# ECHL 15/16 membership - fomer AHL pickups, Vegas out



## LadyStanley

http://pvtrib.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=62424

ECHL Commish wants to cap ECHL franchises at 30.

With CHL merge, currently at 28 teams. So perhaps Reno and Vegas (dormant franchises) might be the two additional?


Or perhaps if AHL relocates, there might be more moving pieces? Perhaps a team back in Prescott Valley, AZ?


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## No Fun Shogun

I'm still holding out hope that the Peoria Rivermen get to jump up from the SPHL to at least the ECHL.


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## JungleJON

I read the article and there is a lot in there that is hard to believe. 
First of all, is there a viable arena in Reno, NV?
Where are the Wranglers going to play in Vegas? Back to the Orleans?
Don't see either happening.

I think we will have to wait and see how the NHL teams start to shift their AHL teams from the East to the West Coast. There might be five, maybe six this year but don't think anymore than that.
Then there will probably be another shift with the AHL cities that lost their teams, picking up a new NHL affiliate.

Then from there we will see movement in the ECHL and I could see Prescott Valley becoming one of them.

I do not see Allen or Wichita moving to the AHL, I believe that a group in OKC might try to join the ECHL.

As someone stated on another post, let's wait to see after the end of this month. We should know more then.


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## JDogindy

ECHL has a dormant franchise in Reno?

The Reno idea was something the ECHL always wanted, and was why Reno was listed in their future markets for 4+ years. They probably have an arena there, but this is an idea that is likely never gonna happen.

But, I seriously doubt the AHL would want to put teams in Allen or Wichita. The emphasis is purely on giving the NHL markets a close proximity to their clubs, either by bus or by being close to a major airport hub.

Also, in order for ECHL to go to 30 teams, they have to address the fact that they are most likely gonna lose California, so you have to replace 3 teams, most likely having to settle either in the Northeast or looking at what the CHL was trying to do for emergency expansion.

Finally, Prescott Valley was the third-worst supporters for their CHL team last season, with only Denver (gone) and Brampton (surviving) being worse. A 3,000 average keeps you afloat in the ECHL, but they barely managed 2,500.


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## blizz71

I doubt Reno joins the ECHL anytime soon. The Reno Events Center in downtown has a capacity around 7k but I don't know if they have the ability to make ice. Also, Reno already has a minor league basketball team and currently I don't think Reno can support 2 minor league teams and the athletic teams at the University.

I would rather see the league return to Vegas and find a way to add cities like Fort Worth, Shreveport, OKC, Peoria, Louisville, Dayton, Richmond, Hampton and Jacksonville.

If the ECHL can add OKC and Peoria for 2015-2016 out of that list, those would be great additions. 

I've also wondered which cities currently hosting junior league teams could survive in the ECHL instead. Omaha? Sioux Falls? Des Moines? Wichita Falls?


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## HansH

LadyStanley said:


> http://pvtrib.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=62424
> 
> ECHL Commish wants to cap ECHL franchises at 30.
> 
> With CHL merge, currently at 28 teams. So perhaps Reno and Vegas (dormant franchises) might be the two additional?




As I pointed out elsewhere, there's a massive difference between "capping" franchises at 30, and "actively planning two 'expansion' franchises for next season". Plus, there have been prior "caps" of the ECHL membership, that have all been blown through as soon as it was convenient -- the 24-team "cap" announced sometime in the last two seasons comes to mind.

The very headline of this piece shows it's nothing more than speculative fiction, trying to take bits and pieces and convince someone that Prescott Valley with minor-pro hockey was anything other than a mistake driven by the WPHL's partnership with an arena-building company -- the town got fleeced, as with pretty much every other ICC/WPHL arena situation through the late 90s and early 2000s. There is no rational world in which there is any pro hockey franchise in Prescott Valley in 2015-16, period.

The other thing is that trying to predict where two "expansion" franchises is going to come from is pointless until and unless the league also knows what's going to happen with the rumored current ECHL western markets being replaced with AHL teams. Personally, I'm going to be _startled_ if there are 30 teams playing in the ECHL in 2015-16. I'm going to be mildly surprised if there are as many as 28, frankly, with the upheaval that seems to be coming.


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## HansH

JDogindy said:


> But, I seriously doubt the AHL would want to put teams in *Allen* or Wichita. The emphasis is purely on giving the NHL markets a close proximity to their clubs, either by bus or *by being close to a major airport hub.*




https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Dal...c6f9f4b4492f6dbb!2m2!1d-96.654745!2d33.127453

Distance from Allen Event Center to D/FW International Airport: 
33.0 miles, 33 minutes.

In addition:
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Ame...c6f9f4b4492f6dbb!2m2!1d-96.654745!2d33.127453

Distance from Allen Event Center to American Airlines Center: 
27.1 miles, 30 minutes.

Care to re-state your case?


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## Clinton Comets EHL

blizz71 said:


> I doubt Reno joins the ECHL anytime soon. The Reno Events Center in downtown has a capacity around 7k but I don't know if they have the ability to make ice. Also, Reno already has a minor league basketball team and currently I don't think Reno can support 2 minor league teams and the athletic teams at the University.
> 
> I would rather see the league return to Vegas and find a way to add cities like Fort Worth, Shreveport, OKC, Peoria, Louisville, Dayton, Richmond, Hampton and Jacksonville.
> 
> If the ECHL can add OKC and Peoria for 2015-2016 out of that list, those would be great additions.
> 
> I've also wondered which cities currently hosting junior league teams could survive in the ECHL instead. Omaha? Sioux Falls? Des Moines? Wichita Falls?




Des Moines already has an AHL franchise.


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## PCSPounder

A commissioner is prompted to sell the idea of more western ECHL clubs when current cities that aren't ticketed for the AHL wonder if they'll get "support." 

That support is sometimes nearby franchises. Hence why McKenna talks about Reno and Vegas... especially Vegas. You can fly there from anywhere. I'd conceivably argue that it might even be worth the other owners pitching in to buy the Orleans in order to make that happen, which naturally is easy for me to say and far harder for them to execute. Reno is really sloppy seconds in that regard... and given that Southwest has pulled several flights out of Reno and Boise to serve larger markets over the last couple years, that's not getting any easier.

I know the ECHL (never mind the AHL) should NOT be thinking about the Tacoma Dome. I do think they should be ready to pounce if they can loosen Kent or Everett from the WHL (which, mind you, is a long game dependent on the aftermath of the state Department of Labor's wrath)... Alaska Airlines is based out of Seattle. You want that hub. If that's being mentioned for the AHL, is that Vancouver's destination? Or is someone supremely optimistic about Seattle getting arena issues solved for NHL expansion? Interesting timing for that name-drop.


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## JDogindy

HansH said:


> https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Dal...c6f9f4b4492f6dbb!2m2!1d-96.654745!2d33.127453
> 
> Distance from Allen Event Center to D/FW International Airport:
> 33.0 miles, 33 minutes.
> 
> In addition:
> https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Ame...c6f9f4b4492f6dbb!2m2!1d-96.654745!2d33.127453
> 
> Distance from Allen Event Center to American Airlines Center:
> 27.1 miles, 30 minutes.
> 
> Care to re-state your case?




Okay, I keep forgetting that Allen is a suburb of the North Texas Metroplex, and geography _*was*_ one of my best subjects in school. But, Dallas already has the Texas Stars, and San Antonio is likely going to remain independent in ownership. The only viable major market is in Houston, but the main venue there (Toyota Center) has an owner who is adamant about being NHL or bust.

However, the remnants of the WPHL do also provide some other outlets, like El Paso, Corpus Christi (close to Houston), and Amarillo.


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## JDogindy

6768clintoncomets575 said:


> Des Moines already has an AHL franchise.




The Iowa Wild.

Honestly, Minnesota takes a hit to their wallet, as I believe people there care more for the Des Moines Buccaneers, who play in a barn as opposed to that pretty arena downtown, than the Wild, but they have them there due to convinence. And what I had just said about Houston.


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## blizz71

I forgot about the Iowa Wild.


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## offkilter

blizz71 said:


> I forgot about the Iowa Wild.




Don't feel too bad. 90% of the legit beat writers(cough morons cough) who are being paid good money to cover all this AHL/ECHL relocation talk have no clue where most teams are, what leagues they play in, or even if they still exist.


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## StatesideSensFan

The Texas Stars are in a suburb of Austin and are a good 2 hours away from DFW on 35.


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## wildcat48

I've seen better writing on the wall of bathroom stall in the men's room....


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## Dan Hickling

wildcat48 said:


> I've seen better writing on the wall of bathroom stall in the men's room....




I've been in that stall... captivating reading


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## aparch

JDogindy said:


> ECHL has a dormant franchise in Reno?
> 
> The Reno idea was something the ECHL always wanted, and was why Reno was listed in their future markets for 4+ years. They probably have an arena there, but this is an idea that is likely never gonna happen.




Last I had heard, some rich person in Reno kept writing the ECHL a check every year to keep their "future market" alive while waiting for someone to eventually build an arena in the area (or at least a renovation for an ice plant at the Reno Events Center). 

