# German Football Part III



## bluesfan94

It finally started annoying me.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

I misspoke. 

Goetze might not be beginning full training the first day of the season, if I read into his instagram post correctly.

But still, he should be ready for game 1. They've been saying he would be. Occasionally some players don't participate full the first few days.


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## BergyDGD

I started following FC St. Pauli in Bundesliga 2. Really cool seeing their links within the punk rock scene and the philosophy of the club.


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## Deficient Mode

Guerreiro out 3-4 months now too after his ankle surgery. So glad Portugal dragged him along to a Mickey Mouse tournament - where he exacerbated his injury - and then had him wait another couple of weeks to get an operation.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Guerreiro out 3-4 months now too after his ankle surgery. So glad Portugal dragged him along to a Mickey Mouse tournament - where he exacerbated his injury - and then had him wait another couple of weeks to get an operation.




I had pencilled him in as a starter next to Dahoud until Weigl returns. Now we probably gotta start Castro or both of Goetze and Kagawa. Can't mess around starting Sahin, Rode, Bender in CM. Maybe Burnic gets a run in CM now.


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## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I had pencilled him in as a starter next to Dahoud until Weigl returns. Now we probably gotta start Castro or both of Goetze and Kagawa. Can't mess around starting Sahin, Rode, Bender in CM. Maybe Burnic gets a run in CM now.




Burnic has been loaned to Stuttgart.

Dahoud could play as the deeper DM with Castro and GÃ¶tze above him. Kagawa and Merino could rotate in as well. That could work against inferior opponents even if it's not ideal. Fortunately they don't have any super difficult fixtures before Weigl is on track to return, unless you count the Supercup.


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## WhiskeySeven*

How will Schalke fare next season?


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## Deficient Mode

WhiskeySeven said:


> How will Schalke fare next season?




Honestly I could see them finishing much higher. Their new manager seems pretty good from the little I've heard and read, and they'll get a boost from not having European competition to tire them out. The team on paper is still way better than 10th.


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## Just Win

Bochum just fired Verbeek and will most likely hire Lotte's Atalan as replacement. Weird timing.


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## Eye of Ra

BVB should play 3-5-2 with Guerrio injured.

Burki
Bartra - Sokratis - Toprak
GÃ¶tze - Dahoud - Weigl - Passlack - DembÃ©lÃ©
Reus - Aubameyang


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## Wee Baby Seamus

Eye of Ra said:


> BVB should play 3-5-2 with Guerrio injured.
> 
> Burki
> Bartra - Sokratis - Toprak
> GÃ¶tze - Dahoud - Weigl - Passlack - DembÃ©lÃ©
> Reus - Aubameyang




1. Reus and Weigl will both be out for the start of the season; Reus won't be back until well after Guerreiro is. 
2. Gotze and Dembele as wing-backs? Prepare to get shredded out wide. 
3. Has Passlack ever played CM before? Genuine question, I've only known him as a right back.


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## WhiskeySeven*

Deficient Mode said:


> Honestly I could see them finishing much higher. Their new manager seems pretty good from the little I've heard and read, and they'll get a boost from not having European competition to tire them out. The team on paper is still way better than 10th.



Nastasic isn't going anywhere, then?

I hope Goretzka has a monster year (and then joins that small team south east in Bavaria that could really use him). I've always liked Schalke, will pay closer attention this year.


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## Cin

Zagadou is already impressing me tremendously. Dude is going to be an incredible player.


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## Bure80

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> 1. Reus and Weigl will both be out for the start of the season; Reus won't be back until well after Guerreiro is.
> 2. Gotze and Dembele as wing-backs? Prepare to get shredded out wide.
> 3. Has Passlack ever played CM before? Genuine question, I've only known him as a right back.





Passlack played his whole youth career as CM. He had 17 goals and 18 assists in 24 games in the Youth Bundesliga


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## cgf

He played primarily as a winger at the u19s and was always a winger with the u17 youth team *shrug* Passlack should play on the wing, and I suspect that's what was meant...Weigl, Dahoud, & Gotze in the middle, Passlack & Dembele on the wings.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

Yeah, thats not gonna be the lineup, especially considering two of those players are injured. 

That was a terrible performance today. WTF is Subotic doing on this team? Sell immediately. Zagadou should not be playing LB, so crazy. Durm as a CM. WTF again. 

A lot of players looked really bad today. Liked Toprak, Bartra and Schmelzer. Besides that, no.

Its preseason and all, but anytime you lose to a fourth division team, it deserves a lot of criticism.


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## TheMoreYouKnow

BergyDGD said:


> I started following FC St. Pauli in Bundesliga 2. Really cool seeing their links within the punk rock scene and the philosophy of the club.




Yeah and how their ultras helped set their own city on fire. Real cool.


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## cgf

If Freiburg bring Kaputska in on a permanent I'm going to love a lot of their young talent. Soyuncu, Kaputska, Kempf, Lienhart, Meffert, Stenzel, Sierro, Haberer, Bulut


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## Pavel Buchnevich

Subotic has to go right away. Dude's awful. Don't waste any more preseason minutes on him. 

Schurrle and Rode shouldn't be far behind him out the door. For me, Mor comes before Schurrle this season. Mor had a good game today.

Was nice to see Goetze back on the field. Looked a little rusty, but you can tell the quality. He was playing some passes that most players don't think to play.


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## Bon Esprit

I'd take Subotic. Hannover 96 needs a CB and he'd be a good fit here.

SchÃ¼rrle needs to go. That is correct. I dislike the player (not the human being) with a passion. I never understood why Dortmund signed Rode tbh.


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## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Subotic has to go right away. Dude's awful. Don't waste any more preseason minutes on him.
> 
> Schurrle and Rode shouldn't be far behind him out the door. For me, Mor comes before Schurrle this season. Mor had a good game today.
> 
> Was nice to see Goetze back on the field. Looked a little rusty, but you can tell the quality. He was playing some passes that most players don't think to play.




Part of the point of preseason is to show off your unwanted players so you can sell them off.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Part of the point of preseason is to show off your unwanted players so you can sell them off.




Agree on Schurrle and Rode, I even saw yesterday that Hamburg had interest in Rode, but playing Subotic is working the opposite way. Any team who might've been interested who watched him probably will now have thought twice about it.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

Paging Evilo, do you read this thread? 

Zagadou is really good, what a terrific signing that was. Not a starter this year, but I can definitely see him developing into a starter in a season or two, and eventually a top class CB. The guy is young, only 18, but he's done well. He wasn't even so bad out of position at LB the other day.


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## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Paging Evilo, do you read this thread?
> 
> Zagadou is really good, what a terrific signing that was. Not a starter this year, but I can definitely see him developing into a starter in a season or two, and eventually a top class CB. The guy is young, only 18, but he's done well. He wasn't even so bad out of position at LB the other day.




I'm pretty excited about him. A physical beast already and a pretty skilled footballer as well. He's CB #4 at the moment but if Bosz goes for a 3 or 5 man back line as today he could see a lot of minutes. He's the only left-footed CB on the roster, so he has an advantage in that respect. I doubt Bosz would have any qualms about starting an 18 year old, either.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

Nice performance today. 

Thought Pulisic was excellent, Auba, Bartra and Castro did well, also.


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## Bon Esprit

*2. Bundesliga*

starts today.

I wish every poster who's involved somehow (cgf for example) a good season.

Btw I wish Union Berlin luck vs. Cheater Audi Ingolstadt.


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## cgf

so it begins


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## Jersey Fresh

cgf said:


> so it begins




Reece Oxford off the mark, ,eh?


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## cgf

Jersey Fresh said:


> Reece Oxford off the mark, ,eh?




??? I was celebrating Union's victory over Ingolstadt to kick off their BuLi2 campaign


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## Jersey Fresh

cgf said:


> ??? I was celebrating Union's victory over Ingolstadt to kick off their BuLi2 campaign




Oh haha. Don't know why I thought you were a BMG supporter.


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## cgf

Jersey Fresh said:


> Oh haha. Don't know why I thought you were a BMG supporter.




Oh, gotcha. BMG are my favorite 1st division team so I post about them a lot, especially in the transfer thread, but Union Berlin is in my blood.


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## Nalens Oga

Heidenheim vs Erzgebirge cancelled after 11 minutes cos of this lol:






Also **** you Bundesliga for taking 2. Bundesliga video coverage off the site and youtube.


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## Bon Esprit

Nalens Oga said:


> Heidenheim vs Erzgebirge cancelled after 11 minutes cos of this lol:




I don't understand what's so lol about it. Parts of Germany have serious issues with heavy rainfall for a couple of days now. In the end it's just a frigging football game.

Btw. Only freaks would want to watch a Heidenheim vs. Aue match.


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## TheMoreYouKnow

Withdrawal symptoms I think is the term.


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## Bon Esprit

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Withdrawal symptoms I think is the term.




There's a women's EC somewhere I read. Some like it I hear.


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## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> There's a women's EC somewhere I read. Some like it I hear.




Germany was so poorly coached lol. What a waste.


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## Bon Esprit

According to Bild and other sources Brazzo will become the next sporting director at Bayern.

If true I like it. I thought it would be Linke or even Klose, but Brazzo is s funny guy and definately more polite that Motzki Sammer.


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## Bon Esprit

Unfortnuatly it's a smaller transfer these days, but Holger Badstuber moves from Bayern to Stuttgart. I wish him luck.

In other news: After a possible career ending injury Borussia Dortmund enable 19 yo Scuderi to study sports management. Well done.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

I'm interested to see who Bosz plays at LB against Bayern. 

I don't think it would be wise to play Zagadou out of position in his first pro game against Robben. Bosz mentioned Passlack as an option, I'd play Toprak at LB, even if he's never played it in his career. Only other position that I think is up for grabs right now is who plays in the midfield with Goetze and Dahoud. Depends what Bosz wants out of that position, I'd probably play Castro against Bayern.


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## cgf

Just say f*** it and attack Bayern hard:

Pulisic - Dembele - Auba - Philipp
Gotze
Sahin - Dahoud
Toprak - Bartra - Sokratis

or something between:

Philipp - Auba
Dembele
Pulisic - Dahoud - Gotze - Pisczek*
Toprak - Bartra - Sokratis
&
Philipp - Auba
Pulisic - Dembele - Gotze - Pisczek*
Dahoud
Toprak - Bartra - Sokratis

*Passlack​


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## Pavel Buchnevich

I don't think 3 in the back is a possibility until Schmelzer and Guerreiro return. Bosz plays mostly a 4-3-3, anyway. 

Just hoping for no Rode, and someone at LB who's not gonna be beaten for two or three goals by Robben.


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## jniklast

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I don't think 3 in the back is a possibility until Schmelzer and Guerreiro return. Bosz plays mostly a 4-3-3, anyway.
> 
> Just hoping for no Rode, and someone at LB who's not gonna be beaten for two or three goals by Robben.




Robben is injured, isn't he? Anyway, Bosz also mentioned Beste as an option, but if I had to guess he will play with a 3 at the back exactly because he has no proven LB available. There's a bit more defensive help for whoever ends up on the left (I'd think Durm or Passlack are most likely) than in a 4-3-3 although I expect that to be the formation going forward.


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## Deficient Mode

Both of these teams have been really bad in preseason. Supercup is going to be interesting.


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## Bon Esprit

The Union Berlin-Holstein Kiel game must be a fun to watch.


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## Savant

How is Hoffenheim doing without Sule and Rudy?


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## Bon Esprit

Savant said:


> How is Hoffenheim doing without Sule and Rudy?




Season starts in a couple of weeks, Liverpool might kill them.

edit:

Forgot, they got Gnabry from Bayern on loan. Doesn't change my opinion. Liverpool will eat them alive.


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## cgf

jniklast said:


> Robben is injured, isn't he? Anyway, Bosz also mentioned Beste as an option, but if I had to guess he will play with a 3 at the back exactly because he has no proven LB available. There's a bit more defensive help for whoever ends up on the left (I'd think Durm or Passlack are most likely) than in a 4-3-3 although I expect that to be the formation going forward.




Beste can not defend



Bon Esprit said:


> The Union Berlin-Holstein Kiel game must be a fun to watch.




Not the kind of opening 30 minutes you want defensively, but 2 games, 2 wins


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## Pavel Buchnevich

If the team did not think Beste would be good enough to open preseason with the first team, he shouldn't even be an option at this point in the season. Thats just searching way too deep on the depth chart. Beste isn't going to be a Dortmund first team player.

And I don't think our U-19's have that many eventual options for the first team, anyway. I like Kilian, I think he might've been with the first team in preseason, if we didn't have a trillion CB's with the first team in preseason, already. Maybe next season or for the second half of the season. Kopacz was the only player promoted for preseason who I thought had first team potential, but he's not really an immediate option. Maybe he tears it up this season with the 19's, and then goes out on loan. I'd say its an outside chance he might be a Dortmund player. Logjam at the positions he plays, also. Kehr looks to be a good player, but how will he be after he returns from that injury? Unbehaun is the star of the academy, besides Moukoko, but Moukoko is way too young to even start discussing towards the first team. I hope that Unbehaun can continue his progress, and be considered for the 3rd GK spot with the first team next season, although he might need two seasons. He can be our answer to Fruchtl in Bavaria.


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## jniklast

Beste did struggle in the U19 defensively, especially on the international stage, that's true. Still he was one of the better players against Bergamo, so right now with very limited options on the left I could actually see him starting in the Supercup at LW with a 3 man backline. We'll see.

Yeah a true Bundesliga level goalie from our academy would be something, last one was Stefan Klos. Though I really don't think we need an "answer" to Fruchtl, whom I expect to top out at the Rensing/Kraft level.


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## Bure80

https://twitter.com/ironicguerreiro/status/893756335166287872/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%23893756335166287872


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## Vipers31

Reschke leaving Bayern has me pretty concerned for the direction of the club at the moment. I mean, it's hard to estimate the impact and influence he had, but I'd guess that he was pretty important. Between HoeneÃŸ coming back, the installation of Salihamidzic (a likeable guy who identifies with the club, but has no tangible qualification whatsoever) and this move, it feels like we might head back towards being a regional stand out rather than a true European elite. Maybe I'm being a bit pessimistic right now, but I don't like what I'm seeing.


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## Bon Esprit

Vipers31 said:


> Reschke leaving Bayern has me pretty concerned for the direction of the club at the moment. I mean, it's hard to estimate the impact and influence he had, but I'd guess that he was pretty important. Between HoeneÃŸ coming back, the installation of Salihamidzic (a likeable guy who identifies with the club, but has no tangible qualification whatsoever) and this move, it feels like we might head back towards being a regional stand out rather than a true European elite. Maybe I'm being a bit pessimistic right now, but I don't like what I'm seeing.




He is 59 yo and at Bayern since 2014. I wouldn't be too concerned.

Kimmich aside, he was responsible for some bad transfers.
Banatia, Kurt, Tasci, Costa, Sanches.

https://www.tz.de/sport/fc-bayern/hintergruende-darum-verlaesst-reschke-fc-bayern-8570742.html

Go after a guy like Schmadtke. He is really good.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

Bure80 said:


> https://twitter.com/ironicguerreiro/status/893756335166287872/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%23893756335166287872




Would take 20M for him.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

Zagadou plays LB, Sahin instead of an attacking midfielder, I'll take their word that Goetze isn't ready to play in this game, the club says he is dealing with back problems. But where's Kagawa? He must be injured to have Subotic taking the final bench spot instead of him.


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## Nalens Oga

What do you use to figure out who's starting on a given weekend? I'd like to try my hand at the Bundesliga Fantasy league from their website but have no idea who would be starting or not for teams outside of my own.


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## Deficient Mode

This game is going to be sloppy.



Nalens Oga said:


> What do you use to figure out who's starting on a given weekend? I'd like to try my hand at the Bundesliga Fantasy league from their website but have no idea who would be starting or not for teams outside of my own.




You just look at injury lists and follow the coach's press conferences I suppose.


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## LemmyUlanov55

Come on Bayern..


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## Nalens Oga

The high line by Dortmund and the defending by fullbacks on both teams is pretty ugly/fun.


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## Adonis Creed

Video assistance turning out to be as useful as the refs behind the goal. A system well used.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

Bayern's goal was offside, VAR got the call wrong. 

Zagadou needs to come out. Deer in a headlights. The back line as a whole has really struggled, they can't play a high line, its all over the place, not a mobile enough back line anyway. Buerki saved them a few times. I'd like the midfield to be better in possession, as we haven't had much of it, although Dahoud is a class player. Nice play by Puli for the goal, but otherwise not much going offensively.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

Must be a joke, Dahoud out for Rode. What


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## jniklast

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Must be a joke, Dahoud out for Rode. What




Dahoud has been in training for not even two weeks, I'm sure that's why he got subbed off. This is just the Supercup after all.


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## Loopy0ne

Does the league split up the American TV $$$ with the teams like in the Prem? 

I am watching this on FOX which is like one of biggest channels. Things are getting better for watching the sport here


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## Savi

Garbage goal in the 89th, thats a surprise

not really tho


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## YNWA14

Not watching the game but it sounds like Rudy is doing well for Bayern.


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## Deficient Mode

Commentator was right: Ulreich kept diving right

Oh well, meaningless match.


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## HoseEmDown

Loopy0ne said:


> Does the league split up the American TV $$$ with the teams like in the Prem?
> 
> I am watching this on FOX which is like one of biggest channels. Things are getting better for watching the sport here




They need someone better than Stuart Holden to do community, he ruins it for me.


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## LemmyUlanov55

Ulle wins it for Bayern, yay!


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## Nalens Oga

HoseEmDown said:


> They need someone better than Stuart Holden to do community, he ruins it for me.




Tomas Hitzlezpsezezberger was doing the colour commentary on the Bein stream I was using 

Also I dunno what people are complaining about, those goals were fine, the video review is only going to call back the first one if he's clearly offside.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

The first goal was not fine. Kimmich was offside, and it wasn't a tough call.

The second one was fine.


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## jniklast

Yeah, DFB admitted they didn't have any calibrated lines for the offside in the first half due to technical difficulties. I mean this was just a glorified friendly, so who cares, but if this happens in a league game they better just scrap VAR alltogether.


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## Bon Esprit

Nalens Oga said:


> Tomas Hitzlezpsezezberger was doing the colour commentary on the Bein stream I was using
> 
> Also I dunno what people are complaining about, those goals were fine, the video review is only going to call back the first one if he's clearly offside.




Congrats, I like Hitzelsperger. He's a calm, polite guy who actually knows what he is talking about. Plus he has a history at EPL, Bundesliga and NT.


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## Venkman

Don Hutchinson on British tv said he was stunned Bayern let Douglas Costa go and that he could win the Ballon d'Or in the next couple of years. 

Looking at his twitter he also thinks Nainggolan is better than Pogba.

Zagadou looked good on the ball but a little lost without it.


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## Deficient Mode

Isak had four goals vs. Erfurt today.

Beste had a goal and two or three assists as well. Some really nice passes. Wonder if this improve his case for the professional team while Schmelzer and Guerreiro are out.


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## jniklast

Deficient Mode said:


> Isak had four goals vs. Erfurt today.
> 
> Beste had a goal and two or three assists as well. Some really nice passes. Wonder if this improve his case for the professional team while Schmelzer and Guerreiro are out.




Well, against Rielasingen-Arlen (6th tier) they should be fine with pretty much anybody. I'd love if both Isak and Beste get a reward. Especially Isak needs playing time first and foremost. He has all the talent, he just needs some time and a little more muscle.


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## Deficient Mode

jniklast said:


> Well, against Rielasingen-Arlen (6th tier) they should be fine with pretty much anybody. I'd love if both Isak and Beste get a reward. Especially Isak needs playing time first and foremost. He has all the talent, he just needs some time and a little more muscle.




For some reason I thought Schmelzer would be out longer but Transfermarkt at least projects him to return on August 14. Never mind about Beste then.

I will be disappointed if Isak isn't in the professional squad this year. Fantastic talent.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

Isak was on the bench yesterday, so he should be Auba's back up.


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## Bon Esprit

Mehmet Scholl and ARD part ways. Thank god.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

He didn't know who one of his players was.


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## jniklast

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> He didn't know who one of his players was.





He's right though, he hasn't worked with him. But it makes it pretty obvious that it wasn't his decision to put him in the reserves.


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## Cassano

FC Hollywood
Dortmund
RB Leipzig
Hoffenheim
Schalke


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## Nalens Oga

Leipzig still have Keita and Forsberg and they didn't lose anyone else major did they? Don't see why they can't finish ahead of Dortmund again.


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## Cassano

Nalens Oga said:


> Leipzig still have Keita and Forsberg and they didn't lose anyone else major did they? Don't see why they can't finish ahead of Dortmund again.




They're playing in Europe this year.


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## Live in the Now

Nalens Oga said:


> Leipzig still have Keita and Forsberg and they didn't lose anyone else major did they? Don't see why they can't finish ahead of Dortmund again.




They also signed Bruma, Laimer, and Augustin. I think they will challenge actually.


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## Vipers31

Nalens Oga said:


> Leipzig still have Keita and Forsberg and they didn't lose anyone else major did they? Don't see why they can't finish ahead of Dortmund again.




They could, but I wouldn't absolutely expect them to. A fair bit of their focus is going to be on their European debut, which is going to take a bit of a toll phsyically. Also, last season sank BVB in the first half, really. They made up six points as they regained form in the 2nd half. To be fair, who knows how Bosz will work and as a new coach, there's a chance they'll struggle out of the gate again, but overall, I personally think it's slightly more reasonable to project BVB finishing ahead.


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## cgf

DrRecchi said:


> FC Hollywood
> Dortmund
> RB Leipzig
> Hoffenheim
> Schalke




If Nagelsmann keeps TSG in a CL spot he really will be everything he's hyped to be and more.

Their midfield will be stronger once Grillitsch settles in and Amiri becomes a must starter; and Gnabry will give their attack more individual brilliance; but Sule is a tremendous lose to their defensive & build-up play.

I agree with your top 3, but that fourth spot could be claimed by a half dozen different clubs


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## Deficient Mode

Dortmund have struggled in preseason compared to the previous two years, but that really means little. If they hold onto Dembele, they should be second, and could challenge for the title if things go very right for them and very wrong for Bayern. Their roster additions will have been better than Leipzig's, and quite frankly they were the better team overall last season.

Leipzig added some intriguing depth pieces but people really underestimate how much they were helped by not having European or cup matches last season. They only ended up 3 points ahead of Dortmund in the end. 

I think Schalke will benefit the same way this season so I'd favor them for 4th for now. Their coach sounds good and they have an underperforming roster.


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## cgf

Man, if our backline continues to hold up; Union winning promotion may not be just a joke any longer. For a 2nd division club god damn do we move the ball well.


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## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> Man, if our backline continues to hold up; Union winning promotion may not be just a joke any longer. For a 2nd division club god damn do we move the ball well.




It's 1:1 now vs. a 4th division club right now. And from what I read at kicker Union is lucky it's only a draw.

Hannover ain't better at all today 1:1 at Bonn, only topped by Hamburg trailing at OsnabrÃ¼ck at halftime.


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## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> It's 1:1 now vs. a 4th division club right now. And from what I read at kicker Union is lucky it's only a draw.
> 
> Hannover ain't better at all today 1:1 at Bonn, only topped by Hamburg trailing at OsnabrÃƒÂ¼ck at halftime.




We gave away a pen, that Mesenholer stopped; and then our arch-nemesis, set piece defending, reared its ugly head. I've missed most of the 2nd half; but even without Kroos & Hartel starting, our midfield was flowing nicely in the 1st.

EDIT:
I usually hate Polter's whininess, but yeah, that should've been a penalty as he would've tapped that in if he wasn't pulled back.


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## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> We gave away a pen, that Mesenholer stopped; and then our arch-nemesis, set piece defending, reared its ugly head. I've missed most of the 2nd half; but even without Kroos & Hartel starting, our midfield was flowing nicely in the 1st.
> 
> EDIT:
> I usually hate Polter's whininess, but yeah, that should've been a penalty as he would've tapped that in if he wasn't pulled back.




I don't watch it either. I'm just watching the kicker ticker. Mighty Hannover now is up 3:2 at 5th or whatever division Bonn, and LOL hamburg is down 1:3 at OsnabrÃ¼ck (they play with 10 players). I love German cup games.

edit Hannover with 3 goal in 2 or 3 minutes. LOL.


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## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> I don't watch it either. I'm just watching the kicker ticker. Mighty Hannover now is up 3:2 at 5th or whatever division Bonn, *and LOL hamburg is down 1:3 at OsnabrÃ¼ck (they play with 10 players). I love German cup games.*
> 
> edit Hannover with 3 goal in 2 or 3 minutes. LOL.




Cup matches are the best


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## cgf

That save from Mesenholer was jaw dropping. I was sure Saarbrucken had just scored a pretty goal to tie it late in extra time; then Mesenholer showed why he's such a highly rated prospect in net.

E: and now Cymer responds with a crazy save for saarbrucken


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## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> That save from Mesenholer was jaw dropping. I was sure Saarbrucken had just scored a pretty goal to tie it late in extra time; then Mesenholer showed why he's such a highly rated prospect in net.
> 
> E: and now Cymer responds with a crazy save for saarbrucken




At least you won. No surprises at all this matchday. Even Hamburg had a history vs. OsnabrÃ¼ck. But still LOL.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Magdeburg beating Augsburg is a surprise win. In spite of Magdeburg having the distinction of having won a major European trophy and Augsburg being a very low-profile club, at the end of the day it's an OK BuLi team losing to a 3.Liga team (that spent most of the last 25 years in the depths of regional amateur football).


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Amazing article from Nuri Sahin in The Player's Tribune 


https://www.theplayerstribune.com/nuri-sahin-borussia-dortmund/


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Magdeburg beating Augsburg is a surprise win. In spite of Magdeburg having the distinction of having won a major European trophy and Augsburg being a very low-profile club, at the end of the day it's an OK BuLi team losing to a 3.Liga team (that spent most of the last 25 years in the depths of regional amateur football).




Magdeburg's strong academy has helped them rise of late, and they try to play some decent football. Unlike Augsburg who are useless when not bunkering against a superior side.

That one isn't _that_ shocking.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Bon Esprit said:


> Mehmet Scholl and ARD part ways. Thank god.




Replaced by the one and only Stefan Effenberg.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

It seems like the only requirement for landing that gig is to be a former national team player and to have a massive ego.


----------



## Bon Esprit

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> It seems like the only requirement for landing that gig is to be a former national team player and *to have a massive ego*.




Yup, that's the important point. See Kahn.
Why not a guy like Steffen Freund or Hitzelsperger?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Amazing article from Nuri Sahin in The Player's Tribune
> 
> 
> https://www.theplayerstribune.com/nuri-sahin-borussia-dortmund/




Yeah, nice article. He might not be that good anymore, but he seems a good leader in the squad.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Bon Esprit said:


> Yup, that's the important point. See Kahn.
> Why not a guy like Steffen Freund or Hitzelsperger?




The best analysts are IMO experienced managers (i.e. "trainer" in German). Klopp was easily the best pundit on German TV *ever* and he was the first guy who brought some actual 'real talk' in how to review a match on TV. 

The thing with these ex-players is that most of them don't actually know a whole lot about how modern football works because they experienced it from the narrowest of perspectives - that of the player. Coaches, managers and directors see it with a broader perspectives. Of course a guy like Klopp knows more about performance evaluation and tactical analysis than an Effenberg or Kahn. Of course a guy like Hoeness or Zorc would know more about the business side of things.

But the reality is that the TV decision makers think the viewers are too dumb for a real professional approach to punditry. They just want some famous ex-player to come out with some provocative statement that the Bild-Zeitung can pick up the next day.


----------



## SchwenningerWildWing

Bobadilla from Augsburg to Gladbach, pending a medical. Don't like that move. Should have kept Hahn then.

Durm from Dortmund to Stuttgart is also possible


----------



## cgf

I don't like the signing either, but Hahn was more injury prone, less of a force in the box, and outside of the pre-euro hotstreak, less clinical in front of goal. As a plan B, I do prefer Bobadilla to Hahn, but I wish Hecking weren't so obsessed with having that big targetman plan B and that they had moved for someone like Iturbe or Bertrand Traore instead.


----------



## Bon Esprit

SchwenningerWildWing said:


> Bobadilla from Augsburg to Gladbach, pending a medical. Don't like that move. Should have kept Hahn then.
> 
> Durm from Dortmund to Stuttgart is also possible




I like what Stuttgart is doing. The complete opposite of what their fellow promotion team Hannover does. You can't have enough Bundesliga talent. If all the pieces click they won't have much to do with relegation.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Happy to have Durm gone


----------



## WhiskeySeven*

Deficient Mode said:


> Happy to have Durm gone



What's so bad about Durm? I remember some hype...

btw Given your avatar and 'the Absolute Boy'... I feel like we run in the same twitter circles  I'm @ wrongace


----------



## Bon Esprit

WhiskeySeven said:


> What's so bad about Durm? I remember some hype...
> 
> btw Given your avatar and 'the Absolute Boy'... I feel like we run in the same twitter circles  I'm @ wrongace




Durm is not good enough for what Dortmund wants to achieve, but good enough for every lower team IMO.


----------



## jniklast

Hard to really judge Durm when he wasn't really fit for a longer stretch in the last two years. I think he wasn't too bad in 13/14


----------



## Deficient Mode

WhiskeySeven said:


> What's so bad about Durm? I remember some hype...
> 
> btw Given your avatar and 'the Absolute Boy'... I feel like we run in the same twitter circles  I'm @ wrongace




Ehh, it became apparent that he was a good runner but didn't have a good brain or good technical ability. Schmelzer+Guerreiro make him unnecessary on the left side, and Passlack (and now Toljan) have shown more promise on the right side behind Piszczek.

Haha looks like it.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

WhiskeySeven said:


> What's so bad about Durm? I remember some hype...




Can't control a football.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Good to see that Hoffenheim free kick expertise helping someone at least.

I really think Rudy will excel at Bayern.

Leverkusen doesn't look bad attacking so far though. Hmm.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Another set piece goal for Bayern. Tolisso with an easy header in the scramble after the corner.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

They back. Fun to think someone else might win the Bundesliga during preseason.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> They back. Fun to think someone else might win the Bundesliga during preseason.




Eh, it is always 90/10 Bayern/someone else thing for me. Bayern honestly don't look too good defensively in the opening half hour. And they did give up more goals last season than under Pep. So I guess this match is still offering a ray of hope.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Looks like a hurricane is blowing through Munich tbh.


----------



## Just Win

I guess being awful at defending set pieces cannot be fixed....


----------



## Nalens Oga

Pretty good 2nd half by Leverkusen, Julian Brandt was really good, Tah as well like usual and Kampl brought a lot of energy when he was subbed on but they obviously don't have the same quality as Bayern.

I thought the penalty Lewandowski won by the VAR was a bit of a dive tbh, didn't make a difference in the end though. Also, Muller was a bit useless basically just running aimlessly and with a large gap to Lewandowski, Robben was much better when he was subbed on. Vidal being the usual dumb hothead at times, Sule being good but doesn't have a lot of pace and could be exposed, Kimmich looking great, and didn't notice Rudy much but he was fine.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Still going with Zagadou at LB. Not sure I like that. Would prefer Passlack. Nice to see Goetze back, but Dahoud has come out for him. I'd have taken out Sahin.


----------



## Timeless Winter

Gorgeous goal by Pulisic.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

That was an excellent half. Ball movement looks great.


----------



## Bon Esprit

lol at nikolai mÃ¼ller. injured himself while celebrating his goal.


----------



## John Price




----------



## ecemleafs

Pulisic Ballon D'or


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

There were not many performances last season better than that. Wolfsburg had no chance, chasing the ball all game. Movement, quick passing was so good. Pulisic, Goetze, Bartra, Sahin the standouts.


----------



## ecemleafs

Weston McKennie makes the bench for Schalke today


----------



## cgf

How did Uduokhai look for VFL? He's got a lot of potential, but it's surprising to see him jump straight from 1860 into their starting XI


----------



## jniklast

cgf said:


> How did Uduokhai look for VFL? He's got a lot of potential, but it's surprising to see him jump straight from 1860 into their starting XI




Brooks and Bruma were injured, that's why he was in the starting XI. He's a good talent though, no doubt.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

cgf said:


> How did Uduokhai look for VFL? He's got a lot of potential, but it's surprising to see him jump straight from 1860 into their starting XI




Pretty bad, although he wasn't the only one. The whole Wolfsburg team was awful. It was a complete dismantling.


----------



## cgf

jniklast said:


> Brooks and Bruma were injured, that's why he was in the starting XI. He's a good talent though, no doubt.




Makes sense, still surprising given where he was playing at the end of last season (BuLi2 relegation playoff). 

How did look? Overmatched & out of place? Or did he manage to look like he belonged already? Personally I thought he wouldn't become a senior team option until the winter camps, but kids usually break through a little faster than I expect.


----------



## cgf

Schalke are already way more fluid in possession than they ever were under Weinzierl. I guess maybe there was something to the whole 'Tedesco got better grades than Nagelsmann when they were studying to become coaches together' thing.

Upamecano is a bull in a china shop. He'll give away pens like that every week if he just keeps running through players like that.


----------



## Live in the Now

Yep, definitely showing his age. Not the first time this match he did that either.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Upamecano was actually very good before that pen. He did have a couple overly physical challenges but none were as clumsy as that. He needs to rein it in a bit.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Upamecano was actually very good before that pen. He did have a couple overly physical challenges but none were as clumsy as that. He needs to rein it in a bit.




He had a few scenes that were approaching the line, but yeah, he's reading the play well and moving the ball effectively. That over-physicality is really my only gripe with his game today.

PS that terrible ad just made me miss Trapattoni. The italian accent is just too much fun in this tongue.


----------



## cgf

Kudos to Hasenhuttl, that's a nice aggressive change that RB needs to start creating real danger; as they were very toothless in the first half.

E:
Oh di Santo. Hopefully Embolo is ready to take his job soon, cause Schalke look like they'll be fun to watch under Tedesco.

E2:
Cheeky Harit, but not very smart in that position.


----------



## Evilo

Has Harit played at all?


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> Has Harit played at all?




Started. He's had some bright scenes, forced Keita to take a yellow to break up a counter; but just gave away a silly FK in a dangerous area that Forsberg wasted. He's not dominating, but so far it's been a good debut for the kid. 

Doesn't hurt that Schalke look much more fluid than last year as a whole. Very interesting to see what Tedesco can turn all of that young talent into if he keeps up the good work.


----------



## Evilo

Thanks. Hopefully he adapts quickly. His problem has been the end product so far.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> Thanks. Hopefully he adapts quickly. His problem has been the end product so far.




 Well hopefully Tedesco has the magic touch and can help both Harit & Meyer become masters of the final ball, as that's been Meyer's biggest hurdle at the senior level as well.

You can tell Harit is still figuring things out as there's been a few times were he was running around like a mad man in pressing while the rest of the team moved back & away from him. But he's showing the bright sparks that you like to see from a young player at a new & bigger club, while working his ass off & showing some nice cleverness.

E: Harit just played a beautiful ball to spark Reese out on the counter, but Upamecano outran the Schalke forward and forced him away from goal.


----------



## cgf

lol Poulsen.

And Oczipka almost out does him with a horrible give away that leads to Bentaleb getting KTFO by a clearance attempt lol

This game has taken an odd turn these past few minutes


----------



## ecemleafs

leipzig burned on the counter. konoplyanka in all alone and finishes far post.


----------



## Live in the Now

Great dribble and pass by Harit.


----------



## Deficient Mode

On the subject of Harit, brilliant play by him to assist that second goal.


----------



## Evilo

Cool


----------



## ecemleafs

mckennie on for harit.


----------



## ecemleafs

McKennie had a nice play where he kept control and then played the ball forward, but he was often times the most forward schalke player and he looked uncomfortable in that position. He didnt show much attacking instinct as a furthest most player on the counter imo.


----------



## cgf

Strong debut for Tedesco. Schalke didn't have that much of the ball, but they were quick, crisp & fluid when they did and successfully neutralized RB's press. Will be interesting to see how they do this season, especially when they have to run the match, but there was a lot of improvement over last season.

Hassenhuttl showed admirable courage with his substitutions, but this match did little to assuage my concerns about how they'll do when they have to play in possession and their pressing can not create for them. As Augustin & Bruma settle in Poulsen will be replaced, they will have more class up front, which will help. But they lack that creative maestro that Abouchabaka should become, and I still question how well their attacking structure can create openings...even though it's obviously great at taking advantage of openings.



ecemleafs said:


> McKennie had a nice play where he kept control and then played the ball forward, but he was often times the most forward schalke player and he looked uncomfortable in that position. He didnt show much attacking instinct as a furthest most player on the counter imo.




I wouldn't take too much out of that showing. It was the 79th minute, his team were sitting back on a 2 goal lead and he was the freshest legs on the pitch. I didn't really notice much of him, but it also wasn't exactly a great opportunity to show off.


----------



## Bure80

Dortmunds youth sensation Youssoufa Moukoko (12 years old) scored 4 goals for the U17 team. He leads the league in goals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=bAsOYU3LX_k


----------



## Power Man

Bentaleb and Goretzka have great chemistry


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

ecemleafs said:


> McKennie had a nice play where he kept control and then played the ball forward, but he was often times the most forward schalke player and he looked uncomfortable in that position. He didnt show much attacking instinct as a furthest most player on the counter imo.




I wish the Fox announcers would concentrate less on him. 

I get it, he's American, and I think he's gonna be a very good player, but its kind of cringeworthy that they concentrate on an 18 year old with two career pro games coming on in the 79th minute. Anywhere else, thats a footnote, and maybe they talk about that guy for a few lines. I hate when they do that for Americans. Sometimes its still annoying when they do it for Pulisic, although Pulisic is a legitimate star now, so its more understandable.

McKennie doesn't need all this pressure on him. He should be able to concentrate on getting more minutes, and not being anointed anything yet. A lot of people want to do that because they want to find the next Pulisic, but I'd rather he earn his air time, like a player from any other country would have to.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I wish the Fox announcers would concentrate less on him.
> 
> I get it, he's American, and I think he's gonna be a very good player, but its kind of cringeworthy that they concentrate on an 18 year old with two career pro games coming on in the 79th minute. Anywhere else, thats a footnote, and maybe they talk about that guy for a few lines. I hate when they do that for Americans. Sometimes its still annoying when they do it for Pulisic, although Pulisic is a legitimate star now, so its more understandable.
> 
> McKennie doesn't need all this pressure on him. He should be able to concentrate on getting more minutes, and not being anointed anything yet. A lot of people want to do that because they want to find the next Pulisic, but I'd rather he earn his air time, like a player from any other country would have to.




You don't have much football talent in the bigger leagues. So I think it's okay to tell the US people some players are doing well overseas. German paper BILD for example today fell in love with Leon Draisaitl and his new contract. AFAIK he was never mentioned in any major paper so far. 
Hopefully more young Americans play football and more young Germans play hockey.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Bon Esprit said:


> lol at nikolai mÃ¼ller. injured himself while celebrating his goal.




I take that back. MÃ¼ller is seriously injured. Out at least 6 months.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Bon Esprit said:


> I take that back. MÃ¼ller is seriously injured. Out at least 6 months.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Leipzig-Bayern second round Pokal match


----------



## cgf

Union-Leverkusen as well 

At least BMG are outplaying Koln...now to just put some of their chances in the back of the net.


----------



## bluesfan94

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I wish the Fox announcers would concentrate less on him.
> 
> I get it, he's American, and I think he's gonna be a very good player, but its kind of cringeworthy that they concentrate on an 18 year old with two career pro games coming on in the 79th minute. Anywhere else, thats a footnote, and maybe they talk about that guy for a few lines. I hate when they do that for Americans. Sometimes its still annoying when they do it for Pulisic, although Pulisic is a legitimate star now, so its more understandable.
> 
> McKennie doesn't need all this pressure on him. He should be able to concentrate on getting more minutes, and not being anointed anything yet. A lot of people want to do that because they want to find the next Pulisic, but I'd rather he earn his air time, like a player from any other country would have to.




I doubt McKennie is feeling too much pressure from the American broadcast of a game he was playing in in Germany.


----------



## cgf

Finally, elvedi scores the first BuLi goal of the season for BMG after a beautiful throughball from stindl sent Traore on the run, who then slide the ball across the front of the box for Elvedi to pop in on the far side.

E:
And not even a minute later Elvedi puts in a great block to stop Cordoba from a great chance.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Union-Leverkusen as well
> 
> At least BMG are outplaying Koln...now to just put some of their chances in the back of the net.




Your favorite vs. (one of) your least favorite(s)? Think how much fun you'd have if Union won.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Your favorite vs. (one of) your least favorite(s)? Think how much fun you'd have if Union won.




I would never stop talking s*** if we beat them 

And Leverkusen's up there, but they are no BFC, or even Dresden.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Poor finishing by Cologne. Zakaria's a pretty good player, looked more impressive than Kramer tbh.


----------



## Albatros

Bon Esprit said:


> I take that back. MÃ¼ller is seriously injured. Out at least 6 months.




I still remember when that guy left Mainz to take his career to another level in Hamburg.


----------



## les Habs

Schalke must have a new manager if Konoplyanka is starting.


----------



## Deficient Mode

"Schalke" and "new managers" go hand in hand.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> "Schalke" and "new managers" go hand in hand.




To be fair, Tedesco is looking like he could buck that trend.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> To be fair, Tedesco is looking like he could buck that trend.




They'll turn on him too before long. Wait until their first cold streak. If he lasts a year and a half to two years it'll have been a successful tenure. Legendary if over two years.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> They'll turn on him too before long. Wait until their first cold streak. If he lasts a year and a half to two years it'll have been a successful tenure. Legendary if over two years.




For some reason I see Heidel going to bat for them as long as they continue to look better...even if they have a run of poor results later in the season despite playing well


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> For some reason I see Heidel going to bat for them as long as they continue to look better...even if they have a run of poor results later in the season despite playing well




Fan pressure would get to Heidel too. Otherwise he's risking his own job.

Of course there is reason for some optimism. Tedesco seems to be a very good manager and they just shut down last year's #2. Some Schalke fans have been stupidly optimistic though and that will just change to stupid pessimism when they have a cold streak.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Fan pressure would get to Heidel too. Otherwise he's risking his own job.
> 
> Of course there is reason for some optimism. Tedesco seems to be a very good manager and they just shut down last year's #2. Some Schalke fans have been stupidly optimistic though and that will just change to stupid pessimism when they have a cold streak.




True, if the hype gets out of control than any downturn will result in the fans swiftly turning on him; but I think Heidel realizes that he's gunna have to go against the fans and hold onto a coach that they've turned on if he ever wants to build anything real in Gelsenkirchen.


----------



## YNWA14

les Habs said:


> Schalke must have a new manager if Konoplyanka is starting.




Have no idea why he wasn't a starter for them to begin with. I quite like him as a player.

Finally got around to watching the game and Bentaleb impressed as well. But Harit's play on the goal for Kono was filthy. Schalke might be a fun team to watch this year.


----------



## Vipers31

Yeah, I wouldn't mind to be wrong about them (again), but I think Schalke will do well enough this year. They have enough quality to keep their coach out of questions, and until he proves otherwise, I think he's decent enough to utilize the given talent to that degree. A midfield built around Goretzka, Bentaleb, Konoplyanka and Harit should lead them pretty far.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich




----------



## cgf

lol Koln


----------



## cgf

cgf said:


> lol Koln




I repeat my previous comment.


----------



## Live in the Now

Good finish by Wood.


----------



## cgf

lol Hamburg


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> lol Hamburg




I was just going to say: lol HSV too.


----------



## cgf

I wonder what happens with Dardai in a year or two. You can't refuse to try and play when Maier & Duda through alongside Darida; and Torunarigha is starting their attacks with his beautiful left foot. But I dunno if Dardai has that in his repertoire. I can see a 3-4-1-2/3-1-4-2 like this working beautifully for them by season's end/early next season:

Selke - Lazaro
Duda
Plattenhart* - Maier - Darida - Weiser......
Torunarigha - Stark - Rekik.........

*Mittelstadt​


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> I was just going to say: lol HSV too.




I was enjoying Koln's awefulness, but then HSV had to do the HSV thing after that long delay


----------



## Live in the Now

Cordoba would drive me nuts if I were a Koln fan.


----------



## cgf

Live in the Now said:


> Cordoba would drive me nuts if I were a Koln fan.




Yeah, he's great at almost making things happen


----------



## Live in the Now

Great play by him there but LOL at what happened after.


----------



## cgf

What do you mean? He almost helped spark a comeback!

lol Koln won't get out of their group in the EL and could end up on the outskirts of the relegation race playing like this. The team is toothless outside of set pieces & counters, but no longer has its set-piece ace. They can still defend well when other teams will carry the play, but goals will be scarce...even if both Horn & Klunter could end up NT starters.


----------



## Live in the Now

cgf said:


> What do you mean? He almost helped spark a comeback!




The fighting and Papa faking being killed.


----------



## cgf

Live in the Now said:


> The fighting and Papa faking being killed.




It was a good bit of fun at the end of a drawn out & boring match between a toothless Koln & a brainless HSV.


----------



## Albatros

Live in the Now said:


> Cordoba would drive me nuts if I were a Koln fan.




Great business by Mainz getting 16 million for him, apparently KÃ¶ln desperately wanted to find someone resembling Modeste. Not an awful player though, but rather mediocre and entirely replaceable.


----------



## LemmyUlanov55

Albatros said:


> *Great business by Mainz getting 16 million for him*, apparently KÃ¶ln desperately wanted to find someone resembling Modeste. Not an awful player though, but rather mediocre and entirely replaceable.



Absolutely. You're not paying 16 Mio for a striker with such a bad finishing rate, i guess Mainz is still laughing about the deal.


----------



## Evilo

Damn, almost another special for Tolisso there.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Zagadou is quite good at LB. Mostly in pressing though. Generated both of Dortmund's big chances by stripping a Hertha player.


----------



## YNWA14

Zakaria seems to have started out in the BuLi quite brightly.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Really nice strike by Sahin. Pressing is really really good today too. More of a focus for Bosz than Tuchel. Zagadou is still breaking up absolutely everything too.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Though he's playing for our rival these days: Congrats, Holger Badstuber, to your game winning goal. And welcome back to the healthy.


----------



## cgf

Curtinho said:


> Zakaria seems to have started out in the BuLi quite brightly.




Yep, it's a shame Hecking is such a blah coach. A creative coach with a midfield trio featuring Zakaria, Kramer & Benes would lead to some phenomenal football. Instead we get old man Hecking trying to sit on a 1 goal lead and so leaving points on the pitch against Augsburg.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Yep, it's a shame Hecking is such a blah coach. A creative coach with a midfield trio featuring Zakaria, Kramer & Benes would lead to some phenomenal football. Instead we get old man Hecking trying to sit on a 1 goal lead and so leaving points on the pitch against Augsburg.




Gladbach sold out their hipster roots for such a mainstream coach. On the other hand, the other Borussia only got more hipster.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Gladbach sold out their hipster roots for such a mainstream coach. On the other hand, the other Borussia only got more hipster.




Not sure how throwing your big bucks around to poach a coach who was just in a european final is hipster 

But Hecking is so disappointing.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Not sure how throwing your big bucks around to poach a coach who was just in a european final is hipster
> 
> But Hecking is so disappointing.




Yes but he was severely criticized for lacking pragmatism in that European final and attacking and pressing recklessly even against Mou! So hip!


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Zagadou is quite good at LB. Mostly in pressing though. Generated both of Dortmund's big chances by stripping a Hertha player.




Really? I thought he was pretty bad today. I didn't like how any of the backline besides Toprak and Bartra played. Everyone else I thought did between okay and well. 

It was a nice win. Didn't think we were that good today, but it wasn't a difficult match.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Really? I thought he was pretty bad today. I didn't like how any of the backline besides Toprak and Bartra played. Everyone else I thought did between okay and well.
> 
> It was a nice win. Didn't think we were that good today, but it wasn't a difficult match.




Yeah. He wasn't spectacular offensively and made a lot of back passes, but otherwise he spaced himself well and was pretty calm with the ball at least. And I'm pretty sure every time he was challenged, he blocked the ball, intercepted the pass, or stole it, including the two big first half chances. The pressing as a whole was more of a highlight and chance creator for the team than their passing or creativity in established possession. The second goal also came directly after a successful counterpress.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Yeah. He wasn't spectacular offensively and made a lot of back passes, but otherwise he spaced himself well and was pretty calm with the ball at least. And I'm pretty sure every time he was challenged, he blocked the ball, intercepted the pass, or stole it, including the two big first half chances. The pressing as a whole was more of a highlight and chance creator for the team than their passing or creativity in established possession. The second goal also came directly after a successful counterpress.




I thought Zagadou struggled with his recognition of some of the runs on his side of the field. I thought he had a similar problem against Bayern. Might be because he isn't a LB. Schmelzer should be back next match anyway, so he probably won't be playing there next match.


----------



## jniklast

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Really? I thought he was pretty bad today. I didn't like how any of the backline besides Toprak and Bartra played. Everyone else I thought did between okay and well.
> 
> It was a nice win. Didn't think we were that good today, but it wasn't a difficult match.




I think Zagadou was decent defensively, good in link-up play and bad with his crossing (expected). Overall I think he was very solid. Piszczek on the other side was kind of simiki with disappointing crosses and decision making on offense. Both our full backs being offensive bkack-holes more or less today hurt our ability to create chances.

Overall I think it was a good game by us, we hardly gave Hertha anything. In the end it looks easy because the opponent looks weak (same with Wolfsburg last week), but our pressing suffocating the opponent play does a lot for that.

Also Sahin was superb today, he's a good player still when healthy.


----------



## WhiskeySeven*

Holger Beststuber is going to single-handedly carry Stuttgart to the EL.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Yes but he was severely criticized for lacking pragmatism in that European final and attacking and pressing recklessly even against Mou! So hip!




Make excuses all you want, still isn't as hipster as taking the most mainstream-cookiecutter coach in germany and turning him into a hipster who experiments with 3 man backlines and uses a lopsided formation that turns more into a 3-4-3 in attack! They just need Hecking to learn not to sit back & counter until the lead is at least 2 goals, and to try a midfield triangle, before the hipsterification will be complete! 

...*sigh* at this point I'm praying that Tuchel is sick of big clubs & wants to take over BMG, if the DFB doesn't offer him the NT gig...at least Union is well positioned to actually make that step that I never thought would be possible


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

jniklast said:


> Also Sahin was superb today, he's a good player still when healthy.




I agree about this, don't need to rush Weigl back. After the international break, we have Freiburg on the road and then Tottenham on the road. Looks like Weigl will be back for those two games, but we can play him into some form instead of throwing him in there right away. Give him maybe 30 minutes against Freiburg, so he can be fit to start against Spurs, where we'll really need him.


----------



## cgf

Plus you need to continue integrating Dahoud more. Once everything's settled in you need to be playing Weigl, Dahoud & Gotze as your first team midfield, with Sahin, Castro & Kagawa as the B-unit.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

cgf said:


> Plus you need to continue integrating Dahoud more. Once everything's settled in you need to be playing Weigl, Dahoud & Gotze as your first team midfield, with Sahin, Castro & Kagawa as the B-unit.




Yeah, I mentioned that the other day, although I wouldn't mind Kagawa playing as a winger for now instead of Philipp, I liked how Kagawa played today, and Philipp hasn't been too good the first few games, although he was better today. Guerreiro will also get some minutes in central midfield, maybe even start, although he'll likely still see significant time down the left hand side, at LB and LW. Could also bring in another defensive midfield option, given Sahin's fitness problems, although right now he's fit and playing well.


----------



## Nalens Oga

I dunno why they didn't bother to use VAR on the first Lewandowski goal which looked like a clear offside on the replay or the second Hoffenheim goal which had a foul committed by the scorer on the lead-up to the play.

Also, bit of a weak performance by Bremen. At home and they barely bothered to trouble Bayern. You had a goalie making his first start in four months and they barely tested him. I expected them to get dominated but that level of bus-parking at home and treating the ball like a hot potato is weak.


----------



## cgf

I liked what I saw from Maxi today. He did a good job playing off of Auba and pressing. As he gets more confident he'll start popping goals in as well and then he'll really shine for you.

I like Raphael, and think that the very best midfield you could put together would have him & Mo in front of Weigl; but I think it would help you more if he took over as the #1 LB instead so I didn't think of him...though thinking about it; he should slide in to that spot whenever Mo isn't starting, with Schmelzer stepping in at LB. Even though I think Castro & Schmelle are comparable caliber players, Raphael has more of an influence from the 8 than LB, and I generally prefer to have the great 8 + unspectacular LB than the other way around.



Nalens Oga said:


> I dunno why they didn't bother to use VAR on the first Lewandowski goal which looked like a clear offside on the replay or the second Hoffenheim goal which had a foul committed by the scorer on the lead-up to the play.
> 
> Also, bit of a weak performance by Bremen. At home and they barely bothered to trouble Bayern. You had a goalie making his first start in four months and they barely tested him. I expected them to get dominated but that level of bus-parking at home and treating the ball like a hot potato is weak.




Though getting Delaney healthy is huge for Werder; Junuzovic being injured & Grillitsch's departure is huge for Werder. Both were such a big part of their possession structure and played such pivotal roles in their smooth transitions into attack last season. The team will need some time to adapt even once they get their austrian captain back. 

Plus I don't rate older brother Eggestein too much as the Grillitsch replacement; which is why when Junuzovic gets back I'd tweak the shape so that their possession would be funneled from the defenders to him and Delaney both, with an extra body ahead of those two...as I don't like Yatabare, don't yet have an opinion on Gondorf, and don't rate Bargfrede/Petsos either.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Make excuses all you want, still isn't as hipster as taking the most mainstream-cookiecutter coach in germany and turning him into a hipster who experiments with 3 man backlines and uses a lopsided formation that turns more into a 3-4-3 in attack! They just need Hecking to learn not to sit back & counter until the lead is at least 2 goals, and to try a midfield triangle, before the hipsterification will be complete!
> 
> ...*sigh* at this point I'm praying that Tuchel is sick of big clubs & wants to take over BMG, if the DFB doesn't offer him the NT gig...at least Union is well positioned to actually make that step that I never thought would be possible




Tuchel should go to Union imo.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Anyone catch highlights of the Bayer v Hoffenheim game? Bellarabi and Brandt looked like they were in the middle of it again.

Also, not sure why both teams were wearing what looks like their 3rd kits despite no colour clash. Bayer's looks cool at least, the Hoffenheim one is awful on TV, it looks like they're all dressed as a goalie:


----------



## Albatros

That's Leverkusen's home kit, 3rd would be white.


----------



## Albatros

Deficient Mode said:


> Tuchel should go to Union imo.




Keller has done a fine job, no need to downgrade.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> Keller has done a fine job, no need to downgrade.




Keller will become an icon if he takes us to the first division, but I'd still drop him for Tuchel the same day he secured promotion.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> Keller has done a fine job, no need to *downgrade*.









Do I sense a Schalke fan?


----------



## Albatros

Tuchel is a poisonous character, something of a young Mike Keenan of football. I could give him the national team for one campaign but I wouldn't want him anywhere near my club.


----------



## cgf

I wouldn't blame Tuchel for Watzke's cowardice and would great him win open arms on any of the clubs I like


----------



## Albatros

It's not just Watzke, the same happened in Mainz already. Union is a similar club with a good harmony, so having a manager like that ready and willing to burn bridges in all directions within his own club could mean double trouble for them (even if KÃ¶penick has many bridges). He will inevitably lose the room sooner or later and then you need someone to calm down the situation and clean up the mess, for a small club that can mean more damage done than just one wasted season.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Tuchel spent 5 years at Mainz and he left of his own will without being fired. I find it really funny how the "Tuchel poisoned the waters and burned the bridges at Mainz" narrative spread the past half season. It was really a way for Dortmund players and executives to frame Tuchel as the problem, and not themselves. We don't know exactly what went on in the locker room, but the idea that Tuchel wouldn't help a football club because of his personality is ridiculous at this point. Some of the Dortmund players came off as pretty childish too. Namely Sahin and Schmelzer.


----------



## Albatros

It was not just the players, but also key staff members like the chief scout Mislintat were not on talking terms with Tuchel. In Mainz there was famously the Heinz MÃ¼ller case as well as Tuchel's attempt to defect to Schalke and his blatant lies about it which strained his relationship with absolutely everyone and led to his dishonorable leave. Tuchel has also gathered a team of equally problematic stooges like his fitness coach Rainer Schrey (who was fired already before Tuchel for his mobbing of players) around him which just makes problems even more inevitable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-rtdQgrCg4


----------



## Deficient Mode

That all really isn't that scandalous tbh. Nowhere near enough to merit calling him "poisonous." Mainz and Dortmund were in better shape after he left than when he took over.


----------



## jniklast

Tuchel is not an easy character, that's for sure. Of course he isn't solely to be blamed for the fallout at Dortmund, but to say it was only "Watzke's cowardice", when many persons throughout the club had trouble with Tuchel is just wrong.

Tuchel is a good coach, but I really doubt he will ever stay a longer time at a big club.


----------



## Albatros

In both cases Klopp deserves most of the credit, I don't think his last season in Dortmund really changes where he had taken them and Tuchel didn't really take them any bit further. The same is true for Mainz. Tuchel is not bad as a football tactician, but it is not possible to do that in a vacuum and so far he has not indicated any willingness to learn from his man management mistakes. As such a short project with limited player contact like the national team should suit his personality much better than any club. Or perhaps a league where the dictatorial style and mobbing of players are still the norm.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> In both cases Klopp deserves most of the credit, I don't think his last season in Dortmund really changes where he had taken them and Tuchel didn't really take them any bit further. The same is true for Mainz. Tuchel is not bad as a football tactician, but it is not possible to do that in a vacuum and so far he has not indicated any willingness to learn from his man management mistakes. As such a short project with limited player contact like the national team should suit his personality much better than any club. Or perhaps a league where the dictatorial style and mobbing of players are still the norm.




Mainz were still in the second division when Klopp left. Tuchel was the one who solidified their place in the Bundesliga during his tenure.

Dortmund were not in better shape collectively when Klopp left than they are now. He transformed their possession play into a huge positive immediately.

Really funny to talk about his "dictatorial" style being out of fashion when you consider some of the managers in this league. I'd say Dortmund players had grown too used to being the coach's friend during Klopp's tenure. Sahin vacationed with Klopp ffs. Authoritarian managers are still far more common than managers like Klopp.

I don't think he has shown no willingness to learn from his man management mistakes, either. He seemed less combative by the end of his tenure in Dortmund.


----------



## Albatros

Mainz was promoted back up by Andersen (another lousy communicator fired for it no less), Tuchel had an encouraging start but like in Dortmund ended up running in circles without any real development. In this sense he was ultimately no different to Martin Schmidt (tactically worse, but in man management miles ahead). Now with Kaluza, SchrÃ¶der, and Schwarz all pieces are rearranged there and it's yet early to say where that will lead. In the case of Dortmund Watzke has done a great job transforming the club off the field, and now has the opportunity to prove himself right again with the unwritten card (as Klopp would probably put it) Bosz.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> Mainz was promoted back up by Andersen (another lousy communicator fired for it no less), Tuchel had an encouraging start but like in Dortmund ended up running in circles without any real development. In this sense he was ultimately no different to Martin Schmidt (tactically worse, but in man management miles ahead). Now with Kaluza, SchrÃ¶der, and Schwarz all pieces are rearranged there and it's yet early to say where that will lead. In the case of Dortmund Watzke has done a great job transforming the club off the field, and now has the opportunity to prove himself right again with the unwritten card (as Klopp would probably put it) Bosz.




So Watzke gets credit for all the financial success of the club AND for finding a good managerial replacement (doubt he knew who Bosz was 6 months ago), but Tuchel gets zero credit for his results or for the money he secured for both Mainz and Dortmund through his results? 

I don't know what "real transformation" you expect out of Mainz. They have one of the smallest stadiums in the league and one of the smallest fan bases. Their ceiling as a club is nowhere near Dortmund's. Tuchel did help improve their financial and competitive position though. They made a fair amount of money off player transfers during his time from players he developed, and he kept them out of the relegation picture. Most managers start "running in circles" at the end of five years in charge. 

I don't know what "real transformation" you expect out of Dortmund either. After they grew into the second best club in Germany, they really didn't have anywhere noticeable to go up. Tuchel brought them their first real trophy in five years and had two successful years in charge. All they can hope for at this point is for Bayern to have an off year and maybe have some luck in the CL if they want to win a bigger trophy. Same as Klopp's last three years.


----------



## jniklast

Deficient Mode said:


> Mainz were still in the second division when Klopp left. Tuchel was the one who solidified their place in the Bundesliga during his tenure.
> 
> Dortmund were not in better shape collectively when Klopp left than they are now. He transformed their possession play into a huge positive immediately.
> 
> Really funny to talk about his "dictatorial" style being out of fashion when you consider some of the managers in this league. I'd say Dortmund players had grown too used to being the coach's friend during Klopp's tenure. Sahin vacationed with Klopp ffs. Authoritarian managers are still far more common than managers like Klopp.
> 
> I don't think he has shown no willingness to learn from his man management mistakes, either. He seemed less combative by the end of his tenure in Dortmund.




Klopp had one down year in 14/15, ignoring that Tuchel at best maintained the ability. That "great" possession game had almost as many failures last season as it had in the average Klopp season, so I don't think he performed any miracles there.

Also his less combativeness started in the winter break, when it became apparent that his contract would probably not be extended and when he then hired a PR expert. If I had to guess he was told to change a bit to improve his public image.


----------



## Deficient Mode

jniklast said:


> Klopp had one down year in 14/15, ignoring that Tuchel at best maintained the ability. That "great" possession game had almost as many failures last season as it had in the average Klopp season, so I don't think he performed any miracles there.
> 
> Also his less combativeness started in the winter break, when it became apparent that his contract would probably not be extended and when he then hired a PR expert. If I had to guess he was told to change a bit to improve his public image.




Yes, I'm sure he is more concerned about his public image than the success of the teams he manages.

Calling Klopp's possession play on par with Tuchel's - especially how Klopp left the team in 2015 - is stupid and ignorant.

Guess what, when you sell your best player every summer, maintaining the team at its current level is a mark of achievement. Sell your three best and still win a title, well, that's a successful year. People who criticize Tuchel's results sound like the deluded business people who tell you to "do more with less."


----------



## jniklast

Deficient Mode said:


> Yes, I'm sure he is more concerned about his public image than the success of the teams he manages.
> 
> Calling Klopp's possession play on par with Tuchel's - especially how Klopp left the team in 2015 - is stupid and ignorant.
> 
> Guess what, when you sell your best player every summer, maintaining the team at its current level is a mark of achievement. Sell your three best and still win a title, well, that's a successful year. People who criticize Tuchel's results sound like the deluded business people who tell you to "do more with less."




Where did I imply that Tuchel cared more about his public image than the success? By hiring a PR consultant he apparently started to care about his public image - but that's completely independent from the success of the team.

So what if his possession play is "better"? The results last season weren't. And yes, three players left, but they were replaced by expensive players - one of them the personal favorite of Tuchel.

In the end Klopp took a midtable team to heights Tuchel never reached.


----------



## cgf

Kloppo left Mainz a BuLi2 team and he left BVB an EL team. When Tuchel left Mainz they had been solidified in the top league, despite having about 15 fans, and he left BVB firmly in the CL spots with their first title in years. 

And to bring this back to what started this whole discussion; if Schalke had fired Keller earlier and signed Tuchel when they had the chance, the probably wouldn't have fallen out of the CL and squandered so much talent these past three years.

Now onto the important stuff; pouring em in against Bielefeld...ugh, f***in Bielefeld.


----------



## Vipers31

Tuchel doesn't get the same respect because he's not as likeable. He's not the type of guy that sells razors while sporting a beard. There's obviously aspects of football where he's far better than Klopp.


----------



## cgf

Vipers31 said:


> Tuchel doesn't get the same respect because he's not as likeable. He's not the type of guy that sells razors while sporting a beard. There's obviously aspects of football where he's far better than Klopp.




Don't ever change your avi, I don't wanna have to stop reading your posts in Norm Macdonald's voice.


----------



## jniklast

To only look at Klopp's last league position is of course misleading. I have severe doubts that had a 42-year old Tuchel come to Dortmund in 2008, he would've led them to similiar success as Klopp did. On the other hand I have little doubt that Klopp would've taken them back to the CL in 2016.


----------



## cgf

f***in bielefeld, we just gifted them that one


----------



## Vipers31

cgf said:


> Don't ever change your avi, I don't wanna have to stop reading your posts in Norm Macdonald's voice.




No promises, but being associated with Norm is obviously a massive plus that few avis could match.  I might have to write more in his speaking style.


----------



## cgf

Vipers31 said:


> No promises, but being associated with Norm is obviously a massive plus that few avis could match.  I might have to write more in his speaking style.




I add the "ughs" and pauses in my head


----------



## cgf

God damn it Polter, that should've been the equalizer


----------



## Vipers31

jniklast said:


> To only look at Klopp's last league position is of course misleading. I have severe doubts that had a 42-year old Tuchel come to Dortmund in 2008, he would've led them to similiar success as Klopp did. On the other hand I have little doubt that Klopp would've taken them back to the CL in 2016.




Klopp and his style were a perfect fit for them when he got there, so the first half of the statement I can agree with. It's probably reasonable to assume Klopp would not have his team underperform enough for a 2nd straight year to miss CL again, but at that stage, I'm rather sure Tuchel got more out of that group than Klopp would have. He just has broader tactical approaches that were needed.



cgf said:


> I add the "ughs" and pauses in my head



That helps.


----------



## cgf

That was pretty, and well deserved after the chances we've had over the past few minutes. Now to keep that offensive pressure up and to secure the full points. 

So running over Polter gets Bielefeld a FK...


----------



## Evilo

Nice move by Freiburg !


----------



## Bon Esprit

Evilo said:


> Nice move by Freiburg !




I don't know why, but something is telling me RB Leipzig could hit the ground hard this season. Wouldn't be the first time things like this would happen.


----------



## Evilo

Yeah, cinderella season could be tough to swallow. Part of it is they play counter much better than have possession and plenty of teams will be wary of them.


----------



## Evilo

Well, that quickly changed ! Nice assist by Augustin.


----------



## Deficient Mode

jniklast said:


> Where did I imply that Tuchel cared more about his public image than the success? By hiring a PR consultant he apparently started to care about his public image - but that's completely independent from the success of the team.
> 
> So what if his possession play is "better"? The results last season weren't. And yes, three players left, but they were replaced by expensive players - one of them the personal favorite of Tuchel.
> 
> In the end Klopp took a midtable team to heights Tuchel never reached.




The results last season were better than Klopp's last three seasons. They won a title.

So what if he improved the possession play? Well, the team's tactical functioning is one of the marks of the health of the team, and it makes it easier for the next coach to come in and hit the ground running.

Of course I don't think Tuchel achieved as much in Dortmund as Klopp did. However, the idea that he didn't improve the team given the circumstances - or that him not winning a league or CL title is evidence that the team declined under him - is wrong. Bayern is not the same team as in 2012.


----------



## Evilo

He also finished lower than Klopp in the league standings.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Evilo said:


> Well, that quickly changed ! Nice assist by Augustin.




I don't have this feeling because of today's game vs. Freiburg. I think Leipzig is being over-hyped. And as you said good teams might figure out their playing style this season. You can defend them and Bayern, BvB and others will.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> He also finished lower than Klopp in the league standings.




In Tuchel's first season, they were on pace to break Klopp's club record for points set in 2012 until the last two meaningless matches. The problem is that Bayern had become a ~90 point team instead of a ~70 point team.


----------



## Live in the Now

Schalke being Schalke.


----------



## Bon Esprit

"Der WanderhÃ¼ne" scores.


----------



## Bon Esprit

I can't believe it 6 point vs. relegation.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> Yeah, cinderella season could be tough to swallow. Part of it is they play counter much better than have possession and plenty of teams will be wary of them.




Agreed. Hassenhuttl is a brave coach, but he's not anywhere near as good at organizing possession as he is organizing their pressing. Schalke showed last week how toothless they become when a team can play their way out of trouble & negate RB's pressing. This season will tell us a lot about Hassenhuttl and how far he can really take those boys



Live in the Now said:


> Schalke being Schalke.




This.


----------



## Albatros

Deficient Mode said:


> So Watzke gets credit for all the financial success of the club AND for finding a good managerial replacement (doubt he knew who Bosz was 6 months ago), but Tuchel gets zero credit for his results or for the money he secured for both Mainz and Dortmund through his results?
> 
> I don't know what "real transformation" you expect out of Mainz. They have one of the smallest stadiums in the league and one of the smallest fan bases. Their ceiling as a club is nowhere near Dortmund's. Tuchel did help improve their financial and competitive position though. They made a fair amount of money off player transfers during his time from players he developed, and he kept them out of the relegation picture. Most managers start "running in circles" at the end of five years in charge.
> 
> I don't know what "real transformation" you expect out of Dortmund either. After they grew into the second best club in Germany, they really didn't have anywhere noticeable to go up. Tuchel brought them their first real trophy in five years and had two successful years in charge. All they can hope for at this point is for Bayern to have an off year and maybe have some luck in the CL if they want to win a bigger trophy. Same as Klopp's last three years.




Watzke made Dortmund one of the top clubs in Europe within a few years, he inherited disastrous finances and a mediocre squad. Klopp brought in the inspiration that was necessary for the success that followed, but without Watzke it would never have been possible.

Tuchel gets credit for knowing football tactics very well. He doesn't get credit for man management. That makes him an unbalanced manager that will always struggle to succeed in a job for long unless he eventually changes his ways. Although I would love to see him at FC Bayern with all the alpha males, that would be an interesting experiment.

Their stadium might not be huge, but even so Mainz is 11th in attendance in the Bundesliga. So finishing mid table should be the minimum expectation even from that perspective. They have overtaken Kaiserslautern already long ago in the region, not that I'd expect them to win the league, cup, and play in the Champions League too, but still establishing the club as a regular European qualifier (and with more success there than until now) should be within the realm of the possible. Whether Kaluza is the right man to enable that I have no idea.

For Dortmund the minimum expectation was and still is to seriously challenge Bayern every season, winning from time to time. One DFB-Pokal is not overachieving. As for the player development, Mislintat deserves a lot of credit for that and if he stays in Dortmund it will without a doubt continue as strong as ever. The dynasty in Munich may also not prove eternal, already this season they're weakened by the departures of characters like Lahm and Alonso that are impossible to fully replace.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> Watzke made Dortmund one of the top clubs in Europe within a few years, he inherited disastrous finances and a mediocre squad. Klopp brought in the inspiration that was necessary for the success that followed, but without Watzke it would never have been possible.




How naive. Watzke isn't the one generating the money or changing the squad. The scouting staff finding discounts and Klopp's charisma and tactical success are the two factors driving revenue. They can have the biggest stadium in Germany but their finances wouldn't be any better than Schalke's or Hamburg's if they didn't have a successful run on the field. 



Albatros said:


> Tuchel gets credit for knowing football tactics very well. He doesn't get credit for man management. That makes him an unbalanced manager that will always struggle to succeed in a job for long unless he eventually changes his ways. Although I would love to see him at FC Bayern with all the alpha males, that would be an interesting experiment.




Again, even the best managers rarely last at one place longer than three years. There is zero evidence that he is any worse in that regard.




Albatros said:


> For Dortmund the minimum expectation was and still is to seriously challenge Bayern every season, winning from time to time. One DFB-Pokal is not overachieving. As for the player development, Mislintat deserves a lot of credit for that and if he stays in Dortmund it will without a doubt continue as strong as ever. The dynasty in Munich may also not prove eternal, already this season they're weakened by the departures of characters like Lahm and Alonso that are impossible to fully replace.




Well then Klopp was failing by that measure too his last three seasons here, and you should judge his last three seasons as harshly as you judged Tuchel's end at Mainz. They were nowhere close to Bayern those years. Klopp's best team was still well behind the Bayern teams of the past 5 seasons in points. It's a stupid double standard.


----------



## cgf

Yeah, Watzke gets a lot more credit in that rebuild than he deserves. Kloppo and his introduction of highly organized, Guardiola-esque pressing to German football had a much bigger impact on BVB's rise and ability to withstand departures, integrate new pieces than Watzke. While Mislintat & Zorc did more in identifying the talents for Kloppo to develop & integrate. And Bayern's relative weakness before the treble season can not be ignored when talking about trying to compete with the machine they became from Jupp's final season through Pep's tenure. 

And for all of the good Wtzke did during their rise; his penny pinching has kept them from being able to better keep pace with Bayern's juggernaut since their re-birth...outside of Tuchel's first season, when BVB almost set a record high in points and so was able to keep within shouting distance of Bayern. Nevermind Watzke's role in Tuchel's departure. Kudos to him being able to pull Bosz away from Ajax to replace Tuchel, but that was terribly handled by everyone and Watzke left the ordeal with mud on his face as well.

Watzke was the guy they needed at the top when the club almost went bankrupt, but he's no longer the man for the job. His frugality & lack of ambition are holding the club back from taking the next step that he has brought them to.


----------



## Albatros

Deficient Mode said:


> How naive. Watzke isn't the one generating the money or changing the squad. The scouting staff finding discounts and Klopp's charisma and tactical success are the two factors driving revenue. They can have the biggest stadium in Germany but their finances wouldn't be any better than Schalke's or Hamburg's if they didn't have a successful run on the field.




They weren't successful on the field until Watzke initiated the reform process that saved them from bankruptcy and made them the successful club both on and off the field that they are today. Klopp and others contributed, but the concept was Watzkes.

http://www.zeit.de/news/2015-03/13/fussball-vor-zehn-jahren-bvb-rettung-in-letzter-minute-13095206



> Again, even the best managers rarely last at one place longer than three years. There is zero evidence that he is any worse in that regard.




Well, Klopp left Mainz like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCXEdZs0i5w

And Dortmund...






Tuchel had a very different departure in both cases. I don't know why one should expect anything different at his next club.



> Well then Klopp was failing by that measure too his last three seasons here, and you should judge his last three seasons as harshly as you judged Tuchel's end at Mainz. They were nowhere close to Bayern those years. Klopp's best team was still well behind the Bayern teams of the past 5 seasons in points. It's a stupid double standard.




Klopp's final season in Dortmund may have been something of a failure, but that came after two league titles, a cup win, and a Champions League final appearance. Tuchel never won anything in professional football except that DFB-Pokal (after having lost the room). Now he is again unemployed, Klopp never was. That's not only because of Klopp's endorsement deals with Warsteiner or Opel.


----------



## cgf

All of that Silverware was ages ago now. In an entirely different Bundesliga era, before Bayern took themselves to an entirely different level. Those Kloppo title teams wouldn't win a thing against Jupp's Treble winners or Pep's boys. You can't just ignore that and point to those years for Klopp while ignoring the next three years where he couldn't win a thing. Just like you can't keep ignoring that in Tuchel's first season they almost set a record for points and still didn't force the title race to go to the final match day.

None of us are arguing that Tuchel is as likeable & popular as Kloppo; but he is the better & more tactically versatile coach. And for all of the ugliness of his departure, and the turnover the team was dealing with in his final season, those boys never quit on him. So who cares if he and management didn't get along if he was still getting absolutely everything his players had to give, out of them?


Anyways this all started with me responding to his hypothetical appoint to the head gig at my club, which might just be the single biggest symbol of home & where I am from that I have here in america. So let me make it abundantly clear where this fan of the Eisern stands on that hypothetical:

Even if I knew for a fact that Tuchel wouldn't be given the freedom & support by my weird club to just do his thing & be happy...meaning that his departure, on similar terms to how he left BVB, was guaranteed 3+ years down the line...I'd still happily swap Keller for him on the very day that Keller won us promotion to the 1st division if that was what I had to do get Tuchel behind our bench. If we gain promotion I will worship Jens Keller and tell my grandkids about the miracle he achieved; but I would be ecstatic to see him ruthlessly tossed aside for Tuchel right at the moment of Keller's greatest triumph, as he made the impossible happen. 

The difference in class is just too blatant and the impact of having Tuchel mold the footballing thinking of our club for years to come would be worth it...nevermind the boon it would be for us in recruitment; i.e. sure we poached Hartel from Koln, but we lost out on Neuhaus to BMG. I bet if Tuchel were on our bench instead of Keller we would've stood a much better shot against Eberl and boring old Hecking.


----------



## Albatros

Jupp's team was special, I'm not sure if the current Bayern squad is. Soon they will have to replace Robben and RibÃ©ry, and that will not be very easy even with their resources. I wouldn't be surprised if Lewandowski will want to play in another big league still as well, he's already 29 and does not have that many good years left.

As for Tuchel, the cup final was a tactically weak performance against an even weaker Frankfurt team, and he spent it arguing about Şahin with his own captain. If that's his magnum opus then it's definitely rather meh. If anything the team played for itself, not for Tuchel. Ironically Tuchel's golden boy DembÃ©lÃ© left much the same way Tuchel himself has always left.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> Jupp's team was special, I'm not sure if the current Bayern squad is. Soon they will have to replace Robben and RibÃ©ry, and that will not be very easy even with their resources. I wouldn't be surprised if Lewandowski will want to play in another big league still as well, he's already 29 and does not have that many good years left.
> 
> As for Tuchel, the cup final was a tactically weak performance against an even weaker Frankfurt team, and he spent it arguing about Şahin with his own captain. If that's his magnum opus then it's definitely rather meh. If anything the team played for itself, not for Tuchel. Ironically Tuchel's golden boy DembÃ©lÃ© left much the same way Tuchel himself has always left.




This whole Bayern team was on pace for 90 points for 4 seasons straight, and only let up one season and gave up a bunch of points in their last meaningless matches because they had secured the title in record time. Even last year's unremarkable team hit a points mark that no club other than Bayern of the past 5 years has ever hit in the Bundesliga.

Dembele was the whole club's golden boy. Just because Dembele liked him and didn't want the coach to change doesn't mean Tuchel gave him anything he didn't deserve.

lol at you trying to discount his Pokal win.

This is a sport where revenue is driven by success on the field. Watzke saved them from bankruptcy, but it was their on the field success that drove revenues through the roof. Considering they were still a midtable club at best when Klopp came in, it's pretty hilarious that you try to frame Watzke as the mastermind and main source of the club's growth. Or that Tuchel taking time off is somehow a sign that he is a poisonous coach. Klopp was out of work for half a year after he left Dortmund too. I suppose it was because he was poisonous that he didn't immediately go back to work, right?


----------



## Albatros

Deficient Mode said:


> This whole Bayern team was on pace for 90 points for 4 seasons straight, and only let up one season and gave up a bunch of points in their last meaningless matches because they had secured the title in record time. Even last year's unremarkable team hit a points mark that no club other than Bayern of the past 5 years has ever hit in the Bundesliga.




So? Past success doesn't guarantee future success especially if the key players behind that success are gone, Bayern has done a lot of underwhelming acquisitions the last years and have arguably lost in quality already. That is not to say that they're inevitably going down, maybe they will master the transition just fine, but so far they don't have good enough replacements for the players they've already lost or about to lose next summer. If that will lead to worse performances even just in the Champions League, the FC Hollywood may return in no time. They're lucky to have Ancelotti right now, but even he can do only so much.



> Dembele was the whole club's golden boy. Just because Dembele liked him and didn't want the coach to change doesn't mean Tuchel gave him anything he didn't deserve.




Of course not, but the DembÃ©lÃ© saga shows what such divisions within the club can lead to even after the coach is already gone. If the atmosphere within the club turns poisonous, it does take more than just firing the primary culprits to get things back to normal. Thanks to Neymar getting rid of DembÃ©lÃ© wasn't that bad for Dortmund in the end, but that was just a lucky coincidence.



> This is a sport where revenue is driven by success on the field. Watzke saved them from bankruptcy, but it was their on the field success that drove revenues through the roof. Considering they were still a midtable club at best when Klopp came in, it's pretty hilarious that you try to frame Watzke as the mastermind and main source of the club's growth. Or that Tuchel taking time off is somehow a sign that he is a poisonous coach. Klopp was out of work for half a year after he left Dortmund too. I suppose it was because he was poisonous that he didn't immediately go back to work, right?




Klopp too was hired by Watzke, so he absolutely deserves credit for that (as well as the responsibility for bringing in Tuchel). Overall he has done an excellent job running BVB.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> So? Past success doesn't guarantee future success especially if the key players behind that success are gone, Bayern has done a lot of underwhelming acquisitions the last years and have arguably lost in quality already. That is not to say that they're inevitably going down, maybe they will master the transition just fine, but so far they don't have good enough replacements for the players they've already lost or about to lose next summer. If that will lead to worse performances even just in the Champions League, the FC Hollywood may return in no time. They're lucky to have Ancelotti right now, but even he can do only so much.




Well Bayern were a historically great Bundesliga team for Tuchel's entire BVB tenure. That's the point.




Albatros said:


> Of course not, but the DembÃ©lÃ© saga shows what such divisions within the club can lead to even after the coach is already gone. If the atmosphere within the club turns poisonous, it does take more than just firing the primary culprits to get things back to normal. Thanks to Neymar getting rid of DembÃ©lÃ© wasn't that bad for Dortmund in the end, but that was just a lucky coincidence.




Wow. So Dembele wanting to leave was Tuchel's fault too? Even though you know, he would have been more likely to stay if the other players hadn't had a fit and turned against Tuchel? Unbelievable. You know he pulled a very similar stunt in Rennes too? 

Thanks to Neymar? lol if any club wanted Dembele this summer they would have had to pay what Barcelona paid. The whole footballing world knows he's a Ballon d'Or winning talent with four years left on his contract. Thanks to Neymar Barcelona were very keen to get Dembele this summer, and he went on strike to force the move. Dembele leaving actually is pretty bad for Dortmund. Unbelievable that I have to spell this out to the kneejerk reactionaries, but they aren't going to find another player close to as good in a week. Fans who'd rather lose their best player than allow a half disloyal player back into the squad at the obvious cost of the club's success are repulsive. 

Watzke made extremely obvious in-demand coaching choices except for Bosz. Klopp and Tuchel are doing far more to increase the club's revenue than Watzke. Far more.


----------



## Nalens Oga

I see this thread has been hijacked into Bundesliga gossip again.

Anyone actually see the Schalke match and know why they ****ed up?


----------



## Live in the Now

Nalens Oga said:


> I see this thread has been hijacked into Bundesliga gossip again.
> 
> Anyone actually see the Schalke match and know why they ****ed up?




Messing around with the ball at the back, then they pass it lazily to Hannover who immediately center the ball for a goal. 

Then Harit does a Coutinho turn and runs up the field for 50 yards to create a chance and they took him off. I thought that was funny.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nalens Oga said:


> I see this thread has been hijacked into Bundesliga gossip again.
> 
> Anyone actually see the Schalke match and know why they ****ed up?




This is the Bundesliga thread though??? No idea why it's hijacking. 

Schalke didn't really **** up. They aren't a clean or sophisticated offensive team at the moment. Hannover shut down their primary attacking strategies and they really didn't have any alternatives. Their win vs RBL wasn't exactly an offensive fireworks display either. They aren't bad defensively however.


----------



## Albatros

DembÃ©lÃ© is responsible for his own actions, but it is not normal to keep arguing about a fired coach within the club over the summer when the new man is in already.

He may be a talented player, but also a personality so immature that his departure was necessary to pacify the situation. I don't think Pulisic or Bartra will ever cause similar problems despite having their own opinions.

This season Yarmolenko will serve Dortmund just fine, of course the talent pool still has a huge hole but I think what the potential replacements will see is that a guy just got a 100+ million transfer to Barcelona which will not lessen Dortmund's ability to attract top talent in the future.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> This season Yarmolenko will serve Dortmund just fine, of course the talent pool still has a huge hole but I think what the potential replacements will see is that a guy just got a 100+ million transfer to Barcelona which will not lessen Dortmund's ability to attract top talent in the future.




Hopefully they don't also see that they can force their way out of the club after just one year if they really want to.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Hopefully they don't also see that they can force their way out of the club after just one year if they really want to.




Of course they will, what other lesson could they possibly learn from the Dembele situation? But that should actually make it even easier for you to pull in the top prospects who are about to break out at the senior level.


----------



## jniklast

cgf said:


> Of course they will, what other lesson could they possibly learn from the Dembele situation? But that should actually make it even easier for you to pull in the top prospects who are about to break out at the senior level.




But the club buying them will also have to absolutely want them as Dortmund won't sell for cheap. That has become obvious with the Dembele transfer as well.


----------



## cgf

jniklast said:


> But the club buying them will also have to absolutely want them as Dortmund won't sell for cheap. That has become obvious with the Dembele transfer as well.




Eh. Dembele wasn't sold for cheap, but BVB didn't exactly squeeze a painful sum out of Barca to make the uber-giants hesitant about swooping back in, should they want someone else from that team next summer. 

Hell even Auba wasn't set to draw an insane fee and he was getting bids from China...70M would be a good fee for Auba, but it's not exorbitant in this market; it's not even what the fee for Belotti will be...and though I love Belotti and think he's a more well rounded striker than Auba that I do rate higher, he's not proven outside of Italy. Whereas the clinicalness in-front of goal that Auba has developed with Dortmund has shown that it translates to the CL as well as the AFCON. 

So even with the age difference selling Auba for 30-40M less than Belotti will go for, and just a little more than Lacazette went for, is in no way a hinderance to the Barca / Bayern / Real / Citeh / PSG's of the world. Just like selling Dembele for 130+ won't scare any of them away from the next great starlet that Watzke ends up selling.


----------



## jniklast

With Auba I am sure they had an agreement that he was allowed to go if a club was ready to pay some sum (which was higher than 70M). And in the end nobody paid it, so it obviously was high enough to keep him.

And yes 135+ is a lot for a player. With no Neymar deal, Barca wouldn't have paid it and Bayern for sure wouldn't. I doubt any club would've been ready to pay that this summer under normal circumstances.

I mean what are you suggesting even? That Dortmund never sell? That's simply unrealistic. Also to say Watzke was penny pinching and that prevented Dortmund from competing with Bayern is just ridiculous. At what point should Dortmund have spent more and had the money for it? They have gradually increased the budget and are now at 140M player salaries, so that's hardly penny pinching. Unfortunately Bayern still have 50% more available with a 200+ budget. And that will probably never change.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Watzke should have given the extra salary money to Mkhi rather than Reus. And yes, he has been overly willing to sell players at times.

Some club would have bought Dembele for a similar fee next summer imo.


----------



## jniklast

Deficient Mode said:


> Watzke should have given the extra salary money to Mkhi rather than Reus. And yes, he has been overly willing to sell players at times.
> 
> Some club would have bought Dembele for a similar fee next summer imo.




Even if he did, I doubt Mkhi would've stayed when United wanted to sign him. BVB simply cannot compete with a few clubs financially. Plus you cannot just pay one player much more than the others. I am pretty sure that they offered Reus money to Mkhitaryan (same for Hummels), but he (and Raiola) just wanted to go.

Also when was he overly willing to sell players? Before Dembele the last first team player Dortmund willingly sold earlier than one year before the end of his contract was Petric in 2008. The other either had a release clause (they learned from that and don't accept them anymore) or pretty much had to be sold because their contract was running out. So who was sold that shouldn't have been?


----------



## Deficient Mode

jniklast said:


> Even if he did, I doubt Mkhi would've stayed when United wanted to sign him. BVB simply cannot compete with a few clubs financially. Plus you cannot just pay one player much more than the others. I am pretty sure that they offered Reus money to Mkhitaryan (same for Hummels), but he (and Raiola) just wanted to go.
> 
> Also when was he overly willing to sell players? Before Dembele the last first team player Dortmund willingly sold earlier than one year before the end of his contract was Petric in 2008. The other either had a release clause (they learned from that and don't accept them anymore) or pretty much had to be sold because their contract was running out. So who was sold that shouldn't have been?




I sort of don't think Mkhitaryan was offered the same money as Reus. Reus was paid far more than any Dortmund player in 2015-16 even though he was well behind Mkhi, Hummels, and GÃ¼ndogan in importance. Maybe if they had offered Mkhitaryan a higher salary they could have persuaded him not to want a release clause in his contract. Easy to put the blame exclusively on Raiola but they had been in contract renewal talks long before the relationship between Raiola and United apparently materialized, and Mkhitaryan was an afterthought for United and Mourinho after Pogba and Zlatan: someone whom they bought as part of the Raiola package. Him going to United was not inevitable at all. 

It's more a matter of not renewing players' contracts. Of course if you let them all run out to just one year, you can say you were forced.


----------



## jniklast

Deficient Mode said:


> I sort of don't think Mkhitaryan was offered the same money as Reus. Reus was paid far more than any Dortmund player in 2015-16 even though he was well behind Mkhi, Hummels, and GÃ¼ndogan in importance. Maybe if they had offered Mkhitaryan a higher salary they could have persuaded him not to want a release clause in his contract. Easy to put the blame exclusively on Raiola but they had been in contract renewal talks long before the relationship between Raiola and United apparently materialized, and Mkhitaryan was an afterthought for United and Mourinho after Pogba and Zlatan: someone whom they bought as part of the Raiola package. Him going to United was not inevitable at all.
> 
> It's more a matter of not renewing players' contracts. Of course if you let them all run out to just one year, you can say you were forced.




I doubt that he was penny pinching with Mkhitaryan, there are no reports for that, the talks broke down apparently over the release clause which was refused by Dortmund. Of course at some salary they might've been ready to leave it out, but I don't think it was attainable for Dortmund.

With GÃ¼ndogan and Hummels there never was a chance to extend further, they wanted to leave either way.

Really in the end it's maybe Mkhitaryan who could've been extended, but for all others that left there was pretty much no chance. I mean just look at the clubs they went to, it's a very elite few that are above Dortmund and there's not much BVB can do about that.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Hummels apparently left because Mkhi and GÃ¼ndogan were also leaving. That's the problem with talking about these in isolation: letting one guy go because of money makes it more likely that all the other players will leave as well.


----------



## jniklast

Deficient Mode said:


> Hummels apparently left because Mkhi and GÃ¼ndogan were also leaving. That's the problem with talking about these in isolation: letting one guy go because of money makes it more likely that all the other players will leave as well.




Hummels left because he wanted to go back to Munich, nowhere did I read that he left because of the other two. Also GÃ¼ndogan leaving had been clear for two years (only his injury prevented it) and Mkhitaryan left after Hummels.

But in any case, even if maybe the contract with Mkhitaryan could've been extended if Dortmund had paid as much as realistically possible, that's still the only one. To call Watzke penny pinching or overly willing to sell players is just ridiculous and not supported by facts.


----------



## Deficient Mode

jniklast said:


> Hummels left because he wanted to go back to Munich, nowhere did I read that he left because of the other two. Also GÃ¼ndogan leaving had been clear for two years (only his injury prevented it) and Mkhitaryan left after Hummels.
> 
> But in any case, even if maybe the contract with Mkhitaryan could've been extended if Dortmund had paid as much as realistically possible, that's still the only one. To call Watzke penny pinching or overly willing to sell players is just ridiculous and not supported by facts.




Link


> Es gab fÃ¼r beide Seiten so unglaublich viele GrÃ¼nde, und ich mÃ¶chte jetzt nicht mehr alle einzeln aufdrÃ¶seln. Am Ende wusste ich relativ frÃ¼h, dass Ilkay (GÃ¼ndogan, d. Red.) geht und ich wusste auch von Mickis (Henrikh Mkhitaryan, d. Red.) Absichten. Das hat auch mit reingespielt.




Players are far more likely not to leave year after year if their best teammates don't do the same every summer. Offering better salaries helps you keep your players longer, which improves your stability of your results from year to year and keeps the top quality of your team higher.

Consider the contrast between Dortmund and Atletico Madrid. Atletico haven't been forced to sell any of their stars in several years despite having lower revenue than Dortmund. It's a difference in culture in part.


----------



## Evilo

Atletico players would never to Real the way Gotze, Lewandowski and Hummels went to Bayern. Never.
Atletico players would only leave for abroad (Falcao, Costa).
Cultural difference here really. Theo Hernandez is the first in years to do that and he never played for Atletico.


----------



## jniklast

Deficient Mode said:


> Link
> 
> 
> Players are far more likely not to leave year after year if their best teammates don't do the same every summer. Offering better salaries helps you keep your players longer, which improves your stability of your results from year to year and keeps the top quality of your team higher.
> 
> Consider the contrast between Dortmund and Atletico Madrid. Atletico haven't been forced to sell any of their stars in several years despite having lower revenue than Dortmund. It's a difference in culture in part.




Ok, so what exactly should Watzke do differently? Right now Dortmund is spending more of it's revenue on player salary than Bayern already. So I'd say the salaries offered are about as good as possible with Dortmund's finances. The last time they spent more than they should it almost ended in disaster, so I can't blame Watzke for not taking on debt just to finance higher salaries (something Atletico did).

And Atletico also sold a lot of players: AgÃ¼ero, De Gea, Falcao, Diego Costa, Filipe Luis, Arda Turan and now Theo Hernandez. Plus Courtois whom they only loaned. That's very comparable to Dortmund. Granted apart from Theo they didn't sell to their direct rival, but Dortmund only willingly sold Hummels to Bayern. But then again Bayern is not a historical rival like Atletico and Real are.


----------



## cgf

With BVB's profits Watzke wouldn't need to take on any debt to raise the wage bill enough to be better able to entice players to stay for longer. Sure they'd still end up having to sell players, but there's a big difference between getting 1 season out of Dembele & getting 5 years out of Auba.

And looking at those Athletico names is valuable, but more valuable is looking at when they were sold. BVB have 4 of their top 5 (or 6 if you're counting healthy-Reus) players in the past year & a half.


----------



## les Habs

Evilo said:


> Atletico players would never to Real the way Gotze, Lewandowski and Hummels went to Bayern. Never.
> Atletico players would only leave for abroad (Falcao, Costa).
> Cultural difference here really. Theo Hernandez is the first in years to do that and he never played for Atletico.




I think some Atleti players would, but not necessarily too many. Not like they swap BVB for Bayern anyway. Lucas Hernandez for sure. Koke' not a chance.


----------



## jniklast

cgf said:


> With BVB's profits Watzke wouldn't need to take on any debt to raise the wage bill enough to be better able to entice players to stay for longer. Sure they'd still end up having to sell players, but there's a big difference between getting 1 season out of Dembele & getting 5 years out of Auba.
> 
> And looking at those Athletico names is valuable, but more valuable is looking at when they were sold. BVB have 4 of their top 5 (or 6 if you're counting healthy-Reus) players in the past year & a half.




