Rumor: Friedman: Vellucci not coming back

[Boom Boom Apathy]

True, but just cause he's great at analytics doesn't mean he's not good at the other things you said a GM needs to do, either.

Yep. None of us know if he's good at that or not, which is why I was responding to the poster that said he'd like for Tulsky to take over as GM because he has a brilliant mind. He MAY not be any good, nor have any interest in all the other stuff that a GM does and it would be a poor utilization of his talent. He might be good at those things, but without knowing that, I have a hard time saying I'd like him to take over as GM just because he's brilliant and is a good analytics guy.

The important thing to ask is is he interested in that for his career? If he is, we may have to choose at some point between letting him have a shot, or losing him to someone who will give him that shot.

Even if he is interested, if the Canes get to that point, the same question remains though, is will he be good at the job? If the choice is between losing an analytics guy because he wants to be a GM vs. giving the guy a GM role even if he's not the right guy for that role, just to keep him, then IMO, you let him go. If he's good at that other stuff, it's a different story, but the point is, none of us know that right now.

 

[McBrockGinn]

True, but just cause he's great at analytics doesn't mean he's not good at the other things you said a GM needs to do, either. The important thing to ask is is he interested in that for his career? If he is, we may have to choose at some point between letting him have a shot, or losing him to someone who will give him that shot.

I mean, we're making a few assumptions on a bunch of unknowns here. Those can't be the only two options... If he's focused on growing his career (which most usually are) why not expand his analytics team? If he wants more managerial experience then continue to provide him that by building one of the best hockey analytics teams?

 

[MinJaBen]

I'm not sure that's the best use of Tulsky.

None of us know if he's good at that or not, which is why I was responding to the poster that said he'd like for Tulsky to take over as GM because he has a brilliant mind. He MAY not be any good, nor have any interest in all the other stuff that a GM does and it would be a poor utilization of his talent. He might be good at those things, but without knowing that, I have a hard time saying I'd like him to take over as GM just because he's brilliant and is a good analytics guy.

I'm just responding to your original post where you seemed to come down against his possible consideration. You said you were not sure that the best use of Tulsky. But as you just said, none of us know if he's good or not at being a GM. I wouldn't advocate for him, but I certainly wouldn't rule him out either. Maybe being a GM is the best use of Tulsky....as you said, we just don't have the information to know one way or the other.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I'm just responding to your original post where you seemed to come down against his possible consideration. You said you were not sure that the best use of Tulsky. But as you just said, none of us know if he's good or not at being a GM. I wouldn't advocate for him, but I certainly wouldn't rule him out either. Maybe being a GM is the best use of Tulsky....as you said, we just don't have the information to know one way or the other.

Right, "I'm not sure" isn't as definitive like you seem to have made it out to be. I'm not ruling him out. My intent was to say I don't know if he's any good, has any interest, nor would be most effective doing that (vs. just staying in an analytics role). We all know (or at least assume) he's very good in his current role, but that doesn't mean he will be very good in a GM role...and that's my point.

So what I questioned with my post and what I disagree with, is someone saying they'd definitely like to see him as the GM, because none of us know if he'd be any good at it or not. Being brilliant and good at analytics isn't enough to say one way or another. Maybe he does have all the other qualities to be a successful and good GM, but we don't know.

BTW...this is the quintessential off-season discussion.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Yeah I'm with BBA with regard to anointing guys as future GMs when they're excellent at one thing.

Taking Tulsky for example:

Who knows how he is with the media?

How good is his poker face?

Is he an effective negotiator?

Does he care in the slightest for the business side of the game?

Now, don't get me wrong, this is an industry run primarily by former players, and all of those questions equally apply to them. If random former NHL player Don Waddell can figure out all of that stuff from a business side, I'm sure wildly intelligent PhD man Eric Tulsky can. But just as not every great retired player makes a great GM, either because they can't or simply because they don't want to, I don't think every brilliant analytics guy does either.

Remains to be seen with Tulsky, but I think a promotion to AGM would come first if that was the plan. Right now I get the sense that he runs his own department with his own projects, and informs the braintrust accordingly. It doesn't seem like he's working phones or making business decisions, and he may relish the opportunity to have a little more leeway and creativity in the analytics space that he'd likely have to put aside in a GM role. He's basically running Canes R&D, and given his background that may be his passion.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

GMing is a good ole boys club full of lifelong NHL/hockey alumni while Tulsky has a PhD in Chemistry and a background in applied nanoparticles.

