# Anyone hear of expansion/merger plans for ECHL, CHL, SPHL FOR 2013-14?



## paul-laus

I know it's eaTrly, but has anyone heard of any expansion plans for the leagues in the thread title. I know the SPHL commisioner had mentioned last summer that league would add anywhere between 1 and 3 teams for next season. One would think that they would want to add 1 for certain to even out the disparity. 

As far as the CHL goes, St Charles is an automatic but I've been hearing about Casper Wy. in a relocation of a former Texas team that's gone dormant. This would make sense for the CHL to get up to an even number with St. Charles coming in. All current teams returning for next season isn't a guarantee, but it's starting to look like Quad will be back although Bloomington and Arizona are struggling. Anyone know of anything? Indianapolis?

The ECHL is the most interesting. They've capped membership at 26 with future expansion targeted for the Western Conference. Do they look at further poaching from the CHL with markets like Witchita, Allen, Rapid City, Missouri etc. Or do they go back to markets like Fresno or San Diego? I just hope that after 8 years, the ECHL throws in the joke of the towel that is the Reno Raiders tire fire year after year. One thing that is interesting is that on hockey forums, there is mention of the ECHL returning to a dormant market. Columbia Inferno?

Any info or thoughts are welcome. Thanks.


----------



## mk80

I think for the most part it is a little too early for the talk of expansion/ contraction. 

One thing I do know as far the the SPHL is that the commisioner of the league had made comments about hoping to add Bosier/Shreveport a few weeks ago. I don't know if it will happen but, it was talked about.


----------



## ForsbergForever

I'm pretty sure the CHL will be contracting further this summer as it continues its slow journey into the grave. The SPHL seems primed to expand but I think a lot of markets that would be ideal for it are already occupied by the ECHL's southern division. Winston-Salem, Roanoke, Richmond could all be options for franchises, though they all have previously had and lost teams...


----------



## paul-laus

I do like the Bosier-Shreveport idea to be quite honest for the SPHL. I don't really see the CHL dropping below ten teams at this point. Quad has finalized an arena deal for next season, and even if Arizona and Bloomington do fold, St.Charles is coming and thy probably would bring in at least one other to even out numbers. Like I said earlier, Casper maybe.


----------



## JB51Hockey

I'm wondering if the ECHL would pick up the Rapid City Rush from the CHL? Rapid City to Loveland is a 6 hour drive so it does seem a bit far fetched but it could happen. If Arizona wasn't second to last in attendance I'd think they would also pick them up.


----------



## MonsterSurge

I believe Bossier-Shreveport will return. I've also heard Baton Rouge and Mobile. (SPHL)


----------



## HansH

mkhockeygoalie said:


> I think for the most part it is a little too early for the talk of expansion/ contraction.



It may be too early to talk about teams folding, but it's almost too LATE to only start talking about expansion for 2013-14. Historically, teams that have announced more than a full season before they take the ice do much better with attendance and marketing than teams just hurriedly announced in an off-season. The best time to announce expansion teams would be RIGHT NOW, while people are in a hockey-going mood, and maybe piggyback off the NHL's return.

That said, I'm more out of the loop than usual, and have only heard things on boards, mostly CHL St. Charles.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

The ECHL might pick off a team from the CHL, but truth be told I think they're just sitting still and seeing when/if that league finally collapses and they have free range over the teams of their choice.


----------



## LadyStanley

jeben51 said:


> I'm wondering if the ECHL would pick up the Rapid City Rush from the CHL? Rapid City to Loveland is a 6 hour drive so it does seem a bit far fetched but it could happen. If Arizona wasn't second to last in attendance I'd think they would also pick them up.




It's ~6 hours from SF to Ontario in California. (8+ hours SF to Vegas), so this is not out of other travel in ECHL.

But I'm guessing that until league "fails" or ownership decides to try to "upgrade" to ECHL that much will happen.


----------



## JB51Hockey

LadyStanley said:


> It's ~6 hours from SF to Ontario in California. (8+ hours SF to Vegas), so this is not out of other travel in ECHL.
> 
> But I'm guessing that until league "fails" or ownership decides to try to "upgrade" to ECHL that much will happen.




But what I'm saying is Rapid City's closet team is in Loveland which is a 6 hour drive, the next farthest is Salt Lake to Boise, which is 5. Okay, it's not that much of a difference. Forget what I said, Rapid City looks good.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Haven't heard anything but as far as contraction goes I would be shocked if Elmira and Wheeling return, possibly even Trenton.


----------



## Avsrule2022

jeben51 said:


> But what I'm saying is Rapid City's closet team is in Loveland which is a 6 hour drive, the next farthest is Salt Lake to Boise, which is 5. Okay, it's not that much of a difference. Forget what I said, Rapid City looks good.




Colorado's closest drive is 8 hours to Utah right now. Travel really doesn't matter in the West, no matter what you are going to have to take some long trips. 60 hour drive from Vegas to Alaska....


----------



## mk80

We could possibly have an entirely new Single A league....

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/United-Professional-Hockey-League/515127015188435?fref=ts 

Hopefully this one would be run the right way like the SPHL and not end up being a joke like the FHL, EPHL or AAHL.


----------



## LadyStanley

Avsrule2002 said:


> 60 hour drive from Vegas to Alaska....




Which is why teams fly to/from Alaska. (Even Alaska buses between cities once they're in lower 48, usually.)

Idaho/Utah -- "one off" (series) usually are far enough away from California teams that they fly into those cities.

But they do fly commercial, not charter.


----------



## Kanka

mkhockeygoalie said:


> We could possibly have an entirely new Single A league....
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/United-Professional-Hockey-League/515127015188435?fref=ts
> 
> Hopefully this one would be run the right way like the SPHL and not end up being a joke like the FHL, EPHL or AAHL.




Well, the league is off to a great start! It's always a good sign when a new pro league starts on Facebook  

I have played in beer leagues that have real websites. 

But back to real topic; 

I would like to see Bossier-Shreveport get a club back, but how much longer will the CHL be around? Will the ECHL eventually overtake the entire 'AA' market?


----------



## JB51Hockey

Rumor has it, Williamsport Outlaws of the Federal Hockey League are relocating to Richmond, Virginia, and joining the SPHL


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

jeben51 said:


> *Rumor has it, Williamsport Outlaws of the Federal Hockey League* are relocating to Richmond, Virginia, and joining the SPHL




LOL, knew that wouldn't last.


----------



## CrazyEddie20

jeben51 said:


> Rumor has it, Williamsport Outlaws of the Federal Hockey League are relocating to Richmond, Virginia, and joining the SPHL




Source?

If they barely have the money to operate in the FHL, they don't have the money to join the SPHL, much less operate the team.


----------



## arlingtonway

There is no source... Best I can tell from making the message board rounds it was started on the FHL fourm by someone who said it was the word around bowman field....

MOD


----------



## KevFist

Just a note....."I heard from someone" or "A bunch of people were saying" are not legit sources. If it's not published in media in a newspaper or online, then it's not a source. Anything else is just heresay. Rumors need to be clear that they're rumors


----------



## KevFist

I keep hoping the SPHL will locate in Pelham, AL since there's a new leadership team in that city. Bobby Hayes, the old mayor of Pelham, got burned pretty bad by the WHA2. With the popularity of University of Alabama Hockey around here, it seems like the 3,000 seat arena would be the perfect SPHL venue...Plus, there's a team nearby in Huntsville.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Not that I overly care(because I don't)but almost every rumor at this level of sports has no media coverage until it happens. I've spent various time on minor league sports forums in my day. They are chop full of rumors. I guess I don't understand what the big deal is? I can't imagine that the teams read this so I don't see lawsuits ever forthcoming. If they had or have, you would have heard about it before 2013. 

As for Albaama....

They would mistake it for SEC Football. I mean for whatever its worth i'm not a hockey guy and that regionalization arguement to me doesn't matter. Theres just certain places you look at as an outsider and know it would be over the locals eads and wont work.


----------



## KevFist

BK Triple Threat said:


> Not that I overly care(because I don't)but almost every rumor at this level of sports has no media coverage until it happens. I've spent various time on minor league sports forums in my day. They are chop full of rumors. I guess I don't understand what the big deal is? I can't imagine that the teams read this so I don't see lawsuits ever forthcoming. If they had or have, you would have heard about it before 2013.
> 
> As for Albaama....
> 
> *They would mistake it for SEC Football. I mean for whatever its worth i'm not a hockey guy and that regionalization arguement to me doesn't matter. Theres just certain places you look at as an outsider and know it would be over the locals eads and wont work*.




yeah...... Whatever.....

In Alabama, we have the southernmost NCAA hockey team at University of Alabama-Huntsville. Huntsville also has the Huntsville Havoc SPHL team and a rather robust junior hockey program that produced NHL player Jared Ross.

Birmingham was home to the WHA Birmingham Bulls in the 70's which played to sold out crowds. Gordie Howe scored his 1,000th goal in our barn here. The ECHL Birmingham Bulls were a successful franchise until the ownership decided to run the team into the ground as a tax writeoff. We also have a large junior program here, as well as three adult rec leagues and a high school league.

Plus, just two weeks ago, the Pelham arena was sold out for three consecutive nights for Alabama v. Auburn CLUB hockey..... Alabama averages around 2500 playing CLUB hockey in Pelham.

A little research goes a long way.


----------



## wildhairyguy

CrazyEddie20 said:


> Have I watched it? Yes. Would I pay to watch it? No.
> 
> If we want hockey in this country to grow, schools that play in the ACHA need to step up and play real college hockey.




So you should GROW hockey by eliminating the ACHA??? THAT makes sense. Here we go - if you don't play 'elite' then don't play at all! That's how to grow a sport! 

Do your research - many NCAA schools with hockey teams also have ACHA teams. And many ACHA schools cannot qualify for NCAA status for their teams.


----------



## jameswrjobe53

please relocate to Richmond. I will go to games!


----------



## Stars99Lobo37

MonsterSurge said:


> I believe Bossier-Shreveport will return. I've also heard Baton Rouge and Mobile. (SPHL)




If the 'Bugs (or whoever) do return, it better not be at the CenturyTel Center. That place was the absolute death of the team. No idea where they would go to instead though. Wish the Hirsch was still operational. Rent at the CTC would have to be way lower than it was. 

Much rather be in the SPHL than in the CHL. Have had too many issues with that league.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

That must have been quite the college basketball game you attended, 99-37. LOL

Anyway as for the SPHL whats the chances that league ever becomes "AA"?


----------



## Frank Booth

Apparently the Central league will have a team in Brampton to replace the OHL Battalion.

http://www.newstalk1010.com/News/localnews/blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10494058
http://www.centralhockeyleague.com/news/?article_id=9177

Good luck with that.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

huh.... that's unexpected.... and going to be killer to their road schedule....


----------



## ForsbergForever

No Fun Shogun said:


> huh.... that's unexpected.... and going to be killer to their road schedule....




Shouldn't be too bad, the closest team to Brampton is Bloomington, just 982 kilometers away...

https://www.google.ca/#hl=en&safe=o...74,d.dmQ&fp=7326c3a62f8db7be&biw=1366&bih=653

Think of how scenic the 9.5 hr bus ride will be. 
(Sarcasm aside, is there a single league exec in all of minor-pro hockey that has half a brain as far as how to run a league?)


----------



## HansH

It's less idiotic than I initially thought -- I thought the CenHL team would be going up against an established OHL team (http://www.battalionhockey.com/), but I'm told that OHL team is relocating to North Bay for the 2013-14 season (http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/19/brampton-battalion-move-to-north-bay-approved), leaving Brampton open for this CenHL team.

It's still complete idiocy, though.


----------



## Loosie

HansH said:


> It's less idiotic than I initially thought -- I thought the CenHL team would be going up against an established OHL team (http://www.battalionhockey.com/), but I'm told that OHL team is relocating to North Bay for the 2013-14 season (http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/19/brampton-battalion-move-to-north-bay-approved), leaving Brampton open for this CenHL team.
> 
> It's still complete idiocy, though.




It is, the Battalion couldn't draw...and that's Major Junior hockey in Canada. Third tier minor pro is going to draw even less. I give them one year...maybe two.


----------



## Mightygoose

Only way I can see the Central League work in Brampton is if they are affiliated with the Leafs.

As the Leafs don't have a AA level team underneath the Marlies. It could provide some depth to the Leafs farms system.

Don't get me wrong, the team will be a wash in red ink. Who knows, perhaps MLSE will buy the team once the current owner bails.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

For their sake, they better be praying that they land affiliation with Toronto.


----------



## battfan888

I am a Battalion STH and even I think this isnt smart.
I mean while most people in the GTA are ignorant to any non Leafs hockey they all know what the OHL is. 

How many of those Leaf ignorant fans have even heard of the CHL.

A bunch of people with more money than sense.
That said I will be checking them out since I wont have a OHL hometown team to cheer for anymore.

http://hockeybrampton.com/


----------



## HarbinIceHogs

How about a Canadian Division in the Central Hockey League then.. I don't think a CHL team in Brampton will fly but they need opponents that are closer... I don't watch the CHL, but I'll assume they need a rink of 3000 to play in. So I purpose this Division i think you'd need 5 teams:

Brampton 525,000 pop. - Powerade Center 5000 Capacity
Brantford - 92,000 pop - Civic Centre 2981...
Newmarket - 85,000 - pop Recreation Complex 3700
Thunder Baypop 110 000 pop - Fort Williams Gardens 4600
Waterloo 100 000 pop - Memorial Rec Complex 3500/Maybe a team in Northern Michigan... Sault Ste. Marie, MI 15,000 pop - Norris Center 4000...

Maybe Even Cornwall.. but thinking realistically, one Canadian Team will not make it alone. I think a Canadian Division is its best chance, although a slim one..lol


----------



## PCSPounder

Someone's asking for sense in hockey?

I've gone through a bunch of league histories in the last month. Always the same story: someone desperately looking for a pro league (or something on the scale of OHL/Canadian HL) meets a pro league desperately looking to build up numbers. Whether Canada or US, this ALWAYS happens. 

I even get the sense that some of the people who make these decisions are anything but ignorant of the history, then find themselves repeating them due to lack of other real options. It's easy to talk about "we should be in market X and market Y nearby," it's freaking hard to find an owner. This is, without a doubt, the lot of a hockey league and the lot of hockey fans in many given cities.


----------



## vanuck

Kanka said:


> I would like to see Bossier-Shreveport get a club back, but how much longer will the CHL be around? W*ill the ECHL eventually overtake the entire 'AA' market?*




I've wondered about this too.


----------



## paul-laus

I didn't see the ECHL all-star game as I normally do, but normally McKenna is interviewed between the second and third periods and adresses the health of the league and expansion etc. Did anybody see this? Did he even mention expansion whatsoever? I know that Wikipedia is about as insignificant a source as one could get, but wiki's ECHL page does mention a possibility of returning to a market that's been dormant the last few years. Does anyone have a clue on this? I can only think of Columbia and Reno as options here. 

Is it possible that the ECHL is just waiting on the CHL to falter as in past years to poach their top franchises? I guess Witchita, Tulsa, Rapid City, Allen, and Independence would all be good options here. 

And absoultely no word yet on the SPHL except the potential demise of Augusta even though their comissioner almost assured expansion of anywhere between 1 and 3 teams for 2013-14. They would have announced any expansion plans by now surely wouldn't they?


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

LOL....Reno is a joke. Thats never gunna happen.

I thought Columbia returned membership?


----------



## paul-laus

crickets chirping huh?


----------



## PCSPounder

BK Triple Threat said:


> LOL....Reno is a joke. Thats never gunna happen.




There was a point in the last 18 months when Reno people found out US Olympic Committee would take 2022 Olympic bids and rumors started flying out there. It seemed like something would happen.

The problem: Reno built a ballpark and got AAA baseball. It's one of those tax increment financing deals where taxes on what they thought would be redeveloped surrounding blocks of land (just on the edge of downtown) were expected to cover the bonds that were sold. That redevelopment hasn't happened, and the agreement then has the city covering the debt and, of course, Reno can't. So the Reno Aces wins the PCL and the AAA championship game and then the owner threatens to leave unless the city covers the debt. The city actually called the bluff (not a lot of empty stadia hanging around), they're working on a new refinancing deal at this point. It's too bad, the ballpark has a certain simplicity with utility and a nice bar area, but owners be scoundrels.

So, Reno building a hockey arena after that? Probably not.

BTW, yes, Reno Events Center looks like it could accomodate hockey, and while basketball is played in the building, it (1) probably doesn't make its own ice, and (2) the concert industry is actually the primary tenant, and they want ALL the Saturdays.


----------



## paul-laus

If stated above is the case with almost zero chance of getting an arena built and no ice making equipment in the current arena, why continually shell out every year exobitant fees to maintain a hold on the dormant franchise. It seems like the ultimate waste of money with no light at the end of the tunnel.


----------



## HarbinIceHogs

PCSPounder said:


> BTW, yes, Reno Events Center looks like it could accomodate hockey, and while basketball is played in the building, it (1) probably doesn't make its own ice, and (2) the concert industry is actually the primary tenant, and they want ALL the Saturdays.




Sure a hockey rink could be situated in the floor area. It looks like Arena football has been set up there. But of all the info I have looked at nothing shows that there is Ice Making Equipment under that floor. 

That Being said, a few hundred thousand dollars and it could be done. Money could get you anything..lol


----------



## paul-laus

Still nothing huh? In past years there was wayyyy more known in terms of potential expansion plans for the various leagues at this point in the season. Even last year, both San Fran and Orlando were announced by this point for the ECHL. Anyone hearing anything at all on the SPHL other than financial issues for Augusta and Columbus?


----------



## Paul Bunyan

I haven't heard any rumors, but I'm now removed from my local ECHL club, and of course they haven't held any forums this year in which we get some information leaks.


----------



## JB51Hockey

This is probably how to the leagues will be next year -

ECHL - 22 teams (loss Elmira) (add nobody)
CHL - 8 teams (loss Quad City, Bloomington) (add Brampton, St. Charles)
AHL - 30 teams (loss Peoria) (add Utica)
SPHL - 8 (loss Augusta)
FHL - 6? I believe they need 6 teams to have non-US citizens on rosters but expansion cities are yet to be announced possibly... (add Brookyln, New Jersey)


----------



## SemireliableSource

lose Peoria? First I've heard of that, it's Abbotsford who is supposed to be moving to Utica.

Also, the CHL going to Casper, WY is still up in the air. 
http://trib.com/news/local/casper/c...cle_76609f6f-514f-5113-8af8-ab5d71929bd4.html


----------



## ForsbergForever

jeben51 said:


> This is probably how to the leagues will be next year -
> 
> ECHL - 22 teams (loss Elmira) (add nobody)
> CHL - 8 teams (loss Quad City, Bloomington) (add Brampton, St. Charles)
> AHL - 30 teams (loss Peoria) (add Utica)
> SPHL - 8 (loss Augusta)
> FHL - 6? I believe they need 6 teams to have non-US citizens on rosters but expansion cities are yet to be announced possibly... (add Brookyln, New Jersey)




How do the Wheeling Nailers keep it going season to season? It seems like they've been on the ropes forever.


----------



## JB51Hockey

FrancoRussianAlaskan said:


> lose Peoria? First I've heard of that, it's Abbotsford who is supposed to be moving to Utica.
> 
> Also, the CHL going to Casper, WY is still up in the air.
> http://trib.com/news/local/casper/c...cle_76609f6f-514f-5113-8af8-ab5d71929bd4.html



Sorry, my CHL knowledge is not too great. And for Peoria, yes. Calgary wants to move their team to Utica for next year leaving Abbotsford open for the Vancouver Canucks to put a team in there. They can't move the Wolves because they don't own them. They are looking to buy the Peoria Rivermen and move them to Abby. (Link) This leaves the Chicago Wolves unaffiliated and the St. Louis Blues would take that AHL team.





