# ECHL to 30 Teams?



## Patlikesbreakdowns

Is the nhl really looking to go 3 and 3 meaning NHL AHL ECHL Affiliate.
the rumored team in QC and the rumor vegas purchase only make's the ring cloudy.
looking at the east it''s a bit confusing to place a eastern team unless the saber's switch nxt year.
Note the team's benefiting or atop the conference are really benefiting from the player's sent down.
Nolfork's independent moved really didnt work well.


----------



## JMCx4

So where's the "RUMORED RELOCATION." in your post above?


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Patlikesbreakdowns said:


> Is the nhl really looking to go 3 and 3 meaning NHL AHL ECHL Affiliate.
> the rumored team in QC and the rumor vegas purchase only make's the ring cloudy.
> looking at the east it''s a bit confusing to place a eastern team unless the sabre's switch nxt year.
> Note the team's benefiting or atop the conference are really benefiting from the player's sent down.
> Nolfork's independent moved really didnt work well.




Not really sure what you're asking here due to some of the bad grammar. I'll take my best shot at it trying to give you some feedback.

Yes, the NHL really is looking to eventually get to a 1-1-1 affiliation with the ECHL. Toronto was the first organization to take a true 3-tier approach to prospect development. Several others are heavily linked to following up soon.

The rumored ECHL Québec team was supposed to be in Trois-Rivières, but the political situation in the city forced it to at least be delayed for the upcoming season, but still possible for 2021-22. Vegas purchased an AHL team, so I'm not sure what that has to do with ECHL rumored relocation. They haven't been linked to extending their development to the ECHL level. Their current affiliate is the model ECHL independent franchise Fort Wayne Komets, and only 2 players from within the Golden Knights organization play for the team. 

The ECHL isn't expanding for this upcoming year, so looking anywhere would be confusing considering they have no expansion targets, other than Trois-Rivières. So, yes, placing any team, let alone Eastern team, will be extremely confusing.

Yes, both the ECHL and NHL teams benefit from really using their ECHL affiliates. Newfoundland is one of the top teams in the league, and the Leafs are developing more prospects than normal.


----------



## JMCx4

@Barclay Donaldson: We can always count on you to squeeze blood from a turnip.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

JMCx4 said:


> @Barclay Donaldson: We can always count on you to squeeze blood from a turnip.




I saw a thread asking a question in all caps and thought it might be our favorite friend. That's enough to get me out and going.


----------



## Patlikesbreakdowns

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Not really sure what you're asking here due to some of the bad grammar. I'll take my best shot at it trying to give you some feedback.
> 
> Yes, the NHL really is looking to eventually get to a 1-1-1 affiliation with the ECHL. Toronto was the first organization to take a true 3-tier approach to prospect development. Several others are heavily linked to following up soon.
> 
> The rumored ECHL Québec team was supposed to be in Trois-Rivières, but the political situation in the city forced it to at least be delayed for the upcoming season, but still possible for 2021-22. Vegas purchased an AHL team, so I'm not sure what that has to do with ECHL rumored relocation. They haven't been linked to extending their development to the ECHL level. Their current affiliate is the model ECHL independent franchise Fort Wayne Komets, and only 2 players from within the Golden Knights organization play for the team.
> 
> The ECHL isn't expanding for this upcoming year, so looking anywhere would be confusing considering they have no expansion targets, other than Trois-Rivières. Sochem yes, placing any team, let alone Eastern team, will be extremely confusing.
> 
> Yes, both the ECHL and NHL teams benefit from really using their ECHL affiliates. Newfoundland is one of the top teams in the league, and the Leafs are developing more prospects than normal.






That's basically every answer i was looking for.
I cringe everytime i hear the word independent .
The fan base in adirondack is calling out the devil's for messing up.
the devil's just keep shuffling the decks game in and game out.
which has lead to instability in building team chemistry.
the thing that toronto has done better in implying the development is leaving there player's down for more than 3 game's at a time.
adirondack keep's finding good goalie's but realistically get's hemed by the above situation.
Hope this was better grammar wise.


.


----------



## Patlikesbreakdowns

JMCx4 said:


> So where's the "RUMORED RELOCATION." in your post above?



I heard somewhere that vegas might be looking int0 echl aswell.


----------



## JMCx4

Patlikesbreakdowns said:


> I heard somewhere that vegas might be looking int0 echl aswell.



Don't believe everything you read on HFBoards. In fact, you're welcome to ignore me, too.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Patlikesbreakdowns said:


> That's basically every answer i was looking for.
> I cringe everytime i hear the word independent .
> The fan base in adirondack is calling out the devil's for messing up.
> the devil's just keep shuffling the decks game in and game out.
> which has lead to instability in building team chemistry.
> the thing that toronto has done better in implying the development is leaving there player's down for more than 3 game's at a time.
> adirondack keep's finding good goalie's but realistically get's hemed by the above situation.
> Hope this was better grammar wise.
> 
> 
> .




All good on the grammar, English isn't my first language so I do should not be talking of grammar. 

Independent teams have their rights. They bought the teams, they can't really be forced to sell it. The operations of Ft. Wayne Komets and Chicago Wolves are proof of that enough. 



Patlikesbreakdowns said:


> I heard somewhere that vegas might be looking int0 echl aswell.




They were looking at putting an ECHL team in Reno, NV several years ago. The political situation in Reno makes it impossible. There has been no news about it for about two years and the few things that do come out are saying that hockey in Reno is a non-starter. Here are several news articles discussing it. I believe the figure being tossed around was $10 million just to get the Reno-Sparks Convention Center ready for minor league hockey. That is too steep of a price for AA hockey.

Discussions stall, but Reno still hopeful for ECHL hockey team
Is Reno still a future landing spot for professional hockey?
Pro hockey coming to Reno? Don't expect it anytime soon
Professional Reno Hockey Team Looks Unlikely - Arena Digest


----------



## PCSPounder

I can say there are muddled unfocused rumors about Northwest expansion... could be the E, could be someone like NAHL, could be an SPHL league. That indicates a muddled unfocused effort looking for a whale investor to set this thing in any given direction.

And that's my muddled unfocused effort for the day. It's an HFBoards tradition, after all.


----------



## Martin Veillette

In the recent years, I have heard about

1) Trois-Rivieres, Qc
2) Long Island, NY
3) Richmond, VA
4) Billings, MT
5) Reno, NV

You can add others like Peoria, Manchester, Houston, Oklahoma City and now San Antonio to that list


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Martin Veillette said:


> In the recent years, I have heard about
> 
> 1) Trois-Rivieres, Qc
> 2) Long Island, NY
> 3) Richmond, VA
> 4) Billings, MT
> 5) Reno, NV
> 
> You can add others like Peoria, Manchester, Houston, Oklahoma City and now San Antonio to that list




But it sort of matters if they are realistic or not.

Trois-Rivières is obviously realistic. They were sort of close to getting a deal done, but it is delayed at least for the upcoming season. The mayor is not big on the league and is being a hard negotiator. The city will host just UQTR Patriotes, and then renegotiate with Dean McDonald sometime before the ECHL application window shuts.
Long Island was never going to happen. The man wanted to build an arena on land he didn't own and was in the process being sold to someone else. Once the transaction was completed, I think it was to a mall, the guy shut his mouth. It was talk that lasted for a few hours.
Richmond is somewhat realistic in that there is and has been active talk since the Navy Hill project was put forward and the words that came with it. But, it still needs to pass through a city council that voted against it once already, mostly because the projected cost is $1 billion.
Billings, like Long Island, was never going to happen. It's on an island for travel, would need to be near capacity with paying butts in seats each night just to break even. And that wasn't including the millions of dollars that would be needed just to be able to make ice, let alone be able to host minor pro hockey.
For Reno, you can copy and paste Billings except add a permanent political presence against making costs.
For the others, Peoria joined the SPHL because of the lower budget requirements. The last time I ever heard about them and the ECHL was when they were actually in the ECHL. Peoria isn't happening. Manchester hasn't had any bites since they folded, there haven't even been attempts to negotiate a lease at the SNHU Arena. Manchester isn't happening. Houston has never been associated with the ECHL by any source on the internet, let alone a reliable source. Houston isn't happening. Oklahoma City has never been associated by any reliable source on the internet, and not with the ECHL since some bloggers were desperately looking for a replacement for the OKC Barons. I think I mentioned this to you on another thread, a group couldn't even find enough dates between the two arenas. OKC isn't happening. San Antonio is way too soon to tell.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Barclay Donaldson said:


> But it sort of matters if they are realistic or not.
> 
> Trois-Rivières is obviously realistic. They were sort of close to getting a deal done, but it is delayed at least for the upcoming season. The mayor is not big on the league and is being a hard negotiator. The city will host just UQTR Patriotes, and then renegotiate with Dean McDonald sometime before the ECHL application window shuts.
> Long Island was never going to happen. The man wanted to build an arena on land he didn't own and was in the process being sold to someone else. Once the transaction was completed, I think it was to a mall, the guy shut his mouth. It was talk that lasted for a few hours.
> Richmond is somewhat realistic in that there is and has been active talk since the Navy Hill project was put forward and the words that came with it. But, it still needs to pass through a city council that voted against it once already, mostly because the projected cost is $1 billion.
> Billings, like Long Island, was never going to happen. It's on an island for travel, would need to be near capacity with paying butts in seats each night just to break even. And that wasn't including the millions of dollars that would be needed just to be able to make ice, let alone be able to host minor pro hockey.
> For Reno, you can copy and paste Billings except add a permanent political presence against making costs.
> For the others, Peoria joined the SPHL because of the lower budget requirements. The last time I ever heard about them and the ECHL was when they were actually in the ECHL. Peoria isn't happening. Manchester hasn't had any bites since they folded, there haven't even been attempts to negotiate a lease at the SNHU Arena. Manchester isn't happening. Houston has never been associated with the ECHL by any source on the internet, let alone a reliable source. Houston isn't happening. Oklahoma City has never been associated by any reliable source on the internet, and not with the ECHL since some bloggers were desperately looking for a replacement for the OKC Barons. I think I mentioned this to you on another thread, a group couldn't even find enough dates between the two arenas. OKC isn't happening. San Antonio is way too soon to tell.



update on Richmond:

it appears a replacement for the Coliseum is DEAD, City Council rejected the proposal by a 5 to 4 vote according to insider sources at Arena Digest; Monday night the proposal failed and developers have ended all discussions which would have created a 17, 5K seating arena as part of the Navy Hill proposal described in the above post


----------



## 210

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Manchester hasn't had any bites since they folded, there haven't even been attempts to negotiate a lease at the SNHU Arena.




This is not true.


----------



## JMCx4

210 said:


> This is not true.



But he got the rest of it right? That'd be a helluva lot better'n many of us can aspire to.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

210 said:


> This is not true.




Are you just going to say it's not true, or are you going to back it up? The Q looked at the arena but didn't do it because of travel and scheduling issues. They never even found an interested ownership group, let alone looking at a lease. La LHJMQ veut un club en Montérégie - La Presse+. 

The last news that came out from any reliable source was in May of last year. There has been nothing since. Please provide something supporting your assertion.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

JMCx4 said:


> But he got the rest of it right? That'd be a helluva lot better'n many of us can aspire to.




It would have been nice if he backed up what he was saying rather than just say "no no, that's not right." Reminds me of a different friend we have on here with much worse typing and grammar skills.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Are you just going to say it's not true, or are you going to back it up? The Q looked at the arena but didn't do it because of travel and scheduling issues. They never even found an interested ownership group, let alone looking at a lease. La LHJMQ veut un club en Montérégie - La Presse+.
> 
> The last news that came out from any reliable source was in May of last year. There has been nothing since. Please provide something supporting your assertion.



If someone does want to start a echl expansion team in Manchester a slow well thought out approach is probably the best way to go. @wildcat48 did say in the monarchs ceasing operation’s thread that there where a few bidders for the monarchs that got rejected by Brian Cheek.


----------



## 210

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Are you just going to say it's not true, or are you going to back it up? The Q looked at the arena but didn't do it because of travel and scheduling issues. They never even found an interested ownership group, let alone looking at a lease. La LHJMQ veut un club en Montérégie - La Presse+.
> 
> The last news that came out from any reliable source was in May of last year. There has been nothing since. Please provide something supporting your assertion.




I know it's untrue because I've spoken with the potential owner of a Manchester ECHL franchise on more than a handful of occasions, including just a couple days after the ECHL's all-star break. 

And on top of that, he wasn't the only person that started the ECHL's ownership process with an intent to put a team in Manchester, he's just the only one that made it through the league's vetting process and is actively pursuing it.


----------



## 210

Centrum Hockey said:


> If someone does want to start a echl expansion team in Manchester a slow well thought out approach is probably the best way to go. @wildcat48 did say in the monarchs ceasing operation’s thread that there where a few bidders for the monarchs that got rejected by Brian Cheek.




No one asked wanted anything to do with the Monarchs...that organization owed so much money and had such a poor reputation with the fans there that it had to fold. There was no saving that organization.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

210 said:


> I know it's untrue because I've spoken with the potential owner of a Manchester ECHL franchise on more than a handful of occasions, including just a couple days after the ECHL's all-star break.
> 
> And on top of that, he wasn't the only person that started the ECHL's ownership process with an intent to put a team in Manchester, he's just the only one that made it through the league's vetting process and is actively pursuing it.




Considering there hasn't been a single reliable news source that has reported this, it should be taken with a gain of salt. Just like every other "I've personally spoken" with that has ever been on HFBoards.


----------



## 210

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Considering there hasn't been a single reliable news source that has reported this, it should be taken with a gain of salt. Just like every other "I've personally spoken" with that has ever been on HFBoards.




While it's only been part-time as I have a full-time paying job, I have been writing about hockey for 24 years and I have been credentialed to cover hockey in Worcester for many of those years. My work has been seen on dozens of sites (including, years ago, this one). I'm not someone that reads newspapers and blogs and makes conclusions solely based on what others report, I actually speak to people connected to those situations so I have a greater understanding of what's really going on.

When it comes to AHL and ECHL hockey, I'll put my track record of being right against anyone on this forum.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

210 said:


> While it's only been part-time as I have a full-time paying job, I have been writing about hockey for 24 years and I have been credentialed to cover hockey in Worcester for many of those years. My work has been seen on dozens of sites (including, years ago, this one). I'm not someone that reads newspapers and blogs and makes conclusions solely based on what others report, I actually speak to people connected to those situations so I have a greater understanding of what's really going on.
> 
> When it comes to AHL and ECHL hockey, I'll put my track record of being right against anyone on this forum.




You must be _extremely_ credentialed to have information that hasn't be found anywhere else from the dozens of entities that have a stake in reporting news on hockey in Manchester.


----------



## 210

Barclay Donaldson said:


> You must be _extremely_ credentialed to have information that hasn't be found anywhere else from the dozens of entities that have a stake in reporting news on hockey in Manchester.




I'm hardly the only person who knows the current hockey situation in Manchester. And other than the Union Leader, what other entities would there be that have a stake in covering hockey in Manchester?


----------



## Centrum Hockey

The local coverage on the financial troubles of the echl monarchs was almost non existent from the time LA sold the team to the time PPI sports group announced they where selling.The union leader did maybe 3 articles on them that where related to the business of the team. It would not be surprising if they had no idea if there was any talk's with ownership groups.


----------



## wildcat48

Barclay Donaldson said:


> You must be _extremely_ credentialed to have information that hasn't be found anywhere else from the dozens of entities that have a stake in reporting news on hockey in Manchester.




The reason none of those entities are writing about future of hockey in Manchester is because they do not care. 1.) It doesn’t generate clickable advertising revenue 2.) Lack of staff to cover such items 3.) see step 1. It doesn’t generate revenue for the paper so they are not hard pressed to cover the story.
That’s why the Press Herald in Portland doesn’t cover the Mariners, Red Claws or Sea Dogs on a regular or consistent basis. They push high school first, Red Sox or Patriots second and Bruins and Celtics third.
It’s all about the Benjamins.


----------



## wildcat48

The only person who would have any knowledge about what is going on in Manchester would be Alex Hall with the Union Leader and I'm not sure if he's still with them.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

wildcat48 said:


> The only person who would have any knowledge about what is going on in Manchester would be Alex Hall with the Union Leader and I'm not sure if he's still with them.



Last Article was 4 days ago Alex Hall | New Hampshire Union Leader Journalist | Muck Rack


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

wildcat48 said:


> The reason none of those entities are writing about future of hockey in Manchester is because they do not care. 1.) It doesn’t generate clickable advertising revenue 2.) Lack of staff to cover such items 3.) see step 1. It doesn’t generate revenue for the paper so they are not hard pressed to cover the story.
> That’s why the Press Herald in Portland doesn’t cover the Mariners, Red Claws or Sea Dogs on a regular or consistent basis. They push high school first, Red Sox or Patriots second and Bruins and Celtics third.
> It’s all about the Benjamins.




I can find within 5 pages of a google search more than 20 different papers writing about the Monarchs ceasing operations. Day to day coverage is one thing, but a team ceasing operations or possibly getting back in the mix is entirely different. Look at the English coverage alone that Trois-Rivières got.


----------



## wildcat48

Barclay Donaldson said:


> I can find within 5 pages of a google search more than 20 different papers writing about the Monarchs ceasing operations. Day to day coverage is one thing, but a team ceasing operations or possibly getting back in the mix is entirely different. Look at the English coverage alone that Trois-Rivières got.




And, it guaranteed that those papers used same source material.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

wildcat48 said:


> And, it guaranteed that those papers used same source material.




What the heck does the same source material have to do with it? It has absolutely no bearing on what was being discussed. What was being discussed was that there wasn't a single papers that has discussed an ownership group interested in returning the ECHL to Manchester. There were at least 20 that discussed the Monarchs ceasing operations, it would stand to reason that there should be at least 4-5 that would discuss an interested ownership group returning the ECHL to Manchester. I didn't look overtly hard, but there hasn't been any news from any of the 20 or so papers that discussed. Having the same source material is absolutely irrelevant to what was being discussed.


----------



## royals119

Barclay Donaldson said:


> What the heck does the same source material have to do with it? It has absolutely no bearing on what was being discussed. What was being discussed was that there wasn't a single papers that has discussed an ownership group interested in returning the ECHL to Manchester. There were at least 20 that discussed the Monarchs ceasing operations, it would stand to reason that there should be at least 4-5 that would discuss an interested ownership group returning the ECHL to Manchester. I didn't look overtly hard, but there hasn't been any news from any of the 20 or so papers that discussed. Having the same source material is absolutely irrelevant to what was being discussed.



I think what was intended was that those 20 papers didn't do separate investigations into the Monarch's situation. They saw the first article that was printed and they either reprinted it, or called the people who were quoted in the first article and re-interviewed them. There is a difference between having 20 media outlets actively interested in Manchester hockey and having one actively paying attention and 19 others repeating what the first one said. Someone has to break the story first to get the others interested, and there is likely only one or two who would do that. 

I don't know about Manchester at all, but lots of other cities have had their newspapers cut staff, or were sold and merged, or even closed altogether. Reading's newspaper is no longer headquartered or printed in Reading. It was bought by a media conglomerate and they centralized operations between several cities, with operations of all the papers at one office/publishing facility. They are slowly losing the local focus and publishing more national and regional news. Less "boots on the ground" locally to pick up on these type of stories. If they hear about a rumored change in ownership they would do a story, but they might not hear about it as early in the process any more. Once they publish the story, they would probably also put it in the sports section of the newspapers they own in the surrounding counties, and maybe also in Wheeling, Worcester, Portland, and other ECHL cities. Hence 20 stories show up, but it was only one reporter who was actually responsible for all of it.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Barclay Donaldson said:


> I can find within 5 pages of a google search more than 20 different papers writing about the Monarchs ceasing operations. Day to day coverage is one thing, but a team ceasing operations or possibly getting back in the mix is entirely different. Look at the English coverage alone that Trois-Rivières got.



true but these " Interested Manchester Owners" may not want to be public


----------



## KingKrug47

If Manchester came back, I'd love it if Lowell got a team back and bring back the glory days of the Lowell-Manchester-Portland-Wocester rivalry of the AHL. Not sure how much the stance of Umass Lowell has changed about sharing an arena though. Marty no longer being the UML chancellor and if it's not a NJ team may stand a slightly better than 1% chance.


----------



## Patlikesbreakdowns

I kind of dig with the Massachusetts are talkin about here. The sad part is I don't think the times Union center will ice a team. And the Long island project is either put on hold or just completely dead cuz I haven't seen any articles about it.


----------



## Patlikesbreakdowns

Never mind the plans are due in April.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Patlikesbreakdowns said:


> Never mind the plans are due in April.




For the Long Island ECHL team? That plan has been dead for two years. The land was sold to the mall less than a month after those articles came out. Any talk of Lowell to the ECHL is hogwash, that is college hockey territory now with UMass-Lowell taking up the market share equivalent of an ECHL team and then some. Plus, UMass-Lowell and Tsongas Center kicked out the AHL Devils, it's irrational to think that they'll change their minds and let a pro team come in.


----------



## Big Z Man 1990

The Caps should place an ECHL team in Baltimore. It has to be ECHL because the AHL will never allow the Hershey Bears to be moved.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Big Z Man 1990 said:


> The Caps should place an ECHL team in Baltimore. It has to be ECHL because the AHL will never allow the Hershey Bears to be moved.



NHL teams don't invest in the ECHL unless they want the arena for an AHL Team. If a local owner wanted to start an echl team in Baltimore They can apply for expansion royal farms arena is pretty dated though.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Big Z Man 1990 said:


> The Caps should place an ECHL team in Baltimore. It has to be ECHL because the AHL will never allow the Hershey Bears to be moved.




The AHL doesn't care about relocations. The AHL is completely subservient to the NHL. But, they can't force a team to sell. Hershey is owned by the gigantic chocolate making conglomerate who own the arena and the team, and both are incredibly profitable. That's why Hershey won't be relocated.


----------



## 210

Barclay Donaldson said:


> The AHL doesn't care about relocations. The AHL is completely subservient to the NHL. But, they can't force a team to sell. Hershey is owned by the gigantic chocolate making conglomerate who own the arena and the team, and both are incredibly profitable. That's why Hershey won't be relocated.




I don't think they own the arena, I think they just run it. Although it's essentially the same thing when the team is the primary tenant.


----------



## wildcat48

Actually, there was discussion on whether the Capitals would purchase the Bears and relocate them to Maryland back in 2016. Hershey Company was fighting a hostile bid takeover by Mondelez International (Kraft Foods) and was in discussions with various groups about selling its stake in Hershey Entertainment & Resorts Company which would have included Hersheypark, Hersheypark Stadium and Arena plus the Bears. Obviously, the Capitals were interesting in buying the Bears. If I remember correctly they were looking at an arena in Silver Springs or a new arena in Baltimore. Fortunately, Hershey rejected $23B deal with Mondelez & the Capitals signed a new affiliation agreement but in the AHL I’ve learned to never say never because everything has a price.


----------



## mk80

210 said:


> I don't think they own the arena, I think they just run it. Although it's essentially the same thing when the team is the primary tenant.



You're right Giant Center is owned by Derry Township, and managed by HERCO (Hershey Entertainment). They do own the Hersheypark Arena though which is used for Bears practices and by the Lebanon Valley College team in addition to youth hockey.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Big Z Man 1990 said:


> The Caps should place an ECHL team in Baltimore. It has to be ECHL because the AHL will never allow the Hershey Bears to be moved.



Baltimore is like Richmond....it's been done, remember Norfolk until 1999 was a Capitals affiliate


----------



## hurricanesfan123

This mentioned hockey possibly returning but doesnt mentioned any ownership though
Paul Feely's City Hall: Hockey could be back after a break


----------



## 210

hurricanesfan123 said:


> This mentioned hockey possibly returning but doesnt mentioned any ownership though
> Paul Feely's City Hall: Hockey could be back after a break




Huh, you don't say...


----------



## hurricanesfan123

210 said:


> Huh, you don't say...



well I guess you may be right after all about manchester icing another team soon.


----------



## sabremike

I wish the Trenton Titans could come back but baring something like in Bingo where the local government is essentially subsidizing the team the odds of it happening (particularly now) are in the immortal words of the late great Gorilla Monsoon "Highly unlikely". Market is basically dead and buried which is a shame because that building is perfect for ECHL.


----------



## Big Z Man 1990

Here's a good alignment for a 32-team ECHL:

*East*
Atlantic
Adirondack
Brampton
Greenville
Norfolk
Reading
South Carolina

Northeast
Burlington (VT)*
Maine
Manchester*
Newfoundland
Worcester

Southeast
Atlanta
Augusta (GA)*
Florida
Jacksonville
Orlando

*West*
Central
Cincinnati
Fort Wayne
Indy
Kalamazoo
Toledo
Wheeling

Pacific
Abbotsford*
Fresno*
Idaho
Reno*
Utah

Plains
Allen
Kansas City
Rapid City
Tulsa
Wichita


----------



## Centrum Hockey

hurricanesfan123 said:


> This mentioned hockey possibly returning but doesnt mentioned any ownership though
> Paul Feely's City Hall: Hockey could be back after a break



It Sounds like whoever she is listening to is well aware of true issues the monarchs faced at the end.Unlike The narrative being pushed by some when the echl monarchs folded that Manchester was an AHL market and the echl was beneath them.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Big Z Man 1990 said:


> Here's a good alignment for a 32-team ECHL:
> 
> *East*
> Atlantic
> Adirondack
> Brampton
> Greenville
> Norfolk
> Reading
> South Carolina
> 
> Northeast
> Burlington (VT)*
> Maine
> Manchester*
> Newfoundland
> Worcester
> 
> Southeast
> Atlanta
> Augusta (GA)*
> Florida
> Jacksonville
> Orlando
> 
> *West*
> Central
> Cincinnati
> Fort Wayne
> Indy
> Kalamazoo
> Toledo
> Wheeling
> 
> Pacific
> Abbotsford*
> Fresno*
> Idaho
> Reno*
> Utah
> 
> Plains
> Allen
> Kansas City
> Rapid City
> Tulsa
> Wichita



Burlington, VT nope, unless you want to deal with UVM, Z...... Vermont is like Manchester was pre-2000 before ASM/AEG ran the franchise;

I also don't see 32 teams..... Abbotsford is a no in any league, Reno's ship has sailed........ Fresno and Augusta, Georgia were done already and collapsed in season.......doubtful the ECHL has any interest in the expansion fee to even broach a potential return....


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Centrum Hockey said:


> It Sounds like whoever she is listening to is well aware of true issues the monarchs faced at the end.Unlike The narrative being pushed by some when the echl monarchs folded that Manchester was an AHL market and the echl was beneath them.



2nd last attendance in echl and it will be interesting to see if they would be put back in the league


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Big Z Man 1990 said:


> Burlington (VT)*




It's a tiny market with less than 50,000 people and college hockey at UVM is king. It's the same reason pro hockey isn't and will never be tried in Orono, ME and everywhere in Minnesota. The QMJHL doesn't even try for Burlington because they know it won't work. The ECHL does not fit this market in any way.



Big Z Man 1990 said:


> Augusta (GA)*




No functioning ice plant at James Brown Arena. That's a seven figure investment just to make the facility capable of making ice. James Brown Arena also barely met SPHL arena standards because of poor upkeep, they would certainly fail ECHL standards. That's another seven figure investment just to make the facility meet minimum standards. The market hasn't had any interest in hosting hockey in seven years since their SPHL team folded (because of the ice plant failing). They couldn't support their ECHL team before that to the point where the team folded mid-season. In order to just get the facility ready it would require around $10,000,000. Hockey hasn't returned for that reason and certainly won't in the future.



Big Z Man 1990 said:


> Abbotsford*




Would have to be the Canucks affiliate since it is in the middle of Canucksland. The Flames showed that very well. If so, then it's a maybe.



Big Z Man 1990 said:


> Fresno*




https://www.fresnobee.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/marek-warszawski/article200316374.html.
Doesn't work with the current setup. It is $1,500 per day to keep the ice up and going. It was enough that Bill Foley had the opportunity and passed on putting a Vegas AHL team there. Zero chance any tries an ECHL team there.



Big Z Man 1990 said:


> Reno*




reno pro hockey - Google Search
Pro hockey coming to Reno? Don't expect it anytime soon

Not possible for a laundry list of reasons.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Don't follow the ECHL as much as some of you so I could be wrong
Reno and manchester are in pretty similar situations with trying to get a team
Abbotsford I could see coming to the echl but travel times could hurt them


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

hurricanesfan123 said:


> Don't follow the ECHL as much as some of you so I could be wrong
> Reno and manchester are in pretty similar situations with trying to get a team
> Abbotsford I could see coming to the echl but travel times could hurt them




Two entirely different situations with Reno and Manchester. The three usual measures for hockey feasibility to an ownership group are 1.) Arena, 2.) City and 3.) Market. Reno has purported market interest, but not the facility or city aspects. The arena needs $5 million worth of repairs just to be ready to host a team and much political opposition to a hockey project. Manchester is the exact opposite. They have a ready arena in a ready city, but they are in a market with doubtful interest in a ECHL team given how they were burned by the AHL Monarchs and then the ECHL Monarchs.

Abbotsford would need to be bringing in 5,000-6,000 per night in order to even have a chance given the travel. When the closest travel partner by far is a 10 hour ride by bus to Idaho, the team would be up against the wall before a game is even played. The ECHL Victoria Salmon Kings were eventually supplanted by the WHL Victoria Royals because of the travel costs associated with the league, and that was back when there were still ECHL teams on the West Coast.


----------



## 210

hurricanesfan123 said:


> 2nd last attendance in echl and it will be interesting to see if they would be put back in the league




They would be. And you can bet everything you own they won't be called "Monarchs". That name is poison up there in the business community.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

210 said:


> They would be. And you can bet everything you own they won't be called "Monarchs". That name is poison up there in the business community.



Trois-Rivières and Manchester I could see in ECHL 2021-2022 season but unlike Trois-Rivières, Manchester would have to find an owner and an interested NHL affiliate. Trois-Rivières looks like Dean Macdonald and the Canadians got a set plan ready for 2021-22 season. This next year we might be seeing some ECHL expansion. Plus, Manchester has yet to announce any real plan


----------



## royals119

Barclay Donaldson said:


> No functioning ice plant at James Brown Arena. That's a seven figure investment just to make the facility capable of making ice.



Not so true any more. Wheeling had an ice plant failure last fall and put in a new system in just a few weeks for about $300,000. New Ice System ‘Saved The Season’ for Wheeling Nailers



> James Brown Arena also barely met SPHL arena standards because of poor upkeep, they would certainly fail ECHL standards. That's another seven figure investment just to make the facility meet minimum standards. The market hasn't had any interest in hosting hockey in seven years since their SPHL team folded (because of the ice plant failing). They couldn't support their ECHL team before that to the point where the team folded mid-season. In order to just get the facility ready it would require around $10,000,000. Hockey hasn't returned for that reason and certainly won't in the future.



The ECHL team folded because the economy tanked, particularly in the automotive sector, and the team owners were car dealers.  A more realistic number to get the building up and running is probably $1.5 million, with additional investments over time. 
I'm not saying it is going to happen, but if there were some city leaders who wanted it, and they got the building fixed, and a new owner with solid financial backing was around, it isn't impossible. Not likely, certainly not in the next year or two considering what is happening, but not impossible.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

royals119 said:


> Not so true any more. Wheeling had an ice plant failure last fall and put in a new system in just a few weeks for about $300,000. New Ice System ‘Saved The Season’ for Wheeling Nailers




Wheeling did it with a modular icing system on a quick budget and quick time frame. It's only supposed to last for a few years, but the company that installed said it "could last up to twenty" which is not likely considering it is a temporary product they're trying to advertise as permanent. The cost for installing a full ice machine was in the $1 mil - $2 mil range. New Ice System ‘Saved The Season’ for Wheeling Nailers



royals119 said:


> The ECHL team folded because the economy tanked, particularly in the automotive sector, and the team owners were car dealers. A more realistic number to get the building up and running is probably $1.5 million, with additional investments over time.
> I'm not saying it is going to happen, but if there were some city leaders who wanted it, and they got the building fixed, and a new owner with solid financial backing was around, it isn't impossible. Not likely, certainly not in the next year or two considering what is happening, but not impossible.




ECHL Augusta Lynx had six seasons of attendance at or less than 3,000. I'm not saying it wasn't the economy tanking that killed the team, but they weren't going to last much longer regardless of what happened economically. They folded mid-season, that is not a sign of one singular event rather accumulation.


----------



## JMCx4

210 said:


> ... you can bet everything you own they won't be called "Monarchs". ...



Don't you mean: "you can bet everything you *USED TO* own *BEFORE FEB. 20TH*"?


----------



## Cyclones Rock

I'm of the mind that 32-32-32 set up will never happen. There are too many ECHL teams right now which aren't on solid footing, a lack of decent potential markets for new teams, and the NHL doesn't seem inclined to financially support the ECHL. The NHL still benefits by the ECHLs existence and if that were threatened perhaps they'd be willing to support the ECHL directly-maybe so far as ownership (partial or full) of ECHL teams. They could subsidize the teams without owning them as another option.

What I can see is a 32-32-16 set up where each ECHL team is double affiliated. If there were no ECHL, the NHL would feel the pinch (where do you send bad ELCs and excess AHL contracts?) so perhaps there could be a much more formal affiliation in this case.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

hurricanesfan123 said:


> 2nd last attendance in echl and it will be interesting to see if they would be put back in the league



I don't believe any market is a lost cause. It just takes good management and ownership to turn a market around. Look at the difference between Springfield MA under Charlie and Sara Pompea and current T-birds group.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Centrum Hockey said:


> I don't believe any market is a lost cause. It just takes good management and ownership to turn a market around. Look at the difference between Springfield MA under Charlie and Sara Pompea and current T-birds group.



I would like to think but still having a former team with 2,000 in a 10,000 arena is pretty eye-catching to people in the future who want to own a team


----------



## 210

hurricanesfan123 said:


> I would like to think but still having a former team with 2,000 in a 10,000 arena is pretty eye-catching to people in the future who want to own a team




Attendance was a symptom of the problem in Manchester, not the actual problem. A strong, committed local owner shouldn't have any issues getting that market back in track.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

210 said:


> Attendance was a symptom of the problem in Manchester, not the actual problem. A strong, committed local owner shouldn't have any issues getting that market back in track.



how did manchester do so poorly transitioning and Adirondack do it well


----------



## 210

hurricanesfan123 said:


> how did manchester do so poorly transitioning and Adirondack do it well




The problems started long before the switch to the ECHL, but the Monarchs pretending it was just "business as usual" with the league switch certainly didn't help matters.

The Kings run Monarchs alienated a huge part of their fan base with the attitude of "of course you're going to buy tickets, what else is there to do here" mentality. By the end of the AHL Monarchs even the die-hards had had enough and were beginning to bad-mouth the organization. The ECHL franchise was all but on life support when PPI bought it, and they did absolutely nothing to try to save it.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

210 said:


> The problems started long before the switch to the ECHL, but the Monarchs pretending it was just "business as usual" with the league switch certainly didn't help matters.
> 
> The Kings run Monarchs alienated a huge part of their fan base with the attitude of "of course you're going to buy tickets, what else is there to do here" mentality. By the end of the AHL Monarchs even the die-hards had had enough and were beginning to bad-mouth the organization. The ECHL franchise was all but on life support when PPI bought it, and they did absolutely nothing to try to save it.



What a shame no wonder AEG got out of there


----------



## Centrum Hockey

hurricanesfan123 said:


> Trois-Rivières and Manchester I could see in ECHL 2021-2022 season but unlike Trois-Rivières, Manchester would have to find an owner and an interested NHL affiliate. Trois-Rivières looks like Dean Macdonald and the Canadians got a set plan ready for 2021-22 season. This next year we might be seeing some ECHL expansion. Plus, Manchester has yet to announce any real plan



Boston/Providence would likely be Manchester's affiliate/local sponsor but the team would obliviously be locally owned and operated.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Centrum Hockey said:


> Boston/Providence would likely be Manchester's affiliate/local sponsor but the team would obliviously be locally owned and operated.



I have seen people say maybe the devils ahl or senators ahl could relocate to manchester 
also it would be interesting if Albany got echl although it would be unlikely


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

hurricanesfan123 said:


> I have seen people say maybe the devils ahl or senators ahl could relocate to manchester
> also it would be interesting if Albany got echl although it would be unlikely




Ottawa relocated their AHL team from Binghamton, where they had been happy with decent prospect call-up times since 2002, in order to put them in Belleville. They were aware it was a small market that wouldn't draw huge crowds. But it was the perfect geographic location for the prospects. Zero chance they relocate to Manchester.

New Jersey took their place in Binghamton and that lease has another two years left. While the market hasn't been extremely happy with the team, the Devils certainly have. The city also realizes that they got lucky in the AHL shuffle and managed to grab a team when they lost theirs, they won't let them leave so easily and the Devils won't relocate their team nearly 3 hours further away in a market where there is heavy doubts about their ability to support a team. Zero chance they relocate to Manchester.

