# FHL: Who will be the first to fold



## AHLFAN

With every team averaging below 1,000 fans per game. Who will be the first to fold?

Here are the averages per the FHL website:



LEAGUE ATTENDANCE

TEAM	YESTERDAY	TOTAL	Games	AVERAGE
Dayton 6,794 7 970
Port Huron 5,137 6 856
Danville 7,892 10 789
Danbury 4,965 7 709
Berlin 3,706 7 529
Brewster 1,485 7 212

TOTALS: 29,979 44 681


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## Cornuts

Dayton has already missed paying players and the player *exit* has started. No money for even food for some players.
Rumor has it that the team is either up for sale or folding. What a waste of a young players life. P.O.S owners. This is the worst league to waste your life away in. FHL should close down completely and do everyone a favor.
McDonalds pays better.


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## Cyclones Rock

I guess I'll have to head up to the game in Dayton tomorrow.

I actually enjoy going to Hara once or twice a year to watch the FHL.

Any source on missed payroll in Dayton?


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## Cornuts

Yea, Go speak to the owner. See what B.S he feeds you. Pathetic. 
This is low quality hockey and any OHL jr. team would embarrass any team in this league. 6 teams that cant sustain themselves tells it all.
Owners that tell players we are short this week and we will pay you next week then 4 weeks go by and no pay. Mean while the players are expected to pay for all their food on out of town trips with no more money to purchase a loaf of bread with. What a JOKE!
Things are pending


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## Cyclones Rock

Dayton hockey has been a disaster ever since the ECHL left. Sorry to hear that the players are being stiffed.

Any chance that the players won't play Thursday vs. Port Huron? Who is the owner?


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## dlocal

Why would anyone want to play for such a league?


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## Cyclones Rock

dlocal said:


> Why would anyone want to play for such a league?




If I were young and wanted to play pro hockey and it was my only option, I'd definitely give it a shot.


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## Sports Enthusiast

The league itself makes sense but they keep surviving. They are up to 6 teams now? Lol


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## Cornuts

Not sure why anyone would want to play there when some teams cant even pay their players. 
The quality of this hockey is far below what any real hockey person would call professional.


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## Wease

dlocal said:


> Why would anyone want to play for such a league?




I occasionally play with a guy that practices with the Dayton team and claims he's a "professional hockey player". He's played a grand total of three games in this league in the last three years and he's a decent "B" level adult league player. He's one of those guys that holds on to that dream of being a pro, so he's exactly the type of person that plays in this league...


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## Danbury102

So, whoever picked Dayton in this pool it appears you are the winners. They have canceled their game with Danbury this weekend and reportedly are done unless they can find a new investor.


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## CrazyEddie20

Danbury102 said:


> So, whoever picked Dayton in this pool it appears you are the winners. They have canceled their game with Danbury this weekend and reportedly are done unless they can find a new investor.




But the world NEEDS Class-A hockey!! 

This garbage league can't die soon enough.


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## Cornuts

The real sad thing is that there are young men holding onto a dream that has mostly past. This league knows it and its owners know this.
Not paying players is disgraceful and the pos people that run these organizations should be shut down for good.
Unpaid Players should file civil law suits against the owners of these teams.


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## Jackets Woodchuck

CrazyEddie20 said:


> But the world NEEDS Class-A hockey!!
> 
> This garbage league can't die soon enough.




This is why I hate using the baseball classification terminology for hockey. Calling the AHL "AAA" and ECHL "AA" makes no sense if there's no "A" and, unless you consider the SPHL "A", there seems to be no league at that level that can work.


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## mfrerkes

Cornuts said:


> Unpaid Players should file civil law suits against the owners of these teams.




Unfortunately, it takes money (and sometimes lawyers) to initiate legal proceedings against employers who stiff their employees. If you're a guy trying to scratch out a living working for the Dayton Demonz, my guess is you don't have much money to begin with.

And, if you did manage to prevail in the court system, collecting on your settlement would be akin to getting blood from a turnip. It's a sad situation, but it's a risk most hockey players at this level have to know they are taking.


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## Cyclones Rock

Dayon moving to rec rink. 

Maybe some $$ for the players? Good luck.


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## mfrerkes

There's a picture of their new "venue" on the team's Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/daytondemo/

It's embarrassing that a league like this is allowed to continue. Who the Hell is going to pay money to watch a so-called professional team play in a neighborhood rec rink?


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## GarbageGoal

mfrerkes said:


> There's a picture of their new "venue" on the team's Facebook page:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/daytondemo/
> 
> It's embarrassing that a league like this is allowed to continue. Who the Hell is going to pay money to watch a so-called professional team play in a neighborhood rec rink?




That's basically the type of arena most of the teams play in. That's pretty much the type of arena the Cape Cod team played on last year or two years ago.


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## royals119

GarbageGoal said:


> That's basically the type of arena most of the teams play in. That's pretty much the type of arena the Cape Cod team played on last year or two years ago.



Gotta love this comment on their facebook page: 


> Is this a joke? Were now officially the laughing stock of the FHL.



I think it takes more than moving to rec rink to achieve that. I have friends in Dayton who attend the games, and for their sake I hope the team makes it, but you have to be realistic about minor league hockey and what is financially feasible at the lower levels - both as owners and fans.


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## mfrerkes

royals119 said:


> ...but you have to be realistic about minor league hockey and what is financially feasible at the lower levels - both as owners and fans.




The miscalculations made by the Dayton Demolition are quite tragic for those fans who have handed over money to support the organization. Reading through the comments on Facebook, it seems the new venue has an inadequate seating capacity and lacks the necessary parking as well. For season ticket holders, this has to be a huge disappointment...especially for the fans who live in the northern part of Dayton. Their travel time is going to be much greater, and the accommodations will be much lesser.

It's not a good strategy for earning repeat business.


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## Cacciaguida

too bad dayton can't just go to the SPHL


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## Cyclones Rock

Dayton isn't scheduled to have another home game until January 21st after the Jan 1 game.

I doubt that they'll be around for the Jan. 21st game. The team is in dire straits financially and there's no revenue for 3 weeks. Paying rent, per diems, busses, hotels, equipment, medical and salaries for 3 weeks would seem to be too much to expect for a team with no revenue sources. I'd imagine that the team is on a C.O.D. basis by now with everyone who has done business with them.

I hope I'm wrong about this.


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## Clinton Comets EHL

Cyclones Rock said:


> Dayton isn't scheduled to have another home game until January 21st after the Jan 1 game.
> 
> I doubt that they'll be around for the Jan. 21st game. The team is in dire straits financially and there's no revenue for 3 weeks. Paying rent, per diems, busses, hotels, equipment, medical and salaries for 3 weeks would seem to be too much to expect for a team with no revenue sources. I'd imagine that the team is on a C.O.D. basis by now with everyone who has done business with them.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong about this.



I doubt you are.

Everything you said about 3 weeks without revenue is dooming.


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## Cyclones Rock

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/ne...-dayton-hockey-still-drawing-breath-if/npwBx/




> South Metro owner Nick Poe confirmed the game indeed will take place and that he hopes to help the Demolition finish the season.
> 
> *They might resemble nomads,* though, if Poe’s vision is adopted by New Jersey-based team owner William Dadds.
> 
> “Here’s the deal,” said Poe, a former Dayton Bombers equipment manager who bought South Metro in 2014. *“I can make it work, but not every game’s going to be in this building. I’m smart enough to know it can’t be in this building all the time.*




No home arena for all intents and purposes.



> Karen Wampler, the Hara marketing director, on Monday received a *cryptic text from Dadds. “I’m done,” the message read. “League is pushing me out.”*
> 
> The Demolition then announced on Facebook they were done with Hara, leaving hockey fans confused and the arena with 18 empty dates.
> 
> Wampler said the news came as a surprise because *the arena had been working to help the team meet its payroll *and stay afloat. This is the Demolition’s first season on the scene after the Dayton Demonz went adrift.




No owner and Hara was helping make the payroll. Combined with no real home arena and there is no hope for this team.

The Demoliton game which starts in about 5 minutes will probably be a wrap for Dayton professional hockey for a long time, perhaps forever. Too bad.


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## Falconone

*Filling in some blanks*

Been reading and to some degree following the various threads on this league. All in all it settles out to sounding a little harsh.

Let me be clear, I am not trying to explain or justify any of the act being criticized. Maybe just providing some context.

RE: Dayton. When the original team that played there last year was moved out by it's ownership, the owner(s) of the Berkshire Battalion team saw an opportunity to address a problem. To wit: an inability to schedule home games on a Friday night in Berkshire. Not throwing shade on either the rink management, the town of Berkshire or ownership. Moving to Danville was done (in part) to address that scheduling issue as well as improving facilities. However, the rink situation that they ended up with created a different and more critical problem. The rink ownership took the entire gate receipts and deducted their costs of ice and rink facility game day management and gave the remainder to the team. Often this was a hundred dollars or less. So instead of improving the financial situation, it made it worse. I have NO information as to the previous arrangements with last years team, nor info on attendance. 

