# Feel The Chill - Official [CHL] St. Charles Chill thread



## Ritchey27

I am covering the St. Charles Chill this season so here are some of the early articles I've posted covering the clubs inaugural season.


St. Charles Chill Invite Four Players To Training Camp

St. Charles Chill Add More Local Talent

St. Charles Chill Ink Steve MakWay and Riley Emmerson

Training Camp Opens For St. Charles Chill


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## CrazyEddie20

Got any info on season ticket sales? 

I'll be shocked if this team lasts two seasons.


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## Ritchey27

CrazyEddie20 said:


> Got any info on season ticket sales?
> 
> I'll be shocked if this team lasts two seasons.




The response has been amazing by the fans. The River Otters who used to play there used to have a pretty good following and with the staff there, I could see this team lasting here for a while. Especially with the class of players who are with the team.


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## CrazyEddie20

Randall Ritchey said:


> The response has been amazing by the fans. The River Otters who used to play there used to have a pretty good following and with the staff there, I could see this team lasting here for a while. Especially with the class of players who are with the team.




Even if the league collapses after this season?


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## Sports Enthusiast

Randall Ritchey said:


> The response has been amazing by the fans. The River Otters who used to play there used to have a pretty good following and with the staff there, I could see this team lasting here for a while. Especially with the class of players who are with the team.




What minor league AA stars signed there?(Curiously asking not giving you a hard time like Crazy Edward here)


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## CrazyEddie20

SFTC Addict said:


> What minor league AA stars signed there?(Curiously asking not giving you a hard time like Crazy Edward here)




It's Crazy Eduardo to you, Ryan. I'm Hispanic.


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## Sports Enthusiast

CrazyEddie20 said:


> It's Crazy Eduardo to you, Ryan. I'm Hispanic.




My name isn't Ryan.

But noted. Now I will officially await the thread originators reply.


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## mk80

As a college student living about 5 minutes from the Family Arena, I have been watching the signings over the past couple weeks.

We have a few guys that we signed who have spent time in the ECHL. We were also assigned Mathieu Corbeil and another from the Utica Comets in the AHL. There is a couple guys out of college and the SPHL... we do have one player I saw that has been playing in Europe the past few seasons but has had some considerable time in the AHL I forget who at the moment.

I think Corbeil is probably the most talented player on the roster (but that is just a personal opinion).


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## intangible

I went to the first day of training camp and was at the tryouts.. honestly, not impressed. Corbeil looked okay, but I expected more. Moss looked terrible in the scrimmage, McFarland looked good but I guess had a bad practice; the others were mediocre at best. 

Forwards wise there are 2-3 fast guys, but most of the others were ungodly slow. Surprisingly slow for guys who played mostly pro last season. There was no urgency to the scrimmage.. like the guys didn't care.

Ticket prices are terribly expensive.. was hoping the cheapest tickets would be in the $8-$10 range. Was thinking of getting season tickets, but at over $300/seat for the crappiest of crappy seats, I can't afford to even get two seats to take one of my sons each game. For the homeopener I'm going to take two of my sons, and it will cost me over $60 (they're 6 and 4, btw), not including parking, and those are for the better of the crappy seats.

In comparison, when the Otters were here I went to a good 10-15 games and paid maybe $15-$20 for good, middle of the ice seats about 10-15 rows up from ice level. Those same seats are $32 now. For $32 I'll go see the Blues. Even worse, with 3 season pricing they've essentially pigeonholed themselves into charging that much for the entire season and thereafter.

I was really, really excited about the Chill, but I'm so down about the team now thanks to prices I simply won't be able to go to more than 2-3 games with my boys or with friends and sit in even adequate seating. Agreed with CrazyEddie that the team won't last past two seasons, if not one. Lower the ticket prices drastically (to meet the level of hockey) and then we'll talk.


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## Ritchey27

SFTC Addict said:


> What minor league AA stars signed there?(Curiously asking not giving you a hard time like Crazy Edward here)




They have Mathieu Corbeil who was assigned to the club after being sent down by the Canucks. 
Chad Costello, former ECHL MVP has signed with the club. 
They have a young kid in Max Mobley who could take this league by storm. He's fast, skilled offensively and not inept defensively. 
Jordan Fox as joined the team after playing in the UK. 
Steve Makway has joined the team as well.

They have offensive depth, good two way players and a strong defense. With Corbeil in net, they could end up being a team to be reckoned with. It was just a pre-season game last night but they dominated the Mavericks last night shutting them out 2-0 with the use of all three goalies.


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## mk80

The highest priced tickets for the Chill are the nosebleed prices for the Blues, I don't know about you guys, but I don't mind paying that price to have a nice seat at the a Chill game.


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## nottchi

Jordan Fox played for my team in the UK last 2 seasons.
He was the captain last season bringing us our 1st league championship in 56 years! He's certainly missed by the fans here.

He reads the game well and scored some amazing goals. His stats for last season might be a little off as he was made to play (way too many) games on defense instead of his normal forward role but he still did good at the back.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Fox is pretty ancient now. I'm pretty sure he saw some time in the old UHL with Flint if memory serves. He's a 2nd liner at best(maybe more appropriately a 3rd. Hi career stats are nothing special. Guys is more of a flea.


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## Ritchey27

Roster Moves And New Affiliation, Good a For Chill


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## Ritchey27

SFTC Addict said:


> Fox is pretty ancient now. I'm pretty sure he saw some time in the old UHL with Flint if memory serves. He's a 2nd liner at best(maybe more appropriately a 3rd. Hi career stats are nothing special. Guys is more of a flea.




Fox is ancient? He's 29 years old who can produce at a point a game pace. Third liner? Not even close.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Randall Ritchey said:


> Fox is ancient? He's 29 years old who can produce at a point a game pace. Third liner? Not even close.




Maybe it will be different in the CHL but when he was in the ECHL he was no first liner when with Wheeling.


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## SeaToby

intangible said:


> I went to the first day of training camp and was at the tryouts.. honestly, not impressed. Corbeil looked okay, but I expected more. Moss looked terrible in the scrimmage, McFarland looked good but I guess had a bad practice; the others were mediocre at best.
> 
> Forwards wise there are 2-3 fast guys, but most of the others were ungodly slow. Surprisingly slow for guys who played mostly pro last season. There was no urgency to the scrimmage.. like the guys didn't care.
> 
> Ticket prices are terribly expensive.. was hoping the cheapest tickets would be in the $8-$10 range. Was thinking of getting season tickets, but at over $300/seat for the crappiest of crappy seats, I can't afford to even get two seats to take one of my sons each game. For the homeopener I'm going to take two of my sons, and it will cost me over $60 (they're 6 and 4, btw), not including parking, and those are for the better of the crappy seats.
> 
> In comparison, when the Otters were here I went to a good 10-15 games and paid maybe $15-$20 for good, middle of the ice seats about 10-15 rows up from ice level. Those same seats are $32 now. For $32 I'll go see the Blues. Even worse, with 3 season pricing they've essentially pigeonholed themselves into charging that much for the entire season and thereafter.
> 
> I was really, really excited about the Chill, but I'm so down about the team now thanks to prices I simply won't be able to go to more than 2-3 games with my boys or with friends and sit in even adequate seating. Agreed with CrazyEddie that the team won't last past two seasons, if not one. Lower the ticket prices drastically (to meet the level of hockey) and then we'll talk.




Yes, the Blues cheap seats are in the rafters and on the ends. You can get a very good seat for around the price of a movie admission close to the ice for less, but maybe not in the middle. How many items can you buy now for the same price as you did ten years ago when the Otters were around? Simply put every seat in the house for the Chill are cheaper than any seat for the Blues except maybe glass row seats. FACT. No lie.


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## mk80

Exactly Seatoby! A lot of other products have higher prices than when the Otters were around. And like I said in some other posts I'd rather pay the Chill prices for nice seats than nosebleed seats at a Blues game.


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## Cyclones Rock

mk80 said:


> Exactly Seatoby! A lot of other products have higher prices than when the Otters were around. And like I said in some other posts I'd rather pay the Chill prices for nice seats than nosebleed seats at a Blues game.




Don't want to rain on the parade, but Blues seats can be had for very little:

http://www.stubhub.com/st-louis-blu...int-louis-scottrade-center-7-11-2013-4323752/


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## Ritchey27

Cyclones Rock said:


> Don't want to rain on the parade, but Blues seats can be had for very little:
> 
> http://www.stubhub.com/st-louis-blu...int-louis-scottrade-center-7-11-2013-4323752/




Big difference between stubhub prices and the Blues prices. Yes you can land some good Blues nose bleeds for cheap, but you can get some lower bowl Chill seats for really cheap.


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## Ritchey27

The St. Charles Chill Earn A Point In A 3-2 Shootout Loss To The Missouri Mavericks


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## mfrerkes

Randall Ritchey said:


> Big difference between stubhub prices and the Blues prices. Yes you can land some good Blues nose bleeds for cheap, but you can get some lower bowl Chill seats for really cheap.




If the opening night attendance is any indication -- and I believe it is -- people in Saint Louis will gladly pay more to see the Blues from a greater distance. The Chill and the Beast are "Exhibits A & B" in the negligent decision-making of CHL executives. I just hope markets like Missouri, Rapid City, and Allen get out of this quicksand before it drags them into the abyss as well.


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## UticaHockey

How is Mathieu Corbeil doing? I thought he looked good during the Utica Comets camp but our other two goalies both have NHL two way contracts and Corbeil was signed to just an AHL contract so he was the odd man out.


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## Ritchey27

UticaHockey said:


> How is Mathieu Corbeil doing? I thought he looked good during the Utica Comets camp but our other two goalies both have NHL two way contracts and Corbeil was signed to just an AHL contract so he was the odd man out.




He kept the Chill in the game when the Mavericks dominated the game. He was superb.


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## mfrerkes

Attendance for the Chill's Friday night game versus Allen was 1107.

http://chl.stats.pointstreak.com/gamesheet_full.html?gameid=2239148

Somebody had better figure out how to get some butts in those seats. Quickly.


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## mk80

1107 is pitiful for a Friday night! I say that even with the optimistic attitude I have for them. I realize the River Otters didn't work out in the end, but I expect the Chill to have at least 2-2500 fans on weekend game... the attendance for tonight was similar to what I was expecting to see on Wednesday night's game against the Mavericks.


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## mfrerkes

mk80 said:


> 1107 is pitiful for a Friday night! I say that even with the optimistic attitude I have for them. I realize the River Otters didn't work out in the end, but I expect the Chill to have at least 2-2500 fans on weekend game... the attendance for tonight was similar to what I was expecting to see on Wednesday night's game against the Mavericks.




If these numbers continue to hold, I don't see this club making it beyond March. Financial losses of this magnitude are not sustainable for an extended period of time.


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## mk80

Well not sustainable for the CHL, but they might be wise to try things out in the SPHL for a year or two, as their attendance levels are better suited to that and St. Charles was named as a possible market for SPHL's future north division. 

The other route that possibly (and a strong possibility of failing) is a move to the ECHL and stack that team with Blues prospects. But SPHL or fold will likely bet the path for them


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## mfrerkes

It's a Sunday game for the Chill today. Wanna bet they draw less than a thousand this afternoon? Denver couldn't get 900 on a Saturday night.


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## intangible

Half off all drinks* and hot dogs today, but I don't see it putting butts in seats. Problem is, when you're charging people $5 for a bottle of Pepsi.. yes.. the bottles you get at vending machine for $1.. even at $2.50 it's finally just hitting "almost acceptable." I didn't get a hot dog on opening night, but I did get pretzels and cheese at $6.50. They were gross, by the way.. ended up giving them to my 6 year old son, who happily ate the tasteless cardboard.