ForsbergForever said:


> How do the Wheeling Nailers keep it going season to season? It seems like they've been on the ropes forever.



I give them one more year because if they were to fold at the end of this season it would leave Reading and Trenton alone in the Atlantic because of Elmira also folding. I would expect the ECHL to announce a Northeastern expansion before Wheeling folds.


----------



## JB51Hockey

FrancoRussianAlaskan said:


> lose Peoria? First I've heard of that, it's Abbotsford who is supposed to be moving to Utica.
> 
> Also, the CHL going to Casper, WY is still up in the air.
> http://trib.com/news/local/casper/c...cle_76609f6f-514f-5113-8af8-ab5d71929bd4.html




And what is the title? "Casper's AAA hockey future.." Has the CHL lied to the city and said the league is one step from the show?


----------



## mk80

Or it could be a simple typo or error.

Regardless of the level they were told or think the CHL is, is would Casper be able to support the team?

What I see is this for next year:

AHL: Abbotsford to Utica
ECHL: stays the same
CHL: 8-12 teams depending on if the league hangs onto Quad City and Bloomington.
SPHL: lose Augusta

FHL: Hopefully dead and burried

If Peoria would be bought and moved to Abbotsford, maybe we see the Rivermen rejoin the ECHL.


----------



## LadyStanley

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1359167
The latest on the AHL seems to be a three-way move/realignment/re-affiliation between Abbotsford, Chicago and Peoria.

Shall we keep this thread focused on the leagues lower than the AHL, please.


----------



## SemireliableSource

jeben51 said:


> And what is the title? "Casper's AAA hockey future.." Has the CHL lied to the city and said the league is one step from the show?






mkhockeygoalie said:


> Or it could be a simple typo or error.
> 
> Regardless of the level they were told or think the CHL is, is would Casper be able to support the team?




I think it could be more like poor (or lack of) research because they've made that mistake before meaning it's more than just a one-off typo.


----------



## JB51Hockey

mkhockeygoalie said:


> What I see is this for next year:
> 
> AHL: Abbotsford to Utica
> ECHL: stays the same
> CHL: 8-12 teams depending on if the league hangs onto Quad City and Bloomington.
> SPHL: lose Augusta
> 
> FHL: Hopefully dead and burried
> 
> If Peoria would be bought and moved to Abbotsford, maybe we see the Rivermen rejoin the ECHL.




Elmira is definitely done for. No question. Maybe Jackals could relocate to Peoria if the Rivs' move to Abbotsford. This would most likely make the Atlantic Division be Reading, Trenton, Wheeling and Toledo. Hopefully FHL is done for.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

jeben51 said:


> Elmira is definitely done for. No question. Maybe Jackals could relocate to Peoria if the Rivs' move to Abbotsford. This would most likely make the Atlantic Division be Reading, Trenton, Wheeling and Toledo. Hopefully FHL is done for.




how?

if there's an agreement between Freeman and Elmira under new ownership then the Jackals are not done, because the ECHL has that caveat that if a market is vacated the league holds that market for 5 years, jeben.


----------



## JB51Hockey

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> how?
> 
> if there's an agreement between Freeman and Elmira under new ownership then the Jackals are not done, because the ECHL has that caveat that if a market is vacated the league holds that market for 5 years, jeben.




Well the state shut off First Arena's electricity for a few hours a few weeks ago but decided to leave them on until conclusion of the Jackals' season. First Arena also hasn't paid a dime in taxes in three years. It's not really that the Jackals are doing bad it's just the fact that they will not have an arena.


----------



## RED ARMY EAST

Any interests from Saskatoon on an ECHL or AHL team?


----------



## Yoties2317

RED ARMY EAST said:


> Any interests from Saskatoon on an ECHL or AHL team?




Not on top of the WHL... is something wrong with the Blades there?


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

jeben51 said:


> Well the state shut off First Arena's electricity for a few hours a few weeks ago but decided to leave them on until conclusion of the Jackals' season. First Arena also hasn't paid a dime in taxes in three years. It's not really that the Jackals are doing bad it's just the fact that they will not have an arena.




false,

each time there's been a threatened shutoff it hasn't happened, jeben, even the legal issues stemming from the Chemung County charge that they weren't paid by x date, was eventually solved as was the sidebar involving Freeman vs. Afr over whom actually owns the arena, see, the Afr's have been a thorn in the sides of three markets, two of which they were successful in deswtroying any hope of a fanbase in hockey ever returning to those markets (Louisville & Port Huron); they're attempting to destabilize and destroy a 3rd in Elmira, they're not allowed after the Louisville fiasco to even be proposed and/or accepted to any other league higher than the ECHL.... In all honesty, McKenna/ECHL would love to see new operators in Elmira, as the Arena issue seems to have settled down and the prevailing rumor at this point might be that the Afr's might be told to relinquish the rights to the Jackals, so the only option is either new ownership or no hockey but Elmira's staying unless the ECHL starts procedures to terminate the club's membership (and currently, they're a playoff team as of tonight.


----------



## JB51Hockey

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> false,
> 
> each time there's been a threatened shutoff it hasn't happened, jeben, even the legal issues stemming from the Chemung County charge that they weren't paid by x date, was eventually solved as was the sidebar involving Freeman vs. Afr over whom actually owns the arena, see, the Afr's have been a thorn in the sides of three markets, two of which they were successful in deswtroying any hope of a fanbase in hockey ever returning to those markets (Louisville & Port Huron); they're attempting to destabilize and destroy a 3rd in Elmira, they're not allowed after the Louisville fiasco to even be proposed and/or accepted to any other league higher than the ECHL.... In all honesty, McKenna/ECHL would love to see new operators in Elmira, as the Arena issue seems to have settled down and the prevailing rumor at this point might be that the Afr's might be told to relinquish the rights to the Jackals, so the only option is either new ownership or no hockey but Elmira's staying unless the ECHL starts procedures to terminate the club's membership (and currently, they're a playoff team as of tonight.




But how long before the state actually follows through and shuts off the power? To me, it seems like they are letting Elmira generate as much revenue as possible from the remaining ECHL games and then off goes the power until they pay their bills. The Jackals look to be First Arena's only tenant and after viewing the event calendar the only events they have is the Jackals and on March 30 it's Cirque D'Or. One event in the whole month of April and nothing in May, June, July, August. How does an arena pay their bills when they are only home to one team that draws worst in the league?


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

jeben51 said:


> But how long before the state actually follows through and shuts off the power? To me, it seems like they are letting Elmira generate as much revenue as possible from the remaining ECHL games and then off goes the power until they pay their bills. The Jackals look to be First Arena's only tenant and after viewing the event calendar the only events they have is the Jackals and on March 30 it's Cirque D'Or. One event in the whole month of April and nothing in May, June, July, August. How does an arena pay their bills when they are only home to one team that draws worst in the league?




THERE'S A PAYMENT Plan, you need to research before you post inaccuracies, jeben, Elmira is in the playoffs as of last night so there goes much of April and May, the Afr's have paid it, where are you coming up with this anyway, it's common knowledge that most of the hockey fanbase in Elmira and elsewhere don't need.


----------



## JB51Hockey

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> THERE'S A PAYMENT Plan, you need to research before you post inaccuracies, jeben, Elmira is in the playoffs as of last night so there goes much of April and May, the Afr's have paid it, where are you coming up with this anyway, it's common knowledge that most of the hockey fanbase in Elmira and elsewhere don't need.




So what happens when Elmira is knocked out in the first round and there are no events from April to September?


----------



## mfrerkes

mkhockeygoalie said:


> CHL: 8-12 teams depending on if the league hangs onto Quad City and Bloomington.




The league has already signed up for another year of running the Mallards if no buyer is found before then. I suspect the CHL will unload QC to the first schmuck who can pony up a franchise fee. If nobody steps forward, Duane Lewis will keep writing checks himself all next season.

Bloomington's situation is a little more difficult to predict, but I think the CHL will move heaven and earth to keep them afloat. Saint Charles and QC will definitely need Bloomington for next season. Without the Blaze, their whole Brampton experiment is going to fail even harder. I think Bloomington is in real trouble, but I can't see the league letting it fold either.

It's very possible the CHL could be running two teams next season. If so, that will only underscore the deep denial Lewis has regarding the future of his league. The CHL's trajectory is similar to that of the IHL back in 2009. To anyone with half a brain, it's obvious the wheels are coming off the cart.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

jeben51 said:


> So what happens when Elmira is knocked out in the first round and there are no events from April to September?




why are you so hyper on seeing Elmira collapse, jeben? Do you do any research on the history bc it's well documented, and discarded by even their own fanbase, based off that, it's a wonder that Philadelphia Wants to return its top affiliate to the Lehigh Valley in 2014?


----------



## vanuck

Does anyone see the rest of the 'viable' teams in the CHL joining the ECHL eventually?


----------



## mfrerkes

vanuck said:


> Does anyone see the rest of the 'viable' teams in the CHL joining the ECHL eventually?




I could definitely see Rapid City joining due to their proximity to Colorado. Missouri, Wichita, Allen, and Tulsa are all doing well enough (attendance-wise) to join the ECHL...but they'd have to join simultaneously. Without all four going at the same time, the ECHL's existing geography makes it tough for them to survive individually.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

vanuck said:


> Does anyone see the rest of the 'viable' teams in the CHL joining the ECHL eventually?




I think so. That's also why I think that the ECHL's capped their membership total, as they know they can't go over what the NHL has.


----------



## JB51Hockey

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> why are you so hyper on seeing Elmira collapse, jeben? Do you do any research on the history bc it's well documented, and discarded by even their own fanbase, based off that, it's a wonder that Philadelphia Wants to return its top affiliate to the Lehigh Valley in 2014?




Just countering your arguments. Why are you so hyper on seeing Elmira stay?  I don't want Elmira to fail but I was informed that the arena wasn't going to be suitable for hockey next fall. That's all. And what are you referring to about Adirondack moving to LV?


----------



## vanuck

mfrerkes said:


> I could definitely see Rapid City joining due to their proximity to Colorado. Missouri, Wichita, Allen, and Tulsa are all doing well enough (attendance-wise) to join the ECHL...*but they'd have to join simultaneously. Without all four going at the same time, the ECHL's existing geography makes it tough for them to survive individually.*





No Fun Shogun said:


> I think so. That's also why I think that the ECHL's capped their membership total, *as they know they can't go over what the NHL has.*




Good points. If they do join, it'd pretty much have to be all of them at once or else there could not be much point in continuing what's left of the CHL with dwindling membership. It seems like that league is slowly dying anyway, from what little I know. Would it be better/stable for minor pro hockey if the E was the only league that represented the 'Triple-A' level?

Just from looking at the maps of both leagues, they seem to fit quite well geographically.

And would the E's membership limit be related to subsidies from their NHL affiliates? As in, if they had 35 teams, 5 of them would be left out in the cold?


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

jeben51 said:


> Just countering your arguments. Why are you so hyper on seeing Elmira stay?  I don't want Elmira to fail but I was informed that the arena wasn't going to be suitable for hockey next fall. That's all. And what are you referring to about Adirondack moving to LV?




I'm here.

As for the overall question I see the ECHL losing 2-3 teams in Elmira, Wheeling or/and Trenton(Though I think Trenton will get it's millionth life, damn they get more lives than a cat!) 

As for the Elmira nonsense...it's very "up in the air." We are told they will play but thres ero details. Nobody knows what happened in court aside from the politicians trying to assure the sheep theres good news. I'm not buying. First of all if anyody knows a damn thing about Afr he hates operating a place he doesn't own. That leaves you with 2 simpleton options....fold or sell the team. If anyone knows about Afr his asking price isn't going to be dirt cheap or even remotely reasonable. Like you have questioned I have been wondering that for years. The over/under of the days that place is used I would say 50 is maybe slightly over at 55. I have no basis for that number aside from 36 home games, a preseason game or two and like 5 playoff games. I'll throw in the 2 day Wine On Ice event in January and that gets you close to 45. Then they bring in the stupid Trotters for a night. Then this fall there was a night of beer sampling. Then this summer there were 3 movie nights, thats 50.(These were however free to the public) Then they have the stupid circus and I forget the music acts(under 5) In June the local HS's over two days do graduations. Free to the spectators but the schools pa a couple thou a piece. There is a rec rink connected to the arena but you don't need it on to get into or operate the rec rink. Hell...I don't even think in a legit manner the Jackals are profitable. I know the say they are in good financial shape but what Afr did is pretty much the pnly reason why. They ate the ash they got and didn't spend unless they 100% had to.


----------



## mfrerkes

vanuck said:


> Good points. If they do join, it'd pretty much have to be all of them at once or else there could not be much point in continuing what's left of the CHL with dwindling membership. It seems like that league is slowly dying anyway, from what little I know. Would it be better/stable for minor pro hockey if the E was the only league that represented the 'Triple-A' level?




At this point, it makes the best economic sense to have one "AA" league as opposed to two of them. It's very similar to what the IHL and AHL went through in the 1990s when they competed for the same talent pool. The IHL had a failed economic model (much like today's CHL does) and wound up being absorbed into the AHL. Since then, AAA-level hockey has been more stable...relatively speaking, of course.

If the ranks of AA hockey were trimmed down to 30 teams, you'd see much less turnover in markets. The CHL is on the verge of being a revolving door with markets like Denver, Saint Charles, and Brampton as recent additions. Other hockey products have already struggled in those markets, and I doubt they'll find sudden success in something like the CHL which is now becoming a glorified SPHL in terms of talent.

The CHL is either going to fold or become part of the ECHL in the next couple years. It doesn't have enough solid markets to remain as a viable stand-alone league very much longer.


----------



## vanuck

mfrerkes said:


> At this point, it makes the best economic sense to have one "AA" league as opposed to two of them. It's very similar to what the IHL and AHL went through in the 1990s when they competed for the same talent pool. The IHL had a failed economic model (much like today's CHL does) and wound up being absorbed into the AHL. Since then, AAA-level hockey has been more stable...relatively speaking, of course.
> 
> If the ranks of AA hockey were trimmed down to 30 teams, you'd see much less turnover in markets. The CHL is on the verge of being a revolving door with markets like Denver, Saint Charles, and Brampton as recent additions. Other hockey products have already struggled in those markets, and I doubt they'll find sudden success in something like the CHL which is now becoming a glorified SPHL in terms of talent.
> 
> The CHL is either going to fold or become part of the ECHL in the next couple years. It doesn't have enough solid markets to remain as a viable stand-alone league very much longer.




Thanks. I always thought the CHL and ECHL were similar in talent level actually, with the E being a little higher due to the number of prospects assigned to their teams.

Do you see a merger happening when that league finally collapses, or the CHL folding and the stronger teams applying for membership in the E separately?


----------



## Kapn Kaveman

I believe the ECHL has capped the number of teams at 26 ... they could change the bylaws to allow more teams ... maybe 1 for every NHL and AHL team...

I'd also would like to see a name change ... ECHL is outdated ... bring back the IHL..


----------



## JB51Hockey

Kapn Kaveman said:


> I believe the ECHL has capped the number of teams at 26 ... they could change the bylaws to allow more teams ... maybe 1 for every NHL and AHL team...
> 
> I'd also would like to see a name change ... ECHL is outdated ... bring back the IHL..




I think it should stay ECHL. Now, the ECHL doesn't mean anything. It _doesn't_ mean East Coast Hockey League it means ECHL. Stands for nothing. Good for history.


----------



## LadyStanley

When the East Coast Hockey League merged with the West Coast Hockey League in 2003, the IHL still existed.

Perhaps the now no-abbreviation-nor-acronym ECHL might consider changing it's name to IHL


----------



## HansH

LadyStanley said:


> When the East Coast Hockey League merged with the West Coast Hockey League in 2003, the IHL still existed.
> 
> Perhaps the now no-abbreviation-nor-acronym ECHL might consider changing it's name to IHL




Not after the Fort Wayne owners acquired the name and used it to rebrand the UHL and limp along another 2 years. That two years did, IMO, a lot more damage to the name's brand and legitimacy. Leave it where it is for a while longer, is my thinking.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Kapn Kaveman said:


> I believe the ECHL has capped the number of teams at 26 ... they could change the bylaws to allow more teams ... maybe 1 for every NHL and AHL team...
> 
> I'd also would like to see a name change ... ECHL is outdated ... bring back the IHL..




1-1-1 I think would handicap the competition.


----------



## vanuck

Maybe after there's only the E left, they can finally give those letters meaning again: Entire Continent Hockey League.


----------



## HansH

vanuck said:


> And would the E's membership limit be related to subsidies from their NHL affiliates? As in, if they had 35 teams, 5 of them would be left out in the cold?



You mention a common misperception here. ECHL teams do NOT get "subsidies" from their NHL affiliates. The ECHL team typically _pays_ for the privilege of the NHL affiliation. What they get in return (sometimes) are players assigned to them that are property of the NHL (or AHL) parent -- the parent team pays the players' salaries. So, the theory is that the child would pay less in affiliation than they would if they directly paid the players' salaries -- but this is not a "subsidy".

In addition, unlike the AHL, the ECHL has no requirement that its teams maintain either AHL or NHL affiliations -- in the recent past, many more teams have chosen affiliation than complete independence, but that's not a factor at all in terms of limiting the ECHL to only as many teams as the NHL has -- in fact, the 2003-04 season featured 31 ECHL teams (to the NHL's then 30).


----------



## HansH

No Fun Shogun said:


> I think so. That's also why I think that the ECHL's capped their membership total, as they know they can't go over what the NHL has.



Incorrect -- see my prior post. The ECHL can (and already has in the past) gone over the NHL's number of teams.


----------



## vanuck

HansH said:


> You mention a common misperception here. ECHL teams do NOT get "subsidies" from their NHL affiliates. The ECHL team typically _pays_ for the privilege of the NHL affiliation. What they get in return (sometimes) are players assigned to them that are property of the NHL (or AHL) parent -- the parent team pays the players' salaries. So, the theory is that the child would pay less in affiliation than they would if they directly paid the players' salaries -- but this is not a "subsidy".
> 
> In addition, unlike the AHL, the ECHL has no requirement that its teams maintain either AHL or NHL affiliations -- in the recent past, many more teams have chosen affiliation than complete independence, but that's not a factor at all in terms of limiting the ECHL to only as many teams as the NHL has -- in fact, the 2003-04 season featured 31 ECHL teams (to the NHL's then 30).




I see. Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

HansH said:


> Incorrect -- see my prior post. The ECHL can (and already has in the past) gone over the NHL's number of teams.




I know, but much like the AHL the ECHL just seems, to me at least, interested in becoming a fully-fledged sole AA-minor league right now, so my gut is just telling me that their interest is for a 1:1:1 ratio and keep it at that moving forward.


----------



## ForsbergForever

No Fun Shogun said:


> I know, but much like the AHL the ECHL just seems, to me at least, interested in becoming a fully-fledged sole AA-minor league right now, so my gut is just telling me that their interest is for a 1:1:1 ratio and keep it at that moving forward.




Its a shame we (and the E) have to wait another year for the CHL to collapse before putting this logical evolution of professional hockey into effect. Everybody on this board seems to see the writing on the wall as far as the ECHL becoming the exclusive 'AA' hockey league, yet we still have Duane Lewis pretending the future is bright...


----------



## mfrerkes

ForsbergForever said:


> Everybody on this board seems to see the writing on the wall as far as the ECHL becoming the exclusive 'AA' hockey league, yet we still have Duane Lewis pretending the future is bright...




Try having Duane Lewis as the owner of the only team in your market. Whatever slim chance the Mallards had of making it out of the abyss quickly vanished when Lewis grabbed the reins. He demoted QC's only decent front office person (Ryan Simmons) to the point where Simmons took a better position elsewhere.

