# Evansville Lease Trouble



## mk80

I saw a post containing the link to this news article on Facebook. The Icemen are having trouble negotiating a lease for the Ford Center.

http://evansvilleicemen.com/news-stats/?article_id=49


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## mfrerkes

The Icemen had to make eleventh-hour negotiations back in 2011 when they first moved into the Ford Center. I think the unresolved issues from that hasty arrangement have finally come home to roost in this most recent attempt at negotiations.

From what I can remember back then, the city was dictating terms to Geary. As a result, he is losing money due largely to the lease arrangement. I would not be surprised if this is Evansville's final season in the ECHL. The city does not appear ready to compromise.


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## Gibbie42

I wouldn't make that leap just yet. The city has a lot at stake here. The IceMen are the major tenant, it would pretty much sit empty an additional 36 nights a year, plus the practice time. The city is playing like that money doesn't count but it certainly does. There's an offer coming today from the city that they say should meet the teams needs. I'm hoping the two sides won't be too far apart after that. This push to the media came because the city had been non-communicative. The city just finished major elections including the mayor and city council so they were probably waiting to do anything about the lease until after the election was decided. I'm hoping it resolves quickly.


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## Cyclones Rock

Here' a 15 minute interview with Geary:

http://www.tristatehomepage.com/new...eary-talks-icemen-possibly-leaving-evansville

From his vantage point, the city has been dragging its feet in the negotiations and he's going public to gain some leverage. Also, as mfrekes pointed out, Geary felt that the city dictated terms of the lease in a heavy-handed manner five years ago.

He claims that the team has the worst lease in the league at $650,000 in yearly rent and it receives no concessions revenue save $30,000 per year on booze sales. He said that the team has lost $2.4 million ($1.1 million the first year) in their 4 years. That comes to about $400,000 per year over the past 3 years. If he can get rent cut in half, then, based on his numbers, he'd have roughly a break even operation.

Geary did shut down his race track (Ellis Park) for a few days years ago in a dispute with horsemen over revenues and re-opened when he won. So, he does have a history of making good on a threat.

My guess is that everything gets worked out in a compromise situation. Geary wants his hockey team and the City of Evansville will look look pretty bad if they lost one of their two main tenants just 5 years after opening the arena. A larger operating deficit on the Ford Center would occur as well.


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## Gibbie42

How things are going depends on who you talk to. Mr. Geary is still projecting badness, others in management are feeling a little more encouraged. The city countered this week and apparently lawyers for both sides were holed up yesterday working on it. I go from being certain we're done to feeling positive, depending on the hour basically. I also keep saying that I paid for my seats for next season already, I'm going to go sit in them dammit.  We're all hoping for the best, but lots of us making road trip plans for the back half of the season, including the end of the season games at Allen, you know, just in case. :/


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## Cyclones Rock

Gibbie42 said:


> How things are going depends on who you talk to. Mr. Geary is still projecting badness, others in management are feeling a little more encouraged. The city countered this week and apparently lawyers for both sides were holed up yesterday working on it. I go from being certain we're done to feeling positive, depending on the hour basically. I also keep saying that I paid for my seats for next season already, I'm going to go sit in them dammit.  We're all hoping for the best, but lots of us making road trip plans for the back half of the season, including the end of the season games at Allen, you know, just in case. :/




Just a few thoughts:

1) Geary is playing PR hardball to gain the most leverage that he can. While the ECHL by-laws state that December 1 is a drop dead date, just remember that the CHL teams were admitted just a few days before the ECHL season began. The ECHL is not going to kick the Icemen out of the league because an arbitrary deadline isn't kept.

2) The City of Evansville probably need the Icemen more than Geary needs to have a hockey team. The Ford Center's deficit probably doubles (or more) without them. Geary, on the other hand, has a team which is losing money. 

3) The differences in each party's position isn't that huge. It can be settled.

4) Most important. The Cyclones need the Iceman. Short travel time and easy wins


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## Gibbie42

Yea, I know all the logic. The city really does need the IceMen. City council already cut the Ford Center budget in a last minute budget frenzy, it goes deeper in trouble without the IceMen income. I also know that the league let the Las Vegas Wranglers float for several months while they tried to find a solution. I don't think the ECHL is just going to up and say "sucks to be you" if things aren't all neatly tied up yet. I also know that Geary is not letting that be known publicly because he needs the leverage. It's a chess match, we're watching it play out. It's still hard not to worry just a tad. I don't even want to think about not having them next year.


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## Cyclones Rock

If it weren't for the Icemen last year, we would have been as bad as the Icemen I think we were about at 35% winning percentage in our games outside of Evansville.

Can't blame you for being worried, but I really can't see the Icemen leaving under any realistic scenario. 

I've been to 2 or 3 games at the Ford Center. It's a perfect facility for AA hockey. Your fans are very friendly as well.

If worse comes to worse, you can always become a Komets fan


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## Sports Enthusiast

Gibbie42 said:


> Yea, I know all the logic. The city really does need the IceMen. City council already cut the Ford Center budget in a last minute budget frenzy, it goes deeper in trouble without the IceMen income. I also know that the league let the Las Vegas Wranglers float for several months while they tried to find a solution. I don't think the ECHL is just going to up and say "sucks to be you" if things aren't all neatly tied up yet. I also know that Geary is not letting that be known publicly because he needs the leverage. It's a chess match, we're watching it play out. It's still hard not to worry just a tad. I don't even want to think about not having them next year.




Didn't Vegas tentatively have a plan in place to play elsewhere? I believe the roof of a hotel or something bizarre like that.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Interesting timing. They have the worst team in the league so I can imagine attendance stinks. So I van see how they are losing money anyway. Even rich people will only take so many losses before they give up. Leases were made to be broken and if he wants to he could easily relocate the tram so in a way he dictates the terms because he holds the "key" to the team being in that city. 

As for it hurting the arena...you could say that about any arena without a major tenant however if I had to guess especially amongst AHL and ECHL teams that most of the arenas easily lose money every year. They aren't exactly money makers to run. Its a costly business.


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## 210

Sports Enthusiast said:


> Interesting timing. *They have the worst team in the league so I can imagine attendance stinks*. So I van see how they are losing money anyway. Even rich people will only take so many losses before they give up. Leases were made to be broken and if he wants to he could easily relocate the tram so in a way he dictates the terms because he holds the "key" to the team being in that city.
> 
> As for it hurting the arena...you could say that about any arena without a major tenant however if I had to guess especially amongst AHL and ECHL teams that most of the arenas easily lose money every year. They aren't exactly money makers to run. Its a costly business.






4819 per, 7th in the ECHL...last season they were 9th, the season prior they were fifth. All information that took less time to look up than you took to make your post.


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## Gibbie42

And in the third smallest market in the ECHL. Attendance isn't a huge issue right now. The team was dismal last year. The record isn't great so far this but they are better than their record. It's entertaining even in the losses, so the attendance will pickup again. Especially as we get into December and January.


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## SemireliableSource

210 said:


> 4819 per, 7th in the ECHL...last season they were 9th, the season prior they were fifth. All information that took less time to look up than you took to make your post.




Why do research when assumptions are so fun?


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## CrazyEddie20

Gibbie42 said:


> Attendance isn't a huge issue right now. The team was dismal last year. The record isn't great so far this but they are better than their record. It's entertaining even in the losses, so the attendance will pickup again. Especially as we get into December and January.




Wrong.

If the team is losing money, attendance is an issue - period. Regardless of how high they rank in the league or before what percent of capacity they're playing. Empty seats represent lost revenue.


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## Gibbie42

Attendance is only one piece of the money equation. Controlling costs is equally important. Costs like leases, which is the big one right now.


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## CrazyEddie20

Gibbie42 said:


> Attendance is only one piece of the money equation. Controlling costs is equally important. Costs like leases, which is the big one right now.




Well, they can't reign in the costs resultant from their poorly-negotiated lease agreement right now without modifying the lease contract. They CAN, however, sell more tickets and improve their revenue in the short term and cut the losses a tad.


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## Gibbie42

They're not trying to modify the lease, they're renewing it. It ends at the conclusion of the 2015/16 season. That's why they're trying to get more favorable lease terms. It will reduce operating costs. In addition to everything else they're doing.


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## JimB

As a comparison, here's a link describing the terms of a lease extension for Norfolk's ECHL team.

http://www.pilotonline.com/sports/h...cle_944285bf-1ccc-5b5b-b18e-7fc961a19a98.html

"The Admirals will pay $1 per year in rent to the city, and the city will receive â€œadmissions taxâ€ and food and beverage commissions. In the 2015 fiscal year, that amounted to $172,241 and $169,609, respectively"


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## Sports Enthusiast

210 said:


> 4819 per, 7th in the ECHL...last season they were 9th, the season prior they were fifth. All information that took less time to look up than you took to make your post.




Where? I wasn't gunna waste the time going through every box score game sheet.


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## Sports Enthusiast

FrancoRussianAlaskan said:


> Why do research when assumptions are so fun?




[MOD] Usually last place teams draw like ****. Its not like there's a lot out there dedicated to minor league sports attendance. The site doesn't really focus on it.


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## offkilter

Sports Enthusiast said:


> Where? I wasn't gunna waste the time going through every box score game sheet.




Go to echl.com hover the cursor on the stats tab and on the drop down menu there will be a link to click on for attendance.

If you are using mobile just click on the menu tab in the upper right corner and scroll down to the attendance link under the stats header.

Got it? Maybe I need to upload a how to video for you to youtube? You do know what youtube is right? How streaming video works?

Oh the hell with it here's the links.

standard website
http://echl.com/stats/schedule.php?view=attendance

mobile
http://www.echl.com/mobile/schedule.php?view=attendance&season_id=&bblh=mSafari


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## 210

Sports Enthusiast said:


> Where? I wasn't gunna waste the time going through every box score game sheet.




Seriously dude? Three clicks.

ECHL.com > Stats > Attendance


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## Sports Enthusiast

offkilter said:


> Go to echl.com hover the cursor on the stats tab and on the drop down menu there will be a link to click on for attendance.
> 
> If you are using mobile just click on the menu tab in the upper right corner and scroll down to the attendance link under the stats header.
> 
> Got it? Maybe I need to upload a how to video for you to youtube? You do know what youtube is right? How streaming video works?
> 
> Oh the hell with it here's the links.
> 
> standard website
> http://echl.com/stats/schedule.php?view=attendance
> 
> mobile
> http://www.echl.com/mobile/schedule.php?view=attendance&season_id=&bblh=mSafari




I am using my phone so that is a part of it I suppose.

No need for the crack on YouTube. Just because someone is lazy and doesn't know all the intereorkings of how each site is on mobile doesn't mean they aren't educated. Some sites are awful on mobile and haven't adapted. That is one thing I hate about this site. You can throw a shot like that but if I throw one back the power hungry mods will take their overrated job too seriously and edit the post or something lame like that and probably leave yours totally be.


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## Sports Enthusiast

210 said:


> Seriously dude? Three clicks.
> 
> ECHL.com > Stats > Attendance




Not on the app...


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## mfrerkes

CrazyEddie20 said:


> Well, they can't reign in the costs resultant from their poorly-negotiated lease agreement right now without modifying the lease contract. They CAN, however, sell more tickets and improve their revenue in the short term and cut the losses a tad.




I think the hockey market in Evansville has been effectively tapped by Geary. There probably isn't much more potential room to grow attendance numbers/ticket sales for the Icemen. Obviously, the on-ice product this season is not very good, but for a market the size of Evansville, their turnout is very good regardless of W-L stats.

This ultimately comes down to which party is willing to lose money so Evansville can have hockey. If Geary is expected to eat a lion's share of the cost, then he may just throw in the towel. If the city is expected to bear a greater burden (via lease "giveaways" to the Icemen), local politicians may face the wrath of voters who don't think government's role is to subsidize minor league sports teams.

Both parties will have to compromise, which means both will likely still lose money on this venture. As we know all too well, minor league hockey is not an industry that consistently -- or even casually -- turns profits.


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## 210

Sports Enthusiast said:


> Not on the app...




You should change your name here to "Mister Excuses".


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## Frank Booth

According to his other posts, he's not stupid or poorly educated, he's just lazy. I'll let everyone else draw their own conclusions.


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## Gibbie42

mfrerkes said:


> I think the hockey market in Evansville has been effectively tapped by Geary. There probably isn't much more potential room to grow attendance numbers/ticket sales for the Icemen. Obviously, the on-ice product this season is not very good, but for a market the size of Evansville, their turnout is very good regardless of W-L stats.
> 
> This ultimately comes down to which party is willing to lose money so Evansville can have hockey. If Geary is expected to eat a lion's share of the cost, then he may just throw in the towel. If the city is expected to bear a greater burden (via lease "giveaways" to the Icemen), local politicians may face the wrath of voters who don't think government's role is to subsidize minor league sports teams.
> 
> Both parties will have to compromise, which means both will likely still lose money on this venture. As we know all too well, minor league hockey is not an industry that consistently -- or even casually -- turns profits.




There is room for some growth in the attendance, but I think that 5-6k per game is reasonable for this area. As for the on ice product, it's much improved over last year. It's not shown up on the stat sheet yet, but it will. Attendance numbers always go up as winter drags on, combine that with a win streak in Jan-Feb and we'll see a decent boost.

The political atmosphere is exactly why this has gotten so perilously close to the league deadline. The mayor just faced reelection as did city council. Relations between the mayor's office and the last city council were not good. There were simply no win scenarios had he dealt with the lease before the election. 

I want to believe that the city is invested in keeping the IceMen here. The mayor has been actively working on a redevelopment program for the area. There's a new hotel behind the Ford Center (finally) underway. Ground has been broken for a new medical school downtown that will be built by IU. Lots of new business and restaurants going into downtown. And just this morning, the Tropicana announced that it is investing over $50 million dollars to move open a new land based casino (Indiana approved land based casinos this session). They will remove the current river boat, help fund the moving of the city's LST to that location and provide $25 million to the city for development. Surely all this will make the mayor's office a little more amenable to trim the lease a bit.


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## Sports Enthusiast

210 said:


> You should change your name here to "Mister Excuses".




Its not an excuse Mr. Albany, its the truth. I'm willing to bet you don't have the app.

You should change you're name to "Mister ******"


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## mfrerkes

Gibbie42 said:


> Surely all this will make the mayor's office a little more amenable to trim the lease a bit.




The big unknown in all of this is exactly how much money Geary is *honestly* losing. It could be that Geary is trumping up the losses to garner public sympathy that he can quickly redirect against the folks occupying city hall. It's an effective emotional appeal, but all too often, emotional appeals are based on inflated claims. If Geary's financial losses aren't that bad, he might be able to get the city to meet him halfway on certain givebacks in a new lease.

However, if Geary is being totally honest about the size and scope of his operating deficit, I don't think the city would be willing to take on half (or even 20%) of such a large problem. There simply wouldn't be enough fat to trim from the lease to put the Icemen back in a tenable spot. I don't know much about local Evansville politics, but it seems like an environment which is not hospitable to propping up a minor league sports team with serious cash flow issues.

My personal opinion is that Geary might be exaggerating the losses so he can have a stronger hand in any potential negotiations. He's certainly taking it on the chin with his current lease. Whether this attempt at rallying the public to his side can be effective, however, is far from certain...especially with all the undisclosed financial variables.


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## 210

Sports Enthusiast said:


> Its not an excuse Mr. Albany, its the truth. I'm willing to bet you don't have the app.
> 
> You should change you're name to "Mister ******"




"Mr. Albany?". It says where I'm from right under my avatar (and, ironically enough, _in_ my avatar) and it's not Albany.

And who cares if I have the app or not? Seriously. It's not like it does you any good.


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## Speed

210 said:


> "Mr. Albany?". It says where I'm from right under my avatar (and, ironically enough, _in_ my avatar) and it's not Albany.




Must not show "in the app".  Doesn't matter - you're wrong anyway - just ask him.


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## Gibbie42

Some movement tonight. The two sides are talking and are scheduled to sit down together next week. Some dates have been sent to the ECHL and the mysterious "deadline" has been extended until the 15th. Geary is still saying there's some big sticking points, but it looks like there's some progress anyway.


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## mfrerkes

Gibbie42 said:


> Geary is still saying there's some big sticking points, but it looks like there's some progress anyway.




I guess it will all depend on just how big those sticking points are, and whether Geary will graciously accept the crumbs being thrown his way. The city council doesn't seem to be terribly interested in making him happy.


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## JDogindy

It sucks that the Indy Fuel hype the Komets as our rivals and that the Icemen are just the other team. I was hoping both teams would get prominence because Indiana has the most ECHL teams in the league.


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## mk80

I'm not too familiar with the situation other than reading the article and posting the thread. But it is my guess the article is filled with some hype to gain leverage for the owner in negotiations. 

Obviously Minor League sports is a tough business no matter the sport. So I'd imagine his expenses are high same as other owners. But I don't think they're as substantial as he claims, mostly due to the nature of the article.


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## mfrerkes

mk80 said:


> I'm not too familiar with the situation other than reading the article and posting the thread. But it is my guess the article is filled with some hype to gain leverage for the owner in negotiations.




That's my best guess as well. The Icemen are drawing decent numbers for AA hockey. They shouldn't be too deeply in the red, even with a lease that is less than ideal. Geary probably sees some potential dollar signs, and is (like any business owner) looking for ways to reduce overhead. Renegotiating a lease is the best option for reducing his operating costs.

The big question is whether Evansville's elected officials are going to bite. I suspect they may give a little on some things, but will ultimately put their interests ahead of everything else. That's what politicians -- at any level -- always do.

The other big question is whether Geary will throw a tantrum if he doesn't get what he wants. Team owners are fairly notorious for doing such things.