For those comparing Chill and the Blues, I have to LOL. Maybe even LMAO. When I said "For $32 I'll just go to a Blues game," I meant, "$32 is overpriced for this level of hockey, and I'd rather pay a little extra and go see actual stars."

As I've said previously, this team won't last past the year. With such dismal attendance so far, I'm not even sure how they rebound. Can't reduce ticket prices or otherwise season ticket holders will get pissed.

Sad thing was I was probably their prime target market: late 20s/early 30s male, big family, business owner, huge hockey fan. I was considering getting season tickets for a couple seats or even a sponsorship, but the prices of both tickets and concessions will keep me away beyond maybe a few games this season. And now that I've seen them reduce ticket prices the day of the game (for the home opener, for which I bought three tickets at regular price), I won't ever buy tickets in advance again.

*Another chapter in the How Not to Run an Organization and Treat Fans, the Chill just posted on Facebook that only SELECT drinks are half off... while over the course of the past 2-3 days they've been saying it's half off ALL drinks. Hilarious. It's like they think we won't notice when you reduce prices on the day of the game, screwing over those of us who paid full price or for season tickets, or when you change your deals.


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## mk80

Unfortunately the Chill have no control over concessions, the prices are set by the Family Arena (City of St. Charles), if the Chill could get the prices lowered a bit that would reduce complaints and therefore would lead to a more positive experience however, as a county employee (I assume the St. Charles city government runs similar) we are slow to change/ respond to complaints.

Also 1,033 at tonights game according to the stats sheet. So we are still above Denver for attendance, but the attendance needs to rise and fast!


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## mfrerkes

mk80 said:


> Also 1,033 at tonights game according to the stats sheet. So we are still above Denver for attendance, but the attendance needs to rise and fast!




That doesn't just suddenly happen in minor league hockey. It especially doesn't happen in a market where AA hockey already failed (River Otters) and NHL hockey (Blues) is present.

The CHL will keep running around with its hair on fire -- smiling the whole time -- denying that any problem exists.


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## intangible

Mind you, the Otters never had an average attendance under 2,446, and went under when it was at its highest, at 5,906. That's a long ways to go from 1,033.

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=6901


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## mfrerkes

844 on a Wednesday night for the Chill, who were getting slaughtered by the Mavs 6-1 in the third period.

The Cardinals are in the World Series...yada yada yada. Nevertheless, I don't think the Chill would have much more than 844 even if the Cards were sitting idle now. The CHL has two or three franchises that already look DOA next season.

How much longer can the CHL keep this thing off the ground?


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## mk80

I was at tonight's game and there was definitely not 844 people there... MAYBE 90 people by my count unless hundreds were wearing invisible Halloween costumes.

The Chill should be drawing at least what the River Otters were getting in their last years which was roughly 2500 give or take a couple hundred. You would think the Chill would manage to have gained that much of a fan base from the remnants the Otters left behind. But so far attendance figures are TERRIBLE! 

Maybe it will turn around a little since baseball is over and general sports fans that don't want to go to many Blues games are free will check out the Chill, but we will see.


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## intangible

I saw the attendance figure earlier.. ouch.

Doesn't take much to see why they aren't filling the seats: more and more people complaining about ticket prices and concessions prices. Then if you complain about them, you may or may not get a personal message about calling the ticket box for half price tickets or an excuse that they don't set the concession prices.

Look, I get that you don't set the concession prices. I don't care. That still factors into my decision to attend or sit at home. Likewise, the overpriced tickets -- and then you get the homers who said it's dirt cheap compared to the Blues, which it isn't, and, in fact, is more expensive in some ways than the Chicago Wolves -- drive more people away. $32 for mid-level tickets? Seriously? For CHL hockey?

I also wasn't the only one to notice that the promotion for half off drinks was changed from all drinks to select drinks.

I mean, really. Really.


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## mfrerkes

intangible said:


> $32 for mid-level tickets? Seriously? For CHL hockey?




At the beginning of the season, I thought Brampton was going to be the "One & Done" team after March. I'm now officially switching my prediction to Saint Charles.

I honestly don't see how this train wreck returns for another season. If it does, we'll be seeing FHL/AAHL attendance figures next fall. And not the Danbury kind, either.


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## intangible

1,940 tonight, but with the caveat that it was $5 ticket night for ANYONE who mentioned the military, lol. (And they also walked around St. Charles today and handed out free tickets.) I'd be so pissed off if I bad bought tickets or was a season ticket holder. Learned my lesson.

In comparison, btw, the River Otters average attendance was 2,446 in its first year. Even with $5 tickets on a Saturday night they have a while to go.


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## CrazyEddie20

mfrerkes said:


> At the beginning of the season, I thought Brampton was going to be the "One & Done" team after March. I'm now officially switching my prediction to Saint Charles.
> 
> I honestly don't see how this train wreck returns for another season. If it does, we'll be seeing FHL/AAHL attendance figures next fall. And not the Danbury kind, either.




The way these two organizations are going, neither of them will last through the end of the regular season.


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## mfrerkes

CrazyEddie20 said:


> The way these two organizations are going, neither of them will last through the end of the regular season.




I can't believe the league ever calculated this would work out differently. Saint Charles didn't fare too well with the River Otters. Did they honestly think Saint Louis hockey fans would warm up to a league that's in even worse shape than the UHL was back in 2006?

Then there's Brampton. Junior hockey does quite well in Canada, yet Brampton turned an obvious cold shoulder to it all. So, we're supposed believe that a struggling professional league based primarily in the American Great Plains was going to have wider appeal to local hockey fans?

This is my biggest gripe with the CHL. Their business plan is not based on sane, rational ideas. Instead, it seems like an unflattering combination of fairy tales and utter desperation.


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## intangible

mfrerkes said:


> Saint Charles didn't fare too well with the River Otters. Did they honestly think Saint Louis hockey fans would warm up to a league that's in even worse shape than the UHL was back in 2006?




At the end, I thought the River Otters did really well, as they averaged just over 5,900 in attendance. Not sure what it takes to break even, but it was fun, entertaining hockey, good ticket prices, and concessions weren't too bad, if memory serves me correctly.

What it looked like they tried to do in St. Charles was hope to hell that all the local player connections would fill the seats. Problem is, barely anyone here even knows those local players. Outside of Janssen, no one really cares.. not even about Brandon Bollig. I'm sure he's a nice guy and all, but he's not an exciting player like Janssen was (even if he was terrible, skill-wise).

People here don't feel a connection to the Chill at all. Which is odd because I used to ask guys all the time if they were going, if they were interested in season tickets.. absolutely no one was. I'm not sure what happened or why people didn't even initially take note of the team, but it seemed dead in the water even before ticket prices were released and overwhelmingly questioned.

I wholly agree that this team might not last til the end of the season.


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## jabberoski

intangible said:


> At the end, I thought the River Otters did really well, as they averaged just over 5,900 in attendance. Not sure what it takes to break even, but it was fun, entertaining hockey, good ticket prices, and concessions weren't too bad, if memory serves me correctly.
> 
> What it looked like they tried to do in St. Charles was hope to hell that all the local player connections would fill the seats. Problem is, barely anyone here even knows those local players. Outside of Janssen, no one really cares.. not even about Brandon Bollig. I'm sure he's a nice guy and all, but he's not an exciting player like Janssen was (even if he was terrible, skill-wise).
> 
> People here don't feel a connection to the Chill at all. Which is odd because I used to ask guys all the time if they were going, if they were interested in season tickets.. absolutely no one was. I'm not sure what happened or why people didn't even initially take note of the team, but it seemed dead in the water even before ticket prices were released and overwhelmingly questioned.
> 
> I wholly agree that this team might not last til the end of the season.




They averaged 5,906 their first year, and went down considerably (1,800 per game) in year two. 

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=6901

They were at 2,446 in their last season.


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## intangible

jabberoski said:


> They averaged 5,906 their first year, and went down considerably (1,800 per game) in year two.
> 
> http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=6901
> 
> They were at 2,446 in their last season.




Holy crap, this whole time I've been reading that graph upside down. Whoops! Sorry about that!


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## mk80

The Otters seemed to have a better community appeal, whether that was through better marketing, or whether people had more discretionary income, ect. They did a lot a better a bringing fans into the build than the Chill have done so far. 

I think the best shot for St. Charles is selling the Family Arena to Lindenwood University who has expressed interest in buying it, in exchange for the Daniel Boone Home (owned by the university).

Lindenwood already holds their gardaution ceremony there, and they have NCAA D1 Women's hockey in the CHA, as well as Men's ACHA D1 and D2. I know they would eventually like to get the Men's team to D1 sometime down the road. The Family Arena is a short drive from campus for students. Not sure how D1 NCAA hockey would work there but Lindenwood has had talks in the past with St. Charles about purchasing it. In fact last year before the Arena football, soccer, and Chill teams were anounced Lindenwood submitted an offer sheet for it.

For those of you unfamiliar with Lindenwood: (and I don't mean to advertise believe me) but here are their sports websites. 

NCAA D2 Athletics (Plus D1 Women's Hockey): http://www.lindenwoodlions.com/
Student Life Sports (ACHA Men's Hockey): http://www.lindenwoodlionssls.com/


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## mfrerkes

mk80 said:


> The Otters seemed to have a better community appeal, whether that was through better marketing, or whether people had more discretionary income, ect. They did a lot a better a bringing fans into the build than the Chill have done so far.




The Otters were playing back in a different era (pre-2007) before the housing crash and economic collapse began. Minor league sports isn't nearly as recession-proof as the big leagues are. Economics certainly does factor into this equation, but I'd have to say it isn't the dominant issue.

I think the shaky inception of the franchise, coupled with the fact it is a tied to a losing CHL business model, are the main problems facing Saint Charles. The ownership did not hit the ground running. Instead, they just hit the ground and crawled on their belly. Travel expenses in the CHL are untenable for that level of hockey. If there's any mercy at all left in the world, this will be the league's last season.

That said, I'm still leaning towards the CHL attempting to move forward in 2014-15.


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## BluesOne31

mk80 said:


> The Otters seemed to have a better community appeal, whether that was through better marketing, or whether people had more discretionary income, ect. They did a lot a better a bringing fans into the build than the Chill have done so far.
> 
> I think the best shot for St. Charles is selling the Family Arena to Lindenwood University who has expressed interest in buying it, in exchange for the Daniel Boone Home (owned by the university).
> 
> Lindenwood already holds their gardaution ceremony there, and they have NCAA D1 Women's hockey in the CHA, as well as Men's ACHA D1 and D2. I know they would eventually like to get the Men's team to D1 sometime down the road. The Family Arena is a short drive from campus for students. Not sure how D1 NCAA hockey would work there but Lindenwood has had talks in the past with St. Charles about purchasing it. In fact last year before the Arena football, soccer, and Chill teams were anounced Lindenwood submitted an offer sheet for it.
> 
> For those of you unfamiliar with Lindenwood: (and I don't mean to advertise believe me) but here are their sports websites.
> 
> NCAA D2 Athletics (Plus D1 Women's Hockey): http://www.lindenwoodlions.com/
> Student Life Sports (ACHA Men's Hockey): http://www.lindenwoodlionssls.com/




This is exactly what the city needs to do. This would be the perfect time for Lindenwood to buy it with the growth they've had the last 5-10 years. And especially with the school currently using the ice rink in Wentzville to host their hockey games.

The new indoor soccer team is going to do nothing but fail as well with the ticket prices they put out (if they still even plan on playing).

