# Cities Without Hockey That Would Do Better Than Elmira, Wheeling, and Brampton



## My Cozen Dylan

Simple. What cities would draw a better crowd that would allow them to at least sustain hockey and a decent in-arena experience?

I think Jacksonville, Baltimore, and Richmond would work personally.


----------



## JDogindy

jawallstar1 said:


> Simple. What cities would draw a better crowd that would allow them to at least sustain hockey and a decent in-arena experience?
> 
> I think Jacksonville, Baltimore, and Richmond would work personally.




Understandable, but all three have had teams over the years, and they all fizzled out in a few years.

I'd argue more for a Lowell or New Haven.


----------



## My Cozen Dylan

JDogindy said:


> Understandable, but all three have had teams over the years, and they all fizzled out in a few years.
> 
> I'd argue more for a Lowell or New Haven.




History is not always indicative of the past. If Orlando didn't have a team now and I put them on the list, similar reasoning would be used, yet they now have one of the best attendance records in minor league hockey.


----------



## JungleJON

I would add Birmingham, Greensboro and Bossier Shreveport to the list.


----------



## Hoodaha

jawallstar1 said:


> Simple. What cities would draw a better crowd that would allow them to at least sustain hockey and a decent in-arena experience?
> 
> I think Jacksonville, Baltimore, and Richmond would work personally.




Sacramento, Fresno, Vegas


----------



## HansH

Jacksonville's arena is too large and costly for most mid- and low-minors budgets (see the SPHL attempt there). Maybe the AHL, eventually, but no time soon.

Baltimore is a TOTAL nonstarter without a different facility. Period.


----------



## Artie Fufkin

Baltimore and Richmond are pretty much in the same boat. Even if someone wanted to try in either building, it will still require significant renovations to the locker rooms, and either a renovation or construction of a weight and training room.

The opportunity for minor league hockey in Lowell ended when the building was sold to UMASS-Lowell. There's no place to play in New Haven, since the Coliseum was imploded (Yale is not an option).


----------



## MiamiHockey

Cornwall, Ontario. The heart of hockey country. It has a good ECHL-sized barn and is close to other small cities (Brockville, Valleyfield) from which it could draw support. If it was affiliated with Montreal or Ottawa, I think it would be successful.


----------



## My Cozen Dylan

MiamiHockey said:


> Cornwall, Ontario. The heart of hockey country. It has a good ECHL-sized barn and is close to other small cities (Brockville, Valleyfield) from which it could draw support. If it was affiliated with Montreal or Ottawa, I think it would be successful.




Sounds more OHL-esque than minor-pro. Brampton is a prime example of why minor-pro (other than AHL) won't work in Ontario IMO.


----------



## MiamiHockey

jawallstar1 said:


> Sounds more OHL-esque than minor-pro. Brampton is a prime example of why minor-pro (other than AHL) won't work in Ontario IMO.




Brampton and Cornwall could not possibly be any more different. Brampton is a major city / suburb or Toronto whose population is majority first or second generation Canadians, whereas Cornwall is a small city far from any major city. Brampton had an under-supported OHL team for many years, owing as much to the terrible location of the arena (a five-minute drive to the Mississauga OHL team's arena) as the city itself. Cornwall currently provides strong support to a Jr A franchise (the Colts) and could support an OHL team, as it has in the past, but it could also support an ECHL franchise. However, it's not accurate to suggest that Cornwall would be unable to support minor-pro because Brampton's support is underwhelming.


----------



## My Cozen Dylan

MiamiHockey said:


> Brampton and Cornwall could not possibly be any more different. Brampton is a major city / suburb or Toronto whose population is majority first or second generation Canadians, whereas Cornwall is a small city far from any major city. Brampton had an under-supported OHL team for many years, owing as much to the terrible location of the arena (a five-minute drive to the Mississauga OHL team's arena) as the city itself. Cornwall currently provides strong support to a Jr A franchise (the Colts) and could support an OHL team, as it has in the past, but it could also support an ECHL franchise. However, it's not accurate to suggest that Cornwall would be unable to support minor-pro because Brampton's support is underwhelming.




I just personally don't see ECHL in Canada working.


----------



## JDogindy

MiamiHockey said:


> Brampton and Cornwall could not possibly be any more different. Brampton is a major city / suburb or Toronto whose population is majority first or second generation Canadians, whereas Cornwall is a small city far from any major city. Brampton had an under-supported OHL team for many years, owing as much to the terrible location of the arena (a five-minute drive to the Mississauga OHL team's arena) as the city itself. Cornwall currently provides strong support to a Jr A franchise (the Colts) and could support an OHL team, as it has in the past, but it could also support an ECHL franchise. However, it's not accurate to suggest that Cornwall would be unable to support minor-pro because Brampton's support is underwhelming.




Back when I was against the Beast, I often cited that Brampton underperformed in their support for the OHL Batallion, before they moved to North Bay.

Personally, I think that one solution to the problem is providing them with more regional opponents to get some interest in, because I think it's hard to get people excited over repeated meetings with Tulsa and Wichita. I still think they should be closer to the AHL outcasts under the new alignment.


----------



## Avsrule2022

How about anywhere West of the Mississippi? There is no need for more teams in the East.
Casper, Denver, Albuquerque, Lincoln, Fargo, Billings, Portland.
Fire away.......


----------



## My Cozen Dylan

Avsrule2002 said:


> How about anywhere West of the Mississippi? There is no need for more teams in the East.
> Casper, Denver, Albuquerque, Lincoln, Fargo, Billings, Portland.
> Fire away.......




Denver has this team called the Avalanche...Maybe you've heard of them...

Also, Lincoln and Fargo have USHL teams, and Portland has a WHL team.

Casper and Billings...That's the middle of "Stay Away"ville in regards to pro sports.

Albuquerque...I don't know. Maybe.


----------



## Avsrule2022

jawallstar1 said:


> Denver has this team called the Avalanche...Maybe you've heard of them...
> 
> Also, Lincoln and Fargo have USHL teams, and Portland has a WHL team.
> 
> Casper and Billings...That's the middle of "Stay Away"ville in regards to pro sports.
> 
> Albuquerque...I don't know. Maybe.




Yep, I know who the Avs are......

The Eagles would add 500 to attendance during their visits to an ECHL team in Denver. But I agree, it's still a bad idea. I was just throwing out locations in the West who I think have as good a chance to support a team as anywhere in the saturated East.
The funny thing is, Albuquerque is the one from my list that I think would be the worst of all of them. They couldn't even support a Junior A WSHL team, and their nice new arena is in the middle of nowhere.


----------



## Clinton Comets EHL

Avsrule2002 said:


> How about anywhere West of the Mississippi? There is no need for more teams in the East.
> Casper, Denver, Albuquerque, Lincoln, Fargo, Billings, Portland.
> Fire away.......




Denver? Seriously?


----------



## Hoodaha

Colorado Springs


----------



## blizz71

In a perfect world, I would like to see a team in Jacksonville, Louisville, Peoria, Bossier Shreveport and Vegas. 

Hans, I understand what you stated about the Jacksonville arena being too large and costly for mid major hockey, but for the SPHL team that was there, was the lower bowl seating only used for their games? In terms of business, can a team have a lease (and rent amount) based only on the lower bowl seats? 

Speaking of Shreveport, I don't remember why the Mudbugs closed their doors. Was it a situation of losing money or did the owner decide he didn't want to have the team anymore?


----------



## jason2020

MiamiHockey said:


> Brampton and Cornwall could not possibly be any more different. Brampton is a major city / suburb or Toronto whose population is majority first or second generation Canadians, whereas Cornwall is a small city far from any major city. Brampton had an under-supported OHL team for many years, owing as much to the terrible location of the arena (a five-minute drive to the Mississauga OHL team's arena) as the city itself. Cornwall currently provides strong support to a Jr A franchise (the Colts) and could support an OHL team, as it has in the past, but it could also support an ECHL franchise. However, it's not accurate to suggest that Cornwall would be unable to support minor-pro because Brampton's support is underwhelming.




Cornwall is a hour from both Ottawa and Montreal that is not far now with that said Cornwall has had a Ahl team in the past.


----------



## jason2020

jawallstar1 said:


> Sounds more OHL-esque than minor-pro. Brampton is a prime example of why minor-pro (other than AHL) won't work in Ontario IMO.




Toronto area is not a good hockey market out it this way there are jr a teams that draw better then minor pro teams do in the Gta.