Look, I understand that the Dayton ownership agreed to the lease terms, though I can see where moving from a virginal market like Berkshire to a (more) established market like Dayton, could have led to conclusions that ended up being unsupportable by the resultant actual events. 

But no matter what the case is, one can see that without game day revenues it becomes difficult for a team to pay it's bills. I suspect the move to the new facility is/was an attempt to address that situation.

Source for this info: League players

As for other teams, each situation is different, but the model established by last years league Champs, Watertown Wolves, would be a good place to start. It was widely reported that the ownership team consisted of local businessmen who formed a partnership to own the team. According to those reports, interested ownership prospects were advised not to expect to be profitable or even break even for at least several years. They were setting up a tax loss opportunity until the team could be established in the community. But according to different sources, even that ownership model was tested and there were some periods in which players were not paid on time. But it would seem to me that their 'model' made more sense for the long term.

Several new teams have new ownership groups this year. And several of the marketplaces have yet to embrace their local team. And yes, they may never. But when you look at the attendance numbers for these franchise locations there are several that have had a history of supporting local minor hockey. So those situations may well improve. What most likely necessary, is for the team management to make a concerted effort to cultivate relationships with local fan bases etc. to 'market' their product (the team) more effectively. This takes more than a few months. Maybe years.

As for criticism of players in the league, I would hope that those who make some of the comments I've read, would take a step back and take a deep breath. After all it's a GAME. Most of these players are there principally because they love the game. Some have higher ambitions, moving up to play in the higher minor pro ranks. Perhaps as a way of establishing a resume to move into coaching and teaching in the future. Witness the comments made by the new Brewster franchise coach, David Lun, made when he was hired.

So maybe the level of play is not the level of the old Danbury Trashers, but neither is the payroll on or off the books lol.

Look as someone mentioned, a lot of these kids are chasing a dream. One they are not ready to give up on just yet. As I heard one young player say, " there will be no better time in my life to do this. I have no real responsibilities right now. I don't want to look back and have the regret of not trying". 

I'm sure every player has their own reasons for what they are doing. One would hope that everyone could gain some perspective on this and be less judgmental.

Remember it's easy to be critical, it's much more difficult to be correct.

F1


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## Sniper45

Falconone said:


> Been reading and to some degree following the various threads on this league. All in all it settles out to sounding a little harsh.
> 
> Let me be clear, I am not trying to explain or justify any of the act being criticized. Maybe just providing some context.
> 
> RE: Dayton. When the original team that played there last year was moved out by it's ownership, the owner(s) of the Berkshire Battalion team saw an opportunity to address a problem. To wit: an inability to schedule home games on a Friday night in Berkshire. Not throwing shade on either the rink management, the town of Berkshire or ownership. Moving to Danville was done (in part) to address that scheduling issue as well as improving facilities. However, the rink situation that they ended up with created a different and more critical problem. The rink ownership took the entire gate receipts and deducted their costs of ice and rink facility game day management and gave the remainder to the team. Often this was a hundred dollars or less. So instead of improving the financial situation, it made it worse. I have NO information as to the previous arrangements with last years team, nor info on attendance.
> 
> Look, I understand that the Dayton ownership agreed to the lease terms, though I can see where moving from a virginal market like Berkshire to a (more) established market like Dayton, could have led to conclusions that ended up being unsupportable by the resultant actual events.
> 
> But no matter what the case is, one can see that without game day revenues it becomes difficult for a team to pay it's bills. I suspect the move to the new facility is/was an attempt to address that situation.
> 
> Source for this info: League players
> 
> As for other teams, each situation is different, but the model established by last years league Champs, Watertown Wolves, would be a good place to start. It was widely reported that the ownership team consisted of local businessmen who formed a partnership to own the team. According to those reports, interested ownership prospects were advised not to expect to be profitable or even break even for at least several years. They were setting up a tax loss opportunity until the team could be established in the community. But according to different sources, even that ownership model was tested and there were some periods in which players were not paid on time. But it would seem to me that their 'model' made more sense for the long term.
> 
> Several new teams have new ownership groups this year. And several of the marketplaces have yet to embrace their local team. And yes, they may never. But when you look at the attendance numbers for these franchise locations there are several that have had a history of supporting local minor hockey. So those situations may well improve. What most likely necessary, is for the team management to make a concerted effort to cultivate relationships with local fan bases etc. to 'market' their product (the team) more effectively. This takes more than a few months. Maybe years.
> 
> As for criticism of players in the league, I would hope that those who make some of the comments I've read, would take a step back and take a deep breath. After all it's a GAME. Most of these players are there principally because they love the game. Some have higher ambitions, moving up to play in the higher minor pro ranks. Perhaps as a way of establishing a resume to move into coaching and teaching in the future. Witness the comments made by the new Brewster franchise coach, David Lun, made when he was hired.
> 
> So maybe the level of play is not the level of the old Danbury Trashers, but neither is the payroll on or off the books lol.
> 
> Look as someone mentioned, a lot of these kids are chasing a dream. One they are not ready to give up on just yet. As I heard one young player say, " there will be no better time in my life to do this. I have no real responsibilities right now. I don't want to look back and have the regret of not trying".
> 
> I'm sure every player has their own reasons for what they are doing. One would hope that everyone could gain some perspective on this and be less judgmental.
> 
> Remember it's easy to be critical, it's much more difficult to be correct.
> 
> F1




Lots of good points, one big issue in this league is the league owner itself, Kirnan. He is a buffoon, this is the crappiest run league I have ever seen at any level. Absolute no vetting of potential team owners, this is a large reason why all these teams fail, yes attendance is low, but if you follow this league from the beginning, several teams never made it to play one game! and several folded after the first weekend. Watertown is a good example, local owners who shared in the financial burden, it really worked last year for them. Playing in a small venue also is the key, teams don't need a 5-10.000 seat arena to play in front of 600 fans!!

I hope Dayton gets their team to finish out the year, then reevaluate for next year


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## Francis10

Dayton now moving back to Hara arena for rest of year.


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## Francis10

Falconone, sounds like you got some inside knowledge on the FHL. What is life like in the FHL in the 2015-2016 season? What's the average salary per week? Meals and accommodations provided to players?


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## GFHL

and yet they keep playing, the league will never die. Maybe tip jars for the players?


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## Captain Crash

Word around the FHL 'fan' communities is that Dayton is going to fold this week. No word from the team or the league, but indeed all of their scheduled home games have disappeared from the league schedule and only road games remain.

http://fhl_stats.stats.pointstreak.com/teamschedule.html?teamid=569337&seasonid=14663

Welcome to circus, Ohio Federals.


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## Cyclones Rock

Dayton just came out with an announcement 15 minutes ago on their facebook page that said: "Dayton Demolition fans, the rumors of the team folding are false. A statement from the Dayton Demolition owner will be released soon. Thank you and go Dayton Demoltion". 

The PA announcer, who has been the long term voice of Dayton hockey, posted a scathing message which he later (evidently) deleted. Several long term volunteer off ice officials have been making critical statements as well. A player came out and said that 4 paychecks had been missed. The players supposedly rented two vans to go to Port Huron last weekend and there was a post that said that a sponsor of the team had purchased groceries for the players.

A (supposedly) recent employee of the team came out and said that the team has folded.

It appears that the franchise is in the ICU and that code blue has been called. It's probably for the best if the patient is not successfully resuscitated.

EDIT: Owner (William Dadds) just posted a message on the team's facebook page stating that the rumors are false and that the team remains at Hara, that there is new management and that "all home games are scheduled to be played as before".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LQftYK2n8o


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## Cyclones Rock

Dayton's home games are now back up on the Federal League site. All home games had disappeared off the schedule on that site right after all the rumors began.

I guess I'll be going up to the game at Hara on the 21st. I'm glad to see that the fans of Dayton have their team. It looked like it was curtains just a week ago. The demolition of The Demolition is indefinitely postponed


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## Captain Crash

The saga continues. 

The FHL has officially terminated Dayton's ownership agreement. As of now, the league is assuming operations of the team and apparently keeping them in Dayton. Their press release says that a new ownership group is expected to take over in the coming weeks.

Yikes.

http://www.federalhockey.com/view/thefederalhockeyleague/news-739/news_379493


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## Sports Enthusiast

Lol only in the FHL.


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## Jackets Woodchuck

If players are willing to play in a low-paying league in order to keep playing a few more years or try to make the ECHL, that's fine. If the owners are unable to pay them even those low salaries, that's not fine.