For now the Family Arena is just a black hole hosting HS and college graduations.


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## intangible

BluesOne31 said:


> For now the Family Arena is just a black hole hosting HS and college graduations.




Well that's not entirely true. They have a ton of concerts there, including Tool a couple years ago. Incredible concert in there, btw.


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## Cyclones Rock

http://hockeymayhem.com/index.php?showtopic=41171&st=0

These photos from a Chill game say it all. There aren't more than 250 in the "crowd". Official attendance figures often times mean nothing. I trust my eyes more than a number which is obviously inaccurate. The concept of a high percentage of paid tickets not showing is a silly one save for the odd snow or ice storm. Fake attendance numbers are easily determinable and the Chill doesn't pass the smell test. Even if their numbers were accurate, they'd be in deep hockey stew.

I attended about half of the ill-fated Columbus Stars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Stars. The Stars real attendance was in the 200-300 per game average. The team folded in early January of its first year.

The first ownership of the Dayton Gems of the CHL (Rich Bruner-a third rate con man) couldn't make it past Thanksgiving 2009. That team may have had a real attendance of 500-700 per game. Another ownership group stepped in (foolishly) and supported that sunk ship for another 3 years.

The Chill looks like it could go into deep freeze at any moment.


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## intangible

Whoa.. that's crazy few people in attendance. Didn't realize it was that bad. I only went to the home opener.. seemed to be a good sized crowd, especially on the bench side of the arena.


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## BluesOne31

intangible said:


> Well that's not entirely true. They have a ton of concerts there, including Tool a couple years ago. Incredible concert in there, btw.




Yeah, what I meant to say was there at least needs to be some type of successful sport entity in there. Not just random events like graduations, concerts, etc.


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## mfrerkes

Cyclones Rock said:


> The Chill looks like it could go into deep freeze at any moment.




Don't count on it. Their numbers are awful -- and under normal circumstances a team like this would fold quickly -- but this is not a normal circumstance. The Missouri Mavericks own the Chill. They have doubled down on the CHL, so I'd bet they'll eat those big losses for the entire season before quietly pulling the plug over the summer.

The Mavericks are probably pulling in enough coin to keep this hapless affair going through March. I suspect (and hope) that we'll see significant franchise movement during the upcoming off-season. Maybe Rapid City and Allen can find a legal way to break free. Wichita may decide that pulling Tulsa's wagon is too much work. Brampton will have taken on water as well, so that franchise could be huge question mark. Does anyone think Denver will come back for another round of this?

The CHL will try to keep the shaky alliances together next summer, but they're fighting an uphill battle. I don't expect any real "franchise fireworks" in this league until after the last regular season game is played. That includes the Chill, who are lucky enough to have the Mavericks as their sugar daddy.


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## mk80

BluesOne31 said:


> Yeah, what I meant to say was there at least needs to be some type of successful sport entity in there. Not just random events like graduations, concerts, etc.





Well I'm sure when Lindenwood buys it they will still have concerts and things (they'd be foolish not too with the revenue it brings in) and the arena wouldn't be at full capacity for the hockey games but I'd say most of the lower bowl could be filled. The only thing that might keep concerts and shows out is Lindenwood's dry campus policy so when they buy it I'm sure they will stop Alcohol sales there. But who knows, they are building a new mixed gender dorm along with the shopping center across 94 from campus. The dorm will be the first mixed gender dorm for LU.


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## Cyclones Rock

mfrerkes said:


> Don't count on it. Their numbers are awful -- and under normal circumstances a team like this would fold quickly -- but this is not a normal circumstance. The Missouri Mavericks own the Chill. They have doubled down on the CHL, so I'd bet they'll eat those big losses for the entire season before quietly pulling the plug over the summer.
> 
> The Mavericks are probably pulling in enough coin to keep this hapless affair going through March. I suspect (and hope) that we'll see significant franchise movement during the upcoming off-season. Maybe Rapid City and Allen can find a legal way to break free. Wichita may decide that pulling Tulsa's wagon is too much work. Brampton will have taken on water as well, so that franchise could be huge question mark. Does anyone think Denver will come back for another round of this?
> 
> The CHL will try to keep the shaky alliances together next summer, but they're fighting an uphill battle. I don't expect any real "franchise fireworks" in this league until after the last regular season game is played. That includes the Chill, who are lucky enough to have the Mavericks as their sugar daddy.




I did not know that the Chill was owned by another team. Reminds me of the IHL when the Frankes of Fort Wayne were propping up both Flint and Bloomington. 

When Global was bought out of the ownership of the league, I assumed that the obstacles to moving out of the league would have disappeared as well. The ECHL has already been willing to take in Allen and Rapid City, and I'd see no reason why Tulsa (I'm not aware of the troubles which you implied that this franchise was having-I'll take your word on this), Missouri and Wichita wouldn't be welcomed. Long term survival for Brampton, St. Charles , Denver, Arizona and Quad City all seem highly unlikely-at least at the AA level.

Evansville and Fort Wayne made the jump. Allen and Rapid City did as well and were only thwarted by legal maneuvers. I can't imagine that the ownership of Allen and Rapid City would have been on board for the purchase of the league from Global if the status quo of forbidding franchise movement to another league was maintained. I could be wrong, but I think that the purchase of the league from Global was probably done to insure the long term health of the league's viable franchises. The healthy franchises would seem to be obligated to move on from the failed CHL/Global model and a move to the ECHL for these franchises would appear to be the most viable option. We shall see this off season if I'm right or wrong.


----------



## mfrerkes

Cyclones Rock said:


> I did not know that the Chill was owned by another team. Reminds me of the IHL when the Frankes of Fort Wayne were propping up both Flint and Bloomington.




You pretty much nailed it. Jim Treliving, who was the CHL's sole owner up until recently, has been moving all kinds of resources to prop up his dying league. He took over the Mallards last fall when yet another ownership group bailed over the summer. He likely pushed Missouri and Wichita to take over control of two teams; Saint Charles and Tulsa. The expansion move into Brampton just reeks of desperation. It's a Hail Mary attempt at keeping the numbers game up in a rapidly disintegrating league. 



Cyclones Rock said:


> When Global was bought out of the ownership of the league, I assumed that the obstacles to moving out of the league would have disappeared as well. The ECHL has already been willing to take in Allen and Rapid City, and I'd see no reason why Tulsa (I'm not aware of the troubles which you implied that this franchise was having-I'll take your word on this), Missouri and Wichita wouldn't be welcomed. Long term survival for Brampton, St. Charles , Denver, Arizona and Quad City all seem highly unlikely-at least at the AA level.




Wichita's acquisition of Tulsa happened very quietly over the summer. You don't have to take my word about the precarious nature of Tulsa. The Wichita Business Journal reported that the Thunder bought the team to "revitalize" the Oilers, and because the Oilers were reportedly looking to jump ship.

http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/morning_call/2013/07/tulsa-oilers-purchase-could-help.html

That same publication earlier quoted the Thunder's owner as stating there were substantial financial concerns in Tulsa, and that the Oilers seemed poised to leave the CHL. Wichita essentially bought the team to save the existence of the CHL:

http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/.../28/stevens-see-purchase-of-tulsa-oilers.html

I know a Tulsa fan on another forum who stated their opening night attendance was drastically inflated. He said actual "butts in the seats" were a few thousand lower than the published figure. Tulsa isn't the financial anchor everybody thinks it is. That certainly spells even more trouble for the CHL's ability to keep moving along.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

mfrerkes said:


> You pretty much nailed it. Jim Treliving, who was the CHL's sole owner up until recently, has been moving all kinds of resources to prop up his dying league. He took over the Mallards last fall when yet another ownership group bailed over the summer. He likely pushed Missouri and Wichita to take over control of two teams; Saint Charles and Tulsa. The expansion move into Brampton just reeks of desperation. It's a Hail Mary attempt at keeping the numbers game up in a rapidly disintegrating league.
> 
> 
> 
> Wichita's acquisition of Tulsa happened very quietly over the summer. You don't have to take my word about the precarious nature of Tulsa. The Wichita Business Journal reported that the Thunder bought the team to "revitalize" the Oilers, and because the Oilers were reportedly looking to jump ship.
> 
> http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/morning_call/2013/07/tulsa-oilers-purchase-could-help.html
> 
> That same publication earlier quoted the Thunder's owner as stating there were substantial financial concerns in Tulsa, and that the Oilers seemed poised to leave the CHL. Wichita essentially bought the team to save the existence of the CHL:
> 
> http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/.../28/stevens-see-purchase-of-tulsa-oilers.html
> 
> I know a Tulsa fan on another forum who stated their opening night attendance was drastically inflated. He said actual "butts in the seats" were a few thousand lower than the published figure. Tulsa isn't the financial anchor everybody thinks it is. That certainly spells even more trouble for the CHL's ability to keep moving along.




Thanks for the links. So, Tulsa is on the phony baloney attendance count as well. So many announced attendance numbers (at all levels) mean absolutely nothing. Last night, I was at a Columbus Blue Jackets game which was probably not even half full (9000 if it was) and the announced crowd was 13k+. I've learned that many announced attendance numbers are silly fictions and until I've been to a building and seen a game or had a reliable source confirm that the numbers are reasonably accurate, I don't put much stock in announced numbers.

Do you know if Tulsa was considering bolting to the SPHL or junior? I don't recall that franchise ever being in the "jump to the ECHL" mix.

Apparently there are only four viable CHL teams: Wichita, Missouri, Allen and Rapid City. Quad City, St. Charles and Tulsa are being propped up by absentee ownerships. Arizona, Denver, and Brampton aren't drawing anywhere near what they need to survive and two of them (AZ and Brampton) are in absurdly remote locations for AA hockey economics. So, the questions are (please correct me if I'm wrong): 1) Can the CHL legally prevent the 4 viable teams from jumping to the ECHL? 2) How long will the "subsidized" teams' owners accept deep losses? 3) Is Jim Treliving willing to underwrite the league indefinitely with his substantial net worth?

http://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/celebrity-business/men/jim-treliving-net-worth/

Who, other than Treliving, owns the CHL now? I had assumed that the other owners all were essentially equal partners in owing the league. That appears to have been a very poor assumption.

Thanks in advance for any further info.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

A trip down memory lane for those who remember the jokester/frauds that the Frankes put in place to own the Dayton Gems and prop up the rapidly failing IHL. These bozos didn't last until Thanksgiving of season 1.



> TROTWOOD – While the future of the International Hockey League’s Dayton Gems seems secure, the same can’t be said for team president Richard Bruner.
> 
> “It appears the league wants me out,” Bruner said Friday, Nov. 27. “At this stage, I realize I’m probably going to lose my investment.”








http://www.springfieldnewssun.com/n...tly-secure-but-team-president-fears--1/nM62p/

The following was public info PRIOR to the Frankes getting Bruner and Yerrick an IHL franchise to "run":



> The day before opening his second store, he asked me and another manager (who also was naive to his ways) to help him out by cashing a couple checks. He stated that a loan was going to be deposited in the business account in a day or two and that these checks would go through then. We didn't think any big deal so the co-manager and I went out with these checks to get cash so we could go get some supplies.
> 
> Long story short, while we were out he put a stop payment on these checks. Now the check cashing establishments are after me and the other manager. We have asked him numerous times when he was going to take care of these checks and he kept telling us that there was nothing that the check establishments could do to me and other manager. "The checks are business checks, they will come after me and Ryan" is what he told me.
> Its been 3 months and I just filed claim with local authorities.





http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/richa...e-very-cautious-he-is-slick-convincing-417923


In the leopard doesn't change his spots category (dated 8/29/13):



> Richard Bruner and Ryan Yerrick signed a lease purchase agreement. Access for this home was granted to them immediately. Three checks were written by Mr, Bruner and Ryan Yerrick for the down payment, first months payment and deposit. Each check bounced. The information that was given for the purchase agreement was false. They both agreed that they would take their entire tax returns and applie those monitary means to make amends for the lack of funds.
> 
> Soon there after Richard and Ryan both would not return phone calls. We Arrived at the home to give them a letter of eviction, they would not open the door. They would not return phone calls. They changed their phone numbers. We arrived at the property to inspect the home to find they had vacated the home after 4 months. We changed the locks and came back two days latter to find they had broken into the home to take the appliances that were installed in the home. Grate sales individuals but spoken with nothing but lies.





http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/richa...-false-information-fort-wayne-indiana-1080206


Perhaps the CHL could use a couple of experienced hockey owners as front men for one of their troublesome franchises


----------



## mfrerkes

Cyclones Rock said:


> Do you know if Tulsa was considering bolting to the SPHL or junior? I don't recall that franchise ever being in the "jump to the ECHL" mix.