----------



## JDogindy

6768clintoncomets575 said:


> Denver? Seriously?




Yeah... Cutthroats... nah.

If I'm the ECHL, the Mountain West should be exploded a bit.


----------



## Avsrule2022

JDogindy said:


> Yeah... Cutthroats... nah.
> 
> If I'm the ECHL, the Mountain West should be exploded a bit.




Purely selfish on my part. I want a close road trip!


----------



## speedrissr

Hard to pick future markets based on past results, but Bossier would be near the top of my list if they could generate half the interest they had when they were in the CHL. Great fanbase and good town to visit. Still its hard to judge how a town reacts after losing a team. Generally lower level minor league hockey does better in less sophisticated markets, meaning the southern markets do better than towns up north with either a good college or major junior alternative.

The fascination with the northeast continues, but its a college hockey market, especially with all the Junior teams fighting for space. In the end, the ECHL won't have any teams in the northeast, you can't beat college hockey, its weekend games only, and talent wise, not much different than the ECHL.

Al?

RLR


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Peoria's the town that I'll always stress.


----------



## Artie Fufkin

Hoodaha said:


> Colorado Springs




Unless they rip out the Olympic sized ice sheet, that's not happening.



blizz71 said:


> In a perfect world, I would like to see a team in Jacksonville, Louisville, Peoria, Bossier Shreveport and Vegas.
> 
> Hans, I understand what you stated about the Jacksonville arena being too large and costly for mid major hockey, but for the SPHL team that was there, was the lower bowl seating only used for their games? In terms of business, can a team have a lease (and rent amount) based only on the lower bowl seats?
> 
> Speaking of Shreveport, I don't remember why the Mudbugs closed their doors. Was it a situation of losing money or did the owner decide he didn't want to have the team anymore?




Owner could not secure enough season ticket holders to justify the cost of operating the team. SMG, the arena operator, didn't make the team's life easy either. They felt they could make more money with other events.


----------



## speedrissr

No Fun Shogun said:


> Peoria's the town that I'll always stress.




Good call, given the right arena arrangement, with QC and Fort Fun, it fits right in the ECHL footprint.

Al?

RLR


----------



## CTHabsfan

JDogindy said:


> Understandable, but all three have had teams over the years, and they all fizzled out in a few years.
> 
> I'd argue more for a Lowell or New Haven.




New Haven doesn't have an arena, so no chance there.


----------



## PCSPounder

Artie Fufkin said:


> Unless they rip out the Olympic sized ice sheet, that's not happening.




That was never the issue with the WCHL, and if it mattered in the E, then Anchorage wouldn't be in the league, either. I'm rather certain many owners wouldn't mind finding an excuse to push Anchorage out, too.

Anchorage is the special town that consistently supports both minor pro and college in the same arena. The Aces have had more success; UAA only has three ever playoff appearances and only once was in the Elite Eight.

Colorado College "owns" (spiritually) World Arena and Colorado Springs. A couple of championships, a somewhat recent Frozen Four... the Gold Kings simply could never get a toehold. 

I think the Broomfield and Cutthroat experiences suggest that Denver is out, and I don't think you're cracking Colorado Springs. The Avs have a history and the Eagles sell all their seats up north. Unless you want to try getting an arena in Pueblo, or you think Grand Junction is a large-enough market, I think the state of Colorado is tapped.


----------



## PCSPounder

jawallstar1 said:


> Simple. What cities would draw a better crowd that would allow them to at least sustain hockey and a decent in-arena experience?
> 
> I think Jacksonville, Baltimore, and Richmond would work personally.




Your question misses a key point by being placed here. The cities with more staying power, more often than not (a couple exceptions exist), have SMALLER arenas. The trick is to keep the rent down and season ticket sales up. Hans is right to mention the arena in Jacksonville. I'm arguing that new arenas in Tulsa and Wichita (neither of which are big enough markets for those size arenas) have hurt hockey in those markets... if you're going to have a bigger arena, it better be in markets like Orlando and Cincinnati and they better be amenable to working to make hockey work in those places.

Of course, the economy also has to work in the places you mention. Elmira and Wheeling are declining markets altogether. That doesn't mean large markets are the cure. *The building is more important.*

I know my west better than my east. I'm not sure it isn't time to break Billings out of jail... though reducing the hockey capacity of Rimrock Auto Arena from 8,700 to 6,500 and adding luxury suites would be part of the equation. If Seattle gets an NHL arena, then maybe we talk about the fallout from that and perhaps be able to poach Spokane. If I could build a downtown Albuquerque arena, or Reno, or try to work the fringes of Portland (which includes Salem), well... 

...I'd actually try to beg for a downsize of the Tacoma Dome first. When that doesn't happen, hoping against hope to peel off Spokane is number 2. Albuquerque is also kind of more dream than reality. Reno is really the target IMO. Salem comes next, Billings after.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

anyone think Johnstown PA would work again


----------



## JDogindy

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> anyone think Johnstown PA would work again




Do they still have a viable arena?


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

JDogindy said:


> Do they still have a viable arena?




Yes the war memorial is still there they have junior team there now but i would love to see a E team there again


----------



## JackalsKnuckles

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> anyone think Johnstown PA would work again




Seems to me like the fans in Johnstown are quite happy with the Tomahawks. Not sure they would want to go the ECHL route again. Attendance is almost as high as it was when they were in the ECHL. Much more entertaining hockey too at a lower ticket price.


----------



## mk80

Peoria is obviously a first choice for an ECHL return. A second choice is Houston but that would need a new arena entirely or a change of heart from the NBA owners. 

I think New Orleans deserves another shot at the ECHL. But again like Houston, the NBA twisted the Brass out of the arena, so maybe with the right ownership and cooperation from the Pelicans it could work.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

Another thing they need to worry about is not just the footprint but location as to catch the interest of the local nhl fan base if there is one in the area . Kinda how the new ownership in Reading finaly got SMG to embrace the Flyers affilation. Now the population around Reading recognize the Royals as the minor league Flyers it also helps that there is a joint marketing effort between. Reading allentown and philly . I think if cities like johnstown that are in a good geographic to a NHL team can work the same model the team would thrive.


----------



## JackalsKnuckles

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> Another thing they need to worry about is not just the footprint but location as to catch the interest of the local nhl fan base if there is one in the area . Kinda how the new ownership in Reading finaly got SMG to embrace the Flyers affilation. Now the population around Reading recognize the Royals as the minor league Flyers it also helps that there is a joint marketing effort between. Reading allentown and philly . I think if cities like johnstown that are in a good geographic to a NHL team can work the same model the team would thrive.




The problem with the ECHL is they are trying to be too much like the NHL. Elmira went with Buffalo (closest franchise) and Rochester to attract the casual fan. As of now attendance is down even compared to last year's numbers. They may be getting the casual or "NHL fan" on occasion but the fans who embraced minor league hockey in the UHL and first couple ECHL years are gone. In Johnstown fans now get a hardworking team with not much roster turnover, and don't get force fed the message that they are seeing "future NHLers who are developing". Once fans buy into the ECHL product and then see that callups and lack of help from the parent club can ruin a season they stay away after they see the same story playout season after season.


----------



## JungleJON

JackalsKnuckles said:


> Seems to me like the fans in Johnstown are quite happy with the Tomahawks. Not sure they would want to go the ECHL route again. Attendance is almost as high as it was when they were in the ECHL. Much more entertaining hockey too at a lower ticket price.




I don't think Johnstown could support an ECHL team again. The Tomahawks offer tickets at half the price of what the Chiefs did. I was in the States last fall and went to their home opener - they could not even get a full house and had lots of time to promote the game as they played away games until the end of October.
The game stunk - I love hockey but would never support the Tomahawks. As far as attendance it has been slipping over the past few years, so if they don't get a winning team soon - they could be on their way out.
Number 1 reason for me is they need to get a coach who can handle youth. The went with a former Chief player for the first two years, just because he was friends with Rick Boyd. Average team both years - now they replace Spence with his assistant who had NO experience what-so-ever and again this year - average team, but will get knocked out in the first round.
If the SPHL had expanded to include Richmond, Roanoke and maybe a few teams up north - that would be the way to go.
Johnstown is just not able to handle minor pro hockey.


----------



## Sal

The Tomahawks and the War Memorial Arena are currently negotiating a long term lease for the NAHL team to stay in Johnstown for many years to come. Junior hockey is probably the only business model that will now succeed in Johnstown.

