# ECHL: Wranglersâ€™ arena woes



## CoyoteUgly

Damn, I always made an effort to see a game whenever I went to Vegas

http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/kats-report/2013/dec/31/wranglers-being-jettisoned-orleans-arena-after-sea/


----------------------

_Mod edit (Placed in first post for easier recall)_

http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/kats-report/2014/feb/14/wranglers-search-new-home-vegas-ends-plaza/​


> The Las Vegas Wranglers are heading to the city’s very core, the famous hotel at 1 Main Street.
> 
> Wranglers President Billy Johnson said today that Las Vegas’ entrant in the ECHL has reached an agreement with owners of the Plaza in downtown Las Vegas to play its home games in a leased facility to be built on that property for five years beginning with the 2014-15 season in October.
> 
> The yet-unnamed venue will seat about 3,500 fans, though its final design might change that figure. It will be built on the fifth-level pool and event deck of the resort, on existing space connecting the two hotel towers. Fans would park at the Plaza parking garage or in the hotel’s surface lot, and there is access to that space from both towers.
> 
> Under terms of the new agreement to be reviewed by ECHL officials, the Wranglers would play at the Plaza for five seasons, with an option to extend for another five years. The team’s headquarters will be moved to the property, beginning soon after it ends its 11-year run at the Orleans Arena in April.


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## Mike Jones

This is so weird. Why would the Orleans punt the Wranglers? What are they going to replace them with? 

The only thing I can think of is that the Orleans management no longer want all those free buffets handed out when people buy tickets.


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## adsfan

Will this hurt the chances of LV getting an NHL team some day?


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## Mike Jones

adsfan said:


> Will this hurt the chances of LV getting an NHL team some day?




I don't know but there's no way an NHL team could play at the Orleans anyway. At least not without a major expansion. 

Isn't there a plan in the works for a large arena for Vegas? 

And is there another rink the Wranglers could play in?


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## No Fun Shogun

Shame to hear. Hope something gets worked out.


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## Prussian_Blue

Mike Jones said:


> I don't know but there's no way an NHL team could play at the Orleans anyway. At least not without a major expansion.
> 
> Isn't there a plan in the works for a large arena for Vegas?
> 
> And is there another rink the Wranglers could play in?




This place looks like it could work, if they have ice-making capacity:

http://www.southpointarena.com/arena.php


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## PaulieVegas

Mike Jones said:


> I don't know but there's no way an NHL team could play at the Orleans anyway. At least not without a major expansion.
> 
> Isn't there a plan in the works for a large arena for Vegas?
> 
> And is there another rink the Wranglers could play in?




As a Wranglers' season ticket holder, I would be very disappointed to see them leave. They regularly draw respectable crowds (2,500-3,000 during the week, 5,000-6,000 on the weekends...not earth-shattering, but respectable) and their fan base is passionate and supportive. It would be a shame to see them go.

The arena at the South Point Hotel & Casino, which was suggested in another post, is the only real alternative. And as it happens, it would be perfect. It is ideally located, is virtually a carbon copy in appearance and seating capacity as the Orleans' arena, and it is sorely underused. I just checked the schedule for events in 2014 and between now and the end of May there are only THREE on calendar (two days of flat truck racing, an Arenacross, and something called a "Bad A$$ Dash"). It would be a perfect replacement, and if they don't have their own ice making/maintenance equipment they can just buy the Orleans'. Not that the Orleans will need it anymore.

The only other options in town are the Thomas & Mack Center, the MGM Grand Garden Arena, and the Mandalay Bay Arena. None are viable options. Thomas & Mack is among the worst and most outdated arenas in the country and it will look awkward seeing 3,000 people sitting in an arena that can hold 13,000. The Las Vegas Thunder of the old IHL played in T&M for a while and it couldn't make it work, and they drew far bigger crowds. MGM and Mandalay Bay would not be interested, ECHL hockey is far too "bush league" and "C-list" for them. I cant imagine that arenas which regularly host the world's biggest fights and entertainers will want to share the marquis with a low-level minor-league hockey team. 

As for the possibilities of an arena in Las Vegas, I doubt it will ever happen. The idea of building an arena has gained a lot of steam in the past decade or so, but the end result is always the same: the idea gets proposed, kicked around in the media for a while, and then disappears. When Oscar Goodman was mayor it was a pipe dream of his to get an arena built and then try to draw a pro sports team (preferably an NBA team, but they'd settle for an NHL team). Now that he's not mayor anymore the issue has faded into the background. A couple weeks ago there was another new story in the media about a private investor wanting to build a $1.2 billion arena on the grounds of the now-closed Sahara Hotel & Casino, but Las Vegans have heard it all before and grown jaded. We'll believe it when concrete it finally being laid, until then it's just noise.

The big problem is that even if we build an arena, there is no guarantee we will get a team. Then what? Who wants to build an arena for nothing? The NFL has gone on record as saying Vegas will never get a team as long as their is legalized gambling in Nevada. I don't remember if the NHL has taken a stance on the issue, but I know the NBA held the All-Star game at Thomas & Mack a few years back as sort of an "audition" to show Vegas is capable of supporting a team, and the entire weekend turned out to be a disaster. So they're probably not likely to give us a team. 

Anyway, I'm getting off track. According to a local article the Wranglers have only until Jan. 20 to show the ECHL they are in serious discussions with an arena or they will not be allowed to play next season, which means they would either fold or move. The South Point Arena is a perfect and logical choice: the Wranglers need a home, and the South Point Arena needs tenants. Hopefully it's not too late and these two entities can come together and reach an agreement in time.


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## lvwranglersfan

PaulieVegas said:


> As a Wranglers' season ticket holder, I would be very disappointed to see them leave. They regularly draw respectable crowds (2,500-3,000 during the week, 5,000-6,000 on the weekends...not earth-shattering, but respectable) and their fan base is passionate and supportive. It would be a shame to see them go.
> 
> The arena at the South Point Hotel & Casino, which was suggested in another post, is the only real alternative. And as it happens, it would be perfect. It is ideally located, is virtually a carbon copy in appearance and seating capacity as the Orleans' arena, and it is sorely underused. I just checked the schedule for events in 2014 and between now and the end of May there are only THREE on calendar (two days of flat truck racing, an Arenacross, and something called a "Bad A$$ Dash"). It would be a perfect replacement, and if they don't have their own ice making/maintenance equipment they can just buy the Orleans'. Not that the Orleans will need it anymore.
> 
> The only other options in town are the Thomas & Mack Center, the MGM Grand Garden Arena, and the Mandalay Bay Arena. None are viable options. Thomas & Mack is among the worst and most outdated arenas in the country and it will look awkward seeing 3,000 people sitting in an arena that can hold 13,000. The Las Vegas Thunder of the old IHL played in T&M for a while and it couldn't make it work, and they drew far bigger crowds. MGM and Mandalay Bay would not be interested, ECHL hockey is far too "bush league" and "C-list" for them. I cant imagine that arenas which regularly host the world's biggest fights and entertainers will want to share the marquis with a low-level minor-league hockey team.
> 
> As for the possibilities of an arena in Las Vegas, I doubt it will ever happen. The idea of building an arena has gained a lot of steam in the past decade or so, but the end result is always the same: the idea gets proposed, kicked around in the media for a while, and then disappears. When Oscar Goodman was mayor it was a pipe dream of his to get an arena built and then try to draw a pro sports team (preferably an NBA team, but they'd settle for an NHL team). Now that he's not mayor anymore the issue has faded into the background. A couple weeks ago there was another new story in the media about a private investor wanting to build a $1.2 billion arena on the grounds of the now-closed Sahara Hotel & Casino, but Las Vegans have heard it all before and grown jaded. We'll believe it when concrete it finally being laid, until then it's just noise.
> 
> The big problem is that even if we build an arena, there is no guarantee we will get a team. Then what? Who wants to build an arena for nothing? The NFL has gone on record as saying Vegas will never get a team as long as their is legalized gambling in Nevada. I don't remember if the NHL has taken a stance on the issue, but I know the NBA held the All-Star game at Thomas & Mack a few years back as sort of an "audition" to show Vegas is capable of supporting a team, and the entire weekend turned out to be a disaster. So they're probably not likely to give us a team.
> 
> Anyway, I'm getting off track. According to a local article the Wranglers have only until Jan. 20 to show the ECHL they are in serious discussions with an arena or they will not be allowed to play next season, which means they would either fold or move. The South Point Arena is a perfect and logical choice: the Wranglers need a home, and the South Point Arena needs tenants. Hopefully it's not too late and these two entities can come together and reach an agreement in time.




First, let's hope we don't get an NHL team here in Vegas. It would fail miserably. 

Now on to the real issue, Boyd Gaming's eviction of the Wranglers. Boyd released a statement saying they have been unable to reach an agreement. The team released a statement saying there was no offer, just saying they would not be welcome back for next year. I believe the team on this one. Since the deadline is Jan 20, wouldn't it be in the best interest if both parties are interested, to continue negotiations until then before announcing anything? As a season ticket holder since season 4, it sucks that I will most likely not be renewing if they move to the South Point. I am sure it is a nice enough arena but it is way too far away from most of the valley, especially with our freeway traffic. It could take some people living in the far north side of the valley upwards of an hour to get to the South Point. But the people responsible for bringing the Wranglers to the Orleans are now in charge at the South Point so it isn't too farfetched to see it happen. The owner of the South Point loves hockey and used to own the Orleans.

And by the way, the South Point arena, according to their website holds almost 3,000 less people than the Orleans. They list their capacity as 4,600, although that doesn't include temporary seating which I guess could get them close, but there is no firm evidence of that.

It's humorous that an arena that was built for the hockey team, is now telling the team they are not wanted.


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## PaulieVegas

lvwranglersfan said:


> First, let's hope we don't get an NHL team here in Vegas. It would fail miserably.
> 
> Now on to the real issue, Boyd Gaming's eviction of the Wranglers. Boyd released a statement saying they have been unable to reach an agreement. The team released a statement saying there was no offer, just saying they would not be welcome back for next year. I believe the team on this one. Since the deadline is Jan 20, wouldn't it be in the best interest if both parties are interested, to continue negotiations until then before announcing anything? As a season ticket holder since season 4, it sucks that I will most likely not be renewing if they move to the South Point. I am sure it is a nice enough arena but it is way too far away from most of the valley, especially with our freeway traffic. It could take some people living in the far north side of the valley upwards of an hour to get to the South Point. But the people responsible for bringing the Wranglers to the Orleans are now in charge at the South Point so it isn't too farfetched to see it happen. The owner of the South Point loves hockey and used to own the Orleans.
> 
> And by the way, the South Point arena, according to their website holds almost 3,000 less people than the Orleans. They list their capacity as 4,600, although that doesn't include temporary seating which I guess could get them close, but there is no firm evidence of that.
> 
> It's humorous that an arena that was built for the hockey team, is now telling the team they are not wanted.




Okay, thanks for correcting me on the South Point seating capacity. I did not know it was that much lower, 4,600 is not very much. I once went to a minor-league MMA event there and thought the arena looked very similar to the Orleans in seating capacity, obviously I was wrong.

I believe the team in this one too, and I don't think it makes sense for the two sides not to at least do the one-year extension for next season. Who knows, maybe cooler heads will prevail. And I didn't think about that angle with Gaughan (I assume that's who you meant by the South Point's owner) being such a big hockey fan, that is very encouraging.

I do however think you underestimate people's willingness to travel to South Point for games. I'm speculating, but honestly I don't think the drive would be that much worse. It's easy for me to say because I live in Henderson, and South Point is actually closer for me. But I think the South Point is only about four miles south of the Tropicana offramp on 15, which I assume most NLV fans take to get to the Orleans. And as someone who used to drive from Summerlin to Anthem during rush hour, traffic gets considerably smoother once you get past Russell Road.

More importantly, as opposed to the Orleans, South Point is right on the freeway. You get off the freeway, make a left, and boom, you're there. On the other hand, from the freeway the Orleans is a slow and painful 1.5-mile long drive through heavy traffic and lots of stoplights. I'm purely speculating but, I can't imagine the drive to the South Point is much longer or worse than the drive to the Orleans.

Well whatever happens, I'm hopeful that things can get worked out and the Wranglers stay here. I assume you're going to the game this afternoon. Enjoy, maybe I'll see you there.