The only rumors I had heard regarding Tulsa's likely league change was the NAHL. Makes sense. There are numerous NAHL teams in neighboring Texas and Kansas, including some ex-CHL markets that played Tulsa during the league's Glory Years.




Cyclones Rock said:


> So, the questions are (please correct me if I'm wrong): 1) Can the CHL legally prevent the 4 viable teams from jumping to the ECHL? 2) How long will the "subsidized" teams' owners accept deep losses? 3) Is Jim Treliving willing to underwrite the league indefinitely with his substantial net worth?




1) It would appear as long as the CHL can maintain a contract-specified minimum number of league members, those teams like RC are bound by their agreement. What that specified minimum actually is continues to be the source of much speculation. I think it is ten teams, but it shockingly could be even lower than that.

2) You're asking the wrong guy. Ask the poor (or should I say RICH) saps who are losing decades of retirement money trying to keep this wounded duck in the air. 

3) Speculation on my part, but possibly. This guy has shown a cult-like dedication to keep the CHL going regardless of how chintzy the whole production might become. That tells me he means it. At least the Frankes had the graciousness to step aside when Flint and Port Huron fled the IHL. I think Treliving possesses much more hubris, sorry to say.



Cyclones Rock said:


> Who, other than Treliving, owns the CHL now? I had assumed that the other owners all were essentially equal partners in owing the league. That appears to have been a very poor assumption.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any further info.



Treliving used to own the CHL lock, stock, and barrel. That just changed over the summer.

The league is now owned by the member teams in equal shares of 10%. As a result, Treliving only has a 10% stake in the league. Since Tulsa/Wichita and Missouri/Saint Charles are dual-ownership situations, each group has a 20% stake in the CHL.


----------



## JeffNYI

Cyclones Rock said:


> A trip down memory lane for those who remember the jokester/frauds that the Frankes put in place to own the Dayton Gems and prop up the rapidly failing IHL. These bozos didn't last until Thanksgiving of season 1.




Dude. You don't even know.

I had the pleasure of discovering and going through all of Rich and Ryan's data from their time in charge of the team.. 

MOD


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## Cyclones Rock

mfrerkes said:


> .
> 
> 
> Treliving used to own the CHL lock, stock, and barrel. That just changed over the summer.
> 
> The league is now owned by the member teams in equal shares of 10%. As a result, Treliving only has a 10% stake in the league. Since Tulsa/Wichita and Missouri/Saint Charles are dual-ownership situations, each group has a 20% stake in the CHL.




First, thanks for all of your information.

Now, wouldn't Treliving's sale of the league to league members almost certainly open the door to the demise of the league? If Wichita and Missouri's ownership decide to pursue the ECHL, the each of these ownership's 20% stakes combined with the 10% interests of the Allen and RC ownerships would-on the surface, anyway-give these ownerships the leverage needed to ultimately leave the league.

Why would someone purported to be as wealthy as Treliving is sell off the league-especially to a few organizations (RC and Allen) which are only still in the league due to legal maneuvers-if he were hell bent on its continuation. The sale of the parts couldn't have generated any more than a couple $million or so and Treliving's worth is supposedly in the $ half a billion neighborhood. The sale wouldn't have appeared to have been necessary financially and certainly opened the box, at the least, to the dissolution of the CHL via defection of the four viable franchises to the ECHL.

I'm not seeing the full picture of Treliving's motivation to sell. The only reasonable explanation to me is that the net worth figure that I found on him is completely bogus and he's not worth huge money. Help me see it if you can.


----------



## LadyStanley

*MOD WARNING:* Be very careful when posting derogatory comments about people as it might be considered slander or libel.

If at all possible provide links to news articles describing the situation.


----------



## mfrerkes

Cyclones Rock said:


> First, thanks for all of your information.




You're more than welcome. It's actually kind of fun discussing this stuff with somebody who is interested, knowledgeable, and not personally invested in a particular outcome with the CHL.



Cyclones Rock said:


> Now, wouldn't Treliving's sale of the league to league members almost certainly open the door to the demise of the league? If Wichita and Missouri's ownership decide to pursue the ECHL, the each of these ownership's 20% stakes combined with the 10% interests of the Allen and RC ownerships would-on the surface, anyway-give these ownerships the leverage needed to ultimately leave the league.




I was also puzzled by that arrangement when it was announced. The only thing I can come up with is this:

It was a bone Treliving threw to Allen and Rapid City as part of their continued membership in the CHL. It's quite possible those two teams had some kind of leverage in the discussions, and this is what they were able to get from it. The reason why Treliving would be agreeable is because he still holds most of the cards under this deal. It seems obvious that Missouri and Wichita are firmly in his camp. Since they both own two teams apiece, and Treliving owns another one, they already have a combined 50% stake in decision-making.

If you add in the possibility that Denver, Arizona, and Brampton are likely to go along with that "50% Crowd" that puts RC and Allen in the vast minority. While I don't know every detail of the new league ownership, it's feasible that each partner (i.e. team owner) would have to sell their stake (i.e. franchise) to a buyer deemed suitable by the other remaining partners before leaving the CHL.

This would essentially place the burden of finding new ownership in a new market on the team seeking to leave the CHL. Let's say (hypothetically) the Rush eventually find a prospective buyer in Omaha, Nebraska. They could sell the Rush's CHL license to that group, pending approval by the other 9 voting members, and leave the league free and clear.

With Treliving's camp representing 80% of the voting bloc, he could make sure the Rush were leaving the CHL in a position to continue with viable ownership for all ten teams. Again, this is just guess at how things might work now, but I'm pretty sure Treliving built some fail-safe switch into the whole arrangement. He's not just going to give a lucrative "Get Out of Jail Free" card to Allen or Rapid City.



Cyclones Rock said:


> Why would someone purported to be as wealthy as Treliving is sell off the league-especially to a few organizations (RC and Allen) which are only still in the league due to legal maneuvers-if he were hell bent on its continuation. The sale of the parts couldn't have generated any more than a couple $million or so and Treliving's worth is supposedly in the $ half a billion neighborhood. The sale wouldn't have appeared to have been necessary financially and certainly opened the box, at the least, to the dissolution of the CHL via defection of the four viable franchises to the ECHL.




There's a huge difference between net worth and liquid assets. I'm not sure what ratio of Treliving's wealth falls on the "liquid assets" side of the ledger. Not everyone with substantial wealth on paper is necessarily able to direct that wealth into other ventures at the drop of a hat. Also, nobody knows with any certainty how much personal wealth Treliving would seek to allocate in keeping his league afloat.



Cyclones Rock said:


> I'm not seeing the full picture of Treliving's motivation to sell. The only reasonable explanation to me is that the net worth figure that I found on him is completely bogus and he's not worth huge money. Help me see it if you can.




I really doubt Treliving's wealth is grossly exaggerated. But again, he might not be in a position to quickly free up large amounts of that wealth to direct elsewhere in his business portfolio. It's impossible to know what is in his private bank account, and what impulses are active in his thoughts.

Bottom Line: He seems committed to keeping the CHL afloat as long as possible, is in a financial position to have a fighting chance, and knows how to play his cards to maximum benefit. That's why I'm still unconvinced this will be the last season for CHL hockey.


----------



## mk80

I think the leverage in any attempt by Allen and RC to leave again lies with Missouri and Witchita. If those groups decide to make a bid to the ECHL then the league might see itself dissolved. And I'm sure the Mavericks and Thunder owners will grow tired of throwing money down the drain keeping the Chill and Oilers afloat. 

I believe the minimum team requirement is 10 since the CHL has desperately tried to keep from falling below that number.


----------



## intangible

As expected, ticket prices drop. Just released:



> TICKETS START AT $5!!!
> The team is unveiling a new pricing structure in which tickets start as low as five dollars. All upper level seating (Bronze level) for the remainder of the season will be general admission and only five dollars per ticket. (seating chart)
> The Chill has also simplified their pricing structure in the lower bowl to two price levels. The first seven rows including glass seats and the center ice sections (Diamond level) are just $20 per ticket and rows eight and above (Platinum level) are $15.
> Group tickets with 12 or more people in the Lower level start as low as $10. To order group tickets or for questions call the Chill front office at (636) 724-SHOT (7468).




Much better, but is the damage already done?


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## mk80

This certainly can't hurt their chances (other than bringing in less money off of admission), but we are not going to see a huge flood of people pouring into the Family Arena just because of this. But I'm sure a few extra people will make it out now that the prices are lowered.


----------



## mfrerkes

intangible said:


> As expected, ticket prices drop. Just released:
> Much better, but is the damage already done?




Ironically, this could increase attendance but damage their finances even more. With such a huge price drop, they now have to sell a massive number of tickets just to get the same level of income they were receiving in the previous weeks...

If you sell 500 "A" tickets at $20 apiece and 500 "B" tickets at $15 apiece, your gross income is $17,500. If you sell 800 "A" tickets at $12 apiece and 800 "B" tickets at $9 apiece, your gross income is $16,800.

So, while your ticket sales increased by 60%, your gross income decreased by $700 -- 4% lower than when you had less people buying higher-priced tickets. This is the peril for the Chill. If they don't attract significantly more fans with this move, it could actually make a bad situation worse.

As far as I know, the Chill don't get concession or parking revenue from Family Arena. Their ability to make up any revenue deficits from ticket sales are limited almost entirely to team merchandise.


----------



## intangible

Interesting. Though I do wonder if there's some recourse for them to be able to get a percentage of concessions. By decreasing ticket sales they might be taking a loss on the revenue, hurting their own sales but increasing concessions sales.

Now, if they DO have a deal where they have to pay for empty seats, then that could affect their cost per game. If they've increased ticket sales 60% but decreased their empty seat cost by 60%, the net revenue might be higher than otherwise.


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## mk80

While I doubt this will be enough to save the franchise, I will say we have to give the organization for listening to the fans who have been asking for the tickets and concessions lowered. They lowered what they could having no control over tickets but I like that they are trying to respond to their fans/ complaints.


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## mfrerkes

intangible said:


> Interesting. Though I do wonder if there's some recourse for them to be able to get a percentage of concessions. By decreasing ticket sales they might be taking a loss on the revenue, hurting their own sales but increasing concessions sales.
> 
> Now, if they DO have a deal where they have to pay for empty seats, then that could affect their cost per game. If they've increased ticket sales 60% but decreased their empty seat cost by 60%, the net revenue might be higher than otherwise.