Therein lies the main distinction between the SPHL and the FHL.


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## ForsbergForever

Dayton now under the ownership of a group led by former Danville head coach Joe Pace...

https://twitter.com/DemolitionFHL?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

This league continues to amaze as it staggers from one season to the next, though it seems attendance at an all-time low league wide, that has to be a sign...


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## Sports Enthusiast

Lol where's a former coach get the capitol to own?


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## royals119

Sports Enthusiast said:


> Lol where's a former coach get the capitol to own?



Could be he just has a small stake, but is the public face of the ownership group. Or maybe he made some really good investments, or has had success in business after his hockey career.


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## Cyclones Rock

Sports Enthusiast said:


> Lol where's a former coach get the capitol to own?




I don't know about operating the team, but most people probably have enough cash in their wallet to buy one. Or at least enough room on their credit card


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## JDogindy

So, they suspend a team only to have them come back in the same season?

I'm sorry, but how can this beer league keep on surviving?


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## Cyclones Rock

JDogindy said:


> So, they suspend a team only to have them come back in the same season?
> 
> I'm sorry, but how can this beer league keep on surviving?




I really don't get it either.

There's no money to be made; only money to be lost. There is no prestige or public recognition for being an owner. There is no hope that the league will become part of something greater.

I guess it could be a money-laundering scam. Kidding. I think.


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## JackalsKnuckles

I believe the league needs to maintain 6 teams in order for non-American players to be eligible for work visas.

In the past they have gone with travel teams like the Federals and Blues. Not sure why they are propping up Dayton after all the bad press they got, but the owners need to keep 6 teams to keep the Canadian players.


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## Falconone

*Fhl 2015-15*



Francis10 said:


> Falconone, sounds like you got some inside knowledge on the FHL. What is life like in the FHL in the 2015-2016 season? What's the average salary per week? Meals and accommodations provided to players?




Francis 10. Don't profess to have insight to the entire league but i'll try to provide insight based on what I know from talking to a few players or their families,

The salary structure is limited by league rule. Somewhere in the area of $5000 a week. The top players may be paid $400-$500 but the others are closer to $200. The team provides housing and transportation to away games along with hotels and meals when on the road.

Probably a bit like living in the hockey house while in college. lol 

A typical week is Monday off, though some teams will have an optional skate. Practice on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday along with workouts after practice. Games on Friday, Saturday and sometimes Sunday.

Lastly, even with a contract, players only get paid IF they play in scheduled games over the weekend. So if they don't dress, they don't get a check. If they play in one game but don't dress for the other weekend game they get half of their week salary.

Players are responsible for their own meals when not travelling. Sometimes boosters will cook meals for players and bring them to the house. They also often get freebies from local sponsors, like restaurants. 

Hope this helps.

F1


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## SemireliableSource

JDogindy said:


> So, they suspend a team only to have them come back in the same season?
> 
> I'm sorry, but how can this beer league keep on surviving?




Check the wording. They terminated the ownership of Dayton, not the operations. Still your typical FHL absurdity, though.


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## StrBender

I know someone who played 2 seasons in the FHL before heading over seas to play. He said he averaged $50 per game, and still had to wait to get paid. I noticed he got waived, so I asked him why. He said he broke a bone in his hand and would be out 4 weeks. I asked how can that be, and he said he did't ask. I think he was on his own with the follow up medical bills too. Once the bone healed he was activated off waivers. I would think it breaks some form of labor laws? I told him it could always be worse. It could be a pay to play league


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## Falconone

*Well..........*



StrBender said:


> I know someone who played 2 seasons in the FHL before heading over seas to play. He said he averaged $50 per game, and still had to wait to get paid. I noticed he got waived, so I asked him why. He said he broke a bone in his hand and would be out 4 weeks. I asked how can that be, and he said he did't ask. I think he was on his own with the follow up medical bills too. Once the bone healed he was activated off waivers. I would think it breaks some form of labor laws? I told him it could always be worse. It could be a pay to play league




Not sure when he played. But I heard last year there were owners who got into some financial difficulty and only kept paying the top 10 players. Everyone else signed for the money you referenced. As for injuries, if happens in a game they are supposed to be paid 80% while injured.

As for labor laws, one thing to consider is that these are contracts. Plus they are probably considered 'exempt' employees and not covered by the Fair Labor Standards act.

The teams are supposed to pay for medical coverage for injuries during a game but each team handles that differently.

F1


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## Cornuts

It would be a great service to all to have the US Government shut this league down permanently!
Most of the players in this league that are over 24 yrs old are really not very good. If they were, they would have left this garbage can along time ago.
The smarter bunch stop this madness and get on with life and a real career.

The pay in the Fhl is about equal to what a person could make including tips at a third world country all inclusive. Bacon money.

What is worse then the lack of quality players, is the extremely uneducated, mindless attempt of some individuals who think they are hockey coaches.. 

I have seen many Bantam and Midget level games that present more talent, hockey smarts, puck skills, skating ability and overall EFFORT.
Who knows what city this circus side show will show up next but for god sake... stay away from this embarrassment to the sport of Hockey boys. 
Its not worth the risk of serious injury alone.


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## iamjs

JDogindy said:


> So, they suspend a team only to have them come back in the same season?
> 
> I'm sorry, but how can this beer league keep on surviving?




Serious question: what is the highest league that a former FHL player has played?

I'm not talking about a Pierre Dagenais or a Billy Tibbetts, who played in the NHL and later ended up in the FHL. I mean a player who started in the FHL and worked his way up to a higher league.


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## royals119

iamjs said:


> Serious question: what is the highest league that a former FHL player has played?
> 
> I'm not talking about a Pierre Dagenais or a Billy Tibbetts, who played in the NHL and later ended up in the FHL. I mean a player who started in the FHL and worked his way up to a higher league.




I can't find a comprehensive list, but I went to HockeyDB and looked at the all time roster of the Danville Dashers (they have been around a few years, so it seemed like a good sample. They have used 150 players in their five year history). 

They have had players who also played in the SPHL, ECHL, CHL, LNAH, and one each in the Netherlands hockey league and Slolvak league (lower tier Europe). I would say there were maybe two guys who I would classify as "working their way up" - meaning they played at least a half season in the FHL, then played a season or two in the ECHL or CHL. Most of the players who also played in the ECHL or CHL were only there briefly (5 games or less) and then returned to the FHL. I don't think the SPHL, LNAH, or low level European leagues are really a move up. 

I was surprised at the number of eastern european born players they have used (11, out of 150 total). I would assume there is some other reason these players emigrated to the US, and they just played some hockey also. 

The majority of the players did not play top level junior hockey or Division 1 college. Mostly they were lower level junior players, Div 3 college, or didn't play anything above local rec league before the FHL, and most of the ones who did play college or juniors didn't play a full schedule (only 1-2 years, or only a few games per year, or played for three teams in the same year). Based on that, 99% of these players never had a chance at making even an ECHL roster as anything other than a temporary fill in.


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## Cyclones Rock

The league has gotten worse over the past few years.

The Cyclones got a player in 2012-13 from the FHL who did a great job. Jeff Winchester wasn't named to the playoff roster only because he wasn't an "affiliated" player. Winchester had played in the ECHL, CHL and SPHL prior to ending up in the FHL. 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=77549

I haven't seen a player of Winchester's caliber for-at least-the last few seasons when I've gone to games in Dayton. It doesn't appear that many former ECHL players are in the league anymore.

At this point, the FHL truly is a glorified beer league. I wouldn't be surprised if a D1 beer league team from Cincinnati which has a few exECHLers on it couldn't beat the Demolition handily. Dayton's team is absolutely awful this year. It isn't worthy to be called professional in any sense of the word.


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## GFHL

Believe it or not Hockey is popular and with the AHL moving teams the next thing you will see is ECHL teams in bad cities moving to AHL cities that lost their team. Then whats left, the FHL to fill in where former echl Hockey towns still want hockey. Hopefully the are smart enough to go junior hockey but surely more cities will give the FHL a chance. Maybe the headline should be changed to where will the FHL expand next. Who knows, but in the end more is better? right????


