# What you lose when you join the ECHL



## speedrissr

I posted this on the local Wichita board and I think it rings true, so I thought I'd share since we cut / traded a local fan favorite today:
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To quote Blake Sebring (One of Fort Wayne's beat writers) from his article I posted yesterday (Here is the link: http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20141008/SPORTS/141009678):

"the Komets may no longer have face-of-the-franchise players like Colin Chaulk, Guy Dupuis, Nick Boucher or a Kaleigh Schrock, likely the last Fort Wayne skater to play as many as five years."

It stinks to lose a guy like Summers, who was one of the few guys ever to spend time with the kids outside of Thunder functions, but its part of what the ECHL is, something we're going to lose as we become an ECHL franchise. Knowing Matt slightly on a personal level, I can speak to how much he enjoys hanging out at the rink with younger players. He's a great guy and it hurts Wichita's youth program to lose a guy like him.

The last few summers have been some of the few times where Thunder players have worked with local kids to help advance their play. Summers, Flath, and Lowe all spent significant time working camps with local kids as part of their efforts to improve local hockey and also to learn how to coach kids. This didn't happen much if at all before Mac (Kevin McClelland, Wichita's coach, who has four Stanley Cup rings when he played with the Edmonton Oilers) got here and the Steven's group (Wichita's owners, who also run the local rink here) took over the Thunder and the Ice Center, the few exceptions I can recall were Jason Duda and Tyler Liebel, other than that, the Thunder players weren't that interested in working with local kids. Part of that is the guys who put the time in and were motivated to run camps, part of it was Mac and the Steven's group working to find and give guys like RG, Matt and Ian a chance to do this, along with the players motivation to do so. Its part of being part of a true developmental league, no different than being a baseball player in a town with a A, AA or AA baseball team. These guys aren't as much motivated to be a local presence and help local kids as they are in improving their chances to move up. Its not a bad thing, just part of what you get when you have a local team that is developmental, as opposed to something more like the Thunder were and the Wingnuts (a local non affilianted independant league baseball team) are.

You don't see this much, if ever, in most ECHL cities, due to the nature of the league. The ECHL is what it is, a developmental league, one of the things you lose is having guys like Jason Duda stick around for 15 years. You might get the rare chance to see a goalie end up in the NHL, but you rarely get to watch a guy for 5, much less 15 years.

Plus, ignoring what the kids lose, you don't get the chance to go plus 2 against a guy like Ian Lowe during a summer league game, either. Like I just posted, welcome to the ECHL.

Al?

RLR


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## PCSPounder

Those might be fair comments and sentiments.

That ethos doesn't seem to have sustained any other leagues in this era.

Having said that- soccer fan time. The similar level to ECHL in the US is USL PRO, run by United Soccer Leagues. Most MLS teams will have either an affiliation or their own team next year. That's not chasing out some established teams that have few or no connections. The league anticipates having 5-6 more teams than MLS does next year.

So my question... is the ECHL wedded to the 1:1:1 concept to the exclusion of other possible teams, or can the league think out of the box here?


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## speedrissr

PCSPounder said:


> So my question... is the ECHL wedded to the 1:1:1 concept to the exclusion of other possible teams, or can the league think out of the box here?




I don't think that the ECHL can sustain 28, much less 30 or 32 (If Hamilton and another NHL city get teams as rumored for years). I'd bet the ECHL has 25 or less teams next year, between the AHL moving west and the instability of the ECHL in general (The ECHL has, on average, had three teams fold or move, including three mid season folds). If they lose the West Coast teams and three or four other teams fold (Sorry, "Suspend operations"), they're back to where they were before absorbing the CHL.

Al?

RLR


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## bhigo59

speedrissr said:


> I posted this on the local Wichita board and I think it rings true, so I thought I'd share since we cut / traded a local fan favorite today:
> -----------------------
> To quote Blake Sebring (One of Fort Wayne's beat writers) from his article I posted yesterday (Here is the link: http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20141008/SPORTS/141009678):
> 
> "the Komets may no longer have face-of-the-franchise players like Colin Chaulk, Guy Dupuis, Nick Boucher or a Kaleigh Schrock, likely the last Fort Wayne skater to play as many as five years."
> 
> It stinks to lose a guy like Summers, who was one of the few guys ever to spend time with the kids outside of Thunder functions, but its part of what the ECHL is, something we're going to lose as we become an ECHL franchise. Knowing Matt slightly on a personal level, I can speak to how much he enjoys hanging out at the rink with younger players. He's a great guy and it hurts Wichita's youth program to lose a guy like him.
> 
> The last few summers have been some of the few times where Thunder players have worked with local kids to help advance their play. Summers, Flath, and Lowe all spent significant time working camps with local kids as part of their efforts to improve local hockey and also to learn how to coach kids. This didn't happen much if at all before Mac (Kevin McClelland, Wichita's coach, who has four Stanley Cup rings when he played with the Edmonton Oilers) got here and the Steven's group (Wichita's owners, who also run the local rink here) took over the Thunder and the Ice Center, the few exceptions I can recall were Jason Duda and Tyler Liebel, other than that, the Thunder players weren't that interested in working with local kids. Part of that is the guys who put the time in and were motivated to run camps, part of it was Mac and the Steven's group working to find and give guys like RG, Matt and Ian a chance to do this, along with the players motivation to do so. Its part of being part of a true developmental league, no different than being a baseball player in a town with a A, AA or AA baseball team. These guys aren't as much motivated to be a local presence and help local kids as they are in improving their chances to move up. Its not a bad thing, just part of what you get when you have a local team that is developmental, as opposed to something more like the Thunder were and the Wingnuts (a local non affilianted independant league baseball team) are.
> 
> You don't see this much, if ever, in most ECHL cities, due to the nature of the league. The ECHL is what it is, a developmental league, one of the things you lose is having guys like Jason Duda stick around for 15 years. You might get the rare chance to see a goalie end up in the NHL, but you rarely get to watch a guy for 5, much less 15 years.
> 
> Plus, ignoring what the kids lose, you don't get the chance to go plus 2 against a guy like Ian Lowe during a summer league game, either. Like I just posted, welcome to the ECHL.
> 
> Al?
> 
> RLR





I have to disagree with what you have stated for the most part. Here in Reading, Ryan Cruthers lives up to most you have stated with the youth programs and years with the team. This may be a isolated case but it shows it does happen. Once again Ryan is a member of the Royals and his commitment to the youth and area will continue. It just really matters to each players commitment to the town they play in. If a certain player decides to be involved in the area, it's a win for not only the player but for the community, usually most of the team follows those commitments also. Here in Reading the Royals are committed to the region and are very involved with the youth also. Before the Royals were founded 14 years ago hockey wasn't noticed much in the area. Now there are high school teams, bantam teams, and the Jr. Royals have been founded. So you can see it takes individual efforts as well as the dedication of the organization that plays there. Hopefully the Witchita region will see that committment from the Thunder and the players to keep those past traditions alive. Welcome to the E !!!


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## spitshockey81

Must depend on the team/players. I've played open hockey with numerous ECHL players who played for the local team and were pretty much hanging out at the rink and been in several camps with ECHL and AHL players growing up.


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## Gibbie42

It certainly happens in ECHL cities. One of our former players runs the local youth hockey association. One of our current players stayed in town all summer and coached youth hockey. Several of them ran a hockey camp for kids just before the season started and even Coach Mullins came out and worked with the kids. During the season our trainer runs an antibullying program that presents to local schools. He and three or four of the players will go out and speak to the school groups about how to recognize bullying and how to stop it. Our assistant coach (who was a player until this season)'s wife runs a clean up Evansville program with a group of volunteers who once an month go out and clean various neighborhoods. The players are as active and involved in the community as they can be.

This whole notion of players that never stick around that fans won't ever got to know because they're only interested in moving up is some boogie man to scare people with. Yes, you'll have some players that will pass through but you'll always have players that get involved in the community, that look forward to coming back season after season and some that will indeed make a home there. You'll have fan favorites that will move on but you'll have new ones that will come in. It's the way hockey works.


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## PCSPounder

Let's be honest. Scouting is good enough to consider half these players at the highest level they'll reach, and the "parent" usually owns only 3-4 players. There's plenty of chances for having a core of players who stick around a while.


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## HansH

PCSPounder said:


> Let's be honest. Scouting is good enough to consider half these players at the highest level they'll reach, and the "parent" usually owns only 3-4 players. There's plenty of chances for having a core of players who stick around a while.




Disagree -- I went through a league transition myself with the WCHL/ECHL era San Diego Gulls, and really, the difference between the WCHL's vet rules (you needed a minimum of five players with fewer than 150 games pro experience at one point, or something like that) and the ECHL's (you could have a maximum of four players with more than 288 games of experience) was night and day.