I don't know what the lease deal stipulates about empty seats. Somebody on another forum said the Otters paid roughly 50 cents for every empty seat. Even if the Chill increased attendance by 1000 fans per game (not likely, IMO) they'd only erase $500 per game off their lease obligations. That's not a significant decrease, especially if they're losing that much, or more, on reduced income from selling cheaper tickets.

As far as concessions go, I doubt the Chill get to touch any portion of that. The arena uses that money -- and parking fees -- to supplement their own revenue streams. It seems the Chill will need a massive uptick in attendance to make their ticket sales financially worthwhile. I don't think they're going to accomplish that during this time of the hockey season. November-December has historically been the low point for attendance.


----------



## JungleJON

Well lowering your prices not even into the first month of the season says a lot. Don't think that the Missouri owners thought that it was going to be as bad as it is. How long does anyone think they can keep this going? They must make some money on the Mavericks, but seem to be throwing it away on the Chill. Stupid business move.


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## mfrerkes

SenorChifles said:


> Well lowering your prices not even into the first month of the season says a lot. Don't think that the Missouri owners thought that it was going to be as bad as it is. How long does anyone think they can keep this going? They must make some money on the Mavericks, but seem to be throwing it away on the Chill. Stupid business move.




That's why I think the Chill should make it through the entire season without folding. However, I'm not very optimistic Missouri would choose to bring them back next fall. Like you said, Saint Charles has to be a considerable drag on their overall financial situation.

Brampton and Denver are question marks as well. The Cutthroats allegedly have somebody with deep pockets running the team, but I question why anybody would choose to waste big bucks in a market where the NHL will always be front and center. Brampton has a better chance of making a return appearance in 2014-15, but I wouldn't bet too heavily on that either.


----------



## JeffNYI

I don't think the Mavericks *intended* on owning and operating the Chill.

I think they were basically forced into the situation for the good of the league.


----------



## mfrerkes

JeffNYI said:


> I don't think the Mavericks *intended* on owning and operating the Chill.
> 
> I think they were basically forced into the situation for the good of the league.




When Hart couldn't find an owner for the Laredo Bucks' franchise (which is what the Chill is) I'm pretty sure the league told Missouri they'd need to step in and make this happen. Like you say, it was a reluctant but necessary decision to keep the CHL going another season.

I don't think this new pricing scheme is going to change the economics very much. The Chill are going to lose big bucks, and I have to wonder if this will be an epiphany for the Mavericks' prerogative to remain in the CHL much longer.


----------



## jayme2017

mfrerkes said:


> That's why I think the Chill should make it through the entire season without folding. However, I'm not very optimistic Missouri would choose to bring them back next fall. Like you said, Saint Charles has to be a considerable drag on their overall financial situation.
> 
> Brampton and Denver are question marks as well. The Cutthroats allegedly have somebody with deep pockets running the team, but I question why anybody would choose to waste big bucks in a market where the NHL will always be front and center. Brampton has a better chance of making a return appearance in 2014-15, but I wouldn't bet too heavily on that either.




The city of Brampton needs this team to work and last if the team moves or folds that could be the end of the rink.


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## CrazyEddie20

jayme2017 said:


> The city of Brampton needs this team to work...




Too late for that!


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## jayme2017

CrazyEddie20 said:


> Too late for that!




Well they are about to lose there lacrosse team and if the Chl team is gone then the arena would be torn down more then likely.


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## intangible

So the Chill waived two of their top scorers, both of whom were tied for first in goals and one of whom was a St. Louis native.

http://stcharleschill.com/news/index.html?article_id=51

This management gets weirder and weirder by the day. If they were seriously trying to turn things around, they'd get rid of Brown and Barr, both of whom are pylons out there who constantly get beaten on 1-on-1s and also take the most penalties on the team. Must be more to the story.


----------



## jabberoski

intangible said:


> So the Chill waived two of their top scorers, both of whom were tied for first in goals and one of whom was a St. Louis native.
> 
> http://stcharleschill.com/news/index.html?article_id=51
> 
> This management gets weirder and weirder by the day. If they were seriously trying to turn things around, they'd get rid of Brown and Barr, both of whom are pylons out there who constantly get beaten on 1-on-1s and also take the most penalties on the team. Must be more to the story.




If I were a betting man, I would say it would come down to $$$$. Costello and Kraemer most likely were, if not the two highest paid players on the team, in the top 3-5.


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## CrazyEddie20

jabberoski said:


> If I were a betting man, I would say it would come down to $$$$. Costello and Kraemer most likely were, if not the two highest paid players on the team, in the top 3-5.




This is a salary dump - $750 a week is too much to pay any player when your team can't draw 750 people to a home game. They can bring in two plugs from the SPHL for half that weekly salary and maybe afford to keep the lights on in the office a little longer.

As far as getting rid of bad players, bad players don't cost money, and winning doesn't necessarily equate to ticket sales in the minor leagues.

Where are all the "CHL hockey will work in St. Charles!!" apologists now?


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## intangible

Makes sense. And the guy they recently signed, Phil Bushbacher, would come cheap as a rookie. He was pretty good at tryouts, too.

Was looking at the roster, and for some reason there's a third goalie listed now: Linus Lundin. http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=19827 Never heard of him.. wonder if he's coming in as Moss' replacement, if Moss costs too much. Can't imagine Corbeil costs anything to the Chill considering he's on loan from the AHL.


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## CrazyEddie20

intangible said:


> Makes sense. And the guy they recently signed, Phil Bushbacher, would come cheap as a rookie. He was pretty good at tryouts, too.
> 
> Was looking at the roster, and for some reason there's a third goalie listed now: Linus Lundin. http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=19827 Never heard of him.. wonder if he's coming in as Moss' replacement, if Moss costs too much. Can't imagine Corbeil costs anything to the Chill considering he's on loan from the AHL.




The CHL club has to pay the amount that Corbeil's salary counts against the cap, so he does cost something - more than a kid from Sweden who played Tier III Jr. 'A' last year and desperately wants to play pro in North America.


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## jabberoski

CrazyEddie20 said:


> The CHL club has to pay the amount that Corbeil's salary counts against the cap, so he does cost something - more than a kid from Sweden who played Tier III Jr. 'A' last year and desperately wants to play pro in North America.




And the first time that payment doesn't get paid to the AHL team, you can bet your life that Corbeil will be reassigned elsewhere.


----------



## intangible

jabberoski said:


> And the first time that payment doesn't get paid to the AHL team, you can bet your life that Corbeil will be reassigned elsewhere.




Given his stats and the fact that he's being outplayed by a guy who on paper should be several levels below him, maybe that time is coming sooner rather than later.


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## intangible

http://moundcitysports.com/2013-11-15-chill-waive-two/

So there was more to the story, and supposedly it wasn't money. Rivers really throws two of his former top players under the bus in the article.. I don't like that at all. Makes you wonder what the locker room is like.

Also an interesting note: Lundin backed up Moss. Makes you wonder what happened to Corbeil.. is he gone, too, or will be shortly? Still listed on the roster, though.


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## mk80

I can't imagine the culture in the lockeroom is overly friendly. The team is last place in the league, and have had some major blowouts against them. Obviously they ain't getting help from fan support as those numbers are low. 

Honestly don't blame Kraemer for wanting to leave, he has a better shot in the ECHL anyway. My thinking on Corbeil is he is being shipped off soon for either the same reason as Kraemer and Costello, or just to cut costs. Corbeil may end up back with the Mavericks where he played last year.


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## Ritchey27

Chad Costello believes himself to be better than the CHL. Which is why he refused to report to Arizona and was suspended. 

Kraemer situation is different. He's been under a lot of pressure playing for his hometown. Some players handle it well, others don't. 

Yes, both players were leading the team in points, but scoring a goal while down 6-1 isn't exactly a big deal. 

Funny how the Chi waive their top players, then draw the two good size crowds. 1,600 and 1,800 respectively. It's a first year team and it's going take time for this team to grow. 

The locker room seems to be better without Costello and Kraemer was a toss up. The team is blocking more shots and defense is night and day since the start of the season. 

Corbeil is injured, Lundin was supposed to be here from the start of the year, but had immigration issues. Moss has solidified himself as the starter. Gives his team the best chance to win. It'll be between Lundin and Corbiel on who keeps that roster spot, however, Corbeil has been atrocious. 

The effort is there and they should gotten wins these say two games but Engelage was stellar in game one this weekend and he got a lot of help from the officials in last nights game. 

MOD


----------



## mk80

Waiving those players is probably not what caused "good" sized crowds. I would bet it is more likely to be the new lower ticket prices. Whatever the cause both of those crowd sizes are still well below what I would call good. The Otters last season averaged right around 2,500 give or take (which by the way isn't too good of a crowd either). So the if a team drawing crowds about twice the size of the Chill crowds couldn't make it, how long do the Chill have?

While those players being gone may have the lockerroom culture they are still last place. Having been on both good and bad teams myself in the past I can tell you a team with a record much like the Chill's combined with some of their past blowouts there is still a bad taste right now.

That being said, hopefully they will turn things around both on and off the ice. But the on ice fixes will come first.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

Randall Ritchey said:


> Chad Costello believes himself to be better than the CHL. Which is why he refused to report to Arizona and was suspended.
> 
> Kraemer situation is different. He's been under a lot of pressure playing for his hometown. Some players handle it well, others don't.
> 
> Yes, both players were leading the team in points, but scoring a goal while down 6-1 isn't exactly a big deal.
> 
> Funny how the Chi waive their top players, then draw the two good size crowds. 1,600 and 1,800 respectively. It's a first year team and it's going take time for this team to grow.
> 
> The locker room seems to be better without Costello and Kraemer was a toss up. The team is blocking more shots and defense is night and day since the start of the season.
> 
> Corbeil is injured, Lundin was supposed to be here from the start of the year, but had immigration issues. Moss has solidified himself as the starter. Gives his team the best chance to win. It'll be between Lundin and Corbiel on who keeps that roster spot, however, Corbeil has been atrocious.
> 
> The effort is there and they should gotten wins these say two games but Engelage was stellar in game one this weekend and he got a lot of help from the officials in last nights game.
> 
> MOD




Since you cover the team, I'm guessing you have a couple of quotes to back up what you're saying about Costello and Kraemer, right?

1,600 and 1,800 are not "good sized crowds."

MOD


----------



## Ritchey27

Compared to the start of the season, yes it's a good size crowd. Did you expect sellouts right off the bat?

It's not going to happen that way. The team needs to build their resources. The affiliation with the Blues is only going to help. 

The team is doing a ton of work in the community and that will help build the fan base. 

I'll post quotes a little later tonight after the Blues game. But on ice, there has been a difference. The effort has been outstanding the last two games. The defense is night and day from the beginning of the year. Shockingly enough, these things take time.


----------



## mfrerkes

Randall Ritchey said:


> Funny how the Chi waive their top players, then draw the two good size crowds. 1,600 and 1,800 respectively. It's a first year team and it's going take time for this team to grow.




When were these two good-sized crowds?

As for being a "first-year" team, in the world of sports entertainment you have to be awfully concerned about first impressions. I doubt many observers are getting a positive first impression based on what has transpired thus far. Some operations don't have an abundance of time to get their act together, and it seems the Chill have unfortunately stumbled into that category.


----------



## mfrerkes

LippinOff said:


> I can't think of a universe in pro hockey where 1,800 is good. But I can see that going from 700 to 1,800 is a sign of at least moving in the right direction. I say you take angle and you'll see much less abrasive responses.




Do you honestly believe the Chill's attendance increase was due to the recent roster moves? It's one thing to claim 1,800 is a good-sized crowd. That's all a matter of opinion, as quaint as that opinion might be. However, making an intellectually dishonest statement (i.e. crediting a highly questionable roster move as the primary reason for a modest attendance increase) is something that doesn't pass the laugh test.