The team itself is seeing a decline in attendance this season due to the fact that the team is struggling just to win home games. The biggest mistake this organization made when they moved the team from Alaska, was not bringing coach Corey Millen with them. All he has done since taking another coaching job in Minnesota is win!


----------



## mfrerkes

speedrissr said:


> Good call, given the right arena arrangement, with QC and Fort Fun, it fits right in the ECHL footprint.




I'd enthusiastically welcome Peoria back into the ECHL. It would give the Mallards that great rival we've been lacking for years.


----------



## JDogindy

mfrerkes said:


> I'd enthusiastically welcome Peoria back into the ECHL. It would give the Mallards that great rival we've been lacking for years.




Also, considering that the Rivermen are an island in the SPHL, it's a better position to be competing against Quad City, Kalamazoo, and the Indiana teams than having to drive all the way down to Memphis for your closest rival.


----------



## JungleJON

Sal said:


> The Tomahawks and the War Memorial Arena are currently negotiating a long term lease for the NAHL team to stay in Johnstown for many years to come. Junior hockey is probably the only business model that will now succeed in Johnstown.
> 
> The team itself is seeing a decline in attendance this season due to the fact that the team is struggling just to win home games. The biggest mistake this organization made when they moved the team from Alaska, was not bringing coach Corey Millen with them. All he has done since taking another coaching job in Minnesota is win!




Glad someone else noticed that. I wrote to the Tomahawks and ask they why they didn't bring him - no response.


----------



## mfrerkes

JDogindy said:


> Also, considering that the Rivermen are an island in the SPHL, it's a better position to be competing against Quad City, Kalamazoo, and the Indiana teams than having to drive all the way down to Memphis for your closest rival.




Seems like it would be a no-brainer for Peoria, but minor league hockey isn't known for its adherence to common sense.


----------



## Affiliate Watcher

Why the hate on Brampton? We're a second year team, and this is our first year in the ECHL. Plus we just lost our OHL team 2 years ago.

While operating a team not called the Maple Leafs is a hard sell within the GTA, it doesn't mean it's impossible, it just means you have to do better marketing. The Beast are doing thatâ€¦ there's local newspaper write ups, the management gets on the Toronto sports radio stations about once a week and those of us in the stands take as many people to games as we can just to drum up the interestâ€¦ it's working, albeit slowly. The supporter club/season ticket member doubled from last year, and before you mock the number of going from 1000 to 2000, be aware that's a 100% increase in ONE YEAR.

I don't argue the fact that the arena is in a terrible spot (hell even the mayor wanted it in a more central/downtown area), but the argument of demographics is bunkâ€¦ Brampton is a blue collar town. Yes we have a larger percentage of new Canadians, but they don't outnumber the people who have been in Brampton for many generations.
The other oversight by a lot of people is our proximity to an international airport. I can not argue if Cornwall would make for a good ECHL team or not, but I can argue about what helps a teams location. Being ten minutes from the airport means that if a player is called up, the work involved to get him on a plane and to the city he needs to be suited up in is a lot less work than if the team is in a city that is hours from an international airport. 

You can all argue up and down why Brampton shouldn't have a team, but I believe that with this ownership commitment and a continuation of positive marketing and word of mouth, you'll see the Beast at least in the middle of the pack when it comes to attendance in 5 years or less.


----------



## Francis10

Affiliate Watcher said:


> Why the hate on Brampton? We're a second year team, and this is our first year in the ECHL. Plus we just lost our OHL team 2 years ago.
> 
> While operating a team not called the Maple Leafs is a hard sell within the GTA, it doesn't mean it's impossible, it just means you have to do better marketing. The Beast are doing thatâ€¦ there's local newspaper write ups, the management gets on the Toronto sports radio stations about once a week and those of us in the stands take as many people to games as we can just to drum up the interestâ€¦ it's working, albeit slowly. The supporter club/season ticket member doubled from last year, and before you mock the number of going from 1000 to 2000, be aware that's a 100% increase in ONE YEAR.
> 
> I don't argue the fact that the arena is in a terrible spot (hell even the mayor wanted it in a more central/downtown area), but the argument of demographics is bunkâ€¦ Brampton is a blue collar town. Yes we have a larger percentage of new Canadians, but they don't outnumber the people who have been in Brampton for many generations.
> The other oversight by a lot of people is our proximity to an international airport. I can not argue if Cornwall would make for a good ECHL team or not, but I can argue about what helps a teams location. Being ten minutes from the airport means that if a player is called up, the work involved to get him on a plane and to the city he needs to be suited up in is a lot less work than if the team is in a city that is hours from an international airport.
> 
> You can all argue up and down why Brampton shouldn't have a team, but I believe that with this ownership commitment and a continuation of positive marketing and word of mouth, you'll see the Beast at least in the middle of the pack when it comes to attendance in 5 years or less.




Great post. Hope it works out there. 

Rumour has it that Fort McMurray, Alberta is getting new arena and being backed by Edmonton Oilers for new ECHL team.


----------



## MiamiHockey

Affiliate Watcher said:


> Why the hate on Brampton? We're a second year team, and this is our first year in the ECHL. Plus we just lost our OHL team 2 years ago.
> 
> While operating a team not called the Maple Leafs is a hard sell within the GTA, it doesn't mean it's impossible, it just means you have to do better marketing. The Beast are doing thatâ€¦ there's local newspaper write ups, the management gets on the Toronto sports radio stations about once a week and those of us in the stands take as many people to games as we can just to drum up the interestâ€¦ it's working, albeit slowly. The supporter club/season ticket member doubled from last year, and before you mock the number of going from 1000 to 2000, be aware that's a 100% increase in ONE YEAR.
> 
> I don't argue the fact that the arena is in a terrible spot (hell even the mayor wanted it in a more central/downtown area), but the argument of demographics is bunkâ€¦ Brampton is a blue collar town. Yes we have a larger percentage of new Canadians, but they don't outnumber the people who have been in Brampton for many generations.
> The other oversight by a lot of people is our proximity to an international airport. I can not argue if Cornwall would make for a good ECHL team or not, but I can argue about what helps a teams location. Being ten minutes from the airport means that if a player is called up, the work involved to get him on a plane and to the city he needs to be suited up in is a lot less work than if the team is in a city that is hours from an international airport.
> 
> You can all argue up and down why Brampton shouldn't have a team, but I believe that with this ownership commitment and a continuation of positive marketing and word of mouth, you'll see the Beast at least in the middle of the pack when it comes to attendance in 5 years or less.




I agree that the ECHL can be a success in Brampton, especially IF it becomes affiliated with the Leafs.

As you may have noticed, most of the people in this thread are American. In my earlier posts, I was trying to explain why a Canadian city with 500,000 people in it struggles to get 3000 people to a hockey game. Based on sheer numbers, it should be a no-brainer that any hockey team would sell in such a city. But, the combination of demographics and arena location make that more difficult for Brampton than it seemingly should be.

Americans interpret the attendance figures as suggesting that Canadians don't care for the ECHL. I disagree.

And, the mayors of Brampton and Mississauga should be lambasted for building identical arenas within a 10 minute drive of each other. If Mississauga had built the Hershey Centre closer to the QEW and Brampton had built its arena closer to the 407, I'd venture to say attendance would be higher for both the (former) Battalion and the Ice Dogs / Majors / Steelheads.


----------



## Affiliate Watcher

It won't be the Leafs. Toronto and Orlando have a solid contract through at least on more year. At a recent state of franchise meeting the ownership said their priority is not just proximity to the NHL franchise, but also that we get an affiliation with a team that actually gives a shyte about it's affiliates and their ability to develop players. The ownership then asked who the fans wanted and the most popular were Detroit, Montreal and Ottawa. I asked for Minnesota.
Montreal looked like a good bet, until they just pulled the Bulldogs out of Hamilton and sent them to St Johns. 
I don't think the Leafs are as big of a draw out here as you might think. I've noticed there's more of the real hockey fans here and less of the corporate and blind loyalty ones. We want good hockey, we're not worried about the bigger teams brand as long as the action on the ice is solid.

As for the Mayorsâ€¦. the former Mayor of Brampton wanted an arena built right downtown with the newly built theatre, but the rest of the council went with money and put it in the worst spot possible. It's not pretty but it works and the atmosphere is pretty good.