San Diego KNEW the business importance of having a core of players who stick around for a while -- but the scarcity of those vet spots makes it a lot harder for a team to both stay under the salary cap AND retain any vet who is good enough to stay in that slot. So, even with the parent only owning a couple of contracts, that mostly left the Gulls to recruit their own ECHL-level players, with few perks to offer players to remain as a core... so the core eroded.

That's not the REASON the Gulls failed, but it is an accurate description of the change of the makeup of the team that was an inevitable result of the league rule changes. The season ticket holders did lose a bit of family, a bit of closeness -- I don't think the reaction to BJ MacPherson's neck injury in the Finals in 2001 would have been quite as visceral had it been someone on the 2005 or 2006 teams, which is kind of sad to look back and see.

BUT -- this is not to say that the ECHL is bad, or that this is a reason that absorptions shouldn't have happened. It's just a fair description of the inevitabilities of change.


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## Sports Enthusiast

You lose a lot. I don't think the play is better than the old UHL. Talent? Eh. A good AA hockey player is a good AA hockey player. The ECHL is just a brainwashed numbers game.


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## Andre Poodle Lussier

Reading is one of the exceptions to the rule in the ECHL. Despite Royal fans griping about the way the club is/was run for years, the strength of SMG/AEG's wallets helped lay a really strong foundation in this town and helped create the hockey programs and community support that still go on today. It helped tremendously when a parent club is not only invested in its AA affiliate, but they're willing to take losses (the Royals lose money more often than not) to make it work. Am curious to see how local ownership impacts everything here in the coming years and if the Royals can turn a slow slide in attendance around.

Here are the teams that were in the ECHL in 2001 that are still in the ECHL today, within the same market, without any folds or relocations. For this, Toledo will count because of the arena rebuild even though they took a couple of years off.

Toledo
Wheeling
Florida
South Carolina
Fort Wayne

Including the WCHL teams, you can add...

Alaska
Bakersfield
Idaho

Including the CHL, you can add...

Tulsa
Wichita

You have about a third of the league in the same spot as they were in 2001. Not good considering the level of stability in minor league baseball (yeah, I know it's a different sport and blah blah blah, but stability matters in general).

If the ECHL is to be a developmental league, the model that it operates under now needs to change. The 50 contract limit in the NHL has to be expanded to about 60, meaning that 13-14 guys are parked at the E level instead of 3-4. It's about a million dollars between benefits and pay per NHL club, not a huge investment, and it takes a lot off of the AA club plate to know they're only on the hook for a half dozen or so players, who can be exempt from developmental rules (minor league vets plus the guy who is borderline AA material). This means the NHL has to buy into the ECHL more than it currently does and the ECHL needs to expect more from the NHL parents.

Direct ownership of an ECHL team by a NHL club doesn't always work (see Trenton with the Devils) but it can (see Reading as a good model from the SMG/AEG perspective). That said, an increased investment from the NHL will probably make it easier for the ECHL to find ownership groups that will make minor league hockey work...and will invest in it knowing there's more of a subsidy coming in from up top.

I will also add that the ECHL really, really needs to fill the gaps in the Mid Atlantic. If you think that the NE AHL teams are going to love AA hockey after decades of AAA hockey, I don't think it's going to happen in the short term...Utica, Adirondack, Worcester, and other towns that would be perfect AA fits probably won't take to it immediately so such a shift probably doesn't work in most places. It's going to take the Richmonds, the Roanokes, perhaps the Baltimores (where they haven't had hockey in over 15 years) of the world to help fill in the gaps geographically. In time, the NE AHL markets may warm to AA hockey but I don't see it as an immediate want. When I lived in Minneapolis and we lost the North Stars and got an IHL team (the Moose), nobody went to the games because it was deemed an inferior product (and rightfully so). I can't see most of the NE AHL markets clamoring for ECHL hockey...or supporting it out of the gate if the proposed AHL West takes hold. 

The tl;dr -- NHL needs to subsidize the ECHL more and the NE isn't going to support the ECHL if they lose their AHL teams.


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## Sidly

I right now love the new ownership. I am not a season ticket holder (college sucks), but they went through the database to see who comes to games and gave people calls. I received multiple calls asking about my experiences. They listened and it seems to be looking good. Heck they even bought a brand spanking new scoreboard. The last one just showed the score and had LEDs, the new one is a video board. Much better than the last one which was on the other side of the rink and would be hard to see. Also they have put money up to help renovate some areas to the arena. I am so excited to go home and go to a game the differences.


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## Gibbie42

Ft. Wayne was not in the ECHL in 2001. They were never in the ECHL until 2012-2014. In 2001 they were still in the original IHL.


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## CrazyEddie20

This is laughable.

You know what you would have lost had your teams not joined the ECHL?

This entire hockey season.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Even so true...this league isn't as great as some spew having seen it for over 7 years.


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## Off da post and in

Code:







SFTC Addict said:


> Even so true...this league isn't as great as some spew having seen it for over 7 years.




Simple solution: don't watch it, don't read about it, and lastly don't post about it.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Off da post and in said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simple solution: don't watch it, don't read about it, and lastly don't post about it.




Hard not to when you live in a city that has it and nothing else.


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## Off da post and in

SFTC Addict said:


> Hard not to when you live in a city that has it and nothing else.




It's not as hard as you think. I live near a major metropolitan area that has 2 MLB teams that are pathetic, one NFL team that is always a major disappointment, an NBA team that has been injury riddled for the past few years, and several college football and basketball teams that are non factors in their conferences. Not once have I gotten on any forums to complain about them 'til now.


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## HansH

CrazyEddie20 said:


> This is laughable.
> 
> You know what you would have lost had your teams not joined the ECHL?
> 
> This entire hockey season.




Cool your jets, brah. A mourning period for the shift of the culture fans can expect in the one-ice product is APPROPRIATE, even while being glad that the ECHL was there to catch the CHL's fall. I missed the "pro-heavy" WCHL as it evolved into near-ECHL rules before absorption, for example, but was still happy the ECHL was there for them.

It's possible to miss some things while appreciating others.


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## JDogindy

Off da post and in said:


> It's not as hard as you think. I live near a major metropolitan area that has 2 MLB teams that are pathetic, one NFL team that is always a major disappointment, an NBA team that has been injury riddled for the past few years, and several college football and basketball teams that are non factors in their conferences. Not once have I gotten on any forums to complain about them 'til now.




But don't you realize that this is the Internet, and it's much, much easier to complain about something you absolutely hate than praise something you like?

SFTC Addict hates the ECHL, so whenever the conference is discussed, he's just gonna diss on it. Now, I'm not praising the league, and I am fully aware that they tell their players a whopper of a lie when it comes to their future of possibly playing in the AHL or even the NHL, but independent leagues cannot survive anymore in hockey. But, at the same time, I feel that ECHL disdain can get overblown. The "don't like, don't watch" excuse is a terrible one when watching TV shows and movies, but in sports, it's a practical one unless the ECHL team is your only outlet for hockey support. So, if you don't particularly care about the league, I wouldn't bother discussing it unless the issue is about player development.

While the relationship of the ECHL to the NHL is paltry compared to how MLB respects its AA leagues, it is beneficial for the ECHL teams. Also, independent leagues can survive in baseball provided that are multiple markets who can support a franchise and regularly sell out an 8,000 seat ballpark (the Atlantic League is the most obvious example), but hockey? It's very fickle, so the expectations of an independent hockey league like the UHL or even the original IHL aren't as likely considering that a community CAN support a team for a few years, but various factors can undermine long-term support. In independent baseball, you can get away with an 8-team league provided those communities support those clubs, but in hockey, it's an eternal struggle to get a handful of vital markets to legitimately care.

So... you either have to go "corporate", you die out, or you have to settle for the FHL. It's depressing, but it's reality.


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## Off da post and in

JDogindy said:


> But don't you realize that this is the Internet, and it's much, much easier to complain about something you absolutely hate than praise something you like?
> 
> SFTC Addict hates the ECHL, so whenever the conference is discussed, he's just gonna diss on it. Now, I'm not praising the league, and I am fully aware that they tell their players a whopper of a lie when it comes to their future of possibly playing in the AHL or even the NHL, but independent leagues cannot survive anymore in hockey. But, at the same time, I feel that ECHL disdain can get overblown. The "don't like, don't watch" excuse is a terrible one when watching TV shows and movies, but in sports, it's a practical one unless the ECHL team is your only outlet for hockey support. So, if you don't particularly care about the league, I wouldn't bother discussing it unless the issue is about player development.
> 
> While the relationship of the ECHL to the NHL is paltry compared to how MLB respects its AA leagues, it is beneficial for the ECHL teams. Also, independent leagues can survive in baseball provided that are multiple markets who can support a franchise and regularly sell out an 8,000 seat ballpark (the Atlantic League is the most obvious example), but hockey? It's very fickle, so the expectations of an independent hockey league like the UHL or even the original IHL aren't as likely considering that a community CAN support a team for a few years, but various factors can undermine long-term support. In independent baseball, you can get away with an 8-team league provided those communities support those clubs, but in hockey, it's an eternal struggle to get a handful of vital markets to legitimately care.
> 
> So... you either have to go "corporate", you die out, or you have to settle for the FHL. It's depressing, but it's reality.