The Columbia Inferno were also listed for a few years as a "future market" after they went dormant because the fees were paid.


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## hkymnky

30 teams is a logical and admirable goal, but as others have pointed out, hardly realistic.

It would be one thing if the ECHL had 28 stable franchises, but all signs are pointing to a massive upheaval this summer with several strong western markets being lost to the AHL. 

Where will Ontario, Bakersfield, and (possibly) Stockton go? 

There's been some speculation that Bakersfield could end up in OKC and play in a "mini-CHL" division...but its far from certain.

With the AHL moving into California there are few (if any) viable markets left in the state, and very few left in the west. Assuming OKC gets an ECHL team, that still leaves the ECHL four teams short of 30. I could see Peoria making a return to the ECHL, but that still leaves the league short two, and with a number of questionably stable franchises.

It would be nice to see another team out west to create a solid six team division (assuming LV isn't returning to the fold). I know there were rumors about Casper Wyoming joining the CHL last summer, and there's some rumblings of labor issues with the WHL in Washington state. I wouldn't want to hang my hat on either one...but there's not much else that I can see.

Another team in the southeast could also be helpful in creating a six team division, and it seems like there may be some better options available for markets. Could any of the SPHL ownership be convinced to buy into to the ECHL?


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## easternrefugee

Losing the teams in California put a bigger financial burden on the remaining ECHL teams in the west....

Alaska
Utah
Colorado
Idaho

Will these survive without the California teams????

I honestly do not know.


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## JungleJON

I think the teams in the SPHL are happy where they are at. Pensacola, Knoxville, Columbus, Huntsville and Louisiana were all at one time or another in the ECHL. Don't think any of them want to return.
If they lose Peoria, it will actually be better for them. Macon, GA will be joining again next season.

If we end up with 30-30-30 I think it will be good for hockey in general.

You might see a few AHL cities join after they lose their team and cannot find a replacement. Who they are is anybody's guess.


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## hkymnky

I admit the SPHL speculation was wishful thinking on my part. 

Looking at the ECHL team map there's a very clear corridor going from Oklahoma to western New York with the majority of the league's teams. 

The two exceptions are a southeastern cluster of Florida, Georgia, and South Carolina, and a handful of western teams spread over South Dakota, Colorado, Utah, and Idaho. If these two outlying groups are to remain viable over the long term they will likely need additional support (and franchises) from the league. That doesn't mean I think they'll get it.

Meanwhile additional teams in the northeast could also work, but I think it will depend a great deal on the relationship those teams have with the AHL and NHL teams in the region. Elmira's affiliation with Buffalo and Rochester is a good example of what I'm talking about. I could see an ECHL team in Worcester or maybe Manchester, but they would need to have a strong regional affiliate like Boston to stand any chance of success.


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## Avsrule2022

The addition of the CHL teams to the ECHL will give Colorado pretty much the same kind of travel they had when they were in the CHL. Actually, other than Alaska, it will probably be a little better for the Eagles. But it definitely doesnt help Alaska, Idaho or Utah if the 3 California ECHL teams disappear.


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## JDogindy

aparch said:


> Last I had heard, some rich person in Reno kept writing the ECHL a check every year to keep their "future market" alive while waiting for someone to eventually build an arena in the area (or at least a renovation for an ice plant at the Reno Events Center).
> 
> The Columbia Inferno were also listed for a few years as a "future market" after they went dormant because the fees were paid.




That's an awful lot of money to piss on the cheapest-looking section on the ECHL website.

But, as for new markets, going into SPHL territory isn't likely. Even with the league's problems, they like the way things are. You could try cracking at the former CHL markets that are now serviced by the NAHL, but that is unlikely. And, the northeast doesn't look too viable, even if you score one market abandoned.

OKC & Peoria look to be 2015 add-ons.


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## hkymnky

JDogindy said:


> OKC & Peoria look to be 2015 add-ons.




Agreed. 

Looking forward (and wearing my rose colored glasses) it would be great to see minor league hockey finally break into a pacific northwest market like Spokane, Everett, or Kennewick. Its highly unlikely, but I feel like a team in one or more of those markets could go a long way to solidifying the ECHL's presence in the west.


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## Hoodaha

easternrefugee said:


> Losing the teams in California put a bigger financial burden on the remaining ECHL teams in the west....
> 
> Alaska
> Utah
> Colorado
> Idaho
> 
> Will these survive without the California teams????
> 
> I honestly do not know.




They already have to fly most places, so it shouldn't really be all that different. They'll play former CHL teams if the California teams go AHL.


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## My Cozen Dylan

easternrefugee said:


> Losing the teams in California put a bigger financial burden on the remaining ECHL teams in the west....
> 
> Alaska
> Utah
> Colorado
> Idaho
> 
> Will these survive without the California teams????
> 
> I honestly do not know.




I wouldn't be surprised if either:
a.) AHL West is bigger than we think and some/all of the above mentioned teams are involved too; or
b.) These teams join a year or two after the initial AHL West movement.


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## PCSPounder

jawallstar1 said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if either:
> a.) AHL West is bigger than we think and some/all of the above mentioned teams are involved too; or
> b.) These teams join a year or two after the initial AHL West movement.




I would... for about 8-12 years. After that, there's a point at which one of the California teams will fail and Salt Lake will have been clamoring to get in for some time. That ALWAYS happens with western leagues in any sport (PCL, check... pro WHL, check...).

For now, the AHL vision appears to be that of the Hollywood Bungalow Outpost.

Meanwhile, don't forget... Rapid City really belongs in the same division as the Colorado Eagles. From there, it's possible to make a play for Billings (bigger than Casper, and already has an arena) or maybe stretch to Prescott.


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## Sports Enthusiast

There's too many teams as is and its stupid when most of them don't play each other. I think some of the CHL teams don't have a long fate.


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## JDogindy

SFTC Addict said:


> There's too many teams as is and its stupid when most of them don't play each other. I think some of the CHL teams don't have a long fate.




Well, they also don't do that with the AHL. I mean, with the AHL Pacific Division, do you see them playing many games against Portland, Providence, or St. John's?

I don't know if this is a legitimate travel gripe if teams can't play against each other, or this is another "Oh, the ECHL sucks! I wish it would go away!" complaint.


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## Sports Enthusiast

JDogindy said:


> Well, they also don't do that with the AHL. I mean, with the AHL Pacific Division, do you see them playing many games against Portland, Providence, or St. John's?
> 
> I don't know if this is a legitimate travel gripe if teams can't play against each other, or this is another "Oh, the ECHL sucks! I wish it would go away!" complaint.




The West teams fly everywhere.


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## Off da post and in

SFTC Addict said:


> There's too many teams as is and its stupid when most of them don't play each other. I think some of the CHL teams don't have a long fate.




The same can be said of the NFL, MLB, SEC football, B1G football, ACC football, and PAC12 football to think of a few other leagues with the same schedule MO. Not too many fans think that's stupid. BTW, most things on this planet don't have a long fate. 



JDogindy said:


> Well, they also don't do that with the AHL. I mean, with the AHL Pacific Division, do you see them playing many games against Portland, Providence, or St. John's?
> 
> I don't know if this is a legitimate travel gripe if teams can't play against each other, or this is another "Oh, the ECHL sucks! I wish it would go away!" complaint.




It's the latter. For someone with such contempt for the ECHL he sure posts here often. 

I don't like liver. However, I don't go to the butcher shop everyday to complain about liver to the other customers.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Off da post and in said:


> The same can be said of the NFL, MLB, SEC football, B1G football, ACC football, and PAC12 football to think of a few other leagues with the same schedule MO. Not too many fans think that's stupid. BTW, most things on this planet don't have a long fate.
> 
> 
> 
> It's the latter. For someone with such contempt for the ECHL he sure posts here often.
> 
> I don't like liver. However, I don't go to the butcher shop everyday to complain about liver to the other customers.




Actually the MLB has changed that. College conferences no but it does rotate every couple years. But in basketball they do.


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## Clinton Comets EHL

JDogindy said:


> Well, they also don't do that with the AHL. I mean, with the AHL Pacific Division, do you see them playing many games against Portland, Providence, or St. John's?
> 
> I don't know if this is a legitimate travel gripe if teams can't play against each other, or this is another "Oh, the ECHL sucks! I wish it would go away!" complaint.





No way. The western teams will play mostly against each other, probably Texas, Iowa Chicago? The AHL schedules pods today. Someone mentioned either on this thread or AHL thread at one point Rochester hasn't or hadn't played Milwaukee for 7 years, even though they are in the same conference.


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## go comets

I'm thinking the AHL goes the way the ECHL schedules and the west and east do not meet till the playoffs. It will be interesting. I think some of these AHL city's getting ECHL teams may meet with some resentment at first... But I think fans will give it a try if they have no other options......its just a normal reaction....kinda like if you have driven acuras or a toyota and all of a sudden someone tells you you gotta drive jeep or a Mazda.....