They are already spending a bigger share of their revenue on salaries than Bayern. There is just a limit where it stops being healthy, so there isn't much room for more. And in any case, Dembele wouldn't have stayed for a bigger salary.

Well, if you pick this certain time frame it looks bad for BVB, but Atletico will likely lose Griezman in the next window for example. Overall I'd say they are pretty similar. Although Atletico has been more successful in the last few years for sure.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Thing is, for being supposedly such a 'special' club they sure don't seem to get any loyalty bonus from their players. Seems like they've just morphed into the Eton of development clubs i.e. quite fancy and shiny but at the end of the day just a station on the route to bigger and better things.


----------



## Cin

I see a lot of Lewa's game in how Yarmolenko plays. I think he's going to be a tremendous weapon for us. Can hold the ball up, great range, fast, and he's huge. Hard not to like that.


----------



## cgf

Cin said:


> I see a lot of Lewa's game in how Yarmolenko plays. I think he's going to be a tremendous weapon for us. Can hold the ball up, great range, fast, and he's huge. Hard not to like that.




There's a reason I've been b****ing about him playing on the wing instead of up front all decade. I don't think he has quite that high a level in him; but he could've become an excellent forward and could end up making a huge impact when Auba is sold.


----------



## Deficient Mode

It made sense to play him as a winger when he was younger I think. i don't see the Lewandowski comparison.


----------



## Cin

cgf said:


> There's a reason I've been b****ing about him playing on the wing instead of up front all decade. I don't think he has quite that high a level in him; but he could've become an excellent forward and could end up making a huge impact when Auba is sold.




Definitely not the same level of course. But there's a lot of similarities if he plays up front.


----------



## WhiskeySeven*

Why did Schalke sell Howedes and are Schalkeistas upset?


----------



## Vipers31

WhiskeySeven said:


> Why did Schalke sell Howedes and are Schalkeistas upset?




Tedesco doesn't seem to rate him. Stripped him off the captaincy and played Nastasic, Naldo and Kehrer over him. I mean, you know Schalke - it's never really quiet over there, but this move certainly doesn't help to unite the fans behind a young inexperienced coach that hasn't made a name for himself, unlike HÃ¶wedes. The "tree" from the German phrase isn't exactly burning just yet, but this whole thing has definitely left a puddle of gasoline under it. The next few games could light that thing up easily.


----------



## cgf

Howedes has long been over-rated. Finally cashing in on him is a wise decision.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Anyone know anything about Toljan or Jadon Sancho that BVB recently signed? Literally never heard of them myself.


----------



## Savant

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Anyone know anything about Toljan or Jadon Sancho that BVB recently signed? Literally never heard of them myself.




Sancho is the best prospect England has.


----------



## cgf

Savant said:


> Sancho is the best prospect England has.




To add to this, he seems like what BVB was hoping for with Mor.

And Toljan is a decent young german FB/WB. He's left footed but plays both sides. He covers a lot of ground and has good speed. Solid skills; but he's not a stand out and isn't particularly good at driving forward with the ball or in the final third. He's basically a more skilled & healthier, left footed Durm. Should be a decent fill in this season but he won't replace Raphael or Passlack in the future.


----------



## YNWA14

Yeah Sancho has it all. Vision, dribbling, technique, athleticism, finish and confidence. Maybe a bit too much confidence. If he's handled properly he will become a star.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Hopefully Sancho can follow a Pulisic type of path where he gets a few games this season, next season he's a regular member of the team with some starts, and the next year he has a breakout season.

Toljan was bought to push Piszczek who had an awful season. He can also fill in at LB, RM, LM, maybe CB, so he's a versatile player, not the best player, but a RB with some versatility.


----------



## Savant

Looking for a German team. 

Don't want Bayern, Dortmund or Leverkusen. Doesn't have to be a star team, but I don't want to have to worry about relegation. A possible vacation destination would be nice. Team that makes sensible transfers, not signing random dudes from random countries because they can. 

Any ideas?


----------



## SJSharks72

Savant said:


> Looking for a German team.
> 
> Don't want Bayern, Dortmund or Leverkusen. Doesn't have to be a star team, but I don't want to have to worry about relegation. A possible vacation destination would be nice. Team that makes sensible transfers, not signing random dudes from random countries because they can.
> 
> Any ideas?




I would say Schalke because it seems like they are kind of turning it around. They are also entertaining management wise and if they aren't your main team then great


----------



## YNWA14

I've picked up RBL and it's an easy team to like. Money backed, new, exciting play and young with lots of potential and they have our Keita for one more season.


----------



## jniklast

Savant said:


> Looking for a German team.
> 
> Don't want Bayern, Dortmund or Leverkusen. Doesn't have to be a star team, but I don't want to have to worry about relegation. A possible vacation destination would be nice. Team that makes sensible transfers, not signing random dudes from random countries because they can.
> 
> Any ideas?




Cologne could be a good pick. They started bad this year though, but otherwise they check all boxes. Sensible transfers since Schmadtke and Steer are there, had a good season last year (will play in the Europa League) and a great city for vacation (something where Schalke fails completely).

Or if you want better football with a chance for CL qualification I'd recommend Gladbach. That would be at the cost of a smaller and less exciting city, but if you ever want to visit a game, you could still stay at Cologne or DÃ¼sseldorf, both are close to Gladbach.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I'd advise Schalke, big club that could rise again. A bonus that they got a few Americans in the fold. Many won't care, but you are a US fan, so maybe you would. 

They have a lot of talent in their squad, they just struggle to get it to mesh well together, and part of that is the rotating cast of coaches.


----------



## jniklast

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I'd advise Schalke, big club that could rise again. A bonus that they got a few Americans in the fold.
> 
> They have a lot of talent in their squad, they just struggle to get it to mesh well together, and part of that is the rotating cast of coaches.




And you're supposed to be a BVB supporter?  

I'd rather take Gladbach. Imo they have more talent then Schalke by now (and Schalke will likely lose Goretzka and Meyer next year) and you just don't want to spend any vacation in Gelsenkirchen.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

jniklast said:


> And you're supposed to be a BVB supporter?
> 
> I'd rather take Gladbach. Imo they have more talent then Schalke by now (and Schalke will likely lose Goretzka and Meyer next year) and you just don't want to spend any vacation in Gelsenkirchen.




Gotta be fair. They have a lot of talent at Schalke. And the rivalries are always way more important to locals than out of country fans who just happen to like the club. With sports like American Football and Baseball growing up, I cared about the rivalries so I could have bragging rights over my friends, and wouldn't have to hear taunting about it. I'm sure thats how it is in the Ruhr Valley with these two clubs. I don't hate Schalke, just don't root for them against Dortmund. I'm also more sympathetic to them than the average Dortmund fan because they have three young Americans on their books, three good ones at that who could be playing for the USA National Team soon enough, so I'm always going to root for the success of my countrymen, country over club when it comes to football for me, although thats not to say I would root for them over Dortmund, just that I root for the success of American players. I'm hoping Schalke can get into the Champions League this season, although obviously I'm rooting for Dortmund to win the league.

Savant can take whoever he wants. I personally think Schalke has more talent than Gladbach, along with more resources to have more talent in the future. Maybe this is a weird reason to be suspicious of Gladbach, but given that it seems like Ginter has become a big part of their team so quickly, that gives me pause to thinking they could qualify for Europe this season. I think they've kind of hit their ceiling in recent seasons. I'm not sure I'd pick any of these clubs based on vacationing. No offense to any of y'all that live in Germany, but that would not be my first destination to vacation to, regardless of where in Germany it is. Germany is just not my idea of a vacation. Among European countries, Spain, Portugal, Southern France are my idea of that. Koln isn't a bad shout though, another could be Hoffenheim, although with Savant being a Liverpool fan, I'm not sure a Liverpool fan would be too impressed with Hoffenheim the last few weeks.


----------



## jniklast

He asked about vacationing, Germany surely wouldn't be my first pick for that in Europe either, but if he wants to come here, Cologne is infinitely better than Gelsenkirchen.

I don't think Schalke's team by now is anything special. They really lost a lot of talent in the last years and it looks like it continues with Goretzka and Meyer next year. Of course Tedesco could really surprise and get more out of the team, but right now I think Gladbach has the more talented squad.


----------



## Just Win

Savant said:


> Looking for a German team.
> 
> Don't want Bayern, Dortmund or Leverkusen. Doesn't have to be a star team, but I don't want to have to worry about relegation. A possible vacation destination would be nice. Team that makes sensible transfers, not signing random dudes from random countries because they can.
> 
> Any ideas?




Freiburg could be another option for you.


----------



## Theokritos

Savant said:


> Looking for a German team.




Too much money at your hand? 

I guess that's how those sheiks and other billionaires get started. "Looking for an English team. Is ManCity already taken?"


----------



## cgf

BMG & Werder are the two most likeable first division teams. Outside of those two Hoffenheim, BVB, Leipzig, Schalke, & Freiburg are the most interesting and/or play the most appealing football.


----------



## Vipers31

Cologne and Freiburg as already mentioned are good picks, but there is always a chance for some relegation battle there. Stuttgart would be pretty decent for vacation potential and has new management with great potential - as a newly promoted side, they're still at risk for now, but they made some solid upside to be more of a EL contender in a couple years, I'd say. 

As a Colognian, I can't go against recommending Cologne, though. It's a great place to go, one of the most passionate fanbases around, a neat arena, easy-on-the-ears anthem (better well-stolen than badly invented), and good management - for now. It's part of the nature of this club that it always seems within reach of implosion. Can be tough on the nerves, but it appears to make every victory mean more, as well.


----------



## cgf

Koln aren't attractive to watch tho


----------



## YNWA14

I did actually enjoy watching Hoffenheim against Liverpool. They play nice football and have some decent talents on the team. Do they have a good youth academy?

For me I think if I'm picking up a team from another league I want it to be a team with sustainability in the sense of bringing through new talents. I've always enjoyed that aspect most of following the Eredivisie and it's why I subscribe to Liverpool TV.

I feel RBL, while backed monetarily, also have a sustainable youth model.


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> BMG & Werder are the two most likeable first division teams. Outside of those two Hoffenheim, BVB, Leipzig, Schalke, & Freiburg are the most interesting and/or play the most appealing football.




Bremen? lol.
Schalke is a good choiche if you are a fan of self destruction and masochism.
Gladbach is a good choice. If you don't care about tradition Leipzig, Hoffenheim. Freiburg is everybody's darling and their manager is pure gold but really insane.

I'd watch a couple of games and then make my choice.


----------



## Savant

What cities make the best beer?

Is there a team not represented well on this forum?


----------



## cgf

Curtinho said:


> I did actually enjoy watching Hoffenheim against Liverpool. They play nice football and have some decent talents on the team. Do they have a good youth academy?
> 
> For me I think if I'm picking up a team from another league I want it to be a team with sustainability in the sense of bringing through new talents. I've always enjoyed that aspect most of following the Eredivisie and it's why I subscribe to Liverpool TV.
> 
> I feel RBL, while backed monetarily, also have a sustainable youth model.






Bon Esprit said:


> Bremen? lol.
> Schalke is a good choiche if you are a fan of self destruction and masochism.
> Gladbach is a good choice. If you don't care about tradition Leipzig, Hoffenheim. Freiburg is everybody's darling and their manager is pure gold but really insane.
> 
> I'd watch a couple of games and then make my choice.




I'm not trying to convince you to like werder  But they have a philosophy that promotes attractive football, a high end academy that features the biggest german talent atm (Johannes Eggestein), one of the best characters in german football (Max Kruse) leads their line, and the club has hipster appeal with their general ethos...especially for those of us who remember them as Bayern's greatest rival of the pre Klopp era. Dunno much about the actually town and can't comment on whether the trip would be worth it.

Schalke are a bad club to become a fan of, but an interesting team to follow...especially if Tedesco succeeds. Their vaunted academy with Heidel crafting the roster ensures interesting talents come through, and there's always drama. They'll probably fall off my list of interesting teams by seasons end if Tedesco proves unable to elevate their possession play; but I am intrigued at the moment. Not worth the visit.

BMG is the easy choice IMO, they're not a big money team but they have a huge stadium that they pack, they play attractive football with some very smooth talents...including just an absurd amount of 20 & midfield talent coming through with Benes, Cuisance, Zakaria & Neuhaus...and Eberl is one of the best sporting directors in the game. Though they're in a small town they have Koln & Dusseldorf nearby...where you can stay for the match. 

Hoffenheim are interesting because of Nagelsmann. They have an excellent academy and interesting roster; but Nagelsmann is what makes them must-watch football for me. He has them playing so well and he's one of the coaches you can really learn a lot about possession from watching operate. I am very interested to see how he re-shapes their structure with the ball to overcome the departures they've had. But visiting that village would be a waste of time.

Freiburg are an easy hipster pick with some interesting talent and a great coach; but they'll never play in the CL, relegation fights are always a possibility and it's a small town.

RB is the trickiest for me. I loved that Union helped delay their arrival to the first division by a year; but the way the city of Leipzig has embraced that team, the attacking ethos they have on the pitch, the youth work they've done, the courage Hassenhuttl has displayed, and just the general spark they've given to football in the east; has won me over. I'm not a fan, and I will enjoy any victories Union or Gladbach register against them. I still question Hassenhuttl's ability to elevate their possession play as they face more cautious opposition, but they are worth watching regularly. Plus Leipzig is a revitalized city that is well worth a visit.


----------



## Bon Esprit

I'd never say anything against Bremen as a city. Same size as Hannover, a lot of problems with their economy, but that's not the issue. Werder, as a club, will always have trouble to keep their talents in today's football.
Schalke, as a not not Ruhrpott inhabitant is insane. I'd rather pick BvB.
From the Rhine region Gladbach would be my pick. I don't like the FC, though I like StÃ¶ger and Schmadtke. Bayer and Fortuna, well, not my cup of tea.
Freiburg will never win anything, but somehow they always put a good, young team on the pitch.
Safest (and for the most boring) pick is Bayern. But they'll face a big overhaul the years to come, on and of the pitch.


----------



## Savant

Who on here supports which team?


----------



## cgf

Savant said:


> Who on here supports which team?




It's mostly Dortmund & Bayern fans, with more dortmund fans than bayern fans.

Outside of those clubs: Bon Espirit's a Hannover fan; Just Win's a Leverkusen; there's a Freiburg fan who occasionally posts here; we used to have a Hamburg fan on here; there's a Koln fan who's posted a few times; a full Gladbach fan who occasionally posts here; and I'm a Union Berlin fan.


----------



## Savant

cgf said:


> It's mostly Dortmund & Bayern fans, with more dortmund fans than bayern fans.
> 
> Outside of those clubs: Bon Espirit's a Hannover fan; Just Win's a Leverkusen; there's a Freiburg fan who occasionally posts here; we used to have a Hamburg fan on here; there's a Koln fan who's posted a few times; a full Gladbach fan who occasionally posts here; and I'm a Union Berlin fan.




Thinking about going Bremen or Schalke.


----------



## samabam

cgf said:


> there's a Freiburg fan who occasionally posts here;




hey there 

Well, German Football Part topics are usually just Borussia Dortmund topics and I despise them so no reason to post more


----------



## cgf

Savant said:


> Thinking about going Bremen or Schalke.




Be prepared for the streakiness of a midtable...unless Heidel & Tedesco are the magic partnership that they've been so voraciously looking for 

Gladbach or Leipzig would probably offer the best combination of youth system, attractive style of play, competitiveness, strong management, and a great travel destination to catch a game in their huge stadiums that are regularly packed with lively crowds...just stay in Koln n take the train to the game if you pick BMG.



samabam said:


> hey there
> 
> Well, German Football Part topics are usually just Borussia Dortmund topics and I despise them so no reason to post more




 I was just coming back here to edit your name in after seeing your post in the transfer thread 

But yeah, even though I enjoy the way BVB has played since their rebirth, I thought Tuchel was brilliant & worth studying, and am eager to see what can be learned from Bosz...the only thing more insufferable than Dortmund fans is listening to Dortmund & Bayern fans squabble.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Savant said:


> Thinking about going Bremen or Schalke.




Good god, almost as bad as Hertha or Wolfsburg.

I'd rather pick Hoffenheim instead. At least until Nagelsmann leaves.


----------



## jniklast

Savant said:


> Thinking about going Bremen or Schalke.




Pick Bremen then, better city, better beer.


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> Be prepared for the streakiness of a midtable...unless Heidel & Tedesco are the magic partnership that they've been so voraciously looking for
> 
> Gladbach or Leipzig would probably offer the best combination of youth system, attractive style of play, competitiveness, strong management, and a great travel destination to catch a game in their huge stadiums that are regularly packed with lively crowds...just stay in Koln n take the train to the game if you pick BMG.
> 
> 
> 
> I was just coming back here to edit your name in after seeing your post in the transfer thread
> 
> But yeah, even though I enjoy the way BVB has played since their rebirth, I thought Tuchel was brilliant & worth studying, and am eager to see what can be learned from Bosz...the only thing more insufferable than Dortmund fans is listening to Dortmund & Bayern fans squabble.




Still missing BSHH, he used to be a good poster. And one other poster from Hannover used to post here. Don't remember his nick, but he has a avatar with a funny haircut.


----------



## jniklast

Bon Esprit said:


> Still missing BSHH, he used to be a good poster. And one other poster from Hannover used to post here. Don't remember his nick, but he has a avatar with a funny haircut.




I'm from Hannover as well, but I prefer Dortmund for football


----------



## YNWA14

Is Johannes Eggestein still the biggest German talent? He seems to not have progressed much the last couple of years.


----------



## Just Win

Curtinho said:


> Is Johannes Eggestein still the biggest German talent? He seems to not have progressed much the last couple of years.




He just had his Bundesliga debut against Bayern this weekend and played his first U21 match today (also scored his first goal). Also had some injury problems last season that stalled his developement a bit. The biggest German talent tag probably belongs to Kai Havertz right now after having a very solid first Bundesliga season as 17 year old.


----------



## Bon Esprit

jniklast said:


> I'm from Hannover as well, but I prefer Dortmund for football




nice, we are everywhere.


----------



## Bure80

Curtinho said:


> Is Johannes Eggestein still the biggest German talent? He seems to not have progressed much the last couple of years.




http://indianexpress.com/article/sp...alled-up-for-germanys-under-16-squad-4824409/


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> Still missing BSHH, he used to be a good poster. And one other poster from Hannover used to post here. Don't remember his nick, but he has a avatar with a funny haircut.




I rarely get along with HSV fans because most are so delusional; but agreed.



Curtinho said:


> Is Johannes Eggestein still the biggest German talent? He seems to not have progressed much the last couple of years.




I still think he has the most talent & highest ceiling. He was supposed to reach the senior level towards the end of last season but he's missed most of the past year with injuries, so instead he's just now starting to get some senior team minutes. 



Just Win said:


> He just had his Bundesliga debut against Bayern this weekend and played his first U21 match today (also scored his first goal). Also had some injury problems last season that stalled his developement a bit. The biggest German talent tag probably belongs to Kai Havertz right now after having a very solid first Bundesliga season as 17 year old.




Havertz has more hype now because he's proven he's an exceptional talent at the senior level; but I still think Eggestein has a higher ceiling because of his goalscoring...even if other 98- & 99-ers breakout before him.



Bure80 said:


> http://indianexpress.com/article/sp...alled-up-for-germanys-under-16-squad-4824409/




That kid is a few waves away from that title at this point. Abouchabaka, Mbom & Arp are the biggest talents of the next wave after the late 90s birth years are all established...and Moukoko is working his way up to the wave after that, with Batista Meier (Bayern), Keanu Schneider (Werder), Kaan Kurt (Gladbach), Mika Schroers (Gladbach), Arbnor Aliu (Schalke) & Luca Barata (Gladbach).


----------



## Savant

Going with Bremen. Cool uniforms. I remember Johan Micoud (if I spelled that right) playing for them in my infantile stages of watching. And I will make an effort to have more Beck's in my life.

Seems like Bremen should be represented on here as well. This Thomas Delaney guy seems pretty good. Could have been eligible for USMNT!

Schalke feels a little to easy. Too much mining and I don't need any more blue jerseys (NY Rangers).


----------



## Vipers31

Savant said:


> Going with Bremen. Cool uniforms. I remember Johan Micoud (if I spelled that right) playing for them in my infantile stages of watching. And I will make an effort to have more Beck's in my life.
> 
> Seems like Bremen should be represented on here as well. This Thomas Delaney guy seems pretty good. Could have been eligible for USMNT!
> 
> Schalke feels a little to easy. Too much mining and I don't need any more blue jerseys (NY Rangers).




Bremen is an alright choice, definitely earns more sympathy from me than Schalke.  Either way, looking forward to having another regular Bundesliga follower around over here.


----------



## WhiskeySeven*

Savant said:


> Going with Bremen. Cool uniforms. I remember Johan Micoud (if I spelled that right) playing for them in my infantile stages of watching. And I will make an effort to have more Beck's in my life.
> 
> Seems like Bremen should be represented on here as well. This Thomas Delaney guy seems pretty good. Could have been eligible for USMNT!
> 
> Schalke feels a little to easy. Too much mining and I don't need any more blue jerseys (NY Rangers).



Go for it! Bremen's been very 'mid table' recently but have some interesting players. They went through some dark periods though.

I grew up a Bayern 'fan', it's been just under twenty years now... but being Canadian and having no connection to Germany or Bavaria kinda puts a limit on how much of a 'fan' I can be imo. I no longer consider myself a 'fan' but a moderate supporter of the entire BuLi and partial to Munich. Currently living in London, I enjoy moderately hating and ragging on every EPL team, especially Arsenal, United, City and Spurs . I'm quite partial to Chelsea and Liverpool at the moment. Still have my Ballack Chelsea shirt too - beauty.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Stindl and Hector...bit of a surprise start for those two no? 

Also, is he playing Kimmich as part of a back three with Hummels/Ginter? Weird.


----------



## cgf

Savant said:


> Going with Bremen. Cool uniforms. I remember Johan Micoud (if I spelled that right) playing for them in my infantile stages of watching. And I will make an effort to have more Beck's in my life.
> 
> Seems like Bremen should be represented on here as well. This Thomas Delaney guy seems pretty good. Could have been eligible for USMNT!
> 
> Schalke feels a little to easy. Too much mining and I don't need any more blue jerseys (NY Rangers).




Delaney is very good. The difference in their record with & without him last season was pretty ridiculous. He & Junuzovic are both really nice midfielders...though I still think they are lacking a skilled 6 to replace Grillitsch, who left for Hoffenheim this summer. Fin Bartels is an easy to root for utility man in attack. Max Kruse is the star. Kainz is a nice attacker/winger. I like the swedish LWB, Augustinsson.
Bauer was an interesting prospect who I'm curious to see in the back three this season.

But don't expect them to keep many cleansheets.

Eggestein & Mbom are the biggest prospects; but Schneider, Schmidt, Philipp & Hackerthal are all well rated in youth-NT circles.


----------



## cgf

Nalens Oga said:


> Stindl and Hector...bit of a surprise start for those two no?
> 
> Also, is he playing Kimmich as part of a back three with Hummels/Ginter? Weird.




I mean, Stindl is the best German forward atm


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

cgf said:


> Eggestein & Mbom are the biggest prospects; but Schneider, Schmidt, Philipp & Hackerthal are all well rated in youth-NT circles.




Josh Sargent is also joining next year. Really good forward, he played at the U20 World Cup and tied for the Silver Boot, despite also being eligible for the U17 World Cup.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> Going with Bremen. Cool uniforms. I remember Johan Micoud (if I spelled that right) playing for them in my infantile stages of watching. And I will make an effort to have more Beck's in my life.
> 
> Seems like Bremen should be represented on here as well. This Thomas Delaney guy seems pretty good. Could have been eligible for USMNT!
> 
> Schalke feels a little to easy. Too much mining and I don't need any more blue jerseys (NY Rangers).




I saw your post yesterday but couldn't respond, but I was going to suggest Bremen as well. Definitely my favorite non-Dortmund never/rarely relegated club.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

cgf said:


> I mean, Stindl is the best German forward atm




Stindl was pretty bad today IMO. He certainly tried but more often than not seemed to make the wrong decision.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

cgf said:


> I mean, Stindl is the best German forward atm




Werner, no?


----------



## Savant

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Josh Sargent is also joining next year. Really good forward, he played at the U20 World Cup and tied for the Silver Boot, despite also being eligible for the U17 World Cup.




Sold. Do they have a cool stadium?


----------



## jniklast

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Werner, no?




Definitely Werner imo. Looks like a legit Klose replacement finally.


----------



## WhiskeySeven*

They gotta stop booing Werner.

And Toni Kroos as the only CM? Jogi...


----------



## gary69

cgf said:


> Delaney is very good. The difference in their record with & without him last season was pretty ridiculous. He & Junuzovic are both really nice midfielders...though I still think they are lacking a skilled 6 to replace Grillitsch, who left for Hoffenheim this summer. Fin Bartels is an easy to root for utility man in attack. Max Kruse is the star. Kainz is a nice attacker/winger. I like the swedish LWB, Augustinsson.
> Bauer was an interesting prospect who I'm curious to see in the back three this season.
> 
> *But don't expect them to keep many cleansheets.*
> 
> Eggestein & Mbom are the biggest prospects; but Schneider, Schmidt, Philipp & Hackerthal are all well rated in youth-NT circles.




Bremen isn't a bad choice, they've been good for goals in either direction for decades now. They've won a couple of titles since then, but I remember them best for the mid 80's VÃ¶ller years when they were quite exciting to watch.

Maybe Eggestein can lead them to similar achievements before he inevitably moves on.


----------



## Nalens Oga

WhiskeySeven said:


> They gotta stop booing Werner.
> 
> And Toni Kroos as the only CM? Jogi...




Yeah...did he forget that the big reason for their success was Schweini and Khedira as the two holding midfielders? I realize they can't have those back at their peak but put a Kramer or someone in there at least.

I think/hope that today was just experiment day.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nalens Oga said:


> Yeah...did he forget that *the big reason for their success was * Schweini and* Khedira* as the two holding midfielders? I realize they can't have those back at their peak but put a Kramer or someone in there at least.
> 
> I think/hope that today was just experiment day.


----------



## WhiskeySeven*

Nalens Oga said:


> Yeah...did he forget that the big reason for their success was Schweini and Khedira as the two holding midfielders? I realize they can't have those back at their peak but put a Kramer or someone in there at least.
> 
> I think/hope that today was just experiment day.






Deficient Mode said:


>




Khedira is _easily_ one of the most overrated players in recent history. But Germany needs someone to stay in position and do the heavy lifting - of sorts. I suppose Kroos has improved his positioning and defensive play enough to not need two CMs backing him, but he still doesn't possess a destroyer's or holding mid's instincts. Schweini, as much as I criticised him, did.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Just learned Ryan Kane went to Freiburg instead of Hannover, because Heldt wasn't patient enough.
Well done, Heldt, Hannover doesn't need talent, they won the first two.


----------



## cgf

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Werner, no?




Not yet, at least not for our NT. Werner is absolutely lethal in space, but he still has a lot to learn about playing in possession. 

Stindl, on the other hand, is much more crafty and experienced in dealing with the kind of cramped spaces our NT faces in most matches.

Kruse would be even more perfect for the job, but that ain't happening until we dump Jogi.


----------



## Savant

cgf said:


> Not yet, at least not for our NT. Werner is absolutely lethal in space, but he still has a lot to learn about playing in possession.
> 
> Stindl, on the other hand, is much more crafty and experienced in dealing with the kind of cramped spaces our NT faces in most matches.
> 
> Kruse would be even more perfect for the job, but that ain't happening until we dump Jogi.




Yeah! Max Kruse for Mannschaft!


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> Not yet, at least not for our NT. Werner is absolutely lethal in space, but he still has a lot to learn about playing in possession.
> 
> Stindl, on the other hand, is much more crafty and experienced in dealing with the kind of cramped spaces our NT faces in most matches.
> 
> Kruse would be even more perfect for the job, but that ain't happening until we dump Jogi.




LÃ¶w doesn't like players who loose thousands of euros in a taxi.
Peeing in a hotel lobby is not a big deal though.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

What happened to Geis? Is he still a good prospect? 

also why are you guys suggesting someone be a Schalke fan... that's almost worse than an Arsenal fan!


----------



## Deficient Mode

WhiskeySeven said:


> Khedira is _easily_ one of the most overrated players in recent history. But Germany needs someone to stay in position and do the heavy lifting - of sorts. I suppose Kroos has improved his positioning and defensive play enough to not need two CMs backing him, but he still doesn't possess a destroyer's or holding mid's instincts. Schweini, as much as I criticised him, did.




Khedira is a good player, but he was definitely one of the weaker parts of that team. He wouldn't have played if GÃ¼ndogan had been healthy.


----------



## SJSharks72

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> What happened to Geis? Is he still a good prospect?
> 
> also why are you guys suggesting someone be a Schalke fan... that's almost worse than an Arsenal fan!




Because it would be a second team and they have a lot of talent so it's more of just entertaining for me


----------



## Theokritos

You go from this...



Savant said:


> What cities make the *best beer*?




...to this:



Savant said:


> And I will make an effort to have more *Beck's* in my life.


----------



## Vipers31

Theokritos said:


> You go from this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...to this:




That indeed is an unfortunate string of statements.


----------



## Bure80

cgf said:


> That kid is a few waves away from that title at this point. Abouchabaka, Mbom & Arp are the biggest talents of the next wave after the late 90s birth years are all established...and Moukoko is working his way up to the wave after that, with Batista Meier (Bayern), Keanu Schneider (Werder), Kaan Kurt (Gladbach), Mika Schroers (Gladbach), Arbnor Aliu (Schalke) & Luca Barata (Gladbach).




As a 12 year old Moukoko scored 4 goals again for Dortmunds U17 (14goals/5games). If he is really 12 he is the most talented player in my opionion. But i agree other players are wider in development and ofcourse closer to BL.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bure80 said:


> As a 12 year old Moukoko scored 4 goals again for Dortmunds U17 (14goals/5games). If he is really 12 he is the most talented player in my opionion. But i agree other players are wider in development and ofcourse closer to BL.




I know the current age threshold is 17, but I would think that the Bundesliga is going to have to make an exception for Moukoko to play at 16, and even possibly 15. 

Lets not put the cart before the horse, but the way he's trending, he shouldn't spend more than a full year at these levels. You really gotta start considering him spending this season with the U17's, next season with the U19's, and then bringing him into the first team when he turns 15 a few months into the next season. 

For players of that caliber, the step up to a higher level of youth football usually doesn't make a huge difference. The difference is usually the step up to the Bundesliga. That should end up being the big step for Moukoko. The Bundesliga making him wait until age 17 would be ridiculous, considering how well he's playing.


----------



## cgf

Bure80 said:


> As a 12 year old Moukoko scored 4 goals again for Dortmunds U17 (14goals/5games). If he is really 12 he is the most talented player in my opionion. But i agree other players are wider in development and ofcourse closer to BL.




What he's doing is insane at that age; but those other guys I mentioned are either already at the senior level or getting very close. Whereas Moukoko still has years to go before he's pushing for a spot at the senior level. That's why I break it up into waves.

That said, I'm a huge fan of Eggestein's and it will be hard for Moukoko to surpass him if JoJo can stay healthy and make the breakthrough. Eggestein's nose for goal, skill level, and creativity are just so high grade that it's been hard not to see a german Bergkamp while watching him develop.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Are we sure he is 12?


----------



## Albatros

Do we need to be? If he has been deemed qualified to play by the relevant federations based on the paperwork he has, then that's that unless someone can prove something else. In any case he is still just a kid and such discussion about one based only on assumptions and prejudices feels quite disturbing.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

At the end of the day, aside from pulling the wool over potential suitors' eyes it wouldn't make a huge difference either way. You'd hope that teams have learned the lesson that you can't project linear comparable development on adolescents. In those age groups, those who physically mature early have a huge advantage which might well be gone by the time everyone else has caught up by age 18-19.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> At the end of the day, aside from pulling the wool over potential suitors' eyes it wouldn't make a huge difference either way. You'd hope that teams have learned the lesson that you can't project linear comparable development on adolescents. In those age groups, those who physically mature early have a huge advantage which might well be gone by the time everyone else has caught up by age 18-19.




Yes, that is fair. 

However if he is 12 and crushing U17s, that is still very impressive, because he is at best developed equally physically to those kids.


----------



## cgf

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Josh Sargent is also joining next year. Really good forward, he played at the U20 World Cup and tied for the Silver Boot, despite also being eligible for the U17 World Cup.




Yeah I was just thinking of german talents off the top of my head. Others I should've mentioned include: Idrissa Toure, who was very highly rated before he grew too full of himself and who's partying got him kicked out of first the RB academy and then Schalke...though he seems like he may have been humbled enough to get his s*** on track with Werder the way his old party buddy Janelt did when he landed with Bochum after RB dumped them. Boubacar Barry is a very pacey & dynamic attacking player who joined them from Karslruhe academy which has produced a lot of good prospects in recent years. And their 20yo Gambian striker, Ousman Manneh has quite a bit of talent & hype as well.


----------



## cgf

RB trying to give Hamburg the lead. Horrible first 27 minutes.


----------



## Live in the Now

Very glad replay exists because that would have been totally bogus.


----------



## cgf

If Hassenhuttl won't learn how to structure his team against parked busses he should just say **** it and play an old school MM formation when teams bunker against them:

Werner - Augustin
Forsberg - Sabitzer - Bruma
Keita - Kampl/Laimer
Upamecano - Orban - Klostermann​
With Poulsen on the bench for one of the central attacking trident if they need a big targetman to bounces crosses & long balls off of; and Abouchabaka there to rotate into the second attacking band.

EDIT:

Damn Keita


----------



## Live in the Now

Wow Keita.


----------



## cgf

Hassenhuttl, no...don't become the next coach to mistake Kampl for a wide player. Stick him next to Keita and let them press & counter the s*** out of any midfield; don't waste him out wide were his running & dribbling lead to nothing.


----------



## cgf

Or Kampl could just make me look like an ass by finally developing an end product...but even with Timo to feed, I'm doubting it.


----------



## Live in the Now

What a one man counter that was.


----------



## cgf

lol HSV go from almost equalizing to Werner scoring the 2-0 on the other end in about 3 seconds.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Holy hell what a goal and pace by Timo Wener, right after a Hamburg corner where Holtby for some reason tries to tap it in with his knee instead of smashing in a goal.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Kampl's pass to Werner was great. And the way Werner just turned on the jets.


----------



## cgf

Live in the Now said:


> What a one man counter that was.




Yeah, werner's kinda dangerous when he has room to run 



cgf said:


> Or Kampl could just make me look like an ass by finally developing an end product...but even with Timo to feed, I'm doubting it.




Guess option A it is 

EDIT:
That's the Kampl I'm used to.


----------



## Live in the Now

Keita hurt his groin right before the Monaco game. Bad news there.


----------



## cgf

Live in the Now said:


> Keita hurt his groin right before the Monaco game. Bad news there.




Yeah they're pretty screwed if he can't go. They were going to need both him & Kampl to run wild against that Monaco midfield to spark those counters that they're going to need to capitalize on to get anything out of that match. I like Laimer a lot, but don't think he's ready to step in on that stage and thrive, and Demme / Ilsanker / Kaiser are all just too mediocre.

Shame they didn't hijack the Rudy transfer. Having him behind Keita & Kampl would've been absolutely hellacious for opposing build-up structures. As is I think they'll make it interesting against monaco but ultimately lose in a high scoring affair...with the gap increasing by a goal or two if Keita can't play.

EDIT: Just for s***s and gigs cause I have 20 more minutes to waste, and waste them I shall!:

Forsberg - Werner - Augustin* - Sabitzer*
Keita - Kampl
Rudy
Upamecano - Orban - Klostermann

*Bruma​


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Weigl played 45 in a reserve game today. Probably won't be enough to get him back into the side for the crucial UCL match during midweek, but maybe he makes the bench, and can help off the bench. Sancho also played in that game, he still needs to get match fitness, but when he does, I think he takes Isak's spot on the bench. 

I think Philipp needs a goal today or at least a really good performance, otherwise he could be dropped for Yarmolenko against Spurs. Sokratis could also use a strong performance with Toprak nipping at his heels of late.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Freiburg is so reckless today. Kicking every Dortmund player's heels. Disgusting.

VAR turns Ravet's challenge into a straight red after the yellow. Good. They've been so dirty today. Both Schmelzer and Bartra off injured in the first half will badly limit Dortmund's options later. Philipp also took a nasty tackle.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

And there goes the left side of the defense.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I don't know what Bartra's injury was, but the Schmelzer injury looks really bad. And he just had come back. Shame.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I don't know what Bartra's injury was, but the Schmelzer injury looks really bad. And he just had come back. Shame.




Hopefully Bartra can be back midweek. Looked like he walked off on his own accord. IDK though.


----------



## Deficient Mode

This is the sort of match where it would be nice to have Dembele. Or maybe Guerreiro. Dortmund have positional and possession dominance but they almost always have both of those even at 11 vs 11. Freiburg going into a shell will test Dortmund's weakness in creativity in the final third. And thanks to their tackles, Bosz only has one change to get it right. Philipp or Castro off for Kagawa maybe.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Where is Weigl? hurt?


----------



## Deficient Mode

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Where is Weigl? hurt?




He has been hurt for like 3 months...


----------



## ScottishCanuck

Anti-football from Freiburg today.

It works I guess, but dull to watch.


----------



## Deficient Mode

ScottishCanuck said:


> Anti-football from Freiburg today.
> 
> It works I guess, but dull to watch.




They defended really well in all phases of the game. I wouldn't be mad if they hadn't kept stepping on Dortmund heels. 

I wish Dortmund would counter more quickly sometimes when Freiburg give up the ball.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Wow 

Just allow the advantage no one had stopped playing


----------



## ScottishCanuck

Why play no advantage there?


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Deficient Mode said:


> Wow
> 
> Just allow the advantage no one had stopped playing




are u talking about aubas nogoal? 

if so my stream is really behind wow


----------



## Deficient Mode

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> are u talking about aubas nogoal?
> 
> if so my stream is really behind wow




Yep.

This isn't the starting 11 or the sub I'd choose for breaking a bunker. No incisive passes. No one to advance the ball by dribbling through pressure. No Dahoud, no Kagawa. GÃ¶tze subbed out when he created the best chance vs the 10 men.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

How is that not a penalty? Hit with an elbow in the box, bleeding, how can you say the contact wasn't enough when it was enough to make Piszczek bleed?


----------



## ScottishCanuck

Should really be a penalty. Might have won the ball and would have been harsh on Freiburg but that's clear use of the elbow.


----------



## Bon Esprit

wow, kÃ¶ln, leverkusen and gladbach.


----------



## Deficient Mode

One thing is certain: VAR will make for a huge uptick in added time. Gladbach-Eintracht match went to 8 minutes in the second half. Both of the halves in the Dortmund match were 5+.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Just couldn't break Freiburg down, except when we did, but the ref didn't play advantage. 

This team really needs to start targeting some more creative wingers, Sancho was a nice target, but seriously the Schurrle, Philipp, Yarmolenko types are nice but they aren't really types of guys who help much in a game like this. Someone like Emre Mor could've really helped today, not to mention Dembele.

Goetze had to come off to manage his minutes, but he was doing more than any player on the pitch, so it worked against winning.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> How is that not a penalty? Hit with an elbow in the box, bleeding, how can you say the contact wasn't enough when it was enough to make Piszczek bleed?






ScottishCanuck said:


> Should really be a penalty. Might have won the ball and would have been harsh on Freiburg but that's clear use of the elbow.




I disagree. I think if given it is a very stingy penalty call. Yes he got a little elbow and bled, but hardly a massive scoring chance denied. To end a game on that would be a bit unfair. 

I agree with the comments about the lacking creativity though. Could've used Kagawa or Guerreiro.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Just couldn't break Freiburg down, except when we did, but the ref didn't play advantage.
> 
> This team really needs to start targeting some more creative wingers, Sancho was a nice target, but seriously the Schurrle, Philipp, Yarmolenko types are nice but they aren't really types of guys who help much in a game like this. Someone like Emre Mor could've really helped today, not to mention Dembele.
> 
> Goethe had to come off to manage his minutes, but he was doing more than any player on the pitch, so it worked against winning.




IDK about Mor. Seemed to never figure out when to pass to teammates even if he had good passing technique. 

Mostly Bosz needed to play Dahoud and Kagawa. I don't quite understand why he still prefers Castro to Dahoud. 

Even in their first two matches of the season, their chance creation was uncertain and a bit flukey imo despite the nice combinations in the first part of buildup. At least the clean sheets are nice.



MrFunnyWobbl said:


> I disagree. I think if given it is a very stingy penalty call. Yes he got a little elbow and bled, but hardly a massive scoring chance denied. To end a game on that would be a bit unfair.
> 
> I agree with the comments about the lacking creativity though. Could've used Kagawa or Guerreiro.




Yeah. And there was a stronger case for Sokratis giving a penalty on the other end like 10 minutes earlier. Fortunately that one didn't go to VAR.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> I disagree. I think if given it is a very stingy penalty call. Yes he got a little elbow and bled, but hardly a massive scoring chance denied. To end a game on that would be a bit unfair.
> 
> I agree with the comments about the lacking creativity though. Could've used Kagawa or Guerreiro.




But then you are not following the laws. It shouldn't matter how good or bad the chance is. If you foul a player like that, its a foul, and only then should it be a consideration where on the field the foul took place.


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> IDK about Mor. Seemed to never figure out when to pass to teammates even if he had good passing technique.
> 
> Mostly Bosz needed to play Dahoud and Kagawa. I don't quite understand why he still prefers Castro to Dahoud.
> 
> Even in their first two matches of the season, their chance creation was uncertain and a bit flukey imo despite the nice combinations in the first part of buildup. At least the clean sheets are nice.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah. And there was a stronger case for Sokratis giving a penalty on the other end like 10 minutes earlier. Fortunately that one didn't go to VAR.




Castro always seems to be one of the first names on the team sheet and has been pretty much since he has been there.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Castro should be sold 

I have never seen what he brings yeah


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> Castro always seems to be one of the first names on the team sheet and has been pretty much since he has been there.




I like Castro more than most Dortmund fans, but he's definitely less creative than Dahoud and less likely to penetrate the defense unless he's playing right around the box and making the final ball or the final finish, and he shouldn't be playing in midfield in a match like this. IDK what Dahoud hasn't learned yet that Bosz wants him to, but I hope he does soon.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Castro is a good squad player. Not a starter. Keep him around the club, but Dahoud should be starting instead. I thought Castro was good today, I thought he helped more than most players today.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Castro is a good squad player. Not a starter. Keep him around the club, but Dahoud should be starting instead. I thought Castro was good today, I thought he helped more than most players today.




I thought he was one of the poorer players. He was obviously more involved and touched the ball more than anyone except Toprak and Sokratis, but his lack of incisive passing and dribbling was a big flaw in Dortmund's play.

Of course I agree he should be kept. Rode is the real problem, not Castro.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Looks like over-reliance on crossing and long-shots with bad finishing from Dortmund based on the highlights.

Also that red is a bit harsh isn't it? I'm not trying to be anti-VAR as I love it but I generally see that being given a yellow.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nalens Oga said:


> Looks like over-reliance on crossing and long-shots with bad finishing from Dortmund based on the highlights.
> 
> Also that red is a bit harsh isn't it? I'm not trying to be anti-VAR as I love it but I generally see that being given a yellow.




It was a good call imo. That was like the third time Freiburg as a whole had done that exact move. Maybe harsh the way the rules are written but the team was playing recklessly and begging for a Dortmund injury, and they deserved to be penalized harshly.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Uth is on fire.


----------



## Savant

Hoffenheim are no joke at home. The only team to beat them there under Nagelsmann is Liverpool (I think)


----------



## Savi

Bayern looked very ordinary.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Savant said:


> Hoffenheim are no joke at home. The only team to beat them there under Nagelsmann is Liverpool (I think)




The team that just got taken behind the woodshed by Man City? 

Hoffenheim is okay, I think they overachieved last season. I don't think they are looking like a UCL spot contender this year, I think that result speaks more to Bayern being overrated the last two years, and very capable of losing the league, if there was a proper challenger this year, which there might be with Dortmund and Leipzig, I don't think we know yet.


----------



## Savant

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> The team that just got taken behind the woodshed by Man City?
> 
> Hoffenheim is okay, I think they overachieved last season. I don't think they are looking like a UCL spot contender this year, I think that result speaks more to Bayern being overrated the last two years, and very capable of losing the league, if there was a proper challenger this year, which there might be with Dortmund and Leipzig, I don't think we know yet.




Yes them! The ones that beat Bayern's A- team in the preseason 4-0 in Germany. It's the circle of soccer. 

Who else is excited for Werder Bremen tomorrow.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Yeah I'm not that surprised. I saw them struggle defensively against Bayer, Brandt in particular terrorized them when he was subbed on and then they really struggled to break down Bremen who were **** going forward but Bayern didn't get much through their mediocre defense till a couple moments of individual magic.

I think too much of their lineup in terms of offense at least is entering or has entered its post-peak and they should be good enough to still win the Bundesliga but they aren't as dominant or invincible to me.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> Yeah I'm not that surprised. I saw them struggle defensively against Bayer, Brandt in particular terrorized them when he was subbed on and then they really struggled to break down Bremen who were **** going forward but Bayern didn't get much through their mediocre defense till a couple moments of individual magic.
> 
> I think too much of their lineup in terms of offense at least is entering or has entered its post-peak and they should be good enough to still win the Bundesliga but they aren't as dominant or invincible to me.




I don't think its their personnel, maybe upgrade a little in the wing positions, but that team is stacked pretty much all around the field. They could use some more depth, they have a smaller squad than most teams, but pretty much all the guys who get time are very good.

Ancelotti has not convinced with Bayern, he has all this talent, and he's not getting them to play well enough.


----------



## cgf

TopKex said:


> Uth is on fire.




Who would've thought that playing Demirbay & Amiri in front of Geiger/Grillitsch would get TSG to knock off Bayern 

...now if only Hecking would listen to me as well and adopt either a back 3 or a midfield trio:

Hazard - Raffael
Stindl
Wendt** - Zakaria* - Kramer* - Traore
Veste - Ginter - Elvedi
Sommer

*Benes
**Johnson / Herrmann / Grifo / Hoffman

or 

Hazard - Raffael
Stindl
Benes - Kramer
Zakaria
Wendt - Veste - Ginter - Elvedi
Sommer​


then all we'll need is for Bosz to learn to love Dahoud and for Weigl to get healthy...and for Hassenhuttl to learn what a bus is, and how to combat it *sigh*



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> The team that just got taken behind the woodshed by Man City?
> 
> Hoffenheim is okay, I think they overachieved last season. I don't think they are looking like a UCL spot contender this year, I think that result speaks more to Bayern being overrated the last two years, and very capable of losing the league, if there was a proper challenger this year, which there might be with Dortmund and Leipzig, I don't think we know yet.




Hoffenheim doesn't have as much talent as some other teams, but until those other teams actually start playing better than them Nagelsmann will have that team in the CL mix. Once Grillitsch/Geiger take over that spot behind Amiri & Demirbay the midfield & build up play will just be unstoppable. And with Uth, Kramaric & Gnabry that attack has a lot of quality on top of the productive depth. 

The only real gripe I have with their roster is that they need a better third CB next to Hubner & Vogt; as both Bicakcic & Nordveit have their warts, and Hoogma still needs some polish before he's ready...although part of me wonders if Geiger couldn't play in that spot the way Kimmich has for Bayern & the NT, once Grillitisch is match fit & settled in. Something like:

Kramaric/Uth - Uth/Gnabry
Gnabry/Zuber/Ochs - Amiri - Demirbay - Kaderabek/Passlack
Grillitsch
Hubner - Vogt - Geiger​


Nalens Oga said:


> Yeah I'm not that surprised. I saw them struggle defensively against Bayer, Brandt in particular terrorized them when he was subbed on and then they really struggled to break down Bremen who were **** going forward but Bayern didn't get much through their mediocre defense till a couple moments of individual magic.
> 
> I think too much of their lineup in terms of offense at least is entering or has entered its post-peak and they should be good enough to still win the Bundesliga but they aren't as dominant or invincible to me.




It's not the personnel. It's the coach. Pep would have that same roster dominating the league...and Nagelsmann will have them dominating once again whenever he goes there to replace Ancelotti.


----------



## Cassano

Ancelotti will be sacked by January.


----------



## Albatros

Only if it will be FC Hollywood all over again. With the MÃ¼ller saga there certainly are symptoms of that.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> Only if it will be FC Hollywood all over again. With the MÃ¼ller saga there certainly are symptoms of that.




Yesterday, during the sport1 fantalk, Mario Basler said that Anchelotti already has a new contract with a Chinese club in place. He might leave Bayern in the winter. It's Basler and possibly not even a rumour, but nonsense. But I wouldn't be surprised, if it happens. Bayern and Anchelotti don't match.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

If this was to be the start of a transitional phase for Bayern that would only be good for the league. Even though unfortunately it's clubs likes Hoffenheim and Leipzig who might take advantage of it.

But I think there can be no doubt in my mind that Bayern would naturally experience some drop-off as Robben/Ribery are dribbling toward the retirement home and old mainstays like Lahm and Schweinsteiger are gone already. Whether that drop-off simply limits them in the CL or also affects their ability to win the league every year is the question.


----------



## Bon Esprit

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> If this was to be the start of a transitional phase for Bayern that would only be good for the league. Even though unfortunately it's clubs likes Hoffenheim and Leipzig who might take advantage of it.
> 
> But I think there can be no doubt in my mind that Bayern would naturally experience some drop-off as Robben/Ribery are dribbling toward the retirement home and old mainstays like Lahm and Schweinsteiger are gone already. Whether that drop-off simply limits them in the CL or also affects their ability to win the league every year is the question.




Bayern needs to retool, no doubt. But I doubt the league (other teams) will take advantage of this. Contenders like Dortmund also loose talent. And behind Dortmund the number of contenders are slim. Gladbach won't challenge, so are past contenders like Leverkusen or Wolfsburg. Leipzig is good, but not Bayern good.


----------



## WhiskeySeven*

Damn I had a long post but it crashed or something.

I'm far from being a fanboy or a homer for Bayern, I've even admitted that my support has waned since I've moved to Europe (from North America). 

That said, I haven't lost faith or hope in Carlo just yet. The team is far from gelling together this season, coming off the first (so poorly timed) international break... there's so much time yet. And we can't pretend that Pep's Bayern didn't lose to brick walls every so often either.

Lewy's criticism is uncalled for - other than stealing Neymar with Qatar's LNG money, there are few other clear upgrades out there for the wingers. And Bayern spent big on other upgrades this summer. Anyway Ribery and Robben are still great players. We saw Douglas Costa lose his spot to Robbery, we have Coman still not as effective as them... they're just damn good. It's a matter of it coming together. I think Carlo can do it, and if he wants to play a form of hoofball with many crosses that's fine, just keep Muller in there supporting Lewy - don't leave him out to be triple-marked. This was Jupp's mistake against Chelsea in that fateful CL final, btw. 

I think they'll get it together. Maybe they're not CL favourites but no one is a CL favourite when Madrid are so freaking hot. Short of acquiring a Ronaldo, and an Isco - you're not going to compete with them on paper. Bayern are comparable with their other players and positions. 

One clown who won't get it together any time soon is Renato Sanches. What an absurdly poor footballer. Braindead is the nicest thing I can say about him on the pitch.


----------



## Savant

Thomas Delaney is on some run right now.


----------



## Power Man

Damn S04 stop it


----------



## Milos Krasic

Stuttgart pissed away all their momentum quickly


----------



## les Habs

Bon Esprit said:


> Bayern needs to retool, no doubt. But I doubt the league (other teams) will take advantage of this. Contenders like Dortmund also loose talent. And behind Dortmund the number of contenders are slim. Gladbach won't challenge, so are past contenders like Leverkusen or Wolfsburg. Leipzig is good, but not Bayern good.




Yes, and Bayern losing Ancelotti isn't a big deal considering the talent they have. The league shouldn't be in danger for some time as it looks right now. Bayern have some aging talent, but they have a good three years to address that before it'd be an issue and they might even more time than that. That said they have some good talent at about 25 years old or younger. With their resources it shouldn't be a big issue as regards the domestic competition.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bayern will eventually lose the league one of these years when things go wrong for them and right for someone else and then retool and go on another rampage. Sort of like PSG did this summer.


----------



## Albatros

I think they will need several years to rebuild, there's a good window for someone else to win even a couple of titles. And not just BVB, if Leipzig can keep their core together they could win the league within the next 3-4 years already.


----------



## Milos Krasic

Bayern has to be questioned about Renato Sanches, Douglas Costa, and Serge Gnabry. 

Somewhere they're off on talent evaluation.


----------



## Evilo

Nobody here said anything wrong about recruiting Costa after his first season.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Milos Krasic said:


> Bayern has to be questioned about Renato Sanches, Douglas Costa, and Serge Gnabry.
> 
> Somewhere they're off on talent evaluation.




Gnabry? I think they're handling him well and he could eventually make it back to Bayern. They spent far less on him than the other two as well. We'll see. 



Evilo said:


> Nobody here said anything wrong about recruiting Costa after his first season.




I definitely said at the time that they could have done better. He is a fantastic dribbler but he was never very good at making a pass after the dribble, or scoring from it. A good player, but still a far cry from Robben or Ribery at their best.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I'd add Coman to that. They seem to have gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to French attackers, considering other clubs have players like Dembele, Lemar, Martial, Mbappe.


----------



## Nalens Oga

I don't personally think Schalke are as good as their two wins suggest and I don't think that Leverkusen are as bad as their 1 point suggests, so far.


----------



## Live in the Now

There's nothing wrong with Coman. He just turned 21 and they got him for nothing in the current market.


----------



## Cassano

Live in the Now said:


> There's nothing wrong with Coman. He just turned 21 and they got him for nothing in the current market.




He took over games his first season in the UCL against the like of Juventus.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Live in the Now said:


> There's nothing wrong with Coman. He just turned 21 and they got him for nothing in the current market.




Maybe, but there also isn't nearly enough right to suggest he could be Bayern's long-term solution on the right wing. And it's not wrong to say that he isn't on the level of a number of other French attackers in his age group. Sort of like Costa, he was super involved in Guardiola's wing-heavy play his first year, but when the volume of his actions receded under Ancelotti, it became apparent that his final balls weren't satisfactory most of the time.



DrRecchi said:


> He took over games his first season in the UCL against the like of Juventus.




I don't remember that at all.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Live in the Now said:


> There's nothing wrong with Coman. He just turned 21 and they got him for nothing in the current market.




Wrong? I didn't say wrong, but he's not as good as those players I named, not really even in the same category as most of them. He's an okay player, but I don't think he's exactly the type of player that is a permanent replacement for Robben and Ribery. 

How much he went for is irrelevant. Bayern is trying to win games, not make the cheapest transactions.


----------



## Bon Esprit

IMO Bayern aren't in bad shape at all. They need to replace Robbery, no doubt. Also it seems Lewa needs a kick in the a++ or the boot.

Bayern today have a clear policy: They won't play the high stakes game like PSG, the top Spanish or the EPLs. We will wait and see how long it stands. Sooner or later they'll have to play the game if they want to compete internationally.


----------



## cgf

les Habs said:


> Yes, and Bayern losing Ancelotti isn't a big deal considering the talent they have. The league shouldn't be in danger for some time as it looks right now. Bayern have some aging talent, but they have a good three years to address that before it'd be an issue and they might even more time than that. That said they have some good talent at about 25 years old or younger. With their resources it shouldn't be a big issue as regards the domestic competition.




Bayern replacing ancelotti with Nagelsmann would be a huge deal and elevate their level immensely. Ancelotti isn't a very good league coach and that talent gap isn't as massive as it once was. So sooner or later the better coached clubs will get close enough to bridge that gap.



Savant said:


> Thomas Delaney is on some run right now.




He's been phenomenal (whenever fit) since landing with Werder



Live in the Now said:


> There's nothing wrong with Coman. He just turned 21 and they got him for nothing in the current market.




If we are criticizing them for bringing Sanches in they should be criticized for coman as well. Neither had a Bayern brain atm...and until Nagelsmann arrives they won't have a teacher that can install one.


----------



## Evilo

Coman has had a much bigger impact than Sanches at Bayern. Not even close. Can't see the comparison.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Hamburger SV are in negotiations with former Hoffenheim player Sejad Salihovic. He is available, because he has no contract.

http://sportbild.bild.de/bundesliga...dol-todt-wechsel-transfer-53185506.sport.html 

In other news: HSV are not pleased with the eurosport coverage of their friday games. Maybe it gets better this time (only the eurosport player).


----------



## jniklast

Eurosport is show incredible technical incompetence with this, that's for sure. Also it's a joke that HSV has to play on Friday three times in a row.


----------



## Bon Esprit

jniklast said:


> Eurosport is show incredible technical incompetence with this, that's for sure. Also it's a joke that HSV has to play on Friday three times in a row.




I don't know why Hamburg are playing always on friday (3 of 4 at least). It's a shame the DFL don't seem to care how it's product is presented. I mean how difficult is it to ask eurosport to show the DFL what they are planning to do and how it actually works.

Amateurs meet amateurs it seems.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> Coman has had a much bigger impact than Sanches at Bayern. Not even close. Can't see the comparison.




He did in year 1 under Guardiola. Under Ancelotti both of their lack of quick thinking has been exposed


----------



## Evilo

I disagree with Coman lack of quick thinking.

And anyway, as I said, one has had impact with Bayern, the other not. They absolutely don't fall under the same category.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> I disagree with Coman lack of quick thinking.
> 
> And anyway, as I said, one has had impact with Bayern, the other not. They absolutely don't fall under the same category.




Had, past tense. He had an impact in his first season. 

Now they fall into the same category of gifted players who don't have the brains' to help Bayern.


----------



## DatsyukOwns

Delete.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Bon Esprit said:


> Hamburger SV are in negotiations with former Hoffenheim player Sejad Salihovic. He is available, because he has no contract.
> 
> http://sportbild.bild.de/bundesliga...dol-todt-wechsel-transfer-53185506.sport.html




Deal is done. One year.

http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...ener-einjahresvertrag_salihovic-beim-hsv.html

See you on friday.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Youssoufa Moukoko, a name that we should keep in mind. 12 yo player ripping u16 apart. Who cares if he is really 12. Dortmund player.

http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/m...rifft-doppelt-fuer-dfb-elf-53202030.bild.html


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Youssoufa Moukoko, a name that we should keep in mind. 12 yo player ripping u16 apart. Who cares if he is really 12. Dortmund player.
> 
> http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/m...rifft-doppelt-fuer-dfb-elf-53202030.bild.html




I can't wait until he moves to the u17 team and it'll be possible to watch some of his matches on television or internet stream.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Apparently Mario GÃ¶tze lost some teeth in yesterday's game vs. Tottenham.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> Apparently Mario GÃƒÂ¶tze lost some teeth in yesterday's game vs. Tottenham.




Yeesh, at least he got to flash the skill level and elegance that he has...even if his athleticism is not what it used to be. I really can't wait until Weigl, Dahoud & Gotze have all settled in together & started to really click.


----------



## Cassano

Ah yes, waiting for Gotze to settle in. I've been waiting since 2014.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

DrRecchi said:


> Ah yes, waiting for Gotze to settle in. I've been waiting since 2014.




He's been really good this season, starting to show well. He's not gonna be like Messi, which some predicted, but he could easily have like an Iniesta type of career. And that would be a good career. How many players are called the next Messi or Pele or Maradona and how many of them even end up like a top 10 player of their generation? Goetze easily could do that.


----------



## Cassano

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> He's been really good this season, starting to show well. He's not gonna be like Messi, which some predicted, but he could easily have like an Iniesta type of career. And that would be a good career. How many players are called the next Messi or Pele or Maradona and how many of them even end up like a top 10 player of their generation? Goetze easily could do that.




Easily have a career like Iniesta?  Iniesta is one of the best mids of all time and the best player for a historically dominant Spanish team.

We may not see another Iniesta for a while...

It would take a miracle for Gotze to become half of a player that Iniesta was in his prime.


----------



## Deficient Mode

GÃ¶tze doesn't quite play like Iniesta. Still extremely smart and creative, and one of the most effective attacking midfielders in the world. As with Ã–zil and Kroos, his reputation suffers among dumb fans because he's slow or doesn't run hard. The idea that he hasn't settled in since 2014 is incomprehensible.


----------



## Cassano

Deficient Mode said:


> GÃƒÂ¶tze doesn't quite play like Iniesta. Still extremely smart and creative, and one of the most effective attacking midfielders in the world. As with Ãƒâ€“zil and Kroos, his reputation suffers among dumb fans because he's slow or doesn't run hard. The idea that he hasn't settled in since 2014 is incomprehensible.




He was shipped out of Bayern and hasn't even played a full season on his Dortmund return. It's not like he tore apart the league last year either. It's incomprehensible to suggest he's one of the most effective AMs in the world when it's been quite the contrary.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Well, one would have to be pretty much in denial to not acknowledge that his career hasn't exactly worked according to plan. Yes, scoring the World Cup-winning goal was an unforgettable moment that has ensured his place in German football lore. But he was 22 then and there haven't been many highlights since.

Even when he was on the rise in his first spell with Dortmund and considered the "Wunderkind", he had problems with stamina and regularly faded after an hour or so. It was expected that he would build up physically and be stronger as he matures. Instead, his fitness was a constant question mark at Bayern and it unfortunately has been an issue with Dortmund again, too.

He is gifted enough with his feet to play some roles productively even without being the level of athlete that nowadays is par for the course as far as elite players are concerned..but it is a big part of what will prevent him from being the type of player he once hoped and expected to be.


----------



## Deficient Mode

DrRecchi said:


> He was shipped out of Bayern and hasn't even played a full season on his Dortmund return. It's not like he tore apart the league last year either. It's incomprehensible to suggest he's one of the most effective AMs in the world when it's been quite the contrary.




He is playing deeper. Not making the final pass or taking the final shot. People expect him to be a dynamic player who breaks people down by dribbling but that just isn't his game. He is still a great player when healthy and his performances at Dortmund have been great. Hopefully he has resolved his metabolism issues too. I really don't care if he doesn't look good from afar.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

DrRecchi said:


> Easily have a career like Iniesta?  Iniesta is one of the best mids of all time and the best player for a historically dominant Spanish team.
> 
> We may not see another Iniesta for a while...
> 
> It would take a miracle for Gotze to become half of a player that Iniesta was in his prime.




He's already well on his way to getting there. He's way farther along than Iniesta at 25, and his "struggles" have not been form related as much as they were things he couldn't control all that much. Pep didn't want him, so once he got to Bayern, he was already out of favor, being played out of position. And last season he had some type of metabolic issue. So he might've lost a few years, but he also started a little early, so he had a few years to play with.


----------



## Cassano

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> He's already well on his way to getting there. *He's way farther along than Iniesta at 25*, and his "struggles" have not been form related as much as they were things he couldn't control all that much. Pep didn't want him, so once he got to Bayern, he was already out of favor, being played out of position. And last season he had some type of metabolic issue. So he might've lost a few years, but he also started a little early, so he had a few years to play with.




No way dude... Iniesta was 25 in 2009... He won multiple UCLs, La Liga titles Euros, Team of the Season and was a consensus top 3 midfielder by then. I think you are grossly underrating/underestimating Iniesta's career.

What everyone thought Gotze could be is what Fabregas already was from 18-25.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

DrRecchi said:


> No way dude... Iniesta was 25 in 2009... He won multiple UCLs, La Liga titles Euros, Team of the Season and was a consensus top 3 midfielder by then. I think you are grossly underrating/underestimating Iniesta's career.
> 
> What everyone thought Gotze could be is what Fabregas already was from 18-25.




Not sure team titles mean a ton compared to individual accomplishments, and its not like Goetze doesn't have team titles, he literally won his country the World Cup.  He also has won five Bundesliga titles, four DFB-Pokals, so he's very accomplished in that aspect. 

Iniesta was just breaking out to become of the best midfielders right around Goetze's current age, but up to that point, I think Goetze's individual resume was more impressive, when you consider how many of the "youngest ........" records he has, scoring the goal that won the World Cup, which Iniesta also did, but not by the 25 age threshold we are talking about. He also was the Bundesliga young player of the season, had two Kicker team of the seasons, Golden Boy award.

So I think we have to consider that up to this point, Goetze is one of the most accomplished players of his generation. If you want to look at this negatively, you can say that he's not accomplished as much the last few years, but I think that would be ignoring context. It would also be ignoring that what he's shown so far this season is a definite step in the right direction, and we'll see where he's at later in the season. He's fit and he's now in a team where he can play his best position.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Hannover - *Hamburg* (I predict a draw tbh)
*Bayern *- Mainz 
Werder - *Schalke *
Stuttgart - Wolfsburg (draw)
*Frankfurt *- Augsburg 
*RB *- Gladbach 
*Hoffenheim *- Hertha 
*Bayer *- Freiburg 
*Dortmund *- Koln


----------



## Evilo

Hilarious stuff....
This has no end....


----------



## Live in the Now

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Not sure team titles mean a ton compared to individual accomplishments, and its not like Goetze doesn't have team titles, he literally won his country the World Cup.  He also has won five Bundesliga titles, four DFB-Pokals, so he's very accomplished in that aspect.
> 
> Iniesta was just breaking out to become of the best midfielders right around Goetze's current age, but up to that point, I think Goetze's individual resume was more impressive, when you consider how many of the "youngest ........" records he has, scoring the goal that won the World Cup, which Iniesta also did, but not by the 25 age threshold we are talking about. He also was the Bundesliga young player of the season, had two Kicker team of the seasons, Golden Boy award.
> 
> So I think we have to consider that up to this point, Goetze is one of the most accomplished players of his generation. If you want to look at this negatively, you can say that he's not accomplished as much the last few years, but I think that would be ignoring context. It would also be ignoring that what he's shown so far this season is a definite step in the right direction, and we'll see where he's at later in the season. He's fit and he's now in a team where he can play his best position.



If anyone thinks Gotze is as good as Iniesta at 25 years old I recommend you buy the entirety of Barcelona's 08-09 season and watch it. This is crazy talk. Some of us actually did watch it, and you aren't that old, and you're lecturing other people who did watch it. You are just plain wrong. There is no comparison between the players whatsoever. Iniesta is one of the most elegant midfielders in history and certainly one of the very very best players of my time. 

I think by my counts based on a post I saw of yours in another thread, you were 12 or 13 when that happened. This comparison is so incredibly enormously wrong that I am compelled to tell you that you are wrong. There is no stat or award you can show to prove that you are right. There are also very few other midfielders who ever had the touch, control, and technical control that Iniesta had.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Evilo said:


> Hilarious stuff....
> This has no end....




It did end. You were given no response for a reason. I have nothing left to say to you on that matter, and I don't have anything to say to you here if you plan on using that discussion as a reference point for a discussion here.


----------



## Evilo

There's no discussion possible with someone who's rating Gotze's career so far with Iniesta's.

Ignorance at best.


----------



## Live in the Now

It's what happens when you judge players by something you read on Wikipedia. 

Which is why I say for anyone who didn't watch Iniesta in 08-09. Watch the ****ing games!! Perfect control, dribbling, vision, technique, energy, stronger than a player that small should be. A bright light in a sport that increasingly began to abandon technique (a period which seems to be over).


----------



## les Habs

I'm not even commenting. Agree with LITN though, people need to watch more matches.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Live in the Now said:


> If anyone thinks Gotze is as good as Iniesta at 25 years old I recommend you buy the entirety of Barcelona's 08-09 season and watch it. This is crazy talk. Some of us actually did watch it, and you aren't that old, and you're lecturing other people who did watch it. You are just plain wrong. There is no comparison between the players whatsoever. Iniesta is one of the most elegant midfielders in history and certainly one of the very very best players of my time.
> 
> I think by my counts based on a post I saw of yours in another thread, you were 12 or 13 when that happened. This comparison is so incredibly enormously wrong that I am compelled to tell you that you are wrong.




If you can't even interpret my opinion correctly, how could you be sure I'm wrong?

I never said that at 25 years old Goetze was as good as Iniesta or better. I said he's farther along, meaning his overall career. I've laid out that case. And best when talking about careers usually never means peak, a particular age, so I think its very clear that this was a discussion about overall careers up to 25, therefore you can't just discount what Goetze accomplished at an earlier age that Iniesta didn't. Football careers are not linear, they could play out in a number of ways, so while most are not accomplishing a lot from like 18-22, and their accomplishments come directly after that, 22-25 is often a big window, they don't count any more or less depending on when they happened. 

And also, why does it matter how old I was? Not like we are talking about 30 years ago. I watched a lot of football at those ages. I think I know more now, but to claim that since during the 2008-09 season I was 12 or 13 that I can't understand how good Iniesta is, that undermines your argument.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Live in the Now said:


> It's what happens when you judge players by something you read on Wikipedia.
> 
> Which is why I say for anyone who didn't watch Iniesta in 08-09. Watch the ****ing games!! Perfect control, dribbling, vision, technique, energy, stronger than a player that small should be. A bright light in a sport that increasingly began to abandon technique (a period which seems to be over).




Okay, yeah, you caught me, only browsed wikipedia, never watched Iniesta play. 

You are undermining your own argument by claiming to have knowledge about my knowledge. You are putting forward one of the most pathetic arguments I think I've ever seen used on this website. You are trying to tell me I was too young, even though I watched Barcelona play during 08-09, to have a proper opinion on Iniesta. Only people who you deem to be of proper age to judge Iniesta during that season can have valid opinions.

And this is the other great thing. Where are you even getting it from that there's some problem with how I'm judging his 08-09 season? I've not mentioned any individual seasons in my post on this subject, you are drawing a very hard to follow conclusion that has nothing to do with the actual topic, just a way to try to go after my knowledge, I'm not even sure you understand it.


----------



## Live in the Now

Oh I read what you said. Nothing about his career is farther along. For you to suggest it is a dead giveaway you didn't watch the player when he was younger. You said you were very young. Perhaps you did not understand then. I didn't think Michael Jordan was all that when I was 12 either. 

Is Gotze someone who dominates almost every single game he plays in? The answer is clearly no. 

Therefore he is not farther along. Iniesta started dominating all those games around 06-07 I would say from my judgment. I count Iniesta has played 626 games since then, some of them like at the last WC and the Euro weren't so good. That's around 600 dominant games then. So Gotze clearly has a long way to go. That's what it means for your career to be further along. Gotze has done almost nothing for three years, couldn't even get off the Bayern bench. Not even in the same class of player.


----------



## Live in the Now

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I never said that at 25 years old Goetze was as good as Iniesta or better. I said he's farther along, meaning his overall career. I've laid out that case.







Pavel Buchnevich said:


> He's been really good this season, starting to show well. He's not gonna be like Messi, which some predicted, but he could easily have like an Iniesta type of career. And that would be a good career. How many players are called the next Messi or Pele or Maradona and how many of them even end up like a top 10 player of their generation? Goetze easily could do that.




WTF do you think this means? And Iniesta is like top five of this generation, so you don't even know that part. If Gotze is a top player like that I'll eat my own crap.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

The fact that you are twisting so many things around just proves that you can not prove what you originally thought you could. Its actually funny watching you try while being condescending because somehow my age has anything to do with what I meant in using a phrase. 

Why would farther along ever mean anything other than career? There's no race to be better than someone else at a specific age, there's a race to have a better overall career, therefore you take it all into account. You can not successfully twist what I said into what you want it to be. Its career accomplishments by age 25, of which there's a very good case for Goetze having a better overall career through that age. 

Nothing else I gotta say. You don't control my words. They were from me, not you.


----------



## Live in the Now

Nope, there's no case. Your case is bogus which is why you keep editing. Dominating every game for three years prior to being 25, winning everything in the world, being key factor in the best club team ever.

The other guy has been benched for three years. He isn't even an elite player lol. I don't have time to deal with dealing with you judging players and career accomplishments of guys you watched before you got into high school, so whatever you put down, I will for sure not bother.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Live in the Now said:


> Nope, there's no case. Your case is bogus which is why you keep editing. Dominating every game for three years prior to being 25, winning everything in the world, being key factor in the best club team ever.
> 
> The other guy has been benched for three years. He isn't even an elite player lol. I don't have time to deal with dealing with you judging players and career accomplishments of guys you watched before you got into high school, so whatever you put down, I will for sure not bother.




You keep editing, as well. The post I am responding to is different than the one I initially read. Will you own up to that? You haven't owned up to much of what you've been trying to do here. I actually wasn't going to respond anymore, but your edited post included a part saying I edited my post, which is trying to fool everyone into thinking I am changing around the dialogue of this conversation. Only person trying to do that here is you.

I don't need to hide the fact that I always post and then edit, whether its for phrasing issues or wanting to add something else onto my post. I am not worried about how people like you you perceive my posts, I edit when I feel its necessary. If you want to keep trying to come after me with these points not related to my argument, go ahead, it only hurts your initial attempt to prove me wrong. I think you've now tried to make more points to come after me than my argument, which speaks for itself.


----------



## Live in the Now

I did make one edit, yes.

No reason to come back on you with anything else when it's all right there, so I shouldn't have 

But the thing is, in 20 years when everyone is thinking about Messi and Ronaldo's generation, they're also going to be thinking of people like Iniesta, Pirlo, Ibrahimovic, Xavi, Guardiola, Mourinho (unfortunately), and I assume Buffon too. Everyone else you have your regional heroes but those are the ones that transcended the game and will be icons of the sport.

I'm sorry but there's no way anyone will ever think the same of Gotze when they're listing other players of Neymar's generation. And it's too bad because he scored in a WC final. But we won't and his career to 25 years old was not at that level.


----------



## Evilo

This is what he does. Throw bogus ourageous stuff all the time about Dortmund, BVB players or Spurs (that works for him too).
And it's not like he learns. He thinks others are biased for contradicting him.

At best, Gotze could revive his career and end up as a top BL player. Iniesta was one of the best players in the world for 80% of his career.


----------



## YNWA14

If anyone's the next Iniesta it's Woodburn. Come on now.

But seriously Gotze has never been as good as Iniesta was and never will be. Iniesta is an immaculate player and he'd never have been benched at any team in the world in his prime.

I still like Gotze though and hope he can continue to have a good career. He's a very talented player and has had to overcome something pretty tough to be back at that level.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Curtinho said:


> If anyone's the next Iniesta it's Woodburn. Come on now.
> 
> But seriously Gotze has never been as good as Iniesta was and never will be. Iniesta is an immaculate player and he'd never have been benched at any team in the world in his prime.
> 
> I still like Gotze though and hope he can continue to have a good career. He's a very talented player and has had to overcome something pretty tough to be back at that level.




I swear to God man if you mention Ben Woodburn one more time 

It is not at all a disservice to GÃ¶tze to say that he will never be at the same level as Iniesta. Iniesta is arguably the best midfielder of a generation. GÃ¶tze had potential like that, and a combo of health and fitness issues/Pep misuse/standard "top prospect not hitting full potential" stuff kicked in. I really hope GÃ¶tze can get it back on track, and I have a good feeling he'll be able to. But to say that GÃ¶tze at 25 isn't at the same level as Iniesta at 25 isn't to insult GÃ¶tze (similar as to how it is no insult to Christian Pulisic to suggest his peak is top 5 Bundesliga player).


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> GÃƒÂ¶tze doesn't quite play like Iniesta. Still extremely smart and creative, and one of the most effective attacking midfielders in the world. As with Ãƒ–zil and Kroos, his reputation suffers among dumb fans because he's slow or doesn't run hard. The idea that he hasn't settled in since 2014 is incomprehensible.




There's differences but I've been arguing that Mario should model his game on Iniesta's since he first broke through & got the German-Messi label. He has that caliber of skill & subtlety, even if people have turned on him & he no longer has that kind of quickness.


----------



## Cassano

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Not sure team titles mean a ton compared to individual accomplishments, and its not like Goetze doesn't have team titles, he literally won his country the World Cup.  He also has won five Bundesliga titles, four DFB-Pokals, so he's very accomplished in that aspect.




He was on the European team of the season in 2009 at the age of 25 - and he'd won numerous individual awards for his La Liga play. 

He was a starter for the best team (Barca won 2 UCL in 4 years) in the world at the time - unlike Gotze who was sold by Bayern Munich. 

It's not as if Goetze was a major catalyst for the entire tournament either. He was benched for the majority of it - barely playing a little above Schurrle in total minutes. He had maybe a little more of an impact to Germany winning as Eder had for Portugal winning the Euros last year (to their credit - 1 GWG final goals). 



> Iniesta was just breaking out to become of the best midfielders right around Goetze's current age, but up to that point, I think Goetze's individual resume was more impressive, when you consider how many of the "youngest ........" records he has, scoring the goal that won the World Cup, which Iniesta also did, but not by the 25 age threshold we are talking about. He also was the Bundesliga young player of the season, had two Kicker team of the seasons, Golden Boy award.




Iniesta by 2009 had:
- 1x Spanish Player of the Season
- 1x Best Attacking Mid in La liga
- 1x 2nd best player in La Liga Award (2nd to Messi)
- 1x Fifa World XI

Those accomplishments all trump what Goetze accomplished (where he did mostly at a young age). 

Goetze's resume is pretty much mostly awards given to young players as you said. For example, Jack Wilshere won Young Player of the Season, Premier League team of the season, Arsenal player of the season by age 22. He is much closer to him than he is to Iniesta. 



> So I think we have to consider that up to this point, Goetze is one of the most accomplished players of his generation. If you want to look at this negatively, you can say that he's not accomplished as much the last few years, but I think that would be ignoring context. It would also be ignoring that what he's shown so far this season is a definite step in the right direction, and we'll see where he's at later in the season. He's fit and he's now in a team where he can play his best position.




Saying he is one of the most accomplished players of this generation deflects from his actual ability/proof of him being a great player. Especially since those accomplishments are mainly team related, or those that were accumulated on the back of the' German Messi' hype.


----------



## cgf

Finally the 1-0 falls. After a slow start we've earned this lead & Hedlund in particular deserved to be the one to get it.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> There's differences but I've been arguing that Mario should model his game on Iniesta's since he first broke through & got the German-Messi label. He has that caliber of skill & subtlety, even if people have turned on him & he no longer has that kind of quickness.




I don't disagree. He has won a lot of trophies and honestly his play has been underrated for a while even if it isn't at Iniesta's level. Crazy that people would pretend his career has somehow cratered. It would be nice if he could make clever dribbles to evade pressing more often, and it is unclear if his stamina issues will ever be fully resolved, but his defense, offensive positioning, and reliable creativity have long been badly underrated by his critics. He has a significant history of being Dortmund's best player against the tightest defenses, too. And I've seen at least one adjusted +/- metric where he has the best goal differential history in the world. That doesn't mean he's the best player in the world, but it should make people who say he's lazy, slow, and ineffective question if there's something they've missed.


----------



## cgf

cgf said:


> Finally the 1-0 falls. After a slow start we've earned this lead & Hedlund in particular deserved to be the one to get it.




*sigh* well now it's time to get that 2nd goal that I knew we'd need


----------



## Nalens Oga

Idiot hooligans have lit up flairs in the Hannover - Hamburg game, from the away end I think but it's spread through the field.


----------



## Nalens Oga

You've gotta be kidding me. Felipe's stretchered off 10 minutes in and I know no one normally cares about fantasy stuff but that's the fourth player I've picked in Fantasy Bundesliga since last week that's gotten injured with 3 of those being dmen. , what a curse.


----------



## cgf

Skrzybski is my boy, but Gogia was playing very well today & Steven just can't get into this game. I liked the aggressiveness of Kroos for Daube change, but the gogia change may have been a mistake from Keller.

EDIT: Hartel  love the bravado this kid has. We *need* to win promotion or he'll leave us soon.



Nalens Oga said:


> You've gotta be kidding me. Felipe's stretchered off 10 minutes in and I know no one normally cares about fantasy stuff but that's the fourth player I've picked in Fantasy Bundesliga since last week that's gotten injured with 3 of those being dmen. , what a curse.




I will request that you not select any Gladbach players, please & thank you.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Hamburg seem pretty susceptible to the counter tbh, too bad Hannover can't finish and rely on ****** crosses.


----------



## Bon Esprit

*1 
Hannover 96*
2 
Borussia Dortmund
3 
TSG Hoffenheim
4 
RB Leipzig
5 
FC Schalke 04
6 
Bayern MÃ¼nchen


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Why does European football act so lax with Domestic Violence? 

The law is the law, so we don't need to play amateur lawyers, that was handled by the French court system and they ruled what they did, but how does Coman not catch any flack within football for being guilty of attacking his girlfriend who was pregnant with their child? If Coman was an NFL player or basketball player or hockey player, he'd never play another game. Yet in football, its swept under the rug, convinced woman abusers are not even scolded.


----------



## Nalens Oga

That won't last obviously but I definetely don't expect Hannover to be relegation fodder now. Should actually be an interesting battle since Stuttgart aren't that bad either, they can hold their own. Bayer deserve more than just 1 point but Werder don't impress me and Cologne are **** imo and missing a proper striker so could be a couple pretty juicy teams getting relegated.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Why does European football act so lax with Domestic Violence?
> 
> The law is the law, so we don't need to play amateur lawyers, that was handled by the French court system and they ruled what they did, but how does Coman not catch any flack within football for being guilty of attacking his girlfriend who was pregnant with their child? If Coman was an NFL player or basketball player or hockey player, he'd never play another game. Yet in football, its swept under the rug, convinced woman abusers are not even scolded.




I wouldn't say American sports leagues are exemplary about it either. Unless there is a gruesome video of it happening, and even then, reluctantly so.



Nalens Oga said:


> That won't last obviously but I definetely don't expect Hannover to be relegation fodder now. Should actually be an interesting battle since Stuttgart aren't that bad either, they can hold their own. Bayer deserve more than just 1 point but Werder don't impress me and Cologne are **** imo and missing a proper striker so could be a couple pretty juicy teams getting relegated.




Werder isn't getting relegated as long as Kruse is healthy. They have had very tough fixtures so far is all. Too early to talk about relegation just three matches in. Bayer won't get relegated either.


----------



## Savant

Was going to say I don't think any team has had a harder schedule than Bremen to start the season.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> Was going to say I don't think any team has had a harder schedule than Bremen to start the season.




Hoffenheim away and Bayern at home are what, probably 2 of their 4 toughest fixtures all year?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> I wouldn't say American sports leagues are exemplary about it either. Unless there is a gruesome video of it happening, and even then, reluctantly so.




They definitely aren't, but its at least something that followers of the sport talk and care about. There have been a few notable cases like this in European football, usually the only ones saying anything are feminists or women's groups, which really shouldn't be the case. Its a pretty awful problem that everyone should find unacceptable, regardless of your beliefs or who someone is.


----------



## Nalens Oga

I don't understand what your point is. It isn't accepted but if someone is working at their job then they're working at their job and you can't do anything about it as a fan. It's like a politician that has a scandal but stays in power.

Footballers are often ****** people in top European leagues, there have been plenty of dirtbags like Coman, it's a cut-throat business though and if the player is good and the team has money tied up in him then they'll try to make it work regardless of what I think about it.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Why does European football act so lax with Domestic Violence?
> 
> The law is the law, so we don't need to play amateur lawyers, that was handled by the French court system and they ruled what they did, but how does Coman not catch any flack within football for being guilty of attacking his girlfriend who was pregnant with their child?* If Coman was an NFL player* or basketball player or hockey player, *he'd never play another game*. Yet in football, its swept under the rug, convinced woman abusers are not even scolded.




Yeah this is just incredibly untrue.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nalens Oga said:


> I don't understand what your point is. It isn't accepted but if someone is working at their job then they're working at their job and you can't do anything about it as a fan. It's like a politician that has a scandal but stays in power.
> 
> Footballers are often ****** people in top European leagues, there have been plenty of dirtbags like Coman, it's a cut-throat business though and if the player is good and the team has money tied up in him then they'll try to make it work regardless of what I think about it.




Uhhh fans don't want their money going to pay domestic abusers? Fan pressure can make a club sell a player.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Yeah this is just incredibly untrue.




I'll amend that. There's a chance he'd never play another game. In NA sports, some have and some haven't. Usually the more gruesome stories lead to never playing again. An argument with a spouse with vague reports and no cooperation from the spouse usually leads to a small suspension and some bad press. I'd say his situation is somewhere in between that, so at least a big suspension, like 3 or 4 months. And we can argue back and forth on how things work in NA vs. Europe, and all that, but I think this is something that should be universal, this is not like the salary cap thread. In this case, the guy plead guilty to beating up his ex-girlfriend, she missed 8 days of work, so while I won't play amateur lawyer, it does seem like a rather significant injury. These are also not just allegations, they legally on record happened, I don't think anyone sane doubts that. 

I'm not going to try to condemn the French courts with how they dealt with this as I don't know the entire case and how the French legal system exactly works, but Bayern Munich as one of the world's leading clubs certainly should take a stand against abhorrent behavior from one of their employees. Minimum 3 or 4 months suspension, I'd say. Instead, no one cares about this, which is really sad.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> I don't understand what your point is. It isn't accepted but if someone is working at their job then they're working at their job and you can't do anything about it as a fan. It's like a politician that has a scandal but stays in power.
> 
> Footballers are often ****** people in top European leagues, there have been plenty of dirtbags like Coman, it's a cut-throat business though and if the player is good and the team has money tied up in him then they'll try to make it work regardless of what I think about it.




People who want this **** swept under the rug will forever hide behind the "private life is different from work" line of thought with these athletes who turn violent, but if you are an employee for a company, they decide who they hire, fire, keep, not keep. He works for them, he gets paid by them and some of these clubs are owned by the people, so I'd think what the fans think of it should matter. If one of their employees did something that they think is completely against their values as a company, I'd expect them to act.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> *People who want this **** swept under the rug will forever hide behind the "private life is different from work" line of thought with these athletes who turn violent*, but if you are an employee for a company, they decide who they hire, fire, keep, not keep. He works for them, he gets paid by them and some of these clubs are owned by the people, so I'd think what the fans think of it should matter. *If one of their employees did something that they think is completely against their values as a company, I'd expect them to act.*




Again like I said, this has nothing to do with people wanting it to be swept under the rug. I never said it should be, I'm being pragmatic and living in the reality that it is swept under the rug by clubs and players like him are still going to be playing.

And the club didn't act. So again, what do we do about that? Mention it every time his name is brought up or something? He's still there, that's not sweeping it under the rug, that's just the reality of the situation.


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> Hoffenheim away and Bayern at home are what, probably 2 of their 4 toughest fixtures all year?




Schalke this week too.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Nalens Oga said:


> You've gotta be kidding me. Felipe's stretchered off 10 minutes in and I know no one normally cares about fantasy stuff but that's the fourth player I've picked in Fantasy Bundesliga since last week that's gotten injured with 3 of those being dmen. , what a curse.




Felipe? Good god. Why did you pick him?


----------



## Bon Esprit

Nalens Oga said:


> *That won't last obviously but I definetely don't expect Hannover to be relegation fodder now*. Should actually be an interesting battle since Stuttgart aren't that bad either, they can hold their own. Bayer deserve more than just 1 point but Werder don't impress me and Cologne are **** imo and missing a proper striker so could be a couple pretty juicy teams getting relegated.




Of course it won't last, but it's 10 points in the bank.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Deficient Mode said:


> Werder isn't getting relegated as long as Kruse is healthy.




Well, so much for that


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> Well, so much for that




Great own goal today too...

How bad is his injury?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> Great own goal today too...
> 
> How bad is his injury?




It looked kind of bad. I've seen speculation that he broke his collarbone.

Werder were still the better team without him. They're still playing really nice football. Undone by a flukey corner against the run of play.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Kimmich is incredible. Not many full backs score goals+assists at a higher rate the past season and a bit. And to think people criticized his offense at Euro 2016.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

So, AScacibar already dominating the Bundesliga? 

Didn't see the game but according to who scored he put in a MOTM performance? Not bad for his first start.


----------



## Nalens Oga

What a stupid penalty to give up, RB were dominating the game too. They should still win this.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> So, AScacibar already dominating the Bundesliga?
> 
> Didn't see the game but according to who scored he put in a MOTM performance? Not bad for his first start.




Well, one of the worst teams in the Bundesliga at least.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Class goal from Augustin. Really impressed with him.


----------



## Nalens Oga

RB midfield is really dominating Gladbach, doesn't help that Kramer keeps dropping back so much.


----------



## Albatros

Deficient Mode said:


> Kimmich is incredible. Not many full backs score goals+assists at a higher rate the past season and a bit. And to think people criticized his offense at Euro 2016.




Might be technically true, but his goals are overwhelmingly from other positions.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Keita has been a bit too nonchalant with the ball this year. His possession loss numbers are way up. 



Albatros said:


> Might be technically true, but his goals are overwhelmingly from other positions.




He also barely played as a right back last season because Carlo didn't want him there. Yet he has a goal and 8 assists in 8 matches of WM qualification playing exclusively (as far as I can recall) as a RB, and the 3 assists today.


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> Keita has been a bit too nonchalant with the ball this year. His possession loss numbers are way up.




He is coming of an injury. Nice assist today though.


----------



## cgf

Atta boy stindl. Wait for me to turn the game on to equalize with a beautiful shot


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Keita has been a bit too nonchalant with the ball this year. His possession loss numbers are way up.
> 
> 
> 
> He also barely played as a right back last season because Carlo didn't want him there. Yet he has a goal and 8 assists in 8 matches of WM qualification playing exclusively (as far as I can recall) as a RB, and the 3 assists today.




For the NT Kimmich has played RB in the back 4, and both RWB & RCB in the back 3.


----------



## cgf

I love kramer under pressure/in tight space <3


----------



## YNWA14

Zakaria looks very good.


----------



## Live in the Now

Was just about to post the same thing. Will be able to have his choice of club to play at in no time at all.


----------



## Albatros

Deficient Mode said:


> He also barely played as a right back last season because Carlo didn't want him there. Yet he has a goal and 8 assists in 8 matches of WM qualification playing exclusively (as far as I can recall) as a RB, and the 3 assists today.




Sure, but with two career goals as a fullback I think it is impossible to determine whether he can be a genuine scoring threat from that position - if it is to be expected. As things are now, I can still envision him as a semi-permanent central midfielder.


----------



## cgf

Did Upamecano give the penalty away or is he waiting for a more dramatic moment? Great power, speed, good skill, but omg do few players better exemplify the phrase "bull in a china shop".


----------



## Evilo

cgf said:


> Did Upamecano give the penalty away or is he waiting for a more dramatic moment? Great power, speed, good skill, but omg do few players better exemplify the phrase "bull in a china shop".



Was RBL's best player against Monaco.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Did Upamecano give the penalty away or is he waiting for a more dramatic moment? Great power, speed, good skill, but omg do few players better exemplify the phrase "bull in a china shop".




Pretty sure it was Bernardo if I remember correctly.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> Sure, but with two career goals as a fullback I think it is impossible to determine whether he can be a genuine scoring threat from that position - if it is to be expected. As things are now, I can still envision him as a semi-permanent central midfielder.




TBH I like him most next Hummels & Boateng in a back 3 with Kroos / Weigl / Rudy right in front of them...and probably a Gundogan / Kramer / Dahoud / Demirbay / Amiri linking them to Mesut & the attackers. Let Brandt / Sane / Hector / Weiser / Gnabry cover the wings and there should be plenty of great opportunities for Mueller / Werner / Stindl / Reus / Brandt / Draxler to finish


----------



## Deficient Mode

Easy red card, and honestly it wasn't a good match for Keita before that, either.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> Was RBL's best player against Monaco.




He's been awesome to start the year, but he clumsily gave away a penalty in the opener and has shown a tendency to muscle his way into challenges that many refs won't let him get away with.


----------



## cgf

I love Hassenhuttl's balls, shame he's poor at organizing possession. If he had that tactical brilliance in his repertoire I'd absolutely adore him as a coach.


----------



## YNWA14

Live in the Now said:


> Was just about to post the same thing. Will be able to have his choice of club to play at in no time at all.




Agreed. Gladbach was a great step for him. I'd love for Liverpool to visit that option in the summer but that's wishful thinking.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> I love Hassenhuttl's balls, shame he's poor at organizing possession. If he had that tactical brilliance in his repertoire I'd absolutely adore him as a coach.




I think they are arranged well in possession. They were excellent at breaking through Gladbach's passive 4-4-2 in the first half for instance. IDK.


----------



## cgf

From what I saw that was a little disappointing of a result for Gladbach, as I missed their apparently dreadful first 30 minutes, but in the end I'm satisfied with the result. BMG could've really used the win, but I like both teams and an entertaining 2-2 is a result I can't gripe with.

Has Bernardo ever impressed? I usually don't mind young german talents being rotated with a lesser but more experienced player, but I've never seen anything from Bernardo that has convinced me. Klostermann on the otherhand reminds me of a german Elvedi.



Deficient Mode said:


> I think they are arranged well in possession. They were excellent at breaking through Gladbach's passive 4-4-2 in the first half for instance. IDK.




I only started watching around the 55th minute so can't comment, but their structure against Schalke's bus was dreadful and they usually seem aimless & short of ideas when unable to run & forced to methodically breaking a team down. 

Hopefully Hassenhuttl is learning...and it wasn't just having Laimer & Kampl around Keita & Forsberg behind the forwards taking advantage of BMG's sloppiness. I'm rooting for RB to carry the flag for the east until we can join them in the top division


----------



## Theokritos

Deficient Mode said:


> Uhhh fans don't want their money going to pay domestic abusers? Fan pressure can make a club sell a player.




Soccer players get money for playing soccer, not for being good persons.


----------



## Nalens Oga

RB are idiots for resting players against Gladbach instead of Augsburg imo. Left Sabitzer and Orban out of the squad entirely and had Demme starting on the bench.

If they were going to rest a player then rest Keita he was coming off an injury.


----------



## cgf

Nalens Oga said:


> RB are idiots for resting players against Gladbach instead of Augsburg imo. Left Sabitzer and Orban out of the squad entirely and had Demme starting on the bench.
> 
> If they were going to rest a player then rest Keita he was coming off an injury.




Having Laimer out there instead of Demme seems to have helped RB significantly before BMG took charge. Demme is very mediocre, like Orban. 

And Kampl is actually a better player than sabitzer, although he's better suited to the 8 than the wing.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Theokritos said:


> Soccer players get money for playing soccer, not for being good persons.




And their money is paid for by the fans and if the fans don't want their club to be supported by domestic abusers they can protest. Are fans also wrong if a player - say - trashes the club in the newspaper or openly says he wants to play somewhere else even if the player is still playing soccer well?



Nalens Oga said:


> RB are idiots for resting players against Gladbach instead of Augsburg imo. Left Sabitzer and Orban out of the squad entirely and had Demme starting on the bench.
> 
> If they were going to rest a player then rest Keita he was coming off an injury.