Times Union Center in Albany has publicly been happy without hockey and haven't courted any hockey team since they lost the Devils. They host enough shows, conventions, concerts, basketball and other sporting events to not need hockey. It's likely a loser if they add it because not only will they likely not bring in a lot of money, but it takes away 30some dates from other events that make the arena money.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Ottawa relocated their AHL team from Binghamton, where they had been happy with decent prospect call-up times since 2002, in order to put them in Belleville. They were aware it was a small market that wouldn't draw huge crowds. But it was the perfect geographic location for the prospects. Zero chance they relocate to Manchester.
> 
> New Jersey took their place in Binghamton and that lease has another two years left. While the market hasn't been extremely happy with the team, the Devils certainly have. The city also realizes that they got lucky in the AHL shuffle and managed to grab a team when they lost theirs, they won't let them leave so easily and the Devils won't relocate their team nearly 3 hours further away in a market where there is heavy doubts about their ability to support a team. Zero chance they relocate to Manchester.
> 
> Times Union Center in Albany has publicly been happy without hockey and haven't courted any hockey team since they lost the Devils. They host enough shows, conventions, concerts, basketball and other sporting events to not need hockey. It's likely a loser if they add it because not only will they likely not bring in a lot of money, but it takes away 30some dates from other events that make the arena money.



Major work has to be done to the XL Center eventually. Albany probably would only make a bid if the wolf pack ever need a place to play for a couple seasons even then there will probably be more appealing options.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

You're more likely to see a 20 team ECHL before you see a 30 team ECHL given the economy right now.


----------



## JMCx4

Why do I feel dirty whenever I give a Like to @CrazyEddie20 ?


----------



## hurricanesfan123

CrazyEddie20 said:


> You're more likely to see a 20 team ECHL before you see a 30 team ECHL given the economy right now.



yea I have to agree it certainly isn't helping some teams and doesn't help future expansion markets


----------



## sabremike

hurricanesfan123 said:


> yea I have to agree it certainly isn't helping some teams and doesn't help future expansion markets



I think the long-term thing that is going to need to happen is for both the AHL and ECHL to be split up into different regional leagues like Minor League Baseball to where you have teams all in a general geographical area to minimize travel costs (this is also what happened with arena football, but in that case I don't think that sport is going to survive because there is virtually no interest in it anywhere).


----------



## Centrum Hockey

sabremike said:


> I think the long-term thing that is going to need to happen is for both the AHL and ECHL to be split up into different regional leagues like Minor League Baseball to where you have teams all in a general geographical area to minimize travel costs (this is also what happened with arena football, but in that case I don't think that sport is going to survive because there is virtually no interest in it anywhere).



The AHL pacific division is essentially the equivalent of MILB's PCL.They still play some other Western conference teams but the vast majority of the schedule is within the division.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

Centrum Hockey said:


> The AHL pacific division is essentially the equivalent of MILB's PCL.They still play some other Western conference teams but the vast majority of the schedule is within the division.




I mean, sure - except that the PCL includes teams in the Midwest since the American Association folded 20 years ago, so try again.

And even when the PCL was somewhat similar to the Western Division of the AHL, there were eastern Major League organizations that had their Class AAA affiliate in the PCL. Most notably, the Pittsburgh Pirates were with the Hawaii Islanders from 1983-86.


----------



## JDogindy

CrazyEddie20 said:


> I mean, sure - except that the PCL includes teams in the Midwest since the American Association folded 20 years ago, so try again.
> 
> And even when the PCL was somewhat similar to the Western Division of the AHL, there were eastern Major League organizations that had their Class AAA affiliate in the PCL. Most notably, the Pittsburgh Pirates were with the Hawaii Islanders from 1983-86.




That's cause somebody had to affiliate with the Islanders. 

There were teams in minor league baseball up until the late 1990s that were either independent (that was, they didn't bother with affiliation and did things their way), or were the dreaded "co-op" teams; teams that were effectively the "garbage bin" of the league that you were forced to send players to if you didn't have your own affiliate, and due to the struggles of balancing multiple team developmental projects, you were guaranteed a losing squad.

In hockey, independence is one of two things; you're either doing it because you want to win... or you're the Norfolk Admirals and nobody wants you. So, the analogy kind of falls apart in a way.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

JDogindy said:


> That's cause somebody had to affiliate with the Islanders.
> 
> There were teams in minor league baseball up until the late 1990s that were either independent (that was, they didn't bother with affiliation and did things their way), or were the dreaded "co-op" teams; teams that were effectively the "garbage bin" of the league that you were forced to send players to if you didn't have your own affiliate, and due to the struggles of balancing multiple team developmental projects, you were guaranteed a losing squad.
> 
> In hockey, independence is one of two things; you're either doing it because you want to win... or you're the Norfolk Admirals and nobody wants you. So, the analogy kind of falls apart in a way.




Not quite - there hasn't been an independent team in a league playing under the National Agreement since the 1970s. That last independent team was the Portland Mavericks, subject of the documentary titled "The Battered Bastards of Baseball." That team played in the Northwest League - a short-season 'A' league that is still operating, at least for now, pending the reorganization of MiLB that may or may not happen next season. I can't recall the last co-op team, but I'd be willing to wager it wasn't above the Class 'A' level and wasn't within the last 30 years.

There have been independent leagues since then, most notably the Northern League and the Atlantic League.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

CrazyEddie20 said:


> Not quite - there hasn't been an independent team in a league playing under the National Agreement since the 1970s. That last independent team was the Portland Mavericks, subject of the documentary titled "The Battered Bastards of Baseball." That team played in the Northwest League - a short-season 'A' league that is still operating, at least for now, pending the reorganization of MiLB that may or may not happen next season. I can't recall the last co-op team, but I'd be willing to wager it wasn't above the Class 'A' level and wasn't within the last 30 years.
> 
> There have been independent leagues since then, most notably the Northern League and the Atlantic League.




After digging into my library of Baseball America guides, Bakersfield of the Class-A California League was a co-op in 1996, so I was only off by four years.


----------



## sabremike

CrazyEddie20 said:


> After digging into my library of Baseball America guides, Bakersfield of the Class-A California League was a co-op in 1996, so I was only off by four years.



In their first season or two in the early/mid 90's the Hudson Valley Renegades of the NYP League were a split affiliate.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

sabremike said:


> In their first season or two in the early/mid 90's the Hudson Valley Renegades of the NYP League were a split affiliate.




Nope. Texas for their first two years, Tampa Bay ever since.


----------



## sabremike

CrazyEddie20 said:


> Nope. Texas for their first two years, Tampa Bay ever since.



OK, could've sworn there was a dual affiliation but guess not. Did remember that Texas was the affiliate the first few seasons because Nolan Ryan's kid was on one of those teams. As an aside a few friends of mine from the Trashers ended up working for the Renegades as well.


----------



## Liebo

I remember the days when MiLB had several co-ops and independent teams. I worked with one of the very last such teams, in fact. The new agreement signed in the mid-90's took steps to eliminate co-ops and independents (in MiLB, that is) by mandating all MLB organizations have just one affiliate at the Triple-A, Double-A, High-A, and Low-A levels, and in turn guaranteeing an affiliation for every MiLB team outside of the Appy League. That guarantee is sacrosanct in minor league ball, and it's what MLB is effectively attacking right now. But that's for another discussion.

I find it interesting that affiliated minor league baseball and hockey are so different in the way their independence manifests itself. In baseball, most every minor league team is an independent business entity; outside of complex ball and the Appy League, the number of MLB-owned minor league franchises is in the single-digits. Every other franchise is independently owned and operated, making its own business decisions. Their MLB affiliates, on the other hand, control everything between the white lines, including player and staff selection and movement. If an MLB organization doesn't like the operating environment, business decisions, facility, or business staff at the minor league level, they will wait until the conclusion of their player development contract (or PDC), which all run for two or four years, and find another affiliate. Even the process to change affiliations is concrete: MiLB/MLB teams file secretly during a narrow window after the season if they would like to change affiliations. Only teams that have so notified, and their respective affiliates, receive a list of organizations that are available to affiliate with. The dance takes place during a two-week (if I remember correctly) window in September, after which all affiliations have been determined or assigned. Happy organizations can choose to extend their agreements (only in two or four-year increments) at any time, but changes can only take place during that window after the season is over, and only every two years.

Hockey is more grey, with teams choosing to have varying levels of independence. More than half of the AHL is owned by its NHL affiliate, but you have franchises like Chicago that so value their independence that it has soured past relationships. AHL teams still have to fill some of their rosters outside of the players their parent club sends them, and the ECHL is even more responsible for doing so. Affiliations can change at the drop of a hat; look at what happened with the Blues in the past few months. Their AHL affiliate was purchased, so they snagged a new affiliate from another organization, all in the middle of the season. By my count, six NHL teams don't have an ECHL affiliate, and Norfolk can't keep a parent.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that baseball's affiliation tree is far more structured than hockey's. Some of minor league hockey seems to relish its independence, but independence can foster uncertainty. The low minors in baseball are far more stable than in hockey; perhaps that's because MLB is picking up 100% of the tab for player salaries, which is obviously not the case in the ECHL.

After all my blathering and getting back to the point at hand, yes, it makes some sense to break up the AHL and ECHL. I haven't seen an ECHL income statement lately, but my experience from baseball is that travel can be a significant line item. Creating geographically focused leagues could do a lot to cut that expense. Whether that comes to fruition I imagine is more a matter of politics than economics or even player development. But hey, I'm just a longtime baseball guy, so what do I know.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Paul Feely's City Hall: ECHL commish would like to see Manchester back on ice


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Its been confirmed NO Ownership group has started any official league process to put a team back in Manchester as confirmed by Ryan crelin and any earlier talks about ownership are false


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Its been confirmed NO Ownership group has started any official league process to put a team back in Manchester as confirmed by Ryan crelin and any earlier talks about ownership are false


----------



## Atlantian

Prior to all this shit going down, I would’ve said in the next 5 years, Brampton and Norfolk are out and Manchester, TR, San Antonio in for sure with Savannah a possible relocation spot. But no clue how the new recession is gonna affect the league.


----------



## mk80

Atlantian said:


> Prior to all this shit going down, I would’ve said in the next 5 years, Brampton and Norfolk are out and Manchester, TR, *San Antonio *in for sure with Savannah a possible relocation spot. But no clue how the new recession is gonna affect the league.



I wouldn't put SA as a guarantee for the ECHL even if the virus hadn't come along. The city's situation as it stands right now is much like Houston's where there is support for the sport and teams, but the only arenas in town are controlled by the NBA teams who have decided they don't want hockey in their building unless it's the NHL in the case of Houston, and for SA, selling the Rampage indicates they at least don't want to own a team, and Spurs Sports & Entertainment essentially runs the town with their profile of offerings.


----------



## JMCx4

Atlantian said:


> *Prior to all this shit going down, I would’ve said in the next 5 years, Brampton and Norfolk are out and Manchester, TR, San Antonio in for sure with Savannah a possible relocation spot.* But no clue how the new recession is gonna affect the league.



So there *IS* one bright spot in this pandemic: It got all that nonsense outta your system.


----------



## 210

hurricanesfan123 said:


> Paul Feely's City Hall: ECHL commish would like to see Manchester back on ice



"Crelin said that though he hoped to see a team in the Queen City, “we have not received an application from an interested ownership group to go back into the market at this time.""

That is absolutely false.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

210 said:


> "Crelin said that though he hoped to see a team in the Queen City, “we have not received an application from an interested ownership group to go back into the market at this time.""
> 
> That is absolutely false.




Do you have anything to substantiate your claim that the ECHL commissioner lied?


----------



## hurricanesfan123

why would the commissioner lie about something like that.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

mk80 said:


> I wouldn't put SA as a guarantee for the ECHL even if the virus hadn't come along. The city's situation as it stands right now is much like Houston's where there is support for the sport and teams, but the only arenas in town are controlled by the NBA teams who have decided they don't want hockey in their building unless it's the NHL in the case of Houston, and for SA, selling the Rampage indicates they at least don't want to own a team, and Spurs Sports & Entertainment essentially runs the town with their profile of offerings.



Even if Spurs Sports & Entertainment only replaces half the AHL dates with concerts wrestling etc. It will mostly likely bring in more revenue than an ECHL team ever could.


----------



## 210

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Do you have anything to substantiate your claim that the ECHL commissioner lied?




I did not say he lied, I said his comment is false. Perhaps Crelin didn't really hear the question, or maybe Feely misunderstood the answer. Or maybe the ECHL doesn't consider going through the vetting process as submitting an application to join the league unless the group has a lease worked out. And based on previously posted comments by the mayor of Manchester it certainly points to the answer being incorrect. But be that as it may, I've talked to the potential owner on more than one occasion and stand by my comments. I'm actually more interested in why the SNHU people couldn't be reached for comment. It's almost like they didn't want to talk about it. Perhaps Feely should look into that.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

210 said:


> I did not say he lied, I said his comment is false. Perhaps Crelin didn't really hear the question, or maybe Feely misunderstood the answer. Or maybe the ECHL doesn't consider going through the vetting process as submitting an application to join the league unless the group has a lease worked out. And based on previously posted comments by the mayor of Manchester it certainly points to the answer being incorrect. But be that as it may, I've talked to the potential owner on more than one occasion and stand by my comments. I'm actually more interested in why the SNHU people couldn't be reached for comment. It's almost like they didn't want to talk about it. Perhaps Feely should look into that.



Interesting any idea how long this "vetting process" lasts


----------



## 210

hurricanesfan123 said:


> Interesting any idea how long this "vetting process" lasts




I think Cliff Rucker said up to 6 months...but I never wrote that down so my recollection could be way off. It's financials, business plan, stuff like that.


----------



## mk80

Centrum Hockey said:


> Even if Spurs Sports & Entertainment only replaces half the AHL dates with concerts wrestling etc. It will mostly likely bring in more revenue than an ECHL team ever could.



The one thing SA has going for it, is SSE hasn't directly said they are completely against hosting hockey or having it in the building. So if someone wanted to pay the rent for the dates and conversion of the arena, etc. they could be open to it. But by selling the Rampage they did make clear they don't want to own a team right now.


----------



## Atlantian

mk80 said:


> by selling the Rampage they did make clear they don't want to own a team right now.



I’m not sure if that’s necessarily true. I’ve never seen the terms of the sale but I can almost guarantee Vegas made a very substantial offer for the Rampage.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Atlantian said:


> I’m not sure if that’s necessarily true. I’ve never seen the terms of the sale but I can almost guarantee Vegas made a very substantial offer for the Rampage.



There has been a pattern of spurs sports and entertainment selling off other assets to refocus on the spurs other than the rampage they sold off the WNBA stars also to a Vegas group.


----------



## mk80

Atlantian said:


> I’m not sure if that’s necessarily true. I’ve never seen the terms of the sale but I can almost guarantee Vegas made a very substantial offer for the Rampage.




I'm reading between the lines admittedly but I get that sense of them not wanting to own a team based on this sentence of the press release: SPURS SPORTS & ENTERTAINMENT ANNOUNCES SALE OF SAN ANTONIO RAMPAGE AHL MEMBERSHIP TO VEGAS GOLDEN KNIGHTS | San Antonio Rampage

“While this was a difficult decision to make, we believe this move is best for the long-term success of Spurs Sports & Entertainment.”

No doubt your right in that Vegas was searching for a team to buy and offered a nice amount of cash, but I would think if SSE had long-term interest in owning a hockey team they wouldn't have sold a team where the hockey side was all controlled by the Blues (player, coach, GM salaries, call ups). SSE essentially just paid the costs to turn on the lights, freeze the ice, theme night giveaways, and the front office personnel selling tickets, sponsors, marketing etc. many of whom I'm sure also work on the basketball side. And if you want to believe accuracy of HockeyDB attendance, sell overpriced concessions to a 6k people per game.

If they purchased an ECHL team they'd now being paying players, coaches, other hockey ops staff, plus all the rest, including an ECHL expansion fee. Sure ECHL salaries are cheaper but it's an added cost they didn't have with the Rampage. Like I said they haven't said they are completely against having hockey in the building, so it's possible they could work out a deal with another independent owner, or I'm completely wrong and they buy an ECHL franchise because they want more independence in operating the team to win championships.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Railers: Next step in striding toward making Worcester a winner
Providence hated the idea of having a bruins echl affiliate near them.I don't know how this effects any Manchester expansion team if at all.


> Even during the season, there were discussions within the Railers organization about the affiliation. Worcester talked with the Bruins about becoming their ECHL affiliate, but the AHL Providence Bruins were dead set against having a competing Spoked Wheel just 40 miles up the road*. *


----------



## 210

There's no "reportedly" about it. The P-Bruins consider Worcester their territory and don't want anything drawing crowds away from Providence. In the AHL days the WorSharks territorial bubble didn't include Millbury, and that's the next town over.


----------



## Big Z Man 1990

Maybe if the Boston Bruins gain outright ownership of the P-Bruins it would clear a major hurdle to affiliating with Worcester in the ECHL.


----------



## sabremike

Big Z Man 1990 said:


> Maybe if the Boston Bruins gain outright ownership of the P-Bruins it would clear a major hurdle to affiliating with Worcester in the ECHL.



If the Bruins wanted to push the issue couldn't they just tell Providence if they keep making a stink about them affiliating with Worcester we'll drop you as our AHL affiliate and kill your cash cow dead?


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Big Z Man 1990 said:


> Maybe if the Boston Bruins gain outright ownership of the P-Bruins it would clear a major hurdle to affiliating with Worcester in the ECHL.






sabremike said:


> If the Bruins wanted to push the issue couldn't they just tell Providence if they keep making a stink about them affiliating with Worcester we'll drop you as our AHL affiliate and kill your cash cow dead?



The only way the Bruins/Jacobs ever get involved with the business side of minor league hockey is if the Providence ownership/front office wants to drop the bruins name and colors or if the dunk wants to go with another concession company other than that they could care less about the business of minor league hockey.


----------



## 210

Big Z Man 1990 said:


> Maybe if the Boston Bruins gain outright ownership of the P-Bruins it would clear a major hurdle to affiliating with Worcester in the ECHL.



Why would the Boston Bruins want to own the P-Bruins? They control everything that goes on in Providence but don't pay anything but hockey-related expenses. Plus if Boston really wanted to they could affiliate with Worcester because Providence can't stop them. They just choose not to because they value their relationship in Providence.


----------



## 210

All that being said, don't be shocked if there are a couple of Bruins players in Worcester in 20-21.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

pretty sure Boston will be with Atlanta next year as well and possibly the visible future but I've been hearing if manchester is back in 2021-2022 the people there really want a bruins affiliated echl team. But I've heard that with Maine to so I'm not sure.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> pretty sure Boston will be with Atlanta next year as well and possibly the visible future but I've been hearing if manchester is back in 2021-2022 the people there really want a bruins affiliated echl team. But I've heard that with Maine to so I'm not sure.




Rangers and Hartford will likely control the affiliation in Portland....as long as Spectra controls both Cross Arena and the Mariners, and runs the Pack business-wise, as well as XL Center no matter where the MSG split into what operation the Pack are placed corporately.


----------



## CANADIENSFAN90

if manchester gets a echl team back they need the bruins


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

CANADIENSFAN90 said:


> if manchester gets a echl team back they need the bruins



question is who owns them.....


----------



## Centrum Hockey

hurricanesfan123 said:


> pretty sure Boston will be with Atlanta next year as well and possibly the visible future but I've been hearing if manchester is back in 2021-2022 the people there really want a bruins affiliated echl team. But I've heard that with Maine to so I'm not sure.





CANADIENSFAN90 said:


> if manchester gets a echl team back they need the bruins



Would Providence have an issue with Manchester?


----------



## 210

Centrum Hockey said:


> Would Providence have an issue with Manchester?




My guess is they wouldn't.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Centrum Hockey said:


> Would Providence have an issue with Manchester?



this isn't Boston/Worcester, Centrum.....Boston likely doesn't control Providence although that's been the perception but the issue is the state of Rhode Island which oversees the arena in Providence which is why the "official" transfer of Providence to owned/operated much like you've seen the trend has not occurred....


----------



## Centrum Hockey

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> this isn't Boston/Worcester, Centrum.....Boston likely doesn't control Providence although that's been the perception but the issue is the state of Rhode Island which oversees the arena in Providence which is why the "official" transfer of Providence to owned/operated much like you've seen the trend has not occurred....



Boston 100% controls Providence The Jacobs family would revoke the affiliation as soon as they possibly Could if the Dunkin Donuts center ever dropped Delaware north.


----------



## 210

Centrum Hockey said:


> Boston 100% controls Providence The Jacobs family would revoke the affiliation as soon as they possibly Could if the Dunkin Donuts center ever dropped Delaware north.



Correct.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Centrum Hockey said:


> Boston 100% controls Providence The Jacobs family would revoke the affiliation as soon as they possibly Could if the Dunkin Donuts center ever dropped Delaware north.



that's the perception, Centrum..... in fact it's the Rhode Island Convention Authority who operates the Dunkin'Donuts Center, Boston doesn't own the franchise in Providence...... Renfroe does and has since he acquired the franchise, something 210 has finally bungled.....otherwise wouldn't the Bruins be listed as the owner/operator, just like you see San Jose, LA, EDM, CAL, Vegas, ETC Do with their AHL affiliates revocation wouldn't happen anyway because it's to 2029.... and what market would receive the franchise, it won't be in New England, and LA did that for years with Manchester, why would you want to fight every time the affiliation comes up to have it relocated at a moments notice....much like the Sharks did in 2014....


----------



## Centrum Hockey

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> that's the perception, Centrum..... in fact it's the Rhode Island Convention Authority who operates the Dunkin'Donuts Center, Boston doesn't own the franchise in Providence...... Renfroe does and has since he acquired the franchise, something 210 has finally bungled.....otherwise wouldn't the Bruins be listed as the owner/operator, just like you see San Jose, LA, EDM, CAL, Vegas, ETC Do with their AHL affiliates revocation wouldn't happen anyway because it's to 2029.... and what market would receive the franchise, it won't be in New England, and LA did that for years with Manchester, why would you want to fight every time the affiliation comes up to have it relocated at a moments notice....much like the Sharks did in 2014....



@210 wasn’t wrong about anything. It doesn’t matter how long the deal is.If Delaware North is dropped Jacobs will revoke the bruins affiliation and he will affiliate with any AHL team that agrees to his terms even if it was in another part of the country.


----------



## 210

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> Boston doesn't own the franchise in Providence...... Renfroe does and has since he acquired the franchise, something 210 has finally bungled....




I have never once indicated anywhere anything to the contrary.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Centrum Hockey said:


> @210 wasn’t wrong about anything. It doesn’t matter how long the deal if Delaware North is dropped Jacobs will revoke the bruins affiliation and he will affiliate with any AHL team that agrees to his terms even if it was in another part of the country.



nope, RICA has the contract, Centrum, it doesn't change the narrative that Boston has never owned or operated or both a franchise.... Providence isn't owned it's still privatized until the deal transfers the rights from Renfroe to Boston.... much like how St. Louis and San Jose owned the franchise in Worcester until their transfer to other markets unlike what the Railers are now... which is considered private ownership.... not corporate.... in other words, Boston has to buy the franchise outright pending league approval, otherwise it's simply an affiliation PDC

in essence, Delaware North has nothing to do with with the operation or the affiliation because it's the team or franchise WHICH negotiates the lease agreement.... not the NHL Club, unless they own it....some NHL Teams will not step in to a lease dispute even when asked by the affiliate as what occurred in Portland which is the major reason the County Trustee oversight board was dismissed as they didn't have the best interest of the tenant/franchise


----------



## hurricanesfan123

here are some possible bruins echl affiliates none include manchester because no team is coming to Manchester next year confirmed deadline is passed so no manchester bruins 

Could the Bruins change their ECHL affiliate next year?


----------



## hurricanesfan123

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> question is who owns them.....



no one no manchester for at least a year


----------



## hurricanesfan123

it would be cool if Boston brought back Maine in the farm system


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> it would be cool if Boston brought back Maine in the farm system



that's what cost the franchise in 1988-91, hurricanesfan....add to that Comcast Spectacor owns the franchise and the market since it was the Flyers who came here in 1977 to establish the market.....Boston did nothing but interfere with private ownership much the same way it has instructed in all operations in Providence since their arrival there.....

in fact Hartford is the original Providence franchise, which dates back a decade before the AHL was even in its current format......what their plan was to split the home territory and the AHL blocked that territorial which is why the Flyers won the Portland territory to establish pro hockey here....

in fact, Providence tried to claim the championship banners the 1st 2 seasons of the original Mariners and the 83-84 title that was affiliated with the Devils once the Flyers sold the affiliate outright


----------



## hurricanesfan123

ive seen everyone has talked about other markets but what about Peoria rivermen rejoining the echl anyone think this is a possibility


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> ive seen everyone has talked about other markets but what about Peoria rivermen rejoining the echl anyone think this is a possibility



with what affiliation.....and likely not an option after the Blues tarnished that market indirectly with how the Peoria/Worcester contract was handled was publically reported at tjhat time, and not for a 600K franchise fee


----------



## JDogindy

hurricanesfan123 said:


> ive seen everyone has talked about other markets but what about Peoria rivermen rejoining the echl anyone think this is a possibility




Likely not. As odd of a placement the SPHL is, at least there is a current alignment established with Evansville and Quad City, not to mention cost between operations in SPHL versus the ECHL.


----------



## JMCx4

hurricanesfan123 said:


> ive seen everyone has talked about other markets but what about Peoria rivermen rejoining the echl anyone think this is a possibility



Peoria's hockey future is very easy to read: If their long-time beat writer Dave Eminian isn't bad mouthing the league the home team is in, then he's been told they're staying put.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

hurricanesfan123 said:


> ive seen everyone has talked about other markets but what about Peoria rivermen rejoining the echl anyone think this is a possibility




Highly unlikely. They were originally an ECHL team but joined the AHL. They reconsidered rejoining the ECHL when the AHL team was purchased by the Vancouver Canucks, but ultimately chose the SPHL. Their attendance is middle-of-the-road of the SP and would be on the lower end of the ECHL. It is likely that ownership prefers to be profitable in the SP rather than fighting to stay out of the red in the EC.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Huh, I will give peoria credit fans were able to take the AHL to SPHL jump. Unlike some other markets who couldn't take a lower league jump


----------



## JMCx4

hurricanesfan123 said:


> Huh, I will give peoria credit fans were able to take the AHL to SPHL jump. Unlike some other markets who couldn't take a lower league jump



The only thing that could chase away a significant number of the remaining Peoria hockey fans would be changing the hometown team name to something other than Rivermen. As long as current & future ownership keeps that in mind, they'll get support for a bunch of guys skating in orange jump suits with a I.D.O.C. logo on the front & 6-digit numbers on the back. Only players with violent backgrounds need apply.


----------



## JMCx4

Dupe (and not for emphasis)


----------



## sabremike

JMCx4 said:


> The only thing that could chase away a significant number of the remaining Peoria hockey fans would be changing the hometown team name to something other than Rivermen. As long as current & future ownership keeps that in mind, they'll get support for a bunch of guys skating in orange jump suits with a I.D.O.C. logo on the front & 6-digit numbers on the back. Only players with violent backgrounds need apply.



What are Bruce Watson and Billy Tibbets up to these days?


----------



## JMCx4

sabremike said:


> What are Bruce Watson and Billy Tibbets up to these days?



Now THOSE are two names I haven't heard of in awhile.


----------



## 210

sabremike said:


> What are Bruce Watson and Billy Tibbets up to these days?




Last I heard Tibbets was in jail...


----------



## Cyclones Rock

210 said:


> Last I heard Tibbets was in jail...



Scituate's Billy Tibbetts gets another year in jail after drug arrest


----------



## JDogindy

sabremike said:


> What are Bruce Watson and Billy Tibbets up to these days?




Surprised they didn't turn up in Quebec.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

Cyclones Rock said:


> Scituate's Billy Tibbetts gets another year in jail after drug arrest




Poor guy just can't help himself. 

A few years ago, he was collared following a chase that ended with him fleeing after crashing his car while being pursued by the State Police.

The arresting officer was Mark Concannon, a former ECHLer himself.

Source: Former hockey pro arrested after South Shore chase


----------



## Cyclones Rock

CrazyEddie20 said:


> Poor guy just can't help himself.
> 
> A few years ago, he was collared following a chase that ended with him fleeing after crashing his car while being pursued by the State Police.
> 
> The arresting officer was *Mark Concannon, a former ECHLer *himself.
> 
> Source: Former hockey pro arrested after South Shore chase




Good pick up from the article.

Very brief career. I remember him as a Cyclones player. I hope he's a better cop than he was hockey player.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Does anyone think Brampton will even make it to next season from what I've heard their subsidy from the city ends this year and sadly attendance is 2nd to last and according to hockeydb (Brampton Beast [ECHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com) attendence has been decreasing every year. I am pretty sure they have multiple person ownership group. Anyone know whats going on up there or have the inside scoop?


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Brampton’s sports team subsidy a Beast-ly decision for taxpayers: Keenan


----------



## JDogindy

hurricanesfan123 said:


> Brampton’s sports team subsidy a Beast-ly decision for taxpayers: Keenan




Brampton has never supported hockey at any level (pro, junior, or otherwise) and right now, it's an even larger burden for the city.

Would make total sense to kill the team off.


----------



## JMCx4

Might be time to change the thread title to: "*ECHL to 20 Teams?*"


----------



## hurricanesfan123

JMCx4 said:


> Might be time to change the thread title to: "*ECHL to 20 Teams?*"




States are starting to reopen and the season starts in half a year so i think we can start on time


----------



## JMCx4

hurricanesfan123 said:


> States are starting to reopen and *the season starts in half a year* so i think we can start on time



Did I miss a news flash?


----------



## Cyclones Rock

hurricanesfan123 said:


> States are starting to reopen and the season starts in half a year so i think we can start on time




If capacities are limited when the season starts, it's going to be very interesting to see the pricing structures of teams.


----------



## JMCx4

Cyclones Rock said:


> If capacities are limited when the season starts, it's going to be very interesting to see the pricing structures of teams.



There goes the two-tier pricing @ USBA?


----------



## Cyclones Rock

JMCx4 said:


> There goes the two-tier pricing @ USBA?




Actually, I wouldn't have even called it "two tier" since only row 1 (glass) was priced differently.

I wonder what I'd be willing to pay for a limited seat? I've been so spoiled by the Cyclones ST prices (basically $10/seat if you include the 4 'buddy passes') that it would be odd to have to pay a reasonable price to see a game


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

Shit some of the teams are already down to 25% attendance on average . realistically . some of the mid level markets would be affected it would be operation as normal. The top teams in attendance Toledo , Cincinnati , Orlando , Jacksonville and Fort Wayne


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> Shit some of the teams are already down to 25% attendance on average . realistically . some of the mid level markets would be affected it would be operation as normal. The top teams in attendance Toledo , Cincinnati , Orlando , Jacksonville and Fort Wayne




I would not look too hard at attendance. Just about every ECHL market I can think of has their best attendance at the end of the season.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

not trying to beat a dead horse here but some of these look like they could be potential echl cities which ones look the most realistic

Trenton- Cure Insurance Arena seats a little over 8,000 and can fit nicely in the echl footprint near reading, wheeling and 4 ish hours from worcester (this one surprises there haven't been even rumors of a team returning here)

Reno- i think i read there isn't a sutible arena but the echl has talked about coming here a while back

Oklahoma City- again i remember the echl talking about coming here. It could fit their footprint with proximity to Tulsa and Allen

Richmond- Fred Festa was interested in owning a team but navy hill project fell through. Close to Norfolk and Greenville (go swamp rabbits!!)

Manchester- this has been discussed from what i know no owner or plans laid out

Trois Riveries- this has also been discussed and from what I know they have a owner (dean Mcdonald) but the city has to get on board.

Albany - this one is more unlikely because arena to big and times union center is filling up with events but suprised no rumors or really anything about this market.

San Antonio - Spurs aren't interested but its been talked about


this will be my last expansion post just not trying to annoy everyone
Thanks
Edit: (some of these have been answered like reno or Oklahoma city being unsuitable)


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

hurricanesfan123 said:


> not trying to beat a dead horse here but some of these look like they could be potential echl cities which ones look the most realistic
> 
> Trenton- Cure Insurance Arena seats a little over 8,000 and can fit nicely in the echl footprint near reading, wheeling and 4 ish hours from worcester (this one surprises there haven't been even rumors of a team returning here)
> 
> Reno- i think i read there isn't a sutible arena but the echl has talked about coming here a while back
> 
> Oklahoma City- again i remember the echl talking about coming here. It could fit their footprint with proximity to Tulsa and Allen
> 
> Richmond- Fred Festa was interested in owning a team but navy hill project fell through. Close to Norfolk and Greenville (go swamp rabbits!!)
> 
> Manchester- this has been discussed from what i know no owner or plans laid out
> 
> Trois Riveries- this has also been discussed and from what I know they have a owner (dean Mcdonald) but the city has to get on board.
> 
> Albany - this one is more unlikely because arena to big and times union center is filling up with events but suprised no rumors or really anything about this market.
> 
> San Antonio - Spurs aren't interested but its been talked about
> 
> 
> this will be my last expansion post just not trying to annoy everyone
> Thanks
> Edit: (some of these have been answered like reno or Oklahoma city being unsuitable)




Trenton: Had good attendance their first two years, but when the shiny new team effect wore off they suffered 12 years of bad attendance, often the worst in the league. One of those markets where there are better hockey options nearby, it was nice that they tried making it work but no one is surprised it didn't. They have an arena, but lacks the market interest along with ownership group.

Richmond: needed $1 billion in funding to get the Navy Hill Arena funding. That didn't happen. Playing in the Richmond Coliseum isn't a possibility for many reasons. Would be a good market that could easily find an owner if they had a suitable arena.

Manchester: some on here claim there has been talks but none have been publicized.

T-R: will likely get a team in 2021-22, time can only answer whether it is the ECHL or QMJHL.

Albany: Times Union Center actually prefers not having pro hockey. They already have a full schedule with basketball, concerts, expos, conventions and the everything else they host. Even if there was an interested group at any level, I doubt TUC would even give them a lease as there are more profitable events to host.

San Antonio: the one possible owner just proved that they are uninterested in minor pro hockey.


----------



## royals119

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Trenton: Had good attendance their first two years, but when the shiny new team effect wore off they suffered 12 years of bad attendance, often the worst in the league. One of those markets where there are better hockey options nearby, it was nice that they tried making it work but no one is surprised it didn't. They have an arena, but lacks the market interest along with ownership group.



They had good attendance for longer than two years. At the end the locals are more Philly fans than Devils, and the last two sets of owners burned a lot of bridges with stupid policies, (no single game tickets available between the blue lines for example) poor marketing, and unpaid bills. The remaining STH's got burned the final year with deposits that weren't returned and merchandise not delivered after it was paid for. It will take a while for the bad taste to go away, but eventually, with the right owner and an affiliation that isn't the Devils, it could work again. 




> San Antonio: the one possible owner just proved that they are uninterested in minor pro hockey.



Well, the proved that they had a price, and reports are that Vegas paid much more than the team was worth in order to get a franchise. I REALLY like my house, not interested in selling or moving, but if somebody came along and offered me double the value I'd probably sell it. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in owning a house, or that I wasn't happy with my current house - just that I didn't turn down a stupid high offer.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> not trying to beat a dead horse here but some of these look like they could be potential echl cities which ones look the most realistic
> 
> Trenton- Cure Insurance Arena seats a little over 8,000 and can fit nicely in the echl footprint near reading, wheeling and 4 ish hours from worcester (this one surprises there haven't been even rumors of a team returning here)
> 
> Reno- i think i read there isn't a sutible arena but the echl has talked about coming here a while back
> 
> Oklahoma City- again i remember the echl talking about coming here. It could fit their footprint with proximity to Tulsa and Allen
> 
> Richmond- Fred Festa was interested in owning a team but navy hill project fell through. Close to Norfolk and Greenville (go swamp rabbits!!)
> 
> Manchester- this has been discussed from what i know no owner or plans laid out
> 
> Trois Riveries- this has also been discussed and from what I know they have a owner (dean Mcdonald) but the city has to get on board.
> 
> Albany - this one is more unlikely because arena to big and times union center is filling up with events but suprised no rumors or really anything about this market.
> 
> San Antonio - Spurs aren't interested but its been talked about
> 
> 
> this will be my last expansion post just not trying to annoy everyone
> Thanks
> Edit: (some of these have been answered like reno or Oklahoma city being unsuitable)




Richmond has no arena the Coliseum has outlived its timeframe ; 
Albany isn't needed at the present time because you could endanger Adirondack..... it's what led to Adirondack disappearing and then Albany has no need to pursue a team(think Kansas City/Sprint Center); it's also why the Mavericks rebuked St. Louis a few years ago and everyone knows the KC history (Pittsburgh looked at that before their arena was rebuilt....)