Tulsky is elite level analytical support staff. Leave the negotiating and networking to the negotiators and networkers. I'd rather have Tulsky running numbers than on the phone with Paul Fenton trying to make an irrational trade (analytically) like Nino for Rask.

BRB picturing Tulsky on the phone with Fenton like "ooooooh, yeah that's not a good trade for you Paul... here's why."

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Yeah I'm with BBA with regard to anointing guys as future GMs when they're excellent at one thing.

Taking Tulsky for example:

Who knows how he is with the media?

How good is his poker face?

Is he an effective negotiator?

Does he care in the slightest for the business side of the game?

Now, don't get me wrong, this is an industry run primarily by former players, and all of those questions equally apply to them. If random former NHL player Don Waddell can figure out all of that stuff from a business side, I'm sure wildly intelligent PhD man Eric Tulsky can. But just as not every great retired player makes a great GM, either because they can't or simply because they don't want to, I don't think every brilliant analytics guy does either.

Remains to be seen with Tulsky, but I think a promotion to AGM would come first if that was the plan. Right now I get the sense that he runs his own department with his own projects, and informs the braintrust accordingly. It doesn't seem like he's working phones or making business decisions, and he may relish the opportunity to have a little more leeway and creativity in the analytics space that he'd likely have to put aside in a GM role. He's basically running Canes R&D, and given his background that may be his passion.

Yep. Tulsky is already VP of Hockey Management and Strategy, and I'm sure he gets paid very well to do what he loves, and his name will be on the Cup if we win it one day. Seems unlikely he's going the straight GM route -- in fact, I'm not sure this team will ever have another traditional GM as long as Dundon owns it.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Yep. Tulsky is already VP of Hockey Management and Strategy, and I'm sure he gets paid very well to do what he loves, and his name will be on the Cup if we win it one day. Seems unlikely he's going the straight GM route -- in fact, I'm not sure this team will ever have another traditional GM as long as Dundon owns it.

I really, really hate to say this, and I honestly don't think it would happen because I don't think he wants it...

...but with the way things are going and the hivemind set-up, I don't hate and may have started the process of coming around to the idea of Dundon being an owner/GM at some point in the future ugh *cringes* I said it now shut up.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I really, really hate to say this, and I honestly don't think it would happen because I don't think he wants it...

...but with the way things are going and the hivemind set-up, I don't hate and may have started the process of coming around to the idea of Dundon being an owner/GM at some point in the future ugh *cringes* I said it now shut up.

I think he will never be Owner/GM, because that implies way too much day-to-day responsibility that I'm sure he doesn't have the time for.

He's the Chairman of the Board in a very literal sense. He sets the direction, he sits down with the CEO/GM/whatever when he feels it's necessary to tweak that direction, and if there's something he feels is a particular problem I'm sure he'll micromanage it until it's fixed. But I think he's mostly found the people he trusts to run the show.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I think he will never be Owner/GM, because that implies way too much day-to-day responsibility that I'm sure he doesn't have the time for.

He's the Chairman of the Board in a very literal sense. He sets the direction, he sits down with the CEO/GM/whatever when he feels it's necessary to tweak that direction, and if there's something he feels is a particular problem I'm sure he'll micromanage it until it's fixed. But I think he's mostly found the people he trusts to run the show.

Your first paragraph (too difficult to bold on iPhone) is exactly why I think it’d never happen.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I think he will never be Owner/GM, because that implies way too much day-to-day responsibility that I'm sure he doesn't have the time for.

He's the Chairman of the Board in a very literal sense. He sets the direction, he sits down with the CEO/GM/whatever when he feels it's necessary to tweak that direction, and if there's something he feels is a particular problem I'm sure he'll micromanage it until it's fixed. But I think he's mostly found the people he trusts to run the show.

Exactly this. Hire good people that align with your overall objectives and that you trust, set the direction, and let them manage it.

 

[My Special Purpose]

In a lot of ways, Waddell became the perfect GM for Dundon's "hive mind" experiment. First of all, he didn't really want the job. Perfect. This wasn't a typical GM job anyhow. Secondly, he still knew everybody in the league. Also perfect. And third, he was perfectly willing to use his contacts/connections to execute the plan, that he may or may not have had a major hand in creating. Hell, it's possible Donny disagreed with every move he made, but he made them because he bought into his role.