----------



## PCSPounder

Affiliate Watcher said:


> Why the hate on Brampton? We're a second year team, and this is our first year in the ECHL. Plus we just lost our OHL team 2 years ago.
> 
> While operating a team not called the Maple Leafs is a hard sell within the GTA, it doesn't mean it's impossible, it just means you have to do better marketing. The Beast are doing that… there's local newspaper write ups, the management gets on the Toronto sports radio stations about once a week and those of us in the stands take as many people to games as we can just to drum up the interest… it's working, albeit slowly. The supporter club/season ticket member doubled from last year, and before you mock the number of going from 1000 to 2000, be aware that's a 100% increase in ONE YEAR.
> 
> I don't argue the fact that the arena is in a terrible spot (hell even the mayor wanted it in a more central/downtown area), but the argument of demographics is bunk… Brampton is a blue collar town. Yes we have a larger percentage of new Canadians, but they don't outnumber the people who have been in Brampton for many generations.
> The other oversight by a lot of people is our proximity to an international airport. I can not argue if Cornwall would make for a good ECHL team or not, but I can argue about what helps a teams location. Being ten minutes from the airport means that if a player is called up, the work involved to get him on a plane and to the city he needs to be suited up in is a lot less work than if the team is in a city that is hours from an international airport.
> 
> You can all argue up and down why Brampton shouldn't have a team, but I believe that with this ownership commitment and a continuation of positive marketing and word of mouth, you'll see the Beast at least in the middle of the pack when it comes to attendance in 5 years or less.




I don't see Brampton as much different than the San Francisco Spiders issue. This being Toronto rather than San Francisco might have a certain set of differences, but I doubt it matters. I tend to think the Leafs get ALL the attention. Marketing in a large market is a lot harder- spendier- than marketing in, say, Thunder Bay. It's simply more expensive to operate in larger markets.

Moreover, the pictures I see out of Brampton tell me not to regard the posted numbers very much.


----------



## mk80

I think with the ECHL needing to balance out what remains of the Western Conference. The best addition would be Peoria, although right now they don't seem to rushing to get out of the SPHL. 

As I've stated before Houston would be a coup for the ECHL it would gives teams a chance both Allen and Texas in one swing, but there's no arena options right now. Same with New Orleans as I had suggested, I think they could make a good market for a team. Both could easily slide into the Western Conference, obviously New Orleans would be a bit of stretch. 

But also another idea, and maybe some Canadians could give me a better picture on it, but Chilliwack, BC? They lost their WHL franchise but possibly there would be enough interest to sustain an ECHL club and help out trips to Alaska.


----------



## PCSPounder

So on the BoH board, one of the AHL threads finally got around- or back- to Northwest issues.

I believe it was ECHL brass speculating that Tacoma would have AHL interest.



> Originally Posted by Brodie
> 
> An A team in Tacoma would likely spell death for the W teams in the area, which might mean better opportunities for the league in Alberta anyway.




So I said...



> Which has been on my mind for some time. I frankly think NHL Seattle would put the Thunderbirds in the ground before we even consider the A, and I know there's protestations here to the contrary. If anything, since I can't really see the Tacoma Dome disrupting their concert business by buying into the AHL (which means a major renovation or retrofit of the facility), I think Everett might be the target. 60% Everett, 40% Kent? Not that I'm any oddsmaker.
> 
> The Mariners have AAA in Tacoma and Short A in Everett. The model of operation is already known in town. So, as an aside... I think the E really wants to get in on this, if for no other reason than Alaska Airlines connects Sea-Tac to most of the other ECHL western markets.
> 
> So you can imagine my concern about Portland in all this. And no, I don't think the AHL realistically works there in place of the Winterhawks... also a hunch more than absolute truth.


----------



## Cacciaguida

I'm not ready to give up on Brampton. If the Leafs woke up and affiliated with them they could work, but since the Leafs are inept it won't happen and the opportunity will die.

How about Baltimore, Norfolk, Worcester or Peoria? 


The fact Baltimore doesn't have a team bothers me. I don't understand why Washinton isn't putting a team there to expand their presence.

Those other cites were pushed out of the AHL. But I believe they still have hockey in them. Perhaps Worcester could be a great ECHL Bruins affiliate?


----------



## Cacciaguida

mk80 said:


> I think with the ECHL needing to balance out what remains of the Western Conference. The best addition would be Peoria, although right now they don't seem to rushing to get out of the SPHL.
> 
> As I've stated before Houston would be a coup for the ECHL it would gives teams a chance both Allen and Texas in one swing, but there's no arena options right now. Same with New Orleans as I had suggested, I think they could make a good market for a team. Both could easily slide into the Western Conference, obviously New Orleans would be a bit of stretch.
> 
> But also another idea, and maybe some Canadians could give me a better picture on it, but Chilliwack, BC? They lost their WHL franchise but possibly there would be enough interest to sustain an ECHL club and help out trips to Alaska.




Chilliwack is interesting, and will doubly so if Abbotsford gets a Canucks AHL affiliate. The Heat are why they moved in the first place, as well as Victoria opening up. If left alone they'd probably turn out like Brampton to be honest. 

I also like the idea of New Orleans and Houston getting teams, however I believe Houston is more suited for the AHL.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Cacciaguida said:


> I'm not ready to give up on Brampton. If the Leafs woke up and affiliated with them they could work, but since the Leafs are inept it won't happen and the opportunity will die.
> 
> How about Baltimore, Norfolk, Worcester or Peoria?
> 
> 
> The fact Baltimore doesn't have a team bothers me. I don't understand why Washinton isn't putting a team there to expand their presence.
> 
> Those other cites were pushed out of the AHL. But I believe they still have hockey in them. Perhaps Worcester could be a great ECHL Bruins affiliate?




how do we know Monumental hasn't explored Baltimore, the difference is do they want to own their affiliate and or have another arena to operate within their footprint, when they already run the Patriot Center. the way Washington's philosophy is it doesn't appear that's an option even for a return to the E

Peoria wasn't pushed out, they elected not to renew their lease there, and the franchise was sold to Utica/Vancouver by the Blues, who replaced the Canucks in Rosemont, IL, despite the Chicago moniker, that's my pet peeve, if you don't play in the city don't claim it as your city.

Norfolk only was pushed because Chicago wanted a place for its affiliate, and the Admirals also at the time were a Capitals affiliate when they were promoted... SAME w/ Richmond, arena issues and the issues surrounding Richmond as a sports market overall are holding that market back, besides the Renegades history didn't materialize in the SPHL, AS IT had been when both Norfolk and Richmond were head to head, which is why the Admirals survived the transfer until this season


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

*update-Richmond*



jawallstar1 said:


> Simple. What cities would draw a better crowd that would allow them to at least sustain hockey and a decent in-arena experience?
> 
> I think Jacksonville, Baltimore, and Richmond would work personally.




Richmond actually has at least 2 junior league based teams, similar to what Portland has with its JR Pirates and what Lewiston will have in the NA3EHL w/ the Fighting Saints...

one is the Richmond Generals, who are part of the Metropolitan Hockey League


----------



## jason2020

Affiliate Watcher said:


> Why the hate on Brampton? We're a second year team, and this is our first year in the ECHL. Plus we just lost our OHL team 2 years ago.
> 
> While operating a team not called the Maple Leafs is a hard sell within the GTA, it doesn't mean it's impossible, it just means you have to do better marketing. The Beast are doing thatâ€¦ there's local newspaper write ups, the management gets on the Toronto sports radio stations about once a week and those of us in the stands take as many people to games as we can just to drum up the interestâ€¦ it's working, albeit slowly. The supporter club/season ticket member doubled from last year, and before you mock the number of going from 1000 to 2000, be aware that's a 100% increase in ONE YEAR.
> 
> I don't argue the fact that the arena is in a terrible spot (hell even the mayor wanted it in a more central/downtown area), but the argument of demographics is bunkâ€¦ Brampton is a blue collar town. Yes we have a larger percentage of new Canadians, but they don't outnumber the people who have been in Brampton for many generations.
> The other oversight by a lot of people is our proximity to an international airport. I can not argue if Cornwall would make for a good ECHL team or not, but I can argue about what helps a teams location. Being ten minutes from the airport means that if a player is called up, the work involved to get him on a plane and to the city he needs to be suited up in is a lot less work than if the team is in a city that is hours from an international airport.
> 
> You can all argue up and down why Brampton shouldn't have a team, but I believe that with this ownership commitment and a continuation of positive marketing and word of mouth, you'll see the Beast at least in the middle of the pack when it comes to attendance in 5 years or less.