OKC just added an NA3HL BASED IN Edmond


----------



## Centrum Hockey

royals119 said:


> They had good attendance for longer than two years. At the end the locals are more Philly fans than Devils, and the last two sets of owners burned a lot of bridges with stupid policies, (no single game tickets available between the blue lines for example) poor marketing, and unpaid bills. The remaining STH's got burned the final year with deposits that weren't returned and merchandise not delivered after it was paid for. It will take a while for the bad taste to go away, but eventually, with the right owner and an affiliation that isn't the Devils, it could work again.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the proved that they had a price, and reports are that Vegas paid much more than the team was worth in order to get a franchise. I REALLY like my house, not interested in selling or moving, but if somebody came along and offered me double the value I'd probably sell it. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in owning a house, or that I wasn't happy with my current house - just that I didn't turn down a stupid high offer.



The margins for a San Antonio ECHL team would be pretty low if they made any money at all. For such as big arena they would need a very large season ticket base to justify it.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

royals119 said:


> They had good attendance for longer than two years. At the end the locals are more Philly fans than Devils, and the last two sets of owners burned a lot of bridges with stupid policies, (no single game tickets available between the blue lines for example) poor marketing, and unpaid bills. The remaining STH's got burned the final year with deposits that weren't returned and merchandise not delivered after it was paid for. It will take a while for the bad taste to go away, but eventually, with the right owner and an affiliation that isn't the Devils, it could work again.




I only saw two remarkable years before it slipped into the 5000s, and then eventually the lows. And I would still connect those few remaining 5000s to a certain newness effect.



royals119 said:


> Well, the proved that they had a price, and reports are that Vegas paid much more than the team was worth in order to get a franchise. I REALLY like my house, not interested in selling or moving, but if somebody came along and offered me double the value I'd probably sell it. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in owning a house, or that I wasn't happy with my current house - just that I didn't turn down a stupid high offer.




Most of the recent markets who lost the AHL have all tried to get it back in some way. Most of the cities were linked to the ECHL by the summer at the latest and most expressed interest all the way up until that. Spurs Sports & Entertainment announced they were selling the team for the best long-term interest of SS&E. Their press release said in no uncertain terms that hockey was a drain, and they were linked with changing their interest to soccer instead. Selling Rampage viewed by insiders as prudent move for Spurs. That certainly sounds like a lack of interest in having hockey, especially _"Although Wolff said he isn’t privy to details of the Rampage’s financial performance, the county’s top elected official was quick to add, “You don’t dump something that is making you a lot of money.” Selling the Rampage minor league hockey team strengthens the company that owns and operates the Spurs by eliminating a financial drain, Bexar County Judge Nelson Wolff and other insiders said Friday._


----------



## royals119

Centrum Hockey said:


> The margins for a San Antonio ECHL team would be pretty low if they made any money at all. For such as big arena they would need a very large season ticket base to justify it.



Orlando seats 17K for hockey, Jacksonville 13K, San Antonio is 16K. So it is possible in that size arena


----------



## royals119

Barclay Donaldson said:


> I only saw two remarkable years before it slipped into the 5000s, and then eventually the lows. And I would still connect those few remaining 5000s to a certain newness effect.



5000 is good attendance for the ECHL. Even 4000 is a decent average, teams have survived for many years with those numbers, or even less. 





> Most of the recent markets who lost the AHL have all tried to get it back in some way. Most of the cities were linked to the ECHL by the summer at the latest and most expressed interest all the way up until that. Spurs Sports & Entertainment announced they were selling the team for the best long-term interest of SS&E. Their press release said in no uncertain terms that hockey was a drain, and they were linked with changing their interest to soccer instead. Selling Rampage viewed by insiders as prudent move for Spurs. That certainly sounds like a lack of interest in having hockey, especially _"Although Wolff said he isn’t privy to details of the Rampage’s financial performance, the county’s top elected official was quick to add, “You don’t dump something that is making you a lot of money.” Selling the Rampage minor league hockey team strengthens the company that owns and operates the Spurs by eliminating a financial drain, Bexar County Judge Nelson Wolff and other insiders said Friday._



In their "defense" they only lost their team at the end of the past season - which technically ended only a few days ago. With the current Covid-19 situation, even if they were desperate to have a team it would be difficult to put something together right now, and obviously with the dominoes still falling in the AHL getting another team quickly would be quite difficult. I'm not saying there is any indication they want a team, or that they will get a team. I'm just saying that writing off the market forever based on the fact that they accepted a (reportedly) huge offer doesn't mean they won't ever get back in the game. A year or two down the road, if the economy is recovering and sports are doing better than concerts, and they can pick up an ECHL team cheaply and there is an affiliate who really wants to put some players there and provide a coaching staff, who knows?


----------



## Centrum Hockey

royals119 said:


> Orlando seats 17K for hockey, Jacksonville 13K, San Antonio is 16K. So it is possible in that size arena



There are usually some rumors that come up every now and again that Tampa really wants Orlando in the AHL but i don't think there is proof they have even studied the possibility or ever considered it.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Centrum Hockey said:


> There are usually some rumors that come up every now and again that Tampa really wants Orlando in the AHL but i don't think there is proof they have even studied the possibility or ever considered it.



Dolgon has the same relationship with Tampa......same with VAN/Utica..... Orlando cannot move up anyway because the same ownership operates Grand Rapids, Centrum...... AHL requires 1 owner per franchise, hence why the Islanders landed Bridgeport when Boe moved on from there..... it's also why the Blues 'defaulted' into the owner/operation business until they sold the affiliate to Vancouver..... it's also why Kansas City and Orlando weren't approved in 2001.... the same bylaw over 1 owner per franchise is why the Atlanta affiliation went to Chicago.... and Orlando went dark for 11 seasons before the current version.

Roy Boe ran Springfield/Worcester for the most part.... then started working with Bridgeport.... the League told him to represent one or the other, he chose Bridgeport.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> Dolgon has the same relationship with Tampa......same with VAN/Utica..... Orlando cannot move up anyway because the same ownership operates Grand Rapids, Centrum...... AHL requires 1 owner per franchise, hence why the Islanders landed Bridgeport when Boe moved on from there..... it's also why the Blues 'defaulted' into the owner/operation business until they sold the affiliate to Vancouver..... it's also why Kansas City and Orlando weren't approved in 2001.... the same bylaw over 1 owner per franchise is why the Atlanta affiliation went to Chicago.... and Orlando went dark for 11 seasons before the current version.
> 
> Roy Boe ran Springfield/Worcester for the most part.... then started working with Bridgeport.... the League told him to represent one or the other, he chose Bridgeport.



Worcester has nothing to do with what i posted.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Centrum Hockey said:


> Worcester has nothing to do with what i posted.




He does that... occasionally.

Be like the mods and pretend he doesn't exist, that will surely fix it.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Centrum Hockey said:


> Worcester has nothing to do with what i posted.



Centrum:

then why are u posting about Orlando being promoted.... they cannot be promoted unless the Devos group sells Grand Rapids, that's the bylaw in the AHL..... YOU Cannot own multiple teams in the same league..... that's why Roy Boe lost the IceCats as majority owner and how the Blues defaulted as the owner and operator until they sold the franchise to Vancouver..... it's also one of the parameters as to why Kansas City and Orlando in their initial franchise weren't approved because of that bylaw when the league expanded to 27..... after the dissolution of the IHL

Grand Rapids goes adios if Orlando is promoted because it's the same ownership group operating both franchises


----------



## 210

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> Roy Boe ran Springfield/Worcester for the most part.... then started working with Bridgeport.... the League told him to represent one or the other, he chose Bridgeport.




Once again talking about Worcester hockey history and getting it wrong.

Roy Boe bought the Springfield Indians and moved them to Worcester. In no manner did he have anything to do with running Springfield.

The AHL didn't tell Boe he had to pick between Worcester and Bridgeport because he'd already done that before there was an application entered for Bridgeport. Boe had a handshake deal with Rick Kohn in the summer of 2000 to sell him the IceCats, but that deal fell through because of the amount of debt the team had (most of which was owed to the Blues). Todd Clark stepped up and attempted to buy the IceCats, but the Blues decided they'd buy the team instead of dealing with Clark as an owner. It was Blues assistant GM John Ferguson, Jr who convinced them that owning the team was the better choice.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

210 said:


> Once again talking about Worcester hockey history and getting it wrong.
> 
> Roy Boe bought the Springfield Indians and moved them to Worcester. In no manner did he have anything to do with running Springfield.
> 
> The AHL didn't tell Boe he had to pick between Worcester and Bridgeport because he'd already done that before there was an application entered for Bridgeport. Boe had a handshake deal with Rick Kohn in the summer of 2000 to sell him the IceCats, but that deal fell through because of the amount of debt the team had (most of which was owed to the Blues0. Todd Clark stepped up and attempted to buy the IceCats, but the Blues decided they'd buy the team instead of dealing with Clark as an owner. It was Blues assistant GM John Ferguson, Jr who convinced them that owning the team was the better choice.



Darryl but the league rules prohibit a team like Orlando, which has common ownership with Grand Rapids.... the point is the Solar Bears simply cannot be promoted if that ownership group already operates another franchise..... 

which has been discussed and Centrum clearly never gets anything right anyway..... why did the AHL Choose Grand Rapids over both Kansas City and Orlando.... that's the bylaw which some clearly will never understand


----------



## Centrum Hockey

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> Darryl but the league rules prohibit a team like Orlando, which has common ownership with Grand Rapids.... the point is the Solar Bears simply cannot be promoted if that ownership group already operates another franchise.....
> 
> which has been discussed and Centrum clearly never gets anything right anyway..... why did the AHL Choose Grand Rapids over both Kansas City and Orlando.... that's the bylaw which some clearly will never understand



I never said Orlando was moving up I don’t think you read the whole thing.


----------



## 210

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> Darryl but the league rules prohibit a team like Orlando, which has common ownership with Grand Rapids.... the point is the Solar Bears simply cannot be promoted if that ownership group already operates another franchise.....
> 
> which has been discussed and Centrum clearly never gets anything right anyway..... why did the AHL Choose Grand Rapids over both Kansas City and Orlando.... that's the bylaw which some clearly will never understand




He did not post what you think he posted. It's still there. Go read it.


----------



## 210

Centrum Hockey said:


> I never said Orlando was moving up I don’t think you read the whole thing.




Your post was loud and clear.


----------



## JMCx4

hurricanesfan123 said:


> not trying to beat a dead horse here but ...



Here, lemme help ...


----------



## Cyclones Rock

royals119 said:


> Orlando seats 17K for hockey, Jacksonville 13K, San Antonio is 16K. So it is possible in that size arena




Heritage Bank Center (nee US Bank Arena nee The Crown nee Riverfront Coliseum) seats 16k.


----------



## royals119

Cyclones Rock said:


> Heritage Bank Center (nee US Bank Arena nee The Crown nee Riverfront Coliseum) seats 16k.



Thanks - perfect example of the point I was making - an ECHL team can be successful in a large building like San Antonio, if the other factors (ownership, lease, management, affiliation, etc) are in place.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

JMCx4 said:


> Here, lemme help ...



thank you lol this is what i needed


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Trenton: Had good attendance their first two years, but when the shiny new team effect wore off they suffered 12 years of bad attendance, often the worst in the league. One of those markets where there are better hockey options nearby, it was nice that they tried making it work but no one is surprised it didn't. They have an arena, but lacks the market interest along with ownership group.
> 
> Richmond: needed $1 billion in funding to get the Navy Hill Arena funding. That didn't happen. Playing in the Richmond Coliseum isn't a possibility for many reasons. Would be a good market that could easily find an owner if they had a suitable arena.
> 
> Manchester: some on here claim there has been talks but none have been publicized.
> 
> T-R: will likely get a team in 2021-22, time can only answer whether it is the ECHL or QMJHL.
> 
> Albany: Times Union Center actually prefers not having pro hockey. They already have a full schedule with basketball, concerts, expos, conventions and the everything else they host. Even if there was an interested group at any level, I doubt TUC would even give them a lease as there are more profitable events to host.
> 
> San Antonio: the one possible owner just proved that they are uninterested in minor pro hockey.



It doesn't seem like the kids of Peter Holt who run the spurs are interested in operating anything other than the arena and the NBA team and maybe the G League team in Austin. I would not be surprised if they put San Antonio FC on the market.


----------



## JMCx4

Cyclones Rock said:


> Heritage Bank Center (nee US Bank Arena nee The Crown nee Riverfront Coliseum) seats 16k.



BOK Center-Tulsa seats 17,096 for hockey. All a matter of what you consider success for an ECHL team.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

ECHL Teams Considering the COVID Crossover to the NAHL?
saw this article and looks pretty alarming anyone knows if their is any truth to this or is this just crazy talk


----------



## 210

hurricanesfan123 said:


> ECHL Teams Considering the COVID Crossover to the NAHL?
> say this article and looks pretty alarming anyone knows if their is any truth to this or is this just crazy talk




Google the writer's name and the word "hockey". That will tell you all you need to know about that article.


----------



## JDogindy

hurricanesfan123 said:


> ECHL Teams Considering the COVID Crossover to the NAHL?
> saw this article and looks pretty alarming anyone knows if their is any truth to this or is this just crazy talk




Throwing fec... um, darts at the wall and hoping it'll stick is the writer's philosophy. "Yeah, these teams went down to the NAHL, so certainly these other teams should consider it! Yeah, that's journalism!"


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

hurricanesfan123 said:


> ECHL Teams Considering the COVID Crossover to the NAHL?
> saw this article and looks pretty alarming anyone knows if their is any truth to this or is this just crazy talk




To put it nicely and plainly, it is a writer and website that is unreliable. I would say look up his role in the USACHL debacle, but his involvement was entirely deleted once his reputation started going further down the drain.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

hurricanesfan123 said:


> ECHL Teams Considering the COVID Crossover to the NAHL?
> saw this article and looks pretty alarming anyone knows if their is any truth to this or is this just crazy talk




Somehow or another I think that the Hunts-who own Kansas City-can weather this lock down storm.


----------



## JMCx4

hurricanesfan123 said:


> ECHL Teams Considering the COVID Crossover to the NAHL?
> saw this article and looks pretty alarming anyone knows if their is any truth to this or is this just crazy talk



^^^^ What @210 and @Barclay Donaldson said. Times 1 million.


----------



## wildcat48

hurricanesfan123 said:


> ECHL Teams Considering the COVID Crossover to the NAHL?
> saw this article and looks pretty alarming anyone knows if their is any truth to this or is this just crazy talk




What a Bulls**t article especially when he began throw politics into the mix. We have enough political stress on a daily basis we don't need it in added into hockey coverage because he's looking to throw s*** against the wall to see what sticks.

So yeah what @210 and @Barclay Donaldson said


----------



## crimsonace

General rule to follow with online "articles." 

If it's not a reliable source of information (THN or a newspaper/TV/radio station) and/or if nobody is quoted in the story - whether directly or indirectly - it's likely message board speculation posing as news.


----------



## JMCx4

crimsonace said:


> General rule to follow with online "articles."
> 
> If it's not a reliable source of information (THN or a newspaper/TV/radio station) and/or if nobody is quoted in the story - whether directly or indirectly - it's likely message board speculation posing as news.



General Rule #2: If the title has a question mark in it, there oughta be a reader poll involved to at least make it interesting.


----------



## 210

crimsonace said:


> General rule to follow with online "articles."
> 
> If it's not a reliable source of information (THN or a newspaper/TV/radio station) and/or if nobody is quoted in the story - whether directly or indirectly - it's likely message board speculation posing as news.




You also have to weight how outlandish the article is...


----------



## Centrum Hockey




----------



## hurricanesfan123

Centrum Hockey said:


>




and how reliable is this @Centrum Hockey I cant believe both would go there. Plus Manchester better get on the ball for 2021-22 the ball is moving for trois riveries


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Centrum Hockey said:


>




if manchester goes join for 21-22 they would need a owner this summer right??? as deadline is only in December. nothing reliable has said manchester is coming back


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Saw the same tweet..... Divver clarified the tweet..... the affiliation with Boston remains in Atlanta ...


----------



## Centrum Hockey

hurricanesfan123 said:


> if manchester goes join for 21-22 they would need a owner this summer right??? as deadline is only in December. nothing reliable has said manchester is coming back



Mark Divver is a very respected reporter who has covered the p-bruins for years.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

looks like he reliable but still nothing. "official " don't see how they can get a team in such a short time


----------



## Centrum Hockey

hurricanesfan123 said:


> looks like he reliable but still nothing. "official " don't see how they can get a team in such a short time



His tweet doesn’t point to anything official all it’s does is confirm what people like @210 have been saying. That there are Owners interested in a potential Manchester expansion team.


----------



## 210

There are people doubting Mark Divver? Seriously?


----------



## 210

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> Saw the same tweet..... Divver clarified the tweet..... the affiliation with Boston remains in Atlanta ...




No, he didn't, as there was nothing to clarify. He added a second piece of related information.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

210 said:


> No, he didn't, as there was nothing to clarify. He added a second piece of related information.



which means absolutely nothing, because you need both to survive or in this case restart a franchise...... when was the last time the ECHL held an update about Manchester other than terminating the original franchise in 2019, Darryl..... it is highly doubtful or downright illegal to talk league business outside of league parameters, much less an application process

again, nothing has changed on Manchester until there's a credible ownership group, otherwise it's a non-starter...... even Crelin has admitted that to a fault


----------



## 210

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> which means absolutely nothing, because you need both to survive or in this case restart a franchise...... when was the last time the ECHL held an update about Manchester other than terminating the original franchise in 2019, Darryl..... it is highly doubtful or downright illegal to talk league business outside of league parameters, much less an application process
> 
> again, nothing has changed on Manchester until there's a credible ownership group, otherwise it's a non-starter...... even Crelin has admitted that to a fault



What does any of that have to do with what I posted or Divver tweeted?


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

210 said:


> What does any of that have to do with what I posted or Divver tweeted?



the point is.... where's the confirmation..... why should we believe anyone who posts, credible or not..... there's no truth to Manchester coming back and even if there was why now in the midst of a pandemic....


----------



## Centrum Hockey

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> the point is.... where's the confirmation..... why should we believe anyone who posts, credible or not..... there's no truth to Manchester coming back and even if there was why now in the midst of a pandemic....



All divver said was he has heard of interest In starting a expansion team in Manchester. He didn’t say a team will begin play in 2021 with a bruins affiliation like you think he did.


----------



## 210

Centrum Hockey said:


> All divver said was he has heard of interest In starting a expansion team in Manchester. He didn’t say a team will begin play in 2021 with a bruins affiliation like you think he did.




Yep. What Divver tweeted was clear and concise.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

210 said:


> Yep. What Divver tweeted was clear and concise.




He is just upset it would probably be an expansion team, which would mean he couldn't randomly bring up their irrelevant franchise history.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Barclay Donaldson said:


> He is just upset it would probably be an expansion team, which would mean he couldn't randomly bring up their irrelevant franchise history.



He will probably try to argue that any potential new team shares the monarchs history if they hire former monarchs staff members.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Centrum Hockey said:


> All divver said was he has heard of interest In starting a expansion team in Manchester. He didn’t say a team will begin play in 2021 with a bruins affiliation like you think he did.



nope I'm not the one posting wild rumors.... YOU DID, Centrum why do you think 2 posters called you out on it, when there's been no credible discussion on it


----------



## 210

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> nope I'm not the one posting wild rumors.... YOU DID, Centrum why do you think 2 posters called you out on it, when there's been no credible discussion on it




He didn't post a wild rumor. He posted a tweet from a highly respected hockey writer.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

210 said:


> He didn't post a wild rumor. He posted a tweet from a highly respected hockey writer.



and then was called out by multiple posters, Darryl..... same thing a respected journalist wouldn't be doing until there was CONCRETE evidence or chatter..... I'd tend to believe you if you were the one posting it....


----------



## 210

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> and then was called out by multiple posters, Darryl..... same thing a respected journalist wouldn't be doing until there was CONCRETE evidence or chatter..... I'd tend to believe you if you were the one posting it....




One person asked if Divver was credible. Pretty much nothing you've asserted in this thread since Centrum posted the tweet has been accurate. 

Please remember, all the posts are still visible, so you can easily go back and review what's been posted.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Not my intention to get Hutch going didn't know who this author was at that time.


----------



## 210

hurricanesfan123 said:


> Not my intention to get Hutch going didn't know who this author was at that time.




No worries. You asked a legitimate question.


----------



## wildcat48

Mark Divver is one of the most respected writers in New England as well as hockey. I was a sports writer for more than 10 years and I can tell you he was extremely respected.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

210 said:


> Yep. What Divver tweeted was clear and concise.



Totally off topic.

Listened to the first 15 minutes of your episode 2. Good stuff! 

I had never heard of candlepin bowling (midwesterner). Went to you tube and saw a video of it. Would love to try it.

I had forgotten about or never knew that Ken Dryden was a Bruin. Yes, that was a miserable trade. LOL.

Good luck to you on your podcast! Here's a link for others to listen:

Nothing But Shenanigans Podcast


----------



## CANADIENSFAN90

i want manchester hockey back


----------



## 210

Cyclones Rock said:


> Totally off topic.
> 
> Listened to the first 15 minutes of your episode 2. Good stuff!
> 
> I had never heard of candlepin bowling (midwesterner). Went to you tube and saw a video of it. Would love to try it.
> 
> I had forgotten about or never knew that Ken Dryden was a Bruin. Yes, that was a miserable trade. LOL.
> 
> Good luck to you on your podcast! Here's a link for others to listen:
> 
> Nothing But Shenanigans Podcast




Wow, thanks for listening...it's really just me and my buddy Paul doing what we'd usually be doing if we were able to sit on barstools and have a few beers. Using Zoom right now, but might step it up in the future.


----------



## 210

CANADIENSFAN90 said:


> i want manchester hockey back



Trust me, so do the Railers and Mariners.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

CANADIENSFAN90 said:


> i want manchester hockey back




That’s what people in Manchester were saying when they still had an ECHL team.


----------



## 210

Barclay Donaldson said:


> That’s what people in Manchester were saying when they still had an ECHL team.



Which is too bad, because they had a really good team there.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

210 said:


> Which is too bad, because they had a really good team there.




While I do feel bad the market and fans had the blunt end of the stick given to them from Los Angeles, team interest also dropped off because they felt they deserved better than the ECHL. The ECHL Monarchs were one of the better teams in the league and were annually primed for a playoff run.

Let's see if these faint rumblings of interest bring about an ownership group that can rehash some of the interest in the Granite State and have anywhere near the same amount of on-ice success. If nothing comes of these faint rumblings, they aren't the first and won't be the last market that used to host hockey.


----------



## 210

Barclay Donaldson said:


> While I do feel bad the market and fans had the blunt end of the stick given to them from Los Angeles, team interest also dropped off because they felt they deserved better than the ECHL. The ECHL Monarchs were one of the better teams in the league and were annually primed for a playoff run.
> 
> Let's see if these faint rumblings of interest bring about an ownership group that can rehash some of the interest in the Granite State and have anywhere near the same amount of on-ice success. If nothing comes of these faint rumblings, they aren't the first and won't be the last market that used to host hockey.




Some fans thought that of the ECHL, but that was far from the biggest problem they faced up there. A local owner and a team not named "Monarchs" will be a huge step in the right direction.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

210 said:


> Some fans thought that of the ECHL, but that was far from the biggest problem they faced up there. A local owner and a team not named "Monarchs" will be a huge step in the right direction.




If a new team does come to Manchester, it would be very wise of ownership of that team to consult the management of the Cincinnati Cyclones. The once thriving Cyclones franchise went into suspension for two years and came back with a thud. But the team ownership had a committed business plan and they stuck to it and made one huge adjustment which allowed the team to survive. When the AHL Ducks and IHL/ECHL Cyclones went head-to-head for 7 years, tickets had been comped to such a level that people weren't willing to pay very much for the product anymore. The Cyclones recognized that in year 2 of their comeback and made the appropriate pricing adjustments.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Cyclones Rock said:


> If a new team does come to Manchester, it would be very wise of ownership of that team to consult the management of the Cincinnati Cyclones. The once thriving Cyclones franchise went into suspension for two years and came back with a thud. But the team ownership had a committed business plan and they stuck to it and made one huge adjustment which allowed the team to survive. When the AHL Ducks and IHL/ECHL Cyclones went head-to-head for 7 years, tickets had been comped to such a level that people weren't willing to pay very much for the product anymore. The Cyclones recognized that in year 2 of their comeback and made the appropriate pricing adjustments.



The biggest problem from the late monarchs era seemed to be the lack of respect for the fanbase from owners/management. Hopefully any new team there will have heavy community involvement.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Im pretty sure maine announced their team in summer of 2017 im guessing @wildcat48 can confirm that
Newfoundland i am fairy sure announced theirs in spring or summer as well
So I'm assuming that if Manchester wants something for 2021-22 this summer will determine if that "interest" materializes the same can be said for trois riveries as well.
If i am off on this which I admit I could be let me know.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> Im pretty sure maine announced their team in summer of 2017 im guess @wildcat48 can confirm that
> Newfoundland i am fairy sure announced theirs in spring or summer as well
> So I'm assuming that if Manchester wants something for 2021-22 this summer will determine if that "interest" materializes



Maine is not an expansion team by definition, Spectra acquired via a transfer of territory, the Alaska franchise.... it was 2018, not 2017, the team was established...... Newfoundland and Worcester are true expansion processes that took 2 years in both cases from initial discussion to actual awarding of the franchise (expansion fee and all)

Manchester has shown no interest in returning.... because that hope was there once PPI technically destroyed what that franchise had been.... AEG and the Kings were committed as an affiliate only..... same thing you're seeing both Portland and Worcester had to adjust to after being corporate-controlled, for lack of a better analogy.....in Worcester's case notably San Jose made those calls.... the last decade+ BEFORE leaving for San Jose.... now the Railers are privately owned, something that has been a struggle in Portland financially, as we've been privately owned up to 2018...

remember the whole issue over the Q coming to Manchester, which then suggested Portland or a few others as an option/opinion piece.... it was done... wasn't an option, hurricanesfan.... because it had been done for 8 years in Lewiston... same ownership albeit minority ownership in operations that Chicago has... notably Wendell Young was involved in that ownership here locally....


----------



## hurricanesfan123

all i was asking is if something was to happen for manchester 2021-22 a decision/commitment would have to be made this summer......... And what do you mean manchester has shown no interest in returning have you not been reading this thread. All i want is for someone to answer my simple question.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

hurricanesfan123 said:


> Im pretty sure maine announced their team in summer of 2017 im guessing @wildcat48 can confirm that
> Newfoundland i am fairy sure announced theirs in spring or summer as well
> So I'm assuming that if Manchester wants something for 2021-22 this summer will determine if that "interest" materializes the same can be said for trois riveries as well.
> If i am off on this which I admit I could be let me know.




Trois-Rivières just needs permission from the city/arena and they have a team. They have been in constant contact with the ECHL, they have branding, marketing, everything done, they just need city permission and a lease before they are off the ground with a franchise. Manchester has the potential for faint rumblings in the ground. That is not a professed and publicized ownership group with valid interest, marketing plans, publicized contact with the league. Manchester and Trois-Rivières are at two entirely different points in being permitted a franchise.

The expansion process needs to be finished by December, that's the deadline. An ownership group usually has their act together and starts negotiating a potential lease deal, marketing, branding, all that staff in the summer. They can get it done quickly in the fall, but it is difficult.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Trois-Rivières just needs permission from the city/arena and they have a team. They have been in constant contact with the ECHL, they have branding, marketing, everything done, they just need city permission and a lease before they are off the ground with a franchise. Manchester has the potential for faint rumblings in the ground. That is not a professed and publicized ownership group with valid interest, marketing plans, publicized contact with the league. Manchester and Trois-Rivières are at two entirely different points in being permitted a franchise.
> 
> The expansion process needs to be finished by December, that's the deadline. An ownership group usually has their act together and starts negotiating a potential lease deal, marketing, branding, all that staff in the summer. They can get it done quickly in the fall, but it is difficult.



ah thank you. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. But to see such a difference with both markets that are trying to launch in the same year. Yikes! Seems like a stretch for Manchester but hopefully they can work something out. Not a lot of time when someone isn't even on board yet.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> all i was asking is if something was to happen for manchester 2021-22 a decision/commitment would have to be made this summer......... And what do you mean manchester has shown no interest in returning have you not been reading this thread. All i want is for someone to answer my simple question.



that question has been asked ever since 2019, when the league found no takers and elected to terminate the original Manchester franchise..... where's the owner, hurricanesfan.... like what Spectra, Cliff Rucker and Dean MacDonald accomplished to restart or are in active discussions now.... Portland, Worcester, Newfoundland, and Trois-Rivieres the league isn't actively pursuing anything in the midst of the pandemic..... that's the 1st thing.... 2nd thing.... how much damage did the original franchise do between switching leagues, and is there a fanbase large enough to not repeat what occurred financially to restart and/or sustain a franchise knowing you're spending at minimum at least 600 M to start engaging the league to their timeframe of December, even for 2021/22, that's not realistic or likely to prevent the same thing from repeating itself..... it's like any market or fanbase that loses a team, why was the decision made to pull the franchise, whether it was bad or at times inept ownership, violation of league bylaws or leveraging a franchise for illicit gains (Iowa Chops-AHL comes to mind in that case), etc..... it's not that Manchester is a "torched market", BUT sometimes it happens..... no matter if there's a fanbase that keeps getting their hopes up and dashed over and over.....

Lowell ended up that way as an example.....U MASS Lowell wanted their team to be exclusive, the pro team was sacrificed, AND No league has ever reentered that market.

that's the downside of being a fan of a given team in a given sport..... the business side of it.... eventually,wins out...no matter how it is spun..... when you go through multiples of these "business" DEALINGS it turns you off from what you grew to enjoy or watch that team or fanbase succeed..... half of the Monarchs fanbase blamed AEG/LA Kings, THEN PPI destroyed what remained to rescue the market because they had no clue how to run or market a pro franchise.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> that question has been asked ever since 2019, when the league found no takers and elected to terminate the original Manchester franchise..... where's the owner, hurricanesfan.... like what Spectra, Cliff Rucker and Dean MacDonald accomplished to restart or are in active discussions now.... Portland, Worcester, Newfoundland, and Trois-Rivieres the league isn't actively pursuing anything in the midst of the pandemic..... that's the 1st thing.... 2nd thing.... how much damage did the original franchise do between switching leagues, and is there a fanbase large enough to not repeat what occurred financially to restart and/or sustain a franchise knowing you're spending at minimum at least 600 M to start engaging the league to their timeframe of December, even for 2021/22, that's not realistic or likely to prevent the same thing from repeating itself..... it's like any market or fanbase that loses a team, why was the decision made to pull the franchise, whether it was bad or at times inept ownership, violation of league bylaws or leveraging a franchise for illicit gains (Iowa Chops-AHL comes to mind in that case), etc..... it's not that Manchester is a "torched market", BUT sometimes it happens..... no matter if there's a fanbase that keeps getting their hopes up and dashed over and over.....
> 
> Lowell ended up that way as an example.....U MASS Lowell wanted their team to be exclusive, the pro team was sacrificed, AND No league has ever reentered that market.
> 
> that's the downside of being a fan of a given team in a given sport..... the business side of it.... eventually,wins out...no matter how it is spun..... when you go through multiples of these "business" DEALINGS it turns you off from what you grew to enjoy or watch that team or fanbase succeed..... half of the Monarchs fanbase blamed AEG/LA Kings, THEN PPI destroyed what remained to rescue the market because they had no clue how to run or market a pro franchise.




three things
1 i dont think manchester is comparable to Lowell
2 second what do you mean 600m by December haha
3 there is interest in manchester just read the thread!
again all i was asking is for manchester to join in 2021-22 they would have to have a plan/commitment by this summer it just seems like a stretch 
If these interest rumblings happened a while ago the timeline would look more realistic for 2021. As said before trois riveries and manchester are on two different plants as far as progress both with the same goal


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> three things
> 1 i dont think manchester is comparable to Lowell
> 2 second what do you mean 600m by December haha
> 3 there is interest in manchester just read the thread!
> again all i was asking is for manchester to join in 2021-22 they would have to have a plan/commitment by this summer it just seems like a stretch
> If these interest rumblings happened a while ago the timeline would look more realistic for 2021. As said before trois riveries and manchester are on two different plants as far as progress both with the same goal




LOWELL has not had pro hockey since the RIVERHAWKS exercised their exclusivity to Tsongas Center, no league has entered that market since that exclusivity was declared.....

no, there has been no interest in Manchester returning since 2019, when the league terminated the original franchise.....and especially not coming off of or out of a pandemic....


----------



## hurricanesfan123

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> no, there has been no interest in Manchester returning since 2019, when the league terminated the original franchise.....and especially not coming off of or out of a pandemic....



at this point its just a waste of time I've made my point


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

hurricanesfan123 said:


> ah thank you. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. But to see such a difference with both markets that are trying to launch in the same year. Yikes! Seems like a stretch for Manchester but hopefully they can work something out. Not a lot of time when someone isn't even on board yet.




And to be fair, it is likely Trois-Rivières is a more worthy guarantee of a market than Manchester in the eyes of the ECHL. The ECHL doesn't have to grant an expansion team to anybody. But it is much easier for them to grant Trois-Rivières an expansion team when they have been in constant contact with the league, the owner is already a established owner in the league, they would be affiliated with the fanatically popular Canadiens, and the only thing they have to do is work out a lease with the city.

Manchester on the other hand has the possibility of faint rumblings. It is a market that was royally screwed by the previous team, there has been vocal wonders, perhaps from a minority, they feel the market deserves more than the ECHL, and there is no guarantee of an affiliation that would make the team successful.


----------



## gstommylee

The only way i can really see that many teams or 3 way system NHL-AHL-ECHL if NHL would basically own the ECHL teams. Not sure there would be enough support for 32 ECHL team with out being subsidized by the NHL.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

gstommylee said:


> The only way i can really see that many teams or 3 way system NHL-AHL-ECHL if NHL would basically own the ECHL teams. Not sure there would be enough support for 32 ECHL team with out being subsidized by the NHL.



There is no point for a NHL owner to invest in a echl team unless they want the arena for their AHL team. Owning a echl team would add extra expenses to develop goalies and AHL 4th linemen it’s not exactly worth it from a team building perspective.


----------



## gstommylee

Centrum Hockey said:


> There is no point for a NHL owner to invest in a echl team unless they want the arena for their AHL team. Owning a echl team would add extra expenses to develop goalies and AHL 4th linemen it’s not exactly worth it from a team building perspective.




Then the idea of having that many ECHL teams isn't going to work if the market they are in isn't providing enough support for the team to last.


----------



## 210

gstommylee said:


> Then the idea of having that many ECHL teams isn't going to work if the market they are in isn't providing enough support for the team to last.




Ummm....yeah....no kidding. That's true of every minor league sports team no matter the league.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> at this point its just a waste of time I've made my point




NAHL is the same interest or area that the LaPresse article opinion piece was....it doesn't solve the issues as to why Manchester collapsed the way it did, Hurricanes..... you don't have the issues that piece pointed out as options....none of which happened.....the closest market size to Manchester is Lewiston.....you won't have Worcester or Portland, or even Newfoundland to draw interest from


----------



## hurricanesfan123

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> NAHL is the same interest or area that the LaPresse article opinion piece was....it doesn't solve the issues as to why Manchester collapsed the way it did, Hurricanes..... you don't have the issues that piece pointed out as options....none of which happened.....the closest market size to Manchester is Lewiston.....you won't have Worcester or Portland, or even Newfoundland to draw interest from



i am fairly sure the nahl wouldn't replace the echl or even compete with it really..... The danbury jr hat tricks in the nahl dont compete with the fhl team.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

why would you say manchester is like Lewiston. Look all it was is a tweet saying there could be something building for echl 2021-22 just take that it as it is.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> nahl wouldn't replace the echl or even compete with it really..... The danbury jr hat tricks in the nahl dont compete with the fhl team.



you don't understand the NAHL... then....


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> why would you say manchester is like Lewiston. Look all it was is a tweet saying there could be something building for echl 2021-22 just that it as it is.



and Black & Gold is an opinion piece, just as much as the La Presse opinion piece was..... the other issue is how or what replaces the ECHL in Gwinnett/Atlanta.....