Dogindy, that was well thought out and stated clearly.

I'm fortunate there's an abundance of good hockey near my home. One reason, beside the love of the game, that I follow the ECHL, AHL, or NHL is to see how some of the local guys are doing. It adds to the enjoyment of the game when you've known the players since they played at the squirt level in youth hockey.


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## MrWilson*

Caught an ECHL game recently. Tickets were $18 and the taverns near the rink served great beer at happy hour prices. Fun night, kids love the game and not too hyped up on "stars". 

The hockey...not so good. Sloppy, uninspired play with a lot of guys that aren't much above my local beer league. Developmental league? Nah...its a parking lot for guys that didn't make it into the NHL/AHL club and still want to play after juniors or college. A few bright spots, but not many. Entertaining for the casual fan, dismal for anyone with expectations.


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## Sidly

It seems like it is a little hard to "lie" when they keep track of how many people make it to the bigs and since the get go. For any person who can do math with a calculator you can see an avg how many people can make it a year. As well as how many in an actual year.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Sidly said:


> It seems like it is a little hard to "lie" when they keep track of how many people make it to the bigs and since the get go. For any person who can do math with a calculator you can see an avg how many people can make it a year. As well as how many in an actual year.




Those numbers are as fudged as an unemployment survey. They would count a guy if he took a faceoff and had to come off and never saw another second of NHL action. They should only count guys who have played a full season in the NHL or guys who have gone up and stayed up. Not one stint never got back windows.



MrWilson said:


> Caught an ECHL game recently. Tickets were $18 and the taverns near the rink served great beer at happy hour prices. Fun night, kids love the game and not too hyped up on "stars".
> 
> The hockey...not so good. Sloppy, uninspired play with a lot of guys that aren't much above my local beer league. Developmental league? Nah...its a parking lot for guys that didn't make it into the NHL/AHL club and still want to play after juniors or college. A few bright spots, but not many. Entertaining for the casual fan, dismal for anyone with expectations.




Pretty much. That or has beans or never was's but saw a fair amount of AHL time.



JDogindy said:


> But don't you realize that this is the Internet, and it's much, much easier to complain about something you absolutely hate than praise something you like?
> 
> SFTC Addict hates the ECHL, so whenever the conference is discussed, he's just gonna diss on it. Now, I'm not praising the league, and I am fully aware that they tell their players a whopper of a lie when it comes to their future of possibly playing in the AHL or even the NHL, but independent leagues cannot survive anymore in hockey. But, at the same time, I feel that ECHL disdain can get overblown. The "don't like, don't watch" excuse is a terrible one when watching TV shows and movies, but in sports, it's a practical one unless the ECHL team is your only outlet for hockey support. So, if you don't particularly care about the league, I wouldn't bother discussing it unless the issue is about player development.
> 
> While the relationship of the ECHL to the NHL is paltry compared to how MLB respects its AA leagues, it is beneficial for the ECHL teams. Also, independent leagues can survive in baseball provided that are multiple markets who can support a franchise and regularly sell out an 8,000 seat ballpark (the Atlantic League is the most obvious example), but hockey? It's very fickle, so the expectations of an independent hockey league like the UHL or even the original IHL aren't as likely considering that a community CAN support a team for a few years, but various factors can undermine long-term support. In independent baseball, you can get away with an 8-team league provided those communities support those clubs, but in hockey, it's an eternal struggle to get a handful of vital markets to legitimately care.
> 
> So... you either have to go "corporate", you die out, or you have to settle for the FHL. It's depressing, but it's reality.




This is my only outlet unless I wanna commute a couple hours. Minor league hickey 10-15 years ago was solid. Now...its the AHL and some league u have no idea why NHL teams waste time with. For AHL teams it makes sense. The FHL has potential if it was run better. Seems like the old UHL just run very poorly. Guys playing for the love of the game, physicality, rivalries and so on.


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## ripham23232

SFTC Addict said:


> Those numbers are as fudged as an unemployment survey. They would count a guy if he took a faceoff and had to come off and never saw another second of NHL action. They should only count guys who have played a full season in the NHL or guys who have gone up and stayed up. Not one stint never got back windows.




Why? The player made it to the NHL. He counts as an NHL player. It isn't the ECHL's responsibility to make sure said player stays in the league for x amount of time. He played in the ECHL, then got to the big show, so the ECHL has every right to count him.


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## Avsrule2022

ripham23232 said:


> Why? The player made it to the NHL. He counts as an NHL player. It isn't the ECHL's responsibility to make sure said player stays in the league for x amount of time. He played in the ECHL, then got to the big show, so the ECHL has every right to count him.



Not to mention he got paid like an NHL player, even if it was only one game. And ask that player how he feels about that one faceoff. Highlight of his career.


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## JDogindy

MrWilson said:


> Caught an ECHL game recently. Tickets were $18 and the taverns near the rink served great beer at happy hour prices. Fun night, kids love the game and not too hyped up on "stars".
> 
> The hockey...not so good. Sloppy, uninspired play with a lot of guys that aren't much above my local beer league. Developmental league? Nah...its a parking lot for guys that didn't make it into the NHL/AHL club and still want to play after juniors or college. A few bright spots, but not many. Entertaining for the casual fan, dismal for anyone with expectations.




After I have seen two Fuel home games on TV, I agree with this.

It's perfect for the casual fan largely because of the fact that there's a lot of scoring (both games have been 5-4 outcomes against the Fuel), but it's unorganized because nobody plays defense, so if there's a 2-1 game, it's most likely because of bad offense on both sides. However, I'm still gonna watch it since I'm a bit of a sucker for offensive performances (even if its a byproduct of crappy defense), and I won't be able to watch NHL hockey until New Year's Day.

Also doesn't help that the Indianapolis Star is too lazy to have wire releases of road game outcomes (they played in Fort Freaking Wayne, dammit!) or bother having the ECHL standings in the back section to show where the Fuel is in their division.



SFTC Addict said:


> This is my only outlet unless I wanna commute a couple hours. Minor league hickey 10-15 years ago was solid. Now...its the AHL and some league u have no idea why NHL teams waste time with. For AHL teams it makes sense. The FHL has potential if it was run better. Seems like the old UHL just run very poorly. Guys playing for the love of the game, physicality, rivalries and so on.




Don't get me wrong; I understand your sentiments on the matter, because you wanna watch quality hockey, not some watered down product. Unfortunately, the landscape of hockey is just the NHL, the AHL, the ECHL... and then a drop-off. The FHL can succeed, if they just were more professional.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Avsrule2002 said:


> Not to mention he got paid like an NHL player, even if it was only one game. And ask that player how he feels about that one faceoff. Highlight of his career.




Bare minimum. Development means to advance, not go up to a higher standing and then go backwards


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## Sports Enthusiast

ripham23232 said:


> Why? The player made it to the NHL. He counts as an NHL player. It isn't the ECHL's responsibility to make sure said player stays in the league for x amount of time. He played in the ECHL, then got to the big show, so the ECHL has every right to count him.




False advertising. Some guys aren't here cause they need to be. They are because they have nowhere else to be and get placed here.


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## ripham23232

SFTC Addict said:


> Bare minimum. Development means to advance, not go up to a higher standing and then go backwards




There is no higher standing than the NHL. If an ECHL player makes the NHL, then the league has done its job in regards to that player making the highest standard of professional hockey.


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## ripham23232

SFTC Addict said:


> False advertising. Some guys aren't here cause they need to be. They are because they have nowhere else to be and get placed here.




I don't really know what you mean by false advertising. Are you saying that if a player is assigned to an ECHL team by the NHL club that he doesn't count as an ECHL player? That's the exact purpose the league serves though in its agreement with the NHL. Players that don't fit on the NHL or AHL team roster get sent to the ECHL. That is the exact purpose of all of this.


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## Sports Enthusiast

ripham23232 said:


> I don't really know what you mean by false advertising. Are you saying that if a player is assigned to an ECHL team by the NHL club that he doesn't count as an ECHL player? That's the exact purpose the league serves though in its agreement with the NHL. Players that don't fit on the NHL or AHL team roster get sent to the ECHL. That is the exact purpose of all of this.




False advertising into thinking the product is really that good or relevant.


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## Sidly

I just read an article on the Danbury Trashers, I just want to say thank god my teams were never in that league. Man those games must have been entertaining but cheating was known and incredible. 3 guys on that team were making $100,000 under the table and the team was run by a 17 year old. I'm sorry Ill take my irrelevant league and enjoy that.