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## Cornuts

Falconone said:


> Francis 10. Don't profess to have insight to the entire league but i'll try to provide insight based on what I know from talking to a few players or their families,
> 
> The salary structure is limited by league rule. Somewhere in the area of $5000 a week. The top players may be paid $400-$500 but the others are closer to $200. The team provides housing and transportation to away games along with hotels and meals when on the road.
> 
> Probably a bit like living in the hockey house while in college. lol
> 
> A typical week is Monday off, though some teams will have an optional skate. Practice on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday along with workouts after practice. Games on Friday, Saturday and sometimes Sunday.
> 
> Lastly, even with a contract, players only get paid IF they play in scheduled games over the weekend. So if they don't dress, they don't get a check. If they play in one game but don't dress for the other weekend game they get half of their week salary.
> 
> Players are responsible for their own meals when not travelling. Sometimes boosters will cook meals for players and bring them to the house. They also often get freebies from local sponsors, like restaurants.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> F1




As for getting food paid for on the road. Dayton makes all their players look after their own food and even make them rent vans to get to away games. I heard recently that some local people in Dayton got together to buy some groceries for the guys that weren't getting paid and literally starving. They also had to purchase a new goalie stick for one of the goaltenders as the new management would not pay for it. There has also been broken skate blades and helmets that the players had to look after themselves...which would require them to spend almost a weeks pay to have a new skate blade purchased and installed. Boys.. Wake up and get a life and get a real job. Most teams in this league are very poorly run and extremely poorly coached. One positive of the FHL is, it is the basement.. and you cant get any lower.


----------



## Falconone

CN,

Not here to dispute your info. but I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that the Dayton situation is an example representative of all the team situations. As has been noted in the past the Dayton franchise ownership was struggling and there's a new ownership establishing it's presence and hopefully for both the players and fans that ship will be righted. My answer to a question was based on getting comments for player associated with several different teams. As for this being the lowest level of pro hockey, you are correct. As for team ownership needing to be better at marketing and funding a pro franchise, you are also correct. Many of not all of these players will someday realize that their future is past and move on. One of the Danbury players has been getting his masters degree online and I would expect he'll use that more than his hockey career.

Last years Danbury player David Lun is now coaching in Brewster and whatever happens there he can possibly use that as an experience to further a career in hockey some how. 

So you can see how some of these players can use this experience to improve themselves. What I don't understand is what comes across as vitriol in your posts. These are young men trying to do what all of us do. Enjoy life. If they choose to do it playing in this league, why are you so critical?

F1


----------



## PH Hockey Fan

I like your post- Falconone. I Know the FHL is low hanging fruit of the pro hockey world and is an easy target for ridicule, but some cities are making headway in this league. Here in Port Huron the team is gaining support. The corporate sponsorship is doing much better than the NAHL team we had before them. The people I have talked to that have come to a game for the first time, are really enjoying the hockey they see and are coming back. Is it the best hockey in the world- no, but the cities that have teams in the league, at least have hockey. Can the Berlin's and Brewster's survive with 250 to 400 fans? No. Can the league survive on 700 to 900?, probably not long term. I think the hope is grab two or three cities in the Midwest and Northeast that could give the league more viability. It's hard to say where this league goes, but at least us hockey fans have hockey this year.


----------



## GFHL

PH Hockey Fan said:


> I like your post- Falconone. I Know the FHL is low hanging fruit of the pro hockey world and is an easy target for ridicule, but some cities are making headway in this league. Here in Port Huron the team is gaining support. The corporate sponsorship is doing much better than the NAHL team we had before them. The people I have talked to that have come to a game for the first time, are really enjoying the hockey they see and are coming back. Is it the best hockey in the world- no, but the cities that have teams in the league, at least have hockey. Can the Berlin's and Brewster's survive with 250 to 400 fans? No. Can the league survive on 700 to 900?, probably not long term. I think the hope is grab two or three cities in the Midwest and Northeast that could give the league more viability. It's hard to say where this league goes, but at least us hockey fans have hockey this year.




I am with you PH, its fun to get behind your local team and FHL even with it's issues does give cities hockey that otherwise would not have any. Not that a am a longtime fan or anything but it seems like most games are more competitive this year, not as many 8-1 blowouts and recently it seems the lower 3 teams are getting better and have been beating the top 3.


----------



## Falconone

PH and GFHL,

The successful franchises in almost any league, any sport, at any level are those that have ownerships with sound business knowledge and expectations as to what is necessary to succeed. 

Witness the published reports of last years FHL championship team the Watertown Wolves ownership. They were very clear to prospective partners that they should expect to lose money for several years until the team could establish itself in the community. Even then I've heard it reported that there were some issues with the budget.

From what I can see there's not a lot of sports management experience in these ownership groups and as a result the understanding of what will be necessary to support the franchise both from a standpoint of cost and the business plan infrastructure in order to get the team established on a firm footing isn't very strong. Ergo the struggles we see being talked about here.

That said, your points about the relative interest in hockey in these communities are well taken. 

A few years ago I did some research into the various junior hockey leagues and what was required by USA Hockey for them to gain approval from USA Hockey's governing body. While I don't remember the specifics what was clear was that the requirement for a franchise to be approved was substantial for Tier I (read USHL) franchises vs. Tier II ( read NAHL) But if my memory is close and realizing that of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most, I think the requirements for Tier I status required an annual budget of close to 1 million dollars, a dedicated marketing plan including sufficient personnel resources to implement the marketing plan as well as 3000 seat facility. One which provided locker room and training facilities. All equipment needed to be provided for players by the team, along with billets and team insurance and meals while traveling. This was the basics as best I can recall. It was very extensive and required team ownership to substantiate assets sufficient to support those requirements.

Keep in mind that all that did NOT include paying players. 

I would be surprised to learn that any league below the AHL or perhaps the ECHL required that much of it's franchise owner prospects. That said, I have NO IDEA what financial requirements are expected of any prospective ownership group for any minor league in any sport. Let alone the FHL.

Most of the teams in this league right now have new ownership (in the case of Danbury and Brewster they are the same ownership) and this makes the 'getting off the ground' as much of a learning curve for these teams as any new team. though I believe spots like Port Huron and Berlin have long histories of supporting hockey and with careful management and some patience on behalf of both owners, local businesses and fans can lead to well ensconced teams and strong market support. Danville should do well as there's been a team there for a while. Dayton is a bit different as the previous team was moved to Port Huron and the initial ownership group this year (former Berkshire Battalion owners) misunderstood the marketplace and local costs of business. New owners may do better but that's to be seen. Berlin, as I said earlier has a history of supporting teams and was passed over for Berkshire last year so local businesses and fans may be a bit shy in throwing in their support after that.

Danbury, while taking the place of a well supported Whalers franchise has new owners and despite having a lot of the same infrastructure of personnel the old whalers team used will still need to rally around this new/old team. There's a few holdovers from last years team but there's also a fair amount of new players that need to find acceptance with fans who may be a bit shy having been burned by the old ownership group.

As for Brewster, they share more than ownership and support personnel with Danbury. They also share fans. they are very close in locations and there's probably a breakdown in fan and local business support. You might find Brewster only fans, Titan only fans but also fans that support both the Titans and Bulldogs. this may well lead to fewer fans for both teams in total. 

Good luck with support for the Prowlers !

F1


----------



## Cornuts

Falconone, I do not believe my posts are vitriolic at all. Maybe harsh. But I suppose more than anything is that life goes by very quickly. These young men are no doubt chasing a dream that has passed them by. My opinion is that these young men need to get on with their lives and try to make a better living for THEM SELVES and possibly even their families. If an owner wants to be in the pro hockey business then at the very least...Be professionals and treat your players like professionals and give them the tools they require to get the job done. If its too expensive of an operating cost to buy a few parts to keep your players on the ice...then some of the owners should get the hell out of the hockey business and go do something else. 
It also seems that much of todays generation are not ready to face the true realities of life. Making popcorn money(if you get paid at all) playing here well into your late 20's is not a very intelligent way to move forward. Just my opinion.


----------



## Jackets Woodchuck

Cornuts said:


> Falconone, I do not believe my posts are vitriolic at all. Maybe harsh. But I suppose more than anything is that life goes by very quickly. These young men are no doubt chasing a dream that has passed them by. My opinion is that these young men need to get on with their lives and try to make a better living for THEM SELVES and possibly even their families. If an owner wants to be in the pro hockey business then at the very least...Be professionals and treat your players like professionals and give them the tools they require to get the job done. If its too expensive of an operating cost to buy a few parts to keep your players on the ice...then some of the owners should get the hell out of the hockey business and go do something else.
> It also seems that much of todays generation are not ready to face the true realities of life. Making popcorn money(if you get paid at all) playing here well into your late 20's is not a very intelligent way to move forward. Just my opinion.




Do you think that there is any place for independent minor leagues or do you think players need to quit after the first time they wash out of the affiliated leagues (football being a little different obviously as there are no minor leagues and players can work day jobs between attempts to make a roster out of training camp)?

The FHL, in my opinion, has no place as they seem unable to pay the players, but I am okay with other low-paying independent leagues that actually do pay players (in hockey, the only such example being the SPHL). I am asking this because you seem to oppose the idea of independent leagues entirely.