----------



## hurricanesfan123

the la presse article said they had contact that's not a opinion that's a fact...... regardless that has no effect on echl expansion since it appears the q moved on


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> the la presse article said they had contact ......



it also stated two additional teams, including 2 in Maine.... there weren't and aren't any arenas or sites available here for the Q, after what transpired in 2008-09, the termination of the Q franchise.... that's why Spectra landed the ECHL Team in Portland.... and why the NAHL is in the Colisee, just like it was back in the mid 1970s... before Spectra brought the AHL to Cross Arena.... the Original NAHL Nordiques had the affiliation with Quebec (Colorado)


----------



## Big Z Man 1990

Albany, NY originally rejected the ECHL in favor of an arena football team. But now that team is gone too. I think Albany will get into the ECHL real soon, not next year but the year after that.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Big Z Man 1990 said:


> Albany, NY originally rejected the ECHL in favor of an arena football team. But now that team is gone too. I think Albany will get into the ECHL real soon, not next year but the year after that.



nothing has changed in Albany....Z, Times Union Center barred the door once the Devils left for Binghamton, in fact, Adirondack, is the franchise aligned with Binghamton/NJ


----------



## hurricanesfan123

i am guessing its to close to Glenn falls


----------



## 210

hurricanesfan123 said:


> i am guessing its to close to Glenn falls




They each had teams in the AHL at the same time...I think Adirondack would welcome a team in Albany.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

210 said:


> They each had teams in the AHL at the same time...I think Adirondack would welcome a team in Albany.



not with the Devils affiliate.... Darryl.... you'll lose Adirondack most likely.... again..... not likely is Times Union Center open to entertain that possibility... otherwise wouldn't Albany have replaced the Thunder in that scenario.... they're drawing from both markets without the hassle


----------



## hurricanesfan123

210 said:


> They each had teams in the AHL at the same time...I think Adirondack would welcome a team in Albany.



not from the area i didn't know if there would be a territory agrument


----------



## hurricanesfan123

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> not with the Devils affiliate.... Darryl.... you'll lose Adirondack most likely.... again..... not likely is Times Union Center open to entertain that possibility... otherwise wouldn't Albany have replaced the Thunder in that scenario.... they're drawing from both markets without the hassle



they dont even have a owner or plan and your talking about affilating with the devils why?
its just speculation


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> not from the area i didn't know if there would be a territory agrument



not a territorial agreement....it's just the same thing that Manchester among others are facing.... it's the current state of where the sport and league are.....and they simply at the T-U-Center chose not to have a hockey tenant....I don't know where these rumors are coming from but they're simply not based in fact.....

Kansas City is the same way.... Sprint Center chose they can survive without a major tenant but every so often you see that market pop up rumor-wise..... same with Quebec City, Houston, to name two others..... it all comes down to do those markets grow the sport without endangering the existing franchises.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> they dont even have a owner or plan and your talking about affilating with the devils why?
> its just speculation



Adirondack is already affiliated with New Jersey, Binghamton is owned by New Jersey and leased to the operator there who operates the franchise, hurricanes


----------



## hurricanesfan123

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> not a territorial agreement....it's just the same thing that Manchester among others are facing.... it's the current state of where the sport and league are.....and they simply at the T-U-Center chose not to have a hockey tenant....I don't know where these rumors are coming from but they're simply not based in fact.....
> 
> Kansas City is the same way.... Sprint Center chose they can survive without a major tenant but every so often you see that market pop up rumor-wise..... same with Quebec City, Houston, to name two others..... it all comes down to do those markets grow the sport without endangering the existing franchises.



but manchester isn't a rumor anymore there's interest but not ownership confirmed yet. Thats what your not getting


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> but manchester isn't a rumor anymore there's interest but not ownership confirmed yet



we're not talking Manchester... Albany was somehow brought up


----------



## hurricanesfan123

ok someone asked about albany and you compared it to manchester


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> ok someone asked about albany and you compared it to manchester



because That was the decision made by the arena.....there has been no chatter no discussion ever about Albany ever joining the ECHL..... after the transfer of the Devils affiliation to Binghamton..... otherwise, Binghamton has no hockey once Ottawa made their decision to move from Binghamton to Belleville, WHICH has nothing to do with the ECHL...


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

hurricanesfan123 said:


> i am fairly sure the nahl wouldn't replace the echl or even compete with it really..... The danbury jr hat tricks in the nahl dont compete with the fhl team.




To be fair:

-There are a bunch of NAHL markets that could be decent ECHL markets. 

-NAHL Danbury hasn’t played a game yet and they’re certainly selling it like they’re going to be competing with the FPHL team for fans, so I wouldn’t be entirely sure about that.


----------



## Ratitude

As an Albanian I can definitely add some insight. There is no conventional wisdom when it comes to the Capital Region sports landscape. Its filled with minor league disasters, failures, and success stories. It's crazy Albany can pretty much rival any American city when it comes to the Arena Football League lol, but that league is gone.

Another success story is the NY-Penn League's Tri-City Valleycats short season class A ball.

Hockey is complicated because teams from Glens Fall to Troy to Albany have all come and gone. Some epic disasters but teams like the Adirondack Red Wings and Albany River Rats have coexisted and have shared success from 1980s through much of the 1990s. 

The Devils really ruined the market, but the market was also changed from the days of the Rats. UAlbany became a D1 basketball program and Union College's DI hockey program has really risen to be able to compete at the national level.

Adirondack has really embraced its ECHL team. The ownership group is local and they also operate the arena so its a successful model. Hockey fans from the immediate Albany area have shed no tears when the Devils pulled their AHL club, I know I certainly didn't. I miss seeing Rochester, Hartford, and games against Utica which was a good developing rivalry.

I think many local fans have respect for what they have built in Glens Falls. Its still affiliated hockey, some really skilled offensive players and solid goaltending. Defensively the ECHL is very weak, and it is an aggravating run and gun style product but nevertheless its still entertaining hockey. I think for hockey to return to Albany it would have to be backed by the Rangers organization or even some affiliations with the Isles or even surprisingly the Bruins as Albany is close to Massachusetts and Southern VT.

Albany is very close to Glens Falls and if two teams couldn't successfully coexist like the Wings & Rats once did I can't see Albany County trying to hurt what Glens Falls has. I think a Rangers affiliate may change that but have my reservations. Albany recently has put in a bid to host NLL neutral site games so what lies ahead is anyone's guess. Until then Albany area hockey fans have solid options nearby. ECHL 50 miles up I-87, or two DI hockey teams with 20 minutes of one another.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Barclay Donaldson said:


> To be fair:
> 
> -There are a bunch of NAHL markets that could be decent ECHL markets.
> 
> -NAHL Danbury hasn’t played a game yet and they’re certainly selling it like they’re going to be competing with the FPHL team for fans, so I wouldn’t be entirely sure about that.



So really it would be one or the other


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> So really it would be one or the other



i believe Ratitude is correct..... although it likely won't be the Rangers affiliation as he has stated.....the only way it might change is Hartford, and that's unlikely the way MSG waltzed in there and after the fallout of losing Worcester, Portland, and then Manchester collapsing the way it did 3 years ago..... Spectra operates both arenas in Portland and Hartford.... they also operate the Pack's business side of operations for MSG, While they operate the entire show in Portland.... just as they intended in 1977... that model has returned once the sponsorship of the arena was sold.... the trustee board that oversaw the leasing of the arena to private ownership...later was abolished and Spectra regained sole rights to the tenant team as well as the arena have been contentious over the years

simply, it was the business decision made in a contract outlined in 2006.... IT just wasn't one thing that forced the AHL out of its three most successful markets, leaving Bridgeport, Hartford, Springfield, and Providence to continue on.... had that not started in 2014/15, it was stated it likely would've by last season or the beginning of this one....


----------



## Ratitude

I think both the AHL and ECHL will have some changes post pandemic. Some markets might succumb to the economics and other markets could return. How the post pandemic minor league landscape ends up it will no doubt affect more then hockey. I am even more concerned with the pandemic should this lawful nonsensical civil unrest continue. Albany on Saturday night had to utilize three different police agencies to keep the arena from being attacked....This no purpose rioting I hope doesn't escalate and prolong the epidemic. One where right here in Albany we were moving in the right direction. We already lost our beloved Walter Robb who owned the River Rats, and William Gladstone who owned the Tri-City Valleycats. Sadly those two men lost to the virus.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Ratitude said:


> I think both the AHL and ECHL will have some changes post pandemic. Some markets might succumb to the economics and other markets could return. How the post pandemic minor league landscape ends up it will no doubt affect more then hockey. I am even more concerned with the pandemic should this lawful nonsensical civil unrest continue. Albany on Saturday night had to utilize three different police agencies to keep the arena from being attacked....This no purpose rioting I hope doesn't escalate and prolong the epidemic. One where right here in Albany we were moving in the right direction. We already lost our beloved Walter Robb who owned the River Rats, and William Gladstone who owned the Tri-City Valleycats. Sadly those two men lost to the virus.



its sad times indeed


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Ratitude said:


> I think both the AHL and ECHL will have some changes post pandemic. Some markets might succumb to the economics and other markets could return. How the post pandemic minor league landscape ends up it will no doubt affect more then hockey. I am even more concerned with the pandemic should this lawful nonsensical civil unrest continue. Albany on Saturday night had to utilize three different police agencies to keep the arena from being attacked....This no purpose rioting I hope doesn't escalate and prolong the epidemic. One where right here in Albany we were moving in the right direction. We already lost our beloved Walter Robb who owned the River Rats, and William Gladstone who owned the Tri-City Valleycats. Sadly those two men lost to the virus.



I still remember Al Lawrence as well as being part of that group that helped facilitate the transfer of the CD Islanders into THE Rats AND the switch from RPI to the then Knickerbocker now T-U Center


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

hurricanesfan123 said:


> So really it would be one or the other




Not at all. They're doing both. They believe the market can support both if they're both properly marketed for the long-term. It looks like they did their feasibility research and have the money to back it up.


----------



## 210

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> not with the Devils affiliate.... Darryl.... you'll lose Adirondack most likely.... again..... not likely is Times Union Center open to entertain that possibility... otherwise wouldn't Albany have replaced the Thunder in that scenario.... they're drawing from both markets without the hassle




If Glens Falls and Albany can co-exist in the AHL, they can do it in the ECHL. The affiliations don't matter. I do agree the Times Union Center is unlikely to be interested in an ECHL team anyway.


----------



## 210

hurricanesfan123 said:


> not from the area i didn't know if there would be a territory agrument




I'm positive the parties would work it out.


----------



## Ratitude

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> I still remember Al Lawrence as well as being part of that group that helped facilitate the transfer of the CD Islanders into THE Rats AND the switch from RPI to the then Knickerbocker now T-U Center




The good old RPI's Houston Field House, still a very fun place to catch a game. The lightning has been upgraded, scoreboard, glass but has that old hanger style arena feel. Saw alot of rock concerts there in the 80s lol. Ratt, Winger, Cinderella, Great White, Poison, ohhh no I am aging myself!


----------



## Big Z Man 1990

210 said:


> If Glens Falls and Albany can co-exist in the AHL, they can do it in the ECHL. The affiliations don't matter. I do agree the Times Union Center is unlikely to be interested in an ECHL team anyway.




They're in need in some kind of tenant. As I said, they just lost their arena football team (I think the Arena Football League, which I had such high hopes for at one point, never truly recovered from their first bankruptcy which occurred after the recession of that era; I think that if there had been no recession then, the AFL would not only still exist, but it would be *thriving*). TUC will take anything at this point. The loss of AFL hurts even more considering the Empire were the league's last champions.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Big Z Man 1990 said:


> They're in need in some kind of tenant. As I said, they just lost their arena football team (I think the Arena Football League, which I had such high hopes for at one point, never truly recovered from their first bankruptcy which occurred after the recession of that era; I think that if there had been no recession then, the AFL would not only still exist, but it would be *thriving*). TUC will take anything at this point. The loss of AFL hurts even more considering the Empire were the league's last champions.




Entirely wrong. Times Union Center has plenty going on that they don't need a hockey tenant. They have a full-time and very successful tenant in Siena basketball. They host every single major high school championship tournament for all three athletic seasons. They have always had a packed schedule as a concert venue as well. They regularly host weekend-long conventions and exhibitions. They actually said at one point when a group was looking at the feasibility of an ECHL team that they don't need pro hockey, and it would be unprofitable for them to have one as not only did they not make money off the events but booking those events took away from their other, very profitable events. They won't "take anything at this point." Much like the Sprint Center in Kansas City, there is more than enough to go around without needing a pro team.


----------



## Ratitude

Big Z Man 1990 said:


> They're in need in some kind of tenant. As I said, they just lost their arena football team (I think the Arena Football League, which I had such high hopes for at one point, never truly recovered from their first bankruptcy which occurred after the recession of that era; I think that if there had been no recession then, the AFL would not only still exist, but it would be *thriving*). TUC will take anything at this point. The loss of AFL hurts even more considering the Empire were the league's last champions.




I agree the arena would like a tenant to compliment the Siena College DI basketball program but the arena certainly isn't desperate to take anything they can get. The county who owns the building and the arena management don't want to make the mistake of putting just any team in the building. The arena and county could have easily considered of trying to establish an Albany Empire team in the Indoor Football League or National Arena League but they were smart not to do so out of desperation.

Albany's location, arena location, and even though its too big for an area this size the arena attracts very good concerts, NCAA regionals, and high school tournaments. As someone who lives 10 minutes from the arena and would love having hockey back I would hate to see the arena rush to just put anything in the building. Also I do have a soft spot for Adirondack hockey. I attend ECHL games up there several times per season and love what they built up there.

The A-Devils were a crappy run organization, they had a true disconnect with us locals lol. When the A-Devils arrived they actually turned down former River Rats owner Walter Robb's offer to the team to use the River Rats name and logo. Second the first few years they actually played 4 home games each season in Atlantic City of all places, not even in Newark of all places. Lastly, the Devils organization made sure every Saturday home games were all played at 5pm, not the league wide usual of 7pm. Many fans expressed their displeasure, the complaints were met with deaf ears. That means if you wanted to have dinner before the game you basically had to eat around 3pm to have enough time to get in the building for 5pm puck drops. Not one or two games per season but EVERY Saturday home games...Newark was all about development, definitely didn't care whether the fans or those looking for fun time out in Albany were happy or not lol.


----------



## sabremike

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Not at all. They're doing both. They believe the market can support both if they're both properly marketed for the long-term. It looks like they did their feasibility research and have the money to back it up.



Living here I am still of the opinion that the NAHL team is going to fail pretty bad. People here will only support a pro team (and yes, I know that the FPHL is really semi-pro but that's still good enough).


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

sabremike said:


> Living here I am still of the opinion that the NAHL team is going to fail pretty bad. People here will only support a pro team (and yes, I know that the FPHL is really semi-pro but that's still good enough).




I think they might do a "Buy STH for the FPHL and get NAHL STH at a steep discount." There are plenty of markets that do some sort of version of that. Utica College and Utica Comets have successfully done that for years. Huntsville Havoc and UAH did that at one point in time but I'm fairly certain they discontinued it. They seem to be fairly confident it can be done and seem to be in it for the long haul. While I am not inclined at all to believe a FPHL marketing plan, they seem to be all in with a decent chunk of change behind the issue.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

Here is a good question do you guys think the ECHL will have problems keeping some of the teams they already have . Do to lack of income from the pandemic do you guys see teams folding doto this or do you think most teams will be ok ?


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> Here is a good question do you guys think the ECHL will have problems keeping some of the teams they already have . Do to lack of income from the pandemic do you guys see teams folding doto this or do you think most teams will be ok ?




it's doubtful you'll see this league or the AHL, for that matter, struggle to survive..... they'll maintain either what they have or being pragmatic in where they go... they wouldn't have done this force majeure provision.... in other words the off season just got moved up.....other than that between surveys by the current teams, the protected list being released now.... unless something major changes between now and opening weekend of 2021-22 season.... wouldn't we hear of existing teams on the brink of suspending or ceasing operations, instead of where T-R is still in active discussions to award them a franchise as an example.... if this were a given "typical" season, most seem to have handled this pandemic as it came.....just as the League made that call to not go back to a ppotential restart date, and as Andrews said focus on the upcoming 2021-2022 season...


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Could New Hampshire Be A Future Home For A Bruins Affiliate?
Here is a good article about the potential of The bruins affiliating with Manchester. A lot of people don't seem to realize that the bruins affiliating with a team in New England will not involve the gladiator's moving.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Centrum Hockey said:


> Could New Hampshire Be A Future Home For A Bruins Affiliate?
> Here is a good article about the potential of The bruins affiliating with Manchester. A lot of people don't seem to realize that the bruins affiliating with a team in New England will not involve the gladiator's moving.



i was asking earlier about manchester or trois riveries and how they would have to have a plan by this summer or fall to enter for the 2021-22 season but I am pretty sure that Newfoundland didnt enter until spring. So isn't it possible manchester especially since it sounds like they dont have a plan yet or trois riveries if they cant get their act together might not by ready until spring 2021 and have a team ready for that October
With ECHL hockey agreement for St. John's all but done, now the real work starts | The Telegram


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> i was asking earlier about manchester or trois riveries and how they would have to have a plan by this summer or fall to enter for the 2021-22 season but I am pretty sure that Newfoundland didnt enter until spring. So isn't it possible manchester especially since it sounds like they dont have a plan yet or trois riveries if they cant get their act together might not by ready until spring 2021 and have a team ready for that October
> With ECHL hockey agreement for St. John's all but done, now the real work starts | The Telegram



Newfoundland started as early as 2016, hurricanesfan.... after Montreal left St. John's for Laval, the intended destination after Quebec crashed in 2002.... it was moved to Hamilton. Mac Donald didn't get approval until 2018

then the side battle between the Growlers, the Edge and SJSE, during the Kelly Cup run over the lease....

Conditional approval by Crelin and the ECHL BOG wasn't granted until January of 2018, to start play in 2018/2019, that's when Deacon/MacDonald struck the deal with bringing back MLSE (THE Leafs, and the rechristened Marlies), WHO had played in that arena until Edmonton lost the lease at RICOH (now Coca-Cola ) Coliseum (The Marlies were the franchise up to 2005 in Newfoundland).

the Growlers began that October of 2018.... Newfoundland is the 1st ECHL Team since 1989/1990(Greensboro) to win a championship in their inaugural season & is the 1st Canadian entry in the ECHL to hold that distinction

Newfoundland Growlers-Wikipedia


----------



## royals119

hurricanesfan123 said:


> i was asking earlier about manchester or trois riveries and how they would have to have a plan by this summer or fall to enter for the 2021-22 season but I am pretty sure that Newfoundland didnt enter until spring. So isn't it possible manchester especially since it sounds like they dont have a plan yet or trois riveries if they cant get their act together might not by ready until spring 2021 and have a team ready for that October
> With ECHL hockey agreement for St. John's all but done, now the real work starts | The Telegram



Typical time to approve a new or relocated franchise is at the league meeting that occurs at the All-Star game. Sometimes that meeting has to be continued via conference call a week or two later because of some delay with a lease or other details. Sometimes those teams start play in October of that year, and sometimes they wait for the following season. Depends on how much they have in place already, number of season ticket commitments, staffing, sponsors, arena availability, etc etc. But in every case the owners had been working on stuff prior the spring. Maybe it wasn't public, but you can't just show up in March and get a team for October. You can get final approval in March (not typical, but possibly that late) and start play in October, but that process would have had to begin much earlier. 

Specifically for Trios-Rivers, they have a good head start on the process, but no lease. It could happen for 2021-2022, but we won't know for a while yet. For Manchester, it is unlikely at this point, but not impossible. If the rumored owner is someone who is already vetted by the league and has been quietly putting things in place, and is close to a lease agreement, it is still possible to get a team for 2021, but that is a lot of ifs.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

[QUOTE. For Manchester, it is unlikely at this point, but not impossible. If the rumored owner is someone who is already vetted by the league and has been quietly putting things in place, and is close to a lease agreement, it is still possible to get a team for 2021, but that is a lot of ifs.[/QUOTE]
I believe @210 said someone is in the vetting process for manchester


----------



## hurricanesfan123

210 said:


> I know it's untrue because I've spoken with the potential owner of a Manchester ECHL franchise on more than a handful of occasions, including just a couple days after the ECHL's all-star break.
> 
> And on top of that, he wasn't the only person that started the ECHL's ownership process with an intent to put a team in Manchester, he's just the only one that made it through the league's vetting process and is actively pursuing it.



here @royals119


----------



## Centrum Hockey

@hurricanesfan123 There needs to be time for the owner to start a season ticket drive, hire staff and build a sponsorship base.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

thats fair really hoping for both i know in trois riveries dean Macdonald has put in a lot of work. also As I've said I think something official should come out by October or the market is off


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> thats fair really hoping for both i know in trois riveries dean Macdonald has put in a lot of work



that's because of what Deacon accomplished in Newfoundland.... that's why T-R has had the chatter, just as Worcester had their own thread Maine had theirs and Newfoundland had their own separate threads


----------



## Ratitude

Manchester really was screwed over. Not so much because of the league swap but how they did it. To disregard the hurt it would cause then try to sell it off as no big change in talent or no difference in skill level was certainly a slap in the face. This is deep in New England, hockey rich and knowledgeable. You might be able to pull this off somewhere else in the country but not in one of New England's larger cities. A new ECHL run would have to involve local ownership along likely with a Bruins affiliation to work. The swap in Adirondack kinda played out better because Glens Falls knew the writing was on the wall. Glens Falls knew older smaller AHL markets were on borrowed time, especially those in the northeast. I think they were also a little more transparent with the Glens Falls swap....They managed to take attendance and build little increases each season, and didn't resort to blowing smoke up anyone rears lol.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

I guess we will see how desperate snhu arena is for hockey  Like I've said if there is no announcement this summer or fall no hockey


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> I guess we will see how desperate Verizon wireless arena is for hockey



SNHU


----------



## 210




----------



## hurricanesfan123

210 said:


>




wow... well to bad for manchester fans but trois riveries was always predicted hopefully things turn around but as summer is going quick and no manchester official words it doesn't look good


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

hurricanesfan123 said:


> wow... well to bad for manchester fans but trois riveries was always predicted hopefully things turn around but as summer is going quick and no manchester official words it doesn't look good




Trois-Rivières is coming into the league for the 2021-22 season. Manchester still has plenty of time to get something together.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

hurricanesfan123 said:


> wow... well to bad for manchester fans but trois riveries was always predicted hopefully things turn around but as summer is going quick and no manchester official words it doesn't look good



Maybe their will be a opportunity for a Manchester owner to buy a team like Brampton and put the franchise into dormancy for a year.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

I guess we will see if nothing is on in the next 2 months roughly I would call manchester off for 2021-22.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Centrum Hockey said:


> Maybe their will be a opportunity for a Manchester owner to buy a team like Brampton and put the franchise into dormancy for a year.



talking about the beast i looked it up and the beast have 6 front office staff now. Their subsidy of Brampton tax money is up as well I believe maybe they should go and try and find a junior team instead


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

hurricanesfan123 said:


> talking about the beast i looked it up and the beast have 6 front office staff now. Their subsidy of Brampton tax money is up as well I believe maybe they should go and try and find a junior team instead




Not happening for a multitude of reasons.

It was already tried. OHL Brampton Battalion were in that facility from 1996-2013. They had the lowest attendance in the OHL for most of their existence despite being fairly good for most of their existence. 

The OHL Mississauga Steelheads are less than 5 miles away on the same road. Mississauga is another team that has always bottom of the OHL in attendance. Both cities having teams again is not going to happen. Too close to each other. Too close to Toronto. Demographics are not ideal either since they are both predominantly first-generation immigrant, to the point where only half of both communities speak English. It is a demographic that is accused by many, perhaps accurately, of not liking hockey, let alone junior hockey.

In addition, the budget of an ECHL team is about the same as the budget of an OHL team. They wouldn't be saving much money, if any, by switching to the OHL.


----------



## battra

hurricanesfan123 said:


> I guess we will see how desperate snhu arena is for hockey  Like I've said if there is no announcement this summer or fall no hockey




SNU SNU?


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

To be honest guys I would be surprised if the ECHL has 10 teams if they cancel the season . Their will be alot of teams that fold .


----------



## 210

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> To be honest guys I would be surprised if the ECHL has 10 teams if they cancel the season . Their will be alot of teams that fold .




Ten teams? I'll take the over.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> To be honest guys I would be surprised if the ECHL has 10 teams if they cancel the season . Their will be alot of teams that fold .



i dont think 16 teams will fold but honestly in the rare rare chance the whole next season is canceled i wouldn't be surprised if 1-4 teams folded


----------



## Atlantian

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> To be honest guys I would be surprised if the ECHL has 10 teams if they cancel the season . Their will be alot of teams that fold .



Is there still the possibility of some teams going dormant for next season? I know there’s have to be a rework of the schedule, but at one point the government of NFLD said they wouldn’t host large events until there was a vaccine.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

do you guys think they would play a season even if some teams cant due to the virus or would they only play with all teams


----------



## hurricanesfan123

wondering if cliff Rucker would be interested in owning a manchester echl team i remember seeing he was considering buying the team back in 2016. Similar to Dean Macdonald maybe


----------



## 210

hurricanesfan123 said:


> *wondering if cliff Rucker would be interested in owning a manchester echl* team i remember seeing he was considering buying the team back in 2016. Similar to Dean Macdonald maybe




As of a few weeks ago, no.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

210 said:


> As of a few weeks ago, no.



figured but wouldn't be surprised if he is used in some way to recruit a new owner


----------



## 210

hurricanesfan123 said:


> figured but wouldn't be surprised if he is used in some way to recruit a new owner




Probably not. I can't imagine why that would even occur.


----------



## Yotesfan97

What do you guys think about this expansion possibly in a few years? Future ECHL Expansion? - Game Changer Sports Network


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Yotesfan97 said:


> What do you guys think about this expansion possibly in a few years? Future ECHL Expansion? - Game Changer Sports Network



Trois-Rivieres, QC: all but confirmed to be joining the league. The ECHL hasn't officially announced, but everyone else has. They aren't much of an expansion target anymore. They are more or less guaranteed to join the league.

Manchester, NH: will likely be tried at some point. Too many reliable sources have hinted at interest in the past and it is too much of a hockey market to not get some ownership group able to get a team. They will likely join the league within the next 5 years.

Elmira, NY: likely are very content in the FPHL. The ECHL Jackals were bleeding money for the second half of their existence, and it wasn't the arena's fault. The arena was a key issue, but they weren't going to last much longer regardless. Elmira thinks a lot like Columbus & Winston-Salem: it is smarter to make money in a lower-level league than fight to break even in a higher league. The chances of them joining the ECHL is very low.

Savannah, GA: pretty much guaranteed a team with the new arena. For both the size of the market and arena, it is likely ECHL. They will likely join the league within the next 5 years.

Iowa City/Coralville, IA: built an arena with the announced intention of it hosting an ECHL or USHL team, but haven't had any sort of talks that we've seen with Trois-Rivières despite the arena opening in September. That is a worrying sign. I think might have gone a bridge too far and might be out of their element simply by the number of full-time tenants they already have. And if they didn't have their act together before, COVID certainly isn't going to help it.

Reno, NV: Hockey at the Reno-Sparks Convention center is a non-starter. 
Pro hockey coming to Reno? Don't expect it anytime soon
Fact check: Is Reno the biggest U.S. city without professional hockey?
Professional Reno Hockey Team Looks Unlikely - Arena Digest
ECHL hockey is not going to Reno.

Fort Worth, TX: Hockey at Dickies Arena is a non-starter. The Fort Worth Rodeo takes up the entire month of January. That is enough to kill it off. Add in the market is saturated with hockey as it is with NHL Dallas, ECHL Allen, and NAHL Lone Star all well under an hour away. Dickies Arena is not very well setup for hockey. Just because they can put an ice plant down doesn't mean it's a hockey arena. There has also been no interested ownership group. They tried garnering interest last year but it fell flat on its face. ECHL hockey is not going to Fort Worth.


----------



## JMCx4

Yotesfan97 said:


> What do you guys think about this expansion possibly in a few years? Future ECHL Expansion? - Game Changer Sports Network



This part of the 2019 interview with Commish Ryan Crelin (the premise of the blogger's post) now reads differently in retrospect ...


> ... the long-term plan is to work toward a model that mirrors the baseball model ...



A model which now features zero minor league play. I'd say the ECHL has achieved that goal.


----------



## Atlantian

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Savannah, GA: pretty much guaranteed a team with the new arena. For both the size of the market and arena, it is likely ECHL. They will likely join the league within the next 5 years.



Glad to hear it. Not too long ago I was called crazy on the board for suggesting ECHL hockey in savannah. It would fit great in the footprint of the current SE division with Jax and Charleston. The arena is average size for ECHL hockey and the city has a decent metro area to pull fans from. Looking forward to see what happens.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Atlantian said:


> Glad to hear it. Not too long ago I was called crazy on the board for suggesting ECHL hockey in savannah. It would fit great in the footprint of the current SE division with Jax and Charleston. The arena is average size for ECHL hockey and the city has a decent metro area to pull fans from. Looking forward to see what happens.




They would be right to call you crazy for suggesting ECHL hockey in Savannah _without_ this arena. And it is still not a guarantee with the arena. They are still a long way away from a team. They still do not have an interested ownership group and market interest is doubtful at best. But they still have a good chance simply because of location, demographics, and the arena. 

The arena looks like it is going to be a 9-10,000 seater, that might actually be too big for the team. It certainly isn't nice when certain teams need to curtain off huge sections of the arena like Jacksonville and Orlando.


----------



## JMCx4

Atlantian said:


> Glad to hear it. Not too long ago I was called crazy on the board for suggesting ECHL hockey in savannah. ...



Well, if it makes you feel better ... You're STILL crazy!


----------



## JMCx4

Barclay Donaldson said:


> ... The arena looks like it is going to be a 9-10,000 seater, that might actually be too big for the team. *It certainly isn't nice when certain teams need to curtain off huge sections of the arena* like Jacksonville and Orlando.



"nice" isn't a necessity. Long-time minor pro hockey fans are used to arenas with curtained seating sections. It's not like the NHL, where widespread TV coverage showing whole tiers or multiple sections of the arena bowl covered in cloth would be a potebtial turnoff to fans & sponsors. As long as the lighting is adjusted properly to make those sections darkened, I rarely notice them any more when I visit such arenas ... unless me 'n' Mrs. JMC end up with cheap tickets in one of those sections ...


----------



## 210

Curtaining sections off can also make the rent cheaper because the facility needs fewer security people with fewer/smaller sections being used. Obviously something like that would need to be built into a lease, but the WorSharks and Railers both had/have those stipulations in theirs so odds are it isn't that rare of an occurrence.


----------



## Atlantian

Barclay Donaldson said:


> They would be right to call you crazy for suggesting ECHL hockey in Savannah _without_ this arena.



Once the arena was announced I saw it fit the ECHL standard for arena size and quality and I figured it’d be a good fit. With teams like Norfolk and Brampton in trouble, a possible new team in the south with great travel partners is something the league should keep a close eye on. (I only bring up Brampton because Norfolk can move to the north if the beast fold).


----------



## JMCx4

210 said:


> Curtaining sections off can also make the rent cheaper because the facility needs fewer security people with fewer/smaller sections being used. Obviously something like that would need to be built into a lease, but the WorSharks and Railers both had/have those stipulations in theirs so odds are it isn't that rare of an occurrence.



Looking at my photos of current ECHL arenas, I see curtains or similar seating section coverings in Worcester & Orlando & Tulsa & Wichita & Cincinnati (tarps over some upper deck seats) & maybe Greenville (that one's hard to confirm from the lighting in my images).


----------



## Atlantian

JMCx4 said:


> Looking at my photos of current ECHL arenas, I see curtains or similar seating section coverings in Worcester & Orlando & Tulsa & Wichita & Cincinnati (tarps over some upper deck seats) & maybe Greenville (that one's hard to confirm from the lighting in my images).



Greenville does have some curtains and Atlanta has started tarping some seats as well


----------



## 210

JMCx4 said:


> Looking at my photos of current ECHL arenas, I see curtains or similar seating section coverings in Worcester & Orlando & Tulsa & Wichita & Cincinnati (tarps over some upper deck seats) & maybe Greenville (that one's hard to confirm from the lighting in my images).



I just looked at your DCU pics...I am in one of them.


----------



## JMCx4

210 said:


> I just looked at your DCU pics...I am in one of them.



Easy to pick yourself out on a Sunday afternoon. There were more players on the two benches than there were fans in the stands.


----------



## 210

JMCx4 said:


> Easy to pick yourself out on a Sunday afternoon. There were more players on the two benches than there were fans in the stands.



I also knew where to look...


----------



## JMCx4

JMCx4 said:


> Looking at my photos of current ECHL arenas, I see curtains or similar seating section coverings in Worcester & Orlando & Tulsa & Wichita & Cincinnati (tarps over some upper deck seats) & maybe Greenville (that one's hard to confirm from the lighting in my images).



With a little more zooming & squinting, and checking the ticket sellers' seating charts, I think I can add Jacksonville to my list above.


----------



## 210

JMCx4 said:


> With a little more zooming & squinting, and checking the ticket sellers' seating charts, I think I can add Jacksonville to my list above.



You don't have to do either, they absolutely use curtains at the now-named VyStar Veterans Memorial Arena...


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Newfoundland Growlers’ owner in talks to purchase Mile One Centre
in the video dean macdonald plans on adding another franchise in the united states next month will this be another echl expansion??


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> Newfoundland Growlers’ owner in talks to purchase Mile One Centre
> in the video dean macdonald plans on adding another franchise in the united states next month will this be another echl expansion??



why would it be... all that is is Deacon buying out along with the Edge from SJSE, who's been the operator of Mile One since they left the Coliseum there in NFLD


----------



## hurricanesfan123

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> why would it be... all that is is Deacon buying out along with the Edge from SJSE, who's been the operator of Mile One since they left the Coliseum there in NFLD



in the United States..... this might be a echl expansion to manchester or perhaps savannah if he really wants to start from scratch


----------



## hurricanesfan123

or maybe an echl expansion to san Antonio


----------



## JMCx4

hurricanesfan123 said:


> in the United States..... this might be a echl expansion to manchester or perhaps savannah if he really wants to start from scratch





hurricanesfan123 said:


> or maybe an echl expansion to san Antonio



I'll say one thing for you, you ARE persistent in your fantasies.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

realistically this could be a savannah or manchester expansion after all he is a hockey man with deep pockets


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> in the United States..... this might be a echl expansion to manchester or perhaps savannah if he really wants to start from scratch



nope, then why would he expand to Trois Rivieres with Montrealwhen there's no guarantee the Leafs would've gone along with it

there is no expansion talk in a pandemic... Manchester or not.... the commonality is SJSE, the same way it has always been in the days of the AHL and even during Newfoundland's inaugural season when SJSE tried to pull the lease on them, remember that....

the Growlers are going nowhere unless MacDonald sells both franchises because how was T-R brought up originally


----------



## JMCx4

hurricanesfan123 said:


> realistically this could be a savannah or manchester expansion *after all he is a hockey man with deep pockets*



Under that sole condition of "realistically" his expansion target could be in just about any state or province in North America.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

JMCx4 said:


> Under that sole condition of "realistically" his expansion target could be in just about any state or province in North America.



guess we will find out next month and state not province


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> guess we will find out next month and state not province



the only expansion team is T-R.... and no league meetings will be held until at least 2022..... expansion or other league business


----------



## royals119

If you listen to the video the reporter says a "sports franchise in the United States". That may or may not be hockey. He could be buying a minor league baseball team or indoor lacrosse or something. Although the short term outlook for sports isn't good, if you have money to invest and time to wait, this would be a great time to pick up teams or arenas at a low price. I'm sure that is part of his motivation in talking to the city about the mile one center. If he can take it off their hands for next to nothing, invest in the infrastructure, and then act as concert promoter and landlord for his own hockey team, he will make a nice profit in the long term, and the city gets out from under an ongoing expense at a time when they likely have more pressing needs and reduced income. So he gets a building on the cheap and looks like a hero for bailing out the city. Win-win.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

hurricanesfan123 said:


> guess we will find out next month and state not province




Based on what he has done so far, he has put it in markets that are 1). near a NHL team that 2). wants to improve prospect development by adding a close affiliate a AA team within easy access.

St. John's is an cheap, easy 3-4 hour direct flight to their AHL/NHL affiliates in Toronto, Trois-Rivières is less than 2 hours driving away from their AHL/NHL affiliates in Montréal and Laval. Dean MacDonald has regularly praised this method of operation and is unlikely to change.

If you want to look at possible solutions, look for NHL teams that fit this mold. Boston certainly doesn't. They care more about getting their concessions revenue from Providence than developing their prospects. And unless they've suddenly changed after many long years of apathy, that counts out Manchester. Savannah is a five hour drive away from their closest NHL affiliate. That closest affiliate, Carolina, is already affiliated with the Greenville Swamp Rabbits less than two hours away. And unless the Hurricanes want to cancel that relationship they've spent a year praising and reportedly reaping rewards from, that counts out Savannah. I saw you mention San Antonio, Dallas is the only reasonable affiliate and they've been affiliated with the Steelheads for 15 years.