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## Sports Enthusiast

210 said:


> "Mr. Albany?". It says where I'm from right under my avatar (and, ironically enough, _in_ my avatar) and it's not Albany.
> 
> And who cares if I have the app or not? Seriously. It's not like it does you any good.




I care. If you did you would know that the feature of the site you're speaking of isn't on it.


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## 210

Sports Enthusiast said:


> I care. If you did you would know that the feature of the site you're speaking of isn't on it.




What is or is not on the app is irrelevant. You're spouting incorrect information. Try being right once.


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## JeffNYI

mfrerkes said:


> That's my best guess as well. The Icemen are drawing decent numbers for AA hockey. They shouldn't be too deeply in the red, even with a lease that is less than ideal. Geary probably sees some potential dollar signs, and is (like any business owner) looking for ways to reduce overhead. Renegotiating a lease is the best option for reducing his operating costs.
> 
> The big question is whether Evansville's elected officials are going to bite. I suspect they may give a little on some things, but will ultimately put their interests ahead of everything else. That's what politicians -- at any level -- always do.
> 
> The other big question is whether Geary will throw a tantrum if he doesn't get what he wants. Team owners are fairly notorious for doing such things.




One thing to note is that Geary isn't making it up, though.. his lease genuinely sucks..


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## CrazyEddie20

JeffNYI said:


> One thing to note is that Geary isn't making it up, though.. his lease genuinely sucks..




He still negotiated and signed it. Who's fault is that?


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## JeffNYI

CrazyEddie20 said:


> He still negotiated and signed it. Who's fault is that?




The same person who honored it. And the same person who is no longer under the gun to sign a new lease. Also the same person who has been trying to get a better lease.


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## Sports Enthusiast

210 said:


> What is or is not on the app is irrelevant. You're spouting incorrect information. Try being right once.




Being right is boring. Try not being an ass for once, then maybe I'll try...


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## 210

Sports Enthusiast said:


> Being right is boring. Try not being an ass for once, then maybe I'll try...




I love how you were wrong and are trying to play the victim. Classic internet tactic.

BTW, out of boredom I decided to look up the ECHL attendance info from my phone...it was shockingly easy. It's available in about four clicks on the ECHL's mobile site.


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## CrazyEddie20

Back on topic here - Geary negotiated and signed a bad lease. It expires soon. He says if he doesn't get better lease terms, the IceMen will freeze operations. 

I've got my money on Evansville having an empty arena next year.


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## BigMac1212

I could make a Horatio Crane joke, but I might get rotten produce thrown at me...


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## Cyclones Rock

CrazyEddie20 said:


> Back on topic here - Geary negotiated and signed a bad lease. It expires soon. He says if he doesn't get better lease terms, the IceMen will freeze operations.
> 
> I've got my money on Evansville having an empty arena next year.




You'll lose your money.


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## JDogindy

CrazyEddie20 said:


> Back on topic here - Geary negotiated and signed a bad lease. It expires soon. He says if he doesn't get better lease terms, the IceMen will freeze operations.
> 
> I've got my money on Evansville having an empty arena next year.




Not gonna happen; Evansville needs the team. They don't have a lot going for them in terms of anything close to a national perspective, and they even wound up in the book 101 Places Not to See Before You Die.

I'm not trying to sell Evansville short, but while minor league sports are fickle, you don't want to be known as the guy who lost a team, because local teams are a source of pride.

And I really like the idea of Indiana being the ECHL stronghold right now.


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## mfrerkes

CrazyEddie20 said:


> Back on topic here - Geary negotiated and signed a bad lease. It expires soon. He says if he doesn't get better lease terms, the IceMen will freeze operations.
> 
> I've got my money on Evansville having an empty arena next year.




It wouldn't be totally surprising. That said, I think Geary is trying to play hardball right now and might be willing to settle for much less if push comes to shove. The city is holding most of the cards (i.e. they have the venue) so Geary's bargaining position isn't the strongest.

I really think he was attempting a form of emotional blackmail by getting fans riled up at the prospect of no hockey in Evansville. It's not a bad strategy. Whether the politicians will be persuaded by the manuever, however, is an entirely different matter. The city has considerable interests at stake, but not nearly as much as Geary. That's why I think Geary is the most likely of the two parties to cave in during negotiations.


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## Gibbie42

Actually I think the team's position is a lot stronger than it was 5 years ago. Yea the city holds the venue but they also don't want to see it sit empty for 36 extra days a year. Five years ago it was a different story, they didn't really know if the IceMen would succeed or not. They played hard ball and Geary really had no balls to bargain with. Now the IceMen are successful, entrenched in the community and it would be a bit hit to the city to lose them. 

Heard encouraging things tonight. All parties met face to face last week and apparently have another meeting scheduled for this. Sounds like it's coming together. I've still got the season finale in Allen penciled in to travel to, just in case. And that says something, that I'd go to Texas to see this team, I hate Texas!


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## Sports Enthusiast

Not hard to say. 5 years ago they were playing in arena that had zero business hosting a AA hockey team.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Cyclones Rock said:


> You'll lose your money.




Do tell why you think that. What do you have to base that on?


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## Sports Enthusiast

210 said:


> I love how you were wrong and are trying to play the victim. Classic internet tactic.
> 
> BTW, out of boredom I decided to look up the ECHL attendance info from my phone...it was shockingly easy. It's available in about four clicks on the ECHL's mobile site.




Site and app are two different things. There's actually an ECHL app. IE something you have to install.


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## mfrerkes

Gibbie42 said:


> Actually I think the team's position is a lot stronger than it was 5 years ago. Yea the city holds the venue but they also don't want to see it sit empty for 36 extra days a year. Five years ago it was a different story, they didn't really know if the IceMen would succeed or not. They played hard ball and Geary really had no balls to bargain with. Now the IceMen are successful, entrenched in the community and it would be a bit hit to the city to lose them.




Yet, the city appears to have no sense of urgency in getting a deal signed right now. There's no doubt the Icemen have been a huge success in terms of public support. There's also no doubt the Ford Center would be hard-pressed to fill the 36 dates vacated by a departing hockey team. Despite those important facts, Evansville's elected officials seem content to let Geary's demands wither on the vine. It's quite peculiar given the situation, and leads me to believe they're intent on calling his bluff.


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## mfrerkes

Sports Enthusiast said:


> Not hard to say. 5 years ago they were playing in arena that had zero business hosting a AA hockey team.




That fact had much more to do with the IHL being a total joke on its last leg, and has practically nothing to do with the current impasse between the city and Ron Geary. The Icemen are averaging over 4000 per game with a team that is far below the .500 mark. It's proof the organization has built a loyal following despite their humble beginnings at Swonder Ice Arena...and their current struggles with notching a victory.

But, the city doesn't really seem to care about all that.


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## Gibbie42

Actually just because it's out of the public eye doesn't mean the city is not responding. There's been a good deal of movement since the team went public. The city gave their proposal, the lawyers have been locked away. Both sides met, including the mayor himself, this week, they're meeting again next week. The Ford Center gave the team dates to send to the league, the league moved this "deadline" back to the 15th. I believe the entire reason the city was quiet until this point was they were waiting for the election to be over. That and it's kind of the way things work in Evansville. But now there's movement. Which is why I say I think no news is good news. Because if it were going badly, I think Geary would be all over the news again.


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## mfrerkes

Gibbie42 said:


> Because if it were going badly, I think Geary would be all over the news again.




If the losses were as bad as Geary originally claimed, it's difficult to envision how the city would be willing to surrender hundreds of thousands (if not millions) from their bottom line to save a hockey team. Now, if the actual deficit was a couple hundred thousand dollars, that might be manageable enough to split between the two parties. That's what seems to be the big unknown in all of this.

Is Geary just using hollow threats to negotiate a marginally better lease so he can turn a modest profit...or is he genuinely in deep financial doo-doo, and can only continue if the city makes massive financial concessions on the lease?


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## Gibbie42

That's' really the 64k dollar question isn't it? No one really knows what the numbers are. He claimed on air that he lost 1.1 million the first year, and about 400k each additional. If that's accurate or not, only he knows. His pockets are plenty deep, but there's a limit to how much he's willing to actually spend out of them. And again, he's the only one who knows what that limit is.


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## Gibbie42

Short article in today's paper: http://www.courierpress.com/news/lo...e8-d63e-7437-e053-0100007f29b3-361334741.html

(I don't think there's a paywall anymore)

In brief the two sides are talking and making progress, more talks to come, both sides making positive noises. Not breathing just yet, but things feel a bit better. Add that to a win on the road last night in Toledo (and I don't think we've *ever* beaten the Walleye in Toledo before) and things are feeling just a tad happier in IceMen land today.


----------



## mfrerkes

Gibbie42 said:


> In brief the two sides are talking and making progress, more talks to come, both sides making positive noises. Not breathing just yet, but things feel a bit better. Add that to a win on the road last night in Toledo)




That article certainly sounds promising, but I guess until there's ink on a contract, anything can (or cannot) happen. While I think the city would be stupid to let the Icemen walk, I don't get the feeling they're willing to help subsidize the team's operation through lower rent charges. Geary should be happy to get whatever he can from them.


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## Gibbie42

The last we heard from the city about the proposal they were wiling to significantly reduce the rent but also wanted to cut the teams share of alcohol and suite revenue. Neither side has said anything since then. It will be really interesting to see what comes out at the end.


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## mfrerkes

Gibbie42 said:


> The last we heard from the city about the proposal they were wiling to significantly reduce the rent but also wanted to cut the teams share of alcohol and suite revenue.




That doesn't seem to make much sense. Reducing the rent significantly means very little if they're also taking away significant revenue that the team currently receives from other sources.


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## JeffNYI

Gibbie42 said:


> That's' really the 64k dollar question isn't it? No one really knows what the numbers are.




Many key financial figures are required to be shared with the league and even the other teams get enough info to put the picture together.. The league would never "out" an owner for lying, but the truth is that there are plenty of people who have enough information that there is some risk to being dishonest..



> He claimed on air that he lost 1.1 million the first year, and about 400k each additional. If that's accurate or not, only he knows. His pockets are plenty deep, but there's a limit to how much he's willing to actually spend out of them. And again, he's the only one who knows what that limit is.




I would bet you less than half the teams turn a profit.. losing $400k is completely believable..


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## StatesideSensFan

I really hope E'ville keeps the Icemen, I loved the Ford Center when i was there to watch maybe the worst sporting event I have ever witnessed first hand. The hotel opening up nearby in a few years would also like the business that the Icemen bring. Tie that in with the relocation of the casino and hopefully downtown E'ville starts seeing that renaissance that the last few administrations have been talking about.


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## toledo109

The lease deadline once again has been extended to this time January 6 of next year. Will be the final deadline also. Should be interesting to watch this unfold.


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## mfrerkes

toledo109 said:


> The lease deadline once again has been extended to this time January 6 of next year. Will be the final deadline also. Should be interesting to watch this unfold.




I really don't understand why this latest extension is necessary. Either the parties have a deal, or they don't. How long does something have to be under the gun before it is no longer a viable bargaining situation? They've had *weeks* to trade offers. If they're still too far apart after all this time, it makes you wonder how fruitful additional negotiations would be from this point forward.


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## Gibbie42

If progress wasn't being made, they wouldn't be continuing. Remember, this is not just business, it's politics. Things don't always move quickly. Talked to Ron Geary last night and he actually sounded more positive than before. He says they've been coming up with some creative ideas to bridge the gap. Like I said, if he didn't see progress he wouldn't continue. They are distressed at some of the info the city leaked. As I suspected the "1k a game in rent" wasn't at all what the city wanted the public to think it was and would actually raise overall costs. They're not talking at all about what's currently on the table. Which is as it should be.


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## toledo109

At the same time, something keeps them apart or we would be talking how Evansville was saved. Hopefully a happy new year in Evansville in early January.


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## mfrerkes

Gibbie42 said:


> Remember, this is not just business, it's politics. Things don't always move quickly.




There are many other teams in the ECHL who are playing in publicly-funded venues. I don't see any of those teams needing special extensions from the league and prolonged deliberations by city officials to get a lease signed.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Gibbie42 said:


> If progress wasn't being made, they wouldn't be continuing. Remember, this is not just business, it's politics. Things don't always move quickly. Talked to Ron Geary last night and he actually sounded more positive than before. He says they've been coming up with some creative ideas to bridge the gap. Like I said, if he didn't see progress he wouldn't continue. They are distressed at some of the info the city leaked. As I suspected the "1k a game in rent" wasn't at all what the city wanted the public to think it was and would actually raise overall costs. They're not talking at all about what's currently on the table. Which is as it should be.




Well if we're saying its politics we might as well leave that out. Things don't move quickly....they don't move at all. See this country and sorry ass elections. All politics is, is an 8 letter word for organized crime. Its all who can get the best and for what. These politicians don't care about you...just your vote. Its all a means to an end and about money and the sheep are their pawns. That's why they take off the boxing gloves and old men argue like 12 year olds on the tube. I highly doubt Geary or the otherwise care about you the fans. They care about them...but they are sly enough to know at the end of the day they need their village idiots to get their monies by people attending the games and what not. I mean he has some leverage here. It's not like little Evansville, Indiana is the only place Geary has to have his hockey team. He could easily relocate it elsewhere if he doesn't get what he wants.


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## mfrerkes

I'm beginning to wonder if all this news about no lease in Evansville is affecting turnout. Last night, the Icemen drew just 2916 for their game against Indy. That was the second-lowest figure of the night (Kalamazoo had the smallest crowd) and is not very good turnout for an in-state rival on a Friday night. In past seasons, Evansville would draw much better support under similar circumstances.

Of course, the Icemen are languishing in the standings. They've surrendered more goals than any other team in their division. Perhaps the fans are just staying away because the on-ice product isn't worth watching, regardless of lease situation.


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## Gibbie42

I think it's kind of the perfect storm on attendance. The slow start, the bad press from the lease and the damn weather has been in the 70, who thinks hockey then? But the team has come together we've won four out of the last six, including last night. We're a mere 2 points out of play off contention. The weather has turned cold and there's been an uptick tv media coverage. There's a buzz starting up again. Attendance always picks up in January so hopefully it will be back to normal soon. It's just a waiting game at this point.


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## Captain Crash

Based on what I'm seeing, they'll probably get the lease resolved. That's my hunch anyhow. But even if things really go south and the Icemen leave in their current form, one of the interesting things about Evansville is that it's reasonably in the footprint of many other leagues. Surely if the market opened up, the nice venue and decent attendance numbers would lure in someone to give it a go in a different league. The SPHL, USHL, and NAHL would likely all take a look. Probably even the FHL, but I wouldn't wish that on the fans there.


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## toledo109

I have always found the ECHL markets to be strange. You have teams in Elmira, Atalanta or even West Virginia that support teams even with it not being a hockey market. Yes, hockey isn't as big in Indiana compared to the close markets of Detroit or Chicago but the Komets have always been supported well. Let's keep in mind Evansville is the third-largest city in Indiana which should be staying something.


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## mfrerkes

Captain Crash said:


> Based on what I'm seeing, they'll probably get the lease resolved. That's my hunch anyhow.




That's where I'm leaning as well, but the length to which this process continues to run has me wondering what the real hold-up might be. Is Geary just trying to play chicken with the city? Is he hoping they'll blink first? Or, is the city genuinely unconcerned with keeping the Icemen happy?

My hunch is that Geary will cave to whatever final offer the city gives him. I still think he was using the specter of his team's departure as a hollow threat to extract maximum concessions from the city. I also get the hunch that city officials won't be coerced into giving him a better deal.

Geary may have overplayed his hand, and will probably settle for much less if/when the final deal is signed.


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## Cyclones Rock

mfrerkes said:


> That's where I'm leaning as well, but the length to which this process continues to run has me wondering what the real hold-up might be. Is Geary just trying to play chicken with the city? Is he hoping they'll blink first? Or, is the city genuinely unconcerned with keeping the Icemen happy?
> 
> My hunch is that Geary will cave to whatever final offer the city gives him. I still think he was using the specter of his team's departure as a hollow threat to extract maximum concessions from the city. I also get the hunch that city officials won't be coerced into giving him a better deal.
> 
> Geary may have overplayed his hand, and will probably settle for much less if/when the final deal is signed.




Why is it a "hollow threat"? 

Geary has some wealth-how much, I don't know. I'd guess quite a bit. He's owned a hockey team for a few years. Got his t shirt. If he shuts it down, he loses nothing financially. He's already had a number of years experiencing whatever one experiences from owning a minor league hockey team. The City, on the other hand, has a brand new facility which will go completely underutilized should Geary close shop.

I think the bargaining position strength tilts considerably toward Geary. He doesn't really need a hockey team which might break even with a favorable lease. The City will experience a much wider deficit on the Ford Center, and, perhaps, considerable public wrath, should their new facility lose even more money than it currently does and becomes a White Elephant just a few years after opening should the Icemen cease operations. 

Geary played hardball with the horsemen at his horse racing facility across the river in Henderson KY several years ago when they wanted an absurdly high portion of track revenues. He closed the track and the horsemen backed down within a week. He had a lot of negotiating experience as the long term CEO of a substantial health care company. I'd guess that he's a more saavy negotiator than anyone he'd be facing across the table who's a city bureaucrat in a relative backwater like Evansville.

$16,000-18,000 per game in rent is too steep for an ECHL team. In real paid attendance, that probably works out to about $5 per head. That's not going to fly long term unless the ownership is willing to absorb significant losses. Geary, apparently, is unwilling to do so.

We'll see. I hope it works out for the Evansville fans. The Ford Center is a wonderful facility-I've been there 3 times-and it would be a shame if it loses 40 plus dates per year so early in its existence. The Icemen have a very enthusiastic fan base who don't deserve to have their team yanked from them.