----------



## GarbageGoal

ripham23232 said:


> I don't really know what you mean by false advertising. Are you saying that if a player is assigned to an ECHL team by the NHL club that he doesn't count as an ECHL player? That's the exact purpose the league serves though in its agreement with the NHL. Players that don't fit on the NHL or AHL team roster get sent to the ECHL. That is the exact purpose of all of this.




Dude, don't even bother. This poster does not even like hockey at any level. It's kind of ridiculous.

Obviously, the setup is totally different than baseball. No high end prospect should ever be playing in the ECHL, only "projects" and maybe a "maturity case". That said, those projects do benefit from playing pro hockey, working their way up, and sometimes make the big time.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

GarbageGoal said:


> Dude, don't even bother. This poster does not even like hockey at any level. It's kind of ridiculous.
> 
> Obviously, the setup is totally different than baseball. No high end prospect should ever be playing in the ECHL, only "projects" and maybe a "maturity case". That said, those projects do benefit from playing pro hockey, working their way up, and sometimes make the big time.




Such a bold statement for a guy who doesn't know me at all. I just know the minor league business especially ECHL is vastly overrated in hockey. Its something to sell to the unintelligent casual fans to sucker them in for the attendance teams need. They don't care about the diehards because they have you already.


----------



## Sidly

I beg to differ. I have brought people who have never liked sports to a Reading Royals game and now they love hockey. Now they are watching every game, buying team gear, and going to games. And I am not talking about ECHL or AHL, although they do the same things too with those teams. They tell me because it's those games they've gone to and sat on the glass.


----------



## GarbageGoal

SFTC Addict said:


> Such a bold statement for a guy who doesn't know me at all.




You have 10,000 posts, mostly of the same broken record. This sucks, that sucks, everything sucks.



> I just know the minor league business especially ECHL is vastly overrated in hockey. Its something to sell to the unintelligent casual fans to sucker them in for the attendance teams need. They don't care about the diehards because they have you already.




Who is "overrating" the ECHL? You're sore because a business promotes and hypes it's product with facts like some of their players have played at the highest level in the world? What do you want them to say? "We suck, don't get your hopes up?" 

It is what it is. Double A hockey that a fair amount of people enjoy watching for any number of reasons. You're just annoyed that the fact remains there are a number of players from the ECHL who've gone on to NHL careers, so you can't dismiss it as the beer league you want it to be. I hear the same nonsense as an AHL fan from snobs who don't give a rat's ass about the sport, they just want to brag how much they dropped on tickets to go to a "big league" event and "the minors" doesn't rise to that level. So go fly a kite, then, and let us enjoy our sport.


----------



## Hoodaha

Sidly said:


> I beg to differ. I have brought people who have never liked sports to a Reading Royals game and now they love hockey. Now they are watching every game, buying team gear, and going to games. And I am not talking about ECHL or AHL, although they do the same things too with those teams. They tell me because it's those games they've gone to and sat on the glass.




It always amazes me just how much opinions of hockey change once non-fans are actually taken to a game. It's a shame the sport doesn't translate better on TV.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Sidly said:


> I beg to differ. I have brought people who have never liked sports to a Reading Royals game and now they love hockey. Now they are watching every game, buying team gear, and going to games. And I am not talking about ECHL or AHL, although they do the same things too with those teams. They tell me because it's those games they've gone to and sat on the glass.




Did you bring them when the roster was at its best in October/early November or wait until it was depleted in mid season? Hockey is better on person than on TV but a saavy fan can tell the little differences in the passing and other things. The physical play for that area was probably a sell. Even weak teams throw hits and all.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

GarbageGoal said:


> You have 10,000 posts, mostly of the same broken record. This sucks, that sucks, everything sucks.
> 
> 
> 
> Who is "overrating" the ECHL? You're sore because a business promotes and hypes it's product with facts like some of their players have played at the highest level in the world? What do you want them to say? "We suck, don't get your hopes up?"
> 
> It is what it is. Double A hockey that a fair amount of people enjoy watching for any number of reasons. You're just annoyed that the fact remains there are a number of players from the ECHL who've gone on to NHL careers, so you can't dismiss it as the beer league you want it to be. I hear the same nonsense as an AHL fan from snobs who don't give a rat's ass about the sport, they just want to brag how much they dropped on tickets to go to a "big league" event and "the minors" doesn't rise to that level. So fly a kite, then, and let us enjoy our sport.




My posts have gone way down the last year and a half due to not having a laptop anymore or just lacking an interest. I mostly posted on here, page 2 in the sports forms of other sports and sometimes in the lounge. Then I got asked to moderate and that sucked any fun I had coming on here when you see all the little dumb things on the mod board that people complain about daily. My theory was not my site not my problem. The only reason out of all the hockey parts I posted here was because where I live there's a team and I used to follow it religiously. In the last 3 years for a few different reasons I have only taken in 1 game and that was recently and the ticket was free. 

I'm not really annoyed I just find it funny that the ECHL way overvalues itself and the league they want to get so in bed with doesn't want them too much aside from the fact as a place to store remaining low on the food chain contracts with no other options to go. The product itself? Its as watchable as the CHL and UHL. It gets the job done. Its not bad but its also what it is. There's no future big name or anything here. Yes Jonathan Quick played here but it wasn't even for half a year. Goalies are not the same. They are like pitchers. Hell most NHL goalies especially for backups change a lot. You could be an NHL backup one year and an AHL starter the next. There's no big difference. Its all about hitting the jackpot in landing in the right spot.


----------



## mfrerkes

I'm taking in my first-ever ECHL game tonight. The Quad City Mallards are hosting Cincy, and I specifically chose this game because I wanted to see how a recent CHL team stacks up against a recent ECHL championship-caliber franchise. Since the absorption happened so late in the off-season, I figure this is as close to a true CHL vs. ECHL matchup as you're going to find.


----------



## Sidly

SFTC Addict said:


> Did you bring them when the roster was at its best in October/early November or wait until it was depleted in mid season? Hockey is better on person than on TV but a saavy fan can tell the little differences in the passing and other things. The physical play for that area was probably a sell. Even weak teams throw hits and all.




Actually I brought my them in January,February, and March


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

mfrerkes said:


> I'm taking in my first-ever ECHL game tonight. The Quad City Mallards are hosting Cincy, and I specifically chose this game because I wanted to see how a recent CHL team stacks up against a recent ECHL championship-caliber franchise. Since the absorption happened so late in the off-season, I figure this is as close to a true CHL vs. ECHL matchup as you're going to find.




Still say this is 2 separate leagues trying to act under one moniker. Very different for teams like Elmira or Reading or formerly Trenton vs teams like Cincinnati and Alaska who don't have the same amount of roster influx. Yes Trenton won the league many moons ago....lockout year. Reading did the same...or most of the year was and they reaped the benefit.


----------



## Off da post and in

SFTC Addict said:


> My posts have gone way down the last year and a half due to not having a laptop anymore or just lacking an interest. I mostly posted on here, page 2 in the sports forms of other sports and sometimes in the lounge. Then I got asked to moderate and that sucked any fun I had coming on here when you see all the little dumb things on the mod board that people complain about daily. My theory was not my site not my problem. The only reason out of all the hockey parts I posted here was because where I live there's a team and I used to follow it religiously. In the last 3 years for a few different reasons I have only taken in 1 game and that was recently and the ticket was free.
> 
> *I'm not really annoyed I just find it funny that the ECHL way overvalues itself and the league they want to get so in bed with doesn't want them too much* aside from the fact as a place to store remaining low on the food chain contracts with no other options to go. The product itself? Its as watchable as the CHL and UHL. It gets the job done. Its not bad but its also what it is. There's no future big name or anything here. Yes Jonathan Quick played here but it wasn't even for half a year. Goalies are not the same. They are like pitchers. Hell most NHL goalies especially for backups change a lot. You could be an NHL backup one year and an AHL starter the next. There's no big difference. Its all about hitting the jackpot in landing in the right spot.




After reading your latest post I now better understand why you're so negative toward the ECHL. It's because the ECHL sort of mirrors your own struggles.


----------



## Off da post and in

SFTC Addict said:


> Still say this is 2 separate leagues trying to act under one moniker. Very different for teams like Elmira or Reading or formerly Trenton vs *teams like Cincinnati and Alaska who don't have the same amount of roster influx*. Yes Trenton won the league many moons ago....lockout year. Reading did the same...or most of the year was and they reaped the benefit.




I can see that you haven't been checking out Cincinnati's roster influx too much lately. 4 of 8 (D) and 6 of 14 (F) have already been up/down with either San Antonio (AHL) or Milwaukee (AHL) in the first 3 weeks of the season. Add to that 2 other forwards haven't even touched game ice yet due to injuries, and another forward just arrived in a trade with Allen.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Off da post and in said:


> I can see that you haven't been checking out Cincinnati's roster influx too much lately. 4 of 8 (D) and 6 of 14 (F) have already been up/down with either San Antonio (AHL) or Milwaukee (AHL) in the first 3 weeks of the season. Add to that 2 other forwards haven't even touched game ice yet due to injuries, and another forward just arrived in a trade with Allen.




