HF Habs: Trevor Timmins (Part 13)

[Vachon23]

There were many rumors of his dad interfering in his development. Not sure how true but it was reported quite often.

Yes Galchenyuk biggest enemy in his development was his dad

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

There were many rumors of his dad interfering in his development. Not sure how true but it was reported quite often.

True. At least in the minors.

And with Therrien playing him on the third line, I believe his dad was not helping the situation. If true, at a minimum he was fueling Chuck's anger towards the coach. And Therrien of course was not a communicator. He'd just throw Chuck on the third line wing while putting DD on the first. It made absolutely no sense but that's what he'd do.

That's where a Robinson would've been really, really helpful.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yes Galchenyuk biggest enemy in his development was his dad

No.

His biggest enemy was the idiot playing him on the third while putting Desharnais on the first. We saw that over and over again.

Chuck's dad was an idiot and didn't help. But he didn't make the lineups.

 

[Vachon23]

No.

His biggest enemy was the idiot playing him on the third while putting Desharnais on the first. We saw that over and over again.

Chuck's dad was an idiot and didn't help. But he didn't make the lineups.

We will simply don’t agree on that subject

 

[Naslundforever]

No.

His biggest enemy was the idiot playing him on the third while putting Desharnais on the first. We saw that over and over again.

Chuck's dad was an idiot and didn't help. But he didn't make the lineups.

I always felt what held him back was his knees bending backwards and opposite his momentum while skating + the inability to move his hands and feet concurrently, as if they shared ball joints.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

We will simply don’t agree on that subject

Nobody disputes his dad was a clown. You’re totally right in that.

But that didn’t prevent him from being drafted 3rd. It didn’t prevent him from scoring at a top ten player pace when given the opportunity.

He simply didn’t get the opportunity to play on the first. He was behind David Desharnais- a player who was inferior in every single way. Therrien did that.

 

[The Great Weal]

Injuries are what really killed him. He was never the same after the hit with Kopitar. And Julien did him no favours either.

So Galchenyuk was dog shit after the Habs only because of injuries but the Habs still ruined him. Make it make sense. Either his injuries ruined him which has nothing to do with coaching, or he’s someone who never understood the game as per his 50 coaches that tried to help him.

Didn’t you also say he’d be a 90 point player if he was developed properly?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I always felt what held him back was his knees bending backwards and opposite his momentum while skating + the inability to move his hands and feet concurrently, as if they shared ball joints.

Well, in a sense you might be right… those knees didn’t hold up well when he collided knee on knee with Kopitar.

 

[Naslundforever]

Well, in a sense you might be right… those knees didn’t hold up well when he collided knee on knee with Kopitar.

Didn’t mean to link these things though (sry if perceived that way), I’d never poke fun at a guy getting injured.

 

[Vachon23]

Nobody disputes his dad was a clown. You’re totally right in that.

But that didn’t prevent him from being drafted 3rd. It didn’t prevent him from scoring at a top ten player pace when given the opportunity.

He simply didn’t get the opportunity to play on the first. He was behind David Desharnais- a player who was inferior in every single way. Therrien did that.

I’m saying the development was good under MB, Leblanc, McCarron, DLR and Tinordi should have been NHLer but in Galchenyuk case, the biggest problem was himself and his entourage

 

[EXPOS123]

"It's not management's fault"
"He has to earn it"
"He doesn't want it enough"
"The cream rises to the top"

Then we'd play David Desharnais on the first line...

I heard this nonsense over and over for a decade while our thoroughly incompetent management stunted players and produced next to zero from the draft.

The Montreal Canadiens were a textbook example of what not to do. A textbook example of bad development and bad coaching. There is absolutely no surprise that we couldn't produce a single impact player outside of Gallagher under that regime.

Beforehand? No worries. Price, Max, Subban and a slew of lower picks that were pretty good. MB shows up and the taps turn off. He goes away and suddenly - Caufield, Strubel, Guhle, Farrel, Kidney (I won't include Mailloux because we shouldn't have even drafted him) Roy, Trudeau are looking like strong picks from Timmins.