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## lvwranglersfan

PaulieVegas said:


> Okay, thanks for correcting me on the South Point seating capacity. I did not know it was that much lower, 4,600 is not very much. I once went to a minor-league MMA event there and thought the arena looked very similar to the Orleans in seating capacity, obviously I was wrong.
> 
> I believe the team in this one too, and I don't think it makes sense for the two sides not to at least do the one-year extension for next season. Who knows, maybe cooler heads will prevail. And I didn't think about that angle with Gaughan (I assume that's who you meant by the South Point's owner) being such a big hockey fan, that is very encouraging.
> 
> I do however think you underestimate people's willingness to travel to South Point for games. I'm speculating, but honestly I don't think the drive would be that much worse. It's easy for me to say because I live in Henderson, and South Point is actually closer for me. But I think the South Point is only about four miles south of the Tropicana offramp on 15, which I assume most NLV fans take to get to the Orleans. And as someone who used to drive from Summerlin to Anthem during rush hour, traffic gets considerably smoother once you get past Russell Road.
> 
> More importantly, as opposed to the Orleans, South Point is right on the freeway. You get off the freeway, make a left, and boom, you're there. On the other hand, from the freeway the Orleans is a slow and painful 1.5-mile long drive through heavy traffic and lots of stoplights. I'm purely speculating but, I can't imagine the drive to the South Point is much longer or worse than the drive to the Orleans.
> 
> Well whatever happens, I'm hopeful that things can get worked out and the Wranglers stay here. I assume you're going to the game this afternoon. Enjoy, maybe I'll see you there.




The traffic issue is something I am gauging from my wife's reaction. She doesn't drive freeways and we live in the northwest section of town. We normally take surface streets to the Orleans and it is relatively quick and easy. I did a Google maps comparison of the 2 locations and for me from home, it turns from a 8 mile drive to a 17 mile drive, so it doubles. A drive I am willing to make, but some others may not be.

And yes, I was referring to Gaughan.

We'll see what turns this story takes and I am excited to see and hear the reactions in the arena this afternoon, so yes I will be there. I've only missed a few games this year and they are all on Sunday when my daughter has hockey games of her own.


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## Ginormousthumbs

At this point the South Point casino is it's only option to maintain operations. I have friends that have been season ticket holders since day 1 and I'm not sure if they would make the drive. I live in NLV and I know the amount of games that I would attend would decline. This is really unfortunate news for the team and the fans. If they do move to SP, I would hope that there could be some way to increase the seating, because 4,600 would not be enough.

As far as a "professional" team coming to Vegas, I believe the NHL will be the first to make it's mark. TSN had posted an article a few weeks ago about the NHL and possible expansion in the near future. It mentioned the Northwest, ie Seattle being the main target. The next city mentioned was Las Vegas and how the NHL would love nothing more than to be the first professional team in this city. 
I personally feel an NHL team could do well here. I've had many conversations with hockey fans here that don't support the Wranglers because they are minor league.


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## Cyclones Rock

Sorry to hear about this situation.

I saw all 3 games of the 2008 Kelly Cup finals at The Orleans Arena. I was very impressed with the building.

Here's a link to the South Point facility. It appears to be a more highly utilized facility than one of the posters suggested. I have no idea if it's a viable alternative or not for the Wranglers. I hope that it is.

http://www.southpointarena.com/events.php


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## JB51Hockey

Maybe they'll move to Reno?


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## tvboy11

4600 is a doable size for an arena in this league. Idaho's is about that size and they do just fine. Colorado's is about 5000 and they do okay, too.

You'd almost hope it would create a demand. Fewer seats, more urgency to buy. Doesn't always work that way, though.


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## HansH

jeben51 said:


> Maybe they'll move to Reno?




Not no, but hell no -- for both legal and logistical reasons. There's been an inactive "Reno" franchise paying dues to the ECHL since the WCHL absorption in 2003, so the market isn't even available unless he's bought out.

And even without that hurdle, Reno is just a non-starter until there's a facility. The old WCHL Renegades/Rage played on a temporary arena in the convention center, if I recall correctly, and the CC authorities have shown ZERO interest in allowing that to return, again IIRC. There may be a potential market, there's just no arena -- and that's why the Raiders continue to be dormant.

That said, one more vestige of the classic WCHL is on the way out the door, it looks like... down to just Alaska and Bakersfield of the original six, and add Idaho from the final six... kinda sad.


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## easternrefugee

I posted an article on here several weeks ago about AEG/MGM breaking ground on a new 20,000 seat building to include pro hockey and basketball. Teh building is supposed to be open in 2016. Taking into account marketing in advance maybe this has something to do with this whole thing.

Regardless 18 days is going to be very difficult to get something done. ECHL qualified arenas are not sitting around empty in any city. From what i read South Point is being run by the same group that used to own the Orleans and were not hockey enthused in the past.


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## lvwranglersfan

easternrefugee said:


> Regardless 18 days is going to be very difficult to get something done. ECHL qualified arenas are not sitting around empty in any city. From what i read South Point is being run by the same group that used to own the Orleans and were not hockey enthused in the past.




While I agree the time frame sucks, your comment about Michael Gaughan and Steve Stallworth is off base. The whole reason the Wranglers are here is because of them. Michael Gaughan is a huge hockey fan. They built the Orleans Arena specifically for this purpose. However, they do hate the team president, as does Boyd gaming, which is probably why this started in the first place. Michael Gaughan was one of the names floated when the Wranglers were up for sale a few years ago.


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## PCSPounder

I nearly positioned myself into a Reno Events Center visit next month, or even next week. I partly wanted to see if there was enough floor space for a rink. Problem, of course, is that place is tied up nearly every Saturday night. Even Reno gets a good chunk of the entertainment business.

I might take the locals' words here regarding the personality conflict or whatever you say could be driving this. The back of my mind has the "Orleans thinks it can draw other entertainment options and sell more of the seats and keep the money themselves" line. Of course, perhaps South Point's long-term advantage is being so far away from the recognized Strip. It does have good freeway access, but you do have to drive through the thick of the rush traffic to get there.

BTW, in another circumstance, I'm pissed that I didn't put a foot down on a President's Day weekend visit. I'd wanted to see a midnight Wranglers game. Here's hoping South Point keeps the Wranglers alive and continues that "tradition."


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## easternrefugee

lvwranglersfan said:


> While I agree the time frame sucks, your comment about Michael Gaughan and Steve Stallworth is off base. The whole reason the Wranglers are here is because of them. Michael Gaughan is a huge hockey fan. They built the Orleans Arena specifically for this purpose. However, they do hate the team president, as does Boyd gaming, which is probably why this started in the first place. Michael Gaughan was one of the names floated when the Wranglers were up for sale a few years ago.




He did not buy the team did he???

Kind of interesting how fast this news hit the press. It is obvious that something happened between the team and the Casino. It was clearly unexpected.


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## lvwranglersfan

easternrefugee said:


> He did not buy the team did he???
> 
> Kind of interesting how fast this news hit the press. It is obvious that something happened between the team and the Casino. It was clearly unexpected.




It was, but only because the Wranglers have always taken it for granted their lease would be renewed without issue. The Orleans and the Wranglers have had a rocky relationship for a while now. Each thinks the other side is trying to screw them. From my point of view, I believe the Hotel got a pretty good deal. After all, the Wranglers get very little for concessions, and no suite revenue. All they get is ticket revenue and sales from the team store. I don't know what the rent is anymore, and that might be the part that is bad for the Orleans. 

And no, he didn't buy it, and for good reason. This team is not profitable, and let's be honest, if you are buying a team to make a profit, it is probably the wrong reason. Most sports organizations lose money. They are meant to be write offs for rich people. Everyone tries to make money at it, but it doesn't often pan out that way.


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## lvwranglersfan

PCSPounder said:


> I nearly positioned myself into a Reno Events Center visit next month, or even next week. I partly wanted to see if there was enough floor space for a rink. Problem, of course, is that place is tied up nearly every Saturday night. Even Reno gets a good chunk of the entertainment business.
> 
> I might take the locals' words here regarding the personality conflict or whatever you say could be driving this. The back of my mind has the "Orleans thinks it can draw other entertainment options and sell more of the seats and keep the money themselves" line. Of course, perhaps South Point's long-term advantage is being so far away from the recognized Strip. It does have good freeway access, but you do have to drive through the thick of the rush traffic to get there.
> 
> BTW, in another circumstance, I'm pissed that I didn't put a foot down on a President's Day weekend visit. I'd wanted to see a midnight Wranglers game. Here's hoping South Point keeps the Wranglers alive and continues that "tradition."




Reno couldn't do it anyway right now. They have a franchise that has been granted there and the owners keep paying to keep it active, but they have nowhere to play. 

I guarantee you it is the Orleans thinking they can book the arena with other events to make more money, however, I doubt that to be true. That is what San Diego thought too when they decided they didn't want the Gulls anymore, and now everytime I go past the Sports Arena down there it is empty. They house Disney on Ice down there, but we have a building that already does that here. The Orleans Arena is too small for many of the shows that comes here, so they pick either the Thomas and Mack, or one of the hotels on the strip to host the shows. But I was hearing yesterday that it isn't over yet.


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## HansH

"...blackjack on a Saturday night,
I'm leaving Las Vegas...
...and I won't be back...
No I won't be back.
(Not this time)."

Sorry, had a mid-90s Sheryl Crow flashback for a moment there. 

Sincerely hope that the Wranglers can find SOME way to survive -- I enjoyed the games I saw at the Orleans Arena, and have a fondness for the venue cause I got a tour while it was being constructed. Fond memories.


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## GareFan18

easternrefugee said:


> I posted an article on here several weeks ago about AEG/MGM breaking ground on a new 20,000 seat building to include pro hockey and basketball. Teh building is supposed to be open in 2016. Taking into account marketing in advance maybe this has something to do with this whole thing.
> .




Ha! AEG saying a 20,000 seat arena is for the NHL or NBA...

That's the same **** n' bull story they gave Kansas City. How is Kansas City's NHL or NBA team doing? It's total BS. AEG just wants an arena in Vegas that they can book for concerts. AEG makes a lot more money off concerts than they would if an NHL or NBA team occupied the arena, took 41 of their dates and had to share revenue with AEG.

It's for concerts.

http://populous.com/news/2013/11/05/first-renderings-of-new-las-vegas-arena-unveiled/


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## Francis10

Any update on the LV situation. What are their options? When is the deadline?


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## Cyclones Rock

This article gives reason for hope that Wranglers will find a solution to their arena dilemma.




> Johnson has made a lot of progress even in the past week. Most likely, the team will use a temporary facility in which to play its games next year.
> 
> “We’re looking for a transitional situation, and we would like to have those conversations right now in concert with a permanent solution and work in concert with one entity,” he said. “We know that is not always possible, but it might be a temporary facility where we can get 2,500 or 2,600 seats in. We just want to reset the clock for Jan. 21.”
> 
> Johnson is ready for a shift change, too, if that temporary strategy doesn’t fall into place in time for the Jan. 20 deadline.
> 
> “Scenario 2 for next season is we combine two, three facilities, and we play 10 games in one place and 12 in another place. We have a lot of people who have stepped up and said they are willing to do a situation like that,” said Johnson, who has looked into availability at the Thomas & Mack Center and MGM Grand Garden Arena as a permanent home for the Wranglers.
> 
> Then Johnson, a master promoter, added, “We promise to be more out of the box than Dick Cheney Hunting Vest Night to solve this problem.




http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/ka...johnson-boyd-and-orleans-if-wranglers-are-no/


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## Mayor Bee

[deleted]


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## Artie Fufkin

Cyclones Rock said:


> This article gives reason for hope that Wranglers will find a solution to their arena dilemma.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/ka...johnson-boyd-and-orleans-if-wranglers-are-no/




That article is old. This article from yesterday's R-J says MGM, Mandalay Bay, Thomas & Mack and the Southpoint are all out.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/wranglers-meet-wednesday-echl-discuss-venue-options


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## easternrefugee

Artie Fufkin said:


> That article is old. This article from yesterday's R-J says MGM, Mandalay Bay, Thomas & Mack and the Southpoint are all out.
> 
> http://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/wranglers-meet-wednesday-echl-discuss-venue-options




So essentially all fo the 'normal' venues are out. Whether they do a portable one or whatever, I just do not see it drawing the fans that would make it a viable operation. In the Orleans they barely did 4,000 sales. Going to something out of the box with at least two different places to play bsed on the article seems just a little far fetched. Maybe it is time to throw in the towel even with an extension???