----------



## Cornuts

Not at all. I cant comment on sphl or other leagues as I have no exposure to them in any capacity.
I am not opposed to independent leagues entirely. 
The FHL is the league I only refer to. But if you are a player in that league and are earning a decent salary , (Getting Paid), and also have a back up plan or carrier, then have at it.
I just hate see young men being mislead and or waste valuable years supporting this circus called the FHL. But then again... I suppose its their call.


----------



## GFHL

*fhl to ahl*

AHL Falcons have signed goaltender Alex Vazzano to a Professional Tryout Contract. Vazzano, 25, has registered a 1-1-2 record with a 3.37 GAA and a .902 SV% in five games with the Elmira Jackals this season of the ECHL. The 6-foot-2, 192-pound native of Trumbull, CT has also spent time this season with the Reading Royals of the ECHL, the Louisiana IceGators of the Southern Professional Hockey League and the Danbury Titans of the Federal Hockey League. Vazzano is a rookie out of Sacred Heart University.


----------



## sabremike

There are three things that will survive a nuclear war: cockroaches, TNA Wrestling and the FHL.


----------



## SemireliableSource

Not the first time FHL to AHL has happened. It's usually a goalie and it's a PTO because the AHL doesn't have a specific EBUG agreement set up.


----------



## royals119

GFHL said:


> AHL Falcons have signed goaltender Alex Vazzano to a Professional Tryout Contract. Vazzano, 25, has registered a 1-1-2 record with a 3.37 GAA and a .902 SV% in five games with the Elmira Jackals this season of the ECHL. The 6-foot-2, 192-pound native of Trumbull, CT has also spent time this season with the Reading Royals of the ECHL, the Louisiana IceGators of the Southern Professional Hockey League and the Danbury Titans of the Federal Hockey League. Vazzano is a rookie out of Sacred Heart University.






FrancoRussianAlaskan said:


> Not the first time FHL to AHL has happened. It's usually a goalie and it's a PTO because the AHL doesn't have a specific EBUG agreement set up.




Yeah, this is not a case of a guy playing well, and working his way up, and it doesn't legitimize the FHL as a feeder league for the upper levels. This is just teams getting in a bind for a goalie and needing someone to fill in on short notice.


----------



## JDogindy

sabremike said:


> There are three things that will survive a nuclear war: cockroaches, TNA Wrestling and the FHL.




I wholeheartedly support this statement given how much I've seen out of TNA Wrestling.


----------



## cynicalcitizen

Any idea why dozens of players and coaches are listed on indefinite suspension by the FHL today?


----------



## JDogindy

cynicalcitizen said:


> Any idea why dozens of players and coaches are listed on indefinite suspension by the FHL today?




Wait, what?

I'm not gonna let this go unsold. Where'd you hear this?


----------



## SemireliableSource

A quick look and theory, it might be guys that are gone. But I see one player who is in the SPHL that is suspended but not another on the same SPHL team.


----------



## 210

JDogindy said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> I'm not gonna let this go unsold. Where'd you hear this?




The FHL transactions list a ton of indefinite suspensions.


----------



## Woo Hockey

cynicalcitizen said:


> Any idea why dozens of players and coaches are listed on indefinite suspension by the FHL today?




https://www.facebook.com/TheFHL/posts_to_page/

"Unpaid fines is what one the players said kinda stupid they did everyone at once"

Only thing I can find on it.


----------



## GarbageGoal

Ha ha....don't get paid, now have to pay fines.

What a joke.


----------



## JDogindy

210 said:


> The FHL transactions list a ton of indefinite suspensions.




Finally saw it. Berlin & Port Huron's rosters took it to the gut.

I don't understand how this is possible. Fines?


----------



## cynicalcitizen

All on the same day? Must have been a big bill due down at FedEx Kinko's near the office.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

JDogindy said:


> Finally saw it. Berlin & Port Huron's rosters took it to the gut.
> 
> I don't understand how this is possible. Fines?




yes, and those players are required to, you've seen suspensions for failure to report on a reassignment. In this case, the League took that role. PH's issues directly relate to Wideman's indefinite suspension during the All Star Game, and the hearing was held 2/2.


----------



## Clinton Comets EHL

JDogindy said:


> Finally saw it. Berlin & Port Huron's rosters took it to the gut.
> 
> I don't understand how this is possible. Fines?




How are players supposed to pay fines making $210 a week? And maybe not even get paid that. LOL

I read about this on the FHL NEWS facebook page.


----------



## JDogindy

6768clintoncomets575 said:


> How are players supposed to pay fines making $210 a week? And maybe not even get paid that. LOL
> 
> I read about this on the FHL NEWS facebook page.




That's exactly what I was thinking about. These guys are starvers, and those fines aren't cheap. You might as well take away a month's pay.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Its obvious....they need Donald Trump! Maybe he's learned since the USFL.


----------



## Cornuts

Someone please put this league in the dirt and soon so others don't make the mistake of playing there. Im for the players, but this league needs to be demolished once and for all!
No heat in rooms. Not being paid. Not being fed. Having to get own transportation on out of town games..... I could go on but I see no more need to waste my breath.
Die FHL and do the country a big favor.


----------



## MullerBrotenVerbeek

What euro leagues would be on par with the FHL in skill lvl?


----------



## Cornuts

MullerBrotenVerbeek said:


> What euro leagues would be on par with the FHL in skill lvl?




Their is no skill in the FHL. So that's a redundant question.


----------



## MullerBrotenVerbeek

Cornuts said:


> Their is no skill in the FHL. So that's a redundant question.




Awesome, I was told I could get at least a 1-game tryout next season, so I'll fit right in!


----------



## ckg927

Sports Enthusiast said:


> Its obvious....they need Donald Trump! Maybe he's learned since the USFL.




Uh...have you heard any of his speeches over the past few months?

That's all I have to say about THAT!(Mostly because I don't want to bring politics onto a hockey board.)


----------



## Cyclones Rock

MullerBrotenVerbeek said:


> Awesome, I was told I could get at least a 1-game tryout next season, so I'll fit right in!





Awesome! Good luck.

While I don't get why or how the FHL stays around, I can tell you that if I were young and had a shot to play anything called pro hockey for even a day, then I'd do it in a heartbeat.


----------



## alko

MullerBrotenVerbeek said:


> What euro leagues would be on par with the FHL in skill lvl?




Something like Germany 3. league, or Slovakia 2. league.


----------



## SemireliableSource

There's no way the FHL is as good as the Oberliga. Far from it.


----------



## DonskoiDonscored

alko said:


> Something like Germany 3. league, or Slovakia 2. league.




Maybe Germany 4.


----------



## PH Hockey Fan

The Port Huron Prowlers are one win away from the championship of the FHL! The championship series is the best of 5 with the Prowlers taking the first two in Danbury. It has been a fun series so far. I know this league takes a lot of abuse, and some well deserved, but it is pretty entertaining hockey. 
I am in no way comparing this league or their hockey skill to the upper level pro hockey leagues, but they are giving the fans some things that "old school" hockey fans enjoy. The scoring is fun. Your team can be down 3 entering the 3rd period and your team is still in the game. The NHL keeps tinkering with things to get more scoring because they know that low scoring is a negative to a lot of fans. Scoring is fun and so are the fights that many games have. It may not have all the skill and speed of other pro leagues, but these players came from junior and college programs. If you think about it, some of these players still hold out hope of playing at the next level, but most are playing for the pure love of the game. Isn't that a pretty neat thing. Many of us fans would have loved to have had that opportunity. Aren't we all guilty of over analyzing this league? Anyway, thanks Prowlers and the FHL for giving us some fun this winter in Port Huron. If the boys win the Cup this weekend, we will be proud of all of them and our hockey fans will celebrate just like any other championship town would do. Go Prowlers!


----------



## CMUBrent

PH Hockey Fan said:


> The Port Huron Prowlers are one win away from the championship of the FHL! The championship series is the best of 5 with the Prowlers taking the first two in Danbury. It has been a fun series so far. I know this league takes a lot of abuse, and some well deserved, but it is pretty entertaining hockey.
> I am in no way comparing this league or their hockey skill to the upper level pro hockey leagues, but they are giving the fans some things that "old school" hockey fans enjoy. The scoring is fun. Your team can be down 3 entering the 3rd period and your team is still in the game. The NHL keeps tinkering with things to get more scoring because they know that low scoring is a negative to a lot of fans. Scoring is fun and so are the fights that many games have. It may not have all the skill and speed of other pro leagues, but these players came from junior and college programs. If you think about it, some of these players still hold out hope of playing at the next level, but most are playing for the pure love of the game. Isn't that a pretty neat thing. Many of us fans would have loved to have had that opportunity. Aren't we all guilty of over analyzing this league? Anyway, thanks Prowlers and the FHL for giving us some fun this winter in Port Huron. If the boys win the Cup this weekend, we will be proud of all of them and our hockey fans will celebrate just like any other championship town would do. Go Prowlers!




