Pre-Consolidation Draft

[rmartin65]

@ResilientBeast brought up the idea for a Pre-Consolidation Draft last year, but it never really took off. In anticipation of what I really hope is the next HoH project, I think we should give this a go this year. All players who played prior to consolidation (1926) are eligible, regardless of whether or not they played a substantial amount of time afterwards. However, players shall only be judged for what they did pre-consolidation.

The draft will consist of 14 rounds, with one of your players being designated as a player-coach:
2 Goalies
2 Points
2 Counterpoints
2 Rovers
2 Left Wings
2 Centers
2 Right Wings

Each team shall create a 6-man line-up and a 7-man line-up; playoff series are to be judged as though both line-ups are used (to replicate the old PCHA/NHA series).

To keep things simple, this draft will have no trading and a 12 hour clock for every round.

Sign-ups will close on 30 July, the draft order will come out on 31 July, and we'll start the draft on 1 August.

EDIT 27 July: In light of some rule changes, we are going to extend the sign-up period and postpone the draft start-date for a bit.

Teams
1) rmartin65: Calumet Miners
2) ResilientBeast: Edmonton H.C.
3) 2Resilient2Beast: Kenora Thistles
4) Professor What:

Click to read more...

 

[VanIslander]

Suggested rule: EVIDENCE must be provided of a player's position. A link or citation will do the job.

 

[The Macho King]

Cool idea... but I'm starting a new job and I don't know if I'll have the time to do the research or keep tabs on this. I'm a maybe - we'll see when it gets closer to the date.

 

[Professor What]

I'd be interested in watching. I hope you can get this off the ground. I can see it being very valuable for learning more about the era.

 

[VanIslander]

@seventieslord

 

[seventieslord]

All players who played prior to consolidation (1926) are eligible, regardless of whether or not they played a substantial amount of time afterwards. However, players shall only be judged for what they did pre-consolidation.

I'm not sure I'll participate, but I would like to say I don't think this is the right way to do it.

For example, when doing HOH defensemen lists, we first determined which players were eligible (typically over half their career or prime played on defense), then agreed to judge them based on their entire careers so as not to end up with silly rankings like Red Kelly 18th.

Similarly, we should look at this on a player-by-player basis and determine who counts as pre-consolidation and who doesn't, then judge them based on entire careers.

 

[rmartin65]

I'm not sure I'll participate, but I would like to say I don't think this is the right way to do it.

For example, when doing HOH defensemen lists, we first determined which players were eligible (typically over half their career or prime played on defense), then agreed to judge them based on their entire careers so as not to end up with silly rankings like Red Kelly 18th.

Similarly, we should look at this on a player-by-player basis and determine who counts as pre-consolidation and who doesn't, then judge them based on entire careers.

I’m open to suggestions such as this. I definitely agree with doing it your way for the HoH project, but I’m not sure it should matter for the draft. RB and I discussed this a bit last year, and came to the conclusion that if a person wants to draft Morenz then that’s fine, but everyone should only be judging Morenz on his time pre-consolidation.

However, if it gets more participation to make the change you suggested, I’m all for it.

Does anybody else have any ideas/suggestions?

 

[VanIslander]

Have a qualification.

For example: "He must've played 5 years of his career preconsolidation."

 

[ResilientBeast]

I have returned from vacation and will of course participate as Edmonton H.C.

I'm not sure I'll participate, but I would like to say I don't think this is the right way to do it.

For example, when doing HOH defensemen lists, we first determined which players were eligible (typically over half their career or prime played on defense), then agreed to judge them based on their entire careers so as not to end up with silly rankings like Red Kelly 18th.

Similarly, we should look at this on a player-by-player basis and determine who counts as pre-consolidation and who doesn't, then judge them based on entire careers.

I’m open to suggestions such as this. I definitely agree with doing it your way for the HoH project, but I’m not sure it should matter for the draft. RB and I discussed this a bit last year, and came to the conclusion that if a person wants to draft Morenz then that’s fine, but everyone should only be judging Morenz on his time pre-consolidation.

However, if it gets more participation to make the change you suggested, I’m all for it.

Does anybody else have any ideas/suggestions?