I don't think even Randall believes that some roster moves played any significant role in the Chill's so-called "good size crowd" over the weekend. It seems that Randall is using a rather weak premise to justify an even weaker claim.


----------



## mk80

Like I said I suspect the reason for the attendance increase is the lower ticket prices.

It is nice to see the rise in attendance, and hopefully it keeps rising, but 1,800 is not good better yes but not good. If the team can get a few wins and climb out of last place that could help draw some more of a crowd. With the Blues doing so well this season I'm sure a winning team will help the Chill a bit more. I'm not saying a winning record is going to bring in thousands of fans, but it will certainly help as people I'm sure want to see a winning team.


----------



## Ritchey27

Compared to the 700 in attendance earlier this season, 1,800 is good. Over a 1,000 people more is good. 
No, it's not a result of moving players, but with moving the players, the effort on the ice has improved drastically and that will continue to improve. 

Good grief people, look at any expansion team and you'll see that there are always early struggles. The Chill have defined their team with these moves. Hard working, blue collar. A team that gives up their bodies relentlessly and who throw pucks on the net and crash the net is a team that is going to have success. 

I swear the negativity most of you have is you flat out just WANT this team to fail. 

Also, I was asked for a quote that Rivers talked about the waiving of Costello/Kraemer and how it affect the team. Here are two. 

"Our locker room is much healthier. Quite honestly, we've gotten a better effort. We werent getting any power-play contribution from those guys anyway. For every shift out there, guys are working hard and working for each other. I'm fine with where were at now and I think the locker room is really good." 

In regards to moving the top two point leaders. 
"Lets make a couple things clear here. We lost two of our top three scorers, but they weren't scoring at all on the power play and quite honestly they did nothing for us as far as game winning goals. When we're losing 6 to 1 and a score it's irrelevant. Bottom line."


----------



## mfrerkes

Randall Ritchey said:


> I swear the negativity most of you have is you flat out just WANT this team to fail.




Once again, you're making an intellectually dishonest argument not based in any fact to advance your claims. Nobody here has a stated desire to see the Chill fail. Numerous people here (including myself) wonder how a team that was, until recently, charging outrageous ticket prices for a losing AA product in an NHL market could make it work. Asking questions about an organization that seems to have a poorly planned and executed business strategy is not the same as actively rooting for failure. You seem to be bothered by anyone who asks legitimate questions about this team's approach to selling minor league hockey in a very competitive sports market.

You are also making claims that simply invite ridicule. There's no credible league at this level of the sport where 1800 would be considered a good sized crowd. You also keep claiming that every new franchise has life-or-death struggles with winning and attendance. The Allen Americans didn't have many problems their first year in the CHL. Attendance was decent and the team made it all the way to the finals. That's probably because the organization had a good plan for winning games and attracting fans in a tough market where the Dallas Stars already existed.

If the Chill had anything resembling a cogent strategy right now, you might find a more sympathetic ear on this forum. Unfortunately, the Chill was thrown together in a rather hasty fashion over the summer and continues to suffer from leadership that is reactive rather than proactive. Pointing this out is not rooting for failure. It is identifying the root cause for a problem you don't even believe exists.


----------



## Avsrule2022

I'm just wondering why, if Costello was such a cancer in the locker room and on the ice, he fit in so well in Colorado? If he had issues there, Stewart would have let him go in a heartbeat. Sounds more to me like and issue between him and the coach.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Everybody take a step back and breath. Make your points without attacking others or making accusations about other posters. Neither will be tolerated and will result in additional infractions or thread bans if they continue.

Talk about the issues at hand, please.

To get on topic, nice to see an increase in attendance for the team after their obvious botched start with high ticket prices given the level of play. Hope the improvement continues.

To reach administration, email: complaints@hfboards.com


----------



## mk80

I'm not saying I want the Chill to fail, quite the opposite in fact I want them to succeed especially now that they are more affordable for my budget. 

Fact is though their long-term survival is highly unlikely with 1800 attendance. Expansion teams do face the adversity to create a good following in their first year. But a lot of expansion that survive long term also have good attendance off the bat... look at recent expansion teams in the past few years. Missouri, Allen in the CHL. Look at recent expansion in the ECHL Orlando, San Francisco. All four teams had and continue to have great attendance.

Unfortunately with the Chill I see the future similar to the Chicago Express franchise in the ECHL who lasted a season. Here is a quote about their attendance:

"On April 6, 2012, it was announced that the Chicago Express would cease operations due to poor attendance numbers and lack of support. The Express finished last in the league for average attendance with 2,508. On some nights, the Express, which also had AHL and NHL competition in the same market, was struggling to get 1,000 at its games."

Now I know the AHL is no where near the Chill, but some things in that quote stick out for me including, not being able to get at least 1,000 at some games (which the Chill have had), NHL Competition (which the Chill have), also the River Otters franchise had an average attendance similar to the Express' in their last year and the Chill are not close to drawing anywhere near the Otters' numbers.


----------



## Ritchey27

Costello wanted out and was bringing the room down. If it was an issue between player and coach, why didn't he report to Arizona?


----------



## mfrerkes

mk80 said:


> Now I know the AHL is no where near the Chill, but some things in that quote stick out for me including, not being able to get at least 1,000 at some games (which the Chill have had), NHL Competition (which the Chill have), also the River Otters franchise had an average attendance similar to the Express' in their last year and the Chill are not close to drawing anywhere near the Otters' numbers.




Even worse for the Chill is the fact they are owned by another team already in the CHL. It seems Missouri was pressured into running Glen Hart's Laredo franchise this past summer. Now that the Mavericks are having their own bottom line ruined by an ill-fated team in Saint Louis, I doubt the long-term commitment to this project will be anywhere near the level it was with the River Otters.

My guess is Missouri will be looking for an out: Perhaps by finding local buyers in Saint Louis (doubt there would be many now) or perhaps by just folding the franchise quietly in the off-season. There's no way Missouri would sign up for another year of this abuse under normal circumstances. If the Chill had been owned by some in-town millionaire with ties to the area, the Chill might be able to eek out another year.

While Missouri themselves might be able to afford another year of funding this charade, you'd really have to question their motives and/or willingness to do so.


----------



## Avsrule2022

Randall Ritchey said:


> Costello wanted out and was bringing the room down. If it was an issue between player and coach, why didn't he report to Arizona?



Ok, that makes sense. He probably shouldn't have signed there in the first place.


----------



## mk80

mfrerkes said:


> Even worse for the Chill is the fact they are owned by another team already in the CHL. It seems Missouri was pressured into running Glen Hart's Laredo franchise this past summer. Now that the Mavericks are having their own bottom line ruined by an ill-fated team in Saint Louis, I doubt the long-term commitment to this project will be anywhere near the level it was with the River Otters.
> 
> My guess is Missouri will be looking for an out: Perhaps by finding local buyers in Saint Louis (doubt there would be many now) or perhaps by just folding the franchise quietly in the off-season. There's no way Missouri would sign up for another year of this abuse under normal circumstances. If the Chill had been owned by some in-town millionaire with ties to the area, the Chill might be able to eek out another year.
> 
> While Missouri themselves might be able to afford another year of funding this charade, you'd really have to question their motives and/or willingness to do so.




Yes that factor is also there but I was more of just pointing out the signs of trouble I see in the Chill related to that quote about the Chicago Express. But no doubt the Mavericks are wanting to get the Chill off their backs quickly. Even though I live in St. Charles I have made my way over to KC the past couple years to catch some Mavericks games, even have a jersey I got at their team store lol. Which is why I hope being forced to run the Chill they will join the Americans and Rush in wanting to get out of the CHL and into the ECHL.


----------



## Ritchey27

Avsrule2002 said:


> Ok, that makes sense. He probably shouldn't have signed there in the first place.




I agree 100%. I honestly think he thought it would be a cake walk and just dominate. Then he was asked to play a two way game. He didn't like that and he wanted out. Rivers is implementing a system which requires everyone of the players to play hard in all three zones. It's going to take time to adjust but the team will get it. 

I agree that Missouri will want to get out from owning St. Charles, and I agree they will. If the Chill can find ownership in St. Charles, and find a owner to give them a couple of seasons to grow, it could really solidify itself in St. Charles. Only time will tell.


----------



## JungleJON

There was a team in this market before and it slowly went by the wayside in a few years - but attendance was a lot higher to start off year one.
Now you would have thought that people would have done some research before putting the team in St. Charles to see #1) would people support the team #2) do people really care if a hockey team comes to the area #3) what price would they pay for a game #4) support from local business, etc., etc., etc.
So they dropped the price of their tickets. Like someone posted here before - they would need a heck of an increase to make more $$$$.

This ship was named the Titanic from day one and the ship has sailed. Now only to wait to hear the siren when the ship starts to sink.


----------



## mk80

"Market research? What's that?" Would be the response from anyone in the CHL. Logical ideas are unfortunately left out when the CHL adds an expansion franchise.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

1,173 in St. Chucky last night - looks like the Chill remain a hot draw at the box office.


----------



## mfrerkes

CrazyEddie20 said:


> 1,173 in St. Chucky last night - looks like the Chill remain a hot draw at the box office.




Considering it was a Wednesday, that actually exceeded my very low expectations for this team. I guess the fact they hit four digits during a mid-week game is cause for celebration. 

There's a St. Charles fan on another forum who mentioned that, last night, their front office seemed less enthusiastic about greeting fans (a practice they had embraced earlier this season) and could sense a change in mood. I honestly don't know what the Chill were expecting with their recent moves. Dropping ticket prices -- even by a huge amount -- will have limited effect in drawing new fans. Getting rid of the team's offense was also a dumb move. Hometown fans typically like to see goals being scored.

I'm standing by my prediction that this team makes it to the end of the season. Missouri wouldn't dare embarrass the CHL by folding this team mid-season, but I also doubt the Mavs will opt to bring them back for 2014-15. Whatever Missouri is making in Independence is probably being flushed down the toilet in Saint Charles.


----------



## jabberoski

jabberoski said:


> And the first time that payment doesn't get paid to the AHL team, you can bet your life that Corbeil will be reassigned elsewhere.




And, there it is. Corbeil reassigned to Wheeling in the ECHL - http://www.echl.com/utica-assigns-goaltender-corbeil-to-nailers-p188673


----------



## mk80

Well attendance on Wednesday could have been lifted by their Facebook status that day around lunch. 



> "Tonight and every Wednesday the rest of the season we'll have "College Night". Beers for the number of goals in a hat-trick!!! Have we mention tickets for just FIVE BUCKS!? #FeelTheChill"





Also what a surprise Corbeil was moved, as Lundin made his first pro start against the Beast the other night. Hopefully Corbeil will do well with Wheeling, he will get better development for one thing than he was getting with the Chill. I do agree with mferkes, fans do like to see a team win a game once in awhile. These 1 goal games are an improvement over the blowouts early in the season but not enough. It could be 1 of two things either A.) Rivers isn't the best coach or B.) Rivers doesn't have much to work with. I choose to believe the latter in that a good coach gets stuck with a bad team sometimes. Even though this is Rivers' first coaching position he has run offseason workouts for the Blues and helped out in their training camp last year.


----------



## intangible

Meanwhile, the Ambush had over 7,000 fans in the stands for its home opener. Ambush really did it right by going out and proactively finding youth organization to partner with. I didn't see the Chill going out to any number of the local youth organizations to try to sell tickets or get publicity.


----------



## Ritchey27

Huge weekend for the Chill. Gut wrenching loss Friday but they rebounded big time with a big win tonight.