It is not coincidence. It's not luck. It's not fluke... It's exactly what I predicted would happen.


He was never given the opportunity. MB hired Therrien and Robinson called to see if he could be the assistant.

MB never returned his call.


But... how many guys failed? How many guys left the game altogether under that regime? How does a blue chip guy like Leblanc just end up quitting hockey? He wrote an essay on his time with the organization. Go read it it. It's an indictment on the way we ran things and pretty heartbreaking.

Look at the difference between then and now. Look at the skills coaching we have. Look at how skilled players are being given a chance to succeed. Look at Slaf's work with Dr Shot. I mean, we didn't have anything like that at all before.

Dude, I absolutely love your post as I couldn’t agree more.

The sad part is I was saying the same thing while Bozovin was still here and got all the usual backlash from his cheerleaders who regurgitated all the bullshit being spewed by his friends in the French media to defend him.

Bs like:

“ He’s respected by GM’s around the league”
“ He wins all his trades”
“ Trades are hard”
“No Centers are available “
“ Analytics department is not needed - you can’t measure heart and Karacter”
“It’s the players fault”
“Team needs better attitude and character”
“ He’s learning and getting better”
“There not enough French players on the team”

I won’t even go to how they defended his hiring and repeated resigning of Sylvain Lefebvre.

 

[The Great Weal]

I’m saying the development was good under MB, Leblanc, McCarron, DLR and Tinordi should have been NHLer but in Galchenyuk case, the biggest problem was himself and his entourage

Also I don’t see how playing with Plekanec and Gallagher is ruining a player. Hell Slaf had worse linemates than that with less PP chance while we kept trying Anderson on the top line instead.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So Galchenyuk was dog shit after the Habs only because of injuries but the Habs still ruined him.

Still here to defend Therrien again eh? Tell us again how he was responsible for Price’s numbers being great.

As I wrote above - a lot of things can be true at the same time. I think Therrien is guilty of not enabling him to establish himself as a top six player. He wasted years behind DD needlessly.

As I said though- what really killed his career were injuries. He really wasn’t the same after that. I think Julien never really gave him a chance to come back and then he was moved around the lineup and got hurt. Was traded and got hurt. So, no I don’t blame Therrien for that. Nor do I blame Therrien for any drunk driving incidents years later. Chuck is responsible for his own shit. I just think we could’ve helped him - and didn’t.

Galchenyuk has issues that everyone acknowledges- including his dad. That’s outside of Montreal’s responsibility. However, we are responsible for putting players in an environment where we can maximize a player’s potential. We of course did not do that. We took a bad situation and made it worse. As we did with players throughout that entire era.

Make it make sense. Either his injuries ruined him which has nothing to do with coaching, or he’s someone who never understood the game as per his 50 coaches that tried to help him.

I think I’ve been pretty clear.

Didn’t you also say he’d be a 90 point player if he was developed properly?

Absolutely I think he could’ve been a 90 point player with Montreal. He was producing at about a point per game from the end of 16 t through the start of 17. Why would 90 points be a stretch?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Also I don’t see how playing with Plekanec and Gallagher is ruining a player. Hell Slaf had worse linemates than that with less PP chance while we kept trying Anderson on the top line instead.

And he was ripped while he was there. People were saying he was a bust. He produced almost nothing offensively.

Then our coach - infinitely smarter than Therrien - said to himself: 'Hey, why don't I try this guy with better players and give him more icetime and PP time.' Go figure... the guy started putting up points. And MSL didn't need FOUR f***ING YEARS to figure that out.

 

[The Great Weal]

Still here to defend Therrien again eh? Tell us again how he was responsible for Price’s numbers being great.

Lmao I have never defended Therrien. You just had a ridiculous expectation of Galchenyuk scoring 90 points in an era where an Art Ross winner had like 87.