Count me in the surprised category if a compromise isn't reached. I'll guess that Geary almost halves his rent at the end of the day.


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## mfrerkes

Cyclones Rock said:


> Count me in the surprised category if a compromise isn't reached. I'll guess that Geary almost halves his rent at the end of the day.




Reducing the rent is one thing, but if the city is demanding a bigger share of ancillary revenue streams (i.e. box suites) then such a compromise becomes meaningless. Gibbie had alluded to this possibility in an earlier post. The city is willing to lower his rent, but they'll recoup those dollars by taking other perks that currently go into Geary's pocket.

There's no doubt Geary is watching every penny and has been ready to play hardball. After all, this is a man who had players living in his race track's horse barn back when the Icemen were an AAHL franchise. Geary has a history of cutting corners and stomping his feet to get what he wants.

Problem is, the city seems to have some deep financial issues of their own regarding operational losses from the Ford Center and servicing the debt created by building such a large arena in the first place. How much additional red ink are they willing to take on just to keep Geary happy? My guess is not very much.

So, Geary will probably have to settle for crumbs, especially if the city decides that lower rent also means they're entitled to a bigger share of the other revenue streams.


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## Sports Enthusiast

mfrerkes said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if all this news about no lease in Evansville is affecting turnout. Last night, the Icemen drew just 2916 for their game against Indy. That was the second-lowest figure of the night (Kalamazoo had the smallest crowd) and is not very good turnout for an in-state rival on a Friday night. In past seasons, Evansville would draw much better support under similar circumstances.
> 
> Of course, the Icemen are languishing in the standings. They've surrendered more goals than any other team in their division. Perhaps the fans are just staying away because the on-ice product isn't worth watching, regardless of lease situation.




It's not shocking to me. Bad team, bad press/situation. I saw it first hand in Elmira with the Afr saga and foreclosure. That team actually won the regular season in the Eastern Conference. Attendance was awful. I couldn't blame people for not showing up when the future is in limbo. Its different then the Rams or Chargers possibly going to LA in the NFL. You don't know if your team has a future in town so why invest money of doubt not knowing what happens. Atleast for the Rams and Chargers its pretty much the highest bidder and who the league wants to move. Both teams though do have their leases expiring so the fans are aware that leaving town is easy and up to the league and has nothing to do with their support factor.


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## mfrerkes

Sports Enthusiast said:


> It's not shocking to me. Bad team, bad press/situation.





That may certainly factor into it, but Evansville seemed to be on a declining trajectory which predates this season. Their 2014-15 attendance average was 4971. That was after two consecutive seasons of drawing around 5400 per game.

They're currently below 4000 per game, and while that number should rise by several hundred before season's end, it's still likely they'll finish 5-10% lower than last year. The "lack of a lease" news has only been in the press for a month. As discouraging as it may be, I doubt the situation is responsible for a majority of their attendance drop.

Other factors, such as the arena novelty aspect and the team's poor on-ice performance, seem to be fueling this downturn more than anything else.


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## Gibbie42

Hearing that both sides are meeting again today. Also hearing that Geary is being really upbeat. Hopefully that's a good sign. 

In Ford Center weirdness though, we have this:
New year to bring new security measures at Ford Center, Victory Theatre


> VenuWorks announced Friday that it will step up security for all major events at the Ford Center and Victory Theatre in Downtown Evansville in 2016.
> 
> The new security measures will begin Jan. 14 and will include walk-through metal detectors at all entrance doors, said Scott Schoenike, Ford Center executive director.




Also in the article was an emphasis for enforcing current policy, including no noisemakers. That's actually been a policy since year two, but the IceMen specifically asked for an exemption for cowbells and team giveaways. Cowbells have been an IceMen staple since the beginning and the booster club's main fundraiser. We'll see. 

In another development, concession prices took a big midseason jump. They'd already gone up at the beginning of the season, now they took another leap. Beer in the bar went from 6.75 to 8.00 (not sure what they are at the carts or concesssions). Burgers went from 8 to 10 for a plain burger and 12 for a basket. Popcorn even went up 50 cents. It's like the city is actively trying to kill the Ford Center. It's pretty well a given that the IceMen's alcohol cut is gone with a new lease, so I for one won't feel any obligation to drink 8 dollar beers at the game.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Lol. Wow. As I've seen before you can't expect people to pay more on things for a "bad" product. Maybe if the team was really good it would all go under wraps but raising prices when you really don't have the ball in your court is a bad idea. I mean the team isn't good its not like this is a first place must see team.


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## Gibbie42

The team doesn't control concession prices. VenueWorks does. Just to clear that up.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Sure...but either way that won't help food sales. Whoever is behind that idea failed business 101


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## mfrerkes

Gibbie42 said:


> The team doesn't control concession prices. VenueWorks does. Just to clear that up.




If a theoretical new lease agreement includes lower rent per game, but zilch from alcohol/concession revenue, isn't the arena just robbing Peter to pay Paul? I'm trying to figure out how cheaper rent helps Geary balance the books, if at the same time, the city is taking thousands every game that originally went to the team.

Additionally, if Evansville hockey fans protest the new lease by not drinking $8 beers, the city will lose that revenue...which means they'll have to eventually raise Geary's rent to make up the difference. And so, the game of Whack-A-Mole will continue.

It doesn't seem like there's a real effort on either side to close the obvious revenue gaps. Instead, they're playing a shell game with everything -- shifting it from one side to the other, without tackling the fundamental issue driving this conflict.


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## JDogindy

Gibbie42 said:


> The team doesn't control concession prices. VenueWorks does. Just to clear that up.




True, but still... it has to suck to spend $8 on a beer and $10 on a burger. And if few people pay for that, then the money has to come from elsewhere.

I do hope the Icemen stay because Evansville should have the team and the Ford Center is a place where they can make the most money in the city.


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## mfrerkes

JDogindy said:


> True, but still... it has to suck to spend $8 on a beer and $10 on a burger.




It's almost criminal how some of this stuff is priced.

Even worse, these cities build huge arenas under the premise that it will attract events so residents can enjoy a better quality of life. Yet, these same cities give contracts to greedy concession companies that absolutely ruin the fun of attending an event by charging $10 for a burger. Where's the quality of life if you're pricing an event out of the budget of most working-class families?

These concession companies have no shame, and city governments that award such contracts are even worse.


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## mfrerkes

All signs point to this being the last season for the Icemen in Evansville:

http://www.courierpress.com/news/fa...66-c8ec-2b4c-e053-0100007f9655-364316681.html

Geary isn't talking, and the final deadline is today.


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## Gibbie42

They are talking. Here's the latest proposal from the team:

Deadline Marks IceMen's Future in Evansville

They're looking now to step back and agree to a one year and keep negotiating. That seems like a real bone. They're also asking for a reduction in rent and naming rights to the ice sheet. 

The Sin Bin has an interview with the mayor and the team's attorney

Sin Bin

The attorney says they really thought their last proposal would be well received and is baffled why it wasn't. Mayor takes pot shots at the time they received the contract. 

New response from the city coming at 12:30 CST today. I'm not sure where the news station is getting a noon deadline.

Channel 25 updated their story and took out the key points of the proposal but this is what they were:



> Eyewitness News has obtained a copy of the IceMen's latest proposal.
> 
> Here are some of the key components:
> 
> The current lease is extended one year, with one year extension and three year extension options for the tenant.
> Rent is reduced to $7,500 per game
> IceMen are permitted 1000 comp tickets per game for all exhibition, regular season and playoff games
> The IceMen receive naming rights to the rink.
> Another part of the counter proposal includes the IceMen receiving naming rights to the ice rink.


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## Gibbie42

Geary going on the news at 9pm to make an announcement.


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## mk80

Seems as if both sides want to play hardball still with each other. 

Also with those added security measures, I guess the company must figure they can make up for the cost of equipment, staff, and training for the staff by raising the concessions.


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## JDogindy

Considering that Geary isn't happy with the city, I think the Icemen will relocate. A shame because I liked 3 ECHL teams in Indiana.

However I think Evansville could be still a viable ECHL or SPHL location.


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## Captain Crash

JDogindy said:


> Considering that Geary isn't happy with the city, I think the Icemen will relocate. A shame because I liked 3 ECHL teams in Indiana.
> 
> However I think Evansville could be still a viable ECHL or SPHL location.




Fits well in the USHL and NAHL footprints as well. Evansville certainly won't be vacant for long if at all.


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## royals119

Captain Crash said:


> Fits well in the USHL and NAHL footprints as well. Evansville certainly won't be vacant for long if at all.



That is assuming that either the city will negotiate a better lease with someone else, or there is someone in Evansville who wants to lose money more than Geary.

If the city isn't willing to lease the building at a rate that allows a team to break even, it will be hard to find an owner willing to put a team there.


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## mfrerkes

royals119 said:


> If the city isn't willing to lease the building at a rate that allows a team to break even, it will be hard to find an owner willing to put a team there.




Exactly. Evansville may have the optics of good attendance, but their balance sheet is recounting an entirely different tale. I suspect the IceMen may have been handing out tickets as an enticement for patrons to buy alcohol...of which the IceMen would receive a cut. The problem with that approach is not every person holding a comped seat is going to buy the face value-equivalent of beer to offset their lack of ticket revenue. Many of the persons are children, or perhaps sensible folks who will drink beer elsewhere at a more economically-sensible price.

So, by inflating their attendance with freebies, the IceMen were obscuring the economic reality of Evansville's true fan support. The city wasn't about to start subsidizing this practice, either. I doubt they'll change their mind should someone else other than Ron Geary assume ownership of the team.


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## Gibbie42

You would be incorrect in that assumption. The IceMen were limited by the lease to 1000 tickets per game max to be comped. And you have to cover players, families, off ice crew, sponsors etc etc in that number. So while yes, you can give away free tickets, you can't significantly inflate your attendance numbers. 

Last night's new appearance basically reiterated the "we're at a stalemate" announcement. He got pushed hard to say he was folding the team but declined to say that outright. He did admit that really they had at least until the board of governors meeting in Feb. The mayor gave a press conference today that outlined three options. They are open to continued negotiations, they are open to a change in ownership (meaning I guess that they'd negotiate with someone else) and that they will start pursuing another team to come in for the 2016-17 season. The team today tweeted that they were working hard to keep the IceMen next season. Things are afoot, we're not dead yet, only mostly dead.


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## mfrerkes

Gibbie42 said:


> You would be incorrect in that assumption. The IceMen were limited by the lease to 1000 tickets per game max to be comped. And you have to cover players, families, off ice crew, sponsors etc etc in that number. So while yes, you can give away free tickets, you can't significantly inflate your attendance numbers.




If the IceMen were comping 1000 tickets per game, then that decreases their current "paid ticket average" by nearly 25%. To say that 25% doesn't represent a significant inflation of their published fan support seems rather disingenuous.

Whatever the case may be, Geary is claiming monetary losses that far exceed the scope of what the city should be realistically expected to cover. His lease at the Ford Center might be unfair as it relates to other ECHL clubs, but the lease clearly isn't his only source of financial distress.


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## Cyclones Rock

mfrerkes said:


> If the IceMen were comping 1000 tickets per game, then that decreases their current "paid ticket average" by nearly 25%. To say that 25% doesn't represent a significant inflation of their published fan support seems rather disingenuous.
> 
> Whatever the case may be, Geary is claiming monetary losses that far exceed the scope of what the city should be realistically expected to cover. His lease at the Ford Center might be unfair as it relates to other ECHL clubs, but the lease clearly isn't his only source of financial distress.




The lease is clearly way above the norm in the ECHL. The City of Evansville may have an enormously underused new facility on their hands starting in April or May. Geary doesn't need a hockey team. The City of Evansville needs a tenant. They sold building an arena to the public just a few years ago. Geary has the leverage and he's using it. If he closes shop, then the City looks really bad and has an even greater deficit on Ford Center operations. 

Not directed at you: When people use announced attendance figures in the ECHL as the basis of an argument, it's almost comical. Announced figures mean next to nothing in the ECHL. It's not too hard to estimate actual attendance numbers if one knows the capacity of the arena. The notion that an announced figure is even remotely related to an actual paid figure isn't a sound one relating to the ECHL or any other hockey league from what I've seen.

Evansville-based on my 3 or 4 games there-inflates its numbers by over 1,000 per game. Fort Wayne probably by 2000-2500. Florida by at least 1,500. Gwinnett by a ton. Orlando's announced figures are a joke-I was at a game there two years ago and there may have been 1500 there and the crowd was announced as 4,000 or so. Greenville was exaggerated wildly in the games I've seen there. Reading's numbers have been absurdly high when I've been there. Wheeling's are juiced as well.

Toledo seems to be on the up and up-meaning that the announced number would include a reasonable number of legitimate no shows who had purchased seats. Kalamazoo has appeared to be reasonably accurate in my few trips there. Cincinnati only counts people who are actually in the building in announced figures. The Cyclones might be the most honest attendance announce in pro sports. If there's a snowstorm and there are only 450 people in the building, that's what the announced attendance will be.

The Dayton Bombers announced 3600 per game during their last season. Turns out the real drop count (number actually in building) was 1900 and the paid figure was roughly 1000. I have lost the link to that article which documented this based on Wright State Nutter Center internal figures which were released.

Once again, using announced attendance figures as a basis for evaluating a team's finances or inferring its actual attendance in the ECHL isn't a worthwhile endeavor.


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## mfrerkes

Cyclones Rock said:


> The City of Evansville may have an enormously underused new facility on their hands starting in April or May. Geary doesn't need a hockey team. The City of Evansville needs a tenant.




The City of Evansville has probably already put some feelers out in the realm of junior hockey. Since the cost structures at that level are much more economical, the city wouldn't have to spend it's own money to subsidize a hockey club. That gives them a tenant and some additional breathing room in negotiating a lease deal.

Don't be surprised if we eventually learn that the city was planning on Geary's ouster before lease negotiations even took place. I think they were tired of dealing with a guy who wasn't prepared to fully subsidize his own operation.


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## Cyclones Rock

mfrerkes said:


> The City of Evansville has probably already put some feelers out in the realm of junior hockey. Since the cost structures at that level are much more economical, the city wouldn't have to spend it's own money to subsidize a hockey club. That gives them a tenant and some additional breathing room in negotiating a lease deal.
> 
> Don't be surprised if we eventually learn that the city was planning on Geary's ouster before lease negotiations even took place. I think they were tired of dealing with a guy who wasn't prepared to fully subsidize his own operation.





If the City has an ace in the hole in the form of juniors, then they are negotiating from a much stronger position than I gave them.

It's interesting to watch this play out as an outsider. I hope for the sake of Icemen fans that this gets resolved. I still think it will. Sometimes negotiations get heated and go to the 12th hour before compromise is reached. It appears that this is the path of these negotiations.


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## JeffNYI

Cyclones Rock said:


> Not directed at you: When people use announced attendance figures in the ECHL as the basis of an argument, it's almost comical. Announced figures mean next to nothing in the ECHL. It's not too hard to estimate actual attendance numbers if one knows the capacity of the arena. The notion that an announced figure is even remotely related to an actual paid figure isn't a sound one relating to the ECHL or any other hockey league from what I've seen.






> Cincinnati only counts people who are actually in the building in announced figures. The Cyclones might be the most honest attendance announce in pro sports. If there's a snowstorm and there are only 450 people in the building, that's what the announced attendance will be.




That was great. Thank you.

But you are correct about attendance numbers, of course.. There are several different pieces of data that the teams work with.. and unless things have changed in the last five years, one of the pieces of info is from the venue who tells them exactly how many people's tickets were scanned..

I have seen people bring in multiple unused tickets and asked for them to be scanned to help teams' announced attendance.. ie: 2 people walk in and ask for 8 tickets to be scanned.. and they're weren't people connected with the team, either.. they were paying supporters with paid tickets..

I was also witness to a venue manager challenging a team whose attendance reporting was vastly different to what was announced, and the team actually was able to plop down -- on the spot -- a printed report of all the season ticket holders whose tickets didn't get scanned.. Now, granted, some of those tickets were mine that I got for free.. it was a weeknight game that my family did not attend.. but most others were paid for by sponsors or ticket holders..

So it's all muddy. Very muddy.

But inaccurate attendance reporting -- at least in terms of bodies in the building versus what's announced -- does happen..

It may even happen in Cincinnati..


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## JDogindy

You guys also need to know that the city of Evansville has a team in the NA3HL, the Thunderbolts. If the Icemen leave, it won't leave a huge void in hockey, as the newspaper covers the Thunderbolts, as well.

That said, I think this might serve as a cautionary tale about the uneasy relationship minor league teams can have with cities, and this is also a time where 3 NFL teams are trying to move to Los Angeles.

But, again, I don't want the Icemen to move, because I like the fact that Indiana has 3 ECHL clubs and I always enjoy seeing the Fuel play the Komets and Icemen.


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## mfrerkes

Cyclones Rock said:


> I hope for the sake of Icemen fans that this gets resolved. I still think it will. Sometimes negotiations get heated and go to the 12th hour before compromise is reached. It appears that this is the path of these negotiations.




The bargaining chasm is so wide between Geary and the city, I'm not betting on it. They had weeks and weeks to negotiate this deal. The city's final offer was so unacceptable, Geary went on TV to tell everyone how hurt and offended he was by it. This is not good-faith bargaining on display in Evansville. It seems more like a personality war being waged between Mayor Winnecke and Ron Geary.

Those never end well, especially when very large sums of public money are at stake.


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## mk80

If the Icemen leave I would think the USHL would possibly try to activate the Indiana franchise there, it fits well in their footprint and the City of Evansville would still have a tenant for the Ford Center.