It was probably necessitated by playing in the Champions League. Their schedule is crowded for the rest of the month, too, but you don't want to make the same players all play three matches in eight days. Red Bull will have to deal with this problem, which they didn't have last season.


----------



## Theokritos

Deficient Mode said:


> And their money is paid for by the fans and if the fans don't want their club to be supported by domestic abusers they can protest.




They can. But frankly, why should they care? I know I wouldn't if I was a Bayern fan. 



Deficient Mode said:


> Are fans also wrong if a player - say - trashes the club in the newspaper or openly says he wants to play somewhere else...




Those acts are soccer-related and therefore very relevant in the eyes of most soccer fans. The same can't be said domestic abuse.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Theokritos said:


> They can. But frankly, why should they care? I know I wouldn't if I was a Bayern fan.




Uhhh, people don't want their club to be represented by awful people? Because most clubs are about more than the on the pitch product?


----------



## Theokritos

Deficient Mode said:


> Uhhh, people don't want their club to be represented by awful people?




Judging by the absence of protests by Bayern fans? What you want people to want and care about is one thing. What they actually want and care about is another.


----------



## Cassano

Deficient Mode said:


> Uhhh, people don't want their club to be represented by awful people? Because most clubs are about more than the on the pitch product?




Doesn't seem to be an issue with Bayern (ie Ribery). I'm sure if Coman was a superstar, it would be swept under the rug.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Theokritos said:


> Judging by the absence of protests by Bayern fans? What you want people to want and care about is one thing. What they actually want and care about is another.




The question is why isn't it a bigger issue in soccer in general. Not about Bayern fans toward Coman. As a fan of a different club, I care about it.



DrRecchi said:


> Doesn't seem to be an issue with Bayern (ie Ribery). I'm sure if Coman was a superstar, it would be swept under the rug.




Yep. It's Bayern. 

Thing is, Coman is a level or two below Ribery's talent level. I don't think a big deal will be made of it anyway.


----------



## Albatros

Christian Lell was ****, and still got away with the same deplorable crimes. I wouldn't compare RibÃ©ry to these two idiots.


----------



## Vipers31

When the actual justice system states that this incident is a deal that is exactly big enough to warrant a €5,000 fine (which - I'd assume - is calculated based on the high salary that Coman earns and would roughly be the equivalent to an average Joe paying a €50-100 fine), then I don't think anyone can really make a sound case on why this should be treated as a bigger deal. An actual judge who knew all the facts basically said "yeah, this isn't great, hope you learned your lesson, and now everybody get outta here so I can work on bigger deals". There's zero reason to think this would need to be made a bigger deal out of, unless a lot more about the facts has been made public than I know.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Still first.

In other news:

Holstein Kiel leading the 2. Bundesliga. Two underdogs from the north.


----------



## Theokritos

Deficient Mode said:


> The question is why isn't it a bigger issue in soccer in general.




Why should it be a bigger issue?


----------



## Nalens Oga

Bosz really likes Phillip, no Pulisic to start today. Could see another blow-out today though, Koln and Freiburg have been the two worse teams.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Theokritos said:


> Why should it be a bigger issue?




Because domestic abuse is really, really bad and has negative long-term effects on the victim far worse than the immediate physical one...



Nalens Oga said:


> Bosz really likes Phillip, no Pulisic to start today. Could see another blow-out today though, Koln and Freiburg have been the two worse teams.




Just the need for rotation again. Yarmolenko, Pulisic, and Philipp will have each played 2 of the past 3 matches.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nice finish from Philipp.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Please wrap this up early, so we can rest Auba. He's going to end up getting tired out playing this many matches. Get Isak some minutes, but the game has to be over before we do that.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Please wrap this up early, so we can rest Auba. He's going to end up getting tired out playing this many matches. Get Isak some minutes, but the game has to be over before we do that.




Can always play Philipp between Pulisic and Yarmolenko against Hamburg. Though Auba is accustomed to this heavy fixture schedule and has shown he can handle it unlike the others.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Play Pulisic


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Can always play Philipp between Pulisic and Yarmolenko against Hamburg. Though Auba is accustomed to this heavy fixture schedule and has shown he can handle it unlike the others.




Definitely, but ideally, its 3-0 at halftime, we get Isak on for Auba and Weigl on for Sahin. With a midweek game, we could really benefit from getting this over with fast. 



MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Play Pulisic




He's played too many minutes the last month, needs a rest. This was the right match to rest him.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> He's played too many minutes the last month, needs a rest. This was the right match to rest him.




Fair. 

Atleast Robben is equally as exciting. He was a good buy.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Castro has too much influence in this team. I worry that because of that he's going to stick around getting minutes way longer than he deserves. He's a good locker room guy and all that, he seems widely respected, but he seems to act like he's a big shot within the club and his teammates seem to oblige it.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Castro has too much influence in this team. I worry that because of that he's going to stick around getting minutes way longer than he deserves. He's a good locker room guy and all that, he seems widely respected, but he seems to act like he's a big shot within the club and his teammates seem to oblige it.




I've never seen what he brings. To me he is another midfielder who can make simple passes and the occasional dribble.


----------



## Deficient Mode

That head snap didn't look good at all. I hope it wasn't a concussion. Toljan in and Zagadou to CB?



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Definitely, but ideally, its 3-0 at halftime, we get Isak on for Auba and Weigl on for Sahin. With a midweek game, we could really benefit from getting this over with fast.
> 
> 
> 
> He's played too many minutes the last month, needs a rest. This was the right match to rest him.




In an ideal world it's always Dortmund 3-0 at halftime.


----------



## Deficient Mode

I love VAR. 

Haha all the KÃ¶ln players and coaches who didn't see the replay are furious.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Hmmm... I hope it was the right call


----------



## Theokritos

Deficient Mode said:


> Because domestic abuse is really, really bad and has negative long-term effects on the victim far worse than the immediate physical one...




That would be a reason to debate about the existing laws concerning domestic abuse. It's got nothing to do with soccer.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Oh, Toljan is out injured. Well good thing Sokratis kept playing; the only alternative is Subotic, and Dortmund would have been down to just four healthy players for the four back line positions.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Theokritos said:


> That would be a reason to debate about the existing laws concerning domestic abuse. It's got nothing to do with soccer.




Neither do any of the other political issues that make their way into fan culture. Almost like it's not just about the on-the-pitch product...

Even in the EU, employers can terminate an employee's contract for a criminal conviction. The attitude that it's best left to the criminal justice system is just an expression of indifference to domestic abuse.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Have we been that good or Koln that bad? Or both?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Too many shots from outside the box, as usual. I really hope that Sahin won't be preferred to Weigl because he's more willing and a bit better at shooting from distance....


----------



## Theokritos

Deficient Mode said:


> Neither do any of the other political issues that make their way into fan culture. Almost like it's not just about the on-the-pitch product...




I don't see too many instances of political issues making their way into fan culture. Almost like 90% of the fans of 90% of the clubs don't really care. 



Deficient Mode said:


> The attitude that it's best left to the criminal justice system is just an expression of indifference to domestic abuse.




No, it's an expression of indifference to things that happen away from the pitch and have nothing to do with soccer. Most fans don't pay to see good persons, they pay to see good soccer players.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Have we been that good or Koln that bad? Or both?




Ehh, I wouldn't say that Dortmund have generated a ton of super high quality chances, but KÃ¶ln have made the mistake of contesting Dortmund's territorial and possession dominance and given more space in the final third compared to Freiburg. Kind of necessary though after they conceded the goal off the slightest opening in the first five minutes.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Theokritos said:


> I don't see too many instances of political issues making their way into fan culture. Almost like 90% of the fans of 90% of the clubs don't really care.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's an expression of indifference to things that happen away from the pitch and have nothing to do with soccer. Most fans don't pay to see good persons, they pay to see good soccer players.




Like I said, indifference...


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Game over. Weigl and Isak in now.


----------



## Theokritos

Deficient Mode said:


> Like I said, indifference...




But not to domestic abuse specifically. It's general indifference to non-soccer related events off the pitch.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Game over. Weigl and Isak in now.




You gunna watch the BMW?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Really nice play by Dahoud. And the finish by Philipp again.


----------



## Ceremony

Theokritos said:


> I don't see too many instances of political issues making their way into fan culture. Almost like 90% of the fans of 90% of the clubs don't really care.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's an expression of indifference to things that happen away from the pitch and have nothing to do with soccer. Most fans don't pay to see good persons, they pay to see good soccer players.


----------



## Theokritos

Ceremony said:


>




I don't know what you want to say.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Back to your regularly scheduled procession of clean sheets.


----------



## Ceremony

Theokritos said:


> I don't know what you want to say.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ched_Evans#Attempts_to_find_a_new_club_prior_to_his_acquittal


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> You gunna watch the BMW?




Yes, and now its getting interesting.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Still yet to allow a goal in the league.


----------



## Theokritos

Ceremony said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ched_Evans#Attempts_to_find_a_new_club_prior_to_his_acquittal




Okay, but I still don't understand what you want to tell me.


----------



## Ceremony

Theokritos said:


> Okay, but I still don't understand what you want to tell me.




You're wrong, and football (and sport in general) absolutely has an obligation to at least act in some fashion when players commit crimes. At a level like Bayern's, with the value of Coman in terms of resale, morals will be completely disregarded because of the money that can be involved. But at lower, more realistic levels of football, there is and should be backlash.


----------



## Theokritos

Ceremony said:


> You're wrong, and football (and sport in general) absolutely has an obligation to at least act in some fashion when players commit crimes.




Well, I disagree.


----------



## Bon Esprit

According to kicker Wolfsburg are close to fire Jonker.

What did WOB expect? A bunch of no-names plus Gomez and they'll challenge for EL?


----------



## Evilo

I'm having a crack seeing a US citizen saying europeans should be more sensitive to off field violence and fire their players.
Isn't the US the country where a guy is signed by zero team because he expressed a political opinion about the way black people are treated in his country? Even though he clearly is among the best at his position?

Imagine if Neymar said black people should be treated better and nobody was signing him because of it?


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> I'm having a crack seeing a US citizen saying europeans should be more sensitive to off field violence and fire their players.
> Isn't the US the country where a guy is signed by zero team because he expressed a political opinion about the way black people are treated in his country? Even though he clearly is among the best at his position?
> 
> Imagine if Neymar said black people should be treated better and nobody was signing him because of it?




Kaep being a god awful QB is a big part of it that the media often forgets to mention; but yeah, the NFL is about as bad as it gets when it comes to sweeping s*** under the rug.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Evilo said:


> I'm having a crack seeing a US citizen saying europeans should be more sensitive to off field violence and fire their players.
> Isn't the US the country where a guy is signed by zero team because he expressed a political opinion about the way black people are treated in his country? Even though he clearly is among the best at his position?
> 
> Imagine if Neymar said black people should be treated better and nobody was signing him because of it?




You shouldn't stereotype about how Americans perceive off-field actions of athletes. 

It shouldn't matter what country you come from or anything like that, Coman beat up his girlfriend very badly because she used his instagram account to promote a product or something like that. I don't know about you, but I think thats someone who should have to learn from his actions. This is not a speeding ticket or littering. A long suspension from his employer seems appropriate.


----------



## Evilo

And again, US NFL teams believe it's appropriate to "suspend" someone because he demands more equality for black people.

And I'm pretty sure the first to stereotype was you ("europeans").


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Evilo said:


> And again, US NFL teams believe it's appropriate to "suspend" someone because he demands more equality for black people.
> 
> And I'm pretty sure the first to stereotype was you ("europeans").




European teams, not the fans is the issue. Teams sweep this under the rug way too often because they don't want to have to hurt the sporting side of their team. It doesn't matter what the fans think. This is about the clubs. I'd hope the fans care, but in the end, its up to the club executives to make these decisions. Is that stereotyping? I don't know, but I think its true. I can't remember the last club that took action against a violent criminal offender. Maybe it was Sunderland when they realized that Adam Johnson was a pedophile, but even still, they waited a long time to terminate his contract, didn't do it right away. You could even say that UEFA or DFB could step in here, and do something about it.


----------



## Evilo

And as I said, OTOH, US teams put a black activist out of job.
Great example.


----------



## Theokritos

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Coman beat up his girlfriend very badly because she used his instagram account to promote a product or something like that. I don't know about you, but I think thats someone who should have to learn from his actions. This is not a speeding ticket or littering. A long suspension from his employer seems appropriate.




Why should the suspend him? It's not up to an employer to sanction illegal behavior by employees that have nothing to do with the employees' occupation. That's what courts are here for, not football clubs.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Theokritos said:


> Why should the suspend him? It's not up to an employer to sanction illegal behavior by employees that have nothing to do with the employees' occupation. That's what courts are here for, not football clubs.




Completely disagree. 

There is no official guideline on who decides what punishment. And frankly, this stuff happens all the time with non-public figures. Employers often punish their employees for behavior outside the workplace.


----------



## cgf

Kaep's horrible play & utter lack of development since his rookie season were already driving him out of a job before he started any of his activism. Not defending the NFL by any stretch of the imagination, so don't twist it that way, but I'm just saying. Kaepernik wasn't long for the NFL whether he spoke up or not. Kudos to him for speaking up, but he wasn't exactly throwing away an NFL career to speak up.


----------



## Evilo

It's laughable to suggest no NFL team could use him. Laughable.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> It's laughable to suggest no NFL team could use him. Laughable.




Any NFL team could use him, he'd be a great bit of PR and they league owners could look marginally less antiquated. But Kaepernik never learned how to be a QB. So as he took more hits and defenses learned to defend against his legs, his functionality became comparable to that of Geno Smith / Josh Johnson.


----------



## Evilo

Again, laughable statement. There are some god-awful QBs in this league that will never be half as good as him and they have a job. 
Clearly, he never reached the level he had in his first year and didn't develop as hoped. He's still better than half of the NFL's QB.

The reason he's not playing has nothing to do with his level of play.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> Again, laughable statement. There are some god-awful QBs in this league that will never be half as good as him and they have a job.
> Clearly, he never reached the level he had in his first year and didn't develop as hoped. He's still better than half of the NFL's QB.
> 
> The reason he's not playing has nothing to do with his level of play.




Well that's just no where near being accurate. Kaep just got worse & worse until he was hot garbage on the field before becoming an activist.

The NFL are s***heads for keeping him from even getting a chance, but his play has become insanely over-stated.


----------



## Evilo

That's hardly true.
He never had a losing season.
Started all but 2 games in his SF career since he took over the starting spot.
Had a positive TD/Int rating in every single season.
Not a single positive QB rating player had ever been unemployed for as long as him.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/colin-kaepernick-is-not-supposed-to-be-unemployed/
You need to open your eyes and see the obvious : he's ignored because of his political statements, nothing else.


----------



## Live in the Now

If anyone watched the games today and think he's not better than some of the people who start then lol.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Kaepernick is definitely at the very least a top 50 QB in the NFL. If you're controversial in your outspokenness on police brutality or the league's partnership with the US military, you'd better be completely indispensable. On the other hand, if you're a likely rapist or a domestic abuser, the owners will gladly keep you. 

I agree that there is a bigger portion of fans of the NFL who will audibly protest domestic abusers and the blacklisting of a black activist than in Europe, but then again, no European football league is nearly as awful in its politics as the NFL. It's also far harder to terminate an employee's contract in the EU than in the US, so that probably plays into it too.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Oh come on, the thread's been derailed again about anything but the actual soccer. NFL talk in a Bundesliga thread, .

Go argue your stupid arguments in the lounge.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nalens Oga said:


> Oh come on, the thread's been derailed again about anything but the actual soccer. NFL talk in a Bundesliga thread, .
> 
> Go argue your stupid arguments in the lounge.




You seem pretty upset about something so trivial.


----------



## Halladay

He is still is not a good quarterback and has regressed from 2012. Teams just don't want to deal with the circus that comes with him. I don't blame them.


----------



## Theokritos

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> There is no official guideline on who decides what punishment.




Right. That's why Bayern are free to do nothing about Coman. 



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> And frankly, this stuff happens all the time with non-public figures. Employers often punish their employees for behavior outside the workplace.




They do? I'm unaware of that.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

I was like, why are we talking about Kaepernick in the German football thread? I had to go back 4 pages to trace it back to Coman. 

To give you a simple answer here that applies to both scenarios and Europe and the U.S. alike. The reality is that businesses hate negative PR and love profits more than they care about any particular issue. 

As a result there are two curves here. One is generated negative PR, the other is generated value. Once your generated value is less than the negative PR, you're done. How much controversy your career will be able to take highly depends on what you can do for the people who sign your paychecks. If you're the best at what you do and what you do is making people very rich then you can basically do what you want. 

But the same principle applies whether you're applying for an office job or NFL quarterback..if they're not sure you're the best option i.e. if your value is not a sure thing, they'll take the low controversy option every single time.

Now it is undeniable that Kaepernick's story has generated a lot more P.R. than the Coman case - or the Ribery case before. In Kaepernick's case, it's a self-defeating thing because he and his supporters are generating the P.R. themselves. Because the problem of Kaepernick's stance is that it's polarizing. In other words, the more you talk about his stance because you like it, the more you annoy someone else who disagrees with it. The way to save Kaepernick's career is for him to move on from that issue.

He knows that, his supporters know that. But political objectives are far more important to them than whether Kaepernick plays in the NFL. That's fair but also has the outcome you currently see.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Vipers31 said:


> When the actual justice system states that this incident is a deal that is exactly big enough to warrant a €5,000 fine (which - I'd assume - is calculated based on the high salary that Coman earns and would roughly be the equivalent to an average Joe paying a €50-100 fine), then I don't think anyone can really make a sound case on why this should be treated as a bigger deal. An actual judge who knew all the facts basically said "yeah, this isn't great, hope you learned your lesson, and now everybody get outta here so I can work on bigger deals". There's zero reason to think this would need to be made a bigger deal out of, unless a lot more about the facts has been made public than I know.




I wouldn't say what a judge decides is a fair standard for how people should react to what happened. The law is the law, and we can accept what the judge decided, but that doesn't mean Bayern shouldn't act themselves as his employer. And if he doesn't like that, he can quit. He's an employee for Bayern, not the other way around.

Very often, these legal cases result in nothing due to a lack of evidence over what can be proven or someone not cooperating or some deal being struck. I think it also helps Coman out that he's a high profile athlete, although thats not to say that made any difference, but it could.

What we know is that Coman injured his girlfriend. She missed 8 days of work due to her injuries. Seems pretty serious for someone to miss 8 days of work, although beyond that not that many details are known. I'm sure Bayern could do an investigation themselves and figure out exactly what happened. And if it was very serious, then I believe they should act. If I was a Bayern fan, I'd want to know what exactly happened because I think that would sway my opinion whether or not I'd be able to root for Coman, and accept how the club handled the situation.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Wrong football guys


----------



## Nalens Oga

Anyone see Jetro Willems on Eintracht Frankfurt play? That guy's a bull


----------



## YNWA14

Nalens Oga said:


> Anyone see Jetro Willems on Eintracht Frankfurt play? That guy's a bull




Is that a compliment?

He's always been extremely talented. Lazy and had some injury issues. Amazing going forward but his defensive tendencies have always been up and down.


----------



## Vipers31

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I wouldn't say what a judge decides is a fair standard for how people should react to what happened.



It certainly is the most fair standard there is. Forming some diverging opinion based on flimsy reports that make it to the public certainly isn't up to a higher moral standard.



> The law is the law, and we can accept what the judge decided, but that doesn't mean Bayern shouldn't act themselves as his employer.



The law is indeed the law, and that is the institution we have in our society that is erected to judge these things - not some private corporations who aren't bound by rules to ensure a fair process. Bayern absolutely should not attempt to take justice into their hands, unless he tells club officials that he did something worse than he was convicted for or treats his punishment with public disrespect. It's not Bayern's place in society to put themselves above a Court of the French people, in this case.



> Very often, these legal cases result in nothing due to a lack of evidence over what can be proven or someone not cooperating or some deal being struck.



And when a case falters because of a lack of evidence, it just might be right, on every moral level, to respect the obviously real possibility that someone is simply innocent. That's what the rules the rules are carefully erected for; asking some private corporation to ignore that and pass other judgement just because some people with little to no knowledge of the facts feel it might be more fair is certainly not morally superior - or even equal - to respecting the decision of the institution that a society has put up to handle these things.



> I'm sure Bayern could do an investigation themselves and figure out exactly what happened.



Frankly, that's beyond absurd. You think a private corporation - with no experience of any sort in conducting pseudo-criminal-investigations - is better equipped to find out the truth than the French justice system? With their independent officers taking testimony and collecting evidence based on decades on an individual and centuries on an institutional level of education and experience? With judges who are trained to evaluate that evidence, to which the same applies? And some football club is supposed to do a better job figuring out truth and justice by, I suppose, hiring someone who has at least the slightest idea about these matters? That is beyond absurd. And it actually would present an enormous danger to society if that's how corporations attempted to do things.



> If I was a Bayern fan, I'd want to know what exactly happened because I think that would sway my opinion whether or not I'd be able to root for Coman, and accept how the club handled the situation.



You just have to be able to accept that justice has already been passed by the best possible existing standard. No absurd club investigation is going to clear or blame his name any more. The club not disavowing a young employee that by all accounts made a mistake and paid the price that society's way of passing judgement deemed fair is a perfectly fine way for any club to handle an issue like that. The club shouldn't try to cater to parts of an ignorant public looking for some kind of alternative pseudo-justice, because they aren't happy with what the actual justice system found.


----------



## Theokritos

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I wouldn't say what a judge decides is a fair standard for how people should react to what happened.




If you truly believe that, then your issue is not with Bayern, but with the laws concerning domestic abuse respectively the judicature. 



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> The law is the law, and we can accept what the judge decided, but that doesn't mean Bayern shouldn't act themselves as his employer.




At the same time, it doesn't mean Bayern should act themselves just because some people over in America think they should. 



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> And if he doesn't like that, he can quit. He's an employee for Bayern, not the other way around.




Your fantasy is running away with you. Coman has no reason to quit because Bayern is doing nothing about it. And there is nothing wrong with that either. 



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Very often, these legal cases result in nothing due to a lack of evidence over what can be proven or someone not cooperating or some deal being struck.




Good point. Evidence and proof, who needs those things? Let's just punish the guy right away. 



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I'm sure Bayern could do an investigation themselves and figure out exactly what happened.




Yeah. Sure. Forget courts of justice. Let the employer do "investigations" into things that have nothing to do with the field of employment at hand. And let the employer determine which punishment is fair. Feudalism 2.0, here we come. 



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> If I was a Bayern fan, I'd want to know what exactly happened because I think that would sway my opinion whether or not I'd be able to root for Coman, and accept how the club handled the situation.




Meanwhile, actual Bayern fans don't care. If you doesn't like that, you can quit following European soccer. Deal?


----------



## Bon Esprit

Bon Esprit said:


> According to kicker Wolfsburg are close to fire Jonker.
> 
> What did WOB expect? A bunch of no-names plus Gomez and they'll challenge for EL?




So it happened. Wolfsburg fired Jonker totay.


----------



## Just Win

Bon Esprit said:


> So it happened. Wolfsburg fired Jonker totay.




And replaced him with former Mainz coach Martin Schmidt. Meh.


----------



## mfilipo3

Nalens Oga said:


> Anyone see Jetro Willems on Eintracht Frankfurt play? That guy's a bull




How has he been playing so far? I haven't been able to catch a Frankfurt game yet, just highlights, but I see that he's a regular for them.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Is Willems playing left wing-back or left center-back? 

They use those wing-backs really well. Chandler has made his career the last few years as a wing-back in that formation getting up and down the line putting in crosses.


----------



## Bon Esprit

I just read Manuel Neuer is injured again. Needs surgery.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> I just read Manuel Neuer is injured again. Needs surgery.




Hopefully he's ready for the WM whatever it is and MAtS gets all of the starts for the NT in the meantime.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Vipers31 said:


> It certainly is the most fair standard there is. Forming some diverging opinion based on flimsy reports that make it to the public certainly isn't up to a higher moral standard..




In the U.S. when it comes to this issue, some quarters have long decided that fair trials don't matter, the only thing that matters is the view of people on the internet with an ax to grind.


----------



## YNWA14

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> In the U.S. when it comes to this issue, some quarters have long decided that fair trials don't matter, the only thing that matters is the view of people on the internet with an ax to grind.




Media driven society. It doesn't matter what the truth is it only matters what people believe the truth is, and most of the information people get is 2nd hand and often distant from the truth.


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> In the U.S. when it comes to this issue, some quarters have long decided that fair trials don't matter, the only thing that matters is the view of people on the internet with an ax to grind.




If by that you mean, some quarters recognize that there are no fair trials in the US and the criminal justice system is absurdly unfair, then I agree.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Deficient Mode said:


> If by that you mean, some quarters recognize that there are no fair trials in the US and the criminal justice system is absurdly unfair, then I agree.




Well, color me surprised, that someone from "some quarters" would be an active poster in this thread and it's a fan of hipster darling Borussia Dortmund no less.


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Well, color me surprised, that someone from "some quarters" would be an active poster in this thread and it's a fan of hipster darling Borussia Dortmund no less.




Color me surprised that the Trump admirer and Scotland independence disliker also thinks that the American criminal justice system is fair.


----------



## YNWA14

Deficient Mode said:


> Color me surprised that the Trump admirer and Scotland independence disliker also thinks that the American criminal justice system is fair.




...and is the court of public opinion more fair?

Not that I think the Justice system is 'fair' but it's certainly less easily influenced than the former.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Outrage culture often goes way too far. It's an unspoken tenet of reactionary political practice that there is never a good place to protest however. Leave it out of sports, leave it out of the streets, don't interfere with my commute, and so on. The idea that people should just shut up about a prominent player being accused of sexual assault and getting away with it - and just watch the sport - that's conservatism at its finest.


----------



## Theokritos

Deficient Mode said:


> The idea that people should just shut up about a prominent player being accused of sexual assault and getting away with it - and just watch the sport - that's conservatism at its finest.




For the record, I'm not saying you should just shut up. If you feel it's something that deserve a protest then by all means do your protest. But don't expect everyone will agree with you and support you. I'm too busy watching soccer. If that equals conservativism, then so be it. Since when is conservativism a derogatory term anyway?


----------



## YNWA14

Deficient Mode said:


> Outrage culture often goes way too far. It's an unspoken tenet of reactionary political practice that there is never a good place to protest however. Leave it out of sports, leave it out of the streets, don't interfere with my commute, and so on. The idea that people should just shut up about a prominent player being accused of sexual assault and getting away with it - and just watch the sport - that's conservatism at its finest.




What do you know about the assault? What exact details from the case are public?

Also I think protesting is fine as long as the protest is an educated one.


----------



## Vipers31

Deficient Mode said:


> Outrage culture often goes way too far. It's an unspoken tenet of reactionary political practice that there is never a good place to protest however. Leave it out of sports, leave it out of the streets, don't interfere with my commute, and so on. The idea that people should just shut up about a prominent player being accused of sexual assault and getting away with it - and just watch the sport - that's conservatism at its finest.




Oh, people don't need to shut up about it, they can talk from a position of ignorance all day, all week. It just makes sense for everybody to remain positively aware how little anybody outside of the people involved in that criminal case actually know. As far as I can see, we don't even know the full content of a _single _testimony. Anybody feeling fit to discuss something on that basis, let alone pass judgement on how just the ruling of the French justice system has been (or whether we should be looking at Bayern's front office to conduct an investigation that lives up to higher standards) is just hopelessly lost in this instance. This isn't even water-cooler rumor gossip level. 

I've been a part of the criminal justice system, and I think I'm aware of its shortcomings; I certainly share probably most of your reservations about the US' justice system in particular - while it might not be the biggest issue, my "favourite" one is the jury of one's peers, which is a nice idea in theory, but in reality, it's a trainwreck in trying to pursue truth and justice. (You can have all the experts in the world on the stand telling the jurors about how common false confessions are, at the end of the day, some prosecutor trying to "win" rather than trying to pursue truth and achieve justice can just repeat a catchy slogan like "innocent people don't confess", and the group of people that are on average too badly educated to have a good enough job to want to get out of low-paying jury duty will agree, because they think it makes sense, and they don't care what some big shot university professor tells them with his fancy big words). That's certainly an interesting debate to have - probably more one for the politics board -, but it doesn't get us further on this topic. There's just nothing to go on regarding Coman, him being treated favourably, everything being worse than his punishment would indicate, or Bayern letting him off easy by not - publically - going further than the judge did. 

Since that's been kinda proposed by someone else - from a criminological point of view, Bayern firing him would be counter-productive, on top of everything. The only thing some additional public punishment from Bayern would do is console people who just feel he's gotten off easy based on nothing but their bias. Nothing good is to be gained.


----------



## cgf

Curtinho said:


> Media driven society. It doesn't matter what the truth is it only matters what people believe the truth is, and most of the information people get is 2nd hand and often distant from the truth.




Just because you aren't convicted of domestic abuse doesn't mean you didn't commit it. Trust me.



Deficient Mode said:


> Outrage culture often goes way too far. It's an unspoken tenet of reactionary political practice that there is never a good place to protest however. Leave it out of sports, leave it out of the streets, don't interfere with my commute, and so on. The idea that people should just shut up about a prominent player being accused of sexual assault and getting away with it - and just watch the sport - that's conservatism at its finest.




As a conservative I find that characterization hugely misleading and inaccurate. That's a tenet of the American right, were a basterdized version of conservativism exists, but that doesn't make it a predominantly conservative (small c) position.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Deficient Mode said:


> Color me surprised that the Trump admirer and Scotland independence disliker also thinks that the American criminal justice system is fair.




I don't know what "Scotland independence disliker" has anything to do with this issue.  Scotland already has its own judicial system (and always had it under the terms of the Union), so they already can get their Scottish trials rather than those unfair English ones.

I will tell you that anyone going on about how unfair the American justice system is likely has never stepped foot in a country with a truly unfair justice system. I have. Nobody says *any* judiciary is perfect. It's impossible. I can think of plenty of miscarriages of justice in European countries as well. Where would I rather be a defendant? America or Erdogan's Turkey? Or Putin's Russia for that matter..or China..or Egypt? Yeah I'd probably give it a chance with those nasty American courts.


----------



## Halladay

Cut out the politics.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Wow. This thread became even more of a trainwreck than the salary cap. Damn.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Vipers31 said:


> Oh, people don't need to shut up about it, they can talk from a position of ignorance all day, all week. It just makes sense for everybody to remain positively aware how little anybody outside of the people involved in that criminal case actually know. As far as I can see, we don't even know the full content of a _single _testimony. Anybody feeling fit to discuss something on that basis, let alone pass judgement on how just the ruling of the French justice system has been (or whether we should be looking at Bayern's front office to conduct an investigation that lives up to higher standards) is just hopelessly lost in this instance. This isn't even water-cooler rumor gossip level.
> 
> I've been a part of the criminal justice system, and I think I'm aware of its shortcomings; I certainly share probably most of your reservations about the US' justice system in particular - while it might not be the biggest issue, my "favourite" one is the jury of one's peers, which is a nice idea in theory, but in reality, it's a trainwreck in trying to pursue truth and justice. (You can have all the experts in the world on the stand telling the jurors about how common false confessions are, at the end of the day, some prosecutor trying to "win" rather than trying to pursue truth and achieve justice can just repeat a catchy slogan like "innocent people don't confess", and the group of people that are on average too badly educated to have a good enough job to want to get out of low-paying jury duty will agree, because they think it makes sense, and they don't care what some big shot university professor tells them with his fancy big words). That's certainly an interesting debate to have - probably more one for the politics board -, but it doesn't get us further on this topic. There's just nothing to go on regarding Coman, him being treated favourably, everything being worse than his punishment would indicate, or Bayern letting him off easy by not - publically - going further than the judge did.
> 
> Since that's been kinda proposed by someone else - from a criminological point of view, Bayern firing him would be counter-productive, on top of everything. The only thing some additional public punishment from Bayern would do is console people who just feel he's gotten off easy based on nothing but their bias. Nothing good is to be gained.




They could have suspended him for a while, or made him do some sort of reformative punishment like DÃ¼sseldorf did with Demirbay. 

But again, the discussion quickly turned to the differences between US and European sports culture and justice rather than what Coman specifically did or deserved.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Bremen to get their first win of the season tomorrow or are they ****ed without Kruse? Doesn't look like a very appetizing game, two low scoring sides that don't produce many chances but hopefully at least Wolfsburg having a new manager makes them a bit more disorganized

Also, Robben and Alaba are both out for Bayern (obviously Neuer too now) but I find it concerning that the projected line-up still doesn't include James who's been healthy for a while now and only seen around 1.5 matches worth of minutes.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bremen aren't necessarily ****ed without Kruse. It's a big blow, but they have a lot of other good players to carry the slack. Maybe this will finally give Johannes Eggestein his chance, too.


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> I don't know what "Scotland independence disliker" has anything to do with this issue.  Scotland already has its own judicial system (and always had it under the terms of the Union), so they already can get their Scottish trials rather than those unfair English ones.
> 
> I will tell you that anyone going on about how unfair the American justice system is likely has never stepped foot in a country with a truly unfair justice system. I have. Nobody says *any* judiciary is perfect. It's impossible. I can think of plenty of miscarriages of justice in European countries as well. Where would I rather be a defendant? America or Erdogan's Turkey? Or Putin's Russia for that matter..or China..or Egypt? Yeah I'd probably give it a chance with those nasty American courts.




I've dealt with Putin's Russian courts, and the US legal system is still horribly unfair. Even if not as bad as elsewhere.

The not worst argument falls on deaf ears with something this important



BlameUtley said:


> Cut out the politics.




My b


----------



## cgf

I don't think JoJo is ready yet, though he may be rushed into action...which he may respond to positively. But I don't expect Eggestein to start breaking in until after the winter break.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> I don't think JoJo is ready yet, though he may be rushed into action...which he may respond to positively. But I don't expect Eggestein to start breaking in until after the winter break.




I just checked around and Nouri suggested that Eggestein would be the second option in Kruse's absence, and possibly come on as a sub at some point.


----------



## cgf

Shame the boy was hurt all of last season, or he'd be ready to run with this opportunity. As is they'll test him out n hope he's ready...though I don't think he will be.


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> Bremen aren't necessarily ****ed without Kruse. It's a big blow, but they have a lot of other good players to carry the slack. Maybe this will finally give Johannes Eggestein his chance, too.




Bremen seems like they will live and die on the counter attack. Losing Kruse obviously hurts but Nouri will need to adapt accordingly.


----------



## Bon Esprit

According to kicker and other sources HSV investor Klaus-Michael KÃ¼hne stops his support for the club. This are bad news for Hamburg.

http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...ber-hsv-engagement_fuer-mich-ist-schluss.html


----------



## Albatros

How come bad news? Just continuing until now is not a solution either. The club needs to be rebuilt and if that means playing lower leagues for a while then so be it.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> How come bad news? Just continuing until now is not a solution either. The club needs to be rebuilt and if that means playing lower leagues for a while then so be it.




KÃ¼hne is 80yo. Actually not muchhas changed since he put 50m (his words) into the club over the years. In today's world 50m in one season is nothing when you want to compete. 

I think, he simply gave up.


----------



## Vipers31

Albatros said:


> How come bad news? Just continuing until now is not a solution either. The club needs to be rebuilt and if that means playing lower leagues for a while then so be it.




I get what you mean, but let's not romanticize things - rebuilding without money isn't easier than rebuilding with money. It makes it even harder to get people in there capable of leading such a process.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Vipers31 said:


> I get what you mean, but let's not romanticize things - rebuilding without money isn't easier than rebuilding with money. It makes it even harder to get people in there capable of leading such a process.




That's right. Watch Stuttgart and Hannover last season. You NEED promotion or you are facing hard times. Clubs like NÃ¼rnberg, Kaiserslautern and others can sing that song.


----------



## YNWA14

I hope Johannes Eggestein takes his opportunity and steps up. I bought him a while ago in this Dynasty league after some big hyping of him and I just traded for him again so...yeah lol



cgf said:


> Just because you aren't convicted of domestic abuse doesn't mean you didn't commit it. Trust me.




I don't disagree. Many people go unpunished for many crimes they do commit because of a lack of evidence (or because of money, fear, etc.). That said there are also many people falsely accused, or even falsely convicted as well. There are a lot of flaws in judicial systems in general, but in today's age where people think they are experts on everything because they might read a headline or a facebook article it's very hard to take the 'outrage culture', as DM put it, seriously. The truth is that there are so many intricacies and details in every legal case that people just don't have, nor the education to process, but everyone still wants to have their say on things they're completely ignorant to.

Sorry, last post on the subject.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Neuer will be out until the end of the year. Crap.


----------



## Albatros

Bon Esprit said:


> That's right. Watch Stuttgart and Hannover last season. You NEED promotion or you are facing hard times. Clubs like NÃ¼rnberg, Kaiserslautern and others can sing that song.




Hamburg would not struggle like that, it's a 20 times bigger place than Kaiserslautern. And you can ask the Hannover fans what they think about Kind, many would prefer to be where the 1860 is now if that was the alternative to hunting success with him.


----------



## cgf

Vipers31 said:


> I get what you mean, but let's not romanticize things - rebuilding without money isn't easier than rebuilding with money. It makes it even harder to get people in there capable of leading such a process.




True, but any type of rebuilding requires a change in club thinking that refocused their abilities on finding & developing talent, and letting that talent thrive. That's why I think getting relegated one of those years would have been good for them in the long run.

They are just too trapped in the past as a club, and until that obsession dies they will never move forward.



Albatros said:


> Hamburg would not struggle like that, it's a 20 times bigger place than Kaiserslautern. And you can ask the Hannover fans what they think about Kind, many would prefer to be where the 1860 is now if that was the alternative to hunting success with him.




You probably shouldn't be lecturing a Hannover fan about how Hannover fans feel about their benefactor.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bon Esprit said:


> Neuer will be out until the end of the year. Crap.




Is the back up a viable alternative? Some teams have trouble signing back ups due to them knowing they won't play if they have someone like Neuer in front of them. I'd imagine that might be a problem at Bayern.


----------



## Deficient Mode

KÃ¼hne's involvement didn't seem productive or healthy for HSV.

That sucks for Neuer. Bayern should still get through their CL group and the Bundesliga fine without him.


----------



## Albatros

cgf said:


> You probably shouldn't be lecturing a Hannover fan about how Hannover fans feel about their benefactor.




So why don't you tell us how they feel, and whether Kind is regarded a "benefactor" at all.


----------



## cgf

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Is the back up a viable alternative? Some teams have trouble signing back ups due to them knowing they won't play if they have someone like Neuer in front of them. I'd imagine that might be a problem at Bayern.




He's not the back up yet, but Bayern do have the 17 year old super prospect Christian FrÃ¼chtl, who's trained with the senior squad, and was in their training camp this summer. I don't know how to judge goalkeepers at the youth level, but some believe he will someday supplant MAtS as Neuer's NT successor.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> So why don't you tell us how they feel, and whether Kind is regarded a "benefactor" at all.




Why don't you look through BE's posting history on the subject if he doesn't feel like re-hashing it for you? I'm not a Hannover fan so I'm a bad person to ask this question. 

Want me to gush about how badass my eiserne and our fan built stadium are? I'm your guy, but Hannover?  I've only ever even driven through there twice


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> So why don't you tell us how they feel, and whether Kind is regarded a "benefactor" at all.




Martin Kind and the ultras have a longgoing fight over violence and pyros and whatever.
I, like many other supporters, don't like Kind, for different reasons. But everybody in Hannover knows without him there's no pro football here. I call him Norferatu for a reason.


----------



## Albatros

cgf said:


> Why don't you look through BE's posting history on the subject if he doesn't feel like re-hashing it for you? I'm not a Hannover fan so I'm a bad person to ask this question.
> 
> Want me to gush about how badass my eiserne and our fan built stadium are? I'm your guy, but Hannover?  I've only ever even driven through there twice




You wished to comment, so I made the mistake of assuming that you have something to say. My bad.

Unfortunately we're in a situation where RB Leipzig is by no means the least community-oriented team in the league, the fans may not have any say there either but at least the management is not really even pretending anything else. And when a club the size of Hannover exists only for one man instead of the community, then sooner or later that will end badly.


----------



## cgf

I was just pointing out that you were lecturing a Hannover fan about Kind


----------



## cgf

VFB Stuttgart are not very good at this whole football thing.

EDIT:
Can people stop trying to beat up Kramer? Okay a**holes?


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

cgf said:


> VFB Stuttgart are not very good at this whole football thing.
> 
> EDIT:
> Can people stop trying to beat up Kramer? Okay a**holes?




Impossible they have Ascacibar.

Poor guy got it right on the nose.


----------



## cgf

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Impossible they have Ascacibar.
> 
> Poor guy got it right on the nose.




They got some courage from that brief man advantage and Ascacibar has gotten some touches, but so far he hasn't had much of a chance to do anything as they've barely seen the ball.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

cgf said:


> They got some courage from that brief man advantage and Ascacibar has gotten some touches, but so far he hasn't had much of a chance to do anything as they've barely seen the ball.




BMG look like Barca under Pep. 

Ascacibar won't impress you on the ball (he's not bad with it) where he shines on the defensive side tackling and being a ball hound.


----------



## Nalens Oga

cgf said:


> VFB Stuttgart are not very good at this whole football thing.




They have a bunch of injuries. Their central midfield needs more creativity though, Mangala and Ascacibar don't impress me on the ball.


----------



## cgf

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> BMG look like Barca under Pep.
> 
> Ascacibar won't impress you on the ball (he's not bad with it) where he shines on the defensive side tackling and being a ball hound.




He & Mangala have done well getting back into position and helping shut things down around the box.

That was just a nifty run from Ascacibar


----------



## cgf

Nalens Oga said:


> They have a bunch of injuries. Their central midfield needs more creativity though, Mangala and Ascacibar don't impress me on the ball.




Genter & Mane would help, but they just don't hve enough skill or direction with the ball; and the don't press enough to create chances that way. They basically need Terodde to go all Modeste for them and start hammering every half chance the get him into the net...and I'll always love anyone who played for Union, but that's not within Simon's abilities.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Nalens Oga said:


> They have a bunch of injuries. Their central midfield needs more creativity though, Mangala and Ascacibar don't impress me on the ball.






cgf said:


> He & Mangala have done well getting back into position and helping shut things down around the box.
> 
> That was just a nifty run from Ascacibar




Like I said he's not bad on it but that's not what he'll be known for.


----------



## cgf

Hamann and the half time crew were just loving on Ascacibar...didn't realize he went 17 for 17 in his challenges that half, damn.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

cgf said:


> Hamann and the half time crew were just loving on Ascacibar...didn't realize he went 17 for 17 in his challenges that half, damn.




It's time to bend the knee.


----------



## cgf

And now for Evilo, Cuisance comes on for Kramer after Kramer's face got destroyed for the second time in 4 days in the first half.


----------



## Nalens Oga

They put Sabitzer back in and interestingly keep Kampl in the line-up and put Laimer on the bench instead. Upamecano gets a rest I guess, Orban back in.

Also James finally starts a Bundesliga game for Bayern.


----------



## YNWA14

I like that pic; where'd you find it?

Leipzig is fun I think they'll handle Augsburg pretty easily even without Keita.


----------



## cgf

It's nice to see Hassenhuttl not get too caught up with the Kampl as a winger experiment...though Demme should've gone to the bench, not Laimer.

btdubs Raffael <3


----------



## Nalens Oga

Curtinho said:


> I like that pic; where'd you find it?




It's on bundesliga.com when you click on match centre under the fixtures list, taken from the RB twitter I think.


----------



## Savant

Origi scores against Bremen. 

Also Wolfburg has some hideous jerseys this year.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bartels is so good


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> Bartels is so good




Need him to be good with Kruse out


----------



## Nalens Oga

RB's posession game is kinda pointless if they're just gonna end up whipping in a weak cross after all those passes. The connection between the midfield and the strikers just isn't there, I don't think they need to be playing two strikers to begin with, Werner is good enough alone but needs support from the midfield.


----------



## Savant

Liverpool need to sign Delaney


----------



## Vipers31

I can't believe people at Schalke actually believe they got robbed on the PK call.  That's a beyond clear handball. It's amazing how hard it is for people to understand the handball rule. Sure, it's not the easiest, but it's not that hard, either. Certainly doesn't help that the media is constantly pushing the "I don't know what handball is anymore" thing, instead of just educating themselves and the viewers/readers. 

More importantly - great to see the team string together two more inspiring performances, and great to see James have a huge impact in his first start.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Definitely a handball. VAR is such a help. I've seen so many missed calls initially by referees that VAR is correcting. Its getting these questionable calls correct, less controversy with referees missing decisions, the controversy is now on judgement calls, which is what you'd want it to be instead of outright mistakes.

I was surprised that McKennie got the start, played well for a team that was getting beat badly. I'm really liking his progress.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Not that I'd like KÃ¶lle, but they are already behind again. Not good.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I think today's Dortmund back line might be the slowest back line in history. Only slightly joking. Hopefully they are not tested today.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

shinjiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii


----------



## Nalens Oga

Kagawa gets the start instead of Phillip and scores, thought they'd rest one of Sahin or Castro. 

Also, Restos and both Benders start again for Leverkusen so they've benched Tah two matches in a row.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Kagawa is making a case for himself today. Yarmolenko's decision-making on the counter hasn't impressed me today. I feel one of these days Sokratis is going to get burned by VAR; he's so clumsy. Hamburg are testing Dortmund's offside trap even if they haven't gotten much from it yet.

Hoffenheim and Leipzig struggling with all these English weeks. Who'd have thought....


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

So Bosz must be a Sahin fan? Or injuries?


----------



## Deficient Mode

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> So Bosz must be a Sahin fan?




I sort of suspect he is. Weigl is still getting back into shape though.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Dortmund need to do something with Sahin or Castro, their central midfield isn't doing anything and Kagawa is playing as an extra winger instead of midfielder.


----------



## cgf

It's such a shame Oztunali never developed a brain, that speed and technical skill is still ridiculous.

E: Wagner with such a Wagner-y goal

Would you look at that, Hertha started both Duda & Darida and they're up by 2 at halftime, who'd have thunk?...


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

That was a nice half, Yarmo has been a beast.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> Dortmund need to do something with Sahin or Castro, their central midfield isn't doing anything and Kagawa is playing as an extra winger instead of midfielder.




This is the "B" team midfield. Starters are probably Weigl, Dahoud and Goetze once everyone is fit, so its not a big problem, just gotta realize these are the back ups. 

To me, the player struggling most today is Sahin. Looks awful in there. Castro has been his mediocre self, Kagawa's playing well, I think. He also scored.


----------



## Nalens Oga

I'm not a fan of the budget colour commentators BT seems to use.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Yarmalenko is a bit of a selfish player isn't he? Seems to always go for the shot, did on that goal as well but it deflected for an assist.


----------



## Deficient Mode

lol at these gaps between Hamburg's wide defenders and their central defenders. 



Nalens Oga said:


> Yarmalenko is a bit of a selfish player isn't he? Seems to always go for the shot, did on that goal as well but it deflected for an assist.




I'm not as impressed with him today as most Dortmund fans seem to be.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Somehow Dortmund still haven't conceded a goal in league play


----------



## Savant

Ryan Kent had an assist today. That's nice


----------



## samabam

Savant said:


> Ryan Kent had an assist today. That's nice




He did?
my feed tells me the assist goes either to Schuster (kicking the corner) or HÃ¶fler who somehow got in there


----------



## Nalens Oga

Curious as to why Bayer always subs out Bellarabi even though he seems like their most threatening player after Brandt, they did at half-time today for the mediocre Mehmedi. Does he have fitness issues or something?

Also, Bobby Wood is a bit of a useless player to have as a target man isn't he considering how dependent Hamburg's game is on crosses.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

That was a nice performance, even if the back line is just waiting to fall apart. Can't complain about 3-0 on the road. This team might have what it takes to challenge Bayern, if we can stay fit at the back. Gonna need Bartra, Schmelzer, Guerreiro, Toljan back for that because Piszczek, Sokratis and Zagadou at LB can not be starters. Toljan at RB, Piszczek his back up, Toprak and Bartra as the starting CB's, hopefully Zagadou third, although probably the best we can hope for is Sokratis getting dropped to 3, and then eventually we'll get the two LB's back. Dahoud and Weigl have to replace Castro and Sahin soon. There's a gulf in class between the first two and latter two. Dahoud was excellent today, and the front three has been doing well with Reus still to return.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Fantastic ending during Mainz-Hoffenheim.


----------



## Nalens Oga

^^ Well I'm not actually sure if Schmelzer coming back in would be an upgrade to Zagadou at this point. Kid is on good form, let him run with it. And Bartra coming back in would be good but I'm not sure if Sokratis is the guy that should be taken out instead of Toljan.

They also need to find a way to get both of Pulisic and Phillip starting imo, those two have been their best attacking players.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Schmelzer is absolutely an upgrade at LB over Zagadou. The kid has been very good at an unfamiliar position, but he's definitely lacking in stamina and top speed for what you'd want from a LB. 

I don't think Bosz will use a back 3 too often, so Bartra would take Toprak's or preferably Sokratis's spot.


----------



## cgf

How sweet would a back 3 be for them though once they're at full strength?

Reus/Philipp - Aubamayeng
Raphael - Gotze - Dahoud - Pulisic
Weigl
Schmelzer* - Toprak - Bartra

*Zagadou​


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> ^^ Well I'm not actually sure if Schmelzer coming back in would be an upgrade to Zagadou at this point. Kid is on good form, let him run with it. And Bartra coming back in would be good but I'm not sure if Sokratis is the guy that should be taken out instead of Toljan.
> 
> They also need to find a way to get both of Pulisic and Phillip starting imo, those two have been their best attacking players.




I like Zagadou, just not at LB. He tries, but he's not a LB. He adds absolutely 0 offensively at that position, can be beaten for pace, and still struggles with positioning. I'd have him as the 3rd CB, Sokratis form has been really bad in 2017, he should be 4th. Toljan needs to play right-back because Piszczek's game has fallen off a cliff, and he can't be the regular starter at that position anymore, might not even be good enough to play. Ideally its, Schmelzer-Toprak-Bartra-Toljan. Guerreiro back up LB, Zagadou 3rd CB. I might even move Bartra to right-back if Toljan can't play and bring Zagadou in at CB because I have 0 trust in Piszczek's ability anymore. 

I like Philipp, but I don't think he's a starter for this team. I don't think he brings enough from the run of play. I'd prefer Yarmolenko, but I think both take a seat once Reus returns.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

cgf said:


> How sweet would a back 3 be for them though once they're at full strength?
> 
> Reus/Philipp - Aubamayeng
> Raphael - Gotze - Dahoud - Pulisic
> Weigl
> Schmelzer* - Toprak - Bartra
> 
> *Zagadou​




Maybe. The structure of the team would work so much better if Schmelzer or Guerreiro could play on the right. The problem as currently constructed is that there's no real role in the starting lineup for Guerreiro when everyone's fit. Not gonna start over the captain at LB, not gonna start over Reus at LW, don't think he should start over Dahoud or Goetze, so where do you put him? If he or Schmelzer could play RB, you could then play a 4-3-3 with the ideal 11.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Maybe. The structure of the team would work so much better if Schmelzer or Guerreiro could play on the right. The problem as currently constructed is that there's no real role in the starting lineup for Guerreiro when everyone's fit. Not gonna start over the captain at LB, not gonna start over Reus at LW, don't think he should start over Dahoud or Goetze, so where do you put him? If he or Schmelzer could play RB, you could then play a 4-3-3 with the ideal 11.




I don't think it's an issue if he's not the #1 option anywhere. There will always be an injury and a need for rotation, and his ability to fill in at CM, LB, and LW is valuable versatility. This team is deep enough with front 5 players that there will always be a couple quality players left out.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> I don't think it's an issue if he's not the #1 option anywhere. There will always be an injury and a need for rotation, and his ability to fill in at CM, LB, and LW is valuable versatility. This team is deep enough with front 5 players that there will always be a couple quality players left out.




Very true, but I also would not mind trying one of those two out at RB. 

I think everyone recognizes Piszczek is a big problem at this point, and there's no guarantee that Toljan will be up to par as a good starter. He wasn't even starting for Hoffenheim. The team should've brought in a better RB than Toljan, but once it got so late in the window, there weren't many options, so they did the Toljan+Passlack loan deal. I thought that was a very big problem going into the transfer window, Piszczek had a bad season, and he capped it off by being the absolute worst player in the QF's against Monaco. I don't know why that position wasn't priority #1 or 2.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Btw no one has mentioned him in the last several posts so I can't be the only one forgetting him but they still have Schurrle lol.

They really need to sell him and Subotic considering the number of players that have surpassed them in those positions and Reus isn't even healthy yet.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Very true, but I also would not mind trying one of those two out at RB.
> 
> I think everyone recognizes Piszczek is a big problem at this point, and there's no guarantee that Toljan will be up to par as a good starter. He wasn't even starting for Hoffenheim. The team should've brought in a better RB than Toljan, but once it got so late in the window, there weren't many options, so they did the Toljan+Passlack loan deal. I thought that was a very big problem going into the transfer window, Piszczek had a bad season, and he capped it off by being the absolute worst player in the QF's against Monaco. I don't know why that position wasn't priority #1 or 2.




Yes, they should have bought a quality young RB like they did Guerreiro a few years ago. Weiser would have fit perfectly. Instead they went for stopgap after stopgap. Castro could have done well there but he threw a fit when Tuchel tried him there.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nalens Oga said:


> Btw no one has mentioned him in the last several posts so I can't be the only one forgetting him but they still have Schurrle lol.
> 
> They really need to sell him and Subotic considering the number of players that have surpassed them in those positions and Reus isn't even healthy yet.




SchÃ¼rrle is unnecessary at this point, but I don't think they'll have an easy time selling him or Rode.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Fire sale in January for Schurrle, Rode and Subotic. If we get one off the wage bill in January, thats a good window. All three would be excellent, but I doubt it happens.


----------



## Nalens Oga

^^^ Isn't Passlack their future RB? Though they made the loan to Hoffenheim 2 years and have less flexibility but I doubt they spend big money on there for now.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> ^^^ Isn't Passlack their future RB? Though they made the loan to Hoffenheim 2 years and have less flexibility but I doubt they spend big money on there for now.




Maybe.......but you gotta have a RB for now, can't leave a spot open for two years in hopes that Passlack will return ready to start.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Looking at the table so far, I think Hoffenheim is looking like a UCL team again, maybe they'll qualify automatically this year in spot 3. 

Spot 4, along with the Europa League spots will probably come down to Gladbach, Schalke and Leipzig, in some order.


----------



## Albatros

Hoffenheim doesn't have the quality, I think their current position is flattering them a great deal. In the end they'll have mid-table, maybe EL finish.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Looking at the table so far, I think Hoffenheim is looking like a UCL team again, maybe they'll qualify automatically this year in spot 3.
> 
> Spot 4, along with the Europa League spots will probably come down to Gladbach, Schalke and Leipzig, in some order.




It's matchday 5. And as Albatros said I also find them overrated so far. They beat Mainz, not Bayern. They were behind by two and scored the winner in extra-time.


----------



## YNWA14

Bon Esprit said:


> It's matchday 5. And as Albatros said I also find them overrated so far. They beat Mainz, *not Bayern*. They were behind by two and scored the winner in extra-time.




Well this is awkward.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Curtinho said:


> Well this is awkward.




How is it awkward? They beat a low table team by luck on their pitch and not the best german team on their pitch. I don't know what's so hard to understand.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> How is it awkward? They beat a low table team by luck on their pitch and not the best german team on their pitch. I don't know what's so hard to understand.




Maybe that they already beat Bayern a week ago???

Hard to say which teams other than Bayern and Dortmund will finish top 4 at this point.


----------



## Nalens Oga

RB should not be battling for the 4th spot, if they are then the coach needs to be fired, the worst they should do with that squad is 3rd. Their squad is a clear step above Gladbach, Schalke, and Hoffenheim in terms of both depth and the top talent.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> Maybe that they already beat Bayern a week ago???
> 
> Hard to say which teams other than Bayern and Dortmund will finish top 4 at this point.




They beat Bayern on matchday 3 at home. Bayern were not starting Robben, Ribery, Alaba, Vidal. But okay, that doesn't count.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> They beat Bayern on matchday 3 at home. Bayern were not starting Robben, Ribery, Alaba, Vidal. But okay, that doesn't count.




Ok... You don't have to beat Bayern at the Allianz to finish top 4. There haven't even been 3 teams to beat Bayern 4 of the past 5 years. Bayern's team was still very strong that match, and it's impressive to beat them away or at home.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> RB should not be battling for the 4th spot, if they are then the coach needs to be fired, the worst they should do with that squad is 3rd. Their squad is a clear step above Gladbach, Schalke, and Hoffenheim in terms of both depth and the top talent.




They don't have as much depth as you think. 

Look how poorly they've done recently where they're had to play midweek matches. 

Its one thing to not play any European competitions, and maybe have a few midweek matches per week during the full season, its another to be playing two a week nearly every week. Most clubs don't have the requisite squad depth for both.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> Hoffenheim doesn't have the quality, I think their current position is flattering them a great deal. In the end they'll have mid-table, maybe EL finish.




They have wonderful talent in the midfield with Demirbay, Amiri, Grillitsch & Geiger. They're strong at wingback with Kaderabek, Zuber, Passlack, Ochs & Gnabry when he's not playing forward. With Kramaric, Uth, Gnabry and the good ol plan B, Wagner, they have goals and creativity up front...though they have room for a stud there to upgrade them. And in defense I really like Vogt & Hubner. They are very smart on the ball and cover well. Bikcacic & Neustadter are the weakness for them...but they have some interesting young talents who are approaching senior football who could take over that third spot by season's end.

They don't have glaring weaknesses and they have some very nice talent for Nagelsmann's style...and with that young midfield talent feeding Kramaric & co., they have as much quality in their best XI as anyone but Bayern / Dortmund (maybe Leipzig). Plus they have the best coach in the league guiding that talent.



Nalens Oga said:


> RB should not be battling for the 4th spot, if they are then the coach needs to be fired, the worst they should do with that squad is 3rd. Their squad is a clear step above Gladbach, Schalke, and Hoffenheim in terms of both depth and the top talent.




Up front, but Hoffenheim & Gladbach have more midfield talent (though Benes' injury really hurts that advantage), and BMG are stronger in the backline. RB does have an advantage in attack; but if Raffael can turn back the clock once he finds his rhythm, then that advantage evaporates as well.



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> They don't have as much depth as you think.
> 
> *Look how poorly they've done recently where they're had to play midweek matches.
> *
> Its one thing to not play any European competitions, and maybe have a few midweek matches per week during the full season, its another to be playing two a week nearly every week. Most clubs don't have the requisite squad depth for both.




A lot of that has come from playing mediocre midfielders like Demme & Kaiser while they are still integrating Kampl & Laimer. Once those two join Keita in dominating the midfield rotation, they'll handle english weeks much more smoothly.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> Ok... You don't have to beat Bayern at the Allianz to finish top 4. There haven't even been 3 teams to beat Bayern 4 of the past 5 years. Bayern's team was still very strong that match, and it's impressive to beat them away or at home.




No, you don't have to. My point is: Calling my original comment "awkward" is nonsense, because they indeed won vs. Bayern on matchday 3,but I pointed out that Bayern didn't start their best lineup and their win vs. Mainz was luck.

If anyone can name the top 4 or bottom 3 after 5 games played should do betting. Bayern and Dortmund have the best teams on paper, but many strange things use to happen over the season.


----------



## YNWA14

Well it was the way you presented the comment. Like beating Mainz is no big deal, it's not like they're Bayern...when they beat Bayern not that long ago either, regardless of how you feel about the line-up.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Thiago injured again but Robben probably healthy. I'm curious if Ancelotti takes James out again.

Also, Lucas Alario finalized his signing with Leverkusen from River Plate and should be eligible on Sunday against Hamburg. So goodbye Kevin Volland but knowing Bayer's coach, he'll probably bench Brandt instead. http://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/B...sign-lucas-alario-from-river-plate-457975.jsp


----------



## Bon Esprit

Curtinho said:


> Well it was the way you presented the comment. Like beating Mainz is no big deal, it's not like they're Bayern...when they beat Bayern not that long ago either, regardless of how you feel about the line-up.




Good, okay, my bad.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Tisserand's healthy again I guess for Wolfsburg and that new striker Origi is in.

But no rest for any of Kimmich/Boateng/Hummels despite a game against PSG in mid-week. He's also benched James again despite him being basically Bayern's best attacker lately and refuses to let the guy start two games in a row.


----------



## YNWA14

Vidal is dumb.

Wolfsburg don't look too bad tbh


----------



## Nalens Oga

Yeah Tisserand and Udukhai don't look like very good CBs, Bayern had nothing going on much but those two seem out of their depth, bad penalty to give up.

Also not sure why Bayern tries to keep forcing it in the middle with so many ****** long balls into the box.


----------



## YNWA14

Yeah, although tbh Lewandowski looked like he was going down on his own without their help. He was just kind of standing there, though he should have backed off a bit more in that situation.


----------



## Savant

Lewandowski might be the best penalty taker in the world


----------



## les Habs

I'd have to see it again, but it looked like a soft penalty call. Then a jammy deflection.


----------



## cgf

Hopefully being rushed onto the pitch doesn't stunt Udoukhai's growth. Hertha's Torunariga is the star CB talent of that birth year, but this kid was a serious talent at 1860 in his own right


----------



## Nalens Oga

Savant said:


> Lewandowski might be the best penalty taker in the world




That stutter/hop should be outlawed imo.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> Lewandowski might be the best penalty taker in the world




I remember him missing a couple. There are a lot of obscure but great penalty takers who don't otherwise score many goals. Salihovic for example. Maybe Lewandowski is the best among otherwise world class players.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Sven Ulreich looking shaky again https://imgtc.com/w/b74VmEm


----------



## cgf

Nalens Oga said:


> Sven Ulreich looking shaky again https://imgtc.com/w/b74VmEm




Just raising the drama before FrÃ¼chtl takes the job for good and Bayern are forced to sell Neuer.


----------



## Savant

Ulreich does not impress me at all.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Yeah another game where this Bayern defence hasn't been organized at all once they're actually tested, Rafinha and Boateng ball-watching.

80+ minutes played with another game in mid-week and Ancelotti's only bothered to make one sub. I wouldn't bet against PSG to put at least a few past them.


----------



## TheLeastOfTheBunch

Wee bit late for those subs


----------



## Savant

Would still take Ancelotti over Klopp


----------



## Deficient Mode

I went out during the second half and Wolfsburg somehow came back???

Wow. Bayern dropped points again. 



Savant said:


> Would still take Ancelotti over Klopp




At Liverpool? Big no from me.


----------



## Theokritos

Nalens Oga said:


> Sven Ulreich looking shaky again https://imgtc.com/w/b74VmEm




Shaky is an euphemism. What the hell was that? How do you give up a goal like that in professional soccer?


----------



## Nalens Oga

Savant said:


> Would still take Ancelotti over Klopp




No way, Ancelotti's team is far too casual, relies on talent and skill alone to win imo with little inventiveness. Klopp would have these guys doing a lot more not just from an entertainment point of view.


----------



## YNWA14

How has Didavi been playing with Wolfsburg? Is he not a starter? Thought he'd be pretty good for them.

I'm happy with Klopp. I think Rodgers would do better with this Bayern team tbh. They should take him next.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bayern drew? Didn't think Wolfsburg would be able to come back from down two, but thats very good news. We gotta take advantage of it and beat Gladbach tomorrow, we'll need as big of a lead coming into the winter break as we can get. Could stretch the lead to three tomorrow. We are in good form right now, they aren't, gotta take advantage of it because you gotta think they'll figure it out eventually sometime this season.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Bayern drew? Didn't think Wolfsburg would be able to come back from down two, but thats very good news. We gotta take advantage of it and beat Gladbach tomorrow, we'll need as big of a lead coming into the winter break as we can get. Could stretch the lead to three tomorrow. We are in good form right now, they aren't, gotta take advantage of it because you gotta think they'll figure it out eventually sometime this season.




Yeah. Dortmund have been a bit lucky to start the season, and Bayern have been unlucky with Neuer's injury. Though it's true that Bayern have had a lot more defensive issues this year than we're used to from them. Luck with injuries and VAR will have to continue to be on Dortmund's side if they have any chance at the league.


----------



## les Habs

Excellent ball by Uduokhai of Wolfsburg's second. Goal was nice all around.

Two of HBBoards' "best in the World" not looking so hot.

I'd take Klopp over Ancelotti.


----------



## Live in the Now

Ancelotti with no experience doing a rebuilding job with huge budget constraints, then he's 58 years old, then just for the pleasure of it he has a flirtation with coaching in China for mega money.

I don't think so. Nagelsmann will replace him soon and Bayern will be better off I think. 

I don't think this is a clear Bayern league win this year either.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Also Ribery was bad that game. And the one I saw the time before, not really doing anything. The whole left-side is a write-off with the injuries right now.

And he waited till giving up the 2nd goal instead of the first to make the subs


----------



## Deficient Mode

Hummels appeared to criticize Ancelotti. Said the team wanted to press but weren't set up for it tactically. Backtracked a little when the interviewer followed up on it though. 

Second Wolfsburg goal was a nice pass but it really showed the poor defensive coordination of Bayern yet again. Hummels and Rudy were defending zonally but Boateng was defending man-to-man to block the pass to the far side, and when Didavi outran Rudy (who wasn't paying attention to him), the whole area was wide open. What was Boateng thinking? And does Ancelotti not work on that stuff with them?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Boateng did have 23 accurate long balls in that match. Out of only 32 attempted. 


Live in the Now said:


> I don't think this is a clear Bayern league win this year either.




We'll see. Dortmund haven't played anyone good yet, and I'm still a bet skeptical of their possession play in the final third. Dahoud's craft around the box and Yarmolenko's pressing resistance are big bonuses, though. The other long shots like Leipzig aren't exactly starting the season off well, either. I suppose Hoffenheim could take a run at it, but they have some issues to fix as well, and on paper are huge underdogs even compared to Dortmund.


----------



## Live in the Now

Deficient Mode said:


> We'll see. Dortmund haven't played anyone good yet, and I'm still a bet skeptical of their possession play in the final third. Dahoud's craft around the box and Yarmolenko's pressing resistance are big bonuses, though.




The game tomorrow should be good for finding that out, but I am also impressed that they kept five clean sheets regardless of the opposition. Gotze should get better as the season goes on as well, and obviously so will Pulisic and Dahoud.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Live in the Now said:


> The game tomorrow should be good for finding that out, but I am also impressed that they kept five clean sheets regardless of the opposition. Gotze should get better as the season goes on as well, and obviously so will Pulisic and Dahoud.




The defense has been really shaky. First good opponent they played, Spurs, they got dismantled easily. 

I think it'll get better as Bartra, Schmelzer, Guerreiro, Toljan return along with having Weigl in there soon instead of Sahin, but I think that'll determine if there's a title race or not. Dortmund can keep up with Bayern in terms of the midfield and attack, but Bayern has a much better defense on paper. Bayern's defense is playing down to its opposition and Dortmund's is getting lucky and not really being tested so far.


----------



## Cassano

Nalens Oga said:


> Also Ribery was bad that game. And the one I saw the time before, not really doing anything. *The whole left-side is a write-off with the injuries right now.*
> 
> And he waited till giving up the 2nd goal instead of the first to make the subs




Good thing the board decided Sanchez's salary demands were too excessive.


----------



## Nalens Oga

I don't think they need Sanchez at all tbh. Coman/Bernat/Alaba can all play on that left side in addition to Ribery.

There isn't really a personnel issue to me. Probably should have a proper back-up striker and not a false one like Muller/James because Lewandowski getting injured would be a disaster and they need to find a better backup fullback than Rafinha but the personnel are good enough to win.


----------



## cgf

BVB and the other CL pretenders need to get as many points as they can before Raffael makes his customary late start to the season step into superstardom and BMG go on one of their patented mad runs of outplaying errybody  

With Cuisance making a strong impression after coming on for Kramer in the last match; Hecking might even stumble into playing the trio of Zakaria, Kramer & Cuisance/Benes (when he returns) behind Raffael & Stindl. And that's a midfield that can outshine any other midfield in the BuLi, on their day...especially with the support that those two vets provide from the front



Curtinho said:


> How has Didavi been playing with Wolfsburg? Is he not a starter? Thought he'd be pretty good for them.
> 
> I'm happy with Klopp. *I think Rodgers would do better with this Bayern team tbh. They should take him next.*




God no. They need to throw a small fortune at Nagelsmann and convince him that management won't be too intrusive.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> The defense has been really shaky. First good opponent they played, Spurs, they got dismantled easily.
> 
> I think it'll get better as Bartra, Schmelzer, Guerreiro, Toljan return along with having Weigl in there soon instead of Sahin, but I think that'll determine if there's a title race or not. Dortmund can keep up with Bayern in terms of the midfield and attack, but Bayern has a much better defense on paper. Bayern's defense is playing down to its opposition and Dortmund's is getting lucky and not really being tested so far.




I think you're too pessimistic. They were a bit shaky vs Hamburg and very shaky vs Spurs, but hopefully the latter was mostly due to Toprak and Sokratis being unfamiliar with each other and Bosz being unfamiliar with both of their lack of pace. Overall the clean sheets have mostly been in order. They're overperforming a bit, but not a ton. Bartra will be available again tomorrow, which is great news. 



cgf said:


> BVB and the other CL pretenders need to get as many points as they can before Raffael makes his customary late start to the season step into superstardom and BMG go on one of their patented mad runs of outplaying errybody




You're just lucky that Barca thought Raffael was too good to replace Neymar and are waiting to sign him to replace Messi. 



cgf said:


> God no. They need to throw a small fortune at Nagelsmann and convince him that management won't be too intrusive.




I don't think he will take much convincing. I get the sense from his interviews that he badly wants the Bayern job.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl




----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I'd rotate tomorrow against Gladbach. Risky, but we have the squad depth to do so right now in midfield and attack, and we really need to make a push against Real Madrid, given the Spurs result. Playing a Tuesday midweek game the week after a wednesday midweek game is really tough on the team, so I'd rest a bunch of players. You can start Buerki, but not the field players. That means Pisczek, Toprak, Pulisic, Yarmolenko and Auba shouldn't start tomorrow, given they'll likely start against Madrid, and you don't want them playing all those matches in such a short time span. The rest will have had some rest in between, so they can start tomorrow. It does seem like there's a good chance that Bartra and Toljan, along with Goetze will be fit for tomorrow's match, which is a big bonus.

I'd go Buerki in goal, Toljan RB, Sokratis and Bartra the CB's, Zagadou at LB, Sahin with Goetze and Dahoud ahead of him, but I'd try to get Weigl 45 minutes, so sub him for Sahin at 45. Kagawa and Philipp as the wingers, Isak as the striker. You could potentially even start Sancho. Yeah, I know, risky, but I'd take the chance, gotta have the team ready for Real, and I think we can find a way to get a win with the back ups against Gladbach, considering its at home. You also eventually gotta give a player like Isak a chance. He can't only be subbed on in a 5-0 game or start in a Cup match. You gotta give this kid some real minutes to see if he's good enough. If we believe in the squad we have, our back ups should be good enough to win at home against Gladbach. If not, we'll have a squad tired for the Madrid game, and we might put ourselves in big trouble with 0 points after 2 matches.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> You're just lucky that Barca thought Raffael was too good to replace Neymar and are waiting to sign him to replace Messi.
> 
> I don't think he will take much convincing. I get the sense from his interviews that he badly wants the Bayern job.




I think you mean 'Raffa was too cool to sell himself to Barca like that wh*** Dembele'

And Nagelsmann certainly wants the job, but I could see things getting unpleasant between Ancelotti and the board which could make the job less attractive.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Woof no goal yet but dominant start by RB against Frankfurt. Tonnes of balls into the box (the good kind not the Bayern kind form yesterday).


----------



## Nalens Oga

Willems on Eintracht is the toughest LB/LM to play against in the Bundesliga right now. Guy blocks so much, dunno why they didn't play him in mid-week.

Also, McKennie starting instead of Goretzka and no Burgstaller either? Goretzka is sick and on the bench but not sure why Di Santo instead of Burgstaller. Hoffenheim scored too.

edit: Oczipka too ffs


----------



## Nalens Oga

Ugh Ibisevic so close, feels like his finishing touch is gone this year.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Klostermann loses his man, Frankfurt get a goal back. Not impressed with RB's right side at all, Sabitzer hasn't done much either today.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Weigl-Dahoud-GÃ¶tze midfield. It's happening.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Weigl-Dahoud-GÃƒÂ¶tze midfield. It's happening.




Bosz clearly recognizes that BMG is the biggest test his midfield will face all year...


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Bosz clearly recognizes that BMG is the biggest test his midfield will face all year...




They need to peak today. They can rest players against an opponent with a weaker midfield like Real Madrid.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Deficient Mode said:


> They need to peak today. They can rest players against an opponent with a weaker midfield like Real Madrid.




Yarmolenko will fill Lewa's shoes and score four I'm sure.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> They need to peak today. They can rest players against an opponent with a weaker midfield like Real Madrid.




Exactly, you can save the backups for Modric & Kroos; but when you're facing Zakaria and Kramer you have to rely on your best.

EDIT:
So BVB still can't defend against counters under Bosz, can they?


----------



## cgf

Jesus that pass from Mo to Gotze all of the way through the box <3

How he's not already a NT starter is baffling.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Weigl might need some time to get back up to speed.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Weigl might need some time to get back up to speed.




I'm also not a fan of Bosz pushing him up...if the commentator was right about that and Weigl really is being asked to play 10-15 yards further forward.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Gotze is basically German Wayne Rooney now.

Also the two Gladbach strikers need to pressure a bit higher up, game is too compact.


----------



## cgf

Sippel may have a great resume when called upon by BMG...but god damn does he still worry me. If Sommer is out for too much longer I hope that Nicolas can takeover the job.

...with Fruchtl having a chance to takeover for Ulreich at some point, if Ulreich remains a hot mess; this could be a huge year for young german Keepers.

EDIT: that's one way to shut me up Sippel


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> EDIT:
> So BVB still can't defend against counters under Bosz, can they?




Way better than they did against Tottenham, still. I think they're good at preventing counters as long as the turnovers don't happen in the back line. Then the lack of pace is a real problem.



cgf said:


> I'm also not a fan of Bosz pushing him up...if the commentator was right about that and Weigl really is being asked to play 10-15 yards further forward.




That comment may have just been in regards to BVB's general territorial dominance??? It seems like his position relative to the other BVB players isn't noticeably different.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

good keeping for gladbach


----------



## Deficient Mode

Excellent goal. Philipp can strike the ball. First real chance Weigl was open to pass the ball forward through the Gladbach lines.


----------



## cgf

*sigh* it had been coming, but what a nice finish by Philipp...who's another player who I had really hoped would be at the cooler Borussia this season instead. Some BVB fans may have ******ed about him before he started scoring, but the kid is classy & crafty.

BMG need to take more control of this game; yes BVB is vulnerable on the counter, but unless the team can snag a goal or two in this half on the break, they need to come out in the second half and take control of the ball.



Nalens Oga said:


> Gotze is basically German Wayne Rooney now.
> 
> Also the two Gladbach strikers need to pressure a bit higher up, game is too compact.




With how deep Hecking has the back two lines defending, there is too big of a gap when Stindl & Raffa are aggressive with their pressing.



MrFunnyWobbl said:


> So Phillipp is gunna be a big time scorer?




Kid's the next Lars Stindl, so pretty much.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

So Phillipp is gunna be a big time scorer?


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> *Way better than they did against Tottenham, still.* I think they're good at preventing counters as long as the turnovers don't happen in the back line. Then the lack of pace is a real problem.
> 
> That comment may have just been in regards to BVB's general territorial dominance??? It seems like his position relative to the other BVB players isn't noticeably different.




 that's faint praise. 

The commentator said that Bosz was audibly instructing Weigl (specifically) to play 10-15 yards further forward and to not drop back towards the CBs as far as he's accustomed to doing.


----------



## Deficient Mode

PHILIPP AGAIN!!! Dahoud is so perfect around the penalty area.



cgf said:


> that's faint praise.
> 
> The commentator said that Bosz was audibly instructing Weigl (specifically) to play 10-15 yards further forward and to not drop back towards the CBs as far as he's accustomed to doing.




Commentators are full of ****. Under Tuchel, Weigl rarely dropped back between the CBs. Not regularly at all.


----------



## cgf

*sigh* Ginter...at least it's BVB's coolest players doing well (Dahoud, Philipp & Weigl)

...some day Hecking will except that he needs to play a 4-3-1-2/4-3-2-1 or a 3-1-4-2 that flows with the ball regardless of the opponent; instead of trying to turn them into a defend deep & counter squad.

EDIT:
Lars :-( You should have done better with that.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> *sigh* Ginter...at least it's BVB's coolest players doing well (Dahoud, Philipp & Weigl)
> 
> Some day Hecking will except that he needs to play a 4-3-1-2/4-3-2-1 or a 3-1-4-2.




Ginter still thinks he's playing for Dortmund. 

That pass Weigl just threaded through two Gladbach defenders for Auba was incredible. Offside though.


----------



## Nalens Oga

cgf said:


> With how deep Hecking has the back two lines defending, there is too big of a gap when Stindl & Raffa are aggressive with their pressing.




They're too good to be playing this deep imo, they did the same thing against Leipzig and got fortunate that Leipzig are bad at defending counters plus the Keita red. And if you are gonna try sit this much back then play 1 striker insead of two.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Nice ball frm Sokratis


----------



## Nalens Oga

Hmmm Phillip doesn't really do anything from the wing but pretty effective when he's like a second striker more centrally.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nalens Oga said:


> Hmmm Phillip doesn't really do anything from the wing but pretty effective when he's like a second striker more centrally.




tbh Reus doesn't do much from the wing either. His best dribbles and creative scenes come in more central areas. It has worked very well for Dortmund in recent years to build up with one wider winger and to have an inverted winger cut in on the other side when the ball gets into a dangerous position. SchÃ¼rrle, Reus, and Philipp are all that kind of player.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Weigl is so good. We missed his presence in the team. 

I agree about the Philipp comment, but he's effective. Can't complain with a player who puts the ball in the net. 

Gladbach has not come to play. Completely sitting in, I expected more of them.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Is Philipp playing as well as the statline suggests?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

And I think Bosz realizes this is the best midfield.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Is Philipp playing as well as the statline suggests?




He has 2 goals and an assist, so he's doing a great job, but he's not Messi'ing through the defense. He's taking his opportunities, he's not going to lead a match in touches.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Ginter 

Time to sub out players who need rest for Madrid.



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> He has 2 goals and an assist, so he's doing a great job, but he's not Messi'ing through the defense. He's taking his opportunities, he's not going to lead a match in touches.




Yep. They're not solo goals at all but the first was a really difficult finish that he did flawlessly; second was a nice shot; the assist was a clever run that he passed to Aubameyang. Not dominant other than those scenes, but that's more than enough.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

he punched pulisic!


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pulisic better than Messi confirmed


----------



## Nalens Oga

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> And I think Bosz realizes this is the best midfield.




I think if you can upgrade Gotze to Yarmolenko then that's better but you'd probably have to shift around Phillip and Pulisic's positioning.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pierre Emhattrick Aubameyang 



Nalens Oga said:


> I think if you can upgrade Gotze to Yarmolenko then that's better but you'd probably have to shift around Phillip and Pulisic's positioning.




Wat.....


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Dahoud is such a bonus for this squad. So much better than Castro.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> I think if you can upgrade Gotze to Yarmolenko then that's better but you'd probably have to shift around Phillip and Pulisic's positioning.




No, I don't think so. Still think Philipp sits. Its a really deep midfield and attack though. I think its better than Bayern's, so as long as we can keep up defensively, there should be a chance to challenge Bayern.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Not the clean sheet streak!


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

First goal of the season against. It was coming. The defense is still shaky.


----------



## ecemleafs

Tolijan looks very good. I really like Dortmunds squad this year. When is Guerrero coming back?


----------



## Albatros

I wouldn't describe a defense allowing one goal in 6 matches "shaky". Maybe less than impenetrable, but shaky is a bit harsh.


----------



## Deficient Mode

The Weigl goal to top it all!!!! He only scores beautiful goals.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Weigl masterclass


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

WeiGOAT


----------



## Deficient Mode

I was just wondering if we were going to see Bartra today. I guess he won't be fit to start vs. Madrid.  They will need to play differently midweek. This slow and high back line will be eaten up by Madrid's athletic forwards, even if they generate a lot of chances the other way too.

I half expect Sahin and Castro back despite how good Weigl and Dahoud were today.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Told y'all we should've rotated the squad even than this today. 

Gladbach didn't even come to play.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Told y'all we should've rotated the squad even than this today.
> 
> Gladbach didn't even come to play.




IDK. It's unclear right now which of the midfielders and forwards are indispensable or Bosz's first choice right now besides Aubameyang, and there are practically no fully fit options to rotate in the back line.


----------



## S E P H

Wow, how shocking is that lads? BVB changes their manager to one with decent skillz and they destroy Monchangladbach and are top of the table. Gotta give a lot of credit to Bosz, he's making them relevant again. I wonder if he used Trump's marketing of "Lets make BVB great again" to get his players pumped. 

Lol at Ancelotti and the constant overrating he gets here. It's beyond insanity. But at least I can go back to the Top Manager #1 thread and keep on laughing.


----------



## cgf

Looks like a good thing I couldn't watch the second half lol

BMG has too much elegance to play the way Hecking is lining them up against the top teams. Defending deeply is one thing, but defending deeply and just launching lightening counters sedes far too many opportunities to good teams. They need to control the midfield more when they have the ball. Even with Benes injured they have the personnel to flow through any midfield, but it would require Hecking getting wild with his formations and playing Zakaria behind Cuisance & Kramer. Be it between a back 4 & an attacking trident, or in front of a back three with Raffael/Hazard - Stindl/Hazard in front of them.


----------



## Deficient Mode

S E P H said:


> Wow, how shocking is that lads? BVB changes their manager to one with decent skillz and they destroy Monchangladbach and are top of the table. Gotta give a lot of credit to Bosz, he's making them relevant again. I wonder if he used Trump's marketing of "Lets make BVB great again" to get his players pumped.




Oh boy


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Deficient Mode said:


> Oh boy




I too think BVB will turn down a White House invite when they win the CL.


----------



## Albatros

Last time they celebrated on the Marienplatz, not sure which is worse.


----------



## S E P H

Albatros said:


> Last time they celebrated on the Marienplatz, not sure which is worse.




Too bad they're too much of a feeder team to not win more. Their celebration especially under Klopp was fantastic.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

https://streamable.com/u66lm


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> https://streamable.com/u66lm




That guy certainly has lower potential. 

Not his game today, but that was some crazy dribbling.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Until that goal was scored tbh, Pulisic was doing more than Phillip. I thought Phillip and Toljan kept sending in bad balls or ones that were blocked (in fairness Elvedi is a good RB) while I appreciated Pulisic's ability to constantly take players on one-on-one.

Also, he was more effective in the past couple games I think where he was playing more on the left iirc.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nalens Oga said:


> Until that goal was scored tbh, Pulisic was doing more than Phillip. I thought Phillip and Toljan kept sending in bad balls or ones that were blocked (in fairness Elvedi is a good RB) while I appreciated Pulisic's ability to constantly take players on one-on-one.
> 
> Also, he was more effective in the past couple games I think where he was playing more on the left iirc.




uh, Philipp's job isn't to take people on one on one though, and it isn't such an indispensable or otherwise rare skill for Dortmund that they need both wide attackers to do it.

Pulisic almost always plays on the right unless Yarmolenko is also playing. I don't think he was particularly good vs Hamburg, and the goal he scored came after Yarmolenko was subbed off and he had moved to the right side. At the moment I'd prefer Yarmolenko to Pulisic and I'd prefer Philipp-Yarmolenko to Pulisic-Yarmolenko vs. Madrid. Pulisic can come on as a sub; he is well-suited for that.


----------



## Bon Esprit

And now something that hasn't anything to do with Dortmund:

Hannover vs. Cologne.

Second best defence vs. worst offence. Might be a high scoring game this afternoon . I'm hoping for a good result for Hannover, of course.

Leverkusen vs. Hamburg

Actually 15th vs. 14th. Both need the points. I'd think Leverkusen somehow wins this.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Hamburg's composure on the ball is terrible, actually pretty bad game all around despite the 2 Bayer goals.

And Koln have only scored once in 6 games and conceded the most as well despite the clean sheet today, really pathetic. At least Bremen have the excuse of an injured striker and Freiburg a weak squad.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Julian Brandt skill/pass leads to that goal by Volland, honestly I dunno why him and Bellarabi aren't always starters for Leverkusen they're clearly the two most dangerous players.


----------



## Just Win

Alario



Nalens Oga said:


> Julian Brandt skill/pass leads to that goal by Volland, honestly I dunno why him and Bellarabi aren't always starters for Leverkusen they're clearly the two most dangerous players.




They both are very inconsistent, waste a lot of possessions and Brandt is also poor defensively. Both fast skilled players that do well when they have a lot of room and both tend to struggle against teams that park the bus.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> uh, Philipp's job isn't to take people on one on one though, and it isn't such an indispensable or otherwise rare skill for Dortmund that they need both wide attackers to do it.
> 
> Pulisic almost always plays on the right unless Yarmolenko is also playing. I don't think he was particularly good vs Hamburg, and the goal he scored came after Yarmolenko was subbed off and he had moved to the right side. At the moment I'd prefer Yarmolenko to Pulisic and I'd prefer Philipp-Yarmolenko to Pulisic-Yarmolenko vs. Madrid. Pulisic can come on as a sub; he is well-suited for that.




I think its good that we have three good options right now, but I don't think you fool around in such an important match against Real Madrid, especially considering how well Pulisic has done in being the team's main creative force this season. Yarmolenko and Pulisic don't really play all that similar though, I think Philipp still comes off the bench. I like what he brings to the team, but its a smaller offensive contribution than Pulisic and Yarmolenko, other than scoring goals.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Congrats to Bayer and Heiko Herrlich. This one was important to calm Wild Rudi VÃ¶ller down.

As for HSV: Nothing new on the northern front. Same as it ever was.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Just Win said:


> Alario
> 
> 
> 
> They both are very inconsistent, waste a lot of possessions and Brandt is also poor defensively. Both fast skilled players that do well when they have a lot of room and both tend to struggle against teams that park the bus.




Brandt is clever enough to do well vs parked buses. Probably more Leverkusen's problem as a whole.



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I think its good that we have three good options right now, but I don't think you fool around in such an important match against Real Madrid, especially considering how well *Pulisic has done in being the team's main creative force this season*. Yarmolenko and Pulisic don't really play all that similar though, I think Philipp still comes off the bench. I like what he brings to the team, but its a smaller offensive contribution than Pulisic and Yarmolenko, other than scoring goals.




What

Pulisic hasn't played well with Yarmolenko in the small sample we have so far. If anything is "fooling around in such an important match", it's trying them out together again.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> What
> 
> Pulisic hasn't played well with Yarmolenko in the small sample we have so far. If anything is "fooling around in such an important match", it's trying them out together again.




If Pulisic isn't on the field, this team lacks players to create scoring chances, they will have to come from centrally. Thats especially important against Madrid. I think Philipp's skill-set is less valuable against Real Madrid as there are fewer chances and less space. Yarmo has surprisingly contributed some assists early on, but his game is more of a power goal scoring winger with a great shot. I don't really see him as a great playmaker. Philipp is more of a poaching winger, so that will put greater emphasis on Goetze and Dahoud, might even be Castro instead of Dahoud, for all we know to create chances. I don't know, I personally just don't see that as a wise strategy. I think we'll struggle to create attacking chances in that type of game. I'm glad Philipp was clinical against Gladbach, but I don't think what happens in that match should decide Wednesday's lineup. I don't see Philipp as a starter for this team in the big matches.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> If Pulisic isn't on the field, this team lacks players to create scoring chances, they will have to come from centrally. Thats especially important against Madrid. I think Philipp's skill-set is less valuable against Real Madrid as there are fewer chances and less space. Yarmo has surprisingly contributed some assists early on, but his game is more of a power goal scoring winger with a great shot. I don't really see him as a great playmaker. Philipp is more of a poaching winger, so that will put greater emphasis on Goetze and Dahoud, might even be Castro instead of Dahoud, for all we know to create chances. I don't know, I personally just don't see that as a wise strategy. I think we'll struggle to create attacking chances in that type of game. I'm glad Philipp was clinical against Gladbach, but I don't think what happens in that match should decide Wednesday's lineup. I don't see Philipp as a starter for this team in the big matches.




Creating chances centrally? Imagine that.

Pulisic isn't as creative as you think. Good dribbler and good at starting combinations, but often too linear and not overly clever. Other players like Dahoud are more creative. Yarmolenko became more of a playmaker late in his career and is well-rounded at this point. Dembele too came to Dortmund as more of a goal scorer, and ended up as more of an assist man. 

I don't think they'll struggle to create chances or lack space against Madrid. They didn't last year. The problem is they'll probably give up more goals on the other end.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Was just checkign some stats and Hertha Berlin have had the least number of total shots (44) but the highest shot accuracy % (meaning on net) at 56%. They also rank last in chances created, lowest number of key passes, and tied for 11th in possession.

Freiburg are basically the worse team in terms of underlying numbers aside from that. Koln are around mid-table in terms of posession, chances created, and shots but have the worse goal conversion obviously.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Nagelsmann sitting nervously next to his phone right now.

I also love how a pretty recently even the German sports media hyped up German football to be at the top of the world and the German league to be the top league and all that. Now that it seems like they're all losing in Europe, the Welt runs an article saying "What's wrong with German football?". Hacks.


----------



## Nalens Oga

^ It doesn't help that Koln are absolutely awful. The other issue is that whole 50+1 rule Germans are so proud of. Cheaper tickets yes but the league ends up being weaker in the long-run. Tbh I don't give a shit about it it will fix itself over time.

I'm personally disappointed in Tuchel being the likely replacement. If he is then hopefully it's just for this season. He's an upgrade on Ancelotti but I don't have a high opinion of him beyond that. Nagelsmann wouldn't move till next summer I'd assume.


----------



## Vipers31

Nalens Oga said:


> The other issue is that whole 50+1 rule Germans are so proud of. Cheaper tickets yes but the league ends up being weaker in the long-run. Tbh I don't give a shit about it it will fix itself over time.



And Germans don't give a shit about short-term international success when it means their club gets taken over by some billionair, or by some corporation, which may not even help make the club more successful, but looks to make money off it, downgrading them from actual club owners to customers. Every reason to be proud of sticking to that.


----------



## LemmyUlanov55

Kinda disappointed how Ancelotti & FCB worked out. Before last season, I thought he'd be a good fit and will get along with star players. Little bit more than a year later and he's gone after getting whacked in the CL. Guess Tuchel and Hoeness wouldn't get along very well, so my bet is on Nagelsmann as new coach next season. Wouldn't mind Willy Sagnol taking over aswell if he's able to get things together, good chance for him after his departure in Bordeaux.


----------



## Vipers31

LemmyUlanov55 said:


> Kinda disappointed how Ancelotti & FCB worked out. Before last season, I thought he'd be a good fit and will get along with star players. Little bit more than a year later and he's gone after getting whacked in the CL. Guess Tuchel and Hoeness wouldn't get along very well, so my bet is on Nagelsmann as new coach next season. Wouldn't mind Willy Sagnol taking over aswell if he's able to get things together, good chance for him after his departure in Bordeaux.




I think Uli already confirmed Willy is only going to be head coach for the Berlin game and they'll present the successor during the international break. I think Uli will go for another round of golf with Dietmar Hopp, have a chat over a glass of Grauburgunder, and if they don't come to an understanding on Nagelsmann, we'll see Tuchel next.


----------



## Albatros

Jogi Löw would be fun.


----------



## LemmyUlanov55

Vipers31 said:


> I think Uli already confirmed Willy is only going to be head coach for the Berlin game and they'll present the successor during the international break. I think Uli will go for another round of golf with Dietmar Hopp, have a chat over a glass of Grauburgunder, and if they don't come to an understanding on Nagelsmann, we'll see Tuchel next.



Ah ok, didn't read anything about their plans for coaching position. Yeah, Uli having a glass of whine and making Bayern business is certainly possible, Nagelsmann could be a good fit on Bayerns bench. On the other hand, that's what I thought about the appointment of Ancelotti aswell.


----------



## Vipers31

LemmyUlanov55 said:


> Ah ok, didn't read anything about their plans for coaching position. Yeah, Uli having a glass of whine and making Bayern business is certainly possible, Nagelsmann could be a good fit on Bayerns bench. On the other hand, that's what I thought about the appointment of Ancelotti aswell.




Yeah, I was optimistic about him, as well. I loved Pep, and was sure we wouldn't get the same kind of dominant performances overall moving on, but everybody raved about Carlo's man-management skills, and how that could help guys after the demanding work with Pep. Interestingly, just about all the players were sad when Pep left, while Carlo completely lost the room a month into his second season (five guys talking to management, by my second-hand sources being Robben, Ribery, Hummels, Boateng and Coman, expressing concerns about how the level and intensity of the practises aren't up to par for a top club). Reports from yesterday's game is that he came into the locker room before the game with only a piece of paper with the starting team on it, pinned it to a wall, and left without saying anything. We'll see whether the rumor about the big offer from China comes to fruition, but that would seem like he basically dared people to get on with it and fire him.

But moving forward - the reason I'd be happy with either Tuchel or Nagelsmann is that they're dynamic, energetic scholars of the game and perfectionists. I'd have to believe Carlo had more to offer tactically than what he said publicly, but when your team looks so tactically inept, I can't stand hearing about how "tactics, strategy or player's positions" are "too difficult", and that "football is simpler than that". I can live with a personality that's a little hard to deal with sometimes - and ultimately, so can the players, as long as they can see he helps them to become better players.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Ancelotti was only a good fit for Bayern for as long as the squad was really good. I've said before that he gets a great team to perform great and a good team to perform good but he's not going to get a good team to perform great. He leaves it up to the players and his results depend on their level of talent.

The gap between Bayern and BVB as well as a few other Bundesliga clubs is smaller than in the last couple years so they obviously need a better coach to eke out results when talent alone isn't enough to win the game. But if they expect the manager to be beating the likes of PSG or Real or Man City though then they're in for a surprise, Hoeness can go on and on about how they won't spend like those other clubs but then forget about winning the CL because you're not in the same league as them anymore. Tuchel should probably be fine for one year in terms of winning the Bundesliga, doesn't seem like a long-term solution though.