Cornwall is a hour from both Ottawa and Montreal some would say this would be the perfect spot for Echl team.


----------



## jason2020

Francis10 said:


> Great post. Hope it works out there.
> 
> Rumour has it that Fort McMurray, Alberta is getting new arena and being backed by Edmonton Oilers for new ECHL team.




That was the rumor last year with the area was booming like crazy but thing have not been going as well due to the low cost of oil so who knows if they will move forward with a new rink.


----------



## jason2020

MiamiHockey said:


> I agree that the ECHL can be a success in Brampton, especially IF it becomes affiliated with the Leafs.
> 
> As you may have noticed, most of the people in this thread are American. In my earlier posts, I was trying to explain why a Canadian city with 500,000 people in it struggles to get 3000 people to a hockey game. Based on sheer numbers, it should be a no-brainer that any hockey team would sell in such a city. But, the combination of demographics and arena location make that more difficult for Brampton than it seemingly should be.
> 
> Americans interpret the attendance figures as suggesting that Canadians don't care for the ECHL. I disagree.
> 
> And, the mayors of Brampton and Mississauga should be lambasted for building identical arenas within a 10 minute drive of each other. If Mississauga had built the Hershey Centre closer to the QEW and Brampton had built its arena closer to the 407, I'd venture to say attendance would be higher for both the (former) Battalion and the Ice Dogs / Majors / Steelheads.




The Gta for major jr said every game was going to be sold out that did not happen people in Brampton said the Echl team would avg 5000 that did not happen.


----------



## JDogindy

Cacciaguida said:


> Chilliwack is interesting, and will doubly so if Abbotsford gets a Canucks AHL affiliate. The Heat are why they moved in the first place, as well as Victoria opening up. If left alone they'd probably turn out like Brampton to be honest.
> 
> I also like the idea of New Orleans and Houston getting teams, however I believe Houston is more suited for the AHL.




Problem with Houston is that the only major arena in the area is the Toyota Center, and Les Alexander killed the Aeros on purpose. He made it clear that either an NHL team plays there, or no team plays there. If an ECHL Houston team is in the area, they might have to play in a suburb.


----------



## Cacciaguida

JDogindy said:


> Problem with Houston is that the only major arena in the area is the Toyota Center, and Les Alexander killed the Aeros on purpose. He made it clear that either an NHL team plays there, or no team plays there. If an ECHL Houston team is in the area, they might have to play in a suburb.




I know that, but team had no business moving otherwise. Why he didn't just buy the team is beyond me, are concerts and live events that worth it? I mean San Antonio can make it work. And if a NHL team opens up he can just promote the Areos. 

All he's done is hurt Houston's chances. It's not like Houston is in the currently running for an NHL team anyways, if the Areos were around they actually could be. And he'd be terrible owner if this is how he treats customers.

Is there really no other ice surfaces in that entire city that can house roughly 3500 people?  It's really just a shame through and through. Someone needs to build a second arena there just to spite this guy.

And the bigger the city, the higher level it should play, in most cases at least imo. We might start to see AHL teams in cities closer to their pro affiliate, Rockford, Charlotte, Providence, Grand Rapids; hardcore minor markets Hersey, Rosemont (Chicago), Rochester, St. John's. Or in the large metropolitan areas without pro teams. i.e. San Diego, Cleveland, Milwaukee.

I foresee cities like Utica, Albany, Bridgeport (I'd prefer Hartford to stay) and Portland, eventually being pushed down in ECHL or USHL. Maybe Portland could join the QMJHL? The AHL has outgrown markets like these and the ECHL can jump on this to fill the need.


----------



## Cacciaguida

jason2020 said:


> Cornwall is a hour from both Ottawa and Montreal some would say this would be the perfect spot for Echl team.




I'd prefer the OHL expanding there and Belleville if they would just renovate their arenas! North Bay got a team back, it's not impossible!

Long live the Royals!


----------



## Clinton Comets EHL

Cacciaguida said:


> I know that, but team had no business moving otherwise. Why he didn't just buy the team is beyond me, are concerts and live events that worth it? I mean San Antonio can make it work. And if a NHL team opens up he can just promote the Areos.
> 
> All he's done is hurt Houston's chances. It's not like Houston is in the currently running for an NHL team anyways, if the Areos were around they actually could be. And he'd be terrible owner if this is how he treats customers.
> 
> Is there really no other ice surfaces in that entire city that can house roughly 3500 people?  It's really just a shame through and through. Someone needs to build a second arena there just to spite this guy.
> 
> And the bigger the city, the higher level it should play, in most cases at least imo. We might start to see AHL teams in cities closer to their pro affiliate, Rockford, Charlotte, Providence, Grand Rapids; hardcore minor markets Hersey, Rosemont (Chicago), Rochester, St. John's. Or in the large metropolitan areas without pro teams. i.e. San Diego, Cleveland, Milwaukee.
> 
> I foresee cities like Utica, Albany, Bridgeport (I'd prefer Hartford to stay) and Portland, eventually being pushed down in ECHL or USHL. Maybe Portland could join the QMJHL? The AHL has outgrown markets like these and the ECHL can jump on this to fill the need.





Ummmmm, SD, Cleveland and Milwaukee all have teams in the AHL. 

Your post makes no sense at all.


----------



## Cacciaguida

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> how do we know Monumental hasn't explored Baltimore, the difference is do they want to own their affiliate and or have another arena to operate within their footprint, when they already run the Patriot Center. the way Washington's philosophy is it doesn't appear that's an option even for a return to the E
> 
> Peoria wasn't pushed out, they elected not to renew their lease there, and the franchise was sold to Utica/Vancouver by the Blues, who replaced the Canucks in Rosemont, IL, despite the Chicago moniker, that's my pet peeve, if you don't play in the city don't claim it as your city.
> 
> Norfolk only was pushed because Chicago wanted a place for its affiliate, and the Admirals also at the time were a Capitals affiliate when they were promoted... SAME w/ Richmond, arena issues and the issues surrounding Richmond as a sports market overall are holding that market back, besides the Renegades history didn't materialize in the SPHL, AS IT had been when both Norfolk and Richmond were head to head, which is why the Admirals survived the transfer until this season




I imagine the operating costs of the AHL were too much for Peoria to justify keeping the team. The NHL should help pay for their minor league teams like baseball does. 

No idea why they'd prefer the SPHL to the ECHL, maybe they're waiting a better opportunity?

Also: 
http://www.norfolkadmirals.com/release_story1.php?id=3414


----------



## Cacciaguida

6768clintoncomets575 said:


> Ummmmm, SD, Cleveland and Milwaukee all have teams in the AHL.
> 
> Your post makes no sense at all.




It does make sense... by pro I meant NHL, not minor league. And I don't think those markets are leaving anytime soon, though SD could flop, honestly I don't think Anaheim will drop them even then. Most AHL teams run on a deficit due to player salaries and costly travel.

even if their affiliates move (Colorado being most likely) I definitely see someone jumping in and keeping them around. But then again, I thought Houston was safe... 

Hamilton would have been in the same boat, but I saw the writing on the wall with Hamilton snapping up an OHL team with potential NHL expansion afloat and Montreal wanting an affiliate closer to home.


----------



## Artie Fufkin

Cacciaguida said:


> I know that, but team had no business moving otherwise. Why he didn't just buy the team is beyond me, are concerts and live events that worth it? I mean San Antonio can make it work. And if a NHL team opens up he can just promote the Areos.




Yes, concerts and live events are worth it. There was a big difference between Houston and San Antonio. The San Antonio Spurs own the AHL Rampage team, the Houston Rockets did not own the Aeros.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Cacciaguida said:


> I imagine the operating costs of the AHL were too much for Peoria to justify keeping the team. The NHL should help pay for their minor league teams like baseball does.
> 
> No idea why they'd prefer the SPHL to the ECHL, maybe they're waiting a better opportunity?
> 
> Also:
> http://www.norfolkadmirals.com/release_story1.php?id=3414




St. Louis sold Peoria to Vancouver, just as they did when they pulled out of Worcester to go to Peoria, when the Rosemont deal opened up... the AHL Franchises do pay the affiliation agreement, so I'm not sure where you're getting that statement from... the Rivermen were gone and you don't have a LEASE AGREEEMENT, with an arena, it doesn't matter whether you're affiliated or not at our level, the NHL Teams generally are not involved in AHL Lease agreements, they are advised/informed of such agreements.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Cacciaguida said:


> It does make sense... by pro I meant NHL, not minor league. And I don't think those markets are leaving anytime soon, though SD could flop, honestly I don't think Anaheim will drop them even then. Most AHL teams run on a deficit due to player salaries and costly travel.
> 
> even if their affiliates move (Colorado being most likely) I definitely see someone jumping in and keeping them around. But then again, I thought Houston was safe...
> 
> Hamilton would have been in the same boat, but I saw the writing on the wall with Hamilton snapping up an OHL team with potential NHL expansion afloat and Montreal wanting an affiliate closer to home.




the AHL IS A PRO LEAGUE, and Hershey, fyi, is only younger than the original 6 NHL Clubs, Cacciaguida.

you need to research how our league structure works before you generalize how it operates.