As I wrote above - a lot of things can be true at the same time. I think Therrien is guilty of not enabling him to establish himself as a top six player. He wasted years behind DD needlessly.

He played with Plekanec and Gallagher most of the time. That’s not ruining a player.

As I said though- what really killed his career were injuries. .

Great so no amount of Scott Bowman like coaching could have helped him, glad he you finally understand.

Nor do I blame Therrien for any drunk driving incidents.

Why not? Under a different coach Galchenyuk would have won a Nobel peace prize too.

Absolutely I think he could’ve been a 90 point player with Montreal. He was producing at about a point per game from the end of 16 t through the start of 17. Why would 90 points be a stretch?

Because he’s got rocks for brains. Anyways thinking Galchneyuk would be a 90 point forward tells me all I need to know, only a handful of forwards did that during his “peak” including Jamie Benn who won the Art Ross with 87.

 

[Sorinth]

So Galchenyuk was dog shit after the Habs only because of injuries but the Habs still ruined him. Make it make sense. Either his injuries ruined him which has nothing to do with coaching, or he’s someone who never understood the game as per his 50 coaches that tried to help him.

Didn’t you also say he’d be a 90 point player if he was developed properly?

Here's the synopsis of a study showing that abusive coaches have long lasting effects even after the player has moved to a new coach.

Research Brief: Nasty Coaches and the Damage Done | Smith Business Insight

Abusive leadership has lasting negative effects on athletes’ performance

smith.queensu.ca

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Lmao I have never defended Therrien. You just had a ridiculous expectation of Galchenyuk scoring 90 points in an era where an Art Ross winner had like 87.

You sure as hell did.

For years!

My favourite was your argument that Price's numbers were only high because Therrien's systems gave up so many shots.

He played with Plekanec and Gallagher most of the time. That’s not ruining a player.

Lines were fluid. Sometimes it was DD with Max and Gallagher. Then we'd put Dale Weiss (???) there. Chuck spent a lot of time with Eller on the wing. I don't remember him being with Plek very much at all. Our 2-4 lines were all used defensively regardless.

Regardless, that's only half the problem. Chuck was an offensive player who was flip flopped between center and wing. Moreover, Therrien would scream that he wanted players to grind. And this highlights another key problem - WHY DRAFT THIS GUY IF YOU WANT GRINDERS???? - it made no sense.

Meanwhile we have Desharnais, a worse player in every way, on the first line. Sucking up PP time and not defensively responsible at all. Never mind the fact that we used Chuck in a defensive role, you don't think this is going to mindf*** a player? I mean how insane would it make you to watch as this guy - who at one point had a 20 game pointless streak - is put on the number one line no matter what?

Great so no amount of Scott Bowman like coaching could have helped him, glad he you finally understand.

I've always said this. Glad YOU finally understand my position. Again, both things can be true.

Why not? Under a different coach Galchenyuk would have won a Nobel peace prize too.

He would've had a better career, no doubt.

Even if injuries derailed him later on, at least he'd have had some good years. But he didn't even have that because... "Grind!"

Because he’s got rocks for brains. Anyways thinking Galchneyuk would be a 90 point forward tells me all I need to know, only a handful of forwards did that during his “peak” including Jamie Benn who won the Art Ross with 87.

He proved it out when given the chance.

I get it... it's easier to defend stupid decisions by pretending this guy wasn't productive. But he was. We just decided that Desharnais was the guy we wanted to hitch our car to.

And again, MB has NO excuses. If he felt this guy wasn't the right player, he should've traded him for the center we needed. Chuck certainly had trade value. There's just NO excuse for doing what we did. None.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Here's the synopsis of a study showing that abusive coaches have long lasting effects even after the player has moved to a new coach.

Research Brief: Nasty Coaches and the Damage Done | Smith Business Insight

Abusive leadership has lasting negative effects on athletes’ performance

smith.queensu.ca

Was Kwame Brown part of this study?

It makes perfect sense though.