>


----------



## Deficient Mode

Tuchel isn't a long-term solution? Uhh, I've read it all now.



Albatros said:


> Jogi Löw would be fun.




Klinsmann would be more fun


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Klinsmann would be more fun




Way too good, Bayern might struggle to qualify for Europe with Klinsmann.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Way too good, Bayern might struggle to qualify for Europe with Klinsmann.




A man can dream. I was hoping Ancelotti would stay the whole year. Tuchel at Bayern though... no thanks.


----------



## Bon Esprit

According to sport1 1. FC Köln will sign Claudio Pizzaro today. Welcome back, Pizza. I'm not sure if a 38yo player helps Cologne, but whatever. I always liked Pizza.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> A man can dream. I was hoping Ancelotti would stay the whole year. Tuchel at Bayern though... no thanks.




Rummenigge, Hoeneß AND Tuchel together will be fun to watch as a neutral.


----------



## Vipers31

Bon Esprit said:


> Rummenigge, Hoeneß AND Tuchel together will be fun to watch as a neutral.



These things are almost impossible to project; chemistry can happen between the oddest people. Carlo was the ultimate gentleman, and we see how that worked out. Meanwhile, Pep was said to be a handful to handle, and the front office adored him. (Maybe Uli's absence helped with that, tbf.)


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Italian managers and the Bundesliga have never really worked out together. I think there's a bit of a mentality gap. 

But that said, Ancelotti was not given a CL-winning squad to work with IMO. Maybe Bayern should reflect on their transfer approach as well if they get walloped by PSG. The reality is that some years back (maybe 2011 ish) Bayern decided to 'step up' their game and start spending like other super powers. 

But super power spending has of course escalated even more since then. There is only one CL trophy to play for and there's a few teams out there who don't care how much they need to spend to get it; then there's a few more teams who do care but have consciously decided to go along with it out of necessity. Bayern still seems to balk at that game. And of course, in spite of Bayern's considerable financial might, they do not have an oligarch or the sovereign wealth fund of a sheikhdom behind them and their TV revenues do not match those of the Premier League elite or RM/Barca.

Perhaps it's that realization which drives them toward 'system coaches' like Tuchel who promise to do more with less rather than 'country club coaches' like Ancelotti who will do something with the elite squad you hand him but hasn't shown the ability to develop a team.


----------



## Bon Esprit

It's not only the managers (Trappatoni for example). I don't remember any high end Italian player who fit in German mentality and stuff. Only Luca Toni had success. It seems way better the other way around with German players in Italy (Brehme, Effenberg, Loddar and others). Dutch and French players worked way better.


----------



## Albatros

Barzagli won the title in Wolfsburg playing full minutes all season.


----------



## LemmyUlanov55

Bon Esprit said:


> It's not only the managers (Trappatoni for example). I don't remember any high end Italian player who fit in German mentality and stuff. Only Luca Toni had success. It seems way better the other way around with German players in Italy (Brehme, Effenberg, Loddar and others). Dutch and French players worked way better.



Well, Andreas Barzagli won the Bundesliga with WOB, but he's the only successful italian player (beside Luca Toni) I was able to come up with right away. haha.

EDIT: Too slow..


----------



## Bon Esprit

You both pulled out a player who didn't fail like Immobile. That's great.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> You both pulled out a player who didn't fail like Immobile. That's great.




Immobile really isn't good. I don't understand how he continues to score goals for Torino. I'd say he's more a case of failed scouting than failing in Germany. Though it's true he felt homesick and estranged from his family in Germany.


----------



## Nalens Oga

^ Your signature isn't big enough.

I don't really think you can be judging Italian players failing in Germany or vice-versa, sample size is generally too small.

Sane and Augustinsson might both be injured so Hamburg might actually have another win or at least a chance at scoring against Werder. Signing Pizarro...Koln are pathetic, hopefully RB dominates them on Sunday (though Werner may also not be starting according to coach).


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Italian managers and the Bundesliga have never really worked out together. I think there's a bit of a mentality gap.
> 
> But that said, Ancelotti was not given a CL-winning squad to work with IMO. Maybe Bayern should reflect on their transfer approach as well if they get walloped by PSG. The reality is that some years back (maybe 2011 ish) Bayern decided to 'step up' their game and start spending like other super powers.
> 
> But super power spending has of course escalated even more since then. There is only one CL trophy to play for and there's a few teams out there who don't care how much they need to spend to get it; then there's a few more teams who do care but have consciously decided to go along with it out of necessity. Bayern still seems to balk at that game. And of course, in spite of Bayern's considerable financial might, they do not have an oligarch or the sovereign wealth fund of a sheikhdom behind them and their TV revenues do not match those of the Premier League elite or RM/Barca.
> 
> Perhaps it's that realization which drives them toward 'system coaches' like Tuchel who promise to do more with less rather than 'country club coaches' like Ancelotti who will do something with the elite squad you hand him but hasn't shown the ability to develop a team.




Bayern have a world class backline, GK & striker; with a ton of midfield talent and their attack still has Robben, Müller & Hamez to surround Lewy. The roster by no way excuses how much worse Ancelotti got them to play then Pep did. Of course Carlo isn't anywhere near as good as Pep, but the drop off has still been massive.


----------



## Albatros

Ancelotti can be blamed for losing the room, but not for the failed transfer policy. It might have been necessary to sack him, but the current situation is not all on him.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> Ancelotti can be blamed for losing the room, but not for the failed transfer policy. It might have been necessary to sack him, but the current situation is not all on him.




Failed transfer policy? They added Hummels, Hamez, Tolisso, Rudy & Sule to the team Pep had dominating


----------



## Albatros

Hummels is the only one seriously adding quality and he's ultimately from the own juniors. The rest aren't anywhere near enough to compensate for the loss of the likes of Lahm and Alonso and the expiry dates of Ribéry and Robben.


----------



## cgf

That's on carlo for failing to utilize the talent he was given, but that roster is more stacked now than it was in Pep's final season.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nalens Oga said:


> ^ Your signature isn't big enough.




Thanks for the feedback. I will try to make it bigger and more obnoxious.



Albatros said:


> Hummels is the only one seriously adding quality and he's ultimately from the own juniors. The rest aren't anywhere near enough to compensate for the loss of the likes of Lahm and Alonso and the expiry dates of Ribéry and Robben.




Eh, I think they have more than covered for Alonso and did well to cover for Lahm. More like Alonso didn't do well to replace Kroos. They have done a poor job of replacing Ribery and Robben, though. That has been their biggest failure, and perhaps the biggest reason for their decline since the treble season. They tried to look for discounts on unwanted world class players like James and talented but not super elite players like Coman and Costa. I don't know if they will get lucky enough to find another Ribery and Robben in Madrid's next generation of unwanted players.


----------



## Albatros

No one can realistically replace Kroos 1:1 on the pitch anyway, but Alonso was an excellent choice because of his second to none leadership qualities. I would say that the combined departure of him and Lahm is the key reason for the return of FC Hollywood.


----------



## cgf

...you realize that Alonso was Bayern's biggest liability the past two seasons...right?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> No one can realistically replace Kroos 1:1 on the pitch anyway, but Alonso was an excellent choice because of his second to none leadership qualities. I would say that the combined departure of him and Lahm is the key reason for the return of FC Hollywood.




I'd say Rudy and Weigl or even Kimmich would have been far better Kroos replacements than Alonso. It was really bad to buy Alonso for cheap but think Kroos was dispensable, as if they were interchangeable for the simple reason that they're both very good at making long passes.


----------



## cgf

There's no reason for Carlo not to have a monstrous team if he organized them better in possession:

Lewandowski
James/Müller
James/Alaba - Vidal - Thiago - Robben
Kimmich/Rudy
Alaba/Mats - Boateng - Mats/Kimmich
Neuer
-------------------------------------
Lewy - Müller
James
Alaba - Thiago - Vidal - Robben
Hummels - Boateng - Kimmich
Neuer

Ribery, Coman, Bernat, Tolisso, Rudy, Javi, Süle, Früchtl​


----------



## Albatros

cgf said:


> ...you realize that Alonso was Bayern's biggest liability the past two seasons...right?




No. I never understood the amount of hate he received. At most he was at times used in a wrong role minding his age and mobility.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> No. I never understood the amount of hate he received. At most he was at times used in a wrong role minding his age and mobility.




When they came up against the top midfields of the world he was just way too easy to press out of the match and run-over. That's why he got hate. That and Kimmich & Lahm were both better for that role but were pushed aside for him because Bayern bought Xabi for cheap instead of a RB.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

cgf said:


> Bayern have a world class backline, GK & striker; with a ton of midfield talent and their attack still has Robben, Müller & Hamez to surround Lewy. The roster by no way excuses how much worse Ancelotti got them to play then Pep did. Of course Carlo isn't anywhere near as good as Pep, but the drop off has still been massive.




Robben is fading, the usefulness of "James" at this level is debatable. Let's face it, they didn't win the CL with Pep either - didn't even make the Final. If the standard is to compete and win vs Europe's best than Pep failed that task, too. And the squad isn't better now than it was 2 years ago.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Making the semifinals of the CL isn't competing with Europe's best? Robben and Ribery were generally not healthy down the stretch of the CL campaigns in Pep's time there. They were healthy in 2012-13.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Shockingly toothless start by Schalke. Goretzka sitting quite deep and having no influence. Leverkusen have barely gotten any balls into the box though for their possession.


----------



## Albatros

Only 2015 did Ribéry miss the semifinals, but Guardiola didn't get along with him in general.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Nalens Oga said:


> Shockingly toothless start by Schalke. Goretzka sitting quite deep and having no influence. Leverkusen have barely gotten any balls into the box though for their possession.




I reverse-jinxed him, Goretzka scores on a free kick with a poorly organized wall by Leno.


----------



## cgf

Schalke should replace Oczipka with Meyer or Bentaleb and push Konoplyanka out wide, with either Meyer joining Harit behind Embolo, or Bentaleb pushing LeGo forward next to Harit.

Leverkusen really need Schreck & Akkaynak to break through ASAP cause that midfield is going to take them no where. As is they should just say f*** it and roll with:

Brandt - Alario - Volland
Wendel - Havertz - Henrichs - Bailey
Retsos - Tah - Jedvaj

Bench:
Bellarabi, Mehmedi; Schreck, Arranguiz, Akkaynak, Lars; Sven​


----------



## Nalens Oga

Embolo off for Burgstaller who should've started in the first place. Embolo didn't really add any energy or anything.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

McKennie's putting in a nice shift today. This has been one of his best games, also his third start in a row.


----------



## Nalens Oga

The central midfield on these two teams is so shit at counter-attacking outside of Goretzka.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Hahahahaha


----------



## Nalens Oga

I disagree about McKennie being good, hasn't really done anything on either side of the ball for me today. Just average.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Fahrmann probably MOTM for me. Ref and Volland were goat.


----------



## cgf

Given that the squad's strength is in the midfielders it can put between Tah & Eggestein, we need to flood that part of the pitch. Lets get as many of Dahoud, Amiri, Henrichs, Neuhaus & Hartel out there...and maybe see what happens if Teuchert is paired with JoJo up front. So I want to see something like:


Teuchert - Eggestein
Hartel
Amiri - Dahoud
Neuhaus
Henrichs - Kehrer - Tah - Klostermann
Nübel
-----------------------------------------
Teuchert - Eggestein
Henrichs - Amiri - Dahoud - Passlack
Neuhaus
Kehrer - Tah - Klostermann
Nübel
-----------------------------------------
Teuchert - Eggestein
Hartel
Henrichs - Amiri - Dahoud - Passlack
Kehrer - Tah - Klostermann
Nübel
-----------------------------------------
Eggestein
Hartel/Ochs - Amiri - Dahoud - Passlack
Neuhaus
Henrichs - Kehrer - Tah - Klostermann
Nübel​


----------



## Hadoop

Just did some quick reading on Nagelsmann. Wow this guy is impressive for a 30 year-old coach; a lot of upside too.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> Only 2015 did Ribéry miss the semifinals, but Guardiola didn't get along with him in general.




Robben was probably more important and more liked by Pep. He missed 2 out of 3 years. Except for Pep's first year, they had serious injury issues at that stage of the campaign.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Which morning game looks the best? Probably Wolfsburg vs Mainz for me, the other three will be too one-sided. Though I can see Hannover upsetting Gladbach.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Hamburg-Bremen always has some fire. It's a big rivalry.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Claudio Pizarro to Köln is done. Contract until the end of the season.

Thomas Tuchel is negotiating with Bayern several reports say.


----------



## Albatros

Hadoop said:


> Just did some quick reading on Nagelsmann. Wow this guy is impressive for a 30 year-old coach; a lot of upside too.




Second best of his class as a student by the way - behind Schalke's Tedesco who was coaching Hoffenheim's U16 at the time. Also lowly Kaiserslautern's new coach Strasser (3:0 against Fürth in debut) was a part of that group.


----------



## Albatros

I was sure Yarmolenko will replace Dembélé just fine, but oh boy.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Augsburg need to be carded, they are going to hurt someone with these challenges.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Hannover are a pretty energetic team, tough to breakdown especially for a team as tactically meh as Gladbach.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Air Caiuby almost scored again wow nice save. Augsburg are outplaying them this half.


----------



## ecemleafs

Dortmund have been very poor in the 2nd half.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Wtf is this?

edit: what a shitty penalty by Auba


----------



## Albatros

Augsburg would deserve a point after that.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Opare is trying to injure everyone. Two red card challenges.


----------



## Nalens Oga

^ That was a clean tackle stop whining

Max Phillip did nothing after coming on. 

There's been like 3 or 4 goals from corners in the 3 other games. Harnik equaliser against Gladbach: https://imgtc.b-cdn.net/uploads/BMh2ghuAHtn.mp4


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

This team doesn't defend well. Players aren't good enough, for the most part. I won't say we are lucky to win because we also missed a number of chances, but against a better team, we wouldn't have only allowed one goal. They gotta start improving the defense. In the transfer window, I want the emphasis to be on improving the defense even further. Need more talented defenders.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> ^ That was a clean tackle stop whining
> 
> Max Phillip did nothing after coming on.
> 
> There's been like 3 or 4 goals from corners in the 3 other games. Harnik equaliser against Gladbach: https://imgtc.b-cdn.net/uploads/BMh2ghuAHtn.mp4




It definitely wasn't clean. It was either yellow or red, he was lucky to see yellow. Opare could've also been sent off earlier in the match where he kicked a Dortmund player in the knee after he was beat. And then there was the challenge at the end of the game, after that post. I thought that one was closer to clean than the other two, but I still thought that one was a foul. I wouldn't have given any cards on the last one though.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Glad Dortmund got lucky and avoided losing points after a midweek fixture. Always tricky even against poor but more well rested teams like Augsburg. They really tailed off in the second half. Auba in particular. Would be nice if these guys got a full week of rest before the next fixture but no, I suppose we need to have another stupid international break for them to travel and wear themselves out. Hopefully as many of them stay in Dortmund as possible. Weigl, Dahoud, Bartra, and Auba especially.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> This team doesn't defend well. Players aren't good enough, for the most part. I won't say we are lucky to win because we also missed a number of chances, but against a better team, we wouldn't have only allowed one goal. They gotta start improving the defense. In the transfer window, I want the emphasis to be on improving the defense even further. Need more talented defenders.




ehh, they're not far off personnel wise. Bring in de Ligt, buy a more talented right back than Toljan, and they are pretty well set defensively. Bartra's quality is really underrated by most.


----------



## ecemleafs

Why wasn't gotze even on the bench. Dortmund was crying out for a cm to keep possession in the 2nd half.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> ehh, they're not far off personnel wise. Bring in de Ligt, buy a more talented right back than Toljan, and they are pretty well set defensively. Bartra's quality is really underrated by most.




Bartra & Toprak are both really good. With Zagadou & a kid like de Ligt pushing up behind them; and Sokratis eventually returning to form; I'd be happy with those CBs. RB is obviously still a hole if you stick with a back 4...though if it would be a non-issue if you just used a back 3 *shakes head*

Auba/Reus - Auba/Yarmo
Raphael - Gotze - Dahoud - Pulisic
Weigl
Toprak - Sokratis - Bartra
Burki
----------------------------------
Aubamayeng
Reus/Philipp - Yarmolenko
Raphael - Weigl - Dahoud - Pulisic
Toprak - Sokratis - Bartra
Burki​


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Bartra & Toprak are both really good. With Zagadou & a kid like de Ligt pushing up behind them; and Sokratis eventually returning to form; I'd be happy with those CBs. RB is obviously still a hole if you stick with a back 4...though if it would be a non-issue if you just used a back 3 *shakes head*
> 
> Auba/Reus - Auba/Yarmo
> Raphael - Gotze - Dahoud - Pulisic
> Weigl
> Toprak - Sokratis - Bartra
> Burki
> ----------------------------------
> Aubamayeng
> Reus/Philipp - Yarmolenko
> Raphael - Weigl - Dahoud - Pulisic
> Toprak - Sokratis - Bartra
> Burki​




Yeah, a back three would be nice sometimes, but IDK if we'll see it out of Bosz. If he sticks to 4-3-3 like formations, 5 CBs is too much. I sort of don't think Sokratis will be pushed out next summer, either, but he's the one I'd most like to go. Piszczek out and someone like Cancelo (sigh), Weiser, or Henrichs in.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Hunt's back for Hamburg and some injuries to Bremen's defense, this could be juicy.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Yeah, a back three would be nice sometimes, but IDK if we'll see it out of Bosz. If he sticks to 4-3-3 like formations, 5 CBs is too much. I sort of don't think Sokratis will be pushed out next summer, either, but he's the one I'd most like to go. Piszczek out and someone like Cancelo (sigh), Weiser, or Henrichs in.




I can see Weiser happening...especially after playing for Hertha makes Jogi ignore him for the WC...but I'm going to continue to hope that Henrichs goes somewhere where he can be the dynamic 8 that he was prior to reaching senior football; since Leverkusen seem incapable of recognizing how badly they need him in that part of the pitch.

Alario
Brandt - Volland
Wendell - Havertz - Henrichs - Bailey
Retsos - Tah - Jedvaj
Leno

And they're in a top 4 spot with just decent coaching​


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> I can see Weiser happening...especially after playing for Hertha makes Jogi ignore him for the WC...but I'm going to continue to hope that Henrichs goes somewhere where he can be the dynamic 8 that he was prior to reaching senior football; since Leverkusen seem incapable of recognizing how badly they need him in that part of the pitch.
> 
> Alario
> Brandt - Volland
> Wendell - Havertz - Henrichs - Bailey
> Retsos - Tah - Jedvaj
> Leno
> 
> And they're in a top 4 spot with just decent coaching​




Bundesliga overall quality is really suffering with Leverkusen badly underperforming the past year and a half. Schalke has been a big waste of talent too but maybe they're turning it around.


----------



## Nalens Oga

These teams are only scoring if it's from a set-piece. Hamburg are awful in open play.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Delaney not having any influence on the game, needs to wake up.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Another yellow for Papadopolous lol (5th of the season).


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> Another yellow for Papadopolous lol (5th of the season).




If he didn't take yellows, he'd give up a goal per game due to being beat for pace.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Hamburg's legs look dead but Bremen still can't finish shit


----------



## Nalens Oga

Looks like Bremen's heading towards another relegation battle, shit game.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Bundesliga overall quality is really suffering with Leverkusen badly underperforming the past year and a half. Schalke has been a big waste of talent too but maybe they're turning it around.




I'm fine with Leverkusen joining Wolfsburg as a talent sink that players learn to avoid unless they just need a temporary cash grab. Schalke's youth is at least from their own academy...for the most part...Leverkusen have been the worst poachers at the youth level in Germany since this 'new Golden Age' started; though Henrichs, Havertz & Akkaynak are their own and they haven't done anything overly offensive since poaching Schreck.

If Tuchel taking the Bayern job leaves Nagelsmann with TSG for a few more years of CL funds replenishing the roster...or leads him to take over Leipzig instead...that would be great. I wish there were more german speaking coaches like Tuchel, Nagelsmann, Favre, Bosz, or Tedesco (if he works out) cause Gladbach, Werder, Hertha, Leverkusen, Wolfsburg, and Frankfurt either already have the skill to play great football with the right maestro in charge, or have the young talent to soon be there

...Frankfurt in particular needs the right man to shepherd in the likes of Barkok, Cetin, Mbouhom, Mahmudov, the Kabuya twins, Knothe, etc.; so they don't go the way of Besuschkow, Stendera & Dadashov


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> I'm fine with Leverkusen joining Wolfsburg as a talent sink that players learn to avoid unless they just need a temporary cash grab. Schalke's youth is at least from their own academy...for the most part...Leverkusen have been the worst poachers at the youth level in Germany since this 'new Golden Age' started; though Henrichs, Havertz & Akkaynak are their own and they haven't done anything overly offensive since poaching Schreck.
> 
> If Tuchel taking the Bayern job leaves Nagelsmann with TSG for a few more years of CL funds replenishing the roster...or leads him to take over Leipzig instead...that would be great. I wish there were more german speaking coaches like Tuchel, Nagelsmann, Favre, Bosz, or Tedesco (if he works out) cause Gladbach, Werder, Hertha, Leverkusen, Wolfsburg, and Frankfurt either already have the skill to play great football with the right maestro in charge, or have the young talent to soon be there
> 
> ...Frankfurt in particular needs the right man to shepherd in the likes of Barkok, Cetin, Mbouhom, Mahmudov, the Kabuya twins, Knothe, etc.; so they don't go the way of Besuschkow, Stendera & Dadashov




I have no problem with Wolfsburg or Leverkusen tanking either but could they please sell their actually good players to other teams first if they're going to do so? The player quality isn't really going down overall in the league. Just some teams are wasting good rosters.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Rumor that Goretzka is set to sign for Bayern next summer, do it!


----------



## Savant

Bremen can’t score without Kruse


----------



## ecemleafs

Nalens Oga said:


> Rumor that Goretzka is set to sign for Bayern next summer, do it!



Hasnt that been a rumor for a while? Hes out of contract right?


----------



## Vipers31

ecemleafs said:


> Hasnt that been a rumor for a while? Hes out of contract right?



Yes and yes.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Schalke keep letting their players' contracts run out and keep losing them for free.

Goretzka is a good player but I don't see him really improving Bayern's midfield. They could choose just about any young midfielder they want. Doesn't make a ton of sense to go for Goretzka; they could go for someone with more potential, even as a backup.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Goretzka's arguably the best central midfielder in the Bundesliga so far this season (Keita's been out-of-form/suspended). He'd be an upgrade on Tolisso plus he's like 10 years younger than Vidal. Pretty much the perfect and safe target imo. I don't really see any other German CMs that are U-25 in the Bundesliga and can get into the Bayern line-up even on a rotation basis outside of the two Dortmund ones that aren't moving and maybe Dominik Kohr who would likely be a sub at most.

So they should go for him. Better than him ending up on Liverpool or Barcelona.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nalens Oga said:


> Goretzka's arguably the best central midfielder in the Bundesliga so far this season




No way.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> No way.




Why don't you like him? 

You seem to be the low person on Goretzka. Why's that?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Why don't you like him?
> 
> You seem to be the low person on Goretzka. Why's that?




I'm not the only one. cgf also said he's not as good as the likes of Demirbay and Dahoud. He's a good player, but he has not been close to the best CM in Germany this year. Let's not forget this is the league in which Thiago Alcantara plays.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> I have no problem with Wolfsburg or Leverkusen tanking either but could they please sell their actually good players to other teams first if they're going to do so? The player quality isn't really going down overall in the league. Just some teams are wasting good rosters.




Henrichs & Schreck to you guys

Reus - Auba - Yarmo
Dahoud - Gotze
Weigl
Raphael - Toprak - Bartra - Henrichs
----------------------------
Auba - Yarmo
Gotze
Raphael - Dahoud
Weigl
Schmelzer - Bartra - Toprak - Henrichs​Brandt to Bayern;

Lewy - Müller
Brandt/Alaba - Thiago - Vidal - Robben/Brandt
Kimmich
Hummels - Boa - Martinez
------------------------
Lewandowski
Brandt/Müller - Hamez/Müller
Brandt/Alaba - Thiago - Vidal - Robben/Brandt
Hummels - Boa - Kimmich​
Havertz, Akkaynak & Tah to Leipzig;

Werner - Augustin
Havertz
Forsberg - Keita - Laimer - Kampl
Upamecano - Tah - Klostermannn
---------------------------------
Werner - Augustin
Forsberg - Keita - Havertz - Kampl
Akkaynak/Laimer
Upamecano - Tah - Klostermannn​
Wendell & Bailey to BMG;

Raffael - Stindl
Hazard
Wendell - Kramer - Zakaria - Bailey
Veste - Ginter - Elvedi
----------------------------
Raffael - Stindl
Wendell - Cuisance - Kramer - Bailey
Zakaria
Veste - Ginter - Elvedi​
Volland & Retsos to Hoffenheim

Kramaric - Volland/Uth
Volland/Zuber - Demirbay - Amiri - Kaderabek/Gnabry
Grillitsch/Geiger
Hubner - Vogt - Retsos
-------------------------------
Gnabry - Kramaric - Volland
Zuber - Demirbay - Geiger - Kaderabek
Hubner - Vogt - Retsos​

Alario & Jedvaj to Werder;

Kruse - Alario
Augustinson - Kainz - Delaney - Bartels
Junuzovic
Jedvaj - Moisander - Bauer​

Youth: Eggestein (FW), Manneh (FW); Barry (W); Mbom (MF), Schneider (AMF), Philipp (AMF), Gruev (MF), Toure (MF), Schmidt (AMF); Verlaat (CB)​


----------



## Nalens Oga

I said best CM so far this year. Thiago hasn't been on form and he's only played around 4 games. Dahoud and Weigl both give the ball away a lot more and are good but more raw plus less of an offensive threat and haven't played even half the Bundesliga games this season either. Demirbay's 3 years older and not even in the same league as the other 3 defensively.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Thiago has also been better than Goretzka this year

Dahoud and Weigl objectively lose the ball less than Goretzka in this short season. They are better dribblers in midfield, and offer more of an offensive threat through their buildup play. You're right that they haven't played much this season. They are both clearly better players than Goretzka over the past 2+ years. And some other CMs are better than Goretzka this year.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> I said best CM so far this year. Thiago hasn't been on form and he's only played around 4 games. Dahoud and Weigl both give the ball away a lot more and are good but more raw plus less of an offensive threat and haven't played even half the Bundesliga games this season either. Demirbay's 3 years older and not even in the same league as the other 3 defensively.




Weigl does not give the ball away more, he's one of the best possession CM's in the world, and I think Dahoud has better offense than Goretzka. Goretzka's a mix of the two because he combines good defense and good offense, he's also big and athletic, but worse than Weigl and Dahoud at their best attributes. Weigl is smarter defensively and a better passer, Dahoud is more of an offensive threat and nearly as athletic.

I'd take both over Goretzka, but all three are very good. Regardless, I hope Dortmund can keep ahold of Weigl, Dahoud and Goetze. That has the potential to be one of the best midfields in the world. Having that midfield makes things so much easier, a lot more margin for error offensively and defensively in future years.


----------



## Albatros

Şahin deserves to be mentioned too, one of the most important pieces in the best team currently.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Albatros said:


> Şahin deserves to be mentioned too, one of the most important pieces in the best team currently.




It was unsustainable. He had a few nice games, he's not a terrible player, but no way is he one of the best CM's in Germany. He'd be a good player on a lower level team, but up there with the absolute best CM's? Absolutely not, IMO. He's one of the problems at Dortmund, I don't trust him to adequately play as a back up for Weigl, although he's done well enough in that role to start the season.


----------



## Albatros

Bon Esprit said:


> Claudio Pizarro to Köln is done. Contract until the end of the season.




And Artjoms Rudnevs retired, so that's why.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Freiburg trolling Hoffenheim, Well done, Streich.

Surprisingly Willy is putting Carlo's benchwarmers on the pitch. Bayern-Berlin 1:0.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Yeah I knew he was gonna start Ribery because of the whole shitstorm and Mueller as well but those two are no longer starters compared to James/Coman in my eyes. Ribery hasn't been as bad in this game at least in fairness, Berlin deciding to mostly sit back and counter at home makes it easier for him.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Nalens Oga said:


> Yeah I knew he was gonna start Ribery because of the whole ****storm and Mueller as well but those two are no longer starters compared to James/Coman in my eyes. Ribery hasn't been as bad in this game at least in fairness, Berlin deciding to mostly sit back and counter at home makes it easier for him.




He put the entire "old school" on the pitch. Hummels, Boateng, Robbery. And he did rightfully so. Carlo was out of his mind in Paris.


----------



## Nalens Oga

He wasn't out of his mind for not starting Robbery. Playing Martinez instead of Boateng/Hummels at CB might have been stupid but Ribery in particular is no good against a team like PSG anymore. THis sort of game is perfect for Ribery, he doesn't really have to move his old legs outside of the final third much, the team has lots of possession and not that much running for him. The PSG game was a lot more back and forth, his main mistake on the left in that game was not instructing Alaba to defend more leaving that entire left side constantly open to the counter.


----------



## Nalens Oga

He subbed off Robben for Thiago (strange) and then of course Ribery injures himself a minute later...

Also they aren't good enough anymore to play this high a line but of course they'll just blame the backup GK instead.


----------



## Nalens Oga

They need a goal so he uses his last sub on Sule for Boateng? WTF is this?


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Thanks Bayern!


----------



## Cassano

Kalou still haunting Bayern 5 years later


----------



## Nalens Oga

Hahah classic Koln. Zero finishing.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Thiago has also been better than Goretzka this year
> 
> Dahoud and Weigl objectively lose the ball less than Goretzka in this short season. They are better dribblers in midfield, and offer more of an offensive threat through their buildup play. You're right that they haven't played much this season. They are both clearly better players than Goretzka over the past 2+ years. And some other CMs are better than Goretzka this year.




I was one of the first to fall for LeGo's tools when he was a freshly 17 year old winger for Bochum, but god damn is he over-rated by a lot of folks now because of those tools and his goals. But unfortunately, he's not even close to the level of Dahoud, Kramer, Demirbay, Amiri, Weigl, Kimmich, etc. 

If his brain ever catches up he could reach their level, but as is he's a deep lying counter-striker who has no clue what to do in possession without first taking a few touches. And he gets very reckless positionally against the ball.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Claudio Pizarro having to be subbed on for the useless Cordoba who's injured himself. Bittencourt is the only decent looking player for them.

RB if they had a coach who improved their movement off the ball in possession and dealt with counters better then they would destroy teams like this.


----------



## Nalens Oga

RB really needed to start Augustin with Werner injured. They have no proper striker on, Bruma/Poulsen are only complementary to a striker. Augustin can be a bit of a target man with composed finishing at least.


----------



## cgf

I'd play Augustin & Sabitzer up front in Werner's absence...granted I'd play a 3-1-4-2 or a 3-4-1-2 with that personnel; with Klostermann joining Upamecano & Orban in the back three; three of Keita, Kampl, Laimer & Abouchabaka in the midfield; and Forsberg on one wing with Kampl or Bruma on the other.


----------



## Nalens Oga

They don't really have the holding midfielders yet to play 3 at the back unless Keita plays deep which is a waste of his talent imo. Plus an unadventurous coach. But then again Klostermann and Halstenberg aren't good enough fullbacks defensively to be part of a good back 4 either.


----------



## cgf

With three at the back & their focus on pressing; Keita & Kampl/Laimer with Abouchabaka/Sabitzer sitting between those two & the front two, or Keita & Kampl in front of Laimer, is more than good enough.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Franck Ribery is probably out until the end of the year (not season).


----------



## Albatros

Duisburg managed to lose 3:1 to Düsseldorf in the second league - despite having *29* shots on goal and among other great achievements like a missed penalty also hitting a post 4 times in the same situation. That must hurt.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Werner injury more serious than I thought, withdrawn from the international team (so either they'll have to play a false 10 with Stindl leading or play Wagner I'm guessing).

Also pretty funny report from Kicker on Ancelotti and Bayern's training (or lack of):

_"Robben, Neuer, Müller and Boateng as well as Lahm and Alonso last season complained to the Bayern board about Carlo's training methods. They felt he didn't improve the team or the players. Robben specifically said his son received better training with his youth team than Bayern did with Ancelotti. *When the players organized individual training sessions on their own, Ancelotti forbade them. Players then moved to a different location for those training sessions.* His fitness coach was smoking in the locker room and didn't do sufficient warm-up training (according to Kicker: Sometimes only 3 minutes). Ahead of the game against PSG, for the first time (!!) during his tenure in Munich, video analysis were made, but their results didn't enter the preparation for the game. There was no in-game coaching. All Ancelotti told them during the draw against Wolfsburg at HT was "you have to watch out better". Kimmich, Coman and Boateng were thinking about leaving the club. The team atmosphere was toxic because Ancelotti seemed to favour the Spanish players without an apparent reason._"


----------



## Albatros

Now Müller & co. no longer have that excuse. They started "proving" their point by playing like shit against Hertha. If Boateng wants to leave in his current form, that will be for Fürth rather than Manchester City.


----------



## Hadoop

Fantastic chance for Dormund with Bayern Munich in apparent disarray. Their dip in form is probably temporary though, Bayern have class and that's probably why fivethirtyeight.com still has them favoured to win the League (52% to 45% for BvB)


----------



## Nalens Oga

Heynckes? Really? It's 2017. Hoeness needs to retire, idiot is holding the club back. What an uninspired choice.

Also interestingly Plattenhardt is the only fit LB in the international squad. I fully expect Loew to not even bother to use him.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nalens Oga said:


> Heynckes? Really? It's 2017. Hoeness needs to retire, idiot is holding the club back. What an uninspired choice.
> 
> Also interestingly Plattenhardt is the only fit LB in the international squad. I fully expect Loew to not even bother to use him.




Uhh, I mean, Hoeness should go cause he's gross, but Nagelsmann isn't an uninspired choice next summer and I imagine the number of candidates willing just to keep the seat warm for him was pretty small.


----------



## theprofessor

Order is restored at Bayern.


----------



## Albatros

Heynckes is a great choice instead of something silly like Tuchel, even if he doesn't win the treble this time around. For once I'm impressed.


----------



## Evilo

Imagine he wins the treble with that squad... 
The Pep fans humiliation !


----------



## Bon Esprit

Nalens Oga said:


> Heynckes? Really? It's 2017. Hoeness needs to retire, idiot is holding the club back. What an uninspired choice.
> 
> Also interestingly Plattenhardt is the only fit LB in the international squad. I fully expect Loew to not even bother to use him.




If you think twice Heynckes ain't a bad choice. Bayern go for Nagelsmann, that's pretty clear. But he isn't available now. It's obvious the negotaions with Tuchel didn't go well and I'm sure Bayern didn't really want him anyway. So Heynckes would be a stop-gab this season.

IMO Bayern realized they will not win the CL with the current group of players, the fitness issues the team has.
I think they decided this year will be a transition year, challenging for the league title and that's about it. They might think about spending big time next summer, replacing Ribery and making the team competative all around.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> Heynckes is a great choice instead of something silly like Tuchel, even if he doesn't win the treble this time around. For once I'm impressed.




How would Tuchel have been silly?



Evilo said:


> Imagine he wins the treble with that squad...
> The Pep fans humiliation !




Far more likely, the people left with an idealized memory of Heynckes's team dismantling Barca in the treble season will get a reminder of how good he actually is.


----------



## Albatros

Poor interpersonal skills + Kalle & Uli.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> Poor interpersonal skills + Kalle & Uli.




The badness of his interpersonal skills is really overrated. Interpersonal skills are extremely important, but very difficult for outsiders to assess.


----------



## Evilo

Deficient Mode said:


> The badness of his interpersonal skills is really overrated. Interpersonal skills are extremely important, but very* difficult for outsiders to assess*.



And yet isn't it what you're doing?
Or maybe you're an insider?


----------



## Vipers31

Evilo said:


> And yet isn't it what you're doing?
> Or maybe you're an insider?




The onus isn't on him to disprove bad interpersonal skills, though. There weren't any issues at Mainz at the time - his relationship with Heidel was good, even after the rumored ask of his to be released from his contract during his sabbatical. The only issues he's had really are with Watzke, who is hardly an authority on personal skills, and players with limited talent that had trouble making his team like Sahin and Schmelzer. I completely agree that people have badly exaggerated what is there to know about his interpersonal skills.


----------



## cgf

It blows me away that people take Watzke's side over Tuchel. I assume much of it comes from the same out-dated thinking that is at the heart of all pep hate; but it still shocks me that so many people seem to be so unwilling to accept that the game has evolved.


----------



## Vipers31

cgf said:


> It blows me away that people take Watzke's side over Tuchel. I assume much of it comes from the same out-dated thinking that is at the heart of all pep hate; but it still shocks me that so many people seem to be so unwilling to accept that the game has evolved.




I don't think that's it. Many BVB fans are taking one side because Aki/Sahin/Schmeltzer are still theirs, while TT isn't. Others just dislike TT because he's outspoken and doesn't bother to hide his intelligence - he just doesn't have the "would like to have a beer with" factor for the average fan. They'd expect him to stare at them disapprovingly, while lecturing them on the benefits of a different dietary approach.


----------



## Albatros

Vipers31 said:


> The onus isn't on him to disprove bad interpersonal skills, though. There weren't any issues at Mainz at the time - his relationship with Heidel was good, even after the rumored ask of his to be released from his contract during his sabbatical.




At the time as in when? Before the Müller case, or his contact with Schalke?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> And yet isn't it what you're doing?
> Or maybe you're an insider?




So are we going to talk about Carlo having bad interpersonal skills the rest of his career? I think what happened with Tuchel isn't that exceptional. Losing part of the locker room isn't rare. In the vast majority of cases, it isn't depicted as a permanent flaw that will prevent a manager from succeeding at his next job.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Line-up, Goretzka's on the wing I think


----------



## Nalens Oga

Oh nvm that's probably the game. Rudy scoring out of all players, might as well watch England


----------



## Vipers31

Albatros said:


> At the time as in when? Before the Müller case, or his contact with Schalke?



What's wrong with the Müller "case"? He gave more talented young players a chance, and was proven right by Karius, while Müller bothered the court system with a clearly baseless lawsuit that he lost. What about his contact with Schalke? What about that thing is supposed to illustrate poor interpersonal skills? His boss from back then in Heidel called the work with him "outstanding" years later and would have liked to bring him to his new club.


----------



## Evilo

Deficient Mode said:


> So are we going to talk about Carlo having bad interpersonal skills the rest of his career? I think what happened with Tuchel isn't that exceptional. Losing part of the locker room isn't rare. In the vast majority of cases, it isn't depicted as a permanent flaw that will prevent a manager from succeeding at his next job.



I don't have a side on this, I don't know Tuchel or BVB enough for me to make a judgment.
But your argument that people talking about Tuchel's problems are blowing things out of proportion because they're not in the know... well you do the same by denying them.
I had a problem with the form, that's it. You can't have it both ways.

As for Ancelotti, frankly, his career is known well enough. I never liked his approach towards young players or lack of attack mindset, but when guys like Robber or Ribery are attacking you, you know you're in the good papers.
These two are such well known idiots.
Ancelottis knows a thing or two about winning, both as a player and as a coach. He won more than the Robery circus, that's for sure.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> I don't have a side on this, I don't know Tuchel or BVB enough for me to make a judgment.
> But your argument that people talking about Tuchel's problems are blowing things out of proportion because they're not in the know... well you do the same by denying them.
> I had a problem with the form, that's it. You can't have it both ways.
> 
> As for Ancelotti, frankly, his career is known well enough. I never liked his approach towards young players or lack of attack mindset, but when guys like Robber or Ribery are attacking you, you know you're in the good papers.
> These two are such well known idiots.
> Ancelottis knows a thing or two about winning, both as a player and as a coach. He won more than the Robery circus, that's for sure.




I'm not denying them. He definitely lost part of the locker room and clashed with management. And part of the locker room that hated him (Hummels) also clashed with Ancelotti. Some players liked him, though (e.g. Dembele). I just think it is unfair treatment for the media to claim that he has permanently bad interpersonal skills that will hinder him at every job. This sport is filled with disciplinarian coaches, and hardly any of them get branded this way. The reactionary German football media never treated Tuchel fairly, even way before these problems came to light.


----------



## Albatros

Müller was the number one until his injury against Augsburg early November, was injured for 6 weeks and then degraded to _5th_ goalkeeper by Tuchel. Even Christian Wetklo (34 at the time) was ahead of him. That talented Karius was given the chance and promoted ahead was of course understandable, Kicker rated him slightly better 3.07 that season vs. Müller 3.15, Wetklo 4.50, but to degrade and completely disregard your number one like that just because of an injury was terrible man management.

_With a couple of dissonances towards the end_ as Heidel put it. In the same interview Heidel also called him _not easy, maybe even complicated_ trying to put it nicely. Obviously there are no major hard feelings anymore between those particular two, but it wasn't like that during Tuchel's last year in Mainz.


----------



## Albatros

Deficient Mode said:


> This sport is filled with disciplinarian coaches, and hardly any of them get branded this way. The reactionary German football media never treated Tuchel fairly, even way before these problems came to light.




Sure it is like that, and someone like Magath wasn't treated exactly kindly by the press either. But Tuchel can primarily blame his own hypocrisy for his reputation, it's one thing to be a disciplinarian and another to not to live up to your own standards talking about honesty and respect but failing to be honest and respectful yourself. Even a disciplinarian has to earn his respect, without personal integrity it does not work.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> Sure it is like that, and someone like Magath wasn't treated exactly kindly by the press either. But Tuchel can primarily blame his own hypocrisy for his reputation, it's one thing to be a disciplinarian and another to not to live up to your own standards talking about honesty and respect but failing to be honest and respectful yourself. Even a disciplinarian has to earn his respect, without personal integrity it does not work.




Magath had far worse on-field results than Tuchel when he started to face criticism. And it was the results that sunk him.


----------



## cgf

Vipers31 said:


> I don't think that's it. Many BVB fans are taking one side because Aki/Sahin/Schmeltzer are still theirs, while TT isn't. Others just dislike TT because he's outspoken and doesn't bother to hide his intelligence - he just doesn't have the "would like to have a beer with" factor for the average fan. They'd expect him to stare at them disapprovingly, while lecturing them on the benefits of a different dietary approach.




I get that from BVB fans, though they should be more pissed with Watzke than anyone, but hearing it from non-BVB fans is weird.

...though I'd love to have Tuchel lecture me about tactics over a beer...


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> Müller was the number one until his injury against Augsburg early November, was injured for 6 weeks and then degraded to _5th_ goalkeeper by Tuchel. Even Christian Wetklo (34 at the time) was ahead of him. That talented Karius was given the chance and promoted ahead was of course understandable, Kicker rated him slightly better 3.07 that season vs. Müller 3.15, Wetklo 4.50, but to degrade and completely disregard your number one like that just because of an injury was terrible man management.
> 
> _With a couple of dissonances towards the end_ as Heidel put it. In the same interview Heidel also called him _not easy, maybe even complicated_ trying to put it nicely. Obviously there are no major hard feelings anymore between those particular two, but it wasn't like that during Tuchel's last year in Mainz.




I was following Heinz Müller's career a bit because I knew him in person since we lived in the same appartment house when he was with Hannover 96.
He was a journeyman his entire career, playing on teams in 2. Bundeliga, England (2. league), Norway etc.
He got his job at Mainz 05 by replacing an injured Dimo Wache. And then he lost his job the same way.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Müller_(Fußballspieler,_1978)


----------



## Nalens Oga

Hoffenheim look like they're getting healthy again. Hannover on the other hand...Felipe and Jonathas both seem like they've had setbacks in recovery and injuries are looking more long-term.

Also some not so good results for VFB/Werder/Hertha in friendlies against 3rd division and police sides despite starting quite a few players from the first team


----------



## Cassano

Neuer may miss more than 6 months.

All the pieces landing for a BvB title season.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Lol Keita got another red for his int'l team this time, waited until the end of the game at least and his suspension over for RB for their next match (but Ilsanker's injured now).


----------



## Deficient Mode

So Piszczek could be out for a month according to his agent. Dortmund with only one healthy full back atm lol. Schmelzer should be back soon at least.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> So Piszczek could be out for a month according to his agent. Dortmund with only one healthy full back atm lol. Schmelzer should be back soon at least.




How close is Guerreiro?? I saw he was doing some training.

I don't want Piszczek to be injured but is he really an improvement on these makeshift fullbacks?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> How close is Guerreiro?? I saw he was doing some training.
> 
> I don't want Piszczek to be injured but is he really an improvement on these makeshift fullbacks?




Guerreiro is also fairly close to making a return. Which is good. Too bad he and Schmelzer are both left backs.

Piszczek is still good against bad teams I find. Toljan hasn't exactly distinguished himself yet, either.


----------



## jniklast

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> How close is Guerreiro?? I saw he was doing some training.
> 
> I don't want Piszczek to be injured but is he really an improvement on these makeshift fullbacks?




Piszczek is still the best right back on the team. Also this means that Zagadou has to play LB again, so this definitely hurts.

Hopefully Guerreiro and/or Schmelzer are back soon. But it's probably another 2 weeks, which could be up to 4 games with just Zagadou and Toljan available. It's really unbelievable, with Guerreiro, Schmelzer, Piszczek, Durm and Toljan Dortmund has quite a few full backs (more than most teams) in their squad and now 4 of 5 are injured.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

We've barely seen any of Toljan. If he's halfway competent, he's better than Piszczek.

I wonder who's the team's third RB. Larsen or Bartra I'd think, although we haven't had that problem so far.

And as much as I prefer Zagadou at CB, he's been doing okay enough at LB. I want him to get games, whether it's at CB or LB, and we know right now he's 4th choice at CB, so he's not going to get many games there.


----------



## jniklast

Durm is the 3rd RB. Larsen could be an option for either side, he got a few minutes at LB earlier this season.

Piszczek hasn't been that bad, he clearly is aging and no longer top-class, but Toljan has to become better defensively to pass him. Could happen quickly for sure, but as of now I would still prefer Piszczek over him.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I know about Durm, but he's also another one injured, so he doesn't help.

We seem to disagree about Piszczek. He might not be a liability against Bundesliga teams who can't threaten Dortmund and UCL dobbers like APOEL but against any good team, he seems to stand out as our weakest link and it's been this way this season so far and all of last season. Tuchel didn't even trust him anymore at parts of the second half of last season defending in wide positions that he implimented a back 3, he was especially helped by the back 3 as he got way more cover for his mistakes. Whatever though, I think he's fine enough for now, he won't decide the team's season by himself, but he needs to completely go in the summer window. Two seasons of this level is not acceptable. It seems like our fans are generally more accepting of his mistakes because we have a lack of good RB options. There's no reason we can't sign a real starter next season and have Toljan as the back up.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Why couldn't we have gotten Rodriguez? What happened to him? I remember hearing he was the next big fullback and then quietly goes to Milan for pennies.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Why couldn't we have gotten Rodriguez? What happened to him? I remember hearing he was the next big fullback and then quietly goes to Milan for pennies.




LB


----------



## cgf

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Why couldn't we have gotten Rodriguez? What happened to him? I remember hearing he was the next big fullback and then quietly goes to Milan for pennies.




He stagnated badly and never rounded his game out. Still a magical left foot though.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Why is Robben leaving NT? Did they not qualify for WC?


----------



## theprofessor

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Why is Robben leaving NT? Did they not qualify for WC?




He's old. Time to move aside for a new generation, and he certainly wouldn't have been around for the next one.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Vidal retires from Natl too.

Is this the hip thing now?


----------



## Nalens Oga

What? No it's because they're old. Players retire from their NT when they get to around 30 or so usually when it comes to competitive countries with NT's that are hard to break into. 

Vidal's a piece of shit tbh but he does play for my favourite club and maybe it'll improve his club performance, I dunno.

Anyways, RB vs Dortmund on Saturday. The Friday game is another disappointing one.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

30 isn't old.

Vidal is probably the best player in Chile's team at 30.


----------



## Bon Esprit

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Why is Robben leaving NT? Did they not qualify for WC?



Robben is 33. The Dutch failed to qualify again. It's time to get rid of the old players and start from the ground. That's what they are going to do. They have young talented players, no doubt. But they need to play. No Robben van Persie etc.


----------



## Deficient Mode

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> 30 isn't old.
> 
> Vidal is probably the best player in Chile's team at 30.




It's pretty old.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Nah, it's not far off from what's considered peak performance age. But there's an old 30 and a young 30. A lot of it comes down to mileage. If you started playing 40-50 top level games a year as a teenager then 30 is rather old as you'll already have 500+ games in your bones. Like Messi for example..but then how many people would consider Messi an old player now?


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Nah, it's not far off from what's considered peak performance age. But there's an old 30 and a young 30. A lot of it comes down to mileage. If you started playing 40-50 top level games a year as a teenager then 30 is rather old as you'll already have 500+ games in your bones. Like Messi for example..but then how many people would consider Messi an old player now?




In this sport? Outfield players peak in their mid 20s. Vast majority of even the best players are out of top European football by 33-34. And even the best players in that age range (Iniesta, Mascherano, Robben, Chiellini) have noticeably fallen off.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Ronaldo, Zlatan.... Maybe they are outliers but I don't think its unreasonable to play at a (close to) elite level until ~35. Probably juts need dedication to staying in shape and eating right. Though Vidal doesn't seem like that type.

Hell, Look at Jagr


----------



## Live in the Now

It is unbelievably unreasonable and people should wise up as to how it is possible for players to play that long.

In the UFC every old fighter has been getting destroyed since random drug testing came into play.


----------



## Havre

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Ronaldo, Zlatan.... Maybe they are outliers but I don't think its unreasonable to play at a (close to) elite level until ~35. Probably juts need dedication to staying in shape and eating right. Though Vidal doesn't seem like that type.
> 
> Hell, Look at Jagr




Not really comparable. So many more hockey players have been able to be competitive at the highest level being 35+ than what the case is for football.

Have a football player ever (or at least the last 20-30 years) been world class at 40? That has happened in hockey.


----------



## Bon Esprit

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Ronaldo, Zlatan.... Maybe they are outliers but I don't think its unreasonable to play at a (close to) elite level until ~35. Probably juts need dedication to staying in shape and eating right. Though Vidal doesn't seem like that type.
> 
> Hell, Look at Jagr




Only a few players can play top level over 32/33. It depends on health and position they play. And talent, of course.
Today they play 50+ games a year including NT matches and matches all over the world. Players like Klaus Fichtel or Mirko Votava (I know you can't know them) played until they were 40+ on top level. But that was then. They couldn't do that today. 

How many hockey players (Jagr aside) play top level over 35 ?


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Deficient Mode said:


> In this sport? Outfield players peak in their mid 20s. Vast majority of even the best players are out of top European football by 33-34. And even the best players in that age range (Iniesta, Mascherano, Robben, Chiellini) have noticeably fallen off.




Matthaus was almost 30 when he led Germany to the World Cup and was 30 when he led Inter to the UEFA Cup and won FIFA player of the year a year later. Klinsmann was 30 when he had that great season at Spurs. And lets not even mention all the Italian defenders who often don't even start peaking before they get close to 30.

I think people's perception on this has noticeably changed as the average age of players has dropped so much in the last decade or so and especially people are given the chance to start much earlier. It used to be that 27-29 was considered the peak age and at 30 you'd be kind of at that point where you're still pretty close to peak but the drop-off has just begun or is about to begin, so maybe not a good idea to buy on the transfer market necessarily but if that's your star player you're banking on another 2-3 good years.


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Matthaus was almost 30 when he led Germany to the World Cup and was 30 when he led Inter to the UEFA Cup and won FIFA player of the year a year later. Klinsmann was 30 when he had that great season at Spurs. And lets not even mention all the Italian defenders who often don't even start peaking before they get close to 30.
> 
> I think people's perception on this has noticeably changed as the average age of players has dropped so much in the last decade or so and especially people are given the chance to start much earlier. It used to be that 27-29 was considered the peak age and at 30 you'd be kind of at that point where you're still pretty close to peak but the drop-off has just begun or is about to begin, so maybe not a good idea to buy on the transfer market necessarily but if that's your star player you're banking on another 2-3 good years.




Many good players will play good football at 30, and some will have career-defining moments like you mentioned. Schweinsteiger certainly did, but his play dropped off very sharply after winning the World Cup. The average player will certainly peak a few years before that. I think the cases of players peaking at 30 are very rare. Some of the best can continue to play very well at that age if they avoid injuries, but it's certainly far from the norm right now. The fact that players need to run a lot harder these days is probably a significant part of the reason why age would be lower.

The average age also seems to go in cycles. Sure, it was quite high in the late 90s and early 2000s, around where you said, but in 1990-91 the median of the average age of a Bundesliga team was 25.7. In 1970-71, it was also 25.7. In 1980-81, however, it was much closer to the late 90s number: 26.6.


----------



## maclean

Question regarding German ticketing in general, perhaps for cgf in particular - I'm going to be in Berlin at the beginning of November and decided to check what games are on and discovered Union is playing St Pauli at home, which is probably as attractive a match-up as I could've hoped for. The question is, if I get a friend who lives there to get tickets, will he have no problem doing so? Here games like that are often classified as "risky" meaning the tickets only go through the teams' respective fan clubs and it can be next to impossible to get them without a membership. Or that's the case up until a certain point and then only a small number of tickets are released for general buying. Do you think any of that will be applicable here?


----------



## Bon Esprit

maclean said:


> Question regarding German ticketing in general, perhaps for cgf in particular - I'm going to be in Berlin at the beginning of November and decided to check what games are on and discovered Union is playing St Pauli at home, which is probably as attractive a match-up as I could've hoped for. The question is, if I get a friend who lives there to get tickets, will he have no problem doing so? Here games like that are often classified as "risky" meaning the tickets only go through the teams' respective fan clubs and it can be next to impossible to get them without a membership. Or that's the case up until a certain point and then only a small number of tickets are released for general buying. Do you think any of that will be applicable here?




I'm not cgf, but neither Union fans nor Pauli fans can be rated as violent. St. Pauli is left wing and I don't think Union have trouble with that. It's not like BFC, Dynamo Dresden or Hansa Rostock who are ultra right wing.
I don't think Union Berlin-St. Pauli Hamburg is risky.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Sit in the middle/family section away from those ultras and you'll have no problem. Plus your view won't be obstructed by idiots waving flags.






Probably the two most likely teams to be relegated kicking off the weekend now in an awful game (though I would think that Freiburg and Hamburg are more likely to eventually end up at the bottom than Stuttgart). Pizarro probably getting his first start for Koln because Cordoba's still injured.

edit: Nvm Pizarro's not starting, Badstuber/Terodde are back for VFB, they should win this imo.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Nalens Oga said:


> Sit in the middle/family section away from those ultras and you'll have no problem. Plus your view won't be obstructed by idiots waving flags.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the two most likely teams to be relegated kicking off the weekend now in an awful game (though I would think that Freiburg and Hamburg are more likely to eventually end up at the bottom than Stuttgart). Pizarro probably getting his first start for Koln because Cordoba's still injured.
> 
> edit: Nvm Pizarro's not starting, Badstuber/Terodde are back for VFB, they should win this imo.





Nalens Oga said:


> Sit in the middle/family section away from those ultras and you'll have no problem. Plus your view won't be obstructed by idiots waving flags.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the two most likely teams to be relegated kicking off the weekend now in an awful game (though I would think that Freiburg and Hamburg are more likely to eventually end up at the bottom than Stuttgart). Pizarro probably getting his first start for Koln because Cordoba's still injured.
> 
> edit: Nvm Pizarro's not starting, Badstuber/Terodde are back for VFB, they should win this imo.




Why do you think Köln and Stuttgart/Freiburg are likely to get relegated? As of today there are alot of options, including Hannover, Bremen, Hamburg or Mainz. Way too early to say.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Because Koln play like shit and have nothing up front, they don't even have a proper backup to their shit up front plus they leak goals. Bittencourt's the only offensively threatening player on the whole team and they're unprepared for Bundesliga + Europe. Freiburg just don't have a very good roster but they could possibly survive. Hamburg have too many undeveloped or mediocre players and they've looked disorganized every time I saw them so they could get relegated but have enough to probably survive.

Bremen and Mainz have good enough squads or coaching to stay up, Bremen should start getting better results as they return to health as well. Though they look almost as offensively shit as Koln.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Wow Donis, almost got another, what a free-kick.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Nalens Oga said:


> Because Koln play like **** and have nothing up front, they don't even have a proper backup to their **** up front plus they leak goals. Bittencourt's the only offensively threatening player on the whole team and they're unprepared for Bundesliga + Europe. Freiburg just don't have a very good roster but they could possibly survive. Hamburg have too many undeveloped or mediocre players and they've looked disorganized every time I saw them so they could get relegated but have enough to probably survive.
> 
> Bremen and Mainz have good enough squads or coaching to stay up, Bremen should start getting better results as they return to health as well. Though they look almost as offensively **** as Koln.




I'm with you regarding Köln. They are bad. But we are very early in the season. Many things happen during a long season.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Well that was bullshit. After Stuttgart had like 20 chances to score from the counter but couldn't finish anything, Heintz scores from outside the box against the run of play.


----------



## Nalens Oga

I don't know what these idiots they hired at the VAR HQ are doing, refs have to keep using their own screen. That was a 50-50 challenge at best and clearly not a penalty, took one replay to see it and they spent like 5 minutes on the review.

Lmao what a celebration Akolo, throws his shirt, Stuttgart mascot joins in.


----------



## HajdukSplit

That VAR decision took way too long, first the conversation then he went to the screen, why didn't he go to the screen right away? Can't imagine him hearing much anyway with players yelling at him


----------



## Nalens Oga

They keep having to use the screen because I'm guessing the HQ is unsure and then just leaves it to the discretion of the referee. I don't know why they would be unsure either, it was such an easy decision to not give a penalty on that play. 

Anyways, Koln look pretty useless in defending the counter against lesser teams and they're too bad to do anything against the top teams...probably need to start looking into a coaching change because the problems can't be blamed simply on losing Modeste. Stuttgart could've had at least a couple more if they'd gotten better finishing. Probably need better fullbacks too, Aogo especially kept leaving the left flank open and Badstuber's not who you want trying to go wide and defend against wingers at this point.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Oof tight chess match in the Hertha - Schalke game but Haraguchi who's in for Leckie got himself a red card at the end of the 1st sadly so Hertha's down to 10. Schalke already have 2 strikers on.

The challenge should probably have been a yellow as well.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nice of Freiburg to lie down for Bavaria today, they didn't seem to want to do that against us a few weeks back when they injured our players and took a draw out of the match.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Yeah Schalke still look pretty toothless with possession, their goals came after going a man up then on a PK and the second on a counter-attack. Hertha probably played with more urgency in the second half despite the man down. Also their black away kits with the green on them are awful and don't go at all with the white socks/shirts.

Hertha should probably be okay, Leckie and Selke started on the bench and their next fixtures are Augsburg, Hamburg, Wolfsburg, and Bremen...all winnable.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I'm fine with Bosz rotating the squad constantly, but I don't think we can afford to do so at defensive midfield. Sahin does not give us anything close to what Weigl does. Weigl's been fit since the last international break. Why wouldn't he be able to play two matches in a week?

We'll see how it goes today, I'm not convinced Sahin won't struggle with Keita. Tuchel overused Weigl last season because he didn't have anyone who could replicate what Weigl does. I think Bosz just doesn't know the squad well enough, Sahin can't do what Weigl does. Sahin can play in Cup matches and occasional very easy league or Champions League matches, he's not a good fit against a good side.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Another last minute loss. Thank you very much.  ****


----------



## Nalens Oga

What a shame Werner's not fully fit, this Dortmund midfield they're putting out seems ripe for him to run through.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Aytekin today.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Pavs you wanna make a new thread?


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

god i f***ing hate living in this slow internet town


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

holy f***


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> god i ****ing hate living in this slow internet town




Sorry man, what happened? I get up for a second and the energy drinks score?


----------



## Deficient Mode

lol Sahin isn't nearly good enough under pressure.


----------



## Nalens Oga

I still can't believe that first goal because of Ilsanker. I know Klosterman is injured but I'm pretty sure Orban is healthy and should've started this regardless of the CL game. RB keep changing their defensive pairing constantly and it does them no favours.


----------



## samabam

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Nice of Freiburg to lie down for Bavaria today, they didn't seem to want to do that against us a few weeks back when they injured our players and took a draw out of the match.




you are very welcome 

It's always nice to see Dortmund fans complaining, that happens waaaay to seldom

Now, I could tell you about the difference between these matches but in the end, Dortmund is gonna Dortmund


----------



## Deficient Mode

Sokratis is gonna get busted one of these days. Only a matter of time.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Toljan is dreadful


----------



## Deficient Mode

lol Toljan

lol Sokratis


----------



## Nalens Oga

Lmao, buy a right-back.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

We have no right-back on this team, might as well try Guerreiro as a RB when he returns. Maybe it works? Until then, we might as well give Bartra a runout at RB.

Sokratis didn't look too good on that goal either.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Play a high line in an aggressive pressing battle

But also stock your central midfield with a 29 and a 30 year old when there are two younger, faster, and more talented options on the bench.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

This high line is not going well.


----------



## Nalens Oga

This is probably where you want Pulisic on the left side running at Ilsanker and Bernardo instead of Philipp.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nalens Oga said:


> This is probably where you want Pulisic on the left side running at Ilsanker and Bernardo instead of Philipp.




Need Dahoud first


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> This is probably where you want Pulisic on the left side running at Ilsanker and Bernardo instead of Philipp.




Second half. He's been beat up the last week by CONCACAF hacks, he has no business starting this match.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Forsberg on for Augustin please.

And Pulisic is 19, he'd be fine regardless of whether he started or came on as a sub.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> And Pulisic is 19, he'd be fine regardless of whether he started or came on as a sub.




He's carrying a calf injury. You must've not watched how physical Panama was against him, they were punching him off the ball, referee conveniently saw nothing every time.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Our defense is getting eviserated


----------



## Bures Elbow

Bruma

No brain, but insane skill and speed. If only he had a brain...ruined his career trajectory.

Gurreiro is back practicing but Dortmund is being smart and waiting until he's fully fit. Their defense looks slow and vulnerable.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bures Elbow said:


> Gurreiro is back practicing but Dortmund is being smart and waiting until he's fully fit. Their defense looks slow and vulnerable.




Do you think he could play right-back? Has he ever played it before?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Weigl and Pulisic coming on right away, might as well add Dahoud while we're at it.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Looks like a switch to a 3-5-2, lets see how this goes.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Wtf why did he take off Keita he was destroying the old geezers in the Dortmund midfield.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

No three man back line anymore 

Weigl gave that up so easily.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Thats not a penalty, Aytekin messed that one up, can't say I'm surprised.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Deficient Mode said:


> Sokratis is gonna get busted one of these days. Only a matter of time.




Yep. Bad giveaway by Weigl but he was surrounded by three players.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Should've taken out Castro


----------



## Nalens Oga

The Pulisic challenge was more of a penalty than Sokratis imo.

And I'm switching back to the BT Sport one the FS commentators keep talking abotu Pulisic and he hasn't even been on for 10 mins.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Did they review that? I wasn't sure. 

The Pulisic challenge was more of a penalty than the one they called.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

We actually don't need to buy any defenders. Just need a couple referees.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Ilsanker you dumbass. f***ing idiot should never start as a CB, that Keita substitution was so bad.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Should've taken out Castro




Should've started Dahoud, Weigl, and Bartra so you don't have to use all your subs just after the first half. Hopefully Bosz has seen enough of Sahin, Castro, and Sokratis for now.

lol Ilsanker.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Lol BvB. At home, really?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Thats a penalty.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> We actually don't need to buy any defenders. Just need a couple referees.




Oh, we definitely do. The team doesn't employ a professional right back (only half joking).


----------



## Nalens Oga

That's on the line at best, that's not a penalty, this ref was pissing me off last matchgame too.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Aytekin finally got a call right.


----------



## Deficient Mode

VAR loves Dortmund lol


----------



## Jersey Fresh

I'd imagine the RBL manager is making the same argument I would: If you're going to review that, why not the Pulisic one too?


----------



## Deficient Mode

You just knew Aytekin would find a way to even out the red card and penalty.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Augustin couldn't hold on to the ball, looks out of form, finally subbed him off.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Jersey Fresh said:


> I'd imagine the RBL manager is making the same argument I would: If you're going to review that, why not the Pulisic one too?




Why not review the phantom red and penalty on Sokratis?


----------



## Nalens Oga

Sabitzer hasn't strung together two good games this season.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Zagadou looks very uncomfortable outside. Should move this to a 3-3-3.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Why not review the phantom red and penalty on Sokratis?



I thought they did. I wasn't sure though, that's why I asked...

And we'd still be left with the same question, so not sure what your point is.


----------



## Nalens Oga

BT commentator: "takes a top referee for a game like this"


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Jersey Fresh said:


> I thought they did. I wasn't sure though, that's why I asked...
> 
> And we'd still be left with the same question, so not sure what your point is.




I didn't make the initial point, that was you. I'm just saying that I don't think its fair to make that complaint when they not only missed a penalty call on Dortmund earlier, but gave him a red card, so even if you reversed the penalties, we still also got a red card for it.

In the end, I think all these Aytekin mistakes have evened out. Its annoying to watch this guy try to ruin football matches, but its his specialty.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Orban f***ing finally, this is gonna force them into turtle mode though


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> BT commentator: "takes a top referee for a game like this"




DFB and UEFA don't disagree, which is frightening.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I hope Bosz learns from this lineup and game plan today.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Gotze....I know y'all like him but Kagawa brings so much more energy than him, you need more than a few nice passes and flick-ons from the midfield.

I wouldn't take too much away from that game because it was a mess, neither team could field their best and it was a mess. I'd probably go with Dortmund to finish ahead of RB just because I think they're both fairly equal but Bosz is a better coach and Hassenhuttl's team selections each week also leave me scratching my head. But they're improving more rapidly and probably beef up more at the next transfer window, a proper CM beside Keita would be huge.


----------



## Evilo

Bosz couldn't defend with Ajax. Hasn't shown much understanding of defending with BVB either. Sure, he's doing things right offensively, but I don't see him as a better coach right now.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

do we need a new thread or new board format doesnt need 1k max


----------



## Nalens Oga

Evilo said:


> Bosz couldn't defend with Ajax. Hasn't shown much understanding of defending with BVB either. Sure, he's doing things right offensively, but I don't see him as a better coach right now.




You don't have to beat Bayern or RB. His team just needs to get more points against the lesser teams and I'm more confident in BVB beating a Hertha or Hamburg than I am in RB who are inconsistent and unpredictable. They also do well in a game like this where they counter but struggle against a team like Gladbach. Dortmund absolutely bossed Gladbach.....RB had the bulk share of possession but really struggled with it compared to Dortmund and let Gladbach back into the game in the 2nd half.

I do think Dortmund's personnel are a bit better as well but again, that might just take 2-3 transfer windows to turn into RB's favour.


----------



## Evilo

I think BVB has better personnel, I agree.
Don't think they have the better coach however.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> You don't have to beat Bayern or RB. His team just needs to get more points against the lesser teams and I'm more confident in BVB beating a Hertha or Hamburg than I am in RB who are inconsistent and unpredictable. They also do well in a game like this where they counter but struggle against a team like Gladbach. Dortmund absolutely bossed Gladbach.....RB had the bulk share of possession but really struggled with it compared to Dortmund and let Gladbach back into the game in the 2nd half.
> 
> I do think Dortmund's personnel are a bit better as well but again, that might just take 2-3 transfer windows to turn into RB's favour.




If you want to win the league, you have to.

I agree with Evilo though. And if you are going to go with this approach, at least play some players who fit the system. Playing Sokratis, Sahin, Castro, Zagadou at LB with a high line is asking to give up goals. Those guys are all relatively slow. There are better options he's leaving on the bench. And if he insists on playing these players in this match because of the Champions League match in midweek, he's gotta change up the tactics, but this team was eventually going to be caught out like they were today.


----------



## Bon Esprit

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> do we need a new thread or new board format doesnt need 1k max



new thread is up.


----------



## Nalens Oga

You don't need a new one anymore....

Also cheeky Kimmich goal for anyone who didn't see it (I watched the Schalke game because I find Bayern dominating minnows to get boring after a while):


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nalens Oga said:


> Gotze....I know y'all like him but Kagawa brings so much more energy than him, you need more than a few nice passes and flick-ons from the midfield.




Götze was again Dortmund's best player when the rest of the team was lost. Hardly on him.



Nalens Oga said:


> Dortmund's personnel are a bit better as well but again, that might just take 2-3 transfer windows to turn into RB's favour.




It'll take longer than that.


----------



## ecemleafs

very nice goal from blazyczowski for wolfsburg. havent seen him play in years.


----------



## Nalens Oga

^ He's a sub now usually, lost his speed.

Anyways, Grifo was apparently healthy for Gladbach but they're starting the same 4-4-2 line-up they almost always do with Kramer/Zakaria in the middle. I could see this ending in 0 - 0 considering it's Bremen.


----------



## Nalens Oga

One of the better goals of the season by Stindl, nice first touch and turn then a hard shot from a bad angle into the net.

Forces Bremen to play less conservative...probably not.


----------



## cgf

Jojo with a beautiful turn to give Werder their first real chance at goal with the final kick of the match. Kid is so slick, shame Werder couldn't get him more of the ball after he came on.

Bet he's on the NT by the Euros if he's moved to a club where he'll play in europe before then...just sayin he'd be so sexy playing with Stindl, Kramer, Benes, Cuisance, Hazard & Zakaria.



maclean said:


> Question regarding German ticketing in general, perhaps for cgf in particular - I'm going to be in Berlin at the beginning of November and decided to check what games are on and discovered Union is playing St Pauli at home, which is probably as attractive a match-up as I could've hoped for. The question is, if I get a friend who lives there to get tickets, will he have no problem doing so? Here games like that are often classified as "risky" meaning the tickets only go through the teams' respective fan clubs and it can be next to impossible to get them without a membership. Or that's the case up until a certain point and then only a small number of tickets are released for general buying. Do you think any of that will be applicable here?




You'll be perfectly fine. I prefer standing between the middle of the pitch to the corner, away from Ultras, anyways, but as BE said there should be absolutely no tension between us & the St. Pauli fans as we are often on the same side of things when it comes to league decisions, i.e. the were the first club to support our 12:12 protests.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Yeah another pretty toothless performance by Bremen in attack, mostly shitty shots from the midfield, one sitter on a cross Delaney roofed (he was pretty average today), and one Eggestein shot in stoppage time. No presence up front, Belfodil didn't do anything, Bartels having to play more advanced then he's good for, and the delivery wouldn't be good enough even if the strikers were better.

I liked Hazard for Gladbach but overcomplicates it like usual, Stindl ran a lot like usual (definetely need his work rate for the NT as a backup at the World Cup), Wendt had a pretty good game, and Fabian Johnson was an offensive black hole but Traore looked good when he replaced him with 15 minutes left.


----------



## cgf

Getting Traore healthy again is huge. He has the class that Stindl, Raffael, and Hazard bring to the table and really helps when they need to cracked deep defending sides.

Werder still haven't figured out what to do in Grillitsch's absence in midfield. Though kruse's injury is a back breaker as well.

PS the good guys are back up to third in BuLi2


----------



## maclean

cgf said:


> You'll be perfectly fine. I prefer standing between the middle of the pitch to the corner, away from Ultras, anyways, but as BE said there should be absolutely no tension between us & the St. Pauli fans as we are often on the same side of things when it comes to league decisions, i.e. the were the first club to support our 12:12 protests.




Oh, I'm not worried about my safety, the question was really just more about the ease of getting tickets. Thanks!


----------



## Bon Esprit

So, next friday we'll see the showdown between Köln and Bremen. I hope Stöger wins to secure his job. I like this guy.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Seems like they're starting Bartra as the right-back with Schmezler starting again at LB, Dortmund?

RB have Werner still on the bench but Forsberg's back in, Bruma stays but moved to the right side, Poulsen's out.


----------



## cgf

maclean said:


> Oh, I'm not worried about my safety, the question was really just more about the ease of getting tickets. Thanks!




Gotcha, yeah you should be able to get tickets to that match. Never hurts to get them as early as you can, but there's plenty of space in the stadium since they finished the renovations.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Yeah a lot of people on the Dortmund sub seemed concerned that Bosz is tactically very incompetent. Seems to be a common view that he is poor defensively and cannot adjust during games. Worrying.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Bibi Steinhaus in the house.

Di Santos gets either subbed on or off every game and doesn't do much, they really need to bring through a younger striker and move him off.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Pretty toothless game by Mainz, fairly outclassed especially on the flanks where they defended like crap. Schalke look pretty organized, too bad about the lack of finishing or could've had a couple more goals.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Looks like Dortmund has started Weigl as a CB? With the same midfield as in the RB game last week and Bartra as a RB. Weird. I dunno why you wouldn't just have Zagadou in the middle instead of Weigl and let Weigl play the midfield.

Werner's making his first start in weeks for RB.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Wow Dortmund had nothing going till that goal in the box from Sahin.....and the cross from Bartra on the right side lol. 

Pretty chippy game, surprised there hasn't been any cards yet.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Idiotic Dortmund high line almost got them caught three times in the first half....one close offside, one Burki save, and one really bad touch by Rebic who was through.

Pulisic's delivery hasn't been good but he looks more active than Philipp.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Well-deserved equalizer for Frankfurt, Peter Bosz is an arrogant tactician.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

How long is Bosz going to last?


----------



## Just Win

What a great second half by Leverkusen!!!


----------



## Evilo

Yeah, didn't understand the sudden rise to stardom (according to some) on HFBoards of Bosz the minute he signed with BVB. He had clear drawbacks in his management, and they are still very much true.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Yeah so many holes on defence


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> Yeah, didn't understand the sudden rise to stardom (according to some) on HFBoards of Bosz the minute he signed with BVB. He had clear drawbacks in his management, and they are still very much true.




It didn't start the minute he signed with BVB. And honestly, I don't remember people hyping him that much at all.


----------



## Evilo

No way would he have received votes in the best manager polls until he signed with BVB.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> No way would he have received votes in the best manager polls until he signed with BVB.




I don't remember him getting much traction in the first 10 at all. Probably would have ended up around 20. Some people did watch and enjoy his Ajax team as well.


----------



## Evilo

Really?
Don't remember Genesio being talked about and Lyon was certainly fun to watch in the EL...


----------



## Nalens Oga

I probably should've watched the Simulucast today, Dortmund vs Eintracht game was meh but Bayer put 5 past Gladbach after giving up the first and Hannover came back late to beat Augsburg.


----------



## cgf

Yeah I couldn't watch, but that is brutal for BMG, go into the half up 1-0 and lose 1-5. F***ing Hecking...here's to hoping Tuchel takes over at some point.


----------



## Bon Esprit

LOL, usually Hannover drops points in the last minutes. But not this time. Füllkrug x2 

Btw. congrats, cgf, it's looking good for Union these days.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> LOL, usually Hannover drops points in the last minutes. But not this time. Füllkrug x2
> 
> Btw. congrats, cgf, it's looking good for Union these days.




Yeah, they are rolling right now. This new found depth is very odd for me as a fan of the eiserne, but it's so nice being able to rotate without the team losing its teeth.

PS happily found that this amazing assist had it's own youtube video and it needs to be seen, Marcel Halter, Fußballgott:


----------



## Evilo

Oh Hummels


----------



## Evilo

Deserved red. Would like to see all refs call those fouls that way. Didn't even try to get the ball, and can be extremely dangerous.


----------



## Nalens Oga

I don't think Bayern have had a single shot on goal after the first. Tolisso-Vidal just isn't a good midfield pairing.


----------



## Nalens Oga

It's very difficult to breakdown Hamburg like this when they all decide to defend. It's usually on the counter that they f*** up and leak goals.


----------



## Vipers31

Coman has been terrific since Jupp took over. Great to see and important for the club.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bosz makes some really strange decisions. That CB pairing was a disaster. Could've just started Zagadou and Bartra, Toljan at one of the full-back positions, and maybe Bruun-Larsen at the other or you could also have tried to play one of the wingers at full-back.

Frankfurt has done what most teams in the Bundesliga have done this year, taken advantage of a referee who doesn't want to give out cards. Willems and Gacinovic both were very lucky to not be sent off.

We were really bad though. We've struggled recently, and now Bayern has caught up in the league. We gotta start playing better. We can still contend for the league, but we have to play better.


----------



## Evilo

Vipers31 said:


> Coman has been terrific since Jupp took over. Great to see and important for the club.



Yeah I thought he has been great the last few games. Really makes a difference when he has the ball.
In fact, it seems sometimes like the only creative option is him, since Robben hasn't been stellar at all.
Still don't quite get the critics on him here that were way too harsh.

I thought Tolisso had a solid game (and of course the game winner), but apparently he's in Jupp's doghouse. Hopefully this goal will help his cause.
Commentators were saying Juup was fuming on the sideline with the lack of verticality. But this team was built by Guardiola and guys like Thiago or Vidal (whom I always thought was overrated) are born playing horizontal football. That's a tough adjustement to ask from this roster.


----------



## Vipers31

Evilo said:


> Yeah I thought he has been great the last few games. Really makes a difference when he has the ball.
> In fact, it seems sometimes like the only creative option is him, since Robben hasn't been stellar at all.
> Still don't quite get the critics on him here that were way too harsh.
> 
> I thought Tolisso had a solid game (and of course the game winner), but apparently he's in Jupp's doghouse. Hopefully this goal will help his cause.
> Commentators were saying Juup was fuming on the sideline with the lack of verticality. But this team was built by Guardiola and guys like Thiago or Vidal (whom I always thought was overrated) are born playing horizontal football. That's a tough adjustement to ask from this roster.




I agree with most, but disagree about Thiago. He was obviously brought up in Guardiola's game, but he has more vertical ability than most CMFs, IMO. It's a matter of whether the guys are running and opening up themselves or lanes for others. I don't think Tolisso is quite in a doghouse or anything; Heynckes is just getting to know him. He does like Vidal, though, and those two together isn't ideal. But we'll see. For now, we're just figuring out where everyone slots in, and with Tolisso and James, that's a bit of unknown, especially considering that Martinez is basically a mid-season acquisition for the midfield and seems to be becoming a key player for Jupp there again. But I'm optimistic that Jupp will find a way to get something good out of these guys, as well.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Hertha Berlin got Leckie back but a couple other injuries and couldn't beat Freiburg which is no good.

Kruse is already back for Bremen, played the last 10 minutes but still couldn't beat Koln. I hope both teams get relegated, they're pathetic at this point.


----------



## HajdukSplit

Koln and Bremen still without a win, watched a lot of that match, Koln were slightly better side but missed their chances, including an open net late in the match. Bremen did nothing until the 90th minute when a header was cleared off the line, Wonder if Stoger will go...however if he does it appears he won't be long without a job as the Austrian NT is looking to hire him


----------



## Nalens Oga

Wow you actually watched that match? I'm glad it was the early 730 one, I wouldn't wish that fixture on anyone.

Hoffenheim v Wolfsburg was alright, Didavi looked quite poor today but Mario G was back, came on late as a sub. Hoffenheim just got a bit lazy and lacked any urgency in their play once they got the goal and gave up the stoppage time corner so Wolfsburg's got 5 draws in 5 games under Schmidt now against some decent teams.

Also I know Bundesliga mascots are awful in general (my favourite being the Hamburg mascot with the hilariously giant ass) but the Wolfsburg mascot looks closer to a dirty grey rat than a wolf.


----------



## Deficient Mode

@cgf Congrats on your new job writing for Kicker


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Goetze has low key been brilliant this season. There have been very few games he's played in when he's not been one of the team's best players. 

I'd like to think he has a good chance to go back to the World Cup.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Goetze has low key been brilliant this season. There have been very few games he's played in when he's not been one of the team's best players.
> 
> I'd like to think he has a good chance to go back to the World Cup.




I half hope he doesn't. He's already had as much World Cup glory as he possibly could. Don't get me wrong, I still think he has a special brain for the game and excellent technique despite the people who yearn for a more dynamic runner, and he is one Germany's most talented players and should be in the team when in form. BVB need him rested and healthy far more than the German national team though. 

He and Bartra have been the team MVPs so far. Götze is often the clear best Dortmund player in matches against tricky opponents. Something that went back to the last year of his previous stint in Dortmund as well.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Jörg Schmadtke stepped down as manager of Köln. Now only Stöger is holding me back of disliking Köln with a passion again.


----------



## Bon Esprit

In other news Bayern lost Müller for 3-6 weeks due to injury. Also Hummels is questionable for the Leipzig series.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Jörg Schmadtke stepped down as manager of Köln. Now only Stöger is holding me back of disliking Köln with a passion again.




Stöger needs to move on as well. More than Schmadtke most likely.


----------



## Vipers31

Deficient Mode said:


> Stöger needs to move on as well. More than Schmadtke most likely.



If Stöger goes, I can't see Cologne going anywhere but relegation. (To be fair, even with him, I wouldn't want to bet against it, right now.) Unless they somehow got someone crazy like Tuchel, but that's not how Cologne works. Stöger goes and this club will be spiralling uncontrolled for another 3-5 years. Heck, if the wrong person ends up replacing Schmadtke, that alone might do it.


----------



## Nalens Oga

They're getting relegated with Stoger tbh.

I think the one bright side for them is that they actually create chances. They're pretty bad going back or defending the counter but they do create chances, they're just shit at finishing.

Bremen's more concerning, too negative and create very few chances. Good goaltending is the only reason they're not behind Koln imo and were able to get more draws.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> @cgf Congrats on your new job writing for Kicker




I actually had a friend who wrote for them for a little bit...unfortunately that friend had a touch of the Gump...

Though for once they are right. I've re-hashed that argument billions of times since Mario exploded onto the youth scene like Toni Kroos 2.0, but alongside Mo in front of Weigl is the perfect spot for him once they are all in proper shape and hit their top form


----------



## Bon Esprit

Vipers31 said:


> If Stöger goes, I can't see Cologne going anywhere but relegation. (To be fair, even with him, I wouldn't want to bet against it, right now.) Unless they somehow got someone crazy like Tuchel, but that's not how Cologne works. Stöger goes and this club will be spiralling uncontrolled for another 3-5 years. Heck, if the wrong person ends up replacing Schmadtke, that alone might do it.




The Schmadtke/Stöger duo gave Köln what they need most: Stability and structure. With one or two of them gone the club will turn in what they have always been known for: A circus. Just like Schalke in the good old days.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Need to see Sancho, Zagadou at CB, Isak, Larsen at RB and Reimann today. The last one might be a stretch, but still. Don't care what the rest of the lineup is.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Why doesn't Zagadou start at CB more often? He's been phenomenal, has been all season. Much prefer him to Sokratis. Laughable that he was on the bench at the weekend and Subotic started.

@Evilo, PSG is beyond dumb for letting him leave on a free.


----------



## cgf

So f*** Leverkusen, amirite?


----------



## Nalens Oga

Interesting that Schalke started basically their full starting line-up against the 3rd division side despite a Saturday game against Wolfsburg, Goretzka is basically the only one that got a rest.

Leverkusen also seem to have started basically their full starting line-up (Bellarabi was back in the squad as well, Bailey got a rest).


----------



## Evilo

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Why doesn't Zagadou start at CB more often? He's been phenomenal, has been all season. Much prefer him to Sokratis. Laughable that he was on the bench at the weekend and Subotic started.
> 
> @Evilo, PSG is beyond dumb for letting him leave on a free.



That's not how it works. Here in France, youngsters can agree or disagree to sign their first pro contract.
He disagreed, nothing PSG could do, except promising him playing time they couldn't promise him.
Same with Moussa Dembele, Coman, Doucouré and maybe soon contracted but not playing Callegari, Georgen, Edouard (like Augustin did).


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Evilo said:


> That's not how it works. Here in France, youngsters can agree or disagree to sign their first pro contract.
> He disagreed, nothing PSG could do, except promising him playing time they couldn't promise him.
> Same with Moussa Dembele, Coman, Doucouré and maybe soon contracted but not playing Callegari, Georgen, Edouard (like Augustin did).




Couldn't they have sold him like a year ago? Surely teams would've known about him then, and PSG probably would've known he wasn't going to stay.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> So f*** Leverkusen, amirite?




Your lot need to focus on promotion so you can f*** em up next year in revenge.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Your lot need to focus on promotion so you can f*** em up next year in revenge.




Key losses to BMG & the Eiserne down the stretch next season will get Vulturekusen relegated...with the two German U21 midfielders that the clubs went to war over this past window, Hartel & Neuhaus, scoring the winning goals in their respective matches matches...or so it's happened at least once in my dreams



Nalens Oga said:


> Interesting that Schalke started basically their full starting line-up against the 3rd division side despite a Saturday game against Wolfsburg, Goretzka is basically the only one that got a rest.
> 
> Leverkusen also seem to have started basically their full starting line-up (Bellarabi was back in the squad as well, Bailey got a rest).




I didn't get to watch any of the matches today, but the Meyer at the 6 experiment is still very new.* So that Schalke midfield needs as much PT as possible to improve their cohesion. Failing to take this chance to work on Embolo's confidence is my greatest gripe with Tedesco's lineup...especially since it's a little unfair of me to hold them not transitioning LeGo into the front line against him at this point.

As for Leverkusen they had to be able to have a lot of their bigger guns to be able to successfully press one of the best German possession sides outside of the first division. Even with so many of their bigger guns on the pitch, that match was 2-1 in the 90th minute.


*PS
When will coaches acknowledge that they need to listen to me more quickly? The last German 10 who's best position was actually the 10 was Mesut. Even the current giant creative midfield talents, Havertz & Abouchabaka, are likely going to end up better elsewhere...with Abouchabaka a primary candidate for a deeper, more Xavi-esque role, and Kai a wildcard who could make one hell of a forward in the Totti mold, or who could end up in a deeper midfield role.


----------



## Evilo

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Couldn't they have sold him like a year ago? Surely teams would've known about him then, and PSG probably would've known he wasn't going to stay.



You can't sell someone not under contract.


----------



## Evilo

Where PSG was wrong was to never give some glimpse of playing time to their youngsters. Instead of promising them some playing time they can't offer, they should promise them some loaning time and good salary, like Chelsea does. PSG has a nice academy, but apart from Kimpembe and Rabiot (who went through several academies) you have literaly no chance to play there.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Whata joke. It was clearly inside.


----------



## Vipers31

Bon Esprit said:


> Whata joke. It was clearly inside.



I don't think it was nearly as clear as the commentator made it sound. The main contact from the tackle might as well have been just outside, as well.

We did get at least a bit lucky, either way, to be fair.


----------



## Live in the Now

So I guess there's the Keita approach to being forced to stay at a club. Get red carded 3 times. It's not even November.


----------



## Nalens Oga

RB were better until the red card, unlucky to lose. They should win on Saturday if Werner is starting and plays a bit better and if Keita pulls his head out of his ass. Clearly the more dangerous team going forward and better organized.


----------



## Vipers31

Nalens Oga said:


> RB were better until the red card, unlucky to lose.



They were better until the red card, but they weren't unlucky to lose, considering the red wasn't unlucky, and they hung on for dear life in the second half and all though OT. Not to blame them, Keita handed them an incredibly tough hand, but that wasn't really unlucky.



> They should win on Saturday if Werner is starting and plays a bit better and if Keita pulls his head out of his ass. Clearly the more dangerous team going forward and better organized.



I doubt they'll win. Hopefully, James will be available, so that he can slot into the CAM role and Thiago can move back to CM, to break up the less than ideal Vidal/Tolisso pair there, which has been a problem again last night, mostly because of Vidal, IMO. He's great at pressing, but pretty bad at moving play against a pressing side.


----------



## Evilo

Keita's attitude is disgusting.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Evilo said:


> Keita's attitude is disgusting.




Keita was fouled over and over again in the first half. Especially by the little weazle Robben. Robben got away everytime and Keita got booked for exactly the same.


----------



## Vipers31

Bon Esprit said:


> Keita was fouled over and over again in the first half. Especially by the little weazle Robben. Robben got away everytime and Keita got booked for exactly the same.



Nope. He did get a few good knocks, but his two yellows - along with Vidal's for the non-PK - were easily the most yellow-worthy ones.


----------



## Evilo

Bon Esprit said:


> Keita was fouled over and over again in the first half. Especially by the little weazle Robben. Robben got away everytime and Keita got booked for exactly the same.



3 reds is digusting.


----------



## Savant

Bremen scored a goal!


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

This midfield rotation needs to stop. We don't have the players to rotate it.


----------



## Nalens Oga

What rotation lol he started Castro-Gotze-Sahin again, I think that's 3 Bundesliga games in a row. Castro might've been subbed on in the 2nd one, in this one he's been subbed off for Kagawa.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Lmao the Dortmund high-line strikes again, goodbye Zagadou

edit: And Hannover score from the free kick, and I thought the RB v Bayern game would be the highlight of the weekend.


----------



## Nalens Oga

They went down a man at around 55' and then tried countering a man down instead of using a patient build-up which isn't the best idea because you're just going to run out of energy. No delivery to Aubameyang at all and Phillip who I'm pretty sure was healthy was left off the bench completely to rest him so they had to use Schmezler/Guerrero as subs and neither has played more than 20 minutes in months I think. 

So that's no wins in 3 Bundesliga games, Hoffenheim I believe are also now on a run of no wins in the last 3 or 4 games, and Hamburg are fully in the relegation battle now with Hertha Berlin beating them without Leckie/Darida in the lineup.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> What rotation lol he started Castro-Gotze-Sahin again, I think that's 3 Bundesliga games in a row. Castro might've been subbed on in the 2nd one, in this one he's been subbed off for Kagawa.




He uses Weigl, Sahin, Castro, Dahoud, Goetze and Kagawa in some rotation. We can't afford to rotate at those positions, unless he starts playing Guerreiro in that position again. Dahoud has supposedly been "sick" for what must be weeks now, Weigl can't play because he only trained once after the last match even though others are allowed to, he keeps looking for reasons to play Sahin and Castro, two of the team's worst players. Why didn't Guerreiro start today instead of Castro?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

The other reason for the loss is that high line. These CB's keep getting caught out. It's hard to blame them though, that's a tough style for a CB to play, especially when they aren't that mobile. Bosz needs to adjust.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Who would have thought Hangover was in the 4th spot after 10 games. CL here we come...

No, no let's stay serious. Hannover now has 18 points. Definately more than I ever expected at this point of the season. The team has a good run. I'm happy so far.


----------



## Deficient Mode

This is all Sahin's fault


----------



## Vipers31

Solid start.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Oh for f***'s sake, Orban sent off after 13 minutes in an idiotic VAR decision. I just wanted a clean game for once.


----------



## Vipers31

Nalens Oga said:


> Oh for ****'s sake, Orban sent off after 13 minutes in an idiotic VAR decision. I just wanted a clean game for once.



There's nothing idiotic about this. Clear red.

EDIT: I guess it was idiotic they even had to use VAR on that one.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Arp with a goal for Hamburg. I read he's Germany's biggest talent.
Cool name: Fiete. Haven't heard that name for many years. Way to go, Fiete.


----------



## Vipers31

Lewa injured, and now Thiago is playing center forward.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Vipers31 said:


> Lewa injured, and now Thiago is playing center forward.




How is he doing there? I've always wondered how he'd play as a 9 but I'm too disgusted with the sport to watch rn.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Not really injured, it's a precautionary sub for a tight hamstring or something.

But it is ridiculous how a big team like that has no back-up striker unless you count Muller as one or that guy they signed from the 3rd division who's only played as a sub in the cup game. Surely they could've found a decent young 18-20 year old striker in France or Germany or Argentina if they don't have a German one lined up to play as a sub and be a potential Lewandowski replacement long-term.


----------



## Cassano

Nalens Oga said:


> Not really injured, it's a precautionary sub for a tight hamstring or something.
> 
> But it is ridiculous how a big team like that has no back-up striker unless you count Muller as one or that guy they signed from the 3rd division who's only played as a sub in the cup game. Surely they could've found a decent young 18-20 year old striker in France or Germany or Argentina if they don't have a German one lined up to play as a sub and be a potential Lewandowski replacement long-term.



Can they recall Gnabry?


----------



## Bon Esprit

All Might said:


> Can they recall Gnabry?



No, they can't. He is playing for Hoffenheim this season.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Müller is very good as a #9. And the squad planning was fine, Lewandowski never gets hurt. Neither does Müller for that matter.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> Arp with a goal for Hamburg. I read he's Germany's biggest talent.
> Cool name: Fiete. Haven't heard that name for many years. Way to go, Fiete.




He's the first 2000er to crack the BuLi, but I wouldn't say he's the biggest talent as that age group is loaded.

-RB's Elias Abouchabaka is generally seen as the biggest talent in that age group and is a brilliant playmaking 10, the kind of passer from that position that we haven't seen come through since Mesut & Toni.
-Werder's Jean-Manuel Mbom is my favorite of that age group and plays as a dynamic 8 or as an attacking midfielder; he can weave through traffic, makes incredibly quick decisions with the ball, and is generally almost impossible for opposing teams to press; like a more physically gifted Ilkay Gundogan.
-RB's Nicolas Kuhn is the 4th of this age group's super talents and is a lightening quick forward who can dribble his way through crowds like Maradona on a good day; I'm not as convinced in how he'll translate to the pros as I am Arp / Mbom / Abouchabaka, but his talent on the ball is electric, he seems really intelligent with the ball, and he's extremely quick.
-We also recently gave a passport to Bayern's (Cameroon born) Franck Evina, who's a dynamic young forward in the vein of Timo Werner.
-Wolfsburg's John Yeboah has really impressed me with the u17s, and done a lot to get me to start buying the comparisons to Leroy Sane that people have been throwing out there.
-And Bayern's Früchtl is already being prognosticated to be Neuer's successor for club & country

So there's a lot of extremely exciting kids from that age group & I struggle to call any one of them the biggest...and that's just from that age group as I rate Werner & Eggestein higher than I do Arp if we changed the discussion to all german u21 strikers.


----------



## Vipers31

Deficient Mode said:


> How is he doing there? I've always wondered how he'd play as a 9 but I'm too disgusted with the sport to watch rn.



We weren't doing much in the second half, and he was mostly rotating with Vidal and other guys going in up front. It wasn't very telling how he'd do there. 



Nalens Oga said:


> But it is ridiculous how a big team like that has no back-up striker unless you count Muller as one or that guy they signed from the 3rd division who's only played as a sub in the cup game. Surely they could've found a decent young 18-20 year old striker in France or Germany or Argentina if they don't have a German one lined up to play as a sub and be a potential Lewandowski replacement long-term.