I thought it would be plenty fine just to chop careers off where necessary to be "pre-consolidation", especially for someone like Morenz. Off the top of my head he and Joliat are the big "boundary" cases who would get selected but clearly have strong post consolidation resumes. Edit: And Bill Cook

I'll do a quick cross-reference of players who straddle the eras and we can assess who will be lightly problematic to deal with

Suggested rule: EVIDENCE must be provided of a player's position. A link or citation will do the job.

Many links or citations should be necessary especially at the player's peak IMO, as you can see in my data dump thread it's messy for bit players but for the stars, it's pretty stable positionally.

Edit: Like Nighbor was a LW for a single season and I would oppose someone putting them here in this. Same with Joe Malone.

 

[ResilientBeast]

tbh depending on how many people we can entice @rmartin65 I wouldn't even be opposed to double dipping on teams just for fun

 

[ResilientBeast]

Player	Pre or Post?
Nels Stewart
Cy Denneny
Bill Cook
Billy Burch
Dick Irvin
Carson Cooper
Jimmy Herbert
Frank Boucher
Harry Oliver
Howie Morenz
Aurele Joliat
Art Gagne
George Hay
Corb Denneny
Frank Fredrickson
Jack Adams
Duke Keats
Babe Dye
Hooley Smith
Frank Nighbor
Red Green
Ty Arbour
Babe Siebert
Hib Milks
Bert McCaffrey
Barney Stanley
Jack Walker
Frank McCurry
Harold Darragh
Archie Briden
Cully Wilson
Red Dutton
Ollie Reinikka
Reg Noble
Mickey MacKay
Hap Day
Pete Bellefeuille
Harry Broadbent
Art Duncan
Bob Trapp
Lester Patrick
Lionel Conacher
Billy Boucher
Albert Leduc
Charlie Langlois
Shorty Green
Russell Oatman
Laurie Scott
Johnny Shepard
Eddie Shore
King Clancy
Buck Boucher
Duke Dukowski
Sprague Cleghorn
Lionel Hitchman
Emory Sparrow
Reg Mackey
Clem Loughlin
Gizzy Hart
Rodger Smith
Pete Lepine
Alex McKinnon
Charley McVeigh
Frank Foyston
Bert Corbeau
Bun Cook
Harry Cameron
Leo Reise
Hago Harrington
Dunc Munro
Fred Gordon
Tex White
Harold Cotton
Herb Drury
Joe McCormick
Ken Randall
Gordon McFarlane
Hec Lepine
Ernie Anderson
Red Stuart
Jack Connolly
Amby Moran
Billy Coutu
Jocko Anderson
Hobie Kitchen
Stan Jackson
Gerry Geran
Mike Neville
Emory Sparrow
Leo Bourgault
Jesse Spring
Art Townsend
Edmond Bouchard
Joe Simpson
Hec Kilrea
Herb Gardiner
Ken Doraty
Slim Halldorsson
Mickey Roach
Norm Shay
Percy Traub
Merlyn Phillips
Chas Dinsmore
Fern Headley
Odie Cleghorn
Sylvio Mantha
Wildor Larochelle
Herb Mitchell
Ed Gorman
Frank Carson
Sam Rothschild
Bobby Boucher
Harry Meeking
Frank Finnigan
Helge Bostrom
Frank Waite
Earl Campbell
Bill Holmes
Gord Fraser
Norm Shay
Charlie Cahill
Fred Lowrey
Alexander McIntyre
Wilf Loughlin
Ganton Scott
Louis Berlinguette
Bobby Rowe
Bobby Benson
Ganton Scott
Honore Brenot
Leroy Goldsworthy
Bobby Benson
Newsy Lalonde
Ron Moffatt
Eddie Oatman
Rollie Paulhus
Rusty Crawford
Alex Smith
John Brackenborough
Rod Smylie
Fred Bergdinon
George Redding
Gerry Munro
Jim Cain
Phil Stevens
Werner Schnarr
Charles Larose
Gordon Spence
Joe Matte
Reg Reid
Toots Holway
Bernie Brophy
Jim Cain
George Horne
Toots Holway
Alf Skinner
Fred Lowrey
Dave Ritchie
John McKinnon
Roger Cormier
Joe Matte
Jack Duggan
Leth Graham
Billy Cameron
Rene Boileau
Bob Hall
John Morrison

From my pre-consolidation point allocation sheet, here's a list of all players in either the NHL or WHL in 1925-26 who would form a lot of boundary cases.