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## JDogindy

6768clintoncomets575 said:


> No way. The western teams will play mostly against each other, probably Texas, Iowa Chicago? The AHL schedules pods today. Someone mentioned either on this thread or AHL thread at one point Rochester hasn't or hadn't played Milwaukee for 7 years, even though they are in the same conference.




That was my thought process on the matter. I mean, I'm well aware of teams encapsulating themselves in the minors to save on travel costs, but the Pacific Division would play about 60 to even 75% of their schedule against each other, and the rest would be visiting Texas and the midwest on road swings once a season.



go comets said:


> I'm thinking the AHL goes the way the ECHL schedules and the west and east do not meet till the playoffs. It will be interesting. I think some of these AHL city's getting ECHL teams may meet with some resentment at first... But I think fans will give it a try if they have no other options......its just a normal reaction....kinda like if you have driven acuras or a toyota and all of a sudden someone tells you you gotta drive jeep or a Mazda.....




That's how I view it. The main issue is that the ECHL style is different from the AHL style, and diehard soccer fans would notice it and, if the opinions of a few users have been on the matter, violently reject it.

I mean, I'd rather have some hockey than no hockey, and the ECHL model is something geared more towards casual fans than the diehards.


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## Paul Bunyan

SFTC Addict said:


> There's too many teams as is and its stupid when most of them don't play each other. I think some of the CHL teams don't have a long fate.




Brampton is apparently in bad shape so the rumors say.....

As the not playing each other thing, teams at the beginnings of seasons can put in travel requests to do trips, it would be nice if each franchise did at least one or two home and homes a season so you could see some new blood. It's kinda insane playing K-Zoo 15-18 times a year.....

Teams in the East hardly travel for the most part anyway which is pretty sad, and scheduling is made around that (see Fort Wayne playing Evansville and Indy every other game ).


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## No Fun Shogun

Yeah, it's fairly safe to say that a handful of teams, both newbies from the CHL and not, won't be around five years from now. Just the nature of the business in minor league sports.

Plus, I'm sure that the ECHL will try to pick up recently (or soon to be) abandoned AHL markets to set up shop at some point as well, such as Peoria.


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## Andre Poodle Lussier

No Fun Shogun said:


> Yeah, it's fairly safe to say that a handful of teams, both newbies from the CHL and not, won't be around five years from now. Just the nature of the business in minor league sports.
> 
> Plus, I'm sure that the ECHL will try to pick up recently (or soon to be) abandoned AHL markets to set up shop at some point as well, such as Peoria.




I'm sure there will be some half-hearted attempts by NE and Mid Atlantic AHL markets that are abandoned to try ECHL for a while. It's going to be a tough sell to fans who have been given AAA hockey for years (and decades in some cases) to get sold a lower rung of hockey and hope that numbers will support it. Will they? Maybe...but it's going to be tough to tell Worcester, Utica, and a few other markets that instead of seeing the "stars of tomorrow" you're going to get the fourth line players of the day after tomorrow.

The ECHL's "eastern" flank is not doing well - Reading's attendance is down close to its lowest levels on record. Trenton's gone. Elmira's not drawing well. Even with any realignment of leagues and teams, this isn't going to be a one or two year ordeal as some of the ECHL's weaker links (not including the CHL add-on's) are going to likely go belly up...

If there's a school of thought that this upheaval is going to be quick and once it's done, it's done - there's some prime oceanfront property in the Midwest that I can sell you.


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## Paul Bunyan

No Fun Shogun said:


> Yeah, it's fairly safe to say that a handful of teams, both newbies from the CHL and not, won't be around five years from now. Just the nature of the business in minor league sports.
> 
> Plus, I'm sure that the ECHL will try to pick up recently (or soon to be) abandoned AHL markets to set up shop at some point as well, such as Peoria.




Peoria (my cousin works out there) would be great to bring back...as they have a ton of old rivalries that would re-spark if they came back into the league proper. I'm hoping at some point they do. Better them than likely some random start up in a market they want to get but has no history or fanbase.


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## toledo storm

Peoria used to have a hell of a rivalry with Toledo but that would never happen nowadays even if Peoria came back.. Toledo has since went with the new ECHL brand of Hockey... Do not hit anybody and don't you dare fight someone... After 32 games today the Toledo Walleye have only 335 penalty minutes on the season.. There are no such thing as rivalries in Toledo these days.. I thought we would see some when Kalamazoo and Fort Wayne joined the ECHL but nope... Just boring and very soft games..

While the Walleye are a good team I have not seen a rivalry game in Toledo since they demolished the Sports Arena and the Storm were dead... I would love to see Peoria join and play Toledo again but the games would be like watching paint dry just like all the other Toledo games.. Sad but true


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## Avsrule2022

Here are some interesting stats to compare the "softness" of the East vs the West.
Average PIM per team:
North: 473
East: 519
Central: 637
Pacific: 646

Eastern Conf. Team avg: 496
Western Conf. Team avg: 642

The Western Conference teams average almost 150 PIMs more than the East. The Pacific avg. 173 more than the North. It's funny, but the average PIM's per game for these 2 is 5 minutes more for the Pacific, the same amount you get for fighting 
I hear a lot about how soft and boring the ECHL is. Its not like that in the West, thank goodness.


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## toledo storm

You are correct.. The west still carries a good amount of physicality but the North is ever so boring to watch.. I have actually seen a Toledo player hit somebody and tell them "sorry" with a pat on the a$$ ... I wish I could tell you I made that up but I can't.. It happened.. 

I try not to complain much because we could have no Hockey at all but its getting old watching some of these games.. Just finish checks fellas, just finish checks.. That would be a start.. I'm serious when I tell you some of these games are real snoozers and I just barely call Hockey.. I like to refer to it as an "Ice Show"


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## JungleJON

Didn't know which thread to post this - figured this might be the best one.

Has anyone else noticed that the Las Vegas Wranglers logo is still on the ECHL main page? Has it been there all year and they forgot to remove it or was it just put there because they are going to announce that the team is returning?

Might not be nothing, but thought I would ask.


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## offkilter

SenorChifles said:


> Didn't know which thread to post this - figured this might be the best one.
> 
> Has anyone else noticed that the Las Vegas Wranglers logo is still on the ECHL main page? Has it been there all year and they forgot to remove it or was it just put there because they are going to announce that the team is returning?
> 
> Might not be nothing, but thought I would ask.




Its been there all year. They did the same thing for the Columbia Inferno for a while too.


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## LadyStanley

http://www.bakersfieldcalifornian.c...831/A-new-nickname-could-be-in-Condors-future

Bakersfield getting new team/nickname?


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## hkymnky

LadyStanley said:


> http://www.bakersfieldcalifornian.c...831/A-new-nickname-could-be-in-Condors-future
> 
> Bakersfield getting new team/nickname?




Even though there's a long oil drilling tradition in Bakersfield, the brass in Edmonton would be fools to talk away from 17 years of brand equity in the Condors name. That being said, I would totally approve a new logo and color scheme to mark the team's elevated status as Edmonton's AHL affiliate.


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## hkymnky

Anybody have contacts with the Bakersfield front office?






...because I think I may have found their new logo.


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## My Cozen Dylan

^I actually really like that...but not as much as their current one.


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## Hoodaha

hkymnky said:


> Anybody have contacts with the Bakersfield front office?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...because I think I may have found their new logo.




Haha, other than the Condors letters being too dark, I actually kinda like it.


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## Hoodaha

jawallstar1 said:


> ^I actually really like that...but not as much as their current one.




Agree. If it were me, I'd slap the current logo on one of the Oilers jerseys and put Oilers patches on the shoulders.


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## Cyclones Rock

toledo storm said:


> Peoria used to have a hell of a rivalry with Toledo but that would never happen nowadays even if Peoria came back.. Toledo has since went with the new ECHL brand of Hockey... Do not hit anybody and don't you dare fight someone... After 32 games today the Toledo Walleye have only 335 penalty minutes on the season.. There are no such thing as rivalries in Toledo these days.. I thought we would see some when Kalamazoo and Fort Wayne joined the ECHL but nope... Just boring and very soft games..
> 
> While the Walleye are a good team I have not seen a rivalry game in Toledo since they demolished the Sports Arena and the Storm were dead... I would love to see Peoria join and play Toledo again but the games would be like watching paint dry just like all the other Toledo games.. Sad but true




LET'S GO STORM!!!

The TSA was one of the greatest arenas I've ever been to. The closeness of the fans to the rink, the rowdiness and rudeness of many of the Storm fans and the style of play that Toledo team's usually brought made the place something special. It still pisses me off to drive by the site of the old place and see nothing there. They tore down a mecca for nothing. The Huntington Center is a very nice facility, but it's anti septic when compared to the late TSA.

I always loved watching the reaction of a player who had never played there during the anthem when the "hit somebody" chant came!

That's enough compliments to a Toledo fan for now! {Mod}


----------



## toledo storm

Oh yes, the road to nowhere... That's the new name for the "road" they put where the old Sports Arena once sat.. Still miss that place badly... When they tore that place down I always knew Hockey in Toledo would never be the same.. And it's not...