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## mfrerkes

mk80 said:


> If the Icemen leave I would think the USHL would possibly try to activate the Indiana franchise there, it fits well in their footprint and the City of Evansville would still have a tenant for the Ford Center.




I wouldn't be surprised if we learn that discussions with possible USHL ownership were underway at the same time Mayor Winnecke was "negotiating" with Ron Geary. This whole thing smelled funny from the get-go, and I don't think the city cares whether Evansville has AA pro hockey or Tier 1 junior hockey.

If the owners of a USHL product won't require huge financial givebacks from the city, it will probably make for a more stable hockey situation in Evansville. Geary was losing his shirt and expected the city to underwrite it all. That just doesn't go over well in most municipalities.


----------



## mk80

mfrerkes said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if we learn that discussions with possible USHL ownership were underway at the same time Mayor Winnecke was "negotiating" with Ron Geary. This whole thing smelled funny from the get-go, and I don't think the city cares whether Evansville has AA pro hockey or Tier 1 junior hockey.




Exactly even though in the early stages it appeared as though Geary had the upper hand, I believe the city has a backup plan in the event they lose the Icemen. Again my guess is probably the USHL Indiana Ice franchise over SPHL.


----------



## Woo Hockey

http://www.thesportsadvisorygroup.com/teams-for-sale/

IceMen?


----------



## mfrerkes

ItsNotDylan said:


> http://www.thesportsadvisorygroup.com/teams-for-sale/
> 
> IceMen?




Probably.


----------



## Gibbie42

Seems likely, thought I'm not at all sure that there's actually time. Makes me wonder if something else isn't percolating and this is all part of it. 

Things are weird down here. The local paper is being openly negative toward the team. 

WEBB: Unlike Ellis Park, IceMen negotiations unlikely to end in last-second sav

And factually incorrect and incomplete. 

The transient nature of minor league sports 

It's infuriating. I know a lot of teams in minor league markets have trouble getting local media coverage, but our is actively working against us. Arena seems to have written us off too, based on some conversation with office staff about how they were treated tonight. 

Good game tonight, light crowd but weekdays always are. But a pretty win for the good guys. Saturday should be big. If we can pull another win that would be really good.

I think we're likely in the end stage. Owners meetings are coming up soon, something certainly will come out of that.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

I'm not shocked how the media is doing it. It is their job. When we went through our situation here it was all negative. Not that I blame them their job is to inform the public and the truth isn't always good. Hell watch the news. Its mostly negative and depressing. You may be able to call them out on facts but the truth is most newspaper readers are probably older and I'm guessing not big on the team and therefore its no big deal because they don't likely know what the truth is anyways.


----------



## mfrerkes

I think two things doomed the IceMen in this circumstance, and both things were related to their owner:

1) Ron Geary had unrealistic expectations about the profitability of an ECHL franchise. Most minor league hockey team owners don't ever see a profit. They're usually operating the club as a personal hobby, or see it as some type of civic donation to the local sports community. Geary, on the other hand, seemed to be motivated almost entirely by dollars. Once those didn't materialize, he made the city his scapegoat, which led to a public breakdown in good-faith bargaining.

2) Ron Geary had previously burnt some bridges with his horse track drama. Threatening to close something (like a horse track) because you're not getting your way...then suddenly backing off a threat, makes one look like a diva. Geary demonstrated the same type of behavior in these negotiations with the Ford Center. He knew what his losses were, and should have known that the city itself would not be able subsidize anything close to that amount. Yet, he plowed ahead with another "Ellis Park" strategy of threatening the city with his team's imminent shut-down. They didn't bite.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

mfrerkes said:


> I think two things doomed the IceMen in this circumstance, and both things were related to their owner:
> 
> 1) Ron Geary had unrealistic expectations about the profitability of an ECHL franchise. Most minor league hockey team owners don't ever see a profit. They're usually operating the club as a personal hobby, or see it as some type of civic donation to the local sports community. Geary, on the other hand, seemed to be motivated almost entirely by dollars. Once those didn't materialize, he made the city his scapegoat, which led to a public breakdown in good-faith bargaining.
> 
> 2) Ron Geary had previously burnt some bridges with his horse track drama. Threatening to close something (like a horse track) because you're not getting your way...then suddenly backing off a threat, makes one look like a diva. Geary demonstrated the same type of behavior in these negotiations with the Ford Center. He knew what his losses were, and should have known that the city itself would not be able subsidize anything close to that amount. Yet, he plowed ahead with another "Ellis Park" strategy of threatening the city with his team's imminent shut-down. They didn't bite.




I find it funny that owners at this level aim to be profitable like its an expectation. I know that in Elmira for example the owners put out a 3 year plan to atleast break even with having a "community" run team...this is over the 3 years total not just for one. I don't think they realize how lofty of an expectation that is, especially if you have a bad team like they did last year. 

I wonder what Geary will do. Relocate? Sell? Just fold them?


----------



## mk80

mfrerkes said:


> I think two things doomed the IceMen in this circumstance, and both things were related to their owner:
> 
> 1) Ron Geary had unrealistic expectations about the profitability of an ECHL franchise. Most minor league hockey team owners don't ever see a profit. They're usually operating the club as a personal hobby, or see it as some type of civic donation to the local sports community. Geary, on the other hand, seemed to be motivated almost entirely by dollars. Once those didn't materialize, he made the city his scapegoat, which led to a public breakdown in good-faith bargaining.
> 
> 2) Ron Geary had previously burnt some bridges with his horse track drama. Threatening to close something (like a horse track) because you're not getting your way...then suddenly backing off a threat, makes one look like a diva. Geary demonstrated the same type of behavior in these negotiations with the Ford Center. He knew what his losses were, and should have known that the city itself would not be able subsidize anything close to that amount. Yet, he plowed ahead with another "Ellis Park" strategy of threatening the city with his team's imminent shut-down. They didn't bite.




You've definitely hit a nail on the head here. Adding to that is probably the fact that I think the city officials know there is a backup plan, I'm sure Evansville has been courted by the USHL and SPHL as well.


----------



## mfrerkes

Sports Enthusiast said:


> I wonder what Geary will do. Relocate? Sell? Just fold them?




I think Geary will sell the team. There's probably no shortage of out-of-market buyers. That almost certainly means the IceMen will be playing in a different city in nine months.


----------



## mfrerkes

mk80 said:


> I'm sure Evansville has been courted by the USHL and SPHL as well.




They have options which involve a lower-overhead business model. That means less negotiating headaches for the arena, since the ownership wouldn't be incurring massive debt to operate a hockey team.


----------



## Gibbie42

And in bizarre news tonight, an rumor from way out in left field:



Which, um ok. The Sportscenter currently has no ice plant and would have to be renovated to fit a regulation size ice sheet. The mayor of Owensboro is a little loony toons so it's hard to tell if they're actually negotiating or it's just some wild ass idea he called up Geary with. This already strange situation just took a really odd turn.


----------



## Gibbie42

And because I know you all are hanging on every development, two more tweets from the city tonight:





Another ECHL owner. Comments in the tweet indicate they were told to expect a response from the team. 

I'm thinking the stuff out of Owensboro is just some craziness. The mayor there once advocating rerouting I69 off it's current path and around Owensboro. The highway that had just been newly built. And was incensed that no one would consider it.


----------



## toledo109

Yeah... because Kentucky really supported it's AHL team in the late 90's to early 2000's. I just want it to happen because of the absurdity of it.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Oh boy. Kentucky? Maybe they can sell to Mostafa Afr!


----------



## Neill99

Minor pro hockey back in Kentucky I hope so and they be call the Kentucky Thoroughblades.


----------



## SemireliableSource

Jesus, give it a rest. The Thoroughblades name is done. Dead and buried. If it comes back at all, it will be in Lexington again.

I think the Owensboro stuff is just craziness from the mayor. The building would need a hell of a lot more than an ice plant to be ECHL ready. I haven't been in the arena (hell, I don't even remember the last time I was in Owensboro) but from what I've seen in pictures, it would be one of the worst arenas in the league.


----------



## mfrerkes

Gibbie42 said:


> Another ECHL owner. Comments in the tweet indicate they were told to expect a response from the team.




The city of Evansville isn't going to budge much, if at all. Should the IceMen suddenly come to agreeable terms with the Ford Center, it's because Geary realized his temper tantrum failed and Winnecke wasn't going to blink.

Geary was never in a strong negotiating position. I think he hoped to bolster his position by threatening to fold the team. The ECHL probably realizes how difficult Geary was making this situation by refusing to talk, and is now encouraging him to act like a grown-up before this thing really collapses.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

mfrerkes said:


> The city of Evansville isn't going to budge much, if at all. Should the IceMen suddenly come to agreeable terms with the Ford Center, it's because Geary realized his temper tantrum failed and Winnecke wasn't going to blink.
> 
> Geary was never in a strong negotiating position. I think he hoped to bolster his position by threatening to fold the team. The ECHL probably realizes how difficult Geary was making this situation by refusing to talk, and is now encouraging him to act like a grown-up before this thing really collapses.




In the IHL days the team would have probably folded by now or relocated. Hell maybe the Franke's would have stepped in and took it off his hands lol


----------



## mfrerkes

Sports Enthusiast said:


> In the IHL days the team would have probably folded by now or relocated. Hell maybe the Franke's would have stepped in and took it off his hands lol




Maybe they can move it to the Polar Dome in suburban Chicago, like they were going to do with the dormant Chicago Hounds franchise. Remember that fiasco?


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

mfrerkes said:


> Maybe they can move it to the Polar Dome in suburban Chicago, like they were going to do with the dormant Chicago Hounds franchise. Remember that fiasco?




Oh yes. I kind of wish Chicago lasted. They had a nice facility. Just never thought the market needed a AA team though.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

mfrerkes said:


> The city of Evansville isn't going to budge much, if at all. Should the IceMen suddenly come to agreeable terms with the Ford Center, it's because Geary realized his temper tantrum failed and Winnecke wasn't going to blink.
> 
> Geary was never in a strong negotiating position. I think he hoped to bolster his position by threatening to fold the team. The ECHL probably realizes how difficult Geary was making this situation by refusing to talk, and is now encouraging him to act like a grown-up before this thing really collapses.




Characterizing Geary with terms like "temper tantrum" and "act like a grown up" isn't a fair characterization in my estimation. He's playing hardball. And most government bureaucrats don't like that as it doesn't play well to their arrogant sense of power and entitlement. At least that's been my experience when I've had disagreements with them and stood my ground.

Geary's losing money on his venture. Most of the losses because of a very poor lease. He's not going to subsidize the City's White Elephant any more. Neither will the speculated SPHL or USHL teams. Those days are (rightfully) over. Geary has changed the framework for any major tenant with respect to lease negotiations with the Ford Center.

Also, your notion that there are "a lot of out-of-market" buyers doesn't seem right to me. The ECHL will probably be close to a 20 team league (currently 28) within 5-7 years. There are so many trouble spots that the value of most existing ECHL franchises is next to nil. Toledo, Colorado and a few others have some legitimate value, but most don't. Other than the ECHL franchises which have been part of the AHL westward movement (Ontario, Stockton, Bakersfield), there hasn't been an ECHL franchise sale which wasn't a giveaway since Reinsdorf sold Stockton 4 or 5 years ago.

I still believe that the 11th hour will produce an agreement.


----------



## Gibbie42

Thanks Cyclones Rock. Ron Geary is a self made man who holds both a JD and an CPA. The man is not stupid. And yes, he's playing hardball. Even Franke knows how bad this deal is. He told me in Ft Wayne (several of us were waiting out by the visiting locker room after a game) that he believed the city was trying to finance the Ford Center on the backs of the Aces (University of Evansville basketball) and the IceMen and it simply wasn't fair. The Lady Aces are rumored to be moving back to campus because they can't afford the rent either. The Ford Center is charging the same basic rent (10 grand a night) to everyone, including the Hadi Shrine Circus and the annual Guns n Hoses boxing tournament. It's hard on everyone. Meanwhile the arena is empty an awful lot of the time and no one seems to want to press VenuWorks on why they aren't booking it more. More shows and events means your primary tenants wouldn't have to bear the entire burden of the facility.


----------



## Woo Hockey

IceMen Looking For Home Around Tri-State


----------



## mfrerkes

Cyclones Rock said:


> Geary's losing money on his venture. Most of the losses because of a very poor lease. He's not going to subsidize the City's White Elephant any more.




Nobody forced Geary to sign the "bad lease" that he is currently decrying as the sole source of his financial travails. The City of Evansville was going to build their arena with or without a hockey team. They didn't have a modern events facility, and needed one to compete with other similarly-sized municipalities. If Geary felt he was being treated poorly and was being made to subsidize a white elephant, then he should have never signed the original lease. A good businessman certainly would not have done that.



Cyclones Rock said:


> Also, your notion that there are "a lot of out-of-market" buyers doesn't seem right to me. The ECHL will probably be close to a 20 team league (currently 28) within 5-7 years.




There are still plenty of cities who wish to roll the dice on minor league hockey. If Geary puts the franchise up for sale, there will be interested buyers.



Cyclones Rock said:


> I still believe that the 11th hour will produce an agreement.




The "11th Hour" was 10 days ago, so we're well beyond that stage now.

And, yes, an agreement is possible if Geary is willing to accept the terms dictated to him by the city. If he's expecting the city to give him every dime he needs to balance the books, however, I doubt any such agreement will be offered by Mayor Winnekce's office.


----------



## JDogindy

Owensboro makes little to no sense, given the venue (and the need to renovate the hell out of it), but if there's any consolation, they would at least be able to be in a very close area for Evansville fans to support.

But, I think the onus is on Evansville, because 10 grand per usage at Ford Center for everybody is crazy.


----------



## mfrerkes

Gibbie42 said:


> Thanks Cyclones Rock. Ron Geary is a self made man who holds both a JD and an CPA. The man is not stupid. And yes, he's playing hardball.




Then Ron Geary should be smart enough to figure out that forcing a cash-strapped entity (like the City of Evansville) to subsidize his money-losing venture is a Fool's Errand from the very beginning. Mayor Winnecke doesn't have the financial -- nor political -- wiggle room to absorb $400,000+ every season in lease give-backs to the IceMen.

And, even if he did, the ultimate ramifications of facilitating such a move could threaten his career as a public official entrusted with overseeing the city's treasury.

The lease may be unfair, but Ron Geary is stuck in a city that lacks the financial wherewithal to makes things fairer. Most city budgets don't have an individual line item for subsidizing a minor league hockey team. If that's what Geary wants, he'll probably need to relocate the IceMen to a different city altogether.





Gibbie42 said:


> Even Franke knows how bad this deal is. He told me in Ft Wayne (several of us were waiting out by the visiting locker room after a game) that he believed the city was trying to finance the Ford Center on the backs of the Aces (University of Evansville basketball) and the IceMen and it simply wasn't fair. The Lady Aces are rumored to be moving back to campus because they can't afford the rent either.




Franke can believe whatever he wants. He doesn't have to worry about being accountable to voters in Evansville, Indiana. Lloyd Winnecke does.

If sports teams like the IceMen and Aces are unable to sell a sufficient amount of tickets to cover their financial obligations, that isn't the city's fault. These lease agreements were negotiated, drafted, and signed well before either team played a game. The upfront costs for both parties were disclosed, and the teams should have known their corresponding baseline for ticket sales and other sources of revenue.

If they signed a lease whilst ignoring the financial viability of their own operation, that isn't the city's fault. If the terms the Ford Center presented were unacceptable, the only responsible thing for them to do was not sign a lease. Trying to retroactively blame the city for their own flippancy seems a little mind boggling.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

> [B said:
> 
> 
> 
> *mfrerkes*[/B];112301933]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody forced Geary to sign the "bad lease" that he is currently decrying as the sole source of his financial travails. The City of Evansville was going to build their arena with or without a hockey team. They didn't have a modern events facility, and needed one to compete with other similarly-sized municipalities. If Geary felt he was being treated poorly and was being made to subsidize a white elephant, then he should have never signed the original lease. A good businessman certainly would not have done that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> He lived up to the bad lease and he's not going to do it again. It's clearly well over market for ECHL teams. T
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are still plenty of cities who wish to roll the dice on minor league hockey. If Geary puts the franchise up for sale, there will be interested buyers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You have no idea if this is true. Neither do I. I do know that ECHL franchises don't carry much of a price tag.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The "11th Hour" was 10 days ago, so we're well beyond that stage now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The 11th hour is when the real drop dead date is. That has been a very fluid date. I suppose the ECHL has one, but it's probably not even close. Just remember that multiple CHL teams were admitted weeks before the season a few years back. Schedule adjustments, while not ideal, are certainly doable.
> 
> The Mayor is going to be accountable to the voters if his arena is empty most of the time. The sea of red ink and false promises given to the public prior to the arena being approved could certainly bite him in the fanny come election time. I stand by my assertion that the City of Evansville and their top elected officials need the Ice Men a whole lot more than Geary does.
> 
> Anyhoose, enjoyed the exchanges with you and, once again, I really hope that the team becomes a long term fixture in Evansville. They have very nice fans and the team fits in very well with the ECHLs midwestern footprint.
Click to expand...


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Cyclones Rock said:


> He lived up to the bad lease and he's not going to do it again. It's clearly well over market for ECHL teams. T
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have no idea if this is true. Neither do I. I do know that ECHL franchises don't carry much of a price tag.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 11th hour is when the real drop dead date is. That has been a very fluid date. I suppose the ECHL has one, but it's probably not even close. Just remember that multiple CHL teams were admitted weeks before the season a few years back. Schedule adjustments, while not ideal, are certainly doable.
> 
> The Mayor is going to be accountable to the voters if his arena is empty most of the time. The sea of red ink and false promises given to the public prior to the arena being approved could certainly bite him in the fanny come election time. I stand by my assertion that the City of Evansville and their top elected officials need the Ice Men a whole lot more than Geary does.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't speak for the CHL teams but I know when the Jackals came into the league as an expansion team it cost $1.5 mil to join the league. Obviously a relocation and sale is different but I was always curious about why it was that number and what it was supposed to mean.
Click to expand...