Yeah affiliates but October rosters can be crazy. You sometimes have AHL caliber guys who come down here because they lose out to a numbers game(depth chart)they may be better minor league players but that doesn't matter in terms of "development" and I believe those are their affiliates. Its not the same as losing guys to say Syracuse, Adirondack, Hershey, WBS, Albany and anyone else who can need bodies in a hurry and proximity allows them to come to you for a guy to get them in time that day.


----------



## sctvman

It depends on the market. Charleston has had minor league hockey for over 20 years and has a newspaper writer that takes the sport seriously, at almost every home game. 

There's so many markets that have struggled with media coverage which hurts the attendance and eventually causes the product to go down.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

I find the prices for here awful. $14, $16, $18, $20 and $24. Either place you sit that's an expensive night for a family in tickets alone.


----------



## easternrefugee

SFTC Addict said:


> I find the prices for here awful. $14, $16, $18, $20 and $24. Either place you sit that's an expensive night for a family in tickets alone.




Really?? Come to Cali those are REALLY cheap tickets.


----------



## ForsbergForever

SFTC Addict said:


> Still say this is 2 separate leagues trying to act under one moniker. Very different for teams like Elmira or Reading or formerly Trenton vs teams like Cincinnati and Alaska who don't have the same amount of roster influx. Yes Trenton won the league many moons ago....lockout year. Reading did the same...or most of the year was and they reaped the benefit.




Of course its two leagues under one banner... the merger happened only a few weeks before the start of the season so all the ECHL could do was stick all the Central League teams in one division and make few slight schedule changes. I'm sure re-alignment and a full interlocking schedule will come during the next off-season, making for a more united league. And of course it will be interesting to see if the ex-CHL teams pick up new affiliation agreements for next year.


----------



## Hoodaha

ForsbergForever said:


> Of course its two leagues under one banner... the merger happened only a few weeks before the start of the season so all the ECHL could do was stick all the Central League teams in one division and make few slight schedule changes. I'm sure re-alignment and a full interlocking schedule will come during the next off-season, making for a more united league. And of course it will be interesting to see if the ex-CHL teams pick up new affiliation agreements for next year.




Well, that may or may not be true. The Western teams have largely operated that way for years. Financials and geography will dictate some of that. Western teams only play a game or two (if that) against non-Western teams...


----------



## Hoodaha

easternrefugee said:


> Really?? Come to Cali those are REALLY cheap tickets.




My thoughts exactly. Did you see what San Francisco was charging last year before they folded?


----------



## speedrissr

Hoodaha said:


> Well, that may or may not be true. The Western teams have largely operated that way for years. Financials and geography will dictate some of that. Western teams only play a game or two (if that) against non-Western teams...



I imagine there will be more games with whichever Western ECHL teams remain, the former CHL teams provide a natural bridge to enable more games for Colorado and to a lesser extent Utah and Idaho. Alaska and the California teams, well, they're still on an island. Without the California teams, if the rumored AHL expansion west, it doesn't look good for Alaska.

Al?

RLR


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

easternrefugee said:


> Really?? Come to Cali those are REALLY cheap tickets.




Yeah but you're comparing some decent sized cities to a small upstate NY city...they should be cheaper I would hope.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Hoodaha said:


> My thoughts exactly. Did you see what San Francisco was charging last year before they folded?




Teams sometimes don't know what they are doing but here with attendance on the decline they RAISED every section up $2 AND got rid of the early bird special for season ticket holders. It doesn't seem like a good idea to raise prices when the last 2 years you've struggled to put butts in the seats, no? You're also talking a small area with limited resources and all that. The only blessing is the people that own the team own the arena. For that make tickets cheaper and have more concession sales versus just only ticket sales from a majority of attendees. I mean $60, $70 at the cheapest for a family of 4? So many other things a family of 4 could do for cheaper.


----------



## Off da post and in

SFTC Addict said:


> Yeah but you're comparing some decent sized cities to a small upstate NY city...they should be cheaper I would hope.




Yeah, but they're playing in the same league as the decent sized cities, which puts them in a different economic circle than just the small town economy. They have the same expenses as the decent size cities when they're on the road, and when it comes to paying player salaries.

If you want cheaper fan costs then join the SPHL or FHL. There the operational costs and salaries are much less. However, then the on ice talent is also less. That's the reality of economics in today's sport economy.


----------



## JackalsKnuckles

Off da post and in said:


> Yeah, but they're playing in the same league as the decent sized cities, which puts them in a different economic circle than just the small town economy. They have the same expenses as the decent size cities when they're on the road, and when it comes to paying player salaries.
> 
> If you want cheaper fan costs then join the SPHL or FHL. There the operational costs and salaries are much less. However, then the on ice talent is also less. That's the reality of economics in today's sport economy.




If the SPHL ended up in Elmira and tickets were $10-$12 each I think fans would come back. The style of play and blue collar nature of that league is more suited for a city like Elmira than what we have now.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Wouldn't last. The travel would be circa UHL 06-07


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Off da post and in said:


> Yeah, but they're playing in the same league as the decent sized cities, which puts them in a different economic circle than just the small town economy. They have the same expenses as the decent size cities when they're on the road, and when it comes to paying player salaries.
> 
> If you want cheaper fan costs then join the SPHL or FHL. There the operational costs and salaries are much less. However, then the on ice talent is also less. That's the reality of economics in today's sport economy.




I don't think tickets are league regulated, I think playoff games are but who really draws well for those anyway in the minors? Not many teams. They are a money loser if anything.


----------



## easternrefugee

SFTC Addict said:


> I don't think tickets are league regulated, I think playoff games are but who really draws well for those anyway in the minors? Not many teams. They are a money loser if anything.




Bako draws the same in PO that they do in regular season


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## Sports Enthusiast

Must be a unique market or a bored one but its not as if Bakersfield is a poor small market or anything.


----------



## Sal

Elmira should seriously consider the NAHL. Here in Johnstown, many fans now wish that the ECHL would have left years earlier, knowing now how much more entertaining the style of play is in the NAHL compared to what the ECHL was its last few years here. The NAHL is the closest thing to minor pro for a junior hockey league because the players are almost all 18 to 20 years old, plus it has a more blue collar, physical style of play. Many people in Johnstown at first said they would not attend a "high school hockey league". All it took was getting the people to one game and they were hooked. We have an outstanding ownership group here in Johnstown that treats the fans better than they have ever been treated before. The ownership also spends money on advertising as well as promotions, something that was never done during the ECHL years. Since the schedule consists of only 60 games, every game is important. Most games have the intensity and physicality of a playoff game. All in all, it is nice to no longer have to worry every year whether or not our team will return next season. Elmira would be the furthest team east for the NAHL, but don't be surprised if the league continues to expand eastward.


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## Sports Enthusiast

I just have no use for a league like that. It would be USHL, OHL or bust for me. We already have a college team. Its D3. The NAHL would equivelate that at higher ticket prices.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

SFTC Addict said:


> I just have no use for a league like that. It would be USHL, OHL or bust for me. We already have a college team. Its D3. The NAHL would equivelate that at higher ticket prices.




Fortunately for the hockey world, you aren't the single, solitary fan in Elmira, New York... or anywhere else, for that matter.


----------



## Off da post and in

SFTC Addict said:


> I just have no use for a league like that. It would be USHL, OHL or bust for me. We already have a college team. Its D3. The NAHL would equivelate that at higher ticket prices.




Your outlook of the ECHL mirrors that of Eyore, the gloomy donkey friend of Winnie the Pooh, constantly negative post after post.

BTW, NCAA D3 hockey is clearly better than the NAHL brand. It doesn't even merit discussion.


----------



## Sal

Who cares if the talent level of D3 is higher than the NAHL. The talent level for the ECHL is higher than D3 and the ECHL is a very boring and bland type of hockey to watch. All I know is, in the NAHL I am now watching intense, fast paced, hard hitting hockey against teams that hate each other, much like the early ECHL years and I am thoroughly entertained. Isn't that all that should matter?


----------



## Clinton Comets EHL

Sal said:


> Elmira should seriously consider the NAHL. Here in Johnstown, many fans now wish that the ECHL would have left years earlier, knowing now how much more entertaining the style of play is in the NAHL compared to what the ECHL was its last few years here. The NAHL is the closest thing to minor pro for a junior hockey league because the players are almost all 18 to 20 years old, plus it has a more blue collar, physical style of play. Many people in Johnstown at first said they would not attend a "high school hockey league". All it took was getting the people to one game and they were hooked. We have an outstanding ownership group here in Johnstown that treats the fans better than they have ever been treated before. The ownership also spends money on advertising as well as promotions, something that was never done during the ECHL years. Since the schedule consists of only 60 games, every game is important. Most games have the intensity and physicality of a playoff game. All in all, it is nice to no longer have to worry every year whether or not our team will return next season. Elmira would be the furthest team east for the NAHL, but don't be surprised if the league continues to expand eastward.




