When to extend Byfield?

[Lt Dan]

they should extended Byfield on Febraury 23rd at 4:52 pm

 

[johnjm22]

If he wouldn't have been literally robbed of two assists (there's seriously no reason for it, these aren't 'almosts', one was taken away and one was a clear touch and both were primary) he'd be on a 55 point pace right this minute so it's not out of the question as some others seem to think.

This isn't specifically at you, but we're starting to get into Jack Johnson territory with these types of statements.

Every time JJ would be on the ice for a minus, we'd always make an excuse "well actually it wasn't his fault because x, y and z." With QB it's "well he should have x amount of points right now."

I'm officially concerned.

The potential in his game is obvious, but there's just something missing right now. The way he's playing he's going to burn himself out just like he did last year.

 

[bland]

He has one non-empty net point so far this season playing on the top line.

His value has never been lower, but there's a good chance it'll be lower after the next game. Then lower after the game after that, and so on.

Given that, he's probably still best advised to wait until the season's over, ask for a contract comparable to Stutzle, then after everyone stops laughing, sign a one-year prove-it deal and pray he finally turns things around next season.

I don't want to say "bust", yet, but he's actually worse than I thought he'd be when the Kings originally drafted him over Tim. What a disastrous pick for this team.

This is the problem with basing any sort of opinion on statistics.

Byfield has played an integral role in multiple goals in which he didn't receive "points", and was given "points" on plays that were a flukey bounce and an empty netter. The stats alone aren't showing the progress made in his strength, board battle wins, skating speed, zone entries, puck retrievals - all aapects of his game in which he is MUCH better at now than at this point last year. Keep in mind that he is being used primarily as a forechecker and puck hound winger for a line that is seeing its two "stars" struggle at 5x5 at the moment.

Byfield has always been a project. It was the rare promise of ability plus size and speed package that made him so attractive in that #2 spot, not the promise of initial returns. I know a lot of fellow Kings fans didn't agree with that assessment and felt he could or should contribute immediately and are holding their judgement against him, but I never felt his game was going to be a smooth transition once he played against men.

Personally, I don't expect a big jump of his numbers for another two years. 45 points will likely be the benchmark this year.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

This isn't specifically at you, but we're starting to get into Jack Johnson territory with these types of statements.

Every time JJ would be on the ice for a minus, we'd always make an excuse "well actually it wasn't his fault because x, y and z." With QB it's "well he should have x amount of points right now."

I'm officially concerned.

The potential in his game is obvious, but there's just something missing right now. The way he's playing he's going to burn himself out just like he did last year.

It's fine, if they don't count they don't count, I'm just saying you can't look at the player and say there's literally nothing happening.

And if you can, it's not worth discussion.

But I'm willing to bet at game 30 he's got at least 20 points, which would be the above-mentioned pace. I just don't understand people throwing the baby out with the bathwater here 6 games in.

 

[King'sPawn]

This isn't specifically at you, but we're starting to get into Jack Johnson territory with these types of statements.

Every time JJ would be on the ice for a minus, we'd always make an excuse "well actually it wasn't his fault because x, y and z." With QB it's "well he should have x amount of points right now."

A lot of those defenses were valid when he'd get a minus. He had his issues, but not every minus was his fault.

It's like when people blamed MacDermid for every goal against when he was on the ice. It's true in the sense that he was there, but he wasn't the issue.

This isn't to say Byfield is Johnson nor MacDermid - just that people look at raw numbers and draw conclusions, rightly or wrongly, without paying attention to what's happening on the ice.

If you see him playing well, then I don't see what anyone's complaining about, aside from having numbers to brag about on the Internet (I know it's fun, but if a player looks good, why do people get pissed?)

If you don't see ANY qualities in his play, then there's probably nothing to discuss and we'll just disagree.

If you expect more out of a second overall pick - it's fair. He's an unconventional project taken second overall, but I think he's done well considering the circumstances he's been put in.

I agree with bland that 45 points for this season is reasonable. That's also what I said during the offseason. He should have a couple more points (he was literally on the scoresheet for Danault's goal then removed, along with another assist that was missed). He should have 4 points, which in 6 games paces for 54 points over 82 games.