The CHL is not only making it tough for AA hockey to consolidate, but it's ruining the product in markets that needed serious help. Lewis is doing all of this to keep his rickety ship afloat for another season. He couldn't care less what those actions do to the sport in a broader context.


----------



## mfrerkes

HansH said:


> Not after the Fort Wayne owners acquired the name and *used it to rebrand the UHL and limp along another 2 years.* That two years did, IMO, a lot more damage to the name's brand and legitimacy. Leave it where it is for a while longer, is my thinking.




The Frankes were able to get _three years_ out of the IHL rebranding effort.

2007-08, 2008-09, and 2009-10. I have personal experience with the third and last season. It was an unfortunate attempt to keep something alive that should've been allowed to die with dignity.

...Much like the CHL is doing now.


----------



## SemireliableSource

It's official. The Blues exercised an option in their lease with the Peoria Civic Center. The Rivermen are leaving Peoria.

http://www.pjstar.com/rivermen/x1037530003/Blues-notify-Civic-Center-that-Rivermen-are-leaving


----------



## HansH

I wonder if the ECHL and CHL will race each other to place a replacement team into Peoria for 2013-14? Or if there are still more moves on the AHL level that might bring in a replacement team?


----------



## LadyStanley

HansH said:


> I wonder if the ECHL and CHL will race each other to place a replacement team into Peoria for 2013-14? Or if there are still more moves on the AHL level that might bring in a replacement team?




Article indicates the city wants to retain hockey.

I doubt they'll be able to find an AHL franchise to relocate, which means they'd have to find an ECHL or CHL franchise.


----------



## HansH

LadyStanley said:


> Article indicates the city wants to retain hockey.
> 
> I doubt they'll be able to find an AHL franchise to relocate, which means they'd have to find an ECHL or CHL franchise.



Unless those Houston or Portland lease issues fail to get resolved -- that's two franchises right there that could be targets for a Peoria-based effort.


----------



## mfrerkes

HansH said:


> Unless those Houston or Portland lease issues fail to get resolved -- that's two franchises right there that could be targets for a Peoria-based effort.




I've heard the Wild are looking heavily at Des Moines, so I don't see the Aeros going to Peoria. Des Moines is about 4 hours from Saint Paul, so the geographical alignment works better there than it does in Peoria. With Des Moines having more Wild fans in their region, I think that might help with generating local fan interest.

I don't know much about Portland's situation. Peoria has had decent attendance, but they were always rumored to be on the chopping block...even back when the Quad Cities had AHL hockey. A move to the ECHL would be Peoria's safest bet, IMO.


----------



## Kanka

LadyStanley said:


> Article indicates the city wants to retain hockey.
> 
> I doubt they'll be able to find an AHL franchise to relocate, which means they'd have to find an ECHL or CHL franchise.




Hey, don't forget the FHL 

I am sure the Kirnan's and Soskin have already made a phone call about their single 'A' league's success in the Northeast. With the size of Peoria's rink, the FHL could fit 3 franchises in there, with room to spare when another team folds during the season.


----------



## Gearhead82

LadyStanley said:


> Article indicates the city wants to retain hockey.
> 
> I doubt they'll be able to find an AHL franchise to relocate, which means they'd have to find an ECHL or CHL franchise.




Peoria has ECHL ties so, I can see this happening. Please God, No CHL or FHL


----------



## iamjs

LadyStanley said:


> When the East Coast Hockey League merged with the West Coast Hockey League in 2003, the IHL still existed.
> 
> Perhaps the now no-abbreviation-nor-acronym ECHL might consider changing it's name to IHL




IHL folded in 2001.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Hockey_League_(1945â€“2001)


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

iamjs said:


> IHL folded in 2001.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Hockey_League_(1945â€“2001)




and then came back under Michael Franke.


----------



## iamjs

BK Triple Threat said:


> and then came back under Michael Franke.




It was mentioned that the WCHL folded before the IHL, which is what I was referring to. I know the IHL eventually came back, but that wasn't for another 6 years after the original had folded.


----------



## mfrerkes

BK Triple Threat said:


> and then came back under Michael Franke.




I think Franke conveniently borrowed the IHL name so the UHL rebranding effort had some gravitas. The Franke-run IHL was in no way close to capturing the spirit of the original league which bore that name.


----------



## JB51Hockey

Vancouver Canucks purchase Peoria franchise

Link


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

I think the Jackals are done:

http://www.stargazette.com/article/...rejects-hearing-Elmira-First-Arena-settlement

http://www.wetmtv.com/mostpopular/s...-In-Buying-Elmira/6kJbqEvzGUGjK_fTXUCHSw.cspx

I cant see Afr playing in a rink he doesn't own the way he operates no incentive and his asking price i'm sure isn't gunna be cheap.


----------



## mk80

A thought that just occurred to me...

The Jackals could possibly be playing next year, if a ownership group or collaboration from Peoria comes along who might be willing to take on the ownership/ transfer of the Jackals.

Like I said just a random thought that popped into my head..


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

mkhockeygoalie said:


> A thought that just occurred to me...
> 
> The Jackals could possibly be playing next year, if a ownership group or collaboration from Peoria comes along who might be willing to take on the ownership/ transfer of the Jackals.
> 
> Like I said just a random thought that popped into my head..




The Peoria Jackals!!! Could they move them to the AHL as an ECHL franchise? Probably not.

But I guess I should rephrase that. Hockey in Elmira is likely done.


----------



## mk80

BK Triple Threat said:


> The Peoria Jackals!!! Could they move them to the AHL as an ECHL franchise? Probably not.
> 
> But I guess I should rephrase that. Hockey in Elmira is likely done.




Well by transfer I meant from Elmira to Peoria as an ECHL franchise.... The Rivermen did play in the ECHL for a period of time, until they were replaced by the AHL version.

I mean I know it wouldn't happen in heartbeat, but Peoria's arena wants to have hockey next year... so IF an ownership comes along rather than start a new franchise, it may be possible that anyone (if someone) comes along from Peoria could decide to purchase the Jackals and move them.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Former Peoria owner MAD:

http://m.pjstar.com/jstar/pm_29471/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=zh7VAxyr


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Easy for the guy that bailed on the team to get mad at someone else for bailing on the market, I suppose....


----------



## lennysundahl

No Fun Shogun said:


> Easy for the guy that bailed on the team to get mad at someone else for bailing on the market, I suppose....



Notice in the article the guy is 85... figure he's getting to the point where he doesn't have the energy to look over a hockey team, sold to the Blues figuring that they would give them needed stability, and watched as they let it sit in the corner and collect dust.


----------



## mfrerkes

No Fun Shogun said:


> Easy for the guy that bailed on the team to get mad at someone else for bailing on the market, I suppose....




Saurs bailed because he was losing his shirt all those years. Did he honestly expect his successor to stick around indefinitely and do the same thing? Some people think their market is just entitled to professional hockey, whether the ticket sales justify it or not.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Exactly. Just because the Blues have more money to burn doesn't mean you can honestly expect them to, as much as it stinks to see the Rivermen go.


----------



## JungleJON

*Latest Peoria News*

http://www.pjstar.com/rivermen/x103...ria-while-Rivermen-fate-with-Vancouver-unsure


Article on ECHL's interest on Peoria, also mentions that Indianapolis will be joining within the next two years.


----------



## mk80

Indianapolis would make a good fit in the ECHL... I believe they are in the process of renovating thier arena.

The end of the article also mentions Peoria "looking at" the CHL, USHL, and NAHL... I would hate to see them in any of those leagues. But whatever they feel is best, I hope they either do re-enter the ECHL or if not they get a USHL franchise.


----------



## HansH

SenorChifles said:


> http://www.pjstar.com/rivermen/x103...ria-while-Rivermen-fate-with-Vancouver-unsure
> 
> 
> Article on ECHL's interest on Peoria, also mentions that Indianapolis will be joining within the next two years.




Specifically, here's the quote I found interesting both about Indy and about Peoria:



> Indianapolis is set to join the ECHL within the next two seasons as well.
> 
> But McKenna said the leagueâ€™s deadlines to add teams for 2013-14 has already passed. Peoria would have to wait a year to get in.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Indy would be a good fit for minor league hockey at any level. The Ice draw decent, from what I remember, but they don't really advertise beyond their usual game in the Pacers arena, so their status as a hockey market with a USHL team isn't really that high up. With better advertising, though, probably would work well.


----------



## mfrerkes

HansH said:


> Specifically, here's the quote I found interesting both about Indy and about Peoria:




My guess is Peoria goes next year without pro hockey and hits the ground running for 2014-15 in the ECHL. I just don't see them even briefly contemplating a move to the CHL. It would be suicide.


----------



## Jackets Woodchuck

mfrerkes said:


> My guess is Peoria goes next year without pro hockey and hits the ground running for 2014-15 in the ECHL. I just don't see them even briefly contemplating a move to the CHL. It would be suicide.




Yes. As much as the off year will stink like a million skunks in a steel mill, it will be worth it in the long term if Peoria gets back into the ECHL. Speaking from personal experience as a hockey fan in a city (Cleveland) that had a year off so a more stable outfit could get a year's head start on ticket sales.


----------



## Prussian_Blue

Jackets Woodchuck said:


> Yes. As much as the off year will stink like a million skunks in a steel mill, it will be worth it in the long term if Peoria gets back into the ECHL. Speaking from personal experience as a hockey fan in a city (Cleveland) that had a year off so a more stable outfit could get a year's head start on ticket sales.




Got to agree with this... and if the ECHL doesn't pan out for any reason, I'd really like to see Peoria in the USHL. You've got to think that a business model in which the players are not paid a salary, and in which travel expenditures would be much less compared to even the ECHL, would be attractive to a potential franchise owner in a smaller market like Peoria.


----------



## MinWild1

I think if Peoria doesn't get back in the AHL that the ECHL would be there best route.

The USHL is a great junior league, but going from watching the AHL to the USHL that is a huge drop in level of play. Not a ton of hitting, bad defense, and since players are between 16-20 years old, there not very built. If Peoria would be getting a hockey franchise for the first time itd be different, but going from watching the AHL to USHL, I know I wouldnt like that.


----------



## mk80

Once an ownership group is found, I think they will be pretty much poised to join the ECHL again


----------



## ckg927

No Fun Shogun said:


> Indy would be a good fit for minor league hockey at any level. The Ice draw decent, from what I remember, but they don't really advertise beyond their usual game in the Pacers arena, so their status as a hockey market with a USHL team isn't really that high up. With better advertising, though, probably would work well.




Let's not forget that the Ice's current home(the Pepsi Coliseum on the state fairgrounds)is in the middle of a 2 year renovation. They'll be at the Fieldhouse a bit more next season; some games will also be held at Pan Am Plaza-which they just moved some of their operations into.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Should know Elmira's fate this week:

http://www.stargazette.com/article/20130408/NEWS01/304080072/Word-Jackals-future-may-emerge-week


----------



## LadyStanley

BK Triple Threat said:


> Should know Elmira's fate this week:
> 
> http://www.stargazette.com/article/20130408/NEWS01/304080072/Word-Jackals-future-may-emerge-week




http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1400443
Separate thread for that. (New owner of arena, team)



MOD NOTE: If you want to talk about the "musical franchises" of the AHL, please do so on the AHL forum. TIA http://hfboards.mandatory.com/forumdisplay.php?f=46


----------



## Cyclones Rock

*What's Up With This?*

A check of CHL websites revealed some interesting information.

Four of the teams (Allen, Fort Worth, Rapid City and Denver) DO NOT have season ticket information for the 2013-14 season. All the rest do.

Last season, Evansville and Fort Wayne (prior to their moves to the ECHL) were advertising season tickets for 36 home games, which obviously weren't intended for the CHL. Perhaps the CHL has a policy in place which prevented this from occurring again.

The ECHL Board of Governors Spring Meetings were not officially closed with an announcement of the teams which will comprise the ECHL for the 2013-14 season. Normally, the BOG Spring Meeting is formally closed and the teams for the upcoming season are announced-including those which won't return.

My speculation would be that Allen, Fort Worth and Rapid City are looking like strong candidates to jump leagues. I don't have any reason to believe that Denver would be doing the same.

I wouldn't expect any formal announcements until the CHL playoffs conclude next month. Until then, I think there's plenty of valid reasons to make plausible speculations about possible team movements.


----------



## Kanka

Not sure if between the time you posted this and now Allen updated their website, but Allen has 2013-14 season tickets up
http://www.allenamericans.com/articles/ticketing.asp?articleid=1384

As for the rest you are right, thanks for pointing it out.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

Kanka said:


> Not sure if between the time you posted this and now Allen updated their website, but Allen has 2013-14 season tickets up
> http://www.allenamericans.com/articles/ticketing.asp?articleid=1384
> 
> As for the rest you are right, thanks for pointing it out.




I just checked them around 30 minutes before I posted and it wasn't there


----------



## mk80

Also I'll add to this and say that expansion St. Charles have been very quiet lately... no announcements made about season tickets, no announcements made in general, facebook page taken down. Not looking good over here.


----------



## royals119

There was the pending transfer of ownership in Elmira that was keeping the BOG from closing their meeting. They may just have not made the final announcement about closing the meeting after the Elmira situation was settled. Or, you could be right and they are still "in recess" until some other teams are settled that we don't know about.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

True, sadly I think Elmira was the hold up.

I can't believe they accepted the transfer


----------



## SemireliableSource

mkhockeygoalie said:


> Also I'll add to this and say that expansion St. Charles have been very quiet lately... no announcements made about season tickets, no announcements made in general, facebook page taken down. Not looking good over here.




They never answer the phone either.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Yikes, so could very well be a nonstart for the franchise....


----------



## HansH

No Fun Shogun said:


> Yikes, so could very well be a nonstart for the franchise....




When I was doing the Death Pool Report, I had a category called "(dis)Honorable Mention" -- teams that had never taken the ice, so weren't on "death watch", but had been announced and ended up never actually taking the ice (or at least not in the season they were supposed to) -- the most egregious of which was the notorious WPHL Tucson Scorch, who folded before playing a single game, one day into their first WPHL season.

I'd be keeping a close eye on St. Charles for that category...


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Reminds me almost of the Lake County Fielders, a baseball team that, despite actually managing to play a year, never got off the ground. Stadium never got built and ended up playing in a glorified sandlot.

The inept ownership of that team and the Schaumburg Flyers, who I worked for in their final season as part of the game day staff, is ultimately what killed the Northern League.


----------



## Drake88

*Ticket observations*

After looking at the website for each CHL team and their ticket advertisements I've gathered some observations.

Allen- tickets were being advertised tickets but no amount of games

Arizona- tickets advertised for 33 home games (standard in the CHL)

Bloomington- tickets were advertised but no amount of games was specified

Brampton- tickets were advertised for 36 home game(standard in the ECHL)

St. Charles- barley any info About the team at all and no mention at all of tickets anywhere.

Denver- no ticket info

Fort Worth- no ticket info

Missouri- tickets advertised for 33 home games (standard in the CHL)

Quad city- tickets were advertised but no amount of games were specified. 

Rapid city- no ticket info

Tulsa- tickets were advertised but no amount of games were specified. 

Wichita- tickets advertised for 33 home games (standard in the CHL)


WHAT THE FUTURE MAY HOLD

Ultimately I think it's very possible we see Rapid City, Missouri, Wichita and Tulsa in the ECHL in the near future

I believe Brampton and Denver also could be possibilities but they would be far less likely. Brampton would work in the Atlantic division but there is no guarantee the league would want to deal with a Canadian team. In order for Denver to be admitted into the ECHL they would probably need permission from the eagles, and given how the Rocky Mountain Rage situation unfolded, I don't see that happening.

Due to the lack of news and advertising, I think we can all assume something is seriously wrong in St. Charles.

I just don't see the ECHL taking a team like Fort Worth due to their attendance trouble and arena.


----------



## SemireliableSource

The Brahmas want to move back into Fort Worth, specifically Will Rogers, but the current plan is for the city to build a new equestrian facility and eventually upgrade ice equipment at Will Rogers.

The Brahmas ownership group is also up in the air. Rumors been floating for a while that the group currently owning the team is still in flux and a big money guy could step in this off season.


----------



## mk80

The only thing known about St. Charles tickets is from a twitter post a while ago that said "Tickets will start at $7"

the only thing after that (again via Twitter) "Happy Easter"

This is the worst start to a franchise I have ever seen. I was very excited a couple months when they were announcing thier logos and coaches. I love the idea of having a less expensive alternative to the Blues 5 minutes from my house.

But now I doubt if they will hit the ice next year


----------



## ForsbergForever

Drake88 said:


> WHAT THE FUTURE MAY HOLD
> 
> Ultimately I think it's very possible we see Rapid City, Missouri, Wichita and Tulsa in the ECHL in the near future
> 
> I believe Brampton and Denver also could be possibilities but they would be far less likely. Brampton would work in the Atlantic division but there is no guarantee the league would want to deal with a Canadian team. In order for Denver to be admitted into the ECHL they would probably need permission from the eagles, and given how the Rocky Mountain Rage situation unfolded, I don't see that happening.
> 
> Due to the lack of news and advertising, I think we can all assume something is seriously wrong in St. Charles.
> 
> I just don't see the ECHL taking a team like Fort Worth due to their attendance trouble and arena.




I don't even know why, since i'm nowhere near an ECHL team, but I'm really hoping this is the year that the league can definitively 'conquer' the CHL. Maybe its just from an organizational standpoint that the 1-1-1 format appeals to me...I'm wondering though, if there's a mass exodus of teams to the ECHL and St. Charles fails to launch, would the CHL continue to operate with maybe 6 or so teams (two of which would be league owned) or would they shut it down? At that point they would more closely resemble the shambolic single-A FHL than any pretense to competing for an AA-status.


----------



## Cornwall OHL

HansH said:


> *When I was doing the Death Pool Report*, I had a category called "(dis)Honorable Mention" -- teams that had never taken the ice, so weren't on "death watch", but had been announced and ended up never actually taking the ice (or at least not in the season they were supposed to) -- the most egregious of which was the notorious WPHL Tucson Scorch, who folded before playing a single game, one day into their first WPHL season.
> 
> I'd be keeping a close eye on St. Charles for that category...




Do you have a link so I can read this?


----------



## HansH

Cornwall OHL said:


> Do you have a link so I can read this?




Prohockeynews.com was the host for the column while I was writing it, but I don't think they have any archives. I haven't done it in four years or so now.


----------



## NSHPreds1835

With AHL Houston moving to Iowa could the Aeros fly again as an ECHL team?


----------



## mk80

Duane Lewis and company are already running Quad City and Blookmington... I'm sure taking on a third team won't be too hard 

I think the final wheel has fallen off the wagon for the CHL: If you look at it the league has 10 teams (not counting the Beast and Chill), if rumors are true and the league loses Mizzouri and Allen to the ECHL (just rumors nothing substantial there) that would give the league 8 teams, add Brampton is only 9. The league would have to take control of St. Charles to maintain a 10 team league, otherwise it would certainly end the league as I believe some teams have a clause the league must at least maintain 10 teams (not sure if that is true, but I recall hearing at one time).


----------



## Aero 75

GwtGlads2013 said:


> With AHL Houston moving to Iowa could the Aeros fly again as an ECHL team?




It has been mentioned as a possibility, but the team would probably have to be owned by Les Alexander to play in the only hockey arena in Houston, Toyota Center. Les is not in good standing with hockey fans in Houston right now, so I wouldn't give this a second thought. The team would have have a depleted fan base, partly due to Les being the owner, and partly due to the fact it would be a step down the ladder. Too many bitter pills to swallow.


----------



## NSHPreds1835

Aero 75 said:


> It has been mentioned as a possibility, but the team would probably have to be owned by Les Alexander to play in the only hockey arena in Houston, Toyota Center. Les is not in good standing with hockey fans in Houston right now, so I wouldn't give this a second thought. The team would have have a depleted fan base, partly due to Les being the owner, and partly due to the fact it would be a step down the ladder. Too many bitter pills to swallow.