Also, due to his lack of success in his previous kick at the GM can, he may have been underestimated by the rest of the league.

I'm not saying he's a figurehead. I don't know exactly how the hive mind operates. But I do know that DW has been pretty close to exactly what Dundon said he was looking for. I'm not sure why we'd want to change that.

 

[HisIceness]

I've been critical of Waddells time in Atlanta but to be fair he had something like 8 different bosses he had to get approval from. That has to be hell on anyone.

Here, he just has to answer to one man.

 

[NotOpie]

I've been critical of Waddells time in Atlanta but to be fair he had something like 8 different bosses he had to get approval from. That has to be hell on anyone.

Here, he just has to answer to one man.

I think Dundon fears the turtleneck.

 

[cptjeff]

I've been critical of Waddells time in Atlanta but to be fair he had something like 8 different bosses he had to get approval from. That has to be hell on anyone.

Here, he just has to answer to one man.

Also remember with Waddell's time in Atlanta that team ownership was actively trying to destroy the team so they could own just the basketball team and arena. Between the meddling, hierarchy, and the active sabotage by ownership, I don't think Waddell ever had a chance at success in that job. Nobody could have had success under those conditions.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

We also tend to forget that Donny set the table for a very good young Winnipeg team.

 

[Hinterland]

Well, Waddell is to blame for not trading Hamilton for that extra top six forward, ideally a Center. There surely would have been offers and after watching the Canes deep playoff run, who knows what would have been possible.
Waddell is also to blame for not getting that extra lefty defender. Ok, Rod screwed up, too by not trusting Fleury and willingly playing multiple defenders on their off sides. But Waddell should have either forced Rod to play Fleury during the regular season or get somebody Rod can trust. Rod clearly never trusted Fleury despite him being the third lefty defender in the system all season long. Waddell and Rod not solving this is a big part od why the team fell apart in the end.


Having said all that I don't think Waddell has done too much wrong otherwise. His trades helped the team and so did his signings. He also signed players to some very teamfriendly contracts. He has been a bit on the passive side but until that reaches Holland Level, I don't see why the Canes would need a new GM.

So far I'm also not impressed with analytics guys as GM. The two babyfaces messed up the Maple Losers and the Desert Dogs. I don't see anything coming there and I'd much rather stick with Waddell.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Not to mention the expansion draft was much less favorable for new teams back then between the rules and having three expansion drafts with four teams over a few years.

 

[MinJaBen]

Well, Waddell is to blame for not trading Hamilton for that extra top six forward, ideally a Center.

 

[WreckingCrew]

Well, Waddell is to blame for not trading Hamilton for that extra top six forward, ideally a Center. There surely would have been offers and after watching the Canes deep playoff run, who knows what would have been possible.
Waddell is also to blame for not getting that extra lefty defender. Ok, Rod screwed up, too by not trusting Fleury and willingly playing multiple defenders on their off sides. But Waddell should have either forced Rod to play Fleury during the regular season or get somebody Rod can trust. Rod clearly never trusted Fleury despite him being the third lefty defender in the system all season long. Waddell and Rod not solving this is a big part od why the team fell apart in the end.


Having said all that I don't think Waddell has done too much wrong otherwise. His trades helped the team and so did his signings. He also signed players to some very teamfriendly contracts. He has been a bit on the passive side but until that reaches Holland Level, I don't see why the Canes would need a new GM.

So far I'm also not impressed with analytics guys as GM. The two babyfaces messed up the Maple Losers and the Desert Dogs. I don't see anything coming there and I'd much rather stick with Waddell.

Wait, what? You're blaming him for not immediately trading a guy we just acquired via trade? If anything, you COULD blame him for not trading Faulk...but unfortunately after last year there didn't seem to be much of a market for him.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Wait, what? You're blaming him for not immediately trading a guy we just acquired via trade? If anything, you COULD blame him for not trading Faulk...but unfortunately after last year there didn't seem to be much of a market for him.

I must be missing some of the posts that people are responding to?

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I must be missing some of the posts that people are responding to?

Oh, I'm sure. I know I am, and I'm totally fine with it.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Rumor: Vellucci in line to be Hurricanes next goaltending coach

 

[SaskCanesFan]

Rumor: Vellucci in line to be Hurricanes next goaltending coach

If he can get the same results with goalies that he did the AHL team, yeah sign me up for that

 

[tarheelhockey]

Rumor: Vellucci in line to be next Hurricanes goaltender