----------



## SemireliableSource

Cacciaguida, what you essentially said was, "by 'pro' I didn't mean pro."

With regard to your comment about the Leafs needing to wake up and affiliate with Brampton, ... what?! 

How does it benefit the Leafs in the slightest? MLSE could print money so they don't need the affiliate fees. It's not like the Leafs need to further entrench themselves in the market. The only benefit in that arrangement would be had by Brampton and not the Leafs.


----------



## Jackets Woodchuck

FrancoRussianAlaskan said:


> Cacciaguida, what you essentially said was, "by 'pro' I didn't mean pro."
> 
> With regard to your comment about the Leafs needing to wake up and affiliate with Brampton, ... what?!
> 
> How does it benefit the Leafs in the slightest? MLSE could print money so they don't need the affiliate fees. It's not like the Leafs need to further entrench themselves in the market. The only benefit in that arrangement would be had by Brampton and not the Leafs.




Many people use "pro" to mean major league.

They also use "major league" to mean major sport.

To them amateur has nothing to do with being paid, it means not playing at the top level of a sport.

To them all levels of less popular sports are minor league, even the highest one.

Yeah, it annoys me too.


----------



## Clinton Comets EHL

Cacciaguida said:


> It does make sense... by pro I meant NHL, not minor league. And I don't think those markets are leaving anytime soon, though SD could flop, honestly I don't think Anaheim will drop them even then. Most AHL teams run on a deficit due to player salaries and costly travel.
> 
> even if their affiliates move (Colorado being most likely) I definitely see someone jumping in and keeping them around. But then again, I thought Houston was safe...
> 
> Hamilton would have been in the same boat, but I saw the writing on the wall with Hamilton snapping up an OHL team with potential NHL expansion afloat and Montreal wanting an affiliate closer to home.




Ok, still trying to figure original post out.


----------



## mk80

As far as my Houston idea, I remember there was a proposal to build a new minor league arena tacked onto I think a development for an amusement park. But I can't find anything to back up that statement. If that was the case, that's the ticket Houston needs, an arena separate from the Rockets.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

is any hope that the minor league hockey world could start to fill up the northern states like Wyoming North Dakota or Montana and Washington


----------



## crobro

Cincinnati

Billings Montana 

San Diego 

Spokane

Seattle/Tacoma


----------



## My Cozen Dylan

crobro said:


> Cincinnati
> 
> Billings Montana
> 
> San Diego
> 
> Spokane
> 
> Seattle/Tacoma




Cincinnati has ECHL, San Diego has AHL, Seattle and Spokane have WHL.

And Billings is Billings.


----------



## Puck possession wins

What about Prescott Arizona. Where the Arizona Sundogs played before the CHL merged with the ECHL.

The team was making a good profit and has a viable arena in Tim's Toyota Center


----------



## Artie Fufkin

Puck possession wins said:


> What about Prescott Arizona. Where the Arizona Sundogs played before the CHL merged with the ECHL.
> 
> The team was making a good profit and has a viable arena in Tim's Toyota Center




The team ceased operations because it wasn't making any money. They were begging people to buy season tickets the last couple of years. 

The arena is just as bad. The event center has lost money every year it has been open.


----------



## Paul Bunyan

Duluth would be pretty cool, minus the fact they'd likely need a new rink, as I doubt they'd want to play at AMSOIL Arena, but maybe they would. 

With the Wild already having AHL and ECHL teams in "Wild territory" I don't think it ever happens though.


----------



## PCSPounder

Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> is any hope that the minor league hockey world could start to fill up the northern states like Wyoming North Dakota or Montana and Washington




You're that guy that looks at the map and sees empty states, no? 

The ECHL works better in metro areas with the population of all of Wyoming... or all of North Dakota. Drive those states sometime. That should tell you something. For a winter sport, you need a decent urban population, or at least the cache the University of North Dakota has.

Now Billings? They're short of the needed population, but not by that much. With their relative isolation, I think it's a decent opportunity. Even more helpful is that it's not that far from Rapid City (at least within a Western perspective). It's still a risk. I think downsizing their arena would help.


----------



## crobro

Billings Montana in the Fort macmurray of the states .

High incomes due to being the hub for the fracking industry


----------



## mk80

Those northern states are better suited for junior hockey. I know some of the towns and cities in those areas have NAHL, NA3HL, WSHL, etc. but not all that suited for minor pro hockey. Casper couldn't get a CHL franchise off the ground, and even then they'd probably be toward the bottom half of attendance anyway.

I think one franchise we will see the ECHL move into Utica after the Canucks move their AHL operations west. 

Or perhaps in a twist of fate Albany. I could see a scenario where the Devils move into the Utica as a reincarnated Utica Devils, as I believe Utica is ahead of Albany in terms of attendance. It would be nice maybe if the River Rats came back as an ECHL version.


----------



## Clinton Comets EHL

mk80 said:


> Those northern states are better suited for junior hockey. I know some of the towns and cities in those areas have NAHL, NA3HL, WSHL, etc. but not all that suited for minor pro hockey. Casper couldn't get a CHL franchise off the ground, and even then they'd probably be toward the bottom half of attendance anyway.
> 
> I think one franchise we will see the ECHL move into Utica after the Canucks move their AHL operations west.
> 
> Or perhaps in a twist of fate Albany. I could see a scenario where the Devils move into the Utica as a reincarnated Utica Devils, as I believe Utica is ahead of Albany in terms of attendance. It would be nice maybe if the River Rats came back as an ECHL version.




God, I hope not.


----------



## Michael Smitley

OK City?


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

OKC is likely done, because you'll need an owner and a franchise because Prodigal has run its course as an owner/operator between the Blazers and the Oiler-owned Barons.


----------



## Off da post and in

CHRDANHUTCH said:


> OKC is likely done, because you'll need an owner and a franchise because Prodigal has run its course as an owner/operator between the Blazers and the Oiler-owned Barons.




OKC is a big enough market to attract a league and ownership group in the near future.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

Off da post and in said:


> OKC is a big enough market to attract a league and ownership group in the near future.




not sure of that, tbth, I think Prodigal has run its course, and the popularity of the Thunder seems to make two arenas a luxury, but not financially worth it.


----------



## Woo Hockey

What do you guys think about a team in Worcester?

Everyone here is pulling for a Boston Bruins affiliated ECHL team here to replace the departing Worcester Sharks, and is something everyone seems to think it could work well here. It's been proven that when a Bruins affiliated team plays here vs the Worcester team, more people attend the games as they know it's a Bruins' team.


----------



## JungleJON

It would be nice if someone would step up as far as ownership, but the questions is - is their a local person(s) willing to do so?




ItsNotDylan said:


> What do you guys think about a team in Worcester?
> 
> Everyone here is pulling for a Boston Bruins affiliated ECHL team here to replace the departing Worcester Sharks, and is something everyone seems to think it could work well here. It's been proven that when a Bruins affiliated team plays here vs the Worcester team, more people attend the games as they know it's a Bruins' team.


----------



## CHRDANHUTCH

SenorChifles said:


> It would be nice if someone would step up as far as ownership, but the questions is - is their a local person(s) willing to do so?




rumor has the Providence owner looking at it, but the way the E is structured, would they stay long-term, because of the year to year renewal affiliation.


----------



## Woo Hockey

SenorChifles said:


> It would be nice if someone would step up as far as ownership, but the questions is - is their a local person(s) willing to do so?






CHRDANHUTCH said:


> rumor has the Providence owner looking at it, but the way the E is structured, would they stay long-term, because of the year to year renewal affiliation.