I was at last night's game. Entertaining game, and great to see the Prowlers clinch on home ice. It was also great to see a decent-sized crowd at McMorran again. Any time there's around 1800+ in that old barn, it gets LOUD in there. 

If you take the FHL for what it is (a generally unstable league that's the lowest level of minor pro) and factor in that Port Huron likely can't draw enough per game to keep a team in a higher-level league (IE: ECHL, OHL, USHL), it's not that bad. Definitely better than I was expecting, and better than what Lapeer had in 2010.


----------



## GFHL

So much for who will fold, maybe we need a new where will the FHL expand poll. 

Port Huron World Champs


----------



## Jackets Woodchuck

Re: FHL expansion: Do they require arenas to be able to make real ice or is synthetic ice acceptable?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_ice


----------



## Cyclones Rock

The FHL makes no sense from an economic or competitive standpoint.

I've attended games for the past 4 years in Dayton and the quality of the product gets worse. I'll bet if I went to the best beet league games in Cincinnati that I'd see more skill. Retired ECHLers and NCAA div I players are better in their mid 30s than the FHL "talent" more than likely. The quality in Dayton has been such garbage over the past 2 years that I've only attended 3 or 4 games in that span-just one this year.

Nobody goes to any of the games in any of the cities. Every team is guaranteed to lose money. No one is going to affiliate with these teams. There's no hope in their business model. That's been obvious for several years.

MOD


----------



## Jackets Woodchuck

From what amateur leagues are they getting guys worse than beer leaguers and retired ECHLers? Did they even play junior or college hockey?


----------



## Sidly

I'm still salty about the Williamsport fiasco. But I hear people talk about the MAHL days which is a good comparison, and they say the play wasn't great but it was sure fun. I wish my college town would get a team just for how much like Slap Shot it is.


----------



## PH Hockey Fan

The Port Huron Prowlers won the Commissioner's Cup in the Federal Hockey League and thanks again to Mike "Doc" Emrick for mentioning the championship win on his national hockey broadcast. Again, fun season and I hope for the same next year. St. Clair Shores Michigan is talked to be an expansion city next season for the FHL. The arena is about 45 miles from McMorran Arena in Port Huron.


----------



## PH Hockey Fan

Nice article in Pro Hockey News. http://prohockeynews.com/glory-days/


----------



## royals119

Jackets Woodchuck said:


> From what amateur leagues are they getting guys worse than beer leaguers and retired ECHLers? Did they even play junior or college hockey?




I looked at hockey db a while back to check that out. There were players with various backgrounds, but some had played only a couple games at a div 3 college, or part of a season of bantam's. Looked like they were literally signing guys from the local rec leagues. That wasn't every player, but there were lots of them.


----------



## Nightsquad

I am quite certain that those who post negatively about the FHL come from outside the FHL markets, likely most anyway. The FHL fills a void for hockey fans hailing from small cities or larger towns unable to operate higher levels of hockey, or having since been abandoned from higher levels of hockey or in population decline. The idea is great, what's not so great is stories of players and arena operators not getting paid. If the economics aren't working then don't launch a team or stop the bleeding quick before young men, team staffers, and local community business people get stiffed. It's too bad the FHL cannot operate a little more like the stable SPHL but I am sure it fills the desire of hockey fans who enjoy going to the games, sport the logos of a hometown team, and gives someone an opportunity to get some compensation to play a game they love. It's sad to see Danbury having been beaten down as a market. Danbury was the foundation of the league, and even Berkshire last season appeared to show potential.....The FHL has some fixing to do if it wants to shore up its future.


----------



## Jackets Woodchuck

royals119 said:


> I looked at hockey db a while back to check that out. There were players with various backgrounds, but some had played only a couple games at a div 3 college, or part of a season of bantam's. Looked like they were literally signing guys from the local rec leagues. That wasn't every player, but there were lots of them.




That's worse than i thought. I was thinking D3 or club college players. I figured it couldn't be CHL third or fourth liners or CJHL second or third liners who had used up their CIS eligibility or finished school as the quality of play would be much higher.


----------



## PH Hockey Fan

royals119 I looked up every player on the Prowlers roster this year. Every player had Junior hockey experience. Almost every player has muliple year Pro hockey experience at a higher level than the FHL.


----------



## 210

PH Hockey Fan said:


> royals119 I looked up every player on the Prowlers roster this year. Every player had Junior hockey experience. Almost every player has muliple year Pro hockey experience at a higher level than the FHL.




Can you point those players out to me?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0074412016.html


----------



## SemireliableSource

Keep in mind the Prowlers won the championship. They finished the regular season with 102 points (FHL used the three point system this year) with a record of 29 wins, 7 OT wins, 1 OT loss, and 18 regulation losses. Teams like Brewster and Berlin had just over half the amount of points Port Huron did and Port Huron actually finished the regular season in second place.


----------



## PH Hockey Fan

210 said:


> Can you point those players out to me?
> 
> http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0074412016.html




What are you looking at? You brought up the list of players, then all you have to do is click on each player. Every player on that roster has legitimate Junior/ Pro Hockey experience. You bring up some way out, left field comment and when someone shows you the facts you still can't accept it. These players may not be the top level players in pro hockey, but they all have some credentials. To say these players come from "beer leagues" is very unfair.


----------



## 210

PH Hockey Fan said:


> What are you looking at? You brought up the list of players, then all you have to do is click on each player. Every player on that roster has legitimate Junior/ Pro Hockey experience. You bring up some way out, left field comment and when someone shows you the facts you still can't accept it. These players may not be the top level players in pro hockey, but they all have some credentials. To say these players come from "beer leagues" is very unfair.




I never said anything about any of those players. You said "Almost every player has muliple [sic] year Pro hockey experience at a higher level than the FHL."

To make is easy for you to point out the "almost every player", I provided a roster. Can you please point out the players with "muliple [sic] year Pro hockey experience at a higher level than the FHL"?


----------



## Avsrule2022

By my count, 15 out of 41 players on that roster have more than 2 years at a higher level than FHL. And most of those guys had only 1 or 2 games of SPHL experience over their career. Maybe 5 guys on that roster that are actual SPHL material.


----------



## takehisheadoff

How can these teams afford to pay these players when not a single team draws more than 900 at the gate?


----------



## Artie Fufkin

takehisheadoff said:


> How can these teams afford to pay these players when not a single team draws more than 900 at the gate?




Simple. They can't.


----------



## Cyclones Rock

Artie Fufkin said:


> Simple. They can't.




And, often times, they just don't.


----------



## PH Hockey Fan

I looked at every Prowler player that played most of the season with the team. All of them had Junior and pro experience, with many having several years. The list on Hockeydb had players that I did not see all year. To say the players come from rec leagues or right from Bantam programs, is a complete fabrication. You guys are just looking for ways to ridicule the league. That's fine, I just think this league fills a void for some hockey markets. Can't you just let the league play out instead of always prognosticating it demise. There is talk that Traverse City is looking to put a team in the arena that the Red Wings hold their preseason camp in. So expansion is coming. Does this league have flaws- yes, but I plan to be an optimist rather than a constant pessimist.


----------



## PH Hockey Fan

I am also conceeding that this is the lowest pro hockey league. Since it is, don't you think that most of the players wouldn't have a lot of higher pro hockey experience. As an example, when you look at an ECHL, CHL or NHL player's stats, you will see that they have usually pro-gressed rather than re-gressed in their careers. So, of course, the FHL players would not have as much higher level play. These Players have other jobs in the off season to supplement their love of hockey.


----------



## 210

PH Hockey Fan said:


> I looked at every Prowler player that played most of the season with the team. All of them had Junior and pro experience, with many having several years. The list on Hockeydb had players that I did not see all year. To say the players come from rec leagues or right from Bantam programs, is a complete fabrication. You guys are just looking for ways to ridicule the league. That's fine, I just think this league fills a void for some hockey markets. Can't you just let the league play out instead of always prognosticating it demise. There is talk that Traverse City is looking to put a team in the arena that the Red Wings hold their preseason camp in. So expansion is coming. Does this league have flaws- yes, but I plan to be an optimist rather than a constant pessimist.




I have not ridiculed the league. All I did was ask you to please point out the players with "muliple [sic] year Pro hockey experience at a higher level than the FHL" and provided a link to a list of every player to appear with the team.

Can you not point those players out?


----------



## PH Hockey Fan

Callahan, Pietrasiak, Tatrn, McWinney, Skinner, Harris, Alonzo and Vanwynsberger all have had SPHL experience. 4 players have an OHL history and others have major junior experience while a couple have NAHL play. Look for yourself. Four players were called up to the SPHL this season. Is their a Gretzky or Yzerman on this list -no, but they do play hard and have respectable hockey experience.