The only realistic situations to my knowledge is him getting a ECHL tenant for University of Iowa's new arena in Coralville and affiliating with the Minnesota Wild or the new arena to be building in Clarksville, TN and affiliating with Nashville. They have both been properly publicized, yet not linked to anyone let alone Dean MacDonald, and it fits his mold of operating, which he has been very clear about not changing.

You also have to take into consideration that in the past 5 years alone, there have been many different groups of people saying they will be bringing in a ECHL team to a market. Off the top of my head, people at different times have said they will be bringing a team to Reno, Richmond, among others. None of them happened. Speculating is one thing, but believing it will actually happen is another,


----------



## 210

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> the only expansion team is T-R.... and no league meetings will be held until at least 2022..... expansion or other league business




What? They meet via conference call or video meeting at least once every three months. My guess is it's been a lot more frequently than that as of late.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Based on what he has done so far, he has put it in markets that are 1). near a NHL team that 2). wants to improve prospect development by adding a close affiliate a AA team within easy access.
> 
> St. John's is an cheap, easy 3-4 hour direct flight to their AHL/NHL affiliates in Toronto, Trois-Rivières is less than 2 hours driving away from their AHL/NHL affiliates in Montréal and Laval. Dean MacDonald has regularly praised this method of operation and is unlikely to change.
> 
> If you want to look at possible solutions, look for NHL teams that fit this mold. Boston certainly doesn't. They care more about getting their concessions revenue from Providence than developing their prospects. And unless they've suddenly changed after many long years of apathy, that counts out Manchester. Savannah is a five hour drive away from their closest NHL affiliate. That closest affiliate, Carolina, is already affiliated with the Greenville Swamp Rabbits less than two hours away. And unless the Hurricanes want to cancel that relationship they've spent a year praising and reportedly reaping rewards from, that counts out Savannah. I saw you mention San Antonio, Dallas is the only reasonable affiliate and they've been affiliated with the Steelheads for 15 years.
> 
> The only realistic situations to my knowledge is him getting a ECHL tenant for University of Iowa's new arena in Coralville and affiliating with the Minnesota Wild or the new arena to be building in Clarksville, TN and affiliating with Nashville. They have both been properly publicized, yet not linked to anyone let alone Dean MacDonald, and it fits his mold of operating, which he has been very clear about not changing.
> 
> You also have to take into consideration that in the past 5 years alone, there have been many different groups of people saying they will be bringing in a ECHL team to a market. Off the top of my head, people at different times have said they will be bringing a team to Reno, Richmond, among others. None of them happened. Speculating is one thing, but believing it will actually happen is another,



i mean manchester and san Antonio would make sense for him both close to possible nhl and ahl affiliates he already convinced two nhl franchises with his teams so i can see it again. Who knows though. Maybe this is the unnamed manchester owner. @royals119 could be right though


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> i mean manchester and san Antonio would make sense for him both close to possible nhl and ahl affiliates he already convinced two nhl franchises with his teams so i can see it again. Who knows though. Maybe this is the unnamed manchester owner. @royals119 could be right though



T-R took care of Manchester and any other market is a non-starter, especially in a pandemic..... this isn't a speculation thread.... then there's why or if SJSE has indeed and/or finally relinquished control of the arena in St. John's


----------



## 210

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> T-R took care of Manchester and any other market is a non-starter, especially in a pandemic..... *this isn't a speculation thread*.... then there's why or if SJSE has indeed and/or finally relinquished control of the arena in St. John's




Seriously? All this is is a speculation thread.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

210 said:


> Seriously? All this is is a speculation thread.



then where is the 3 other ownerships outside of Trois Rivieres, then.....Darryl, since you are the so-called know-it-all about everything there is to know.... maybe you should buy the Railers and move then to Manchester or Savannah


----------



## hurricanesfan123

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> then where is the 3 other ownerships outside of Trois Rivieres, then.....Darryl, since you are the so-called know-it-all about everything there is to know.... maybe you should buy the Railers and move then to Manchester or Savannah



as I've said before sometimes i really dont get hutch


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> as I've said before sometimes i really dont get hutch



you're the one speculating, dude..... the league is still at 27, even without a pandemic, and whether or not T-r ACTUALLY Happens, remember the thread title, the league needs to go to 32, now, not 30, and that's predicated on getting those teams interested or supportive of affiliating, either by expansion, or existing markets.... now that Seattle is on its way, and they cannot even get their AHL Affiliate up and running due to the pandemic, which is why no league outside of the NHL at present is playing since the pandemic began in March.....


----------



## hurricanesfan123

id say at least 80% of this thread has been speculation nothing new


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> id say at least 80% of this thread has been speculation nothing new



and since March, outside of T-R, WHICH HAD ITS OWN thread, how many teams have been announced in the midst of a pandemic..... when the 2019-20 season ended in March, there is no news about expansion, Manchester, or not, and the pivot toward 12/4/21, EVEN if that occurs

all minor leagues in the US are not playing due to COVID 19.... NOT even the Canadian Major Junior leagues


----------



## hurricanesfan123

to be fair I thought manchester has gonna be official by now due to all the chatter about there being a owner i mean even mark divver was talking about it but since that didn't pan out i am looking (speculating) what other expansion options might work ex. savannah , san Antonio, Richmond with fred festa , etc. Dean Macdonald might be potentially looking at one of these options


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> to be fair I thought manchester has gonna be official by now due to all the chatter about there being a owner i mean even mark divver was talking about it but since that didn't pan out i am looking (speculating) what other expansion options might work ex. savannah , san Antonio, Richmond with fred festa , etc. Dean Macdonald might be potentially looking at one of these options



Richmond went the same way but that a different thread.... there's no arena in Richmond, hasn't been since the Renegades and Riverdogs collapsed...... and Navy Hill was rejected by the Commonwealth..... it's the same reasoning why Norfolk hasn't replaced Scope, and there's little option to even a temporary facility if it happens


----------



## 210

hurricanesfan123 said:


> id say at least 80% of this thread has been speculation nothing new




The entire topic is about speculation. There are some folks, or maybe it's just one specific person, that can't separate facts from speculation and then interject completely unrelated information that has no connection to anything, and that's what causes issues.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

210 said:


> The entire topic is about speculation. There are some folks, or maybe it's just one specific person, that can't separate facts from speculation and then interject completely unrelated information that has no connection to anything, and that's what causes issues.



I've watched Richmond FOR YEARS, where's the arena now that the Coliseum is not viable and has been closed since 2017, and who posted that..... not YOU

Richmond Coliseum closed permanently in February of 2019.....there is no arena in Henrico County, even being proposed or under discussion.... that's why the FPHL abandoned all attempts to go there, and settled on Fraser, MI


----------



## 210

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> I've watched Richmond FOR YEARS, where's the arena now that the Coliseum is not viable and has been closed since 2017, and who posted that..... not YOU
> 
> Richmond Coliseum closed permanently in February of 2019.....there is no arena in Henrico County, even being proposed or under discussion.... that's why the FPHL abandoned all attempts to go there, and settled on Fraser, MI




One, your post has nothing to do with what I said...which essentially proves my point; and two, I was in the Richmond Coliseum on two different occasions. How many times were in that arena "watching"?


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

hurricanesfan123 said:


> i mean manchester and san Antonio would make sense for him both close to possible nhl and ahl affiliates he already convinced two nhl franchises with his teams so i can see it again. Who knows though. Maybe this is the unnamed manchester owner. @royals119 could be right though




They’re both near NHL/AHL teams that have absolutely no interest in having an ECHL affiliate in that town. Boston is well known to not even care about their AHL affiliate outside of concessions revenue and Dallas has a ECHL team less than an hour away from them in Allen, but are clearly content with continuing their longstanding relationship with the Idaho Steelheads. They need to have both 1 and 2 to meet Dean MacDonald’s standards. This geography you’ve pointed out is only half of what he wants, the other half is much more important.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

hurricanesfan123 said:


> to be fair I thought manchester has gonna be official by now due to all the chatter about there being a owner i mean even mark divver was talking about it but since that didn't pan out i am looking (speculating) what other expansion options might work ex. savannah , san Antonio, Richmond with fred festa , etc. Dean Macdonald might be potentially looking at one of these options




Take out Richmond. Not happening without a new arena, which was voted down harshly and isn’t going to be revisited. Fred Festa hasn’t opened his yapper since then and won’t be opening it back up any time soon.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

hurricanesfan123 said:


> i mean manchester and san Antonio would make sense for him both close to possible nhl and ahl affiliates he already convinced two nhl franchises with his teams so i can see it again. Who knows though. Maybe this is the unnamed manchester owner. @royals119 could be right though



A ECHL team in San Antonio needs to have the perfect revenue scenario for the spurs to give up arena date's. Most likely something like the spurs getting a cut of Gameday revenue but having no ownership of the team.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

San Antonio is like Houston, and it's highly doubtful the Spurs, just like Houston, will allow an outside entity to sign a lease....

remember the Aeros, no lease=no team, pandemic or no pandemic, SA's core business is the Spurs.


----------



## JDogindy

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Take out Richmond. Not happening without a new arena, which was voted down harshly and isn’t going to be revisited. Fred Festa hasn’t opened his yapper since then and won’t be opening it back up any time soon.




No new arena is ever going to be built in the state of Virginia this century, and I am willing to be extreme. Richmond doesn't want to spend any money on replacing that dilapidated barn due to the obvious risks involved in it (heck, simply demolishing the Coliseum should be the best solution), and the Virginia Beach/Norfolk area won't come to terms on an agreement on where a new place should be built to replace their own ancient arenas. Besides, the college venues that do exist do not want outside gigs interfering in their athletics, so if you live in that state, you're screwed.



Centrum Hockey said:


> A ECHL team in San Antonio needs to have the perfect revenue scenario for the spurs to give up arena date's. Most likely something like the spurs getting a cut of Gameday revenue but having no ownership of the team.




And we all know that ain't gonna happen. I'm surprised the Spurs don't own the Missions baseball team, given what a monopoly they had otherwise in the sports market for years.


----------



## mk80

The only way Houston and San Antonio are getting teams are both ways that have very small percentages (almost 0) of taking place:

Option 1: Either the Spurs, or Tilman Ferttita decide they want to operate an ECHL team.
Option 2: Covid has been a big enough hit to the budgets of the Spurs and Ferttita that they would be willing to have someone operate a team in their buildings and pay rent, plus probably some cuts of other things, in order to help get their books back where they would like to see them. That of course also assuming that there's some rich guy sitting around during the pandemic who wants to blow money on a minor league sports team in one of those buildings.

Overall: I don't think there will be much expansion in the ECHL for quite a few years after this pandemic, as it has wiped out a lot of investment, and dramatically altered budgets. The ECHL will be lucky to see the majority of it's teams even come out of this alive.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

mk80 said:


> Overall: I don't think there will be much expansion in the ECHL for quite a few years after this pandemic, as it has wiped out a lot of investment, and dramatically altered budgets. The ECHL will be lucky to see the majority of it's teams even come out of this alive.




we should start a wager on when brampton will fold


----------



## mk80

hurricanesfan123 said:


> we should start a wager on when brampton will fold



Hasn't one for them and Wheeling been going on already?


----------



## Centrum Hockey

JDogindy said:


> No new arena is ever going to be built in the state of Virginia this century, and I am willing to be extreme. Richmond doesn't want to spend any money on replacing that dilapidated barn due to the obvious risks involved in it (heck, simply demolishing the Coliseum should be the best solution), and the Virginia Beach/Norfolk area won't come to terms on an agreement on where a new place should be built to replace their own ancient arenas. Besides, the college venues that do exist do not want outside gigs interfering in their athletics, so if you live in that state, you're screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> And we all know that ain't gonna happen. I'm surprised the Spurs don't own the Missions baseball team, given what a monopoly they had otherwise in the sports market for years.



OT The missions would be a poor investment until their is a viable replacement for the Wolff. They had a logical affiliate with the Texas rangers last year but they wanted nothing to do with that park. I do not think the spurs would try hockey again unless their is no risk on their end.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> we should start a wager on when brampton will fold



Brampton will not fold, if that was the case, Norfolk would've folded without an affiliation....but the rules states you can operate as an independent....


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

JDogindy said:


> No new arena is ever going to be built in the state of Virginia this century, and I am willing to be extreme. Richmond doesn't want to spend any money on replacing that dilapidated barn due to the obvious risks involved in it (heck, simply demolishing the Coliseum should be the best solution), and the Virginia Beach/Norfolk area won't come to terms on an agreement on where a new place should be built to replace their own ancient arenas. Besides, the college venues that do exist do not want outside gigs interfering in their athletics, so if you live in that state, you're screwed.




It is a shame because it seems like they're an excellent market for minor league sports. However, one can't blame a city for refusing to spend insane amounts of public money on private teams. Especially when many cities are getting wise after doing the cost/benefit analysis.


----------



## JMCx4

mk80 said:


> Hasn't one for them and Wheeling been going on already?



Don't encourage the lad.


----------



## Cacciaguida

Houston will get an NHL team before an ECHL team


----------



## JMCx4

Cacciaguida said:


> Houston will get an NHL team before an ECHL team



So Never + 1 season?


----------



## Cacciaguida

People doubted Las Vegas and Winnipeg getting teams. Seattle and Houston seem like no-brainers.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Cacciaguida said:


> Houston will get an NHL team before an ECHL team




So I’m guessing you saw Fertitta said he wanted a NHL team and never followed any of the following events?


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Cacciaguida said:


> People doubted Las Vegas and Winnipeg getting teams. Seattle and Houston seem like no-brainers.




People doubt Saskatoon as well. Because like Houston, they won’t be getting a NHL team.


----------



## Aero 75

Cacciaguida said:


> Houston will get an NHL team before an ECHL team



Houston won't get either. Fertitta can't afford both NBA & NHL, and there is no other arena in Houston for ANY hockey team to play at.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Aero 75 said:


> Houston won't get either. Fertitta can't afford both NBA & NHL, and there is no other arena in Houston for ANY hockey team to play at.



He also basically told Gary Bettman that a NHL team is not worth the investment. Any slim chance of Houston getting a team was pretty much over after that.


----------



## Aero 75

Barclay Donaldson said:


> So I’m guessing you saw Fertitta said he wanted a NHL team and never followed any of the following events?



Fertitta SAID he wanted an NHL team, but must have forgot he had to borrow money to buy the Houston Rockets.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Aero 75 said:


> Fertitta SAID he wanted an NHL team, but must have forgot he had to borrow money to buy the Houston Rockets.




Bettman and Daly told him to get lost so quickly it was actually funny. Fertitta was opening his mouth to anyone who will listen until that meeting and he hasn't opened it up since.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Bettman and Daly told him to get lost so quickly it was actually funny. Fertitta was opening his mouth to anyone who will listen until that meeting and he hasn't opened it up since.



Dallas has been one of the league’s biggest successes in terms of newer markets for hockey. Gary and co must have rolled their eyes when they heard his hockey doesn’t work below the mason dixon line comments.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Centrum Hockey said:


> Dallas has been one of the league’s biggest successes in terms of newer markets for hockey. Gary and co must have rolled their eyes when they heard his hockey doesn’t work below the mason dixon line comments.




It is safe to say they also rolled their eyes well before the Mason-Dixon Line comment. Fertitta's entire "Let's get a cheap NHL team because the NHL wants and needs us and I likely won't even be able to afford it because I had to take out an insane amount of debt to buy the NBA Rockets despite the NHL being on the record they are unwilling to expand and there are zero teams willing or able to relocate and also it is the South so I will need some help because there are no other non-traditional markets that do well financially in the league" probably had Stars owner Gagliardi rolling his eyes outside of his head and into the head of the person next to him.


----------



## JDogindy

Aero 75 said:


> Houston won't get either. Fertitta can't afford both NBA & NHL, and there is no other arena in Houston for ANY hockey team to play at.




Man, these are the times I wished the NRG Arena was used for more than the rodeo. Tillman showed his clown card to the NHL almost immediately.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

JDogindy said:


> Man, these are the times I wished the NRG Arena was used for more than the rodeo. Tillman showed his clown card to the NHL almost immediately.




Minor League Hockey got out of Texas rodeo barns around the time the WPHL (doing business as the CHL, as HansH would say) figured out that there was more money to be made building "Events Centers" in cities that didn't need them than there was in running hockey teams in cities that barely wanted them.


----------



## royals119

Xtream Arena | Coralville, IA - Official Website

Maybe I missed it, but I hadn't heard about Coralville Iowa as a potential expansion city for the ECHL until I listened to Sin Bin interview Comissioner Crelin the other day on their podcast. The comish said there is no ownership group yet, so not on their short term plans, and they are obviously busy dealing with Covid and trying to get this season off the ground, so haven't spent a lot of time working on it, but they do view it as a potential future market if the right ownership can be found. 

The link above says it is a new 5100 seat areana that will host a college club team, local youth hockey, and hopefully either an ECHL or USHL team. Obviously nothing is going to happen until there is the ability to host live sports again, but one to watch for the future.


----------



## 210

royals119 said:


> Xtream Arena | Coralville, IA - Official Website
> 
> Maybe I missed it, but I hadn't heard about Coralville Iowa as a potential expansion city for the ECHL until I listened to Sin Bin interview Comissioner Crelin the other day on their podcast. The comish said there is no ownership group yet, so not on their short term plans, and they are obviously busy dealing with Covid and trying to get this season off the ground, so haven't spent a lot of time working on it, but they do view it as a potential future market if the right ownership can be found.
> 
> The link above says it is a new 5100 seat areana that will host a college club team, local youth hockey, and hopefully either an ECHL or USHL team. Obviously nothing is going to happen until there is the ability to host live sports again, but one to watch for the future.




Barry from the Allen Americans blog mentioned it in passing earlier this year...that was the first I'd even heard of Coralville. He linked to this article, which essentially says what you just said:
Progress continues at Coralville's Xtream Arena, GreenState Family Fieldhouse


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

royals119 said:


> Xtream Arena | Coralville, IA - Official Website
> 
> Maybe I missed it, but I hadn't heard about Coralville Iowa as a potential expansion city for the ECHL until I listened to Sin Bin interview Comissioner Crelin the other day on their podcast. The comish said there is no ownership group yet, so not on their short term plans, and they are obviously busy dealing with Covid and trying to get this season off the ground, so haven't spent a lot of time working on it, but they do view it as a potential future market if the right ownership can be found.
> 
> The link above says it is a new 5100 seat areana that will host a college club team, local youth hockey, and hopefully either an ECHL or USHL team. Obviously nothing is going to happen until there is the ability to host live sports again, but one to watch for the future.




Xtream Arena | Coralville, IA - Official Website
University of Iowa men's club hockey team will call ImOn Ice arena in Cedar Rapids home
REPORT: SPHL eyeing two expansion teams for next season, including Iowa City, Iowa

It has been there, albeit not nearly as public as Trois-Rivières. I believe it is because, like you said, there has been no publicly interested ownership group. It is easy for everyone to notice it when people like Dean MacDonald is talking to the newspapers twice per week. They have been publicly targeting a USHL or ECHL team.

They originally planned on having Iowa Hawkeyes Women's volleyball as the main tenants with the USHL/ECHL team along with youth hockey programs and Iowa Hawkeyes club hockey. It sounded like they were still trying to fit the pieces together before COVID. After COVID, they certainly don't have their act together.


----------



## JMCx4

Barclay Donaldson said:


> ...
> University of Iowa men's club hockey team will call ImOn Ice arena in Cedar Rapids home ...




*NEWS FLASH: *Cedar Rapids' ImOn Arena won't be hosting hockey for awhile ... https://www.pollstar.com/article/storm-leaves-iowa-venues-damaged-146277. This could have a ripple effect on any plans for minor pro hockey in Coralville.


----------



## mk80

JMCx4 said:


> *NEWS FLASH: *Cedar Rapids' ImOn Arena won't be hosting hockey for awhile ... https://www.pollstar.com/article/storm-leaves-iowa-venues-damaged-146277. This could have a ripple effect on any plans for minor pro hockey in Coralville.



I guess with the delayed starts to all these hockey season some silver lining is they will hopefully be able to make repairs before the seasons begin, or at least not miss much of the seasons.


----------



## JMCx4

mk80 said:


> I guess with the delayed starts to all these hockey season some silver lining is they will hopefully be able to make repairs before the seasons begin, or at least not miss much of the seasons.



Two Iowa USHL arenas got thwacked by the derecho: Buccaneer Arena in Urbandale & ImOn Arena in CR. ImOn was already undergoing renovations, so that may reset their reopening clock more significantly than if they just had to deal with storm damage. For the RoughRiders and the U of Iowa men's club team, the "silver lining" may just be that no Coralville ownership group has stepped up yet to fill dates @ Xtreme with minor pro hockey.


----------



## JMCx4

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Xtream Arena | Coralville, IA - Official Website
> University of Iowa men's club hockey team will call ImOn Ice arena in Cedar Rapids home
> REPORT: SPHL eyeing two expansion teams for next season, including Iowa City, Iowa
> 
> It has been there, albeit not nearly as public as Trois-Rivières. I believe it is because, like you said, there has been no publicly interested ownership group. It is easy for everyone to notice it when people like Dean MacDonald is talking to the newspapers twice per week. They have been publicly targeting a USHL or ECHL team.
> 
> They originally planned on having Iowa Hawkeyes Women's volleyball as the main tenants with the USHL/ECHL team along with youth hockey programs and Iowa Hawkeyes club hockey. It sounded like they were still trying to fit the pieces together before COVID. After COVID, they certainly don't have their act together.



*Xtream Arena grand opening* later this week. Looks like good place for SOMEBODY to play ice hockey ...


----------



## mk80

JMCx4 said:


> *Xtream Arena grand opening* later this week. Looks like good place for SOMEBODY to play ice hockey ...




That is one beautiful arena! You do have to wonder how covid affects them pulling in a hockey tenant that the arena ownership has said they want to pursue.


----------



## JMCx4

mk80 said:


> That is one beautiful arena! You do have to wonder how covid affects them pulling in a hockey tenant that the arena ownership has said they want to pursue.



Rumors are rumbling up that way about "hockey news" coming out this week from Coralville/Iowa City. Could just be hopeful hockey fans, or could be an announcement timed to coincide with the grand opening. Stay tuned.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

JMCx4 said:


> *Xtream Arena grand opening* later this week. Looks like good place for SOMEBODY to play ice hockey ...





I remember seeing something from long time ago which says it will be the future home of the Minnesota Wild ECHL affiliate. I have not seen any news since. It still sounds like the main tenant will be the University of Iowa women's volleyball team. The University of Iowa club team does not even play at the facility.


----------



## JMCx4

Barclay Donaldson said:


> I remember seeing something from long time ago which says it will be the future home of the Minnesota Wild ECHL affiliate. I have not seen any news since. ...



Why have you been sitting on this gem? This is GREAT Silly Season fodder. With the caveat that Silly Season has been mutated by SARS-CoV-19. Nonetheless ... The Allen Americans have been the Wild ECHL affiliate for the last two seasons, and last summer their owner Jack Gulati said the team was up for sale with the hope of attracting local investors. Fast forwarding to this summer, has Gulati since expanded his search for buyers AND are Craig Leopold & his Wild co-owners still in a financial position to buy the Allen franchise for relocation to Iowa (as they did with the AHL Houston Aeros franchise in 2013)? It all makes sense if you squint really tightly & wish for SOMETHING to spice up the ECHL chat around here.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

JMCx4 said:


> Why have you been sitting on this gem? This is GREAT Silly Season fodder. With the caveat that Silly Season has been mutated by SARS-CoV-19. Nonetheless ... The Allen Americans have been the Wild ECHL affiliate for the last two seasons, and last summer their owner Jack Gulati said the team was up for sale with the hope of attracting local investors. Fast forwarding to this summer, has Gulati since expanded his search for buyers AND are Craig Leopold & his Wild co-owners still in a financial position to buy the Allen franchise for relocation to Iowa (as they did with the AHL Houston Aeros franchise in 2013)? It all makes sense if you squint really tightly & wish for SOMETHING to spice up the ECHL chat around here.




It was shared earlier in this thread.

Future ECHL Expansion? - GAME CHANGER SPORTS NETWORK

I didn't think it was worth bringing up because the article ended in a question mark, which usually means clickbait. The article ended most of its assertions with question marks, which infers the person really has no idea what they say. The article said Elmira, Fort Worth, and Reno would be other places for expansion. That was the final damning indictment. The Sea of Tranquility is more likely to get an ECHL.


----------



## JMCx4

Barclay Donaldson said:


> ... The article said Elmira, Fort Worth, and Reno would be other places for expansion. That was the final damning indictment. The Sea of Tranquility is more likely to get an ECHL.



So the Mare Tranquillitatis Moon Tigers could be the next entry on the ECHL's team map? Gotta get me one of their jerseys ...


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

JMCx4 said:


> So the Mare Tranquillitatis Moon Tigers could be the next entry on the ECHL's team map? Gotta get me one of their jerseys ...




Perhaps when we travel there we will find the alternative plane of existence a certain caps lock-challenged friend of ours comes from?


----------



## Centrum Hockey

JMCx4 said:


> Why have you been sitting on this gem? This is GREAT Silly Season fodder. With the caveat that Silly Season has been mutated by SARS-CoV-19. Nonetheless ... The Allen Americans have been the Wild ECHL affiliate for the last two seasons, and last summer their owner Jack Gulati said the team was up for sale with the hope of attracting local investors. Fast forwarding to this summer, has Gulati since expanded his search for buyers AND are Craig Leopold & his Wild co-owners still in a financial position to buy the Allen franchise for relocation to Iowa (as they did with the AHL Houston Aeros franchise in 2013)? It all makes sense if you squint really tightly & wish for SOMETHING to spice up the ECHL chat around here.



If Craig Leopold & CO are bored over the off season buying a echl team moving it to the upper Midwest and with a wild affiliation isn't a bad way to pass the time they also would have a lot of time to find a local businessman to flip it to.


----------



## JMCx4

Centrum Hockey said:


> If Craig Leopold & CO are bored over the summer buying a echl team moving to it to the upper Midwest and with a wild affiliation isn't a bad way to pass the time they also would have a lot of time to find a local businessman to flip it to.



I'd be in it for at least one weekend road trip per season, and maybe even buy a team jersey (depending on design/style & price, of course). We all do our part in this hockey world.


----------



## mk80

Barclay Donaldson said:


> It was shared earlier in this thread.
> 
> Future ECHL Expansion? - GAME CHANGER SPORTS NETWORK
> 
> I didn't think it was worth bringing up because the article ended in a question mark, which usually means clickbait. The article ended most of its assertions with question marks, which infers the person really has no idea what they say. The article said Elmira, Fort Worth, *and Reno* would be other places for expansion. That was the final damning indictment. The Sea of Tranquility is more likely to get an ECHL.



The day Reno finally gets an ECHL we should all have a HFBoards meetup at a game to celebrate that location/rumor/ dream finally coming true. Fort Worth is interesting considering they just opened the new 10k seat Dickies Arena there which will be home to a new NLL franchise. But they do have an ice plant, the problem is I assumed that the rodeo would still be a conflict blocking out a solid portion of any hockey schedule.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

mk80 said:


> The day Reno finally gets an ECHL we should all have a HFBoards meetup at a game to celebrate that location/rumor/ dream finally coming true. Fort Worth is interesting considering they just opened the new 10k seat Dickies Arena there which will be home to a new NLL franchise. But they do have an ice plant, the problem is I assumed that the rodeo would still be a conflict blocking out a solid portion of any hockey schedule.




The only thing less likely than a HF Boards meetup is Reno to get an ECHL team haha

Fort Worth is difficult because of the number of rival hockey options close by. Not being able to use their home facility during the one part of the season Southern teams typically attempt to maximize home attendance and dates because of the rodeo is an interesting nonstarter as well.


----------



## Aero 75

Barclay Donaldson said:


> The only thing less likely than a HF Boards meetup is Reno to get an ECHL team haha
> 
> Fort Worth is difficult because of the number of rival hockey options close by. Not being able to use their home facility during the one part of the season Southern teams typically attempt to maximize home attendance and dates because of the rodeo is an interesting nonstarter as well.



The infamous "Rodeo Road Trip" was part of life for several Texas minor league hockey teams in the past. Austin Ice Bats of the defunct WPHL, as well as the San Antonio Iguanas (CHL), Dragons (IHL), & Rampage (AHL) had to deal with almost a month on the road due to the rodeo. The San Antonio Dragons (IHL) came up with a novel idea to deal with the rodeo that would seem almost cost prohibitive today. They set up a hockey rink in the Alamodome for a couple of weeks, and played several games there in 1997 & 1998. It was during this time that the San Antonio Dragons established a record for attendance for a Texas professional hockey game when 19,211 people attended a game against the Phoenix Roadrunners in Feb. 1997. That record stood until Jan. 1, 2020, when the Dallas Stars absolutely obliterated it at the 2020 Winter Classic.

If Dickies Arena in Fort Worth actually wants professional hockey, they have several options to play games at a secondary location during the rodeo, if needed. Of course, a professional team at Dickies Arena would more than likely spell doom for the well supported Ft. Worth Brahmas of the NAHL.


----------



## JMCx4

Barclay Donaldson said:


> ... Fort Worth is difficult because of the number of rival hockey options close by. ...



Don't forget, Allen is moving to Coralville. That's ONE competitor for fans down.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Aero 75 said:


> The infamous "Rodeo Road Trip" was part of life for several Texas minor league hockey teams in the past. Austin Ice Bats of the defunct WPHL, as well as the San Antonio Iguanas (CHL), Dragons (IHL), & Rampage (AHL) had to deal with almost a month on the road due to the rodeo. The San Antonio Dragons (IHL) came up with a novel idea to deal with the rodeo that would seem almost cost prohibitive today. They set up a hockey rink in the Alamodome for a couple of weeks, and played several games there in 1997 & 1998. It was during this time that the San Antonio Dragons established a record for attendance for a Texas professional hockey game when 19,211 people attended a game against the Phoenix Roadrunners in Feb. 1997. That record stood until Jan. 1, 2020, when the Dallas Stars absolutely obliterated it at the 2020 Winter Classic.
> 
> If Dickies Arena in Fort Worth actually wants professional hockey, they have several options to play games at a secondary location during the rodeo, if needed. Of course, a professional team at Dickies Arena would more than likely spell doom for the well supported Ft. Worth Brahmas of the NAHL.



Would there be enough of a demand for hockey in forth worth. Stars tickets are not extremely unaffordable and allen isn't that far away.


----------



## mk80

Barclay Donaldson said:


> The only thing less likely than a HF Boards meetup is Reno to get an ECHL team haha
> 
> Fort Worth is difficult because of the number of rival hockey options close by. Not being able to use their home facility during the one part of the season Southern teams typically attempt to maximize home attendance and dates because of the rodeo is an interesting nonstarter as well.



Well that's certainly true, I'd give any location that ever pops up as a rumor on the boards here an edge over Reno. 

Maybe there could be some work around to the rodeo for anyone calling Dickies home, it says that they plan to use and the adjacent Will Rogers complex for the Rodeo, so maybe some games could be played during that time if the rodeo also has more than one location.



JMCx4 said:


> Don't forget, Allen is moving to Coralville. That's ONE competitor for fans down.



What about them moving across the mero-plex to Fort Worth?


----------



## JMCx4

mk80 said:


> ... What about them moving across the me(t)ro-plex to Fort Worth?



That would be completely counter to my entire MN Wild-IA Wild-Eastern IA Wild affiliation narrative. What's the matter with you?!


----------



## Aero 75

Centrum Hockey said:


> Would there be enough of a demand for hockey in forth worth the stars tickets are not extremely unaffordable and allen isn't that far away.



Dickies Arena seats 12,200 for hockey. I seriously doubt they could come close to filling it with all the competition in the area, even with the fact that Ft. Worth has always supported minor-pro hockey.


----------



## JDogindy

Aero 75 said:


> Dickies Arena seats 12,200 for hockey. I seriously doubt they could come close to filling it with all the competition in the area, even with the fact that Ft. Worth has always supported minor-pro hockey.




Also, arena ownership is going to be very strict on what will and won't be in that venue. They already have their team set up in the National Lacrosse League, and given that it hosts the Fort Worth Stock Show rodeo, that would mean a hockey team would have to be on the road for at least three weeks.


----------



## 210

JDogindy said:


> Also, arena ownership is going to be very strict on what will and won't be in that venue. They already have their team set up in the National Lacrosse League, and given that it hosts the Fort Worth Stock Show rodeo, *that would mean a hockey team would have to be on the road for at least three weeks.*




Provided they got some prime dates before and after it's not that big of an issue.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

210 said:


> Provided they got some prime dates before and after it's not that big of an issue.




Fourteen hotel rooms a night, $38 a day per diem for 25 people and $1,300 a day for a bus for three weeks is a pretty big issue to an ECHL team.


----------



## 210

CrazyEddie20 said:


> Fourteen hotel rooms a night, $38 a day per diem for 25 people and $1,300 a day for a bus for three weeks is a pretty big issue to an ECHL team.




Except it wouldn't be that, and not even close. KC is 550ish miles from Ft Worth, and there are three teams between those two cities. You could easily schedule three weekends worth of road games for Ft Worth and then have them in their own beds by Monday morning each weekend. And it's not like they're playing extra road games because of the rodeo, so they'd be paying expenses they'd already have to be paying anyway.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

honestly a little suprised dean didnt go with manchester guess coralville is the more stable long term choice


----------



## JMCx4

hurricanesfan123 said:


> honestly a little suprised dean didnt go with manchester guess coralville is the more stable long term choice



What's that quaint American saying ... "No, duh"?


----------



## Yotesfan97

Barclay Donaldson said:


> It was shared earlier in this thread.
> 
> Future ECHL Expansion? - GAME CHANGER SPORTS NETWORK
> 
> I didn't think it was worth bringing up because the article ended in a question mark, which usually means clickbait. The article ended most of its assertions with question marks, which infers the person really has no idea what they say. The article said Elmira, Fort Worth, and Reno would be other places for expansion. That was the final damning indictment. The Sea of Tranquility is more likely to get an ECHL.




Why would the writer just say Future ECHL Consideration without a question mark? Isn’t future expansion based on rumors? He was right about Iowa City. He know people in Elmira close to the owner. The owner has applied multiple times for ECHL membership, but the old owners screwed him over. Reno has always been rumored and could happen with Henderson getting an AHL team and Fort Worth’s Dickie Arena just got an ice system. He didn’t say in the article these are definite and gave his reasoning. I think he knows a little bit about what he’s talking about.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Yotesfan97 said:


> Why would the writer just say Future ECHL Consideration without a question mark? Isn’t future expansion based on rumors? He was right about Iowa City. He know people in Elmira close to the owner. The owner has applied multiple times for ECHL membership, but the old owners screwed him over. Reno has always been rumored and could happen with Henderson getting an AHL team and Fort Worth’s Dickie Arena just got an ice system. He didn’t say in the article these are definite and gave his reasoning. I think he knows a little bit about what he’s talking about.




Clickbait titles usually end in question marks. If the writer is asking the question themself, they likely don’t know the answer. Future expansion isn’t based on unsubstantiated rumors, like many of these were. 

Elmira owner Robbie Nichols is happy in the Fed making money rather than fighting to break even in the ECHL. He had never applied to the ECHL, unless you have evidence to the contrary. Unsubstantiated rumor. 

The writer wasn’t the first person to know about Iowa, considering Iowa publicly announced their intention to get an ECHL team multiple times. Doesn’t take a well-connected genius to put together an article saying they want a team. 

Reno hasn’t been rumored in years since the attempted ownership group was put in their place because of their deceptiveness and lack of capital. Discussions stall, but Reno still hopeful for ECHL hockey team, Professional Reno Hockey Team Looks Unlikely - Arena Digest

Ft. Worth’s Dickies Arena got a temporary ice plant installed, one used for ice shows and not pro hockey. 

Anyone can pick a map and throw darts at it while saying “these aren’t definite.”


----------



## Centrum Hockey

hurricanesfan123 said:


> honestly a little suprised dean didnt go with manchester guess coralville is the more stable long term choice



A Manchester ECHL expansion team would ideally have a bruins affiliation. And there is no shot that Boston would go for the same type of developmental system that dean wants.


----------



## 210

Centrum Hockey said:


> A Manchester ECHL expansion team would ideally have a bruins affiliation. And there is no shot that Boston would go for the same type of developmental system that dean wants.




Plus he may not want his teams in the same division..


----------



## JMCx4

210 said:


> Plus he may not want his teams in the same division.



That might've even been a stipulation in the BOG's agreement to allow Mr. MacDonald multiple teams.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

210 said:


> Plus he may not want his teams in the same division..






JMCx4 said:


> That might've even been a stipulation in the BOG's agreement to allow Mr. MacDonald multiple teams.



