TheGreenTBer
shut off the power while I take a big shit
- Apr 30, 2021
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What does Draisaitl need to go down as the greatest ever number 2?
- Thread starter Matsun
- Start date
The Panther
Registered User
I think I speak for most Oiler fans when I say that we love Leon dearly, and I for one love to pieces his one-timers from the bottom of the circle.
It also has to be said that my heart skips a beat every single time he has the puck on his stick inside the Oilers' defensive zone. There is something weirdly lackadaisical about Draisaitl's effort in moving the puck out of his own zone.
If he's making a great stretch pass to someone in the clear, then, yes, he's amazing. But when he has to hold the puck a few seconds and make a simple play up the boards to get it out... he never does. Invariably, he tries drop-passes, behind the back passes, three-foot passes to a teammate right in front of the net (who often doesn't see the pass coming), or passes that are easily picked off by the opposition.
It also has to be said that my heart skips a beat every single time he has the puck on his stick inside the Oilers' defensive zone. There is something weirdly lackadaisical about Draisaitl's effort in moving the puck out of his own zone.
If he's making a great stretch pass to someone in the clear, then, yes, he's amazing. But when he has to hold the puck a few seconds and make a simple play up the boards to get it out... he never does. Invariably, he tries drop-passes, behind the back passes, three-foot passes to a teammate right in front of the net (who often doesn't see the pass coming), or passes that are easily picked off by the opposition.
Steven Toast
Registered User
I find this to be a very hyperbolic statement. Draisaitl is poor defensively mostly due to poor back checking and lost coverage when the other team has the puck. This is an attention to detail thing, and something he has improved significantly this year. When he has the puck he can be counted on to get it out of the zone with regularity.
I do not share the same panic when Drai has the puck in his own zone, I actually relax and feel assured that the puck is to remain in Oilers possession for the next sequence.
Professor What
Registered User
Staniowski
Registered User
It has nothing to do with new being better than old. I wouldn't even consider Mikita to be very "old"; I watched him play when I was young.
But he wasn't as good as players like MacKinnon, Kucherov, Malkin, Sakic, Forsberg. In fact, he wasn't even close to these players.
As an example, Mikita couldn't make Team Canada in his early and mid-thirties (he was invited in '72 as a replacement for Derek Sanderson); and he would've been in tough to do so at C even in the 1960s, with Beliveau, Keon, Richard, Delvecchio, Ullman.
Why do you think Mikita was a better player than MacKinnon, Malkin, Kucherov?
(He wasn't).
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MadLuke
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- Jan 18, 2011
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97 pts in his last 54 playoff games.... (1.80ppg)
73 pts in his last 39 playoff games... (1.87ppg)
They are scoring like it is 1984.
Gretzky-Lemieux from 88 to 93 in the playoff scored at a 1.92-1.73 ppg pace.
Mc-Drai from 2020 to 2024 are doing it at 1.85 and 1.79ppg...., about the same.
For a while it felt like we would never see something like that ever again.
73 pts in his last 39 playoff games... (1.87ppg)
They are scoring like it is 1984.
Gretzky-Lemieux from 88 to 93 in the playoff scored at a 1.92-1.73 ppg pace.
Mc-Drai from 2020 to 2024 are doing it at 1.85 and 1.79ppg...., about the same.
For a while it felt like we would never see something like that ever again.
JianYang
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- Sep 29, 2017
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So the ones that are criticizing draisaitl seem to be asking him to play an obscene amount of ice time and then cover the entire ice with or without the puck, while producing historic offensive numbers.
It bears repeating, the Oilers have some alarming flaws. But mcdavid and draisaitl are not it. You can't expect them to do everything to cover the extent of those fatal flaws.
It bears repeating, the Oilers have some alarming flaws. But mcdavid and draisaitl are not it. You can't expect them to do everything to cover the extent of those fatal flaws.