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## LadyStanley

http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/ka...lers-weighing-three-options-new-home-2014-15/

New article (dated Sunday) -- apparently there are three options for a move


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## Francis10

Too bad about South Point....seemed like a perfect fit there.


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## AlanMSaunders

Francis10 said:


> Too bad about South Point....seemed like a perfect fit there.




I don't understand how there could be a "scheduling conflict" when the arena's website only shows 3 events booked for all of 2014.


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## Cyclones Rock

AlanMSaunders said:


> I don't understand how there could be a "scheduling conflict" when the arena's website only shows 3 events booked for all of 2014.




http://www.southpointarena.com/events.php

This link shows a lot more bookings than 3.


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## returnoftheyeti

A tent at the Silverton? ok, I am in.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/ka...ohnson-says-echls-confidence-high-wranglers-/


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## easternrefugee

returnoftheyeti said:


> A tent at the Silverton? ok, I am in.
> 
> http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/ka...ohnson-says-echls-confidence-high-wranglers-/




MGM??? really???? Somehow this sounds like pie in the sky......The tent concept sounds more realistic


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## returnoftheyeti

Vegas is a weird place. I could totally see something like a MGM / Mandalay Bay split for a season. 

The primary reason is the "most" locals don't go to the strip. They avoid it like the plague. So, by having a team that has a following, guaranteed to bring 2k+ locals into the "big casino's" on the strip, its a good Loss Leader for MGM. Thats 2k of people that have to walk thorough the casino floor that would normally not. Add in all the free tickets you can give away as a comps, package deals, etc.

Plus, by making a deal with the Wranglers, Hey, we will help you out, they get to snub Boyd Gaming, and to see the actual interest in Hockey, if they want to attempt to attract a NHL team to their new arena. 

Like I said, Vegas is weird. In every other ECHL city, the team and the venue probably needs to make money to survive. In Vegas, something can exist, lose money like crazy, and the casinos do not care, because it brings in 2000 people to the slot machines, where they lose 3x the amount of the ticket price. 

The demographic difference between MGM and the Orleans is crazy. Orleans is almost ALL locals, MGM is almost all tourist.


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## easternrefugee

returnoftheyeti said:


> Vegas is a weird place. I could totally see something like a MGM / Mandalay Bay split for a season.
> 
> The primary reason is the "most" locals don't go to the strip. They avoid it like the plague. So, by having a team that has a following, guaranteed to bring 2k+ locals into the "big casino's" on the strip, its a good Loss Leader for MGM. Thats 2k of people that have to walk thorough the casino floor that would normally not. Add in all the free tickets you can give away as a comps, package deals, etc.
> 
> Plus, by making a deal with the Wranglers, Hey, we will help you out, they get to snub Boyd Gaming, and to see the actual interest in Hockey, if they want to attempt to attract a NHL team to their new arena.
> 
> Like I said, Vegas is weird. In every other ECHL city, the team and the venue probably needs to make money to survive. In Vegas, something can exist, lose money like crazy, and the casinos do not care, because it brings in 2000 people to the slot machines, where they lose 3x the amount of the ticket price.
> 
> The demographic difference between MGM and the Orleans is crazy. * Orleans is almost ALL locals, MGM is almost all tourist*.




You said it perfectly there...Orleans is local. If they kicked out their local team there has to be a GREAT reason. NO ECHL team survives on season ticket sales. the majority of tickets are walk ups. However I do not see tourists paying to go to a local hockey game below the NHL level. MGM is building a HUGE arena which will break ground this spring. I seriously doubt they need a draw of an ECHL team...especially on the strip.


----------



## lvwranglersfan

easternrefugee said:


> You said it perfectly there...Orleans is local. If they kicked out their local team there has to be a GREAT reason. NO ECHL team survives on season ticket sales. the majority of tickets are walk ups. However I do not see tourists paying to go to a local hockey game below the NHL level. MGM is building a HUGE arena which will break ground this spring. I seriously doubt they need a draw of an ECHL team...especially on the strip.




You need to look at the bigger picture. Yes, the Orleans is a local place and they are kicking out the Wranglers. They are doing the same thing that happened in San Diego, figuring they can make more money off other events than minor league hockey. It is a business decision, and their right, but in my mind, a bad decision. MGM (the corporation, not the casino) do want to stick it to Boyd gaming, and show even though they are a tourist spot, they can cater to locals as well. Actually it is a shrewd business move. MGM is a sponsor of many of our local schools, and this will just reinforce they are interested in helping locals out too. This is more of a PR move for them than a money maker. Plus if you take Mandalay Bay's arena, they hardly have any events in there, so at least they could make some money off it.

The Wranglers have a decent following here in Vegas and should get similar walk up sales somewhere new. In fact, they should be able to make more money being out of the Orleans. The Orleans put some terrible restrictions on the Wranglers in their arena. The Wranglers got very little, if any, money from concessions. There is no parking revenue. They get nothing from suite sales. They aren't even allowed to display their championship banners prominently, they are hidden away. The Wranglers can't even have all the sponsors they want because of the Orleans. Plus, any hotel that hosts the team will get the visiting team and any fans that travel to games, and there are a lot, after all this is Vegas. Alaska fans by themselves had 100+ rooms reserved at the Orleans for an upcoming trip (which they cancelled by the way).

And by the way, from what I have heard, and this is strictly rumor, the main reason the Orleans started this is because of a personality conflict with the team president. They thought the threat would get the owner to get rid of the president and the owner called their bluff. They have taken it too far to back out now.

Hopefully they won't play in a tent, but I suppose that is a possibility. My guess is one of the two hotels on the strip will take them in.


----------



## HansH

The article from 1/31 said something about an announcement by "Wednesday", which I assume was 2/5... anything new?


----------



## lvwranglersfan

HansH said:


> The article from 1/31 said something about an announcement by "Wednesday", which I assume was 2/5... anything new?




Nothing. The newest I have heard is an announcement tomorrow, but who knows? The league already said they would give them another extension if they needed it. Last thing the team president said on twitter was they were inching closer.


----------



## PCSPounder

Hmmm, tent or "pop-up arena" (or perhaps pre-fab) like the basketball arena in Santa Cruz? Aluminum siding, baby!






Fold-in bleacher seats and the like...






Now, keep that place refrigerated in Vegas climate? Probably better than a tent, I'd hope.

EDIT- BTW, it took 78 days to construct.


----------



## King RAZZ

Looks like it's downtown...at the Plaza...for 5 to 10 years...with good behavior...
http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/24730541/wranglers-to-move-to-downtown-las-veags-plaza
One with a little more detail...and I thought it was going to be street level at first...
http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/kats-report/2014/feb/14/wranglers-search-new-home-vegas-ends-plaza/

I think the "tents" will be something like what they do for the conventions and at the World Market Center...


----------



## lvwranglersfan

RAZZIE King said:


> Looks like it's downtown...at the Plaza...for 5 to 10 years...with good behavior...
> http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/24730541/wranglers-to-move-to-downtown-las-veags-plaza
> One with a little more detail...and I thought it was going to be street level at first...
> http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/kats-report/2014/feb/14/wranglers-search-new-home-vegas-ends-plaza/
> 
> I think the "tents" will be something like what they do for the conventions and at the World Market Center...




That is the impression I get too. I think the word tent is oversimplifying it. On the one hand, there is the fear of the unknown because we don't really know what they have planned, but on the other hand, it is an interesting plan. A little nervous about 3,500 seats, not that we get a lot more than that on most nights, but still, capping it there seems risky. I am a little nervous about the parking, but when I looked at google maps overheard view, there seems to be a bunch of parking there, and apparently they are thinking of free parking being included with season tickets. 

I must admit, this came completely out of left field for me, I was almost certain it would have been Mandalay Bay, but it is better than putting this same kind of structure at the Silverton. I'll reserve judgment until I see the finished product.


----------



## Ginormousthumbs

I'm excited about the move downtown! The wife and I might consider season tickets. Hopefully it pays off and also are able to expand on the capacity amount.


----------



## HansH

I've been at the Plaza within the last year -- I'm still confused as to whether the new structure is envisoned to coexist with the existing 5th-floor rooftop pool, or replace it... if anyone finds visualizations/concept drawings, I'd really appreciate a pointer. I'm fascinated now -- it's a bold gamble, but definitely a gamble, IMO.


----------



## returnoftheyeti

If you look at Google Satellite images of the Plaza you can see 4x tennis courts next to the pool. That is probably right where they are going to put it. I can't imagine that there is much demand for Tennis at the Plaza. 

http://lasvegassun.com/blogs/kats-report/2014/feb/14/wranglers-search-new-home-vegas-ends-plaza/


----------



## HansH

returnoftheyeti said:


> If you look at Google Satellite images of the Plaza you can see 4x tennis courts next to the pool. That is probably right where they are going to put it. I can't imagine that there is much demand for Tennis at the Plaza.
> 
> http://lasvegassun.com/blogs/kats-report/2014/feb/14/wranglers-search-new-home-vegas-ends-plaza/




I had forgotten those - yeah, that makes a lot more sense


----------



## PCSPounder

Is everybody not seeing the first picture I stole for the Santa Cruz facility? I'm curious because I didn't see it just now and this proposal is, other than the size/shape of the facility, exactly what Santa Cruz has... fabric roof, aluminum siding. 

Let's just say I did more than one double-take when I ran across that article this morning. Damn.


----------



## returnoftheyeti

Yes, I see the picture, and yes, I think you nailed it. My only question is how the heck they keep a building like that effectively air conditioned, but yeah, you called it.


----------



## lvwranglersfan

returnoftheyeti said:


> Yes, I see the picture, and yes, I think you nailed it. My only question is how the heck they keep a building like that effectively air conditioned, but yeah, you called it.




Here is a link to the people who have been contracted to build the "arena" in Vegas. There is a fact sheet on their page for an ice complex they built in Pasadena, so obviously it is not foreign to them. 

http://www.visionbuildingsystems.com/


----------



## Cyclones Rock

This is pure Vegas!! 

Hockey on a rooftop in a tent in the desert!! I love the creativity. With a capacity of 3500, the Wranglers could be a very tough ticket.

Not too many ECHL level type of executives would have had the moxie to pull this off. Especially when faced with such a limited time frame. In fact, there's only one who could. And he did.

Congrats to Billy Johnson on saving the franchise.


----------



## tvboy11

Creativity comes easier when you're desperate. Don't kid yourself, if staying at the Orleans was Plan A, this is about Plan J. Wranglers fans are lucky there were enough options in place to get to a Plan J with all the hotels and event space.

I do appreciate the work the Wranglers have done to keep the team alive. For the sake of the rest of the conference, I hope it works. Concessions, bathrooms, ADA compliance, locker rooms. A lot of work to be done.


----------



## lvwranglersfan

tvboy11 said:


> Creativity comes easier when you're desperate. Don't kid yourself, if staying at the Orleans was Plan A, this is about Plan J. Wranglers fans are lucky there were enough options in place to get to a Plan J with all the hotels and event space.
> 
> I do appreciate the work the Wranglers have done to keep the team alive. For the sake of the rest of the conference, I hope it works. Concessions, bathrooms, ADA compliance, locker rooms. A lot of work to be done.




Locker rooms are accounted for. The hotel is giving the team the entire 5th floor, which is the floor the arena will be on. The locker rooms will be there as well as the teams offices, media rooms, etc. I've been wondering about the concessions and restrooms but I am sure they have taken it into account. This opens up all kinds of revenue stream possibilities because of the restraints the Orleans put on them, so hopefully it works as Billy thinks it will. I personally have some doubts, but I am willing to wait and see.


----------



## JungleJON

Instead of people complaining about the move or having doubts - why don't you see what you can do to help make this move a success. Start off with renewing your season tickets & if you don't have one, buy one or a smaller package. And then get the word out about the team and have a great 2014-2015 season.

We lost our team in Johnstown (have junior league hockey now), but I know there are many fans who wish the ECHL never left. The last owner never did much advertising about the team or putting $$$ into the team to attract players. Declining attendance didn't help as well. Johnstown will never again get a minor pro team.

So I decided to adopt the Wranglers as my new "home" team.


----------



## returnoftheyeti

I do wonder how they will get 3500 people up to the 5th floor. that's a long wait for an elevator if you are number 3498 in line.