Thank you for your input on this.

How is the team drawing? Very happy for you folks.

No money back in Chiefs during Smith era.



Sal said:


> Who cares if the talent level of D3 is higher than the NAHL. The talent level for the ECHL is higher than D3 and the ECHL is a very boring and bland type of hockey to watch. All I know is, in the NAHL I am now watching intense, fast paced, hard hitting hockey against teams that hate each other, much like the early ECHL years and I am thoroughly entertained. Isn't that all that should matter?




yes. well said. it is about the entertainment and intensity.

The ECHL provides little or none of both.



Off da post and in said:


> Your outlook of the ECHL mirrors that of Eyore, the gloomy donkey friend of Winnie the Pooh, constantly negative post after post.
> 
> BTW, NCAA D3 hockey is clearly better than the NAHL brand. It doesn't even merit discussion.





we have the highest drawing D3 team in the nation here in Utica.

Utica College.

2700 season tickets in a 3815 capacity rink. While it isn't my cup of tea, many people find it wildly entertaining and intense. They regularly sell out. The Comets coming to the AHL hasn't hurt them a bit, in fact they draw more.



Sal said:


> Who cares if the talent level of D3 is higher than the NAHL. The talent level for the ECHL is higher than D3 and the ECHL is a very boring and bland type of hockey to watch. All I know is, in the NAHL I am now watching intense, fast paced, hard hitting hockey against teams that hate each other, much like the early ECHL years and I am thoroughly entertained. Isn't that all that should matter?




There hasn't been an entertaining game in the ECHL in 10 years.


----------



## Jackets Woodchuck

Am I the only person here who likes watching hockey in general and doesn't really care about how "entertaining" the game is because I take hockey more seriously than mere "entertainment"?


----------



## Clinton Comets EHL

Jackets Woodchuck said:


> Am I the only person here who likes watching hockey in general and doesn't really care about how "entertaining" the game is because I take hockey more seriously than mere "entertainment"?




Well, I don't like to be bored with uninspired, boring hockey. If you like that stuff and can watch it, more power to you.

I like intensity, haven't seen it in over a decade.


----------



## JackalsKnuckles

Sal said:


> Elmira should seriously consider the NAHL. Here in Johnstown, many fans now wish that the ECHL would have left years earlier, knowing now how much more entertaining the style of play is in the NAHL compared to what the ECHL was its last few years here. The NAHL is the closest thing to minor pro for a junior hockey league because the players are almost all 18 to 20 years old, plus it has a more blue collar, physical style of play. Many people in Johnstown at first said they would not attend a "high school hockey league". All it took was getting the people to one game and they were hooked. We have an outstanding ownership group here in Johnstown that treats the fans better than they have ever been treated before. The ownership also spends money on advertising as well as promotions, something that was never done during the ECHL years. Since the schedule consists of only 60 games, every game is important. Most games have the intensity and physicality of a playoff game. All in all, it is nice to no longer have to worry every year whether or not our team will return next season. Elmira would be the furthest team east for the NAHL, but don't be surprised if the league continues to expand eastward.




I'd take the NAHL here in Elmira. I just drove 4 and 1/2 hours yesterday and saw the Keystone Ice Miners game (mainly to check out the arena) and agree the brand of hockey is entertaining. The game was excellent, with intensity and enough skill to hold fans interest. Guys seem to want to be there unlike many of the ECHL players these days.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

6768clintoncomets575 said:


> Well, I don't like to be bored with uninspired, boring hockey. If you like that stuff and can watch it, more power to you.
> 
> I like intensity, haven't seen it in over a decade.




This. There's just not much hitting or anything and guys wanna pull cheap **** like Saturday. Someone wanted a piece of Kevin Harvey early in the game and he turtles but late in the game he wanted to go against a guy who didn't look like a fighter and the refs didn't let it happen lol. Where's the good hits either? A few weeks ago I was at a game and Brayden Irwin was charging towards this guy along the boards who had the pick he could have hit him instead he brought his purse and basically tapped him. He's a skilled guy who will overachieve because he can dominate this level without having to try but has to give more at the next level. I think its an issue this league has. You have veterans who are too good for this league and can dominate but go up to the AHL and its harder and they struggle so they bounce back and forth year to year between E and A.

The hitting is weak. Most of it now is cheap crap after the whistle or while a guy isn't looking.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

CrazyEddie20 said:


> Fortunately for the hockey world, you aren't the single, solitary fan in Elmira, New York... or anywhere else, for that matter.




Guess we could say the same for you Crazy Edward. Fact is if you've looked they have not much room to bargain with their current situation. I have only been to one game since May 2012(I don't necessarily agree with how the mess down there played out and I feel like the hockey has taken a back seat to other matters.)


----------



## Hoodaha

Jackets Woodchuck said:


> Am I the only person here who likes watching hockey in general and doesn't really care about how "entertaining" the game is because I take hockey more seriously than mere "entertainment"?




I'm with you on this. Hockey is good because it's hockey. I loved the 90's trap style hockey, I loved the 80's wide open scoring fest hockey, I loved the WCHL, I love the ECHL. Hockey is good because it's a great product at nearly any level (I may draw the line at a old timers beer league game or peewees). That said, NAHL is a terrible product. I would go to NAHL games if I had no other options (I've been there and seen a bundle of them because of it), because I like hockey...but to act as if NAHL is a more entertaining product than the ECHL is laughable. I get that the ECHL isn't the best league in the world, but for the price, it's great.


----------



## Hoodaha

Sal said:


> Who cares if the talent level of D3 is higher than the NAHL. The talent level for the ECHL is higher than D3 and the ECHL is a very boring and bland type of hockey to watch. All I know is, in the NAHL I am now watching intense, fast paced, hard hitting hockey against teams that hate each other, much like the early ECHL years and I am thoroughly entertained. Isn't that all that should matter?




The NAHL is entertaining if you like watching D-men fall on their backsides trying to skate backwards, or if you like watching guys miss checks and pass 5 feet behind the player that they are passing to. Sure, there are a few kids that have some skill and may make NCAA D1, and there are even fewer who might get drafted (I got to see Stolarz play, for example), but that's the exception, not the rule. For many of these teams, after the first line, the skill level is brutal.


----------



## Sal

Johnstown has a history of hockey dating back to 1950. We are a hockey town with very knowledgeable fans . If the current NAHL was anything like Hoodaha is describing, the Johnstown Tomahawks would not be averaging well over 2,000 fans per game for the third consecutive season.


----------



## Hoodaha

Sal said:


> Johnstown has a history of hockey dating back to 1950. We are a hockey town with very knowledgeable fans . If the current NAHL was anything like Hoodaha is describing, the Johnstown Tomahawks would not be averaging well over 2,000 fans per game for the third consecutive season.




I saw NAHL several years ago, so maybe the skill level has improved, but at least back then, the talent pool was not deep at all. It's hard to compare kids to men, so I give them some leeway because those that go on will get better, but it really wasn't a very good product. I've heard that USHL is, but haven't seen to verify. By the way, 2,000 fans is considered a failure in most leagues, so I wouldn't get too excited about it. Guess it helps when you don't have to pay the players. Maybe it has more to do with the fact that there's been hockey there since the 50's, so there are hockey fans there who want to see hockey.


----------



## Off da post and in

Sal said:


> Johnstown has a history of hockey dating back to 1950. We are a hockey town with very knowledgeable fans . If the current NAHL was anything like Hoodaha is describing, the Johnstown Tomahawks would not be averaging well over 2,000 fans per game for the third consecutive season.




Our beloved village, a few miles outside a large metropolis, has a history of eating at a singular restaurant dating back to to 1830. Our hamlet has very knowledgeable hungry diners. If the old historic burger joint was anything like the restaurant guidebook describes, the diner would not be crowded every meal time hour every day. 

However, if our village had some other eateries in the immediate vicinity such as a steakhouse, an Italian Ristorante, or a Chinese Buffet that greasy burger joint would be less congested.

Whether hockey or food, if the local patrons have no alternatiive they're a 'captive audience', and build a misguided loyalty for the lone available product. Therefore, your endorsement of the NAHL is not convincing for those of us that have a range of levels from mites to the NHL.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Off da post and in said:


> Our beloved village, a few miles outside a large metropolis, has a history of eating at a singular restaurant dating back to to 1830. Our hamlet has very knowledgeable hungry diners. If the old historic burger joint was anything like the restaurant guidebook describes, the diner would not be crowded every meal time hour every day.
> 
> However, if our village had some other eateries in the immediate vicinity such as a steakhouse, an Italian Ristorante, or a Chinese Buffet that greasy burger joint would be less congested.
> 
> Whether hockey or food, if the local patrons have no alternatiive they're a 'captive audience', and build a misguided loyalty for the lone available product. Therefore, your endorsement of the NAHL is not convincing for those of us that have a range of levels from mites to the NHL.