There has to be a team willing to put their affiliation here before anything else can be done. The likelihood of the Providence Bruins moving here is pretty slim, as they have been very successful in the AHL and are among the top 3 in the league in terms of attendance with around 8,000 people attending on average. Moving an ECHL team for The Boston Bruins to Worcester makes sense as their three teams would then be within a reasonable distance from each other in New England. As the current Bruins ECHL team is in South Carolina and is also affiliated with the Washington Capitals, it would make sense to let those two stay affiliated with each other and have a new team created in Worcester (as there are 2 spots for new teams). 

As for any ownerships or ownership groups, it would make sense to have it local, possibly with the city being a part of the group as they are with a local baseball team and they own the hockey arena in the city. Of course, this would come after something is approved by the league along with a possible affiliation. 

As an avid hockey fan and someone involved with the social media side of some pages advocating for a new Worcester team, I can say that a new team in Worcester would definitely benefit the city and all the fans who have stuck around from when we lost our beloved IceCats. I can only provide strong speculation on something that _may_ happen in either next year or the year after. There is nothing set in stone but teams have contacted the arena after it was announced the Worcester Sharks were leaving but there hasn't been any progress on bringing a new team here. As it may not seem likely for a team to move here next year, things could change in a moment's notice as the league has been looking to have 30 teams and are currently at 28 for the next season. In order for a team to move here, it needs to make sense for both their organization and for the city officials / the arena.


----------



## Nightsquad

mk80 said:


> Those northern states are better suited for junior hockey. I know some of the towns and cities in those areas have NAHL, NA3HL, WSHL, etc. but not all that suited for minor pro hockey. Casper couldn't get a CHL franchise off the ground, and even then they'd probably be toward the bottom half of attendance anyway.
> 
> I think one franchise we will see the ECHL move into Utica after the Canucks move their AHL operations west.
> 
> Or perhaps in a twist of fate Albany. I could see a scenario where the Devils move into the Utica as a reincarnated Utica Devils, as I believe Utica is ahead of Albany in terms of attendance. It would be nice maybe if the River Rats came back as an ECHL version.




Utica is only barely ahead in attendance in Albany, few hundred per game, not even by a thousand. AHL in Utica is still a novelty, and the team is doing very well. If the teams the Devils have placed in Albany over the last decade and a half called Utica home I would bet the hockey smart CNY fanbase would have run them out of town. If Albany was a NY Rangers farm team I doubt we would even entertain this conversation. The Rangers farm team in Albany would be drawing just as good, if not much better then what the Wolfpack currently draw. Problem with Albany is what the Devils have done to the game of hockey. I have relatives in nearby Clinton Park NY just north of Albany. The Rangers get local media coverage, the Devils barely advertise their games, and only on occasions does the local sports radio stations broadcast some of their away games, and the Devils have publicly acknowledged they are not in Albany to win championships in the AHL but make Stanley Cup contenders down in New Jersey. The fact the town draws over 3000 fans per game is actually impressive. Probably could be 4500 to 5000 fans per game if they had an organization that really cared and put in an effort instead of going through the motions and icing a glorified scrimmage squad club.


----------



## Cacciaguida

Nightsquad said:


> Utica is only barely ahead in attendance in Albany, few hundred per game, not even by a thousand. AHL in Utica is still a novelty, and the team is doing very well. If the teams the Devils have placed in Albany over the last decade and a half called Utica home I would bet the hockey smart CNY fanbase would have run them out of town. If Albany was a NY Rangers farm team I doubt we would even entertain this conversation. The Rangers farm team in Albany would be drawing just as good, if not much better then what the Wolfpack currently draw. Problem with Albany is what the Devils have done to the game of hockey. I have relatives in nearby Clinton Park NY just north of Albany. The Rangers get local media coverage, the Devils barely advertise their games, and only on occasions does the local sports radio stations broadcast some of their away games, and the Devils have publicly acknowledged they are not in Albany to win championships in the AHL but make Stanley Cup contenders down in New Jersey. The fact the town draws over 3000 fans per game is actually impressive. Probably could be 4500 to 5000 fans per game if they had an organization that really cared and put in an effort instead of going through the motions and icing a glorified scrimmage squad club.




which doesn't make sense, wouldn't you want your players to win at all levels, just to develop a winning culture? 

NJ keeps switching markets, tearing down old identities, under-marketing and mismanaging their affiliates. it's like they have trust issues or something.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

The way its looking . Its gonna take a couple of years to settle the sea. With all Nhl teams trying to move their affiliates closer. I see alot of movement in the future. Maybe even saving some of the Echl franchise that are in trouble by bringing the affiliated teams closer.


----------



## PCSPounder

ItsNotDylan said:


> What do you guys think about a team in Worcester?
> 
> Everyone here is pulling for a Boston Bruins affiliated ECHL team here to replace the departing Worcester Sharks, and is something everyone seems to think it could work well here. It's been proven that when a Bruins affiliated team plays here vs the Worcester team, more people attend the games as they know it's a Bruins' team.




Cheesy theory of the day: if the Bruins aren't going to use Worcester, and if the ECHL is the eventual goal, you're better off not having hockey there for... oh...

...3 years? 5? 10?

I'm making a guess that fans in cities who just lost AHL and got ECHL will turn on those ECHL teams. That's a train that, once on the tracks, is pretty much impossible to stop. Those franchises will die (maybe Manchester will get saved somehow).

If you make "space" and create a pent-up demand for "any hockey at all," then the ECHL franchise you're seeking to own will be better off.


----------



## zetajerk

Cacciaguida said:


> which doesn't make sense, wouldn't you want your players to win at all levels, just to develop a winning culture?
> 
> NJ keeps switching markets, tearing down old identities, under-marketing and mismanaging their affiliates. it's like they have trust issues or something.




I don't get it either. What better way is there to give your prospects confidence than to win at the AAA level? The Times Union Center is a great building. It would be nice if it had a tenant that wanted the public's enthusiasm.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

SenorChifles said:


> I would add Birmingham, Greensboro and Bossier Shreveport to the list.




Bloomington was a joke.



Cacciaguida said:


> I'd prefer the OHL expanding there and Belleville if they would just renovate their arenas! North Bay got a team back, it's not impossible!
> 
> Long live the Royals!




Wouldn't say the Royals are in amazing health. A couple years ago I forget exactly what but something involving their county purchased half the team because I guess someone was interested in purchasing the team and moving it to Baltimore I believe it was.



Royalsflagrunner77 said:


> Yes the war memorial is still there they have junior team there now but i would love to see a E team there again




The War Memorial is so outdated its not even funny. Just because its there doesn't mean its viable.

Even so for the big stink they made of it I'm not sure Johnstown would want it back. The E isn't the E they are used to. Hell the E now isn't even the E they left. Its changed a lot. Personally the product is....declining in ways.



JDogindy said:


> Understandable, but all three have had teams over the years, and they all fizzled out in a few years.
> 
> I'd argue more for a Lowell or New Haven.




New Haven had a go...flopped.


----------



## Chevy Cheveldae

jason2020 said:


> Toronto area is not a good hockey market out it this way there are jr a teams that draw better then minor pro teams do in the Gta.




Agreed, i once went to a Marlies game but asked a guy in the crowd why the it was such low attendance. His answer was simple: There are no hockey fans in Toronto, just Leafs fans..


----------



## CJNewman

Chevy Cheveldae said:


> Agreed, i once went to a Marlies game but asked a guy in the crowd why the it was such low attendance. His answer was simple: There are no hockey fans in Toronto, just Leafs fans..




I had that same experience in Toronto when I went to a Marlies game up there earlier this season.


----------



## Royalsflagrunner77

Sports Enthusiast said:


> Bloomington was a joke.
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't say the Royals are in amazing health. A couple years ago I forget exactly what but something involving their county purchased half the team because I guess someone was interested in purchasing the team and moving it to Baltimore I believe it was.
> 
> 
> 
> The War Memorial is so outdated its not even funny. Just because its there doesn't mean its viable.
> 
> Even so for the big stink they made of it I'm not sure Johnstown would want it back. The E isn't the E they are used to. Hell the E now isn't even the E they left. Its changed a lot. Personally the product is....declining in ways.
> 
> 
> 
> New Haven had a go...flopped.




That is true that the city bought the Royals to keep it there. But There is no denying that since the new owner took over and the royals are now affiliated with the flyers . there has been a dramatic increase in attendance this year . Now not only hardcore fans but the casual fan base in the city is recognizing the royals . it also helps that are other sports team are affiliated with philly also. Plus allentown fans have been making the treck down as well.