----------



## HansH

returnoftheyeti said:


> I do wonder how they will get 3500 people up to the 5th floor. that's a long wait for an elevator if you are number 3498 in line.




They have six elevators in one tower and at least four more in the other -- I wouldn't be at all surprised if others exist that guests weren't previously made aware of that will become available for this purpose.

But yes, they really need to make sure they're on top of the elevator maintenance, that's a good point.


----------



## JB51Hockey

This is for next year, right? Wranglers are finishing the year at Orleans?


----------



## lvwranglersfan

SenorChifles said:


> Instead of people complaining about the move or having doubts - why don't you see what you can do to help make this move a success. Start off with renewing your season tickets & if you don't have one, buy one or a smaller package. And then get the word out about the team and have a great 2014-2015 season.




While I understand your point, especially since you lost your team, those of us with doubts only have those because this is in such an early stage we don't know any details. We can't renew our season tickets yet, because they don't have a design for the building and don't know exactly how the seats will be arranged, etc. It is only natural to wonder at this point. 

I have been involved in the team's booster club since its inception so you don't need to worry about me contributing to the success of the team. I have been a season ticket holder for 8 years now and I will continue to be. 

And in general I like the idea of their own building, but the fact that it is a tent-like structure worries me, and the downtown location is foreign to me as I never go there. But in my conversations with people, no one said they won't go there, but they all worry about the type of people our downtown area attracts.

And to answer the other question, yes, this season will be played entirely at the Orleans, they move next season.


----------



## JungleJON

Didn't mean to put you on the spot or make it seems everything was directed at you. But I have read a few posts "fans" put on Facebook and wondered if they truly were fans of the Wranglers.
It might seem strange playing in a tent, but be glad they had that option. it is for 5 years, with a 5 year option if I am correct. Maybe during the first 5 years they can find or build a more suitable arena and move the team - who knows.
Lots in the world to get uptight about, but enjoy your team and hope you can surprise a few teams in this years playoffs.

And by the way - I live in Peru and we have no ice rinks or most people have never even heard about hockey. I pick up games over the internet via radio or live hookups.


----------



## lvwranglersfan

SenorChifles said:


> Didn't mean to put you on the spot or make it seems everything was directed at you. But I have read a few posts "fans" put on Facebook and wondered if they truly were fans of the Wranglers.
> It might seem strange playing in a tent, but be glad they had that option. it is for 5 years, with a 5 year option if I am correct. Maybe during the first 5 years they can find or build a more suitable arena and move the team - who knows.
> Lots in the world to get uptight about, but enjoy your team and hope you can surprise a few teams in this years playoffs.
> 
> And by the way - I live in Peru and we have no ice rinks or most people have never even heard about hockey. I pick up games over the internet via radio or live hookups.




No offense taken, I was just making sure it was known that not much has been disclosed at this point so there is bound to be some that are apprehensive. And trust me, I understand there are other things to worry about. I actually had some pretty major surgery 3 weeks ago, and at that point, I couldn't have cared less what happened to the Wranglers. But as I have been recovering, the Wranglers have helped me get through it by being a distraction, even if they aren't winning. My main point was that once they disclose plans and more concrete details, the support hopefully will grow. Right now people, I think, are envisioning like a circus tent, not what it will actually look like.


----------



## easternrefugee

lvwranglersfan said:


> No offense taken, I was just making sure it was known that not much has been disclosed at this point so there is bound to be some that are apprehensive. And trust me, I understand there are other things to worry about. I actually had some pretty major surgery 3 weeks ago, and at that point, I couldn't have cared less what happened to the Wranglers. But as I have been recovering, the Wranglers have helped me get through it by being a distraction, even if they aren't winning. My main point was that once they disclose plans and more concrete details, the support hopefully will grow. Right now people, I think, are envisioning like a circus tent, not what it will actually look like.




I like the circus tent idea. Afterall we do have the three ring leaders with two linesman and one ref as the master of ceremonies. 

Honestly I ams ure they will do something. Theyw ill also have the suport of their season ticket holders regardless of where it is. It will come down to will it be good enough for the walk up fan or will they go somewhere else.


----------



## lvwranglersfan

easternrefugee said:


> I like the circus tent idea. After all we do have the three ring leaders with two linesman and one ref as the master of ceremonies.
> 
> Honestly I am sure they will do something. They will also have the support of their season ticket holders regardless of where it is. It will come down to will it be good enough for the walk up fan or will they go somewhere else.




I can see the challenge with walk ups, however, if they can pull 3000 on a Tuesday at the Orleans, I think they can probably do the same downtown. I think the shrinking of the venue will help them sell season tickets because people want to assure they have a seat. Also, the Orleans refused to do any promotion for the Wranglers, and I am pretty sure the Plaza won't have that issue. Also, if season ticket holders get free parking, which is being discussed, that could help sway the people who go to a lot of games on a walk up basis.


----------



## easternrefugee

It is official they are playing on the roof in a tent.


http://www.reviewjournal.com/business/economy/zamboni-roof-must-be-las-vegas-plaza


----------



## Brodie562

Mid night games!! Sweet

Ill be in vegas next week and plan on catching a game. Sounds like a pretty good deal for them. Glad they figured something out.


----------



## lvwranglersfan

Brodie562 said:


> Mid night games!! Sweet




We already have midnight games, 2 a year. And the attendance is lower than the average for those games. Them saying they are going to have more midnight games actually may affect me renewing my season tickets. As it is, we waste 6 tickets on midnight games because my kids can't go that late. If they do more, I will waste more tickets that I would have paid for. And I know several more season ticket holders in the same situation. It just seems the Wranglers are trying to get the walk up sales at the expense of their season ticket holders because they already have our money. Not a great way to do business in my mind.


----------



## Prussian_Blue

lvwranglersfan said:


> We already have midnight games, 2 a year. And the attendance is lower than the average for those games. Them saying they are going to have more midnight games actually may affect me renewing my season tickets. As it is, we waste 6 tickets on midnight games because my kids can't go that late. If they do more, I will waste more tickets that I would have paid for. And I know several more season ticket holders in the same situation. It just *seems the Wranglers are trying to get the walk up sales at the expense of their season ticket holders because they already have our money. Not a great way to do business in my mind.*




I would have to agree with that. My guess is that the players really don't care for playing that late at night, either... that would really mess up their usual game day routine, I would think.

Seems like the least they could do is offer the STH's a "no wasted ticket" policy, wherein you can exchange unused season tickets for a seat at a future game


----------



## lvwranglersfan

Prussian_Blue said:


> Seems like the least they could do is offer the STH's a "no wasted ticket" policy, wherein you can exchange unused season tickets for a seat at a future game




They do, but considering I have 2 kids and 1 adult ticket that would go unused for each game, it is challenging to find someone to use them, especially if the capacity is going to be 3500 which is well under what it is now, so tickets will be a little more harder to come by. And I do know, the off ice officials are going to refuse to work the midnight games since they all work other jobs the next day.


----------



## goalie41

This is a shame for the Wranglers, the Plaza is a dump!!! Even with it's remodel a few years ago, the place is a dump. Drunks and the homeless hang out in this place. There are no "hidden" elevators to get to the 5th floor. This will have a novelty effect for a season or two, but reality will settle in and a new home will be searched for again in a short period of time. I hope I am wrong.......but I am not very optimistic here.


----------



## Ginormousthumbs

Interesting move for the Wranglers! I for one am excited. The face of downtown is already changing and in the next 5 years will have completely changed. My wife and I spend a lot of time in the downtown area and are thinking about getting season tickets.


----------



## King RAZZ

I can't wait till the first Salvation Army night... I'll have free tickets that night...


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

They are playing ON a roof??? Pictures needed. Lol


----------



## Maddog

SFTC Addict said:


> They are playing ON a roof??? Pictures needed. Lol




Correction. Playing where the pool was. It's not like ice plants haven't come a long way from back in the day and we are talking about Vegas. It will be something special.


----------



## easternrefugee

Maddog said:


> Correction. Playing where the pool was. It's not like ice plants haven't come a long way from back in the day and we are talking about Vegas. It will be something special.




Regardless of how "special" it will be, I will NOT be going to any more LV games and I go to LV enough times during the year for my daughter's dance competitions. I loved the Orleans and went their regularly when the Condors played there over the history of the franchise. Now.....sorry....i am not going to downtown to sit where a pool used to be on top of a roof under a tent. I am sure they will get lots of support or at least i hope so as I do not want to see the west lose another team.


----------



## HansH

Maddog said:


> Correction. Playing where the pool was. It's not like ice plants haven't come a long way from back in the day and we are talking about Vegas. It will be something special.




Correction. Playing NEXT to the pool where the basketball/tennis "sport courts" used to be, in an enclosed structure, not on the roof in the open sunlight.


----------



## JDogindy

I'm torn on this.

On the one hand, it sounds very cool, and the hotel is providing resources for the team.

But, on the other hand, it screams "gimmick".


----------



## easternrefugee

JDogindy said:


> I'm torn on this.
> 
> On the one hand, it sounds very cool, and the hotel is providing resources for the team.
> 
> But, on the other hand, it screams "gimmick".




It sounds desperate. None of the 'normal' arenas will take them so they are doing what I would call a Hail Mary and hope it works. I do not see this working out. It could mean the demise of a franchise which once dominated the west coast of the ECHL.


----------



## lvwranglersfan

easternrefugee said:


> It sounds desperate. None of the 'normal' arenas will take them so they are doing what I would call a Hail Mary and hope it works. I do not see this working out. It could mean the demise of a franchise which once dominated the west coast of the ECHL.




Just a small correction. The problem with finding a new home was the notification came so late from Boyd that most buildings were booked. Several of the arenas were interested but they didn't have available dates. With this new building, not only do they have complete control over the schedule, but for the first time they actually get concession revenue. And now from what I have heard, they are going to make a floor of the hotel into luxury suites, which would be more revenue. 

On top of everything else, they can get more corporate sponsors now because Boyd gaming told they what they could and could not get sponsors for. From a fan standpoint, this building may be a risk, but as far as business goes, they have opened up more revenue streams and shrunk the supply of seats making it potentially more profitable.


----------



## Ginormousthumbs

And the reason why Boyd released notification so late was to try and squeeze more money out of the Wranglers. Boyd didn't think the team would go public with the news. Screw Boyd!


----------



## Ginormousthumbs

I guess there are structural issues and the rink will now be in the parking lot.


----------



## JDogindy

http://www.reviewjournal.com/busine...oposed-rooftop-ice-rink-facility-ground-level

Rather than play on top of the casino, they are moving down to street level.

Personally, this takes away the feel of a "gimmick" a lot.


----------



## easternrefugee

JDogindy said:


> http://www.reviewjournal.com/busine...oposed-rooftop-ice-rink-facility-ground-level
> 
> Rather than play on top of the casino, they are moving down to street level.
> 
> Personally, this takes away the feel of a "gimmick" a lot.




I wonder if it has to do with being cheaper??? Now they do not have to spend the original $5 million for revamping escaators etc. Whether in a parking lot under a tent or on the roof it is a gimmick in my opinion.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Not too shocked, but would've thought that they would've done a feasibility study before announcing the plans. Adding stands and a rink and potentially a few thousand people on a roof is obviously something that just can't be done on a whim, so just assumed they already did the prep work to check that it was okay.


----------



## wildcat48

This seems very FHL-ish to me.... What's next? Trying to play a full season in a baseball park.


----------



## JDogindy

easternrefugee said:


> I wonder if it has to do with being cheaper??? Now they do not have to spend the original $5 million for revamping escaators etc. Whether in a parking lot under a tent or on the roof it is a gimmick in my opinion.




It's probably cheaper, but it's also less of a logistical headache and structural issue than putting a rink on top of a hotel. I'm guessing they'll still use some of the money to revamp the hotel to encourage people to stay there for Wranglers games.

However, I think playing in a tent is less of a gimmick than playing on an old swimming pool. After all, if this works out, than the team and the hotel could work out something where the tent would be replaced with a permanent venue. Parking has always been an issue for the Fremont attractions anyway, so taking away a few spots won't change much.



wildcat48 said:


> This seems very FHL-ish to me.... What's next? Trying to play a full season in a baseball park.




Nah, the FHL would love to play games in a tent in Las Vegas. They would have to settle for a feedlot in Butt Creek, Kentucky.