Yeah, that was one part of our transfer window that I really didn't understand. I don't think they knew what they were going for, or how much they'd be willing to spend, and in the end, they had to rationalize doing nothing by saying "Lewa's never injured, anyway". When you say something like that, you just know it's going to come back to haunt you.


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> He's the first 2000er to crack the BuLi, but I wouldn't say he's the biggest talent as that age group is loaded.
> 
> -RB's Elias Abouchabaka is generally seen as the biggest talent in that age group and is a brilliant playmaking 10, the kind of passer from that position that we haven't seen come through since Mesut & Toni.
> -Werder's Jean-Manuel Mbom is my favorite of that age group and plays as a dynamic 8 or as an attacking midfielder; he can weave through traffic, makes incredibly quick decisions with the ball, and is generally almost impossible for opposing teams to press; like a more physically gifted Ilkay Gundogan.
> -RB's Nicolas Kuhn is the 4th of this age group's super talents and is a lightening quick forward who can dribble his way through crowds like Maradona on a good day; I'm not as convinced in how he'll translate to the pros as I am Arp / Mbom / Abouchabaka, but his talent on the ball is electric, he seems really intelligent with the ball, and he's extremely quick.
> -We also recently gave a passport to Bayern's (Cameroon born) Franck Evina, who's a dynamic young forward in the vein of Timo Werner.
> -Wolfsburg's John Yeboah has really impressed me with the u17s, and done a lot to get me to start buying the comparisons to Leroy Sane that people have been throwing out there.
> -And Bayern's Früchtl is already being prognosticated to be Neuer's successor for club & country
> 
> So there's a lot of extremely exciting kids from that age group & I struggle to call any one of them the biggest...and that's just from that age group as I rate Werner & Eggestein higher than I do Arp if we changed the discussion to all german u21 strikers.




I have to admit that I don't follow football that closely anymore. Today I'm more a casual fan. I didn't even know Hannover acquired Bebou from Düsseldorf. I have to change that.

Nonetheless I'm happy for Arp and HSV. It's always good to have a hometown talent on your team.


----------



## Bon Esprit

So Bremen even scored less goals than Köln this season. 3 in 10 games. No wins like Köln.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> I have to admit that I don't follow football that closely anymore. Today I'm more a casual fan. I didn't even know Hannover acquired Bebou from Düsseldorf. I have to change that.
> 
> Nonetheless I'm happy for Arp and HSV. It's always good to have a hometown talent on your team.




I'm that way with the NBA & NFL now-a-days. Football & Hockey are the only sports I still consider myself a diehard of. But with Union looking more & more like a 1st division side, and Gladbach's absurd collection of brilliant young midfield & CB talents behind Stindl & Hazard, it's hard for football not to excite me right now...especially if Gladbach could woo a young forward like Eggestein to succeed Raffael.


----------



## Vipers31

Bayern vs BVB in the next round of the DFB Pokal.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Bon Esprit said:


> So Bremen even scored less goals than Köln this season. 3 in 10 games. No wins like Köln.




Werder Bremen fire coach Nouri. That was expected. Another one bites the dust there.

http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...der-bremen-trennt-sich-von-trainer-nouri.html


----------



## Vipers31

It's more CL related, but I'll post it anyway - with Lewa ruled out for tomorrow's game vs. Celtic, Wintzheimer is on the roster. I hope he gets to started. He's been on a tear, and should get great support. Would be a damn interesting thing to watch.


----------



## Savant

Bon Esprit said:


> Werder Bremen fire coach Nouri. That was expected. Another one bites the dust there.
> 
> http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...der-bremen-trennt-sich-von-trainer-nouri.html




Whos next for the hot seat? Don’t think they can get a guy like Tuchel. Maybe Weinzierl?


----------



## Bon Esprit

Savant said:


> Whos next for the hot seat? Don’t think they can get a guy like Tuchel. Maybe Weinzierl?




No way Tuchel would do it. Neither would Weinzierl I'd guess. It's more likely a Slomka-like coach would bite. If Frings didn't coach Darmstadt he'd be my first choice.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Bon Esprit said:


> No way Tuchel would do it. Neither would Weinzierl I'd guess. It's more likely a Slomka-like coach would bite. If Frings didn't coach Darmstadt he'd be my first choice.




I have to correct that. Weinzierl indeed is in play.
In other Werder related news: They are in talks with Schaaf for some job in management and of course Bruno Labbadia as coach. Yeah, the good old days...


----------



## Deficient Mode

Yeah, Weinzierl going back to a club like Werder might make sense. After his Schalke tenure, I don't know if he can hope for much better.


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> Yeah, Weinzierl going back to a club like Werder might make sense. After his Schalke tenure, I don't know if he can hope for much better.




I think Weinzierl is by far the best choice


----------



## cgf

Weinzierl could help save them from relegation, but his style is the antithesis of Werder's ethos.


----------



## Nalens Oga

I would probably hate if Nagelsmann ever came to Bayern in terms of the line-up because of how much he rotates. I'm still not sure what the Hoffenheim best starting line-up is lol.


----------



## cgf

Nalens Oga said:


> I would probably hate if Nagelsmann ever came to Bayern in terms of the line-up because of how much he rotates. I'm still not sure what the Hoffenheim best starting line-up is lol.




Kramaric - Uth**
Zuber - Demirbay - Amiri - Kaderabek
Geiger/Grillitsch
Hubner - Vogt - Posch*

*Hoogma / Bicakcic / Neustadter / Akpoguma
** Wagner / Gnabry / Ochs​


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

cgf said:


> Kramaric - Uth**
> Zuber - Demirbay - Amiri - Kaderabek
> Geiger/Grillitsch
> Hubner - Vogt - Posch*
> 
> *Hoogma / Bicakcic / Neustadter / Akpoguma
> ** Wagner / Gnabry / Ochs​




Passlack


----------



## cgf

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Passlack




...is not a starter for them...


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

cgf said:


> ...is not a starter for them...




Thats not good then, do you think he'll make it back to Dortmund?


----------



## cgf

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Thats not good then, do you think he'll make it back to Dortmund?




Kaderabek is really good, not being able to beat him at 19 is no indictment.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Fantastic curled in goal by Rebic, I was thinking that Bremen were leaving that right side far too open based on how much space Willems kept getting.

Bremen does seem to lose a lot of battles/duels....the sign of a team that gets relegated because its players just aren't good enough.


----------



## Savant

Nalens Oga said:


> Fantastic curled in goal by Rebic, I was thinking that Bremen were leaving that right side far too open based on how much space Willems kept getting.
> 
> Bremen does seem to lose a lot of battles/duels....the sign of a team that gets relegated because its players just aren't good enough.





Bremen looks pretty good today though. Hradecky has had a lot of work to do. Kruse is rounding back into form too.


----------



## cgf

I can't help but wonder how Junuzovic would do in the Grillitsch role behind Delaney & whoever. He has the skill, passing radius, and quick thinking to give that whole Werder possession game proper structure.

Kruse
Kainz - Delaney - Bartels
Augustinsson - Junuzovic - Gebre Selassie
Bauer - Moisander - Veljkovic​


----------



## Deficient Mode

Who else is excited to watch Dortmund get thrashed today


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> Who else is excited to watch Dortmund get thrashed today



It would be way better for the league if Dortmund get their xxxx together and win. Bayern is not THAT mighty. For obvious reasons I can't support Leipzig today, but we need more than one good team in the Bundesliga.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Hassenhutl overdoing the rotation once again putting Keita/Kaml/Forsberg all on the bench and now RB is losing to Hanover. You can't afford to do this, you aren't Bayern, you have to play your best players.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

What has Dahoud done to not even make the bench? Castro starts instead. If not Dahoud, I'd like to see Guerreiro start.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> What has Dahoud done to not even make the bench? Castro starts instead. If not Dahoud, I'd like to see Guerreiro start.




Apparently Dahoud still has a neck problem. But yeah, doesn't excuse how Bosz has treated him before. Excessive deference to the veterans Sahin and Castro. Too bad. I fully expect a demolition today. At best Dortmund will score 2-3 goals and still lose.


----------



## cgf

Ito & Arp have given HSV some teeth as Fiete scores his 2nd goal in 125 first league minutes.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Ito & Arp have given HSV some teeth as Fiete scores his 2nd goal in 125 first league minutes.




He won't stay long at HSV at this rate.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> He won't stay long at HSV at this rate.




*fingers crossed*


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> *fingers crossed*




Transfer to Union Berlin next summer E5


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Transfer to Union Berlin next summer E5




Tuchel will convince Arp, Yeboah & Tah to join our inaugural BuLi1 campaign while Eggestein, Torunarigha, Mittelstädt & Passlack join BMG.

Hartel - Arp - Yeboah
Kreilach - Kroos/Gogia
Prömel/Kroos
Pedersen - Tah - Leistner - Trimmel
Busk

Polter, Skrzybski, Hedlund, Taz, Daube, Furstner, Maloney, Moser

--------------------------------------------------

Raffa/Hazard - Stindl/JoJo
Mittelstädt^ - Benes* - Kramer* - Passlack^
Zakaria
Veste - Torunarigha - Elvedi
Sommer

*Cuisance / Neuhaus
^Traore / Wendt / Johnson / Herrmann​


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I don't think we've touched the ball yet.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Leave Robben open... good strategy I like it


----------



## 555Upstairs

Robben and Dortmund, now that's what I call a love story.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

This midfield has been atrocious.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Tuchel will convince Arp, Yeboah & Tah to join our inaugural BuLi1 campaign while Eggestein, *Mittelstädt* & Passlack join BMG.




I think he'll join the Sabres first


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> I think he'll join the Sabres first




That's Mittelstadt, not Mittelstädt ;-)


----------



## Deficient Mode

555Upstairs said:


> Robben and Dortmund, now that's what I call a love story.




I'd call it more of a horror or serial murderer story. A bit too one-way to be love.


----------



## Nalens Oga

I know coaches don't usually get fired after losing to Bayern but the guy is playing the exact same tactics as in the Super Cup game against Bayern lol, he just doesn't learn.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

God we are a mess


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Having Castro in there is like being down to ten.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Honestly the worst thing that could happen is if we somehow win today, cause then Bosz will be convinced his tactics are the nuts cause they squeaked past bayern


----------



## cgf

That was terrible Yarmo


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

cgf said:


> That was terrible Yarmo




Remember we want Dortmund to lose


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> That's Mittelstadt, not Mittelstädt ;-)




Damn Anglicized spellings amirite



MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Remember we want Dortmund to lose




No we don't...


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

This is starting to look like that game vs Bayern that was 0-0 but crazy counters all game... when was that?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

That high line.


----------



## cgf

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Remember we want Dortmund to lose




Meh, is Watzke going to pick someone better than Bosz? I wouldn't want Favre to have to deal with that prick. If he comes back to germany I pray it's to Werder.



Deficient Mode said:


> Damn Anglicized spellings amirite




Americans, what can be done


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Lew almost beat us 5 v 1 lol


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bring in Guerrero if he can't continue, move Schmelzer to LB. Don't want to see Toljan.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Eugh poor Lewa, guy is worn down.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

If only we could get Pep

Man he would be fun


----------



## Nalens Oga

Peak Robbery would have destroyed this Dortmund team. Still, Coman's been so good.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Did anyone see that attempt from Castro?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

And they score, shocking.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Their deflected defensive effort hits the post, ours goes into our own net.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> And they score, shocking.




when...?


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

just now scored jesus u are ahead


----------



## Nalens Oga

Toprak isn't good enough to be a starter lol should've put Bartra in the middle.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

I think we are the Edmonton Oilers


----------



## Deficient Mode

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> If only we could get Pep
> 
> Man he would be fun




Gotta pay him like 40M a year though.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nalens Oga said:


> Toprak isn't good enough to be a starter lol should've put Bartra in the middle.




And who are they supposed to put at RB


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Deficient Mode said:


> Gotta pay him like 40M a year though.



he gets 40M a year? wtf


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> Toprak isn't good enough to be a starter lol should've put Bartra in the middle.




The problem is that there's no RB, so you have to put someone there. Bartra is halfway competent at RB. Sokratis is worse than Toprak, and Zagadou is suspended, although I don't think Bosz would play Zagadou, even if he wasn't suspended, but my starting pairing would be Bartra and Zagadou. If you have to play Bartra at RB, play Toprak and Zagadou.


----------



## cgf

Nalens Oga said:


> Toprak isn't good enough to be a starter lol should've put Bartra in the middle.




? Toprak is not BVB's problem


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Next game they should try Schmelzer or Guerreiro at RB, see if one of them can play there. Having one of the two on the bench makes no sense, if one can play RB.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> I think we are the Edmonton Oilers




Who's McDavid?


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

I think BVB is lacking some #HumanChemistry


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Who's McDavid?




Pulisic obviously


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

What Kagawa tries to do in two or three touches, Goetze does in one touch.


----------



## Deficient Mode

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Pulisic obviously




Merino is Taylor Hall


----------



## 555Upstairs

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> I think we are the Edmonton Oilers



Dunno man, I think Edmonton would actually manage to beat a team from Cyprus


----------



## Cassano

Sucks that the Bundesliga is all but wrapped up early November once again. What a shame, was really thinking Dortmund would bring it.


----------



## Deficient Mode

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> he gets 40M a year? wtf




He got 20M a year from Bayern; City must be paying him even more given their financial generosity; to lure him from City BVB would have to pay 40M probably.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

555Upstairs said:


> Dunno man, I think Edmonton would actually manage to beat a team from Cyprus




Didn't u see us win in 3v3 OT?


----------



## Deficient Mode

All Might said:


> Sucks that the Bundesliga is all but wrapped up early November once again. What a shame, was really thinking Dortmund would bring it.




There's still Leipzig. Second best team right now. I don't think Bayern is going back to where they were under Carlo though, so they'll probably win again.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Thiago's barely even had to do anything lol. And Aubameyang has no connection with his teammates.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Great first half from Dortmund, couldnt have asked for a better performance.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nalens Oga said:


> Thiago's barely even had to do anything lol. And Aubameyang has no connection with his teammates.




The Dortmund midfield is 1 player, so its not really much of a job. In fact, having Castro in there is like adding a man to the opposition's side.


----------



## Deficient Mode

I still love Bürki


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

And now they run into each other trying to tap the ball in the net.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

There is a lid on the goal right now.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Yarmo covering Auba in the box there, great D!


----------



## jacobhockey13

Burki's been fantastic. It was so painful to hear the announcer downplay his save in the first half on Lewa.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Kimmich always struggles with Pulisic. He's going to call in sick next time we play them.


----------



## jacobhockey13

Pulisic is mercurial.


----------



## jacobhockey13

Deficient Mode said:


> Merino is Taylor Hall




Merino is 16th and 33rd. Didn't know what they had til' they got rid of him.


----------



## cgf

Aubamayeng - Yarmo/Philipp
Sancho/Pulisic - Shinji/Mario - Pulisic/Yarmo
Weigl
Schmelzer - Toprak - Bartra - Toljan
Burki​


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Thats not a foul.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

This ref has missed a number of calls today.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Aubamayeng - Yarmo/Philipp
> Sancho/Pulisic - Shinji/Mario - Pulisic/Yarmo
> Weigl
> Schmelzer - Toprak - Bartra - Toljan
> Burki​




Understandable that you'd forget about Dahoud. Pretty soon I'll start to question if Dortmund even bought him.


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> Understandable that you'd forget about Dahoud. Pretty soon I'll start to question if Dortmund even bought him.



Should have went to Liverpool...

Rolls eyes


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Understandable that you'd forget about Dahoud. Pretty soon I'll start to question if Dortmund even bought him.




He's not on the bench is he?



Savant said:


> Should have went to Liverpool...
> 
> Rolls eyes




Like Xhaka, he's nothing without Kramer


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

We are the best!


----------



## Deficient Mode

Crazy touch by Lewa. But again, not quite sure that was what he intended.



Savant said:


> Should have went to Liverpool...
> 
> Rolls eyes




He wasn't good enough for Liverpool. He's no Keita.


----------



## 555Upstairs

Delete


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> He's not on the bench is he?
> 
> 
> 
> Like Xhaka, he's nothing without Kramer




Oh I see. Thought it was a general lineup, not today.


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> Crazy touch by Lewa. But again, not quite sure that was what he intended.
> 
> He wasn't good enough for Liverpool. He's no Keita.



Liverpool was a year too early on him and Monchengladbach preferred to lose him to Dortmund for less money. What can you do about that. I think Liverpool learned from that to help secure Keita though.


----------



## jacobhockey13

Dortmund are sorely missing Guerriero


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Oh I see. Thought it was a general lineup, not today.




Nah, my ideal lineup for BVB is still:

Reus/Auba - Auba/Yarmo
Raphael - Götze - Dahoud - Pulisic
Weigl
Zagadou* - Toprak - Bartra
Burki

Isak, Philipp, Reus/Yarmo, Sancho, Shinji, Sahin, Castro, Toljan, Schmelzer*, Sokratis*
--------------------------
Reus - Auba - Yarmo
Raphael - Weigl - Dahoud - Pulisic
Zagadou* - Toprak - Bartra
Burki

Isak, Philipp, Sancho, Kagawa, Götze Sahin, Castro, Toljan, Schmelzer*, Sokratis*
​With Raphael also playing next to Mo ahead of Weigl with Schmelle taking his spot on the left in the first formation.
​


Savant said:


> Liverpool was a year too early on him and Monchengladbach preferred to lose him to Dortmund for less money. What can you do about that. I think Liverpool learned from that to help secure Keita though.




The coaches also played an impact. Mo was really excited to work with Tuchel, and it would've been better for his development than playing Klopp-ball.


----------



## Cassano

How has a guy like Castro made so many appearances for BvB? He's trash.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

All Might said:


> How has a guy like Castro made so many appearances for BvB? He's trash.




He's a "veteran", man.


----------



## Cassano

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> He's a "veteran", man.



Ah, so he's the Flamini of BvB. Good to know.


----------



## Deficient Mode

All Might said:


> How has a guy like Castro made so many appearances for BvB? He's trash.




It's partly Bosz's fault too. Midfield has been a tactical disaster this year. Can't break up attacks, not used enough in buildup. Castro shouldn't be starting, but it's not entirely his fault.


----------



## cgf

Castro is a nifty two-way winger and is passable in the midfield against weaker sides, he also used to play FB and coaches love his work in practice. I think he'd be perfectly fine as Pulisic's backup at RWB, but Bosz doesn't believe in the back three.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bartra!


----------



## jacobhockey13

Castro's a fine backup to Guerriero. Everything Castro does Raph does better.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

jacobhockey13 said:


> Castro's a fine backup to Guerriero. Everything Castro does Raph does better.




Dahoud


----------



## jacobhockey13

If someone taught Pulisic how to cross (admittedly he wasn't bad at it today), he would be on Dembele's level.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Has Yarmalenko played the full 90 yet? He's always subbed off whenever I watch him. Him and Pulisic were very good, Sule didn't put a foot wrong for Bayern either.

Ironic they gave up their goal after bringing on Rudy/Vidal, I would have thought that at least one of those two starts to give them a good cushion in the backline but didn't matter either way, they played far better regardless of line-up and health.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Sule is great, what a player that lad is. 

Good time to get a new manager in, isn't that Tuchel guy out of work?


----------



## Nalens Oga




----------



## Deficient Mode

jacobhockey13 said:


> If someone taught Pulisic how to cross (admittedly he wasn't bad at it today), he would be on Dembele's level.




Eh, I think there's a little more to it. Dembele in general is a clearly better passer. Probably the biggest difference in quality between the two of them. Different dribbling styles too.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

He's been good the last few weeks, but has had some really bad luck with getting goals and assists, which is symptomatic of the whole team right now. The month prior he was absolute shit, but he's regaining form.


----------



## jacobhockey13

Deficient Mode said:


> Eh, I think there's a little more to it. Dembele in general is a clearly better passer. Probably the biggest difference in quality between the two of them. Different dribbling styles too.




No, you're right. Pulisic could have a similar-type impact if he could provide good service with talismanic performances as Dembele did, but, Dembele would still clearly be the better player. Dembele's is world's ahead at shooting/finishing than Pulisic, Pulisic has a very good weak foot–which he had to use on his offside today–but Dembele is two-footed, and as quick as Pulisic is–Dembele is "lightening personified".


----------



## Bon Esprit

Arp with another goal for HSV.
Köln with another loss. Sooner or lateri they'll fire Stöger.
I'm officially on the Holstein Kiel bandwagon. First ever team from Schleswig-Holstein to play in the Bundesliga (still a long way to go).


----------



## Nalens Oga

Berlin's defence really isn't up to par against good players like Origi and Didavi.

Also, this stupid league has far too many soft free kicks and fouls given.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> Arp with another goal for HSV.
> Köln with another loss. Sooner or lateri they'll fire Stöger.
> I'm officially on the Holstein Kiel bandwagon. First ever team from Schleswig-Holstein to play in the Bundesliga (still a long way to go).




Kiel have a lot of talents on loan, so I worry they'll fall apart next season whether they get a promotion spot or not.

And Arp is off to a great start, as he should've scored a second in that match. I still think Eggestein & Werner have higher ceilings, but Arp could well be a NT starter for us in the 2020s.


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> Kiel have a lot of talents on loan, so I worry they'll fall apart next season whether they get a promotion spot or not.
> 
> And Arp is off to a great start, as he should've scored a second in that match. I still think Eggestein & Werner have higher ceilings, but Arp could well be a NT starter for us in the 2020s.



Kiel is not the location to play top-level football in Germany. Just like Lübeck. But since no team from this state ever played in the Bundesliga I will watch them closely. Union in first place, Kiel second and Düsseldorf third. Deal? Just for the history books.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> Kiel is not the location to play top-level football in Germany. Just like Lübeck. But since no team from this state ever played in the Bundesliga I will watch them closely. Union in first place, Kiel second and Düsseldorf third. Would this be okay with you?




Fair enough, I am certainly enjoying their success...though I'd root for Nürnberg over Düsseldorf; as they have a lot more of their own young talents leading the way while Düsseldorf rely on BMG's Neuhaus.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Newest episode of Talking Fussball podcast

http://media.blubrry.com/talkingfussball/p/redduffman.com/2017-11-07_MD11_Review_IntlBreak.mp3


----------



## Deficient Mode

Dortmund's chief scout Sven Mislintat is about to be appointed as the same role at Arsenal

So glad Watzke sided with him over Tuchel.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Dortmund's chief scout Sven Mislintat is about to be appointed as the same role at Arsenal
> 
> So glad Watzke sided with him over Tuchel.




wow that's huge news. Have to wonder how much longer Watzke will be able to keep BVB a CL caliber team now that the brains behind their transfers is gone. Crazy how fast everything has gone to s*** for BVB.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> wow that's huge news. Have to wonder how much longer Watzke will be able to keep BVB a CL caliber team now that the brains behind their transfers is gone. Crazy how fast everything has gone to s*** for BVB.




Even if he goes, they should be ok recruiting-wise as long as the rest of the scouts stay.

It's rather other aspects of the club (Watzke, public ownership, Bosz) that make me fear a continued decline.


----------



## Cassano

Deficient Mode said:


> Dortmund's chief scout Sven Mislintat is about to be appointed as the same role at Arsenal
> 
> So glad Watzke sided with him over Tuchel.



I saw this but it was from an ESPNFC article. Is this credible?


----------



## Deficient Mode

All Might said:


> I saw this but it was from an ESPNFC article. Is this credible?




It's credible. Kicker says that talks are in an advanced stage. I bet BVB will fight to keep him though. They have in the past.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Even if he goes, they should be ok recruiting-wise as long as the rest of the scouts stay.
> 
> It's rather other aspects of the club (Watzke, public ownership, Bosz) that make me fear a continued decline.




I'm assuming some of those scouts will leave with him, and without the near gladbach-ian level of scouting I expect Watzke & the rest to tank that team over time. So that by the 2020s I'm not sure you'll still be an annual CL team.


----------



## mario01

love der panzerhttp://:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:/isna/4/o.png


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> I'm assuming some of those scouts will leave with him, and without the near gladbach-ian level of scouting I expect Watzke & the rest to tank that team over time. So that by the 2020s I'm not sure you'll still be an annual CL team.




I don't know if the scouts are loyal to him or to the club. I'd hope it's the latter. It'd be a mistake if the club also allowed his subordinate scouts to leave with him.


----------



## cgf

I'm just hoping that if this happens, Arsenal gets Tuchel to replace Wenger


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> I'm just hoping that if this happens, Arsenal gets Tuchel to replace Wenger




Sorry, but he's going to Union Berlin.


----------



## Cassano

cgf said:


> I'm just hoping that if this happens, Arsenal gets Tuchel to replace Wenger



Wenger recently revealed he'll never leave Arsenal, so there's no chance. 

He's gonna die with the club.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Sorry, but he's going to Union Berlin.




Nah, he's too big a sellout to come to Union before we've started winning titles


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I saw that news yesterday. 

Thats kind of disastrous. I don't think the rest of the club is dumb, I think we'll still make good signings, but there is no way its not a big loss to the club when you lose when one of the best scouts in the world.

Watzke needs to go. He's as much of a problem as anyone, even if Bosz himself is a big problem.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Aubameyang got scratched from roster vs. Stuttgart.
http://www.focus.de/sport/fussball/...beim-vfb-stuttgart-gestrichen_id_7857490.html


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Disciplinary reasons, just what the side needed!!! Could try Philipp or Isak up top, I'd be okay with either choice, just no Schurrle, please.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Hmmmm sounds fishy to me

Could expedite Bosz's departure if they don't win tomorrow.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> Hmmmm sounds fishy to me
> 
> Could expedite Bosz's departure if they don't win tomorrow.



Auba doesn't score. And it's not the first time he got scrateched. Nothing to see here


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Auba doesn't score. And it's not the first time he got scrateched. Nothing to see here




Last time the "disciplinary reasons" were fully disclosed and obviously worthy of a suspension. The ambiguity here is suspicious.

He's not scoring lately because he's not the best fit in Bosz's 4-3-3, which is partly his fault but also another strike against Bosz.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich




----------



## Deficient Mode

LMAO that goal


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

That was all on Buerki, Bartra called for it, Buerki comes charging out, how is Bartra supposed to know that his keeper won't be in the goal after he clearly made it known he's taking it?

#Watzkeout


----------



## ecemleafs

Where's pulisic?


----------



## East Coast Bias

ecemleafs said:


> Where's pulisic?




Injured. Just reported as a muscle injury.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Schurrle is a brutal footballer, why is he taking penalties? 

Philipp does nothing but score, saved the side there.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Buerki again, that looked bad on first account, didn't look a particularly good chance, second account looked even worse. Buerki needed to save that.

I don't completely blame him, 9 of the 10 field players were in the other half, so its the same problem as usual with the defending, but he's had way too many high profile errors this season.


----------



## Evilo

Same old really. Slow D, bad goaltending.
Story of the season so far.

Didn't someone rank Burki in the top 10 goalies a couple of weeks ago?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Who's this new player coming on? Never heard of him. Dawho?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Evilo said:


> Didn't someone rank Burki in the top 10 goalies a couple of weeks ago?




He's top 20, but he is having a bad season.


----------



## Evilo

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> He's top 20, but he is having a bad season.



He'd be lucky to be top 10 in the BL right now.
Embarrassing.


----------



## YNWA14

I wonder if Dortmund shouldn't try a diamond.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Evilo said:


> He'd be lucky to be top 10 in the BL right now.
> Embarrassing.




Agreed, but I don't think its fair to judge these things entirely on who's doing the best in a three month span.


----------



## HajdukSplit

Scary thing for Dortmund is Stuttgart looks more likely to score the third than them equalizing, like the look of the Japanese striker on Stuttgart


----------



## Bon Esprit

Evilo said:


> He'd be lucky to be top 10 in the BL right now.
> Embarrassing.



Roman Bürki is one of the worst goalies in the league. Re-signing him was another brain-fart by BvB management.
No goalie cost more points than him this season.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Too bad Stuttgart have bad finishing otherwise....

I was saying that the international break is the perfect time to fire Bosz and have time to look for a replacement...now they have to scramble. People were arguing that the loss to Bayern is inevitable and you don't fire a manager after losing to Bayern but it was apparent that he needed to go, I dunno why they've stuck with him.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bosz needs to leave.


----------



## John Pedro

Damn that Stuttgart jersey is so ugly.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

John Pedro said:


> Damn that Stuttgart jersey is so ugly.








all I see is beauty. lol


----------



## John Pedro

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> all I see is beauty. lol




that one is pretty sweet, indeed. Today they were wearing an all-black kit, even the club's badge and sponsors are black. ugh. Hate when clubs change the color of their badge.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Yeah that Stuttgart first kit is a thing of beauty. Nothing too flashy, fitting sponsor and a very nice collar.



John Pedro said:


> that one is pretty sweet, indeed. Today they were wearing an all-black kit, even the club's badge and sponsors are black. ugh. Hate when clubs change the color of their badge.




Like Arsenal's black and pink third kit this season.


----------



## cgf

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Schurrle is a brutal footballer, why is he taking penalties?
> 
> *Philipp does nothing but score, saved the side there.*




Shoulda followed in Kruse & Stindl's footsteps at the cooler Borussia...



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Who's this new player coming on? Never heard of him. Dawho?




It's ok, you don't need to. Just some kid following in Kramer's footsteps ;-)


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

cgf said:


> Shoulda followed in Kruse & Stindl's footsteps at the cooler Borussia...
> 
> 
> 
> It's ok, you don't need to. Just some kid following in Kramer's footsteps ;-)




Dahoud looked so good when he came on. He sprung the offense the first 10 minutes a lot. So much better than Castro or Kagawa. 

Seriously, Bosz makes no sense to me. If not Dahoud, it should be Guerreiro, yet for him its Castro and Kagawa.


----------



## theprofessor

Bayern rolling today. Jupp has had a profound effect on team chemistry.


----------



## Evilo

Yep, some people here that kept on downplaying Juup to blow Guardiola's horn should take a look at what's going on right now. There are different ways to being effective, and keeping possession at all cost isn't the only one. Sometimes it can even be not-so-effective again big quick talents.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> Yep, some people here that kept on downplaying Juup to blow Guardiola's horn should take a look at what's going on right now. There are different ways to being effective, and keeping possession at all cost isn't the only one. Sometimes it can even be not-so-effective again big quick talents.




What does this have to do with Guardiola lol


----------



## Evilo

I wonder 
You should read some of the posts written here.


----------



## cgf

The cooler team moves ahead in the race of the Borussia's with their thumping 4-2 win over Hertha today...they were up 3-0 within 20 minutes in a match where Stindl & Hazard scored & Raffa snagged a brace.




Evilo said:


> Yep, some people here that kept on downplaying Juup to blow Guardiola's horn should take a look at what's going on right now. There are different ways to being effective, and keeping possession at all cost isn't the only one. Sometimes it can even be not-so-effective again big quick talents.




Jupp's Bayern was excellent and had a legendary season. Pep's Bayern was never before seen in germany. Jupp's a great coach, but Pep was still an upgrade on him, and Nagelsmann will be an upgrade on him next season...even if Ancelotti was a major downgrade from any of the three despite his pedigree & resumé trumping all but Pep's.



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Dahoud looked so good when he came on. He sprung the offense the first 10 minutes a lot. So much better than Castro or Kagawa.
> 
> Seriously, Bosz makes no sense to me. If not Dahoud, it should be Guerreiro, yet for him its Castro and Kagawa.




If Bosz wasn't an idiot Mo would be building his case to be BVB's best player. His stamina is literally the only significant shortcoming to his game, and that is a much more manageable/improvable than Ilkay's healthy was. Some people don't yet understand why I'm so firm in my opinion that Dahoud should start next to Kroos & Ozil in Russia, if Ilkay isn't fit...but sooner or later, they will. I still remember the first time I watched him playing with BMG's senior squad in a summer friendly as an 18 year old. The elegance & creativity were blatant even then that I knew that the team would survive Xhaka's eventual departure.

Mo is just so silky smooth with the ball, that trying to press him is simply begging to be ripped open; and giving him time or space through which to weave forward is even more suicidal. Mentally & technically he's the perfect 8 for the modern game. A shame he doesn't have LeGo or Pogba's physical gifts as well, cause we'd be talking about Dahoud v Netzer for the title of Germany's greatest ever midfielder by the end of his career if he did.

Raphael would be my second choice for the 8 as well, but there's no way to justify not starting Dahoud whenever he's healthy...even if he ends up running out of gas & needing to be subbed out with regularity.



Deficient Mode said:


> What does this have to do with Guardiola lol




I think I get it. Jupp is doing much better than Carlo did. And Carlo had a good run with PSG, so obviously he's the best. Ergo if Jupp is better than the best, he must be better than Pep, because Pep is garbage who destroyed a treble winner by making them even better & more dominant. If they didn't run away with the BuLi so easily they would've had the fortitude to continue winning treble after treble.

What do I win?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> I wonder
> You should read some of the posts written here.




Guardiola never had issues in the Bundesliga at all. I know you hate so-called hipsters, but you're really reaching here. I'd wait to rehash this line if Jupp wins them the CL again.

I don't think anyone here advocates possession at all costs. Some people are pretty extreme in their fun-at-all-costs advocacy, but that's it.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> I think I get it. Jupp is doing much better than Carlo did. And Carlo had a good run with PSG, so obviously he's the best. Ergo* if Jupp is better than the best*, he must be better than Pep, because Pep is garbage who destroyed a treble winner by making them even better & more dominant. If they didn't run away with the BuLi so easily they would've had the fortitude to continue winning treble after treble.
> 
> What do I win?




Better than the coach anointed best in the world by this very forum???


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Better than the coach anointed best in the world by this very forum???




I still can't believe how hilarious those polls turned out 

Speaking of the hard to believe; EL participant Köln, is 12 games into the season and has 2 points total. 0-10-2 is an utterly unreal start to the season, even with Modeste's goals gone to china and the EL placing extra strain on the limited rheinland club.


----------



## Evilo

LOL. You guys are fun.
Let's remember who wrote this :
"Heynckes is never too humiliated to take the Bayern job short term or when his successor is already in place. *Feeling optimistic for this season*."
"*Watching him fail with Bayern, would settle all of the debates with Jogi apologists*."

FUN, FUN, FUN.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> LOL. You guys are fun.
> Let's remember who wrote this :
> "Heynckes is never too humiliated to take the Bayern job short term or when his successor is already in place. *Feeling optimistic for this season*."
> "*Watching him fail with Bayern, would settle all of the debates with Jogi apologists*."
> 
> FUN, FUN, FUN.




Now you've lost me. Maybe it's cause I'm just not having enough fun, fun, fun; but what the f*** does Jogi Loew have to do with this?

Or are you just trying to name well known coaches that Jupp is better than? If so I can add to that list for you: Conte, Mourinho, Allegri, van Gaal, Wenger, Emery...and Bielsa


----------



## Evilo

The thread was about Juup's hiring. Thought you post had to do with HIS failing. Now I get your point. My apologies.

Still has nothing to do with Conte who I didn't vote for. nor the others you listed BTW


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> The thread was about Juup's hiring. Thought you post had to do with HIS failing. Now I get your point. My apologies.
> 
> Still has nothing to do with Conte who I didn't vote for. nor the others you listed BTW




No worries  I was just being a dick since you came in here all aggro and mis-interpreted my post that you quoted; so I couldn't help myself.

I hold Jupp in extremely high regards...even if I have argued that him leaving after the Treble season has caused a lot of people to forget about all of the failures that lead up to that final triumph...just not in as high of regards as I do Pep / Favre / Tuchel / Nagelsmann. I'd take any of those 4 for Union, Gladbach or the NT over any other coach in the sport if I had the power to make it happen. Favre would take over my Eiserne tomorrow to push them into one of the auto-promotion spots and out of the playoff spot they currently occupy...while also molding Hartel into his new Raffael. Tuchel would walk into the BMG lockerroom after today's big win that moved them ahead of Dortmund & inform Hecking that his service have been much appreciated, but are no longer necessary. And Nagelsmann would get this second golden generation to start winning the titles on titles on titles that they were supposed to start racking up for the NT, before Jogi sh*t the bed in France. While Pep developed more & more german kids in Manchester...Geiger / Maier / Meyer; Werner & Tah to the Pep-academy please. Maybe Draxler to?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> LOL. You guys are fun.
> Let's remember who wrote this :
> "Heynckes is never too humiliated to take the Bayern job short term or when his successor is already in place. *Feeling optimistic for this season*."
> "*Watching him fail with Bayern, would settle all of the debates with Jogi apologists*."
> 
> FUN, FUN, FUN.




I also said he could easily turn Bayern around back to first place even before Dortmund collapsed into a tire fire. Nor is optimism about another team's chances a judgment of the coach's ability. Between him, Tuchel, and Nagelsmann, pretty easy choice for a fan of an opposing team.

Again, that has nothing to do with Guardiola.

Not gonna bother looking for your embarrassing posts from a couple months ago but we both know what they are.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Costly draw for Bayer, couple injuries and a suspension. Hassenhutl continues to in my opinion, cost his team a bit with his over-rotation and the team not getting chemistry right. Keita also no longer looks like the same player so that doens't help.


----------



## Evilo

Deficient Mode said:


> I also said he could easily turn Bayern around back to first place even before Dortmund collapsed into a tire fire. Nor is optimism about another team's chances a judgment of the coach's ability. Between him, Tuchel, and Nagelsmann, pretty easy choice for a fan of an opposing team.
> 
> Again, that has nothing to do with Guardiola.
> 
> Not gonna bother looking for your embarrassing posts from a couple months ago but we both know what they are.



Please tell me about them.
It has everything to do with Guardiola since you downplayed Juup for years during the Pep era when people said he couldn't do better than a CL semi with a better team than Juup's.
Looks like he has quickly turned Bayern around. If he wins the CL (which is not that far fetched), what's going to happen to all the Pep hipsters across this board? Mass suicide?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> Please tell me about them.
> It has everything to do with Guardiola since you downplayed Juup for years during the Pep era when people said he couldn't do better than a CL semi with a better team than Juup's.
> Looks like he has quickly turned Bayern around. If he wins the CL (which is not that far fetched), what's going to happen to all the Pep hipsters across this board? Mass suicide?




How is your "Lille will be the most exciting team in football" prediction working out.

With a better team than Jupp's. ROFL.

It was always the footballing conservatives who pointed to Jupp's last year as proof of Pep's failure. They were the people who dogmatically dismissed Guardiola's style as boring, foreign, etc. Honestly the people who prefer Pep's teams care far less about Jupp than the reverse, because they're not a bunch of disgruntled and/or xenophobic old men. No one hates Jupp or hates the hype around him. We merely respond to the people who pretend Jupp was some ethereal coach when his Bayern tenure was anything but rosy up until the last year, and some of us remember how they played before.

Suicide. Haha very funny. I'm sure Guardiola fans are in complete misery with the year he's having.


----------



## Evilo

Ah, predictions?
Yeah, Lille hasn't worked out too well so far, but they have two wins in a row, and they'll come around, I'm not worried. Young teams tend to take some time to learn and gel.

It's too bad you think people who don't like Pep's style are disgruntled or xenophobic. Arguments can be made and heard, whether you agree or not. Fact is you dismissed Juup's coaching when you defended Pep. And weirdly enough, you did EXACTLY the same this year when he was named, causing your "optimism" for your so well coached BVB.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> It's too bad you think people who don't like Pep's style are disgruntled or xenophobic. Arguments can be made and heard, whether you agree or not. Fact is you dismissed Juup's coaching when you defended Pep. And weirdly enough, you did EXACTLY the same this year when he was named, causing your "optimism" for your so well coached BVB.




If there's an argument to be made, you'll certainly make it, whether you believe it or not. Never knew you to care about Jupp at all until it gave you a chance to remind the hipsters they're wrong.

I did no such thing. Optimism to me means Dortmund have more than a 10% chance of winning the title - as I've stated before that Bayern has a 90% chance of winning every year now. But yeah, I guess that's dismissive of Jupp.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> Please tell me about them.
> It has everything to do with Guardiola since you downplayed Juup for years during the Pep era when people said he couldn't do better than a CL semi with a better team than Juup's.
> Looks like he has quickly turned Bayern around. If he wins the CL (which is not that far fetched), *what's going to happen to all the Pep hipsters across this board?* Mass suicide?




I'll begrudgingly celebrate that a BuLi team has lifted the saladbowl in a season where the league's coefficient has taken one hell of a beating. While celebrating that the Spanish giants have been weak (by their standards) this season...Real due to age, Barca due to their own management...and doing my best to pretend like Bayern wasn't the BuLi team that won it because f*** Bayern unless they're playing a non-german team or BFC Dynamo.

Again I gave Jupp a lot of love very early in that treble season when it became clear that Bayern was on a mission from god after the vize-treble the year before. And I have to tip my hat to how well he is able to come in after a difficult tactician who lays the possession foundation for the team, so that Jupp can just focus on the pressing and man-management (where he is spectacular).

That said; Bayern became much more consistent & dominant after Jupp was replaced with Guardiola; despite errors on the transfer front weakening the roster; the spanish giants loading up in response to the thrashings they took from Bayern & Dortmund; Robbery breaking down; and the strongest Dortmund team since their return from Bankruptcy. Jupp won the league once, losing to weaker Dortmund teams than the one pep was able to leave in the dust.

And then there's the fact that the influence that that team has had over the way we play football in germany will ring on for ages and laid the blueprint for Jogi to not f*** up in Rio.


----------



## les Habs

Evilo said:


> It's too bad you think people who don't like Pep's style are disgruntled or xenophobic. Arguments can be made and heard, whether you agree or not. Fact is you dismissed Juup's coaching when you defended Pep. And weirdly enough, you did EXACTLY the same this year when he was named, causing your "optimism" for your so well coached BVB.




Whatever point you want to make about Heynckes OK, but you're always having a go at Guardiola. For what other than your clear dislike for him I don't know. He had an amazing record with Bayern and now he's doing incredibly well with City. In fact the timing of this latest rant is... interesting I guess.


----------



## Evilo

I rate Guardiola.
But can't stand hipsters who hail him to no end without being capable of seeing his flaws.
Guardiola only chooses the favourite team of the league he signs with, he spends like crazy, and then when he fails to reach a CL final, people here still defend him to no end. Just like every coach, he deserves to be knocked on when he doesn't produce.
But he's immune to critics here.


----------



## Deficient Mode

And that's why he was criticized to no end here last year. Even I joined in.

But now? Not really.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Poor Stöger, even the VAR doesn't like Köln. As of now Köln have 4 goals scored and two points in 12 games. What a mess.
Yes, I know Bremen also just scored 4, but they play Hannover today and they might score one or two. Alsmost a must win game for them.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Sportbild now says the deal between Mislintat and Arsenal is complete and will be announced in the next few days. Arsenal will pay BVB merely 2M Euros for the transfer. Hope they're wrong.


----------



## theprofessor

I just think Jupp is a better fit for Bayern than most. Sometimes managers have qualities that are hard to precisely define. They just seem to have an effect on the team other managers do not. And of course in this case, it's a legendary, proven guy walking onto the pitch, so the players are going to respond. 
I wasn't a huge fan of Pep's style, but I don't believe he was necessarily better or worse than Jupp. Just different.


----------



## cgf

theprofessor said:


> I just think Jupp is a better fit for Bayern than most. Sometimes managers have qualities that are hard to precisely define. They just seem to have an effect on the team other managers do not. And of course in this case, it's a legendary, proven guy walking onto the pitch, so the players are going to respond.
> I wasn't a huge fan of Pep's style, but I don't believe he was necessarily better or worse than Jupp. Just different.




Different is a good way to describe Pep. More successful is another. How people have forgotten that Jupp coaches them prior to the treble season as well, I️ will never understand.


----------



## Cassano

Deficient Mode said:


> Sportbild now says the deal between Mislintat and Arsenal is complete and will be announced in the next few days. Arsenal will pay BVB merely 2M Euros for the transfer. Hope they're wrong.



Apparently Zorc will be named Sporting Director as well.

After all those years of baseless speculation among Arsenal fan, they finally raid Dortmund.


----------



## ecemleafs

Papadopolous shud be off now for a 2nd yellow. His first yellow was idiotic. That guy just cant control himself on the pitch.


----------



## ecemleafs

2-0 Schalke now. Whats the deal with Schalke letting star players run down their contract? Goretzka and Meyer both out of contract this summer?


----------



## theprofessor

cgf said:


> Different is a good way to describe Pep. More successful is another. How people have forgotten that Jupp coaches them prior to the treble season as well, I️ will never understand.



Not sure I completely understand your point, but Jupp took over a team that finished third in the league, behind his own club, Leverkusen and turned them into champions.


----------



## Bon Esprit

ecemleafs said:


> 2-0 Schalke now. Whats the deal with Schalke letting star players run down their contract? Goretzka and Meyer both out of contract this summer?



Last thing I read Top clubs like Barca, Bayern and Tottenham are lining up. Schalke are confident to re-sign him. He'll get dealt probably this winter. Meyer I don't know.


----------



## cgf

theprofessor said:


> Not sure I completely understand your point, but Jupp took over a team that finished third in the league, behind his own club, Leverkusen and turned them into champions.




Jupp took the best roster in the country and failed to even win the league until his final season...despite facing much a weaker opposition from Dortmund team than Pep got from Tuchel before Watzke gutted the team.



Bon Esprit said:


> Last thing I read Top clubs like Barca, Bayern and Tottenham are lining up. Schalke are confident to re-sign him. He'll get dealt probably this winter. Meyer I don't know.




LeGo will leave on a free to one of the FCBs in the summer, but at this point I expect Meyer to stay unless his transition to the 6 turns sour in the ruckrunde.


----------



## Evilo

Did you just say Klopp's BVB was weaker han Tuchel's?
Or am I mising something here?


----------



## Savant

Kruse back into form. Maybe they won’t get relegated


----------



## Savant

Bon Esprit said:


> Last thing I read Top clubs like Barca, Bayern and Tottenham are lining up. Schalke are confident to re-sign him. He'll get dealt probably this winter. Meyer I don't know.



Would much rather have Goretzka than Meyer. Goretzka will be able to pick where he wants if he keeps it up. But he needs to go to the right team.


----------



## Deficient Mode

All Might said:


> Apparently Zorc will be named Sporting Director as well.
> 
> After all those years of baseless speculation among Arsenal fan, they finally raid Dortmund.




Zorc deal is far less certain.




Evilo said:


> Did you just say Klopp's BVB was weaker han Tuchel's?
> Or am I mising something here?




Tuchel's first year team was better than Klopp's best team imo.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> Did you just say Klopp's BVB was weaker han Tuchel's?
> Or am I mising something here?




Tuchel's BVB was much better than Kloppo's in that first season; before Watzke sold Ilkay, Hummels, Miki, etc. and Tuchel had to rebuild all over again.

They would've blown past the record set by Klopp's title winner if Bayern hadn't secured the crown multiple games before the end of the season, at which point Tuchel started rotating heavily in the league.



Savant said:


> Kruse back into form. Maybe they won’t get relegated




Kruse is always in form, now he's just healthy ;-)

He, Kramer, Stindl & Rudy are probably the 4 most under-appreciated germans in the sport right now.



Savant said:


> Would much rather have Goretzka than Meyer. Goretzka will be able to pick where he wants if he keeps it up. But he needs to go to the right team.




LeGo has the higher ceiling, and if he lands with a Pep / Tuchel / Nagelsmann, can be absolutely world class...but Meyer has really turned things around since Tedesco moved him to the 6. If that experiment continues to go well Weigl will face a ton of competition to become Kroos' successor between Geiger, Meier & Meyer.


----------



## Evilo

Must be that Tuchel team Jupp faced in the CL final then.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Savant said:


> Kruse back into form. Maybe they won’t get relegated



He did nasty things to my team. But I expected something like this.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> Must be that Tuchel team Jupp faced in the CL final then.




You probably don't remember this because it didn't happen in france, but BVB actually played in the EL the year Tuchel took over because Klopp had lost the plot in his final season and his cluelessness in possession was taken advantage far too easily by far too many teams across germany...before TT took almost the same roster to what would've been the best season in club history had they not taken their foot off of the pedal when Bayern officiall secured the saladbowl.



Bon Esprit said:


> He did nasty things to my team. But I expected something like this.




Max is a bad man...a shame Jogi doesn't bring him to the NT, if only to show our younger forwards like Werner how space can be created through ingenuity and skill even more easily than it can through blistering pace or power...and how that kind of space is more consistently generate-able when playing against teams that sit deep and refuse to let their opponents have any room to run into.


----------



## Evilo

So failing to win the EL is clearly better than reaching the CL final.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Here we go again

The same argument we've had a hundred times


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> So failing to win the EL is clearly better than reaching the CL final.




Exactly. Nothing to do with the superior football that they played under Tuchel, or how much better they did in the league...actually pushing Bayern that season, which they had failed to do since Pep's arrival. That's why one off night in Liverpool is all of the proof necessary to definitively show that Tuchel's 1st BVB team had surpassed any of Kloppo's, even if they faced stiffer competition.


----------



## Evilo

Nah, that's not what you said. You said Guardiola faced a tougher BVB than Jupp because he faced Tuchel instead of Klopp.
Even though Klopp won a league and reached a CL final, beating Real and co in the process.
You argue Tuchel's team was better even though they didn't win their league and sank defensively against a, let's be honest for a minute, average Liverpool team (and Klopp BTW).

That's a weird, weird statement to make.


----------



## Deficient Mode

I'll say it again, as I always do, Tuchel's first team was on chance to break the Dortmund record for Bundesliga points that Klopp had set four years earlier, before flailing the last two matches of the season when they had nothing left to play for.

Whether Jupp's team the last year of his tenure was stronger than Guardiola's teams isn't the question; the teams of his second- and third-to-last year when Klopp won those Bundesliga titles clearly weren't.

As for European matches, well, you've heard my arguments about defining a season or coach by merely two matches as well. No need to rehash them.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> Nah, that's not what you said. *You said Guardiola faced a tougher BVB than Jupp because he faced Tuchel instead of Klopp.*
> Even though Klopp won a league and reached a CL final, beating Real and co in the process.
> You argue Tuchel's team was better even though they didn't win their league and sank defensively against a, let's be honest for a minute, average Liverpool team (and Klopp BTW).
> 
> That's a weird, weird statement to make.




I'd like to see a quote if you're going to put words in my mouth. I said Pep faced tougher competition from BVB in Tuchel's first season than Jupp ever did; which is a factually correct statement. Klopp won the league because Bayern was weaker, not because his sides got better results than did Tuchel's. Tuchel's first season BVB was going to blow past the point tally of any Klopp team to set a new team record, until Bayern clinched and Tuchel started rotating in those meaningless final few games. But because Bayern was so much better than they were when Klopp when his titles even a franchise best season didn't keep the title race alive to the final matchday.

They had one off night when they got cocky and thought that they had put the tie to bed in the first leg. That's an error, but that error doesn't negate how much better they were the rest of the season.


----------



## Evilo

It's hardly a "factual" comment since Klopp proved in Europe his team was MUCH better.


----------



## Cassano

Deficient Mode said:


> Zorc deal is far less certain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tuchel's first year team was better than Klopp's best team imo.



I think it's bad news for Bundesliga if the signing does happen. Especially with Mertesacker leading the youth academy next year. I'd expect a large influx of German talent over the next few years.


----------



## Deficient Mode

All Might said:


> I think it's bad news for Bundesliga if the signing does happen. Especially with Mertesacker leading the youth academy next year. I'd expect a large influx of German talent over the next few years.




IDK. The signings most often credited to Mislintat were non-Bundesliga players. Guerreiro, Dembele, Kagawa...

I'm not too worried yet about Dortmund's ability to identify or attract talented young German players. There should be more awareness of the upcoming German talents on youth national teams and such. IDK if Mislintat or Mertesacker would give Arsenal an advantage in attracting German players.


----------



## Evilo

Arsenal have failed with the German market. 
They've failed ever since they left the French market too.


----------



## Cassano

Evilo said:


> Arsenal have failed with the German market.
> They've failed ever since they left the French market too.



They failed with the French market too, make no mistake. The signings of Gervinho, Squillaci, Chamakh were all disastrous.


----------



## YNWA14

The Tuchel > Klopp thing doesn't really have much hold aside from very few people that just think the play looked nicer. Realistically speaking Tuchel didn't have the results or silverware to say he was better at Dortmund than Klopp was. You can amass points against the lesser sides all you want, but when you fail in the big games and don't win anything except a very fortunate Pokal I don't see how that makes his Dortmund any better than recent Arsenal. Surely Klopp's titles and achievements were better, he beat him head to head with Liverpool, and on top of it he laid the foundation for that Dortmund team in the first place.


----------



## Evilo

All Might said:


> They failed with the French market too, make no mistake. The signings of Gervinho, Squillaci, Chamakh were all disastrous.



French market won them titles. Grimandi was a good advice.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Curtinho said:


> The Tuchel > Klopp thing doesn't really have much hold aside from very few people that just think the play looked nicer. Realistically speaking Tuchel didn't have the results or silverware to say he was better at Dortmund than Klopp was. You can amass points against the lesser sides all you want, but when you fail in the big games and don't win anything except a very fortunate Pokal I don't see how that makes his Dortmund any better than recent Arsenal. Surely Klopp's titles and achievements were better, he beat him head to head with Liverpool, and on top of it he laid the foundation for that Dortmund team in the first place.




It's not really that Tuchel is better than Klopp or did a better job than Klopp. Klopp started with a midtable squad and Tuchel started with the second best team in Germany. Tuchel's first year was better from start to finish than Klopp's best team, though. They didn't reach the same high peaks - and those are what neutral fans tend to remember - but that CL run had a bit of luck in the knockout round as well (almost eliminated by Malaga; favorable draw through the semifinals). I like both coaches dearly. Tuchel's first year team was one of the best in Europe even if they didn't play in the CL that year and ultimately failed to win the EL either. Neutral fans can ridicule me now for saying that as they did then. I don't care. I actually watched that team play.


----------



## Cassano

Evilo said:


> French market won them titles. Grimandi was a good advice.




Yeah it did over a decade ago.


----------



## cgf

Curtinho said:


> The Tuchel > Klopp thing doesn't really have much hold aside from very few people that just think the play looked nicer. Realistically speaking Tuchel didn't have the results or silverware to say he was better at Dortmund than Klopp was. You can amass points against the lesser sides all you want, but when you fail in the big games and don't win anything except a very fortunate Pokal I don't see how that makes his Dortmund any better than recent Arsenal. Surely Klopp's titles and achievements were better, he beat him head to head with Liverpool, and on top of it he laid the foundation for that Dortmund team in the first place.




For what it's worth; I've yet to see a truly knowledgeable BuLi observer argue that any of Klopp's teams where as dominant as Tuchel's 1st season in Dortmund. The only BuLi observes who I've seen make that point were some of the old guard that hate Tuchel's style and arrogance; and their only argument was the saladbowls, ignoring that Tuchel's BVB would've won saladbowls to if their performance were transposed to 2011 or 2012...ahead of the Klopp Dortmund that actually lifted the trophy.

They didn't just look a lot better on the pitch, they did a lot better on the pitch outside of that 1 match in the second leg against LFC when they got cocky and thought they had already sealed the tie. That was a catastrophic collapse that they will never live down, but that one night does not erase every other match that they played that season.



Evilo said:


> It's hardly a "factual" comment since Klopp proved in Europe his team was MUCH better.




That team proved that they were more humble than Tuchel's 1st BVB...even though they to almost s*** the bed when they needed an improbably late goal to avoid going out in the first (or was it the second?) knockout round to Malaga. Klopp won his titles with 75 & 81 points while not even getting to the knockouts stages of european competition; and in the year they made the CL final they hit just 66.

Tuchel's 1st season with the club, they hit 77 points with two games to go...but then Bayern clinched, Tuchel rotated, and BVB lost their 1st match in 15 games against relegation-zone Frankfurt before tying with firmly midtable Köln. That team dominated the league right off the bat in a way Klopp's teams struggled to keep pace with at their absolute peak...and Tuchel did so while fighting on more fronts than any of Klopp's teams that came close to matching Tuchel's boys' league performance.

Nevermind that Tuchel's team face a much stronger BuLi...not just Bayern...in 2016 than Klopp's boys did in 2011 or 2012. But we can drop this discussion if you guys want. I've explained all of this more than once before and it didn't sway you from the "but titles" and "but CL final" side of the discussion; so I doubt I'll sway either of you this time around either.



Deficient Mode said:


> It's not really that Tuchel is better than Klopp or did a better job than Klopp. Klopp started with a midtable squad and Tuchel started with the second best team in Germany. Tuchel's first year was better from start to finish than Klopp's best team, though. They didn't reach the same high peaks - and those are what neutral fans tend to remember - but that CL run had a bit of luck in the knockout round as well (almost eliminated by Malaga; favorable draw through the semifinals). I like both coaches dearly. Tuchel's first year team was one of the best in Europe even if they didn't play in the CL that year and ultimately failed to win the EL either. Neutral fans can ridicule me now for saying that as they did then. I don't care. I actually watched that team play.




This is a much less longwinded way of saying what I wanted to. I get why neutrals or casual fans remember the 2011, 2012 and 2013 seasons more fondly; but as a fan of a rival german club, it was the 2016 iteration of BVB that was most impressive and that I would least like to see my eiserne have to face if we ever get into the top division...and that I'd least like Gladbach to have to battle for a CL spot.


----------



## Evilo

All Might said:


> Yeah it did over a decade ago.



Yeah and?
They went away from the french market like 8-10 years ago.


----------



## Cassano

Evilo said:


> Yeah and?
> They went away from the french market like 8-10 years ago.



They still signed plenty of French players during that span. Way more than German players and Spanish players.

Squillaci retired today btw.


----------



## Evilo

Really?
Wenger hasn't bought a french player outside Giroud and Lacazette for something like 5 years I'd say.
Chamakh and co were 10 years ago.


----------



## Cassano

Evilo said:


> Really?
> Wenger hasn't bought a french player outside Giroud and Lacazette for something like 5 years I'd say.
> Chamakh and co were 10 years ago.



Past 5 years (2012-Present):
France (9): Giroud, Sanogo, Flamini, Debuchy, Reine-Adelaide, Yassin Fortune, Bennacer, Lacazette
Germany (4): Podolski, Ozil, Mustafi
Spain (3): Monreal, Cazorla, Lucas


----------



## Cassano

Read that Tuchel's dickish behaviour was the reason for Mislintat left. Somehow Dortmund end up with neither.

Seems like a great tactician, but maybe a bit too cold to be managing a top club.


----------



## cgf

Tuchel isn't any more difficult to deal with than Pep; who's in the process of transforming his 3rd top club. He's a dick, but this mess is on Watzke.


----------



## les Habs

Evilo said:


> I rate Guardiola.
> But can't stand hipsters who hail him to no end without being capable of seeing his flaws.
> Guardiola only chooses the favourite team of the league he signs with, he spends like crazy, and then when he fails to reach a CL final, people here still defend him to no end. Just like every coach, he deserves to be knocked on when he doesn't produce.
> But he's immune to critics here.




Then maybe go find the forum where the hipsters are rating him without being capable of seeing his flaws because it's not here. 

For starters, Guardiola didn't choose Bayern. They approached him. On top of that Barça are the club of his life and he started him managerial career with the B team. More important though, City wasn't necessarily the favorite team in the league. You could also make that case for other managers like Mourinho and Ancelotti.

Not all of the spending is down to him. To the point though, it's fair to criticize him but to expect him to reach the CL Final every year is just stupid, especially if one expected that with Bayern. 

As for the criticism, he's more criticized than a lot of lesser managers out there. Hell, look at the poll from this past Summer. You can start with the first round.

Anyway, we get it. You don't like Guardiola.


----------



## Evilo

All Might said:


> Past 5 years (2012-Present):
> France (9): Giroud, Sanogo, Flamini, Debuchy, Reine-Adelaide, Yassin Fortune, Bennacer, Lacazette
> Germany (4): Podolski, Ozil, Mustafi
> Spain (3): Monreal, Cazorla, Lucas



Debuchy was bought on the EPL market. Flamini same. Rest are youngsters except Lacazette and Giroud, as I said.


----------



## Evilo

les Habs said:


> Then maybe go find the forum where the hipsters are rating him without being capable of seeing his flaws because it's not here.
> 
> For starters, Guardiola didn't choose Bayern. They approached him. On top of that Barça are the club of his life and he started him managerial career with the B team. More important though, City wasn't necessarily the favorite team in the league. You could also make that case for other managers like Mourinho and Ancelotti.
> 
> Not all of the spending is down to him. To the point though, it's fair to criticize him but to expect him to reach the CL Final every year is just stupid, especially if one expected that with Bayern.
> 
> As for the criticism, he's more criticized than a lot of lesser managers out there. Hell, look at the poll from this past Summer. You can start with the first round.
> 
> Anyway, we get it. You don't like Guardiola.



1/ Yeah some hipsters have blindedly defended him. I'm not into other forums.
2/ I made my stance on Mourinho and Ancelotti before. Doesn't change Guardiola's choices. City had the best roster when he signed, with the most spending power to boot.
3/ He's among the top spenders in the history of the game. Mourinho is tops obviously. But who would rate Mourinho over Pep anyway?
4/ I'm expecting ONE CL final out of Bayern who reached 3 in the 5 years before him IIRC. If that somehow equals to every year, then yeah, someone is being stupid.
5/ Don't care about the votes, I disagreed with most of it. Conte that high was ridiculous, Mourinho doesn't belong in the top 10 IMO. Pep was second in my book because of CL success and adaptation and I voted as such and explained why.


----------



## Cassano

Evilo said:


> Debuchy was bought on the EPL market. Flamini same. Rest are youngsters except Lacazette and Giroud, as I said.



eh, Debuchy spent one year in the Premier League at the time. Close enough I think.

Arsenal still buy more French players than any other. It's not like there is a large amount of German players coming in.

I'm not saying to stop buying french players, it's obvious that they have the most talented group of youth players in the world. It's just that what they've signed in recent years have been non-factors a bit too much. That's on scouting.

They never really tested the German market to consider it a team failure either. If we are using the Debuchy logic you used, Ozil and Mustafi, both Germans, were signed out of La Liga.


----------



## Cassano

cgf said:


> Tuchel isn't any more difficult to deal with than Pep; who's in the process of transforming his 3rd top club. He's a dick, but this mess is on Watzke.



He ruined their tradition. BvB were a club with unity between board, scouts, CEO and manager before that.

Pep is bigger than City itself, so it doesn't matter as much.


----------



## Evilo

All Might said:


> eh, Debuchy spent one year in the Premier League at the time. Close enough I think.
> 
> Arsenal still buy more French players than any other. It's not like there is a large amount of German players coming in.
> 
> I'm not saying to stop buying french players, it's obvious that they have the most talented group of youth players in the world. It's just that what they've signed in recent years have been non-factors a bit too much. That's on scouting.
> 
> They never really tested the German market to consider it a team failure either. If we are using the Debuchy logic you used, Ozil and Mustafi, both Germans, were signed out of La Liga.



BL are talented enough, that's not the problem but rather pick the good ones.
Xhaka is another example.


----------



## Cassano

Evilo said:


> BL are talented enough, that's not the problem but rather pick the good ones.
> Xhaka is another example.



Sure he's struggled. But what about Kolasinac who has been one of the top LBs this season, also from Bundesliga?


----------



## Evilo

That's about the only player signed from the BL with any kind of success at Arsenal.


----------



## Hadoop

So much discussion about (current) Buli players/coaches/teams on this forum.


----------



## bluesfan94

Evilo said:


> Debuchy was bought on the EPL market. Flamini same. Rest are youngsters except Lacazette and Giroud, as I said.



Okay in that case add Ospina


Evilo said:


> That's about the only player signed from the BL with any kind of success at Arsenal.



Mertesacker?


----------



## Cassano

Evilo said:


> That's about the only player signed from the BL with any kind of success at Arsenal.



Not true (Mertesacker), but even if it is, it's because they've barely signed any. We've come full circle.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Rosicky?


----------



## Cassano

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Rosicky?



He was a bit of a flop IMO. When it came to prior form and the continuous injuries, he underperformed overall in his Arsenal career.


----------



## Evilo

When Mertesacker is considered a success, something's wrong. Koscielny at least is a success somewhat.
Ospina is a L1 signing. Decent backup I'd say.


----------



## ScottishCanuck

As usual everything French is amazing and everything else is just meh.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Hadoop said:


> So much discussion about (current) Buli players/coaches/teams on this forum.




This thread is always littered with these f***ers who hardly watch the Bundesliga outside the CL teams having arguments about inane shit that's like 4 years in the past.


----------



## Cassano

Evilo said:


> When Mertesacker is considered a success, something's wrong. Koscielny at least is a success somewhat.
> Ospina is a L1 signing. Decent backup I'd say.



Yeah.. that's really selling him short. He made over 150 appearances and captained the club, performed well in big games at times, etc. He isn't world class, but he was a serviceable starter for a team competing in the top 4 in his prime. But I'm sure if he was Mamadou Sakho, he'd be considered a success in your eyes.

And keeping Ospina over Szczesny was a huge mistake actually. He's held back because of his height.

Going back to the original point, you were clearly wrong in saying Arsenal turned away from the French market when it is factually correct that the majority of their signings are French players/Ligue 1/2 players. Also very quick to anoint German players as being the reason they've declined when they've barely bought players from there in comparison is funny.


----------



## Cassano

Nalens Oga said:


> This thread is always littered with these ****ers who hardly watch the Bundesliga outside the CL teams having arguments about inane **** that's like 4 years in the past.



The football world revolves around the EPL.

This stemmed from Arsenal signing Mislintat from Dortmund, which is pretty big news.


----------



## Evilo

ScottishCanuck said:


> As usual everything French is amazing and everything else is just meh.



Clearly not what I wrote. I wrote Arsenal was buying the right players from the french market, and not from the german market, which is directly related to their scouts.

But hey, make up anything you want !


----------



## Evilo

All Might said:


> Yeah.. that's really selling him short. He made over 150 appearances and captained the club, performed well in big games at times, etc. He isn't world class, but he was a serviceable starter for a team competing in the top 4 in his prime. But I'm sure if he was Mamadou Sakho, he'd be considered a success in your eyes.
> 
> And keeping Ospina over Szczesny was a huge mistake actually. He's held back because of his height.
> 
> Going back to the original point, you were clearly wrong in saying Arsenal turned away from the French market when it is factually correct that the majority of their signings are French players/Ligue 1/2 players. Also very quick to anoint German players as being the reason they've declined when they've barely bought players from there in comparison is funny.



Yeah that's wrong all around.
Ospina did very well at backup, Mertesacker cost your team so many points over the years it's not funny. To say one is a failure and the other one is a good one is wrong.
Clearly not wrong in my assessment of Arsenal not digging in the french market anymore except a whopping 3 senior players in 5 years (Ospina, Lacazette, Giroud), while not buying the right players from the BL (with one exception and one decent player).
As for the main reason Arsenal declined I never said it was THIS. I said in the past going away from young players, the whole transfer policy, and of course, the lack of coaching adjustments, etc...


----------



## Cassano

I think Bosz will get sacked if they lose to Schalke. Would BvB fans take the loss if it guaranteed that?



Evilo said:


> I said in the past going away from young players, the whole transfer policy, and of course, the lack of coaching adjustments, etc...



Yes, I can agree with this part of your post.


----------



## Deficient Mode

All Might said:


> I think Bosz will get sacked if they lose to Schalke. Would BvB fans take the loss if it guaranteed that?




lol no. I'm worried which half good coach they could find to replace him right now.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

I fear what the future holds for BVB.


----------



## cgf

Just enjoy watching the cooler Borussia take charge for a while. They just need to convince Tuchel and Eggestein to come aboard...


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich




----------



## Deficient Mode

Watching the Blues-Predators game and this reporter just called the Dortmund-Schalke rivalry the "Riverderby" and played up the color connection as well as the similarities between Gelsenkirchen (which he mercifully did not attempt to pronounce) and St Louis.

I want to die now.


----------



## Hadoop

Deficient Mode said:


> Watching the Blues-Predators game and this reporter just called the Dortmund-Schalke rivalry the "Riverderby" and played up the color connection as well as the similarities between Gelsenkirchen (which he mercifully did not attempt to pronounce) and St Louis.
> 
> I want to die now.




Lol not surprising. Most casual soccer fans in North America would be much more likely to follow the EPL and of course Barca/Real. Just look at the last two pages of this thread. Hardly anything to do with the Buli.

I for one am looking forward to the Revierderby tomorrow though.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Would take an Ellis-Subban-Ekholm-Josi back line, might be a little better than ours.


----------



## cgf

I mean, NRW is about as sh*tty as STL...


----------



## Cassano

Looked like a handball goal.


----------



## Savant

Schalke getting stomped next out

Dortmund is killing them on the wings and in the box. None of Schalke’s CMs can get involved at all.

Why didn’t Goretzka start?


----------



## Theokritos

What a weird season Dortmund is having.


----------



## Savant

At 33rd minute, Di Santo and McKinnie out, Harit and Goretzka on.


----------



## Vipers31

cgf said:


> I mean, NRW is about as sh*tty as STL...



Don't you dare drag the Ruhrgebiet's general shittiness into the beautiful rest of NRW.


----------



## Savant

Keita with a nice goal against Bremen


----------



## ecemleafs

dortmund trying to blow a 4 goal lead. 4-2 now and down to 10 men. auba with a ridiculous challenge to get himself a 2nd booking.


----------



## ecemleafs

Dortmunds defending is absolutely shit. Its like they dont even care.


----------



## ecemleafs

4-4. zagadou responsible for the defending on 3rd and 4th goals. dortmund will be lukcy to get a point now.


----------



## Vipers31

Theokritos said:


> What a weird season Dortmund is having.



You could say that.


----------



## Bon Esprit

lol Dortmund. Sorry, I had to...


----------



## ecemleafs

Bosz has to be gone after that clown show.


----------



## Evilo

ecemleafs said:


> 4-4. zagadou responsible for the defending on 3rd and 4th goals. dortmund will be lukcy to get a point now.



Don't know why Zagadou has become so overrated here. He's a good young player, but nothing else.


----------



## Prntscrn

Dortmund doing a Liverpool lol. Can youo find the connection?


----------



## Savant

Glory said:


> Dortmund doing a Liverpool lol. Can youo find the connection?



Worse than Liverpool!


----------



## Cassano

Bosz is gone for sure. Paperwork will be done tonight I think.


----------



## ecemleafs

newcastle arsenal esque


----------



## Evilo

I loled at french players in this game... Guerreiro and Harit gave their team +, Auba and Zagadou killed theirs.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

I want to get off Peter Bosz's wild ride.


----------



## Just Win

I only did see the results from Dortmund-Schalke at halftime and after the game. What the f*** did Dortmund do during halftime? Get drunk?


----------



## Cassano

Saw the highlights, it was clearly on Zagadou


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Zagadon't


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> Don't know why Zagadou has become so overrated here. He's a good young player, but nothing else.




He was playing out of position today. He's not a left back. He's not agile enough to keep up with shifty wingers 1-on-1 and the fourth goal was more of a collective failure. He got a bit too much hype based on a couple of good performances, but this match doesn't discredit him really. The problems with Dortmund's midfield and back line defending have way more to do with coordination than the individual defenders being bad.


----------



## Evilo

Those were individual errors, nothing to do with his positionning. As I said, good young player, nothing more.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> Those were individual errors, nothing to do with his positionning. As I said, good young player, nothing more.




They really weren't. The Dortmund fans hyping him up have still watched him more than you have. Foolish of Pavel to try to change your mind or get your attention about him being an exciting talent, though: you never change your mind about anyone.


----------



## Evilo

Really?
So he's more than a good young player to you, right?
You wouldn't rate him if he was playing elsewhere.
You did the same with Guerreiro BTW.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> Really?
> So he's more than a good young player to you, right?
> You wouldn't rate him if he was playing elsewhere.
> You did the same with Guerreiro BTW.




Sure I wouldn't.

I certainly did not solicit your input about the performances of Guerreiro or anyone else playing in a league that you've professed not to watch or enjoy in the past. I'm well aware that your initial judgment of how good a player is in Ligue 1 is final and anything that happens after confirms your earlier judgment or you ignore/downplay.


----------



## cgf

Thank god Pep is gone and the cooler Borussia can beat Bayern regularly again.

Now my eiserne just need to start winning again cause Nurnberg has pulled level with them for third in BuLi2.


----------



## cgf

It's time for BMG to snag a 3rd


----------



## cgf

Hummels was so lucky Raffa didn't go down there or Mats would've seen red.


----------



## cgf

Well deserved win for BMG. Bayern lacked ideas with the Javi-Tolisso-Vidal midfield other than trying to win second balls in the box off of headers from the weakside; and gladbach were very compact against the ball while breaking quickly when they did get the ball...BMG actually deserved to score more Raffa was fouled by Hummels when Mats was the last man back & Raffa was in on goal on his own; Drmic wasted a chance in stoppage time even though he had a wide open Hazard at the back post wait to poke the ball in; and BMG had some earlier chances on the counter that they did not bury.

All in all this was a very typical Jupp v Gladbach match that the good guys managed to pull through.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Well deserved win for BMG. Bayern lacked ideas with the Javi-Tolisso-Vidal midfield other than trying to win second balls in the box off of headers from the weakside; and gladbach were very compact against the ball while breaking quickly when they did get the ball...BMG actually deserved to score more Raffa was fouled by Hummels when Mats was the last man back & Raffa was in on goal on his own; Drmic wasted a chance in stoppage time even though he had a wide open Hazard at the back post wait to poke the ball in; and BMG had some earlier chances on the counter that they did not bury.
> 
> All in all this was a very typical Jupp v Gladbach match that the good guys managed to pull through.




So is Hecking good now??????


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> So is Hecking good now??????




Hecking is Hecking. He can organize a team defensively, he has made BMG more dangerous off setpieces, and hasn't destroyed BMG's fluidity with the ball yet...but I still want to see Tuchel replace him.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Hecking is Hecking. He can organize a team defensively and hasn't destroyed BMG's fluidity with the ball yet...but I still want to see Tuchel replace him.




Hecking to BVB
Tuchel to BMG


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Hecking to BVB
> Tuchel to BMG




lol I can actually see that. Watzke throwing silly money at Hecking is probably BMG's best shot at upgrading despite the team's good season, and it would also help their "stick it to Watzke" pitch to Tuchel.

Add Favre to Union and Keller to Werder and we'd really be cooking with gas. Shame Nagelsmann is going to turn Bayern back into a powerhouse instead of replacing Hassenhuttl for RB...cause that would be a real game changer for the BuLi. Nagelsmann with that RB youth pipeline and all of their attacking talent would be too sexy and some saladbowls would be in their future.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Where do I start?

1. Bosz out. Done, get rid of this guy.

2. Aytekin outdid himself in the Barcelona-PSG match. One of the worst refereeing performances I've seen. And it wasn't just for one team, it was for both teams. This guy must've done 8-10 things that had a big impact on the match in a bad way.

3. I didn't think we were playing as good as we were getting credit for early on. The first goal shouldn't have counted, Auba punched it in, the second goal was a crazy own goal, the third we got a big help from Aytekin intercepting the ball for us. We were not 4-0 better than Schalke in that first half.

4. The second half showed our defensive problems. The game plan was all wrong. Sitting back played into Schalke's hands. They couldn't cope with the press, they were making a ton of mistakes in the first half, I don't know why we just sat off and gave them the ball for 45 minutes. This team can not reliably keep the ball out of their net, it doesn't play into our hands either.

5. The CB's were all awful. Toprak, Sokratis, Schmelzer, Zagadou, Bartra was the only one who I thought was not awful. Weigl was absolutely invisible once again. I thought Goetze and Aubameyang were particularly good in this game. Weidenfeller had a few nice saves, but also was horribly out of position on the first goal. Given that the expectations were so low, I don't think he played that poorly, but we need a new back up in January. The others were nondescript.

6. Aytekin had no consistency in the cards he was giving out. Kehrer should've been sent off for fouling Yarmolenko when he was beat, Caliguri should've been sent off for a kick off the ball against Goetze that sent him out of the match. Frankly, Sokratis should've also been sent off for his antics and even Castro's challenge on Harit's ankle with his studs could've been red. There was no consistency, and many awful decisions. How he refereed this game was awful. The complaints are gonna be a lot worse when you flip a coin for your decision each challenge. Be consistent. If one thing is a yellow, another is a yellow. If one player gets send off for a second yellow, another does. The decisions were so random with the cards.

7. Why did we bring on two CB's and a box to box mid? Once Auba was sent off, we had no outlet, except for Pulisic trying to outrun everyone, he obviously isn't going to win headers against Naldo. Dumb strategy. We needed to sub in Schurrle or Philipp instead of Castro.

8. I didn't like the back 3 to start the game. I don't know who it suits, other than Guerreiro. Sokratis and Toprak, Schmelzer aren't good for a three man back line, all do best in a 4. Pulisic is wasted as a wing-back. Why would you play Sahin and Weigl? Neither are box to box, we had two defensive midfielders, seemed an odd arrangement.


----------



## cgf

Toprak and Bartra are plenty good in a back three if it's well organized & well drilled; and having Pulisic as the RWB opposite Raphael is probably the best way for you to handle the flanks given your dreadful RB options. Sokratis has been crap all season, but having two of Bartra, Toprak and Zagadou covering for him and helping him with the build up duties is probably the best way to utilize him if he's going to stay as sloppy as he's been all season and remain a starter.

Granted playing that way would require getting the midfield right with the trio of Weigl, Mo & Mario feeding Auba & Yarmo/Philipp, but my ideal shape for the talent on that BVB roster is a back three with Raphael & Pulisic on the wings 

Auba* - Yarmo*
Raphael - Gotze - Dahoud - Pulisic
Weigl
Zagadou - Toprak - Bartra​
*Philipp

With Zagadou coming off and Sokratis playing between Toprak & Bartra if the kid doesn't shine in that LCB-in-a-back-3 role.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Evilo said:


> Don't know why Zagadou has become so overrated here. He's a good young player, but nothing else.




He's had a few poor games, but was good earlier on in the season. You are being opportunistic now.

And you also shit on Auba, who you don't like, opportunistic. He deserved the red, but if Aytekin wasn't so terrible, it wouldn't have been 11-10, Kehrer and Caliguri would've both been sent off.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

cgf said:


> Toprak and Bartra are plenty good in a back three if it's well organized & well drilled; and having Pulisic as the RWB opposite Raphael is probably the best way for you to handle the flanks given your dreadful RB options. Sokratis has been crap all season, but having two of Bartra, Toprak and Zagadou covering for him and helping him with the build up duties is probably the best way to utilize him if he's going to stay as sloppy as he's been all season and remain a starter.
> 
> Granted playing that way would require getting the midfield right with the trio of Weigl, Mo & Mario feeding Auba & Yarmo/Philipp, but my ideal shape for the talent on that BVB roster is a back three with Raphael & Pulisic on the wings
> 
> Auba* - Yarmo*
> Raphael - Gotze - Dahoud - Pulisic
> Weigl
> Zagadou - Toprak - Bartra​
> *Philipp
> 
> With Zagadou coming off and Sokratis playing between Toprak & Bartra if the kid doesn't shine in that LCB-in-a-back-3 role.




A three helps with the lack of a RB, which is why Bosz might've played it today after how Toljan played in midweek, but we don't have the players for a back 3. Zagadou-Bartra is my preferred pairing, even though they were bad recently playing together. Bartra-Toprak isn't terrible either.


----------



## Evilo

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> He's had a few poor games, but was good earlier on in the season. You are being opportunistic now.
> 
> And you also **** on Auba, who you don't like, opportunistic. He deserved the red, but if Aytekin wasn't so terrible, it wouldn't have been 11-10, Kehrer and Caliguri would've both been sent off.



I have nothing against Auba nor Zagadou. Just against the overratedness.


----------



## cgf

...over-ratedness and the notion that it is even possible that a player could develop further after leaving France; since France has the best development league in the world and no other league could possibly do better with an individual player...


----------



## Bon Esprit

On Sport1 talk they just said Bosz will stay for now.


----------



## Evilo

cgf said:


> ...over-ratedness and the notion that it is even possible that a player could develop further after leaving France; since France has the best development league in the world and no other league could possibly do better with an individual player...



People don't suddenly progress in two minutes.
Zagadou didn't suddenly become a world class prospect because he played 4 games with BVB. Guerreiro didn't become a top 5 LB the moment he signed with BVB. Bosz didn't suddenly become a top coach once he signed with BVB (though that one didn't last long). Aubameyang didn't turn at age 27 from a good L1 striker to a top 5 world class striker.

That's not how it works. It's quite naive to think otherwise.


----------



## bluesfan94

cgf said:


> I mean, NRW is about as sh*tty as STL...



Fight me irl


----------



## ecemleafs

Arp is an exciting prospect for Hamburg. Manages to actually look good as an attacker for that team as a teenager.


----------



## HajdukSplit

Hoffenheim were incredibly flat today, credit to HSV though. Big match for Koln right now as they are totally cut adrift now with Freiburg/HSV both winning this round


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> People don't suddenly progress in two minutes.
> Zagadou didn't suddenly become a world class prospect because he played 4 games with BVB. Guerreiro didn't become a top 5 LB the moment he signed with BVB. Bosz didn't suddenly become a top coach once he signed with BVB (though that one didn't last long). Aubameyang didn't turn at age 27 from a good L1 striker to a top 5 world class striker.
> 
> That's not how it works. It's quite naive to think otherwise.




Auba was 23 turning 24 when he went to germany and his game started growing massively. Plus we've seen Tuchel raise the technical quality of multiple players in their mid 20s; including Auba, Schmelzer, Miki, etc. But I understand that they are not french and so obviously couldn't be as good at developing talent as their french counterparts; so it must've required evil german blood magic.



ecemleafs said:


> Arp is an exciting prospect for Hamburg. Manages to actually look good as an attacker for that team as a teenager.




Yeah he's a big time talent and isn't just extremely physically advanced. Some of the goals he's poked in are pure poacher goals, and he's smart enough to interplay & combine with other attackers in a way Gomez never did. Kid's very Klose-esque.


----------



## Evilo

cgf said:


> Auba was 23 turning 24 when he went to germany and his game started growing massively. Plus we've seen Tuchel raise the technical quality of multiple players in their mid 20s; including Auba, Schmelzer, Miki, etc. But I understand that they are not french and so obviously couldn't be as good at developing talent as their french counterparts; so it must've required evil german blood magic.



You can continue to post crap, I never particularly rated french coaches, so yeah, make some shit up.
You don't "raise" technical level by magic. You live in fantasy world.

Again, I rated Guerreiro as a nice player, spoke highly of him multiple times. But to see him rated as world class by posters here the minute he signed with BVB by people who had never uttered a word suggesting they even knew about him is quite funny.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Yes you never improve your technical ability or improve once you're already an adult

We know

No one cares how you value Dortmund players whom you don't watch anymore. No one said Guerreiro was top 10 much less top 5 overnight. You're the only one making things up.


----------



## Evilo

Deficient Mode said:


> No one said Guerreiro was top 10 much less top 5 overnight. You're the only one making things up.



Really?
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...sfer-discussion.2351673/page-3#post-132830667

Who's making things up now?


----------



## Deficient Mode

I for one find it funny that the same guy who complains the most about hipsters is also the one most obsessed with telling people he knew how good players were before they went to a big club.

Literally no one cares.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> Really?
> http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...sfer-discussion.2351673/page-3#post-132830667
> 
> Who's making things up now?




May 28, 2017. So after a full season of play with Dortmund. Genius.


----------



## Evilo

OF COURSE !!!
I took him 24 games, many as backup, to entranch himself as top 10 player.

Genius indeed !


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> OF COURSE !!!
> I took him 24 games, *most as backup*, to entranch himself as top 10 player.
> 
> Genius indeed !




The Dortmund expert is here again.

The same guy who constantly makes arguments like "Umtiti has established himself at Barca therefore he's one of the best CBs in the world" is going to criticize other fans for raising their opinion of a player when he steps in and establishes himself as a key player with a bigger club. I can taste the hypocrisy from here.


----------



## Deficient Mode

You never talked about Mendy before last summer. Never uttered a word on him on this forum. Then suddenly yesterday you call him the best LB in the world. But no, Guerreiro can't become a top 10 LB in one season. Sure thing.


----------



## Evilo

Actually, if you could follow a little, I didn't rate Umtiti that much until recently. You can search through the threads. Go on.

Guerreiro had a whopping total of 8 BL games where he played the full 90.

Key player. That's the word indeed.


----------



## Evilo

Deficient Mode said:


> You never talked about Mendy before last summer. Never uttered a word on him on this forum. Then suddenly yesterday you call him the best LB in the world. But no, Guerreiro can't become a top 10 LB in one season. Sure thing.



Not true. I talked about him when he was with Le Havre 
And I said arguably.
And I said last year.
That's three misses in one line.
You're embarrassing yourself further every post.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> Actually, if you could follow a little, I didn't rate Umtiti that much until recently. You can search through the threads. Go on.
> 
> Guerreiro had a whopping total of 8 BL games where he played the full 90.
> 
> Key player. That's the word indeed.




Yeah, cause you only rated him when he went to Barca and you could attach their prestige to his name. That shows your hypocrisy about players raising their opinion of a player when he goes to Dortmund even more clearly. 

Guerreiro made 17 Bundesliga starts last year - half the matches. He only did not appear in two out of 34 matches when he was healthy. 



Evilo said:


> Not true. I talked about him when he was with Le Havre
> And I said arguably.
> And I said last year.
> That's three misses in one line.
> You're embarrassing yourself further every post.




Well if you did it's not in the HF search database. Did you call him a top 10 or top 20 LB before the fall of 2016? Surely you think he's a top 10 LB in the world now based on his performance last year. How many players whom he outperformed last year would you still put ahead of him overall?


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> May 28, 2017. So after a full season of play with Dortmund. Genius.




After a full season at BVB I said he was top 10...which we all know is the same thing as claiming he became top 5 over-night...

Good thing Evilo has never cared about reality as much as he does about strawmen; it makes his lies a lot easier for him to live with.


----------



## Evilo

Deficient Mode said:


> Yeah, cause you only rated him when he went to Barca and you could attach their prestige to his name. That shows your hypocrisy about players raising their opinion of a player when he goes to Dortmund even more clearly.
> 
> Guerreiro made 17 Bundesliga starts last year - half the matches. He only did not appear in two out of 34 matches when he was healthy.
> 
> 
> 
> Well if you did it's not in the HF search database. Did you call him a top 10 or top 20 LB before the fall of 2016? Surely you think he's a top 10 LB in the world now based on his performance last year. How many players whom he outperformed last year would you still put ahead of him overall?




Umtiti : I always said he was a nice prospect, but also said I didn't feel he was ready for Barca. He proved me wrong, and showed his class.
Also in development years.
No hypocrisy because I never said he was good overnight. I only said it recently. After way more than 9 full games with Barca. To make the comparison is laughable.
Guerreiro had 9 90 minutes BL games. Enough said.

As for Mendy, again, development years. Always had crazy offensive talent, as can be shown from his OM years under Bielsa, but lacked consistency defensively.
As for knowing where he stands now, he'd need to play this year to be rated properly.
But I still remember two posters here saying Guerreiro was better. Fun, fun, fun.
Just like that Weigl/Dahoud partnership who was best in the world.

Anyway, I'm done with this, you can't even write proper arguments, lying about me talking about Mendy and Umiti. Maybe next time you should read the posts before making things up. To say I never talked about Mendy before is fun. Same with me saying I rated Umiti overnight while it took me two years to say he was good enough.


----------



## Evilo

cgf said:


> After a full season at BVB I said he was top 10...which we all know is the same thing as claiming he became top 5 over-night...
> 
> Good thing Evilo has never cared about reality as much as he does about strawmen; it makes his lies a lot easier for him to live with.



You've been the only one lying here. (french coaches, blah, blah, blah)
You also said Guerreiro was top 10, borderline top 5.
Overnight as 9 90 minutes game. 

Haha, my life's fine. Probably better than most people I'd say, thank you.


----------



## cgf

The irony of Evilo trying to call someone else a liar is just too rich


----------



## Evilo

cgf said:


> The irony of Evilo trying to call someone else a liar is just too rich



And yet true. You both have lied repeatedly in this thead, I haven't.
I've even linked to your lies.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> And yet true. You both have lied repeatedly in this thead, I haven't.
> I've even linked to your lies.




Are you seriously lying about the post you found that proved yourself to be a liar even though we can all click on it and see what it actually proves? wow, even for you that's ridiculous


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> Umtiti : I always said he was a nice prospect, but also said I didn't feel he was ready for Barca. He proved me wrong, and showed his class.
> Also in development years.
> No hypocrisy because I never said he was good overnight. I only said it recently. After way more than 9 full games with Barca. To make the comparison is laughable.
> Guerreiro had 9 90 minutes BL games. Enough said.
> 
> As for Mendy, again, development years. Always had crazy offensive talent, as can be shown from his OM years under Bielsa, but lacked consistency defensively.
> As for knowing where he stands now, he'd need to play this year to be rated properly.
> But I still remember two posters here saying Guerreiro was better. Fun, fun, fun.
> Just like that Weigl/Dahoud partnership who was best in the world.
> 
> Anyway, I'm done with this, you can't even write proper arguments, lying about me talking about Mendy and Umiti. Maybe next time you should read the posts before making things up. To say I never talked about Mendy before is fun. Same with me saying I rated Umiti overnight while it took me two years to say he was good enough.




So where are these posts about Mendy you made? You love to point to your past predictions; where are they? 

Your obsession with "full 90 minute matches" is hilariously weak and beside the point.


----------



## Evilo

I have no idea, search yourself. People here can tell you it's true. 
Obsession? Come on ! WC player ! Key player ! 
9 full matches.
NINE.

So besides the point


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> I have no idea, search yourself. People here can tell you it's true.
> Obsession? Come on ! WC player ! Key player !
> 9 full matches.
> NINE.
> 
> So besides the point




As I told you, I did search. You didn't mention him before last fall, my friend. 

Yes, quite beside the point.


----------



## cgf

Shame you don't ever watch the BuLi, the football is very attractive and maybe then you could have something of value to contribute to this thread.


----------



## Evilo

You fully know the searches have been reseted.

Anyone here for years can tell you I wrote about him.
In fact, since you're here since 2011, you either didn't read about it, or you choose to lie about it.
I talked about him when he was with Le Havre and also when he was with OM.


----------



## Evilo

cgf said:


> Shame you don't ever watch the BuLi,



Yeah, that's not true either.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> Yeah, that's not true either.



Really? Then why don't you ever acknowledge that certain players have developed since leaving france? Why do you double down when you say something blatantly false so often? You are too knowledgeable about the sport to watch the BuLi and say the things you've said, so I just can't believe that.


----------



## Evilo

Have I said so about Pavard?
Have I said Zagadou sucked?
Or all the other french players?

Just because I don't buy into the overrating going on here with anything BVB doesn't mean I lie. On the contrary I'd say.


----------



## HajdukSplit

Why is Stoger getting this many chances with Koln? I understand he's done a good job in his time with Koln (promotion and Euro qualification) but they haven't won a league match and it's almost December!


----------



## cgf

I mean, it's not like you've sang Pavard's praises...although he hasn't exactly deserved much praise so that's an odd example to bring up in this context anyway.

The prime example is Auba, who's unrecognizable from the player who came to germany. Yet you consistently criticize him for the player he was in France. It is impossible for you not to see his progress if you actually watched him


----------



## cgf

HajdukSplit said:


> Why is Stoger getting this many chances with Koln? I understand he's done a good job in his time with Koln (promotion and Euro qualification) but they haven't won a league match and it's almost December!




Because he stabilized them as a first league club. That club was as much of a mess as HSV for years before.


----------



## Evilo

cgf said:


> I mean, it's not like you've sang Pavard's praises...although he hasn't exactly deserved much praise so that's an odd example to bring up in this context anyway.
> 
> The prime example is Auba, who's unrecognizable from the player who came to germany. Yet you consistently criticize him for the player he was in France. It is impossible for you not to see his progress if you actually watched him



As I told you many times, Auba is in the right situation to make the most out of his strengths. Doesn't make him the striker some here are claiming him to be.
Hardly unrecognizable. He's the same. On a team that fits him.

As for the Pavard example, he was extremely solid when he played for France, which surprised me. So I'm guessing he's developping well. Never got to see him play in the BL, except for a half where he wasn't good at all.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

What if Auba played for Monaco?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Evilo said:


> As I told you many times, Auba is in the right situation to make the most out of his strengths. Doesn't make him the striker some here are claiming him to be.
> Hardly unrecognizable. He's the same. On a team that fits him.




Bosz system certainly does not fit him.


----------



## Evilo

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> What if Auba played for Monaco?



Haha, he played for Monaco.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I'm talking about now, not 7 years ago.

I don't know why you act like he's barely improved. He's not a complete striker, but the goal totals don't lie. The Dortmund system doesn't even fit him well, yet he has 17 goals in 19 games in all comps.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Köln lost again. 
No team EVER was worse after 13 games played. Even Tasmania Berlin was better.

SC Tasmania 1900 Berlin - Wikipedia

1. Bundesliga 1965/66, der 13. Spieltag


----------



## Ducks76

HajdukSplit said:


> Why is Stoger getting this many chances with Koln? I understand he's done a good job in his time with Koln (promotion and Euro qualification) but they haven't won a league match and it's almost December!



Maybe they act in the Winterbreak. Labbadia and Lothar Matthäus are waiting  .


----------



## Ducks76

A litte Preview for next Gameday(14th,1st Dec - 3rd Dec). 3 particular pairings.A game with entertaining potential is Bayer 04 Leverkusen vs Borussia Dortmund. It could be the last game for Peter Bosz. Bayer 04 is in good form an Volland scores,scores and scores .
Köln could be expand their negative record. I couldn t imagine that the "domstädter" get points vs Schalke.
Bayern is a clearly favorite vs Hannover.


----------



## Hadoop

Auba has improved more or less every year at BvB. Is he a top-5 striker in the world? Probably not. But is he top 10? Probably.


----------



## Power Man




----------



## Deficient Mode

Schalke is currently selling shirts that say "Derby Winner" on them

They've burned themselves far harder than anyone from Dortmund could with that one


----------



## cgf

Hadoop said:


> Auba has improved more or less every year at BvB. Is he a top-5 striker in the world? Probably not. But is he top 10? Probably.




Yep. His #s haven't just improved the player has improved. He's much more clinical with his chances, his nose for goal has improved as his off the ball runs are extremely clever and not just predicated on his immense physical gifts, and he's become a better player technically (his interplay with other attackers and midfielders is night & day from the player who first landed in Dortmund).

Denying the evolution in his game would be shocking if I hadn't seen Evilo deny it time & time again.