The Cincinnati Cyclones of the 90's at TSA against the Storm were some epic games.. The best of the 90's for Toledo as far as I'm concerned.. Dennis Desrosiers hated Chris McSorley and Chris hated him from their days in the "old" IHL together.. That made it even better.. Chris Marshall, Kevin Kerr, Howie Rosenblatt, Rob Krauss, Steve Shaunessy and NHLer Kevin Dean... Iain Duncan, Alex Hicks, Mark Deazley, Barry Potomski, Pat Pylypuik, Ron Aubry and Derek Booth... Wow I could go on forever about those teams and games.. Classic good times at the old Sports Arena...

Cyclones Rock, I know a guy who I am trying to track down that has some of those old Toledo/Cincinnati games on tape.. I have not talk to him in years but I will find him.. When I do get my hands on some of those old games I could let you know.. Seeming's how Hockey as we knew it all our lives is gone forever we could look back on when Hockey was at it's best with tapes like those.. That was when you had REAL emotion and intensity in the games.. Not so much anymore.. The game seriously lacks emotion now days..

Anyhow it was nice to hear some kind words from a Cincinnati Cyclone fan about Toledo back in them days because I know we fans didn't "Welcome" you folks to our "Barn" with open arms.. I tell fans at the Walleye games we used to throw beer on opposing teams fans and start *****, now we buy them beers and invite them over for dinner.. Oh my how things have changed...


----------



## Cyclones Rock

toledo storm said:


> Oh yes, the road to nowhere... That's the new name for the "road" they put where the old Sports Arena once sat.. Still miss that place badly... When they tore that place down I always knew Hockey in Toledo would never be the same.. And it's not...
> 
> The Cincinnati Cyclones of the 90's at TSA against the Storm were some epic games.. The best of the 90's for Toledo as far as I'm concerned.. Dennis Desrosiers hated Chris McSorley and Chris hated him from their days in the "old" IHL together.. That made it even better.. Chris Marshall, Kevin Kerr, Howie Rosenblatt, Rob Krauss, Steve Shaunessy and NHLer Kevin Dean... Iain Duncan, Alex Hicks, Mark Deazley, Barry Potomski, Pat Pylypuik, Ron Aubry and Derek Booth... Wow I could go on forever about those teams and games.. Classic good times at the old Sports Arena...
> 
> Cyclones Rock, I know a guy who I am trying to track down that has some of those old Toledo/Cincinnati games on tape.. I have not talk to him in years but I will find him.. When I do get my hands on some of those old games I could let you know.. Seeming's how Hockey as we knew it all our lives is gone forever we could look back on when Hockey was at it's best with tapes like those.. That was when you had REAL emotion and intensity in the games.. Not so much anymore.. The game seriously lacks emotion now days..
> 
> Anyhow it was nice to hear some kind words from a Cincinnati Cyclone fan about Toledo back in them days because I know we fans didn't "Welcome" you folks to our "Barn" with open arms..* I tell fans at the Walleye games we used to throw beer on opposing teams fans and start *****, now we buy them beers *and invite them over for dinner.. Oh my how things have changed...




Great post!!

I didn't follow the Cyclones in their IHL days, but I'd love to see the tapes anyway.

I did get the beer bath once at TSA! The last game ever played there was a playoff game between the Cyclones and Storm and I got a boatload of *[MOD]***** from the fans around me! Almost came to blows. LOL. I also was taken to Tony Packo's after a game by some Storm fans that I had gotten to know. I kept in contact with some of them for a while. In fact, I never pay for a Walleye ticket. I met one of the off ice officials (a Storm fan) at a game in Dayton and struck up a friendship.

I know that a few Storm fans-fan club, in particular-weren't really pleased with the reception they got from the Napoli management and pretty much didn't follow the team to Huntington.

"The Road to Nowhere". That pretty much sums up what they did. It's pretty weak that there's not a single reference to the Toledo Sports Arena on its former site. It's almost as if the powers that be didn't want anyone to remember any of the rich hockey history that Toledo had at TSA. 

The Walleye draw very well, but who knows how long that will last. The Mud Hens crew is so gd corporate that it's ridiculous (the Cyclones management is the same way). Barry Soskin is a bit of a shady character, but he had charisma. He mixed with the fans. I can't see Napoli risking getting his Armani suit soiled by getting close to the fans.

It's a different era in hockey everywhere. But in Toledo, it really has changed more than anywhere that I'm familiar with. I know that clocks can't be turned back, but it would sure be fun to for the TSA.

Here's a video of highlights from the last game ever played there and the national anthem (fast foward the anthem to the 1:15 mark or so....the singer is dreadful).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_o65hPdKdY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWhr4c0YunM


----------



## toledo storm

You are exactly right about no TSA reference on the site.. The Walleye management looked at the TSA as a black eye for Hockey and Toledo and wanted the memories wiped out.. I heard Napoli say in a press conference after the demolition of the TSA that the new Arena "Will not be another Sports Arena" and he has also mentioned the "behavior" of the TSA crowd.. So you nailed it, he doesn't want the "new" fans to know anything about the old "barn"... As far as I'm concerned it was my 2nd home for most of my life.. I attended old Toledo Goaldigger games there in the late 70's and 80's till they folded in 1986 and was a season ticket holder for all 16 years of the Storm... I have attended games there since I was 5 and have taken both my girls since they were young and never once felt threatened.. Napoli is just a puss and knows nothing about Hockey, just business.. So sad 

I do have a ton of old footage from the TSA and a fight tape from the 90's.. I will dig it out and get some copies made someday and I will let you know.. The games I referred to in my last post were from the ECHL not the IHL.. 90-91 and 91-92 were the years before Cincinnati joined the IHL.. Dennis Desrosiers and Chris McSorley were the coaches and they hated each others guts from when they played against each other in the 70's and 80's.. McSorley was a member of Toledo and Dennis played for Saginaw then Flint... They hated each other something serious..

After a game at TSA one night in the 90's McSorley tried to get at Desrosiers in the concourse area and the cops had to break them up... Epic times.. We the fans benefited from all the hatred they had for each other and it made the games nasty.. Fun fun fun for the fans though.. Some games would have 8-9 fights...


----------



## Abbeycam

*Richmond-Norfolk*



Andre Poodle Lussier said:


> I'm sure there will be some half-hearted attempts by NE and Mid Atlantic AHL markets that are abandoned to try ECHL for a while. It's going to be a tough sell to fans who have been given AAA hockey for years (and decades in some cases) to get sold a lower rung of hockey and hope that numbers will support it. Will they? Maybe...but it's going to be tough to tell Worcester, Utica, and a few other markets that instead of seeing the "stars of tomorrow" you're going to get the fourth line players of the day after tomorrow.
> 
> The ECHL's "eastern" flank is not doing well - Reading's attendance is down close to its lowest levels on record. Trenton's gone. Elmira's not drawing well. Even with any realignment of leagues and teams, this isn't going to be a one or two year ordeal as some of the ECHL's weaker links (not including the CHL add-on's) are going to likely go belly up...
> 
> If there's a school of thought that this upheaval is going to be quick and once it's done, it's done - there's some prime oceanfront property in the Midwest that I can sell you.



Hoping Richmond can garner interest now that Norfolk/Hampton Roads will be back in the ECHL. I think the "E" is our best shot but only with a rival in Norfolk/Hampton Roads. I hear people saying the ECHL brand of hockey is boring nowadays..........it's gotta be better than no hockey!


----------



## hkymnky

Abbeycam said:


> Hoping Richmond can garner interest now that Norfolk/Hampton Roads will be back in the ECHL. I think the "E" is our best shot but only with a rival in Norfolk/Hampton Roads. I hear people saying the ECHL brand of hockey is boring nowadays..........it's gotta be better than no hockey!




Agreed!


----------



## Sidly

Abbeycam said:


> Hoping Richmond can garner interest now that Norfolk/Hampton Roads will be back in the ECHL. I think the "E" is our best shot but only with a rival in Norfolk/Hampton Roads. I hear people saying the ECHL brand of hockey is boring nowadays..........it's gotta be better than no hockey!




Finally someone gets it! I am the same way. I'm not the biggest fan of the FHL but man if they revived the Indiana Ice Miners team here in Indiana Pa I'd support the heck out of it!


----------



## Cyclones Rock

toledo storm said:


> You are exactly right about no TSA reference on the site.. The Walleye management looked at the TSA as a black eye for Hockey and Toledo and wanted the memories wiped out.. I heard Napoli say in a press conference after the demolition of the TSA that the new Arena "Will not be another Sports Arena" and he has also mentioned the "behavior" of the TSA crowd.. So you nailed it, he doesn't want the "new" fans to know anything about the old "barn"... As far as I'm concerned it was my 2nd home for most of my life.. I attended old Toledo Goaldigger games there in the late 70's and 80's till they folded in 1986 and was a season ticket holder for all 16 years of the Storm... I have attended games there since I was 5 and have taken both my girls since they were young and never once felt threatened.. Napoli is just a puss and knows nothing about Hockey, just business.. So sad
> 
> I do have a ton of old footage from the TSA and a fight tape from the 90's.. I will dig it out and get some copies made someday and I will let you know.. The games I referred to in my last post were from the ECHL not the IHL.. 90-91 and 91-92 were the years before Cincinnati joined the IHL.. Dennis Desrosiers and Chris McSorley were the coaches and they hated each others guts from when they played against each other in the 70's and 80's.. McSorley was a member of Toledo and Dennis played for Saginaw then Flint... They hated each other something serious..
> 
> After a game at TSA one night in the 90's McSorley tried to get at Desrosiers in the concourse area and the cops had to break them up... Epic times.. We the fans benefited from all the hatred they had for each other and it made the games nasty.. Fun fun fun for the fans though.. Some games would have 8-9 fights...