I hate that you guys are losing your hockey team over the fact that a new lease couldn't be negotiated. I remember Houston from the IHL days and I think even saw them play in Atlanta against the Knights at least once.


----------



## Drake88

GwtGlads2013 said:


> With AHL Houston moving to Iowa could the Aeros fly again as an ECHL team?




If Houston were to receive an ECHL they would not be playing in the Toyota center where the Aeros played. The Wild would have liked to keep the team in Houston, but the Toyota center believed they could make more money hosting rodeo shows and other events so they decided not to give the Aeros the lease. It is a shame considering the Aeros were 7th in league attendance with an average of almost 7000 this year. Although i would like to see an ECHL team in Houston, i just don't believe it would be possible at this point in time given the configuration of the ECHL (things could change if Allen, Wichita and Tulsa came). Too many fans would probably be turned off after what happened this year and they would most likely have to play at a lesser venue. It actually appears that the only other venue capable of hosting a minor league hockey team, The Summit, has been converted to a church.


----------



## MinWild1

I feel terrible for Houston fans, on a plus side, it sounds like you guys will be getting a junior hockey team in Sugar Land, either in the NAHL NA3HL, or the WSHL. So you'll still get a hockey fix!

Here's to hoping the Aeros find there way back to Houston, whether it's the AHL or ECHL. Even though the CHL would make sense travel wise, I wouldn't wise that league on my worst enemy.


----------



## NSHPreds1835

Drake88 said:


> If Houston were to receive an ECHL they would not be playing in the Toyota center where the Aeros played. The Wild would have liked to keep the team in Houston, but the Toyota center believed they could make more money hosting rodeo shows and other events so they decided not to give the Aeros the lease. It is a shame considering the Aeros were 7th in league attendance with an average of almost 7000 this year. Although i would like to see an ECHL team in Houston, i just don't believe it would be possible at this point in time given the configuration of the ECHL (things could change if Allen, Wichita and Tulsa came). Too many fans would probably be turned off after what happened this year and they would most likely have to play at a lesser venue. It actually appears that the only other venue capable of hosting a minor league hockey team, The Summit, has been converted to a church.




Well the Orlando Solar Bears do play in the Amway Center which is home to the NBA Orland Magic so it's not impossible for an ECHL Houston team to play in the Toyota Center if they were to get one.


----------



## adsfan

GwtGlads2013 said:


> Well the Orlando Solar Bears do play in the Amway Center which is home to the NBA Orland Magic so it's not impossible for an ECHL Houston team to play in the Toyota Center if they were to get one.




Technically, no, it isn't impossible. The guy that owns the Rockets doesn't want a hockey team in his arena. His contract says that such a team is to be owned by him. So any new hockey team won't be playing in the Toyota Center while Les Alexander owns the Rockets.


----------



## NSHPreds1835

adsfan said:


> Technically, no, it isn't impossible. *The guy that owns the Rockets doesn't want a hockey team in his arena.* His contract says that such a team is to be owned by him. So any new hockey team won't be playing in the Toyota Center while Les Alexander owns the Rockets.




Now where have I heard that before?


----------



## Drake88

GwtGlads2013 said:


> Well the Orlando Solar Bears do play in the Amway Center which is home to the NBA Orland Magic so it's not impossible for an ECHL Houston team to play in the Toyota Center if they were to get one.




It's not that ECHL teams can't be in NBA arenas, Orlando and new orleans both play(ed) in them, it just the owner of the arena does not want hockey. He could have given the lease to the aeros who were very successful but decided he could make more money hosting events other than hockey.


----------



## Quacky

mkhockeygoalie said:


> *Duane Lewis and company are already running Quad City and Blookmington*... I'm sure taking on a third team won't be too hard
> 
> I think the final wheel has fallen off the wagon for the CHL: If you look at it the league has 10 teams (not counting the Beast and Chill), if rumors are true and the league loses Mizzouri and Allen to the ECHL (just rumors nothing substantial there) that would give the league 8 teams, add Brampton is only 9. The league would have to take control of St. Charles to maintain a 10 team league, otherwise it would certainly end the league as I believe some teams have a clause the league must at least maintain 10 teams (not sure if that is true, but I recall hearing at one time).




The league has not taken over Bloomington.

According to this article from the Bloomington paper, there are ownership possibilities.


----------



## Quacky

Drake88 said:


> After looking at the website for each CHL team and their ticket advertisements I've gathered some observations.
> 
> Allen- tickets were being advertised tickets but no amount of games
> 
> Arizona- tickets advertised for 33 home games (standard in the CHL)
> 
> Bloomington- tickets were advertised but no amount of games was specified
> 
> Brampton- tickets were advertised for 36 home game(standard in the ECHL)
> 
> St. Charles- barley any info About the team at all and no mention at all of tickets anywhere.
> 
> Denver- no ticket info
> 
> Fort Worth- no ticket info
> 
> Missouri- tickets advertised for 33 home games (standard in the CHL)
> 
> Quad city- tickets were advertised but no amount of games were specified.
> 
> Rapid city- no ticket info
> 
> Tulsa- tickets were advertised but no amount of games were specified.
> 
> Wichita- tickets advertised for 33 home games (standard in the CHL)
> 
> 
> WHAT THE FUTURE MAY HOLD
> 
> Ultimately I think it's very possible we see Rapid City, Missouri, Wichita and Tulsa in the ECHL in the near future
> 
> I believe Brampton and Denver also could be possibilities but they would be far less likely. Brampton would work in the Atlantic division but there is no guarantee the league would want to deal with a Canadian team. In order for Denver to be admitted into the ECHL they would probably need permission from the eagles, and given how the Rocky Mountain Rage situation unfolded, I don't see that happening.
> 
> Due to the lack of news and advertising, I think we can all assume something is seriously wrong in St. Charles.
> 
> I just don't see the ECHL taking a team like Fort Worth due to their attendance trouble and arena.






Ticket info is (and has been) available....

Allen- tickets were being advertised tickets but no amount of games
34 games (33+1 preseason)

Brampton- tickets were advertised for 36 home game(standard in the ECHL)
Includes 36 games (33 regular season and 3 playoff games)

Denver- no ticket info
Season ticket info

Quad city- tickets were advertised but no amount of games were specified. 
I'm from Quad City and a STHer who's already bought tickets for next season....it's 33 games

Rapid city- no ticket info
There is ticket info, but the Rush offered at 2-year pkg at the beginning of 2012-13 which most STHers took advantage of

Tulsa- tickets were advertised but no amount of games were specified. 
[url-http://www.tulsaoilers.com/tickets/full-season/]33 games...menu at bottom of page[/url]

Fort Worth may move to juniors after this season, especially if they get a junior team in Houston with the Aeros gone. 

Rapid City is questionable, but the franchise agreement for each team is valid for 10 years and doesn't include any type of buyout agreement. Rapid is in the 5th year of their 10-year agreement. Not sure how they'd get out, but they may have a plan! 

St. Charles....who knows??!!


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

The league(ECHL) should look at dumping off it's dead beats in Elmira and Wheeling and expand more Midwestern since it sounds like they will br adding Indy in 2014. They are getting a nice little bus division here much like the old UHL wanted to be


----------



## mfrerkes

BK Triple Threat said:


> The league(ECHL) should look at dumping off it's dead beats in Elmira and Wheeling and expand more Midwestern since it sounds like they will br adding Indy in 2014. They are getting a nice little bus division here much like the old UHL wanted to be




With Peoria becoming available (at some point) they will have a great footprint in the Midwest with some solid markets.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

mfrerkes said:


> With Peoria becoming available (at some point) they will have a great footprint in the Midwest with some solid markets.




what that person doesn't get is both Wheeling and Elmira aren't going anywhere, in fact most hockey fans should be thrilled now that Freeman and his partner have booted the Afr's out of team ownership for good, before Elmira went the way of Port Huron and Louisville.

I'm not sure Carver Arena wants to deal w/ a hockey team after having been bought out either, much like how IEC in Des Moines had to deal w/ the Schlegel debacle.


----------



## stars200

Quacky said:


> Ticket info is (and has been) available....
> 
> Allen- tickets were being advertised tickets but no amount of games
> 34 games (33+1 preseason)
> 
> Brampton- tickets were advertised for 36 home game(standard in the ECHL)
> Includes 36 games (33 regular season and 3 playoff games)
> 
> Denver- no ticket info
> Season ticket info
> 
> Quad city- tickets were advertised but no amount of games were specified.
> I'm from Quad City and a STHer who's already bought tickets for next season....it's 33 games
> 
> Rapid city- no ticket info
> There is ticket info, but the Rush offered at 2-year pkg at the beginning of 2012-13 which most STHers took advantage of
> 
> Tulsa- tickets were advertised but no amount of games were specified.
> [url-http://www.tulsaoilers.com/tickets/full-season/]33 games...menu at bottom of page[/url]
> 
> Fort Worth may move to juniors after this season, especially if they get a junior team in Houston with the Aeros gone.
> 
> Rapid City is questionable, but the franchise agreement for each team is valid for 10 years and doesn't include any type of buyout agreement. Rapid is in the 5th year of their 10-year agreement. Not sure how they'd get out, but they may have a plan!
> 
> St. Charles....who knows??!!




The link you provided for Allen is for 2012-2013 season tickets. I did not look at the others. There is information about renewals for next year http://www.allenamericans.com/articles/ticketing.asp?articleid=1384

I have not been a season ticket holder but did purchase tickets already for next year. The handout that I got from the ticket rep was for the 34 game season as posted. The prices did go up from last years and are quite a bit higher than they are for the renewals. If they kept the per game prices the same the price increase would all for the extra home games in the ECHL.


----------



## SemireliableSource

Rumors currently floating around the Fort Worth Brahmas fan base:

At least Allen and Rapid City are off to the ECHL. I think it has to be more than Allen because they're no where near the Southeastern teams or the Western teams. Allen would basically be another Alaska.

If the Brahmas are back, it likely won't be in NYTEX. If they play 13-14, a move back to Fort Worth proper appears to be in the cards whether that's FWCC or Will Rogers. 

Basically Brahmas fans are wondering if the team will play next season and if so, what league and where will be home.


----------



## mfrerkes

FrancoRussianAlaskan said:


> At least Allen and Rapid City are off to the ECHL. I think it has to be more than Allen because they're no where near the Southeastern teams or the Western teams. Allen would basically be another Alaska.




I've heard about Allen and Rapid City going ECHL on several different forums. People can say it's just smoke right now, but I suspect there's a real fire burning. Once the CHL playoffs conclude, we're likely to hear about their departure.

Some people say this could be a death knell for the CHL, but I'm inclined to believe the league will attempt to soldier on without those two markets. Whether that attempt will be feasible is another question. With Bloomington's ownership situation hazy right now and Saint Charles totally MIA, there are way too many bumps in the road.


----------



## LadyStanley

http://centralhockeyleague.com/news/?article_id=9710
Brampton Beast logo revealed


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> *what that person doesn't get is both Wheeling and Elmira aren't going anywhere*, in fact most hockey fans should be thrilled now that Freeman and his partner have booted the Afr's out of team ownership for good, before Elmira went the way of Port Huron and Louisville.
> 
> I'm not sure Carver Arena wants to deal w/ a hockey team after having been bought out either, much like how IEC in Des Moines had to deal w/ the Schlegel debacle.




Explain Hutch my dear. Trenton just folded last I checked. This leaves in the "Northeast" Reading, Elmira and Wheeling. Two of these teams had awful attendance. If that continues long term they won't last, it's basic economics. You can only bleed red for so long. I'm not sure why most hockey fans would be that thrilled as far as the Northeast is concerned theres not much left in this league, they aren't a vital franchise to the league by any stretch of the imagination. They are no Florida, South Carolina, Gwinnett, Alaska or Cincinnati.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

LadyStanley said:


> http://centralhockeyleague.com/news/?article_id=9710
> Brampton Beast logo revealed




Not awful.


----------



## SemireliableSource

If the ECHL northeast can hang for a couple more seasons maybe they could put a team in the Bronx at the complex the Kingsbridge Armory and Danbury could get an ECHL quality arena.


----------



## Prussian_Blue

FrancoRussianAlaskan said:


> If the ECHL northeast can hang for a couple more seasons maybe they could put a team in the Bronx at the complex the Kingsbridge Armory and Danbury could get an ECHL quality arena.




I'm liking that Kingsbridge Armory plan...


----------



## Presstizzle

any news on richmond getting a team in the sphl


----------



## Presstizzle

and how many teams will the FHL have next year?


----------



## Presstizzle

No Fun Shogun said:


> Not awful.



i think it looks cool could have been better.


----------



## MinWild1

IMO its one of the best looking logos in Minor League Hockey.


----------



## SemireliableSource

Presstizzle said:


> any news on richmond getting a team in the sphl




It's looking highly unlikely at this point. We should know the 13-14 makeup of the SPHL come May 15.


----------



## mfrerkes

*CHL Death Watch Thread*

An "official" news source in Rapid City is already publicly stating the Rush are off to the ECHL:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/KOTA-Territory-News/105244278570?hc_location=timeline



> From Sports Director Vic Quick. The Rush will make a major announcement next Wednesday, May 15th. It's expected the team will move up to the ECHL.




Allen is likely to join Rapid City based on most reliable accounts.

Bloomington does not have functioning ownership.

Saint Charles is almost certainly DOA this fall.

Fort Worth continues to have a hazy future/building issues.

I still say the CHL has a chance to return to this fall, but it won't be pretty at all.


----------



## JB51Hockey

mfrerkes said:


> An "official" news source in Rapid City is already publicly stating the Rush are off to the ECHL:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/KOTA-Territory-News/105244278570?hc_location=timeline
> 
> 
> Allen is likely to join Rapid City based on most reliable accounts.




I know the ECHL made a cap on itself for 26 or something around that number but I think it should go to 30. I don't know all the business aspects but for next season the ECHL will most likely have 24 teams (addition of Allen and Rapid City, subtraction of Trenton). For the 2014-15 season the CHL should be gone by then and the ECHL should add Tulsa, Wichita, Brampton, Missouri along with the expansions of Indianapolis and Peoria. I know this is a lot so hang with me... 

Atlantic: Elmira, Wheeling, Toledo, Reading, Brampton
North: Kalamazoo, Indianapolis, Evansville, Fort Wayne, Cincinnati
South: Florida, Greenville, Gwinnett, Orlando, South Carolina
Central: Peoria, Missouri, Wichita, Allen, Tulsa
Mountain: Alaska, Boise, Colorado, Rapid City, Utah
Pacific: Bakersfield, San Francisco, Las Vegas, Ontario, Stockton

So there's the 30-team league. I think the best way to have it is with 30 NHL, 30 AHL and 30 ECHL teams.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Still think that that "cap" is only there to prevent the ECHL from growing too big right now and thereby have room to gobble up a few CHL markets, like Rapid City, when the time comes. Making a 30-30-30 split across the NHL-AHL-ECHL just makes the most sense, but if they want to do that with a handful of CHL teams eventually joining they've got to artificially hold off immediate growth somehow.


----------



## paul-laus

jeben51 said:


> I know the ECHL made a cap on itself for 26 or something around that number but I think it should go to 30. I don't know all the business aspects but for next season the ECHL will most likely have 24 teams (addition of Allen and Rapid City, subtraction of Trenton). For the 2014-15 season the CHL should be gone by then and the ECHL should add Tulsa, Wichita, *Brampton*, Missouri along with the expansions of Indianapolis and Peoria. I know this is a lot so hang with me...
> 
> Atlantic: Elmira, Wheeling, Toledo, Reading, _*Brampton*_
> North: Kalamazoo, Indianapolis, Evansville, Fort Wayne, Cincinnati
> South: Florida, Greenville, Gwinnett, Orlando, Florida
> Central: Peoria, Missouri, Wichita, Allen, Tulsa
> Mountain: Alaska, Boise, Colorado, Rapid City, Utah
> Pacific: Bakersfield, San Francisco, Las Vegas, Ontario, Stockton
> 
> So there's the 30-team league. I think the best way to have it is with 30 NHL, 30 AHL and 30 ECHL teams.




I'm kinda perplexed that you've chosen Brampton as a potential surviving team from the CHL over Denver, Bloomington, and most importantly Arizona. If Brampton for years couldn't succeed in drawing flies to see a successful junior franchise in a market where junior hockey is king, their future attendance will consist of the ushers, the hot-dog vendor, and a goal judge for borderline AA level minor pro hockey. 

Arizona on the other hand have put together a wildly successful season ticket campaign and their spokesperson has said publicly that they will be icing a team next season but they're just not sure in what league. It won't be in the NAHL because why would they have 1000+ game pro and team captain Jason Morgan take part in being suspended above the ground in a wrench lift for days if they were planning on dropping to junior hockey?

Bloomington on the other hand have been given almost zero chance of being successful, as either the Prairie Thunder or the Blaze, due to horrible teams never being successful and equally horrible marketing in that city. If ever there was a catalyst that could change the fate of the franchise, it would be a move to the ECHL complete with new rivalaries with regional opponents like Peoria, Ft. Wayne, and Indy. If they could ever settle ownsership issues, I'd take them over Brampton for the ECHL at the drop of a hat. Victoria Salmon Kings struggled at the gate and so would Brampton. There's just no appetite in Canadian markets other than "the big show", junior, or CIS as proven by consistent attendance numbers in places like Abbotsford and Hamilton. Semi-Minor Pro has very little chance of being successful.

I will say this though, I think that the Denver Cutthroats were never meant to be more than just a one year stop gap to fill the void of the impending NHL labor impasse. Casper Wy. might be an eventual option for the ECHL too.


----------



## JB51Hockey

paul-laus said:


> I'm kinda perplexed that you've chosen Brampton as a potential surviving team from the CHL over Denver, Bloomington, and most importantly Arizona. If Brampton for years couldn't succeed in drawing flies to see a successful junior franchise in a market where junior hockey is king, their future attendance will consist of the ushers, the hot-dog vendor, and a goal judge for borderline AA level minor pro hockey.
> 
> I will say this though, I think that the Denver Cutthroats were never meant to be more than just a one year stop gap to fill the void of the impending NHL labor impasse. Casper Wy. might be an eventual option for the ECHL too.




I think minor league hockey will work there ONLY if they can land a Leafs affiliation. If Brampton can survive in the mid 2,000 for attendance next season I think they can make the jump to the ECHL with a Toronto affiliation. I don't see Arizona moving to the E after averaging 2,500 which would be a bottom 3 in the ECHL. Especially considering they are affiliated with PHX that is only an hour and 30 away... How can you justify 2,900 in Denver in an inaugural season as a success? I chose Brampton because the ECHL is desperate for northeastern franchises with Trenton ceasing operations. No way hockey in Wyoming works either...


----------



## JungleJON

I was wondering too why you have Florida and then Florida in the South division? I know the Everblades are one of the teams and I see you have Orlando, but who is the other Florida team?


----------



## paul-laus

jeben51 said:


> I think minor league hockey will work there ONLY if they can land a Leafs affiliation. If Brampton can survive in the mid 2,000 for attendance next season I think they can make the jump to the ECHL with a Toronto affiliation. I don't see Arizona moving to the E after averaging 2,500 which would be a bottom 3 in the ECHL. Especially considering they are affiliated with PHX that is only an hour and 30 away... How can you justify 2,900 in Denver in an inaugural season as a success? I chose Brampton because the ECHL is desperate for northeastern franchises with Trenton ceasing operations. *No way hockey in Wyoming works either...*





You might be right about Casper Wy, but 4-5 years ago there was a lot of people scratching their heads about a professional hockey team coming to Rapid City thinking it would fail for sure. It was a non traditional hockey market too but the simple truth about the winter season in smaller prairie towns and cities is there isn't a hell of a lot to do and people still do want a night out and entertainment options for their hard earned dollar.