Bon Esprit said:


> Köln lost again.
> No team EVER was worse after 13 games played. Even Tasmania Berlin was better.
> 
> SC Tasmania 1900 Berlin - Wikipedia
> 
> 1. Bundesliga 1965/66, der 13. Spieltag




That's truly shocking. That Tasmania season was one that no one would ever challenge, yet here we sit 13 games in and a team is actually doing worse than them.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Funny, this morning welt-online also "discovered" Tasmania.
1. FC Köln ist sogar schlechter als Tasmania Berlin - WELT

One thing is sure: Tasmania's record of less than 900 spectators at a Bundesliga game will stand forever. And for now Köln lose their games by small margins (1 or 2 goals), not like Tasmania by 5 or 6.


----------



## Bon Esprit

I just read Mario Götze is injured, out until January.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> I just read Mario Götze is injured, out until January.




Sigh


----------



## Bon Esprit

Bon Esprit said:


> I just read Mario Götze is injured, out until January.



Bild confirms
BVB-Profi Mario Götze fällt verletzt mit Bänderteilriss die Bundesliga-Hiinrunde aus

Partial rupture of the ligament in the ankle


----------



## Deficient Mode

At least most of the time he'll be out they'll be on break anyway. He has been Dortmund's best player this season. Hopefully Dahoud will get a chance I guess.


----------



## cgf

Maybe now they'll be forced to play Dahoud and become a much more dangerous team


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Maybe now they'll be forced to play Dahoud and become a much more dangerous team




Maybe they'll be more dangerous if Dahoud establishes himself and can't be benched when Götze comes back. I don't like subtracting Götze for Dahoud straight up.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Maybe they'll be more dangerous if Dahoud establishes himself and can't be benched when Götze comes back. I don't like subtracting Götze for Dahoud straight up.




Depends on what happens behind the bench. If Bosz is fired something like:

Philipp - Auba - Yarmo
Raphael - Weigl - Dahoud - Pulisic
Toprak - Sokratis - Bartra​
Would be more dangerous than what you've been rolling out, even if Mario is a huge loss given his form this season.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Caligiuri should've been sent off, he caught him right on the ankle, already was on a yellow for a handball, completely got away with it.

I doubt Dahoud gets much game time. Maybe in the UCL game thats meaningless. In the league matches, I think we'll see Weigl, Kagawa and Sahin/Castro. Dahoud might now make the bench though.

Goetze had been playing so well, its really too bad he got injured, although he shouldn't miss too many games.


----------



## cgf

I think Mo will get in soon. Either because Bosz will be forced to play him to try and save his job, or because Bosz will be fired for someone less insane.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

cgf said:


> I think Mo will get in soon. Either because Bosz will be forced to play him to try and save his job, or because Bosz will be fired for someone less insane.




I'd rather keep Bosz, sack him after the season, sign Nagelsmann, hopefully Bavaria wants Tedesco because if they want Nagelsmann, they'll get him, and we certainly are not getting Tedesco.


----------



## cgf

Nagelsmann is going to Bayern, they want him and already reached out to him before bringing Jupp back to finish out this season. The only chance he doesn't end up in Bavaria is if Leipzig offers him an absolutely absurd sum of money to turn their young talent into a true powerhouse.


----------



## Deficient Mode

There's no obvious successor to Bosz. The available coaches aside from Tuchel are meh. I'd settle for someone who can play a good counterpressing game and hope that the offensive synergy that Tuchel and to a lesser extent Bosz taught the players can carry over. Maybe someone like Hannes Wolf.

Bosz has shown that his up-and-down style is suited for a mid- or low-table team but with his continual failure to fix the defensive structural problems, I don't think he's suited for a big club.


----------



## Nalens Oga

The BVB board doesn't seem to recognize that they don't need a successor to Bosz this season, they just need a competent interim replacement to keep them in a CL spot and that definitely does exist and they needed it 2 match-days ago.

I'm not complaining though, more entertainment as a non-BVB fan.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

We aren't getting Wolf now, maybe in the offseason.

Offseason:

1. Nagelsmann
2. Favre
3. Wolf
4. Outside the box

Are there any good managers in lower divisions? Thats how Schalke got Tedesco.


----------



## Evilo

They'll get Favre. Few chance Nice keeps him right now.


----------



## cgf

Favre deserves better than to have to deal with Watzke


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> We aren't getting Wolf now, maybe in the offseason.
> 
> Offseason:
> 
> 1. Nagelsmann
> 2. Favre
> 3. Wolf
> 4. Outside the box
> 
> Are there any good managers in lower divisions? Thats how Schalke got Tedesco.




There are promising managers in the second division but I have to think they'll be more conservative now after Bosz and go for a more proven, less unknown manager.


----------



## cgf

Nagelsmann ---> FCB
Hecking ---> BVB
Tuchel ---> BMG
Favre ---> Leipzig

Works for me


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> Nagelsmann ---> FCB
> Hecking ---> BVB
> Tuchel ---> BMG
> Favre ---> Leipzig
> 
> Works for me




I'm not buying this Nagelsmann to Bayern stuff. He has achieved nothing yet. I don't think Bayern works that way. Remember Klinsmann?
If Bayern take a German it might be Tuchel.
Nagelsmann to BvB on the other hand could fit.
BMG and Red Bull don't need no coaches.
Favre don't have a good rep. since his leaving from BMG IMO.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> I'm not buying this Nagelsmann to Bayern stuff. He has achieved nothing yet. I don't think Bayern works that way. Remember Klinsmann?
> If Bayern take a German it might be Tuchel.
> Nagelsmann to BvB on the other hand could fit.
> BMG and Red Bull don't need no coaches.
> Favre don't have a good rep. since his leaving from BMG IMO.




Nagelsmann is a great coach and Bayern have already held advanced talks with him. And Tuchel would never work there if he couldn't get along with Watzke & co.

RB absolutely needs a new coach as Hassenhuttl is incapable of structuring their possession game against any team that defends deeply against them. They desperately need someone to build an identity to their possession play.

BMG could do with an upgrade on Hecking. He's been fine, but his tactics under-utilize their talent and he's not the great teacher Favre was...who absolutely still has a sterling reputation, especially after his tremendous work with Nice. He was on BVB's shortlist to replace Tuchel and has appeared next to Tuchel on the shortlist for a few clubs who've been exploring a change behind the bench.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> I'm not buying this Nagelsmann to Bayern stuff. He has achieved nothing yet. I don't think Bayern works that way. Remember Klinsmann?
> If Bayern take a German it might be Tuchel.
> Nagelsmann to BvB on the other hand could fit.
> BMG and Red Bull don't need no coaches.
> Favre don't have a good rep. since his leaving from BMG IMO.




Nagelsmann to Bayern has been telegraphed in the media for a long while now imo. He's way more proven in the effect he can have on a team than Tuchel was when he went to BVB despite the hype around his tactical acumen. They just turned down Tuchel as a permanent replacement like a month ago. I don't know what will have changed by the summer. Bayern can choose anyone they want and they won't touch Tuchel with the questions around his scorched earth personality.

Favre's reputation hasn't suffered in France at all. The super bad start his last year in Gladbach won't have damaged him long-term.

Tuchel to United or Chelsea

Nagelsmann to Bayern

Favre to BVB

Hasenhüttl to stay put.

Seems most likely to me.


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> Nagelsmann is a great coach and Bayern have already held advanced talks with him. And Tuchel would never work there if he couldn't get along with Watzke & co.
> 
> RB absolutely needs a new coach as Hassenhuttl is incapable of structuring their possession game against any team that defends deeply against them. They desperately need someone to build an identity to their possession play.
> 
> BMG could do with an upgrade on Hecking. He's been fine, but his tactics under-utilize their talent and he's not the great teacher Favre was...who absolutely still has a sterling reputation, especially after his tremendous work with Nice. He was on BVB's shortlist to replace Tuchel and has appeared next to Tuchel on the shortlist for a few clubs who've been exploring a change behind the bench.




Yes, Nagelsmann is good, but not proven. Maybe he will some day coach Bayern, but I don't believe he will be their next coach.
Hoeneß just wanted to convince Jupp to stay longer than just this season.
YOU think RB and BMG need new coaches, As long as RB and Gladbach continue to have success their management might think otherwise.

Leaving BMG after a couple of games hit Favre's reputation. No doubt, but since Nice ain't so good anymore he indeed might be BvB's next coach. Maybe.


----------



## cgf

I would love for Bayern to convince Jupp to stay for another season while they wait for Löw; letting Nagelsmann slip through their fingers to BVB or RB because he's "not proven enough". That would truly be hilarious.


----------



## Evilo

Nice is 16th. Favre has been solved for the most part.


----------



## Bon Esprit

FWIW this is what focus reports one hour ago:
BVB-Plan ohne Bosz: Neuanfang mit Nagelsmann – Veh oder Hrubesch als Übergang? - Bundesliga

That's the plan according to focus:
Bosz out, Veh or Hrubesch for the rest of the season and then Nagelsmann.
Favre or Stöger were options last summer, but not anymore.


----------



## YNWA14

I wonder which club would win the battle for Nagelsmann between Bayern and BVB.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Curtinho said:


> I wonder which club would win the battle for Nagelsmann between Bayern and BVB.



If I was Nagelsmann I'd pick Dortmund for sure. At this stage of his career it would be the logical choice.


----------



## Cassano

Bon Esprit said:


> If I was Nagelsmann I'd pick Dortmund for sure. At this stage of his career it would be the logical choice.



Why is that? The opportunity to coach Bayern is a project a manager shouldn't turn down IMO.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Hrubesch would be a good choice for temporary manager. 

Veh would be a bad choice.


----------



## Bon Esprit

All Might said:


> Why is that? The opportunity to coach Bayern is a project a manager shouldn't turn down IMO.



Nagelsmann is 30 yo, choaches for 1 1/2 years in the Bundesliga. No matter how talented he is, if I was him I'd pick a top team in the league that "only" needs a CL spot and some succes on the international stage (quartelfinals for example).
If he chooses Bayern he needs to win from day one on, win the league every year and reach at lest the semis in CL. I'd choose that pressure later in my career.


----------



## Hadoop

Would probably still pick Bayern if I was Nagelsmann. He'd be reunited with arguably his two best players from Hoffenheim last year.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> Hrubesch would be a good choice for temporary manager.
> 
> Veh would be a bad choice.



As much as I like Hrubesch, he is 66 yo and didn't coach a club since 97.
Not saying Veh would be a better choice.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Neither option is great, Hrubesch seems a better option though. Would rather the U-19 coach Hoffmann than Veh for interim manager.


----------



## Just Win

Curtinho said:


> I wonder which club would win the battle for Nagelsmann between Bayern and BVB.




Considering Nagelsmann is building a house in Munich and his family will move there once it's done, there shouldn't really be any debate about this.


----------



## YNWA14

I was being sarcastic. I'm fairly confident almost any coach would take Bayern over Dortmund and that's not a slight against Dortmund.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Nagelsmann is 30 yo, choaches for 1 1/2 years in the Bundesliga. No matter how talented he is, if I was him I'd pick a top team in the league that "only" needs a CL spot and some succes on the international stage (quartelfinals for example).
> If he chooses Bayern he needs to win from day one on, win the league every year and reach at lest the semis in CL. I'd choose that pressure later in my career.




Hoffenheim has been almost on par with Dortmund in Bundesliga performance in his time there. Remarkable turnaround from dead last. I think he has done enough to prove he's ready for Bayern. Tuchel's Mainz was more of a midtable performer by comparison.


----------



## Ducks76

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> We aren't getting Wolf now, maybe in the offseason.
> 
> Offseason:
> 
> 1. Nagelsmann
> 2. Favre
> 3. Wolf
> 4. Outside the box
> 
> Are there any good managers in lower divisions? Thats how Schalke got Tedesco.



Yes! Frank Schmidt(Heidenheim),Jens Keller(Union) and Markus Anfang(Kiel) are good coaches.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Hoffenheim has been almost on par with Dortmund in Bundesliga performance in his time there. Remarkable turnaround from dead last. I think he has done enough to prove he's ready for Bayern. Tuchel's Mainz was more of a midtable performer by comparison.




The only thing anyone can say against Nagelsmann is his age. Which is a silly thing to try and use against the best coach in Germany since pep left.


----------



## cgf

Ducks76 said:


> Yes! Frank Schmidt(Heidenheim),Jens Keller(Union) and Markus Anfang(Kiel) are good coaches.




I’m not sure how much of Kiel’s unbelievable debut hinrunde is on the coach and how much is on the young talent they have on their roster with all of loans and their own academy products.

And Heidenheim are well organized against the ball but their possession game can be drab & without solutions...which doesn’t quite seam like a trait that a modern coach can have without it limiting him from the top jobs.


----------



## Stray Wasp

cgf said:


> The only thing anyone can say against Nagelsmann is his age. Which is a silly thing to try and use against the best coach in Germany since pep left.




Quite so.

If you go back to prehistoric days, Bayern put Udo Lattek in charge aged just thirty-five, and with far less experience to his name than Nagelsmann. His career didn't turn out too badly.

In the last decade it's been suggested by a few observers that coaching has become such an in-depth occupation that in some ways it may be better suited to those without much in the way of playing careers, who are therefore better suited to keep up with new methods than retired players set in rusty ways.

There's also the proposition that the ever-increasing changes in society have turned the erstwhile gap between generations into a gulf. Which poses ever-greater challenges for an older coach if they wish to build a rapport with their players. (And the desperation of clubs to grab starlets young, before their price reaches scores of millions, can drive down the median age of dressing rooms, exacerbating the trend).

If we give the above theories any kind of credence, one logical solution is to hand coaches in their early-to-mid thirties the reins of senior teams.


----------



## Ducks76

cgf said:


> I’m not sure how much of Kiel’s unbelievable debut hinrunde is on the coach and how much is on the young talent they have on their roster with all of loans and their own academy products.
> 
> And Heidenheim are well organized against the ball but their possession game can be drab & without solutions...which doesn’t quite seam like a trait that a modern coach can have without it limiting him from the top jobs.



Frank Schmidt took over Heidenheim 2007 in 5 th Tier. Since 10 Years from 5th in 2nd tier.With a better squad he could play modern style. I remember Heidenheim in 3. Liga. They played very well and attractive Footbol. Schmidt is very flexible and a very good motivator with great social skills.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Gladbach has said no Winter transfers planned....er what!? You're in prime position to stake your claim to a slightly unexpected CL spot this season. If they beat Schalke next weekend then they'd be stupid to not go out and upgrade either the centre of defence or bring in a proper no.10.

Also, Muller's back tomorrow and apparently James is good to go ^_^


----------



## cgf

Nalens Oga said:


> Gladbach has said no Winter transfers planned....er what!? You're in prime position to stake your claim to a slightly unexpected CL spot this season. If they beat Schalke next weekend then they'd be stupid to not go out and upgrade either the centre of defence or bring in a proper no.10.
> 
> Also, Muller's back tomorrow and apparently James is good to go ^_^




Max Eberl >>>>>>

CBs and AMs are the last thing they need to be spending money on in the winter if they did decide to waste some of the reserves that they've put so much care & effort into building up. Vestegaard has really matured into a tough SOB that can move the ball smoothly and Elvedi is playing as well as Christensen ever did. With Ginter around as the #3 CB; Strobl & Jantschke both being solid make-shift CBs in case of emergencies; and their stud prospects moving ever closer to senior football (Doucoure, Hanraths & Bongard); spending any money on a CB would be absolutely idiotic.

What they need is a young stud forward that they can groom take over for Raffa...someone like Eggestein, Kühn (if he leaves RB in the summer as some expect), or Arp would be absolutely perfect...they need FBs because Wendt is about 38 billion years old, Jantschke has the body of a 38 billion year old, and Hecking hasn't utilized a back three with wingbacks where Traore / Johnson / Herrmann could join that rotation; and they could use a super stud young winger. None of whom they'll be able to find good deals for during the winter; and BMG is not a club that can spend its money frivolously.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Phillipp Hurt


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Is nobody watching?

Common guys this is the Dortmund thread watch the game


----------



## Deficient Mode

Subotic lmao


----------



## 555Upstairs

That was a crazy couple of minutes in Munich holy ****


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

I want to get off Mr. Bosz wild ride


----------



## Savi

Bailey is really good


----------



## Deficient Mode

Watch Dortmund still have no confidence with Wendell off


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

straight red for the team in red


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Deficient Mode said:


> Watch Dortmund still have no confidence with Wendell off




Of course. I'd expect nothing less from Bosz.


----------



## Deficient Mode

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Of course. I'd expect nothing less from Bosz.




It's not only on him. It's a problem if he can't fully motivate the players, but the players need to be better too.


----------



## Cassano

Nice control by Coman on that goal.


----------



## 555Upstairs

All Might said:


> Nice control by Coman on that goal.



Coman's performance has been great, probably Bayern's best player today


----------



## Deficient Mode

45 minutes of 11 vs 10 and Leverkusen were still the better team. If Wendell hadn't been an idiot, they would have surely been looking at 3 points.

Bürki and Kagawa were the only players I thought played well.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Is nobody watching?
> 
> Common guys this is the Dortmund thread watch the game




Nope, slept through the first half and first 15 of the second half, glad I did when I saw Subotic was in the lineup. Disgusting. Him and Sokratis rotated dumb, slow reaction plays for the 30 minutes I watched. We can't break down a bunker, no surprise. Sahin has never used his right foot, he telegraphs everything. Nice to see Dahoud get a game.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Problem with breaking down the bunker was mostly on awful coordination between attackers than on Subotic and Sokratis imo. Not that the back line were good. Polar opposite of Tuchel where attacking moves seemed almost scripted to an extremely minute level sometimes with the short corners, players stepping over the ball allowing it to run through their feet to another teammate, and balls lofted over defenders' heads. No coordination at all some games.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I was talking about Subotic and Sokratis out of possession towards the end of the game. They are up a man, less defending, less players to defend, yet they are getting beat over the top, fouling, losing headers. I don't know if today was some type of punishment for Bartra, Toprak and Zagadou, I'd hope Subotic hasn't actually joined the CB rotation. Subotic should never step foot on the field for Dortmund again, you are asking to throw away points to play him instead of one of those three. We are stuck with Sokratis in the lineup until we get a new coach, Bosz seems to like Sokratis.

It didn't help breaking down the bunker that we had no Goetze who is the team's most creative and technical player. I thought Dahoud helped a little bit, should've come on earlier, but this is also a coach who benches him for Castro and often doesn't include him in the squad, so why would I expect him to come on earlier?

Whatever, I'll take the point on the road against a good side, we'll make the UCL for next season, and then we can sack Bosz after the season. If the interim options aren't any good, keep Bosz for the rest of the season. It seems like the coaching options for next season are Nagelsmann and Wolf. Nagelsmann if Bayern chooses someone else, Wolf if they don't. Both are good options.


----------



## cgf

If Hecking can continue BMG's road-winning streak against his old club tomorrow, the cooler Borussia will take over 2nd


----------



## Bon Esprit

!. FC Köln kick out Peter Stöger. Good, it was clear it would happen. Only good part is that now I can dislike them again with a passion.
Tasmania was better!


----------



## Bon Esprit

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Phillipp Hurt



According to kicker Castro and Philipp might be out for longer time.
Längere Pausen drohen: Sorgen um Philipp und Castro


----------



## LemmyUlanov55

Not that the kick out of Stöger wasn't long overdue, but doing this right after a pretty good performance and a tie against S04 is just so Köln like. Schmadke gone, Stöger gone, time for the usual FC to shine, lol.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Get Bosz out, get Stoeger in.


----------



## 555Upstairs

LemmyUlanov55 said:


> Not that the kick out of Stöger wasn't long overdue, but *doing this right after a pretty good performance and a tie against S04 is just so Köln like.* Schmadke gone, Stöger gone, time for the usual FC to shine, lol.



According to Stöger they had already decided to part ways on Friday and Schalke was just kind of a farewell game for him, which is in fact not very Köln-like at all.


----------



## LemmyUlanov55

555Upstairs said:


> According to Stöger they had already decided to part ways on Friday and Schalke was just kind of a farewell game for him, which is in fact not very Köln-like at all.



Yeah, I've read it aswell. On the other hand it's pro sports, you never know what's true or just a made up comment to make both sides more comfy about decisions.


----------



## 555Upstairs

LemmyUlanov55 said:


> Yeah, I've read it aswell. On the other hand it's pro sports, you never know what's true or just a made up comment to make both sides more comfy about decisions.



That's for sure but in this particular case, given all the circumstances, I tend to believe this story.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Get Bosz out, get Stoeger in.




I wouldn't want him on anything more than a temporary basis.


----------



## cgf

I do wonder if having Stöger come in after Tuchel n Bosz might not work out a little like Jupp coming in after LvG or Hecking coming in after Favre n Schubert. Stöger is clearly not a creative enough coach to build up a possession identity for his team; but maybe he can come in to a team that already has an established possession identity and give them the defensive cohesion that has sabotaged their possession game since Tuchel left?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> I wouldn't want him on anything more than a temporary basis.




Yeah, temporary basis, thats what I meant. 

Next season. 

1. Nagelsmann
2. Wolf


----------



## Bon Esprit

Union fire Jens Keller!
What? Why? They are 4th.
Union Berlin feuert überraschend Trainer Jens Keller: Ich bin geschockt


----------



## Deficient Mode

Keller on a temporary basis to Dortmund could be ok too.



cgf said:


> I do wonder if having Stöger come in after Tuchel n Bosz might not work out a little like Jupp coming in after LvG or Hecking coming in after Favre n Schubert. Stöger is clearly not a creative enough coach to build up a possession identity for his team; but maybe he can come in to a team that already has an established possession identity and give them the defensive cohesion that has sabotaged their possession game since Tuchel left?




I would have hoped so with a coach like Stöger or Hecking but it seems increasingly to me that unlike Bayern the team has lost its possession identity because it has also lost the players responsible for that identity. Look at their attackers who have played the most this season: other than Aubameyang, Castro (neither of whom were really particularly important in Dortmund's possession play) and arguably Pulisic none of them were first choices/regulars under Tuchel for one reason or another. The creativity in possession has also taken a hit under Bosz, and the players look out of sync with each other in many games. I think they need to shore up the defense and defensive strategy far more right now and much of the individual creativity of Götze, Kagawa, and Dahoud will remain, but I don't think bringing in Stöger would be like having Tuchel but also having a great defense. Getting the right coach to balance the team and give them a temporary boost like Schubert in Gladbach (only in reverse, from offensive craziness to defensive stability) should stabilize them in a top 4 spot for next year.


----------



## cgf

I'm a little scared to find out the real reasons for Keller's dismissal. Yes we've been inconsistent these last few weeks and have important matches coming up; but that's clearly just the public spin on his firing.


----------



## Bon Esprit

According to kicker Armin Veh will replace Jörg Schmadtke at 1.FC Köln.

No Dortmund.
Kölner Suche beendet: Armin Veh wird Schmadtkes Nachfolger


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> According to kicker Armin Veh will replace Jörg Schmadtke at 1.FC Köln.
> 
> No Dortmund.
> Kölner Suche beendet: Armin Veh wird Schmadtkes Nachfolger




Good.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Oh boy, ZDF is rather showing RB tonight than the Dortmund game.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Oh boy, ZDF is rather showing RB tonight than the Dortmund game.




RB have something to play for. Dortmund don't.


----------



## NJ07102

Both games are of zero importance, so it doesn't really matter which one they show.


----------



## Deficient Mode

NJ07102 said:


> Both games are of zero importance, so it doesn't really matter which one they show.




Leipzig is tied on points with Porto with their advancement to the knockouts in question.... how is their game of zero importance???


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> RB have something to play for. Dortmund don't.



How many of the not sky or whatever users would watch Dortmund and how many would watch RB? BvB is still the 2nd biggest club in Germany televisiom-wise.

Plus they are playing Real not Besiktas like RB.


----------



## cgf

I'd rather watch Leipzig.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> How many of the not sky or whatever users would watch Dortmund and how many would watch RB? BvB is still the 2nd biggest club in Germany televisiom-wise.
> 
> Plus they are playing Real not Besiktas like RB.




How many Dortmund fans are so despondent they feel reluctant to watch their own team? That's how I feel.

Obviously they have way more fans than Leipzig but if I were a neutral I'd want to watch Leipzig probably.


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> How many Dortmund fans are so despondent they feel reluctant to watch their own team? That's how I feel.
> 
> Obviously they have way more fans than Leipzig but if I were a neutral I'd want to watch Leipzig probably.



Klopp still loves you.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> Klopp still loves you.




I know you're unhappy with him, but I would take Klopp back in a heartbeat right now. Just what Dortmund could use.


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> I know you're unhappy with him, but I would take Klopp back in a heartbeat right now. Just what Dortmund could use.



I’m not unhappy, I am simply content. Which isn’t enough when half of the fan base wants to build statues of him. I wish he could put a trophy in the cabinet this season and/or make the CL back to back years (at least). Then we are cool.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Two players who can't keep up themselves are requesting their friend is put into the side? No.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Christ. Sahin and Schmelzer want the team to look like it did in 2010. I've defended their spots in the squad before but this is ridiculous. What a pair of whiners.


----------



## NJ07102

Deficient Mode said:


> Leipzig is tied on points with Porto with their advancement to the knockouts in question.... how is their game of zero importance???




Because for Leipzig to get through, Porto would have to lose or tie Monaco, which was never going to happen. In addition to that it is a total waste of time to watch any german team internationally except Bayern, because none of the other teams is competitive in any way. Bundesliga is in deep, deep trouble with this one team dominance and the rest losing their best players year after year. I wonder when the attendance figures will start to drop like a stone. Why spend money for something that is as exciting as watching snow melt? The only thing that is interesting is relegation, even the international spots are not interesting because german teams drop out like flies anyway.


----------



## Deficient Mode

NJ07102 said:


> Because for Leipzig to get through, Porto would have to lose or tie Monaco, which was never going to happen. In addition to that it is a total waste of time to watch any german team internationally except Bayern, because none of the other teams is competitive in any way. Bundesliga is in deep, deep trouble with this one team dominance and the rest losing their best players year after year. I wonder when the attendance figures will start to drop like a stone. Why spend money for something that is as exciting as watching snow melt? The only thing that is interesting is relegation, even the international spots are not interesting because german teams drop out like flies anyway.




Bundesliga attendance figures are going to drop because the teams can't compete internationally? I mean, 10 years ago when German teams totally sucked and the Bundesliga had fallen behind Ligue 1 in coefficient, Bundesliga stadiums were filled to 85.6% capacity on average. In 2013/14, at the peak of the Bundesliga's international relevance, the stadiums were filled to 91% capacity on average. So far this year they're 91% filled to capacity. I don't expect a catastrophic fall in attendance at all; domestic attendance isn't really affected by international relevance.

The rest of your post is just unfounded panic and recency bias. If you really think Leipzig and Dortmund are in long-term trouble internationally and won't be able to make it out of their CL groups in the future, go ahead I guess. I'm not too worried. So far it looks like the top 6 next year will be bigger clubs with better recent international records. None of the likes of Hertha and Köln.


----------



## NJ07102

Deficient Mode said:


> The rest of your post is just unfounded panic and recency bias.




Recency bias... I give you as much as at least we had two teams that were somehow competitive in the past. In the EL, Bundesliga has been a total disaster forever basically. You have to go back to 2010 to see somebody in the semis, when HSV lost to Fulham and Bremen lost the final before that. It makes no difference if we see Hertha or Schalke or Leverkusen or Hoffenheim in the EL next year. None of these clubs seem to be able to build a 3rd force for longer than a year. Hoffenheim didn't lose a home game in ages until mighty Braga came along. 

I've been watching Bundesliga for ages and have been to hundreds of games. Maybe I am spoiled by the times of M'gladbach or Bremen or Lautern, when international games were still real highlights and teams were competitive even when playing good opponents. Now Bundesliga teams lose to anybody. It is time to realize that something is seriously wrong in this league. Bayern dominance is one thing, but the lousy work by everybody else is another. Heck yeah, so Tuchel wasn't nice and pissed people off. But at least he knew what he was doing.


----------



## Deficient Mode

NJ07102 said:


> Recency bias... I give you as much as at least we had two teams that were somehow competitive in the past. In the EL, Bundesliga has been a total disaster forever basically. You have to go back to 2010 to see somebody in the semis, when HSV lost to Fulham and Bremen lost the final before that. It makes no difference if we see Hertha or Schalke or Leverkusen or Hoffenheim in the EL next year. None of these clubs seem to be able to build a 3rd force for longer than a year. Hoffenheim didn't lose a home game in ages until mighty Braga came along.
> 
> I've been watching Bundesliga for ages and have been to hundreds of games. Maybe I am spoiled by the times of M'gladbach or Bremen or Lautern, when international games were still real highlights and teams were competitive even when playing good opponents. Now Bundesliga teams lose to anybody. It is time to realize that something is seriously wrong in this league. Bayern dominance is one thing, but the lousy work by everybody else is another. Heck yeah, so Tuchel wasn't nice and pissed people off. But at least he knew what he was doing.




Hoffenheim also lost at home against Liverpool.

I agree that the league lacks a stable top 6 like the EPL has, and you get years like this sometimes as a result. The smaller teams like Freiburg, Mainz, Köln that make the EL always fail hard, yeah. And aside from maybe 3 clubs, the rest will struggle to do well in Europe AND stay afloat in the league. I'm still confident Leipzig will be a third regular force. Their CL campaign was maybe a disappointment this year, but they did way better than Dortmund in their first year back in the competition. They can build up their coefficient in the EL in hopes of a better draw next year, too.

I don't think what you're talking about is exclusive to German teams, either. The gap between the best teams and the rest has grown tremendously even in the past 10 years. It makes it harder for secondary teams not to get embarrassed.


----------



## NJ07102

Deficient Mode said:


> I don't think what you're talking about is exclusive to German teams, either. The gap between the best teams and the rest has grown tremendously even in the past 10 years. It makes it harder for secondary teams not to get embarrassed.




Many Spanish teams do well in the EL year after year, and many of those don't have the funds that some of the german teams have. Sevilla will never become Spanish champions though, not as long as Barcelona or Real leave the league. But nevertheless these teams are "best of the rest" so to say and are highly competitive in Europe. I believe there are clubs in Germany that have the potential to be as good, but they do not work as well as teams in Spain do. If you look at EL results you will find that even teams from Portugal have been way more successful than the Bundesliga teams. It is not "just" about money here, it is about working badly and trying to copy Klopp-Football with pressing and quick counter attacks.

I also do not see it as a strength for the league that year after year the teams between 3 and 15 interchange completely. I believe clubs like Schalke, Leverkusen, Hoffenheim and others would have the potential to be a solid 2nd tier club year after year, but they don't utilize it. Then you have these one year wonders that get a EL-Spot only to get relegated the year after. Like Köln: They let their one really good player go, get no one to replace him and consequently sink like a stone. That is simply unprofessional management.


----------



## Albatros

Interesting thoughts from Freiburg striker Nils Petersen regarding intelligence of footballers:

Petersen über geistiges Niveau im Fußball: Ich verblöde seit zehn Jahren


----------



## cgf

Gotta love the sky-is-falling folks. Surprised we didn't hear about how german youth football is in dire straits because we only won the Confed Cup & U21s.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I don't think he's wrong. I'm sure most aren't naturally stupid people, they just dropped out of school early, some high level footballers probably didn't even attend school. And for those that did attend school, how much attention did they put into their school-work when they were in school? When you have a profession that is more about physical capabilities than mental capabilities, what do you expect? I can't imagine the schooling in some countries that produce a lot of good footballers is all that good either. You pretty much can't get regular schooling past like 18 and end up one of the best in the world at your position. Its like two full time jobs, not enough time to do both.


----------



## cgf

My comment was not in response to albatros. Footballers are really dumb & that's widely known.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

cgf said:


> My comment was not in response to albatros. Footballers are really dumb & that's widely known.




I wasn't responding to you.  I was responding under his post, and yours was 2 minutes before mine. It wasn't there when I started my response.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Many footballers are stupid in a way that goes way past their lack of education. Though Petersen does seem to be mostly talking about a lack of education.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Many footballers are stupid in a way that goes way past their lack of education. Though Petersen does seem to be mostly talking about a lack of education.




It's a big part of my love for Kramer. In a sport filled with dumb dumbs he's not just eloquent but insightful.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> It's a big part of my love for Kramer. In a sport filled with dumb dumbs he's not just eloquent but insightful.




What about Max Kruse though? I guess you have to have some calculation power in your brain to be a successful poker player, but otherwise...


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> What about Max Kruse though? I guess you have to have some calculation power in your brain to be a successful poker player, but otherwise...



Poker has nothing to do with education. Poker is math. Pot odds and stuff. You don't need to know who Nietzsche was and what he wrote.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Poker has nothing to do with education. Poker is math. Pot odds and stuff. You don't need to know who Nietzsche was and what he wrote.




Well, I wasn't talking about education but intelligence, and I'm fully aware Kruse comes off as an idiot.


----------



## YNWA14

I wouldn't say footballers are dumb. Most are just uneducated. There's a big difference.


----------



## cgf

Curtinho said:


> I wouldn't say footballers are dumb. Most are just uneducated. There's a big difference.




Most are dumb & not just uneducated. If dumb is too harsh a word for you we can call them simply instead; but in general if a footballer doesn't make you wanna start making jokes about Lennie, he's doing alright.


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> Most are dumb & not just uneducated. If dumb is too harsh a word for you we can call them simply instead; but in general if a footballer doesn't make you wanna start making jokes about Lennie, he's doing alright.



Usually footballers have their talent in their legs not in their brain. It always was that way. Loddar, Möller or Poldi might prove that. Metzelder, Hitzlsperger or Lahm prove the opposite.
Btw IMO Oliver Kahn is uneducated AND dumb. And he doesn't have the slightest clue how football is played these days.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

I didn't know so many posters here knew footballers personally. FYI fancy degrees doesn't make you smart.


----------



## YNWA14

cgf said:


> Most are dumb & not just uneducated. If dumb is too harsh a word for you we can call them simply instead; but in general if a footballer doesn't make you wanna start making jokes about Lennie, he's doing alright.



Are you speaking from personal experience? I've met plenty of intelligent footballers. There's plenty as well that are very insightful in interviews. Again, most are uneducated because of the level of dedication necessary to play, but there's also a high level of understanding and intelligence required to play at the top level especially the further back you go on the field.

Dumb isn't too harsh of a word, it's just not correct.


----------



## Evilo

Bunch of weid comments here.
Uneducated, yeah, plenty. Dumb? Hardly.
Some are, but certainly not more than the general population.


----------



## YNWA14

You see what you've done now cgf? You've got Evilo and I on the same side of a debate. Ugh.


----------



## cgf

Curtinho said:


> Are you speaking from personal experience? I've met plenty of intelligent footballers. There's plenty as well that are very insightful in interviews. Again, most are uneducated because of the level of dedication necessary to play, but there's also a high level of understanding and intelligence required to play at the top level especially the further back you go on the field.
> 
> Dumb isn't too harsh of a word, it's just not correct.




Personal experiences of my own and those of my acquaintances in the industry. There's a difference between the type of instinctual intelligence that modern football demands of its top performers and the intelligence to truly comprehend what is being discussed & process new information. That instinctual intelligence to rapidly survey the pitch and move the ball is much more developed than that type of idea-processing & conversational intelligence.



Evilo said:


> Bunch of weid comments here.
> Uneducated, yeah, plenty. Dumb? Hardly.
> Some are, *but certainly not more than the general population.*




That's not exactly a high bar lol

...and (in my experience) not true. Truly intelligent players are quite rare. Footballers are generally much more intelligent than NBA or NFL players, but again that says more about who they are being compared against than their own intelligence.


----------



## Evilo

Yes, not a high bar, but nobody said they were smarter than everyday people. There are idiots, a bunch of average and also smart guys among footballers, just like the rest.

For instance, someone like Jean Alain Boumsong never seemed particularly smart during his playing days, well turns out he is extremely smart.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Based on my life experience, it's difficult enough to estimate a person's competence and intelligence when you sit across from them and consider whether you want to hire them. Talking about the intelligence of people you've never met or talked to is a speculative waste of time.

On a different note, Dynamo got a hugely important away win in Köpenick today. This is the 3rd straight win for Dresden and after spending some time in the relegation zone, they now look to spend winter at least in the midtable zone.


----------



## theprofessor

Frankfurt playing well against Bayern early, disrupting Bayern's possession. Nice snow falling....


----------



## theprofessor

Didn't last long...Vidal finds the back of the net with a header. Beautiful feed from Kimmich.


----------



## 555Upstairs

Bon Esprit said:


> Usually footballers have their talent in their legs not in their brain. It always was that way. Loddar, Möller or Poldi might prove that. Metzelder, Hitzlsperger or Lahm prove the opposite.
> *Btw IMO Oliver Kahn is uneducated AND dumb*. And he doesn't have the slightest clue how football is played these days.



No comment on the latter, but he got his Abitur at the start of his pro carreer and a Master's degree after he retired, so the former definitely isn't true.

I've only met two players personally, Toni Kroos and David Alaba when they visited our local supporters club. Kroos was pretty young at the time but he gave some insightful thougts. Alaba on the other hand didn't seem like the sharpest tool in the shed...


----------



## Deficient Mode

Dreadful, simply dreadful. Dortmund is playing worse football for the past almost two months than they did in Klopp's final year. Bosz doesn't have any of the immense credit to his name that Klopp had built up, either.



555Upstairs said:


> No comment on the latter, but he got his Abitur at the start of his pro carreer and a Master's degree after he retired, so the former definitely isn't true.
> 
> I've only met two players personally, Toni Kroos and David Alaba when they visited our local supporters club. Kroos was pretty young at the time but he gave some insightful thougts. Alaba on the other hand didn't seem like the sharpest tool in the shed...




I don't know about Alaba but Kroos has also struck me as a fairly intelligent guy.


----------



## Savant

Bremen is up on Dortmund


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> Bremen is up on Dortmund




Kruse is a god and Max Eggestein had a great strike to put it in.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Awkward finish by Aubameyang - weak header and he had to shield the ball from the goalkeeper to guide it into the net - but I'll take it.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bremen regains the lead. Totally deserved after they flubbed two chances. lol.


----------



## 555Upstairs

Prime example of why the video ref is a good thing and should stay: Frankfurt's Wolf is sent off, VAR calls refferee telling him to take a look at it again, ref does so and changes red to yellow, rightfully so. If only it always went down so smoothly.


----------



## ecemleafs

dortmund players look like theyve never played with each other before.


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> Bremen regains the lead. Totally deserved after they flubbed two chances. lol.



Maybe they won’t get relegated


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> Maybe they won’t get relegated




At this rate Dortmund will get relegated in their place.


----------



## 555Upstairs

Starke keeps a clean sheet in a match he wasn't supposed to play in, in a season when he was supposed to be in retirement
On a side note, Bayern are "Herbstmeister".


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Dortmund's fall from grace is pretty entertaining given that it's self-inflicted.


----------



## Timeless Winter

Bosz needs to gtfo and go back to Holland.


----------



## Nalens Oga

I have a theory that Bosz thought he'd be fired like 3 weeks or so ago so he pretty much gave up but then they kept him on lmao and he's just waiting to get it and not coaching bothering to coach the team. Anyways, you clearly see that coaching does have a huge influence in this league with how Bremen and Wolfsburg's play has changed since their coaches.

Also, eugh Thomas Muller as striker is always awful. I wish they'd just started Lewandowski, I don't like Sandro Wagner but really need that guy in as backup to avoid this for the next half.


----------



## 555Upstairs

Nalens Oga said:


> I have a theory that Bosz thought he'd be fired like 3 weeks or so ago so he pretty much gave up but then they kept him on lmao and he's just waiting to get it and not coaching bothering to coach the team. Anyways, you clearly see that coaching does have a huge influence in this league with how Bremen and Wolfsburg's play has changed since their coaches.
> 
> *Also, eugh Thomas Muller as striker is always awful. I wish they'd just started Lewandowski, I don't like Sandro Wagner but really need that guy in as backup to avoid this for the next half.*



Yeah, Müller is great as a midfielder but as a striker he just looks totally out of place. They can't play Lewandowski every game though, they urgently need a backup for him and I'd be perfectly fine with local boy Wagner.


----------



## ecemleafs

this schalke monchengladbach game is fun. monchengladbach unlucky not to be up 2-0, but schalke had a shot towards goal deflected over the goal by m'gladbach defender on the line.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Didn't watch today's match, why wake up early for that?


----------



## Savant

Bosz sounds like he wants out


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

I just noticed the amount of assists Philipp Max has this season. What is he possessed by?


----------



## Bure80

Savant said:


> Bosz sounds like he wants out




According to German media Bosz is fired.


----------



## Savant

Bure80 said:


> According to German media Bosz is fired.



Who do they replace him with? Can they beg Tuchel for forgiveness?

Maybe Bosz goes takes the Oranje job?


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Tony Pulis is available.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> Bosz sounds like he wants out




It went on long enough that I started to wonder if BVB were waiting for him to resign to save money on a payout, hoping he'd want to salvage what was left of his reputation. The past few weeks their performance has been so hopeless. Not even chaotic Bosz football. Just nothing. I'm starting to suspect that there are real issues with team unity that go way beyond what Tuchel allegedly did to them. Older players like Sahin may resent being supplanted by a carousel of young, talented players. In the end, he grew uncertain which players or what style was best for him.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Savant said:


> Bosz sounds like he wants out



It's not official yet. But Bosz got sacked according to bild.
Trainer-Aus angeblich beschlossen: BVB trennt sich von Peter Bosz

SPORT BILD-Informationen | Trainer-Aus beschlossen: BVB trennt sich von Bosz!


----------



## YNWA14

Seems like the issues at Dortmund are deeper than Bosz imo.


----------



## Scouter

Freaking Dortmund lose to Bremen, about time Bosz is out, should have been out a few matches ago.


----------



## John Pedro

Monchengladbach should've won today against S04. VAR is so weird, but they made the right decision on both plays... must suck for real fans to watch their team's goal/penalty taken away by video, though. It's like the offside rule, kill all the momentum.


----------



## cgf

John Pedro said:


> Monchengladbach should've won today against S04. VAR is so weird, but they made the right decision on both plays... must suck for real fans to watch their team's goal/penalty taken away by video, though. It's like the offside rule, kill all the momentum.




Still haven't watched that match yet but I can't deny being bummed by the result. Tedesco has schalke playing better, but BMG still plays a much more attractive brand of football.


----------



## Nalens Oga

I would have to think that there is something wrong with Dortmund's board or whatever for them to have taken this long to fire Bosz. My guess is that this might have something to do with how the team is public but I never really could understand that and its effect. Either way, it took too long, fortunately it's only like 4 points out of a CL spot so they should be able to get back in because none of the three or four other teams are consistent enough outside Bayern.



Big Kahuna said:


> I just noticed the amount of assists Philipp Max has this season. What is he possessed by?




Their other fullback Opare isn't bad either (though I think he was suspended for this game). Max has a pretty good engine though, runs up and down the pitch arguably better than Kimmich, very mobile and aggressive. Some rumour today said he was being tracked by a bunch of good teams. Anyways, they should be favourites to win tmrw at home against Hertha.


----------



## John Pedro

cgf said:


> Still haven't watched that match yet but I can't deny being bummed by the result. Tedesco has schalke playing better, but BMG still plays a much more attractive brand of football.




BMG was in cruise control until the own goal and they could've scored 2 or 3 goals but missed too many counters. Hazard didn't have a good game. Raffael, Stindl and Kramer stood out, imo. Raffael had a fantastic player in the Stindl's offside goal. As for S04, Harit is very good.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Nalens Oga said:


> Their other fullback Opare isn't bad either (though I think he was suspended for this game). Max has a pretty good engine though, runs up and down the pitch arguably better than Kimmich, very mobile and aggressive. Some rumour today said he was being tracked by a bunch of good teams. Anyways, they should be favourites to win tmrw at home against Hertha.




Do you feel that he deserves a fair shout as the German NT's main LB?


----------



## cgf

John Pedro said:


> BMG was in cruise control until the own goal and they could've scored 2 or 3 goals but missed too many counters. Hazard didn't have a good game. *Raffael, Stindl and Kramer stood out*, imo. Raffael had a fantastic player in the Stindl's offside goal. As for S04, Harit is very good.




My boys, those three & Elvedi are my favorites on the team atm



Big Kahuna said:


> Do you feel that he deserves a fair shout as the German NT's main LB?




Not ahead of Henrichs, Hector & Plattenhart...even if our NT shouldn't use FBs at all.


----------



## Scouter

Now Dortmund have to find a better manager than Bosz.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Curtinho said:


> Seems like the issues at Dortmund are deeper than Bosz imo.




I don't know, man. With the German Iniesta pulling the strings and some of the other quality they have, they should be no worse than 3rd in the league.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

This is a good first step. Schmelzer needs to become the second string in his role, as does Sahin.


----------



## Nalens Oga

cgf said:


> Not ahead of Henrichs, Hector & Plattenhart...even if our NT shouldn't use FBs at all.




Hector and Plattenhart are hard-working but boring players, the national team relies a tonne on crossing, I'd rather have Max than those two.


----------



## cgf

Nalens Oga said:


> Hector and Plattenhart are hard-working but boring players, the national team relies a tonne on crossing, I'd rather have Max than those two.




I'm not as high on Plattenhart as some but his crossing gets him in ahead of Max. Hector is a relatively quick thinker who doesn't slow down our possession game and give opponents an easy point to attack with their pressing like someone like Can does. He's a passable option for when the NT is playing a back 4.

Although again we should play a back three with Sane as our LWB; stick Kimmich, Brandt or maybe Weiser on the right and we are set on the flanks and able to play to our strengths down the middle...ideally rolling out a Hummels-Boateng-Kimmich back three behind Kroos/Weigl/Rudy & Gundo/Dahoud/Kramer; with a Müller, Werner/Stindl & Özil trident up front.


----------



## Nalens Oga

If Loew tries playing a back three in the World Cup against a well coached team with a really good attack on the wings then the team is screwed and I'd expect a repeat of what happened at the past Euros. He has to be a bit more conservative and play two proper full-backs that can defend not a Sane type solution. The team just isn't good enough to control the game for 90 minutes, his coaching I've always thought was overrated but more importantly, this isn't 2010 Spain, they will dominate but they're far more open to counters.

But anyways, I don't wanna side-track this thread with non-relevant hypotheticals and non-Bundesliga stuff like that French guy always does. Back to the league....I'm looking pretty forward to the Hertha game and also wonder if Koln looks better now with the new manager (but I'm not gonna watch them against Freiburg, that's the most bleh team in the league right now).


----------



## cgf

What failed at the euros was the players who slowed down our possession and gave france opportunities to attack to create counters, not the lack of defensive players...that and Müller being in EM-form... Replace the 50 year old Schweini & Can with quicker thinkers like Kramer & one of the kids (or even Rudy) and those chances france got on the break disappear; setting up yet another german victory over Portugal to give us the opportunity to match spain's run in russia. So we must learn the right lesson from the euros and not "correct" things in the wrong direction.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Big Kahuna said:


> Tony Pulis is available.




Almost as good: Bilic apparently a main candidate.


----------



## HajdukSplit

Appears Dortmund will hire Stoger until the end of the season


----------



## Deficient Mode

HajdukSplit said:


> Appears Dortmund will hire Stoger until the end of the season




Yeah. Fine choice for now.


----------



## Just Win

Peter fired, Peter hired.


----------



## Albatros

Stöger is neither good enough for Dortmund nor as bad as this season in Cologne made him look like. But it's a smart move to pick someone who knows the league, maybe they can salvage European qualification at least.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Köln lol


----------



## Nalens Oga

Nice shot from Augsburg, in the Koln game, the ref had to manually count the steps because they couldn't find the penalty spot in the snow. I find it weird that they count from the goal line instead of the 6-yard box, there's less steps to take and less room for error from the 6-yard box.


----------



## samabam

Nalens Oga said:


> .......I'm looking pretty forward to the Hertha game and also wonder if Koln looks better now with the new manager (but I'm not gonna watch them against Freiburg, that's the most bleh team in the league right now).




Good decision, what a boring game Köln-Freiburg was


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Seen reports that Dortmund are "fairly confident" that they can land Nagelsmann next summer.


----------



## cgf

ecemleafs said:


> this schalke monchengladbach game is fun. monchengladbach unlucky not to be up 2-0, but schalke had a shot towards goal deflected over the goal by m'gladbach defender on the line.





John Pedro said:


> Monchengladbach should've won today against S04. VAR is so weird, but they made the right decision on both plays... must suck for real fans to watch their team's goal/penalty taken away by video, though. It's like the offside rule, kill all the momentum.




Watched the match this morning and yeah, BMG really should've taken a multi goal lead but we saw after the goal in the 1st half the biggest flaw with Hecking strategically. His natural impulse is to have his side drop deeper and play on the counter once there is a lead to defend, but doing so disrupts BMG's flow with the ball and though the team came up with a great performance against bayern, usually they start to get lackadaisical when they sit back to defend a lead...which in turn just invites the other team into the match and takes away their own momentum unless they can connect on one of those counter attempts that constantly cede the ball back quickly. Yes Stindl was probably level with the keeper on his offsides goal, and if the refs hadn't noticed Wendt's push then Stindl one of won a penalty; but BMG was much worse between the 25th & 45th minutes than they were in the opening 25 and the start of the second...though there to they started to sit back & counter in the lead up to the demoralizing equalizer.

It's easy to point to those two scenes with Stindl & the brace that Hazard left on the pitch; but what cost BMG the 2 points in this match was Hecking's desire to sit back & counter with the lead instead of continuing to dominate the ball to force his opponents to get more aggressive in their pressing and leave themselves exposed for a 2nd.

That's why I pray that they can woo Tuchel to replace Hecking in the summer...especially as Benes, Cuisance & Neuhaus push into the midfield mix and the team must see more of the ball to ensure everyone gets their touches.


----------



## cgf

Big Kahuna said:


> Seen reports that Dortmund are "fairly confident" that they can land Nagelsmann next summer.




That would be a game changer if they could hijack his move to Bayern...but it's probably no longer possible given the agreement between Bayern & Nagelsmann, and the house Nagelsmann's building in Bavaria for his family to move into before the season even ends.

With how poorly Favre would get along with Watzke I don't even know who which german-speaking coach would be getable & a good fit for BVB...unless they decided to go the Jupp/Hecking rout; praying that the possession foundation Tuchel left behind hasn't been entirely erased by Bosz, and getting a more pragmatic man manager who can bolster the camaraderie & defensive organization. Stöger could be that guy, as could Hecking if BMG can get Tuchel to replace him.

Some are really hot on Stuttgart's Wolf, but I'm not. To me he seems like just another kloppo knockoff like Hassenhuttl or Roger Schmidt; rather than a pep successor like Tuchel, Nagelsmann and maybe Tedesco.

Maybe Jens Keller? He's not as bright or innovative as Tuchel / Favre / Nagelsmann; but he can organize a cohesive possession game without ignoring the defensive organization entirely, and he seems to have been well liked in both the Schalke & Union locker-rooms. Honestly I don't think he's a good enough coach for a side aiming for the CL anymore...and back when he was that was mostly because Schalke was stronger and the rest of the league was weaker. Which is why I see his ideal job atm as solidifying Werder as a top 10 team who play attractive & positive football, while intermittently playing in the EL...but maybe his possession minded football & light locker-room atmosphere would be just what the doctor ordered for BVB, and would get them playing the way a team that can roll out a lineup like this, should:

Auba - Yarmo
Raphael - Gotze - Dahoud - Pulisic
Weigl
Toprak - Sokratis* - Bartra​and still have a bench like this:​
Reus/Phillip - Isak/Schürrle
Toljan - Sancho - Kagawa - Castro
Sahin
Schmelzer - Zagadou* - Pisczek​


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Been away since before Bosz got sacked yesterday, really good developments.

Bosz needed to go, Stoeger is a good replacement for this season. 

Did anyone mention that a few publications have reported that we have a deal in place with Nagelsmann for next season?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> It went on long enough that I started to wonder if BVB were waiting for him to resign to save money on a payout, hoping he'd want to salvage what was left of his reputation. The past few weeks their performance has been so hopeless. Not even chaotic Bosz football. Just nothing. I'm starting to suspect that there are real issues with team unity that go way beyond what Tuchel allegedly did to them. Older players like Sahin may resent being supplanted by a carousel of young, talented players. In the end, he grew uncertain which players or what style was best for him.




Sahin, Schmelzer, Subotic, Castro, Sokratis. Yup, we need a further clear out. Maybe Schurrle is part of it? This guy provides the game winning assist in the World Cup, and for two years he's been a back up to Dembele, Pulisic, Mor, Philipp. Yarmolenko came in and had a spot over him right away. Piszczek could be part of it, but he knows that as bad as he has been, he has no competition when he returns. 

Doesn't apply to Goetze and Reus because they are good, but the others, it might apply.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Curtinho said:


> Seems like the issues at Dortmund are deeper than Bosz imo.




Yes, they are, but he also needed to go.

RB, CB, CM have been brutal this season. Letting Dembele go has hurt the team, and Reus being injured doesn't help. A number of other good players have not played up to the level required of them so far this season.

I saw someone make a good point recently about the problem with Bosz. Teams that can organize behind the ball, concede possession and hit on the break with athleticism can beat Bosz teams rather easily. There's not much of that in the Eredivisie though, almost every team is like a worse version of Ajax or PSV, so Bosz had success due to having much better players than the other teams. He was exposed in the Europa League final against Man United. The shot quality under Bosz this season has been appalling, we got the highest quality shots in Europe under Tuchel last season.


----------



## Vipers31

A contender hires a coach that shortly was fired from the last place team for a historically bad run.

I know, Stöger isn't that bad or the leading reason to Cologne's demise, but this definitely is the weirdest timeline.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Yes, they are, but he also needed to go.
> 
> RB, CB, CM have been brutal this season. Letting Dembele go has hurt the team, and Reus being injured doesn't help. A number of other good players have not played up to the level required of them so far this season.
> 
> I saw someone make a good point recently about the problem with Bosz. Teams that can organize behind the ball, concede possession and hit on the break with athleticism can beat Bosz teams rather easily. There's not much of that in the Eredivisie though, almost every team is like a worse version of Ajax or PSV, so Bosz had success due to having much better players than the other teams. He was exposed in the Europa League final against Man United. The shot quality under Bosz this season has been appalling, we got the highest quality shots in Europe under Tuchel last season.




Yes, that is one of the starkest differences between Bosz and Tuchel: Bosz is really enamored with shots outside the box. It was true in the Eredivisie too. The collective creativity really took a hit this year, and it was evident even when they were winning early in the season.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

What are expectations under Stoger? Top 4? More development of young players and average results?


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Giroud claims that he nearly got transferred to Dortmund last summer, until Auba decided to stay.


----------



## cgf

*sigh* god damn Jogi


----------



## cgf

Raffa given a break & still no midfield trio to get Cuisance on the pitch; instead we get to watch Drmic waste space *sigh*...f***ing Hecking...

If Raffa needs a rest then why not experiment with a 4-3-3/4-1-4-1 given the spark the young frenchman has provided in his cameos? Especially against a pressing wizard like Streich who has owned Gladbach throughout his tenure...

EDIT:
God damn Zakaria. He covers so much space in a stride or two to close in on attackers. And then he looks Yaya-esque when galloping up the pitch with the ball on a break. Man if this kid develops well he could really be something, especially with the possession schooling he's getting from BMG. Wonder how long it takes before he gets his wish for a spot with one of the EPL's financial giants?


----------



## cgf

How sexy would BMG's back line look if they were able to get Soyuncu instead of ginter...Soyuncu-Vestegaard-Elvedi.

F*** VAR. That's 3 goals from VAR that BMG have had to overcome in the past 3 days. This one on an obvious dive from the Freiburg player where he tripped himself.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Nothing concede in the first half under Stoger. Defence looked much better overall.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

1-0 BVB... ugly goal but we're ahead.


----------



## YNWA14

cgf said:


> God damn Zakaria. He covers so much space in a stride or two to close in on attackers. And then he looks Yaya-esque when galloping up the pitch with the ball on a break. Man if this kid develops well he could really be something, especially with the possession schooling he's getting from BMG. Wonder how long it takes before he gets his wish for a spot with one of the EPL's financial giants?




I've had very high hopes for Zakaria ever since I saw him a couple years ago. Followed him enough to sign him in my Dynasty league and have rebuffed every trade offer for him. There's too much raw talent/physical tools there. Glad to see he seems to be playing well.


----------



## cgf

Curtinho said:


> I've had very high hopes for Zakaria ever since I saw him a couple years ago. Followed him enough to sign him in my Dynasty league and have rebuffed every trade offer for him. There's too much raw talent/physical tools there. Glad to see he seems to be playing well.




How well he's doing is making me really pissed off with Hecking's dogmatic adherence to this 4-4-2/4-2-4. Cuisance should be starting alongside Kramer & Zakaria, but he can't get on the pitch without Hecking making a change.


----------



## cgf

Well Hecking listened and they look better; Raffa almost tying it less than 10 minutes after coming on; but now Streich has his chance to respond...since Hecking didn't just start with the right players...


----------



## cgf

Kramer better not have another concussion...


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

2-0. Nice rebound under Bosz. Defend looked a lot more solid. Offensive was okay, and really I would expect him to only have addressed the defence in two days. Getting that win going into the break (plus a couple more games) with new coach should mentally help the team a ton.


----------



## maclean

And just like that Dortmund is fourth!


----------



## Deficient Mode

I don't think Dortmund played that well but a win is a win.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich




----------



## Nalens Oga

cgf said:


> Kramer better not have another concussion...




Borussia Mönchengladbach Contest: Win an Autographed Foals’ Jersey


----------



## Bure80

Reus had his first training with the ball today. Pisczcek trained some exercises with the team.
Watzke announced a US Tour for 2018 a few days ago .
Borussia Dortmund announce tour of United States in 2018


----------



## Deficient Mode

Köln's jerseys+shorts are an eyesore.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Köln's jerseys+shorts are an eyesore.



Could've just said: Köln are an eyesore


----------



## Nalens Oga

Jupp started Tolisso and Vidal both and Rudy as well plus no Kimmich so then he had to sub off Vidal at half-time and bring in James for the creativity.

I know Koln are meh but they don't actually play like a last place team and you do need creativity in the team especially with the decline of Robbery.

Anyways, Bayer have moved into that 4th CL spot. I actually wouldn't be surprised if they overtake Schalke in the 2nd half (Dortmund should overtake both). They rested Havertz for most of the game and subbed out Bailey early too.


----------



## Deficient Mode

4 points separate 2nd and 8th place. Aside from the best and the worst teams, this league is stupidly even.


----------



## Vipers31

Well, you sure can't say Stöger isn't consistent. He came in and did what he had done all season in Cologne - get three points.


----------



## maclean

Deficient Mode said:


> 4 points separate 2nd and 8th place. Aside from the best and the worst teams, this league is stupidly even.




Put differently, other than Köln at the bottom and Bayern at the top, there are no more than 2 points separating any direct neighbours in the table. And there are only two cases of that even.


----------



## Pouchkine

The problem is that it's more a reflection of a lack of very good teams this year. Just look at the results in Europe again.


----------



## cgf

Pouchkine said:


> The problem is that it's more a reflection of a lack of very good teams this year. Just look at the results in Europe again.



Let's look at those european results. Bosz destroyed BVB's campaign; naivety ruined Leipzig & Hoffenheim's; Hertha are Hertha; and Koln are the worst team in the league. So what exactly are we supposed to take from those results that tells us anything about the actually quality of any of those teams other than Hertha? And we already knew what Hertha was.

You can't bring something up as an argument for your point and then not actually analyze the thing you brought up to make sure it actually has any connection to the point you are trying to make.


----------



## Pouchkine

Forget all the excuses. 

Dortmund failed
Leipzig failed
Hoffenheim failed
Hertha failed
Koln failed

In the league no team is actually playing very good on top apart from Bayern.


----------



## Deficient Mode

It's still early. Often those teams 2-6 don't distinguish themselves until the second half of the domestic season.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

It's kind of a shit league aside from Bayern and one other team that rotates every couple of years. It's been that way since I can remember (i.e. the 80s).


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> It's kind of a **** league aside from Bayern and one other team that rotates every couple of years. It's been that way since I can remember (i.e. the 80s).



When I watched a BMG team that hasn't finished top two in eons outplay the likes of Barca & Citeh in the CL, I have a tough time agreeing with that *shrug*


Pouchkine said:


> Forget all the excuses.
> 
> Dortmund failed
> Leipzig failed
> Hoffenheim failed
> Hertha failed
> Koln failed
> 
> In the league no team is actually playing very good on top apart from Bayern.



"let's talk about X"
"ok so what about this aspect of X?"
"...stop talking about X"

Why even bother responding to you anymore if you want to bring something up but then don't actually want to talk about it?


----------



## Bon Esprit

I find it very interesting that this crappy Köln team allows only 2 goals against on average. This is probably the only thing they are better than Tasmania at this point.

1. Bundesliga 1965/66, der 16. Spieltag

(they scored 9, 2 better than Tasmania)


----------



## cgf

All I want for christmas is three more years of top-class Raffael and for Eggestein/Kühn to study from him < 3

Even with Oxford in midfield not going too well and Hecking's desire to sit deep ceding the initiative to HSV; Raffa's brilliance decides this final match before the winter break for the small team from just outside Köln.

Cuisance almost scored a beauty earlier as well. A real cracker cutting onto his left from the right side.


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> All I want for christmas is three more years of top-class Raffael and for Eggestein/Kühn to study from him < 3
> 
> Even with Oxford in midfield not going too well and Hecking's desire to sit deep ceding the initiative to HSV; Raffa's brilliance decides this final match before the winter break for the* small team from just outside Köln.*
> 
> Cuisance almost scored a beauty earlier as well. A real cracker cutting onto his left from the right side.




This is so cute. Merry christmas cgf. 

BMG didn't play well tonight, but thank god HSV couldn't do more than the equalizer.They have 15 points now, Hannover has 22. That makes me confident to see another Bundesliga season after this one.


----------



## cgf

BMG got a lead and sat back, they never play well when they do this unless they are playing against Bayern...even though having Oxford in place of Zakaria or Kramer undermined their ability to play in possession...but this could've been addressed by playing Grifo down the middle & using a back 3:

Raffa - Stindl
Hazard
Wendt - Cuisance - Grifo - Herrmann
Veste - Ginter - Elvedi
Sommer​


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

cgf said:


> When I watched a BMG team that hasn't finished top two in eons outplay the likes of Barca & Citeh in the CL, I have a tough time agreeing with that *shrug*




There's always been outlier performances from German teams in Europe. Anyone remember Karlsruhe's 7-0 vs Valencia? And of course I was simplifying things a bit to make a point. There were some years for sure where it wasn't so clear who was no.2, and some years where 1/2/3/4 weren't that far apart, but overall the point stands. A Bayern rival emerges and then fades as they sell the players that made them Bayern rivals and they can't replace them with players of equal quality. I think there was at least temporarily justified hope that Dortmund could break this trend, but at the moment it sure looks like they've gone that way too. At least - unlike Werder Bremen - their commercial footing should be solid enough to prevent a free fall into the relegation zone no matter what nonsense Aki Watzke and Michael Zorc come up with.


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> There's always been outlier performances from German teams in Europe. Anyone remember Karlsruhe's 7-0 vs Valencia? And of course I was simplifying things a bit to make a point. There were some years for sure where it wasn't so clear who was no.2, and some years where 1/2/3/4 weren't that far apart, but overall the point stands. A Bayern rival emerges and then fades as they sell the players that made them Bayern rivals and they can't replace them with players of equal quality. I think there was at least temporarily justified hope that Dortmund could break this trend, but at the moment it sure looks like they've gone that way too. At least - unlike Werder Bremen - their commercial footing should be solid enough to prevent a free fall into the relegation zone no matter what nonsense Aki Watzke and Michael Zorc come up with.




BMG pretty consistently put in impressive performances in the CL against the giants. Leverkusen were the Arsenal of Germany for years. And before they fell out Schalke had some nice runs. Sure they're not pushing Bayern, but I frankly couldn't care less about that. Bayern are a different scale of team and Leipzig are the only chance of that changing any time soon. So what? Gladbach still play beautiful football, Nagelsmann is still fascinating, Leipzig & Dortmund have fun & exciting rosters (even if BVB haven't played interesting football in a minute), Werder are still a fun team to watch, etc. The title race hasn't been this league's selling point during many periods of its history. Just because Gladbach, Koln, Hamburg nor Werder are winning titles here & there doesn't change what makes this league interesting.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

I never said it can't be interesting. But it isn't that great a league in overall quality. It's a cut beneath Spain and England IMO and has always been (and Italy as well before their league kind of tanked). Not in terms of attractiveness but in terms of quality. Not one of these leagues depends on one team the same way the BuLi depends on Bayern.


----------



## Savant

Here comes Bremen


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> Here comes Bremen




Dramatic comeback from Mainz. Tying goal in the final seconds.


----------



## 555Upstairs

Quite the dramatic final minutes in the Stuttgart - Bayern match


----------



## Halladay

Drama. Ulreich saves a penalty for the win. Schalke equalizes late.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Looks like a lot of these matches had last minute drama


----------



## Nalens Oga

That penalty decision was bullshit. Sule kicks the ball, gets the player on the follow through, ref goes to VAR, ref then seems to ignore VAR and looks at it himself and then gives a penalty. Ulreich stopped it anyways so meh.

Lewandowski would probably have a goal in this game if he stopped dropping back to midfield constantly because Muller was playing so far up.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Toljan with a couple bad plays there


----------



## ecemleafs

is the bvb game on tv in the usa? fs2 seems to be a replay of the hamburg game yesterday for whatever reason.


----------



## Bon Esprit

WOB LOL


----------



## cgf

I wonder if watching Amiri & Demirbay tear it up has gotten Stoger to consider bringing Dahoud on :-/



TheMoreYouKnow said:


> I never said it can't be interesting. But it isn't that great a league in overall quality. It's a cut beneath Spain and England IMO and has always been (and Italy as well before their league kind of tanked). Not in terms of attractiveness but in terms of quality. Not one of these leagues depends on one team the same way the BuLi depends on Bayern.




Not sure I can agree with you, but quality is a pretty subjective criteria; so I'm willing to leave it at that.


----------



## Deficient Mode

I think Pulisic will take off again under Stöger if this game is any indication


----------



## cgf

Dahoud swivels away from some TSG defenders, slips into the middle to draw a crowd and then slides it over for Shinji to take advantage of the space he'd created. < 3 Mo so much. Even in a match featuring Demirbay, Amiri & Raphael he sticks out as a class above.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Dahoud swivels away from some TSG defenders, slips into the middle to draw a crowd and then slides it over for Shinji to take advantage of the space he'd created. < 3 Mo so much. Even in a match featuring Demirbay, Amiri & Raphael he sticks out as a class above.




He's so fantastic around the box. Can't wait until we can see him and Götze together finally. I can understand Stöger's uncertainty over him since he hasn't been playing, but that was a great sub performance.


----------



## cgf

Even after watching him so much the past two years, and having started hyping him after his first senior friendly four years ago; I had started to forget just how spectacular he is. If he can become a regular started under Stöger I'm no longer sure if I want Ilkay starting ahead of Mo for the NT even if Ilkay is healthy for the WC. Mo is soooooooo good already and he's the future; so lets hand him the reigns asap.


----------



## Cassano

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> I never said it can't be interesting. But it isn't that great a league in overall quality. It's a cut beneath Spain and England IMO and has always been (and Italy as well before their league kind of tanked). Not in terms of attractiveness but in terms of quality. Not one of these leagues depends on one team the same way the BuLi depends on Bayern.



Every German player wants to play for Bayern, which doesn't help. Sule and Rudy for a combined <25m was ridiculous for example.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Name a more iconic duo. I'll wait.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Name a more iconic duo. I'll wait.









Done.



All Might said:


> Every German player wants to play for Bayern, which doesn't help. Sule and Rudy for a combined




Rudy was a bosman and Sule had one senior level season before moving for that fee; while TSG got Gnabry on loan from Bayern as well. So that is a misleading comment.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Yeah, Dahoud needs to play a lot more. Against Bayern, I'd play him instead of Guerreiro centrally and Guerreiro instead of Yarmo or Pulisic. Guerreiro struggles centrally with his defensive work, he's not great in there against teams that can possess the ball.

Weigl is back. I still don't know about the back line. Toljan has looked better so far than earlier in the season, but still pretty bad. The two immobile CB's who can't pass have been bad, but not tested. Schmelzer has also been very hit or miss, so the back line is still worrying. And the injuries have really hurt us up front. We had 3 CB's on the bench, 0 wingers or central playmakers. That should get better as players get healthy, so while the attack has struggled of late, I think thats more about the injuries than anything else.

I don't know why we have Subotic on the bench, but not Sancho. Why did we purchase Sancho? I know he's young, but he's not gotten a chance yet, even with a ton of injuries. Subotic is awful. I'd rather us give the best U-19 player game time than him.


----------



## ecemleafs

this leverkusen hannover match has been awesome.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Hertha get a really nice goal and a harsh red card on the other end in the first 7 minutes. Ouch.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Leipzig is getting embarrassed by a team with 10 men. They've now conceded two goals and scored none with the man advantage. Sad!

Dortmund will somehow only be two points out of second place despite that disastrous stretch if this scores. Not sure how often a second place team at the halfway point has ever had so few points as Schalke right now.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Deficient Mode said:


> Leipzig is getting embarrassed by a team with 10 men. They've now conceded two goals and scored none with the man advantage. Sad!
> 
> Dortmund will somehow only be two points out of second place despite that disastrous stretch if this scores. Not sure how often a second place team at the halfway point has ever had so few points as Schalke right now.




Leipzig scored two goals but couldn't get anything out of the match. 

I checked and not since Bayern in 1993/94 did a second place team have 30 points or fewer as Schalke has now. Only one other year in that interval (Leverkusen with 31 points in 2000/01) did the second place team have fewer that 33 points. Amazing how we went from one of the strongest groups of top teams in Bundesliga history 2-4 years ago to total mediocrity.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Hassenhuttl needs to go. You have arguably the best striker and central midfielder in the league, one of the best defenders, two of the best wingers, two other strikers that are in the top 15 or 20, and more depth than any team excluding maybe Bayern and yet they're not even in a CL spot and have won one game in five.

Good on him for quickly getting the team up but time to be more ambitious and bring in a better coach who will dispose of lesser teams like Hertha (who for some reason didn't start Leckie and I heard nothing about him being injured).


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nalens Oga said:


> Hassenhuttl needs to go. You have arguably the best striker and central midfielder in the league, one of the best defenders, two of the best wingers, two other strikers that are in the top 15 or 20, and more depth than any team excluding maybe Bayern and yet they're not even in a CL spot and have won one game in five.




I disagree with most of this


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

It's hardly a shock that Leipzig aren't playing as well as they did last year. They're a known quantity now, teams view them as a big opponent and they had to deal with the CL as an extra burden and distraction. That's a pretty typical phenomenon. I think it's actually a testament to their squad quality that they're nevertheless up there in the mix.

Of course, RB Leipzig delenda est.


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> It's hardly a shock that Leipzig aren't playing as well as they did last year. They're a known quantity now, teams view them as a big opponent and they had to deal with the CL as an extra burden and distraction. That's a pretty typical phenomenon. I think it's actually a testament to their squad quality that they're nevertheless up there in the mix.
> 
> Of course, RB Leipzig delenda est.




Yep. Last year they had no European play and were eliminated immediately in the Pokal. Those extra 7 or 8 matches have had a predictably large impact on them in the Bundesliga. Now other teams that aren't in Europe are fresh and facing them when they're tired, and the starting 11 that they rode very hard last year aren't as fresh, and the backups aren't quite as good. Pretty strange to claim that they have better depth than Dortmund and arguably Bayern.


----------



## Maverick41

Nalens Oga said:


> Hassenhuttl needs to go. You have arguably the best striker and central midfielder in the league, one of the best defenders, two of the best wingers, two other strikers that are in the top 15 or 20, and more depth than any team excluding maybe Bayern and yet they're not even in a CL spot and have won one game in five.
> 
> Good on him for quickly getting the team up but time to be more ambitious and bring in a better coach who will dispose of lesser teams like Hertha (*who for some reason didn't start Leckie and I heard nothing about him being injured*).




I think Dardai said, that with so many games this season (Bundesliga, Europa League, national team) Leckie was just plain tired lately and he wanted him to start his vacation a little early.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Maverick41 said:


> I think Dardai said, that with so many games this season (Bundesliga, Europa League, national team) Leckie was just plain tired lately and he wanted him to start his vacation a little early.




He's in his mid-20s isn't he lol? He got a break multiple times this season it's really weird not playing your best winger more, they didn't have a Europa game lately either and he only played half the mid-week game.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nalens Oga said:


> He's in his mid-20s isn't he lol? He got a break multiple times this season it's really weird not playing your best winger more, they didn't have a Europa game lately either and he only played half the mid-week game.




He missed two matches with a thigh injury and another because he had played a national team match halfway around the world like two days before. And he sat out two European matches. That was pretty much it. Your comments on Leipzig the past few months show how badly you underestimate how exhausting football is. You have to rotate players. They can't play every match, especially if your team is competing in Europe. Otherwise they'll just underperform and run a higher risk of injury.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Great game in Hannover, though our goalie had a blackout and Bailey scored the exact goal twice. I take the draw. Well done so far, Hannover.


----------



## Bon Esprit

According to various German media Wagner to Bayer is done. Uth from Hoffenheim might choose between BMG and Schalke, will make an announcement soon.
According to Bild Auba has re-signed with BvB.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Kicker says Uth may be a backup option for BVB as well. Lautaro Martinez and Olivier Giroud are also possibilities in the summer. Strange, as Martinez just signed for Atletico.

Weird position for them to be worried about imo.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

They don't trust Isak, and Auba could leave any time. He wants to go, he's made that known, whether he's signed an extension or not. 

I saw something today about Reus maybe leaving. We have the Reus and Pulisic contracts running out in consecutive summers. We might need to bulk up on the wings in the coming transfer windows.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> They don't trust Isak, and Auba could leave any time. He wants to go, he's made that known, whether he's signed an extension or not.
> 
> I saw something today about Reus maybe leaving. We have the Reus and Pulisic contracts running out in consecutive summers. We might need to bulk up on the wings in the coming transfer windows.




Yeah, I figured. 

Reus will apparently look to renegotiate his contract and re-evaluate his future but I don't see how he has any leverage with all these injuries and how he has performed (well; but not on the level of the team's best earner) since he signed his last contract.

Pulisic will leave this coming summer or the next. I can't see any way he stays.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

The speculation has long been Pulisic will only leave for Madrid or Barcelona.

I don't see a move coming in 2018. I think we'll have an answer by the end of next year if he's staying or going, and if he's going, I think it'll be 2019. But for that to even be a realistic option, he'll have to show more between now and then. I absolutely don't buy any of the speculation from some Dortmund fans that he's going to the EPL because he's an English speaker, and I don't see any way he joins Bayern, although I realize some are always going to think any up and coming player at the club will join Bayern.

Weigl to Man City is the transfer I'm most worried about for next summer. If Pep wants him, I think he'll go.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> The speculation has long been Pulisic will only leave for Madrid or Barcelona.
> 
> I don't see a move coming in 2018. I think we'll have an answer by the end of next year if he's staying or going, and if he's going, I think it'll be 2019. But for that to even be a realistic option, he'll have to show more between now and then. I absolutely don't buy any of the speculation from some Dortmund fans that he's going to the EPL because he's an English speaker, and I don't see any way he joins Bayern, although I realize some are always going to think any up and coming player at the club will join Bayern.
> 
> Weigl to Man City is the transfer I'm most worried about for next summer. If Pep wants him, I think he'll go.




Surely he'd have value as an American - and clearly the best American player - to Real Madrid, whether he's ready or not. But yeah, he could play another four years at Dortmund and still only be 23 and theoretically still in the spring of his career. 

Pep can f*** off. Though I think Dortmund could likely find a decent Weigl replacement in Hoffenheim.


----------



## ecemleafs

how many games could marco reus have possibly played since signing his last contract?


----------



## cgf

Or in Berlin. Won't be shocked if either Geiger or Maier end up being Weigl's peers.


----------



## Bon Esprit

According to focus BvB are trying to bring back Micki.
Dortmund baggert schon wieder an einem früheren BVB-Star, der krachend scheiterte - Video
Original source is the independent.

Also BvB are interested in Yerry Mina (Palmeiras) according to kicker.
Alle Ligen, Wechselbörse 2017/18

I read somewhere Maximiliano Romero to Dortmund is almost done. IIRC Stuttgart was after him, too.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

His wages are gonna be way too high.


----------



## YNWA14

cgf said:


> Or in Berlin. Won't be shocked if either Geiger or Maier end up being Weigl's peers.



You're pretty high on Arne Maier eh? I thought he was more attack minded than Weigl.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> His wages are gonna be way too high.



There's alot of rumours regarding Dortmund these days.
BVB laut Medienbericht an Akanji vom FC Basel interessiert

I don't get the talk about another offensive player/s at all. Defence is their weakness.


----------



## Albatros

Bon Esprit said:


> I don't get the talk about another offensive player/s at all. Defence is their weakness.




Offensive players have higher transfer fees when sold forward.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> There's alot of rumours regarding Dortmund these days.
> BVB laut Medienbericht an Akanji vom FC Basel interessiert
> 
> I don't get the talk about another offensive player/s at all. Defence is their weakness.




Well 2 of the 4 transfers you mentioned in these two posts were CBs? I'm not sure if defense will still be a weakness under Stöger. I agree they have too many attacking midfielders/wide players to add another one. Maybe they're expecting another departure in the summer though.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nice visualization of how mediocre this league is this year. 4-5 teams in all the other top European leagues get more points per match than the second German team.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

This is definitely 3 at the back. The question is whether its 3-4-3 or 3-5-2. Are Kagawa and Pulisic playing centrally or wide? They definitely don't trust Isak though, based on this lineup. I would've liked to see Dahoud get a start, and potentially Zagadou. Auba is obviously out injured, Schurrle's back on the bench. I still don't understand why Subotic gets a bench spot over Sancho.


----------



## YNWA14

Sancho must feel pretty stupid to go to Dortmund while City are cruising and Foden is getting decent amounts of first team time. Sancho could have been in the same boat.


----------



## theprofessor

Tons of pressure on goal by Bayern in the Cup match with Dortmund. And there it is....


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Looked good after the first goal. Shame Muller got that second.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Guerreiro is absolutely useless in a game where we don't have possession. His defense is appalling. Yarmo is the same exact way, just a little higher up the field. We would've been tied there if he used his right foot. Defense all still looking like absolute buffoons. We actually looked kind of competent once Dahoud was brought in.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Yeah Dahoud changed the entire game. Man, Isak has to finish that chance, don't handle that, shoot. Good second half.


----------



## Bon Esprit

This Bailey guy is fast and pretty good at football. I hope he'll play for Jamaica soon.
LOL at Herrlich.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Yeah Dahoud changed the entire game. Man, Isak has to finish that chance, don't handle that, shoot. Good second half.




I'm really surprised why two coaches now have had very little use for Dahoud.

He's a difference maker. Part of why we've struggled is the lack of Weigl, Dahoud, Goetze CM. I'll take that CM over any non-RM central midfield in Europe. If we can get those players on the field together, we can completely control a match. None of the defenders can defend, but when you've got that good of a CM, a great goal scorer and competent wide creators, I think we could be playing a lot better than we have.


----------



## Hadoop

Still a loooong ways to go in the Pokal and even more-so in the CL, but if they can stay healthy (and that's a big if with this veteran-laden squad) Bayern Munich can challenge for the treble again this season.


----------



## theprofessor

Dortmund is a mess right now. No holding midfield, holes in defense, an attack that's a potent as a 70 year old limp cock. Trash it and start over.


----------



## Hadoop

@theprofessor, agree with everything you wrote, but how in the world did your post get past HFBoards' censorship filters?


----------



## Deficient Mode

LMAO


----------



## 555Upstairs

To the surprise of absolutely nobody, Bayern sign Hoffenheim's Sandro Wagner
Bundesliga | Transfermarkt | Winter | alle Wechsel | Saison 2017/18 | bundesliga.de
Will be nice to see Lewandowski get a break every now and then.


----------



## Bon Esprit

theprofessor said:


> Dortmund is a mess right now. No holding midfield, holes in defense, an attack that's a potent as a 70 year old limp cock. Trash it and start over.



Dortmund are not a mess. They weren't good yesterday, of course. But Stöger is way different than Tuchel or Bosz. The team needs to adjust to the new system and finally learn how to play defence. I guess they'll be in better shape after the break.
In other news: Maybe it's just me, but Stöger looked so wrong in this BvB gear yesterday it's not even funny.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Dortmund are not a mess. They weren't good yesterday, of course. But Stöger is way different than Tuchel or Bosz. The team needs to adjust to the new system and finally learn how to play defence. I guess they'll be in better shape after the break.
> In other news: Maybe it's just me, but Stöger looked so wrong in this BvB gear yesterday it's not even funny.




No, he does look weird in it. For sure.

They played defense very well against Hoffenheim. I don't think the transition will be that hard.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

We've also had a ton of injuries, but there's no getting around that the defensive personnel isn't very good. Stoeger should help in that regard, but new players are also needed.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> We've also had a ton of injuries, but there's no getting around that the defensive personnel isn't very good. Stoeger should help in that regard, but new players are also needed.




I think the existing talent just needs a bit of a confidence boost after Bosz. That's a far bigger issue. Other than their hole at RB.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Mario Gomez leaves WOB and joins VfB Stuttgart,
Didn't see that comming...

VfL Wolfsburg: Mario Gomez kehrt zum VfB Stuttgart zurück - WELT


----------



## Bon Esprit

According to Bild 4 players of BvB have the permission to leave:
Schürrle, Subotic, Rode and Durm.

Stöger will keine Neuen - aber vier BVB-Stars dürfen Dortmund im Winter verlassen - Video


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bon Esprit said:


> According to Bild 4 players of BvB have the permission to leave:
> Schürrle, Subotic, Rode and Durm.
> 
> Stöger will keine Neuen - aber vier BVB-Stars dürfen Dortmund im Winter verlassen - Video




Good, they should all go. Take Sokratis and Castro with them, while they're at it.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Good, they should all go. Take Sokratis and Castro with them, while they're at it.




I'm going to be heartbroken if those four leave. What would BVB do without them???


----------



## cgf

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I'm really surprised why two coaches now have had very little use for Dahoud.
> 
> He's a difference maker. Part of why we've struggled is the lack of Weigl, Dahoud, Goetze CM. I'll take that CM over any non-RM central midfield in Europe. If we can get those players on the field together, we can completely control a match. None of the defenders can defend, but when you've got that good of a CM, a great goal scorer and competent wide creators, I think we could be playing a lot better than we have.




Hopefully it's just stoger getting to know his team and Mo will get a bigger role in the ruckrunde; cause I'm starting to worry about his attitude. There were some problems in gladbach and I'm a little anxious that the big move feed his ego and exacerbated those issues. Cause he's an incredible talent who could be the best player on a WC winner; if he puts the work in and can keep himself in top shape.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

cgf said:


> Hopefully it's just stoger getting to know his team and Mo will get a bigger role in the ruckrunde; cause I'm starting to worry about his attitude. There were some problems in gladbach and I'm a little anxious that the big move feed his ego and exacerbated those issues. Cause he's an incredible talent who could be the best player on a WC winner; if he puts the work in and can keep himself in top shape.




Some claim he doesn't defend well, I don't really see it. I think its just one of these young player initiation process things that is annoying and ends up hurting teams often because that player is better than the vets that the coach trusts.


----------



## cgf

Your avi just looks wrong. I got used to seeing Marco in yellow pretty quickly, but Mo doesn't look right without green on his shirt.


----------



## Hadoop

More leagues should have a winter break like the Bundesliga. Might not matter in the short term but IMO the rest will make a difference in 6 months time (i.e. I suspect the stars playing in the BuLi will be fresher in the World Cup)


----------



## cgf

The high scoring 99er who's drawn comparison's to Marco Reus, Justin Steinkötter joins BMG's youth pipeline. They're in a bit of a lull atm but their later classes are really talented.

With the 2001 class looking like it could have multiple exciting talents behind the much hyped Kaan Kurt (Bongard, Adigo, Pfalz & El Bakali all being on the youth NTs' radar); Schoers & Tawiah giving them two of the most exciting german 2002ers, alongside Schalke's Aydin & Hertha's Lazar Samardzic; and Luca Barata being arguably the most hyped 2003er atm the moment (alongside Schalke's Arbnor Aliu).


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Hadoop said:


> More leagues should have a winter break like the Bundesliga. Might not matter in the short term but IMO the rest will make a difference in 6 months time (i.e. I suspect the stars playing in the BuLi will be fresher in the World Cup)




In the long term it's more likely that Germany gets rid of the winter break than the other way around. Pundits may rehash the regeneration argument every year, but the reality is that this week is prime TV real estate and while other leagues are showing premier match-ups the BuLi is nowhere to be seen. And so far we've seen that in football as in most other areas of life..money rules.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich




----------



## Hadoop

Edit: wrong thread.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


>





Squad unity is an issue when half the players are teenagers and transparently only there to be resold for cash within a couple years - but have to play to show off their skills - while the other half are veterans who have come home to the club and feel they own it? I'm shocked. You pay a price for excessive squad turnover just as you pay a price for forcing too many guys to stay who don't want to.


----------



## cgf

I don't know if I'll ever fully accept just how badly Watzke decimated what was poised to become one of the powerhouses of europe under Tuchel.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Apparently Goretzka is off the market.
Transfer-Knüller: Schalke-Youngster Goretzka soll Ende Juni zu Bayern wechseln


----------



## Bon Esprit

Enjoy your "Dinner for one" und Guten Rursch to all.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> I don't know if I'll ever fully accept just how badly Watzke decimated what was poised to become one of the powerhouses of europe under Tuchel.




It's an extremely tricky job. Watzke glamorized the turnover rather than fighting it, but that has its downside too.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> It's an extremely tricky job. Watzke glamorized the turnover rather than fighting it, but that has its downside too.




Sure, there was too big of a gap to the super-giants for it to be simple. But Watzke still f***ed it up spectacularly.

E: I just re-read this and realized that I completely misread what you meant by "it's an extremely tricky job"


----------



## Bon Esprit

Happy new year everyone.

According to Washington Post Bayern Munich want to acquire US talent Taylor Booth, 16yo.

Schürrle is rumoured to leave BvB. Destinations may be VfB Stuttgart (on loan) or West Ham United.

Deal kurz vor Abschluss: US-Talent soll zweiter Wintertransfer der Bayern werden


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bon Esprit said:


> Happy new year everyone.
> 
> According to Washington Post Bayern Munich want to acquire US talent Taylor Booth, 16yo.
> 
> Schürrle is rumoured to leave BvB. Destinations may be VfB Stuttgart (on loan) or West Ham United.
> 
> Deal kurz vor Abschluss: US-Talent soll zweiter Wintertransfer der Bayern werden




Yeah, I saw both of those. Booth is a very tidy CM, he was one of only a few odd birth year players on our sub17 world cup team, and the best of them, very talented young footballer. He also has interest from Schalke in Germany.

Schurrle needs to go. I don't care where it is, get him off the team. I want Sancho taking his minutes until Reus returns.


----------



## theprofessor

Deficient Mode said:


> Squad unity is an issue when half the players are teenagers and transparently only there to be resold for cash within a couple years - but have to play to show off their skills - while the other half are veterans who have come home to the club and feel they own it? I'm shocked. You pay a price for excessive squad turnover just as you pay a price for forcing too many guys to stay who don't want to.




^^^^
This by 1000%. Camaraderie and esprit de corps take time to develop, but the truly special teams in sports have it. Probably the best example was the great Soviet hockey team with the Russian Five in the 1980's. Five players that acted as one. Often, a less talented but unified team can overcome a less unified squad with superior talent.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Sancho was pretty impressive yesterday. I can't wait to watch him play 10 games the rest of the season and be sold back to England in six months.


----------



## 555Upstairs

DFB-Pokal quarter-finals:

Frankfurt - Mainz
Leverkusen - Bremen
Paderborn - Bayern
Schalke - Wolfsburg

DFB-Pokal: Drittligist Paderborn erwartet die Bayern


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Sancho was pretty impressive yesterday. I can't wait to watch him play 10 games the rest of the season and be sold back to England in six months.




Why do you think he'll go after this season? Unless he's asking to go, why would we sell him before his transfer value explodes? 

He should play more though. He's maybe too young to be a regular starter, but he's played like 2 or 3 games so far, and barely played in those matches. Getting Schurrle off the team would help him get some minutes until Reus and Philipp return.


----------



## cgf

It's a shame Schurrle will cost so much in transfer fee & wages, cause I wouldn't mind him as a plan B in case BMG can't get Uth...assuming that my dream of poaching Kuhn & Eggestein isn't feasible. I think we'd see the mainz Schurrle again if he got to play in an attacking trident with Stindl & Raffael, and he'd satiate some of Hecking's instinctual desire for more of an aerial presence.

As is he should just go back to the EPL and make bank.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Why do you think he'll go after this season? Unless he's asking to go, why would we sell him before his transfer value explodes?
> 
> He should play more though. He's maybe too young to be a regular starter, but he's played like 2 or 3 games so far, and barely played in those matches. Getting Schurrle off the team would help him get some minutes until Reus and Philipp return.




His transfer value is going to explode anyway. BVB acquired him for like at most 5% of what he would have been worth to an EPL club if he had had an adult contract.

Probably just my pessimism but anyone can force their way out of Dortmund if they really want to.


----------



## Bon Esprit

So Usain Bolt is going to do a test training at Borussia Dortmund in march. Maybe he's better than Schürrle,

BVB im News-Ticker: Usain Bolt spielt bei Dortmund vor: Das macht mich nervös


----------



## Bon Esprit

Mark Uth will join Schalke this summer. Hoffenheim is running out of forwards.
1899 Hoffenheim: Mark Uth wechselt im Sommer zu Schalke 04


----------



## Deficient Mode

I think Hoffenheim will be fine without Uth. Far less of a problem than replacing Nagelsmann.


----------



## cgf

Kühn n Eggestein to study under Raffa & Stindl it is then...


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

cgf said:


> It's a shame Schurrle will cost so much in transfer fee & wages, cause I wouldn't mind him as a plan B in case BMG can't get Uth...assuming that my dream of poaching Kuhn & Eggestein isn't feasible. I think we'd see the mainz Schurrle again if he got to play in an attacking trident with Stindl & Raffael, and he'd satiate some of Hecking's instinctual desire for more of an aerial presence.
> 
> As is he should just go back to the EPL and make bank.




Schurrle has done jack since the World Cup, which is almost 4 years ago now, who knows who is still interested. It'd be a dumb transfer for any team really unless Schurrle's financial demands have become more in line with his performance level.


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Schurrle has done jack since the World Cup, which is almost 4 years ago now, who knows who is still interested. *It'd be a dumb transfer *for any team really unless Schurrle's financial demands have become more in line with his performance level.




When has that ever stopped EPL clubs? Especially for someone who's "EPL-proven"?


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> When has that ever stopped EPL clubs? Especially for someone who's "EPL-proven"?



I think Schürrle really believes he is still in Löw's plans wich he might not.
If, as rumoured, West Ham are interested BvB should sell him asap.


----------



## John Pedro

Shame that Bailey didn't score on that play that he disrespected the defender. Brandt was a ghost.


----------



## Bure80

Looks like Akanji to Dortmund is done.
Medien: BVB verpflichtet Abwehrspieler Akanji für 21,5 Mio. Euro aus Basel


----------



## Bon Esprit

Hehehe, another 3 in the bank. HSV lost again. Will it happen this year?


----------



## Live in the Now

Great goal by Werner right after Keita is subbed off.


----------



## cgf

Live in the Now said:


> Great goal by Werner right after Keita is subbed off.




Keita's a great player, but Timo is Leipzig's talisman. Comes on in the 63rd minute of a tie game; has a goal & an assist by the 71st.

Even with RB's naivety I can't help but wonder how differently their CL campaign would've gone if Timo were fit; they're just a much better & more effective team when he's on the pitch.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bure80 said:


> Looks like Akanji to Dortmund is done.
> Medien: BVB verpflichtet Abwehrspieler Akanji für 21,5 Mio. Euro aus Basel




Terrific news. Sokratis can now pack his bags.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Aubameyang left out of the squad again for disciplinary reasons. Sigh.


----------



## Evilo

We did hear a couple of weeks ago that Auba doesn't have character problems.

Unfortunately, he seems to have developped a big big head. Without much inside it.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Köln won the Rheinderby. LOL.
Some teams might drop points vs. Cologne. Living dead are still alive.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Isak starting in Auba's place. Sancho starting too. I'm excited.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Evilo said:


> *We did hear a couple of weeks ago that Auba doesn't have character problems.*
> 
> Unfortunately, he seems to have developped a big big head. Without much inside it.



Who said that? In my book Auba is a (talented) POS. He and Keita (for different reasons) can leave the league asap.


----------



## Evilo

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/winter-mercato-window-rumors.2387947/page-48#post-139785021


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Evilo said:


> We did hear a couple of weeks ago that Auba doesn't have character problems.
> 
> Unfortunately, he seems to have developped a big big head. Without much inside it.




So you are going to decide that he has character problems because he forgot about a meeting?

And also, this is very different from Sanchez who supposedly is such a big problem in the Arsenal locker room that his teammates don't want to celebrate goals with him. Auba is late at times, and misses some important meetings. He's done this a few times. Shouldn't do it, and its recurring, but character problems because he misses some meetings? Come on, now.


----------



## Evilo

Third time the player gets suspended in less than a year.

But no, he doesn't have character problems


----------



## Deficient Mode

I don't really give him the benefit of the doubt anymore.

But - to quote AI - we're talking about practice.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I like that Sancho is playing over Schurrle. Don't like that Kagawa is playing over Dahoud. I've seen nothing about Bartra. Does anyone know where he is?


----------



## Bon Esprit

Evilo said:


> http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/winter-mercato-window-rumors.2387947/page-48#post-139785021



At least it wasn't me.
Auba has his China thing going for a couple of time now. Cash in,Dortmund, and let this dude leave and move on.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I like that Sancho is playing over Schurrle. Don't like that Kagawa is playing over Dahoud. I've seen nothing about Bartra. Does anyone know where he is?




Sick apparently. Pulisic too.


----------



## Cassano

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> And also, this is very different from Sanchez who supposedly is such a big problem in the Arsenal locker room that his teammates don't want to celebrate goals with him. Auba is late at times, and misses some important meetings. He's done this a few times. Shouldn't do it, and its recurring, but character problems because he misses some meetings? Come on, now.