----------



## Off da post and in

No Fun Shogun said:


> Not too shocked, but would've thought that they would've done a feasibility study before announcing the plans. Adding stands and a rink and potentially a few thousand people on a roof is obviously something that just can't be done on a whim, so just assumed they already did the prep work to check that it was okay.




Under normal circumstances I would agree with your point regarding a feasibility study before announcing the building plans. However, due to the ECHL's timelines for securing a deal, prior to being approved for next season, these types of adaptations will occur. Las Vegas has the fan support, 4500+ per game, but they needed a venue to play in with quick dispatch. Whether they're on a roof or a parking lot they'll have a place to play for 2014-2015, and time to secure a permanent ice facility down the line.


----------



## King RAZZ

It might even be closer to a bus stop...if it's where I think it is... I believe it's just south of the Greyhound bus station...


----------



## PCSPounder

RAZZIE King said:


> It might even be closer to a bus stop...if it's where I think it is... I believe it's just south of the Greyhound bus station...




I've actually arrived from that Greyhound station to walk past the Plaza to Main Street Station (decent place, inexpensive, good brewpub, fish & chips in that brewpub are also yum). Took a couple city busses from there to get to The Orleans for a game that night, flew out the next day.

Yes, the parking lot is the opposite side of the bus station from the Plaza.

Oh, that reminds me: the real attraction of the rooftop site is that you literally walk across Main Street from the Fremont Street Experience, go into the Plaza, take whatever escalators they installed up, and you're there. The parking lot is a couple blocks away, so not quite as special... though some streetside vendors on event nights would be a decent idea.


----------



## lvwranglersfan

So there goes the Plaza idea. http://www.reviewjournal.com/business/frozen-out-las-vegas-wranglers-cancel-ice-rink-arena-project-plaza

I was always told there was a solid plan B and there would 100% be hockey in Vegas next season. Now let's see if that is really true.


----------



## JDogindy

lvwranglersfan said:


> So there goes the Plaza idea. http://www.reviewjournal.com/business/frozen-out-las-vegas-wranglers-cancel-ice-rink-arena-project-plaza
> 
> I was always told there was a solid plan B and there would 100% be hockey in Vegas next season. Now let's see if that is really true.




I thought that the parking lot idea would've been easier.

At this case, they better have a Plan C. The Thomas and Mack Center is dominated by UNLV and teams that have tried to have events there faced strong resistance. The Las Vegas Thunder learned this the hard way.

By the way, why did Boyd Gaming not want the Wranglers there anyway? I know the Orleans isn't the casino infamous for Nudes on Ice (to refer to bizarre uses for skating rinks), but what could justify not having 36 dates filled with regular attendance?


----------



## Ginormousthumbs

I don't understand how the league can't step in and shut this team down for a year until it gets it's act together.


----------



## Ginormousthumbs

JDogindy said:


> I thought that the parking lot idea would've been easier.
> 
> At this case, they better have a Plan C. The Thomas and Mack Center is dominated by UNLV and teams that have tried to have events there faced strong resistance. The Las Vegas Thunder learned this the hard way.
> 
> By the way, why did Boyd Gaming not want the Wranglers there anyway? I know the Orleans isn't the casino infamous for Nudes on Ice (to refer to bizarre uses for skating rinks), but what could justify not having 36 dates filled with regular attendance?




From what I know, Boyd wanted more money from the Wranglers. They tried to blind side them and didn't think the Wranglers would go public so quickly. Boyd didn't think anyone else would take them on and Boyd would have the upper hand.


----------



## lvwranglersfan

Ginormousthumbs said:


> From what I know, Boyd wanted more money from the Wranglers. They tried to blind side them and didn't think the Wranglers would go public so quickly. Boyd didn't think anyone else would take them on and Boyd would have the upper hand.




I honestly don't think money had a lot to do with it. It's been no secret since the beginning, the Wranglers didn't like the Orleans, and the Orleans didn't like the Wranglers. I think the powers that be in charge of the Orleans had finally had enough. From my understanding, they never even exchanged monetary demands before the eviction.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

lvwranglersfan said:


> I honestly don't think money had a lot to do with it. It's been no secret since the beginning, the Wranglers didn't like the Orleans, and the Orleans didn't like the Wranglers. I think the powers that be in charge of the Orleans had finally had enough. From my understanding, they never even exchanged monetary demands before the eviction.




keep fighting for the Wranglers, lv, you've got the whole hockey community backing your franchise to get them stabilized, and somewhere in Vegas


----------



## Ginormousthumbs

lvwranglersfan said:


> I honestly don't think money had a lot to do with it. It's been no secret since the beginning, the Wranglers didn't like the Orleans, and the Orleans didn't like the Wranglers. I think the powers that be in charge of the Orleans had finally had enough. From my understanding, they never even exchanged monetary demands before the eviction.




Money always has something to do with it. Boyd would determin who could and could not be a sponsor. Boyd wouldn't allow the Wranglers to get a cut of the concessions. In the end Boyd felt they could bring in more revenue through the arena with their special events throughout the year, rather than having 36 games of hockey. Boyd and the Wranglers might not have discussed money, but that's what lead to their parting.


----------



## lvwranglersfan

Ginormousthumbs said:


> Money always has something to do with it. Boyd would determin who could and could not be a sponsor. Boyd wouldn't allow the Wranglers to get a cut of the concessions. In the end Boyd felt they could bring in more revenue through the arena with their special events throughout the year, rather than having 36 games of hockey. Boyd and the Wranglers might not have discussed money, but that's what lead to their parting.




While I don't argue that money has something to do with it, the main reasoning is that the team president and the Orleans don't see eye to eye. I heard from an Orleans source that they gave them everything they wanted in the last negotiations, 3 years ago and weren't going to do it again. But the Orleans statement said they couldn't come to terms, yet there were no discussions, so how could they not come to terms? They did get a cut of concessions in the last deal, but you're right, they were limited in sponsors, and got no suite revenue. They didn't get prime dates from the arena. But from what I heard, this was an Orleans power play to get rid of the president and it failed. They think they are going to fill the area with more basketball, and possibly college hockey tournaments. A big fail in my opinion.


----------



## paul-laus

Ginormousthumbs said:


> I don't understand how the league can't step in and shut this team down for a year until it gets it's act together.




Because I think the league is somewhat realistic. The vast, vast, vast majority of teams that take a one year hiatus never come back. The ECHL will bend over backwards to exercise all options because they know that if LV isn't ready for next year, they're likely finito.........


----------



## tvboy11

paul-laus said:


> Because I think the league is somewhat realistic. The vast, vast, vast majority of teams that take a one year hiatus never come back. The ECHL will bend over backwards to exercise all options because they know that if LV isn't ready for next year, they're likely finito.........




I agree. But, long-term, is it in the best interest of the ECHL to keep propping up failing teams in the hopes that they figure it out?


----------



## paul-laus

tvboy11 said:


> I agree. But, long-term, is it in the best interest of the ECHL to keep propping up failing teams in the hopes that they figure it out?




I think that the ECHL looks completely ridiculous and bush league right now by having the San Francisco Bulls fold mid season. Along with the Augusta Lynx and Fresno Falcons folding mid season a few years back, this makes the ECHL look "amateur hour"....The Bulls folding midseason took away a lot of the positive vibes that were being felt by having secured the Indy market. I think if the ECHL loses Vegas too the league is really gonna feel it. It almost seemed that when the ECHL capped membership at 26 teams, they were setting a goal for themselves (perhaps long term) but it seems every offseason now they are losing a couple of markets and not gaining any. They probably want to stem this tide and will really make a concerted effort to keep LV afloat...


----------



## tvboy11

Given where we were as a country, economically, when Fresno and Augusta shut down, I can't really compare the two but, you're right, not seeing the writing on the wall with San Francisco is a bit of a black eye for the league.

With that said, continually watering and pruning a dead tree (so to speak) just for the sake of saying you have a tree seems counterproductive to me. Maybe the ECHL is simply better off at, say, 16-18 teams instead of trying to push 24-26. If you're gonna throw in non-viable teams just to hit a number on a spreadsheet, you're no different than the CHL.


----------



## Off da post and in

tvboy11 said:


> I agree. But, long-term, is it in the best interest of the ECHL to keep propping up failing teams in the hopes that they figure it out?




My guess is the ECHL is most likely assisting the Wranglers in finding an ice surface with appropriate seating capacity for 2 major reasons; 1) an average of 4600 fans per game, and 2) they really can't afford having the Western Conference shrink to 7 teams.

The 30-30-30 Plan stays more viable if LV's situation is corrected. Eventually, I believe the CHL and ECHL will merge with Allen, Denver, Missouri, Rapid City, Tulsa, and Wichita giving the Western Conference 14 teams and the Eastern Conference 14. Arizona, Quad City, and Peoria could be used to reach 30 or to replace other franchises.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

Very sorry to hear that the Plaza rink fell through.

I hope something is worked out for next season. If not, then for the 2015-16 season. Should the Wranglers take a year hiatus, it would be for a legitimate reason. The team had no intention of halting operations. They were impacted by a very odd situation. Having one's venue taken away at the last minute is not something one generally worries about.

The Cincinnati Cyclones underwent a two year suspension of operations from 2004-05 through 2005-6. The franchise returned in 2006-07 and has won 2 Kelly Cups and has seen its attendance increase every year since the return until this past season. So, suspended teams can not only return, but thrive.

If suspension happens in LV, I would think that the arena issues would be resolved in a year's time. With Thomas & Mack, Southpoint and possible other venues (which I'm not aware of), I have optimism that hockey is not a dead issue in Sin City.

Good luck to all of you Wranger fans. May the Wranglers take the ice again and Boyd Gaming and the Orleans Casino get what they deserve.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

paul-laus said:


> I think that the ECHL looks completely ridiculous and bush league right now by having the San Francisco Bulls fold mid season. Along with the Augusta Lynx and Fresno Falcons folding mid season a few years back, this makes the ECHL look "amateur hour"....The Bulls folding midseason took away a lot of the positive vibes that were being felt by having secured the Indy market. I think if the ECHL loses Vegas too the league is really gonna feel it.




While San Francisco may have had risks in taking on such a big market, the team invested $2 million in the facility. They appeared to well capitalized. Stuff happens.

Fresno and Augusta were around for quite a while. They just happened to run out of funds during the course of the same season and the rest of the owners decided not to fund them. While it's not ideal to lose teams mid season, it happens in minor league sports. The number of teams which have folded mid season in the ECHL during its history is not substantial.

The World Hockey Association had far more teams fold in midseason (Denver Spurs/Ottawa Civics, Michigan Stags, Indianapolis Racers, Minnesota Fighting Saints-two versions of them, I believe-and others) in much less time. The American Basketball Association had teams fold or move mid season as well. Both of these leagues had many future Hall of Famers in their sports playing at the time when teams were folding. These leagues were major league in many respects.

The ECHL has faced and will face many challenges in the future. The league is in its 25th season of operation. It is anything but a fly-by-night or unstable operation. It is highly stable as far as low minor leagues go.


----------



## paul-laus

Cyclones Rock said:


> Very sorry to hear that the Plaza rink fell through.
> 
> I hope something is worked out for next season. If not, then for the 2015-16 season. Should the Wranglers take a year hiatus, it would be for a legitimate reason. The team had no intention of halting operations. They were impacted by a very odd situation. Having one's venue taken away at the last minute is not something one generally worries about.
> 
> The Cincinnati Cyclones underwent a two year suspension of operations from 2004-05 through 2005-6. _* The franchise returned in 2006-07 and has won 2 Kelly Cups and has seen its attendance increase every year since the return until this past season. So, suspended teams can not only return, but thrive.*_
> 
> If suspension happens in LV, I would think that the arena issues would be resolved in a year's time. With Thomas & Mack, Southpoint and possible other venues (which I'm not aware of), I have optimism that hockey is not a dead issue in Sin City.
> 
> Good luck to all of you Wranger fans. May the Wranglers take the ice again and Boyd Gaming and the Orleans Casino get what they deserve.




The Cincinatti Cyclones drew 1602 fans for a second round playoff game tonight. I'm sorry my friend but that's downright pathetic. Those are Federal Hockey League numbers. And just for a point of reference, Cincinatti is the exception not the rule. As I said, the vast vast majority parlay a one-two year hiatus into an indefinite one. Ft. Worth Brahamas of the CHL are another franchise that came back as well but most don't. Columbia took a little hiatus 6 years ago......