----------



## mfrerkes

paul-laus said:


> I'm kinda perplexed that you've chosen Brampton as a potential surviving team from the CHL over Denver, Bloomington, and most importantly Arizona. If Brampton for years couldn't succeed in drawing flies to see a successful junior franchise in a market where junior hockey is king, their future attendance will consist of the ushers, the hot-dog vendor, and a goal judge for borderline AA level minor pro hockey.




I agree regarding Brampton. It is (at best) an unproven commodity in AA hockey and was an abject failure in junior hockey. If the CHL survives another season, I think Brampton's attendance could go lower than the 1,762 Fort Worth averaged this past season.

I'd put Quad City or Bloomington ahead of Brampton for an ECHL franchise...not that either are particularly strong hockey markets. They just have a better overall history than Brampton does right now. They'd also work well enough to fit between the North or Central divisions.


----------



## Jeffrey99

jeben51 said:


> North: Kalamazoo, Indianapolis, Evansville, Fort Wayne, Cincinnati



So hope this happens. Didn't get into hockey early enough to remember the Indy & Fort Wayne rivalry. Got into hockey around the CHL Indy Ice days when there really wasn't any close competition. Tried to like the USHL Ice but highly prefer going to Cincy and watching the ECHL. Really hoping with the renovation to what was Pepsi Coliseum, that Indy gets another pro hockey team. From what I read, future looks good for that.


----------



## JB51Hockey

SenorChifles said:


> I was wondering too why you have Florida and then Florida in the South division? I know the Everblades are one of the teams and I see you have Orlando, but who is the other Florida team?




Whoops, got confused. One of the Florida's is supposed to be South Carolina


----------



## MavsFanJoe

jeben51 said:


> I know the ECHL made a cap on itself for 26 or something around that number but I think it should go to 30. I don't know all the business aspects but for next season the ECHL will most likely have 24 teams (addition of Allen and Rapid City, subtraction of Trenton). For the 2014-15 season the CHL should be gone by then and the ECHL should add Tulsa, Wichita, Brampton, Missouri along with the expansions of Indianapolis and Peoria. I know this is a lot so hang with me...
> 
> Atlantic: Elmira, Wheeling, Toledo, Reading, Brampton
> North: Kalamazoo, Indianapolis, Evansville, Fort Wayne, Cincinnati
> South: Florida, Greenville, Gwinnett, Orlando, South Carolina
> Central: Peoria, Missouri, Wichita, Allen, Tulsa
> Mountain: Alaska, Boise, Colorado, Rapid City, Utah
> Pacific: Bakersfield, San Francisco, Las Vegas, Ontario, Stockton
> 
> So there's the 30-team league. I think the best way to have it is with 30 NHL, 30 AHL and 30 ECHL teams.




I like the make up of the Central Division. With the exception of Allen, it looks a lot like the IHL of the early 1990's.


----------



## paul-laus

It seems like most people on these boards and the Into The Boards forums have got the impression that the ECHL wouldn't touch CHL markets like Arizona, Ft. Worth, and Bloomington based on attendance alone. While the obvious options like Allen, Rapid City, and Missouri are up for grabs, it's not as if the ECHL haven't propped up their own failed markets for years at a time as well. The mere fact that Wheeling and Elmira are back this season suggests to me that it isn't that unthinkable that the ECHL might at least consider these CHL markets in a new league with better rivalries. The bigger issue for Bloomington is ownership as opposed to attendance and for Ft. Worth a building to play in. 

All one has to do is check out ECHL attendance numbers on a weeknight to realize that 40-50% of the ECHL's markets attendance are pretty close to most of the CHL markets. Charleston and Cincinatti (who are considered to be pretty stable) seemed to to be barely above 3,000 most times I looked and some times under 2,000. To think that a few of the CHL markets couldn't make the jump to the ECHL based on attendance alone belies the fact that the ECHL has markets that have had horrendous attendance for years with a few owners that are prepared to eat the costs. If Trenton's owners were prepared to give it another go this year, the ECHL would have welcomed them back with open arms for another money losing season.


----------



## akacesfan

mfrerkes said:


> I agree regarding Brampton. It is (at best) an unproven commodity in AA hockey and was an abject failure in junior hockey. If the CHL survives another season, I think Brampton's attendance could go lower than the 1,762 Fort Worth averaged this past season.
> 
> I'd put Quad City or Bloomington ahead of Brampton for an ECHL franchise...not that either are particularly strong hockey markets. They just have a better overall history than Brampton does right now. They'd also work well enough to fit between the North or Central divisions.




The Victoria Salmon Kings succeeded in the ECHL, and they would still be around today if the owner of the Chilliwack Bruins decided to keep the team in Chilliwack. I have a feeling that the Beast may draw better than you all think they will.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

If Elmira, Wheeling and Trenton(until this year)can last year after year with losing all that kinda cash the ECHL might as well jump in hard for QC and Bloomy!


----------



## LadyStanley

CHL Arizona -- The ECHL has already tried and failed twice in the Phoenix area. Unclear if they'd go for a third attempt.


----------



## Slowe

Just merge already...

As for Arizona, they already have a team that theoretically is capable of surviving. Salaries may be higher in the ECHL, but travel would have to be so much lower. 

So that leaves you with these little games where the CHL charges you for leaving and the ECHL charges you for joining. So no team goes anywhere. Stop the petty games and merge the leagues already. Forget capping the ECHL at 30. Take any team strong enough to join. It just make sense.

I say it's about time the ECHL significantly drops the cost to join. Lure the strong CHL teams, kill the league and be done with it.


----------



## MavsFanJoe

Slowe said:


> Just merge already...
> 
> As for Arizona, they already have a team that theoretically is capable of surviving. Salaries may be higher in the ECHL, but travel would have to be so much lower.
> 
> So that leaves you with these little games where the CHL charges you for leaving and the ECHL charges you for joining. So no team goes anywhere. Stop the petty games and merge the leagues already. Forget capping the ECHL at 30. Take any team strong enough to join. It just make sense.
> 
> I say it's about time the ECHL significantly drops the cost to join. Lure the strong CHL teams, kill the league and be done with it.



I agree wholeheartedly. It sure would make my silly season much easier on my digestion. The silly season has been absolutely crazy every year since the Mavericks joined the CHL in 2009/10.


----------



## Presstizzle

any body know whats going on down in augusta last update was wednesday.


----------



## MxH0CKEY

Well the Allen Americans just won the CHL championship. Does this entice the ECHL to scoop them up? Any new update?


----------



## JungleJON

Many people are waiting for the announcement of both Rapid City & Allen to say they are joining the ECHL - who knows if others teams have been invited - time will tell.


----------



## SemireliableSource

The ECHL didn't need any enticing. This move was a done deal a while ago. It's just a matter of when it's announced.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

http://www.pjstar.com/news/x8114378...vic-Center-it-wont-operate-AHL-team-in-Peoria

Peoria and Bloomington going to SPHL next season. Could others be following shortly?

The CHL is looking very, very shaky. The end could be sooner rather than later. 

2012-13 CHL teams and my guesses for the status of each next season:

Allen (ECHL)
Wichita (CHL/ECHL)
Fort Worth (junior/fold)
Rapid City (ECHL)
Missouri (CHL/ECHL)
Quad City (CHL/fold/junior/SPHL)
Arizona (CHL/ECHL/fold)
Denver (CHL/fold)
Bloomington (SPHL)
Tulsa (CHL/junior)

Expansion:
St. Charles (DOA/SPHL)
Brampton (CHL/DOA)

At most the CHL would have Wichita, Missouri, Denver, QC Arizona, Tulsa and the 2 expansion teams. I find this scenario very unlikely. Should Wichita and/or Missouri leave for the ECHL, then I believe the CHL would cease to exist.


----------



## JB51Hockey

Cyclones Rock said:


> http://www.pjstar.com/news/x8114378...vic-Center-it-wont-operate-AHL-team-in-Peoria
> 
> Peoria and Bloomington going to SPHL next season. Could others be following shortly?




Wow, didn't see Peoria and Bloomington to the SPHL! At least it's not the Fed and I'm glad the fans will have entertainment on the weekends. 

I can't see Allen joining the ECHL unless Tulsa and Wichita join (if ever). Every road game for Allen would mean a flight. Mike Modano is somehow affiliated with the team, right? GM, owner, executive? Maybe he will fund the travel....


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Wow.... Peoria to the SPHL is honestly a shocking move. If they're able to keep that market, Peoria would be a big coup for the SPHL, even with the distance factor.


----------



## JungleJON

It could be that the new owners of the Peoria franchise want to keep hockey alive and then possibly move to the ECHL next season when Indianapolis enters the league.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

SenorChifles said:


> It could be that the new owners of the Peoria franchise want to keep hockey alive and then possibly move to the ECHL next season when Indianapolis enters the league.




My hunch as well, even without Indy, though I'm sure that Peoria staying for the long haul is part of the SPHL's wishful thinking.


----------



## CShuckWangGoAway*

You guys aren't giving the SPHl enough credit. the league has improved every year, and when the CHL goes away, that will basically replace it. It won't be the AHL but either will be the ECHL.

@SPHL_Nation


----------



## JungleJON

Didn't say that the SPHL was a bad league, just stating the fact that the owners probably do not want to put the franchise on the shelf for a year until they can try and join the ECHL.
I think the fans in Peoria would want to have Indy, Ft. Wayne, Kalamazoo, Toledo, Cincy & Evansville as rivals as they are closer and have a history.
The SPHL fills a void for the Southern cities and they have grown each of the last few years. I am surprised they have not tried to go after Greensboro, Roanoke, Richmond and Birmingham to name a few.


----------



## JB51Hockey

CShuckWangGoAway said:


> You guys aren't giving the SPHl enough credit. the league has improved every year, and when the CHL goes away, that will basically replace it. It won't be the AHL but either will be the ECHL.
> 
> @SPHL_Nation




No one is knocking the SPHL...


----------



## No Fun Shogun

CShuckWangGoAway said:


> You guys aren't giving the SPHl enough credit. the league has improved every year, and when the CHL goes away, that will basically replace it. It won't be the AHL but either will be the ECHL.
> 
> @SPHL_Nation




No one's knocking the SPHL, but it is single A to the ECHL and CHL's AA (albeit the CHL is lower AA).


----------



## SemireliableSource

jeben51 said:


> I can't see Allen joining the ECHL unless Tulsa and Wichita join (if ever). Every road game for Allen would mean a flight. Mike Modano is somehow affiliated with the team, right? GM, owner, executive? Maybe he will fund the travel....




See it. It's happening. Modano, Craig Ludwig, and Ed Belfour are all part owners.


----------



## JB51Hockey

FrancoRussianAlaskan said:


> See it. It's happening. Modano, Craig Ludwig, and Ed Belfour are all part owners.




I guess if Alaska can survive then anywhere in North America a team can. Hopefully they will be in the western conference. Flights from Dallas-Denver, San Fran, LAX are probably cheaper than ATL, PHI, DET


----------



## CShuckWangGoAway*

SenorChifles said:


> Didn't say that the SPHL was a bad league, just stating the fact that the owners probably do not want to put the franchise on the shelf for a year until they can try and join the ECHL.
> I think the fans in Peoria would want to have Indy, Ft. Wayne, Kalamazoo, Toledo, Cincy & Evansville as rivals as they are closer and have a history.
> The SPHL fills a void for the Southern cities and they have grown each of the last few years. I am surprised they have not tried to go after Greensboro, Roanoke, Richmond and Birmingham to name a few.




I didn't say you were knocking it, I said people here weren't giving it enough credit.

I know you people have dreams of the ECHL again, but if they are going to own both teams, why would they move one to the ECHL? They're not going to move one of these teams away from the other when they own both of them. 

And how do you know all of those teams are going to stay in the ECHL? 

Me thinks some more moves are coming soon.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

CShuckWangGoAway said:


> I didn't say you were knocking it, I said people here weren't giving it enough credit.
> 
> I know you people have dreams of the ECHL again, but if they are going to own both teams, why would they move one to the ECHL? They're not going to move one of these teams away from the other when they own both of them.
> 
> And how do you know all of those teams are going to stay in the ECHL?
> *
> Me thinks some more moves are coming soon*.




The SPHL just made a move which caught almost everyone off guard. I'd think that this is just a first step in a strategic plan to grow single A hockey in the midwest and the east along with their traditional southern base.

In the midwest, Quad City (CHL) and St. Charles (CHL expansion) come immediately to mind as future SPHL markets. In the east, Elmira (ECHL), Wheeling (ECHL), Danbury (FHL), Trenton (formerly ECHL) and, yes, Reading (ECHL). In the south, both South Carolina (ECHL), Greenville(ECHL) and even Gwinnett (ECHL) and Florida (ECHL) could be target SPHL markets as well. These markets-for various reasons-seem more suited to the single A model of hockey than the AA.

I agree, many more moves could be coming very soon. The Peoria move to the SPHL instead of the ECHL was a shocker, and Bloomington bolting the CHL for the SPHL set the groundwork for moves which weren't even on most peoples' radars just two days ago.


----------



## SemireliableSource

The Bloomington/Peoria move to the SPHL was a shock but not because Peoria didn't go to the ECHL. The ECHL wouldn't have gone into Peoria until at least 14-15 and Bloomington knew this so when the Canucks said "nope" they acted quickly and applied to the SPHL.


----------



## paul-laus

CShuckWangGoAway;65961815[B said:


> _]You guys aren't giving the SPHl enough credit_[/B]. the league has improved every year, and when the CHL goes away, that will basically replace it. It won't be the AHL but either will be the ECHL.
> 
> @SPHL_Nation




You can count me as someone who doesn't give the SPHL a lot of credit. I'll give them this, they've carved out their niche market in the deep south and succeeded as developing into the "only" single A league where the Mid-Atlantic Hockey League, AAHL, EPHL, and assuredly the FHL have/will fail. I'm sure they have a cult following in a few of their markets particularly Knoxville, Fayetteville, and Huntsville. 

That being said, I've watched from a distance as two clubs, JAX and now Augusta played games in practice rinks where 800-1100 fans could watch. Jacksonville was in the SPHL finals when they played their games in their practice facility. That wasn't a pre-season game, that was the SPHL finals. Augusta's mess finished today with them throwing in the towel and bowing out when they could have announced their withdrawl from this upcoming season 2 months ago. No negotiations have been taking place between the owners and the James Brown arena managment regarding the ice system for some time but yet they waited until the SPHL needed a definitive answer before announcing the obvious which 90% of the people in this forum could have figured out.

It speaks volumes about how the SPHL upper crust runs their league. Since 2005-06, Combs has publicly stated that his ideal vision for the SPHL is a 10-12 team loop based in the South East. For the last 3 summers, Combs has stated publicly that between 1-3 teams will be joining for the following season. This hasn't happened for the last two seasons and don't fool yourself into thinking that the plan all along was to poach Bloomington and Peoria from the CHL and AHL. This has completely fallen into their lap and it takes them significantly out of their footprint in the South. 

They have had a lopsided conference of 9 teams now for 2-3 seasons and although SPHL owners claim that they want to grow the league slowly and with purpose with the right owners, I think that they would have taken on markets as far-fetched as Tupelo and Talahassee in order to give them an even number of teams had their been any type of ownership options in those markets. 

Attendance in some of their better markets has dropped the last number of years and the ownership in one of their more stable markets (Columbus) publicly wondered if it was worth it to come back for another season. My understanding is that the Mississipi Surge organization owned by Tim Kerr is very much in flux trying to secure a semi-legitimate number of season tickets to dictate whether it is worth coming back for another season and were struggling mightily to secure a pretty low number of season tickets. Then there's Pensacola and the ongoing debacle with Escambia County on whether it's feasible to make necessary upgrades to the facility on a money losing operation. Enough money in the treasury? Probably. But if that's your most recent league champ and there are serious questions regarding their long-term viability, I think this also speaks volumes about the league right now.

In short, straying significantly outside your geographic footprint to add two markets with one almost certainly hoping for a 1 year stop gap before the ECHL (and more natural rivalries) also says something. So perhaps your right. I'm not giving the SPHL that much credit at the moment....


----------



## CShuckWangGoAway*

Augusta only played in that rink because their ice system went down. 

They are so far above what they were since Jacksonville was in the league it's not even close to that. 

I'm not saying it's NHL, and your post is just further proof that people don't give the league enough credit.


----------



## LadyStanley

http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=4594412

SPHL Augusta team statement: hiatus for 13-14; hope to be back for 14-15.


----------



## bhigo59

Cyclones Rock said:


> The SPHL just made a move which caught almost everyone off guard. I'd think that this is just a first step in a strategic plan to grow single A hockey in the midwest and the east along with their traditional southern base.
> 
> In the midwest, Quad City (CHL) and St. Charles (CHL expansion) come immediately to mind as future SPHL markets. In the east, Elmira (ECHL), Wheeling (ECHL), Danbury (FHL), Trenton (formerly ECHL) and, yes, Reading (ECHL). In the south, both South Carolina (ECHL), Greenville(ECHL) and even Gwinnett (ECHL) and Florida (ECHL) could be target SPHL markets as well. These markets-for various reasons-seem more suited to the single A model of hockey than the AA.
> 
> I agree, many more moves could be coming very soon. The Peoria move to the SPHL instead of the ECHL was a shocker, and Bloomington bolting the CHL for the SPHL set the groundwork for moves which weren't even on most peoples' radars just two days ago.




Your just upset that Reading beat the Cyclones in 5 to advance to the Kelly Cup Finals. I'd like to know what your basis is for making these predictions. If it's attendance only you better look around a little more. Attendance between Reading and Cincy is comparable. Why didn't you include Kalamazoo?


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

The ECHL would have been better off getting Peoria, Rapid City and Allen while dumping Elmira and Wheeling.


----------



## akacesfan

Am I the only one here that wants the ECHL to keep Wheeling? In a way, it's the last of the original small-town markets of the ECHL. If the Nailers die, so does a large piece of league history.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

bhigo59 said:


> Your just upset that Reading beat the Cyclones in 5 to advance to the Kelly Cup Finals. I'd like to know what your basis is for making these predictions. If it's attendance only you better look around a little more. Attendance between Reading and Cincy is comparable. Why didn't you include Kalamazoo?




I am not happy that the Cyclones lost to the Royals, but that's not why I have them on a potential endangered list.

Their nearest rival-Trenton-just folded. Elmira and Wheeling both have well-documented problems. If these two teams leave the ECHL, then the Royals would be about 500 miles from their nearest ECHL opponent.

Add the Allentown AHL Flyer affiliate in a brand new arena less than 35 miles away from Reading and that doesn't help the Royals at all.

The Royals attendance has been falling for years as well.

I went to both of the Conf. Finals games in Reading and enjoyed myself. The arena is great and the fans and staff were very nice. I do not wish the Royals any ill at all. In fact, I hope that they can win the Kelly Cup. I think that they will. Enjoy it, if you're a Royals fan.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

akacesfan said:


> Am I the only one here that wants the ECHL to keep Wheeling? In a way, it's the last of the original small-town markets of the ECHL. If the Nailers die, so does a large piece of league history.




I'm with you completely. I make it a point to go see a Cyclones game each year in Wheeling. 

I never like seeing a city lose its team. The Wheeling market is a throwback to the original days of the ECHL. Losing Wheeling and/or Elmira would be a shame. The league still seems to be missing a piece to me. No Johnstown was/is a huge loss.


----------



## akacesfan

The Aces have only played the Nailers three times. All three were in Alaska during the 2004-05 season, and if I remember correctly, Aces swept them.

I still have a ton of respect for Wheeling. I remember that they made a point of playing tough, hard-nosed hockey with lots of grinding on the boards. Do they still play that kind of style?