I won't blow smoke and say he's doing better than expected, but these are numbers and expectations we literally were discussing during the offseason. It's like people expected him to surpass expectations, which leaves us with several people upset at just numbers and saying playing well isn't good enough.

 

[bland]

Its also worth noting that Byfield really should be put up the middle again ASAP. The Dubois acquisition has made it very difficult for either Byfield or Turcotte (who should be a full timer right now) to fulfill the roles they were drafted to perform.

Byfield is far from the first winger to struggle playing with Kopitar. Its a unique set of responsibilities for a player just finding his way into the league. So many of the risky chances that lead to fatter stats are nipped in the bud in favor of defensive solidity. Possession is favored over rushes. The matchups dictate more thinking than reacting. Anze himself has seen what are really mediocre numbers for a #1 center throughout his career for those reasons. Hard to expect a kid to move into that role without a lengthy learning process.

That being said, the biggest issue here is the expectation for young men to contribute immediately to what management thinks is a contender. Mistakes are amplified, organic growth isn't measured by personal play but by team results. Its the same problems dogging the Rangers kids. Too much at risk to allow for normal growing pains, and the pressure mounts. Its an inadvisable developmental plan, especially considering how unlikely it is for any real success anyway.

 

[Bandit]

Doesn't matter what the Kings do with Byfield. They've already f***ed this up so badly that there's no chance they're winning shit with this collection of misfits.

Quote me.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Its also worth noting that Byfield really should be put up the middle again ASAP. The Dubois acquisition has made it very difficult for either Byfield or Turcotte (who should be a full timer right now) to fulfill the roles they were drafted to perform.

Which center will he be replacing?

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Doesn't matter what the Kings do with Byfield. They've already f***ed this up so badly that there's no chance they're winning shit with this collection of misfits.

Quote me.

Done

 

[King'sPawn]

That being said, the biggest issue here is the expectation for young men to contribute immediately to what management thinks is a contender. Mistakes are amplified, organic growth isn't measured by personal play but by team results. Its the same problems dogging the Rangers kids. Too much at risk to allow for normal growing pains, and the pressure mounts. Its an inadvisable developmental plan, especially considering how unlikely it is for any real success anyway.

To add to this, this is what we're now seeing with Zegras. He played his game and built his confidence to work his skillset into the NHL. Now that he's experienced and getting numbers, he's getting benched for needing to work on his team game.

Which, to me, is easier to add to what you already know, instead of trying to add what you're trying to figure out.

Ideally, neither player sees reduction on ice time. But there are added responsibilities and expectations as you grow.

With Zegras, he has to learn to add responsibility to his already honed skillset. Byfield is having to hone his skillset after spending the past couple seasons needing to learn to be responsible first.

The reason why this is problematic is because he's already had to spend time being a grinder, his production has been put on hold and he was playing not to make a mistake, leading to deferring behaviors and timid play, which is a lot of what we saw last year.

I won't say the Kings "ruined" Byfield. I will say that there has been evidence of the Kings not reliably developing top-tier forwards in the same vein they have with defensemen and (up until recently) goaltending. Kempe and Toffoli are the best that have come out of the system since 2006. It needs to be more sustainable and reliable.

There's this risk aversion to challenging players, particularly up front. Bjornfot and Anderson both played alongside Doughty as rookies. Byfield, Kaliyev, and any forward drafted during Blake's regime not named Laferriere, has been relegated to a grinder role.

And we see how well Laferriere is playing when he gets that immediate trust and placement with skill players to succeed.

 

[No Name The Nameless]

I see some good there, but I see more from Lizotte. I was never a Byfield guy but I never once considered that he would be as ineffective as he is after 3 years. Am I wrong to say that he does 4th line stuff? After all this time, I’m still shocked when I see him make a nice play.

 

[King'sPawn]

I see some good there, but I see more from Lizotte. I was never a Byfield guy but I never once considered that he would be as ineffective as he is after 3 years. Am I wrong to say that he does 4th line stuff? After all this time, I’m still shocked when I see him make a nice play.

I mean, he had to spend the last few years learning to be a grinder. That's been the argument and a criticism of the Kings development - Byfield, Vilardi, Kaliyev, etc were all put in grinding roles and had initial struggles to varying degrees.

Many were ready to put Vilardi out to pasture 14 months ago, too. Then he started becoming the player many of us thought he would be.

