Proposal: (CAR/NYR) Kotkaniemi for Trouba + Chytil

[lanceuppercut75]

IMPORTANT NOTES
(1) This is a scenario where Pesce and Skjei both leave CAR as UFAs
(2) NYR are very likely trading Trouba this summer or possibly next summer
(3) There are a limited number of teams Trouba would waive for that also maybe want him
(4) NYR need cap for Lindgren Schneider Kakko now, Miller Shesterkin Lafreniere next summer
(5) CAR likely isn't interested in 6 more years of Kotkaniemi, but would still need a 2C/3C

to New York Rangers
Jesperi Kotkaniemi (6y @ $4.8200m)
( $7.6175m in cap space )

to Carolina Hurricanes
Filip Chytil (3y @ $4.4375m)
Jacob Trouba (2y @ $8.0000m)

Click to read more...

 

[bernmeister]

IMPORTANT NOTES
(1) This is a scenario where Pesce and Skjei both leave CAR as UFAs
(2) NYR are very likely trading Trouba this summer or possibly next summer
(3) There are a limited number of teams Trouba would waive for that also maybe want him
(4) NYR need cap for Lindgren Schneider Kakko now, Miller Shesterkin Lafreniere next summer
(5) CAR likely isn't interested in 6 more years of Kotkaniemi, but would still need a 2C/3C

to New York Rangers
Jesperi Kotkaniemi (6y @ $4.8200m)
( $7.6175m in cap space )

to Carolina Hurricanes
Filip Chytil (3y @ $4.4375m)
Jacob Trouba (2y @ $8.0000m)

premise in a vacuum is reasonable
but Rs say no
b'c prefer to retain FC
and
get more if slightly retained on Trouba and got draft picks

1. Short term view:
We like KK + Cuyle as bookend Ws on the same line + need a pivot, yes. But if Chytil has proven chem w/KK from kid line days, why not give him dibs, instead of surrendering his value.

2. longer term view:
bread has 1 yr left 11.6+ and will not get anything remotely near that.
Rs need to make mins for Othmann now and Gabe Perrault following season.
Waiting til last min/self rental = long term no assets added going forward
and Panarin may want to avoid bad look of not getting a signif offer
so there is a chance that next season, presuming he does not take a very very deep discount on a short term deal w/minimum protections, bread will get moved, but only to a preferred
relocation.
If that happens, there is also chance that while Rs are more likely to keep LaF, if enuf overpayment is on the table, he too can be moved, even if only limited scenario and only for top top $.
Translation: conceptually where there is enuf ample profit, both LaF + Panrin could be gone.
Where then would Trochek play? Depending on the hauls from such deals, pivot betw KK + Cuyle is an option if Chytil doesn't return to form. Hopefully he just still has some rust.

Finally, Lindgren should also be dealt for Rs to stay ahead of the cap.
I expect he is looking at 4 yrs and I give him a shelf life of 2-3 yrs.
Excellent stopgap.
I see UT offering 2 2nds + a 3rd +
for
Lindgren + Robertson

If you want in on that, feel free to make an offer.

Trouba, won't want to send w/in tri state area, but otherwise, wherev he wants if return is ballpark equal.
I am seeing Trouba at 6.5 2 yrs for a 2nd + 3rd

 

[Jacob582]

You got to give NYR something more. Kotkaniemi's term demands 50% retention.

 

[CanMerc]

Trouba likely says no

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

The canes would likely just want to buy out kk than this

 

[Unsustainable]

No, we have better options.

 

[HBK27]

Trouba likely says no

Trouba loses his NMC clause this offseason, going to a 15 team no-trade list next season and a 12-team no trade list the following.

Not sure why he'd put Carolina on the no-trade considering they would give him a good chance of winning a Cup.

That being said, I just don't see Carolina having much interest in this deal. There are still very much in a win-now mode (while keeping an eye on the future) and that's a lot of cap space to tie up in Trouba given his decline the past few seasons, while Chytil is a huge question mark now given his concussion history. I think there's a decent shot of retaining their defenders, otherwise they'll be other options in UFA or via trade as seems to be a relatively attractive team/market for players to go to.

 

[Unsustainable]

Trouba loses his NMC clause this offseason, going to a 15 team no-trade list next season and a 12-team no trade list the following.

Not sure why he'd put Carolina on the no-trade considering they would give him a good chance of winning a Cup.