Just sat through a Cyclones/Kzoo game that was virtually checking free. The ref (must have been an NHL-contracted one) called roughing penalties all night long on stuff which wouldn't be called roughing in juniors games.

I did follow the Clones when they came in to the ECHL. It was pretty low quality hockey, but fun to watch. If I recall correctly, teams only dressed 14 players plus 2 goalies, so by the time the dust cleared after the usual 5 or 6 fights, there were often times only 12 or so position players left on each team. Made for some ragged play in the third period, but what the heck

I remember the set up of TSA very well. The locker rooms were only separated by a little bit of corridor, so "mixing it up" like you were describing between Chris McSorley and Derosiers could easily happen.

I'll PM you with contact info. I'd love to see some old tapes of the TSA. Just this messaging of the last few days has let me relive some of those great times! Thanks.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

Is Reno even a thought i thought they didn't have a place to play . And isn't vegas looking at Nhl possibility . with the Ahl taking over most if not all the cali teams. we'll have to see which abandoned Ahl markets move to the E.But the way some of the Ahl fans in those markets are acting like they won't except a team in the E. But The way I see it hockey is hockey no matter What letter the league starts with. lets see how fast those abandoned markets contract hockey withdraw. LOL I see this move being good either way .


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

So it looks like the Flames bought stockton. And are gonna move them to Glen Falls . The A team will move to stockton. http://wnyt.com/article/stories/S3685981.shtml?cat=300


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

A team in Glens Falls would help a team like Elmira last short term. They used to have a rivalry in the U. 

If they look at Richmond they should consider Roanoke.


----------



## Jackets Woodchuck

toledo storm said:


> You are exactly right about no TSA reference on the site.. The Walleye management looked at the TSA as a black eye for Hockey and Toledo and wanted the memories wiped out.. I heard Napoli say in a press conference after the demolition of the TSA that the new Arena "Will not be another Sports Arena" and he has also mentioned the "behavior" of the TSA crowd.. So you nailed it, he doesn't want the "new" fans to know anything about the old "barn"... As far as I'm concerned it was my 2nd home for most of my life.. I attended old Toledo Goaldigger games there in the late 70's and 80's till they folded in 1986 and was a season ticket holder for all 16 years of the Storm... I have attended games there since I was 5 and have taken both my girls since they were young and never once felt threatened.. Napoli is just a puss and knows nothing about Hockey, just business.. So sad
> 
> I do have a ton of old footage from the TSA and a fight tape from the 90's.. I will dig it out and get some copies made someday and I will let you know.. The games I referred to in my last post were from the ECHL not the IHL.. 90-91 and 91-92 were the years before Cincinnati joined the IHL.. Dennis Desrosiers and Chris McSorley were the coaches and they hated each others guts from when they played against each other in the 70's and 80's.. McSorley was a member of Toledo and Dennis played for Saginaw then Flint... They hated each other something serious..
> 
> After a game at TSA one night in the 90's McSorley tried to get at Desrosiers in the concourse area and the cops had to break them up... Epic times.. We the fans benefited from all the hatred they had for each other and it made the games nasty.. Fun fun fun for the fans though.. Some games would have 8-9 fights...




I assume the Walleye management's view of Toledo's hockey history changes considerably when there is money to be made off of "turn back the clock" night merchandise.


----------



## Off da post and in

toledo storm said:


> Peoria used to have a hell of a rivalry with Toledo but that would never happen nowadays even if Peoria came back.. *Toledo has since went with the new ECHL brand of Hockey... Do not hit anybody and don't you dare fight someone... After 32 games today the Toledo Walleye have only 335 penalty minutes on the season*.. There are no such thing as rivalries in Toledo these days.. I thought we would see some when Kalamazoo and Fort Wayne joined the ECHL but nope... Just boring and very soft games..
> 
> While the Walleye are a good team I have not seen a rivalry game in Toledo since they demolished the Sports Arena and the Storm were dead... I would love to see Peoria join and play Toledo again but the games would be like watching paint dry just like all the other Toledo games.. Sad but true




The game has changed. 
(1) Players who are in the ECHL and have AHL contracts aren't going to play physical because they are 1st and 2nd line danglers.
(2) Fewer ECHL teams have 3rd lines that are grinders. The league now just runs out shooters and danglers. No "D", just score baby.
(3) Nearly 90%+ of the coaches in the ECHL don't have a clue on how to use the 10th forward in any of a myriad of strategies.
(4) Fewer players are eager to risk injury fighting for a mere $500-$650 per week for the enjoyment of the fans, or a team that will cut them in a heartbeat.

For better or worse, the hockey you're yearning for is a thing of the past.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Easily for worse.


----------



## Hoodaha

Off da post and in said:


> The game has changed.
> (1) Players who are in the ECHL and have AHL contracts aren't going to play physical because they are 1st and 2nd line danglers.
> (2) Fewer ECHL teams have 3rd lines that are grinders. The league now just runs out shooters and danglers. No "D", just score baby.
> (3) Nearly 90%+ of the coaches in the ECHL don't have a clue on how to use the 10th forward in any of a myriad of strategies.
> (4) Fewer players are eager to risk injury fighting for a mere $500-$650 per week for the enjoyment of the fans, or a team that will cut them in a heartbeat.
> 
> For better or worse, the hockey you're yearning for is a thing of the past.




That's your team, not the ECHL. Out West, it's nothing like what you're describing.


----------



## PCSPounder

Hoodaha said:


> That's your team, not the ECHL. Out West, it's nothing like what you're describing.




When I finally moved back to Portland from Boise, I almost immediately noted an uptick in fighting... and cheap stuff. Of course, the sample size includes a lot of Portland v S**ttle games. Nobody seems to get too chippy in Boise, though there was the occasional Alaska game.

Funny thing is that I can go to a WHL-centered message board and listening to incessant griping about how the WHL used to be rougher.


----------



## toledo storm

I agree Hood, the West still carries a good amount of physicality .. Don't care about the fights as much as finish your darn checks for cripe sakes...


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

You can thank affiliated hockey for that. Guys no longer play for the name on the front....but the back.


----------



## PCSPounder

SFTC Addict said:


> You can thank affiliated hockey for that. Guys no longer play for the name on the front....but the back.




Thank the fans who abandoned unaffiliated hockey. There's a lot less of that than there was 15 years ago.


----------



## Cacciaguida

I sure hope Brampton can hold on. They'd be great fit for Toronto.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

PCSPounder said:


> Thank the fans who abandoned unaffiliated hockey. There's a lot less of that than there was 15 years ago.




The IHL didn't really want to affiliate...they kind of wanted to rival. Like the KHL now. 15 years ago you had a lot of non affiliated hockey. UHL, ECHL, WCHL, CHL


----------



## PCSPounder

SFTC Addict said:


> The IHL didn't really want to affiliate...they kind of wanted to rival. Like the KHL now. 15 years ago you had a lot of non affiliated hockey. UHL, ECHL, WCHL, CHL




Did you read what I wrote?

However, here's a trick. Can you put a league in larger markets that would support hockey and have economies just diverse enough so as not to blow up a league just for one small downturn, yet hold down the ambition? Can you sell "blood and guts" that way without giving markets false expectations that they should be NHL markets? "Pocketbook friendly, NOT family friendly!" I highly doubt it.


----------



## Disengage

SFTC Addict said:


> You can thank affiliated hockey for that. Guys no longer play for the name on the front....but the back.




Thanks Herb.


----------



## PCSPounder

It's not like me to throw out fodder from other message boards, especially a source with, well, meh, but only to throw this out there...

...rumors of Kootenay Ice ownership considering "Idaho."

Boise's been denied before by the WHL. I believe the US teams don't like the prospect of questionable winter weather along I-84. So I'm not holding my breath. But it wouldn't surprise me if the Steelheads were reaching out and, if nothing else, testing the waters.


----------



## Steelhead16

PCSPounder said:


> It's not like me to throw out fodder from other message boards, especially a source with, well, meh, but only to throw this out there...
> 
> ...rumors of Kootenay Ice ownership considering "Idaho."
> 
> Boise's been denied before by the WHL. I believe the US teams don't like the prospect of questionable winter weather along I-84. So I'm not holding my breath. But it wouldn't surprise me if the Steelheads were reaching out and, if nothing else, testing the waters.




Please say it is so.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Disengage said:


> Thanks Herb.




Who is Herb?