----------



## JB51Hockey

bhigo59 said:


> Your just upset that Reading beat the Cyclones in 5 to advance to the Kelly Cup Finals. I'd like to know what your basis is for making these predictions. If it's attendance only you better look around a little more. Attendance between Reading and Cincy is comparable. Why didn't you include Kalamazoo?




Because Kalamazoo owns their arena 1,000 in K-zoo equal 8,000 in most other buildings in terms of profit.


----------



## tvboy11

There are a lot of minor-league teams that are money-losing operations. It isn't limited to some of the lower leagues of hockey, like the SPHL, and it certainly isn't limited to hockey. Attrition is part of minor-league sports - it takes deep pockets, patience and a willingness to eat some loss to be a minor-league owner.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

akacesfan said:


> The Aces have only played the Nailers three times. All three were in Alaska during the 2004-05 season, and if I remember correctly, Aces swept them.
> 
> I still have a ton of respect for Wheeling. I remember that they made a point of playing tough, hard-nosed hockey with lots of grinding on the boards. Do they still play that kind of style?




Much less hitting and fighting these days. IMO, that's a big part of the problem regarding attendance with a lot of the markets which are dying or have died.

The casual hockey attendee LOVES the fighting. I hear these types all the time. "When are they going to fight?"
Bettman hockey might work in the NHL and possibly the AHL, but the lack of fighting is really taking a toll in the lower minor league markets, Wheeling being one of those. It doesn't have to be that way.


----------



## SemireliableSource

Definitely. When the Pensacola Ice Flyers brought in Mark Vida, he knocked a guy out with one punch in his first game. When he got cut leading up to the playoffs you'd think the team had folded mid-season. People lost their minds.

That's not even playing "Bettman Hockey", that's realizing that scoring takes precedence over flying fists and even more so in the post season.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Cyclones Rock said:


> I am not happy that the Cyclones lost to the Royals, but that's not why I have them on a potential endangered list.
> 
> Their nearest rival-Trenton-just folded. Elmira and Wheeling both have well-documented problems. If these two teams leave the ECHL, then the Royals would be about 500 miles from their nearest ECHL opponent.
> 
> Add the Allentown AHL Flyer affiliate in a brand new arena less than 35 miles away from Reading and that doesn't help the Royals at all.
> 
> The Royals attendance has been falling for years as well.
> 
> I went to both of the Conf. Finals games in Reading and enjoyed myself. The arena is great *and the fans and staff were very nice*. I do not wish the Royals any ill at all. In fact, I hope that they can win the Kelly Cup. I think that they will. Enjoy it, if you're a Royals fan.




Some....lol


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Cyclones Rock said:


> Much less hitting and fighting these days. IMO, that's a big part of the problem regarding attendance with a lot of the markets which are dying or have died.
> 
> The casual hockey attendee LOVES the fighting. I hear these types all the time. "When are they going to fight?"
> Bettman hockey might work in the NHL and possibly the AHL, but the lack of fighting is really taking a toll in the lower minor league markets, Wheeling being one of those. It doesn't have to be that way.




True. Thats because these Wheeling/Elmira types have seen the other side of the coin. Wheeling the small ECHL. Elmira the old UHL. The smaller ECHL meant you played teams quite often so rivalries would develop. The old UHL was similar. Now you have roste shufling every week and more opponents on the schedule. I miss the fighting/excitement/passion. Now it's a bunch of self-righteous young pukes who think they are entitled and better than where they are at, at that moment.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Cyclones Rock said:


> I'm with you completely. I make it a point to go see a Cyclones game each year in Wheeling.
> 
> I never like seeing a city lose its team. The Wheeling market is a throwback to the original days of the ECHL. Losing Wheeling and/or Elmira would be a shame. The league still seems to be missing a piece to me. No Johnstown was/is a huge loss.




I guess I could see Wheeling as they are a long standing member and all. But Elmira not so much. I just think it's the inevitable truth. Minor league hockey really passed over the small markets a decade ago. Don't ever really expect another small market to land in this league again.


----------



## JB51Hockey

BK Triple Threat said:


> I guess I could see Wheeling as they are a long standing member and all. But Elmira not so much. I just think it's the inevitable truth. Minor league hockey really passed over the small markets a decade ago. Don't ever really expect another small market to land in this league again.




Sad, isn't it? 10 years ago we had Huntington, WV, Johnstown, PA, and Trenton, NJ. Now we have San Francisco, Orlando and Las Vegas.


----------



## JungleJON

It was sad that Johnstown left the ECHL, but they had an outside owner and he put very little $$$ into the team. Their last season was a joke.
But now they have a team in the NAHL, the Tomahawks. Very good first season, made the playoffs. Averaged over 2,500 look to see that increase next season. Season tickets should pass the 1,000 mark.
Difference - group of owners (local - Pittsburgh area), brought back a few of the ex-Chiefs to run the team as GM, coach and asst. coach. Made an impact in the community - their presence was known.
I would not want them to return to a higher class league as would most people in Johnstown. For many of the small cities juniors is the way to go.
Would not be surprised to see Wheeling & Elmira drop down in a few years.


----------



## JB51Hockey

SenorChifles said:


> It was sad that Johnstown left the ECHL, but they had an outside owner and he put very little $$$ into the team. Their last season was a joke.But now they have a team in the NAHL, the Tomahawks. Very good first season, made the playoffs. Averaged over 2,500 look to see that increase next season. Season tickets should pass the 1,000 mark.Difference - group of owners (local - Pittsburgh area), brought back a few of the ex-Chiefs to run the team as GM, coach and asst. coach. Made an impact in the community - their presence was known.I would not want them to return to a higher class league as would most people in Johnstown. For many of the small cities juniors is the way to go. Would not be surprised to see Wheeling & Elmira drop down in a few years.




Never made it out to a game but I was dying to go to a 'Hawks game. Been to the arena a bit for a Chiefs game and went to one between Reading and Wheeling a few years ago. There couldn't have been more than 500 people there... From the looks of videos, the Tomahawks seem to be a success in Johnstown for now. Let's hope people don't get bored of the team and stop supporting them.


----------



## LadyStanley

No Fun Shogun said:


> At least according to Peoria media, the Rivermen are coming back.... albeit in the SPHL, a low-tier barely Single A league.
> 
> http://www.pjstar.com/news/x8114378...vic-Center-it-wont-operate-AHL-team-in-Peoria
> 
> It corroborates the reports that the Nucks' AHL franchise will be dormant for a year, though.




So Peoria getting SPHL hockey.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

SenorChifles said:


> It was sad that Johnstown left the ECHL, but they had an outside owner and he put very little $$$ into the team. Their last season was a joke.
> But now they have a team in the NAHL, the Tomahawks. Very good first season, made the playoffs. Averaged over 2,500 look to see that increase next season. Season tickets should pass the 1,000 mark.
> Difference - group of owners (local - Pittsburgh area), brought back a few of the ex-Chiefs to run the team as GM, coach and asst. coach. Made an impact in the community - their presence was known.
> I would not want them to return to a higher class league as would most people in Johnstown. For many of the small cities juniors is the way to go.
> Would not be surprised to see Wheeling & Elmira drop down in a few years.




I look at it as Juniors have improved and the ECHL to a degree has declined. It's not the league it started out as. Maybe they intended it to be a developmental league but it did not always play out as it does now. Now the majority of the players in the league are of organizational contract, etc. Playing for the team is secondary it's more so your career. People from a big place wouldn't get this but in a smaller city, the type in which this league was started in player continuity is important, you just don't have that anymore


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Wait, am I reading this right?



> HUNTERSVILLE, NC – The Southern Professional Hockey League (SPHL) today announced its Board of Governors has unanimously approved the Bloomington Blaze and Peoria Rivermen to join the league for the 2013-2014 season.
> 
> The teams will be owned and operated by Illinois Pro Sports, LLC, whose members have extensive experience at all levels of professional hockey.



http://www.thesphl.com/view/thesphl/news/news_72402

The new Rivermen and the Blaze are going to be owned by the same group?


----------



## z2m4o

I live in Bloomington and work in Peoria, been around the Rivermen since I was 3. The way it's sounding around here is that they are just kind of pooling the resources to get both teams and get a rivalry going. I think Saurs will run Peoria and the Bloom guys will run them obviously but to me, knowing the local "hockey fans" this is going to be BIG around here. (In minor league hockey scope) Saurs is a GREAT person and a smart man, he will do the things necessary to get Peoria back to the atmosphere they used to have.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Good to know, and hope you're right. I'm originally from Champaign, but have only been to a few Rivermen games and never to a game in Bloomington, so I barely have passing knowledge of their fandom, history, and culture. Hope they're able to build a real good rivalry and grow on that, though I'm half expecting a bit of a shock from Peoria fans used to AAA hockey experiencing Single A for a change.


----------



## SemireliableSource

Kupaks says the St. Charles Chill will play this season and in a follow up tweet she says she is no longer on staff.

https://twitter.com/NHLTIM/status/334459774664069121


----------



## PredsFanFromla

I am excited about Peoria and Bloomington joining the SPHL,The IceGators and Peoria can renew their 1999-2000 ECHL Championship Series Rivalary.

Cannot wait for the 2013-2014 season to start


----------



## Vicente

Hi guys. I am really interested in minor pro hockey in the States and Canada but as a European I have barely a chance to follow all this. Am I right that the SPHL is the big winner this year regarding team changes? 

And why is the league actually considered to be of such low quality? For a single a league they seem to have quite big and modern arenas.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

Vicente said:


> Hi guys. I am really interested in minor pro hockey in the States and Canada but as a European I have barely a chance to follow all this. Am I right that the SPHL is the big winner this year regarding team changes?
> 
> And why is the league actually considered to be of such low quality? For a single a league they seem to have quite big and modern arenas.




I think that you are correct that the SPHL is the big winner.

The league has taken a bold move out of its geography-although not a crazy one-and is now primed to move to many markets in the midwest. There is an abundance of arenas and markets in the midwest which would be better served by the business model (economics) of the SPHL compared to the ECHL or CHL. A typical SPHL budget is in the $1.2 million range compared to about double that for an ECHL team.

The league is a lower level than the ECHL or CHL, but it has some good players in it. I've seen more than a few SPHL players make it up to the ECHL and some have been quite good.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Vicente said:


> Hi guys. I am really interested in minor pro hockey in the States and Canada but as a European I have barely a chance to follow all this. Am I right that the SPHL is the big winner this year regarding team changes?
> 
> And why is the league actually considered to be of such low quality? For a single a league they seem to have quite big and modern arenas.




Kinda. Peoria's a good grab for the SPHL, but that was mostly a circumstance of the AHL moving out and the ECHL and CHL not being able to add/move a team fast enough. I'd say that the AHL is a wash, ECHL is a wash, CHL is a loss (albeit they're losing a very underperforming team), and SPHL is a gain, so overall a net positive, but I wouldn't say that they're huge winners. Time will tell regarding Peoria and Bloomington, as the former is a market used to much higher levels of play so it's not clear that a drop from AAA to single A will be entirely embraced and Bloomington has their fair share of economic issues, too.

And it's considered low quality just because there are plenty of other leagues above it. It's undeniable that the AHL, ECHL, and CHL feature higher qualities of play, due to actual affiliation agreements that are in place.

It's just a low-tier, Single-A league. Nothing wrong with that, though.


----------



## Vicente

Just curious - I bet this has been discussed multiple times but hey I am not from the States  - why don't they merge the ECHL/CHL and let the current CHL teams become some sort of own ECHL conference?


----------



## LadyStanley

Vicente said:


> Just curious - I bet this has been discussed multiple times but hey I am not from the States  - why don't they merge the ECHL/CHL and let the current CHL teams become some sort of own ECHL conference?




Different leagues. ECHL merged with WCHL in 2003.

Will take effort from current ECHL and CHL "powers that be" to do merger.


----------



## PredsFanFromla

Vicente said:


> Hi guys. I am really interested in minor pro hockey in the States and Canada but as a European I have barely a chance to follow all this. Am I right that the SPHL is the big winner this year regarding team changes?
> 
> And why is the league actually considered to be of such low quality? For a single a league they seem to have quite big and modern arenas.





This is the arena that the Louisiana Icegators play in:


----------



## Vicente

LadyStanley said:


> Different leagues. ECHL merged with WCHL in 2003.
> 
> Will take effort from current ECHL and CHL "powers that be" to do merger.




Sure. But let's say you are a team owner. Would you rather try your luck in a big, well-working league like ECHL then would be or in a league where nobody knows how long they will make it?!


----------



## jabberoski

LadyStanley said:


> Different leagues. ECHL merged with WCHL in 2003.
> 
> Will take effort from current ECHL and CHL "powers that be" to do merger.




Technically, it was not a merger. The teams from the WCHL joined the ECHL as expansion teams, and the WCHL ceased to exist.


----------



## HansH

LadyStanley said:


> Different leagues. ECHL merged with WCHL in 2003.




That's not actually correct. The WCHL folded, and the six remaining teams were admitted as expansion teams to the ECHL, having to purchase expansion franchises (they weren't let in for free). The UHL (doing business as the IHL) "merged" with the WPHL (doing business as the CHL) for a couple of seasons - and there were different circumstances and negotiations required.

Yes, I'm being technical, and the effect is similar to a merger, but there are some details and fine points where it matters.

(Similarly, there was no merger of the IHL and the AHL -- the IHL folded, and a few remaining teams were granted AHL expansion franchises -- I'm not sure whether they had to purchase those franchises a la the former WCHL teams and the ECHL, but I'd wager there was some need for the remaining IHL teams to "buy in" to the league with more than just their yearly dues).


----------



## HansH

Vicente said:


> Sure. But let's say you are a team owner. Would you rather try your luck in a big, well-working league like ECHL then would be or in a league where nobody knows how long they will make it?!




Let's say you're an owner of a team that is currently playing in the WPHL (doing business as the CHL). You have a signed agreement with the WPHL that allows you to play as a team in that league, and you have other assets. Most leagues have provisions in their agreements that prevent team owners from just jumping to another league without paying some kind of penalty, or, like a non-compete agreement, without sitting out at least one season. So, during the time of the contract (agreement) with the league, you, the WPHL team owner, cannot simply just move to the ECHL. You need to wait until the period of the contract is up, or hope the league folds, or grants you permission, or that you can buy your way out.

Fort Wayne and Evansville were, IIRC, technically UHL franchises playing in a merged interlocking schedule with the CHL for a couple of seasons during the period of the UHL/WPHL agreement. When that agreement was over (two seasons, again, IIRC) those owners became free agents, and chose to acquire ECHL franchises instead of re-upping with the UHL (which no longer exists) or the WPHL.

That may be why Rapid City (rumored to be going to the ECHL) didn't jump with Evansville and Fort Wayne -- they were a full WPHL franchise, and were thus restricted by the terms of their agreement with the WPHL. This season's portability likely is because their WPHL agreement's term is over.


----------



## GKJ

Cyclones Rock said:


> I am not happy that the Cyclones lost to the Royals, but that's not why I have them on a potential endangered list.
> 
> Their nearest rival-Trenton-just folded. Elmira and Wheeling both have well-documented problems. If these two teams leave the ECHL, then the Royals would be about 500 miles from their nearest ECHL opponent.
> 
> Add the Allentown AHL Flyer affiliate in a brand new arena less than 35 miles away from Reading and that doesn't help the Royals at all.
> 
> The Royals attendance has been falling for years as well.
> 
> I went to both of the Conf. Finals games in Reading and enjoyed myself. The arena is great and the fans and staff were very nice. I do not wish the Royals any ill at all. In fact, I hope that they can win the Kelly Cup. I think that they will. Enjoy it, if you're a Royals fan.




Trenton is on hiatus I think. They'll be back soon enough.


----------



## Vicente

Thank you guys for all your information! So we can say "good" CHL teams are more or less hoping for their league to get in serious trouble asap to get into another league?!

Does this terrible Federal Hockey League actually still exist?! I mean I followed the thread about the league from time to time during the last 3 years and it was more than amusing. Just like pure comedy. And what's up with teams like Danbury Whalers? I always thought they could do a little better than FHL. 

From time to time you would have a look at the standings on the FHL website and half the teams were missing the others relocated or renamed or both. 

I remember a NY Times article about them aswell. I guess they won't expand once more?!


----------



## Gibbie42

The agreement was between the CHL and the IHL(2), the league that the Frankes helped to create. It was a two year marketing agreement between the two leagues. At the end of it Quad City chose to sign a standard 10 year agreement with the CHL, The IceMen and the Komets joined the ECHL and the Gems folded. The Bloomington Prairie Thunder had gone out of business the season before and had been replaced by the Blaze, who again signed a standard 10 year deal with the CHL.

I have heard that the ECHL revoked Trenton's franchise after they went dark. Despite what they stated in their pressser, they are not widely expected to come back.


----------



## paul-laus

SPHL Augusta team statement: hiatus for 13-14; *hope to be back for 14-15.*


Well good luck with that. In other news the Cincinatti Railraiders will finally take the ice next season.


----------



## Whiskers06

Well from the looks of it, it sounds like the SPHL will have more of a decent season this year compared to the last few. Now my question is, will the rosters of Peoria and Bloomington already be set or will there be an 'expansion' draft like what happened with Pensacola and the others? Now with Augusta, that hurts IMO. Losing a team in a league like this hurts for the fans. I honestly hope here in the future they can get the ice machines fixed and come back in 14-15. With Peoria and Bloomington being added, it really makes for some long travels, especially for Pensacola and Louisiana..... Hopefully they can add a few more teams in-between to make the road trip a little easier....Now here is hoping that Richmond and maybe Pee-Dee could get teams back together and possible throw in Jacksonville again? This league has all it needs to be great and make fans really want to go to games, just need more teams!


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Gibbie42 said:


> The agreement was between the CHL and the IHL(2), the league that the Frankes helped to create. It was a two year marketing agreement between the two leagues. At the end of it Quad City chose to sign a standard 10 year agreement with the CHL, The IceMen and the Komets joined the ECHL and the Gems folded. The Bloomington Prairie Thunder had gone out of business the season before and had been replaced by the Blaze, who again signed a standard 10 year deal with the CHL.
> 
> I have heard that the ECHL revoked Trenton's franchise after they went dark. Despite what they stated in their pressser, they are not widely expected to come back.




Where did you hear that? Shocking since the commish is a former GM of theirs.


----------



## Gibbie42

I picked that tidbit up off another hockey board and there was a new article for it, trying to locate it now. I think the thread it was in may have been deleted (not for that reason, it had rambled somewhere bad). I'll post it if I the article again.


----------



## SemireliableSource

GKJ said:


> Trenton is on hiatus I think. They'll be back soon enough.




They sold all their training equipment to the new Rivermen. I'm not sure they plan on coming back.



Whiskers06 said:


> With Peoria and Bloomington being added, it really makes for some long travels, especially for Pensacola and Louisiana.




It's funny you mention Louisiana. Bloomington and Peoria are actually closer to Lafayette than Fayetteville is.



Whiskers06 said:


> Now here is hoping that Richmond and maybe Pee-Dee could get teams back together and possible throw in Jacksonville again?




Jacksonville's not going to happen. There's a reason the Barracudas played one season in a rec rink after they couldn't get a favorable lease extension with the JVMA.


----------



## MinWild1

Would love to see the Green Bay Gamblers make the jump to the ECHL. Ive gone to Gamblers games, I know they are usually a good team, but I just cant get into Junior Hockey, guys are young and not developed yet, its hard to get into it when your used to watching the NHL and AHL.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

That's a big jump, though. Complete roster turnover and they actually have to pay their players in the ECHL, albeit a pittance. Not to mention giving up complete organizational independence to be affiliated with the NHL and AHL might be a tough pill for them to swallow.

Green Bay's ownership is probably very happy where they're at, with such low overhead. Probably in the same boat as the Toledo Walleye's ownership, who are perfectly happy to be in the ECHL versus the AHL.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Color me stupid but is this Green Bay Wisconsin?