----------



## JeffNYI

mfrerkes said:


> Then Ron Geary should be smart enough to figure out that forcing a cash-strapped entity (like the City of Evansville) to subsidize his money-losing venture is a Fool's Errand from the very beginning. Mayor Winnecke doesn't have the financial -- nor political -- wiggle room to absorb $400,000+ every season in lease give-backs to the IceMen.
> 
> And, even if he did, the ultimate ramifications of facilitating such a move could threaten his career as a public official entrusted with overseeing the city's treasury.
> 
> The lease may be unfair, but Ron Geary is stuck in a city that lacks the financial wherewithal to makes things fairer. Most city budgets don't have an individual line item for subsidizing a minor league hockey team. If that's what Geary wants, he'll probably need to relocate the IceMen to a different city altogether.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Franke can believe whatever he wants. He doesn't have to worry about being accountable to voters in Evansville, Indiana. Lloyd Winnecke does.
> 
> If sports teams like the IceMen and Aces are unable to sell a sufficient amount of tickets to cover their financial obligations, that isn't the city's fault. These lease agreements were negotiated, drafted, and signed well before either team played a game. The upfront costs for both parties were disclosed, and the teams should have known their corresponding baseline for ticket sales and other sources of revenue.
> 
> If they signed a lease whilst ignoring the financial viability of their own operation, that isn't the city's fault. If the terms the Ford Center presented were unacceptable, the only responsible thing for them to do was not sign a lease. Trying to retroactively blame the city for their own flippancy seems a little mind boggling.




You're talking like Geary is asking for a refund or something..


----------



## Gibbie42

The city of Evansville is not cash strapped. And in all other areas Winnecke has been very progressive, willing to spend money to encourage growth and development. He's actually been doing a very good job and I've been supportive of him, though as a lowly county resident I don't actually get a say in Evansville politics, I don't get a vote for city offices. There's a lot about to happen in downtown, a new hotel underway that's adjacent to the Ford Center, a new medical school about to break ground, lots of growth downtown. It's baffling that he's willing to toss away a good tenant. 

UE had no real choice but to sign. The city tore down their old home. They had literally no where else to play. An article someone dug up this morning in the C&P indicates that their lease is 10,500 a game (base). No idea how many extras they have to pay. 

I think what it comes down to is that the city is hopelessly naive about the realities of bringing in a new team. VenuWorks is posturing about being able to get one "easily." But there are only three pro minor leagues. You can't just start a new AHL team, you have to have one move. You won't be able to put an ECHL team there because Geary owns the territorial rights whether he moves to Owensboro or goes dark (he told me last night he can stay dark for two years before he has to make a decision, in that time no one else can come into Eville) and the SPHL. I don't think an SPHL team can afford the rent. I don't know who they think will come in there. And I'm still without confidence that VenuWorks can fill the void in dates. You want to talk about cash strapped. The IceMen bring in about 1.2 million to the city in lease fees and in food and beverage, how does the city replace that?

In other news, Mayor Ron Payne of Owensboro was a guest of Ron Geary at the game last night. This whole move thing is a lot more serious than I knew.


----------



## mfrerkes

JeffNYI said:


> You're talking like Geary is asking for a refund or something..




No. Geary is talking like he failed to crunch some numbers before signing the original lease. The city didn't suddenly raise rent on him mid-contract. His costs for the building were spelled out before the IceMen played their very first game at the Ford Center. He agreed to pay what the city was asking, and that figure should have been calculated into his original business plan.

He is blaming the city despite the fact he agreed to the terms offered him. The city can't help the fact he didn't sell enough hockey tickets to break even. If the lease was too unfair and financially oppressive, he could have exercised the option of not signing it in the first place.


----------



## mfrerkes

Cyclones Rock said:


> He lived up to the bad lease and he's not going to do it again. It's clearly well over market for ECHL teams.




It may very well be, but the city of Evansville holds the title to the Ford Center, and they're accountable to voters/taxpayers. The political fallout from going deeper in the hole to subsidize a hockey team would be problematic. I can understand why they'd want to avoid making a bad financial situation even worse.



Cyclones Rock said:


> I do know that ECHL franchises don't carry much of a price tag.




If Geary was looking to sell the team, he could find a buyer. Instead, it sounds like he is leaning towards keeping it and moving it somewhere nearby. Like, Owensboro.



Cyclones Rock said:


> The Mayor is going to be accountable to the voters if his arena is empty most of the time. The sea of red ink and false promises given to the public prior to the arena being approved could certainly bite him in the fanny come election time. I stand by my assertion that the City of Evansville and their top elected officials need the Ice Men a whole lot more than Geary does.




VenuWorks has cited the cluttered winter events schedule (The IceMen, and two college basketball teams dominate the calendar) as a hindrance to scheduling more concerts. There's an interesting article in the Courier-Press about this very topic:

http://www.courierpress.com/news/fa...1-5355-2d3b-e053-0100007f219d-365538841.html\

Mayor Winnecke has decided that subsidizing a hockey team with dwindling attendance is more politically risky than letting the building sit empty on would-be IceMen home dates. His calculation is likely correct. Most city residents are not going to support pouring a half-million dollars into an ECHL franchise, especially when the building they're playing in already has financial difficulties. His return-on-investment for subsidizing the IceMen isn't likely to yield a net positive, at least in terms of additional facility revenue.


----------



## mfrerkes

Gibbie42 said:


> It's baffling that he's willing to toss away a good tenant.




Winnecke made the IceMen an offer. Geary is the party who is unwilling to respond. Perhaps the offer is out of Geary's desired price range, but the characterization that Winnecke is simply "tossing away" the hockey team is not accurate.

Geary is still out playing games, and according to some in the local press, he is losing badly:

http://www.courierpress.com/columni...57-fbb6-649f-e053-0100007fa849-365557051.html


----------



## JungleJON

Maybe this would be a good opportunity for Peoria to get back into the ECHL. He could sell the team to the current owners of the Peoria SPHL team and maybe be a minority owner.


----------



## SemireliableSource

Peoria is more than happy in the SPHL. Get a couple of teams closer to them and they'd be ecstatic.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

FrancoRussianAlaskan said:


> Peoria is more than happy in the SPHL. Get a couple of teams closer to them and they'd be ecstatic.




Do you, or anyone else here, know what the difference in operating budgets between an ECHL and a SPHL team are? I'm thinking that it's about 60-70% as much, but really don't know for sure.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

mfrerkes said:


> Winnecke made the IceMen an offer. Geary is the party who is unwilling to respond. Perhaps the offer is out of Geary's desired price range, but the characterization that Winnecke is simply "tossing away" the hockey team is not accurate.
> 
> *Geary is still out playing games,* and according to some in the local press, he is losing badly:
> 
> http://www.courierpress.com/columni...57-fbb6-649f-e053-0100007fa849-365557051.html




Whatever the bolded means. Sometimes offers aren't even close to reasonable and don't warrant a response. Unless one is privy to the details of an entire negotiation, then it's very speculative to assign a reason to one party's non response to a given offer.

Who knows the dynamics between the writer and Geary? Or the writer and the Mayor? He could just not like Geary, you know. He could be a press lackey for the Mayor. I don't know Evansville media well, nor would I guess, do you.

It's a contentious negotiation. He's not going to move the team to Owensboro. He signs a lease, folds or puts the team in suspension for a year. Signing a lease will probably still happen.

I did find it interesting that the writer did state that the attendance was juiced ("you'd have to be seeing double"). Par for the course in most of the ECHL-the exaggeration of numbers.


----------



## JackalsKnuckles

Owensboro paper is tweeting that they are getting the team next season.

https://twitter.com/OwensboroMI

Could be more posturing, but sounds more and more like it may happen.

Per the news a restaurant and off track betting parlor will be part of the deal to accentuate Geary's horse racing business as well.


Per the Tweet:

The IceMen hockey team will be moving to Owensboro. Team will purchase Sporstcenter for $1 and expand it to 7200 seats.
23 retweets 7 likes
Reply Retweet 23 
Like 7 
More


----------



## Captain Crash

JackalsKnuckles said:


> Owensboro paper is tweeting that they are getting the team next season.
> 
> https://twitter.com/OwensboroMI
> 
> Could be more posturing, but sounds more and more like it may happen.
> 
> Per the news a restaurant and off track betting parlor will be part of the deal to accentuate Geary's horse racing business as well.
> 
> 
> Per the Tweet:
> 
> The IceMen hockey team will be moving to Owensboro. Team will purchase Sporstcenter for $1 and expand it to 7200 seats.
> 23 retweets 7 likes
> Reply Retweet 23
> Like 7
> More




That info is starting to get picked up by some websites now as well.

http://thesinbin.net/breaking-evansville-icemen-announce-move/

One caveat seems to be that the ECHL has not approved the move yet. Can't imagine the BOG saying no if the upgrades are done.


----------



## mfrerkes

Cyclones Rock said:


> It's a contentious negotiation. He's not going to move the team to Owensboro. He signs a lease, folds or puts the team in suspension for a year. Signing a lease will probably still happen.




Care to re-evaluate your opinion?


----------



## mfrerkes

Captain Crash said:


> One caveat seems to be that the ECHL has not approved the move yet. Can't imagine the BOG saying no if the upgrades are done.




So, Geary was complaining about spending $600,000 of his own money for another season of hockey in Evansville. Now, he is gleefully spending ten times that figure to renovate an arena in a smaller market that probably cannot support ECHL hockey.

This guy has either lost his freakin' mind...or is getting a jump on his April Fools' Day prank.


----------



## mk80

Hopefully if he moves to Owensboro he does all his homework on the costs of purchasing the arena and making the necessary renovations. We saw what happened in San Francisco with the Bulls, they paid a whole lot of money to upgrade the Cow Palace and that left them cash strapped, plus when the lockout ended they couldn't compete once fans started going to Sharks games.

While he wouldn't have an NHL in his backyard, he will have a problem if fans drop off more not wanting to go to Owensboro.


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## JackalsKnuckles

With Evansville being 45 minutes from Owensboro it will make it tough to have 2 teams in the same general area if the arena was already negotiating with another possible tenant in the USHL or SPHL. Two teams 35 miles apart can work in Canada or even on the East coast where there is a lot of hockey culture and support, but not sure it will work in the Midwest, although Peoria and Bloomington seem to survive in a similar geographic arrangement.


----------



## mfrerkes

mk80 said:


> While he wouldn't have an NHL in his backyard, he will have a problem if fans drop off more not wanting to go to Owensboro.




If the Ford Center lands another hockey tenant (maybe SPHL, maybe USHL) it's game over for Ron Geary attracting any significant fan base from Evansville. Walk-up ticket sales will be very small in Owensboro, and casual fans from Evansville aren't going to drive that far if a hockey alternative exists in their hometown.

It's going to be a colossal waste of money for Geary, but his pride is blinding him to any facts or reason. I'm still very curious how the ECHL will approach this situation. The Owensboro market isn't really big enough for AA hockey. Are they going to green-light a proposal that is bound to fail miserably? Can the league afford to accept the impending negative PR that would come from such an irresponsible business plan?


----------



## JDogindy

mk80 said:


> Hopefully if he moves to Owensboro he does all his homework on the costs of purchasing the arena and making the necessary renovations. We saw what happened in San Francisco with the Bulls, they paid a whole lot of money to upgrade the Cow Palace and that left them cash strapped, plus when the lockout ended they couldn't compete once fans started going to Sharks games.
> 
> While he wouldn't have an NHL in his backyard, he will have a problem if fans drop off more not wanting to go to Owensboro.




I think Owensboro would happily support the Icemen, at least for a while. The team sucking won't help long term, though. And, again, while I feel bad for Evansville, I know that Icemen fans will likely still make the pilgrimage since it's not that far away. And, Evansville also seems to be supporting the Thunderbirds, too.

And the Cow Palace is a dilapidated 70 year old arena, while the Owensboro venue isn't as old and likely, as such, won't be needing all sorts of renovations and augmentations required.


----------



## mfrerkes

JackalsKnuckles said:


> Two teams 35 miles apart can work in Canada or even on the East coast where there is a lot of hockey culture and support, but not sure it will work in the Midwest, although Peoria and Bloomington seem to survive in a similar geographic arrangement.




Bloomington hasn't really survived, at least in terms of minor league support. They are in the USHL (not professional hockey) and rank near the league's bottom in attendance. Overall fan support has dropped almost 50% since pro hockey first appeared in Bloomington ten years ago.

Meanwhile, Peoria has dropped from AAA to A in recent years. Their attendance of 3700-ish per game is below that of ECHL peer metros like Quad Cities and Evansville, who boast 4000+ per game. Peoria was averaging around 4500 less than a decade ago.

Hockey presently exists in both Bloomington and Peoria, but it has been on a continuous downward trajectory in terms of league caliber and overall fan support.


----------



## mfrerkes

JDogindy said:


> And the Cow Palace is a dilapidated 70 year old arena, while the Owensboro venue isn't as old and likely, as such, won't be needing all sorts of renovations and augmentations required.




Geary has committed to spending up to $6,000,000 on the renovations. Does anybody honestly believe the Owensboro market is a sweet enough plum that Geary can break even on his investment in 10 years?

He'll have to clear in $600,000 profits every year over the next decade just to be out of the red. It's completely and utterly unrealistic. I'm not saying he should stay in Evansville, but if losing massive sums of money is such a huge concern to Geary, why would he gamble millions in a market that has much less revenue potential than Evansville?

This is plain nuts.


----------



## JackalsKnuckles

mfrerkes said:


> Bloomington hasn't really survived, at least in terms of minor league support. They are in the USHL (not professional hockey) and rank near the league's bottom in attendance. Overall fan support has dropped almost 50% since pro hockey first appeared in Bloomington ten years ago.
> 
> Meanwhile, Peoria has dropped from AAA to A in recent years. Their attendance of 3700-ish per game is below that of ECHL peer metros like Quad Cities and Evansville, who boast 4000+ per game. Peoria was averaging around 4500 less than a decade ago.
> 
> Hockey presently exists in both Bloomington and Peoria, but it has been on a continuous downward trajectory in terms of league caliber and overall fan support.





Agreed on Bloomington and the decline in Peoria. I was mainly indicating that I am also surprised that Bloomington has lasted this long, especially in such a big building such as the US Cellular Coliseum. I have no idea how they or Youngstown survive with such small attendance in similar buildings.


----------



## Gibbie42

It's a sweetheart deal that Owensboro is offering. Sell the building to him for a dollar, toss in a little over a quarter of a million to help with the renovations, let him own it for eight years (and remember he gets all the revenue from that and there are two other teams that play out of the building currently) and then can buy it back from him at fair market value at the end of eight. 

Owensboro can support the team. They're calling for 7200 seats, so obviously they're raising the roof a la the Allen County War Memorial Coliseum. Remember, now his yearly team costs drop considerably. No more rent, plus he makes money from people being in the building. Even if you keep the current poor attendance from this year, 3000 people look a lot different in a 7000 seat building than they do in a 9000 seat one. My complete speculation is that he's got some financial investors to help defray costs but even if he doesn't, he stands to make a decent return on his investment. Staying in Evansville doesn't do that. I don't have to like the move, but I sure as hell understand it.


----------



## mfrerkes

Gibbie42 said:


> Even if you keep the current poor attendance from this year, 3000 people look a lot different in a 7000 seat building than they do in a 9000 seat one.




I'm not sure how he even maintains the current attendance in a 7000-seat building that is approximately 30 miles away from the market where his core fan base exists. A theoretical Owensboro ECHL franchise drawing 3000 per game next season (assuming the league green-lights this) seems like a very rosy scenario. Reality isn't usually quite so rosy, especially in minor league hockey, and especially with a team whose fortunes keep declining.

I'm also not sure how Geary goes from losing $600,000 in a year to making $600,000 in a year simply by playing in Owensboro. That's a $1.2 million swing in the finances. It's not like his travel costs, league fees, or player salaries will be going down. And, if the Sportscenter was truly capable of generating $1.2 million dollars in net income every year, do you think the city of Owensboro would sell that Golden Goose for $1 to a guy from Evansville, Indiana?

This is the biggest "Pie In The Sky" fantasy scheme I can ever recall for a minor league hockey team. It's too bad Geary wants to keep prolonging the agony for hockey fans in and around Evansville.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

JackalsKnuckles said:


> Agreed on Bloomington and the decline in Peoria. I was mainly indicating that I am also surprised that Bloomington has lasted this long, especially in such a big building such as the US Cellular Coliseum. I have no idea how they or Youngstown survive with such small attendance in similar buildings.




They aren't the only markets. I'm surprised that Wheeling and Elmira are still around. Granted I don't think they will be 3-5 years from now.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Captain Crash said:


> That info is starting to get picked up by some websites now as well.
> 
> http://thesinbin.net/breaking-evansville-icemen-announce-move/
> 
> One caveat seems to be that the ECHL has not approved the move yet. Can't imagine the BOG saying no if the upgrades are done.




Isn't Geary not necessarily the most liked guy with a somewhat questionable past?

That's a nice deal though a restaurant and a horse racing parlor. Imagine if they added to put those inside the arena lol


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## Cyclones Rock

mfrerkes said:


> Care to re-evaluate your opinion?







The only thing that I knew about Owensboro was that I went there on my first hockey travelling trip when I was in something like the 7th grade. I never imagined

Oops.