----------



## PH Hockey Fan

I forgot to add Joe Pace and Chris Levielle for the SPHL experience. I think that makes 10 players.


----------



## 210

The SPHL might be better run, but it's not a higher league than the FHL. Do you know what people in the hockey world call guys that play in the SPHL and FHL more than one season?

They call them "delusional".


----------



## Cyclones Rock

210 said:


> *The SPHL might be better run, but it's not a higher league than the FHL.* Do you know what people in the hockey world call guys that play in the SPHL and FHL more than one season?
> 
> *They call them "delusional"*.




Tell that to Scott Darling.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=105384

The FHL isn't a feeder league in any sense of the word anymore. A few years ago, players could actually come up to the ECHL and contribute. A guy named Jeff Winchester played for the Cincinnati Cyclones a few years back and was actually one of their better defensemen.

The SPHL is at a much higher level than the FHL is now. But, that doesn't mean much given how abysmal the level of play in the FHL is. An SPHL player can move to the ECHL. There's probably not a player in the entire FHL last season who will ever play a full ECHL season. There will be many from last season's SPHL who do.


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## royals119

Cyclones Rock said:


> Tell that to Scott Darling.
> 
> http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=105384
> 
> The FHL isn't a feeder league in any sense of the word anymore. A few years ago, players could actually come up to the ECHL and contribute. A guy named Jeff Winchester played for the Cincinnati Cyclones a few years back and was actually one of their better defensemen.
> 
> The SPHL is at a much higher level than the FHL is now. But, that doesn't mean much given how abysmal the level of play in the FHL is. An SPHL player can move to the ECHL. There's probably not a player in the entire FHL last season who will ever play a full ECHL season. There will be many from last season's SPHL who do.




Darling was admittedly battling alcohol issues during his time in the SPHL. He was always skilled enough to play at a higher level, he was just partying too much and not hitting the gym or taking hockey seriously. That isn't the case with most guys at that level.


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## jason2020

Cyclones Rock said:


> Tell that to Scott Darling.
> 
> http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=105384
> 
> The FHL isn't a feeder league in any sense of the word anymore. A few years ago, players could actually come up to the ECHL and contribute. A guy named Jeff Winchester played for the Cincinnati Cyclones a few years back and was actually one of their better defensemen.
> 
> The SPHL is at a much higher level than the FHL is now. But, that doesn't mean much given how abysmal the level of play in the FHL is. An SPHL player can move to the ECHL. There's probably not a player in the entire FHL last season who will ever play a full ECHL season. There will be many from last season's SPHL who do.




I think the issue the Fhl has its in the hockey meca no the north east people expect a very high standard in the south east fans don't hold that same standard.


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## 210

Cyclones Rock said:


> Tell that to Scott Darling.
> 
> http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=105384
> 
> The FHL isn't a feeder league in any sense of the word anymore. A few years ago, players could actually come up to the ECHL and contribute. A guy named Jeff Winchester played for the Cincinnati Cyclones a few years back and was actually one of their better defensemen.
> 
> The SPHL is at a much higher level than the FHL is now. But, that doesn't mean much given how abysmal the level of play in the FHL is. An SPHL player can move to the ECHL. There's probably not a player in the entire FHL last season who will ever play a full ECHL season. There will be many from last season's SPHL who do.




Congratulations on naming one guy out all the guys that have played in the SPHL/FHL. Is there another couple?

And not knowing who Jeff Winchester was, I looked him up. You failed to mention he played in the ECHL and CHL (and in Europe) before playing in the SPHL and FHL.


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## DaveG

jason2020 said:


> I think the issue the Fhl has its in the hockey meca no the north east people expect a very high standard in the south east fans don't hold that same standard.




Clarify please


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## ForsbergForever

Cyclones Rock said:


> There's probably not a player in the entire FHL last season who will ever play a full ECHL season. There will be many from last season's SPHL who do.




Justin MacDonald was called up by Evansville late last season (while still finishing as the FHL's leading scorer) and played the whole season in the ECHL this year. 

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=128082


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## royals119

PHhockey fan said:


> see post from yesterday at 9:58




You said these guys played most of the year for PH, and have significant, high level, experience. I looked them up. 
Callahan, Junior A tier 2, Division 3 college for three years, SPHL/FHL 
Pietrasiak, four years div 3, SPHL and FHL 
Tatrn, Four years OHL (where he scored a total of 34 points and was -56 in 172 games), plus a year of US juniors, FHL/SPHL and one game in the ECHL, but he only played 6 games in PH
McWinney, 2 years Junior A, a couple years in the CHL/UHL, mostly as a backup. FHL/SPHL the last six years, only played 10 games for PH
Skinner, 2 years US junior A, 10 games div 3, FHL/SPHL for the last 6 years
Harris, 9 games Major junior, 2 seasons Junior A, FHL/SPHL for 3 years, 8 games with PH
Alonzo - played 4 years of div 3 hockey, bounces back and forth between FHL and SPHL 
Vanwynsberger - No junior or college listed - has played for multiple teams in the FHL and SPHL each of the last 3 seasons. 



> all have had SPHL experience



- the SPHL isn't a higher league than the FHL. Higher paid maybe. I wouldn't consider a few games in the SPHL as higher level experience.


> 4 players have an OHL history and others have major junior experience while a couple have NAHL play.



The OHL/Major junior histories are dubious at best. Most of the NAHL is tier 3. Major junior means OHL, WHL, QMJHL. Also big difference between a guy who spend four years playing alongside Crosby and a guy who played ten games total with minimal ice time.



> Look for yourself. Four players were called up to the SPHL this season. Is their a Gretzky or Yzerman on this list -no, but they do play hard and have respectable hockey experience.



I don't doubt they play hard, but that isn't "respectable hockey experience", at least compared to pro players in higher leagues. I wouldn't consider playing in the SPHL a "call-up". More of a lateral move. 

Your list of guys who played "most of the season" didn't list these guys who played at least 30 games for Port Huron
Nichols - four years of level 3 US juniors and 10 games of Div 3 hockey FHL/SPHL
Mahfouz - three partial seasons of CJHL (low level junior) FHL/SPHL
Tagoona - Junior A FHL/SPHL
Witmyer - US Tier 3 junior A, 5 games of Div 3 college, then 3 years of no pro or college hockey before joining PH. (I assume he finished his degree, but didn't play any more after those five games.) FHL/SPHL
Fuller - Played parts of two seasons in the OHL (was he hurt, or was he a healthy scratch?), then 10 games for U of Windsor (Canadian University Hockey - I assume he dropped out?) FHL/SPHL
Soskin - 17 games at two different Div 3 colleges, no junior hockey listed. FHL/SPHL 
Fraser - Canadian Junior A for part of one season FHL/SPHL
Pelletier - Canadian Junior A - five years FHL/SPHL
Devine - US Junior A, div 3 for two years - FHL and SPHL
Pace - 13 years between the UHL, SPHL, FHL, AAHL (new)IHL, SPHL, CHL, and AAHA. Wow, this guy is committed to the low minor life. I have to assume he has a job selling real estate or trading stocks online or something where he sets his own schedule and can move around a lot. Either that or someone else is paying his bills.
DiCristofaro - one season of ACHA college hockey (mostly club teams)

So that is the guys who played more than half the season, and most of them played low level juniors or a few games of Div 3 college. If I looked at the guys who only played a few games, I could probably find fill in guys with even less experience. 

I'm not busting on the FHL. Someone asked what kind of players they have. From what I can gather, the top players are mostly Junior A, Canadian University, or Division 3 US college players. Players with that type of background haven't been making ECHL rosters for at least a few years now. It used to be that top end Canadian Univ or Div 3 players could make an ECHL team, but with the consolidation of leagues they have been pretty much squeezed out. There also have at least some guys playing in the FHL who played only a few games of Div 3 or club hockey at small colleges, or only played minimally in juniors, or not at all. Those type of players would typically be playing in the local house league at a rec rink. With limited budgets it isn't surprising. I would assume most teams sign a few players with some real experience who they expect to have most of the year, and they fill out the rest of the roster with extra guys that have full time jobs doing something else and they either don't pay them, or give them a couple bucks per game. That is how it works in Canada with the LNAH and other "senior leagues". Most guys have another job, the top line is getting paid regularly, the bottom line guys show up when they can, and play for the fun of it and maybe some free equipment.

Some people like to claim the FHL is taking advantage of these guys. That may or may not be true. A local guy who works a job with flexible hours who is paying to play now, who gets the chance to play for free, in front a few hundred cheering fans, who knows full well this isn't going to lead to a hockey career, isn't being taken advantage of. He knows what he is getting into. If he has to chip in for gas money and do some of the driving to go to a road game, it is still better that what he would be doing that weekend if he wasn't playing for the local FHL team. 