That being said, I just don't see Carolina having much interest in this deal. There are still very much in a win-now mode (while keeping an eye on the future) and that's a lot of cap space to tie up in Trouba given his decline the past few seasons, while Chytil is a huge question mark now given his concussion history. I think there's a decent shot of retaining their defenders, otherwise they'll be other options in UFA or via trade as seems to be a relatively attractive team/market for players to go to.

Trouba doesn't match our style, we aren't in the business of taking cap dumps.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

When it comes to KK here are the 3 options for the Canes.

1. Keep going with him
2. Buy him out for very minimal cap hit
3. Find some sort of win-win trade scenario with another team

No. 3 is unlikely so it's probably gonna be No. 1 or 2.

Canes don't want or need Trouba. He's not the type of defenseman we want at all.

 

[CanMerc]

Trouba loses his NMC clause this offseason, going to a 15 team no-trade list next season and a 12-team no trade list the following.

Not sure why he'd put Carolina on the no-trade considering they would give him a good chance of winning a Cup.

That being said, I just don't see Carolina having much interest in this deal. There are still very much in a win-now mode (while keeping an eye on the future) and that's a lot of cap space to tie up in Trouba given his decline the past few seasons, while Chytil is a huge question mark now given his concussion history. I think there's a decent shot of retaining their defenders, otherwise they'll be other options in UFA or via trade as seems to be a relatively attractive team/market for players to go to.

Didn’t realize that, but he went to NYR to be closer to his fiancé/wife, and make traveling to see each other easier, while she was doing her med internship, so he will likely continue to take her career into consideration when making decisions on where to play

 

[HBK27]

Didn’t realize that, but he went to NYR to be closer to his fiancé/wife, and make traveling to see each other easier, while she was doing her med internship, so he will likely continue to take her career into consideration when making decisions on where to play

Yeah, well aware of that - but without the NMC, he doesn't have a ton of control...though he could leverage his NTC is a way to really narrow it down to a handful of realistic teams.

Despite his struggles though, I have a hard time believing that the Rangers would be able to move him and think he finishes out his contract with them.

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

When it comes to KK here are the 3 options for the Canes.

1. Keep going with him
2. Buy him out for very minimal cap hit
3. Find some sort of win-win trade scenario with another team

No. 3 is unlikely so it's probably gonna be No. 1 or 2.

Canes don't want or need Trouba. He's not the type of defenseman we want at all.

If Carolina decides it's time to move on after the season, either via buyout or trade, then the win/win trade scenario becomes easier to achieve. I could see something like Ryan Johansen (4m x 1 year) for Kotkaniemi making sense for both teams. Basically Philly gets two years to see if Kotkaniemi fits in in Philly before they possibly buy him out (at 1/3 price). Carolina also may prefer the one year hit of Johansen or the two year buyout to carrying KK's cap hit for years.

There's 3 offseasons where Kotkaniemi can be bought out at 1/3 price. And for all the talk about how it's no big deal it's still dead cap and 5-9 m of it.

 

[Chrispy]

If Carolina decides it's time to move on after the season, either via buyout or trade, then the win/win trade scenario becomes easier to achieve. I could see something like Ryan Johansen (4m x 1 year) for Kotkaniemi making sense for both teams. Basically Philly gets two years to see if Kotkaniemi fits in in Philly before they possibly buy him out (at 1/3 price). Carolina also may prefer the one year hit of Johansen or the two year buyout to carrying KK's cap hit for years.

There's 3 offseasons where Kotkaniemi can be bought out at 1/3 price. And for all the talk about how it's no big deal it's still dead cap and 5-9 m of it.

The dead cap is $835K a year for most years (only $455K for a 2-3 years.) It's a long buyout, but it's less than 1% of next year's $87.7M cap and the cap will continue going up.

Does it make sense to bring in Johansen, who had a comparable season in Colorado and never played in Philadelphia, to avoid that?

I'd rather play Kotkaniemi again next season than pay Johansen, whether it's to play or not play.

 

[cwede]

read it 10 times,
still can't see any reason NYR would even consider this

NYR love Chytil and appreciate Trouba
(i know many here at HFB think that the vocal haters at HFB represent reality, but no, not really)

if/when Trouba is moved, NYR won't be 'paying' to move Trouba, team(s) will want him

Kotkaniemi offers nothing NYR seeks and ain't worth that Cap Hit to NYR

also, knowing a little about Trouba, I doubt he'd waive for a Metro team

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

The dead cap is $835K a year for most years (only $455K for a 2-3 years.) It's a long buyout, but it's less than 1% of next year's $87.7M cap and the cap will continue going up.