In theory there must be a way to separate Trois-Rivières and Newfoundland in a six division format.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

210 said:


> Except it wouldn't be that, and not even close. KC is 550ish miles from Ft Worth, and there are three teams between those two cities. You could easily schedule three weekends worth of road games for Ft Worth and then have them in their own beds by Monday morning each weekend. And it's not like they're playing extra road games because of the rodeo, so they'd be paying expenses they'd already have to be paying anyway.




Go more than 300 miles and you're required by the CBA to get hotel rooms. Sure, they aren't playing extra road games, but they've got to practice somewhere, and it ain't going to be at the home rink. Some of the I-10 teams used to have to start road trips two or three days early, going to Atlanta or Birmingham to practice because there was a load-in happening in their rink. It's not as easy as just going away for three nights. There may be more rinks than ever before in Texas, but ice time at the home rink is included in the team's lease, ice time at a practice rink costs $1,500 an hour.


----------



## 210

CrazyEddie20 said:


> Go more than 300 miles and you're required by the CBA to get hotel rooms. Sure, they aren't playing extra road games, but they've got to practice somewhere, and it ain't going to be at the home rink. Some of the I-10 teams used to have to start road trips two or three days early, going to Atlanta or Birmingham to practice because there was a load-in happening in their rink. It's not as easy as just going away for three nights. There may be more rinks than ever before in Texas, but ice time at the home rink is included in the team's lease, ice time at a practice rink costs $1,500 an hour.




In a new building they're likely not going to be able to practice much in it with all the events that would be scheduled between their games, so they'd already need to have a plan in place for that. And your $1500 an hour for ice is either a massive exaggeration or the rinks around the Worcester area are incredibly cheap to rent. Plus they'd only need these facilities on Tuesday, Wednesday, and possibly Thursday depending on when they left for their trip. They'd be at the road building on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, and Monday would be an off day.


----------



## mk80

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Ft. Worth’s Dickies Arena got a temporary ice plant installed, one used for ice shows and not pro hockey.



I thought I had a real ice plant put in. Either way I'd probably put Fort Worth at a stretch right now until there is more evidence of an owner in place.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

210 said:


> In a new building they're likely not going to be able to practice much in it with all the events that would be scheduled between their games, so they'd already need to have a plan in place for that. And your $1500 an hour for ice is either a massive exaggeration or the rinks around the Worcester area are incredibly cheap to rent. Plus they'd only need these facilities on Tuesday, Wednesday, and possibly Thursday depending on when they left for their trip. They'd be at the road building on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, and Monday would be an off day.




Fat finger, extra zero there. Shoulda been $150. Generally, teams get two hours of time. If they have a deal with a practice rink, that defrays costs a bit, but there are still a lot of hidden expenditures. Renting a truck to haul the equipment around. Fuel for the truck. If you go beyond a certain distance for practice, you have to rent a bus and give the boys per diem. That adds up over the course of the season, or over a month where they can't use the game rink, especially if it's the team's usual practice facility.

And in pro hockey, Monday isn't always an off day. Guys are coming in for treatment. Guys are doing dryland. Guys who are rehabbing might skate. Guys who aren't rehabbing will skate if there's ice available.

Everything seems so simple and cheap when we speak in generalities. Too bad it isn't that way in the real world.


----------



## Big Z Man 1990

I can imagine a 6-division alignment looking like this:

Brampton, Maine, Newfoundland, Trois-Rivières, Worcester, (expansion placeholder)

Adirondack, Norfolk, Reading, Wheeling, (expansion placeholder)

Atlanta, Florida, Greenville, Jacksonville, Orlando, South Carolina

Cincinnati, Fort Wayne, Indy, Kalamazoo, Toledo, (expansion placeholder)

Allen, Iowa City, Kansas City, Tulsa, Wichita

Idaho, Rapid City, Utah, (2 expansion placeholders)

I'm not choosing any cities for expansion. I would leave that up to the ECHL.


----------



## royals119

Big Z Man 1990 said:


> I can imagine a 6-division alignment looking like this:
> 
> Brampton, Maine, Newfoundland, Trois-Rivières, Worcester, (expansion placeholder)
> 
> Adirondack, Norfolk, Reading, Wheeling, (expansion placeholder)
> 
> Atlanta, Florida, Greenville, Jacksonville, Orlando, South Carolina
> 
> Cincinnati, Fort Wayne, Indy, Kalamazoo, Toledo, (expansion placeholder)
> 
> Allen, Iowa City, Kansas City, Tulsa, Wichita
> 
> Idaho, Rapid City, Utah, (2 expansion placeholders)
> 
> I'm not choosing any cities for expansion. I would leave that up to the ECHL.



I don't think they would do a six division alignment. The league perfers the first two rounds to be within divisions to reduce travel vs a conference playoff system. 

Brampton, Maine, Newfoundland, Trois-Rivières, Worcester, Adirondack, Reading, (expansion )

Wheeling Cincinnati, Fort Wayne, Indy, Kalamazoo, Toledo, (2 expansions)

Atlanta, Florida, Greenville, Jacksonville, Orlando, South Carolina, Norfolk, (expansion )

Allen, Iowa City, Kansas City, Tulsa, Wichita Idaho, Rapid City, Utah

In the short term they might stick Iowa in the midwest to balance the divisions while continuing to play an unbalanced schedule. 

Might be some movement depending on the expansion teams - Norfolk could end up with the north or the midwest, depending on where the four new teams come from. Of course this is all based on the assmption that no one fold or moves before four teams are added (unlikely). 

In another "what if" scenerio, maybe 20-21 becomes a lost season, a few teams fold in both leagues causing the SPHL to collapse, and the remaining teams join the ECHL, adding two net teams to the midwest, and two to the south, with Norfolk pushed to the North to even it out, and we start 21-22 with a 32 team ECHL (also not likely)


----------



## CrazyEddie20

royals119 said:


> Might be some movement depending on the expansion teams - Norfolk could end up with the north or the midwest, depending on where the four new teams come from. Of course this is all based on the assmption that no one fold or moves before four teams are added (unlikely).
> 
> In another "what if" scenerio, maybe 20-21 becomes a lost season, a few teams fold in both leagues causing the SPHL to collapse, and the remaining teams join the ECHL, adding two net teams to the midwest, and two to the south, with Norfolk pushed to the North to even it out, and we start 21-22 with a 32 team ECHL (also not likely)




For SPHL teams to join the ECHL, their ownership groups would have to be willing to nearly double their operating budget. Considering how the words "cost containment" are so readily attached to the SPHL, I doubt any of them would go for it. 

Perhaps the ECHL's economic model changes in the wake of Covid-19, but it would still have to be subject to a collectively bargained agreement with the PHPA. As I've said before, possibly in this thread, you're more likely to see a 20-team ECHL before you see a 30-team ECHL again.


----------



## Big Z Man 1990

royals119 said:


> I don't think they would do a six division alignment. The league perfers the first two rounds to be within divisions to reduce travel vs a conference playoff system.
> 
> Brampton, Maine, Newfoundland, Trois-Rivières, Worcester, Adirondack, Reading, (expansion )
> 
> Wheeling Cincinnati, Fort Wayne, Indy, Kalamazoo, Toledo, (2 expansions)
> 
> Atlanta, Florida, Greenville, Jacksonville, Orlando, South Carolina, Norfolk, (expansion )
> 
> Allen, Iowa City, Kansas City, Tulsa, Wichita Idaho, Rapid City, Utah
> 
> In the short term they might stick Iowa in the midwest to balance the divisions while continuing to play an unbalanced schedule.
> 
> Might be some movement depending on the expansion teams - Norfolk could end up with the north or the midwest, depending on where the four new teams come from. Of course this is all based on the assmption that no one fold or moves before four teams are added (unlikely).
> 
> In another "what if" scenerio, maybe 20-21 becomes a lost season, a few teams fold in both leagues causing the SPHL to collapse, and the remaining teams join the ECHL, adding two net teams to the midwest, and two to the south, with Norfolk pushed to the North to even it out, and we start 21-22 with a 32 team ECHL (also not likely)




It feels weird having a division called Mountain, yet the majority of the teams are in the Central Time Zone. I thought this up so that the ECHL could potentially add 2 more teams between the Mountain and Pacific Time Zones.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Big Z Man 1990 said:


> It feels weird having a division called Mountain, yet the majority of the teams are in the Central Time Zone. I thought this up so that the ECHL could potentially add 2 more teams between the Mountain and Pacific Time Zones.




Your point? The league called the ECHL, which stands for nothing. It is just letters. It was called the East Coast Hockey League for a long time despite having teams not on the East Coast. The American Hockey League has Canadian teams. The Southern Professional Hockey League has teams not in the South.


----------



## Big Z Man 1990

At least name it West Division if we're gonna keep a 4-division alignment.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

Big Z Man 1990 said:


> At least name it West Division if we're gonna keep a 4-division alignment.




Asking for anything to make sense in minor league hockey is a tall order.


----------



## royals119

CrazyEddie20 said:


> For SPHL teams to join the ECHL, their ownership groups would have to be willing to nearly double their operating budget. Considering how the words "cost containment" are so readily attached to the SPHL, I doubt any of them would go for it.
> 
> Perhaps the ECHL's economic model changes in the wake of Covid-19, but it would still have to be subject to a collectively bargained agreement with the PHPA. As I've said before, possibly in this thread, you're more likely to see a 20-team ECHL before you see a 30-team ECHL again.



Agreed, but since there is little else going on with minor league hockey, I'm just playing along with Big Z's "what if" scenerio for the league to get to 30, or 32, teams. 

If the econimic impact of Covid-19 on minor hockey is significant enough, it is possible enough SPHL teams fold to make the league no longer viable. (just for arguments sake, lets say only Pensacola, Roanoke, Quad City and Peoria are left standing. The low cost SPHL model might not work with that travel schedule) In that situation the few teams remaining, faced with a choice of no team, and an ECHL team, might make that choice

The ECHL, potentially reeling from their own loss of teams, might be willing to make a deal with a group of 3-5 SPHL teams to offer a path to entry they can afford. I don't know the truth, but there were rumblings something similar happened with the former CHL teams when that league collapsed.


----------



## Atlantian

royals119 said:


> Agreed, but since there is little else going on with minor league hockey, I'm just playing along with Big Z's "what if" scenerio for the league to get to 30, or 32, teams.
> 
> If the econimic impact of Covid-19 on minor hockey is significant enough, it is possible enough SPHL teams fold to make the league no longer viable. (just for arguments sake, lets say only Pensacola, Roanoke, Quad City and Peoria are left standing. The low cost SPHL model might not work with that travel schedule) In that situation the few teams remaining, faced with a choice of no team, and an ECHL team, might make that choice
> 
> The ECHL, potentially reeling from their own loss of teams, might be willing to make a deal with a group of 3-5 SPHL teams to offer a path to entry they can afford. I don't know the truth, but there were rumblings something similar happened with the former CHL teams when that league collapsed.



Since we are just doing theoreticals now, if for some reason the SPHL is no longer viable, you can lump teams into two different groups by thier attendance figures. I think the ECHL would happily add Huntsville, who according to Hockeydb, has an attendance of just about 5k each year. Theoretically, depending on how hard the ECHL is affected, They could also take Knoxville, Pensacola, Roanoke, and Peoria, who each average about 3500. Knoxville and Pensacola would possibly be great temporary teams to add because of the strength and stability of the current south division lineup. Peoria would be a great travel city in the Central division especially with the new Iowa City team. Roanoke is iffy. The other five teams are Fed teams. That league will never fold. They will force three travel teams if they have to. Any of the bottom five teams in the SPHL that survive the collapse of that league could easily make it in the fed, especially Macon and Birmingham now that columbus is in the league with talks of adding a team in Athens. But this is just a hypothetical. The only teams in the SP I could realistically see lasting long-term in the EC are Huntsville, Knoxville, and Peoria. All others it would be Fed or Fold.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

Atlantian said:


> Since we are just doing theoreticals now, if for some reason the SPHL is no longer viable, you can lump teams into two different groups by thier attendance figures. I think the ECHL would happily add Huntsville, who according to Hockeydb, has an attendance of just about 5k each year. Theoretically, depending on how hard the ECHL is affected, They could also take Knoxville, Pensacola, Roanoke, and Peoria, who each average about 3500. Knoxville and Pensacola would possibly be great temporary teams to add because of the strength and stability of the current south division lineup. Peoria would be a great travel city in the Central division especially with the new Iowa City team. Roanoke is iffy. The other five teams are Fed teams. That league will never fold. They will force three travel teams if they have to. Any of the bottom five teams in the SPHL that survive the collapse of that league could easily make it in the fed, especially Macon and Birmingham now that columbus is in the league with talks of adding a team in Athens. But this is just a hypothetical. The only teams in the SP I could realistically see lasting long-term in the EC are Huntsville, Knoxville, and Peoria. All others it would be Fed or Fold.




Keith "Nickel-and-Dime" Jeffries would have no interest in bringing the Havoc to the ECHL.


----------



## JMCx4

Atlantian said:


> *Since we are just doing theoreticals now*, if for some reason the SPHL is no longer viable, you can lump teams into two different groups by thier attendance figures. I think the ECHL would happily add Huntsville, who according to Hockeydb, has an attendance of just about 5k each year. Theoretically, depending on how hard the ECHL is affected, They could also take Knoxville, Pensacola, Roanoke, and Peoria, who each average about 3500. Knoxville and Pensacola would possibly be great temporary teams to add because of the strength and stability of the current south division lineup. Peoria would be a great travel city in the Central division especially with the new Iowa City team. Roanoke is iffy. The other five teams are Fed teams. That league will never fold. They will force three travel teams if they have to. Any of the bottom five teams in the SPHL that survive the collapse of that league could easily make it in the fed, especially Macon and Birmingham now that columbus is in the league with talks of adding a team in Athens. But this is just a hypothetical. The only teams in the SP I could realistically see lasting long-term in the EC are Huntsville, Knoxville, and Peoria. All others it would be Fed or Fold.



Theoretically ... none of those team owners would be significantly interested in paying the League entry fee nor the increased costs of operation in the ECHL. Start with the one @CrazyEddie20 cited, and work your way down the list. There would have to be a significant change in League financial structure for any much less all of Hu'ville, K'ville, Pensy, Roanoke, and Peoria to switch. Even theoretically.


----------



## PCSPounder

If we're going to play with theoreticals, how about a scenario where the E and the S bail each other out.

Full merge, play only within tightened home regions (tighter than the current SPHL, certainly), then sort out if/how you run playoffs.

Leave no doubt that I'm not holding my breath here. But if you want ANY growth in this new decade, that's about the only way you'll attract new markets.


----------



## JMCx4

@PCSPounder: A milestone in your HFB posting career: Not *one* mention of Portland, OR getting a team in either League (or the combined one).


----------



## JDogindy

JMCx4 said:


> Theoretically ... none of those team owners would be significantly interested in paying the League entry fee nor the increased costs of operation in the ECHL. Start with the one @CrazyEddie20 cited, and work your way down the list. There would have to be a significant change in League financial structure for any much less all of Hu'ville, K'ville, Pensy, Roanoke, and Peoria to switch. Even theoretically.




We COULD use Evansville again, but I think that would require a much more friendly arena deal to offset the costs of being in the ECHL, and even so, I'm not sure if attendance would be any better outside of games played against Indy or Fort Wayne. I just liked having three teams in the same state, that's all.

And I don't think other ECHL teams would be happy if we grandfathered some of these teams in with friendlier deals just so there's additional franchises for travelling purposes, for several reasons.


----------



## Atlantian

This is all a prediction thread so here's mine for 2025 ECHL, provided we make it through COVID. I do not think we will hit 30 in the next 5 years.
*North - 7*
- Newfoundland
- Reading
- Adirondack
- Trois Rivieres
- Worcester
- Maine
- Manchester (Expansion)

*South - 7*
- Atlanta
- Orlando
- Greenville
- South Carolina
- Florida
- Jacksonville
- Savannah GA (Expansion)

*Central - 8*
- Cincinnati
- Wheeling
- Toledo
- Ft. Wayne
- Indy
- Clarksville TN (Expansion)
- Kansas City
- Iowa City/Coralville

*Western - 8*
- Tulsa
- Wichita
- Allen
- Rapid City
- Utah
- Idaho
- OKC or San Antonio (Expansion)
- Reno (Expansion)

I cannot believe I seriously suggested Reno, but here we are. With Vegas putting a team in Henderson, once they're successful, I believe there is no doubt they will throw money at reno just like they did in san Antonio to put a team there. As for OKC and San Antonio, I believe the ECHL will work to put teams in those markets to add another travel partner to the already spread out Mountain division


----------



## royals119

Atlantian said:


> T
> 
> *Central - 8*
> - Cincinnati
> *- Wheeling*
> - Toledo
> - Ft. Wayne
> - Indy
> *- Wheeling*
> - Kansas City
> - Iowa City/Coralville




Are the two Wheeling teams going to share an arena, or will they build a new one for the second team?


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Atlantian said:


> - Tulsa
> - Wichita
> - Allen
> - Rapid City
> - Utah
> - Idaho
> - OKC or San Antonio (Expansion)
> - Reno (Expansion)
> 
> I cannot believe I seriously suggested Reno, but here we are. With Vegas putting a team in Henderson, once they're successful, I believe there is no doubt they will throw money at reno just like they did in san Antonio to put a team there. As for OKC and San Antonio, I believe the ECHL will work to put teams in those markets to add another travel partner to the already spread out Mountain division




Vegas explored that market for their AHL team. There is zero chance they will throw money at it for their ECHL team if they won't even throw money at for their AHL team. Hockey in Reno is a non-starter.

It was already explored by the ECHL, but the NBA and NBA developmental league are both deeply ingrained into the only two arenas capable of hosting a ECHL team. The noted issues were the impossibility of getting enough prime home dates for such a team to be financially feasible and the fact they are competing with two fairly popular teams in an already small market. Hockey in Oklahoma City is a non-starter.

Hockey in San Antonio is incredibly unlikely. The Spur ownership group sold the team because they weren't making them money. There is no other arena for them to play in, and a different owner getting in there isn't happening. They always did well for attendance, and their AHL staff and player salaries were minimal.


----------



## JMCx4

Barclay Donaldson said:


> ... Hockey in San Antonio is incredibly unlikely. The Spur ownership group sold the team because they weren't making them money. *There is no other arena for them to play in*, and a different owner getting in there isn't happening. They always did well for attendance, and their AHL staff and player salaries were minimal.



While I share your overall sentiment on SA as a not-bloody-likely landing spot for ECHL hockey, the city does have an "other arena" in the Alamodome. It has a functional ice plant (as witnessed by this recent job posting), which history shows is more than enough for hockey fans to include a city repeatedly in such speculative discussions.


----------



## Atlantian

royals119 said:


> Are the two Wheeling teams going to share an arena, or will they build a new one for the second team?



well obviously I am not the brightest. I meant one of them to be Clarksville TN


----------



## hurricanesfan123

the next expansion will be 
savannah (within 3-6 years)
manchester (within 2-4 years)
san Antonio (5-10 years)


----------



## Atlantian

hurricanesfan123 said:


> the next expansion will be
> savannah (within 3-6 years)
> manchester (within 2-4 years)
> san Antonio (5-10 years)



Savannah and manchester would come in at the same time I believe, unless norfolk folds


----------



## royals119

Atlantian said:


> Savannah and manchester would come in at the same time I believe, unless norfolk folds



It would be handy if they did, but probably would only be simultaneous if it just happens to work out that way for the two ownership groups. The league isn't going to make a team wait just because the divisions would be uneven. At one point the northeast division was so much larger than the northwest (like 5 teams vs 9 if I remember correctly) that they had an extra playoff round to supposedly make it more fair. 


Atlantian said:


> well obviously I am not the brightest. I meant one of them to be Clarksville TN



Easy enough to make a mistake when typing in a large list like that. I've been guilty of the same myself.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

hurricanesfan123 said:


> the next expansion will be
> savannah (within 3-6 years)
> manchester (within 2-4 years)
> san Antonio (5-10 years)




Any evidence to support San Antonio's willingness or capability to attract an ECHL franchise? There has been plenty of evidence to show hockey will not return.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

JMCx4 said:


> While I share your overall sentiment on SA as a not-bloody-likely landing spot for ECHL hockey, the city does have an "other arena" in the Alamodome. It has a functional ice plant (as witnessed by this recent job posting), which history shows is more than enough for hockey fans to include a city repeatedly in such speculative discussions.




If anything shows an ability to support professional hockey, it is a football arena in one of the most humid parts of the continent with an interest to make ice.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Atlantian said:


> Savannah and manchester would come in at the same time I believe, unless norfolk folds



Everything has been quiet regarding Manchester.


Barclay Donaldson said:


> Any evidence to support San Antonio's willingness or capability to attract an ECHL franchise? There has been plenty of evidence to show hockey will not return.



Its pretty obvious that the spurs could no longer afford to loose money on the purchases peter holt made during the years Tim Duncan played for the spurs.


----------



## 210

Centrum Hockey said:


> Its pretty obvious that the spurs could no longer afford to loose money on the purchases peter holt made during the years Tim Duncan played for the spurs.




Really? Based on what?


----------



## Centrum Hockey

210 said:


> Really? Based on what?



https://news4sanantonio.com/news/lo...ge-really-means-for-the-spurs-ownership-group


----------



## 210

Centrum Hockey said:


> What selling the Rampage really means for the Spurs ownership group




There isn't any way the Rampage were losing that much money, and that article reads like a forum post.


----------



## Atlantian

Heard something interesting from a reliable source. What do you guys think about Albuquerque


----------



## 210

Atlantian said:


> Heard something interesting from a reliable source. What do you guys think about Albuquerque




I hear the city is lovely.


----------



## JMCx4

210 said:


> I hear the city is lovely.



Vet your sources.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Atlantian said:


> Heard something interesting from a reliable source. What do you guys think about Albuquerque



A) WHO'S THE owner, is that owner an NHL Organization?;

b) what NHL organization not already committed to an existing ECHL Market would operate it, if not own it;

c) the way New Mexico is in the midst of the pandemic, in regards to existing business already active, if not postponed/suspended/delayed


----------



## CrazyEddie20

Atlantian said:


> Heard something interesting from a reliable source. What do you guys think about Albuquerque




Worked out so well in the CHL, it couldn't possibly fail again now that it'd be nine hours from its nearest opponent!


----------



## JMCx4

CrazyEddie20 said:


> Worked out so well in the CHL, it couldn't possibly fail again now that it'd be nine hours from its nearest opponent!



First half of the season, traveling team (ripping a page from the FPHL Playbook). Second half of the season, hosting the rest of the League in the high desert climes of All-Beef-Jerky (good spot for an ASG weekend, too).


----------



## CrazyEddie20

JMCx4 said:


> First half of the season, traveling team (ripping a page from the FPHL Playbook). Second half of the season, hosting the rest of the League in the high desert climes of All-Beef-Jerky (good spot for an ASG weekend, too).




They actually did well when they were in Albuquerque, and then Kozuback, huckster that he is, sold Rio Rancho on paying ICC to build and manage an arena the city couldn't afford that was near nothing anyone wanted to go to (which was, of course, the business plan for ICC).


----------



## Atlantian

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> WHO'S THE owner, is that owner an NHL Organization?;



Would not be owned by an NHL org. I had just heard there have been talks with a few cities by an ownership group and I did not know too much about the arena situation in Albuquerque. I don’t think it would work out compared to another city mentioned especially with the large travel distance between teams in that division.


----------



## 210

JMCx4 said:


> Vet your sources.



Ironically, I heard that info from my cat's vet!


----------



## 210

Atlantian said:


> Would not be owned by an NHL org. I had just heard there have been talks with a few cities by an ownership group and *I did not know too much about the arena situation in Albuquerque*. I don’t think it would work out compared to another city mentioned especially with the large travel distance between teams in that division.




Perhaps your "reliable source" can fill you in on the details...


----------



## Atlantian

210 said:


> Perhaps your "reliable source" can fill you in on the details...



I’ll try to get more information when I can, but at least to me it did not seem like the main city of focus. Just one they’d looked into.


----------



## JMCx4

Atlantian said:


> I’ll try to get more information when I can, but at least to me it did not seem like the main city of focus. Just one they’d looked into.



You just go back to your source & tell them that the HF-BOG has flatly rejected Albuqurque as an expansion location. Next!


----------



## PCSPounder

As someone who likes Albuquerque and can somehow straddle the fence on the green v red chile debate (I'm 6'4" and am therefore under the delusion that I could be there and not get called on the carpet about it)... if only you could add El Paso to the discussion. That's the rivalry you want.

But who's actually going to build an arena where one should be? 

Frankly, the people who put together New Mexico United hit the sports jackpot in Albuquerque, and that's because it's the right market. Getting them their own stadium will end up being a higher priority for government types than trying to bring back hockey. Getting that stadium probably isn't a high priority in the first place.


----------



## JimB

I'll note that the owner of Albuquerque's AAA baseball team is Ken Young, former owner of the Norfolk Admirals. I suspect he's had enough of hockey however.


----------



## JMCx4

JimB said:


> I'll note that the owner of Albuquerque's AAA baseball team is Ken Young, former owner of the Norfolk Admirals. *I suspect he's had enough of hockey however.*



Stranger notions have fueled this Board.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

JMCx4 said:


> Stranger notions have fueled this Board.



not really, I kinda see where KY simply is tired of the politics/business and the way he was essentially strong-armed by the Samuelis into selling the Admirals..... remember, Anaheim, was one of the few holdouts from the Pacific Division creation almost 8 years ago now, JMC..... It also kinda of explains the sudden fast fall of Manchester, not only as a market, but no recourse (yet) as to how a franchise would ultimately succeed there, or will there always be a comparison to the Monarchs franchise if/when that market returns....

it's likely the same question that would Worcester, Maine, and Newfoundland fanbases had to answer then adapt to the ECHL style as most were used to or had grown up in that style or league.... whether it was the direction the AHL Was HEADING, financially impacting franchises, etc.....

if it wasn't for Anaheim finding Edmonton, I'm not exactly sure Norfolk would've returned to the ECHL in the fashion it did.... nevermind their previous history in the league pre 2000, and the 15 years they were 'promoted'.


----------



## Atlantian

Was just presented with an interesting question. Could we possibly be seeing a resurgence of the ECHL in the Southeast? Every team in the southeast minus Norfolk are on good footing as of right now. Looking into the future, Savannah seems like a great possibility. At least one ownership group has expressed interest but possibly 2. Both Richmond and Augusta are working on projects for new arenas. One is more likely than the other to happen, but both are big former markets. Looking at the less likely to happen, Charlotte no longer having an affiliation with the Canes brings big questions, especially being on a geographical island and being out for the 20-21 season. The SPHL is looking shaky especially after this season, possibly the high drawing team in Huntsville. I know a lot of this is unlikely but it’s an interesting question to pose.


----------



## JMCx4

Atlantian said:


> Was just presented with an interesting question. Could we possibly be seeing a resurgence of the ECHL in the Southeast? ...



We aren't seeing a resurgence of ANY hockey league in North America right now. The question may be a valid one to consider in two or three years, as the COVID dust settles across the industry & the economy it is operating in at that time. Maybe that timeline gives the current hockey-less cities you mentioned time to establish home venues for teams & for a presumed stronger ECHL to recruit a solid ownership group for each city to expand the League footprint. But I've seen no evidence lately that the ECHL is in a superior position to either the SPHL or the FPHL to take control of the southern market in the foreseeable future.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

Do you guys really think Manchester has shot at a rebirth it seems the fanbase there completely dis owned the former franchise after the move to the 4 letter league ?


----------



## 210

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> Do you guys really think Manchester has shot at a rebirth it seems the fanbase there completely dis owned the former franchise after the move to the 4 letter league ?




Before COVID it was a 100% certainty that there would be an expansion team in Manchester soon. Now it's not so certain.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

210 said:


> Before COVID it was a 100% certainty that there would be an expansion team in Manchester soon. Now it's not so certain.



Is there any articles or something would love to research this


----------



## JMCx4

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> Is there any articles or something *would love to research this*



The COVID, or the future of pro hockey in Manchester?


----------



## 210

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> Is there any articles or something would love to research this




I mentioned it several times here and other places, and some of the people on the forum that only get their information from newspaper articles and social media chose not to believe me. Then, there was this...


----------



## JMCx4

210 said:


> I mentioned it several times here and other places, and some of the people on the forum that only get their information from newspaper articles and social media chose not to believe me. ...



To set the record straight ... We didn't choose to dismiss your learned opinion on this topic. We consulted The Great Oracle of the HFBoards and followed the will of the gods.


----------



## 210

JMCx4 said:


> To set the record straight ... We didn't choose to dismiss your learned opinion on this topic. We consulted The Great Oracle of the HFBoards and followed the will of the gods.



In hindsight, that is a fair assessment...


----------



## hurricanesfan123

I wouldnt be surprised if something echl came out of manchester post-covid in the next 1-3 years. Glanced over their arena schedule it's pretty empty and that's being generous. I wouldn't be surprised to see some sports team tenant in there soon whether its hockey or not who knows. Some constant revenue needs to be made to a city-funded building.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

210 said:


> Before COVID it was a 100% certainty that there would be an expansion team in Manchester soon. Now it's not so certain.



It would also be interesting to know how "invested" the potential owners were. If they went far to negotiate a lease or just had discussions with city/league


----------



## JMCx4

hurricanesfan123 said:


> I wouldnt be surprised if something echl came out of manchester post-covid in the next 1-3 years. *Glanced over their arena schedule it's pretty empty and that's being generous.* ...



You do realize there's a pandemic going on, right? It's been in all the papers.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

JMCx4 said:


> You do realize there's a pandemic going on, right? It's been in all the papers.



2020 pre-covid


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> I wouldnt be surprised if something echl came out of manchester post-covid in the next 1-3 years. Glanced over their arena schedule it's pretty empty and that's being generous. I wouldn't be surprised to see some sports team tenant in there soon whether its hockey or not who knows. Some constant revenue needs to be made to a city-funded building.



PRETTY MUCH anything other than hockey was summarily not allowed on the Manchester FB group once the reality set in after the Monarchs collapse that there was little chatter and outright speculative chatter, if you will.... similiar to how this forum cracks down on that type of speculative talk without a basis of fact..... 

yes, the city owns it, but the dust hasn't really settled there as to whether hockey as it was prior to November 2001 in SNHU Arena, would even succeed in a market like Manchester, as it did in other cities in New England, that have successfully pivoted to building a brand, whether or not there's a past connection as you see in Portland, or what the Railers have done until the pandemic there in Worcester, nevermind, what Deacon has done/is doing between Newfoundland and Trois-Rivieres within league guidelines....

that has not changed in Manchester, it's just who will that fan be, as Cliff Rucker was to Worcester, when they were establishing the Railers, that just hasn't been determined....

it's also highly unlikely that a Boston based affiliation would materialize. because the other 2 primary affiliations are staying in Portland.

if it wasn't for the Monarchs, you likely don't see New Hampshire being a pro sport market, as it was likely the last to achieve that classification...

to me, Manchester is more like Lowell, than it is any other city in New England, and look where Lowell has fallen professionally over the years, outside of the Lowell Riverhawks.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

Atlantian said:


> Was just presented with an interesting question. Could we possibly be seeing a resurgence of the ECHL in the Southeast? Every team in the southeast minus Norfolk are on good footing as of right now. Looking into the future, Savannah seems like a great possibility. At least one ownership group has expressed interest but possibly 2. Both Richmond and Augusta are working on projects for new arenas. One is more likely than the other to happen, but both are big former markets. Looking at the less likely to happen, Charlotte no longer having an affiliation with the Canes brings big questions, especially being on a geographical island and being out for the 20-21 season. The SPHL is looking shaky especially after this season, possibly the high drawing team in Huntsville. I know a lot of this is unlikely but it’s an interesting question to pose.




Honestly, no. The glory days of the ECHL in the deep south came about in a unique time where the American economy was on fire, there were a bunch new millionaires looking for expensive play toys and a bunch of empty arenas looking for things to fill dates. There was significantly less competition for the entertainment dollar, the costs of operating an ECHL team (adjusted for inflation) were significantly lower, and because the ECHL and the other leagues at the time were somewhat akin to pro wrestling on ice with enforcers as the faces/heels, it drew well. 

Hardly any of that is true today. Charlotte is a major league market. If they aren't in the AHL, I'm not sure they'd draw well anymore. Richmond and Augusta don't have viable arenas and won't for several more years. Americans have less disposable income and more (and cheaper) choices on where to spend it for entertainment. Huntsville is owned by the cheapest owner in the SPHL. He probably can't afford to operate in the ECHL, where costs are nearly double that of the SPHL, and he wouldn't be able to cheat the salary cap or manipulate the league office as effectively.

Oh yeah, and there's a pandemic that shows no signs of abating, despite a vaccine being available.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

hurricanesfan123 said:


> It would also be interesting to know how "invested" the potential owners were. If they went far to negotiate a lease or just had discussions with city/league



I am sure they at least had a plan to avoid the mistakes of the monarchs.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

hurricanesfan123 said:


> It would also be interesting to know how "invested" the potential owners were. If they went far to negotiate a lease or just had discussions with city/league




No arena is going to negotiate a lease with an ownership group that hasn't taken steps towards securing a franchise.


----------



## 210

hurricanesfan123 said:


> It would also be interesting to know how "invested" the potential owners were. If they went far to negotiate a lease or just had discussions with city/league




The primary investor went through the ECHL's vetting process. Before an organization can make a formal application to the league they need to have a lease agreement. I don't know how close they and the SNHU Arena were, or even if they'd started negotiating a lease. Since the pandemic, there have been no updates from anyone involved other than they are assessing the current situation.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

210 said:


> The primary investor went through the ECHL's vetting process. Before an organization can make a formal application to the league they need to have a lease agreement. I don't know how close they and the SNHU Arena were, or even if they'd started negotiating a lease. Since the pandemic, there have been no updates from anyone involved other than they are assessing the current situation.



Thanks for the clarification


----------



## Atlantian

It’s happening 

City of Savannah to announce new hockey franchise on Wednesday


----------



## JMCx4

Atlantian said:


> It’s happening
> 
> City of Savannah to announce new hockey franchise on Wednesday



*SOME* of you owe @Atlantian and @hurricanesfan123 an apology for doubting this would ever happen. I, of course, was *ALWAYS* supportive of their thoughtful predictions............now what happened to that "Delete Multiple Posts" button............


----------



## JDogindy

Atlantian said:


> It’s happening
> 
> City of Savannah to announce new hockey franchise on Wednesday




FPHL is a safe bet.


----------



## JDogindy

So with all the new team talk, can we discuss what to do with old, unwanted teams?

Brampton and Norfolk are the two glaring offenders in the league right now. Norfolk plays in a state where every public arena was built in the Bronze Age while Brampton is a city that just hates hockey and would be foolish to keep wasting taxpayer dollars on unsuccessful ventures.


----------



## Atlantian

JDogindy said:


> So with all the new team talk, can we discuss what to do with old, unwanted teams?
> 
> Brampton and Norfolk are the two glaring offenders in the league right now. Norfolk plays in a state where every public arena was built in the Bronze Age while Brampton is a city that just hates hockey and would be foolish to keep wasting taxpayer dollars on unsuccessful ventures.



Brampton is done without their insane subsidy. No ifs ands or buts. The only thing left for them to decide is when to announce their intentions to fold. Norfolk still has some life, but I do not see them surviving much longer. When Savannah joins the league in 2022, that would push them to the north and increase their travel costs. Do not see them surviving the transition in their current state.


----------



## royals119

Atlantian said:


> Brampton is done without their insane subsidy. No ifs ands or buts. The only thing left for them to decide is when to announce their intentions to fold. Norfolk still has some life, but I do not see them surviving much longer. When Savannah joins the league in 2022, that would push them to the north and increase their travel costs. Do not see them surviving the transition in their current state.