Alexis is a problem only to his teammates because he's been carrying them on his back for years. He's never had disciplinary issues with the club at all and is the model citizen for a footballer.

Meanwhile Aubameyang has been disciplined 3 times from the club.


----------



## Deficient Mode

All Might said:


> Alexis is a problem only to his teammates because he's been carrying them on his back for years. He's never had disciplinary issues with the club at all and *is the model citizen for a footballer.*
> 
> Meanwhile Aubameyang has been disciplined 3 times from the club.




Not quite: Sampaoli slams Chile players including Vidal and Sánchez


----------



## Evilo

There's no comparison really.

Heck, Auba even said on social media that he was wondering what Milan was doing not proposing him a transfer. That's embarrassing.


----------



## Cassano

Deficient Mode said:


> Not quite: Sampaoli slams Chile players including Vidal and Sánchez



_Alexis Sánchez: "He wakes up with his headphones on and sits alone for breakfast, not talking to anyone."_

The absolute madman.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Evilo said:


> There's no comparison really.
> 
> Heck, Auba even said on social media that he was wondering what Milan was doing not proposing him a transfer. That's embarrassing.




He was very very close to leaving for China last summer and the club were willing to let him move on. IDK. At that point it's not as egregious.


----------



## Evilo

I don't think anyone under contract (and paid big money) should say some teams should act and sign him. That's pretty bad.


----------



## Deficient Mode

All Might said:


> _Alexis Sánchez: "He wakes up with his headphones on and sits alone for breakfast, not talking to anyone."_
> 
> The absolute madman.




Someone stop him. He's gone too far.


----------



## Cassano

Also it's pure speculation by the media that Alexis is disliked by his teammates. No one came out to say it.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Sancho looks very good and ready for more playing time.

Bürki back in good form as well.

Yarmolenko... not so much.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Goetze is terrific. Excellent footballer.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Sancho looks very good and ready for more playing time.
> 
> Bürki back in good form as well.
> 
> Yarmolenko... not so much.




Isak doesn't look ready for more playing time. Outside of one Cup match, he's looked pretty bad for Dortmund. Limited minutes, but I think a loan might be what happens.

If Auba misses next week, whether by suspension or a move to China, they could move Yarmo to CF. Sancho looks good on the left, and Pulisic is better on the right, so I think that could work well.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich




----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Isak doesn't look ready for more playing time. Outside of one Cup match, he's looked pretty bad for Dortmund. Limited minutes, but I think a loan might be what happens.
> 
> If Auba misses next week, whether by suspension or a move to China, they could move Yarmo to CF. Sancho looks good on the left, and Pulisic is better on the right, so I think that could work well.




I don't mind Isak too much right now. He's certainly playing better than Yarmo. I don't think Auba will miss next week judging from Stöger's comments.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Yarmo.........


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Yarmo.........




I wish Sancho had taken that


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

If you are bringing Schurrle in, take Yarmo out


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Isak

Better than taking out Sancho


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> If you are bringing Schurrle in, take Yarmo out




Yarmo has had a couple decent scenes today, but he really needs to hit the net.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Yarmo has had a couple decent scenes today, but he really needs to hit the net.




Such a frustrating player. Very technical, excellent feet and can score some goals, but his decision making is bad, he's one-footed and he's so slow.

I think our better signing in the summer was Philipp.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Pretty sure that was going in.


----------



## Deficient Mode

At least BVB are catching up to Bayern in the FC Hollywood department


----------



## SchwenningerWildWing

They have to sell him asap, itˋs a gong show what he is doing. I hope there will be no takers in Europe and this clown has to play in China. Grow up and act like an adult. But I think he is dumb as bread

On a side note, I hate the Video referee, get rid of this BS. When a ref is not seeing a damn clear foul after he watches five replays, he should quit being a ref. Mr.Zwayer, you canˋt be that blind, it is impossible to be that blind.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

SchwenningerWildWing said:


> They have to sell him asap, itˋs a gong show what he is doing. I hope there will be no takers in Europe and this clown has to play in China. Grow up and act like an adult. But I think he is dumb as bread
> 
> On a side note, I hate the Video referee, get rid of this BS. When a ref is not seeing a damn clear foul after he watches five replays, he should quit being a ref. Mr.Zwayer, you canˋt be that blind, it is impossible to be that blind.




We need to qualify for the Champions League. I don't want to sell him.

Isak can't score goals yet, and we don't have the players right now to play through the middle, especially with Philipp injured.


----------



## cgf

When does Philipp get back? With him, Reus coming back and Yarmo settling in more, you can still qualify for the CL without auba; though he would certainly make it a lot smoother.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

cgf said:


> When does Philipp get back? With him, Reus coming back and Yarmo settling in more, you can still qualify for the CL without auba; though he would certainly make it a lot smoother.




Yarmo looks worse as he gets more playing time. He's actually really bad. I don't think I'm exaggerating either. Awful out of possession, mucks up a lot of attacks because of bad decision making and he's so slow.

Transfermarkt expects him back beginning of April. I really don't think we can afford to sell Aubameyang before the summer.


----------



## cgf

This is what you get for not selling Schurrle to West Ham and hijacking Uth from Schalke


----------



## Deficient Mode

I think even without Auba they could find a decent short-term solution at center forward. Schürrle could be fine there, but he wasn't really even playing all that centrally today. Or put Götze back in as a center forward and start Dahoud in his place. Reus is supposed to be back in less than a month. They can hold on until then. All the other top teams after Bayern are so mediocre I think they'll be fine. Maybe ask for Giroud back from Arsenal since he's barely playing.


----------



## SchwenningerWildWing

You can't keep such a player on your team, he is a disgrace. And the Bundesliga is that weak this year behind Bayern, you can qualify for the CL even without such a dumbass. I'm in a no way a BVB fan, but I really feel for them here, Aubameyang was a fun player the last few years, but his behavior is absolutely unacceptable in a team game. He should really grow up fast. And after what I read on social media yesterday, 90% of BVB fans want his ass shipped out asap


----------



## Bure80

BVB is interested in Jonathan Tah.
Borussia Dortmund an Jonathan Tah interessiert - müssen diese Publikumslieblinge dann gehen?

Would be a good signing. Looks like Dortmunds defense will look very different next year.


----------



## cgf

Now that would be a big signing for their backline. He needs a step up to push him again, but the talent there is huge.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

That would be a good signing, I'm not sure we need him though, if the Akanji signing works well and Bartra stays. 

We could have a top 4 next season in some order of Akanji, Toprak, Bartra, Zagadou. If Bartra goes though, it would be a good signing. We can't have Sokratis taking key minutes, he needs to go in the summer.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Tah would be a great signing for Dortmund.


----------



## Bon Esprit

According to focus Auba is negotiating with Arsenal. Fee might be around 60-70 m euros. Meanwhile BvB is interested in Chelsea player Michy Batshuayi. Bartra and Subotic have permission to leave.

BVB: Batshuayi soll Aubameyang ersetzen - Bundesliga


----------



## Bure80

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> That would be a good signing, I'm not sure we need him though, if the Akanji signing works well and Bartra stays.




I see Tah as the better option. For a defender Bartra has a lack of size, strenght and speed.
Should help to solve the weakness at set-pieces.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bartra struggled under Bosz, who needs extremely athletic defenders to make up for the extremely high pressing, but he's not exactly slow (compared to Zagadou or Subotic) or weak either, and his effectiveness with the ball is superior to Tah's and still extremely underrated.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Yeah, I don't think Bartra's slow. He's a fine player. He's prone to defensive lapses and trying to do too much with the ball, but he's one of our better defenders. I'd prefer he not go. I actually think we are starting to build some good depth at the position, I'm more worried about the other defensive positions.


----------



## Cassano

How does Goretzka fit with Bayern next season?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Schürrle starting in Yarmolenko's place, as I hoped for. Sancho gets another start after his previous good performance. Just wish Dahoud could get a start for once.



All Might said:


> How does Goretzka fit with Bayern next season?




Takes Vidal's spot


----------



## YNWA14

Kind of weird that Dahoud isn't starting for multiple managers now no? Something wrong behind the scenes maybe?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Curtinho said:


> Kind of weird that Dahoud isn't starting for multiple managers now no? Something wrong behind the scenes maybe?




He's not even on the bench actually. Everyone's healthy in central midfield, but still... can't imagine what Castro and Sahin have over him, unless it's a matter of seniority or Dahoud isn't giving his all in training.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

That was a good defensive half. We've been bad with the end product. Throw Isak on sometime soon for Schurrle.

I don't understand the Dahoud usage either. When he plays, he plays really well. He should be starting, or at least big minutes off the bench. He certainly shouldn't be behind Castro on the depth chart. I guess Sahin is there because he's a defensive midfielder and Dahoud isn't, but why Castro over Dahoud?


----------



## Savant

As Curt said, if Dahoud isn’t getting picked by multiple managers it’s a red flag unless he is hurt.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Last week was a lack of end product. This week it's just poor intensity and structure in attack. Weigl is neutralized and Sokratis is useless.


----------



## cgf

Mo got lazy in training his final season in gladbach and had issues with his stamina because of it. It wouldn't be shocking if he isn't in the best of shape right now and is taking some time to realize that he has to keep working hard & improving...even if he is good enough to start for a CL team or NT based solely on how much he's polished his talent already. That would explain why he shines so brightly whenever he's let onto the pitch, but hasn't become one of Stoger's favs...I'm willing to ignore everything that happened under Bosz because he was clearly an idiot. Throw in some adjustments to going from a small town team like Gladbach to huge urban megolith like Dortmund, and I won't start to worry until Mo is continuing to get ignored next year.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

yeah great start to the half

f***s sake

Team needs Mr. selfish, though I hate saying that


----------



## Deficient Mode

Simple but effective attack. BVB really need to wake up now.



MrFunnyWobbl said:


> yeah great start to the half
> 
> ****s sake
> 
> Team needs Mr. selfish, though I hate saying that




He wouldn't have made a difference in this match. They aren't generating chances anyway.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Deficient Mode said:


> Simple but effective attack. BVB really need to wake up now.
> 
> 
> 
> He wouldn't have made a difference in this match. They aren't generating chances anyway.




You're right, but are they not generating chances cause they can't rely on his speed?


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Generating some chances now, Pulisic playing a big role in doing so.


----------



## Deficient Mode

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> You're right, but are they not generating chances cause they can't rely on his speed?




No. This happened many times when Auba was in the squad.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Deficient Mode said:


> No. This happened many times when Auba was in the squad.




Fair.

Is it me or does it feel like a pattern that BVB has a quiet first half, finishes 0-0 or 0-1 for them and then we come out and generate chances, like a 0-0 game wasn't enough motivation?


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

BVB signs Duda?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Isak on for Götze. Not a fan of that.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Sancho is good


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Do you like the decision to take the run by Isak there @Deficient Mode ?

Nice play by Sancho


----------



## YNWA14

Sancho is an incredibe talent.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Curtinho said:


> Sancho is an incredibe talent.




I've been very impressed this half.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Man this sport needs replays in the box so bad

it's comical how bad penalty calls are in this game.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Schurrle is so bad. I don't want him to play any more games for this club. If he takes any minutes away from Sancho or Isak the rest of the season, its a complete waste. 

Taking out Goetze is bizarre, if its not to manage his minutes, which it actually might've been. 

We were pretty good in that second half. Sancho was excellent, I thought, just needs to improve his finishing. Does anyone think he could make England's World Cup squad? 

Sokratis played well today, best game of the season from him. The defense was good today. Toljan has absolutely no left-foot, I don't know how much longer we can continue playing him at left-back. Next match we need one of the two LB's back or I'd probably try Zagadou there before Toljan. Toljan defended well, except for the goal, but he messes up so many attacks because his left foot is so bad.


----------



## Deficient Mode

LMAO this is so good. Definitely embracing the fan hate.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> LMAO this is so good. Definitely embracing the fan hate.





Thats it, I wanted us to keep him until the summer, but I've now changed my opinion. Completely unprofessional, he can go.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Heynckes words about Dembele and Aubameyang are rich, considering he has Coman at his club. He's not wrong in what he says about those players, but I'm not sure he's in a place to be lecturing anyone about this situation.


----------



## cgf

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Thats it, I wanted us to keep him until the summer, but I've now changed my opinion. Completely unprofessional, he can go.



? That makes him a lot more likable.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Heynckes words about Dembele and Aubameyang are rich, considering he has Coman at his club. He's not wrong in what he says about those players, but I'm not sure he's in a place to be lecturing anyone about this situation.




Bayern are all team players according to Jupp. No egoists there.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

cgf said:


> ? That makes him a lot more likable.




He's misbehaving.

Dembele misbehaved, why else would he be wearing a Dembele jersey? 

I also don't think its appropriate for a player who was left out of the squad to be out and about instead of watching his team play. It creates an unnecessary distraction that the club is going to have to answer for.


----------



## Live in the Now

He's been at Dortmund for three and now four managers, given them his best years. Perfectly within his rights to want to leave and if he's been excluded from the squad entirely, there's no reason for him to pretend.


----------



## Albatros

No one forced him to extend his contract until 2021 last summer. He was happy to take the extra money, but now is not willing to work for it.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Live in the Now said:


> He's been at Dortmund for three and now four managers, given them his best years. Perfectly within his rights to want to leave and if he's been excluded from the squad entirely, there's no reason for him to pretend.




Being excluded from the squad is his own doing. I understand him wanting to leave but the sudden timing and injuries among Dortmund's other goal scorers make it harder on the team than it should be.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Live in the Now said:


> He's been at Dortmund for three and now four managers, given them his best years. Perfectly within his rights to want to leave and if he's been excluded from the squad entirely, there's no reason for him to pretend.




There's no defending that... He can protest and want out, I usually side with the players in these situations. However, Auba is acting clownish.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Live in the Now said:


> He's been at Dortmund for three and now four managers, given them his best years. Perfectly within his rights to want to leave and if he's been excluded from the squad entirely, there's no reason for him to pretend.




He extended his contract with Dortmund not too long ago by another year until 2021. There's this flippant phrase that contracts don't mean anything anymore, but the reality is that for the majority of players they do mean something and there's certain standard rules of the industry regarding how that works. It's only a certain type of player who thinks the world is their oyster and they can do what they want.


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> He extended his contract with Dortmund not too long ago by another year until 2021. There's this flippant phrase that contracts don't mean anything anymore, but the reality is that for the majority of players they do mean something and there's certain standard rules of the industry regarding how that works. *It's only a certain type of player who thinks the world is their oyster and they can do what they want.*



aka talented ones


----------



## Just Win

Bailey with a brilliant back-heel goal


----------



## cgf

Boooo, Nagelsmann's boys are supposed to win this one for the good guys...granted if BMG comes out in the second half content with the way they dominated the first half, they'll concede an equalizer and throw even more points away because of Hecking's natural instinct to bunker...


----------



## samabam

love that aubameyang treats dortmund like he does, even more funny when Zorc whines about other Clubs interfering...typical Dortmund double standard


----------



## cgf

Baier & Dahoud should join Kruse & JoJo in Bremen. Baier's singlehandedly annoying the BMG build up play this half & helping FCA get some flow towards Sommer's net.


----------



## 555Upstairs

I'd lie if I said I didn't enjoy Freiburg beating Leipzig.


----------



## samabam

555Upstairs said:


> I'd lie if I said I didn't enjoy Freiburg beating Leipzig.




Effin amazing, watched the game in a pub in Freiburg, the last 20 minutes were something else to experience


----------



## Power Man

Hertha BVB is good


----------



## Bon Esprit

Hamburg at Köln in 30 minutes.


----------



## Power Man

What a fun match.

BVB had their chances


----------



## gary69

So, Köln are creeping back if they can hold on to this 2-goal lead.


----------



## Bon Esprit

gary69 said:


> So, Köln are creeping back if they can hold on to this 2-goal lead.



History will be made. HSV will get relegated finally. And maybe Köln won't get relegated.


----------



## Deficient Mode

HSV will still find a way to finish 4th last.


----------



## 555Upstairs

Bon Esprit said:


> History will be made. HSV will get relegated finally. And maybe Köln won't get relegated.



Let's stay realistic. We all know they'll somehow finish 16th by like one point and then fluke their way past whichever 2.BL team they face. Just like every year.


----------



## Bon Esprit

555Upstairs said:


> Let's stay realistic. We all know they'll somehow finish 16th by like one point and then fluke their way past whichever 2.BL team they face. Just like every year.



No, this time it will happen. Köln is worse. They might finish last. What other team is as bad as Hamburg? I don't see any. Even the promoted clubs like Stuttgart or Hannover are better.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> HSV will still find a way to finish 4th last.




Nah it's time for them to win the HSV-cup against the third best team in BuLi2 again *sigh*


----------



## HajdukSplit

All signs indicate Gisdol will be sacked tomorrow

I also think this is the year HSV go down, they look terrible like in the past years but this time there is no Darmstadt/Ingolstadt/Furth type teams who are totally cut adrift, to me they are easily the worst team along with Koln but Koln have hit some decent form


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

cgf said:


> aka talented ones




Plenty of talented players who haven't handled it like that. The words you're looking for are 'diva' and 'poorly advised'.


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Plenty of talented players who haven't handled it like that. The words you're looking for are 'diva' and 'poorly advised'.




There are lots of talented players who coerced their clubs to sell them without boycotting the team entirely, too, though. What Dembele and Aubameyang have done just takes the veneer of respectability off of it without really being much more coercive.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Gisdol got sacked.

Who's next?


----------



## Bon Esprit

Bernd Hollerbach is supposed to be the next coach at HSV.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

So, Arnold scored an absolutely filthy free kick yesterday.


----------



## Vipers31

Ulreich has done a good job lately, but he has been dreadful today. Not that he's the only problem with this game.


----------



## Vipers31

... thankfully, Lewa, Müller and James have all had their moments of brilliance.


----------



## gary69

Will Neuer be back in time for the CL matches? I saw initial reports that he'll be out for 6 months, then that he'll be back in January already. What's the latest on him?


----------



## 555Upstairs

gary69 said:


> Will Neuer be back in time for the CL matches? I saw initial reports that he'll be out for 6 months, then that he'll be back in January already. What's the latest on him?



Latest I've heard is possibly after the international break in late March, so he'll most likely miss both Istanbul matches.


----------



## Bon Esprit

So, according to Bild Nagelsmann won't become Bayern's next coach, because he's too young.
Hoffenheim-Trainer kommt nicht - Nagelsmann zu jung für die Bayern-Stars

Exactly what I tought.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> So, according to Bild Nagelsmann won't become Bayern's next coach, because he's too young.
> Hoffenheim-Trainer kommt nicht - Nagelsmann zu jung für die Bayern-Stars
> 
> Exactly what I tought.



It would be nice if Bild were right on this, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> It would be nice if Bild were right on this, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case



Bild is crap, that correct. But usually they have their football right.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Neven Subotic to AS St. Etienne.
Fix: Subotic wechselt nach Saint Etienne


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> Bild is crap, that correct. But usually they have their football right.




I'm not arguing that, just saying that they are wrong on this topic. I dunno if Nagelsmann has already signed all of the paperwork to go to Bayern, but he will be behind their bench next.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Gnabry ripping Bayern up. Wouldn’t they be allowed to say he has to sit against them? Guess that wasn’t included in the loan terms.


----------



## Bon Esprit

East Coast Bias said:


> Gnabry ripping Bayern up. Wouldn’t they be allowed to say he has to sit against them? Guess that wasn’t included in the loan terms.



In Germany they don't have those clauses. But I don't think Bayern don't care too much. They might be happy he's developping well. I read somewhere he'll be at Bayern this summer for sure.


----------



## Bon Esprit

If Köln can win this they are back in the race. Unreal.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Leave it to BVB to concede like that.


----------



## Cassano

I'm a bit puzzled as to why Weigl and Dahoud didnt start. Aren't they mega prospects? Injured or in bad form?


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

All Might said:


> I'm a bit puzzled as to why Weigl and Dahoud didnt start. Aren't they mega prospects? Injured or in bad form?




You and everyone else. The midfield of Castro and Sahin was brutal offensively and defensively.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bürki complains about fans jeering him and Zorc scolds him in the press, saying it's false and blames the players. Like I said, there's a new FC Hollywood in town. 



All Might said:


> I'm a bit puzzled as to why Weigl and Dahoud didnt start. Aren't they mega prospects? Injured or in bad form?




Weigl isn't usually left out but hasn't been in great form. No one knows about Dahoud but a couple pages back cgf speculated it had to do with fitness issues.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I didn't see more than like the last 35 minutes, too early of a match. I was rather surprised to see Goetze and Weigl weren't starting. I read Sahin played a part in the first goal against, Sahin was completely at fault for the second goal. 

We didn't look too good, Freiburg bunkered, and we couldn't break it, looked kind of similar to the away fixture earlier this season. 

Why would you not start your best player? Why would you not start another of your best players? The guy who replaced that player in the starting lineup was at fault for two goals.


----------



## Bon Esprit

VfB Stuttgart fire Wolf.
It's always a problem when the gap between reality and aspiration is that wide.
A problem many former bigshots have.

VfB Stuttgart trennt sich von Trainer Wolf


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> VfB Stuttgart fire Wolf.
> It's always a problem when the gap between reality and aspiration is that wide.
> A problem many former bigshots have.
> 
> VfB Stuttgart trennt sich von Trainer Wolf




Next bottom of the table trainer picked up by Dortmund.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Next bottom of the table trainer picked up by Dortmund.




Back up choice to Nagelsmann. 

He should take a few months off though instead of going back into work. If we don't get Nagelsmann, I think he's the top target, and its not like another top team is going to be hiring him anytime soon.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> Next bottom of the table trainer picked up by Dortmund.



No, he is from their system, but it won't happen.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> No, he is from their system, but it won't happen.




They pursued him heavily before signing Stöger. When Nagelsmann goes to bayern instead, it should surprise no one if they circle back to Wolf.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> No, he is from their system, but it won't happen.




Better odds than Nagelsmann, that's for sure. Watzke likes Wolf a lot.


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> They pursued him heavily before signing Stöger. When Nagelsmann goes to bayern instead, it should surprise no one if they circle back to Wolf.



So Klopp, Tuchel Bosz, Stöger; Wolf?
Not gonna happen imo.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> So Klopp, Tuchel Bosz, Stöger; Wolf?
> Not gonna happen imo.




Why not? Bosz is the only outlier in that group the rest all came from comparable clubs...at least in terms of where they were at the time those coaches were with them, not in terms of history.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Even if Nagelsmann were BVB's first choice - which he probably is - there's the issue of competition. Not just Bayern, but potentially one of the top EPL jobs. Arsenal, Chelsea, and United all have disgruntled managers, or themselves should be unhappy with their managers. I know you seem to think that Nagelsmann doesn't have enough the experience or reputation for a job like that, but there's enough hype for him in English media to think that one of those clubs would take a shot at him anyway. Especially Arsenal. BVB would probably make more sense for him than any of those clubs but Bayern, but there's much more uncertainty on Nagelsmann's end.

With Wolf, he is probably Watzke's #2 candidate and BVB is easily the best club that would hire him. Do the math and you'll see the odds of BVB hiring him are significantly higher.


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> Why not? Bosz is the only outlier in that group the rest all came from comparable clubs...at least in terms of where they were at the time those coaches were with them, not in terms of history.



BvB is a CL club (at least they are supposed to be) and I'd think they can't afford another failure.
I think they'll go for a established coach. My money would be on Nagelsmann. The best fit .
Nagelsmann to BvB, Tuchel to Bayern (or EPL)


----------



## Bon Esprit

Btw latest rumour is that Antony Modeste will replace Auba at BvB.
BVB und Arsenal wohl bei Aubameyang-Ablöse einig - heißes Gerücht um Modeste


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> BvB is a CL club (at least they are supposed to be) and I'd think they can't afford another failure.
> I think they'll go for a established coach. My money would be on Nagelsmann. The best fit .
> Nagelsmann to BvB, Tuchel to Bayern (or EPL)




BVB would love to get Nagelsmann, but they've already lost out on him.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Tayfun Korkut takes over VfB Stuttgart. Well, good luck with that.


----------



## Vipers31

cgf said:


> BVB would love to get Nagelsmann, but they've already lost out on him.




At this point, I am close to giving up hope for Nagelsmann at Bayern next summer. Our board, Hoeneß for the most part, seem to have zeroed in on convincing Jupp to stay a little longer with no backup plan. If Jupp gives in, I think JN remains a good option for 2019, because I'm but sure Hoffenheim will let him go in the summer. If Jupp doesn't want to, I have no idea what happens, but it seems like Tuchel would be a more realistic best-case scenario than JN right now.


----------



## Vipers31

Bon Esprit said:


> Tayfun Korkut takes over VfB Stuttgart. Well, good luck with that.



I'm out of data at work so I can't do it now, but I mean to post the 11Freunde photo series with twitter reactions to his appointment when I'm back home. Hilarious stuff - unless you're a Stuttgart fan, or into "Galgenhumor"...


----------



## Bon Esprit

Vipers31 said:


> I'm out of data at work so I can't do it now, but I mean to post the 11Freunde photo series with twitter reactions to his appointment when I'm back home. Hilarious stuff - unless you're a Stuttgart fan, or into "Galgenhumor"...



Well, I read somewhere Stuttgart fans don't seem to be amused with Korkut's appointment.
At first I liked Korkut at Hannover, but that didn't last ...


----------



## Bon Esprit

Mehmedi from Bayer to WOB it seems.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bartra leaves and Sokratis stays. 

I've given Stoeger the benefit of the doubt so far with the back-line because its been more solid than under Bosz, but his CB choices have been very strange. He completely froze out Bartra.

They have to get rid of Sokratis in the summer, can't let him stay any longer. He's been awful for over a year now. And I still think we need to bring in another CB, now that Bartra left. I would've preferred keeping Bartra, and sticking with Bartra, Toprak, Akanji, Zagadou, but now we have to go out and sign a mobile CB who can pass the ball.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Reus is back anyway.


----------



## bluesfan94

Didn’t Bartra ask to leave because of the bus attack?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

bluesfan94 said:


> Didn’t Bartra ask to leave because of the bus attack?




I think there was some speculation about that, but I didn't see it confirmed.


----------



## Bon Esprit

bluesfan94 said:


> Didn’t Bartra ask to leave because of the bus attack?



Why would he? Crap like this can happen everywhere. Betis is a step back for sure.


----------



## Vipers31

Bon Esprit said:


> Well, I read somewhere Stuttgart fans don't seem to be amused with Korkut's appointment.




One could say that...







A few more in picture form and mostly German language at the aforementioned 11Freunde article.


----------



## bluesfan94

Bon Esprit said:


> Why would he? Crap like this can happen everywhere. Betis is a step back for sure.



It's one thing to play for a team where it's a potential risk it's another thing to play for a team where the traumatic experience already happened.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

bluesfan94 said:


> It's one thing to play for a team where it's a potential risk it's another thing to play for a team where the traumatic experience already happened.




Waiting for SEPH to tell us what's what.


----------



## Bon Esprit

bluesfan94 said:


> It's one thing to play for a team where it's a potential risk it's another thing to play for a team where the traumatic experience already happened.



I do respect that. But going to Sevilla won't change a thing.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Hilarious people trying to understand fear and anxiety...


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> I do respect that. But going to Sevilla won't change a thing.




It's not the threat of dying a horrific death that's the issue at all though. It's the memory.

Anyway, maybe Dortmund's new full-time manager this summer will value him more highly than Stöger does and convince him to stay once his loan is over.


----------



## bluesfan94

Bon Esprit said:


> I do respect that. But going to Sevilla won't change a thing.



Uh, yes it will. It's a completely different setting that doesn't constantly remind him of the trauma that occurred.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> It's not the threat of dying a horrific death that's the issue at all though. It's the memory.
> 
> Anyway, maybe Dortmund's new full-time manager this summer will value him more highly than Stöger does and convince him to stay once his loan is over.



You don't get rid of a traumatic experience when you go to another place. You need professional help. You take the memory everywhere you go.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Hilarious people trying to understand fear and anxiety...



You, sir, are a genius.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Bon Esprit said:


> You, sir, are a genius.




A very stable genius.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> You don't get rid of a traumatic experience when you go to another place. You need professional help. You take the memory everywhere you go.




And the memory of it is far stronger and more vivid when you are surrounded by reminders of it all day.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> And the memory of it is far stronger and more vivid when you are surrounded by reminders of it all day.



Bartra needs help. No doubt about it. Of course the bus incident was traumatic. But going to Betis won't help. He still is a good enough player to go to a competative team. If he thinks Betis is the right choice I'm okay with it. It's his career and his life. 
But thinking leaving a place of a traumatic incident for a different place is simply wrong.


----------



## maclean

Bon Esprit said:


> But thinking leaving a place of a traumatic incident for a different place is simply wrong.




It's not just a different place, it's the country he is from and spent most of his life in. Like, it happens to people all the time, they go to another country, have a few bad experiences and then decide to go home. Because it's the place where they feel safe.


----------



## Savant

Some weak links with Demirbay going to Liverpool. How would he look next to Naby Keita?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Savant said:


> Some weak links with Demirbay going to Liverpool. How would he look next to Naby Keita?




Can he put on a pair of gloves?


----------



## cgf

Savant said:


> Some weak links with Demirbay going to Liverpool. How would he look next to Naby Keita?




He could be a great replacement for midfielder-Coutinho if his form continued without Nagelsmann's structure to support him. He's always been extremely talented but I'm not complete sure if Nagelsmann helped him finally figure things out, or if he just put him in a position where he couldn't over-think things and instead could just rely on that great touch & passing technique to keep things flowing quickly.

If his brain rely has caught up to his talent dare I say there would be little drop off from midfielder-Coutinho to Demirbay; though again I'm not convinced that has happened. As Demirbay's reading of the game is what stalled his development with Hamburg long before they sold him to Dusseldorf (where Hoffenheim snagged him from).

Geiger I am convinced will thrive without JN because I was sold on him long before he hit their senior team; his intelligence was blatant from the start...as it was with Kimmich. And Amiri I'm confident in if he gets another year with a quality coach to finish polishing that talent & creativity. But Demirbay was a bit of a dumb-dumb before Nagelsmann got his hands on him, so I'm curious to see how he does under a different manager.


----------



## Bon Esprit

"Batsman" to BvB official
Langkamp to Bremen official

In other news Jeff Strasser (coach of Lautern) will be out for awhile. Get well soon, dude.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Bon Esprit said:


> "Batsman" to BvB official
> Langkamp to Bremen official
> 
> In other news Jeff Strasser (coach of Lautern) will be out for awhile. Get well soon, dude.



Just read on Bild.de that Strasser is out. Frontzek will replace him. Doesn't sound good. Get well.


----------



## YNWA14

cgf said:


> He could be a great replacement for midfielder-Coutinho if his form continued without Nagelsmann's structure to support him. He's always been extremely talented but I'm not complete sure if Nagelsmann helped him finally figure things out, or if he just put him in a position where he couldn't over-think things and instead could just rely on that great touch & passing technique to keep things flowing quickly.
> 
> If his brain rely has caught up to his talent dare I say there would be little drop off from midfielder-Coutinho to Demirbay; though again I'm not convinced that has happened. As Demirbay's reading of the game is what stalled his development with Hamburg long before they sold him to Dusseldorf (where Hoffenheim snagged him from).
> 
> Geiger I am convinced will thrive without JN because I was sold on him long before he hit their senior team; his intelligence was blatant from the start...as it was with Kimmich. And Amiri I'm confident in if he gets another year with a quality coach to finish polishing that talent & creativity. But Demirbay was a bit of a dumb-dumb before Nagelsmann got his hands on him, so I'm curious to see how he does under a different manager.



Didn't Demirbay explode with Dusseldorf before Hoffenheim got him though?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Curtinho said:


> Didn't Demirbay explode with Dusseldorf before Hoffenheim got him though?




He exploded at a referee at least.

Düsseldorf was in the second tier when he played there though. Not quite the same.


----------



## cgf

Curtinho said:


> Didn't Demirbay explode with Dusseldorf before Hoffenheim got him though?




Eh, the move to Dusseldorf was big for his career cause it got him on the pitch & on Hoffenheim's radar. But with his talent he didn't really need to be too smart to be dynamic in BuLi2; and it wasn't like he was the league's best midfielder...and I'm not even homer-ly referring to Kreilach with that comment


----------



## mightyquack

Bon Esprit said:


> Just read on Bild.de that Strasser is out. Frontzek will replace him. Doesn't sound good. Get well.



FCK released a statement saying yesterday doctors were optimistic that after 4-6 weeks of good rest assuming final check ups go well that Strasser could resume his coaching career, so if he wanted to he could continue his career based on that which is good news - but best news is he can live a normal life if he chooses not to continue in football management.

So of course today FCK have basically sacked Strasser (despite no indication that he was permanently stepping away at this point in time) and hire Frontzeck (one of the worst managers in Germany) to be their new long term coach. Forgetting the dire on field and financial situation at FCK, I've never been more embarrassed and ashamed by FCK's actions then I am today, I can fully understand wanting to get an experienced coach in now for 6 months until we're relegated from the 2.Liga, and then you can reassess the coaching position before pre-season (be it Strasser returns fully healthy, or FCK gets a new permanent coach if Strasser is either not fit enough to return/doesn't want to return to football management). But to appoint a new long term coach today on the back of the the news from yesterday, and FCK's new sports board being in place for all of 1 day......just an embarrassment (which is par for the course for the last 10+ years of FCK I guess).

FCK been peddling the whole 'this is Strasser's wish etc', but it's just ridiculous (as if he's going to step out of line and be like no this isn't my wish) and it will just cost FCK more money when we inevitably sack Frontzeck at the end of the season. Happy days.


----------



## Bon Esprit

So Jupp Heynckes said it for the last time: I will end my career on June 30th 2018.
Hopefully Hoeneß and Rummenigge listened carefully. Take Tuchel and everything will be fine.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Dahoud and Batshuayi starting today

Nice


----------



## Bon Esprit

For those Germans who don't know the game will be on eurosport for free.

All I can say is: Go Cologne!


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> All I can say is: Go Cologne!




What the -

No


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> What the -
> 
> No



I don't care about Köln, but I want this arrogant HSV getting relagated. That's the deal.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Bon Esprit said:


> I don't care about Köln, but I want this arrogant HSV getting relagated. That's the deal.




There's no Bundesliga without HSV, you just have to accept that.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Look, the batsman scored.


----------



## Albatros

Pity that the relegation playoffs are rigged, would be great to have Holstein of all teams take the dinosaurs down.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Big Kahuna said:


> There's no Bundesliga without HSV, you just have to accept that.



I know many think so, but HSV needs the Gladbach, Köln or Dortmund treatment. Every team except Bayern or HSV got relegated. They need to go.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> Pity that the relegation playoffs are rigged, would be great to have Holstein of all teams take the dinosaurs down.



Worst case for Hamburg. Would be fun to watch.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Even though the second goal didn't count, Dahoud and Shinji are really tearing it up tonight.

Hope the former keeps playing.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Batshuayi has been pretty good.

Don't know why Dahoud doesn't start every game. Nearly every game he plays, our offense is so much more creative. And he's not bad defensively, I don't understand it. Makes no sense to me.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Boom 1:1


----------



## Bon Esprit

Boom Batsman again


----------



## Deficient Mode

I was confident that Dortmund would mess up even so open a counter chance

That's how inefficient this team is at attacking

Took a bit of luck in the end to score


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I think we've been good today. Its not easy to win in the Bundesliga. Hold this result, and I think its a job well done by the team.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Stole a win. Sloppy at the back as per usual, but a W is a W.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Side note but I still like Sammer and definitely like listening to him. Wouldn't mind if BVB brought him back.



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I think we've been good today. Its not easy to win in the Bundesliga. Hold this result, and I think its a job well done by the team.




Better than in the past few matches but I expect more from Dortmund against the bottom team in the league. Really not all that convincing in the second half, and a lot of attacking sequences ended when they shouldn't have.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Better than in the past few matches but I expect more from Dortmund against the bottom team in the league. Really not all that convincing in the second half, and a lot of attacking sequences ended when they shouldn't have.




It's not a very good team though. I think expectations have to be adjusted. A win away from home is good.

I expect changes to be made in the offseason, and hopefully the team's expectations also go up.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> It's not a very good team though. I think expectations have to be adjusted. A win away from home is good.
> 
> I expect changes to be made in the offseason, and hopefully the team's expectations also go up.




These players can perform better than they are right now.


----------



## theprofessor

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Batshuayi has been pretty good.




Yep. Not a bad debut.


----------



## Evilo

Watching Mainz/Bayern right now and Abdou Diallo is playing very well. Always thought he had the talent to make it at Monaco but never had a decent chance.


----------



## Evilo

Everytime I watch Bayern, Tolisso seems to be the boss in midfield. Great assist there.


----------



## theprofessor

Quite a strike by Ribéry. So much quality at every position and two deep. And with Jupp back at the helm. Watch out.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Last minute win for Bremen. This means even more pressure on HSV. HSV vs. Hannover should be a good one on sunday.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Bon Esprit said:


> Last minute win for Bremen. This means even more pressure on HSV. HSV vs. Hannover should be a good one on sunday.




I'm just waiting for DFB to announce a change in the Bundesliga structure, so that it will now field 20 teams and HSV will be spared.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Big Kahuna said:


> I'm just waiting for DFB to announce a change in the Bundesliga structure, so that it will now field 20 teams and HSV will be spared.



Right, they did it in the 1960s because of Schalke, btoo.


----------



## Power Man

Lol the GKs in the Werder S04 game


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Sancho has a ligament issue, they are saying several weeks. Better that they are talking about it in weeks than months. Bundesliga: Borussia Dortmund's Jadon Sancho out for 'several weeks' | Goal.com

I guess Reus was going to take someone's spot in the next week or two, but injuries are never good, and I would've preferred Sancho to get minutes than Schurrle, but the plan obviously seems to be Schurrle and Pulisic at the winger spots until Reus returns, and then presumably Schurrle to the bench. I wonder if Gomez gets into the team this weekend, if Reus isn't back yet. Would be cool to give him a debut, but they'll probably just use Guerreiro at winger, if need be.


----------



## Cassano

Would you take Bailey or Pulisic going forward?


----------



## YNWA14

Bailey over the overhyped American!


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bailey has been better this year but also over a year older so we'll have to see what Pulisic does next year. Bailey probably safer bet right now.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Lightning start for Bremen


----------



## Vipers31

On my way home from the Leverkusen - Bremen match. Pretty fun game. Feeling for Werder, they deserved a little better, but showed some immaturity at key moments. That second goal from Brandt might have gotten his release clause triggered, after all. Bailey looked ambivalent; talent is obviously there, the feeling for the situational decisions isn't yet, but that is kinda expected. Away support was really neat, too.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Johannsson scored in that match. He's a good goal scorer, but hasn't been able to stay fit the last number of seasons, and has lost his place in Bremen's team.


----------



## cgf

All Might said:


> Would you take Bailey or Pulisic going forward?




I'd take the american. Bailey is a little more advanced and his physical tools are stronger, but I think Pulisic's game is more naunced & will be more advanced when the age differential ceases to matter.


Vipers31 said:


> On my way home from the Leverkusen - Bremen match. Pretty fun game. Feeling for Werder, they deserved a little better, but showed some immaturity at key moments. That second goal from Brandt might have gotten his release clause triggered, after all. Bailey looked ambivalent; talent is obviously there, *the feeling for the situational decisions isn't yet, but that is kinda expected*. Away support was really neat, too.




While true, that's not to say that other players his age don't already have much better feel for that...like Pulisic & Brandt.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Reus starts in his return!


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

That was quintessential BVB football that half. Disorganized panic on defence, unable to find a final ball on offence.

Dahoud pls come on


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> That was quintessential BVB football that half. Disorganized panic on defence, unable to find a final ball on offence.
> 
> Dahoud pls come on




Goetze

I've seen enough of Schurrle once again.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Goetze
> 
> I've seen enough of Schurrle once again.




I'd seen enough of him before we bought him.

Atleast Sahin isn't playing.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Not a bad second half from Schurrle tbh.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

A win, but that wasn't very good.


----------



## Bon Esprit

It's a bit quiet here...

Pokal matchups will be
Bayern at Leverkusen
Frankfurt at Schalke

Just what the doctor ordered. Good draw.


----------



## Bon Esprit

What do we learn from last GD?
Bayern can win without Jupp (get well soon). HSVs troubles get worse and worse since Werder won vs. WOB and Hamburg lost to BvB.
Hannover is better than I expected. Mainz are deep in the xxxx.
Though some betting company said otherwise Köln and HSV will get relegated. BMG are not THAT good, they are mediocre.


----------



## Albatros

For Mainz it's simply time to go down back home, they're not big enough for the first league and almost everything that allowed them to punch above their weight for a while has already dissolved.


----------



## Bulbhead

Gladbach can actually do better, but when Hofmann, Drmic and Grifo get so much playing time it is no suprise that the results are at best mediocre, they still depend so much on Raffael. Hazard and Stindl can't do it alone.

Mainz is getting coached into relegation, strange decisions by Schwarz there. Around Diallo, Gbamin and Muto it should be possible to form a somewhat useful team. Also Zentner is not a first league goalie, they have more talented youngsters and they should have gone with Huth as a replacement for Adler (who didn't look so good in his few appearances either)

Hannover have made some very useful signings in Schwegler and especially Bebou, Anton was looking promising in second league already and the media has finally started to recognize his quality. When they lose Klaus in the summer they will be able to replace him with the equally promising Sarenren Bazee, but keeping Bebou and Anton will be difficult. Füllkrug's development is also amazing, he was very promising scorer at the youth level but people have already given up on him ever translating those qualities to the pro/senior level, well he finally did.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> For Mainz it's simply time to go down back home, they're not big enough for the first league and almost everything that allowed them to punch above their weight for a while has already dissolved.




Too bad many of the clubs that are "big enough" for the first league are terribly incompetent and undeserving of first league football as well


----------



## Albatros

Maybe, but having only incorporated societies coming up is not the worst year in recent history anyway, at least those have deserved another chance to be incompetent then.


----------



## Deficient Mode

March to mediocrity in Dortmund continues



Can't believe club management is watching the team play and thinks they're actually good or Stöger is actually doing a good job with the player quality he has. Or maybe Sportbild is just full of shit.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> Too bad many of the clubs that are "big enough" for the first league are terribly incompetent and undeserving of first league football as well



I would welcome Fortuna and Nürnberg. And Holstein, of course, as a replacement for nearby HSV. Can you imagine? First club from S-H in the league to replace the dinosaur?


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Deficient Mode said:


> Too bad many of the clubs that are "big enough" for the first league are terribly incompetent and undeserving of first league football as well




What does "big enough" even mean in this day and age? Is village club Hoffenheim 'big'? RB Leipzig..a club that didn't exist 10 years ago? The problem of the BuLi is that the two factors which may make a club big: (1) a large organic fan base and (2) financial resources rarely co-align with the same club. Bayern and to a lesser extent Dortmund and perhaps Schalke are the only ones. And of course, even in the case of Dortmund and Schalke the real financial means do not compare favorably to those of 'mega clubs' such as Bayern or clubs with mega-rich owners.

German football has a contradictory approach to external investment. On the one hand there is a lid placed on the ability of external entities controlling football clubs (50+1 and so forth), which keeps the majority of clubs under membership control (more or less). This discourages external investment as investors cannot be sure of how their money will be spent by officials that have their own agendas and investors have only limited means of generating value for themselves. Of course, this is something most stadium-going fans deem desirable (and I do too). We're willing to accept the 'price' of not winning Champions Leagues and so forth to have a football landscape more in touch with the fans and the communities rather than some 'NFL light' concept.

But on the other hand, the DFB/DFL has looked the other way when these principles were perverted and subverted in Hoffenheim, Leipzig, Wolfsburg (and yes before then Leverkusen) and elsewhere. This distorted domestic competition to a disturbing degree and damaged the Bundesliga. (As the Bundesliga would profit if the more genuinely popular teams were to be successful). It feels to me like the DFB and DFL are using this to soften up resistance against abandoning the protections against external club ownership. Once that happens, you have 'English conditions' with all the crap that entails. But I guess that's what the 'couch potato' fans and overseas fans want as well (or at least have no problem with).


----------



## Bon Esprit

I rather have a league that can't win the CL(ex Bayern) than a league that is full of clowns like Ismaik. That being said, of course the No50plus1 rule is a joke. As being said WOB,LEV,RB or HOF are under control of companies or single people.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I think the squad is rounding into shape recently under Stoeger, but I don't think he's a good enough manager to stay on. Bring Nagelsmann in.

In terms of personnel.

Sell: Sokratis needs to go. Schurrle and Yarmo, unless Reus or Pulisic go. In which case, you can keep one around as a fourth winger. Castro, Rode and Sahin also gotta go. Could include Piszczek in this category if a starting RB comes in, but he might be fine as a back up RB.

Buy: Need a back up GK, a third CB, a starting RB and a back up defensive midfielder who plays more physical than Weigl. If Batshuayi's loan isn't extended, also need a CF.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I think the squad is rounding into shape recently under Stoeger, but I don't think he's a good enough manager to stay on. Bring Nagelsmann in.
> 
> In terms of personnel.
> 
> Sell: Sokratis needs to go. Schurrle and Yarmo, unless Reus or Pulisic go. In which case, you can keep one around as a fourth winger. Castro, Rode and Sahin also gotta go. Could include Piszczek in this category if a starting RB comes in, but he might be fine as a back up RB.
> 
> Buy: Need a back up GK, a third CB, a starting RB and a back up defensive midfielder who plays more physical than Weigl. If Batshuayi's loan isn't extended, also need a CF.




The team has generally played very poorly even when they have won, and except for Hoffenheim (and Bayern in the Pokal) they've only played mediocre to bad teams since Stöger got here. It really says a lot about how little the people at BVB handing out contracts understand the final likelihood of regression to mediocre results if your team is performing in a mediocre fashion but still winning.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> The team has generally played very poorly even when they have won, and except for Hoffenheim (and Bayern in the Pokal) they've only played mediocre to bad teams since Stöger got here. It really says a lot about how little the people at BVB handing out contracts understand the final likelihood of regression to mediocre results if your team is performing in a mediocre fashion but still winning.




While I think most of these performances have been very underwhelming, I think Stoeger was brought in to get this team into the UCL. The football isn't great, it's actually really mediocre, but this team is getting results because it's more talented than other teams going forward and now it's finally not calamitous at the back. I'd hope that's it, he's thanked for what seems likely to be UCL qualification and a better manager is brought in.

I was talking about the personnel aspects. Toprak has been really solid and Akanji looks like he'll be able to partner him. Batshuayi should be a good Auba replacement, if the fee in the summer isn't too high. Toljan looks better. Kagawa's had a big resurgence. I'm more optimistic that the pieces of this team are shaping up than I was a few months ago. The rest of this season looks to be pretty boring, no UCL, not gonna contend for the league, out of the Cup, but if they get in a good manager and make some more improvements in the transfer market, I think next season could go well.

One thing that I think is often forgotten is that Goetze and Reus have played so few minutes on the pitch together the last two years. I forget the exact number, but how many teams have their two best players playing that few minutes on the same pitch in two seasons? That obviously effects results. Hopefully next season they'll lead the attack together.


----------



## bluesfan94

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> One thing that I think is often forgotten is that Goetze and Reus have played so few minutes on the pitch together the last two years. I forget the exact number, but how many teams have their two best players playing that few minutes on the same pitch in two seasons? That obviously effects results. Hopefully next season they'll lead the attack together.



I feel like with their injury histories, that isn’t something Dortmund can or should count on.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Been world class this season. Football IQ and passing execution has been ridiculous.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

That's what happens if you only play substantial minutes in about half of your team's games. For Goetze to move his career forward - in the sense of being perceived as an elite player - he will need to play a healthy season where his personal play also affects the outcome of his team's season in a positive and notable fashion.


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> That's what happens if you only play substantial minutes in about half of your team's games. For Goetze to move his career forward - in the sense of being perceived as an elite player - he will need to play a healthy season where *his personal play also affects the outcome of his team's season in a positive and notable fashion*.




I hope Dortmund fans don't care about public perception as he'd probably be off to a bigger club again if the perception matched the performances. He has done the bolded, but there are too many other issues with the team right now.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Buy: Need a back up GK, a third CB, a starting RB and a back up defensive midfielder who plays more physical than Weigl. If Batshuayi's loan isn't extended, also need a CF.




Good news for you: Sounds like Watzke wants a more physical defensive midfielder.

The bad? He seems to imply Weigl is the back up right now. LMAO.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I saw that and I reacted similarly. Weigl hasn't had a good season but unless you are one of the two or three richest clubs in the world, you cant afford to replace good players that easily because of one bad season Watzke doesn't pick the team, so I wouldn't worry.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Deficient Mode said:


> I hope Dortmund fans don't care about public perception as he'd probably be off to a bigger club again if the perception matched the performances. He has done the bolded, but there are too many other issues with the team right now.




For better or worse star players are always going to be associated with how the team is doing as a whole. Now for Dortmund - and every other club that ultimately sees its best players leave for a paycheck somewhere else - this is of course a quandary. You can keep under-performing and thus keep Goetze's profile relatively low or you can actually win something and then see your top players leave (again). Both options have their flaws..


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> For better or worse star players are always going to be associated with how the team is doing as a whole. Now for Dortmund - and every other club that ultimately sees its best players leave for a paycheck somewhere else - this is of course a quandary. You can keep under-performing and thus keep Goetze's profile relatively low or you can actually win something and then see your top players leave (again). Both options have their flaws..




True, but in Götze's case, people also underestimate him because he's significantly less flashy than he was 5 years ago. For the likes of Pulisic and Weigl, a down year hasn't tempered the expectation that their departure is imminent. Partly due to age as well.


----------



## cgf

I hate how much money you guys have. If you couldn't buy up so many kids I like it would be a lot less frustrating to watch Watzke drive that club back into the ground. How I wish I could just enjoy watching him set all of his hard work to save the club on fire.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Bayern, of course, won in extra-time. LOL
HSV is now in a hopeless situation,


----------



## Albatros

It's only 6 points and there are 11 rounds left, I think no one below Hertha is safe yet. If HSV can somehow win the direct duels then it's a whole different ballgame.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Bayern, of course, won in extra-time. LOL
> HSV is now in a hopeless situation,




The world's most talented footballing face pincher somehow managed to avoid a red card yet again even with video review. Incredible.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> It's only 6 points and there are 11 rounds left, I think no one below Hertha is safe yet. If HSV can somehow win the direct duels then it's a whole different ballgame.



You know that team sports has a lot to do with mentality. Many teams are falling apart at some point of the season, because they lack mentality. On top of thst some fans seem to loose patience..
I really think HSV will go this year.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Gladbach's pitch is really terrible.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Jersey Fresh said:


> Gladbach's pitch is really terrible.




Fake pitch for the fake Borussia. Makes sense.

Glad they're taking it easy on Dortmund by not playing Raffael though, even if he's still recovering from injury.


----------



## ecemleafs

gladbachs pitch looks horrific....


----------



## Cassano

ecemleafs said:


> gladbachs pitch looks horrific....



Unacceptable really, for any level.



I've never seen shit like this at a top game besides Juventus-Galtasaray a few years back, and that was partially due to snow.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

That Bobadilla challenge was dangerous. Well deserved yellow.


----------



## ecemleafs

All Might said:


> Unacceptable really, for any level.
> 
> 
> 
> I've never seen **** like this at a top game besides Juventus-Galtasaray a few years back, and that was partially due to snow.




like wtf... did they intentionally f*** up the pitch?


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

BVB playing at a local beer league clubs stadium today.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Marco!


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nice pick set by Bats on the goal there to give Reus space to shoot. I liked that.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

That's such a BVB goal to concede


----------



## John Pedro

Tie game? Looked like the ball came from Dortmund's defender.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Gladbach manager looks like a Bond villain.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Nice that BuLi is being played in this century


----------



## Deficient Mode

Glad the better Hazard at least doesn't quite have his brother's finish.



ecemleafs said:


> like wtf... did they intentionally **** up the pitch?




Weather prevented it from being relaid.



John Pedro said:


> Tie game? Looked like the ball came from Dortmund's defender.




Think it was already offside before that. The Gladbach guy it bounced off before it hit the Dortmund player was offside.


----------



## John Pedro

See, the thing about Dortmund is that they always try to walk it in


----------



## cgf

Two years ago this would've been Tuchel v Favre, instead it's archaic coach A v archaic coach B *sigh*

If they can continue to string together some of the passing movements that they started to after the goal, the cooler Borussia just might do the unexpected and get a result without Raffa.


----------



## cgf

John Pedro said:


> See, the thing about Dortmund is that they always try to walk it in


----------



## John Pedro

cgf said:


> Two years ago this would've been Tuchel v Favre, instead it's archaic coach A v archaic coach B *sigh*
> 
> If they can continue to string together some of the passing movements that they started to after the goal, the cooler Borussia just might do the unexpected and get a result without Raffa.




I feel like most of the time when I sit to watch some M'gladbach Raffael is out for some reason.


----------



## Deficient Mode

John Pedro said:


> I feel like most of the time when I sit to watch some M'gladbach Raffael is out for some reason.




Still worth watching for Lars Stindl Fussballgott.


----------



## John Pedro

Deficient Mode said:


> Still worth watching for Lars Stindl Fussballgott.




Don't forget about Kramer. Ridiculous how many chances 'we' have missed so far.


----------



## Deficient Mode

John Pedro said:


> Don't forget about Kramer. Ridiculous how many chances 'we' have missed so far.




Dortmund's defense makes no sense so I guess somehow not giving up a goal in this match would be fitting.


----------



## John Pedro

Better Hazard needs better finishing.


----------



## cgf

John Pedro said:


> I feel like most of the time when I sit to watch some M'gladbach Raffael is out for some reason.




Yeah, his age has started catching up to him in that respect. He started to get banged up last year and that has only continued this term.


----------



## Live in the Now

The bad pitch and bad tactics has given this game a very English feeling.


----------



## John Pedro

Burki pulling a professor Scrivens on BMG


----------



## Deficient Mode

John Pedro said:


> Burki pulling a professor Scrivens on BMG




Bürki isn't thaaaat bad


----------



## John Pedro

Here comes Dahoud.


----------



## Deficient Mode

John Pedro said:


> Here comes Dahoud.




For Reus. Because you can only have one ex-Gladbach star on the field at any time or your team is overpowered.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Good game despite the pitch. 

Hopefully, Oxford keeps getting minutes and pumps up that price.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Jersey Fresh said:


> Good game despite the pitch.
> 
> Hopefully, Oxford keeps getting minutes and pumps up that price.




You want to sell him rather than just get him back playing for WHU?


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Deficient Mode said:


> You want to sell him rather than just get him back playing for WHU?



Not totally, still think the team was colossally stupid for not making room for him this season. 

But he seems to want to leave and Leipzig was rumored to offer stupid money for him. Plus, he's been sort of leapt on the depth chart by Declan Rice.


----------



## John Pedro

Clearly handball by Bats and no VAR review?


----------



## Deficient Mode

John Pedro said:


> Clearly handball by Bats and no VAR review?




Dortmund have wasted all their stored up good luck the past few weeks just to get to "slightly above average"


----------



## cgf

Cuisance going at Dahoud 1 on 1...why do I feel like we'll be seeing those two running at each in a WC or EC final sooner or later?




Deficient Mode said:


> You want to sell him rather than just get him back playing for WHU?




I don't get the hype from some quarters for Oxford's season. He's a clear problem for BMG's possession play; gives it away too cheaply, can't create much, and takes to long to make bad decisions anyway...even though his mobility, strength & tackling are certainly appreciated.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> I don't get the hype from some quarters for Oxford's season. He's a clear problem for BMG's possession game; even though his mobility, strength & tackling are certainly appreciated.




I can't speak to the hype one way or another as I haven't watched Gladbach much this year but I'm not surprised it followed after he made his EPL debut at 16. I wasn't crazy about him then though.


----------



## John Pedro

Deficient Mode said:


> Dortmund have wasted all their stored up good luck the past few weeks just to get to "slightly above average"




That's the kind of match that even winning you must be mad at the team. Completly outplayed and some controversial non-calls for BMG too. Entertaining match, though. With Raffael, we would've won the Borussia's derby


----------



## Jersey Fresh

cgf said:


> I don't get the hype from some quarters for Oxford's season. He's a clear problem for BMG's possession play; gives it away too cheaply, can't create much, and takes to long to make bad decisions anyway...even though his mobility, strength & tackling are certainly appreciated.



Not sure how much you can really tell one way or the other on 4 appearances. He didn't look particularly good on his two cup showings in between BMG loans, though. 

If RBL really follows through with that €17million offer I take it and run forever.


----------



## Evilo

Came here to whine about the pitch, but all of you already did 
Fun game. Not high level from both teams, but high energy.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> I can't speak to the hype one way or another as I haven't watched Gladbach much this year but I'm not surprised it followed after he made his EPL debut at 16. I wasn't crazy about him then though.




I get that hype from english fans that don't watch BMG much; and I even get why some older gladbach fans appreciate his throwback defending style...but his limitations are just so palpable on a team where so many players can flow so smoothly with the ball. Even Ginter is starting to take less than a half turn of the moon to make decisions...nevermind Elvedi / Vestegaard / Kramer / Zakaria / Cuisance / Stindl / Hazard / Raffa; when those guys are one touching the ball up n down the pitch it's really jarring to watch Oxford stutter stepping with confused look on his face as he scans the field and waits for his brain to give him further instructions.


----------



## cgf

Jersey Fresh said:


> Not sure how much you can really tell one way or the other on 4 appearances. He didn't look particularly good on his two cup showings in between BMG loans, though.
> 
> If RBL really follows through with that €17million offer I take it and run forever.




There's a subset of Gladbach fans that have really been pumping his tires hard since he started to get some PT and it is just baffling to me.

I mean with how young he is, he certainly could become world class if Hecking is fired for Tuchel and TT teaches Oxford what to do with the ball. So I don't like how hard I'm coming down on the kid. But he really is a problem right now...one that Hecking exacerbates by constantly wanting to park the bus & counter the instant even the idea of a lead comes up.


----------



## Deficient Mode

John Pedro said:


> That's the kind of match that even winning you must be mad at the team. Completly outplayed and some controversial non-calls for BMG too. Entertaining match, though. With Raffael, we would've won the Borussia's derby




Yeah, I've been complaining about the performances for most of Stöger's tenure. The promised defensive shoring-up hasn't really come at all, just a healthy dose of luck. Their xG difference is barely above 0, even against some pretty average to bad opponents like Köln or Freiburg. They are really playing like an average team and their luck is making them look like a top 4 team. Stöger hasn't done anything to deserve a permanent spot at BVB. I feel worse about having him long-term now than I did when he came to the club, despite his unbeaten streak.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Dortmund are in 2nd place and are now winning games they should lose when they used to lose all the games they should win. In unsurprising news, hipster fans burn their still relatively new scarves.


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Dortmund are in 2nd place and are now winning games they should lose when they used to lose all the games they should win. In unsurprising news, hipster fans burn their still relatively new scarves.




Psh, real hipsters never truly adopted Dortmund in the 1st place. They may not be Bayern, but they're still a big money corporate club who were the posterchild of the pre-bust stupidity going on in the BuLi in the early 2000s


----------



## Deficient Mode

Frankfurt-Leipzig game has been eventful.



TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Dortmund are in 2nd place and are now winning games they should lose when they used to lose all the games they should win. In unsurprising news, hipster fans burn their still relatively new scarves.




It's not a criticism of their style. They simply aren't good right now. If they were winning games like Atletico with an actually good defense that's one thing. Right now their shots are going in and the opposition's aren't. Regression is a bitch tho.


----------



## Deficient Mode

smh these awful hipsters who *checks notes* "want to actually have better scoring chances than their opponents with the second most expensive team in the league"


----------



## Nalens Oga

What a stupid protest over a stupid thing to protest about. Bundesliga fans are the whiniest I've ever met. Also, if you want to protest then don't pay tickets to go to the actual game idiots.


----------



## Live in the Now

Nalens Oga said:


> What a stupid protest over a stupid thing to protest about. Bundesliga fans are the whiniest I've ever met. Also, if you want to protest then don't pay tickets to go to the actual game idiots.




No, I don't agree. Monday and Friday night football is a complete disgrace that inconveniences all supporters.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Just comes down to whether you give preference to the fans in the stadiums or the people watching on television. North Americans obviously incline way more toward the latter. I wouldn't mind if they spaced out the matches more for television by having earlier start times on Saturdays and Sundays but the fans would protest that as well.


----------



## Albatros

Monday night definitely hinders travel and that sucks, but Sunday nights aren't much different.


----------



## 555Upstairs

Albatros said:


> Monday night definitely hinders travel and that sucks, but Sunday nights aren't much different.



You need to consider this, though: The league tries to schedule Sunday evening games mainly between teams located not too far from each other to ease travel. Look at the last couple Sunday night games :
Gladbach - Dortmund
Bremen - Wolfsburg
HSV - Hannover
Hannover - Wolfsburg
That's not much travel for visiting fans.
Combine that with the 6 pm kick-off and you'll realise that Sunday night is still A LOT more convenient for visiting fans than Monday.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Monday night doesn't even benefit North American (who'd be at work/school) or Asian fans (who'd be asleep). It'd be primarily aimed at domestic and other nearby fans in neighboring countries, but I've yet to see any evidence that there is much demand for it. 

The basic logic is of course that a BuLi game on without other BuLi games on at the same time is automatically more marketable than one that's running parallel to other BuLi games even if that still isn't all that marketable (and I think it would have been very easy for someone to completely miss that Frankfurt-Leipzig game). But if that's the *only* logic that counts to the league then the fans have a point about their interests being neglected. Let's not forget that without fans in the stadium the game is only half as attractive and marketable. You can't have it both ways.


----------



## Albatros

555Upstairs said:


> You need to consider this, though: The league tries to schedule Sunday evening games mainly between teams located not too far from each other to ease travel.




Often that's the case, but not for the reason you suggest. Volatile games often take place on Sundays to lessen the security risks surrounding them. There are also maximal travel games like Bayern-Bremen played on Sunday.


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Monday night doesn't even benefit North American (who'd be at work/school) or Asian fans (who'd be asleep). It'd be primarily aimed at domestic and other nearby fans in neighboring countries, but I've yet to see any evidence that there is much demand for it.
> 
> The basic logic is of course that a BuLi game on without other BuLi games on at the same time is automatically more marketable than one that's running parallel to other BuLi games even if that still isn't all that marketable (and I think it would have been very easy for someone to completely miss that Frankfurt-Leipzig game). But if that's the *only* logic that counts to the league then the fans have a point about their interests being neglected. Let's not forget that without fans in the stadium the game is only half as attractive and marketable. You can't have it both ways.




You're badly overestimating conformity to conventional schedules. A significant percentage of Asian, Australian and North/South American fans watch the Tuesday/Wednesday matches with a 15 minute start time difference from the Monday/Friday Bundesliga matches live despite time zone inconveniences. If the DFB put entertaining/good teams in those slots, people would watch the matches that they would otherwise miss if 60% of the matches are played at 15:30 on a Saturday. Or they can continue to put Frankfurt-Hamburg style matches that no one cares about in those special time slots.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Kicker says Dortmund wanted to sign Can as their midfield battler but that the deal with Juventus is basically done. I like Can but I don't really want him in Dortmund.


----------



## YNWA14

Italy is a good place for Can.


----------



## Savant

Now who is Liverpool’s replacement for Can? That’s the question.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Savant said:


> Now who is Liverpool’s replacement for Can? That’s the question.




Does Gonzalo Castro interest Liverpool?


----------



## Savant

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Does Gonzalo Castro interest Liverpool?



Too old. Also no. But if y’all aren’t goin to use Dahoud right and keep wasting him...


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> Too old. Also no. But if y’all aren’t goin to use Dahoud right and keep wasting him...




Counteroffer: Sebastian Rode.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Deficient Mode said:


> You're badly overestimating conformity to conventional schedules. A significant percentage of Asian, Australian and North/South American fans watch the Tuesday/Wednesday matches with a 15 minute start time difference from the Monday/Friday Bundesliga matches live despite time zone inconveniences. If the DFB put entertaining/good teams in those slots, people would watch the matches that they would otherwise miss if 60% of the matches are played at 15:30 on a Saturday. Or they can continue to put Frankfurt-Hamburg style matches that no one cares about in those special time slots.




You base this 'significant percentage' on what? Ratings for regular CL games in the U.S. on FS1/FS2 aren't exactly great - not bad for the time slot but pretty bad overall compared to stuff not shown *during work hours* - and those tend to feature clubs with significant American fanbases like the big English teams, Barca and Real..not Schalke vs Augsburg. 

And they can't put 'big name' matchups all the time on Mondays because Dortmund and Bayern only play each other twice a year and that's the only matchup that would draw interest from more than the hardcore.


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> You base this 'significant percentage' on what? Ratings for regular CL games in the U.S. on FS1/FS2 aren't exactly great - not bad for the time slot but pretty bad overall compared to stuff not shown *during work hours* - and those tend to feature clubs with significant American fanbases like the big English teams, Barca and Real..not Schalke vs Augsburg.
> 
> And they can't put 'big name' matchups all the time on Mondays because Dortmund and Bayern only play each other twice a year and that's the only matchup that would draw interest from more than the hardcore.




The percentage of non-European fans who are talking about them online? TV isn't the only way to watch.

Yeah, I'm sure that's the only matchup that outsiders would watch at all just because it's live and on television.


----------



## Alklha




----------



## cgf

Mandela Egbo making his BuLi debut following Zakaria's injury


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Alklha said:


>





There's really no excuse for that. What in the world.


----------



## cgf

Yeah that's not going to win BuLi2's goal of the year


----------



## HajdukSplit

Stuttgart unbeaten in 4 under Korkut with three wins in a row, they are closer to the EL spots now than the relegation zone  Bayern held at home to Hertha not that it matters in the grand picture.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

HajdukSplit said:


> Stuttgart unbeaten in 4 under Korkut with three wins in a row, they are closer to the EL spots now than the relegation zone  Bayern held at home to Hertha not that it matters in the grand picture.




Its the Ascacibar effect.


----------



## gary69

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> There's really no excuse for that. What in the world.




Controller not connected...(like those Ovechkin moments).


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> There's really no excuse for that. What in the world.




Duisburg thought they had scored (goal was disallowed but should have counted probably), and you see half of Duisburg's team was still celebrating and then arguing with the ref. Ingolstadt then quickly played a deep ball forward. 

It's tough to defend the GK here but the truth is that this whole situation went *very quickly* from Duisburg goal to ball played into the Duisburg box, certainly faster than you'd expect.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Duisburg thought they had scored (goal was disallowed but should have counted probably), and you see half of Duisburg's team was still celebrating and then arguing with the ref. Ingolstadt then quickly played a deep ball forward.
> 
> It's tough to defend the GK here but the truth is that this whole situation went *very quickly* from Duisburg goal to ball played into the Duisburg box, certainly faster than you'd expect.




Ah, context... I learned something today.


----------



## Deficient Mode

How was that Bremen goal not offsides on review? The hell?


----------



## Deficient Mode

5 goals in 5 matches. Another classic day of Bundesliga 2018 action for you.


----------



## Bon Esprit

The loss to Bremen was the second to last nail in the coffin for HSV.
Next game will be Mainz at home. A must win, of course. After that they play at Bayern. Good luck with that.


----------



## John Pedro

Deficient Mode said:


> 5 goals in 5 matches. Another classic day of Bundesliga 2018 action for you.




make nets bigger!!11

didn't watch, but at least BMG won.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Köln and HSV now equal on points with the momentum on Köln's side imo.


----------



## Albatros

Catching Mainz should be only a matter of time the way they've been playing, HSV and Köln are two different leagues right now.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Sokratis and Castro starting again. I guess Akanji and Dahoud just aren't manly enough.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> Catching Mainz should be only a matter of time the way they've been playing, HSV and Köln are two different leagues right now.



All three play like crap ATM. but Mainz are collecting points, Köln wins from time to time and HSV keeps losing. No matter what Hamburg needs to win next week while a draw might be enough for Mainz.


----------



## Albatros

Köln is actually 5th so far this year, I guess they can be happy with that even if it's not always joga bonito. Just screwed up all autumn way worse than anyone else and are now making it up. Mainz has been steadily bad, HSV went from bad to worse it seems.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nice finish by Reus. In the right spot.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Dortmund actually played good football that half. That must be the reason HF is broken.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Dortmund back to shit second half but HF is still broken??? I'm confused.

lol at Sokratis' marking too.


----------



## Deficient Mode

2nd place with 1.7 points per match. Ahahaha what a league.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Sokratis and Castro starting again. I guess Akanji and Dahoud just aren't manly enough.




Yeah, I don't like it either.

And Sokratis at fault for the tying goal. I hope this means Akanji takes his place for the next game against Leipzig. Castro shouldn't start either. Dahoud is better.

I only saw some of the game, but we looked pretty bad, even Goetze wasn't playing well. Not a good result, but we had some points in hand, so we could afford a bad result.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Man we need Dahoud to start so bad


----------



## Deficient Mode

So Watzke said he wants to conduct contract extension negotiations with Stöger before yesterday's match? Of course he does. As we've said all along, this guy knows nothing about football - just finances - and all the people who have a clue have left the club in the past few years.


----------



## Bon Esprit

It seems Coman is out for the season. Not good for him and Bayern for their CL run Get well soon.


----------



## Evilo

Nor the NT.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Evilo said:


> Nor the NT.



Right, bt maybe he will be ready on time.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

That 13 year old kid is apparently crushing BVB U17


----------



## Deficient Mode

Schürrle has been called offsides 3 times in 16 minutes, and it has cost Dortmund a couple goals

Slowing down to adjust the timing of your runs isn't that hard, Andre.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Schurrle had like 2 good games, and since then has been bad. His mini-resurgence was mini.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Another offside goal. 

This time from Mr. Offside.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nice run and finish by Augustin

Would rather miss the CL this year and start over with someone other than Stöger than make the CL with Stöger. Results have been so fluky and they're not doing anything next year with Stöger anyway.


----------



## Cassano

Wow I didn't know RB had that many fans. They're rocking it atm.


----------



## Deficient Mode

That Dahoud pass


----------



## cgf

All Might said:


> Wow I didn't know RB had that many fans. They're rocking it atm.




They have a huge fan base in Leipzig. They’re a big part of what was winning me over...although RB not giving chances to all of those talented German kids in their academy is turning me back off of them...


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> They have a huge fan base in Leipzig. They’re a big part of what was winning me over...although RB not giving chances to all of those talented German kids in their academy is turning me back off of them...




You're just a sucker for eastern teams.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Some will complain this is offside, but I think this is where an initial call should not be overruled. How could anyone be so certain which millisecond the pass was played?


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> You're just a sucker for eastern teams.




Please, the only team I truly hate are an eastern team...


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Please, the only team I truly hate are an eastern team...




I thought the Wild played in the West


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> I thought the Wild played in the West




I like the twin cities and the people I met out there too much to really hate Minny...though I do enjoy the s*** out of the rivalry now that Parise can no longer score 3 goals in a period to win it for them 

Whereas BFC are scum and their fans are scum. Literally the worst of the worst...and that's saying something when you've got ultras like Dresden & Rostock's in the area.


----------



## Bon Esprit

So Hamburg can't win at home against a Mainz team that plays the most terrible football I have ever seen, with a 4th division goalie ( he was good actually) And on top of that Mainz was decimated for 30 minutes. Oh yeah I almost forgot the missed penalty shot. Godness.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Probably the best match under Stöger. Had the better chances in the first half and generally prevented any serious chances when they turtled in the second half. My only criticism is that they went into their shell when it was only a draw and have also done so against (on paper) far worse teams than Leipzig, but at least I got the sense that the match actually went according to plan for once. No coincidence that this was basically Dortmund's best 11 right now, with the possible substitution of Pulisic for Schürrle, though Pulisic has struggled lately as well. I liked Akanji's performance quite a bit more than the commentators on the BT sport stream I watched, too.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Probably the best match under Stöger. Had the better chances in the first half and generally prevented any serious chances when they turtled in the second half. My only criticism is that they went into their shell when it was only a draw and have also done so against (on paper) far worse teams than Leipzig, but at least I got the sense that the match actually went according to plan for once. No coincidence that this was basically Dortmund's best 11 right now, with the possible substitution of Pulisic for Schürrle, though Pulisic has struggled lately as well. I liked Akanji's performance quite a bit more than the commentators on the BT sport stream I watched, too.




Not surprising that Stöger has his best match against a counter heavy team who struggle to crack parked buses, who he can get away with drawing against. If you had played for the win with Stöger's guidance I bet Leipzig would've put 3 or 4 past you on the break.


----------



## cgf

PS remember when it looked like Keller might just get us into the 3rd playoff spot to lose to a 1st league team? Good times.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Not surprising that Stöger has his best match against a counter heavy team who struggle to crack parked buses, who he can get away with drawing against. If you had played for the win with Stöger's guidance I bet Leipzig would've put 3 or 4 past you on the break.




Yeah but compared to some of the teams to which Dortmund have given up ridiculously good and frequent chances in front of the net in recent weeks, Leipzig are like Barcelona breaking down a bus.

The penalty area defending was way less error-ridden than it has been. Not even a question of getting caught up field or on the break really.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Yeah but compared to some of the teams to which Dortmund have given up ridiculously good and frequent chances in front of the net in recent weeks, Leipzig are like Barcelona breaking down a bus.
> 
> The penalty area defending was way less error-ridden than it has been. Not even a question of getting caught up field or on the break really.




Well when you put competent players in and take incompetent ones out, that tends to happen...


----------



## Albatros

Bon Esprit said:


> So Hamburg can't win at home against a Mainz team that plays the most terrible football I have ever seen, with a 4th division goalie ( he was good actually) And on top of that Mainz was decimated for 30 minutes. Oh yeah I almost forgot the missed penalty shot. Godness.




Yup, that was not only game but set and match as well. With opponents like Bayern, Schalke, Frankfurt left to go they're not going to salvage enough points to survive. And Mainz is sinking deeper and deeper into the abyss as well, Wolfsburg remaining equally terrible is their only hope.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> Nice run and finish by Augustin
> 
> Would rather miss the CL this year and start over with someone other than Stöger than make the CL with Stöger. Results have been so fluky and they're not doing anything next year with Stöger anyway.



Though I don't think Stöger is the right man, Dortmund's problem is not the coach. Stop taking back former players! Kagawa, Gotze or Sahin ain't the players they once were. Schürrle is another case. Tuchel wanted him, but he is no CL or Top Buli material.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Though I don't think Stöger is the right man, Dortmund's problem is not the coach. Stop taking back former players! Kagawa, Gotze or Sahin ain't the players they once were. Schürrle is another case. Tuchel wanted him, but he is no CL or Top Buli material.




Kagawa and Götze are fine. Götze has been Dortmund's best player this year. The coach is part of the problem but in general it just seems like they've lost a bunch of their brain trust the past few years and it's exposing Watzke's limitations. Obviously the coach himself is a far smaller problem than the fact that the executives have watched Stöger's tenure and think the results are at all sustainable with how poorly they've played against mostly mediocre competition. Bosz had a far hotter start and had the team playing better and look how badly that fizzled out. I supported Stöger as an interim choice, but only as an interim choice. I can't believe they're actually contemplating bringing him back.


----------



## Albatros

And nothing really speaks against Şahin either, a good team player and a local kid from the own academy, makes a useful supplementary piece despite his many problems with injuries.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> And nothing really speaks against Şahin either, a good team player and a local kid from the own academy, makes a useful supplementary piece despite his many problems with injuries.




His role in getting Tuchel fired (over playing time) and the suspected pressure put on Bosz to play Sahin more (and over Weigl) speaks against him. I supported Sahin as a backup before but he comes across as entitled as hell. I could do without the drama.


----------



## Albatros

Tuchel and Bosz getting fired was good riddance though, Mickey Mouse coaches that lost the room because of their own ineptitude.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> Tuchel and Bosz getting fired was good riddance though, Mickey Mouse coaches that lost the room because of their own ineptitude.




"Tuchel is a Mickey Mouse coach" is your best take yet. And regardless of whether some players disliked him, it didn't affect the play on the field to the end like Bosz.

Not sure if Sahin had anything to do with Bosz being fired and I never said he did. Sahin was probably happy with Bosz because he was first choice and who cares about the team results anyway, eh?


----------



## Halladay

Tolisso with a great goal.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> Tuchel and Bosz getting fired was good riddance though, Mickey Mouse coaches that lost the room because of their own ineptitude.




Mickey mouse, one of the best on the planet. Same thing


----------



## Albatros

Has won one domestic cup = one of the best on the planet. Sure.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> Kagawa and Götze are fine. Götze has been Dortmund's best player this year. The coach is part of the problem but in general it just seems like they've lost a bunch of their brain trust the past few years and it's exposing Watzke's limitations. Obviously the coach himself is a far smaller problem than the fact that the executives have watched Stöger's tenure and think the results are at all sustainable with how poorly they've played against mostly mediocre competition. Bosz had a far hotter start and had the team playing better and look how badly that fizzled out. I supported Stöger as an interim choice, but only as an interim choice. I can't believe they're actually contemplating bringing him back.



Mario Götze has/had to fight his illness. But 2 goals and 2 assits is nothing special. What if Batsman leaves this summer and Reus next year? The entire roster needs a drastic overhaul. This team won't win anything. Neiter national nor internationally.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Mario Götze has/had to fight his illness. But 2 goals and 2 assits is nothing special. What if Batsman leaves this summer and Reus next year? The entire roster needs a drastic overhaul. This team won't win anything. Neiter national nor internationally.




Götze hasn't been really in positions to make the final pass or goal. He has played a bit deeper.

What the roster needs is less overhaul. Overhaul is what it has gotten every summer since they were good. They had their only good year since 2013 the one time when they didn't have significant overhaul. Just get rid of the bad pieces.

They literally won the Pokal 9 months ago...


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> Has won one domestic cup = one of the best on the planet. Sure.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Goetze has been excellent this season. The stats aren't great, but thats not the role he's playing this season.

The squad doesn't need that much of an overhaul. Bring in a keeper to compete with Buerki, bring in a starting RB, and bring in a back up CB and DM. The net spend might not even need to go up this summer, if they can get rid of players like Sokratis, Schurrle, Rode, Yarmolenko, Castro.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Surprised how well Korkut has been doing at Stuttgart.


----------



## Bure80

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Goetze has been excellent this season. The stats aren't great, but thats not the role he's playing this season.




I disagree. Götze,Castro,Weigl and Dahoud are all not great scorers. How you win games without scoring goals? For a good team you need scoring from many positions. Vidal is a good example. Dortmund has just 3 players who score quite often Reus,Kagawa and Batshuayi. Thats not enough for a top team.
2012/13 Götze had 22 Points in 28 games. and played the same position. To loose all these goals and assists makes a huge difference.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> I disagree. Götze,Castro,Weigl and Dahoud are all not great scorers. How you win games without scoring goals? For a good team you need scoring from many positions. Vidal is a good example. Dortmund has just 3 players who score quite often Reus,Kagawa and Batshuayi. Thats not enough for a top team.
> 2012/13 Götze had 22 Points in 28 games. and played the same position. To loose all these goals and assists makes a huge difference.




More top teams have their scoring concentrated in a few guys than not. In fact, most top teams are more concentrated in a few guys than Dortmund this year are. Teams like PSG and Barcelona are good examples. And Vidal is tied with Müller for second most goals on Bayern in the Bundesliga this year, so he's not exactly a fringe depth scorer for them. 

You're also forgetting Philipp, who has the most goals of any player still on the roster. And Götze really isn't playing the same position. He's playing far deeper and tasked more with directing the game than scoring. 

By the way, Castro has 21 goals+assists in 4430 Bundesliga minutes (1 point every 211 minutes) for BVB compared to Vidal's 26 goals+assists in 5193 minutes (1 point every 200 minutes) for Bayern. If Castro had one more goal or assist he'd basically be tied in per minute points with Vidal. That's not at all indicative of the difference between those two players or between the two clubs for which they play. 

Dortmund should be getting more scoring from their midfield once Dahoud fully breaks into the team. The guy is elite around the penalty area. 26 goals+assists in 5093 Bundesliga minutes; ahead of Vidal's pace. It's not an area of the team that concerns me.


----------



## Bure80

Deficient Mode said:


> More top teams have their scoring concentrated in a few guys than not. In fact, most top teams are more concentrated in a few guys than Dortmund this year are. Teams like PSG and Barcelona are good examples. And Vidal is tied with Müller for second most goals on Bayern in the Bundesliga this year, so he's not exactly a fringe depth scorer for them.
> 
> You're also forgetting Philipp, who has the most goals of any player still on the roster. And Götze really isn't playing the same position. He's playing far deeper and tasked more with directing the game than scoring.
> 
> By the way, Castro has 21 goals+assists in 4430 Bundesliga minutes (1 point every 211 minutes) for BVB compared to Vidal's 26 goals+assists in 5193 minutes (1 point every 200 minutes) for Bayern. If Castro had one more goal or assist he'd basically be tied in per minute points with Vidal. That's not at all indicative of the difference between those two players or between the two clubs for which they play.
> 
> Dortmund should be getting more scoring from their midfield once Dahoud fully breaks into the team. The guy is elite around the penalty area. 26 goals+assists in 5093 Bundesliga minutes; ahead of Vidal's pace. It's not an area of the team that concerns me.




The ZOM player shoudnt be a depth scorer. Altleast not on a top team.
Götze plays the exactly the same Position as in the past. He plays in front of Weigl (6) and Castro/Dahoud (8). He just has not the 1 on 1 skill anymore to come into the box, so he has less scoring chancs.

Castro has only 2 assists this year. You cant buy anything for the past. He benefited much from Hummels and Gündogan like many other Players too (Weigl).


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> The ZOM player shoudnt be a depth scorer. Altleast not on a top team.
> Götze plays the exactly the same Position as in the past. He plays in front of Weigl (6) and Castro/Dahoud (8). He just has not the 1 on 1 skill anymore to come into the box, so he has less scoring chancs.
> 
> Castro has only 2 assists this year. You cant buy anything for the past. He benefited much from Hummels and Gündogan like many other Players too (Weigl).




He really isn't a ZOM. You're assuming they're playing the same kind of 4-2-3-1 but they really haven't. More of a 3 man central midfield. He's playing far deeper than he did under Klopp.


----------



## cgf

Mario is finally getting to become the German Iniesta that I always said he should be, and he's looking beautiful doing it.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

He's more of a midfielder than an attacking player. I get the point that he's nominally still the #10 and scores less because he's not as good 1v1 anymore, but I don't think we should judge him on a role he doesn't play. Was Aubameyang a bad striker because he was pretty awful at every aspect of being a CF other than playing off the shoulder of the defenders and finishing chances after speeding by defenders? Goetze plays more like Iniesta now, I think thats a good comparison. The goals and assists are less a part of his game now. If you look at the positions he takes up on the field, he's not playing right off the center forward, like a nominal #10 would play. Its more of a double #8 look with Dahoud providing the more box to box play and Goetze concentrated in a mostly east to west alignment halfway between Weigl and Batshuayi.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

You can blame a lot on Watzke - including his inability to keep quiet and to not discuss things that aren't any of his business - but it isn't his job to recruit players or even the coach. Michael Zorc is technically the person who holds that job, and he seems to be entirely overlooked in many of these diatribes.

It might be tempting to view Watzke as an Uli Hoeness type character because he sure talks a good game, but that doesn't mean he has Hoeness-like control over football operations. Hoeness was viewed as the main authority at Bayern even as chairman because he dominated football operations for so long while holding the "Manager" job. No-one believed he'd be able to take a step back and let others do the job he did so well for so long (rightfully so). But Watzke isn't a football guy and while he has a big ego, I highly doubt he's the one who comes up with names of players to sign or decide what youth players to give contracts etc.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I think the main problem here is that they fired one of the best coaches in the world because of Watzke's ego, so I would say thats a Watzke problem more than anything. Bosz and Stoeger are nowhere near as good as Tuchel. I think if they bring in a top manager, we'll see the club potentially compete with Bayern in the league, compete for the Cup and get to the latter rounds of the UCL.


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> You can blame a lot on Watzke - including his inability to keep quiet and to not discuss things that aren't any of his business - but it isn't his job to recruit players or even the coach. Michael Zorc is technically the person who holds that job, and he seems to be entirely overlooked in many of these diatribes.
> 
> It might be tempting to view Watzke as an Uli Hoeness type character because he sure talks a good game, but that doesn't mean he has Hoeness-like control over football operations. Hoeness was viewed as the main authority at Bayern even as chairman because he dominated football operations for so long while holding the "Manager" job. No-one believed he'd be able to take a step back and let others do the job he did so well for so long (rightfully so). But Watzke isn't a football guy and while he has a big ego, I highly doubt he's the one who comes up with names of players to sign or decide what youth players to give contracts etc.




Most of us aren't complaining about the player recruitment - which has generally been excellent - but about the managerial recruitment. Watzke is talking in the media about giving Stöger an extension. While I doubt it's his sole executive decision, he does play a sizeable part in it.


----------



## Bure80

cgf said:


> Mario is finally getting to become the German Iniesta that I always said he should be, and he's looking beautiful doing it.




Thats only reverie. He still looks elegant on the field. But he has by far not the strategic skills of Iniesta.
The most Iniesta like BVB Player was Sahin at his prime.


----------



## cgf

Bure80 said:


> Thats only reverie. He still looks elegant on the field. But he has by far not the strategic skills of Iniesta.




eh, he's been incredibly wily when I've watch him this season


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> You can blame a lot on Watzke - including his inability to keep quiet and to not discuss things that aren't any of his business - but it isn't his job to recruit players or even the coach. Michael Zorc is technically the person who holds that job, and he seems to be entirely overlooked in many of these diatribes.
> 
> It might be tempting to view Watzke as an Uli Hoeness type character because he sure talks a good game, but that doesn't mean he has Hoeness-like control over football operations. Hoeness was viewed as the main authority at Bayern even as chairman because he dominated football operations for so long while holding the "Manager" job. No-one believed he'd be able to take a step back and let others do the job he did so well for so long (rightfully so). But Watzke isn't a football guy and while he has a big ego, I highly doubt he's the one who comes up with names of players to sign or decide what youth players to give contracts etc.




Zorc is the tactician of the transfer front, but he's not the one who fired Tuchel or the strategist behind Dortmund's destruction. Zorc is merely a lieutenant to the general currently waging war on BVB.


----------



## Bure80

cgf said:


> eh, he's been incredibly wily when I've watch him this season




You are easy to please Incredibly he was for me 5 years ago. You compare him to Iniesta. In my opinion he is by far not at Gündogans Level, who played a similar position.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> Thats only reverie. He still looks elegant on the field. But he has by far not the strategic skills of Iniesta.
> The most Iniesta like BVB Player was Sahin at his prime.





Bure80 said:


> You are easy to please Incredibly he was for me 5 years ago. You compare him to Iniesta. In my opinion he is by far not at Gündogans Level, who played a similar position.




Sahin plays nothing like Iniesta and never did. Götze has an excellent strategic brain.


----------



## cgf

Bure80 said:


> You are easy to please Incredibly he was for me 5 years ago. You compare him to Iniesta. In my opinion he is by far not at Gündogans Level, who played a similar position.




He’s not a tank like Ilkay and can’t motor as well as him, but he’s become as crafty


----------



## Bure80

He is not the passing machine and has not Ilkays strategic brain too.
In my opinion Steffen Freund said the right thing. From Dortmunds front three midfield players (Schürrle/Götze/Reus), only Reus is NT material.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> He is not the passing machine and has not Ilkays strategic brain too.
> In my opinion Steffen Freund said the right thing. From Dortmunds front three midfield players (Schürrle/Götze/Reus), only Reus is NT material.




By all means, omit Mario from the NT. I don't want him getting tired and risking injury playing Mickey Mouse games, anyway.

Schürrle hasn't even played starter minutes for Dortmund, so I don't know why we'd even discuss the NT for him.


----------



## cgf

I miss der Ailton, wonder if he's coaching anywhere?


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

We really need a solid LB. Schmelle isn't cutting it anymore.

Also I still think the Schurrle purchase was dumb. Though I do like his recent form.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> We really need a solid LB. Schmelle isn't cutting it anymore.
> 
> Also I still think the Schurrle purchase was dumb. Though I do like his recent form.




I think you might be a few games behind on his form. 

He sucks and if Sancho is fit to play tomorrow, he'd be out of the 18, in my opinion.


----------



## Bure80

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> We really need a solid LB. Schmelle isn't cutting it anymore.
> 
> Also I still think the Schurrle purchase was dumb. Though I do like his recent form.




Guerreiro would be more as solid if he wouldnt be always injured. Anyway he is more important in central midfield now.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Bure80 said:


> Guerreiro would be more as solid if he wouldnt be always injured. Anyway he is more important in central midfield now.




Yeah I forgot about him. Maybe we should start pre-buying players for injury replacements.


----------



## Bon Esprit

HSV fired Heribert Bruchhagen and Jens Todt.
Strange timing unless the try to avoid relegation by signing... Felix Magath.


----------



## Albatros

I think their goal now is to ensure an immediate promotion next season, it looks like a bit more than just a desperation move.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Mood:


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Hertha's GK coach came out with harsh criticism of Jonathan Klinsmann. Basically said his habits are too much like an American, and he doesn't have the correct presence in training.

The manager and sporting director have since come out and basically condemned the comments. I don't think Jonathan Klinsmann is good, so I'm not trying to defend his poor performances in training, might just be because he's not up to the level instead of his Americanness, but the comments came off terribly, and were completely unnecessary.


----------



## Savant

The Soccer Team That Refuses to Play Moneyball

Interesting article on recent Schalke


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> The Soccer Team That Refuses to Play Moneyball
> 
> Interesting article on recent Schalke




Article never really addressed its lede: "do they know something we don't?" It didn't offer a defense of Schalke. If anything it says they're even stupider to let these star players walk than most people would assume.


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> Article never really addressed its lede: "do they know something we don't?" It didn't offer a defense of Schalke. If anything it says they're even stupider to let these star players walk than most people would assume.



I noticed that as well. That’s why it interested me.

Jury is definitely out. They are banking on Tedesco but acknowledges they can’t keep him either


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Alrighty then.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Reus extended his contract through 2023. Nice.



Savant said:


> I noticed that as well. That’s why it interested me.
> 
> Jury is definitely out. They are banking on Tedesco but acknowledges they can’t keep him either




Right now it's far easier to replace players than to replace a good, adaptive coach at a club like that. And you need one of the latter if you're going to lose your best performing player every summer - something that doesn't happen nearly as much at bigger clubs - and need to recreate organization and understanding between players.


----------



## cgf

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Hertha's GK coach came out with harsh criticism of Jonathan Klinsmann. Basically said his habits are too much like an American, and he doesn't have the correct presence in training.
> 
> The manager and sporting director have since come out and basically condemned the comments. I don't think Jonathan Klinsmann is good, so I'm not trying to defend his poor performances in training, might just be because he's not up to the level instead of his Americanness, but the comments came off terribly, and were completely unnecessary.




tbf, have you ever worked with an american? They are the worst.


----------



## Bure80

Good for Dortmund that the last worldclass player stays.
For the weekend i would prefer:

---------------------Bürki

Pisczek-----Akanji------Toprak---------Schmelzer

-------------------Weigl--------Guerreiro

---------Pulisic------------Reus------------Sancho

---------------------------Batshuayi


----------



## cgf

Keep Castro at RB if Stoger can force him to play there. And why use Raphael in midfield when Mo is finally settling in; especially with Schmelzer's form?


----------



## Deficient Mode

"last worldclass player"


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> "last worldclass player"




Yeah that was silly. Dahoud & Weigl may stay this summer, but they'll leave BVB eventually to


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Yeah that was silly. Dahoud & Weigl may stay this summer, but they'll leave BVB eventually to




I don't understand why Reus is the one criticism-proof player for so many observers. Questionable performances in big matches. Secondary piece of the team the last time they were good. Constantly injured. But he's the only/last world class player left.


----------



## Bure80

Did you see the game Thursday? Dahoud was really weak. Some parts of the game i listen to BVB Netradio. Even Dickel criticized him harsh.
I like Guerreiro very much. He is a very smart player with good technique and a very good shot.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> Did you see the game Thursday? Dahoud was really weak. Some parts of the game i listen to BVB Netradio. Even Dickel criticized him harsh.
> I like Guerreiro very much. He is a very smart player with good technique and a very good shot.




How did you find Reus in that game then?


----------



## Bure80

He was weak too. But Reus was long time injured. Its normal that he needs some time to recover. He is the last one to criticize. He saved the team with his goals the last games.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> I don't understand why Reus is the one criticism-proof player for so many observers. Questionable performances in big matches. Secondary piece of the team the last time they were good. Constantly injured. But he's the only/last world class player left.




It's cause he came from the cooler-Borussia and hit the ground running when moving to corporate-Borussia. Plus he reminds people of the good ol days, before Watzke went all Watzke.


Bure80 said:


> He was weak too. But Reus was long time injured. Its normal that he needs some time to recover. *He is the last one to criticize.* He saved the team with his goals the last games.




That's certainly convenient for Marco.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> He was weak too. But Reus was long time injured. Its normal that he needs some time to recover. He is the last one to criticize. He saved the team with his goals the last games.




And Dahoud hasn't been playing; he needs time to get up to speed. Easy to make the same excuse. 

Problem isn't with the players though really. It's so easy to disrupt this Dortmund team. No surprise at all that a well-coached Salzburg team did so.


----------



## cgf

Yeah, stoger is just incompetent with possession and can't organize a defense that's further than 10 yards away from their own keeper.

Koln with Modeste to score on every set piece really was the perfect situation for him.


----------



## Bure80

The team played not good soccer under a really good coach like Tuchel too. It has to do alot with the team. 
For example there is not really a leader on that team


----------



## cgf

Bure80 said:


> The team played not good soccer under a really good coach like Tuchel too. It has to do alot with the team.
> For example there is not really a leader on that team




What are you talking about? The team played the best football they've played this century under Tuchel and had their best league campaign ever under his guidance.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> The team played not good soccer under a really good coach like Tuchel too. It has to do alot with the team.
> For example there is not really a leader on that team




They had at worst stretches of 3-4 bad matches under Tuchel. They've played poorly pretty much all of Stöger's tenure.

Yes, people always criticize the lack of leadership. They did the same about Hummels when Dortmund were terrible in Klopp's last year. Then they turned around and played a better season start-to-finish than they ever did under Klopp the next year.


