 24 home runs and a National League-best 121 RBI, en route to a third-place finish in the MVP voting. Although the Giants lost to the Yankees in the World Series, Irvin batted .458 in the six-game series.
He played for the Giants for seven seasons, was elected to the 1952 All-Star Game and won a World Series with them in 1954. After an ankle injury, spent his final season with the Cubs in 1956. He finished with a .293 career batting average, 97 doubles, 99 home runs, and 443 RBIs in the major leagues.
Following his playing career, Irvin became a scout for the New York Mets and later spent 17 years as a public relations specialist for the commissioner’s office under Commissioner Bowie Kuhn. Of Irvin's character, Kuhn once wrote, “If they ever decide to start the Hall of Fame all over and place decency above all else, Monte would be the first man in.â€
In 1973, Irvin was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame by the Special Committee on Negro Leagues.
“Baseball is a game you’d play for nothing,†Irvin said. “And I am so happy the Lord gave me a little ability, because it allowed me to meet a lot of good people and see so many exciting places.â€
"I always respected Monte Irvin as much as any player I played with... He would show up and do the job every day; one of the strong guys on the ball club. " Bobby Thomson
CAREER STATS
ESSENTIAL STATS
Year Inducted: 1973 See 5 more from 1973
Primary Team: Newark Eagles See 4 more from Newark Eagles
Position Played: Left Fielder See 19 more from this position
Bats: Right See 163 more right handed batters
Throws: Right See 220 more right handed throwers
Birth place: Columbia, Alabama See 11 more from Alabama
Birth year: 1919 See 1 more born this year
Died: 2016, Houston, Texas
Played for:
Newark Eagles (1937-1942)
New York Giants (1949-1955)
Chicago Cubs (1956)
CAREER AT A GLANCE
...
Batting Average
.293
OPS
.858
On Base %
.383
Slugging %
.475
http://baseballhall.org/hof/johnson-walter"We idolized that guy. Just sat there and watched him pitch. Down around the knees—woosh! One after the other. He had something all right. I pitched against a lot of guys and saw a lot of guys throw, and I haven’t seen one yet come close to as fast as he was. " Lefty Grove
Addie Joss could not have been more right when he predicted “That young fellow is another Cy Young. I never saw a kid with more than he displayed. Of course, he is still green, but when he has a little experience he should be one of the greatest pitchers that ever broke into the game. He has terrific speed and a motion which does not put much strain on his arm and this will all improve as he goes alongâ€.
Walter Johnson came from humble beginnings, the son of a Kansas farmer. It wasn’t until his parents moved the family out west that he began to pick up the trade that would make him one of the most recognizable stars the game has ever seen. Johnson was a natural from the moment he stepped on to the southern California sandlots "From the first time I held a ball, it settled in the palm of my right hand as though it belonged there and, when I threw it, ball, hand and wrist, and arm and shoulder and back seemed to all work together."
Labor Day weekend of 1908, Johnson’s sophomore campaign in the junior circuit, saw one of the most dominating performances of his career. The twenty year-old Johnson started three consecutive games, September 4, 5 and 7, and shutout the New York Yankees in each of those contests giving up six, four and two hits respectively—truly one of the most remarkable pitching performances of any generation.
In 1911, famed sportswriter Grantland Rice popularized the nickname “The Big Train†in referring to Johnson. At a time when trains were the fastest things known to man, Ty Cobb recalled Johnson’s fastball as “Just speed, raw speed, blinding speed, too much speedâ€. “The Big Train†added to his arsenal when he developed a curveball in the early 1910s and put together a string of ten straight twenty win seasons. During his career, Johnson amassed eleven seasons with a sub 2.00 ERA and completed 531 of his 666 career starts.
In 1924, the Senators made the World Series for the first time. After playing on very poor teams for nearly two decades, Johnson finally got the opportunity to shine on baseball’s grandest stage. In the 9th inning of Game 7, Senators skipper Bucky Harris called on Johnson in relief “You're the best we've got, Walter, We've got to win or lose with youâ€- and win they did. Johnson blanked the Giants for four innings and earned the victory and Washington’s only World Series championship.
DID YOU KNOW
THAT WALTER JOHNSON'S FINAL MAJOR LEAGUE APPEARANCE CAME AS A PINCH-HITTER IN THE SAME GAME IN WHICH BABE RUTH HIT HIS THEN-RECORD 60TH HOME RUN OF THE SEASON ON SEPT. 30, 1927?
ESSENTIAL STATS
Year Inducted: 1936 See 4 more from 1936
Primary Team: Washington Senators See 5 more from Washington Senators
Position Played: Pitcher See 75 more from this position
Bats: Right See 163 more right handed batters
Throws: Right See 220 more right handed throwers
Birth place: Humboldt, Kansas See 1 more from Kansas
Birth year: 1887 See 4 more born this year
Died: 1946, Washington, District of Columbia
Played for:
Washington Senators (1907-1927)
Managed:
Washington Senators (1929-1932)
Cleveland Indians (1933-1935)
CAREER AT A GLANCE
Games
802
Hits
4913
Runs
1902
Innings Pitched
5914.1
Wins
417
Losses
279
Winning %
.599
Games Started
666
ERA
2.17
Complete Games
531
Shutouts
110
WHIP
1.061
Saves
34
Earned Runs
1424
Walks
1363
Strikeouts
3509
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/31469/hall-of-100-best-pitcher-of-all-timeWhen Bill James ranked pitchers a decade ago in his "New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract," he had Walter Johnson at the top of his list,
http://www.billjamesonline.com/the_five/Thinking that way, I think I would forget about the eras and positions and do what the founders of the HOF did -- draft the best available player: Babe Ruth and Walter Johnson.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_scoreGame Score is a metric devised by Bill James to determine the strength of a pitcher in any particular baseball game. ... Walter Johnson had the most 100-point game scores with four apiece. Johnson had two in 1918, one in 1919, and a fourth in 1926;
http://www.hardballtimes.com/the-all-time-best-pitchers/I’ve spent the last three weeks listing and discussing the best major league everyday players since 1900 using a special version of Bill James’ Win Shares called Win Shares Above Bench. ... As before, I will rely heavily upon Fangraphs and Baseball Reference for little factoids about each player. I’ll also be referring to some basic pitching stats, such as strikeouts, walks, ERA and something called Batting Average on Ball in Play (the proportion of batted balls that fall in for hits, not including home runs).
The Top Ten
1. Walter Johnson (387 WSAB/560 WS): In this year’s Hardball Times Annual, David Gassko ranked the all-time best pitchers using something called Pitching Wins Above Replacement. David’s system is similar to Win Shares Above Bench, but it differs in one significant way: it adjusts for the increasing level of competition over time. It gives current pitchers credit for succeeding in a tougher environment (better training, medical support and a larger pool of talent to draw upon).
As far as I know, that is the only legitimate way you can develop a system that doesn’t place the Big Train first among the post-1900 pitchers (Johnson is second in PWAR). Pitching from 1907 through 1927, he was among the top three league leaders in strikeouts fifteen times, ERA twelve times and shutouts eleven times. He placed in the top 10 youngest players twice at the beginning of his career, and the top 10 oldest players four times at the end of his career. I won’t bother quoting all the superlatives associated with the man; he was simply awesome, dude.