----------



## mk80

intangible said:


> Meanwhile, the Ambush had over 7,000 fans in the stands for its home opener. Ambush really did it right by going out and proactively finding youth organization to partner with. I didn't see the Chill going out to any number of the local youth organizations to try to sell tickets or get publicity.




They also had Lindenwood night, the Lindenwood Cheerleading and Lion Line Dance Teams performed and LU students could get $5 tickets.


----------



## intangible

mk80 said:


> They also had Lindenwood night, the Lindenwood Cheerleading and Lion Line Dance Teams performed and LU students could get $5 tickets.




All great ideas that the Chill should've considered.

I just round it really striking that while I continually saw the Ambush publicizing agreements or partnerships with the many youth soccer clubs in the area, the Chill had nothing. Picture of them standing outside of St. Charles Community College. Yay. But nothing about the many youth hockey organizations, be it St. Peters, Kirkwood, Affton, Webster, etc. Nothing at all. Could've been a huge opportunity for them.


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## CrazyEddie20

Randall Ritchey said:


> Huge weekend for the Chill. Gut wrenching loss Friday but they rebounded big time with a big win tonight.




To look at things objectively, as a journalist should:

They're tied for last place with Wichita. They have eight points to show for the season to this point. 

Most importantly, both games they played were on the road, which means that the team that drawing 1,730/game brought in $0.00 in revenue while incurring further expenses.

As was previously shown, the cut in ticket prices requires sizable gains in attendance to offset the loss in revenue. We haven't seen those gains yet.

This is just another example of a poorly-capitalized, poorly-planned minor league franchise.


----------



## mfrerkes

Randall Ritchey said:


> Huge weekend for the Chill. Gut wrenching loss Friday but they rebounded big time with a big win tonight.




Is going .500 over two games really a "huge weekend" for any team? Especially at this point in the season? A sweep in Missouri....yeah, that would be a "huge weekend" I suppose.

Certain words carry a certain value. The word "huge" is typically reserved for something momentous.


----------



## mk80

CrazyEddie20 said:


> To look at things *objectively*, as a journalist should:
> 
> They're tied for last place with Wichita. They have eight points to show for the season to this point.
> 
> Most importantly, both games they played were on the road, which means that the team that drawing 1,730/game brought in $0.00 in revenue while incurring further expenses.
> 
> As was previously shown, the cut in ticket prices requires sizable gains in attendance to offset the loss in revenue. We haven't seen those gains yet.
> 
> This is just another example of a poorly-capitalized, poorly-planned minor league franchise.




Exactly the games were on the road, so the Chill have no revenue brought in for the weekend. 

Also huge is not the right word to describe the weekend for them, the right word is they *split* their series with the Mavericks. Nice to hear they got a win for once, but the reality is they are tied for last place with 8 points, and 2nd to last in attendance. Hopefully the Ambush teach them a lesson on how to set up a franchise successfully.


----------



## mfrerkes

mk80 said:


> Nice to hear they got a win for once, but the reality is they are tied for last place with 8 points, and 2nd to last in attendance. Hopefully the Ambush teach them a lesson on how to set up a franchise successfully.




You can't un-break an egg. The Chill had their one and only shot at making a positive first impression this fall. Needless to say, they missed the mark by quite a bit. I don't see the Chill recovering from such a horrific stumble by merely copying some other franchise's front office playbook.


----------



## JeffNYI

mk80 said:


> Hopefully the Ambush teach them a lesson on how to set up a franchise successfully.




The Ambush tapped in to a pre-existing (though dormant) market that was abnormally interested in indoor soccer..


----------



## intangible

Not so sure.. could just be the extra marketing they did with Lindenwood. I'm very interested to see, though, as indoor soccer in the area has, at least in my opinion, dwindled quite a bit. I used to play, myself, but it seems more of these facilities are now doing extra things like indoor softball. Reminds me of inline hockey in the area.. it used to be huge, but because of lack of demand the largest inline hockey rink converted one rink to indoor soccer, and this was AFTER they shut down the mini rink in the middle of the facility (which began as youth hockey, turned into volleyball, then dodgeball, and I'm not sure it's even there anymore).


----------



## mk80

mfrerkes said:


> You can't un-break an egg. The Chill had their one and only shot at making a positive first impression this fall. Needless to say, they missed the mark by quite a bit. I don't see the Chill recovering from such a horrific stumble by merely copying some other franchise's front office playbook.




Yes I agree. What meant by my statement about the Ambush is that they will hopefully make the Chill see the error of their ways. I agree the Chill will not be to recover from their horrible start, and the saying "You only get one first impression." applies really well here.


----------



## Ritchey27

Tony DeHart is headed back to the ECHL, likely back to Stockton.


----------



## jabberoski

Randall Ritchey said:


> Tony DeHart is headed back to the ECHL, likely back to Stockton.




Well, there's no link so this is obviously a rumor, but if he is indeed going to the ECHL, it will be to Florida, as Stockton traded him there in September.

http://floridaeverblades.com/blades-acquire-defensemen-mike-little-contract-rights-tony-dehart/


----------



## Ritchey27

jabberoski said:


> Well, there's no link so this is obviously a rumor, but if he is indeed going to the ECHL, it will be to Florida, as Stockton traded him there in September.
> 
> http://floridaeverblades.com/blades-acquire-defensemen-mike-little-contract-rights-tony-dehart/




It's no rumor, I've confirmed it with a Rivers.


----------



## Ritchey27

jabberoski said:


> Well, there's no link so this is obviously a rumor, but if he is indeed going to the ECHL, it will be to Florida, as Stockton traded him there in September.
> 
> http://floridaeverblades.com/blades-acquire-defensemen-mike-little-contract-rights-tony-dehart/




It's no rumor, I've confirmed it with a Rivers.


----------



## mk80

WOW!!! WHAT A SURPRISE THIS IS!

not... I expected he would leave this failing franchise for better waters in the ECHL. All the ECHL guys have bailed, they are better off there anyway.


----------



## intangible

How long before Rivers gets canned? Rivers was supposed to be someone to put butts in the seats since he was a Bluenote, but with the franchise not doing great and attendance still hovering around 2,000 with $5 tickets, I can't imagine his salary isn't on the chopping block if this continues.


----------



## mfrerkes

intangible said:


> How long before Rivers gets canned? Rivers was supposed to be someone to put butts in the seats since he was a Bluenote, but with the franchise not doing great and attendance still hovering around 2,000 with $5 tickets, I can't imagine his salary isn't on the chopping block if this continues.




It doesn't matter what the Chill do at this point. The whole production has been a disaster from the word "Go" and there's no turning this ship around. Putting a new captain behind the wheel of the Titanic after it already struck the iceberg is pointless.


----------



## intangible

Oh, I'm not talking about trying to right the ship.. I'm talking about reducing cost. You have to figure Rivers is the team's biggest personnel expense. The way they're going -- just lost again tonight -- they would do just as well under the Assistant Coach as they have with an ex-NHLer. Or maybe it's the Assistant Coach who gets the ax next to save cost. Just can't imagine they can keep it running with just over 2,000 people and likely the majority of them being for $5.


----------



## JeffNYI

intangible said:


> Oh, I'm not talking about trying to right the ship.. I'm talking about reducing cost. You have to figure Rivers is the team's biggest personnel expense. The way they're going -- just lost again tonight -- they would do just as well under the Assistant Coach as they have with an ex-NHLer. Or maybe it's the Assistant Coach who gets the ax next to save cost. Just can't imagine they can keep it running with just over 2,000 people and likely the majority of them being for $5.




I mean.. I'm just guessing here.. but given everything that went on and all the pre-launch uncertainty surrounding the Chill, there's got to be NO WAY that Rivers agreed to coach the team without signing a fully guaranteed contract for the season..

Presumably, he's also smart enough that the contract would be enforceable against the Mavericks as well as the Chill.

So I think firing their coach would actually cost them money.

I cannot envision a scenario whereby Rivers agreed to coach without guaranteed salary for the entire season..


----------



## mk80

Well I know during the Chill's period of inactivity this past summer Rivers looked for and almost excepted a head coaching position in England. I don't think the losing record is entirely Rivers' fault, I think he is doing the best with what they have given and it is a situation of a good coach gets stuck with a bad team. I would love to see him take a job elsewhere to build a better coaching resume. If I were him I'd be knocking on the doors of the Pepsi Coliseum in Indy to try and get hired on as an assistant coach there next season.


----------



## nottchi

I'm not sure how true the head coach in England rumor was. It was talked about for a while but most of us came to the conclusion it was a wind-up. 
Rivers is friends with Fox who was captain for my team over here last season, now Fox is playing there along with other players that have played here... maybe he was just scouting for cheap players.

On a side note, how is Andrew Conboy doing? He definitely made an impact the short time he was over here!?!


----------



## mk80

It was more than rumor, I remember reading a tweet back in the spring by Rivers saying something like "My family and I have talked and have decided England is not the right place for me right now..." and thanking the team for the offer.


----------



## intangible

JeffNYI said:


> I mean.. I'm just guessing here.. but given everything that went on and all the pre-launch uncertainty surrounding the Chill, there's got to be NO WAY that Rivers agreed to coach the team without signing a fully guaranteed contract for the season..




Eh, perhaps, though there are always "ways" to get out of those contracts.

BTW, only 3,500 in attendance for "Pink the Rink" night, which seemed to be about a month late, but they really marketed the hell out of it online, even going so far as to have a live band afterward, jersey auction, raffle, and gave away tickets around town again.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

Randall Ritchey said:


> They have Mathieu Corbeil who was assigned to the club after being sent down by the Canucks.
> Chad Costello, former ECHL MVP has signed with the club.
> They have a young kid in Max Mobley who could take this league by storm. He's fast, skilled offensively and not inept defensively.
> Jordan Fox as joined the team after playing in the UK.
> Steve Makway has joined the team as well.
> 
> They have offensive depth, good two way players and a strong defense. With Corbeil in net, they could end up being a team to be reckoned with. It was just a pre-season game last night but they dominated the Mavericks last night shutting them out 2-0 with the use of all three goalies.




So now, let's recap this preview:

Costello - cut while leading the team in scoring.
Mobley - cut after five games with zero points and a -6 rating. Clearly, he wasn't skilled offensively and pretty inept defensively.
Fox - 6g, 10a, -8
Makway - 6g, 4a, -12
Corbeil - reassigned.

The team overall? 3-10-4, 10 points, last place, -21 goal differential.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

Randall Ritchey said:


> The response has been amazing by the fans. The River Otters who used to play there used to have a pretty good following and with the staff there, I could see this team lasting here for a while. Especially with the class of players who are with the team.




You've gotten one thing right - the response by fans has been amazing. It's just been amazing in the wrong way.


----------



## Off da post and in

CrazyEddie20 said:


> So now, let's recap this preview:
> 
> Costello - cut while leading the team in scoring.
> Mobley - cut after five games with zero points and a -6 rating. Clearly, he wasn't skilled offensively and pretty inept defensively.
> Fox - 6g, 10a, -8
> Makway - 6g, 4a, -12
> Corbeil - reassigned.
> 
> The team overall? 3-10-4, 10 points, last place, -21 goal differential.




If you followed the situation in St. Charles more closely you would know that Costello and Kraemer weren't "CUT", they jumped to the Ontario Reign(ECHL) as a package deal. Do you really think the Chill kicked them out and they both just happened to land on the same team?

As for Corbeil, how many goalies would still be on a team with a 5.35 goals against and a .831 save percentage? If you looked at the game reports you would also notice that he was pulled out of 2 games.