With the teams that played last season, plus the expansions already announced, you end up with a pretty easy division setup
West - Allen, Tulsa, Wichita, Rapid City, Utah, Idaho, KC (7)
Central - Kzoo, FTW, Indy, Cincy, Toledo, Wheeling, Coralville (7)
North - St John, 3R, Brampton, Reading, Worcester, Adirondack, Brampton (7)
South - Florida, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Greenville, SC, Savannah, Orlando, Norfolk (8)

Since Savannah isn't coming on until 2022, Norfolk will certainly stay in the south for 21-22, even if Brampton folds. If Brampton sticks around, or is replaced by another market that fits the north, like say Manchester, then Norfolk still stays in the south. Even if Brampton folds and no one else joins, they likely still keep Norfolk in the south and go with 7,7,6,8 - or they nominally add Norfolk to the north, but they continue to play a schedule that includes mainly Reading, Wheeling, and the SC and Georgia teams, and Newfoundland subsidizes a trip there and comes down for a weekend. That way the economic impact is minimal, except for playoffs -and playoff haven't been an issue for Norfolk recently.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

royals119 said:


> With the teams that played last season, plus the expansions already announced, you end up with a pretty easy division setup
> West - Allen, Tulsa, Wichita, Rapid City, Utah, Idaho, KC (7)
> Central - Kzoo, FTW, Indy, Cincy, Toledo, Wheeling, Coralville (7)
> North - St John, 3R, Brampton, Reading, Worcester, Adirondack, Brampton (7)
> South - Florida, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Greenville, SC, Savannah, Orlando, Norfolk (8)
> 
> Since Savannah isn't coming on until 2022, Norfolk will certainly stay in the south for 21-22, even if Brampton folds. If Brampton sticks around, or is replaced by another market that fits the north, like say Manchester, then Norfolk still stays in the south. Even if Brampton folds and no one else joins, they likely still keep Norfolk in the south and go with 7,7,6,8 - or they nominally add Norfolk to the north, but they continue to play a schedule that includes mainly Reading, Wheeling, and the SC and Georgia teams, and Newfoundland subsidizes a trip there and comes down for a weekend. That way the economic impact is minimal, except for playoffs -and playoff haven't been an issue for Norfolk recently.



aren't u forgetting something Royals:

North Division in your post is missing Maine.


----------



## Martin Veillette

210 said:


> Before COVID it was a 100% certainty that there would be an expansion team in Manchester soon. Now it's not so certain.




Source?


----------



## Atlantian

Martin Veillette said:


> Source?



I thought we all went over this already about the credibility of certain people on twitter


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Martin Veillette said:


> Source?



ESSENTIALLY nothing has changed in Manchester, Martin.... yes, Commissioner Crelin would entertain the possibility of a new Manchester franchise, but nothing has come of it....

either that, or there's no interest from those wanting to start a franchise, to the point where you've seen Deacon, do it three times, but there's no guarantee Newfoundland would've survived had the sidebar over the Edge and SJSE, not interfered with that franchise...

same with Worcester, after how that market was treated by St. Louis, especially, not as much by SVSE.

THERE'S also a contingent of fans who want Manchester back in the AHL, but that's simply not in the cards after the transition and the decision by the AHL to create a Pacific Division, something that's still reverberating now with the way Calgary is running their player development.... that's not the pandemic, although they'll spin it that way


----------



## 210

Martin Veillette said:


> Source?



Two posts after the one you just quoted.

Edit: My mistake...three posts.


----------



## 210

Atlantian said:


> I thought we all went over this already about the credibility of certain people on twitter



We did. And all he had to do was scroll down three posts for a source about as connected to the hockey world as you can find...we won't mention that I said it weeks earlier though.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

Its nice to see the league adding teams however . Not to be a negative nancy but there is a couple teams who aren't the healthiest franchises out there . its great to see the league grow . But shouldnt the league focus on strengthening the existing locations .


----------



## Martin Veillette

210 said:


> Two posts after the one you just quoted.
> 
> Edit: My mistake...three posts.




Thanks for the "edit".
I was totally lost without it.

Maybe next time you can put your source in the same post just like you told me the other day 

Can I ask why are you so mean all the time when you post here?
There are professionnals out there if you wanna get some help!


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Martin Veillette said:


> Thanks for the "edit".
> I was totally lost without it.
> 
> Can I ask why are you so mean all the time when you post here?
> There are professionnal out there if you wanna get some help!



@210 Is just that way at times, just kinda gloss over it....


----------



## royals119

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> aren't u forgetting something Royals:
> 
> North Division in your post is missing Maine.



I thought I was missing someone. Sorry to the Maine fans, if there are any here. 
Proves the point even more, that there is no need to move Norfolk to the north, even with the addition of Savannah. North would have 8 teams with Brampton or Manchester, 7 teams without. 



Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> Its nice to see the league adding teams however . Not to be a negative nancy but there is a couple teams who aren't the healthiest franchises out there . its great to see the league grow . But shouldnt the league focus on strengthening the existing locations .



The league works with the owners of all teams to help them be successful. They have meetings several times per year, and ongoing mentoring. As long as they meet their league obligations and follow the rules the league can't tell an owner how to run his or her business. At the end of the day it is up to the owner to strengthen their own team. The best thing the league can do collectively is try to add strong teams whenever possible, so that the league remains viable, even if some teams fail.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

royals119 said:


> I thought I was missing someone. Sorry to the Maine fans, if there are any here.
> Proves the point even more, that there is no need to move Norfolk to the north, even with the addition of Savannah. North would have 8 teams with Brampton or Manchester, 7 teams without.
> 
> 
> The league works with the owners of all teams to help them be successful. They have meetings several times per year, and ongoing mentoring. As long as they meet their league obligations and follow the rules the league can't tell an owner how to run his or her business. At the end of the day it is up to the owner to strengthen their own team. The best thing the league can do collectively is try to add strong teams whenever possible, so that the league remains viable, even if some teams fail.



no worries, there. I knew it was a slip and I don't remember Brampton playing in the North Division, although they did play them last year....

hard to keep track of everyone.... it happens


----------



## JMCx4

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> @210 Is just that way at times, just kinda gloss over it....



We ALL have our faults.


----------



## Martin Veillette

So 3 spots left for having a perfect 32-32-32


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Martin Veillette said:


> So 3 spots left for having a perfect 32-32-32



no, just 3 ECHL teams... the Kraken/ THEIR AHL Affiliate (both previously announced) AND wherever Seattle chooses to have their ECHL Team.....


----------



## Martin Veillette

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> no, just 3 ECHL teams... the Kraken/ THEIR AHL Affiliate (both previously announced) AND wherever Seattle chooses to have their ECHL Team.....




That's what I meant. 3 (ECHL) spots left 
Question: is the "Palm Beach Firebirds" name official yet?


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Martin Veillette said:


> That's what I meant. 3 (ECHL) spots left
> Question: is the "Palm Beach Firebirds" name official yet?



ON the 2nd point.... last I knew, the arena was never started..... and there was a brief trademark issue over the Firebirds.... but then it appeared they were looking at Palm Desert, instead of Palm Springs.

nothing was made official due to the pandemic... except the AHL approved the AHL Franchise


----------



## 210

Martin Veillette said:


> Thanks for the "edit".
> I was totally lost without it.
> 
> Maybe next time you can put your source in the same post just like you told me the other day
> 
> Can I ask why are you so mean all the time when you post here?
> There are professionnals out there if you wanna get some help!




I didn't post that as the source for my information in the tweet you quoted because I was the first to post it here and in other places, having spoken to the person leading the Manchester group several times prior to the onset of the pandemic. Essentially, I am the source of the original information. Plus, on top of that, it is not the first time that tweet from Mark Divver (dated July 9, 2020) was posted in this forum. The veracity of my information was already proven.

You have to post your sources because you haven't shown that you have access to information that isn't generally available to the public. That's one of the forum rules here. I've been involved in minor league hockey, both as a fan and as a media member, for longer than I've been on this forum (which is 17 years or so). I have proven many, many times that I have access to people and information the average fan doesn't.

And none of my posts lately have been in any way, shape, or form "mean". I can and have posted that way before. If it happens again, you'll clearly see the difference.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

210 said:


> I didn't post that as the source for my information in the tweet you quoted because I was the first to post it here and in other places, having spoken to the person leading the Manchester group several times prior to the onset of the pandemic. Essentially, I am the source of the original information. Plus, on top of that, it is not the first time that tweet from Mark Divver (dated July 9, 2020) was posted in this forum. The veracity of my information was already proven.
> 
> You have to post your sources because you haven't shown that you have access to information that isn't generally available to the public. That's one of the forum rules here. I've been involved in minor league hockey, both as a fan and as a media member, for longer than I've been on this forum (which is 17 years or so). I have proven many, many times that I have access to people and information the average fan doesn't.
> 
> And none of my posts lately have been in any way, shape, or form "mean". I can and have posted that way before. If it happens again, you'll clearly see the difference.



have you spoken to the group since the pandemic, it would be interesting to see their current point of view on the situation,possibly post covid intentions?


----------



## hurricanesfan123

hurricanesfan123 said:


> have you spoken to the group since the pandemic, it would be interesting to see their current point of view on the situation, possibly post covid



oops, double post


----------



## 210

hurricanesfan123 said:


> have you spoken to the group since the pandemic, it would be interesting to see their current point of view on the situation,possibly post covid intentions?




They've said nothing for the record (not that they ever have), but they appear to be waiting to see how things work out post-covid.


----------



## Martin Veillette

210 said:


> I didn't post that as the source for my information in the tweet you quoted because I was the first to post it here and in other places, having spoken to the person leading the Manchester group several times prior to the onset of the pandemic. Essentially, I am the source of the original information. Plus, on top of that, it is not the first time that tweet from Mark Divver (dated July 9, 2020) was posted in this forum. The veracity of my information was already proven.
> 
> You have to post your sources because you haven't shown that you have access to information that isn't generally available to the public. That's one of the forum rules here. I've been involved in minor league hockey, both as a fan and as a media member, for longer than I've been on this forum (which is 17 years or so). I have proven many, many times that I have access to people and information the average fan doesn't.
> 
> And none of my posts lately have been in any way, shape, or form "mean". I can and have posted that way before. If it happens again, you'll clearly see the difference.




Ohhh so you have a "special" status.
Now I understand. And "we", the average fans, are not credible without a source. Ok ok I get it!

ps: by the way, i was the one in here saying that ECHL TROIS-RIVIÈRES was official months before the league made it official. Coming from my inside source. I happen to live in that city
So, do I have a special status too?


----------



## 210

Martin Veillette said:


> Ohhh so you have a "special" status.
> Now I understand. And "we", the average fans, are not credible without a source. Ok ok I get it!
> 
> ps: by the way, i was the one in here saying that ECHL TROIS-RIVIÈRES was official months before the league made it official. Coming from my inside source. I happen to live in that city
> *So, do I have a special status too?*




You'll have to ask the moderators and site admins about that. It's their rules, not mine.


----------



## Barclay Donaldson

Martin Veillette said:


> Ohhh so you have a "special" status.
> Now I understand. And "we", the average fans, are not credible without a source. Ok ok I get it!
> 
> ps: by the way, i was the one in here saying that ECHL TROIS-RIVIÈRES was official months before the league made it official. Coming from my inside source. I happen to live in that city
> So, do I have a special status too?




Trois-Rivières has been linked with an ECHL team since 2018. There have consistently been articles put out for the last three years about the ECHL and Trois-Rivières. I think we all knew they were going there, it simply wasn't official yet. This is because we have Google and three minutes of time. Bragging about knowing something is going to happen because you live in the area and have an inside source means nothing when there have been dozens of articles out for at least two years before you heard about it.


----------



## Martin Veillette

Barclay Donaldson said:


> Trois-Rivières has been linked with an ECHL team since 2018. There have consistently been articles put out for the last three years about the ECHL and Trois-Rivières. I think we all knew they were going there, it simply wasn't official yet. This is because we have Google and three minutes of time. Bragging about knowing something is going to happen because you live in the area and have an inside source means nothing when there have been dozens of articles out for at least two years before you heard about it.




Lol! I just said it was official and signed, and not a rumour anymore.


----------



## Atlantian

Martin Veillette said:


> Ohhh so you have a "special" status.
> Now I understand. And "we", the average fans, are not credible without a source. Ok ok I get it!
> 
> ps: by the way, i was the one in here saying that ECHL TROIS-RIVIÈRES was official months before the league made it official. Coming from my inside source. I happen to live in that city
> So, do I have a special status too?



I had Savannah before anyone. Where's my special status


----------



## JMCx4

Atlantian said:


> I had Savannah before anyone. Where's my special status



Savannah Guthrie? You dawg.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

probably a dumb question but do you guys see the ECHL ever joining with a sports betting app like barstool sports book . and working out a profit sharing deal with the teams ?


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> probably a dumb question but do you guys see the ECHL ever joining with a sports betting app like barstool sports book . and working out a profit sharing deal with the teams ?



PROBABLY Not...


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> probably a dumb question but do you guys see the ECHL ever joining with a sports betting app like barstool sports book . and working out a profit sharing deal with the teams ?



wouldn't bet on it but would certainly be cool to see


----------



## royals119

hurricanesfan123 said:


> wouldn't bet on it but would certainly be cool to see



I think, in order to make money, they would need two things. One, they have enough information about the players/teams, and enough people or computers to crunch that data so that they can make enough correct predictions so that they maintain their edge vs the bettors. Second, enough people willing to bet on the games to make it worthwhile. 
Both are questionable. With NHL/MLB/NBA/NFL, etc you have a fairly good idea who is going to play in the game, and how they will perform. With ECHL the rosters change significantly from day to day, and there are lots of rookies getting lots of ice time. Very tough to predict the outcome of individual games. With the major sports you have millions of people watching on TV or in bars who are placing bets. The only people betting on ECHL games would be those who go to the live games. Thats a pool of ~4000 people per game, and a lot of those are kids or people who don't gamble. 
Now if they could use their pre-existing platform and servers, and somehow plug in data from the league without having to invest a bunch of money, and they could make it work with some kind of generic odds, or by charging a transaction fee, maybe it works. But is there enough money in it to make it worthwhile for the provider and the league? Because the league is also going to have to police the players and coaches to make sure no one is betting on the league games.


----------



## Atlantian

Brampton is ceasing operations at the conclusion of this season.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

the real question becomes what happens to their membership? Is it terminated or will it be sold to a future owner so they wont have to pay higher expansion fees?


----------



## Atlantian

hurricanesfan123 said:


> the real question becomes what happens to their membership. Is it terminated or will it be sold to a future owner.



It says they’ve withdrawn which to me means it will be terminated.


----------



## 210

Wrong thread, sorry...


----------



## JMCx4

210 said:


> Updates from Midseason Meeting of ECHL Board of Governors
> Huh...


----------



## 210

I posted that in the wrong thread, but whatever...


----------



## JMCx4

210 said:


> I posted that in the wrong thread, but whatever...



Wrong thread, wrong time zone, wrong universe, whatever ...


----------



## hurricanesfan123

210 said:


> I posted that in the wrong thread, but whatever...



how does one report something to admins


----------



## 210

hurricanesfan123 said:


> how does one report something to admins



You click the "report" button at the bottom of each post...


----------



## Cyclones Rock

Atlantian said:


> Brampton is ceasing operations at the conclusion of this season.





I never like to see a team leave, but this one has been a disaster from jump street. A fellow Cyclones fan has been up there several times and he says-and his videos confirm-that they never had over 500 for a Friday or Saturday game when he was there.


----------



## JMCx4

Cyclones Rock said:


> ... A fellow Cyclones fan has been up there several times and he says-and his videos confirm-that *they never had over 500 for a Friday or Saturday game when he was there*.



Maybe many hockey fans in Brampton don't like the smell of that gawd-awful Cincinnati chili on his breath.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

nm


----------



## CrazyEddie20

hurricanesfan123 said:


> how does one report something to admins




*BAN HIM!*


----------



## mk80

So if my math is correct, and I'm checking it with all of you...

-Brampton + Trois Riveres, Iowa City, & Savannah

barring any other teams folding or taking a hiatus for whatever reason the league sits at 28 teams for the 21-22 season.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

mk80 said:


> So if my math correct, and I'm checking it with all of you...
> 
> -Brampton + Trois Riveres, Iowa City, & Savannah
> 
> barring any other teams folding or taking a hiatus for whatever reason the league sits at 28 teams for the 21-22 season.



it will be 28... but will Brampton be transferred a la Portland or go the way of Manchester.... it is unlikely that the opt-out for 21/22 for those who opted out for 21...

we still don't know if Seattle will start a franchise like they've done for the Kraken and their AHL Affiliate TBD, or will they align with an expansion team or an existing one with that team switching affiliates to somewhere else.

where does Ottawa and Belleville go from here now that Brampton is now not an option....


----------



## 210

Brampton won't be transferred. The ECHL press release specifically says "withdrawn their Membership in the ECHL", which means they've returned the franchise rights to the league. The Alaska Aces suspended operations with the permission of the ECHL, which allowed them to sell the franchise rights.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

210 said:


> Brampton won't be transferred. The ECHL press release specifically says "withdrawn their Membership in the ECHL", which means they've returned the franchise rights to the league. The Alaska Aces suspended operations with the permission of the ECHL, which allowed them to sell the franchise rights.



what's Ottawa's plan though, 210, there are now 7-8 or more teams now that either don't have a specific affiliate or development-wise haven't been convinced to join the ECHL.

THIS ISN'T the way we've seen that you have to be affiliated with a PDC in hand to be an active member club, the way the AHL Requires you to be.... YET


----------



## 210

None of that has anything to do with what I posted. You asked what will happen to the Brampton franchise, and I replied. The rest requires conjecture, and to be honest none of us has enough information to do anything but make a wild guess.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

210 said:


> None of that has anything to do with what I posted. You asked what will happen to the Brampton franchise, and I replied. The rest requires conjecture, and to be honest none of us has enough information to do anything but make a wild guess.



ok, that's fine.....


----------



## mk80

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> it will be 28... but will Brampton be transferred a la Portland or go the way of Manchester.... it is unlikely that the opt-out for 21/22 for those who opted out for 21...
> 
> we still don't know if Seattle will start a franchise like they've done for the Kraken and their AHL Affiliate TBD, or will they align with an expansion team or an existing one with that team switching affiliates to somewhere else.
> 
> where does Ottawa and Belleville go from here now that Brampton is now not an option....



The ECHL said the Beast have withdrawn their membership which means it wouldn't be an "active" franchise anymore. I admittedly know nothing of the player movement Ottawa had between Belleville and Brampton but I would bet they didn't really use the Beast more than most teams other than to stash a couple extra contracts, and signed on for the marketing/PR.


----------



## JMCx4

CrazyEddie20 said:


> *BAN HIM!*



Or in keeping with the season ... *CRUCIFY HIM!!!*


----------



## Cacciaguida

If I were a betting man I would bet Ottawa is going to use that new fancy club in Trois-Rivieres


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Cacciaguida said:


> If I were a betting man I would bet Ottawa is going to use that new fancy club in Trois-Rivieres



HOW, if Montreal has the affiliation and has since the club was announced..... as it stands now Laval has overflow without an option since there's been no North Division this season.

the surprise was Savannah, not 3R/Coralville, which likely goes to the Wild


----------



## Atlantian

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> HOW, if Montreal has the affiliation and has since the club was announced..... as it stands now Laval has overflow without an option since there's been no North Division this season.
> 
> the surprise was Savannah, not 3R/Coralville, which likely goes to the Wild



Yeah I see Iowa going with Minnesota. Savannah has connections with Seattle already so I believe they’ll be their affiliate starting the second season with them likely sharing Idaho with Dallas year one.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Atlantian said:


> Yeah I see Iowa going with Minnesota. Savannah has connections with Seattle already so I believe they’ll be their affiliate starting the second season with them likely sharing Idaho with Dallas year one.



might be an off question but will Atlanta be with Boston next year


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> might be an off question but will Atlanta be with Boston next year



I'd expect to see basically the same affiliations as we had in the last almost full season.... the only caveat is where does Ottawa go next....

because outside of Brampton's announcement, and the 3 new expansions... it should be back to 28, unless there's something we haven't accounted for....


----------



## JMCx4

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> ... because outside of Brampton's announcement, and the 3 new expansions... it should be back to 28, unless there's something we haven't accounted for....



If this august group (or I guess it's a february group now) of HFB posters hasn't accounted for something, then it ain't worth accounting for.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

Do you guys see any other teams folding or being at risk of folding at this point? obviously Brampton was already in trouble . There is other teams out there that are not healthy .


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> Do you guys see any other teams folding or being at risk of folding at this point? obviously Brampton was already in trouble . There is other teams out there that are not healthy .



no, because you would've likely have heard about it before now.


----------



## 210

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> Do you guys see any other teams folding or being at risk of folding at this point? obviously Brampton was already in trouble . There is other teams out there that are not healthy .



I think Brampton will be the only one folding unless something odd happens and teams can't play in front of fans come October. If that happens I can see some teams having major issues.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

hurricanesfan123 said:


> might be an off question but will Atlanta be with Boston next year



The bruins don’t really care about minor league hockey.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Centrum Hockey said:


> The bruins don’t particularly care about minor league hockey.



what????

if they didn't care why was the Providence PDC extended until 2029?


----------



## hurricanesfan123

Centrum Hockey said:


> The bruins don’t really care about minor league hockey.



i know... We have at minimum established that before in this thread but as far as Atlanta if they will resign with Boston or choose a different team for marketing and promotional purposes like a regional team


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> i know... We have at minimum established that before in this thread but as far as Atlanta if they will resign with Boston or choose a different team for marketing and promotional purposes like a regional team



there really isn't one available here.... I cannot see Worcester changing from the Islanders, much like the Rangers leaving Maine, and Boston ignored Portland for Providence in the early 1990s


----------



## Centrum Hockey

hurricanesfan123 said:


> i know... We have at minimum established that before in this thread but as far as Atlanta if they will resign with Boston or choose a different team for marketing and promotional purposes like a regional team



Don Sweeney seems like he has a good relationship with the people in Atlanta. The only realistic regional option really would be Maine.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Centrum Hockey said:


> Don Sweeney seems like he has a good relationship with the people in Atlanta. The only realistic regional option really would be Maine.



nope.

why? Maine hates Boston management, Centrum..... then you've got Briere and Holmgren (Comcast/Flyers)running the current franchise here, which also operates Cross Arena and Hartford's business operations as well as the XL Center.... the only caveat for Maine will be once they return is how involved will the Rangers and Chris Drury be with Briere, Drury now has been promoted to Associate GM of the Rangers

proof of that was 1988-1991.


----------



## Atlantian

hurricanesfan123 said:


> might be an off question but will Atlanta be with Boston next year



Atlanta will be with Boston until the Atlanta owner screws it up or until the E puts a team in Manchester.


----------



## Atlantian

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> Do you guys see any other teams folding or being at risk of folding at this point? obviously Brampton was already in trouble . There is other teams out there that are not healthy .



Every team is unhealthy at the moment. In my opinion, you need at least 3.5k in attendance to be in good standing in the E. 4K plus to me is healthy. Every team playing right now is below that line. Only JAX and FLA are above 3K. If everyone makes it, all 27 teams will be on a very tight budget for next year except for TOL and FTW probably. At this point, we just don't know. I've heard talk about Norfolk closing up, I've heard talk about Newfie moving because of everything going on at Mile One still, and Atlanta still does not have a lease for next season as far as I know. We just do not know a lot and the majority of this board is speculation. 

Attendance: ECHL 2020-21 team attendance at hockeydb.com


----------



## JMCx4

Atlantian said:


> ... We just do not know a lot and *the majority of this board is speculation*. ...



How **dare** you give us hope that there is something other than speculation here!


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Atlantian said:


> Every team is unhealthy at the moment. In my opinion, you need at least 3.5k in attendance to be in good standing in the E. 4K plus to me is healthy. Every team playing right now is below that line. Only JAX and FLA are above 3K. If everyone makes it, all 27 teams will be on a very tight budget for next year except for TOL and FTW probably. At this point, we just don't know. I've heard talk about Norfolk closing up, I've heard talk about Newfie moving because of everything going on at Mile One still, and Atlanta still does not have a lease for next season as far as I know. We just do not know a lot and the majority of this board is speculation.
> 
> Attendance: ECHL 2020-21 team attendance at hockeydb.com



If Cavanagh cant make it work Norfolk should take a long break from hosting pro hockey at least 3 years.


----------



## PCSPounder

Thought I’d update on what I thought to be a semi-cynical comment made a few months ago.



PCSPounder said:


> Frankly, the people who put together New Mexico United hit the sports jackpot in Albuquerque, and that's because it's the right market. Getting them their own stadium will end up being a higher priority for government types than trying to bring back hockey. Getting that stadium probably isn't a high priority in the first place.




State Funding Sought for Albuquerque Soccer Stadium Project

Whether this lessens or improves any chances of hockey being next in line... I don’t know. I’d say it’s unlikely. This effort obviously isn’t 100% assured. But New Mexico is actually considering public funding for a stadium project. That’s news given the last few years in the arena/stadium project sphere.


----------



## Atlantian

PCSPounder said:


> Thought I’d update on what I thought to be a semi-cynical comment made a few months ago.
> 
> 
> 
> State Funding Sought for Albuquerque Soccer Stadium Project
> 
> Whether this lessens or improves any chances of hockey being next in line... I don’t know. I’d say it’s unlikely. This effort obviously isn’t 100% assured. But New Mexico is actually considering public funding for a stadium project. That’s news given the last few years in the arena/stadium project sphere.



I do not see Albuquerque getting an arena suitable for pro hockey in the next decade, although there was a study done in 2019 about the possibility of a new stadium to replace Tingley, former home of the New Mexico Scorpions of the WPHL


----------



## JMCx4

Atlantian said:


> I do not see Albuquerque getting an arena suitable for pro hockey in the next decade, although there was a study done in 2019 about the possibility of a new stadium to replace Tingley, former home of the New Mexico Scorpions of the WPHL



Fact Check Time: "What do you guys think about Albuquerque ..."


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

JMCx4 said:


> Fact Check Time: "What do you guys think about Albuquerque ..."



either that or the Bugs Bunny line


----------



## JMCx4

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> either that or the Bugs Bunny line



*SOMEBODY* took a wrong turn on this one.


----------



## Atlantian

As of right now, we are sitting at 28 teams for the 2022-23 season. Obviously a lot can happen between now and then. This leaves us with even divisions of 7 if Norfolk remains healthy and moves to the North as I expect them to. As we have seen, this new commissioner is keen on expanding, which none of us were expecting to happen during a pandemic. Starting next season, the NHL will have 32 teams, meaning there is about 4 spots left to keep all 3 leagues even. I know some teams have not been buying into the ECHL, but with the new partnership model between Newfoundland and Toronto becoming a success and with both TR and Iowa following a similar model, I see that changing. Now, the speculation. Overall, as a board, I think we agree Manchester is now the top spot for a new E team. That brings the North to 8. Where else could the ECHL reasonably slip a team in? Richmond does not look like it's happening. Clarksville, TN is getting a new 8k seat arena and the Preds have been a part of the process. That is right on the line between the South and Central divisions. Provided each of the current teams stays healthy, and that we are closer to the end of the pandemic than the beginning, what cities get us from 28 to 32 in the next decade?


----------



## Atlantian

JMCx4 said:


> Fact Check Time: "What do you guys think about Albuquerque ..."



Ok a source told me people were looking into it. I did not know anything about the city. Now that I do, I dont think they'll get pro hockey in the next decade


----------



## JMCx4

Atlantian said:


> ... Overall, as a board, I think we agree Manchester is now the top spot for a new E team. ...



Never let a preponderance of contradictory evidence stand in the way of your fruitful imagination, @Atlantian. It's one of your more charming traits.


----------



## 210

Atlantian said:


> Ok a source told me people were looking into it. I did not know anything about the city. Now that I do, I dont think they'll get pro hockey in the next decade




Something I learned a long time ago: The term "source" is massively overused on the internet, and seldom means what the person saying the word thinks it means.


----------



## Atlantian

JMCx4 said:


> Never let a preponderance of contradictory evidence stand in the way of your fruitful imagination, @Atlantian. It's one of your more charming traits.



Manchester is easily the most agreed upon city in this thread. Never said it was unanimous or even close to. Prior to the announcement, it was more agreed upon than Savannah as a potential spot.


210 said:


> Something I learned a long time ago: The term "source" is massively overused on the internet, and seldom means what the person saying the word thinks it means.



It is a legitimate source very high up with an ECHL team.


----------



## 210

Others may disagree, but for me anyone that wrong isn't a legitimate source.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Atlantian said:


> Manchester is easily the most agreed upon city in this thread. Never said it was unanimous or even close to. Prior to the announcement, it was more agreed upon than Savannah as a potential spot.
> 
> It is a legitimate source very high up with an ECHL team.



what executive/source are we talking about here that said Manchester's in line to get another franchise, Atlantian? based off the history of Manchester and the way the Investment group that bailed on the Monarchs franchise, is why Manchester has backed away, not only from legitimate pursuits to return hockey to Manchester, and the city basically told the NCAA TO pick another site for the East Regional, that went to the Times Union Center in Albany.... 

yes, Crelin stated Manchester would be considered if a legitimate option were proposed, but that has not occurred.

Nobody has ever stated that Manchester is or as equivalent to Savannah, which basically came out of nowhere.

the only correlation between the two is the arena, and how the Monarchs were founded back in 2001 and what Savannah is doing now to be ready for 2022-23...


----------



## hurricanesfan123

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> what source are we talking about here that said Manchester's in line to get another franchise...



mark divver and although i dont follow it much im pretty sure they are only not hosting the ncaa games for 1 year due to covid


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> mark divver



and that source works for what entity.....

Delaware North aka Boston either wants to control their affiliations or to smother the affiliation.

newspapers are a dying breed....

unless he wants to own a franchise, it's not legitimate


----------



## 210

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> what executive/source are we talking about here that said Manchester's in line to get another franchise, Atlantian? based off the history of Manchester and the way the Investment group that bailed on the Monarchs franchise, is why Manchester has backed away, not only from legitimate pursuits to return hockey to Manchester, and *the city basically told the NCAA TO pick another site for the East Regional*, that went to the Times Union Center in Albany....
> 
> yes, Crelin stated Manchester would be considered if a legitimate option were proposed, but that has not occurred.
> 
> Nobody has ever stated that Manchester is or as equivalent to Savannah, which basically came out of nowhere.
> 
> the only correlation between the two is the arena, and how the Monarchs were founded back in 2001 and what Savannah is doing now to be ready for 2022-23...




Because of the pandemic.

https://www.uscho.com/2021/01/26/ne...hosting-2021-northeast-regional-championship/

“We have proudly served as long-standing hosts of the NCAA Northeast Regional Championship, which consistently generates excitement for the state of New Hampshire and the city of Manchester,” added SNHU Arena senior GM Tim Bechert. “While COVID-19 precludes us from safely holding the event this year, we very much look forward to partnering with UNH and the NCAA again to serve as home of the Northeast Regionals in 2023 and 2025.”


----------



## 210

Just in case anyone reading this thread doesn't know, despite what that other poster has said Mark Divver is one of the (if not _the_) most connected hockey writers in all of the northeast. It's not like his hockey knowledge and all his connections stopped when the Providence Journal laid him off.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

210 said:


> Just in case anyone reading this thread doesn't know, despite what that other poster has said Mark Divver is one of the (if not _the_) most connected hockey writers in all of the northeast. It's not like his hockey knowledge and all his connections stopped when the Providence Journal laid him off.



the only part I question is why doesn't Divver put in a bid to buy a franchise, then.....

otherwise, What source are we talking about in regards to the Manchester return, that's been brought up, but nobody seems to want to confirm it


----------



## hurricanesfan123

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> the only part I question is why doesn't Divver put in a bid to buy a franchise, then.....
> 
> otherwise, What source are we talking about in regards to the Manchester return, that's been brought up, but nobody seems to want to confirm it




That doesn't make any sense. The guy has connections to people within the situation hutch.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

hurricanesfan123 said:


> That doesn't make any sense. The guy has connections to people within the situation hutch.



then what source are we talking about here, then....

no one said Manchester deserves a franchise...

or are u flat out lying here, hurricanesfan.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> then what source are we talking about here, then....
> 
> no one said Manchester deserves a franchise...
> 
> or are u flat out lying here, hurricanesfan.



the source is mark divver himself...


----------



## CrazyEddie20

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> the only part I question is why doesn't Divver put in a bid to buy a franchise, then.....




... the guy was a journalist. Do you know how much sportswriters actually make? Not famous sportswriters - real sportswriters, the guys who work for local papers, guys like Mark Divver.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

CrazyEddie20 said:


> ... the guy was a journalist. Do you know how much sportswriters actually make? Not famous sportswriters - real sportswriters, the guys who work for local papers, guys like Mark Divver.



no, Eddie:

the point is Manchester doesn't or may not want to pursue hockey at all... yes, but the "sources" SAID Manchester is returning but stopped short of providing what this forum requires: credible sources, not anonymous "hearsay"

something like the Worcester/Portland/ Newfoundland/ T-R/Coralville/Savannah threads.

could we have predicted Savannah without a credible source was coming. probably not.

it's like Brampton finally collapsing.... there's likely no chance another ownership takes a shot there once the Beast disappear.... pandemic or no pandemic


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Mark never said Manchester was returning to echl. He said he has heard of interest from several owners about going though the process to apply for a expansion team(before the pandemic).


----------



## hurricanesfan123

CrazyEddie20 said:


> ... the guy was a journalist. Do you know how much sportswriters actually make? Not famous sportswriters - real sportswriters, the guys who work for local papers, guys like Mark Divver.



don't waste your time. this is far from the first and last time this has come up


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Centrum Hockey said:


> Mark never said Manchester was returning to echl. He said he has heard of interest from several owners about going though the process to apply for a expansion team(before the pandemic).



but anonymous sources, Centrum, whether it's attributed to Divver or not, indirectly, isn't the end game for any market, never mind Manchester.

that's where I call OUT Divver for credibility purposes.

Manchester may not want hockey back at all, after what transpired between how the Kings transitioned away from direct own/operation, to solely an affiliate, then turned it over ownership wise to a group who had no clue how to operate a franchise, nevermind own one....

reminds me a bit of the Afr's and how they systemically destroyed Port Huron.... then Louisville, which got the AHL'S ATTENTION... and put them on our radar, never mind Florida's attention, and then how Elmira ended its time in the ECHL


----------



## 210

How anyone can question the credibility of an award-winning sports journalist like Mark Divver, who writes for NHL.com, is mind-boggling. This has to stop.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

210 said:


> How anyone can question the credibility of an award-winning sports journalist like Mark Divver, who writes for NHL.com, is mind-boggling. This has to stop.



sorry, but if he says it.... doesn't mean everyone buys what he's selling, 210


----------



## SemireliableSource

You're not buying what he's selling? Do you understand what legitimate journalism is? 

I don't even know why I'm bothering. Hutch was a lost cause YEARS ago.


----------



## mk80

So the Amarillo Bulls Tier II junior hockey team is moving after this season after being unable to negotiate a lease with their arena. (See the junior forum for more) But after doing some digging today I found this article from December 2020: Plans to update Amarillo civic center continue after voters denied original proposition

Quote from article:


> A major part of the Amarillo Plan is the tenant, which could be the Elmore Sports Group.... The Amarillo Plan has the support of the commissioner of the ECHL to bring a AA hockey team to Amarillo.


----------



## JMCx4

mk80 said:


> So the Amarillo Bulls Tier II junior hockey team is moving after this season after being unable to negotiate a lease with their arena. (See the junior forum for more) But after doing some digging today I found this article from December 2020: Plans to update Amarillo civic center continue after voters denied original proposition
> 
> Quote from article:
> 
> A major part of the Amarillo Plan is the tenant, which could be the Elmore Sports Group.... The Amarillo Plan has the support of the commissioner of the ECHL to bring a AA hockey team to Amarillo.



Grizzlies pulling up stakes & moving south?


----------



## 210

mk80 said:


> So the Amarillo Bulls Tier II junior hockey team is moving after this season after being unable to negotiate a lease with their arena. (See the junior forum for more) But after doing some digging today I found this article from December 2020: Plans to update Amarillo civic center continue after voters denied original proposition
> 
> Quote from article:



Great, now no one will take my bet.


----------



## mk80

JMCx4 said:


> Grizzlies pulling up stakes & moving south?




Now that's a connection I didn't expect! Wouldn't be good for Idaho if they did.



210 said:


> Great, now no one will take my bet.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

mk80 said:


> Now that's a connection I didn't expect! Wouldn't be good for Idaho if they did.




Or Rapid City.


----------



## Centrum Hockey

JMCx4 said:


> Grizzlies pulling up stakes & moving south?



Everybody is focusing on the wrong league. It is clearly going to be a unaffiliated AHL Pacific Division team. Where the other 7 Pacific Division teams can send players to relax and unwind during the season.


----------



## Captain Crash

Centrum Hockey said:


> Everybody is focusing on the wrong league. It is clearly going to be a unaffiliated AHL Pacific Division team. Where the other 7 Pacific Division teams can send players to relax and unwind during the season.




The Amarillo Admirals has a nice ring to it.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Centrum Hockey said:


> Everybody is focusing on the wrong league. It is clearly going to be a unaffiliated AHL Pacific Division team. Where the other 7 Pacific Division teams can send players to relax and unwind during the season.



too bad the Worcester Red Sox weren't contracted, Centrum


----------



## PCSPounder

Please to refresh my memory on whether one can own two ECHL teams?


----------



## 210

PCSPounder said:


> Please to refresh my memory on whether one can own two ECHL teams?



Yep...can own more than two too...


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

PCSPounder said:


> Please to refresh my memory on whether one can own two ECHL teams?