Professor What
Registered User
Your argument has everything to do with new being better than old when you try to state as fact (which you can't) that Mikita wouldn't have won a scoring title if he were born ten years later. You're also reaching when you talk about him not making the best team in the world past his prime as evidence that he wasn't as good.
Ultimately, the reason you think that say, MacKinnon, is better than Mikita is that you think there's a stronger league today and that more recent players are universally better than original six era guys. That's fine, even if I believe flawed. You can't just state your opinion as fact and expect everyone to fall in line though.
Yes, Mikita was better than the players you mentioned. Most of them aren't defensive stalwarts. Mikita was while being an offensive dynamo and playmaker extraordinaire. He was twice voted MVP, which specifically means being recognized as more valuable to the Hawks than Bobby Hull was. That's the same Bobby Hull who's arguably the best in history at his position. You can try to argue MacKinnon over Mikita, but you're going to be very lonely (at least at this point).
I'm not going to try to talk you out of your position. You've got some unorthodox views, and I know I'd be wasting my breath. I will say though that you can't definitely say what I believe or what others believe. Most people here probably think you're wrong, and a lot of them probably wouldn't have even addressed you over this.
MadLuke
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- Jan 18, 2011
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that seem to cut an important part, when he say player before him were better:
Professor What
Registered User
Well, it's just compounded when you add the subsequent part to it. I suspect that the closer we theoretically move Mikita to the current day, the worse he'd expect him to fare.
Drai has to win cups, bottom line. Everyone wants to talk about his point totals in the playoffs without discussing quality of competition. LA Kings 3 times? The Covid Blackhawks and Jets? Everyone is so quick to crown this dude. He’s a great player, but I’m not sold.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
MadLuke
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- Jan 18, 2011
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McDavid with 96 in 61 games could do it before Kurri 67 and take that 4th spot.
How many players in history have 3 back to back playoffs as good as Drai's are?
How many players in history have 3 back to back playoffs as good as Drai's are on a per game basis?
This is ignoring his 5 100+ point seasons (would be 6 without a shortened covid year).
I honestly have no idea where Draisaitl ends up being ranked all-time, but it could be very, very high.
How many players in history have 3 back to back playoffs as good as Drai's are on a per game basis?
This is ignoring his 5 100+ point seasons (would be 6 without a shortened covid year).
I honestly have no idea where Draisaitl ends up being ranked all-time, but it could be very, very high.
Nothing he will never be the greatest #2
Messier
Forsberg
Malkin
Fedorov
All had more success than he did.
Messier
Forsberg
Malkin
Fedorov
All had more success than he did.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
Overtaking Fedorov seems inevitable at this point. If he's not already there.
Decent chance he overtakes Forsberg and Malkin too.
Messier is unlikely. They're about as far away as you can get style and career wise.
Steven Toast
Registered User
And Drai's career should not be talked about in the past tense.
MadLuke
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- Jan 18, 2011
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Agree, the guy going on the conference final again, scoring at we are numb to it now but absolutely crazy 24 pts in 12 games rate, 28 years old but did not start playing big minute at 19 with long playoff right away at all, with Covid, etc... not that high of mileage on him, medicine for millionaires and sport science keep evolving and athlete seem to age quite well.
What if he keeps that level for 4 seasons and win cups... Messier we must admit has quite the career but a lot of his best moment were has a number 1, same can be said for Forsberg Hart season, Malkin Hart season... but Drai prime could be quite something.