Edit: I'll fill it in slowly off the top of my head for anyone who matters

Maybe we just make "The Morenz Rule" and players must have played 4 or more seasons at the top level before consolidation to even be considered eligible? That cuts out Howie, Joliat, Hooley and Eddie Shore who are some of the more problematic cases

And it keeps the WCHL guys eligible like Gagne, Keats, Cook etc

 

[ResilientBeast]

Many links or citations should be necessary especially at the player's peak IMO, as you can see in my data dump thread it's messy for bit players but for the stars, it's pretty stable positionally.

Edit: Like Nighbor was a LW for a single season and I would oppose someone putting them here in this. Same with Joe Malone.

Just a follow up on this, the biggest problems for positions on the PCHA side are going to be

Taylor - CP/Rover/C. Thankfully he's been well chronicled by me and I would say any of those positions is fine for him

Walker/Morris/Foyston on Seattle. From my data thread for 1915-16 shows that it was somewhat fluid.

Morris - 9C 5RW
Walker - 6R 9LW
Foyston 9R 4LW 2C

MacKay - R/C/W again well chronicled by me

Oatman, based on my research he played all positions except goal at some point. But was largely a Rover/RW

This is a long winded way of saying, if you can give a sizable body of evidence that he played a position for a substantial period (like my Taylotrr, MacKay and Stewart) deep dives I'm cool with it

 

[Professor What]

So, @rmartin65 has encouraged me to give this a try. I have to admit to being overwhelmed by it with my current level of knowledge. One thing that worries me most is that I'm going to completely miss a bunch of players. Anyone got any preparation suggestions if I were to try it?

 

[rmartin65]

Glad to see you join in, @Professor What . As for preparation- I'm just reading what I can from the bio thread, the Early Round Up Thread, and whatever I can find online.

With PW's entry, we now have 4 confirmed participants and 2 maybes (@The Macho King and @seventieslord , you guys know you want to join). Does anybody have any strong feelings about seventies' proposal on player eligibility, or RB's suggestion about multiple teams?

 

[Dreakmur]

So, @rmartin65 has encouraged me to give this a try. I have to admit to being overwhelmed by it with my current level of knowledge. One thing that worries me most is that I'm going to completely miss a bunch of players. Anyone got any preparation suggestions if I were to try it?

The bio thread is broken into eras. I'd start there by clicking names I didn't recognize.

 

[Professor What]

Glad to see you join in, @Professor What . As for preparation- I'm just reading what I can from the bio thread, the Early Round Up Thread, and whatever I can find online.

With PW's entry, we now have 4 confirmed participants and 2 maybes (@The Macho King and @seventieslord , you guys know you want to join). Does anybody have any strong feelings about seventies' proposal on player eligibility, or RB's suggestion about multiple teams?

I agree with the suggestions @seventieslord made. If we're considering this to be at least partially preparation for a potential project, we might as well play by the rules said project would have, and I can't see those suggestions not being incorporated into a project.

I have no problems with anyone else having multiple teams, but it's not something I'd personally feel like taking on. I don't want that to prevent anyone else though.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I have no problems with anyone else having multiple teams, but it's not something I'd personally feel like taking on. I don't want that to prevent anyone else though.

I like it, just because this project isn't competitive to me in nature at all

Strictly a catalyst for me to stop procrastinating filling out my player position data

And the more teams the deeper into the pool we go

 

[The Macho King]

Glad to see you join in, @Professor What . As for preparation- I'm just reading what I can from the bio thread, the Early Round Up Thread, and whatever I can find online.

With PW's entry, we now have 4 confirmed participants and 2 maybes (@The Macho King and @seventieslord , you guys know you want to join). Does anybody have any strong feelings about seventies' proposal on player eligibility, or RB's suggestion about multiple teams?

Yeah I gotta be out. New kid plus new job - no time for shenanigans at the moment.

 

[rmartin65]

Alright, let's roll with @seventieslord 's idea on players. Thanks to @ResilientBeast , we have a nice list of players to discuss; I think we should get moving on discussing player eligibility so we don't push this back too much.