Deacon/ Dean MacDonald owns/has interest at least three..... Newfoundland, 3R and Coralville, I believe. now the question becomes how transparent are they in dealing with 2 of the 3, or are they autonomous in nature.

no other league allows it, that I'm aware of, PCS.... typically, a private ownership has to represent one team at a time.... or if the league perceives a conflict of interest which an owner is represent 2 teams in the same league at the same time.

the late Roy Boe comes to mind after owning Worcester, then starting working for Bridgeport, the AHL forced him to choose between them.... even though both eventually went to an O/O scenario and in the case of Bridgeport, upon Boe's passing did that transition to the Islanders officially commenced.


----------



## royals119

PCSPounder said:


> Please to refresh my memory on whether one can own two ECHL teams?



There is a rule that teams with shared ownerships can't trade with each other. The ECHL has had owners with multiple teams since it started, and apparently back in the day some owners would trade the best players from their non-playoff team to their playoff team at the deadline for 'future considerations'.


----------



## JMCx4

210 said:


> Yep...*can own more than two too*...



As long as said owner doesn't show up on the BoG's Zoom Call in a tu-tu. The League isn't that progressive yet.


----------



## 210

Whenever Hutch talks about Worcester hockey history I want to bash my head against my desk.

Can we all just agree that whenever he does he's wrong so I don't need to bother with a reply that will only result in the moderators getting involved? Thanks in advance.


----------



## JDogindy

210 said:


> Whenever Hutch talks about Worcester hockey history I want to bash my head against my desk.
> 
> Can we all just agree that whenever he does he's wrong so I don't need to bother with a reply that will only result in the moderators getting involved? Thanks in advance.




You know he sticks around so the mods remain entertained by our frustration.

Because everytime we call attention to it, it's us that get punished.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

210 said:


> Whenever Hutch talks about Worcester hockey history I want to bash my head against my desk.
> 
> Can we all just agree that whenever he does he's wrong so I don't need to bother with a reply that will only result in the moderators getting involved? Thanks in advance.



instead of Worcester hockey make that any hockey


----------



## royals119

210 said:


> Whenever Hutch talks about Worcester hockey history I want to bash my head against my desk.
> 
> Can we all just agree that whenever he does he's wrong so I don't need to bother with a reply that will only result in the moderators getting involved? Thanks in advance.



I'll second that motion. 

Maybe just reply to those posts with, and we will all know.


----------



## JMCx4

royals119 said:


> I'll second that motion.
> 
> Maybe just reply to those posts with, and we will all know.



But what if it's a 3-banger?


----------



## royals119

JMCx4 said:


> But what if it's a 3-banger?



This sounds like a fun game. Sort of like a minor league hockey board version of Yelp


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

should we updating the thread title to 31 or 32?


----------



## JMCx4

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> should we updating the thread title to 31 or 32?



I think it should read "XX" or "##" just so the Mods don't have to change the title every couple of months.


----------



## 210

JMCx4 said:


> But what if it's a 3-banger?



At my age that might take all week....


----------



## PCSPounder

Just an update on something posted way back on page 1.

Using Eugene’s proposal as a guide, and adding up comments from Tacoma and- a bit of a bad idea- listening to a guy who knows a guy in Bend, that Northwest rumor can be clarified as a junior effort, not a pro effort. That doesn’t answer what Idaho Falls is doing... we think. Some of you have seen the thread in the junior section. Eh.


----------



## JMCx4

PCSPounder said:


> ... Using Eugene’s proposal as a guide, and adding up comments from Tacoma and- a bit of a bad idea- listening to a guy who knows a guy in Bend, that Northwest rumor can be clarified as a junior effort, not a pro effort. That doesn’t answer what Idaho Falls is doing... we think. Some of you have seen the thread in the junior section. Eh.


----------



## royals119

PCSPounder said:


> Just an update on something posted way back on page 1.
> 
> Using Eugene’s proposal as a guide, and adding up comments from Tacoma and- a bit of a bad idea- listening to a guy who knows a guy in Bend, that Northwest rumor can be clarified as a junior effort, not a pro effort. That doesn’t answer what Idaho Falls is doing... we think. Some of you have seen the thread in the junior section. Eh.



FYI, you can get this ---> , by clicking the smiley face at the top of the post window, and then clicking "more smileys" at the bottom, and it is the 9th one - between  and .


----------



## PCSPounder

royals119 said:


> FYI, you can get this ---> , by clicking the smiley face at the top of the post window, and then clicking "more smileys" at the bottom, and it is the 9th one - between  and .




And I tried to delete those (along with the 2/3rds of the post I did delete) and couldn’t find where they hid. But now they most certainly belong.


----------



## Lake Simcoe Travels

Is there any hope that Norfolk Admirals get a new affiliation agreement anytime soon? The ownership group is new. What's the issue if any? I understand having an affiliation doesn't necessarily help personnel wise but the impression on the fans certainly helps.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Lake Simcoe Travels said:


> Is there any hope that Norfolk Admirals get an affiliation agreement anytime soon? The ownership group is new. What's the issue?



what do you mean about an affiliation agreement or an issue? not everyone is interested perhaps in aligning with Norfolk or it's not geographically a fit with those who do not subscribe to what the ECHL offers to be affiliated because it drives up the expense of the franchise.

what NHL Team is interested specifically in Norfolk..... that doesn't already have an existing agreement with an existing team, opt out or not.

they just chose to be independent after Nashville cut ties, it has nothing to do with who the ownership is in Norfolk.

the Capitals worked with them prior to their ascension to the AHL and subsequent change to the Blackhawks, then Tampa, then Anaheim, which bought the franchise and relocated it to San Diego.... the current iteration of the Admirals came from Bakersfield, an Edmonton affiliate until they swapped the Condors franchise to Norfolk when Anaheim bought the AHL Version, the Ducks had no owner/operation investment in Norfolk.

the ECHL allows independents, the AHL does not.

2) Savannah comes aboard in 2022/23 so there goes another affiliation.


----------



## 210

Lake Simcoe Travels said:


> Is there any hope that Norfolk Admirals get a new affiliation agreement anytime soon? The ownership group is new. What's the issue if any? I understand having an affiliation doesn't necessarily help personnel wise but the impression on the fans certainly helps.




I think with the new ownership group NHL/AHL teams would be more receptive to a potential affiliation there. I think some arena upgrades would help too, but that seems to be unlikely for now.


----------



## Atlantian

According to this article, Binghamton is having disputes with their arena and could be moving to Utica following the 21-22 season. The arena spokesperson said that they would not have trouble finding a hockey team as a tenant. Binghamton has been an AHL market for years, but do you see it dropping down like Worcester, Portland, and Adirondack? 
Potential move of AHL teams puts future of hockey in Binghamton in question


----------



## 210

Atlantian said:


> According to this article, Binghamton is having disputes with their arena and could be moving to Utica following the 21-22 season. The arena spokesperson said that they would not have trouble finding a hockey team as a tenant. Binghamton has been an AHL market for years, but do you see it dropping down like Worcester, Portland, and Adirondack?
> Potential move of AHL teams puts future of hockey in Binghamton in question



They were in the UHL for a number of years, so I think it's very possible they could move to the ECHL, especially if they waited a year. With a group already in place at the AHL level they probably wouldn't be forced to do so by the ECHL, but it might be in their best interest to do it anyway.


----------



## Atlantian

210 said:


> They were in the UHL for a number of years, so I think it's very possible they could move to the ECHL, especially if they waited a year. With a group already in place at the AHL level they probably wouldn't be forced to do so by the ECHL, but it might be in their best interest to do it anyway.



I think it is a great spot for a team if the AHL abandons the city. Within 7 hours bus of all NE teams and Wheeling (not Newfie), and I am sure fans are looking for stability after changing names and teams several times over their several decades long AHL history.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Atlantian said:


> According to this article, Binghamton is having disputes with their arena and could be moving to Utica following the 21-22 season. The arena spokesperson said that they would not have trouble finding a hockey team as a tenant. Binghamton has been an AHL market for years, but do you see it dropping down like Worcester, Portland, and Adirondack?
> Potential move of AHL teams puts future of hockey in Binghamton in question



nope, they did try the UHL at one point, Atlantian... before the Senators arrived there.

2) the AHL rarely allows 2 teams to share a market, never mind a territory.... it's why Providence didn't return for fifteen years after 50 years which preceded the creation of the AHL, AS THE then Rhode Island Reds were founded in 1926, which is today's Hartford Wolf*Pack, if it wasn't for that relocation to a group in Binghamton, in 1977, it's unlikely Hartford exists today.... the genesis was Spectra (which owns Portland outright) AND to a lesser extent, Hartford, which is why the Rangers affiliation is here since the arrival of the ECHL in Portland in 2018.

that genesis was Rhode Island was going to split arenas with the AHL Mariners, but Spectra owns that territory here so that's why the Reds became the Binghamton Dusters, then Whalers, Rangers and then the subsequent sale/relocation of the Hartford Whalers (Carolina Hurricanes) allowed the Rangers to shift from Binghamton to Hartford... in fact, the operator of the Devils that is the liason between Binghamton and New Jersey... also was a part of that transition from Binghamton to Hartford... and that is Tom Mitchell, and when the Senators made their intention to leave Binghamton for Belleville, he's that check.

New Jersey, like Calgary's affiliation history, is so off the charts at times, posters could write books on it, tbth...

the genesis of that Devils history is, they bought the AHL Mariners in 1982-83, from Spectra indirectly, relocated it to Utica in 1987, which lasted until 1993, so it's been posted, but New Jersey then took an interest in the Islanders AHL Franchise in Albany (this was well before Bridgeport was even considered, as the successor to New Haven, whereas that Coliseum no longer active, and now to the annals of history) .... now the Islanders AHL Affiliate WAS at RPI and was then flipped to the Times Union Center in Albany.... along with Al Lawrence and Walter Robb under the Capital District Sports banner.... which brought the Albany/Adirondack rivalry to full boil. the Devils later traded the Albany River Rats, to Carolina, who later bought the franchise and license to Charlotte, and that's how the Checkers went up from the ECHL to the AHL, to the present day. 

New Jersey then shifted their focus from Albany to Lowell, which is why the decree that no matter the market, the term "Devils" HAD to be part of any branding....Lowell then was summarily terminated due to an insistence by the trustees of the U MASS system decreed that the Riverhawks collegiate team in Hockey East would be the sole tenant of the Tsongas Center/Arena. so the Devils turned back to Albany, then Binghamton, when the decision referenced earlier by Ottawa to go to Belleville...

now the key to this is that Esche is the one who filed the trademark rights to the Devils branding, it doesn't mention either Vancouver, who owns the Comets franchise, or the Comets themselves.

the AHL has not received a request from either, Vancouver, the Comets, or Esche as to where this scenario will eventually resolve.


----------



## JMCx4

Atlantian said:


> I think it is a great spot for a team if the AHL abandons the city. Within 7 hours bus of all NE teams and Wheeling (not Newfie), and I am sure fans are looking for stability after changing names and teams several times over their several decades long AHL history.



Your travel argument is FAR more convincing than your stability argument. Go with your strength.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Atlantian said:


> I think it is a great spot for a team if the AHL abandons the city. Within 7 hours bus of all NE teams and Wheeling (not Newfie), and I am sure fans are looking for stability after changing names and teams several times over their several decades long AHL history.



Mohawk Valley (Utica) was a rival of the BC Icemen, in the same league (UHL)



Atlantian said:


> I think it is a great spot for a team if the AHL abandons the city. Within 7 hours bus of all NE teams and Wheeling (not Newfie), and I am sure fans are looking for stability after changing names and teams several times over their several decades long AHL history.



the AHL isn't going to allow either Binghamton or Utica to quickly fade from their league anytime soon..... Vancouver needs a city if this rumor comes to pass, nevermind an ownership group if Esche remains in Utica


----------



## Atlantian

JMCx4 said:


> Your travel argument is FAR more convincing than your stability argument. Go with your strength.



Averaging about 3500 through the past three seasons isn’t horrible. I think renewed rivalries from former AHL teams could help. Or we could have another Manchester. If they were to lose the AHL I think it could work. And it evens out the north and puts another team in the middle of their geographical footprint so it helps everyone else too. Plus, this is all speculation, as is everything on this thread.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Atlantian said:


> Averaging about 3500 through the past three seasons isn’t horrible. I think renewed rivalries from former AHL teams could help. Or we could have another Manchester. If they were to lose the AHL I think it could work. And it evens out the north and puts another team in the middle of their geographical footprint so it helps everyone else too. Plus, this is all speculation, as is everything on this thread.



which market Binghamton?

it's doubtful it would succeed and if Tom Mitchell wants to remain involved with that from the Binghamton side who would dare affiliate knowing that Mitchell is already having issues with a franchise he doesn't own, just operate.

you're also forgetting the AHL bylaw that Vancouver has not stated its intention to dissolve the contract with the Comets franchise, which they own....

there's no close team in the Southern Tier in the ECHL ALL of the teams are AHL based, Atlantian... where does a potential ECHL Franchise come from if the dispute is between Mitchell and the Devils.... if Esche lands the Devils affiliation...

Utica likely isn't a consideration to drop a league, either....


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

the AHL has been informed that the Devils will be leaving Binghamton or Newark, in this case after 2021, but nothing further about where the franchise will be relocated to....

Utica, for those unaware, is in the option year of a 3 series set of 2 year renewals but the choice has to be exercised by the Canucks, not the Comets or Esche specifically...


----------



## royals119

Atlantian said:


> Averaging about 3500 through the past three seasons isn’t horrible. I think renewed rivalries from former AHL teams could help. Or we could have another Manchester. If they were to lose the AHL I think it could work. And it evens out the north and puts another team in the middle of their geographical footprint so it helps everyone else too. Plus, this is all speculation, as is everything on this thread.



Interesting speculation, nonetheless. I think you point is valid, that Binghamton fans might be more accepting of an ECHL team if it is "sold" as a more stable alternative, and using a local name instead of changing the team name every time the AHL franchise changes. Maybe fans that are tired of being on the AHL affiliation spinning wheel would welcome a local team name, as well as renewed rivalries with Worcester, Adirondack, Maine, (maybe Manchester), and some new opponents. And the travel would be pretty equivalent, even though they would lose Utica, Rochester, WBS, Hershey and Syracuse, a division of Adirondack, T-R, Worcester, Maine, Reading, and Newfoundland (who pays the visiting teams costs) isn't a huge change. 

IF the Devils are pulling out of Bingo, they can either wait until the musical chairs game stops and see who they get, or if they are left without a seat at the table (to mix metaphors a bit) they can get an ECHL expansion team. I doubt the AHL would be terribly upset to lose a small market team in a tiny old building if the Devils or Canucks (or someone else) comes up with a larger market with a newer building - or just locates the AHL team in the NHL city.


----------



## nickp91

Binghamton is a perfect market for minor league hockey The city and its passionate fans deserve better


----------



## Atlantian

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> the AHL has been informed that the Devils will be leaving Binghamton or Newark, in this case after 2021, but nothing further about where the franchise will be relocated to....
> 
> Utica, for those unaware, is in the option year of a 3 series set of 2 year renewals but the choice has to be exercised by the Canucks, not the Comets or Esche specifically...



Here’s an article about it. Utica seems like the place for the Devils to move, but as hutch said, the Comets are there and we’ve heard nothing from Vancouver. Would they possibly switch markets? Either way, I don’t see Binghamton without a team for 21-22 be it ECHL or AHL. 
NJ Devils inform Binghamton ownership AHL team will be relocated


----------



## sabremike

The local TV station discovered that a trademark request for "Utica Devils" was recently submitted. There's your answer on what happens next.


----------



## JMCx4

royals119 said:


> ... Binghamton fans might be more accepting of an ECHL team if it is "sold" as a more stable alternative, and using a local name instead of changing the team name every time the AHL franchise changes. ...



Time for the Broome Dusters to sweep back into town.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

royals119 said:


> Interesting speculation, nonetheless. I think you point is valid, that Binghamton fans might be more accepting of an ECHL team if it is "sold" as a more stable alternative, and using a local name instead of changing the team name every time the AHL franchise changes. Maybe fans that are tired of being on the AHL affiliation spinning wheel would welcome a local team name, as well as renewed rivalries with Worcester, Adirondack, Maine, (maybe Manchester), and some new opponents. And the travel would be pretty equivalent, even though they would lose Utica, Rochester, WBS, Hershey and Syracuse, a division of Adirondack, T-R, Worcester, Maine, Reading, and Newfoundland (who pays the visiting teams costs) isn't a huge change.
> 
> IF the Devils are pulling out of Bingo, they can either wait until the musical chairs game stops and see who they get, or if they are left without a seat at the table (to mix metaphors a bit) they can get an ECHL expansion team. I doubt the AHL would be terribly upset to lose a small market team in a tiny old building if the Devils or Canucks (or someone else) comes up with a larger market with a newer building - or just locates the AHL team in the NHL city.



it's not speculation....

it's whether Tom Mitchell wants to operate a franchise in Binghamton....but that's problematic in both leagues because of the timeline involved or you run the risk, royals, of the BC Icemen 2.0 after the relocation by the Rangers to Hartford, of which Mitchell left Binghamton entirely for three years until 2000 and there was no guarantee that Ottawa was coming there.

the ECHL may not be wanting to deal with a Binghamton franchise, expansion or otherwise, knowing there are issues there.... how long was Elmira a ticking time bomb waiting to go off on Nichols and their arena after what transpired there for years, as well....



JMCx4 said:


> Time for the Broome Dusters to sweep back into town.



which, JM, AS I explained, may not be feasible to the current generation of fans in and or out of Binghamton that know the history of that market.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Atlantian said:


> Here’s an article about it. Utica seems like the place for the Devils to move, but as hutch said, the Comets are there and we’ve heard nothing from Vancouver. Would they possibly switch markets? Either way, I don’t see Binghamton without a team for 21-22 be it ECHL or AHL.
> NJ Devils inform Binghamton ownership AHL team will be relocated



I cannot see Binghamton landing a team, either existing, by transfer of territory, or expansion, Atlantian, that quickly based off how Newfoundland, and Worcester were created between petitioning the league to grant them a franchise get leases et all and everything associated with setting up a franchise in 4 to 6 months, even in a pandemic setting the way the Visions FCU Memorial Arena, AS it is now known as in Downtown Binghamton....

that arena from what I saw online was built and opened in 1973.... 4 years before Cross Arena was on the drawing board and built by Spectra here in Portland.

Manchester is gone, Brampton for all intents is gone..... and the arena operator that oversees that arena said they're a third party in whatever this dispute is between the Devils and the County.... it's the primary reason the County trustees were essentially abolished as arena operators in favor of ASM Direct or Spectra.

Portland should be a red flag warning to those who hold the belief that the County trustee management is the best option of managing an arena.... Wilkes Barre/Scranton came close to this same scenario with the Penguins and Luzerne County 6 or 7 years ago when Casey Plaza's lease came up for an extension....


----------



## Atlantian

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> I cannot see Binghamton landing a team, either existing, by transfer of territory, or expansion, Atlantian, that quickly based off how Newfoundland, and Worcester were created between petitioning the league to grant them a franchise get leases et all and everything associated with setting up a franchise in 4 to 6 months, even in a pandemic setting the way the Visions FCU Memorial Arena, AS it is now known as in Downtown Binghamton....



That’s my fault. I meant to say 22-23 season as I was under the impression they would stick to their contract expiring after next season. No way to build an ECHL organization in time for the 21-22 season unless they were to start today. I can see them joining with Savannah in two years.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Atlantian said:


> That’s my fault. I meant to say 22-23 season as I was under the impression they would stick to their contract expiring after next season. No way to build an ECHL organization in time for the 21-22 season unless they were to start today. I can see them joining with Savannah in two years.



oh sure but that's a challenge even now for existing teams who opted out.....like Portland and Atlanta, that's why I phrased it going back to Deacon's 1st team, the Growlers and how the Railers almost pulled that off in a year....

Worcester, caught a break really, with the relocation of the Pawsox setting up next to the DCU Center, that was just completed not long ago....since there was no baseball season in 2020 below the major league level....


----------



## wildcat48

Atlantian said:


> That’s my fault. I meant to say 22-23 season as I was under the impression they would stick to their contract expiring after next season. No way to build an ECHL organization in time for the 21-22 season unless they were to start today. I can see them joining with Savannah in two years.




If Binghamton wants an ECHL franchise they will get one. It would be a perfect place for the ECHL. They can build an independent brand based on the city that the fan base can support without the worried of affiliations changing every other year. It would fit geographically with Portland, Worcester, Adirondack and Reading. It would even fit with T-R.

I believe that as more AHL cities become former AHL cities it will open the door for the ECHL to expand into more stable markets. I even believe we will see Manchester back sooner than later.


----------



## JMCx4

This "Utica Devils" chat is taking up space in at least three different forums. Isn't there an HFB rule against that?


----------



## hurricanesfan123

JMCx4 said:


> This "Utica Devils" chat is taking up space in at least three different forums. Isn't there an HFB rule against that?



Who Cares.... It's not like much else is going on


----------



## JMCx4

hurricanesfan123 said:


> Who Cares.... It's not like much else is going on



We'll always have The COVIDs.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

JMCx4 said:


> This "Utica Devils" chat is taking up space in at least three different forums. Isn't there an HFB rule against that?



tbth....

there's still a segment of the fanbases that don't or won't recognize the AHL, OR how they operated over the years, just like the ECHL is looked at in a negative tone by those who aren't as informed as they probably should be, JM, IT is what it is.... some of us grew up in that league and we care about those fanbases just as we would support any hockey franchise and their fanbases if they needed it independent of league because we're all in this together.

it's just who we as a fanbase are, that we will support any market or franchise that may not need that support or feel like they're in this by themselves with no help or recourse....


----------



## PCSPounder

JMCx4 said:


> Grizzlies pulling up stakes & moving south?




For those who aren’t following recent developments elsewhere, a Vancouver radio station mentioned SLC as one possible destination for their AHL affiliate given the apparent move of the Devils into Utica (someone still wanting the Devils affiliate really does lead to , but to each their own). Abbotsford and Prescott Valley were the other sites mentioned.

So if this Amarillo thing happens, it’s the other shoe dropping.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

wildcat48 said:


> If Binghamton wants an ECHL franchise they will get one. It would be a perfect place for the ECHL. They can build an independent brand based on the city that the fan base can support without the worried of affiliations changing every other year. It would fit geographically with Portland, Worcester, Adirondack and Reading. It would even fit with T-R.
> 
> I believe that as more AHL cities become former AHL cities it will open the door for the ECHL to expand into more stable markets. I even believe we will see Manchester back sooner than later.



it's just convincing those NHL Clubs that haven't considered the ECHL that it's an option available.... but like I said is 2021/22 realistically doable knowing what has transpired to date this week alone.... and is Mitchell wanting to commit to that option if that becomes a reality....

the AHL/Howson can only go so far here publically if they want a team in Binghamton, just as Crelin does in the E, as we've seen with Savannah most recently that slid through everyone's radar as to how fast it became a reality.


----------



## Atlantian

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> it's just convincing those NHL Clubs that haven't considered the ECHL that it's an option available.... but like I said is 2021/22 realistically doable knowing what has transpired to date this week alone.... and is Mitchell wanting to commit to that option if that becomes a reality....
> 
> the AHL/Howson can only go so far here publically if they want a team in Binghamton, just as Crelin does in the E, as we've seen with Savannah most recently that slid through everyone's radar as to how fast it became a reality.



It’s definitely late to get something going for next season. I think it’s likely that Binghamton will stay vacant for 21-22 and go over all their options for the 22-23 season. But I believe they will have a team by 22-23, whether it’s AHL or ECHL is hard to say.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Atlantian said:


> It’s definitely late to get something going for next season. I think it’s likely that Binghamton will stay vacant for 21-22 and go over all their options for the 22-23 season. But I believe they will have a team by 22-23.



yup.... if that's the direction Mitchell wants to go in, but from the AHL side of it, as we've said.... even if you take the public statement Mitchell made once he was informed that the Devils were pulling the franchise, and then not knowing if "Binghamton" would go the way of Manchester and Brampton, where in essence, those ownerships ceded the franchise back to the League... and as we know in Brampton's case, it's expected to be terminated as a franchise at the end of the current season...


----------



## bleedblue94

With the timing of the way things have played out recently in Binghamton I think you may see a desperation move for the 21-22 season just to have a tenant there. It's a really rough situation without a lot of time to figure it out and buildings need tenants to remain open for the community for other usages and to be an economic driver of sorts for their area. The next few months should be interesting to watch


----------



## JMCx4

bleedblue94 said:


> ... The next few months should be interesting to watch



No crystal ball needed to predict that. Silly Season doesn't pause for the pandemic.


----------



## Atlantian

In the AHL BOG meeting today, the relocation of Utica to Abbotsford and Binghamton to Utica were approved, leaving Bingo open as of right now for the 21-22 season. Obviously, it is likely too late for the E to put a team there for the 21-22 season, but could we see them pursue that market for the 22-23 season? Binghamton will definitely be looking at all of their options, and it is likely another AHL team could be interested in the market, but right now a prime market is open for the taking.


----------



## bleedblue94

I know of a group that has contacted the ECHL about bringing a team to Binghamton in the future. Will be interesting to see where those talks go.


----------



## hurricanesfan123

safe enough to be a linked source


----------



## Atlantian

hurricanesfan123 said:


> safe enough to be a linked source




I saw that too. Would be very interesting if Bingo and Manchester join in the next couple seasons. Really would pack the northeast


----------



## Atlantian

Does anyone remember how soon before the 18-19 season Newfoundland was granted acceptance? I remember it being a short timeframe.


----------



## Roadhog

Atlantian said:


> Does anyone remember how soon before the 18-19 season Newfoundland was granted acceptance? I remember it being a short timeframe.



March 2018, but they had a tentative agreement with the league in January.

The ECHL franchise was conditionally approved for the Stanford-led group pending an arena deal but was delayed in late January 2018 after a dispute with the St. John's Edge ownership group over arena rights that led to arbitration.[7] After the lease issue was settled, the ECHL officially approved St. John's for entry into the league on March 13, 2018, to begin with the 2018–19 season, placing them in the North Division of the Eastern Conference.[


----------



## JMCx4

hurricanesfan123 said:


> *safe enough to be a linked source*




I never trust a guy with a 3-digit number in his nom de plume.


----------



## PCSPounder

JMCx4 said:


> I never trust a guy with a 3-digit number in his nom de plume.




You know... Mexican futbol clubs assign 3-digit numbers to their youth academy players. It’s always kind of interesting when one or more of them are playing for the first team.

(This is how I REALLY reach to flatter.)


----------



## Centrum Hockey

bleedblue94 said:


> I know of a group that has contacted the ECHL about bringing a team to Binghamton in the future. Will be interesting to see where those talks go.



Professional hockey could make a comeback in Binghamton


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Atlantian said:


> Does anyone remember how soon before the 18-19 season Newfoundland was granted acceptance? I remember it being a short timeframe.



if I remember right:

Both Worcester and Newfoundland took multiple years before being approved.... Portland and Spectra went a different direction to achieve the same goal....

but as I recall, Atlantian.... Half the season was gone before Rucker had completed either the application was approved and then deferred to the next season... 16/17 WAS the initial reports just like Savannah was

or the subsequential announcement that Williams had with TNSE, and the exit by Montreal to Laval.


----------



## bleedblue94

Atlantian said:


> I saw that too. Would be very interesting if Bingo and Manchester join in the next couple seasons. Really would pack the northeast



Interesting seeing so many of the older 90s ahl cities continue going this direction. Have to think the limit revenue streams in some of these locations are just more conducive to an ECHL level product. I understand geography is very much in play but it is hard to see some of these older 90s ahlers compete with Palm Springs ha


----------



## ckg927

Atlantian said:


> I saw that too. Would be very interesting if Bingo and Manchester join in the next couple seasons. Really would pack the northeast




Yep. POTENTIALLY, you'd see a division like this...

Binghamton
Manchester
Newfoundland
Portland
Reading
Worcester


----------



## jabberoski

ckg927 said:


> Yep. POTENTIALLY, you'd see a division like this...
> 
> Binghamton
> Manchester
> Newfoundland
> Portland
> Reading
> Worcester



You forgot Adirondack and Trois-Rivieres


----------



## Atlantian

I get that we're focused on Bingo right now, but what happens to Bridgeport when the Islanders move them to Nassau? Thinking they come down too?


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Atlantian said:


> I get that we're focused on Bingo right now, but what happens to Bridgeport when the Islanders move them to Nassau? Thinking they come down too?



what.

NASSAU Coliseum will never, ever, be a hockey arena again.....besides the Islanders affiliate is Worcester, Atlantian....

the Coliseum is likely being imploded or going to be strictly a concert venue.

hence the NYCB Live at the Nassau County Veterans Memorial Coliseum after the illfated stint in Brooklyn.... while the Counties rejected a replacement.

UBS Arena @ Belmont Park IS READY TO roll by now.....

otherwise, why would the Coliseum list 1972-2021 if the Islanders are moving to Belmont Park.

the Coliseum is equivalent to what Izod Center was to New Jersey once the Devils chose Newark.


----------



## Atlantian

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> NASSAU Coliseum will never, ever, be a hockey arena again



Hutch said it so now I *know* the Islanders are moving their AHL team there within 5 years

But for real, Nassau just recently underwent millions in renovations and it is reported that they will need a pro hockey tenant to stay above water. Once the Isles move to Belmont, within 5 years their AHL team will be in Nassau, and the city of Bridgeport will be in the ECHL (likely not affiliated with the Islanders)


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Atlantian said:


> Hutch said it so now I *know* the Islanders are moving their AHL team there within 5 years
> 
> But for real, Nassau just recently underwent millions in renovations and it is reported that they will need a pro hockey tenant to stay above water. Once the Isles move to Belmont, within 5 years their AHL team will be in Nassau, and the city of Bridgeport will be in the ECHL (likely not affiliated with the Islanders)



that's been a rumor/urban legend for years, Atlantian.....

none of that is true:

if it was Bridgeport would've been gone by now and followed Newfoundland, Worcester and Portland down to the ECHL.....


WHEN Bridgeport joined and essentially replaced New Haven as the rival to Hartford it was a 20 year lease.

I suspect the Islanders also operate Webster Bank Arena through their parent company


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Atlantian said:


> Hutch said it so now I *know* the Islanders are moving their AHL team there within 5 years
> 
> But for real, Nassau just recently underwent millions in renovations and it is reported that they will need a pro hockey tenant to stay above water. Once the Isles move to Belmont, within 5 years their AHL team will be in Nassau, and the city of Bridgeport will be in the ECHL (likely not affiliated with the Islanders)



maybe we'll relocate Gwinnett to Manchester, then, based off that flawed logic/urban legend, then.... and Cobb County will have no more chances for pro hockey, since Metro Atlanta won't be given an opportunity in the next century.

think about that


----------



## Atlantian

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> maybe we'll relocate Gwinnett to Manchester, then, based off that flawed logic/urban legend, then.... and Cobb County will have no more chances for pro hockey, since Metro Atlanta won't be given an opportunity in the next century.
> 
> think about that



I have no idea what you are trying to express here. My reasoning is mostly sound and based in fact, especially with the rebrand of the Sound Tigers. Then you just respond spewing nonsensical bullshit as always. Also, the Gladiators are not going anywhere as long as the current owner owns the team, just to put that out there.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Atlantian said:


> I have no idea what you are trying to express here. My reasoning is mostly sound and based in fact, especially with the rebrand of the Sound Tigers. Then you just respond spewing nonsensical bullshit as always. Also, the Gladiators are not going anywhere as long as the current owner owns the team, just to put that out there.



uh, excuse me:

but where did the Connecticut Post announce the Bridgeport franchise is leaving for Nassau?


remember It's that newspaper that broke the story about the rebrand.... there's no truth to the legend that Bridgeport's being relocated, not in 5 years....

once the Islanders season ends, Atlantian.... so does Nassau Coliseum.... Newsday has reported as early as last September that Mastrianni, who's the lease holder which allowed the Islanders to split their schedule between Barclays and the Coliseum.... that's why the Islanders were given clearance in this pandemic to give the Coliseum its final sendoff.

OVG, is in play here, just as they are with Seattle and Climate Pledge Arena as ASM Direct MAY BE the next operator of the coliseum...

even the website at the Coliseum is not operationable since the final Islanders regular season home game so if the venue is downsized as has been reported into a concert venue, It's widely known that the Coliseum as it stands now has likely or is likely no longer classified as a stadium venue...

which is why I don't believe the reports that Bridgeport is leaving for the Coliseum when Webster Bank Arena is more modern and compatible.

that legend was placed there in case the Islanders had issues with the arena in Bridgeport, like you've seen crop up in other markets LIKE Worcester/Portland/Binghamton that are now solved....


----------



## ckg927

jabberoski said:


> You forgot Adirondack and Trois-Rivieres




You're right. My bad.


----------



## royals119

So the "path to 32" looks like this? (Using the most recent rumors and expansions that are already announced)



*North**South**Central**West*NewfoundlandNorfolkToledoKansas CityMaineGreenvilleWheelingAllen3 RiversSouth CarolinaCincyTulsaWorcesterAtlantaIndyWichitaAdirondackJacksonvilleFt WayneRapid CityReadingOrlandoK-ZooIdahoBinghamtonFlorida (Estero)CoralvilleUtahManchesterSavannahBridgeportRichmond
[TBODY]
[/TBODY]
Bridgeport and Richmond being the least likely at the moment, obviously.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

royals119 said:


> So the "path to 32" looks like this? (Using the most recent rumors and expansions that are already announced)
> 
> 
> 
> *North**South**Central**West*NewfoundlandNorfolkToledoKansas CityMaineGreenvilleWheelingAllen3 RiversSouth CarolinaCincyTulsaWorcesterAtlantaIndyWichitaAdirondackJacksonvilleFt WayneRapid CityReadingOrlandoK-ZooIdahoBinghamtonFlorida (Estero)CoralvilleUtahManchesterSavannahBridgeportRichmond
> [TBODY]
> [/TBODY]Bridgeport and Richmond being the least likely at the moment, obviously.




which Leads to the next option:

are there still 7 NHL/AHL Affiliations available that haven't been spoken for now that Seattle is aboard and which of those are interested or been contacted and is that a guarantee that the above list will be accurate in 5 years without losing an existing franchise.


----------



## royals119

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> which Leads to the next option:
> 
> are there still 7 NHL/AHL Affiliations available that haven't been spoken for now that Seattle is aboard and which of those are interested or been contacted



I would say we will likely know closer to the beginning of the season. With a lot of ECHL teams not actually operating, and AHL teams in flux, the affiliation changes likely happen even later than usual. 



> is that a guarantee that the above list will be accurate in 5 years without losing an existing franchise.



Nope - no guarantees at this level, as you well know. Just speculation about what might happen.


----------



## sabremike

The league should consider putting a team in Buffalo because it's the single biggest market without a pro hockey team, I bet it would do great!


----------



## sabremike

Atlantian said:


> I get that we're focused on Bingo right now, but what happens to Bridgeport when the Islanders move them to Nassau? Thinking they come down too?



Even though people have speculated this will happen I doubt it because even with an AHL tennant the place is a complete white elephant/money pit and the land it sits on is far more valuable than the land it sits on.


----------



## JMCx4

sabremike said:


> Even though people have speculated this will happen I doubt it because even with an AHL tennant the place is a complete white elephant/money pit and *the land it sits on is far more valuable than the land it sits on.*



Is this one of those wacky "Sum ergo sum" philosophical arguments?


----------



## sabremike

JMCx4 said:


> Is this one of those wacky "Sum ergo sum" philosophical arguments?



Oops! Obviously meant arena with the last part.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

sabremike said:


> Even though people have speculated this will happen I doubt it because even with an AHL tennant the place is a complete white elephant/money pit and the land it sits on is far more valuable than the land it sits on.




If the AHL leaves, I wouldn't be surprised if Webster Bank Arena goes the way of the New Haven Coliseum within a few years of that departure. No one watches Fairfield basketball, and Sacred Heart is building a rink on campus. There's not much else locally that will draw people to that building. Heck, I lived 25 miles away for five years and never went to a game there.


----------



## PCSPounder

sabremike said:


> The league should consider putting a team in Buffalo because it's the single biggest market without a pro hockey team, I bet it would do great!




This hits with the piercing of a Jack Eichel primal scream. We’re here for hugs if necessary.


----------



## Atlantian

So once the Coyotes move to Houston after this season the ECHL is totally gonna take that market right?
'Point of no return': Glendale to boot Coyotes from Gila River Arena after 2021-22 season


----------



## Centrum Hockey

Atlantian said:


> So once the Coyotes move to Houston after this season the ECHL is totally gonna take that market right?
> 'Point of no return': Glendale to boot Coyotes from Gila River Arena after 2021-22 season



Maybe they will just remove the location designation from the road runners so they can become a traveling team. It will allow the valley of the sun to continue to host a few high quality AHL Pacific Division contests a year.


----------