If this really happens, then I wish the team well. It's close enough that die hards can get to the games if they want to go.


----------



## mfrerkes

Cyclones Rock said:


> The only thing that I knew about Owensboro was that I went there on my first hockey travelling trip when I was in something like the 7th grade. I never imagined
> 
> Oops.




I'm not knocking you for believing Geary wouldn't move to Owensboro. It would be an irrational move for a guy who seems concerned about losing money on a hockey team. If Geary would have instead followed your advice to remain in Evansville and had signed a new lease deal with the Ford Center, he'd be much better off right now.

Spending $6,000,000 on an outdated arena that is already losing six figures every year, so you can move your unprofitable hockey team to a market one-third the size of Evansville is the epitome bad judgement. I can't believe that a responsible team owner would put his fans through something like this.

But, we're not talking about a responsible team owner. We're talking about a guy throwing an expensive temper tantrum. Watching this unfold is both painful and funny at the same time.


----------



## Artie Fufkin

The idea that Geary would be able to renovate this building, add more seating and floor space, and be done by the beginning of next hockey season is a complete farce. 

If this is a serious proposal, the $6 million figure needs another zero.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

This has clearly moved into the realm of personalities over finances, no doubt. On both sides of the coin. If Geary could build a reasonably-priced 7000 seat arena, he could dramatically impact the Ford Center given the proximity.

As the above poster stated, the renovation would cost a great deal more than what has been mentioned.

Somebody mentioned to me, and I haven't seen an outside source for it, that there may be a betting parlor attached to the renovation. That would be a game changer. Geary owns Ellis Park which has a limited amount of gambling machines. If there is an expansion of gambling that is soon to be announced in Kentucky, then the "Sportscenter" would merely become a part of a greater casino complex and the IceMen a small part of the bigger equation.

Who knows what will happen? I'd view this latest twist as another negotiating ploy. An usual one, I must say I hope that the situation gets resolved and the Ice Men remain at the FC. It's certainly not impossible for that to happen.


----------



## mfrerkes

Artie Fufkin said:


> The idea that Geary would be able to renovate this building, add more seating and floor space, and be done by the beginning of next hockey season is a complete farce.
> 
> If this is a serious proposal, the $6 million figure needs another zero.




That was my thinking as well. When Fort Wayne renovated their facility in 2002, it was much, MUCH more than $6,000,000. Like six times that figure.

This isn't a sane, workable proposal for making the IceMen profitable within ten years. This is a horribly-conceived Hail Mary pass at getting Lloyd Winnecke to pay all of Ron Geary's hockey bills. It didn't work.

Now, the big question is if the ECHL will go along with such a hare-brained scheme.


----------



## mfrerkes

Cyclones Rock said:


> Who knows what will happen? I'd view this latest twist as another negotiating ploy. An usual one, I must say I hope that the situation gets resolved and the Ice Men remain at the FC. It's certainly not impossible for that to happen.




The city of Evansville seems to have indicated they are no longer dealing with the IceMen in any fashion. So, if you're still holding out for their return to the Ford Center in 2016-17, you're in for some real disappointment.

Geary overplayed his hand. Badly. He'll probably be forced to walk this proposal back once the real financial costs are spelled out to him. This was a desperation ploy, pure and simple. Hockey fans in Evansville are already paying the price for his crotchety ways.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Artie Fufkin said:


> The idea that Geary would be able to renovate this building, add more seating and floor space, and be done by the beginning of next hockey season is a complete farce.
> 
> If this is a serious proposal, the $6 million figure needs another zero.




And unless for whatever silly reason he hasn't claimed his winning ticket yet, we know Geary didn't win the lotto last week.


----------



## Artie Fufkin

mfrerkes said:


> That was my thinking as well. When Fort Wayne renovated their facility in 2002, it was much, MUCH more than $6,000,000. Like six times that figure.
> 
> This isn't a sane, workable proposal for making the IceMen profitable within ten years. This is a horribly-conceived Hail Mary pass at getting Lloyd Winnecke to pay all of Ron Geary's hockey bills. It didn't work.
> 
> Now, the big question is if the ECHL will go along with such a hare-brained scheme.




The renovation in Fort Wayne cost $35 million in 2001. Today, the same project would cost close to $50 million. The Owensboro newspaper is reporting that the project would blow the northern wall out of the Sportscenter to expand the floor and add seating. That alone would cost more than $6 million. 

Keep in mind the other things that would need to be done. A new ice plant costs at least $2 million (ask Casper, WY). If you want to replace all the seats with padded seats, like those found in the Ford Center, that will cost around $1 million. Plain plastic chairs will save a few bucks. Want a scoreboard with similar bells and whistles as the one in Ford Center? Be prepared to pony up another $1 million. Nevermind that one will probably have to build new locker rooms, weight room, training room, and buy a couple Zambonis.

For reference, the city of Watertown, NY is putting the finishing touches on the renovation of its rec rink, which, if the league is still in business, will be used next season by the Watertown Wolves. That project cost more than $10 million and took 10 months to complete.


----------



## mfrerkes

Artie Fufkin said:


> For reference, the city of Watertown, NY is putting the finishing touches on the renovation of its rec rink, which, if the league is still in business, will be used next season by the Watertown Wolves. That project cost more than $10 million and took 10 months to complete.




Geary's "Pipe Dream" in Owensboro is obviously bound to fail...and that's assuming he can come up with the necessary financing and get construction crews to follow a tightly-compressed schedule.

I'm curious to see how the ECHL is going to approach this debacle. They're probably not wanting the IceMen to go dark, but do they really want a Category 5 disaster on their hands in October? That's precisely what will happen, especially if the Ford Center lands a new hockey tenant this fall.


----------



## mk80

This is completely insane! I don't know how he got his renovation budget estimates, but he's going to spend way more than $6 million if he wants to do everything he says.

Working as manager for a local St Louis County rec rink, we bought a brand new Olympia for 100k, he'll have to buy 2 of those. As mferkes said all the Ford Center amenities like a scoreboard, etc. Blowing out a wall is all going to accumulate fast. For example here's an excerpt about the failed San Francisco Bulls upgrading the Cow Palace:

"To accommodate the Bulls, the team spent $2 million installing a new ice system and a custom-made 360-degree wraparound LED video scoreboard with its game presentation system and ten sets of speaker arrays."

Or here's an example a little closer in the Midwest when Family Arema made some upgrades in 2013 here in St Charles, MO before the Chill attempt. 

"County Council on Dec. 17 approved two bids, totaling $843,330, for a new dasher board system and an integrated scoring and video display system, which will replace the scoreboard hanging from the ceiling in the middle of the arena."


----------



## Gibbie42

Deal's done, contract was signed this afternoon. League has to approve of course. Team acknowledged that they're moving on their Facebook page, and the talk of refunds (some of us have already purchased season tickets for next year) has started to spread. A couple people who have been asking have been called, deets to come sometime next week. I too wonder about the costs but more than that, the time frame. As much as I got told it could happen, I'm having a hard time seeing that it could get done before the puck drops. 

In other news, the city announced not one but two ownership groups have stepped forward. It appears they're both in the SPHL. I'm not sure but what both sides of the table weren't working their Plan B all along.


----------



## mfrerkes

mk80 said:


> This is completely insane! I don't know how he got his renovation budget estimates, but he's going to spend way more than $6 million if he wants to do everything he says.




If this actually goes forward, he'll do everything to bare minimum specs. In fact, I bet the original proposal of 7000 seats gets cut down and he's not even going to bother with fancy scoreboards or LED ribbons in a 66-year-old facility. This will be the most no-frills arena in the ECHL...if it even gets the green light.

All this wasted money just to show Lloyd Winnecke who the "big man" really is. He could have funded at least 10 more seasons of IceMen hockey at the Ford Center with the pile of cash he's about to burn up in Kentucky. Sad.


----------



## Hurricane Ron

Not sure I understand completely all the angst coming from the Evansville fans. If the team moves to Owensboro, its still within easy driving distance. I can understand that if I live in Evansville and have been a fan I would prefer it to stay at the Ford Center...but, if that isn't possible, and the team can be in the area, that to me is preferable to the team simply closing shop; or moving to another area where it would be impossible to follow.

At the same time, the renovations at the new location appear to be significant. I'm sure the quality of the location won't match the Ford Center .. but we are talking about a minor league hockey arena. The condition of these venues across the ECHL take on all shapes and sizes.

Memphis Riverkings became the Mississippi Riverkings with their move to Southaven, MS. While the move to Southaven from Memphis is about half that of Evansville to Owensboro, its still in the area. That seems better than the team moving completely out of the area or closing shop, as has happened to so many minor league teams over the years.

I don't believe that a SPHL or USHL team would be an equivalent product for the Evansville fans, should that occur next year ... but I would think that such a scenario would doom both the Icemen in Owensboro, and whatever team would move into Evansville.

I am familiar with what the ECHL and WPHL did to hockey in Little Rock, AR. What could have been a successful market for one team from the beginning, was doomed with two teams.


----------



## mfrerkes

Hurricane Ron said:


> I don't believe that a SPHL or USHL team would be an equivalent product for the Evansville fans, should that occur next year ... but I would think that such a scenario would doom both the Icemen in Owensboro, and whatever team would move into Evansville.




Ol' Ron is cutting off his nose to spite his face, and hockey fans in Evansville are the ones who will pay the price. Geary is stark raving mad that Mayor Winnecke wouldn't pay for his hockey team, and now that the city has a potential replacement, his lunacy has reached new heights.

Geary is so motivated to destroy hockey at the Ford Center, he is willing to squander millions of his own money to finish the deed. Of course, the collateral damage will be hockey fans in Owensboro...some of whom were IceMen fans to begin with.

This is truly a stupid plan, and hopefully the ECHL Board of Governors will slam the brakes hard on this ego-driven dog and pony show.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

Hurricane Ron said:


> Not sure I understand completely all the angst coming from the Evansville fans. If the team moves to Owensboro, its still within easy driving distance. I can understand that if I live in Evansville and have been a fan I would prefer it to stay at the Ford Center...but, if that isn't possible, and the team can be in the area, that to me is preferable to the team simply closing shop; or moving to another area where it would be impossible to follow.
> 
> At the same time, the renovations at the new location appear to be significant. I'm sure the quality of the location won't match the Ford Center .. but we are talking about a minor league hockey arena. The condition of these venues across the ECHL take on all shapes and sizes.
> 
> Memphis Riverkings became the Mississippi Riverkings with their move to Southaven, MS. While the move to Southaven from Memphis is about half that of Evansville to Owensboro, its still in the area. That seems better than the team moving completely out of the area or closing shop, as has happened to so many minor league teams over the years.
> 
> I don't believe that a SPHL or USHL team would be an equivalent product for the Evansville fans, should that occur next year ... but I would think that such a scenario would doom both the Icemen in Owensboro, and whatever team would move into Evansville.
> 
> I am familiar with what the ECHL and WPHL did to hockey in Little Rock, AR. What could have been a successful market for one team from the beginning, was doomed with two teams.




Nice post.

As you said, it's not much of a drive. I drive 190 miles round trip to Columbus for games, but I'm a hard core fan and don't have a compressed living schedule.

Cincinnati had 2 teams. Killed both of them. Evansville/Owensboro cannot support 2 teams. That's a no brainer.

Best of luck to Ice Men fans. It's a goofy situation, but who knows, it could work out just fine. Geary's got a lot of cash evidently and if he commits to the building renovations in Owensboro, it probably means he's in it for the long run.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

USHL>>>CHL. Just sayin'

Though I think even though the deal is agreed to and a contract is apparently signed I have doubts it will ever take off. This could be another franchise that disappears altogether. I can totally see the construction never actually happening.


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## mfrerkes

Cyclones Rock said:


> [Geary's got a lot of cash evidently and if he commits to the building renovations in Owensboro, it probably means he's in it for the long run.




That's the ultimate irony here, isn't it? He has plenty of money to sink into a hockey franchise.

$600,000 to spend another season in Evansville's state-of-the art arena, where he has already built a loyal following? OH NO! That's just too much money, and he can't afford to do that.

$6,000,000 (probably way more) to disinfect a crumbling shack that the city of Owensboro couldn't wait to unload on somebody? BRILLIANT PLAN!!! Never mind the fact Owensboro is a fraction of Evansville's size...or that Geary has ticked off 80% of his existing fan base. It'll work just fine, because everybody wants to attend events in a 66-year-old building that was just waiting for the wrecking ball. This thing will pay for itself instantly, because that's what arenas do!

With the money Geary is about to waste in Owensboro, he could have spent another decade building up the IceMen in Evansville. But, why do that when you can crash and burn in Kentucky...simply to show Lloyd Winnecke who's the real tough guy.


----------



## JeffNYI

mfrerkes said:


> That's the ultimate irony here, isn't it? He has plenty of money to sink into a hockey franchise.
> 
> $600,000 to spend another season in Evansville's state-of-the art arena, where he has already built a loyal following? OH NO! That's just too much money, and he can't afford to do that.
> 
> $6,000,000 (probably way more) to disinfect a crumbling shack that the city of Owensboro couldn't wait to unload on somebody? BRILLIANT PLAN!!! Never mind the fact Owensboro is a fraction of Evansville's size...or that Geary has ticked off 80% of his existing fan base. It'll work just fine, because everybody wants to attend events in a 66-year-old building that was just waiting for the wrecking ball. This thing will pay for itself instantly, because that's what arenas do!
> 
> With the money Geary is about to waste in Owensboro, he could have spent another decade building up the IceMen in Evansville. But, why do that when you can crash and burn in Kentucky...simply to show Lloyd Winnecke who's the real tough guy.




Forget the mayor. Geary probably did it just to mess with you.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

mfrerkes said:


> That's the ultimate irony here, isn't it? He has plenty of money to sink into a hockey franchise.
> 
> $600,000 to spend another season in Evansville's state-of-the art arena, where he has already built a loyal following? OH NO! That's just too much money, and he can't afford to do that.
> 
> $6,000,000 (probably way more) to disinfect a crumbling shack that the city of Owensboro couldn't wait to unload on somebody? BRILLIANT PLAN!!! Never mind the fact Owensboro is a fraction of Evansville's size...or that Geary has ticked off 80% of his existing fan base. It'll work just fine, because everybody wants to attend events in a 66-year-old building that was just waiting for the wrecking ball. This thing will pay for itself instantly, because that's what arenas do!
> 
> With the money Geary is about to waste in Owensboro, he could have spent another decade building up the IceMen in Evansville. But, why do that when you can crash and burn in Kentucky...simply to show Lloyd Winnecke who's the real tough guy.




It takes two to tango. 

Geary, obviously, has declared war on the Ford Center and the Mayor. I would doubt that the Mayor is Little Miss Innocent in this situation. I wouldn't know Llyod Winnecke if I bumped into him, but I've met a few politicians in my day and they certainly haven't lacked hubris. Geary obviously has an ego of his own. Probably more a case of two egos clashing than dollars and cents at the end of the day.

I still don't think that the Owensboro move is going to happen. It makes zero sense economically-UNLESS a casino or some significant amount of gambling machinery is part of the package.


----------



## mfrerkes

JeffNYI said:


> Forget the mayor. Geary probably did it just to mess with you.




Given the pathological small-mindedness of Ron Geary, that wouldn't surprise me either. Unfortunately, for Ronald, I find this move of his far more entertaining than exasperating. If I ever see him (not likely) I will thank him for the comedic value of the events of this past week.

Sadly, it's the fans in Evansville who don't find this Owensboro gambit quite as entertaining and/or comedic as I do.


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## mfrerkes

Cyclones Rock said:


> It makes zero sense economically-UNLESS a casino or some significant amount of gambling machinery is part of the package.




It makes zero sense whether slot machines and roulette tables are involved, or not. If Geary wants to have a gambling parlor in Owensboro, he should just do that. Spending millions on a dumpy ice rink isn't going to increase his profit margins from operating a casino.


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## Cyclones Rock

mfrerkes said:


> *It makes zero sense whether slot machines and roulette tables are involved, or not.* If Geary wants to have a gambling parlor in Owensboro, he should just do that. Spending millions on a dumpy ice rink isn't going to increase his profit margins from operating a casino.




You work for the mayor? You seem to have it out for Geary. 

A complete casino operation is a big money deal. A combo casino/entertainment complex is a pretty common strategy. No doubt that a 66 year old facility doesn't seem to be a very good fit. I really don't have any clue on what may or may not be a good strategy for Owensboro with respect to casino building.

Once again, I don't see this Owensboro move/ice rink renovation coming to pass save for a casino option. Also, given that Geary owns a race track/VLT complex in Henderson, KY, it really doesn't make sense unless he plans to close Ellis Park, which I doubt.

I'll guess a suspension of the Ice Men franchise or a deal with the City will be what ultimately happens.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

mfrerkes said:


> It makes zero sense whether slot machines and roulette tables are involved, or not. If Geary wants to have a gambling parlor in Owensboro, he should just do that. Spending millions on a dumpy ice rink isn't going to increase his profit margins from operating a casino.




Spending millions on a dumpy ice rink isn't going to increase his profit margins from operating a casino... but it may have a significant effect on how much income tax he pays on the profit from operating that casino...


----------



## Gibbie42

In fact it does seem that gambling is involved. Part of the deal with Owensboro was that he'd be allowed to open an off-track betting facility in Owensboro (remember he also own Ellis Park Racing in Henderson). Apparently this is something he's wanted for years. The city of Evansville wouldn't offer it because the Tropicana is investing in a landbased casino complex due to begin construction soon (they current operate a river boat). Mayor Payne offered that in the deal. In fact, although the text doesnt' say it, the video has a quip from Ron Payne that says something on the order of I told him he could get an OTB if he brought the IceMen to Owensboro.

http://www.14news.com/story/31015120/evansville-icemen-officially-moving-to-owensboro

So it appears that the whole thing may have revolved around that deal. Whether or not he was ever serious in negotiating with the city, I do not know. I certainly believed that he was. But if he wanted to go to Owensboro why not just be upfront about that? It's a very tough time right now. I'm angry, sad and disappointed all at the same time. 