Does it make sense to bring in Johansen, who had a comparable season in Colorado and never played in Philadelphia, to avoid that?

I'd rather play Kotkaniemi again next season than pay Johansen, whether it's to play or not play.

The Johansen buyout is 1.3m x 2 years, seems much more palatable

Ryan Johansen Buyout Results - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Ryan Johansen buyout results and details including cost calculations, savings and final cap hit

www.capfriendly.com

Again it depends on how sure the FO is they've seen enough of Kotkaniemi, and he's not someone they want to employ next year.

 

[HBK27]

if/when Trouba is moved, NYR won't be 'paying' to move Trouba, team(s) will want him

LOL, no they won't - no team is interested in allocating $8M of their cap to Trouba at this stage. Maybe if the Rangers retain there might be some interest, but retaining means you're still "paying" to move him.

also, knowing a little about Trouba, I doubt he'd waive for a Metro team

I agree that NYR-Canes are unlikely trade partners, but Trouba will only have a 15 team no-trade list and I doubt all the Metro teams wind up on it considering he'd likely want to be near NYC (not to mention there's no need to put teams like the Devils, Rangers, Flyers on it anyway).

 

[TGWL]

No from both teams involved. I mean, when they complete the comeback I guess we can send Trouba there to destroy them from within, but I'm pretty sure they fold as an organization before that happens.

Chytil needs to show he can play healthy before a team takes him, especially one that isn't looking for cap.

And NYR would rather keep what they have. I don't see anything remotely close to appealing to both teams here.

 

[bernmeister]

LOL, no they won't - no team is interested in allocating $8M of their cap to Trouba at this stage. Maybe if the Rangers retain there might be some interest, but retaining means you're still "paying" to move him.



I agree that NYR-Canes are unlikely trade partners, but Trouba will only have a 15 team no-trade list and I doubt all the Metro teams wind up on it considering he'd likely want to be near NYC (not to mention there's no need to put teams like the Devils, Rangers, Flyers on it anyway).

Like I said
Rs retain 1.5 for 2 yrs and he commands at min a 2nd + a 3rd
NY recovers 6+ cap relief

 

[dgibb10]

Yeah, well aware of that - but without the NMC, he doesn't have a ton of control...though he could leverage his NTC is a way to really narrow it down to a handful of realistic teams.

Despite his struggles though, I have a hard time believing that the Rangers would be able to move him and think he finishes out his contract with them.

The problem for Trouba is he's a decently productive player but at the same time a cap dump. So not really able to narrow it down.

For example Linus Ullmark is a target for a goalie needy buyer. Easy for him to control his path if he wants

Trouba could be sent as a cap dump to a bottom feeder, or in a bad contract change of scenery to a better team, or retained to a buying team.

 

[pld459666]

IMPORTANT NOTES
(1) This is a scenario where Pesce and Skjei both leave CAR as UFAs
(2) NYR are very likely trading Trouba this summer or possibly next summer
(3) There are a limited number of teams Trouba would waive for that also maybe want him
(4) NYR need cap for Lindgren Schneider Kakko now, Miller Shesterkin Lafreniere next summer
(5) CAR likely isn't interested in 6 more years of Kotkaniemi, but would still need a 2C/3C

to New York Rangers
Jesperi Kotkaniemi (6y @ $4.8200m)
( $7.6175m in cap space )

to Carolina Hurricanes
Filip Chytil (3y @ $4.4375m)
Jacob Trouba (2y @ $8.0000m)

Hell no

 

[lanceuppercut75]

Verdict seems to be: both teams hate it.

Maybe that means it will happen... Would be hilarious in that case.

 

[Petes2424]

read it 10 times,
still can't see any reason NYR would even consider this

NYR love Chytil and appreciate Trouba
(i know many here at HFB think that the vocal haters at HFB represent reality, but no, not really)

if/when Trouba is moved, NYR won't be 'paying' to move Trouba, team(s) will want him

Kotkaniemi offers nothing NYR seeks and ain't worth that Cap Hit to NYR

also, knowing a little about Trouba, I doubt he'd waive for a Metro team

Right. It’s the bizarre world of Twitter and websites like this this, who invent these storylines with players that simply don’t exist in reality.