----------



## JDogindy

Chevy Cheveldae said:


> Agreed, i once went to a Marlies game but asked a guy in the crowd why the it was such low attendance. His answer was simple: There are no hockey fans in Toronto, just Leafs fans..




Then why in God's name do people want a second (or first, as the joke goes) NHL team if they don't wanna support the AHL team, the ECHL team, or the OHL teams?


----------



## mk80

Nightsquad said:


> Utica is only barely ahead in attendance in Albany, few hundred per game, not even by a thousand. AHL in Utica is still a novelty, and the team is doing very well. If the teams the Devils have placed in Albany over the last decade and a half called Utica home I would bet the hockey smart CNY fanbase would have run them out of town. If Albany was a NY Rangers farm team I doubt we would even entertain this conversation. The Rangers farm team in Albany would be drawing just as good, if not much better then what the Wolfpack currently draw. Problem with Albany is what the Devils have done to the game of hockey. I have relatives in nearby Clinton Park NY just north of Albany. The Rangers get local media coverage, the Devils barely advertise their games, and only on occasions does the local sports radio stations broadcast some of their away games, and the Devils have publicly acknowledged they are not in Albany to win championships in the AHL but make Stanley Cup contenders down in New Jersey. The fact the town draws over 3000 fans per game is actually impressive. Probably could be 4500 to 5000 fans per game if they had an organization that really cared and put in an effort instead of going through the motions and icing a glorified scrimmage squad club.




Thats the big issue with NJ is that they don't care to run the franchise as a whole, they only care to stash players. However if they want to develope Stanley Cup contenders they should be focused on winning at the AHL level to get prospects playoff experience. In all honesty I've felt for years they'd be better off allowing an idependent owner to run things but I don't see them ever giving up their total control of things.


----------



## SemireliableSource

JDogindy said:


> Then why in God's name do people want a second (or first, as the joke goes) NHL team if they don't wanna support the AHL team, the ECHL team, or the OHL teams?




Most markets, especially those on the stuck up side, will embrace the majors far before they settle for a minor league team. For a lot of people it's a status thing of being see at the game.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Leafs fans aren't even that great. Watch a game. More suits than anything. Would also say MSG is the most overrated arena ever. Its never loud unless their team is winning a big game. They are only then into the games.


----------



## jason2020

Chevy Cheveldae said:


> Agreed, i once went to a Marlies game but asked a guy in the crowd why the it was such low attendance. His answer was simple: There are no hockey fans in Toronto, just Leafs fans..




What drives me crazy is Leaf fans are so cocky they think all of there hockey teams get great support.


----------



## MiamiHockey

Chevy Cheveldae said:


> Agreed, i once went to a Marlies game but asked a guy in the crowd why the it was such low attendance. His answer was simple: There are no hockey fans in Toronto, just Leafs fans..




The problem is the location of the arena. The Marlies are supposed to be a family-friendly alternative, but the Ricoh Centre is located downtown. How many families live downtown? And I can't even imagine trying to get there for a weeknight game. Not a viable option for families.


----------



## MiamiHockey

Sports Enthusiast said:


> Leafs fans aren't even that great. Watch a game. More suits than anything. Would also say MSG is the most overrated arena ever. Its never loud unless their team is winning a big game. They are only then into the games.




You're confusing Leafs fans with those who attend games at the ACC.

The ACC prices are outrageous, and far beyond the ability of regular Leafs fans to afford.

So, where do regular Leafs' fans go to see their team play? Buffalo, Florida, Tampa, and anywhere else the Leafs are traveling where the prices are below $200.

The Leafs have extremely loyal fans ... you just need to travel to Buffalo or Miami to see them at an actual Leafs game.


----------



## jason2020

MiamiHockey said:


> You're confusing Leafs fans with those who attend games at the ACC.
> 
> The ACC prices are outrageous, and far beyond the ability of regular Leafs fans to afford.
> 
> So, where do regular Leafs' fans go to see their team play? Buffalo, Florida, Tampa, and anywhere else the Leafs are traveling where the prices are below $200.
> 
> The Leafs have extremely loyal fans ... you just need to travel to Buffalo or Miami to see them at an actual Leafs game.




The point is Toronto is not a hockey market.


----------



## MiamiHockey

jason2020 said:


> The point is Toronto is not a hockey market.




As compared to what? What city is a hockey market, by your definition?

Do yourself a favour and Google "GTHL" - it's the world's largest hockey league, and it's in Toronto. Within the GTA you have over 30,000 kids participating in Minor Hockey, dozens of arenas and adult leagues, and multiple Jr A franchises and college teams. A conservative estimate would be that 100,000 to 200,000 Torontonians play hockey at some level. But, I suppose that's not enough to qualify as a "hockey market" ?

Perhaps it would be a "hockey market" if you include nearby cities like Guelph, Kitchener, Barrie, Hamilton, and Oshawa, all of which provide strong support for Major Junior / AHL teams.

The reality is this: Torontonians don't want to fight traffic and drive 40+ minutes to the Ricoh Centre to watch the Marlies play. That does not mean it's not a hockey market, it just means that they don't want to fight traffic to watch the Marlies play because the arena is not conveniently located for the target market: families who live in the suburbs.


----------



## jason2020

MiamiHockey said:


> As compared to what? What city is a hockey market, by your definition?
> 
> Do yourself a favour and Google "GTHL" - it's the world's largest hockey league, and it's in Toronto. Within the GTA you have over 30,000 kids participating in Minor Hockey, dozens of arenas and adult leagues, and multiple Jr A franchises and college teams. A conservative estimate would be that 100,000 to 200,000 Torontonians play hockey at some level. But, I suppose that's not enough to qualify as a "hockey market" ?
> 
> Perhaps it would be a "hockey market" if you include nearby cities like Guelph, Kitchener, Barrie, Hamilton, and Oshawa, all of which provide strong support for Major Junior / AHL teams.
> 
> The reality is this: Torontonians don't want to fight traffic and drive 40+ minutes to the Ricoh Centre to watch the Marlies play. That does not mean it's not a hockey market, it just means that they don't want to fight traffic to watch the Marlies play because the arena is not conveniently located for the target market: families who live in the suburbs.





Awful support for major jr not great support for Ahl/Echl even the World juniors had issues for the first round games yet just because lots play hockey its the world best hockey market sorry that makes no sense.


----------



## MiamiHockey

jason2020 said:


> Awful support for major jr not great support for Ahl/Echl even the World juniors had issues for the first round games yet just because lots play hockey its the world best hockey market sorry that makes no sense.




So, by your logic, it makes "no sense" to argue that that a metropolitan area that has (1) the most valuable franchise in the NHL, (2) the NHL team that has the league's highest ticket prices yet still sells out, fans that gather outdoors in the thousands to watch a 1st Round Leafs playoff game on a giant screen, and (3) the world's largest hockey league is a hockey market? What is your definition of a hockey market, then? 

You can't answer that, can you?


----------



## jason2020

MiamiHockey said:


> So, by your logic, it makes "no sense" to argue that that a metropolitan area that has (1) the most valuable franchise in the NHL, (2) the NHL team that has the league's highest ticket prices yet still sells out, fans that gather outdoors in the thousands to watch a 1st Round Leafs playoff game on a giant screen, and (3) the world's largest hockey league is a hockey market? What is your definition of a hockey market, then?
> 
> You can't answer that, can you?




There is no question Toronto is the worlds best Nhl market but when you have poor attendance for Ohl/Ahl/Echl and all non Leafs games that's not a hockey market to be that you support all level of hockey


----------



## MiamiHockey

jason2020 said:


> There is no question Toronto is the worlds best Nhl market but when you have poor attendance for Ohl/Ahl/Echl and all non Leafs games that's not a hockey market to be that you support all level of hockey




It's drawing a pretty fine line to suggest that Toronto is not a market that supports all levels of hockey. The GTA really stretches to include Oshawa, Hamilton, Guelph, and arguably Barrie and Kitchener-Waterloo. Those markets have all demonstrated their strong support for OHL / AHL franchises.

And, the St Michael's Majors actually had good attendance at their arena in Toronto ... the problem was that it was a high school arena, not an OHL arena.

As for Brampton and Mississauga ... they have TERRIBLE arena locations that are nowhere remotely close to the city centres or public transit.


----------