----------



## Cyclones Rock

paul-laus said:


> The Cincinatti Cyclones drew 1602 fans for a second round playoff game tonight. I'm sorry my friend but that's downright pathetic. Those are Federal Hockey League numbers. And just for a point of reference, Cincinatti is the exception not the rule. As I said, the vast vast majority parlay a one-two year hiatus into an indefinite one. Ft. Worth Brahamas of the CHL are another franchise that came back as well but most don't. Columbia took a little hiatus 6 years ago......




Cyclones playoff attendance has been dreadful so far. Didn't help that the Reds were playing next door and it was a Tuesday. As bad as 1600 is, it's only round 2. Federal League teams-Danbury excepted-don't even get 600 to their playoff games. The AHL Norfolk Admirals drew an announced 1736 tonight. Dollars to donuts that more were actually in the seats in Cincinnati. My guess is that you don't really understand or know much about minor league hockey attendance norms.

Unlike most minor league teams, the Cyclones announce honest numbers....none of the "season tickets that didn't show/tickets distributed fraudulent numbers that so many teams do.

The Cyclones averaged an honest 4200 this year, down from 4400 last year. It's enough to pay the bills.

Some teams come back from hiatuses; others don't. I would think that Las Vegas-if they must go under suspension- would come back given the nature of their situation.


----------



## paul-laus

Cyclones Rock said:


> Cyclones playoff attendance has been dreadful so far. Didn't help that the Reds were playing next door and it was a Tuesday. As bad as 1600 is, it's only round 2. Federal League teams-Danbury excepted-don't even get 600 to their playoff games. The AHL Norfolk Admirals drew an announced 1736 tonight. Dollars to donuts that more were actually in the seats in Cincinnati. *My guess is that you don't really understand or know much about minor league hockey attendance norms.*
> Unlike most minor league teams, the Cyclones announce honest numbers....none of the "season tickets that didn't show/tickets distributed fraudulent numbers that so many teams do.
> 
> The Cyclones averaged an honest 4200 this year, down from 4400 last year. It's enough to pay the bills.
> 
> Some teams come back from hiatuses; others don't. I would think that Las Vegas-if they must go under suspension- would come back given the nature of their situation.




I think that you're absolutely right. I need to take a course in comprehension of minor league hockey attendance numbers so that I can voice my opinions in the same forums as you. Get over yourself. You really think that I just started following minor league hockey last night? I'm perfectly capable to grasp concepts such as paid attendance vs. actual butts in seats just as I am capable to realize that in most American cities hockey will always take a back seat to other sports and minor league hockey even more so. It seems to me that you're prepared to come up with every excuse in the book to give the ECHL more credence at this point. The fact remains, and you can argue this until you're blue in the face, for a clinching second round playoff game 1,602 fans is abysmal, week night or not. You can attempt to downplay its significance as well by pointing to AAA Norfolk and their equally bad attendance numbers. That's sad in its own right and maybe even more so considering they are a couple seasons removed from a Calder Cup. 

The fact remains, and I've stated this earlier on these boards, the ECHL and CHL took a foolish chance when the NHL strike occurred a year and a half go. They went into markets Denver (CHL Cuthroats) and Bay Area (ECHL Bulls) and hoped to fill the gap left for starving Sharks and Avalanche fans. Anybody with common sense could have foreseen that when the strike ended (which it did four months later) people would go back to the superior product and the attendance numbers would dwindle for AA hockey. This happened quickly and the Bulls were forced to pull the plug mid season (which appears to be happening often in the E now) and the ECHL was forced to alter scheduling mid season again. You can take the stance that- "hey it was worth a shot" or "sometimes you win some and sometimes you don't". My stance is the higher ups with the ECHL look foolish for exercising no forethought to see this coming down the pike. They pride themselves on not being too hasty and going into markets without doing their homework first and making sure that markets are in it for the long haul with stable ownership etc. Well, this was ridiculous and it makes the league look bad...


----------



## Steelhead16

paul-laus said:


> I think that you're absolutely right. I need to take a course in comprehension of minor league hockey attendance numbers so that I can voice my opinions in the same forums as you. Get over yourself. You really think that I just started following minor league hockey last night? I'm perfectly capable to grasp concepts such as paid attendance vs. actual butts in seats just as I am capable to realize that in most American cities hockey will always take a back seat to other sports and minor league hockey even more so. It seems to me that you're prepared to come up with every excuse in the book to give the ECHL more credence at this point. The fact remains, and you can argue this until you're blue in the face, for a clinching second round playoff game 1,602 fans is abysmal, week night or not. You can attempt to downplay its significance as well by pointing to AAA Norfolk and their equally bad attendance numbers. That's sad in its own right and maybe even more so considering they are a couple seasons removed from a Calder Cup.
> 
> The fact remains, and I've stated this earlier on these boards, the ECHL and CHL took a foolish chance when the NHL strike occurred a year and a half go. They went into markets Denver (CHL Cuthroats) and Bay Area (ECHL Bulls) and hoped to fill the gap left for starving Sharks and Avalanche fans. Anybody with common sense could have foreseen that when the strike ended (which it did four months later) people would go back to the superior product and the attendance numbers would dwindle for AA hockey. This happened quickly and the Bulls were forced to pull the plug mid season (which appears to be happening often in the E now) and the ECHL was forced to alter scheduling mid season again. You can take the stance that- "hey it was worth a shot" or "sometimes you win some and sometimes you don't". My stance is the higher ups with the ECHL look foolish for exercising no forethought to see this coming down the pike. They pride themselves on not being too hasty and going into markets without doing their homework first and making sure that markets are in it for the long haul with stable ownership etc. Well, this was ridiculous and it makes the league look bad...




I'm not so sure foolish is the correct term for the decision. I agree that San Francisco was a reach. I lived in the Bay Area for over 30 years and I go back to the Shamrocks playing in the Pacific Coast League in the Cow Palace. I went to Sharks and Spiders games there as well as the Seals in Oakland. I live in a city now with an ECHL team that has won the Kelly Cup twice in the recent past and can't fill half their building anymore and it pisses me off so much that I don't go anymore unless I have free tickets. So I get your frustration.
That being said, I also get that teams at this level exist for different reasons and that it's not only a lower level of talent on the ice, but also a lower level off the ice as well. Idaho used to fill its building to the rafters (a little over 5,000) for all weekend games at least and the playoffs there were true "white outs" and SRO crowds. It was a new product, a new sport and the city was growing tremendously at the time as well. Once the newness wore off there was nobody to bring people in the door. The "marketing" staff was a few college interns making squat sitting around trying to drum up ideas. They had no experience to draw from for ideas that had worked in other places because there were no other places. There was no budget for marketing because there was really no interest in making money. The team is owned by a company that owns and runs hotels. If the team loses money then its a tax write off. If it breaks even, then no harm no foul and making a little money is actually a worse deal for them. They can't make enough money for it to be a financially viable investment. It keeps a tenant in the arena which they own which is in a hotel they own.
Nobody owns an ECHL team to get rich. They are tax write offs and toys and tools to increase downtown traffic to businesses......whatever else. So to expect an ECHL franchise to flourish within a major market with major sports franchises is a reach. The teams that do well do well for different reasons too. Some are run by people with a passion for hockey and forsake the cost because they love it. Some are the only game in town. Whatever the reason one fails and one survives or flourishes there is no blueprint like there is in say the NFL. No owners groups or tv contracts to split up to help the smaller markets. They are on their own and therefore you have 25+/- different situations to try and mold into a league.
I get your frustration and I'm sure I have many of the same ones as well but at the end of the day, 25 of anything will have strong ones and weak ones and most in the middle somewhere. I love minor league sports but they are a struggle and will always be a struggle. Football has tried a few different ventures to have a minor league but have always failed, even when the NFL was involved. The CBA was all but dead until the NBA came in to help out but the D League certainly isn't flourishing by any means. Minor league baseball survives because of help from their MLB clubs and because of the time of year they play. It's cheap and people can take the family out and enjoy the outdoors and more people enjoy and understand baseball.
Hockey is a sport that people won't get into on tv. It has to be experienced live but that requires getting them in the door and educating them on what they are watching. That is and always be the problem faced by minor league hockey. Not foolish, just reality.


----------



## Clinton Comets EHL

Steelhead16 said:


> I'm not so sure foolish is the correct term for the decision. I agree that San Francisco was a reach. I lived in the Bay Area for over 30 years and I go back to the Shamrocks playing in the Pacific Coast League in the Cow Palace. I went to Sharks and Spiders games there as well as the Seals in Oakland. I live in a city now with an ECHL team that has won the Kelly Cup twice in the recent past and can't fill half their building anymore and it pisses me off so much that I don't go anymore unless I have free tickets. So I get your frustration.
> That being said, I also get that teams at this level exist for different reasons and that it's not only a lower level of talent on the ice, but also a lower level off the ice as well. Idaho used to fill its building to the rafters (a little over 5,000) for all weekend games at least and the playoffs there were true "white outs" and SRO crowds. It was a new product, a new sport and the city was growing tremendously at the time as well. Once the newness wore off there was nobody to bring people in the door. The "marketing" staff was a few college interns making squat sitting around trying to drum up ideas. They had no experience to draw from for ideas that had worked in other places because there were no other places. There was no budget for marketing because there was really no interest in making money. The team is owned by a company that owns and runs hotels. If the team loses money then its a tax write off. If it breaks even, then no harm no foul and making a little money is actually a worse deal for them. They can't make enough money for it to be a financially viable investment. It keeps a tenant in the arena which they own which is in a hotel they own.
> Nobody owns an ECHL team to get rich. They are tax write offs and toys and tools to increase downtown traffic to businesses......whatever else. So to expect an ECHL franchise to flourish within a major market with major sports franchises is a reach. The teams that do well do well for different reasons too. Some are run by people with a passion for hockey and forsake the cost because they love it. Some are the only game in town. Whatever the reason one fails and one survives or flourishes there is no blueprint like there is in say the NFL. No owners groups or tv contracts to split up to help the smaller markets. They are on their own and therefore you have 25+/- different situations to try and mold into a league.
> I get your frustration and I'm sure I have many of the same ones as well but at the end of the day, 25 of anything will have strong ones and weak ones and most in the middle somewhere. I love minor league sports but they are a struggle and will always be a struggle. Football has tried a few different ventures to have a minor league but have always failed, even when the NFL was involved. The CBA was all but dead until the NBA came in to help out but the D League certainly isn't flourishing by any means. Minor league baseball survives because of help from their MLB clubs and because of the time of year they play. It's cheap and people can take the family out and enjoy the outdoors and more people enjoy and understand baseball.
> Hockey is a sport that people won't get into on tv. It has to be experienced live but that that requires getting them in the door and educating them on what they are watching. That is and always be the problem faced by minor league hockey. Not foolish, just reality.




Wish we had more intelligent posters like this. Well thought out and certainly well said.


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## IrascibleOne

Las Vegas granted voluntary suspension

Not good news for LV.


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## JB51Hockey

Sucks. Have to think the ECHL will add the 2 or 3 CHL teams now so they don't field an embarrassing 7 team West Conference.


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## JDogindy

Either that or push really hard to put a team in Fresno as a stopgap.

But I'm hoping that the CHL situation can help the ECHL. Still, I hope the Wranglers work out something... most teams don't come back...


----------



## JB51Hockey

JDogindy said:


> Still, I hope the Wranglers work out something... most teams don't come back...




I think Wranglers are the lone exception. An NHL team won't be in Vegas ever and even the thought of an AHL team in Vegas isn't much more than a thought.


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## Maddog

JB51Hockey said:


> Sucks. Have to think the ECHL will add the 2 or 3 CHL teams now so they don't field an embarrassing 7 team West Conference.




I like that idea but I don't think CHL will go quietly into the night.


----------



## Ginormousthumbs

I'll be very surprised if the Wranglers return. I know it happened it Toledo, but this city is different. A year and a half away could be the kiss of death for this organization. I think there were 3 or 400 people who showed up for their last playoff game. 
And I guess that I'm one of the few people that think that Vegas will get an NHL team.


----------



## Maddog

Ginormousthumbs said:


> I'll be very surprised if the Wranglers return. I know it happened it Toledo, but this city is different. A year and a half away could be the kiss of death for this organization. I think there were 3 or 400 people who showed up for their last playoff game.
> And I guess that I'm one of the few people that think that Vegas will get an NHL team.