And if no one is opposed to it, I think we should go ahead and allow 2 teams per GM. Like @Professor What , I don't think I'm going to be able to do that, but I look forward to other GMs potentially doing so.

Yeah I gotta be out. New kid plus new job - no time for shenanigans at the moment.

I'm sorry to hear that, but (obviously) understand. Hopefully you'll find some time to throw some comments in every now and again.

 

[The Macho King]

Alright, let's roll with @seventieslord 's idea on players. Thanks to @ResilientBeast , we have a nice list of players to discuss; I think we should get moving on discussing player eligibility so we don't push this back too much.

And if no one is opposed to it, I think we should go ahead and allow 2 teams per GM. Like @Professor What , I don't think I'm going to be able to do that, but I look forward to other GMs potentially doing so.



I'm sorry to hear that, but (obviously) understand. Hopefully you'll find some time to throw some comments in every now and again.

I'll follow and learn, but I just can't commit.

And I'd like to be a voter if you're going to allow non-participants to.

 

[rmartin65]

And I'd like to be a voter if you're going to allow non-participants to.

Hell yeah, brother, all former and current ATD GMs are welcomed (encouraged!) to vote, as are any of the HoH regulars.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Not sure I play, but agree with @seventieslord about taking the full legacy of players.

Reason: You look at a lineup and you see "Howie Morenz". This name already has a value in your head. Now you have to create a whole new player "Howie Morenz" with a new value, and do it for every single guy with partial pre-consolidation careers. It becomes a chore and unintuitive. Btw, Howie Morenz shouldn't be in this draft. I don't think Bill Cook should be neither. His whole stretch with the Rangers was post-consolidation, and had three strong seasons out west.

 

[VanIslander]

I suggested an easy qualification.
I am not interested in debating this summer.

I'll run the MLD 2022 and gladly join the pre-consolidation draft when you hash out the candidates (in the fall by mid-September? October?

I am on vacay until early August, the temps 30+ C, am primed at the moment for a straightforward summer draft.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Not sure I play, but agree with @seventieslord about taking the full legacy of players.

Reason: You look at a lineup and you see "Howie Morenz". This name already has a value in your head. Now you have to create a whole new player "Howie Morenz" with a new value, and do it for every single guy with partial pre-consolidation careers. It becomes a chore and unintuitive. Btw, Howie Morenz shouldn't be in this draft. I don't think Bill Cook should be neither. His whole stretch with the Rangers was post-consolidation, and had three strong seasons out west.

The big edge cases to wrangle with are off the top of my head that people would be interested in are

- Frank Boucher
- Eddie Shore
- Howie Morenz
- Aurele Joliant
- Bill Cook
- Bun Cook
- Nels Stewart
- Hooley Smith

And most of these guys have such poor legacy as just pre-consolidation players

 

[rmartin65]