----------



## Seth Lake

BK Triple Threat said:


> Color me stupid but is this Green Bay Wisconsin?




Yes, the Green Bay Gamblers of the USHL.


----------



## MinWild1

No Fun Shogun said:


> That's a big jump, though. Complete roster turnover and they actually have to pay their players in the ECHL, albeit a pittance. Not to mention giving up complete organizational independence to be affiliated with the NHL and AHL might be a tough pill for them to swallow.
> 
> Green Bay's ownership is probably very happy where they're at, with such low overhead. Probably in the same boat as the Toledo Walleye's ownership, who are perfectly happy to be in the ECHL versus the AHL.




Just cause your an ECHL Franchise doesn't necessarily mean you have to be affiliated with an AHL and NHL team. The Las Vegas Wranglers aren't affiliated with anyone for an example.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Okay I see. If they can house an NFL team with less than 1 million I think they can try ECHL.


----------



## mfrerkes

Fort Worth is now being run by the CHL according to the Brahma's Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Fort-Worth-Brahmas/286814841418483?hc_location=timeline

Looks like another Quad City in the making.


----------



## SemireliableSource

According to some connected fans, it's a frustrated staffer and the post was designed to put pressure on the ownership and the league. The CHL isn't running Fort Worth quite yet and the players/staff are frustrated due to bounced checks.

Basically some of the staff has gone rogue and if the team wasn't dead already, they pretty much are now thanks to the added drama.


----------



## Kapn Kaveman

I do believe I hear a death rattle:

http://thejuniorhockeynews.com/?p=15119


----------



## IceFlyersRule

Dont Believe this website, this guys talks from his butt alot. but I do know that the CHL has taken control of the Brahmas. it was posted on the teams facebook yesterday. Id say the CHL is about to kick the bucket. the FHL not far after.


----------



## JungleJON

You don't believe the guy from Junior Hockey News, but yes to Facebook? Someone posted on the CHLfourms site that the post was from one of the employees who hasn't been paid. He did it out of spite. So I would not rely too much of Facebook.


----------



## SemireliableSource

TJHN is different than JuniorHockey.com. I believe the person IFR is thinking of is Stephen Heisler with JuniorHockey.com. I'm personally not a fan of his but also have my hesitations about TJHN as well.

The post on the Brahmas Facebook saying the league has taken over the team isn't true as Senor said. It was posted by a staff member (I think I know who but if it is this person, I'm surprised they'd act this way) and was designed as a kick in the pants of the league and the "owners" to pay what is owed.


----------



## PCSPounder

...as if "people aren't getting paid" doesn't sound the alarms around here.


----------



## IceFlyersRule

Sorry maybe FB isnt the best place. But I did see it posted on facebook. Just going with what was posted. Sad to see what the Brahmas and the CHL has become. Reminds me of IHL 2.0 sorta


----------



## paul-laus

This is borderline ridiculous that we are one day out of June and almost nothing is settled or finalized in minor hockey. AHL still have to figure out the Peoria move. The ECHL still haven't finalized which teams are being poached from the CHL yet and their cast for next season. Almost every team in the CHL is in turmoil and the two expansion teams seem like they could be hit or miss if the league even exists. Wasn't there a 10 team minimum being bandied about for awhile for the league to continue? Federal Hockey League have 4 teams as of right now for next season. 

And around and around we go. I can't believe these leagues (minus the FHL where it's the norm) seem perfectly content to have schedules, ticket sales, marketing, etc. in disarray this late into the Summer when they should be getting their act together for next season. It'd be almost laughable if the consequences weren't so dire.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Saw this posted in a Facebook Group:



> Darryl Wolski@darrylwolski
> Rapid City and Allen will play in the CHL....court decision was made on Friday chl




Court? Had no idea they were in court. So the CHL lives!


----------



## JB51Hockey

BK Triple Threat said:


> Saw this posted in a Facebook Group:
> 
> Darryl Wolski@darrylwolski
> Rapid City and Allen will play in the CHL....court decision was made on Friday chl




Great. Was hoping some western teams could be added for next season. Guess not. Anyone know if it was the CHL who did not want them to leave or if it was the ECHL not wanting them? I don't think it would be the latter.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

BK Triple Threat said:


> Saw this posted in a Facebook Group:
> 
> 
> 
> Court? Had no idea they were in court. So the CHL lives!




The Rapid City newspaper nor any other source has any verification of this (Allen and Rapid City remaining in CHL because of a legal action).

Color me unconvinced. The ECHL schedule is due out in a few weeks. We'll know then.


----------



## SemireliableSource

jeben51 said:


> Great. Was hoping some western teams could be added for next season. Guess not. Anyone know if it was the CHL who did not want them to leave or if it was the ECHL not wanting them? I don't think it would be the latter.




The ECHL would welcome them. They have agreements with the CHL and depending who you ask and when you ask, you'll get different answers about the agreements of both teams. Some saying RC didn't sign a standard 10-year deal, only 5-year. Some saying RC was promised a team closer to them and tried to leave when that fell through (Casper, WY). Some saying that Allen's deal has an out clause if there are no other Texas teams.

FWIW, Wolski tweeted out Saturday night that Fort Worth would be folding.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Cyclones Rock said:


> The Rapid City newspaper nor any other source has any verification of this (Allen and Rapid City remaining in CHL because of a legal action).
> 
> Color me unconvinced. The ECHL schedule is due out in a few weeks. We'll know then.




As I have found out here the last year the media having verification doesn't mean much because they are the last to get the necessary info. So the info could already be known to some, when the media gets said info is a different story. 

FTR I don't know who Wolski is to be honest, just passed that along.


----------



## Gibbie42

From all that I've heard, the ECHL was expecting both RC and Allen and the schedule had been made to include them (from multiple team personnel on multiple teams). Hell the Colorado coach even made comments about fans renewing close rivalries this coming season. Both RC and Allen have multiple years left on their CHL contracts so apparently the CHL took them to court to enforce them. I've been looking for court records but haven't found any yet. If this is the case I'm genuinely not surprised, because this was the threat that kept them at bay last year. I'm guessing they thought they had a way out this go around.

Darryl Wolski is a hockey agent.


----------



## JungleJON

From what I read on Wikipedia about him (the agent) don't know if I would believe him completely. Still have a "wait and see" attitude.
Though I have been trying to get on CHLfourms for the past half hour and I keep getting "access denied" Error 403.
Going to try later as they seem to have a little more insight on what is going on.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Never would have thought Allen, talk about being on an island...


----------



## Cyclones Rock

Allen has season tickets up for a 34 game home package.

Rapid City still has yet to put up anything. Its page still is selling 2012-13 season tickets.

The "tweet" says that a legal action occurred. Perhaps it was an injunction and that injunction is being challenged.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Cyclones Rock said:


> Allen has season tickets up for a 34 game home package.
> 
> Rapid City still has yet to put up anything. It's page still is selling 2012-13 season tickets.
> 
> The "tweet" says that a legal action occurred. Perhaps it was an injunction and that injunction is being challenged.




That would likely signify the CHL season and a preseason home game? Did the CHL season expand in length?


----------



## LadyStanley

http://centralhockeyleague.com/news/?article_id=9794

CHL changes for 2013-14.



> The Central Hockey League (CHL) announced today that there will be several franchise changes heading into the 2013- 14 season with the addition of the Brampton Beast and St. Charles Chill, while the Bloomington Blaze and Fort Worth Brahmas will not play in the upcoming season.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

The CHL should merge with ECHL it perfectly complete the geography the map plus it would be smart instead of hanging on a dying league. 

I would also like to see johnstown PA and Trenton with a echl team bring Reading our rivalry back


----------



## jabberoski

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> The CHL should merge with ECHL it perfectly complete the geography the map plus it would be smart instead of hanging on a dying league.
> 
> I would also like to see johnstown PA and Trenton with a echl team bring Reading our rivalry back




There will never be an outright merger between the two leagues.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

The Bloomington Blaze, formerly known as the Bloomington Prairie Thunder, are apparently becoming the Bloomington Thunder next year.

Next year, they'll be the Bloomington Prairie Blaze, I'm sure.


----------



## mk80

The CHL was apparently threatening a lawsuit so Bloomington just opted to go with this "new" name and identity than battle the CHL in court.

Also while this is more for the Affiliation topic: Toronto has affiliated with the Orlando Solar Bears in the ECHL. They didn't choose to just affiliate with the new Brampton CHL franchise.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

Im wondering what the echl future plan are as to expanding

I was thinking they will look at the north western states next


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> Im wondering what the echl future plan are as to expanding
> 
> I was thinking they will look at the north western states next




They're currently locked in at a max 26 teams per a BoG bylaw that was passed a few years ago, but I've got a feeling that that's mostly to just self-contain themselves in order to eventually pick up a few choice franchises from the CHL when they finally become 30-30-30 with the NHL and AHL above. They've already said that they want to expand more out west, so it's probably a good bet that they'll be looking more in the northwest, especially if the NHL expands into Seattle and/or Portland in the near immediate future, to get closer to 26.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

No Fun Shogun said:


> They're currently locked in at a max 26 teams per a BoG bylaw that was passed a few years ago, but I've got a feeling that that's mostly to just self-contain themselves in order to eventually pick up a few choice franchises from the CHL when they finally become 30-30-30 with the NHL and AHL above. They've already said that they want to expand more out west, so it's probably a good bet that they'll be looking more in the northwest, especially if the NHL expands into Seattle and/or Portland in the near immediate future, to get closer to 26.




i have heard from a friend of mine thats works as a ref in the echl he was saying he was hearing that the echl was looking at washington state and nebraska . He also said that they were looking at placing antoher team in the east around PA, NJ and del


----------



## mk80

ECHL commissioner mentioned in some past interviews that Peoria and Indianapolis are on the table for 2014-15. 

If I had to guess they are holding on expansion until they can pick up the remaining strong franchises in the CHL and add them to the western conference. I also think they might look at strenghthening the Atlantic Division possibly adding a place like Glens Falls when the Phantoms leave for Allentown.


----------



## Prussian_Blue

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> i have heard from a friend of mine thats works as a ref in the echl he was saying he was hearing that the echl was looking at washington state and nebraska . He also said that they were looking at placing antoher team in the east around PA, NJ and del




The only viable market in Washington state that doesn't already have a well-established and popular club is Tacoma. The ECHL _might_ work there, but major junior failed there once before already, so it's dicey.


----------



## LadyStanley

Prussian_Blue said:


> The only viable market in Washington state that doesn't already have a well-established and popular club is Tacoma. The ECHL _might_ work there, but major junior failed there once before already, so it's dicey.




Tacoma is how many hours (by bus) from Boise? Might be an interesting combo.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

LadyStanley said:


> Tacoma is how many hours (by bus) from Boise? Might be an interesting combo.




im just eager to see what happens the next few years could be exciting . i also heard that someone put a bid in for echl franchise around central PA


----------



## LadyStanley

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> i also heard that someone put a bid in for echl franchise around central PA




How close to Reading?


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

LadyStanley said:


> How close to Reading?




They were talking harrisburg or the the old Hershey arena maybe even out near gettysburg like 40 miles from reading . I hope it doesnt happen thoe i dont think reading can handle another team in that area we only averaged like 3500 per game last season


----------



## PCSPounder

Prussian_Blue said:


> The only viable market in Washington state that doesn't already have a well-established and popular club is Tacoma. The ECHL _might_ work there, but major junior failed there once before already, so it's dicey.




So did the WCHL. Having Boise "nearby" didn't help a lick (9 hours, some dodgy winter weather).

The Tacoma Dome should never again be mentioned in discussions such as this until they talk about downscaling and retrofitting the arena. Furthermore, they'd make that conclusion if they weren't primarily in the concert and HS championship businesses (for basketball AND football). How that plays out long term, eh?

What the ECHL really wants to do is see the WHL mucked up in the Pacific Northwest so they can pluck Spokane and maybe Everett... and if that leads to Portland, fine. I think we're too many years away from that happening to be reserving expansion slots for the PNW.


----------



## JB51Hockey

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> They were talking harrisburg or the the old Hershey arena maybe even out near gettysburg like 40 miles from reading . I hope it doesnt happen thoe i dont think reading can handle another team in that area we only averaged like 3500 per game last season




I go to Reading probably a dozen times every year, didn't miss a playoff game this past year. No way a professional team could play at the old Hersheypark Arena. Ice is terrible, boards are rough. To get to the locker rooms you have to walk down 4 flights of stairs that air no more than 4 feet wide. I think a team near State College could work though including Harrisburg. Would love to see Reading-Harrisburg rivalry. I don't think there are many fans that this Harrisburg franchise would be stealing from Reading. Let's see how this pans out.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

jeben51 said:


> I go to Reading probably a dozen times every year, didn't miss a playoff game this past year. No way a professional team could play at the old Hersheypark Arena. Ice is terrible, boards are rough. To get to the locker rooms you have to walk down 4 flights of stairs that air no more than 4 feet wide. I think a team near State College could work though including Harrisburg. Would love to see Reading-Harrisburg rivalry. I don't think there are many fans that this Harrisburg franchise would be stealing from Reading. Let's see how this pans out.




glad to see you make the drive to reading My family has been season ticket holders there since day on ive had them my self for this would be my fourth season i have only missed three games in those seasons im as dedicated as they come. As for a harrisburg team i would bee worried about Reading losing their affilaite then the issue would be then with the phantoms moving to allentown Pa next year and the Royals will never align with Philly they migth have some problems


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

Could Baltimore support a lower level hockey team do they have a venue that size that could suport hockey


----------



## arlingtonway

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> glad to see you make the drive to reading My family has been season ticket holders there since day on ive had them my self for this would be my fourth season i have only missed three games in those seasons im as dedicated as they come. As for a harrisburg team i would bee worried about Reading losing their affilaite then the issue would be then with the phantoms moving to allentown Pa next year and the Royals will never align with Philly they migth have some problems






A story that went around after the Giant Center opened up said that HERCO was in discussion with the ECHL about placing a team in the old arena, not sure how true it is, or how far it went but I would have loved it.

Jeben - theres a back entrance to the arena that they use for the Zamboni and other deliveries that opens on the ice/locker room level that being said your right the barn would need more than a fresh coat of paint to be ready for pro game use.

as to Harrisburg sadly there isnt a venue in Harrisburg (with ice) big enough to hold an ECHL level team.


----------



## spitshockey81

Hershey is Harrisburgs team, the two aren't even 15 miles apart. I think throwing another team in the area is a bad idea.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

spitshockey81 said:


> Hershey is Harrisburgs team, the two aren't even 15 miles apart. I think throwing another team in the area is a bad idea.




Thats what i was thinking and if they do put a team there they would probably affiliate with the bears leaving reading out to dry


----------



## JB51Hockey

arlingtonway said:


> as to Harrisburg sadly there isnt a venue in Harrisburg (with ice) big enough to hold an ECHL level team.




They have the Pennsylvania Farm Show Complex & Expo Center which has had indoor football and soccer. This would be the place to put a hockey team in if it was ever going to happen.


----------



## arlingtonway

But neither Farm Show Arena has ice or the ability/desire to add it on a permanent basis.

Which is why i said there isnt a facility in Harrisburg _with ice_ big enough to hold an ECHL team


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

arlingtonway said:


> But neither Farm Show Arena has ice or the ability/desire to add it on a permanent basis.
> 
> Which is why i said there isnt a facility in Harrisburg _with ice_ big enough to hold an ECHL team




What about the gettysburg area is there another arena that way


----------



## arlingtonway

nope, just the occasional rec rink... any new team in central PA, (not playing out of Hershey Park Arena) would require a new venue to be built


----------



## JB51Hockey

Arenas in central PA would be Giant Center, Hersheypark Arena and Pegula Arena (Penn State) but I don't think a pro team would play in any of those besides Giant. A new arena would need to be built and I don't think someone would risk building a stadium for < 3,500 crowds.


----------



## mk80

I think Baltimore could use another chance at hockey, they have the 1st Mariner Arena which I think seats 11,000 for hockey which hosted a couple AHL teams. And there has been talk of building a new arena in the area or in the same place. But I think its a big enough place that an ECHL franchise could work


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

mk80 said:


> I think Baltimore could use another chance at hockey, they have the 1st Mariner Arena which I think seats 11,000 for hockey which hosted a couple AHL teams. And there has been talk of building a new arena in the area or in the same place. But I think its a big enough place that an ECHL franchise could work




i know baltimore has a arena football team were do they play would that be big enough for a echl team


----------



## mk80

The only arena I know of is the 1st Mariner Arena which I think seats 11,000 for hocke. It was home to a couple AHL teams in the past.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

I can understand if the AHL wanted to hold off on Baltimore until development happens on the rumored new arena actually moves forward, but considering how large of a market they are it is a tad surprising that the ECHL hasn't gone after them. Especially with so many NHL and AHL teams nearby that they could try to affiliate with to draw in some visiting fans interested in seeing prospects.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

No Fun Shogun said:


> I can understand if the AHL wanted to hold off on Baltimore until development happens on the rumored new arena actually moves forward, but considering how large of a market they are it is a tad surprising that the ECHL hasn't gone after them. Especially with so many NHL and AHL teams nearby that they could try to affiliate with to draw in some visiting fans interested in seeing prospects.




Very true if not a washington affiliate then maybe a philly would fit there


----------



## Prussian_Blue

No Fun Shogun said:


> I can understand if the AHL wanted to hold off on Baltimore until development happens on the rumored new arena actually moves forward, but considering how large of a market they are it is a tad surprising that the ECHL hasn't gone after them. Especially with so many NHL and AHL teams nearby that they could try to affiliate with to draw in some visiting fans interested in seeing prospects.




I would guess that, one, the number of times pro hockey has fallen flat in Baltimore has something to do with it, and two, there's no local investor or group interested in hockey.

I would agree that Baltimore _should_ be a great market for the ECHL, or even the AHL, but who knows...


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

Prussian_Blue said:


> I would guess that, one, the number of times pro hockey has fallen flat in Baltimore has something to do with it, and two, there's no local investor or group interested in hockey.
> 
> I would agree that Baltimore _should_ be a great market for the ECHL, or even the AHL, but who knows...




Very true but i think one of the biggest problems with a new team placement is the most common league problem of all witch is lack there of advertisement. I'm mean even last season reading had a huge decrease in attendance they only average about 3k a game witch isnt good when 2500 of those fans are season ticket holders


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Yeah, it's a shame, really. Think that the interest is there in Baltimore for minor league hockey but, much like Kansas City and the NHL, there isn't a viable owner in place.


----------



## mk80

Yes and ownership group is really the missing piece of the puzzle right now in Baltimore. I think an ECHL franchise would work well there serving a large market surrounded by many NHL franchises.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

How about putting a team in the upper nort east like vermont or Mass or do you think the ahl presance is to strong up there. Personaly i would like to see trenton come back with a better owner and front office staff


----------



## JungleJON

ECHL was looking at Burlington, VT a few years back but the plans fizzled out. Don't think they are looking much in the NE as it seems to be tied up with the AHL. But if you start to see a migration out West by some of the AHL teams, the ECHL might move in to those locations.
I don't see Wheeling or Elmira in the league much longer - maybe as Johnstown did drop down to Junior Hockey.


----------



## mk80

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> How about putting a team in the upper nort east like vermont or Mass or do you think the ahl presance is to strong up there. Personaly i would like to see trenton come back with a better owner and front office staff




I don't think Trenton will come back for a while... the Titans have left many unpaid debts, and have stiffed season ticket holders, arena payments, and numerous charities (even from events that happened early in the year).

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2013/08/trenton_titans_sign_removed_from_sun_bank_arena_more_groups_say_they_are_owed_money.html


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Not to mention that the northeast is already fairly crowded with the minor leagues and especially collegiate hockey as it is, so don't really think there's much room for expansion up there, especially in Massachusetts.