That's basically some of the towns in this league. An Elmira or Wheeling places like those and so on.


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## Off da post and in

Off da post and in said:


> Our beloved village, a few miles outside a large metropolis, has a history of eating at a singular restaurant dating back to to 1830. Our hamlet has very knowledgeable hungry diners. If the old historic burger joint was anything like the restaurant guidebook describes, the diner would not be crowded every meal time hour every day.
> 
> However, if our village had some other eateries in the immediate vicinity such as a steakhouse, an Italian Ristorante, or a Chinese Buffet that greasy burger joint would be less congested.
> 
> Whether hockey or food, if the local patrons have no alternatiive they're a 'captive audience', and build a misguided loyalty for the lone available product. Therefore, your endorsement of the NAHL is not convincing for those of us that have a range of levels from mites to the NHL.




STFC, you're a good example of the above villager when you make comments like, "the NAHL is equal to NCAA D3 hockey", or "Junior hockey is more talented than the AHL".


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## Sal

Within around 60 miles of Johnstown, we have the NHL, two Division I programs, ACHA and Midget Major hockey. Without a doubt, the skill level of the individual players is much higher in the ECHL than the NAHL. What I am referring to is the entertainment value. We had the ECHL. The early years were great. The last few years was like watching paint dry. It became nothing but watching potential AHL 4th liners putting their time in; with minimum effort, waiting for the AHL call. The NAHL players give 100% all the time and they have enough skill to play a very intense and entertaining style of play. Having the young players getting very involved with the community also creates a bond with the fans. If you would poll the fans in Johnstown, I think the vote would be overwhelming in favor of the NAHL over the ECHL just for the entertainment. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Right now we prefer the hustle and effort of the NAHL over the half-assed, non-caring attitude from the ECHL players that we last witnessed here. When we want to see highly skilled hockey, we can just watch the nearby Penguins.


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## Clinton Comets EHL

Sal said:


> Within around 60 miles of Johnstown, we have the NHL, two Division I programs, ACHA and Midget Major hockey. Without a doubt, the skill level of the individual players is much higher in the ECHL than the NAHL. What I am referring to is the entertainment value. We had the ECHL. The early years were great. The last few years was like watching paint dry. It became nothing but watching potential AHL 4th liners putting their time in; with minimum effort, waiting for the AHL call. The NAHL players give 100% all the time and they have enough skill to play a very intense and entertaining style of play. Having the young players getting very involved with the community also creates a bond with the fans. If you would poll the fans in Johnstown, I think the vote would be overwhelming in favor of the NAHL over the ECHL just for the entertainment. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Right now we prefer the hustle and effort of the NAHL over the half-assed, non-caring attitude from the ECHL players that we last witnessed here. When we want to see highly skilled hockey, we can just watch the nearby Penguins.




Exactly Sal, well said. It is about the entertainment. Also the effort put forth.

Recall back to the 1973-77 NAHL, offshoot from the EHL. I believe that the NAHL failed because it touted itself as the top development league for the WHA. The first 2 years were great, mostly because the remnants of the EHL. The last 2, not so good. It seemed that nearly every player here thought they deserved to be in Indianapolis or Toronto. Sure, there were exceptions but it was plain to see that most didn't want to be here. Hence, unless the Dusters or Jets with the Carlson's came to town, the games were NOT ENTERTAINING. "DEVELOPMENTAL" HOCKEY !!

Got off track but it goes back to what you said. I want to be entertained. Been watching hockey for 50 years and I am still not inspired by boring hockey or guys that give little or no effort.


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## Off da post and in

6768clintoncomets575 said:


> Exactly Sal, well said. It is about the entertainment. Also the effort put forth.
> 
> Recall back to the 1973-77 NAHL, offshoot from the EHL. I believe that the NAHL failed because it touted itself as the top development league for the WHA. The first 2 years were great, mostly because the remnants of the EHL. The last 2, not so good. It seemed that nearly every player here thought they deserved to be in Indianapolis or Toronto. Sure, there were exceptions but it was plain to see that most didn't want to be here. Hence, unless the Dusters or Jets with the Carlson's came to town, the games were NOT ENTERTAINING. "DEVELOPMENTAL" HOCKEY !!
> 
> Got off track but it goes back to what you said. I want to be entertained. Been watching hockey for 50 years and I am still not inspired by boring hockey or guys that give little or no effort.






Sal said:


> Within around 60 miles of Johnstown, we have the NHL, two Division I programs, ACHA and Midget Major hockey. Without a doubt, the skill level of the individual players is much higher in the ECHL than the NAHL. What I am referring to is the entertainment value. We had the ECHL. The early years were great. The last few years was like watching paint dry. It became nothing but watching potential AHL 4th liners putting their time in; with minimum effort, waiting for the AHL call. The NAHL players give 100% all the time and they have enough skill to play a very intense and entertaining style of play. Having the young players getting very involved with the community also creates a bond with the fans. If you would poll the fans in Johnstown, I think the vote would be overwhelming in favor of the NAHL over the ECHL just for the entertainment. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Right now we prefer the hustle and effort of the NAHL over the half-assed, non-caring attitude from the ECHL players that we last witnessed here. When we want to see highly skilled hockey, we can just watch the nearby Penguins.




When talking of what entertains you it's not for me to debate. However, *STFC's comments* spoke to the level of skill, talent, and play which is a different point. One can't defend the comment that today's NAHL is equivalent to NCAA D3, nor that Juniors are more talented than the AHL.

BTW, STFC was referring to the current NAHL (Juniors) not the EHL offshoot 1973-77 version of the minor pro NAHL.


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## JackalsKnuckles

Sal said:


> Within around 60 miles of Johnstown, we have the NHL, two Division I programs, ACHA and Midget Major hockey. Without a doubt, the skill level of the individual players is much higher in the ECHL than the NAHL. What I am referring to is the entertainment value. *We had the ECHL. The early years were great. The last few years was like watching paint dry. It became nothing but watching potential AHL 4th liners putting their time in; with minimum effort, waiting for the AHL call. The NAHL players give 100% all the time and they have enough skill to play a very intense and entertaining style of play.* Having the young players getting very involved with the community also creates a bond with the fans. If you would poll the fans in Johnstown, I think the vote would be overwhelming in favor of the NAHL over the ECHL just for the entertainment. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. * Right now we prefer the hustle and effort of the NAHL over the half-assed, non-caring attitude from the ECHL players that we last witnessed here.* When we want to see highly skilled hockey, we can just watch the nearby Penguins.




Good points and all points I agree with. I live in an ECHL city (well 25 miles away) and had season tickets for 8 years, and have the same opinion of the play that you do. So far this year I've seen games on road trips in the QMJHL, LNAH, QJHL, Quebec Junior B, FHL, NAHL, OHL, EHL and NCAA D3. Not all were great, but the compete level and intensity of the games in most of these leagues is good enough to offer entertainment, and in most cases more fun to watch than the ECHL. I'm not missing the ECHL, and am not sure if I will be back to my local arena this year or not. Sure the ECHL can "develop" players, it is just not very exciting when compared to other leagues out there.


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## Clinton Comets EHL

Off da post and in said:


> When talking of what entertains you it's not for me to debate. However, *STFC's comments* spoke to the level of skill, talent, and play which is a different point. One can't defend the comment that today's NAHL is equivalent to NCAA D3, nor that Juniors are more talented than the AHL.
> 
> *BTW, STFC was referring to the current NAHL (Juniors) not the EHL offshoot 1973-77 version of the minor pro NAHL.*





I know that, was just using the developmental theme. Another argument against the 30/30/30 and what we watch in the ECHL now.

As far as the Junior NAHL vs D#, I don't see enough of either to comment.


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## CrazyEddie20

Sal said:


> Johnstown has a history of hockey dating back to 1950. We are a hockey town with very knowledgeable fans . If the current NAHL was anything like Hoodaha is describing, the Johnstown Tomahawks would not be averaging well over 2,000 fans per game for the third consecutive season.




Get your facts straight: Johnstown has a history of barely supporting hockey teams back to 1950. It's a town with about 1,000 die hards and 1,000 casual fans and 2,000 that can be convinced to show up once or twice a year. The average attendance has been between 2,000 and 3,000 since the late 1950s. The Jets were always in danger of folding (until they did), the Red Wings and Wings drew right around 2,300/game, and so did the Chiefs.

The Tomahawks attendance of 2,300 is right about where the Chiefs were, and they only dropped (barely) below that mark the last two ECHL seasons. The only reason that the NAHL is getting by in Johnstown is because they don't have to pay the players. The same people are showing up. No one has "come back," and no new fans seem to have been created.


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## MrWilson*

You're describing a perfect hockey town. Sounds like 2-3000 fans have consistently attended since 1950. Find me another NAHL team that can do that every game or has that history. There aren't many.