Player	Pre or Post?
Nels Stewart	Post
Cy Denneny	Pre
Bill Cook	Post
Billy Burch	Pre?
Dick Irvin	Pre
Carson Cooper	Pre?
Jimmy Herbert	Post
Frank Boucher	Post?
Harry Oliver	Pre?
Howie Morenz	Post
Aurele Joliat	Post
Art Gagne	Pre
George Hay	Pre?
Corb Denneny	Pre
Frank Fredrickson	Pre
Jack Adams	Pre
Duke Keats	Pre
Babe Dye	Pre
Hooley Smith	Post
Frank Nighbor	Pre
Red Green	Pre
Ty Arbour	Pre
Babe Siebert	Post
Hib Milks	Pre?
Bert McCaffrey	Pre
Barney Stanley	Pre
Jack Walker	Pre
Frank McCurry	Pre
Harold Darragh	Post
Archie Briden	Pre
Cully Wilson	Pre
Red Dutton	Post?
Ollie Reinikka	Post?
Reg Noble	Pre
Mickey MacKay	Pre
Hap Day	Post
Pete Bellefeuille	Post?
Harry Broadbent	Pre
Art Duncan	Pre
Bob Trapp	Post?
Lester Patrick	Pre
Lionel Conacher	Post
Billy Boucher	Pre
Albert Leduc	Post
Charlie Langlois	Pre
Shorty Green	Pre
Russell Oatman	Post
Laurie Scott	Post?
Johnny Shepard	Post
Eddie Shore	Post
King Clancy	Post
Buck Boucher	Pre
Duke Dukowski	Post?
Sprague Cleghorn	Pre
Lionel Hitchman	Post
Emory Sparrow	Pre
Reg Mackey	Post
Clem Loughlin	Pre
Gizzy Hart	Post
Rodger Smith	Pre
Pete Lepine	Pit? Post
Alex McKinnon	Pre
Charley McVeigh	Post?
Frank Foyston	Pre
Bert Corbeau	Pre
Bun Cook	Post
Harry Cameron	Pre
Leo Reise	Pre
Hago Harrington	Post
Dunc Munro	Pre?
Fred Gordon	Post
Tex White	Pre
Harold Cotton	Post
Herb Drury	Pre
Joe McCormick	Pre?
Ken Randall	Pre
Gordon McFarlane	Post
Hec Lepine	Pre
Ernie Anderson	Post
Red Stuart	Pre?
Jack Connolly	Pre?
Amby Moran	Pre
Billy Coutu	Pre
Jocko Anderson	Pre
Hobie Kitchen	Pre
Stan Jackson	Pre
Gerry Geran	Pre
Mike Neville	Post
Emory Sparrow	Pre
Leo Bourgault	Post
Jesse Spring	Post
Art Townsend	Post
Edmond Bouchard	Pre
Joe Simpson	Pre
Hec Kilrea	Post
Herb Gardiner	Pre
Ken Doraty	Post
Slim Halldorsson	Post
Mickey Roach	Pre
Norm Shay	Pre?
Percy Traub	Pre
Merlyn Phillips	Pre?
Chas Dinsmore	Pre?
Fern Headley	Post
Odie Cleghorn	Pre
Sylvio Mantha	Post
Wildor Larochelle	Post
Herb Mitchell	Pre
Ed Gorman	Pre
Frank Carson	Pre?
Sam Rothschild	Pre?
Bobby Boucher	Post
Harry Meeking	Pre
Frank Finnigan	Post
Helge Bostrom	Pre
Frank Waite	Post?
Earl Campbell	Pre
Bill Holmes	Post
Gord Fraser	Pre?
Norm Shay	Pre
Charlie Cahill	Post
Fred Lowrey	Post
Alexander McIntyre	Post
Wilf Loughlin	Pre
Ganton Scott	Post
Louis Berlinguette	Pre
Bobby Rowe	Pre
Bobby Benson	Pre
Ganton Scott	Post
Honore Brenot	Pre
Leroy Goldsworthy	Post
Bobby Benson	Pre
Newsy Lalonde	Pre
Ron Moffatt	Post
Eddie Oatman	Pre
Rollie Paulhus	Post
Rusty Crawford	Pre
Alex Smith	Post
John Brackenborough	Pre
Rod Smylie	Pre
Fred Bergdinon	Pre?
George Redding	Post
Gerry Munro	Pre?
Jim Cain	Post?
Phil Stevens	Pre
Werner Schnarr	Post?
Charles Larose	Pre
Gordon Spence	Pre
Joe Matte	Pre
Reg Reid	Pre
Toots Holway	Post?
Bernie Brophy	Post
Jim Cain	Post?
George Horne	Pre?
Toots Holway	Post?
Alf Skinner	Pre
Fred Lowrey	Pre?
Dave Ritchie	Pre
John McKinnon	Post
Roger Cormier	Post
Joe Matte	Pre
Jack Duggan	Pre
Leth Graham	Pre
Billy Cameron	Pre
Rene Boileau	Post
Bob Hall	Pre
John Morrison	Pre

Thanks for posting this list, @ResilientBeast . I've filled it in to the best of my knowledge (making some very wild guesses in some places, haha).

Let me know if (and where) anyone disagrees. Particularly, I think the higher-end guys are the ones worth discussion.

The big edge cases to wrangle with are off the top of my head that people would be interested in are

- Frank Boucher
- Eddie Shore
- Howie Morenz
- Aurele Joliant
- Bill Cook
- Bun Cook
- Nels Stewart
- Hooley Smith

And most of these guys have such poor legacy as just pre-consolidation players

Boucher is the hardest one for me. I went back and forth on where to put him for a while.