And poor Joe Babik at the league must be tearing his hair out. You send an e-mail to them about the IceMen and you get this response:



> "Thank you for your email and support of the IceMen. The situation surrounding the team has not been resolved. No relocation of any team can occur without the approval of the ECHL Board of Governors. We will get a complete update on the team's plans at our upcoming League Meetings in February."




He must just have that ready to copy/paste, everyone is getting the same verbiage. What a mess this all is.


----------



## mfrerkes

Cyclones Rock said:


> You work for the mayor? You seem to have it out for Geary.




Watching a guy completely screw over his fan base because he wants a free ride from the city of Evansville (and/or a horse-betting facility in Owensboro) does make me dislike the guy a whole bunch. I'm not alone. Read the comments on the IceMen's Facebook page. What I've said about Geary is very tame by comparison.



Cyclones Rock said:


> I'll guess a suspension of the Ice Men franchise or a deal with the City will be what ultimately happens.




There will be no last-second deal with the city of Evansville. Geary has burnt that bridge to a crisp. The city council is no longer going to deal with a guy who is bat-dung crazy. In fact, the Ford Center probably has a new tenant lined up, but is waiting for the ink to dry before going public. Plus, they need this current hockey crapstorm to die down so it won't look premeditated.

Suspension of the franchise? That seems possible, but I'm not 100% sure the ECHL will go nuclear on Geary. They may roll the dice on this proposal if Geary can blow enough smoke up their...whatever...to convince the BOG it will work.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Joe Babik isn't good for anything.


----------



## STL Blues Fan

Dang my wife's parents live in Evansville and we go see the Icemen sometimes when we go there. Sucks they probably won't be there any more.  If they do move to Owensboro though it isn't that far away so we could probably see a game or two there if the franchise doesn't get suspended.

Edit: The Ford Center is nice. They should negotiate for an AHL franchise instead.


----------



## Woo Hockey

IceMen owner cried wolf far too often


----------



## mfrerkes

Evansville's mayor is set to make an announcement tomorrow about hockey at the Ford Center:

http://www.courierpress.com/news/lo...c7-937a-5ad2-e053-0100007f3d80-367975631.html

My guess is they've secured another team in a different league. It would make little sense for the mayor to hold a press conference announcing they don't have a Ford Center hockey tenant lined up for this fall. But, this Evansville hockey drama has been largely unpredictable, so anything is possible.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Can't imagine its that the icemen are staying and you're probably right its a different league. I can't see the demand for the ECHl to return there from a league standpoint.


----------



## My Cozen Dylan

USHL would be their best bet IMO. But I bet it'll be SPHL.


----------



## mfrerkes

jawallstar1 said:


> USHL would be their best bet IMO. But I bet it'll be SPHL.




You would be correct.

http://www.courierpress.com/topstor...nnecke-hockey-press-conference-368072581.html

The team has yet to be named. Tickets will supposedly be cheaper than the IceMen's were. Once you figure how much time and money a person could invest driving to the SportsDump in Owensboro...I'll bet the Evansville SPHL club is going to peel away a massive share of local families who want to watch hockey.

Geary looks like an even bigger idiot right about now.


----------



## Hurricane Ron

So if a lease in Evansville can be worked out with an SPHL team, why couldn't one be worked out with the Icemen? Does the new owner of the SPHL team need a loss for a tax write off? 

Has the ECHL "officially" approved the move of the Icemen to Kentucky?


----------



## mfrerkes

Hurricane Ron said:


> So if a lease in Evansville can be worked out with an SPHL team, why couldn't one be worked out with the Icemen? Does the new owner of the SPHL team need a loss for a tax write off?
> 
> Has the ECHL "officially" approved the move of the Icemen to Kentucky?




To answer your first question, the hang-up on working out a deal with the IceMen was Ron Geary's oversized ego. The new owner is apparently more grounded in reality and doesn't expect the city to pay his bills.

The second question is still shrouded in mystery. If the ECHL approves this insane plan to relocate the IceMen to Owensboro, the league is openly courting disaster. But, that is what minor league hockey does best...so I'm betting the BOG has given a green light to the move.

I'm not sure Geary is going to follow through, even if he wants to. No respectable bank is going to loan him $7 million to redecorate a dump that probably should be torn down. Unless he plans on financing this himself (not likely, since the dude is quite literally a cheapskate) I don't see where the money is coming from to make it happen.

I fully expect some awkward announcement in the middle of May stating that Geary could not secure the necessary financing. That's good news for him, since an economically-priced SPHL product in Evansville will vacuum up what few crumbs remain of his fan support.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

mfrerkes said:


> To answer your first question, the hang-up on working out a deal with the IceMen was Ron Geary's oversized ego. The new owner is apparently more grounded in reality and doesn't expect the city to pay his bills.
> 
> The second question is still shrouded in mystery. If the ECHL approves this insane plan to relocate the IceMen to Owensboro, the league is openly courting disaster. But, that is what minor league hockey does best...so I'm betting the BOG has given a green light to the move.
> 
> I'm not sure Geary is going to follow through, even if he wants to. No respectable bank is going to loan him $7 million to redecorate a dump that probably should be torn down. Unless he plans on financing this himself (not likely, since the dude is quite literally a cheapskate) I don't see where the money is coming from to make it happen.
> 
> I fully expect some awkward announcement in the middle of May stating that Geary could not secure the necessary financing. That's good news for him, since an economically-priced SPHL product in Evansville will vacuum up what few crumbs remain of his fan support.




Ron Geary....the Can Newton of the ECHL. 

Even if they approve it good luck being ready for the fall. Then time will pass and eventually it will never happen will be my guess.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

mfrerkes said:


> You would be correct.
> 
> http://www.courierpress.com/topstor...nnecke-hockey-press-conference-368072581.html
> 
> The team has yet to be named. Tickets will supposedly be cheaper than the IceMen's were. Once you figure how much time and money a person could invest driving to the SportsDump in Owensboro...I'll bet the Evansville SPHL club is going to peel away a massive share of local families who want to watch hockey.
> 
> Geary looks like an even bigger idiot right about now.




Well I'd hope the tickets are cheaper since its a level drop.


----------



## royals119

mfrerkes said:


> To answer your first question, the hang-up on working out a deal with the IceMen was Ron Geary's oversized ego. The new owner is apparently more grounded in reality and doesn't expect the city to pay his bills.




The real question is, did the city give the new SPHL owner a better deal than they were offering Geary, or did the new SPHL owner take the deal that Geary turned down - and in that case, how is he going to keep a lower budget team afloat with a lease that supposedly is untenable for an ECHL team?


----------



## Scoutin1

Ok, so, the Ford Center couldn't count on an ECHL franchise to over-pay in order to cover operating costs for a venue that should never have been built, but a SPHL franchise will. Everyone may as well just dump their last dollar betting on how long this fiasco will last. I set the over/under at two seasons. Many want to make Geary the sole villain, but the truth will reveal something different, and every hockey fan in Evansville will ultimately be the loser. Will the Purple Aces see a sudden, inexplicable raise in rent...?


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Never thought the icemen would last this long to begin with. The team that started in a rec rink.


----------



## Hurricane Ron

So why couldn't the City of Evansville come up with a lease agreement for the Icemen? The Sin Bin has a letter from the SPHL welcoming Evansville, and noting that ticket prices should be half of what the Icemen have been charging. That would indicate the lease amount has to be less than what has been charged...or the new owner just needs a loss for tax purposes.

As there hasn't been a formal announcement from the ECHL regarding the shifting of the franchise to Owensboro, KY, makes you wonder if the owner of the Icemen won't have another option of moving the team to another city; or if the team goes dormant for a season.

In any event, if I were an Icemen supporter, I'd be extremely hacked off by these developments.


----------



## Scoutin1

Hurricane Ron said:


> So why couldn't the City of Evansville come up with a lease agreement for the Icemen? The Sin Bin has a letter from the SPHL welcoming Evansville, and noting that ticket prices should be half of what the Icemen have been charging. That would indicate the lease amount has to be less than what has been charged...or the new owner just needs a loss for tax purposes.
> 
> As there hasn't been a formal announcement from the ECHL regarding the shifting of the franchise to Owensboro, KY, makes you wonder if the owner of the Icemen won't have another option of moving the team to another city; or if the team goes dormant for a season.
> 
> In any event, if I were an Icemen supporter, I'd be extremely hacked off by these developments.




It may be due the fact that Evansville doesn't want the negative PR hit. The city wanted both the Icemen and the Purple Aces to cover the operating expenses of the Ford Center. That's too much for either to finance. But hey, make Geary the scapegoat and a narrative can be framed to soften any negative impact on the arena and its management. Meanwhile, losses for the Ford Center steadily grow.


----------



## Clinton Comets EHL

Hurricane Ron said:


> So why couldn't the City of Evansville come up with a lease agreement for the Icemen? The Sin Bin has a letter from the SPHL welcoming Evansville, and noting that ticket prices should be half of what the Icemen have been charging. That would indicate the lease amount has to be less than what has been charged...or the new owner just needs a loss for tax purposes.
> 
> As there hasn't been a formal announcement from the ECHL regarding the shifting of the franchise to Owensboro, KY, makes you wonder if the owner of the Icemen won't have another option of moving the team to another city; or if the team goes dormant for a season.
> 
> In any event, if I were an Icemen supporter, I'd be extremely hacked off by these developments.




I doubt the ticket prices are going to be half' it's impossible to even think about survival. I agree I would be hacked off if I was an Icemen supporter.


----------



## JDogindy

Hurricane Ron said:


> So why couldn't the City of Evansville come up with a lease agreement for the Icemen? The Sin Bin has a letter from the SPHL welcoming Evansville, and noting that ticket prices should be half of what the Icemen have been charging. That would indicate the lease amount has to be less than what has been charged...or the new owner just needs a loss for tax purposes.
> 
> As there hasn't been a formal announcement from the ECHL regarding the shifting of the franchise to Owensboro, KY, makes you wonder if the owner of the Icemen won't have another option of moving the team to another city; or if the team goes dormant for a season.
> 
> In any event, if I were an Icemen supporter, I'd be extremely hacked off by these developments.




Yeah, I'd really would be pissed.

Man, it sucks that Indiana's losing one of the 3 ECHL clubs, but considering all this, a part of me is not surprised. I think they might've done a fair deal with the SPHL guy because, unlike Geary, he was more willing, but hopefully they'll make things cheaper in concessions, too.

So... does this mean the Icemen ARE moving to Owensboro, or this is the end of the ECHL incarnation of this team?


----------



## mfrerkes

Hurricane Ron said:


> So why couldn't the City of Evansville come up with a lease agreement for the Icemen?




They did come up with an agreement for the IceMen. Geary rejected it, and ran off to Owensboro in a huff. The city of Evansville offered the exact same agreement to the new SPHL owner, and he signed it.

The problem in all of this hasn't been the city of Evansville. It has been Ron Geary. He expected the city to subsidize his losses. They weren't going to do that, no matter how big of a public tantrum he threw.


----------



## mfrerkes

royals119 said:


> The real question is, did the city give the new SPHL owner a better deal than they were offering Geary, or did the new SPHL owner take the deal that Geary turned down - and in that case, how is he going to keep a lower budget team afloat with a lease that supposedly is untenable for an ECHL team?




The Ford Center gave the SPHL owner the exact same offer Geary refused to sign. There was no favoritism.

Economics in the SPHL are based around lower overhead. The money a typical SPHL team spends on talent and league-related fees are significantly less than the ECHL.


----------



## Gibbie42

royals119 said:


> The real question is, did the city give the new SPHL owner a better deal than they were offering Geary, or did the new SPHL owner take the deal that Geary turned down - and in that case, how is he going to keep a lower budget team afloat with a lease that supposedly is untenable for an ECHL team?




This. Apparently the answer is by partnering with VenuWorks who had been aiding the city in the lease negotiations with the IceMen. 



Scoutin1 said:


> Ok, so, the Ford Center couldn't count on an ECHL franchise to over-pay in order to cover operating costs for a venue that should never have been built, but a SPHL franchise will. Everyone may as well just dump their last dollar betting on how long this fiasco will last. I set the over/under at two seasons. Many want to make Geary the sole villain, but the truth will reveal something different, and every hockey fan in Evansville will ultimately be the loser. Will the Purple Aces see a sudden, inexplicable raise in rent...?




And this. The Aces are currently under the same lease terms that the IceMen are, and by all accounts suffering. Word I'm hearing is that next season they're looking to move all of the women's games back on campus and some of the men's games, because they can't afford the current contract. Their lease is up as well. Meanwhile this sudden involvement of VenuWorks in the new team looks shady as hell. 



Hurricane Ron said:


> So why couldn't the City of Evansville come up with a lease agreement for the Icemen? The Sin Bin has a letter from the SPHL welcoming Evansville, and noting that ticket prices should be half of what the Icemen have been charging. That would indicate the lease amount has to be less than what has been charged...or the new owner just needs a loss for tax purposes.
> 
> As there hasn't been a formal announcement from the ECHL regarding the shifting of the franchise to Owensboro, KY, makes you wonder if the owner of the Icemen won't have another option of moving the team to another city; or if the team goes dormant for a season.
> 
> In any event, if I were an Icemen supporter, I'd be extremely hacked off by these developments.




The lease is supposed to be the same as the final offer to the IceMen. Time and public records will tell. And I am. 



Scoutin1 said:


> It may be due the fact that Evansville doesn't want the negative PR hit. The city wanted both the Icemen and the Purple Aces to cover the operating expenses of the Ford Center. That's too much for either to finance. But hey, make Geary the scapegoat and a narrative can be framed to soften any negative impact on the arena and its management. Meanwhile, losses for the Ford Center steadily grow.




I traveled to Ft. Wayne a few weeks ago to see the Komets-IceMen game (which we one, thank you very much  ) After the game a small group of fans were down by the IceMen locker room waiting for them to head to the bus. Michael Franke stopped by to chat. He had been attending meetings with the city at the request of the IceMen. He looked at us and told us that the mayor was trying to finance the Ford Center on the backs of the Aces and the IceMen and that it was not fair. I think he was as frustrated with the process as Geary was.

I really want to know the details of this partnership with VenuWorks. How can an entity that was negotiating with the team, suddenly take a stake in the new team. And if they're willing to partner with a team to an unknown extent, why not offer to partner with the existing one? There's some backdoor dealings going on here and I don't like it.


----------



## royals119

Gibbie42 said:


> This. Apparently the answer is by partnering with VenuWorks who had been aiding the city in the lease negotiations with the IceMen.
> 
> The lease is supposed to be the same as the final offer to the IceMen. Time and public records will tell. And I am.
> 
> I really want to know the details of this partnership with VenuWorks. How can an entity that was negotiating with the team, suddenly take a stake in the new team. And if they're willing to partner with a team to an unknown extent, why not offer to partner with the existing one? There's some backdoor dealings going on here and I don't like it.



It will be interesting to see what exactly is going on. Sounds like maybe the arena operator (VenuWorks) is going to purchase and operate the team themselves. Maybe they figure they can use their current booking, sales, and operations staff to run the team also. If they can get an SPHL franchise cheaply (I have no idea what they cost), and run a bare bones operation with lower player costs maybe they figure they can turn a profit. Or if not, at least get more people in the building via cheaper ticket prices, and make up the difference on concessions. 

SMG tried this with the Royals for a couple years. When the Kings sold their half of the team to the arena authority they tried to cut costs by having one staff run the building and the team. There were advantages and disadvantages to it, but the budget cuts didn't result in increased ticket sales or cash flow, and they sold the team to a local businessman after two years of losses.

Mostafa Afr did this in Elmira too. He was the arena manager and the team owner, and he would shift costs from one to the other to show a profit on the building and a loss on the team. VenuWorks seems more on the up and up, but they might have incentives in each contract that result in some of the same type of things going on.


----------



## Clinton Comets EHL

royals119 said:


> It will be interesting to see what exactly is going on. Sounds like maybe the arena operator (VenuWorks) is going to purchase and operate the team themselves. Maybe they figure they can use their current booking, sales, and operations staff to run the team also. If they can get an SPHL franchise cheaply (I have no idea what they cost), and run a bare bones operation with lower player costs maybe they figure they can turn a profit. Or if not, at least get more people in the building via cheaper ticket prices, and make up the difference on concessions.
> 
> SMG tried this with the Royals for a couple years. When the Kings sold their half of the team to the arena authority they tried to cut costs by having one staff run the building and the team. There were advantages and disadvantages to it, but the budget cuts didn't result in increased ticket sales or cash flow, and they sold the team to a local businessman after two years of losses.
> 
> Mostafa Afr did this in Elmira too. He was the arena manager and the team owner, and he would shift costs from one to the other to show a profit on the building and a loss on the team. VenuWorks seems more on the up and up, but they might have incentives in each contract that result in some of the same type of things going on.




My guess is the tickets are not going to be significantly cheaper, if at all.


----------



## Scoutin1

It appears that Gibbie is one of the Evansville hockey fans that stand to lose in this scenario. I'm truly sorry, Gibbie, you deserve a better outcome. If you want to get on board with the Orange and Black Machine, we'll save a spot for you!


----------



## JDogindy

Scoutin1 said:


> It appears that Gibbie is one of the Evansville hockey fans that stand to lose in this scenario. I'm truly sorry, Gibbie, you deserve a better outcome. If you want to get on board with the Orange and Black Machine, we'll save a spot for you!