As with any league there is a mixture of players. A few top end guys in the ECHL are going to end up having a decent NHL career, and there are guys who will play half a season, get healthy scratched a lot, and retire after one year. Same thing with the FHL, except the top end guys might jump around between the FHL and SPHL for a few years, and maybe get a tryout or a few fill in games with an ECHL team, and the bottom end guys are just rec league guys living the dream for a weekend or two. Nothing wrong with that, and if it is the difference between your town having a team and not having a team, I would go and support it too.


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## royals119

ForsbergForever said:


> Justin MacDonald was called up by Evansville late last season (while still finishing as the FHL's leading scorer) and played the whole season in the ECHL this year.
> 
> http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=128082



Well, he played 35 games, out of 72. Maybe he was on the roster the whole year, but he didn't play the whole year. Was he injured, or was he the 11th forward and he got scratched when everyone else was available ?

Also, Evansville was terrible, so the leading scorer from the FHL was a depth player on a bad team in the ECHL. 

Plus he had 3 seasons where he played mostly in the SPHL before he went to the FHL last year.


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## SemireliableSource

royals119 said:


> the SPHL isn't a higher league than the FHL. Higher paid maybe. I wouldn't consider a few games in the SPHL as higher level experience.




lol

Let's use the same players you listed:

Callahan - SPHL: 36 GP, 2 G, 8 A, +14/FHL: 13 GP, 4 G, 11 A, +18
Pietrasiak - SPHL: 25 GP, 2 G, 7 A, -5/FHL: 78 GP, 32 G, 63 A, +22
Tatrn - SPHL: 16 GP, 2 G, 1 A, E/FHL: 75 GP, 26 G, 46 A, -22
McWhinney - SPHL: 65-54-12, 2.82, 0.911/FHL: 39-12-1, 3.10, 0.912
Skinner - SPHL: 5 GP, 0 G, 0 A, -4/FHL: 213 GP, 102 G, 143 A, +12
Harris - SPHL: 28 GP, 3 G, 6 A, -4/FHL: 61 GP, 39 G, 30 A, -1
Alonzo - SPHL: 61 GP, 8 G, 20 A, E/FHL: 88 GP, 44 G, 90 A, +26
Vanwynsberghe - SPHL: 31 GP, 4 G, 0 A, -1 /FHL: 114 GP, 73 G, 96 A, +79

Those numbers seem to argue that the SPHL has a better level of play.

Top scorers from the FHL get called up to the SPHL and simply don't produce on the same level. The quality of play is a significant step up and also, a lot of those guys don't really have to work for it. They're the most skilled fish in a small pond, then in the SPHL they're on the low end of the skill spectrum instantly.


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## PH Hockey Fan

royals119 said:


> You said these guys played most of the year for PH, and have significant, high level, experience. I looked them up.
> Callahan, Junior A tier 2, Division 3 college for three years, SPHL/FHL
> Pietrasiak, four years div 3, SPHL and FHL
> Tatrn, Four years OHL (where he scored a total of 34 points and was -56 in 172 games), plus a year of US juniors, FHL/SPHL and one game in the ECHL, but he only played 6 games in PH
> McWinney, 2 years Junior A, a couple years in the CHL/UHL, mostly as a backup. FHL/SPHL the last six years, only played 10 games for PH
> Skinner, 2 years US junior A, 10 games div 3, FHL/SPHL for the last 6 years
> Harris, 9 games Major junior, 2 seasons Junior A, FHL/SPHL for 3 years, 8 games with PH
> Alonzo - played 4 years of div 3 hockey, bounces back and forth between FHL and SPHL
> Vanwynsberger - No junior or college listed - has played for multiple teams in the FHL and SPHL each of the last 3 seasons.
> 
> - the SPHL isn't a higher league than the FHL. Higher paid maybe. I wouldn't consider a few games in the SPHL as higher level experience.
> The OHL/Major junior histories are dubious at best. Most of the NAHL is tier 3. Major junior means OHL, WHL, QMJHL. Also big difference between a guy who spend four years playing alongside Crosby and a guy who played ten games total with minimal ice time.
> 
> 
> I don't doubt they play hard, but that isn't "respectable hockey experience", at least compared to pro players in higher leagues. I wouldn't consider playing in the SPHL a "call-up". More of a lateral move.
> 
> Your list of guys who played "most of the season" didn't list these guys who played at least 30 games for Port Huron
> Nichols - four years of level 3 US juniors and 10 games of Div 3 hockey FHL/SPHL
> Mahfouz - three partial seasons of CJHL (low level junior) FHL/SPHL
> Tagoona - Junior A FHL/SPHL
> Witmyer - US Tier 3 junior A, 5 games of Div 3 college, then 3 years of no pro or college hockey before joining PH. (I assume he finished his degree, but didn't play any more after those five games.) FHL/SPHL
> Fuller - Played parts of two seasons in the OHL (was he hurt, or was he a healthy scratch?), then 10 games for U of Windsor (Canadian University Hockey - I assume he dropped out?) FHL/SPHL
> Soskin - 17 games at two different Div 3 colleges, no junior hockey listed. FHL/SPHL
> Fraser - Canadian Junior A for part of one season FHL/SPHL
> Pelletier - Canadian Junior A - five years FHL/SPHL
> Devine - US Junior A, div 3 for two years - FHL and SPHL
> Pace - 13 years between the UHL, SPHL, FHL, AAHL (new)IHL, SPHL, CHL, and AAHA. Wow, this guy is committed to the low minor life. I have to assume he has a job selling real estate or trading stocks online or something where he sets his own schedule and can move around a lot. Either that or someone else is paying his bills.
> DiCristofaro - one season of ACHA college hockey (mostly club teams)
> 
> So that is the guys who played more than half the season, and most of them played low level juniors or a few games of Div 3 college. If I looked at the guys who only played a few games, I could probably find fill in guys with even less experience.
> 
> I'm not busting on the FHL. Someone asked what kind of players they have. From what I can gather, the top players are mostly Junior A, Canadian University, or Division 3 US college players. Players with that type of background haven't been making ECHL rosters for at least a few years now. It used to be that top end Canadian Univ or Div 3 players could make an ECHL team, but with the consolidation of leagues they have been pretty much squeezed out. There also have at least some guys playing in the FHL who played only a few games of Div 3 or club hockey at small colleges, or only played minimally in juniors, or not at all. Those type of players would typically be playing in the local house league at a rec rink. With limited budgets it isn't surprising. I would assume most teams sign a few players with some real experience who they expect to have most of the year, and they fill out the rest of the roster with extra guys that have full time jobs doing something else and they either don't pay them, or give them a couple bucks per game. That is how it works in Canada with the LNAH and other "senior leagues". Most guys have another job, the top line is getting paid regularly, the bottom line guys show up when they can, and play for the fun of it and maybe some free equipment.
> 
> Some people like to claim the FHL is taking advantage of these guys. That may or may not be true. A local guy who works a job with flexible hours who is paying to play now, who gets the chance to play for free, in front a few hundred cheering fans, who knows full well this isn't going to lead to a hockey career, isn't being taken advantage of. He knows what he is getting into. If he has to chip in for gas money and do some of the driving to go to a road game, it is still better that what he would be doing that weekend if he wasn't playing for the local FHL team.
> 
> As with any league there is a mixture of players. A few top end guys in the ECHL are going to end up having a decent NHL career, and there are guys who will play half a season, get healthy scratched a lot, and retire after one year. Same thing with the FHL, except the top end guys might jump around between the FHL and SPHL for a few years, and maybe get a tryout or a few fill in games with an ECHL team, and the bottom end guys are just rec league guys living the dream for a weekend or two. Nothing wrong with that, and if it is the difference between your town having a team and not having a team, I would go and support it too.



It was never my intent to get on here and argue with any of you. I have conceded and have stated over and over that it is a lower calaber grade of hockey. I get it! Do I really care how much hockey pedigree each player has on the Prowlers or the FHL in general-no. We have fun going to the games, it's 10 minutes from home. Our home team won a championship this year. If I want to get my fix of NHL hockey, I will travel to The Joe and see the Red Wings 3 or 4 times a year. 
The players were great in the community. They must have went to every elementary school in Port Huron this year to play some stick hockey with the kids or read books to the younger classes. That makes me even more proud of them especially when you think of the little money they make playing the sport that they still love. Apparently they are comfortable with the wage they receive. No one is holding them for ramsom. Let's all just lighten up a little and enjoy hockey. I assume that everyone on this site feels the same about this great sport or they wouldn't spend the time involved with it, what ever level it might be.


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