Is he overpaid? Sure. So are many good players. If the Rangers move Trouba, there would be plenty of suitors. They may not get a premium package for him, but plenty of teams would be willing to make a very fair deal. Because of the AAV they will have to take money back, but that happens with many trades.

For example, the Rangers need a player like Andrew Copp in their lineup, more than almost anything else.. He’s overpaid in Detroit for the next couple of years. They can make a deal for Copp and something else added. Filling a huge hole in their forward group ,and gaining cap dollars. While Detroit having Compher to take Copp’s role, add a dman who would make a big difference on their blue line, and their cap only goes up a few million.

Players aren’t suddenly garbage because they’re overpaid. Copp’s another great example. He’s one of the best PKers and 3rd line players in the league, who can play up and down anyone’s lineup…. but if you follow the strange logic on sites like this, he’s pure garbage. It’s ridiculous. He’s just overpaid by about $1.5 million, and didn’t meet the expectations of unrealistic fans, who thought he’d be a 60 point player. That’s on those fans for not understanding the player and the game.

For whatever reason, we have this base of hockey fans in this generation, who are addicted to stats and analytics ONLY, who frankly don’t watch the game anymore.. You can tell talking to them. Stats have become gospel to these people, rather than actually watching players play games. You would think they’d realize by now, the heavy analytical managers fail miserably in overall talent assessments. Yet they keep up their addictions like crack addicts.

Trouba may be traded (this summer) to use that AAV in other areas. It’s logical. They’re deep on the blue line and he’s likely not extending there. If they end up buying him out though, it’s only because they didn’t want to take any money back, and it’s hard for teams to take that much money without sending money back. If that happens, some team is gonna get a very nice piece to their blue line without having to give anything up.

 

[Scintillating10]

KK does have those hot spells every once in awhile. He was among our best players in the bubble. Scored game winning goal game 6 against Leafs. Problem is his hot spells are few and far in between

 

[HBK27]

Like I said
Rs retain 1.5 for 2 yrs and he commands at min a 2nd + a 3rd
NY recovers 6+ cap relief

Good luck with that. I'll gladly eat crow if Trouba returns anything of value.

 

[bernmeister]

Right. It’s the bizarre world of Twitter and websites like this this, who invent these storylines with players that simply don’t exist in reality.

Is he overpaid? Sure. So are many good players. If the Rangers move Trouba, there would be plenty of suitors. They may not get a premium package for him, but plenty of teams would be willing to make a very fair deal. Because of the AAV they will have to take money back, but that happens with many trades.

For example, the Rangers need a player like Andrew Copp in their lineup, more than almost anything else.. He’s overpaid in Detroit for the next couple of years. They can make a deal for Copp and something else added. Filling a huge hole in their forward group ,and gaining cap dollars. While Detroit having Compher to take Copp’s role, add a dman who would make a big difference on their blue line, and their cap only goes up a few million.

Players aren’t suddenly garbage because they’re overpaid. Copp’s another great example. He’s one of the best PKers and 3rd line players in the league, who can play up and down anyone’s lineup…. but if you follow the strange logic on sites like this, he’s pure garbage. It’s ridiculous. He’s just overpaid by about $1.5 million, and didn’t meet the expectations of unrealistic fans, who thought he’d be a 60 point player. That’s on those fans for not understanding the player and the game.

For whatever reason, we have this base of hockey fans in this generation, who are addicted to stats and analytics ONLY, who frankly don’t watch the game anymore.. You can tell talking to them. Stats have become gospel to these people, rather than actually watching players play games. You would think they’d realize by now, the heavy analytical managers fail miserably in overall talent assessments. Yet they keep up their addictions like crack addicts.

Trouba may be traded (this summer) to use that AAV in other areas. It’s logical. They’re deep on the blue line and he’s likely not extending there. If they end up buying him out though, it’s only because they didn’t want to take any money back, and it’s hard for teams to take that much money without sending money back. If that happens, some team is gonna get a very nice piece to their blue line without having to give anything up.

general agree
we are not doing vet for vet retaining salary and are moving on from Copp

Good luck with that. I'll gladly eat crow if Trouba returns anything of value.

zero reason to think they can't move him for a minimal return to recover cap
remember
RD = position in demand, due to short supply