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

PCSPounder said:


> Did you read what I wrote?
> 
> However, here's a trick. Can you put a league in larger markets that would support hockey and have economies just diverse enough so as not to blow up a league just for one small downturn, yet hold down the ambition? Can you sell "blood and guts" that way without giving markets false expectations that they should be NHL markets? "Pocketbook friendly, NOT family friendly!" I highly doubt it.




Would depend on markets. A lot of the markets in minor league hockey are nowhere near NHL possible. However take a place like a Charlotte or Cincinnati with their capital sizes....yeah they could have NHL teams theoretically. They have other pro sports teams.


----------



## JDogindy

Cacciaguida said:


> I sure hope Brampton can hold on. They'd be great fit for Toronto.




A year ago, I was kinda pulling for Brampton folding.

But, this year, I'd rather they survive, especially if the ECHL can get into New England or upstate New York. That'd be so much easier for them, travel-wise.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Travel maybe but attendance will be a killer. I think teams like them Elmira, Wheeling, Adirondack and the New England teams 5 years from now will be goners.


----------



## Disengage

SFTC Addict said:


> Who is Herb?




Herb Brooks.


----------



## speedrissr

An article with the Alaska Aces view of things:

http://www.adn.com/article/20150128/amid-expected-ahlechl-shake-aces-here-stay

If the former CHL teams have any input, the onus is on Alaska to bear the costs of the increased travel.

Al?

RLR


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Alaska is on an island but how bad is travel when you fly everywhere. Isn't it cheaper than by bus?


----------



## speedrissr

*ECHL to announce 30 / 30 / 30 relationship tomorrow*

Or Probably not.

From the league:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Jan. 29, 2015
MORE INFORMATION: Joe Babik, ECHL Director of Communications, (609) 452-0770, x-16

MEDIA ADVISORY
ECHL to make major announcement

PRINCETON, N.J. - The ECHL will make a major announcement tomorrow (Friday, Jan. 30) at 3 p.m. ET regarding League Membership and its roster of teams for the 2015-16 season. The League will have no further comment on the announcement at this time. 

Al?

RLR


----------



## StingraysFan

ECHL Commish has said repeatedly he wants the Las Vegas Wranglers to come back and Reno to start up. Replacing the California 3 with 2 Nevada teams right on the Cali border would work just fine with the ECHL Western Division.

Las Vegas is still shown on the ECHL website:

http://www.lasvegaswranglers.com/news/las-vegas-wranglers-to-return-to-the-ice-for-2015-16-season/

And Reno is listed as a Future Market:

http://www.echl.com/future-markets-s12362#

There is your 30/30/30 - Just move Stockton's logo over to Reno and the other two to Glen Falls and Norfolk and there is your new ECHL map....


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Pass on the 30-30-30 BS. 

I'm gunna guess Elmira, Brampton and Wheeling are out. None of those teams are coming close to making money.

Adirondack and maybe the Chesters in the New England area are in I'd suspect. Don't know or care about Norfolk.

This league needs a few years to weed out the franchises on life support before they even consider 30 teams.


----------



## JackalsKnuckles

SFTC Addict said:


> Pass on the 30-30-30 BS.
> 
> I'm gunna guess Elmira, Brampton and Wheeling are out. None of those teams are coming close to making money.
> 
> Adirondack and maybe the Chesters in the New England area are in I'd suspect. Don't know or care about Norfolk.
> 
> This league needs a few years to weed out the franchises on life support before they even consider 30 teams.




Season ticket rep in Elmira told me last season that they had to average 3500 to be viable when they tried to get me to renew my tickets. (Basically saying if I don't buy my tickets and the team folds it is my fault as well as the other fans who dropped their tickets). I know way more people have left as season ticket holders, and sounds like the management ticked off quite a few more so I don't see how they stay in the league averaging 2400.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

JackalsKnuckles said:


> Season ticket rep in Elmira told me last season that they had to average 3500 to be viable when they tried to get me to renew my tickets. (Basically saying if I don't buy my tickets and the team folds it is my fault as well as the other fans who dropped their tickets). I know way more people have left as season ticket holders, and sounds like the management ticked off quite a few more so I don't see how they stay in the league averaging 2400.




Lol that's horrible to say considering they don't even have 2,000 ticket holds let alone the 3,500 needed. You giving up makes no difference really. I'm not sure they have 1,000 down there anymore. Its been declining since 2012 I'm sure and there's no way it went up this year. 

Only way they can survive is if there's a magical place to pull money out of to keep the team strong enough. People were quick to bag on Afr but he was making money on the team. Albeit not paying bills on things but the team itself was fine. People begged for change. Change isn't always better. People claim these guys are richer than Afr. I'm not sure they were quick to donate it after 1 year owning both lol


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Yeah, merging these topics as the title was just base speculation.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

The title I'm sure was meant to be sarcasm. That's how I took it because I don't see 30-30-30 happening. The NHL doesn't want it or need it. The ECHL needs the NHL more than the NHL needs the ECHL. The ECHL couldn't dictate a 30-30-30 even If they had just 30 even teams.


----------



## ForsbergForever

If weaker teams like Elmira, Wheeling, etc start folding, I could see this being a boon for Single A hockey. If the ECHL is trying to make itself a more reputable league that is more closely associated with the NHL, single A could absorb the smaller cities that are suited to a more amateur operation and only draw crowds in the 1000-2000 range.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

ForsbergForever said:


> If weaker teams like Elmira, Wheeling, etc start folding, I could see this being a boon for Single A hockey. If the ECHL is trying to make itself a more reputable league that is more closely associated with the NHL, single A could absorb the smaller cities that are suited to a more amateur operation and only draw crowds in the 1000-2000 range.




And stick them where? Elmira and Wheeling are kinda far from the SPHL and the FHL is kind of a joke. The SPHL I'd the only good A league.


----------



## Clinton Comets EHL

SFTC Addict said:


> And stick them where? Elmira and Wheeling are kinda far from the SPHL and the FHL is kind of a joke. The SPHL I'd the only good A league.




The 30-30-30 fantasy is just that....fantasy. The NHL has no interest in the ECHL except to stuff a goalie or a couple 4th line "prospects"


----------



## wildcat48

McKenna held his press conference in Glens Falls this morning w/ Petrovek.

Stockton>>>>>>Glens Falls
Ontario>>>>>>>Manchester
Bakersfield>>>>>Norfolk

Those are the only moves this season, which means no Worcester. League currently at 28 teams, but expect to be at 30 teams by '16-'17.


----------



## aparch

6768clintoncomets575 said:


> The 30-30-30 fantasy is just that....fantasy. The NHL has no interest in the ECHL except to stuff a goalie or a couple 4th line "prospects"




Isn't that the equivalent of AA baseball in regards to the MLB? Or even A baseball?


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

aparch said:


> Isn't that the equivalent of AA baseball in regards to the MLB? Or even A baseball?




A but there's different A, AA and even AAA leagues.


----------



## Woo Hockey

Seems to be a push for a Bruins ECHL affiliate in Worcester... hmmmm


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

I'd easily bet a buttload of cash that in 2016-2017 they don't have 30 teams. Plus they don't know if a team will fold yet this year. Its only January. Folds unless mid season are never publicly announced in a conference like that. 

They should be careful. Back in like 07-08 they rushed to have 28 teams. Some teams went by the wayside fast.


----------



## lvwranglersfan

No Wranglers return, this was posted on the team's facebook page by the owner.

Dear Las Vegas Wrangler Supporters,

I want to thank you, our fans, sponsors, media, staff, players and coaches for the support you have displayed for the Las Vegas Wranglers. I enjoyed getting to know many of you. You were certainly a loud crowd voicing your backing for the team, win or lose.

As you know we have been searching for a new home for the Las Vegas Wranglers for the past year. Unfortunately despite a great amount of effort led by Billy Johnson we were unable to secure a new facility.

At the ECHL mid-season meeting I informed the commissioner that we were voluntarily withdrawing from membership in the ECHL. Thus the reign of the Las Vegas Wranglers comes to an end.

Thank you all once again for your tremendous support over the years.

Sincerely,
Gary Jacobs


----------



## Ginormousthumbs

Not really a surprise


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## Sports Enthusiast

Classy way to do it. Wish Elmira would have done it but the whole thing was a shady go. Maybe las vegas will see NHL hockey one day. You gotta wonder why if the owner says that, that the team emblem is still on the site.


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## lvwranglersfan

SFTC Addict said:


> Classy way to do it. Wish Elmira would have done it but the whole thing was a shady go. Maybe las vegas will see NHL hockey one day. You gotta wonder why if the owner says that, that the team emblem is still on the site.




Probably because they haven't officially concluded the meeting. It will be announced today I guess, since there is a release coming at noon pacific time. It just sucks because we have traded affordable family entertainment for something no one can afford, and if they can, will be rooting for the visiting team. We would have had an AHL team but the NHL told them no, from what I heard.


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## Sports Enthusiast

lvwranglersfan said:


> Probably because they haven't officially concluded the meeting. It will be announced today I guess, since there is a release coming at noon pacific time. It just sucks because we have traded affordable family entertainment for something no one can afford, and if they can, will be rooting for the visiting team. We would have had an AHL team but the NHL told them no, from what I heard.