The +/- for Makway and Fox are more indicitive of the 2 early season blowouts and defensive problems the Chill had. As of late (2-7-2) their seven losses are all one goal defeats in regulation and two Shootouts. At this time the Chill's biggest problems are dumb penalties and mental errors in the third period.

Your assessment of Mobley is accurate in my opinion, but Randall Ritchey did state in one of his articles that Mobley was going to take the league by storm.


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## mk80

Honestly the Chill are failing in every way possible, attendance, performance, management, marketing, ect. I never like to see teams fail and fold, but I also like to see what's best for hockey in general happen. The beat thing for St Charles hockey is the Family Arena being bought or used by Lindenwood's men's and women's program. The men's program will eventually be NCAA D1 and the biggest setback is the fact they don't play in a D1 quality arena. The Women's program already is D1 in the CHA


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## Off da post and in

mk80 said:


> Honestly the Chill are failing in every way possible, attendance, performance, management, marketing, ect. I never like to see teams fail and fold, but I also like to see what's best for hockey in general happen....




Maybe I've just misunderstood your posts over the last few months pertaining to anything the Chill or the CHL does or doesn't do.You've been critical of everything and seemingly exude a hope that they just fall flat on their faces. Is that what you meant by what you like to see as best for hockey?

Is it possible that your business model is somewhat unrealistic expecting an expansion team to have immediate sellout crowds, a +.550 winning percentage, flawless player signings with no player movement or defections, and a marketing strategy that would marvel the NHL's finest. BTW, the Chill is an expansion team that brought nothing from Laredo (players, coaches, owners, uniforms, name, or equipment) to St. Charles except a CHL franchise license.

Remember this the 'Sports Town' of St.Louis were only the Cardinals can draw. The Blues are one of the best teams in the NHL and are ranked 21st out of 30 in NHL attendance, and the Rams are 31st out of 32 in the NFL. There is a reason that over the years the Hawks (NBA), Browns (MLB),and Cardinals (NFL) have left that area. Geez, even Budweiser sold out to the Euros. 

Time will tell if the Chill folds, or leaves for another town, but as Cyclones Rock stated in the "CHL: The Slow Spin Down the Bowl..." thread there are nearly 10-14 ECHL teams that have major issues. However, those you don't fixate on like you do the Chill and CHL.


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## CrazyEddie20

Off da post and in said:


> As for Corbeil, how many goalies would still be on a team with a 5.35 goals against and a .831 save percentage? If you looked at the game reports you would also notice that he was pulled out of 2 games.
> 
> The +/- for Makway and Fox are more indicitive of the 2 early season blowouts and defensive problems the Chill had. As of late (2-7-2) their seven losses are all one goal defeats in regulation and two Shootouts. At this time the Chill's biggest problems are dumb penalties and mental errors in the third period.
> 
> Your assessment of Mobley is accurate in my opinion, but Randall Ritchey did state in one of his articles that Mobley was going to take the league by storm.




I'd contend that Corbeil is gone because Vancouver didn't want the kid to be ruined by playing on the disaster that Rivers put together in St. Chucky. After all, he seems to be off to a pretty damn good start in Wheeling - but you probably haven't looked at that.

I guess you haven't looked at Makway and Fox's game-by-game stats. You know that you can find that info on Pointstreak, right? If you had looked at that, you'd see that those "early season blowouts" have less to do with Makway and Fox's craptacular ratings than their games "of late" in that 2-7-2 stretch do. Makway is -9 in that span, Fox is -5.

I'm critical of the Chill and the CHL because they do things the wrong way. They threw a team together in a good market, undercapitalized the business and put an incompetent staff and front office in place and expected fans to fall all over themselves because hockey was back. If we want hockey to grow and be successful, this kind of crap MUST STOP. When teams like this come into a market, they poison the well. What's best for hockey is that leagues set up expansion franchises the right way, that the require owners properly capitalize their business, and do the marketing legwork well in advance. 

That's not an unrealistic expectation, since we've seen it done plenty of times. We've also seen things done the wrong way to recognize when it's happening. Let's not forget all the preseason lurching that made a lot of people wonder if the Chill would play at all. It's not an unrealistic expectation to expect that a league would want to set up franchises for success rather than failure. 

Further, winning really doesn't equate to success on the bottom line in the low minors. But player defections are not a good sign. Why do you think the Chill's two top players left? Because Ontario offered them more money? Maybe. Because St. Chucky is a gongshow? More likely.


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## Off da post and in

CrazyEddie20 said:


> I'd contend that Corbeil is gone because Vancouver didn't want the kid to be ruined by playing on the disaster that Rivers put together in St. Chucky. After all, he seems to be off to a pretty damn good start in Wheeling - but you probably haven't looked at that.




Well I'm amused that you aren't aware of the fact that Steve Anthony, #16 on the Chill, IS ALSO A VANCOUVER prospect and they kept him with the Chill. Looks like they aren't worried about him being ruined by Rivers' St. Chucky.

[MOD]

The part about the two players leaving for more $$$, and the Chill being a gongshow. However, even with Costello scoring 9pts. in 6 games he was still (-2), and Kraemer scoring 7pts. in 9 games was still (-4). So are they exonerated, or were they part of the problem???


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## mk80

Off da post and in said:


> Maybe I've just misunderstood your posts over the last few months pertaining to anything the Chill or the CHL does or doesn't do.You've been critical of everything and seemingly exude a hope that they just fall flat on their faces. Is that what you meant by what you like to see as best for hockey?
> 
> Is it possible that your business model is somewhat unrealistic expecting an expansion team to have immediate sellout crowds, a +.550 winning percentage, flawless player signings with no player movement or defections, and a marketing strategy that would marvel the NHL's finest. BTW, the Chill is an expansion team that brought nothing from Laredo (players, coaches, owners, uniforms, name, or equipment) to St. Charles except a CHL franchise license.
> 
> Remember this the 'Sports Town' of St.Louis were only the Cardinals can draw. The Blues are one of the best teams in the NHL and are ranked 21st out of 30 in NHL attendance, and the Rams are 31st out of 32 in the NFL. There is a reason that over the years the Hawks (NBA), Browns (MLB),and Cardinals (NFL) have left that area. Geez, even Budweiser sold out to the Euros.
> 
> Time will tell if the Chill folds, or leaves for another town, but as Cyclones Rock stated in the "CHL: The Slow Spin Down the Bowl..." thread there are nearly 10-14 ECHL teams that have major issues. However, those you don't fixate on like you do the Chill and CHL.




Yes I am critical of the CHL and the Chill. Let me give you my reasons why:

1) The league is on major life support, they have lost a countless number of franchises the past few years and have gained very few. The ones they have gained have been thrown into very poor markets where either there isn't enough demand or hockey hasn't worked before. Look at recent expansion Denver, Brampton, St. Charles. All have poor attendance, all are in markets where there is little to pick off the bone. I realize every league has their ailing teams from the NHL down, but about half the league is not sustainable long term.

2) The Chill were thrown together in a market where baseball is king, you said it yourself the Cardinals are the top draw in town. Also minor league hockey has failed at the Family Arena in the past, sometimes a market can do well on a second run at it but the Chill actually have LESS support than the Otters did in their final year(s).

3) Like I said all leagues have their poor markets. The ECHL is clinging onto Wheeling and others and has a lot of franchises in the Northeast. But fact is I don't focus on pointing that out because overall the league is fairly healthy, and they have had a lot of success with recent expansion. Orlando being one example. Of course they've had a few flops too (i.e. Chicago). But when they expand they try to place franchises that will succeed off the bat, again I point to Orlando and (although they aren't drawing well this year) San Francisco last year.

4) YES the Chill are in fact the transplanted Laredo Bucks franchise. No they did retain any history, players, or anything related to the Bucks. But let me point you to an article when the league first announced they were placing a franchise in town. http://www.stltoday.com/suburban-journals/stcharles/news/st-charles-chill-hopes-to-heat-up-winters/article_6b666fda-2f02-565d-9f0e-38465ca11908.html

Care to read a direct quote from that article?



> Instead of rushing a new team onto the ice for the 2012-13 season, Chill owners Gustavo Hernandez, Alfonso Arguindegui and Glenn Hart wanted to plant their flag in St. Charles a year in advance to reach out to the community. The trio owned the Laredo Bucks, who competed in the CHL until the end of last season. *The Bucks' franchise rights were transferred to the Chill.*




So no they are not actually expansion, the only real expansion franchise this year is Brampton.

Believe what you want sir. Be ignorant for all I care, but the signs of long term success for the Chill and the entire league are just not there! Yes I realize it takes time to build a fan base and no not every new team succeeds on the ice. But usually new teams have a hell of a lot more of a fan base in the beginning than the Chill have now! 

Do I want them to fail? No, I would love nothing more than for them to succeed, and even make a go in the ECHL. Fact is that isn't what will happen most likely. The best thing for the St. Charles hockey community is Lindenwood's hockey program using the arena and moving its men's program to D1.

Like I said believe what you want about all of this. You don't have to agree with anything I've said but you have my reasons.


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## Off da post and in

mk80 said:


> ...... sometimes a market can do well on a second run at it but the Chill actually have LESS support than the Otters did in their final year(s).
> 
> The best thing for the St. Charles hockey community is Lindenwood's hockey program using the arena and moving its men's program to D1.




It is difficult to compare what the Otters did 7 years ago to what the Chill are doing now. The economy was different and the societal landscape was too.

The pursuit of NCAA D1 status for the Men's hockey program at Lindenwood is much more difficult than you believe. What conference will they be a part of , because life as an independent is a nightmare. Ask someone associated with UAH if you don't believe me. Not to break your bubble, but the Lions won't draw enough either. How long have the Billikins played at Chesterfield and other venues without going D1? You need a league and a lot more than hope to be D1 .

Well, at least you made it clear as to why you'd like the Chill to fail, because there is no way a community that size can support both a pro and college team. (see Elmira's numbers for both the ECHL and NCAA D3 teams) I can respect that even though I'm ignorant.


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## CrazyEddie20

Off da post and in said:


> Well I'm amused that you aren't aware of the fact that Steve Anthony, #16 on the Chill, IS ALSO A VANCOUVER prospect and they kept him with the Chill. Looks like they aren't worried about him being ruined by Rivers' St. Chucky.




Vancouver isn't worried about Steven Anthony being ruined - they don't give a rats ass about him. He's a 7th rounder in the third year of his ELC who didn't pan out. He's never played a full season in his pro career. His days as a Vancouver prospect are long behind him. He's a guy that Vancouver has under contract who they have to put somewhere. He's not good enough for the AHL, nor will he ever be. His value to the organization is zero - they would probably go outside the organization to fill a hole in Utica before calling him up. They're just happy to have him taking up space somewhere else until his contract expires.


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## Off da post and in

CrazyEddie20 said:


> Vancouver isn't worried about Steven Anthony being ruined - they don't give a rats ass about him. He's a 7th rounder in the third year of his ELC who didn't pan out. He's never played a full season in his pro career. His days as a Vancouver prospect are long behind him. He's a guy that Vancouver has under contract who they have to put somewhere. He's not good enough for the AHL, nor will he ever be. His value to the organization is zero - they would probably go outside the organization to fill a hole in Utica before calling him up. They're just happy to have him taking up space somewhere else until his contract expires.




Darn, I actually agree with your assessment of the Chill's #16.


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## CrazyEddie20

1,418 last night! 

So what's the excuse this time? Fox Sports Midwest was showing a Cardinals season recap?

{Mod}


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## No Fun Shogun

Topic's become nothing more than a gripe about the league/attendance watch topic, so shutting it down.


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