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## Sal

Get your facts straight:* Johnstown has a history of barely supporting hockey teams back to 1950. It's a town with about 1,000 die hards and 1,000 casual fans and 2,000 that can be convinced to show up once or twice a year. The average attendance has been between 2,000 and 3,000 since the late 1950s. The Jets were always in danger of folding (until they did), the Red Wings and Wings drew right around 2,300/game, and so did the Chiefs.

The Tomahawks attendance of 2,300 is right about where the Chiefs were, and they only dropped (barely) below that mark the last two ECHL seasons. The only reason that the NAHL is getting by in Johnstown is because they don't have to pay the players. The same people are showing up. No one has "come back," and no new fans seem to have been created.*

What fact did I not get straight? I never claimed that hockey has always been a financial success in this town. But what other town the size of Johnstown can claim to have had a hockey team almost every year since 1950? Unless you live here, how would you know who attends the games? I live here. I have been supporting all of our hockey teams for over forty of those years. The fan base for the NAHL team IS much younger than the ECHL years; so yes, many new fans ARE being created. And yes, many of us long time hockey fans from back in the Jets days are attending too. In addition to Johnstown, just about every other team they ever played in minor pro were also always in danger of folding. Just about every team struggled financially one time or another. 

Why does it seem to bother some people that Johnstown now enthusiastically supports junior hockey over minor pro? As if Johnstown is the only team that doesn't pay their Junior players. Those are the NCAA rules. There are many larger cities in both the NAHL and USHL; and guess what, they don't pay their players either!


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## PCSPounder

Off da post and in said:


> Our beloved village, a few miles outside a large metropolis, has a history of eating at a singular restaurant dating back to to 1830. Our hamlet has very knowledgeable hungry diners. If the old historic burger joint was anything like the restaurant guidebook describes, the diner would not be crowded every meal time hour every day.
> 
> However, if our village had some other eateries in the immediate vicinity such as a steakhouse, an Italian Ristorante, or a Chinese Buffet that greasy burger joint would be less congested.
> 
> Whether hockey or food, if the local patrons have no alternatiive they're a 'captive audience', and build a misguided loyalty for the lone available product. Therefore, your endorsement of the NAHL is not convincing for those of us that have a range of levels from mites to the NHL.




At present, certain cups of coffee that you might be buying from a national chain are more expensive than a gallon of gas. But how long will that last?


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## CrazyEddie20

Sal said:


> Get your facts straight:* Johnstown has a history of barely supporting hockey teams back to 1950. It's a town with about 1,000 die hards and 1,000 casual fans and 2,000 that can be convinced to show up once or twice a year. The average attendance has been between 2,000 and 3,000 since the late 1950s. The Jets were always in danger of folding (until they did), the Red Wings and Wings drew right around 2,300/game, and so did the Chiefs.
> 
> The Tomahawks attendance of 2,300 is right about where the Chiefs were, and they only dropped (barely) below that mark the last two ECHL seasons. The only reason that the NAHL is getting by in Johnstown is because they don't have to pay the players. The same people are showing up. No one has "come back," and no new fans seem to have been created.*
> 
> What fact did I not get straight? I never claimed that hockey has always been a financial success in this town. But what other town the size of Johnstown can claim to have had a hockey team almost every year since 1950? Unless you live here, how would you know who attends the games? I live here. I have been supporting all of our hockey teams for over forty of those years. The fan base for the NAHL team IS much younger than the ECHL years; so yes, many new fans ARE being created. And yes, many of us long time hockey fans from back in the Jets days are attending too. In addition to Johnstown, just about every other team they ever played in minor pro were also always in danger of folding. Just about every team struggled financially one time or another.
> 
> Why does it seem to bother some people that Johnstown now enthusiastically supports junior hockey over minor pro? As if Johnstown is the only team that doesn't pay their Junior players. Those are the NCAA rules. There are many larger cities in both the NAHL and USHL; and guess what, they don't pay their players either!




Let me explain this to you: an average of 2,300 people now attending an NAHL game is the same as an average of 2,300 people attending an ECHL game 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and so on. Johnstown supports the NAHL no more enthusiastically than they've ever supported hockey going back to when the War Memorial was built in 1950. Do I live in Johnstown? No, but I did, and I visit quite often. The same people that have always gone continue to go. Nothing has changed but the league, and to a small extent, the financial model. But with a dwindling, aging population that's closer to poverty than ever, they're going to have to create a lot more new fans from outside Johnstown to keep the team viable - and that's just not going to happen.


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## Sports Enthusiast

MrWilson said:


> You're describing a perfect hockey town. Sounds like 2-3000 fans have consistently attended since 1950. Find me another NAHL team that can do that every game or has that history. There aren't many.




Not the perfect hockey town, atleast in the pro ranks. In the pris you aren't making money with that attendance. Makes me wonder how teams like Elmira, Wheeling and Johnstown survived so long.


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## Affiliate Watcher

There's a lot of complaining and comparing going on on the board and I'm not sure why. If you are lucky enough to have a team in your town, then boast about it, don't hack on the level of play. If you're on here you probably already have an idea of what you're getting for your money.
I live in Brampton, unofficially considered part of the Greater-Toronto-Area. This is probably one of the most hockey mad parts of North America and at the same time a wasteland for anything that isn't NHL.
We've lost our OHL team because of lack of support. Our neighbours in Mississauga have been put on notice that if attendance doesn't get better in 3 years they will lose their OHL team as well.
Basically it seems that unless it's the Leafs, no one cares about what else is out there unless their kid is in it.
We got our CHL Brampton Beast last year, shortly after the Battalion left. Even I was skeptical and didn't even attend one game (I was still bitter about losing an OHL team). This year the merger happened, and because the ECHL is a more legitimate league I hopped on board and purchased seasons ticket. 
I don't care how we compare to the AHL or the NHL, I don't care that we don't even have an affiliate anymore. When I go to the games I get to watch hockey, LIVE and IN PERSON! Nothing on tv will ever compare to being in the seats. I've been told that attendance for this year is up over last year and that gives me hope. I like cheering for, and supporting, the team from my city. 

I guess all I'm trying to post is that you need to appreciate what you've got, because if you don't and (even worse) if you belittle what you do have you'll lose hockey in your town. Please don't talk down about your local franchise to others, minor-pro leagues don't need that. We need to get more fans out to the games not convince others not to "waste" their money. I've taken my Dad and my nephews out to several games and the smile on the face of a 5 year old, and the time I get to spend with my Dad are worth every penny I spend on a season ticket. And comparatively, my out of pocket expense for a Beast game wouldn't even buy a beer at a Leafs game.


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## Hoodaha

Affiliate Watcher said:


> There's a lot of complaining and comparing going on on the board and I'm not sure why. If you are lucky enough to have a team in your town, then boast about it, don't hack on the level of play. If you're on here you probably already have an idea of what you're getting for your money.
> I live in Brampton, unofficially considered part of the Greater-Toronto-Area. This is probably one of the most hockey mad parts of North America and at the same time a wasteland for anything that isn't NHL.
> We've lost our OHL team because of lack of support. Our neighbours in Mississauga have been put on notice that if attendance doesn't get better in 3 years they will lose their OHL team as well.
> Basically it seems that unless it's the Leafs, no one cares about what else is out there unless their kid is in it.
> We got our CHL Brampton Beast last year, shortly after the Battalion left. Even I was skeptical and didn't even attend one game (I was still bitter about losing an OHL team). This year the merger happened, and because the ECHL is a more legitimate league I hopped on board and purchased seasons ticket.
> I don't care how we compare to the AHL or the NHL, I don't care that we don't even have an affiliate anymore. When I go to the games I get to watch hockey, LIVE and IN PERSON! Nothing on tv will ever compare to being in the seats. I've been told that attendance for this year is up over last year and that gives me hope. I like cheering for, and supporting, the team from my city.
> 
> I guess all I'm trying to post is that you need to appreciate what you've got, because if you don't and (even worse) if you belittle what you do have you'll lose hockey in your town. Please don't talk down about your local franchise to others, minor-pro leagues don't need that. We need to get more fans out to the games not convince others not to "waste" their money. I've taken my Dad and my nephews out to several games and the smile on the face of a 5 year old, and the time I get to spend with my Dad are worth every penny I spend on a season ticket. And comparatively, my out of pocket expense for a Beast game wouldn't even buy a beer at a Leafs game.




Yep. mediocre live hockey is 10x better than high level hockey on TV. As a fan, I am happy having a team, no matter what. 

By the way, anyone saying that ECHL hockey isn't exciting didn't see the Bakersfield Condors teddy bear toss game this weekend. With 7 minutes left, down 5-3, the home team scores two to tie it and then scores in OT to win on a beautiful individual effort in front of 8,500 fans. Seeing 7,300 teddy bears thrown after the first goal wasn't half bad either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5BwmNTODb4&feature=youtu.be


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