AHL is more expensive than the ECHL not sure by how much.


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## Ginormousthumbs

At some point Las Vegas has to take a shot. If you don't try, you'll never know. Can't be a minor league team town forever.


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## lvwranglersfan

SFTC Addict said:


> AHL is more expensive than the ECHL not sure by how much.




Agreed, but they aren't the 70 dollar average price the NHL will fetch, and for the seats I had for the Wranglers the NHL will charge 100+, when I paid 20.


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## lvwranglersfan

Ginormousthumbs said:


> At some point Las Vegas has to take a shot. If you don't try, you'll never know. Can't be a minor league team town forever.




I was happy being a minor league town. We don't make enough money in this town to be a major league town. Plus, I like the fact I could actually get to know the players who were here. Sure, they may never make the big time, but saying you can hang out with professional athletes is cool. 

I will go to this new arena on the strip when my Sharks come to town, otherwise, I will not. When I travel to the Bay Area I take in some games, but overall, the value for money is not good. I am paying at least 5 times the price I paid for minor league hockey, but not getting 5 times the entertainment.


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## Ginormousthumbs

I guess we will have to wait and see over the next few months if there is enough interest in this town to bring an NHL team here. You might not be able to afford season tickets, but I'm sure there are those who can. The Wranglers had a good run and I always enjoyed my time with them, but it is time to move on.


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## LadyStanley

*Announcement from ECHL BOG meetings regarding membership moves, etc*

http://echl.com/echl-board-of-governors-announces-major-moves-p196041

Includes moving Stockton, Bakersfield, Ontario; Las Vegas withdraws membership.

Also cap # of franchises at 30.


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## Shootmaster_44

There's article on the Monarchs site talking about their move. 

http://www.manchestermonarchs.com/news/monarchsnews/?article_id=538

It mentions retaining Ontario's Kings ECHL affiliation, but nothing about Ontario's Jets ECHL affiliation. Is this simply one of those things because the Kings' brass was at the presser or are the Jets looking for a new ECHL affiliate?


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## Sports Enthusiast

I didn't know the Jets had an ECHL team.


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## HansH

SFTC Addict said:


> I didn't know the Jets had an ECHL team.




They don't have an ECHL _team_, they have a partial affiliation agreement with the ECHL Ontario Reign.


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## LadyStanley

http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/sport...und-Condors-launch-fan-contest-290388761.html

Bakersfield having name the team contest. Even accepting logo ideas.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Just name it after Jimmie Johnson somehow.


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## CBlake

SFTC Addict said:


> Pass on the 30-30-30 BS.
> 
> I'm gunna guess Elmira, Brampton and Wheeling are out. None of those teams are coming close to making money.
> 
> Adirondack and maybe the Chesters in the New England area are in I'd suspect. Don't know or care about Norfolk.
> 
> This league needs a few years to weed out the franchises on life support before they even consider 30 teams.




The best thing Brampton could do is get the Maple Leafs ECHL affiliation, not sure how attached the Leafs are to Orlando. In conduction with that rebrand and as the Brampton Maple Leafs and just the perception alone would change, getting them on a better footing.


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## Sports Enthusiast

CBlake said:


> The best thing Brampton could do is get the Maple Leafs ECHL affiliation, not sure how attached the Leafs are to Orlando. In conduction with that rebrand and as the Brampton Maple Leafs and just the perception alone would change, getting them on a better footing.




Isn't Brampton almost in Red Wings territory?


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## Disengage

SFTC Addict said:


> Isn't Brampton almost in Red Wings territory?




No. Brampton's arena is 22 miles from Air Canada Centre.


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## JungleJON

SFTC Addict said:


> Pass on the 30-30-30 BS.
> 
> I'm gunna guess Elmira, Brampton and Wheeling are out. None of those teams are coming close to making money.
> 
> Adirondack and maybe the Chesters in the New England area are in I'd suspect. Don't know or care about Norfolk.
> 
> This league needs a few years to weed out the franchises on life support before they even consider 30 teams.




Wheeling Nailers Announce 2015-2016 Season Ticket Packages

http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=4922548


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## Sports Enthusiast

SenorChifles said:


> Wheeling Nailers Announce 2015-2016 Season Ticket Packages
> 
> http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=4922548




I'm shocked that franchise can keep going. They have been losing money forever and poor attendance. That new local ownership group can't be nearly as rich as the Brooks Bros.


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## CrazyEddie20

The owners in WHL aren't nearly as rich as the Brooks Brothers. But just because they are are taking season ticket deposits doesn't mean they are playing next year - plenty of teams have taken deposits and folded. They can put the deposit money (which can often be a substantial amount) into an account that makes decent interest, and then refund it - or not (San Francisco Bulls, I'm looking at you).


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## Artie Fufkin

They're not pushing regular season tickets, they're pushing season ticket holders to make a commitment to buy season tickets for the next 3 years, albeit at the same rate.


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## Sports Enthusiast

JackalsKnuckles said:


> Season ticket rep in Elmira told me last season that they had to average 3500 to be viable when they tried to get me to renew my tickets. (Basically saying if I don't buy my tickets and the team folds it is my fault as well as the other fans who dropped their tickets). I know way more people have left as season ticket holders, and sounds like the management ticked off quite a few more so I don't see how they stay in the league averaging 2400.




1515 at the game tonight. LMAO


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## HansH

SFTC Addict said:


> 1515 at the game tonight. LMAO




Is there _ANYTHING_ you ever have a positive comment about?


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## SemireliableSource

I heard he once said a burrito joint was "alright". Does that count?


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## Sports Enthusiast

FrancoRussianAlaskan said:


> I heard he once said a burrito joint was "alright". Does that count?




When was that. I'm not a big fan of Mexican food.


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## Sports Enthusiast

JackalsKnuckles said:


> Season ticket rep in Elmira told me last season that they had to average 3500 to be viable when they tried to get me to renew my tickets. (Basically saying if I don't buy my tickets and the team folds it is my fault as well as the other fans who dropped their tickets). I know way more people have left as season ticket holders, and sounds like the management ticked off quite a few more so I don't see how they stay in the league averaging 2400.




So I see today they are bringing back the early bird. Dumb to ever get rid of it. You going back? Lol


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## mk80

My guess is Brampton will try the next year out in the eastern conference under a regular schedule where they don't have to trek out to the Midwest to play the former CHL teams.


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## Sports Enthusiast

I'm shocked they have lasted all year really.


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## Off da post and in

SFTC Addict said:


> I'm shocked they have lasted all year really.




I'm *NOT* shocked that you're shocked that they lasted all year.


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## sabremike

So I assume ADK Flames name stays, just a different league? Wish they'd bring back the Frostbite name and colors. Also hope the Jackals survive, hate to see Elmira lose that team.


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## JackalsKnuckles

SFTC Addict said:


> So I see today they are bringing back the early bird. Dumb to ever get rid of it. You going back? Lol





Definitely a good deal now, but I am happy going to the Elmira College games and not being committed to 36 games a year. Price in the Red End Zone are even lower than before now (although the $5 tickets in 109 are still cheaper than the $6 advertised season ticket price). 

Also advertising season tickets and actually being around for another year are 2 different things.


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## Sports Enthusiast

sabremike said:


> So I assume ADK Flames name stays, just a different league? Wish they'd bring back the Frostbite name and colors. Also hope the Jackals survive, hate to see Elmira lose that team.




Really wouldn't be too big of a deal. All the people who really cared gave up awhile ago (including myself)


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## Sports Enthusiast

JackalsKnuckles said:


> Definitely a good deal now, but I am happy going to the Elmira College games and not being committed to 36 games a year. Price in the Red End Zone are even lower than before now (although the $5 tickets in 109 are still cheaper than the $6 advertised season ticket price).
> 
> Also advertising season tickets and actually being around for another year are 2 different things.




Haha I didn't even look at the prices but if $6 season seats are true that may be the lowest I've seen. I think they realize now they have no leverage. The Jackals have the worst attendance in minor league hockey. They are bleeding in the red. This isn't fully up to date but close

http://www.mib.org/~lennier/hockey/att.cgi


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## HansH

sabremike said:


> So I assume ADK Flames name stays, just a different league?




Nope - Adirondack Thunder -- keeping the name the ECHL team used in Stockton before being moved.


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## Sports Enthusiast

They should use something more relateable to the Adirondacks.


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## Lunatik

sabremike said:


> So I assume ADK Flames name stays, just a different league? Wish they'd bring back the Frostbite name and colors. Also hope the Jackals survive, hate to see Elmira lose that team.



Adirondack Thunder

They unveiled the name and logo on the 11th.








SFTC Addict said:


> They should use something more relateable to the Adirondacks.



Is thunder more relatable to California than upstate New York somehow? I haven't been to New York State, but I have been as far east a Michigan and they had some pretty intense thunderstorms when I was there. So I assume it's not much different in Upstate New York. When I was in California there was a bunch of rain but I didn't experience much for thunderstorms. Seems to me that Thunder is a name that could be used in pretty much any location.