 

[Maynard]

Quote me.

 

[AbsentMojo]

That being said, the biggest issue here is the expectation for young men to contribute immediately to what management thinks is a contender. Mistakes are amplified, organic growth isn't measured by personal play but by team results. Its the same problems dogging the Rangers kids. Too much at risk to allow for normal growing pains, and the pressure mounts. Its an inadvisable developmental plan, especially considering how unlikely it is for any real success anyway.

Kings and Rangers are the empirical evidence on what not to do with high draft picks. You cant develop and contend at the same time for the reasons you mentioned. So I would be for trading Byfield at this point. I do not think he will develop into a strong enough player in the window available with this misguided retry around 11 and 8. Byfield for Wallstedt would be something I'd look at.

 

[bland]

Kings and Rangers are the empirical evidence on what not to do with high draft picks. You cant develop and contend at the same time for the reasons you mentioned. So I would be for trading Byfield at this point. I do not think he will develop into a strong enough player in the window available with this misguided retry around 11 and 8. Byfield for Wallstedt would be something I'd look at.

Ssh, I have a little secret for you...

There is no window here. Its just a polaroid from 10 years ago.

 

[AbsentMojo]

Ssh, I have a little secret for you...

There is no window here. Its just a polaroid from 10 years ago.

haha.. good one. I guess im saying, if you're gonna trade pieces like Faber, Vilardi and firsts, why stop there... Wallstedt has a solid season under his belt in the A and could plug the goalie problem affordably and be around for the next rebuild.

 

[KingsHockey24]

Never.

 

[Sol]

Trade him next season for an area of need if he doesn’t have a substantially better season than the previous one. There’s way too much risk for the Kings to invest more time into him and he’d be better suited for a lottery team that allows him to play top 6 center minutes.

If he doesn’t do much better this year than last year than he’s almost certainly a bust.

 

[AbsentMojo]

Trade him next season for an area of need if he doesn’t have a substantially better season than the previous one. There’s way too much risk for the Kings to invest more time into him and he’d be better suited for a lottery team that allows him to play top 6 center minutes.

If he doesn’t do much better this year than last year than he’s almost certainly a bust.

I think thats why you move him now before he presents more evidence that he's a D cup

 

[Sol]

I think thats why you move him now before he presents more evidence that he's a D cup

I’d wait for this year to pass even though his value would take a hit. But I wouldn’t be opposed to be moving him now either if there was a good offer for a goalie imo. Byfield just seems redundant.

 

[SmytheKing]

Byfield for Wallstedt would be something I'd look at.

Yeah but MIN would laugh at you. Not a chance in hell you get Wallstedt for Byfield straight up right now.

 

[AbsentMojo]

Yeah but MIN would laugh at you. Not a chance in hell you get Wallstedt for Byfield straight up right now.

I doubt they would laugh, they'd probably ask for another piece or pick. My general point is the tiny window of Kopi's viability probably will not coincide with Byfield's emergence. And given that Blake has been mortgaging the future for the present, it seems to make sense to move him.

 

[SmytheKing]

I doubt they would laugh, they'd probably ask for another piece or pick. My general point is the tiny window of Kopi's viability probably will not coincide with Byfield's emergence. And given that Blake has been mortgaging the future for the present, it seems to make sense to move him.

Well that I 100% agree with. I don't think moving him is the right choice, but based on how they're "building" this team, it's the logical move...and probably one they should have thought about doing a year or two ago.

 

[Kurrilino]

He has one non-empty net point so far this season playing on the top line.

His value has never been lower, but there's a good chance it'll be lower after the next game. Then lower after the game after that, and so on.

Half of Kempe's 40+ goals last year were empty net goals, also this year his 2 goals are empty net.
So what's the point here?

If we start counting only game impact points, Kopitar scores 9 points per season.
Also Fiala has the Gretzky syndrome, where he is not part in any kind or shape of the game but still gets rewarded assists.

Those are the things i would look at first before blaming a youngster for not scoring the way you want it, being forced to play a style that goes against his natural abilities

 

[ORRFForever]

He looks pretty darn good, tonight, 2 periods in - from a Canadian watching the Kings beat my Leafs. He just needs to get his shots to the net and plant his bug butt in front of the net more.