 

[Forsead]

He was never offered the HC job. MB was hired and immediately hired Therrien. It was very clear what kind of culture he wanted here.

Robinson called afterwards to see if he could take an assistant role. Again, he was ignored.

Bergevin was the worst GM at the worst time for us. We had assembled a good young group of players (including Galchenyuk) and we should've come out of that era with a cup. And even if you don't think Galchenyuk was someone you wanted to build with - he had massive trade value. We certainly could've gotten our number one center by leveraging him.

Therrien was weirdly hired just after he made Bergervin cry on l'Antichambre talking about how his death parents would be proud of him for now being the new Habs GM.

The legend says that everytime Marc Bergevin cry, he makes a bonehead hockey management move.

 

[Vachon23]

Alain Vigneault was fired 1 year to late by Vancouver

I do think he would have made a better job then Michou

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Alain Vigneault was fired 1 year to late by Vancouver

I do think he would have made a better job then Michou

In retrospect, it's pretty clear that MB wanted drill sargeants. He had them at the NHL level and he had them in the minors. I don't think he would've hired Vignault ahead of Therrien.

And to be clear, I'm not suggesting that Timmins was perfect. Far from it. He made mistakes for sure. And there were years where we didn't pick until the 3rd round so it's not like I'm trying to argue that every prospect would've worked out. But some would have. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise that Leblanc for example wouldn't have been a solid NHL player.

And with the later picks we're seeing it now. Those guys I listed above may not all become NHL players but some already are. And some are going to be pretty good. That I think we can blame on mgmt and culture.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Dude, I absolutely love your post as I couldn’t agree more.

The sad part is I was saying the same thing while Bozovin was still here and got all the usual backlash from his cheerleaders who regurgitated all the bullshit being spewed by his friends in the French media to defend him.

Bs like:

“ He’s respected by GM’s around the league”
“ He wins all his trades”
“ Trades are hard”
“No Centers are available “
“ Analytics department is not needed - you can’t measure heart and Karacter”
“It’s the players fault”
“Team needs better attitude and character”
“ He’s learning and getting better”
“There not enough French players on the team”

I won’t even go to how they defended his hiring and repeated resigning of Sylvain Lefebvre.

Three nickels for two dimes...

There's a lot we can criticize that regime for. Development would be chief among them. But honestly, the core of a strong team was already there when he took over. There was a lot to work with.

MB's main sin will always be not choosing a direction. We could've just traded ALL our picks over that time and just gone for it and we'd be better off today. At least we would've had a better shot at the cup.

 

[Vachon23]

In retrospect, it's pretty clear that MB wanted drill sargeants. He had them at the NHL level and he had them in the minors. I don't think he would've hired Vignault ahead of Therrien.

And to be clear, I'm not suggesting that Timmins was perfect. Far from it. He made mistakes for sure. And there were years where we didn't pick until the 3rd round so it's not like I'm trying to argue that every prospect would've worked out. But some would have. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise that Leblanc for example wouldn't have been a solid NHL player.

And with the later picks we're seeing it now. Those guys I listed above may not all become NHL players but some already are. And some are going to be pretty good. That I think we can blame on mgmt and culture.

I do think he would have been the choice. He was a high regard coach and Bert knew him a lot since Chicago and Vancouver face each other a lot back then

 

[CHwest]

I work for a guy like Therrien, absolute shit. He could never stand to see a guy be happy, if he saw you smiling or enjoying your work he immediately went into azzhole mode. He was hated by everyone of his workers, hell we had one guy die of cancer and he made sure the nurses knew not to let azzhole into his room although he never showed up. Sucked the life and joy out of every freaking day. Thankfully he retired.

 

[lillypad33]

Habs should trade him and Engstrom because this team can't develop swedes for some reason.

Eriksson could be a solid, late round pick. Too bad he has a let birthday, otherwise he could have a pretty solid chance at the World Juniors.

Have we actually drafted a Swede in the first round? Can't think of a high pick off the top of my head.