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## offkilter

Adopting the Thunder name and logo in Adirondack makes no sense unless Calgary is looking to unload the team on a local owner and a generic name might make that easier to do. Seriously if they are affiliated to the Flames why not keep the Adirondack Flames name? All this is likely to accomplish is piss off the overwhelming majority of Stockton fans who want to keep the Thunder name for the AHL team next year.


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## Thunder God

offkilter said:


> Adopting the Thunder name and logo in Adirondack makes no sense unless Calgary is looking to unload the team on a local owner and a generic name might make that easier to do. Seriously if they are affiliated to the Flames why not keep the Adirondack Flames name? All this is likely to accomplish is piss off the overwhelming majority of Stockton fans who want to keep the Thunder name for the AHL team next year.




The name of this team makes sense because every state has Thunderstorms.


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## Hoodaha

offkilter said:


> Adopting the Thunder name and logo in Adirondack makes no sense unless Calgary is looking to unload the team on a local owner and a generic name might make that easier to do. Seriously if they are affiliated to the Flames why not keep the Adirondack Flames name? All this is likely to accomplish is piss off the overwhelming majority of Stockton fans who want to keep the Thunder name for the AHL team next year.




I don't see why a team in a different league can't be called the Thunder, as well. That said, Calgary will probably want their stamp on the team, so I'd bet it changes.


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## Sports Enthusiast

When I think of upstate NY I think of cold and freezing most of the year.


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## Disengage

Hoodaha said:


> *I don't see why a team in a different league can't be called the Thunder, as well.* That said, Calgary will probably want their stamp on the team, so I'd bet it changes.




Well, there's already another ECHL team called the Thunder (Wichita)


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## Clinton Comets EHL

Disengage said:


> Well, there's already another ECHL team called the Thunder (Wichita)




http://www.wichitathunder.com/

Seriously, why would they do this? 

Never noticed / forgot about the former CHL team Thunder.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Didn't the AHL recently a few years back have 2 teams with the same nickname?


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## CrazyEddie20

They still do.


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## SemireliableSource

Still do until Norfolk is officially in the ECHL. Norfolk and Milwaukee are both the Admirals. Been that way since Milwaukee came from the IHL.


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## Sports Enthusiast

I guess this wouldn't matter as Wichita came into the league from another and obviously Milwaukee did the same. However Adirondack is sort of a new franchise. I mean its not but they are inheriting a team from elsewhere. Its unfortunate they won't decide another name.


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## olebaron

When OKC and Wichita were in the CHL, the OKC game announcer referred to the Thunder as the Blunder. There was a comment board called the CHL Underground. I started using Blunder when referring to Wichita and soon found that some thunder fans didn't think that was funny.


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## Off da post and in

SFTC Addict said:


> Didn't the AHL recently a few years back have 2 teams with the same nickname?




I'll raise you one. The SEC has 3 *TIGERS*, Auburn, LSU, and Missouri. They also have 2 *Bulldogs* Georgia and Mississippi State.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Off da post and in said:


> I'll raise you one. The SEC has 3 *TIGERS*, Auburn, LSU, and Missouri. They also have 2 *Bulldogs* Georgia and Mississippi State.




How many nicknames exist? FBS has we'll over 100 schools. Nicknames run out fast.


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## Nightsquad

Disengage said:


> Well, there's already another ECHL team called the Thunder (Wichita)




Its the ECHL Central division which is comprised of only games within the division. The AHL is actually following the ECHL lead with next years Pacific Division. When thew ECHL this season absorbed the former CHL it created what is now known as the central division. All the teams of that division play within the division only during the regular season. It keeps travel costs down, the only other way they will play outside of the division, for this season atleast would be to advance out of the division round in the playoffs. The Witchita Thunder or Adirondack Thunder wont likely see one another unless both advance towards one another in the Kelly Cup finals lol. Rustbelt cities like Binghampton, Allentown, Hershey, or Rochester wont even get to play Stockton, Ontario, San Jose, or San Diego in gorgeous Cali next season unless they meet in the Calder Cup finals. Those new western based AHL clubs will be in the Pacific Divison which is exactly the same division which is what existed in the ECHL. I am sure one day we might even see an expanded eastern division of the ECHL with more upstate NY and New England teams.


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## JDogindy

And it is highly unlikely Wichita and Adirondack will play against each other next season, as well.


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## Avsrule2022

Nightsquad said:


> Its the ECHL Central division which is comprised of only games within the division. The AHL is actually following the ECHL lead with next years Pacific Division. When thew ECHL this season absorbed the former CHL it created what is now known as the central division. All the teams of that division play within the division only during the regular season. It keeps travel costs down, the only other way they will play outside of the division, for this season atleast would be to advance out of the division round in the playoffs. The Witchita Thunder or Adirondack Thunder wont likely see one another unless both advance towards one another in the Kelly Cup finals lol. Rustbelt cities like Binghampton, Allentown, Hershey, or Rochester wont even get to play Stockton, Ontario, San Jose, or San Diego in gorgeous Cali next season unless they meet in the Calder Cup finals. Those new western based AHL clubs will be in the Pacific Divison which is exactly the same division which is what existed in the ECHL. I am sure one day we might even see an expanded eastern division of the ECHL with more upstate NY and New England teams.



The Central division of the ECHL actually plays over 40 games this year outside their division. The main reason for the scheduling was that there wasn't enough time to re-do the schedule after the merger went through. Starting next year every team in the Western Conference will travel East every year and every East team will travel West every 3 years.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Avsrule2002 said:


> The Central division of the ECHL actually plays over 40 games this year outside their division. The main reason for the scheduling was that there wasn't enough time to re-do the schedule after the merger went through. Starting next year every team in the Western Conference will travel East every year and every East team will travel West every 3 years.




Depends where West. I hope they avoid sending teams to Alaska for one. Anywhere else is okay now that the California's are gone. They could really cheapout and send everyone to like...Cincinnati lol


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## blizz71

I have to disagree that the nicknames that are available can run out. I think its more of a situation that people just get lazy and don't know how to be creative.

Take LSU and Auburn for example. Auburn's rally/fight song is War Eagle, which would be a great nickname. As for LSU, the fans sometimes refer to the teams as the Bayou Bengals. That is far better than Tigers.

As for me, I've always like the nickname for the University of California at Irvine, the Anteaters.


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## Off da post and in

Three good nicknames for teams; UC- Santa Cruz Banana Slugs, Lansing Lugnuts, UC- Long Beach Dirtbags.


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## JDogindy

Don't forget Bowling Green Hot Rods, Fort Wayne Tin Cups, and Wisconsin Timber Rattlers.


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## HansH

None of them win the best of all time. Hands-down, that was the CHL Macon Whoopee


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## SemireliableSource

Scottsdale Community College Fighting Artichokes


----------



## offkilter

Las Vegas Hookers.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Las Vegas being a gambling town should have had a gambling type.name. they could have named it after the amazing Jimmy The Greek.


----------



## JimB

HansH said:


> None of them win the best of all time. Hands-down, that was the CHL Macon Whoopee




Initially at least, the Macon Whoopee were in the short-lived Southern Hockey League of the mid-1970's.


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## HansH

JimB said:


> Initially at least, the Macon Whoopee were in the short-lived Southern Hockey League of the mid-1970's.




No, those were the Macon Whoopees, IIRC.


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## Clinton Comets EHL

HansH said:


> No, those were the Macon Whoopees, IIRC.




http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/229.html

Yep


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## JimB

HansH said:


> No, those were the Macon Whoopees, IIRC.




I was a season ticket holder for the Roanoke Valley Rebels of the SHL back in 73-74. Forgot that they were the Whoopees not the Whoopee.


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## iamjs

Off da post and in said:


> Three good nicknames for teams; *UC- Santa Cruz Banana Slugs*, Lansing Lugnuts, UC- Long Beach Dirtbags.


----------



## mk80

I have to say the SPHL may have some the best nicknames the Louisiana IceGators, FireAntz, Havoc. And formerly Jacksonville Barracudas. 

But my all time favorite nickname was the former Bossier Shreveport Mudbugs! With a close second going to the Albany River Rats.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

Will Worcester get a E team or do think hockey is done there


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## JDogindy

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> Will Worcester get a E team or do think hockey is done there




I asked this question over at the AHL Westward Movement thread, and the thing I got is that, while it could work, I'm not sure if there's anybody in the Worcester area that'll help start up a team.

But I believe there is market value in the return of the Ice Cats.


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## mk80

For the immediate season unless a ownership springs up over the summer that is tied with the Sharks in some form, I don't think Worcester will be playing next season. However down the road there might be a group willing to buy into an ECHL franchise.

It would be cool to see to Ice Cats resurrected.


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## Sports Enthusiast

I'm sure so many in Worcester were San Jose Sharks fans lol


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## JDogindy

Sports Enthusiast said:


> I'm sure so many in Worcester were San Jose Sharks fans lol




Much like how many people in Battle Creek were Yankees fans in baseball. At least when the team was in Cleveland, they used the Barons name and had fun with the logo.

To me, the laziest nickname you can give a minor league team is the nickname of the parent club.


----------