Also, is there another suitable arena in Vermont? Wasn't that the issue facing the FHL when they tried putting a team up there?


----------



## mk80

None that I know the ECHL would accept. I do think there a few good market for the ECHL although they missed their chance on one (For now)

Glens Falls once the Phantoms move to Allentown, and honestly I don't think Utica will have a long run in the AHL but I believe an ECHL version of the Utica Comets could do very well.


----------



## Cacciaguida

No Fun Shogun said:


> Yeah, it's a shame, really. Think that the interest is there in Baltimore for minor league hockey but, much like Kansas City and the NHL, there isn't a viable owner in place.




Hey, I never thought I'd see the day with professional hockey being played in San Francisco! 
Baltimore would be a great ECHL affiliate for the Capitals.

Speaking of Kansas City, why isn't there any minor league teams there? I have no idea why they're even in NHL discussion if they can't even support minor league team, or was it from something I'm not aware of? 
Why did the Blades even move, was it arena issues, a bad draw, something else?

Could the city be viable for the ECHL if they could find an owner? Or would they be better suited for the AHL? 

Even Las Vegas has a team and I feel they should stay far away from the NHL. Better suited for minor hockey 

I'm a firm believer that a city must show it can support minor/junior hockey before it can get granted professional hockey. Not top their league in attendance, but they must generate a profit.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

SenorChifles said:


> ECHL was looking at Burlington, VT a few years back but the plans fizzled out. Don't think they are looking much in the NE as it seems to be tied up with the AHL. But if you start to see a migration out West by some of the AHL teams, the ECHL might move in to those locations.
> I don't see Wheeling or Elmira in the league much longer - maybe as Johnstown did drop down to Junior Hockey.




If Elmira and Wheeling go, so does Reading.


----------



## Slowe

Cacciaguida said:


> Speaking of Kansas City, why isn't there any minor league teams there? I have no idea why they're even in NHL discussion if they can't even support minor league team, or was it from something I'm not aware of?
> Why did the Blades even move, was it arena issues, a bad draw, something else?
> 
> Could the city be viable for the ECHL if they could find an owner? Or would they be better suited for the AHL?




Kansas City does have minor league hockey. The Missouri Mavericks have been playing in the CHL since 2009. They play in the Independence Events Center which is in the town of Independence, a suburb of Kansas City. Capacity for the arena is 5,800 for hockey. HockeyDB has their average attendance at about 5,500 for the past three years. As for the ECHL, just look for one of the many threads suggesting the CHL should be absorbed into the ECHL.

If an NHL team were to land here it would be in the existing Sprint Center which holds 17,500 for hockey.



As a bonus, here's a little history on pro hockey teams in Kansas City per Wikipedia:

Prior to the Mavericks, the Kansas City Blades played in the IHL from 1990 - 2001 in the IHL. The owners (DeVos family) were struggling financially and wanted to move them to Tulsa. It never happened, and shortly after the IHL folded. Of course many surviving teams moved to the AHL. The DeVos family apparently owned the Missouri Mavericks, Grand Rapids Griffins, and Florida Solar Bears. Per AHL rules an owner can only have one team so they kept the Griffins and folded the other two. Attendance for the team was highest in 91-92 at 7,300. By 00-01 it averaged 5,200.

The Kansas City Outlaws played one season in 2004 - 2005 in the UHL. They struggled to attract fans and folded after just the one year. Attendance averaged 2,700 fans.


----------



## mk80

The Mavericks have never been owned by the Devos Family.

The Mavericks are technically the relocated Lubbock Cotton Kings franchise however they didn't retain the history and were counted as an expansion team. The owners of the Cotton Kings own the Mavericks.

The Mavericks do very weel in the area with many sellouts and great fan support. The Mavericks will be in the ECHL one day but after the CHL goes under once and for all, will they make the jump along with the strronger CHL core.


----------



## HisIceness

Still waiting on the Columbia Inferno to return. 

Also waiting on the Myrtle Beach Thunderboltz to finally become a reality.

Unfortunately neither of these have much of a chance of happening.


----------



## sctvman

Yeah. Columbia would be a great fit in the ECHL, but U. of South Carolina won't let anybody play in their arena. That's why Columbia doesn't have minor league baseball either. All they have is a summer league team, which is most likely leaving after this year.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

Cacciaguida said:


> Hey, I never thought I'd see the day with professional hockey being played in San Francisco!
> Baltimore would be a great ECHL affiliate for the Capitals.
> 
> Speaking of Kansas City, why isn't there any minor league teams there? I have no idea why they're even in NHL discussion if they can't even support minor league team, or was it from something I'm not aware of?
> Why did the Blades even move, was it arena issues, a bad draw, something else?
> 
> Could the city be viable for the ECHL if they could find an owner? Or would they be better suited for the AHL?
> 
> Even Las Vegas has a team and I feel they should stay far away from the NHL. Better suited for minor hockey
> 
> I'm a firm believer that a city must show it can support minor/junior hockey before it can get granted professional hockey. Not top their league in attendance, but they must generate a profit.





look at Reading they never had any hockey history at all and have at least made a majority profit


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

HisIceness said:


> Still waiting on the Columbia Inferno to return.
> 
> Also waiting on the Myrtle Beach Thunderboltz to finally become a reality.
> 
> Unfortunately neither of these have much of a chance of happening.




I have a friend that lives down that way he said Columbia bought land for a arena they broke ground in 2007 then stop building do to financial issues


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

SFTC Addict said:


> If Elmira and Wheeling go, so does Reading.




I don't think Reading will go even if Elmira and Wheeling flop. Reading has solid ownership in SMG (stadium managment group) witch is a billion dollar courp and BCCA (Berks county convention authority).Plus to start this season reading has sold 3500 season tickets already and have sold another 1500 weekend mini plans on top of that . The city of reading love and support their team.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> I don't think Reading will go even if Elmira and Wheeling flop. Reading has solid ownership in SMG (stadium managment group) witch is a billion dollar courp and BCCA (Berks county convention authority).Plus to start this season reading has sold 3500 season tickets already and have sold another 1500 weekend mini plans on top of that . The city of reading love and support their team.




It won't work long term. I saw Elmira try to do this in the UHL with the closest team being in Michigan. Similar to what it would be with the Ohio teams and FT Wayne. The travel will become a *****. Travel expenses will become an issue long term. I can't say SMG would give a **** because Reading isn't the only place they are involved. Pretty sure Johnstown had SMG around at one point. I know Afr had them in here like 6 or 7 years ago. 

The only reason their season tickets are at that high a number is because they won. If they have a crappy year I would bet just on the basics of sports that the number goes down a fair amount. Then theres the Lehigh Valley Phantoms coming in 2014. Hell, during this past season all I could see on places of banter was Reading fans blasting Courville saying he's gotta go. I do think he is overrated and the biggest reason they won was the lockout. It gave them access to guys they likely elsewise wouldn't have had or at the very least long enough to get playoff eligible. It didn't hurt that their higher ups CHOKED in the 1st rounds of the playoffs. The Jackals offseason issues hurt them but they were still pretty competitive. I think if they were in a stable position like this summer them and Reading would have really gone more toe to toe. But we went all summer not knowing I we would play. No coach in Mid September. The coaches in places like Elmira and Reading have it somewhat easy. They get an influx of talent because of location and the send downs from AHL. The hardest part is when the rosters get depleted around December and January. But they usually get off to decent starts to offset that stretch. I would say they get the best talent in the league because theres so many AHL teams within these parts and they are the closest E teams around. Guys know that and take advantage of the fact they will likely get a callup. I like the talent and all but I hate musical chairs roster.


Based on what I've heard our new owners have way more cash than Afr allegedly did. Season Ticket sales are going up. Last year was REALLY bad. But I couldn't blame people. There was no guarantee they would even play. They literally found out like the Monday of the season's beginning week. There was no guarantee's they would finish the season once it started. Broken ice plant and all. It really helps that the owners that own the arena own the team(samething as under Afr actually) They really are building the joint up. Putting in a new restaurant and a micro-brewery. Under Afr the team and arena were 2 separate entities. Last year to make his payments he had to borrow from the Jackals entity. So it was the arena in poor financial shape, not the team. The team was profitable because they played in an arena the owner owned and obviously because he didn't pay his vendors and bills, etc. So it was a bit of a false lie. But at the sametime...the arena was only utilized like 45-50 nights a year. Mostly hockey and HS Graduations. Now theres a comedy club every week once a night, they did some movies in the summer, a beer tasting next month, Travis Tritt is coming in(haven't had a concert there in forever) Now with the brewery and restaurant being open everyday they plan on getting some action everyday which can only help. I don't know how the team will do financially but they are playing rent free and that doesn't hurt and they will get concessions and all that. If they can get the people back they do have a gold mine setup here to make it actually work long term. It all hinges on the community response at this point in attendance and daily traffic. I think like Reading they have a long term chance now. It looked bleak for both for awhile. I think if I recall hearing right before the local entity bought half of your team an outsider was looking at them for like Baltimore in a proposed new arena deal. 

Wheeling i'm not optimistic about at all. Attendance was horrible long before the Brook's bros decided to sell.


----------



## HisIceness

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> I have a friend that lives down that way he said Columbia bought land for a arena they broke ground in 2007 then stop building do to financial issues




I drove by the area that (I'm pretty sure) is supposed to be the arena site about 3 years ago and I remember it still being grass. I highly doubt much has changed. 

The Inferno were supposed to move to the Colonial Life Center after I think 07-08 but as sctvman pointed out the powers that be at USC didn't want that. So after ruling out an arena site near the airport, plans shifted to the current site and then they just stopped.

I understand that USC athletics are big in Columbia but there's no reason for them to run professional teams out of town like they've done with the Inferno and the numerous baseball teams the city has had.


----------



## JB51Hockey

Reading was the best in the East, maybe they wouldn't have won it all if they played Alaska. Still a top 2 team.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

jeben51 said:


> Reading was the best in the East, maybe they wouldn't have won it all if they played Alaska. Still a top 2 team.




i agree its not the fact of Reading an the vasinity of AHL teams that makes them a good team its the coaching staff. It it was for vasinity reading would have had a good team every year for example the 2011 2012 season Courville had to dismantle the roster to even make a attempt at the playoffs which some what work they made it in by the skin of their teeth . then lost to Elmira in the first round


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

Mrtyle Beach gave up their membership during the 2009 to 2010 season

http://www.echl.com/history


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

anyone hear of this i stumbled across this echl expansion in the DC area the Dulles Aviators 
http://www.rockthered.net/2011-articles/april/echl-expansion-to-target-booming-dc-market.html


----------



## No Fun Shogun

First I've heard of it, but considering that that article is from 2011, I'm doubting there's much truth to it now.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

SFTC Addict said:


> It won't work long term. I saw Elmira try to do this in the UHL with the closest team being in Michigan. Similar to what it would be with the Ohio teams and FT Wayne. The travel will become a *****. Travel expenses will become an issue long term. I can't say SMG would give a **** because Reading isn't the only place they are involved. Pretty sure Johnstown had SMG around at one point. I know Afr had them in here like 6 or 7 years ago.
> 
> The only reason their season tickets are at that high a number is because they won. If they have a crappy year I would bet just on the basics of sports that the number goes down a fair amount. Then theres the Lehigh Valley Phantoms coming in 2014. Hell, during this past season all I could see on places of banter was Reading fans blasting Courville saying he's gotta go. I do think he is overrated and the biggest reason they won was the lockout. It gave them access to guys they likely elsewise wouldn't have had or at the very least long enough to get playoff eligible. It didn't hurt that their higher ups CHOKED in the 1st rounds of the playoffs. The Jackals offseason issues hurt them but they were still pretty competitive. I think if they were in a stable position like this summer them and Reading would have really gone more toe to toe. But we went all summer not knowing I we would play. No coach in Mid September. The coaches in places like Elmira and Reading have it somewhat easy. They get an influx of talent because of location and the send downs from AHL. The hardest part is when the rosters get depleted around December and January. But they usually get off to decent starts to offset that stretch. I would say they get the best talent in the league because theres so many AHL teams within these parts and they are the closest E teams around. Guys know that and take advantage of the fact they will likely get a callup. I like the talent and all but I hate musical chairs roster.
> 
> 
> Based on what I've heard our new owners have way more cash than Afr allegedly did. Season Ticket sales are going up. Last year was REALLY bad. But I couldn't blame people. There was no guarantee they would even play. They literally found out like the Monday of the season's beginning week. There was no guarantee's they would finish the season once it started. Broken ice plant and all. It really helps that the owners that own the arena own the team(samething as under Afr actually) They really are building the joint up. Putting in a new restaurant and a micro-brewery. Under Afr the team and arena were 2 separate entities. Last year to make his payments he had to borrow from the Jackals entity. So it was the arena in poor financial shape, not the team. The team was profitable because they played in an arena the owner owned and obviously because he didn't pay his vendors and bills, etc. So it was a bit of a false lie. But at the sametime...the arena was only utilized like 45-50 nights a year. Mostly hockey and HS Graduations. Now theres a comedy club every week once a night, they did some movies in the summer, a beer tasting next month, Travis Tritt is coming in(haven't had a concert there in forever) Now with the brewery and restaurant being open everyday they plan on getting some action everyday which can only help. I don't know how the team will do financially but they are playing rent free and that doesn't hurt and they will get concessions and all that. If they can get the people back they do have a gold mine setup here to make it actually work long term. It all hinges on the community response at this point in attendance and daily traffic. I think like Reading they have a long term chance now. It looked bleak for both for awhile. I think if I recall hearing right before the local entity bought half of your team an outsider was looking at them for like Baltimore in a proposed new arena deal.
> 
> Wheeling i'm not optimistic about at all. Attendance was horrible long before the Brook's bros decided to sell.




I know what helps reading is the fact that SMG owns the building and majority of the team this rules out the vendors fees and other expenses . Actually now that i think about it Reading is lucky they still have a team the LA KINGS owned the team in the beging when ontario moved in LA cleaned house and moved the entire office and coaching staff to Ontario and put the team u for sale that when SMG stepped in and bought them saving the team . But the only problem i see for Reading is that they wont align with Comcast Spactacor wich rules any affilation with the Future Allentown Phantoms and the Flyers out.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

SFTC Addict said:


> It won't work long term. I saw Elmira try to do this in the UHL with the closest team being in Michigan. Similar to what it would be with the Ohio teams and FT Wayne. The travel will become a *****. Travel expenses will become an issue long term. I can't say SMG would give a **** because Reading isn't the only place they are involved. Pretty sure Johnstown had SMG around at one point. I know Afr had them in here like 6 or 7 years ago.
> 
> The only reason their season tickets are at that high a number is because they won. If they have a crappy year I would bet just on the basics of sports that the number goes down a fair amount. Then theres the Lehigh Valley Phantoms coming in 2014. Hell, during this past season all I could see on places of banter was Reading fans blasting Courville saying he's gotta go. I do think he is overrated and the biggest reason they won was the lockout. It gave them access to guys they likely elsewise wouldn't have had or at the very least long enough to get playoff eligible. It didn't hurt that their higher ups CHOKED in the 1st rounds of the playoffs. The Jackals offseason issues hurt them but they were still pretty competitive. I think if they were in a stable position like this summer them and Reading would have really gone more toe to toe. But we went all summer not knowing I we would play. No coach in Mid September. The coaches in places like Elmira and Reading have it somewhat easy. They get an influx of talent because of location and the send downs from AHL. The hardest part is when the rosters get depleted around December and January. But they usually get off to decent starts to offset that stretch. I would say they get the best talent in the league because theres so many AHL teams within these parts and they are the closest E teams around. Guys know that and take advantage of the fact they will likely get a callup. I like the talent and all but I hate musical chairs roster.
> 
> 
> Based on what I've heard our new owners have way more cash than Afr allegedly did. Season Ticket sales are going up. Last year was REALLY bad. But I couldn't blame people. There was no guarantee they would even play. They literally found out like the Monday of the season's beginning week. There was no guarantee's they would finish the season once it started. Broken ice plant and all. It really helps that the owners that own the arena own the team(samething as under Afr actually) They really are building the joint up. Putting in a new restaurant and a micro-brewery. Under Afr the team and arena were 2 separate entities. Last year to make his payments he had to borrow from the Jackals entity. So it was the arena in poor financial shape, not the team. The team was profitable because they played in an arena the owner owned and obviously because he didn't pay his vendors and bills, etc. So it was a bit of a false lie. But at the sametime...the arena was only utilized like 45-50 nights a year. Mostly hockey and HS Graduations. Now theres a comedy club every week once a night, they did some movies in the summer, a beer tasting next month, Travis Tritt is coming in(haven't had a concert there in forever) Now with the brewery and restaurant being open everyday they plan on getting some action everyday which can only help. I don't know how the team will do financially but they are playing rent free and that doesn't hurt and they will get concessions and all that. If they can get the people back they do have a gold mine setup here to make it actually work long term. It all hinges on the community response at this point in attendance and daily traffic. I think like Reading they have a long term chance now. It looked bleak for both for awhile. I think if I recall hearing right before the local entity bought half of your team an outsider was looking at them for like Baltimore in a proposed new arena deal.
> 
> Wheeling i'm not optimistic about at all. Attendance was horrible long before the Brook's bros decided to sell.




Plus the hole thing with johnstown wasnt much of a financial thing as it was greed i heard from a johnstown booster club member that greenville offered double of what the team was wearth to move there


----------



## adsfan

mk80 said:


> *The Mavericks have never been owned by the Devos Family.*
> 
> The Mavericks are technically the relocated Lubbock Cotton Kings franchise however they didn't retain the history and were counted as an expansion team. The owners of the Cotton Kings own the Mavericks.
> 
> The Mavericks do very weel in the area with many sellouts and great fan support. The Mavericks will be in the ECHL one day but after the CHL goes under once and for all, will they make the jump along with the strronger CHL core.




They never played in the IHL either!


----------



## adsfan

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> How about putting a team in the upper nort east like vermont or Mass or do you think the ahl presance is to strong up there. Personaly i would like to see trenton come back with a better owner and front office staff




I have been to Vermont. They don't have much for population. Those two lane asphalt roads are hard to drive in the summer, let alone the winter. 

The 3rd largest city is Rutland. It has 17,000 people, a Pulitzer Prize winning newspaper, a Holiday Inn, a Ramada across the street, dumpy State Fairgrounds, with a Panera Bread with a drive-through window next door (I have never seen another one like that) a Public TV station, a few radio stations and an Amtrak station. 

Burlington is the largest city with 43,000 and a metro population of 200,000; one third of the state's people. They might support a hockey team. Ben and Jerry's started there and there is I-89 running by (but not through) the city, 45 miles south of Canada.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Burlington already has the Vermont Catamounts of the NCAA, so doubt that there's enough interest leftover for another hockey team.


----------



## Slowe

mk80 said:


> The Mavericks have never been owned by the Devos Family.






adsfan said:


> They never played in the IHL either!




Switched gears too much. I was talking about the Blades and stuck in Mavericks on accident.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> i agree its not the fact of Reading an the vasinity of AHL teams that makes them a good team its the coaching staff. It it was for vasinity reading would have had a good team every year for example the 2011 2012 season Courville had to dismantle the roster to even make a attempt at the playoffs which some what work they made it in by the skin of their teeth . then lost to Elmira in the first round




Weird how this league changes year to year. 2012 Elmira was the top seed, Reading clawed to get in, last year it flip flopped. 2011 Reading was a top team, 2010 Elmira was a top tean. It's weird when I think about it.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

SFTC Addict said:


> Weird how this league changes year to year. 2012 Elmira was the top seed, Reading clawed to get in, last year it flip flopped. 2011 Reading was a top team, 2010 Elmira was a top tean. It's weird when I think about it.




It all depends on affiliates and how much experiance the staff have finding talent


----------