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Matsun
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- Aug 15, 2010
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The years Messier played with Gretzky are the ones to compare to Drai and I think Drai is pretty close to that player. When Gretzky got traded Messier became a number 1 so I wouldn't compare from that point on. I think Draisaitl is close to all the players you listed as a number 2, but he is not close to Messier as a player if that makes sense? What makes Drai so special is how he has been able to consistently preform at an top 5 in the world level and several times outperform his teams best player over a very long period while staying healthy. Here are their top 10 scoring finishes:
Drai:
2016-17 NHL 77 (8th)
2018-19 NHL 105 (4th)
2019-20 NHL 110 (1st)
2020-21 NHL 84 (2nd)
2021-22 NHL 110 (4th)
2022-23 NHL 128 (2nd)
2023-24 NHL 106 (7th)
Forsberg:
1995-96 NHL 116 (5th)
1997-98 NHL 91 (2nd)
1998-99 NHL 97 (4th)
2000-01 NHL 89 (9th)
2002-03 NHL 106 (1st)
Malkin:
2007-08 NHL 106 (2nd)
2008-09 NHL 113 (1st)
2011-12 NHL 109 (1st)
2017-18 NHL 98 (4th)
Messier (behind Gretzky):
1982-83 NHL 106 (7th)
1986-87 NHL 107 (3rd)
1987-88 NHL 111 (5th)
Fedorov:
1993-94 NHL 120 (2nd)
1995-96 NHL 107 (9th)
Playoff PPG as number 2:
Draisaitl 1.66
Messier 1.32
Forsberg 1.16
Malkin 1.02
Fedorov 1.01
The other players besides Drai obviously won a ton so that is a big edge for them, but since Drai currently has the 2nd highest PPG in playoff history I think we all know that it's not his fault that he hasn't won yet. Forsberg and Fedorov also have a big edge in defense and so does Messier to a lesser extent.
MadLuke
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- Jan 18, 2011
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The big variable of being a number 2 is not having access to the best wingers of the team.
I am not sure how much it applies to Forsberg career, the few time he played mostly full season it was almost always with the Avs best winger from memory, Lemieux-Kamensky, Tanguay-Hedjuk.
Drai when he play with McDavid does not really apply obviously, other way around usual even but to take Malkin in example, for one of the best offensive center, outside peak James Neal and when Kessel played a bit with him, it is not glorious, sometime quite good (some time with Rust playing well, last juice of a Sykora or something, but the low were low for someone compared to all time first line center), all that talk about Malkin doing better when Crosby missing (not sure how true it was) but a lot of it could just be, better winger in general when Crosby not there.
I am not sure how much it applies to Forsberg career, the few time he played mostly full season it was almost always with the Avs best winger from memory, Lemieux-Kamensky, Tanguay-Hedjuk.
Drai when he play with McDavid does not really apply obviously, other way around usual even but to take Malkin in example, for one of the best offensive center, outside peak James Neal and when Kessel played a bit with him, it is not glorious, sometime quite good (some time with Rust playing well, last juice of a Sykora or something, but the low were low for someone compared to all time first line center), all that talk about Malkin doing better when Crosby missing (not sure how true it was) but a lot of it could just be, better winger in general when Crosby not there.
The 68-69 has been outlined by another guy in the past here as Phil loaded up with lines of 4-2-6 in a 10-0 win and then a line of 1-2- in another 7-0 home win then had a single goal in the next 2 road games against the Leafs.
sort of the same story in the next round against the Habs.
First 2 games against the Habs in Montreal he gets a big donut then scores a 2-3-5 in the first home game a 5-0 win against the Habs.
Then he is held off the scoresheet and is minus 1 in the next home game.
He does somewhat redeem his home/road big game to no show split in the last 2 games at least.
Game 5 he has a ES and PP assist but is -2 in a 4-2 loss to the Habs.
then he does have an ES assist in the final loss of the series that went 2-1 but he was on the ice for the GWG for the Habs.
So while on the surface his stat line looks impressive it's not really what is seems.
I would consider Draisatl to be the better overall playoff performer right now and that gap is only going to widen IMO.
Bobby Orr won the Smythe the other 2 years that Phil led the playoffs in scoring and obviously was the straw that stirred the drink.
Draisatl has been McDavid's equal in the playoffs.
TheGoldenJet
Registered User
Win another Ross, or start making an effort in the D zone, to even enter the discussion I would think.
Hockeyville USA
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