Agree. Toledo had a new home in place, or being built, when they went dark. This is different. Wranglers, as of now, don't have a arena plan being published.


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## paul-laus

Ginormousthumbs said:


> I'll be very surprised if the Wranglers return. I know it happened it Toledo, but this city is different. A year and a half away could be the kiss of death for this organization. I think there were 3 or 400 people who showed up for their last playoff game.
> *And I guess that I'm one of the few people that think that Vegas will get an NHL team.*





I can't believe that I'm gonna say this but I agree with you. The NHL needs two western based teams to even out the conferences and I really believe that they're going to use Quebec City as a relocation market at some point rather than an expansion target. Kansas City has the vacant Sprint Centre but no legitimate ownership possibilities. The consensus is starting to become that Bettman truly wants the NHL to be the first major league sports league to enter into the Vegas market. I'm not saying within the next couple of years or anything, but when they expand to Seattle, I can picture Vegas as well. 

I wish Portland's NBA owner was more willing to consider splitting the Rose Garden with an NHL tenant but he likes having the market to himself (MLS aside).........WHL Winterhawks numbers were fabulous this past season and hockey appears to be growing in popularity there.....


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## CHRDANHUTCH

paul-laus said:


> [/U][/I][/B]
> 
> I can't believe that I'm gonna say this but I agree with you. The NHL needs two western based teams to even out the conferences and I really believe that they're going to use Quebec City as a relocation market at some point rather than an expansion target. Kansas City has the vacant Sprint Centre but no legitimate ownership possibilities. The consensus is starting to become that Bettman truly wants the NHL to be the first major league sports league to enter into the Vegas market. I'm not saying within the next couple of years or anything, but when they expand to Seattle, I can picture Vegas as well.
> 
> I wish Portland's NBA owner was more willing to consider splitting the Rose Garden with an NHL tenant but he likes having the market to himself (MLS aside).........WHL Winterhawks numbers were fabulous this past season and hockey appears to be growing in popularity there.....





Blazers play in the MODA Center, Paul.


----------



## Maddog

paul-laus said:


> [/U][/I][/B]
> 
> I can't believe that I'm gonna say this but I agree with you. The NHL needs two western based teams to even out the conferences and I really believe that they're going to use Quebec City as a relocation market at some point rather than an expansion target. Kansas City has the vacant Sprint Centre but no legitimate ownership possibilities. The consensus is starting to become that Bettman truly wants the NHL to be the first major league sports league to enter into the Vegas market. I'm not saying within the next couple of years or anything, but when they expand to Seattle, I can picture Vegas as well.
> 
> I wish Portland's NBA owner was more willing to consider splitting the Rose Garden with an NHL tenant but he likes having the market to himself (MLS aside).........WHL Winterhawks numbers were fabulous this past season and hockey appears to be growing in popularity there.....





You forgot Seattle. A new ownership group has emerged with Victor Coleman and Johnny Glasser taking the lead as the front runner. NHL's Gary Bettman, his deputy Bill Daly, and the new ownership group met with Seattle's mayor and King County executive to discuss changing the MOU agreement for the new arena on May 6. The new ownership group has been in touch with Hansen, the primary individual that is heading the new arena, since October of last year. It still appears that NHL wants Seattle. Now the question is does Seattle want the NHL.


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## BigZ65

So a hockey team won't play on the roof of a casino?


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## paul-laus

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> Blazers play in the MODA Center, Paul.




In addition to Memorial Coliseum Hutch. I'm aware that the Winterhawks don't play at the Rose Garden. Perhaps my previous post was a little scattered. My point though was that the attendance of many Winterhawk playoff games was 10,000+. There has been talk in the past of the NHL in Portland and they had an NHL franchise in the early 1900's. My understanding is that the owner of the Blazers owns the Rose Garden and wouldn't even consider having a second tenant at the arena because he wants zero competition for the Blazers in the Portland market. My own hope would be that I'd love to see the NHL (if they expand and if there was quality ownership in place) go into Seattle and Portland as there would be fantastic cross border rivalries between the Canucks and teams in those two cities which would include fans travelling relatively short distances. Also both were original NHL cities in the early days and junior hockey markets with storied histories in the WHL....


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## paul-laus

Maddog said:


> You forgot Seattle. A new ownership group has emerged with Victor Coleman and Johnny Glasser taking the lead as the front runner. NHL's Gary Bettman, his deputy Bill Daly, and the new ownership group met with Seattle's mayor and King County executive to discuss changing the MOU agreement for the new arena on May 6. The new ownership group has been in touch with Hansen, the primary individual that is heading the new arena, since October of last year. It still appears that NHL wants Seattle. Now the question is does Seattle want the NHL.




For sure. I agree with you. The NHL desperately want Seattle and it likely will end up happening.


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## CHRDANHUTCH

Maddog said:


> You forgot Seattle. A new ownership group has emerged with Victor Coleman and Johnny Glasser taking the lead as the front runner. NHL's Gary Bettman, his deputy Bill Daly, and the new ownership group met with Seattle's mayor and King County executive to discuss changing the MOU agreement for the new arena on May 6. The new ownership group has been in touch with Hansen, the primary individual that is heading the new arena, since October of last year. It still appears that NHL wants Seattle. Now the question is does Seattle want the NHL.




Seattle's unlikely, maddog, see the Business thread on here, expansion isn't coming and the MOU will likely have to be renewed before Seattle gets a franchise, they have no history to speak of in the modern era. it's more political in Seattle and has been since Sonicsgate.


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## Maddog

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> Seattle's unlikely, maddog, see the Business thread on here, expansion isn't coming and the MOU will likely have to be renewed before Seattle gets a franchise, they have no history to speak of in the modern era. it's more political in Seattle and has been since Sonicsgate.




Here is wishful thinking. Like we all believe Bettman saying expansion is unlikely. I don't believe Bettman would be visiting the city to discuss modifying the MOU unless he had other plans. Why would he ask for the MOU for the planned arena to be changed to be NHL unless he had other plans? Expansion may not happen this year or next but it will happen and Seattle, if they can get their crap together, is the front runner. As for history, there is a long line of teams that had no recent, or history, with NHL. Recent history with NHL means failure. Who wants to revisit failure?


----------



## PCSPounder

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> Blazers play in the MODA Center, Paul.




Would you like to know how many Portlanders want to go skates up on that name, Hutch?


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## Maddog

PCSPounder said:


> Would you like to know how many Portlanders want to go skates up on that name, Hutch?




oh so many comments I could make! I kid...I kid Winterhawks fans traveling to Seattle has always treated my family with respect. Naturally, they were kicking our butts at the time but it was with respect.


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## CHRDANHUTCH

Maddog said:


> Here is wishful thinking. Like we all believe Bettman saying expansion is unlikely. I don't believe Bettman would be visiting the city to discuss modifying the MOU unless he had other plans. Why would he ask for the MOU for the planned arena to be changed to be NHL unless he had other plans? Expansion may not happen this year or next but it will happen and Seattle, if they can get their crap together, is the front runner. As for history, there is a long line of teams that had no recent, or history, with NHL. Recent history with NHL means failure. Who wants to revisit failure?




again, what does this have to do w/ Las Vegas?????????


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## Maddog

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> again, what does this have to do w/ Las Vegas?????????




It doesn't. The topic got diverted when the issue of Vegas and NHL was mentioned.


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## JDogindy

The Wranglers have vowed to return for the 2015-16 season. Three months is too much to find a new venue, but a year will be plenty of time. I expect them to go to the MGM Grand.

Still, I think they will add a temporary team to make the West an eight-team conference. Fresno will be that team.


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## CHRDANHUTCH

JDogindy said:


> The Wranglers have vowed to return for the 2015-16 season. Three months is too much to find a new venue, but a year will be plenty of time. I expect them to go to the MGM Grand.
> 
> Still, I think they will add a temporary team to make the West an eight-team conference. Fresno will be that team.




Fresno failed and has the WSHL Tier II Fresno Monsters, selling tix @ www.fresnomonsters.com, JD


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## JDogindy

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> Fresno failed and has the WSHL Tier II Fresno Monsters, selling tix @ www.fresnomonsters.com, JD




Correct, the Falcons folded in December of 2008. But, when the San Francisco Bulls folded, the only potential buyer had interest in putting the assets in Fresno.

And, it only has to be for one season anyway to avoid an embarrassing situation, so the ECHL is going to look for alternative solutions for next year.


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## CHRDANHUTCH

JDogindy said:


> Correct, the Falcons folded in December of 2008. But, when the San Francisco Bulls folded, the only potential buyer had interest in putting the assets in Fresno.
> 
> And, it only has to be for one season anyway to avoid an embarrassing situation, so the ECHL is going to look for alternative solutions for next year.




false, the ECHL holds the rights to SF, and any franchise, JD, typically, by agreement, if there's an existing team, they won't be going there.

if Fresno's got the Monsters, unlikely you'll ever see pro hockey return to Seiland or the Save Mart Center, not even temporarily.


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## Ginormousthumbs

Not enough time for the E to put an emergency team in the West for this season. They will probably give the 1st seed from the West a bye for the first round, or allow 9 teams from the East to make the playoffs. 

If and when the bumbling Wranglers come back, it would be in their best interest to stay away from the strip. I know I wouldn't want to have to hassle with that traffic 36 times a season.


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## JDogindy

Ginormousthumbs said:


> Not enough time for the E to put an emergency team in the West for this season. They will probably give the 1st seed from the West a bye for the first round, or allow 9 teams from the East to make the playoffs.
> 
> If and when the bumbling Wranglers come back, it would be in their best interest to stay away from the strip. I know I wouldn't want to have to hassle with that traffic 36 times a season.




Oh, when I'm going to explain to fellow Naptowners about the ECHL next season, they're gonna take one look at the standings and wonder why they even have West Coast teams. Barring the CHL's collapse, a seven-team conference is the future.

I do agree about avoiding the Strip, but I don't think the Wranglers meant this situation to happen.


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## PaulieVegas

JDogindy said:


> I do agree about avoiding the Strip, but I don't think the Wranglers meant this situation to happen.




I don't think so either, but honestly, they only have themselves to blame for it. They made their own bed. 

Last season, ownership (Gary Jacobs, a San Diego real estate developer with no real ties to the Las Vegas community) decided to run things on the cheap. The team fired a good and experienced coach and hired a rookie coach on the cheap and also handed him the GM title. They slashed their budget for player salaries, which resulted in 5 of the team's 6 top scorers and his starting goalie leaving for better money elsewhere. The team replaced them with cheaper alternatives who weren't up to snuff (seriously, did Anthony Perdicaro or Ryan Forgaard have any business playing at this level?). Hell, even the weekly Saturday night radio show on ESPN 920 was dark half the time with no explanation as to why.

As a direct result of this new "cheap" approach, the team was not competitive. As a further result, attendance suffered. I was a season ticket holder in Section 110 and it was sad to watch the crowd size slowly start to dwindle game after game. Surely, the Boyd Gaming brass had their eyes open and said, "Screw it, if this guy wants to run this organization on the cheap, he can do it somewhere else," and that's why they decided not to renew the lease.

Personally, I don't blame them. The math wasn't hard to do: 
(1) cheap owner = non-competitive team
(2) non-competitive team = lower attendance figures
(3) lower attendance figures = fewer people in the arena to buy Boyd Gaming's overpriced beer and pretzels, not to mention fewer people stopping by the blackjack table on the way to their car to lose $50
(4) eff it, from a business perspective this relationship makes no sense.


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## Hoodaha

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> Fresno failed and has the WSHL Tier II Fresno Monsters, selling tix @ www.fresnomonsters.com, JD




Fresno's attendance numbers were never all that bad. I don't know that it's fair to say they failed. I believe it was an ownership problem and switches between arenas that did them in, though I could be mistaken.