Don't want to make this a bidding war, but there's another team in Indiana to consider if you're not interested in the Komets Dynasty.


----------



## mfrerkes

royals119 said:


> It will be interesting to see what exactly is going on. Sounds like maybe the arena operator (VenuWorks) is going to purchase and operate the team themselves.




Not bloody likely. The team already has an owner. His name is Mike Hall.


----------



## Scoutin1

JDogindy said:


> Don't want to make this a bidding war, but there's another team in Indiana to consider if you're not interested in the Komets Dynasty.




Well played.  And I'll tell you, the renovation at the Coliseum is first rate! It's an outstanding facility. I wish the Fuel nothing but the best.


----------



## Gibbie42

Thanks guys, but Owensboro (assuming there's actually a puck drop there next season) is not very far away. If not that, well, Nashville is 2 1/2 hours away, might talk the mister into a partial season down there. Really depends on how it all shakes out and who exactly is involved. I've heard names that don't make me happy.

And Ferkes is right, there's a putative owner, he's set up to take the fall if things go south. He's a nice guy, I hope he doesn't lose his kids college funds, and his house.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

royals119 said:


> It will be interesting to see what exactly is going on. Sounds like maybe the arena operator (VenuWorks) is going to purchase and operate the team themselves. Maybe they figure they can use their current booking, sales, and operations staff to run the team also. If they can get an SPHL franchise cheaply (I have no idea what they cost), and run a bare bones operation with lower player costs maybe they figure they can turn a profit. Or if not, at least get more people in the building via cheaper ticket prices, and make up the difference on concessions.
> 
> SMG tried this with the Royals for a couple years. When the Kings sold their half of the team to the arena authority they tried to cut costs by having one staff run the building and the team. There were advantages and disadvantages to it, but the budget cuts didn't result in increased ticket sales or cash flow, and they sold the team to a local businessman after two years of losses.
> 
> Mostafa Afr did this in Elmira too. He was the arena manager and the team owner, and he would shift costs from one to the other to show a profit on the building and a loss on the team. VenuWorks seems more on the up and up, but they might have incentives in each contract that result in some of the same type of things going on.




He also had SMG in here for one season. That....didn't go so well.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Gibbie42 said:


> Thanks guys, but Owensboro (assuming there's actually a puck drop there next season) is not very far away. If not that, well, Nashville is 2 1/2 hours away, might talk the mister into a partial season down there. Really depends on how it all shakes out and who exactly is involved. I've heard names that don't make me happy.
> 
> And Ferkes is right, there's a putative owner, he's set up to take the fall if things go south. He's a nice guy, I hope he doesn't lose his kids college funds, and his house.




Well if its that risky where that could happen maybe he shouldn't buy the team. Minor league sports in most cases is a losing proposition.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

JDogindy said:


> Don't want to make this a bidding war, but there's another team in Indiana to consider if you're not interested in the Komets Dynasty.




How are the Furl doing? I know on the ice not so grand. About .500 which isn't horrendous as last year. I had doubts that it would work and last a long time


----------



## crimsonace

Sports Enthusiast said:


> How are the Furl doing? I know on the ice not so grand. About .500 which isn't horrendous as last year. I had doubts that it would work and last a long time




Doing fairly well. On-ice, around .500 and trending a positive direction, which isn't bad for the only true expansion team in the league the last two years. Front office is doing well, and the team is gaining steam and attention in the local market. A good lease & relationship with the Fairgrounds and a really nicely-renovated building helps. Having the Chicago affiliation moves the needle with quite a few people in this market (there are a lot of Chicago transplants, and neophyte hockey fans around here have largely adopted the Blackhawks as their team, at least the last few years). 

Not sure why one would have doubts. Indy has had a hockey team every year but one (and a half - when Nelson Skalbania folded the Racers halfway through the WHA's last season) since 1974, and while franchises have shifted leagues due to a lot of factors that have nothing to do with attendance (the IHL's rising costs, the CHL's incredible travel, for example), the fan base has stayed pretty steady throughout several leagues and levels. A lot more stability in minor pro hockey now than before, and Indy's a prime market. A northern city with a metro population of 2 million that has a solid hockey fanbase is always going to be an attractive market.


----------



## BladesFan10

Someone I recently talked to that was at the BOG meeting has told me not is extremely unlikely that the Icemen will be playing next season and their current plans are a complete disaster. He also told me it is entirely possible that the Icemen never return to the league, something some owners prefer to give the league an even number of teams for 2017.

I was also told that when Geary went to the city to get a reduction in his lease, the city's offer was almost double what he was already paying. Geary threw a temper tantrum and is now on his way to Owensboro.

On the SPHL front, the team supposedly signed the original offer given to Geary. However, the ECHL doubts this team will survive in Evansville unless it has an owner willing to continually dump piles of money into the organization year after year and it is unlikely the ECHL will be returning to the market in the future.


----------



## Gibbie42

I don't know why that he keeps being characterized as "throwing a temper tantrum." He's angry, yes, because he feels like he's been disrespected and dismissed. He said to me directly that he'd done thousands of leases and had never failed to get one done before and that he'd never been treated like that in his life. What he said from the beginning was that he felt like they were trying to force him out. If throwing in the towel after that and looking for an alternative is a temper tantrum, well ok. I do worry about the plans in Oboro though. It seems too ambitious and seems hastily thrown together (despite the haters who decided he planned it a year ago). I have doubts it can get done but I'm hearing that they're moving forward with prelims that need done (soil testing and the like). Did you hear whether or not the vote went forward? I haven't asked directly but I'd heard something about it being tabled for 45 days.

You're correct, that the new owner is allegedly signing the same agreement (though it must be noted equates to less money for the city because there are fewer dates) that the IceMen left on the table. This is part of the reason I suspect some back door dealings. Unless he's really got piles of cash hiding and just lives rather modestly, I don't see how he can swing the lease.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

BladesFan10 said:


> Someone I recently talked to that was at the BOG meeting has told me not is extremely unlikely that the Icemen will be playing next season and their current plans are a complete disaster. He also told me it is entirely possible that the Icemen never return to the league, something some owners prefer to give the league an even number of teams for 2017.
> 
> I was also told that when Geary went to the city to get a reduction in his lease, the city's offer was almost double what he was already paying. Geary threw a temper tantrum and is now on his way to Owensboro.
> 
> On the SPHL front, the team supposedly signed the original offer given to Geary. However, the ECHL doubts this team will survive in Evansville unless it has an owner willing to continually dump piles of money into the organization year after year and it is unlikely the ECHL will be returning to the market in the future.




One wouldn't have even needed to be at that meeting to have that feeling that they'll never ice. I think that's been somewhat uttered in this thread already. They certainly won't ice this year.

But I am curious what other league moves did you hear from this person who was there? 

I think by 2017 the league will see a couple of folds. Brampton, Wheeling and Elmira are guesses.


----------



## BladesFan10

Sports Enthusiast said:


> One wouldn't have even needed to be at that meeting to have that feeling that they'll never ice. I think that's been somewhat uttered in this thread already. They certainly won't ice this year.
> 
> But I am curious what other league moves did you hear from this person who was there?
> 
> I think by 2017 the league will see a couple of folds. Brampton, Wheeling and Elmira are guesses.




While I did not ask him about those team this time, I have had conversations in the past with him and at each of those times nothing was ever brought up in the league meetings besides the changes of ownership. From what I've gathered over through those conversations regarding Wheeling and Elmira, no news is good news. Again though, this was also before Elmiras current set of problems.

On Brampton however, he did drop a hint the other night that the league wants more west coast teams with a goal of 30 total while also hinting in the past that their financials were a big issue for them.

Moving Brampton, Elmira and Evansville franchises out west along with adding one more expansion franchise is not entirely out of the realm of possibility especially with how trigger happy the ECHL is and would also move Fort Wayne, Indy and Cincinnati back to the east along with Worcester.

This last paragraph is entirely my opinion though, so take it for the grain of salt that it's worth.


----------



## BladesFan10

Gibbie42 said:


> I don't know why that he keeps being characterized as "throwing a temper tantrum." He's angry, yes, because he feels like he's been disrespected and dismissed. He said to me directly that he'd done thousands of leases and had never failed to get one done before and that he'd never been treated like that in his life. What he said from the beginning was that he felt like they were trying to force him out. If throwing in the towel after that and looking for an alternative is a temper tantrum, well ok. I do worry about the plans in Oboro though. It seems too ambitious and seems hastily thrown together (despite the haters who decided he planned it a year ago). I have doubts it can get done but I'm hearing that they're moving forward with prelims that need done (soil testing and the like). Did you hear whether or not the vote went forward? I haven't asked directly but I'd heard something about it being tabled for 45 days.




While he did not state if the vote was tabled or not, what was stated was that the Icemen franchise was going ahead with their plans in Owensboro. His statement of they are almost certainly going to miss next season could mean the next vote being to voluntarily suspended the franchise for one season.

To me, while definetly not the same situation, I have a feeling this could be a Columbia Inferno type situation with the following franchise slowly fading away out of sight, out of mind.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

BladesFan10 said:


> While I did not ask him about those team this time, I have had conversations in the past with him and at each of those times nothing was ever brought up in the league meetings besides the changes of ownership. From what I've gathered over through those conversations regarding Wheeling and Elmira, no news is good news. Again though, this was also before Elmiras current set of problems.
> 
> On Brampton however, he did drop a hint the other night that the league wants more west coast teams with a goal of 30 total while also hinting in the past that their financials were a big issue for them.
> 
> Moving Brampton, Elmira and Evansville franchises out west along with adding one more expansion franchise is not entirely out of the realm of possibility especially with how trigger happy the ECHL is and would also move Fort Wayne, Indy and Cincinnati back to the east along with Worcester.
> 
> This last paragraph is entirely my opinion though, so take it for the grain of salt that it's worth.




I was hoping with AHL going West the opposite would happen. More teams in the East. I mean what's left in the California market for the ECHL?


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## mfrerkes

Gibbie42 said:


> He's a nice guy, I hope he doesn't lose his kids college funds, and his house.




Unfortunately, minor league hockey isn't a business you pursue to make big money. In most cities, the venture will lose money even if local fan support is decent. Having an owner with deep pockets who is willing to spend -- and take losses -- is a must if you want a team to stick around.

Whether Mr. Hall has that mindset (let alone the requisite financial portfolio) nobody really knows at this moment. Time will tell. It was obvious, though, that Geary was expecting the city government to bear much of the huge tab his operation was ringing up in the ECHL. I hope Mr. Hall can make it work. The fans in Evansville deserve stable ownership.



Gibbie42 said:


> I don't know why that he keeps being characterized as "throwing a temper tantrum." He's angry, yes, because he feels like he's been disrespected and dismissed.




I'm not among those who believe Geary was planning this Owensboro move for over a year. This was clearly a hastily-arranged "Hail Mary" pass to get Winnecke's attention. It failed. That's where Geary is coming off like a spoiled child in my estimation.

Had he simply stated the lease negotiations were unproductive and untenable, then walked away professionally, I'd have a much different opinion of him. Instead, he came up with a certifiably crazy plan that actually costs him 10-15 times more than signing a Ford Center lease. It makes no sense to dump millions into an antiquated arena where the built-in hockey following is much smaller. Yet, that's exactly what Geary is set to do.

The action reeks of someone who is cutting off their nose to spite their face. I just hope Geary backs away from it before he really damages the IceMen.


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## BladesFan10

Sports Enthusiast said:


> I was hoping with AHL going West the opposite would happen. More teams in the East. I mean what's left in the California market for the ECHL?




California in my mind is gone outside of a single team away from the AHL and NHl sites. In my mind, I think the league might be targeting Arizona (Prescott Valley perhaps), Oregon, Washington and other cities in the Western Midwest.

For Prescott Valley, we have already seen owners willing to spend big money to keep teams going, I don't think it would be too shocking to either see the original owners or new owners ressurect the Sundogs.


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## Sports Enthusiast

BladesFan10 said:


> California in my mind is gone outside of a single team away from the AHL and NHl sites. In my mind, I think the league might be targeting Arizona (Prescott Valley perhaps), Oregon, Washington and other cities in the Western Midwest.
> 
> For Prescott Valley, we have already seen owners willing to spend big money to keep teams going, I don't think it would be too shocking to either see the original owners or new owners ressurect the Sundogs.




I guess Oregon and Washington would be "interesting"

Ouch the Sundogs? They seemed to serve as a punching bag mostly.


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## JackalsKnuckles

BladesFan10 said:


> California in my mind is gone outside of a single team away from the AHL and NHl sites. In my mind, I think the league might be targeting Arizona (Prescott Valley perhaps), Oregon, Washington and other cities in the Western Midwest.
> 
> For Prescott Valley, we have already seen owners willing to spend big money to keep teams going, I don't think it would be too shocking to either see the original owners or new owners ressurect the Sundogs.




Washington is locked up with the WHL and fans seem very happy with that product, as they should be as it is way more entertaining that the ECHL and has more stable rosters and organizations as well. Wenatchee is in the BCHL now and has a good building but that seems like the best fit for them. Bellingham is the only other city of size that could host a team but the Sportsplex is too small for a ECHL team, and that city would be a better fit for the BCHL if they ever move up from the NorPac Tier 3 team that they have there.

The Tacoma Dome is open, but that is only a half hour from Kent, where the Thunderbirds play so I doubt that would work.

Oregon has the Winterhawks, and the rest of the larger towns along I-5 are mostly college towns.


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## BladesFan10

JackalsKnuckles said:


> Washington is locked up with the WHL and fans seem very happy with that product, as they should be as it is way more entertaining that the ECHL and has more stable rosters and organizations as well. Wenatchee is in the BCHL now and has a good building but that seems like the best fit for them. Bellingham is the only other city of size that could host a team but the Sportsplex is too small for a ECHL team, and that city would be a better fit for the BCHL if they ever move up from the NorPac Tier 3 team that they have there.
> 
> The Tacoma Dome is open, but that is only a half hour from Kent, where the Thunderbirds play so I doubt that would work.
> 
> Oregon has the Winterhawks, and the rest of the larger towns along I-5 are mostly college towns.




In my mind it is also hard to picture more Western teams. I could possibly see some additional Midwestern teams, but I agree, finding a niche in Cali, Oregon and Washington will be tough. Once again though, that hasn't stopped the ECHL from trying in the past.


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## JDogindy

BladesFan10 said:


> In my mind it is also hard to picture more Western teams. I could possibly see some additional Midwestern teams, but I agree, finding a niche in Cali, Oregon and Washington will be tough. Once again though, that hasn't stopped the ECHL from trying in the past.




I'm not saying it can't work, but I'm believing that they won't be against the decision to at least try, even though viable markets are few and far between.

I would prefer a return of New Mexico, but that's not gonna happen. If anything, going east or south is the most likely avenue teams might consider, especially as the AHL is transitioning out of its traditional East Coast stronghold with NHL clubs having more say in their farm teams.

As for the SPHL guy, I think what might help him, even though Evansville's offering the same deal, is the fact that fewer games means less money spent on rent, and lower costs with players would be another factor. Of course, if it's to work out, the city would have to at least provide discounts to tenants that would fill the Ford Center multiple times (University of Evansville and the Evansville SPHL team), and the concessions get reduced a bit. I still find the idea of spending $10 on beer to be outrageous with a minor league hockey team.


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## crimsonace

JDogindy said:


> I'm not saying it can't work, but I'm believing that they won't be against the decision to at least try, even though viable markets are few and far between.
> 
> I would prefer a return of New Mexico, but that's not gonna happen. If anything, going east or south is the most likely avenue teams might consider, especially as the AHL is transitioning out of its traditional East Coast stronghold with NHL clubs having more say in their farm teams.




One thing to consider - the WHL has pretty deep roots in the big PNW markets (Seattle, Portland, Tacoma, even the Tri-Cities area) and is pretty entrenched in the major junior product. I think the Midwest/Great Plains offers the best area for growth for those last 2 franchises and any moves. Most of the really viable West Coast markets are already in the AHL, WHL or ECHL (Fresno or San Francisco/Oakland - pending a viable building - might be an exception).


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## Sports Enthusiast

BladesFan10 said:


> In my mind it is also hard to picture more Western teams. I could possibly see some additional Midwestern teams, but I agree, finding a niche in Cali, Oregon and Washington will be tough. Once again though, that hasn't stopped the ECHL from trying in the past.




They should look at Bozeman, Montana.

/thread


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## Scoutin1

Sports Enthusiast said:


> They should look at Bozeman, Montana.
> 
> /thread




Have you ever been to Bozeman? I have. There's lots for the outdoors man to love, but hockey isn't one of them.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Scoutin1 said:


> Have you ever been to Bozeman? I have. There's lots for the outdoors man to love, but hockey isn't one of them.




No, I haven't. I was being sarcastic because I just had happened to watch the Big Bang episode where Sheldon moved to Bozeman. He called the residents Bozites. The Bozeman Bozites would be formidable in this league if they ever had a chance to form!


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## Scoutin1

Sports Enthusiast said:


> No, I haven't. I was being sarcastic because I just had happened to watch the Big Bang episode where Sheldon moved to Bozeman. He called the residents Bozites. The Bozeman Bozites would be formidable in this league if they ever had a chance to form!




I loved that episode. "Hey fellow, Bozites!" Sheldon bailed as fast as any prospective wanna-be pro franchise. Montana is great for many things, but hockey isn't one of them.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Scoutin1 said:


> I loved that episode. "Hey fellow, Bozites!" Sheldon bailed as fast as any prospective wanna-be pro franchise. Montana is great for many things, but hockey isn't one of them.




He got robbed. They could field a tough guy roster!


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