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## Gibbie42

PaulieVegas said:


> I don't think so either, but honestly, they only have themselves to blame for it. They made their own bed.
> 
> Last season, ownership (Gary Jacobs, a San Diego real estate developer with no real ties to the Las Vegas community) decided to run things on the cheap. The team fired a good and experienced coach and hired a rookie coach on the cheap and also handed him the GM title. They slashed their budget for player salaries, which resulted in 5 of the team's 6 top scorers and his starting goalie leaving for better money elsewhere. The team replaced them with cheaper alternatives who weren't up to snuff (seriously, did Anthony Perdicaro or Ryan Forgaard have any business playing at this level?). Hell, even the weekly Saturday night radio show on ESPN 920 was dark half the time with no explanation as to why.
> 
> As a direct result of this new "cheap" approach, the team was not competitive. As a further result, attendance suffered. I was a season ticket holder in Section 110 and it was sad to watch the crowd size slowly start to dwindle game after game. Surely, the Boyd Gaming brass had their eyes open and said, "Screw it, if this guy wants to run this organization on the cheap, he can do it somewhere else," and that's why they decided not to renew the lease.
> 
> Personally, I don't blame them. The math wasn't hard to do:
> (1) cheap owner = non-competitive team
> (2) non-competitive team = lower attendance figures
> (3) lower attendance figures = fewer people in the arena to buy Boyd Gaming's overpriced beer and pretzels, not to mention fewer people stopping by the blackjack table on the way to their car to lose $50
> (4) eff it, from a business perspective this relationship makes no sense.




Vegas' attendance was higher 2013-2014 than it had been in several seasons:

2013-2014: 4581 
2012-2013: 4561
2011-2012: 4339
2010-2011: 3940
2009-2010: 4350
2008-2009: 4621
2007-2008: 4970
2006-2007: 5075

So while they had a falloff from early years the attendance was certainly on the upswing. 

It seems clear that there was a problem with the relationship between the owner and the hotel, I think it might be simplistic to pin that on team performance and attendance. Besides unless the hotel can fill 36 dates with something else, lower attendance is better than none at all.

ECHL Attendance stats


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## PCSPounder

Gibbie42 said:


> Vegas' attendance was higher 2013-2014 than it had been in several seasons:
> 
> 2013-2014: 4581
> 2012-2013: 4561
> 2011-2012: 4339
> 2010-2011: 3940
> 2009-2010: 4350
> 2008-2009: 4621
> 2007-2008: 4970
> 2006-2007: 5075
> 
> So while they had a falloff from early years the attendance was certainly on the upswing.
> 
> It seems clear that there was a problem with the relationship between the owner and the hotel, I think it might be simplistic to pin that on team performance and attendance. Besides unless the hotel can fill 36 dates with something else, lower attendance is better than none at all.
> 
> ECHL Attendance stats




May I offer the basic disclaimer?

Never mind, I'll actually expand on it anyway. Announced attendance numbers are part of a POLITICAL game. They're easily maneuvered and almost never audited.

You could argue those numbers are accurate and still talk about adjusted promotions that might have brought more people into particular games. You could also say the team had a reason for adding more "comps" to the numbers. Pictorial evidence between 12-13 and 13-14 would be nice to have, but I won't hold my breath.


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## Sports Enthusiast

They won't come back. I'd bet a fortune on it really.


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## Off da post and in

SFTC Addict said:


> They won't come back. I'd bet a fortune on it really.




Here's an idea!!
You seem to know so much about what the ECHL should and shouldn't do, and you're very critical about them with such regularity and sureness. Why don't you go to one of their casinos and put that fortune where you mouth is ?
I can assure you some casino will accommodate such a wager.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Off da post and in said:


> Here's an idea!!
> You seem to know so much about what the ECHL should and shouldn't do, and you're very critical about them with such regularity and sureness. Why don't you go to one of their casinos and put that fortune where you mouth is ?
> I can assure you some casino will accommodate such a wager.




Well Vegas is forever away and I doubt a casino in upstate NY like turning stone will have a rats *** idea about what I'm talking about.


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## Off da post and in

SFTC Addict said:


> They won't come back. I'd bet a fortune on it really.






SFTC Addict said:


> Well Vegas is forever away and I doubt a casino in upstate NY like turning stone will have a rats *** idea about what I'm talking about.




Convenient !


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## PaulieVegas

PCSPounder said:


> May I offer the basic disclaimer?
> 
> Never mind, I'll actually expand on it anyway. Announced attendance numbers are part of a POLITICAL game. They're easily maneuvered and almost never audited.
> 
> You could argue those numbers are accurate and still talk about adjusted promotions that might have brought more people into particular games. You could also say the team had a reason for adding more "comps" to the numbers. Pictorial evidence between 12-13 and 13-14 would be nice to have, but I won't hold my breath.




Exactly. When you go to enough games over the years, you get a good feel for what attendance is like. I went to probably 25 games last year, including the two playoff games, and there were far more empty seats than the previous two seasons. There were nights towards the end of the year where the arena was so empty I could hear people shouting from the other end of the arena. The playoffs were especially sad, lots of empty seats, I would be surprised if we got 3,000 fans for either game.

It's now early December and there has been no new local news or even rumors about the return of the Wranglers and/or where they might play. It's fair to say we've seen the last of them.


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## Hoodaha

PaulieVegas said:


> Exactly. When you go to enough games over the years, you get a good feel for what attendance is like. I went to probably 25 games last year, including the two playoff games, and there were far more empty seats than the previous two seasons. There were nights towards the end of the year where the arena was so empty I could hear people shouting from the other end of the arena. The playoffs were especially sad, lots of empty seats, I would be surprised if we got 3,000 fans for either game.
> 
> It's now early December and there has been no new local news or even rumors about the return of the Wranglers and/or where they might play. It's fair to say we've seen the last of them.




I think it's safe to assume that the future of an ECHL Vegas depends a whole lot on the rumored NHL expansion and the situation with the AHL getting a Western conference.

As to the attendance, yes, all teams play these games with the numbers, but from all the accounts I've heard, team financial issues were not the problem in Vegas...it was the arena owners that were the problem. By the way, minor league hockey is pretty notorious for having smaller crowds during the playoffs, at least until the later rounds.


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## Ginormousthumbs

I believe the Wranglers have until January to inform the E of their intentions for the 15-16 season. I've heard zero news. I expect the next announcement to be that of them folding.


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## SemireliableSource

I wouldn't hold my breath. It'll either be an announcement of their future plans or they'll quietly ride into the sunset.


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## Sports Enthusiast

FrancoRussianAlaskan said:


> I wouldn't hold my breath. It'll either be an announcement of their future plans or they'll quietly ride into the sunset.




Isn't that what basically has happened with the Inferno?


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## easternrefugee

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/spor...e+interest+expansion+team/10451681/story.html


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## JDogindy

easternrefugee said:


> http://www.edmontonjournal.com/spor...e+interest+expansion+team/10451681/story.html




This may lend some credibility towards the NHL rumor about expanding to 34 teams.

And, you know, at this point, we should just waive "Bye-bye" to the Wranglers. If they were concerned about getting an arena, they would have made more news, but I think everybody has given up.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Sports leagues don't need 30 teams and they certainly do not need 34


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## lvwranglersfan

Well, in what could either be the end or a brand new beginning, the team president of the Wranglers quit today.

http://lasvegassun.com/blogs/kats-report/2014/dec/23/billy-johnson-las-vegas-wranglers-team-president-e/

If it is true that the issue with the Orleans was because of him, this could open some things up, otherwise it could just be the end. Time will tell.


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## Hoodaha

lvwranglersfan said:


> Well, in what could either be the end or a brand new beginning, the team president of the Wranglers quit today.
> 
> http://lasvegassun.com/blogs/kats-report/2014/dec/23/billy-johnson-las-vegas-wranglers-team-president-e/
> 
> If it is true that the issue with the Orleans was because of him, this could open some things up, otherwise it could just be the end. Time will tell.




With the NHL sniffing around and no arena this year, this was bound to happen. I think the Wranglers are done. It's a shame, but hey, at least the Vegas fans may get NHL (or at least expansion NHL) hockey at some point in the near future.I'm glad that the door isn't entirely closed there.


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## lvwranglersfan

Hoodaha said:


> With the NHL sniffing around and no arena this year, this was bound to happen. I think the Wranglers are done. It's a shame, but hey, at least the Vegas fans may get NHL (or at least expansion NHL) hockey at some point in the near future.I'm glad that the door isn't entirely closed there.




So we get hockey for 3 years until they figure out it is a horrible idea. Then we are without again. No one has come up with a business plan that works. To say Vegas fans will pay an average of $60 a ticket, which by definition means half of them are priced above that, is ridiculous. People can't afford that here. And to market to the visiting team is just stupid. You can't tell me that when Florida or Carolina come out here for a Wednesday night game that their fans will come out. And to rely on the casinos giving away tickets is equally dumb. But hopefully I am wrong and it works, but I would rather of kept my minor league hockey. I love the ECHL product. For a 3rd of the price of an NHL game, I am not getting a 3rd of the product, which to me makes it a value.


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## JungleJON

Too bad the team could not find another place to play in Vegas. Hopefully something will get worked out, but from the article it looks like the owner might be looking to move/sell the franchise.
And I agree the ECHL is a GOOD product, like it a whole lot better than the NHL.


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## Maddog

SenorChifles said:


> Too bad the team could not find another place to play in Vegas. Hopefully something will get worked out, but from the article it looks like the owner might be looking to move/sell the franchise.
> And I agree the ECHL is a GOOD product, like it a whole lot better than the NHL.




Money wise I agree with you the ECHL is better. I'm sure there are many of us can attest to the high prices for tickets in the NHL. My last NHL game was in 2006 and we paid over $50 dollars per ticket for seats two rows from the top. I guess I can't complain too much. The ticket came with a coupon for a free hot dog.


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## Ginormousthumbs

11 seasons, two of those losing. Two trips to the Kelly Cup finals. Not too shabby. During the lockout, I spent that entire season at the Orleans arena. I had a lot of fun there. 
I think the change in ownership and the lack of an AHL affiliate really hurt this team.


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## Sports Enthusiast

People care about affiliates? Personally I see them as less than helpful. More take than give.


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## Hoodaha

SFTC Addict said:


> People care about affiliates? Personally I see them as less than helpful. More take than give.




Affiliates are good for a cap break. I believe that an AHL assigned player is only $550/week against the cap no matter how much they make. Some affiliates have handshake deals where the AHL club "assigns" a more expensive player that they never intend to have in the AHL, just for the purpose of giving the ECHL team a lower cap hit on a player that they wanted to sign.


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## Cyclones Rock

SFTC Addict said:


> People care about affiliates? Personally I see them as less than helpful. More take than give.




Try to get a good goalie at the ECHL level who's a free agent. Good luck.

Alaska had some success without affiliations in the past, but they were the exception not the rule.


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## Hoodaha

Cyclones Rock said:


> Try to get a good goalie at the ECHL level who's a free agent. Good luck.
> 
> Alaska had some success without affiliations in the past, but they were the exception not the rule.




That's a valid point. Most of the better goalies are assigned. Yeah, you can get saddled with a bad assigned goalie, but you're unlikely to have one of the better ones if you just sign an FA.


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## Off da post and in

Cyclones Rock said:


> *Try to get a good goalie at the ECHL level who's a free agent. Good luck.*
> 
> Alaska had some success without affiliations in the past, but they were the exception not the rule.




Um, your Cincinnati Cyclones had one last year with Joe Howe (10-3-2 with a 2.78 GA and a 91 SV%).


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## Hoodaha

Off da post and in said:


> Um, your Cincinnati Cyclones had one last year with Joe Howe (10-3-2 with a 2.78 GA and a 91 SV%).




Nobody said it was impossible, it's just hard to find one. Especially mid-season.


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## Off da post and in

Hoodaha said:


> Nobody said it was impossible, it's just hard to find one. Especially mid-season.




I didn't indicate whether it was easy or impossible.

However, I did find some irony in the fact a Cyclone fan made that comment when Cincinnati had two AHL affiliates pumping numerous goalies their way and the Clones still found Howe.


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## bhigo59

Cyclones Rock said:


> Try to get a good goalie at the ECHL level who's a free agent. Good luck.
> 
> Alaska had some success without affiliations in the past, but they were the exception not the rule.






Another goalie picked up during the year was Riley Gill by the Reading Royals during their Kelly Cup Championship year. All he did was carry them thru the rest of the year and capture that championship. He was also the MVP of the cup finals. I doubt the Royals would have won that championship without finding Riley during the year.


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## Off da post and in

bhigo59 said:


> Another goalie picked up during the year was Riley Gill by the Reading Royals during their Kelly Cup Championship year. All he did was carry them thru the rest of the year and capture that championship. He was also the MVP of the cup finals. I doubt the Royals would have won that championship without finding Riley during the year.




Very good point. An experienced and knowledgeable coach will find those kind of free agent goalies ( Gill and Howe), or skaters who will help get a team to the Kelly Cup.


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