----------



## Albatros

Hard to see how finishing 2nd is a _better_ season start-to-finish than winning the double. More constant maybe.


----------



## Bure80

cgf said:


> What are you talking about? The team played the best football they've played this century under Tuchel and had their best league campaign ever under his guidance.




They played very good football in the first year under Tuchel. After the loss of Gündogan and Hummels the football was by far weaker.
Till now they found no replacements for those two players. Ofcourse this isnt easy too.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> Hard to see how finishing 2nd is a _better_ season start-to-finish than winning the double. More constant maybe.




Well they got trounced out of European play very unceremoniously that year. Second half of the season was amazing, and they barely conceded any goals then, but they also had no European matches to compete in. I'd take the double over the first Tuchel year as results go any time, but they played better, more dominant football in 2015/16. 



Bure80 said:


> They played very good football in the first year under Tuchel. After the loss of Gündogan and Hummels the football was by far weaker.
> Till now they found no replacements for those two players. Ofcourse this isnt easy too.




It was weaker but still far far better than what they've played this year.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> Hard to see how finishing 2nd is a _better_ season start-to-finish than winning the double. More constant maybe.




Playing better football =/= having better results. The strongest BVB team this century was Tuchel’s, even if their competition was a lot stronger than that faced by the Klopp teams who got better results


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bure80 said:


> They played very good football in the first year under Tuchel. After the loss of Gündogan and Hummels the football was by far weaker.
> Till now they found no replacements for those two players. Ofcourse this isnt easy too.




Was the football weaker or were the players not as good? They didn't properly replace those players that season. I think the football was actually pretty decent aside from some minor defensive problems, but the main problems in the big matches were the lack of quality center-backs and a lack of a quality player to pair with Weigl. I think they've brought those players in the last season with Toprak, Akanji and Dahoud. But they've gotten rid of a world class coach, and replaced him with Bosz and Stoeger who aren't BVB quality.


----------



## YNWA14

cgf said:


> Playing better football =/= having better results. The strongest BVB team this century was Tuchel’s, even if their competition was a lot stronger than that faced by the Klopp teams who got better results



I'm not so sure.

The Klopp team that made the CL semis would not have been bounced by Liverpool in the EL, at that stage in Liverpool's team development, IMO.


----------



## Bure80

Its a mixture of both, The coaches are not as good as Tuchel and the players they bought for Hummels and Gündogan have a lack of quality too.
I rank Weigl not that high too. He is not a bad player but he profited from Hummels and Gündogan.
@YNWA14 In my opinion Dortmund was the better team against Liverpool. In the first half @ Anfield Road it was like men against boys. In the 2nd half Dormund collapsed. Still dont know why maybe less experience.


----------



## cgf

YNWA14 said:


> I'm not so sure.
> 
> The Klopp team that made the CL semis would not have been bounced by Liverpool in the EL, at that stage in Liverpool's team development, IMO.




That Klopp team that made the final was a miracle stoppage time goal away from being knocked out by Malaga in a competition that they put a lot more emphasis on than did Tuchel’s team the EL 

Plus they were the two time defending champions of Germany and were brimming with confidence. When Tuchel had taken over not only had Bayern blown past them, but they also had that disastrous last season under Klopp in the back of their minds. So that “here it goes again” mentality when things turned against them wasn’t there when Klopp had his successes, that only became a thing under Klopp’s latter years.


----------



## cgf

Bure80 said:


> Its a mixture of both, The coaches are not as good as Tuchel and the players they bought for Hummels and Gündogan have a lack of quality too.
> I rank Weigl not that high too. He is not a bad player but he profited from Hummels and Gündogan.




Weigl is world class, even with 1 down season. There’s a reason Pep has tried to buy him to be his new biscuits for 3 consecutive windows.


----------



## Bure80

If Weigl, Götze and Dahoud are all that good why Dortmund plays such bad football? Just because of the coach? No way.


----------



## cgf

Bure80 said:


> If Weigl, Götze and Dahoud are all that good why Dortmund plays such bad football? Just because of the coach? No way.




You seem to massively under-estimated the responsibility coaches have in organizing modern possession play


----------



## Live in the Now

Class from Caligiuri there. Love seeing a dribble and shot like that.


----------



## cgf

He and Ozcipka have certainly responded to Tedesco in a big way. Other than Meyer and Burgstaller I don’t think anyone at Schalke has benefitted more from the new coach than those two wingbacks.

If they can hold onto Tedesco & Meyer, I can see them being even better next year; even with LeGo


----------



## Deficient Mode

YNWA14 said:


> I'm not so sure.
> 
> The Klopp team that made the CL semis would not have been bounced by Liverpool in the EL, at that stage in Liverpool's team development, IMO.




*CL final

Klopp's teams had higher highs than Tuchel's. Also, how a team would perform against Klopp's Liverpool is a pretty limited criterion for judging quality of two teams. Arsenal has been outscored acrosstwo matches by Liverpool this year, but West Brom hasn't. Doesn't mean Arsenal is worse than West Brom.


----------



## Bure80

cgf said:


> You seem to massively under-estimated the responsibility coaches have in organizing modern possession play




Sure a good coach becomes important. But do you think Stöger forbids Götze things like this?


Some players are massive overrated here.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Oh boy, HSV. 3 after 20 minutes.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> Sure a good coach becomes important. But do you think Stöger forbids Götze things like this?
> 
> Some players are massive overrated here.




Not a question of forbidding.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Eh the eye test was pretty obvious, Dortmund under Klopp at its best was pretty clearly better than under Tuchel. It was Klopp who made Dortmund everyone's 2nd team. People who masturbate over possession statistics, of course, have a different view.

Dortmund were, of course, better under Tuchel than they have been under his successors and firing him was a pretty brutal mistake.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Bon Esprit said:


> Oh boy, HSV. 3 after 20 minutes.



So its 4-0 now.One more and a tie at Bremen and HSV are last.


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Eh the eye test was pretty obvious, Dortmund under Klopp at its best was pretty clearly better than under Tuchel. It was Klopp who made Dortmund everyone's 2nd team. People who *********e over possession statistics, of course, have a different view.
> 
> Dortmund were, of course, better under Tuchel than they have been under his successors and firing him was a pretty brutal mistake.




What? The eye test easily favored Tuchel's BVB as well. They played much more attractive football than did Klopp's BVB who were completely clueless whenever faced with a bus.


----------



## Bure80

They played very attrative football under both coaches. Kagawa and Götze in thir prime was beautiful to watch.
@cgf Do you remember the Cup Final against Bayern Munich?


----------



## cgf

Zakaria > Bailey


----------



## cgf

Bure80 said:


> They played very attrative football under both coaches. Kagawa and Götze in thir prime was beautiful to watch.
> @cgf Do you remember the Cup Final against Bayern Munich?




The Cup f...inal you say? What could that possibly be?

...of course I rememberit, I also remember BVB's saladbowl seasons...unlike most international BVB fans...


----------



## cgf

Hey Bailey almost did something good! Who knew that all he need was 6-7 tries before he was able to actually make a good decision!

At least he can fly and has skill, unlike Bobadilla who's an idiot and lacks talent; but still, thank you vizekusen for starting Bailey instead of Brandt.

Tah is ridiculously talented, he's the only one in that Leverkusen back 6 who's any good other than Wendell; who's good but an idiot.

EDIT:
lol that's what I get, much better from the Jamaican these last few minutes


----------



## Bure80

Watch BVB since the time of Chapuisat and Co.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> EDIT:
> lol that's what I get, much better from the Jamaican these last few minutes




Nice jinx


----------



## cgf

This has been such a Hecking game. Start on the front foot, playing well before dropping off and starting to sit deep, inviting the other team to attack in waves until they invariably score.

Thankfully today the opposition scored early enough where Hecking might just be forced to actually attack...although 0-1 is probably a good result in his mind. These conservative coaches are such cowards, and they never realize that their cowardice is always punished.

Here's to hoping Cuisance just goes out there for Bobadilla in the second half of his own volition, since Hecking is too much of a p***y to do anything about it even if he does.

Stindl - Hazard
Cuisance - Kramer - Grifo
Zakaria​


----------



## cgf

F***in Drmic. This team has looked a lot better since bringing Cuisance on and going to the back three...shocking I know...but got damn Drmic wasting that chance


----------



## cgf

That vision from Brandt < 3


----------



## cgf

Well hopefully Hecking's derby record is enough to get him fired, but they looked really good in the back three today. Hofmann on the right did a really good job as well. Would be totally down to see them roll into the next match with

Stindl - Hazard
Cuisance
Grifo? - Zakaria - Kramer - Hofmann
Elvedi - Vestegaard - Ginter

With cuisance moving to the left if Raffael is ever back​


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

cgf said:


> What? The eye test easily favored Tuchel's BVB as well. They played much more attractive football than did Klopp's BVB who were completely clueless whenever faced with a bus.




Eh I think me and you have very different ideas of what 'attractive football is..


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

I just read Mertesacker's comments about him not being able to handle the pressure of football, having anxiety, feeling like throwing up before games, being glad to miss games because of the respite it offered and, finally, feeling a sense of 
relief after losing to Italy at WC 2006. 

While this doesn't surprise me a huge amount really because I always had him down as kind of a soft guy, the extent of it is pretty eyebrow raising. I mean it's perhaps telling that Germany won the World Cup once Mertesacker was replaced as a starter and perhaps it says a few things about Arsenal's mentality, too - given that he was supposed to be one of their leaders. Now I am not saying that you need a Mark Messier of football - i.e. what Ballack considered himself - but in all pursuits in life you probably need...



In order to max out your potential. Now, I don't think he's a bad guy but he probably was too soft to be a stalwart for a team that's trying to win big things. Beyond that, while he is nothing but honest here, there obviously is the fact that he was paid millions upon millions in this job and won't have material worries for the rest of his life..and a bit of appreciation and gratitude for that would be a good look.


----------



## cgf

It takes balls to come out to all of europe and admit how beaten down by the game he was. I could never be that open about my own failings/shortcomings 

Hearing Metzelder & Lothar discuss it was pretty funny though. Lothar is definitely not a thinking man.


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> I just read Mertesacker's comments about him not being able to handle the pressure of football, having anxiety, feeling like throwing up before games, being glad to miss games because of the respite it offered and, finally, feeling a sense of
> relief after losing to Italy at WC 2006.
> 
> While this doesn't surprise me a huge amount really because I always had him down as kind of a soft guy, the extent of it is pretty eyebrow raising. I mean it's perhaps telling that Germany won the World Cup once Mertesacker was replaced as a starter and perhaps it says a few things about Arsenal's mentality, too - given that he was supposed to be one of their leaders. Now I am not saying that you need a Mark Messier of football - i.e. what Ballack considered himself - but in all pursuits in life you probably need...
> 
> 
> In order to max out your potential. Now, I don't think he's a bad guy but he probably was too soft to be a stalwart for a team that's trying to win big things. Beyond that, while he is nothing but honest here, there obviously is the fact that he was paid millions upon millions in this job and won't have material worries for the rest of his life..and a bit of appreciation and gratitude for that would be a good look.




Really bad post. Having anxiety doesn't make you soft. There was a far more obvious and far more immediate reason why Germany got better without him too... what could it be? And who tf cares about "appreciation and gratitude"?


----------



## Bon Esprit

Another low by HSV supporters:

"Your time is up. We'll get you all" banner surrounded by crosses.

What a disgusting crap.

Grabkreuze am HSV-Stadion: Fans drohen: Eure Zeit ist abgelaufen


----------



## Cassano




----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

All Might said:


>





I know nothing about this guy

is this a good decision?


----------



## Deficient Mode

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> I know nothing about this guy
> 
> is this a good decision?




It would not be a good decision but the source is also total rubbish


----------



## Bon Esprit

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> I know nothing about this guy
> 
> is this a good decision?



David Wagner (soccer) - Wikipedia


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> It would not be a good decision but the source is also total rubbish




I don*t believe it, too. But stranger things happened.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Deficient Mode said:


> Really bad post. Having anxiety doesn't make you soft. There was a far more obvious and far more immediate reason why Germany got better without him too... what could it be? And who tf cares about "appreciation and gratitude"?




Your response does not surprise me in the slightest. I fully expected you to sympathize with Per. He's a 11 Freunde type player after all.

Of course, there were other good reasons to not play him..like the fact he was about as agile and speedy as a container ship at that point. But it's pretty obvious - was even before his comments - that this guy isn't a leader. He's too much of an introvert, too sensitive and too vulnerable to be that. 

I'm sure as a team it's not exactly helpful going into a big match if your senior towering central defender is bricking it, that's not the sort of stabilizing presence you'd want in the changing room. (And yes the mentality of the team is a factor that can decide games).

In a career of almost 400 club games and over 100 caps, the guy won a couple domestic Cup competitions and the World Cup as a sub. That's his career honors after a decade of playing at Bremen - in the Frings/Diego/Klose era where they were a top team in Germany - and Arsenal. Both teams noted for not exactly being hard-nosed for that matter.

With regard to gratitude and appreciation..he's whining about the 'dark side' of a business and 'system' that's rewarded him very richly. Dude apparently didn't have much love for life as a pro, but obviously stuck around long enough to be a very rich man as a result. Of course, rich people have problems, too, and he subjectively may very much feel like the whole football gig was a burden, but it lacks perspective. He could have quit as a young pro and try to become a Sozialkunde teacher instead. He didn't and that damages his case a bit in terms of 'exposing' the system rather than his perhaps unsuitable personality.


----------



## Bon Esprit

I always liked Mertes. He once played for Hannover 96, grew up 20km from my hometown and is a nice guy.
But this interview makes me wonder why he became a pro in the first place. Nobody forced him to play on the NT, too. 
Others, like Sebastian Deisler, punished by neverending injuries and high expectations by the public left the game
for good and cured his depression.
I still respect Per, but I don't like his interview.


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Your response does not surprise me in the slightest. I fully expected you to sympathize with Per. He's a 11 Freunde type player after all.
> 
> Of course, there were other good reasons to not play him..like the fact he was about as agile and speedy as a container ship at that point. But it's pretty obvious - was even before his comments - that this guy isn't a leader. He's too much of an introvert, too sensitive and too vulnerable to be that.
> 
> I'm sure as a team it's not exactly helpful going into a big match if your senior towering central defender is bricking it, that's not the sort of stabilizing presence you'd want in the changing room. (And yes the mentality of the team is a factor that can decide games).
> 
> In a career of almost 400 club games and over 100 caps, the guy won a couple domestic Cup competitions and the World Cup as a sub. That's his career honors after a decade of playing at Bremen - in the Frings/Diego/Klose era where they were a top team in Germany - and Arsenal. Both teams noted for not exactly being hard-nosed for that matter.
> 
> With regard to gratitude and appreciation..he's whining about the 'dark side' of a business and 'system' that's rewarded him very richly. Dude apparently didn't have much love for life as a pro, but obviously stuck around long enough to be a very rich man as a result. Of course, rich people have problems, too, and he subjectively may very much feel like the whole football gig was a burden, but it lacks perspective. He could have quit as a young pro and try to become a Sozialkunde teacher instead. He didn't and that damages his case a bit in terms of 'exposing' the system rather than his perhaps unsuitable personality.




I never liked Mertesacker as a player. Just happens that most people under the age of 60 realize that football isn't actually about having bigger Eier than the opposition. Not everyone will be a leader as a player. Introverts can bond with their teammates too. I particularly like how you chided me for generalizing that footballers aren't overly intelligent - that you can't even recognize the intelligence of someone you're interviewing for a job - but then you turn around and draw out your carefully detailed psychological profile of Mertesacker, and exactly how footballers are and have to be in the locker room, and there's no room for introverts.

Yes, well if we disqualified everyone who grew rich out of a system from criticizing it, we wouldn't have many politicians left, would we? Or sports coaches for that matter. As with anyone who cries about affluent people advocating for those less affluent, the hypocrisy doesn't lie with the advocate, it lies with the people like you who admire a stupidly wealthy politician like Trump who is permanently critical of the political system off of which he and his father grew rich. You don't actually care about the criticisms of affluent people - as long as they line up with your own. And you don't mind wealthy former footballers criticizing the system - as long as it doesn't tarnish your sacred image of football as the exclusive domain of ballsy, strong-willed men.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Deficient Mode said:


> I never liked Mertesacker as a player. Just happens that most people under the age of 60 realize that football isn't actually about having bigger Eier than the opposition. Not everyone will be a leader as a player. Introverts can bond with their teammates too. I particularly like how you chided me for generalizing that footballers aren't overly intelligent - that you can't even recognize the intelligence of someone you're interviewing for a job - but then you turn around and draw out your carefully detailed psychological profile of Mertesacker, and exactly how footballers are and have to be in the locker room, and there's no room for introverts.
> 
> Yes, well if we disqualified everyone who grew rich out of a system from criticizing it, we wouldn't have many politicians left, would we? Or sports coaches for that matter. As with anyone who cries about affluent people advocating for those less affluent, the hypocrisy doesn't lie with the advocate, it lies with the people like you who admire a stupidly wealthy politician like Trump who is permanently critical of the political system off of which he and his father grew rich. You don't actually care about the criticisms of affluent people - as long as they line up with your own. And you don't mind wealthy former footballers criticizing the system - as long as it doesn't tarnish your sacred image of football as the exclusive domain of ballsy, strong-willed men.




There is room for introverts and some players are so talented that they can have any character they want and they'll be useful players, like a Suarez for example (though he isn't an introvert, but a knobhead). But Mertesacker was expected to provide leadership. He's captaining Arsenal, he was a senior player on the national team. He's clearly an articulate fellow as well. I don't have to perform a psychological analysis of him to get the answers here because he gives them himself. Do you think Arsenal fans would be happy - given that their team is known for its fragility - that their captain is anxiety-ridden and struggling with the pressure before their matches? 

A man with the mental stability required to be a leader on a team would relish the chance to win the World Cup at home and not buckle under the weight of that task. What kind of player is *relieved* when they lose one of the biggest matches of their career i.e. the WC semifinal 2006? If your response to losing a heartbreaker is "thank god this is over", then you probably didn't go into the match in the right frame of mind either.

Also, what the hell does Trump have to do with this? Trump got rich on real estate. The equivalent would be him complaining about how he is troubled because of the psychological pressures in the real estate business, and how difficult to handle the real estate game is for him, how things need to be made less result-focused and pressurized to make it easier for burgeoning real estate tycoons. But Trump constantly brags about how well he did in real estate instead, and how it taught him the required lessons to lead the country. Trump and Mertesacker have completely different approaches to their business. Trump relishes the game that advanced him, Mertesacker loathed it and yet stuck with it just for the money.


----------



## cgf

Alright Max, you know how sometimes you & me have these mind-meld moments where you get this great offseason plan and see what you can do to realize it? Well this is one of those moments:

*Out:*
Hecking, Trainer
Drmic, FW
Bobadilla, FW
Hazard, FW/W/AM (Sell him to the EPL for 40-50M or more)
Herrmann, W/WB (Some EPL team will give you 10-15M for "dat speed")
Oxford, CB/FB/DM (Not worth what it would cost to make his move permanent)

*In:*
Tuchel, Trainer
Kramaric, FW/W (if Nagelsmann leaves, otherwise, maybe Schrijvers?)
Assale, FW/W
Yeboah, W/WB
Gumny, RB/RWB
Vagnoman, LB/LWB
Soyuncu / Vogt, CB

*Depth Chart:
FW:* Raffael / Stindl / Kramaric / Assale / Villalba
*W:* Kramaric / Traore / Assale / Yeboah / Hofmann / Johnson
*MF:* Kramer / Zakaria / Cuisance / Benes / Neuhaus / Grifo
*WB:* Traore / Hofmann / Johnson / Wendt / Gumny / Yeboah / Vagnoman / Egbo
*FB:* Elvedi / Wendt / Gumny / Johnson / Vagnoman / Egbo
*CB:* Elvedi / Soyuncu / Vestegaard / Ginter / Jantschke / Strobl / Doucoure

*3-4-1-2/3-4-3*
FW - FW
FW/MF
WB - MF - MF - WB
CB - CB - CB

*4-3-3*
FW/W - FW - FW/W
MF - MF
MF
FB - CB - CB - FB

*4-4-2/4-2-4*
FW - FW
W/MF - MF - MF - W/MF
FB - CB - CB - FB​


----------



## Bon Esprit

Rumours from Hamburg:

According to kicker Hollerbah gets fired and replaced by u21 trainer Titz.
Hollerbach vor dem Aus - Titz soll folgen

Next season Thomas Doll will take over the team (in case the get relegated)
Trainer Hollerbach ganz kurz vorm Aus - Der HSV-Wahnsinn!


----------



## Bon Esprit

They really fired Hollerbach today. After 7 games. LOL.

HSV feuert Trainer Bernd Hollerbach - Christian Titz übernimmt


----------



## Albatros

With Hollerbach they wouldn't have had any hope, might as well give someone else an opportunity no matter how hopeless the situation remains.


----------



## John Pedro

cgf said:


> Alright Max, you know how sometimes you & me have these mind-meld moments where you get this great offseason plan and see what you can do to realize it? Well this is one of those moments:
> 
> *Out:*
> Hecking, Trainer
> Drmic, FW
> Bobadilla, FW
> Hazard, FW/W/AM (Sell him to the EPL for 40-50M or more)
> Herrmann, W/WB (Some EPL team will give you 10-15M for "dat speed")
> Oxford, CB/FB/DM (Not worth what it would cost to make his move permanent)
> 
> *In:*
> Tuchel, Trainer
> Kramaric, FW/W (if Nagelsmann leaves, otherwise, maybe Schrijvers?)
> Assale, FW/W
> Yeboah, W/WB
> Gumny, RB/RWB
> Vagnoman, LB/LWB
> Soyuncu / Vogt, CB
> 
> *Depth Chart:
> FW:* Raffael / Stindl / Kramaric / Assale / Villalba
> *W:* Kramaric / Traore / Assale / Yeboah / Hofmann / Johnson
> *MF:* Kramer / Zakaria / Cuisance / Benes / Neuhaus / Grifo
> *WB:* Traore / Hofmann / Johnson / Wendt / Gumny / Yeboah / Vagnoman / Egbo
> *FB:* Elvedi / Wendt / Gumny / Johnson / Vagnoman / Egbo
> *CB:* Elvedi / Soyuncu / Vestegaard / Ginter / Jantschke / Strobl / Doucoure
> 
> *3-4-1-2/3-4-3*
> FW - FW
> FW/MF
> WB - MF - MF - WB
> CB - CB - CB
> 
> *4-3-3*
> FW/W - FW - FW/W
> MF - MF
> MF
> FB - CB - CB - FB
> 
> *4-4-2/4-2-4*
> FW - FW
> W/MF - MF - MF - W/MF
> FB - CB - CB - FB​




Keep the better Hazard and bring in the better Kroos and better Boateng from Bremen and Frankfurt.


----------



## cgf

John Pedro said:


> Keep the better Hazard and bring in the better Kroos and *better Boateng* from Bremen and Frankfurt.




Boooooo

And the cooler Kroos is already at he coolest club


----------



## Deficient Mode

@cgf 



John Pedro said:


> Keep the better Hazard and bring in the better Kroos and *better Boateng* from Bremen and Frankfurt.




We don't even joke about such things after he destroyed Ballack's leg!


----------



## cgf

Geiger is going to be an amazing Weigl replacement for you when Julian goes to Manchester to complete his studies. I thought Grillitsch was massively under-rated with Werder, and he can barely get onto the pitch for Hoppenheim because of what a stud Geiger already is.

Our NT's depth at the 6 is just absurd, Weigl / Kimmich / Geiger / Meyer / Meier all already looking studtastic for their senior teams and all U23


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Geiger is going to be an amazing Weigl replacement for you when Julian goes to Manchester to complete his studies. I thought Grillitsch was massively under-rated with Werder, and he can barely get onto the pitch for Hoppenheim because of what a stud Geiger already is.
> 
> Our NT's depth at the 6 is just absurd, Weigl / Kimmich / Geiger / Meyer / Meier all already looking studtastic for their senior teams and all U23




Was tempted to post a cgf-style rating like "Busquets<<Weigl<<<Geiger" in the hot take thread but wasn't sure if that would have been appreciated.


----------



## cgf

Some of my takes are really hot, but except for when I'm obviously being facetious, I actually believe them. So a true cgf-style hot take would be "Weigl, Kimmich & Geiger are already as good as any 6 not known colloquially as 'biscuits'".

Sure some of the things that I said about Mo seemed absurd, but he was playing that well with Gladbach. He wasn't on Modric's level but there weren't too many other 8's playing better then him. Even a healthy Ilkay was only his peer, not his better. Mo's stamina problems were there, but the coaches still trusted him with massive PT & a massive role...and in that major role he was consistently showing the form he has only flashed with BVB so far. He was absolutely world class in his first season as a starter, and was WC once he got into form last season. Just go back to some of those CL clashes where BMG was able to flow through the likes of Citeh, Juve & Barca with Dahoud & Raffa pulling the strings. It was beautiful football & an absolute delight to watch.

*sigh* If Watzke weren't such a putz and had made things work with Tuchel, which would've convinced Dembele to stay for another season, people would view my love for Dahoud very differently and even Evilo would have to recognize that Mo (like Rabiot) was already a World Class 8 as Dortmund marched forward in the CL to their pre-destined battle with Pepchester.

What I wouldn't give to have gotten to watch Tuchel organizing the possession game of:

Dembele/Reus - Aubamayeng*
Dembele/Gotze
Raphael - Mo - Weigl - Pulisic
Schmelle - Toprak - Akanji
------------------------------------------
Marco - Auba* - Dembele
Mario - Mo
Weigl
Raphael - Toprak - Akanji - Castro

*Michy​


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Dahoud was excellent yesterday, but he might've not understood that you leave the field once you get two yellow cards, so he had to be subbed out at the half for Weigl.

Huge to get Batshuayi back into goal scoring form, and Pulisic has been really good the last two matches, as well. I liked the CB pairing, hoping Stoeger keeps that intact. Am I wrong for thinking Castro was not bad yesterday? Weigl was dreadful, not been a good season for him. Overall a pretty even game, but last to possess the ball won! We'll qualify for the UCL under Stoeger because we have the second best players in the league, but that shouldn't get Stoeger an extension.


----------



## John Pedro

If Tuchel goes to Bayern (Jupp's been lobbying him as his successor), what's the likely destination to Nagelsmann? stay put, Dortmund or Premier League?


----------



## Deficient Mode

John Pedro said:


> If Tuchel goes to Bayern (Jupp's been lobbying him as his successor), what's the likely destination to Nagelsmann? stay put, Dortmund or Premier League?




If Nagelsmann is on a platter this summer, Dortmund had better not show any loyalty to Stöger - who came on a temporary basis and has played shaky and poor football so far - and should take Nagelsmann. I sort of expect them to do so as well: for all we complain about Watzke, his/the club's choice in hiring coaches since and including Klopp has been good, and what the club needed at that moment. It was just his choice of firing Tuchel that we dispute. I trust him to hire Nagelsmann if he doesn't go to Bayern.


----------



## cgf

John Pedro said:


> If Tuchel goes to Bayern (Jupp's been lobbying him as his successor), what's the likely destination to Nagelsmann? stay put, Dortmund or Premier League?




I can't see Tuchel at Bayern for long. So if the Bayern board actually brought Tuchel in, Nagelsmann could still have that job within a year. Which is why it could make sense to stay in germany for another year or two to see how that played out.

If TSG are in europe next season then he could do worse than staying there for a third season; although going to Dortmund or Leipzig until Tuchel falls out with the Bayern board would be a nice way to further build his resume/hype and show his football on the CL stage.

...though that might be the fan of beautiful football in me talking...


----------



## Bure80

cgf said:


> Geiger is going to be an amazing Weigl replacement for you when Julian goes to Manchester to complete his studies.




Now i unterstand why you overestimates Weigl. You just want the highest possible price for him.
Weigl has some quality, but if Manchester really pays a good transfer fee for him bring me my barrow.


----------



## cgf

Bure80 said:


> Now i unterstand why you overestimates Weigl. You just want the highest possible price for him.
> Weigl has some Quality, but if Manchester really pays a good transfer fee for him bring me my barrow.




Why would I care how much Watzke gets for Weigl? It’s not like Union would get a cut *shrug* The kid is a world class 6, despite having a down season


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> Now i unterstand why you overestimates Weigl. You just want the highest possible price for him.
> Weigl has some quality, but if Manchester really pays a good transfer fee for him bring me my barrow.




Every part of this post is wrong


----------



## Bure80

He had one good season with the likes of Gündogan and Hummels. He hasnt proofed his qualitiy alone. You call him world class way to early.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> He had one good season with the likes of Gündogan and Hummels. He hasnt proofed his qualitiy alone. You call him world class way to early.




He was fantastic last year as well actually


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> He was fantastic last year as well actually




Psh, you and your indisputable facts


----------



## Bure80

Deficient Mode said:


> He was fantastic last year as well actually




Well you know Dortmund is the team in blackyellow. Think we see different games. Im in a German sportforum too.
Nobody sees Weigl as world class player there. And if you think he is worldclass, what is Gündogan for you?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> Well you know Dortmund is the team in blackyellow. Think we see different games. Im in a German sportforum too.
> Nobody sees Weigl as world class player there. And if you think he is worldclass, what is Gündogan for you?




Feel free to watch highlights of him from last year and tell me again that he was just a product of Gündogan.



I find it ironic that you complain about Weigl only being special one season but then point to Gündogan, who was exceptional his 2nd and 5th years in Dortmund, but struggled or was injured in other years.

Anyway, they play very different positions. Gündogan is and was a better player when healthy, but Weigl's job was more to keep the opposition's pressing off-balance in buildup than to play box-to-box, and few in football today do so better. "World class" remains a subjective description. Compared to a guy like Busquets, who consistently puts in amazing performances from new coach to new coach - no matter how abandoned and unsupported he was in midfield - Weigl's performances now look to be more dependent on Tuchel's direction, but we'll see how he develops.


----------



## BKIslandersFan

What will it take to overthrow Bayern? Geez. I suppose BVB will eventually do it but when?


----------



## cgf

BKIslandersFan said:


> What will it take to overthrow Bayern? Geez. *I suppose BVB will eventually do it but when?*




Nah, Watzke is too busy building up his reputation for making money. He doesn't have enough ambition to lead BVB to the saladbowl against Bayern now that they've got their s*** together again.


----------



## BKIslandersFan

cgf said:


> Nah, Watzke is too busy building up his reputation for making money. He doesn't have enough ambition to lead BVB to the saladbowl against Bayern now that they've got their s*** together again.



Yuck, so RB Leipzig huh?


----------



## cgf

BKIslandersFan said:


> Yuck, so RB Leipzig huh?




 We'll see how high their ambitions truly are


----------



## Deficient Mode

BKIslandersFan said:


> What will it take to overthrow Bayern? Geez. I suppose BVB will eventually do it but when?




Problem right now is that all the challengers are regressing to mediocrity faster than Bayern are. There could be another episode like when BVB turned into a great side for a few years and shocked Bayern back into excellence to stay ahead. It doesn't look to be on the horizon anytime soon though.


----------



## BKIslandersFan

Bundesliga might turn in to Greek League bad when it comes to competitiveness


----------



## Deficient Mode

BKIslandersFan said:


> Bundesliga might turn in to Greek League bad when it comes to competitiveness




As long as no German club executives charge onto the field to berate the officials with handguns at their hips, I'll be ok


----------



## Bon Esprit

Lucien Favre is linked to BvB (again)
Dortmund findet Alternative zu Stöger: In die BVB-Trainerfrage kommt Bewegung - Video


----------



## cgf

Lucien deserves better than having to deal with Watzke


----------



## Bon Esprit

Yesterday's result and calling out Götze seals the deal. Stöger will be out sooner rather than later.
Who's next?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Yesterday's result and calling out Götze seals the deal. Stöger will be out sooner rather than later.
> Who's next?




I certainly hope so but I'm not as confident it will discredit him entirely.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I feel like ever since Reus has returned, Goetze has struggled, and I think its partly because Stoeger has them switch around too much during the course of a match. Stoeger seems to believe that Reus is a #10 or very capable of playing the position, he's played there a lot. Goetze is purely a central player. He can occupy wide spots if the on-field play dictates he goes wide, but he shouldn't be playing large amounts of the game as a winger. Thats a good way for your best player to be ineffective.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I feel like ever since Reus has returned, Goetze has struggled, and I think its partly because Stoeger has them switch around too much during the course of a match. Stoeger seems to believe that Reus is a #10 or very capable of playing the position, he's played there a lot. Goetze is purely a central player. He can occupy wide spots if the on-field play dictates he goes wide, but he shouldn't be playing large amounts of the game as a winger. Thats a good way for your best player to be ineffective.




Yep. I agree. Götze is playing far too wide. Anyone with half a brain can see he isn't fast, he's not going to beat a defender one on one, and is generally totally wasted out wide. And Stöger calls _him_ out for playing badly in the terrible spot where Stöger put him.


----------



## Bon Esprit

No Dortmund player on the roster for the upcoming games vs. Brazil and Spain. Last games before the WC. Reus was clear, because of his recent injury.


----------



## Bure80

I never bought Götze back. He is a middleclass Bundesliga player now.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bure80 said:


> I never bought Götze back. He is a middleclass Bundesliga player now.




Are there are Dortmund players who you think are good?


----------



## Bure80

Maybe im a bit spoiled from the team under Klopp and Tuchel.
But there are some players i like.
Pisczek, Guerreiro, Kagawa, Reus, Sancho, Pulisic, Batshuayi
Dahoud is a talented player, but it needs more time to see, if he can grow into leader role for Dortmund.


----------



## cgf

Bure80 said:


> I never bought Götze back. He is a middleclass Bundesliga player now.




Please tell me you’re English & don’t mean what I think you mean when you say “middle-class”


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> Please tell me you’re English & don’t mean what I think you mean when you say “middle-class”



I am not Bure, but I think I know what he means. Götze is far away from being as dominat as he used to be. As of today he isn't liked by Stöger and Low.


----------



## cgf

Raffa comes on at the 70th minute, BMG ties it at the 71st



Bon Esprit said:


> I am not Bure, but I think I know what he means. Götze is far away from being as dominat as he used to be. As of today he isn't liked by Stöger and Low.




Mario is having the best season he's had since his second year in bavaria. And being disliked by Stoger is proof.


----------



## cgf

I love having Raffa back 

DRMIC!!! WHY YOU SO USELESS!?!?!?!?!? WHY!?!?!?!?!?!?


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> Raffa comes on at the 70th minute, BMG ties it at the 71st
> 
> 
> 
> Mario is having the best season he's had since his second year in bavaria. And being disliked by Stoger is proof.



He is NOT on Löw's roster! You think he is special right now? Did you watch the game vs Salzburg? No, he is not good right now.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> He is NOT on Löw's roster! You think he is special right now? Did you watch the game vs Salzburg? No, he is not good right now.




Nah skipped the Salzburg embarassment because Stoger really has them playing hideous football; but I've watched Mario plenty this year and he's been having arguably his best season now that he's finally being used more like an 8...like I've been saying he should be for years...even with Stoger's horribly organized possession play.

And who cares if he's not on Jogi's roster? Neither are Kruse or Kramer. Jogi's a known idiot.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bure80 said:


> Maybe im a bit spoiled from the team under Klopp and Tuchel.
> But there are some players i like.
> Pisczek, Guerreiro, Kagawa, Reus, Sancho, Pulisic, Batshuayi
> Dahoud is a talented player, but it needs more time to see, if he can grow into leader role for Dortmund.




Fair enough. I don't agree with you about Goetze or Weigl, but you are entitled to your opinion. 

I like Sancho as well, and I'm tired of watching Schurrle trampoline the ball off his knee every time he shows for the ball. We need to stop using Schurrle, and start using Philipp and Sancho. 

The winger spots should be a four man rotation of Reus, Pulisic, Philipp and Sancho. Reus and Philipp can also be used as back ups for Batshuayi. Don't want to see Schurrle again this season. Tell him to pack his bags, and find a different team in the summer transfer window.


----------



## cgf

Anyway, in the half hour that Raffa played BMG scored 2 and gave up one, but if Drmic weren't useless they would've scored 3.

Now that he's back BMG can go on a run to save their season...especially if Hecking gives this back 3 thing a serious run:

Raffa - Stindl
Hazard/Cuisance
Johnson - Zakaria - Kramer -Hofmann
Elvedi - Vestegaard - Ginter​


----------



## Bure80

Sorry middle-class was the wrong word. Medicore is the right word. Im not even harsh with my words, Some one a German Sportforum called his performence against Salzburg not fit for Bundesliga.
I follow him since he was 16. Years ago he was the best BVB player and one of the most talented guys, i ever saw in German Football. But he lost all his strength. Its no accident that Stöger, Zorc, Löw, Matthäus and many others criticize him.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

cgf said:


> Nah skipped the Salzburg embarassment because Stoger really has them playing hideous football; but I've watched Mario plenty this year and he's been having arguably his best season now that he's finally being used more like an 8...like I've been saying he should be for years...even with Stoger's horribly organized possession play.
> 
> And who cares if he's not on Jogi's roster? Neither are Kruse or Kramer. Jogi's a known idiot.




I think Stoeger wants to play with two strikers, and he's too scared to actually do so at a big club. I think Stoeger doesn't think Goetze fits in his style of neanderthal football. He might consider Goetze too much of a luxury player for his style.

Some of the tactical changes he makes in the front-line are bizarre. He's used Schurrle in the #10 role, he's used Reus in the #10 role, he brings on Isak as a second striker often when we need a goal. 

I like Reus, but not a #10, he's a left-winger or a false 9. I think Schurrle as a #10 was just a disguise to play two strikers. And while I think Isak could be a decent player eventually, he pretty much sucks right now, and should not be taking the spot during a winnable match of a real #10.


----------



## cgf

Bure80 said:


> Sorry middle-class was the wrong word. Medicore is the right word. Im not even harsh with my words, Some one a German Sportforum called his performence against Salzburg not fit for Bundesliga.
> I follow him since he was 16. Years ago he was the best BVB player and one of the most talented guys, i ever saw in German Football. But he lost all his strength. Its no accident that Stöger, Zorc, Löw, Matthäus and many others criticize him.




Zorc is the only one of those names I have any respect for, and I must have missed his comments on Mario.

Idiots like Lodar are expected to talk shit about him now that Mario plays deeper and has a much more subtle influence on the game. That's not actually proof of anything since Lodar is one of the dumbest humans capable of breathing for themselves.


----------



## cgf

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I think Stoeger wants to play with two strikers, and he's too scared to actually do so at a big club. I think Stoeger doesn't think Goetze fits in his style of neanderthal football. He might consider Goetze too much of a luxury player for his style.
> 
> Some of the tactical changes he makes in the front-line are bizarre. He's used Schurrle in the #10 role, he's used Reus in the #10 role, he brings on Isak as a second striker often when we need a goal.
> 
> I like Reus, but not a #10, he's a left-winger or a false 9. I think Schurrle as a #10 was just a disguise to play two strikers. And while I think Isak could be a decent player eventually, he pretty much sucks right now, and should not be taking the spot during a winnable match of a real #10.




That's cause Stoger only knows how to bunker and pray for set pieces. Thus why Koln imploded when they no longer had Modeste flying through the air for them to bounce goals in off of.

Organizing possession is simply beyond his capabilities.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> He is NOT on Löw's roster! You think he is special right now? Did you watch the game vs Salzburg? No, he is not good right now.




He has been on Löw's roster many times in his second spell at Dortmund, where you think he has been average.



Bure80 said:


> Sorry middle-class was the wrong word. Medicore is the right word. Im not even harsh with my words, Some one a German Sportforum called his performence against Salzburg not fit for Bundesliga.
> I follow him since he was 16. Years ago he was the best BVB player and one of the most talented guys, i ever saw in German Football. But he lost all his strength. Its no accident that Stöger, Zorc, Löw, Matthäus and many others criticize him.




No surprise that it goes totally over your head that he was put in a position where he couldn't succeed against Salzburg, since you completely misunderstand the role of coaching in drawing out good performances from players.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Zorc is the only one of those names I have any respect for, and I must have missed his comments on Mario.
> 
> Idiots like Lodar are expected to talk **** about him now that Mario plays deeper and has a much more subtle influence on the game. That's not actually proof of anything since Lodar is one of the dumbest humans capable of breathing for themselves.




Zorc is certainly a reactionary when it comes to blaming the players alone. Remember a few weeks ago when Bürki complained about the fans ridiculing him and Zorc sided with the fans and criticized Bürki as well? Similar case with Götze.


> Michael Zorc hat in der Diskussion um die Kritik an Mario Götze (25, Foto) Verständnis für die deutlichen Worte von Trainer Peter Stöger geäußert. „Es geht gar nicht darum, Einzelne rauszupicken“, sagte der Sportdirektor von Borussia Dortmund am Freitag nach der Rückkehr aus Salzburg. „Aber es ist nicht nur das Recht, sondern auch die absolute Pflicht des Trainers, die Dinge anzusprechen, die nicht funktionieren. Ich stehe 100-prozentig dahinter.“


----------



## Bure80

Deficient Mode said:


> He has been on Löw's roster many times in his second spell at Dortmund, where you think he has been average.
> 
> 
> 
> No surprise that it goes totally over your head that he was put in a position where he couldn't succeed against Salzburg, since you completely misunderstand the role of coaching in drawing out good performances from players.




Sure all great German Ex-Football Players are not happy with Götze's performence but you know it better. I know many BVB Fans. You are almost the only one who is happy with his performence.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> Sure all great German Ex-Football Players are not happy with Götze's performence but you know it better. I know many BVB Fans. You are almost the only one who is happy with his performence.




who tf cares what they think? Being a great player doesn't make them a great commentator. You clearly only pay attention to the segment of fans who have the same mentality as you. I know many fans who think Götze has been the best BVB player this year, starting with Pavel.

As far as the opinions of ex-stars go, this is pretty much the only one I care about, and no surprise that it's 100% right:



> "Ich glaube, dass Mario ein Spielertyp ist, der niemals in Frage gestellt werden darf, um seine hundertprozentige Leistung zu bringen. Dann kann er explodieren", sagte Sammer gegenüber _Eurosport_.
> 
> Und der 49-Jährige weiter: "Mario braucht von seinem Persönlichkeitsprofil her immer die klare Unterstützung eines Vereins - auch in Phasen, in denen es manchmal schwierig ist, egal ob sportlich oder gesundheitlich - und muss die Unterstützung vor allem eines Trainers spüren. Sobald Mario vor allem sportlich in einer Konkurrenzsituation ist, vielleicht auch nicht das Vertrauen so spürt, verliert er unglaublich an seiner Strahlkraft, unglaublich an Kreativität."


----------



## Bure80

Sorry ive found nothing positive.


Götze bewegt sich wie ein 6. Ligakicker der mal bei den Profis mitspielen darf. Unfassbar traurig, der Junge ist komplett durch.

Spielt Götze eigentlich? Wird ja immer viel über Schürrle geschimpft, aber Götze imo deutlich schwächer, weil nicht präsent die letzten Wochen. Zumindest was ich gesehen habe.

Schon krass, was Götze da nach einer Bundesliga-Pause hinlegt. Hab da keine Hoffnung mehr. Null Impact.

Dieses Spiel ist so witzig, was der BVB da spielt ist wirklich amüsant, Socke im Holzfußmodus, die linke Seite mit einem Schmelzer und Schürrle ist das traurigste was man in diesem Wettbewerb zu sehen bekommt. Götze ist schlechtester Spieler auf dem ganzen Feld.

Götze war mal *das *Supertalent überhaupt im Weltfußball (neben Neymar). Unfassbar, was aus ihm geworden ist.

Götze hat sich ja wohl irgendwo via Twitter oder so ganz süffisant zu der Stöger Kritik geäußert und sich dafür bedankt, er könne jetzt an seinen Defiziten arbeiten. Der hat es immer noch nicht kapiert.

Ja, die Leistung Schmelzer zum Kapitän, Rode und Schürrle als Stammspieler verpflichtet zu haben. In der letzten Saison war man doch nicht mal wirklich besser. Dembele anstatt der Anti-Fußballer und es würde auch anders aussehen.
Schönwetterspieler finde ich auch gar nicht mal so angebracht. Die Meisten kämpfen doch, nur sind sie halt nicht besser. Das hat Stöger gestern auch durch die Blume so gesagt. Einstellung macht Götze auch nicht dynamischer oder Schürrle technisch stärker.

Diese Truppe kannst du in die Tonne jagen, Sokratis, Schmelzer, Sahin, Schürrle oder Götze die allesamt die gestandene Spitze darstellen sollen, sind ein totaler Witzhaufen. Schmelzer ist ein Spieler der über fast seine gesamte Karriere von Hummels und dem System Klopp getragen wurde. 

Echt traurig, dass man nicht weiter mit einem Trainer zusammengearbeitet hat, der sich mit der Vereinsführung überworfen hatte. Ich hätte so gerne noch weitere Transfers wie Schürrle und Götze gesehen.

Verstehe ich was falsch oder war das gar nicht der Punkt. Götze hat sich doch taktisch verweigert. Abgesehen davon hat Götze schon bei Bayern massiv abgehoben und ein Einstellungsproblem entwickelt. Seine körperlichen Probleme sind da nur die Ergänzung


----------



## Deficient Mode

Ok well if you want to copy paste rants from another forum, fine. Hardly encompasses the full breadth of fan opinion. Here's a quick twitter search:







Luca on Twitter

JF Moore on Twitter

goes on and on


----------



## Bure80

To be the best player for Dortmund this season isnt a big thing. Anyway Kagawa >>> Götze.
I saw today on sky Sport news that Götze not won a single 1vs1 in 2018.


----------



## cgf

Man if Eberl could sell Ginter to Juve for 20-25M, Hazard to Everton for 45M+ and Herrmann to some lower english team for 10-15M, he could really go to work this summer. That 75-85M+ in the summer would be more than enough for Kramaric, Assale, Soyuncu, Vogt/Kempf, Yeboah, Gumny, Vagnoman, and Tuchel.

PS if Watzke hires Kovac, or even Hassenhuttl


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Man if Eberl could sell Ginter to Juve for 20-25M, Hazard to Everton for 45M+ and Herrmann to some lower english team for 10-15M, he could really go to work this summer. That 75-85M+ in the summer would be more than enough for Kramaric, Assale, Soyuncu, Vogt/Kempf, Yeboah, Gumny, Vagnoman, and Tuchel.
> 
> PS if Watzke hires Kovac, or even Hassenhuttl




Juve want Ginter? Man, they make some weird decisions sometimes. They are talking about 100M for the lesser Hazard so 45M for Thorgan would be a huge discount.

Hasenhüttl>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kovac. I saw someone float the idea of Kovac to Bayern the other day and was just floored. I guess all you have to do is fluke your way to the top of the trash heap of mediocrity in the bottom 17 and some people will think you're Bayern material.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Juve want Ginter? Man, they make some weird decisions sometimes. They are talking about 100M for the lesser Hazard so 45M for Thorgan would be a huge discount.
> 
> Hasenhüttl>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kovac. I saw someone float the idea of Kovac to Bayern the other day and was just floored. I guess all you have to do is fluke your way to the top of the trash heap of mediocrity in the bottom 17 and some people will think you're Bayern material.




They're scouting him apparently...how it's him they want and not Elvedi or Vestegaard I don't know, but I also won't complain. And the cooler Borussia is so cool that they'll take a discount for the cooler Hazard...if it means they can buy Kramaric, Assale and pocket 20M...granted part of that is just how badly I want to see Raffa, Lars & Kramaric combining & rotating. If Assale adapted quickly that would be a disgustingly fun trident to watch operate even if they can't woo Tuchel or bring Favre back.

Hasenhuttl is a lot better than Kovac, but even he would be a massive disappointment for a club who had Tuchel at the helm 12 months ago as he still doesn't understand possession, even if he is good at organizing pressing and could at least get you back to Kloppo levels.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Deficient Mode said:


> who tf cares what they think? Being a great player doesn't make them a great commentator. You clearly only pay attention to the segment of fans who have the same mentality as you. I know many fans who think Götze has been the best BVB player this year, starting with Pavel.
> 
> As far as the opinions of ex-stars go, this is pretty much the only one I care about, and no surprise that it's 100% right:




Sammer's opinion, however, would be an indictment of Goetze and perhaps explaining why his career never got to the next level. If you only perform in a situation where you're the undisputed superstar who is beyond criticism and attempts from rivals to take your spot..you are not really going to be very successful in professional sports. Even at a team at Dortmund's level - i.e. not quite the absolute elite of clubs - you're not going to be in that luxurious position for very long. IMO Goetze's problem came on early when they were crowning him the next German "Weltstar" as a 17 year old..and then he came back overweight and out of shape after the off-season. Too much, too soon.


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Sammer's opinion, however, would be an indictment of Goetze and perhaps explaining why his career never got to the next level. If you only perform in a situation where you're the undisputed superstar who is beyond criticism and attempts from rivals to take your spot..you are not really going to be very successful in professional sports. Even at a team at Dortmund's level - i.e. not quite the absolute elite of clubs - you're not going to be in that luxurious position for very long. IMO Goetze's problem came on early when they were crowning him the next German "Weltstar" as a 17 year old..and then he came back overweight and out of shape after the off-season. Too much, too soon.




There's plenty of stars in all sports who need to be coddled and to feel their team's trust in their abilities to shine. A lot of these guys are no more than over-grown children; and instilling self-belief in them is a huge part of coaching.

It's literally the only reason Kovac has had any success despite his tactical-incompetence; and why Klopp has gotten away with never learning to deal with a parked bus.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

cgf said:


> There's plenty of stars in all sports who need to be coddled and to feel their team's trust in their abilities. A lot of these guys are no more than over-grown children. And instilling self-belief is a huge part of coaching.




There's different stages and situations. A guy who's been in the game for 10 years and has reached the top of the mountain already i.e. a proven and established superstar like a Messi or a Tom Brady naturally expect a certain status in a team and a treatment that goes along with it. If you've shown again and again you can do it, you don't want someone to doubt/challenge you on that score every day..but it's different if you're in a position where you have to prove yourself. 

When Goetze went to Bayern, that was the time for him to prove himself at the highest level, and he wasn't up for it. Bayern bought him because they expected him to make a leap forward to push into the world elite..and it didn't happen. Then he went back to Dortmund and the initial outcomes weren't great, so again he still had to prove himself. And even now, while I trust you that he's been doing better, he's not a Messi or Tom Brady, he's still in a position where people are going to keep an eye on what he does - especially in a situation where the manager himself is under a bit of pressure and in a position where he needs to prove himself. 

I think when all is said and done Goetze may end up having had an Andi Moeller type career rather than that of a superstar..and you know that's not a bad career really, it's just well short of what he may have been capable of with a different mental makeup.


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> There's different stages and situations. A guy who's been in the game for 10 years and has reached the top of the mountain already i.e. a proven and established superstar like a Messi or a Tom Brady naturally expect a certain status in a team and a treatment that goes along with it. If you've shown again and again you can do it, you don't want someone to doubt/challenge you on that score every day..but it's different if you're in a position where you have to prove yourself.
> 
> When Goetze went to Bayern, that was the time for him to prove himself at the highest level, and he wasn't up for it. Bayern bought him because they expected him to make a leap forward to push into the world elite..and it didn't happen. Then he went back to Dortmund and the initial outcomes weren't great, so again he still had to prove himself. And even now, while I trust you that he's been doing better, he's not a Messi or Tom Brady, he's still in a position where people are going to keep an eye on what he does - especially in a situation where the manager himself is under a bit of pressure and in a position where he needs to prove himself.
> 
> I think when all is said and done Goetze may end up having had an Andi Moeller type career rather than that of a superstar..and you know that's not a bad career really, it's just well short of what he may have been capable of with a different mental makeup.




Most players who successfully make the jump to the senior level need to feel like their coach really believes in them to go out there and be able to single-handedly shutdown Messi. Especially with younger players who become stars early in their careers. That's where Gotze's Bayern tenure turned south, despite starting so well. When pep grew frustrated that Bayern had bought him an Iniesta, when what he wanted was Neymar, and Mario stopped being able to trust his body, that's when his eventual departure became an eventuality.

Ultimately I agree that when all is said & done Mario won't have the career he could have had. But that's because of his health & because he spent so much time being forced to play as a creative forward or wide player rather than a creative 8 like he's finally gotten to do of late...which his spurred his strong form this year despite his fitness still being a work in progress.

Depending on who his next coach is and if he can continue to regain his fitness, he may yet still win the acclaim that was expected of him. Though at the moment I have too little faith in Watzke for that happen.


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Sammer's opinion, however, would be an indictment of Goetze and perhaps explaining why his career never got to the next level. If you only perform in a situation where you're the undisputed superstar who is beyond criticism and attempts from rivals to take your spot..you are not really going to be very successful in professional sports. Even at a team at Dortmund's level - i.e. not quite the absolute elite of clubs - you're not going to be in that luxurious position for very long. IMO Goetze's problem came on early when they were crowning him the next German "Weltstar" as a 17 year old..and then he came back overweight and out of shape after the off-season. *Too much, too soon.*




It's an appealing narrative if you think most good things result primarily from fighting and hard work. It's not really accurate when you consider that he continued to perform well at Bayern when healthy, and that even his weight issues had a more direct, physical cause in his hereditary metabolic myopathy.

Despite all his health issues, his teams have pretty much always had far better goal differentials when he's on the pitch than when he's off. In fact, he's one of the best in the world in that regard. Hard to view his career as a failure with that in mind even if he didn't stick at Bayern.


----------



## Bon Esprit

We can talk and talk and talk. Fact is: Marion Götze since he came back: 3 goals/4 assists. Even if we put his health issues in consideration it's not enough.
You must expect leadership from a guy with that talent. Didn't happen. That's one of the reasons BVB today is a borderline CL club. I hope for you BVB fans the Salzburg series was the low. That was ugly to witness.
But don't worry, it will be enough today vs H96.


----------



## Bure80

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> I think when all is said and done Goetze may end up having had an Andi Moeller type career rather than that of a superstar..and you know that's not a bad career really, it's just well short of what he may have been capable of with a different mental makeup.




I would be very happy if he has a career like Möller. Now he is by far not at Möller's level. I know Football is not only about stats but Möller had 171 Points in 301 games for Dortmund. Götze has a long way to go to come close. Möller was a leader of the CL winner team too.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Köln won.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> We can talk and talk and talk. Fact is: Marion Götze since he came back: 3 goals/4 assists. Even if we put his health issues in consideration it's not enough.
> You must expect leadership from a guy with that talent. Didn't happen. That's one of the reasons BVB today is a borderline CL club. I hope for you BVB fans the Salzburg series was the low. That was ugly to witness.
> But don't worry, it will be enough today vs H96.




That’s plenty for an 8. How many goals and assists do modric & iniesta have?


Bure80 said:


> I would be very happy if he has a career like Möller. Now he is by far not at Möller's level. I know Football is not only about stats but Möller had 171 Points in 301 games for Dortmund. Götze has a long way to go to come close. Möller was a leader of the CL winner team too.




“I know football isn’t about stats, so let me base my entire argument on stats”


----------



## cgf

Timo beats the keeper but can't beat Sule


----------



## Deficient Mode

Nice, simple counter football on that second goal

Also these Bayern away jerseys look way too much like Leipzig away jerseys


----------



## Live in the Now

Glad that Keita didn't stay in bad form all season and is back to greatness.


----------



## cgf

Live in the Now said:


> Glad that Keita didn't stay in bad form all season and is back to greatness.




Agreed, btw where you the one who first mentioned a young Fernando Torres as a Timo-comp?


----------



## Live in the Now

cgf said:


> Agreed, btw where you the one who first mentioned a young Fernando Torres as a Timo-comp?




I thought more like David Villa because he was more of a counter player, but that's basically the same thing.


----------



## cgf

Live in the Now said:


> I thought more like David Villa because he was more of a counter player, but that's basically the same thing.




gotcha, just wanted to give some props because I use that comp all the time now and can't believe I didn't think of it...mine used to be a faster Klinsi

PS You consider Villa to be more the counter player? I always felt like he was much more clever when interplaying with the rest of that spanish team, while Torres was more the wild man who ran away from everyone when they did decide to counter :-/ I didn't watch too much La Liga during the young-Torres and Villa days though, so that's mostly based on CL & NT play.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

We were absolutely awful today. We won though, so extend Stoeger.


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> That’s plenty for an 8. How many goals and assists do modric & iniesta have?
> 
> 
> “I know football isn’t about stats, so let me base my entire argument on stats”



Today's Götze has nothing to do with Iniesta. Like Bure said Götze needs to prove he can take the next step. I have doubts. He'll maybe end up being the former "best German player that didn't pan out" of his age.
Overall I'm not impressed with Götze.


----------



## Bon Esprit

In other news Bayern lost to Leipzig. Funny.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> Today's Götze has nothing to do with Iniesta. Like Bure said Götze needs to prove he can take the next step. I have doubts. He'll maybe end up being the former "best German player that didn't pan out" of his age.
> Overall I'm not impressed with Götze.




He certainly does he plays the same position as those two. He doesn't play where Mesut, or even KdB do. It's not his job to get goals & assists and he's very slick at his job...at least in the matches I've seen of theirs this season. The overall possession structure is crappy so their movements end up falling apart, but I haven't been this impressed with Mario since BVB pulled the silver-treble


----------



## Live in the Now

cgf said:


> gotcha, just wanted to give some props because I use that comp all the time now and can't believe I didn't think of it...mine used to be a faster Klinsi
> 
> PS You consider Villa to be more the counter player? I always felt like he was much more clever when interplaying with the rest of that spanish team, while Torres was more the wild man who ran away from everyone when they did decide to counter :-/ I didn't watch too much La Liga during the young-Torres and Villa days though, so that's mostly based on CL & NT play.




See the way I see Villa is as the counter player, because at Valencia with Silva and Mata that was how they played. Constantly on the break. I also think of the goal he scored against Chile in 2010 where they were countering, Bravo comes out to tackle, and he hits the ball from miles away to put it in the goal. At Liverpool with Torres I remember games like Inter and RM where they completely dominated on the front foot and put him in position to smash the ball in with just a few touches.

I think with the benefit of hindsight that Villa was the better overall player, and I also think that with the benefit of that hindsight that I would rather compare Timo to him, as I also think Timo would be great as a front foot forward.


----------



## Bure80

cgf said:


> He certainly does he plays the same position as those two. He doesn't play where Mesut, or even KdB do. It's not his job to get goals & assists and he's very slick at his job...at least in the matches I've seen of theirs this season. The overall possession structure is crappy so their movements end up falling apart, but I haven't been this impressed with Mario since BVB pulled the silver-treble




It doesnt matter where he plays. On the highest level you need a minimum of dynamic. That's what Götze lost. Slowly i would rank Dahoud above him at the 8 Position.


----------



## cgf

Bure80 said:


> It doesnt matter where he plays. *On the highest level you need a minimum of dynamic*. That's what Götze lost. Slowly i would rank Dahoud above him at the 8 Position.




All I have to say to this is Toni. Kroos.

...and Xavi even.


----------



## Deficient Mode

All the criticisms of Götze harp on the common theme that he's not good enough in individual situations and ignore how brilliant he is in a team dynamic. It really doesn't matter if he's not fast or doesn't challenge defenders.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Dahoud has had a few really good matches in a row. I'm also liking Akanji's play. Good signing.


----------



## cgf

lol Dadashov's career continues to sink further as Frankfurt terminate his contract.

Good thing he got that payout for switching NTs before ceasing to give any f***s.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich




----------



## cgf

If Watzke could snag those two & Nagelsmann that would be an insanely good summer...provided he also got an adequate Weigl-replacement...


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

cgf said:


> If Watzke could snag those two & Nagelsmann that would be an insanely good summer...provided he also got an adequate Weigl-*replacement*...




Back up


----------



## Albatros

cgf said:


> lol Dadashov's career continues to sink further as Frankfurt terminate his contract.
> 
> Good thing he got that payout for switching NTs before ceasing to give any f***s.




He wasn't any different before, always been a total idiot. But with his talent he will find a new club to poison the dressing room in.


----------



## Just Win

Pavel Buchnevich said:


>





Tah signed a new contract until 2023 about a month ago. Getting rid of that €25m release clause was one of the main reasons for the extension.


----------



## Daeni10

Bon Esprit said:


> Köln won.




You were suprised by that? We gonna do it


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Zagadou played once under Stoeger, got a muscle injury, and will likely miss the rest of the season.

It is irresponsible to have a player go 90 minutes in a big match after not playing him for 4 months. Great way to get injured.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

GOMEZ


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Thats settled, then.


----------



## Albatros

#MeToo reaching German football:

Ich wurde im Zug von randalierenden Fußballfans belästigt – so habe ich mich gewehrt


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> #MeToo reaching German football:
> 
> Ich wurde im Zug von randalierenden Fußballfans belästigt – so habe ich mich gewehrt




Gross. Also fewer police, not more.


----------



## Bure80

Watzke announced very good news yesterday. Matthias Sammer is back in Dortmund.
Kehl will likely be added too,

Sammer returning to Dortmund as advisor


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I understand that Weigl has been bad this season, but bad Weigl>Castro. It also forces Dahoud to play a role he probably isn't capable of playing against Bayern.


----------



## Bon Esprit

So Köln conceded 6 and HSV are still last. Lol.
96 with a great comeback, destroyed by the refs. Whatever, every serious fan knew it was coming and as long as the teams below us suck even worse, I am okay with that.
Leverkusen can't win or score, I hope they don't sneak into the CL spots.
Bayern might win this evening, probably it won't be that hard.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

That should be brought back for offside.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Didn't even look at it.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

We lasted 4 minutes.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

That was also offside, and he made the right call.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Over/under Bayern scores 10


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

There's no way Stoeger will be brought back.


----------



## SJSharks72

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Over/under Bayern scores 10



Under

No but seriously Bayern is so good. What amazes me is that James who was not good at Real and on the outside is one of Bayern’s best players. Best part about this game is that Dortmund aren’t just sitting back.


----------



## cgf

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> There's no way Stoeger will be brought back.




What? After the tremendous effect he's had on your backline?


----------



## cgf

SJSharks39 said:


> Under
> 
> No but seriously Bayern is so good. What amazes me is that James who was not good at Real and on the outside *is one of Bayern’s best players.* Best part about this game is that Dortmund aren’t just sitting back.




All of Bayern's players are one of their best players.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Well I think I'll write a paper instead of watching the rest of this


----------



## Vipers31

Honestly, I would say James has been the best player for us more often than anyone else. He's been terrific. Thank god Zidane didn't find a spot for him in his system, his scoring numbers per minute were pretty damn good with Real, as well. Either way, he's been a tremendous fit, we've been needing someone with his creative offensive game for some time.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Thats settled, then.





Defensive solidity indeed.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

James was good at Real, as well. There's always a player at Real Madrid who plays really well, but doesn't get enough playing time.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Schurrle



Gomez for Schurrle at the half?


----------



## SJSharks72

cgf said:


> All of Bayern's players are one of their best players.



Well yeah but James is James...


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nice defending, lads.


----------



## kingsboy11

#Stogerout


----------



## Vipers31

Well, this was fun. Very Hamburg-esque showing at the Allianz.

EDIT: Should have gone with Hamburgeoise. 

EDITEDIT: Should have gone with the ninja-edit.


----------



## Bon Esprit

kingsboy11 said:


> #Stogerout



I don't think Stöger has much to do with this mess. Looking at Watzke and Zorc instead.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I can cut Zorc a break, but certainly not Watzke after he was the reason Tuchel left.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

SJSharks39 said:


> Under
> 
> No but seriously Bayern is so good. What amazes me is that James who was not good at Real and on the outside is one of Bayern’s best players. Best part about this game is that Dortmund aren’t just sitting back.




This is because Zizo bypasses his midfield and just play hoof ball from Marcelo/Carvalh. One reason why Isco can piss on Argentinas midfield but can't get a foothold in Madrid.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

You guys are still watching this?


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

For real though how did it come to this for Dortmund. 

I wonder if Arsenal B squad can beat them now?


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> You guys are still watching this?




Who doesn't like a good broken train wreck?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> For real though how did it come to this for Dortmund.
> 
> I wonder if Arsenal B squad can beat them now?




Ouch.

I mean, it was incredibly obvious that Dortmund would unravel against any good team. I suppose they're a bit like Arsenal in that they've been piling up results against bad teams and suck against good ones. Only their performances against bad teams are far worse than Arsenal's.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> I don't think Stöger has much to do with this mess. Looking at Watzke and Zorc instead.




He definitely does. They were in incredible disarray when he got there but he hasn't improved them at all in almost 4 months. They just play for results better than they did under Bosz. Barely squeaking by mediocre to awful Bundesliga teams. Underlying performances are still awful.


----------



## cgf

SJSharks39 said:


> Well yeah but James is James...




He's great, but so are Boa, Mats, Kimmich, Thiago, healthy-Robben, etc. James may be the best of the bunch this year, but those dicks are so stupidly stacked that a case could be made for half the starting lineup.


----------



## Cassano

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> For real though how did it come to this for Dortmund.
> 
> *I wonder if Arsenal B squad can beat them now?*



Well they are certainly capable of beating themselves, if that's what you're asking!


----------



## LightningStrikes

SOG 10-7 but 5-0. Go Bayern!


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Deficient Mode said:


> Ouch.
> 
> I mean, it was incredibly obvious that Dortmund would unravel against any good team. I suppose they're a bit like Arsenal in that they've been piling up results against bad teams and suck against good ones. Only their performances against bad teams are far worse than Arsenal's.




You took my post too seriously. I think both are trash and not far off Everton atm.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

cgf said:


> He's great, but so are Boa, Mats, Kimmich, Thiago, healthy-Robben, etc. James may be the best of the bunch this year, but those dicks are so stupidly stacked that a case could be made for half the starting lineup.




I'm still trying to figure out how Ribery is still on the team? Is he really that great in the one game he plays a year?


----------



## Bure80

The collocation of the midfield Castro/Weigl/Dahoud is a disaster, You cant win such games if you play incorporeal.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> You took my post too seriously. I think both are trash and not far off Everton atm.




It's a good question though. Arsenal is probably less mediocre though because from watching them I don't think their luck has favored them nearly as much as Dortmund's has this season. Dortmund will probably be in a CL spot though because all the non-Bayern teams are rubbish now, while Arsenal won't. We'll see where Dortmund are next season.


----------



## cgf

Bure80 said:


> The collocation of the midfield Castro/Weigl/Dahoud is a disaster, You cant win such games if you play incorporeal.




Yeah, they need a real coach who'll play Gotze with Mo & Weigl and give their possession game some semblance of structure


----------



## Bure80

How you can play possession game, if you not good enough at the basics?


----------



## Luigi Habs

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> This is because Zizo bypasses his midfield and just play hoof ball from Marcelo/Carvalh. One reason why Isco can piss on Argentinas midfield but can't get a foothold in Madrid.




Funny that Zidane couldn’t find a spot for any of James or Isco. Basically 2 players that practically played the same position as his.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

So this guy won't even give Gomez a debut?


----------



## Bure80

Happy for Gomez. Not a good day for something you will remember your whole life.


----------



## Live in the Now

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> For real though how did it come to this for Dortmund.
> 
> I wonder if Arsenal B squad can beat them now?




They shouldn't be 6-0 bad, but there's definitely a lack of quality. I expect most Americans wouldn't like to hear this, but Pulisic isn't good enough yet to play this much in attack and a team be successful at the same time. 

Plus players like Schurrle, Schmelzer, and Sahin belong playing for lower table teams at this stage of their career. As for how it came to this specifically, I think buying players who left and weren't great in the hopes that they would return and be as good as they were for Dortmund the first time has a major role to play in it. They've also lost too much quality and not replaced it.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Buying back fan favorites hasn't necessarily been a bad thing for Dortmund. A mixed bag, I'd say. Kagawa and Götze were very good moves; Sahin was a bit of a bust. I suspect it might create a weird dynamic between those returning players and the younger guys on their first tour in Dortmund. 

Cavalier attitude toward letting players go and overconfidence in their replaceability definitely hurt more. You're bound to have off seasons and get it wrong once in a while when there's that much volatility. That said, there are too many quality players from Tuchel's side underperforming badly this year to be a complete coincidence.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

A lot of it is coaching.

You can point the blame at Pulisic, but he certainly is good enough to be playing this much. The problem is that we've had two coaches this season where a number of our key players they have no use for or they can't get the best out of them. Weigl has had a bad season, Pulisic has had a bad season, Dahoud has barely played, why is that? Is it the players? These players have all proven themselves in the past. Or is it the coaching? 

Edit: You could also include someone like Bartra who left midseason, these coaches had no use for him. Zagadou had a good half season, especially for a player his age, and then Stoeger uses him once the second half of the season. Guerreiro has disappeared from the radar. Part of it is injuries, but even when he wasn't injured, he wasn't getting minutes. The talent of the team isn't as bad as they've played. Coaching plays a part.


----------



## cgf

I can't wait for Hecking to get replace


----------



## cgf

Holy f***ing Sommer, Yann just stole one from Mainz.


----------



## cgf

If Drmic could've not been the worst for just a split second in his miserable life, he would've had an open goal with no one within miles of him...

*sigh*


----------



## Bon Esprit

_I leave that here, because it's worth watching and it's kinda funny.
_


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> _I leave that here, because it's worth watching and it's kinda funny.
> _





Kimmich and Werner say almost the exact same thing lol

Klopp in 1991


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

So...

Bayern just won the league.


----------



## HajdukSplit

Koln failing to beat Mainz at home probably means the end for them, Mainz's fixtures are slightly easier while Koln still play Bayern & Schalke but their poor GD will hurt them if they manage to catch up. Big win by Wolfsburg, Freiburg not out of it. Think the current bottom two are done with the playoff spot down to Mainz/Wolfsburg/Freiburg, Hannover almost certainly safe with their win yesterday (35 points is usually enough)


----------



## cgf

The rest of the world is so lucky that we can't just naturalize Raffael and have him start for our NT.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Big Kahuna said:


> So...
> 
> Bayern just won the league.




They won it like 5-6 months ago tbh


----------



## ecemleafs

just tell em that u meant that puli


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I like that Stoeger played Sancho and Gomez today when the match was out of hand. Can't say much else good, but we won, at least.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I like that Stoeger played Sancho and Gomez today when the match was out of hand. Can't say much else good, but we won, at least.




Start of the second half was pretty good. But yeah, another dreadful match really.


----------



## Bure80

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Can't say much else good, but we won, at least.




Sahin still has a great left foot. I saw more good opening passes from him today, as from Weigl the whole year. If he only would be a bit faster.


----------



## Deficient Mode

I knew you'd be in here talking about Sahin. He has had glimpses of that play for a match or two at a time in the past couple years but he hasn't been able to keep it up. Dahoud was their best midfielder to me too.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bure80 said:


> Sahin still has a great left foot. I saw more good opening passes from him today, as from Weigl the whole year. If he only would be a bit faster.




Sahin can still factor in the goals, he just can't move around the field, complete liability because he's so slow.

Weigl is having a bad year, but I don't see how it helps anything to have Sahin play ahead of Weigl. Weigl's in the doghouse of Stoeger as much as any player. Goetze is a close second. Those two are too technical for his liking.

Stoeger played a two striker formation today in disguise. Reus as a #10 when he plays that position is a secondary striker not a playmaker, so it was a two striker look with Reus Jr. coming off the left wing as a third striker. Really not a fan of this type of alignment.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Leverkusen really taking it to Leipzig in Leipzig. Fun match.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Brandt a goal, two assists, and ran interference to draw two defenders to himself on a fourth goal. Love when he plays like this.

Leverkusen up to 4th if this holds.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Leverkusen and Schalke being back to around where they were 5 years ago hopefully bodes well for the quality of the Bundesliga in the future. Those teams have had too much talent to waste away in midtable spots.


----------



## Bure80

Deficient Mode said:


> I knew you'd be in here talking about Sahin. He has had glimpses of that play for a match or two at a time in the past couple years but he hasn't been able to keep it up. Dahoud was their best midfielder to me too.




Not for nothing he was voted as best player of U17 EC 2005. His only problem is the lack of speed.


----------



## cgf

Bure80 said:


> Not for nothing he was voted as best player of U17 EC 2005. His only problem is the lack of speed.




lol wut? Being the best teen almost a decade n a half ago means nothing now. Marko Marin was once a superstar in his age group. But just like Sahin his game had certainly limitations that held him back at the senior level. Sahin was a less physical Granit Xhaka once, now he's even less than that.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> Not for nothing he was voted as best player of U17 EC 2005. His only problem is the lack of speed.




And you think we're living in the past re:Götze...


----------



## Bure80

cgf said:


> lol wut? Being the best teen almost a decade n a half ago means nothing now. Marko Marin was once a superstar in his age group. But just like Sahin his game had certainly limitations that held him back at the senior level. Sahin was a less physical Granit Xhaka once, now he's even less than that.




Well he was voted as Bundesliga player of the season at Dortmunds first title. Isnt that senior level? Yes he has some limitations like Götze. Both had the talent to be world class. Both are far away from that now. With a player like prime Sven Bender, maybe Sahin still can shine because of his brain and incredible left foot.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Definitely still on the list


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Nuri should go to MLS or Qatar or one of those retirement leagues


----------



## Bure80

I would sell Weigl and keep Sahin. You can get more for Weigl and its never a mistake to have some experiennce in the team. On good days like Sunday he still can be Dortmunds best player.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> Well he was voted as Bundesliga player of the season at Dortmunds first title. Isnt that senior level? Yes he has some limitations like Götze. Both had the talent to be world class. Both are far away from that now. With a player like prime Sven Bender, maybe Sahin still can shine because of his brain and incredible left foot.




His brain is way less remarkable than his left foot.


Bure80 said:


> I would sell Weigl and keep Sahin. You can get more for Weigl and its never a mistake to have some experiennce in the team. On good days like Sunday he still can be Dortmunds best player.




Yikes. Sahin has been back in Dortmund for almost 4 years and you could probably count his good days in that period on one hand. He's 29 to boot. If they sell Weigl they will absolutely need to buy a new defensive midfielder.


----------



## Bure80

I would try to sell Toljan, Weigl, Castro, Rode, Götze, Schürrle


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

We need a new defensive midfielder, regardless. If Weigl is sold, it needs to be a starter. If Weigl isn't sold, it needs to be a back up.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bure80 said:


> I would try to sell Toljan, Weigl, Castro, Rode, Götze, Schürrle




I wouldn't sell Toljan so quickly. His play has gotten slightly better, and he can play both full-back spots, valuable back up.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> I would try to sell Toljan, Weigl, Castro, Rode, Götze, Schürrle




Putting Götze and Weigl in the same breath as the others is unimaginable to me


----------



## Bure80

Deficient Mode said:


> His brain is way less remarkable than his left foot..




For his passes. he needs to see opens rooms. 


If they sell Weigl they will absolutely need to buy a new defensive midfielder.[/QUOTE]

They should i think defensive and central midfield was Dortmunds biggest weakness this season.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> For his passes. he needs to see opens rooms.
> 
> They should i think defensive and central midfield was Dortmunds biggest weakness this season.




His vision isn't that incredible. And there are a lot of other aspects to football decision-making where he is poor or inconsistent. 

The problems in central midfield stem in large part from overplaying Sahin and Castro. And coaching was the biggest issue with this team by far.


----------



## cgf

Sell Weigl & Nuri, buy Geiger, and let Watzke celebrate the profit.

Boom


----------



## Bure80

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I wouldn't sell Toljan so quickly. His play has gotten slightly better, and he can play both full-back spots, valuable back up.




I hope to see Weiser next year in blackyellow and a less injured Guerreiro.

Weiser/Pisczek and Guerreiro/Schmelzer should be enough


----------



## Bure80

cgf said:


> Sell Weigl & Nuri, buy Geiger, and let Watzke celebrate the profit.
> 
> Boom




Sell Watzke too


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

This seems bad. Is it bad?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> This seems bad. Is it bad?





Just win, baby!


----------



## Ivan13

If someone told me three years ago that Niko Kovač will be coaching Bayern in 2018 I'd tell him he is stark raving mad.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Ivan13 said:


> If someone told me three years ago that Niko Kovač will be coaching Bayern in 2018 I'd tell him he is stark raving mad.




That's correct. But even a few weeks ago (when Tuchel was still on the market) it was impossible to imagine.


----------



## cgf

A few weeks ago? Even now it makes so little sense that knowledgeable fans are forced to come up with insane conspiracy theories to justify such an obviously horrible hire.


----------



## Ivan13

cgf said:


> A few weeks ago? Even now it makes so little sense that knowledgeable fans are forced to come up with insane conspiracy theories to justify such an obviously horrible hire.



Brazzo wanted to throw something his homeboy's way.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

He's not a bad manager, but he's not better than Tuchel or Nagelsmann.


----------



## cgf

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> He's not a bad manager, but he's not better than Tuchel or Nagelsmann.




Nah, he's bad.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Mainz-Freiburg on Monday might be a good one. What a race between HSV and Fc for not finishing last.


----------



## cgf

lol this interview with Salihamidzic

'no signing Kovac wasn't totally slapdash and pulled right out of Uli's ass'


----------



## cgf

HOLY **** DRMIC WASN'T USELESS!!!


----------



## cgf

That's what happens every time you bunker. f***ing Hecking, are you ever going to learn?

*sigh* At least now they'll have to start playing again.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> *sigh* At least now they'll have to start playing again.




Or will they???


----------



## cgf

Well if it gets Hecking replaced, I'm down with it


----------



## Savant

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> He's not a bad manager, but he's not better than Tuchel or Nagelsmann.



We know Tuchel is going to PSG. Does this mean Nagelsmann is nailed on for Dortmund? And Hasenhuttl is staying?

Not saying Kovac is bad either but really strange timing


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Savant said:


> We know Tuchel is going to PSG. Does this mean Nagelsmann is nailed on for Dortmund? And Hasenhuttl is staying?
> 
> Not saying Kovac is bad either but really strange timing




I think Nagelsmann is choice 1, Favre is choice 2.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Well if it gets Hecking replaced, I'm down with it




Always tough when your team plays the best team in the league

At least the Avs aren'.....

Oh wait.



Savant said:


> We know Tuchel is going to PSG. Does this mean Nagelsmann is nailed on for Dortmund? And Hasenhuttl is staying?
> 
> Not saying Kovac is bad either but really strange timing




Hope so.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Always tough when your team plays the best team in the league
> 
> At least the Avs aren'.....
> 
> Oh wait.
> 
> 
> 
> Hope so.




Psh, Girard is out for this game to, the avs have got this


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> Psh, Girard is out for this game to, the avs have got this




I thought Ceremony and the other Duchene dead-enders were the only ones who didn't like him


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> I thought Ceremony and the other Duchene dead-enders were the only ones who didn't like him




? Everyone loves Samwise. He's special. But winning this game with him out as well and Bernier a game-time decision, would be so Avs


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> ? Everyone loves Samwise. He's special. But winning this game with him out as well and Bernier a game-time decision, would be so Avs




"Girard could win ten consecutive Conn Smythes and give me his bonuses every year, I'd still hate him." - Ceremony


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> "Girard could win ten consecutive Conn Smythes and give me his bonuses every year, I'd still hate him." - Ceremony




lol well, we do have some...unique...fans on HFavs


----------



## Bure80

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I think Nagelsmann is choice 1, Favre is choice 2.




Im not for Nagelsmann. He is born near Munich and its just a question of time till he signs there.
I would like someone from the BVB Family. Paulo Sousa for example.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bure80 said:


> Im not for Nagelsmann. *He is born near Munich and its just a question of time till he signs there.*
> I would like someone from the BVB Family. Paulo Sousa for example.




What a terrible outlook. I don't think he wanted to come to Dortmund, though. Can't blame him either.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Translation: no one with a modicum of sense, ambition, and a future wants to be stuck between our overgrown baby veteran players and clueless, self-righteous chief executive. Actually losing by 6 goals the one time you face a good team is acceptable.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bure80 said:


> Im not for Nagelsmann. He is born near Munich and its just a question of time till he signs there.
> I would like someone from the BVB Family. Paulo Sousa for example.




You probably aren't wrong about Nagelsmann, but he's not going to be at the club for 10 seasons. If he has 3 or 4 good seasons, that would be excellent.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Replace Schmelzer. This is not new. Should've happened last offseason.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Omg this defence is a mess.

Our best defender is the yellow card.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> You probably aren't wrong about Nagelsmann, but he's not going to be at the club for 10 seasons. If he has 3 or 4 good seasons, that would be excellent.




If they can find someone they like this summer, they'll have had 3 coaches come and go in 3 years. 3 or 4 good seasons would be a miracle.


----------



## Power Man

Naldooooooooo


----------



## Deficient Mode

Naldo set piece god

Also, that play to tee it up a couple meters further right to adjust the angle is very common and Dortmund were completely unprepared for it. Wall should have done better.


----------



## Savant

Probable late to the party on this but why does Stoger has a 9 on his shirt.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> If they can find someone they like this summer, they'll have had 3 coaches come and go in 3 years. 3 or 4 good seasons would be a miracle.




I'm assuming that if we get a quality coach, that guy won't be sacked midseason. Look at the prior two coaches to this season. Tuchel had two good seasons, and would've stayed longer if it wasn't for Watzke. Klopp stayed for 7 years. I think it's reasonable to expect 3-4 years from Nagelsmann.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

What an unlikable bunch this team is this season. Rotten all around.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Well, at least Watzke and Zorc won't be able to use the "didn't finish below or lose to Schalke" line to explain why they will keep Stöger on past this season.



Savant said:


> Probable late to the party on this but why does Stoger has a 9 on his shirt.




He's just wearing one of the mass-produced Puma track jackets. Not customized or anything. Think the 9 refers to the year in which the club was founded, 1909. Usually it's 09 tho so idk.

Better question would be what Tedesco is thinking with his baby blue Lacoste polo, jeans, and white sneaker combo. Minter.



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I'm assuming that if we get a quality coach, that guy won't be sacked midseason. Look at the prior two coaches to this season. Tuchel had two good seasons, and would've stayed longer if it wasn't for Watzke. Klopp stayed for 7 years. I think it's reasonable to expect 3-4 years from Nagelsmann.




Klopp was Klopp and after he left the new coach would have far less authority than Watzke and the likes of Sahin and Schmelzer. Doubt any new coach will last anywhere near that long unless Watzke and the veterans are removed.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

At the very least, I'd strip Schmelzer of the captaincy. Make Reus the captain. If Schmelzer doesn't like that, hit the road. He should have to earn his place next season.

Sahin has to go. His presence hurts the team because of his "influence", whether he plays or not.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> At the very least, I'd strip Schmelzer of the captaincy. Make Reus the captain. If Schmelzer doesn't like that, hit the road. He should have to earn his place next season.
> 
> Sahin has to go. His presence hurts the team because of his "influence", whether he plays or not.




Don't want Reus as captain either. Constantly injured, doesn't seem like much of a leader or whatever. Just forgo the armband for a year. None of the veteran players deserve it; none of the young players have been around long enough.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Don't want Reus as captain either. Constantly injured, doesn't seem like much of a leader or whatever. Just forgo the armband for a year. None of the veteran players deserve it; none of the young players have been around long enough.




That's kind of the problem. I was thinking about who should be captain and I couldn't think of any good choices. I think you may be right, go without a "captain" and have someone like Reus, Goetze, Toprak wearing it during games.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> That's kind of the problem. I was thinking about who should be captain and I couldn't think of any good choices. I think you may be right, go without a "captain" and have someone like Reus, Goetze, Toprak wearing it during games.




Players can figure out their own leaders. A captain is mostly for the fans I think. If Schmelzer is sold, just don't "appoint" a captain and yeah, rotate between a few guys.


----------



## cgf

Just give it to Geiger if you can get him to replace Weigl


----------



## Albatros

German football #MeToo continues, at some not so distant point these cases are going to lead to political actionism:

Frau im Fußball-Sonderzug missbraucht - Großeinsatz


----------



## Bon Esprit

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I think Nagelsmann is choice 1, Favre is choice 2.



Nagelsmann said on SkyTalk today that he won't be leaving Hoffenheim this or next season. He has an out clause after next season. Until then he will stay and he is fine with it. That is a statement. No Nagelsmann for Dortmund in 18/19.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> German football #MeToo continues, at some not so distant point these cases are going to lead to political actionism:
> 
> Frau im Fußball-Sonderzug missbraucht - Großeinsatz



I read that. too. A damn shame if true.


----------



## Cassano




----------



## Bon Esprit

And Götze played 4 mins in 2 games.


----------



## Deficient Mode

All Might said:


>





Ankle not leg from what I've read and seen. 



Bon Esprit said:


> And Götze played 4 mins in 2 games.




He probably should be playing more...


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

All Might said:


>





I think this is speculation. SportBild reported that it's what is suspected, but then I also saw reports saying that he hasn't yet gotten the requisite tests on his ankle to determine so.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Got outscored 8-0 by Schalke and Bayern, played terrible football even against terrible teams, got embarrassed in the Europa League, benches the team's best players.... Hmm yeah, let's pretend like there is still some expectation that he can meet to stay. Pathetic.


----------



## Hadoop

Looking like Schalke will finish ahead of BvB this season for the first time is what seems like forever. If the table stays like this good for them.


----------



## cgf

Hadoop said:


> Looking like Schalke will finish ahead of BvB this season for the first time is what seems like forever. If the table stays like this good for them.




That's what Watzke deserves


----------



## Havre

As if Fjortoft knows anything.


----------



## Bon Esprit

BvB might be buying Jonas Hector for 8mil From Köln Bild says.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bon Esprit said:


> BvB might be buying Jonas Hector for 8mil From Köln Bild says.




I think it's more likely if Stoeger stays, which he shouldn't. But even if he doesn't, LB has been a problem all season. 8M is nothing.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I think this is speculation. SportBild reported that it's what is suspected, but then I also saw reports saying that he hasn't yet gotten the requisite tests on his ankle to determine so.



Focus reports he indeed hurt his ankle, out for the season, not WC.


----------



## Theokritos

Deficient Mode said:


> Got outscored 8-0 by Schalke and Bayern, played terrible football even against terrible teams, got embarrassed in the Europa League, benches the team's best players.... Hmm yeah, let's pretend like there is still some expectation that he can meet to stay. Pathetic.





So Stöger only wants to stay if "the expectations get an adjustment" – an adjustment to what, his coaching level? Then the expectations should be that Dortmund won't even play in the Europa League next season... No way. He is gone for sure.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> BvB might be buying Jonas Hector for 8mil From Köln Bild says.




Not the worst move. Could be good. 



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I think it's more likely if Stoeger stays, which he shouldn't. But even if he doesn't, LB has been a problem all season. 8M is nothing.




But yeah, much rather move on from Stöger than get Hector.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Theokritos said:


> So Stöger only wants to stay if "the expectations get an adjustment" – an adjustment to what, his coaching level? Then the expectations should be that Dortmund won't even play in the Europa League next season... No way. He is gone for sure.




I'm not sure. If Favre says no - and for his own sanity, he should - they might stick with Stöger.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> But yeah, much rather move on from Stöger than get Hector.




The position I'm worried about towards the summer window is keeper. Buerki has done okay in the Bundesliga this season, but has been a complete liability in European matches. If you look around Germany, there aren't any immediate replacements for him. And also looking around Europe, still not that many good replacements. It might take some creativity to get a good keeper in this summer. I hope they don't make the very easy move and bring in Horn.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> The position I'm worried about towards the summer window is keeper. Buerki has done okay in the Bundesliga this season, but has been a complete liability in European matches. If you look around Germany, there aren't any immediate replacements for him. And also looking around Europe, still not that many good replacements. It might take some creativity to get a good keeper in this summer. I hope they don't make the very easy move and bring in Horn.




I don't think there is really that much of a split in what a goalie needs to do between Bundesliga and European matches. Like, is there any real difference to which we could plausibly point to explain why the extremely avoidable flubs came in Europe and not domestic play? Match start times messing with his internal clock?

I don't think they're doing anything in Europe next year anyway tbh. Even with Favre over Stöger.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> I'm not sure. If Favre says no - and for his own sanity, he should - they might stick with Stöger.



Let's be realistic here. When Dortmund fired Bosz Stöger was the best available. Both knew it was until the end of the season unless BvB overachieve. That's why the contract Stöger got is until season's end. At best they'll finish in the top 4. So mission accomplished. Not more.

As a neutal I see it that way: Dortmund is good at selling very good players (Lewa, Gündogan etc) but very poor at replacing them (How is Yarmolenko doing these days?). This has nothing to do with Stöger, but everybody was seeing it from the start that he doesn't fit there.
The problem are Watzke and Zorc. They did good in the past, now no so much. Almost everything from top to bottom needs to change IMO.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> I don't think there is really that much of a split in what a goalie needs to do between Bundesliga and European matches. Like, is there any real difference to which we could plausibly point to explain why the extremely avoidable flubs came in Europe and not domestic play? Match start times messing with his internal clock?
> 
> I don't think they're doing anything in Europe next year anyway tbh. Even with Favre over Stöger.




Could be Rose instead.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Let's be realistic here. When Dortmund fired Bosz Stöger was the best available. Both knew it was until the end of the season unless BvB overachieve. That's why the contract Stöger got is until season's end. At best they'll finish in the top 4. So mission accomplished. Not more.
> 
> As a neutal I see it that way: Dortmund is good at selling very good players (Lewa, Gündogan etc) but very poor at replacing them (How is Yarmolenko doing these days?). This has nothing to do with Stöger, but everybody was seeing it from the start that he doesn't fit there.
> The problem are Watzke and Zorc. They did good in the past, now no so much. Almost everything from top to bottom needs to change IMO.




Do you think they just got Lewandowski and Gündogan in a vacuum? Gündogan was their big summer midfield purchase the year they sold Sahin. They bought Lewandowski the same summer they sold Valdez (???) I believe. Dortmund have a great success rate on replacing players; they just have to do it way too often.

Stöger was the best coach available in the middle of the season, but he has done a terrible job and played terrible football with the second most talented roster in the league. The stat Pavel posted a few days ago about how they barely spend any more time in the lead than behind says a lot. He did fine salvaging a flailing team and getting results against bad teams, but they aren't Real Madrid, and that kind of moments of individual magic football isn't going to work for them long term. I don't know why you have some weird affection for him as a person, but I don't find him at all endearing either.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> Do you think they just got Lewandowski and Gündogan in a vacuum? Gündogan was their big summer midfield purchase the year they sold Sahin. They bought Lewandowski the same summer they sold Valdez (???) I believe. Dortmund have a great success rate on replacing players; they just have to do it way too often.
> 
> That happened years ago! Dortmund didn't replace Hummels, Gündogan, Auba etc. properly.
> 
> Stöger was the best coach available in the middle of the season, but he has done a terrible job and played terrible football with the second most talented roster in the league. The stat Pavel posted a few days ago about how they barely spend any more time in the lead than behind says a lot. He did fine salvaging a flailing team and getting results against bad teams, but they aren't Real Madrid, and that kind of moments of individual magic football isn't going to work for them long term. I don't know why you have some weird affection for him as a person, but I don't find him at all endearing either.




The second most talented roster? I don't think so. Dortmund has a lot of talented indians but no chief. Some of their players will be good on a working team.

I wouldn't be surprised no Dortmund player makes the German NT this WC. I guess only Reus has an outsider chance. Götze, Schürrle, Schmelzer or Weigl are no NT material today.
On top of that comes Stöger. Bad team with no identity and a coach that might be able to coach Wolfsburg or another noname with no expectations.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> The second most talented roster? I don't think so. Dortmund has a lot of talented indians but no chief. Some of their players will be good on a working team.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised no Dortmund player makes the German NT this WC. I guess only Reus has an outsider chance. Götze, Schürrle, Schmelzer or Weigl are no NT material today.
> On top of that comes Stöger. Bad team with no identity and a coach that might be able to coach Wolfsburg or another noname with no expectations.




Reminder that you were the guy who said Reus was the only star on the team the year before they finished 18 points ahead of third place. You see the players declining because the team isn't functioning and you attribute it to the players themselves rather than the coach. Bad team my ass.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Could be Rose instead.





He's part of the Klopp family so I guess he's part of the Dortmund family by extension


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> Reminder that you were the guy who said Reus was the only star on the team the year before they finished 18 points ahead of third place. You see the players declining because the team isn't functioning and you attribute it to the players themselves rather than the coach. Bad team my ass.



In 15/16 they had Hummels and Gündogan IIRC. So I doubt I ever said that. If you can show me the post I stand corrected and apologize. Overall they had a better team back then.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> In 15/16 they had Hummels and Gündogan IIRC. So I doubt I ever said that. If you can show me the post I stand corrected and apologize. Overall they had a better team back then.




You said it around the time of the Pokal final in 2015. Too bad this forum's history before October 2015 was deleted. Fortunately I have a long memory.

Hummels got a ton of criticism in 2015 as not a captain, big cause of Dortmund's decline, etc. Then of course Tuchel came in the next year and he was a key piece and everyone thought he was good again. The talent doesn't go away when the team is struggling as a whole. Not in one year for a player in the prime of his career.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> You said it around the time of the Pokal final in 2015. Too bad this forum's history before October 2015 was deleted. Fortunately I have a long memory.
> 
> Hummels got a ton of criticism in 2015 as not a captain, big cause of Dortmund's decline, etc. Then of course Tuchel came in the next year and he was a key piece and everyone thought he was good again. The talent doesn't go away when the team is struggling as a whole. Not in one year for a player in the prime of his career.



Okay, I believe it when you say it. We both have beter things to do . Nonethless leaders like Hummels and today's Gündogan is what Dortmund needs. BvB has nothing comparable today. Reus is a special player who doesn't need a leader. Too bad he is always injured.


----------



## Bon Esprit

So after 30 gp we have 3 teams with 30 points battling relegation. Hannover should be safe (I hope so) and HSV and Köln might get relegated.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Okay, I believe it when you say it. We both have beter things to do . Nonethless leaders like Hummels and today's Gündogan is what Dortmund needs. BvB has nothing comparable today. Reus is a special player who doesn't need a leader. Too bad he is always injured.




BVB have a number of special players. And they'll probably finish a close third or perhaps fourth again despite playing an extra 10 European matches to wear them out compared to the second team... as happened last year. Many people said Leipzig were more talented last year in the same situation... then look where they end up when they have the same European load as Dortmund.

I don't see how you can say that Dortmund don't have the second best roster in Germany and should be well ahead of the third team if their players are clicking but to each their own.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Deficient Mode said:


> You said it around the time of the Pokal final in 2015. *Too bad this forum's history before October 2015 was deleted. *Fortunately I have a long memory.




Gunna need you to elaborate on this point.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bon Esprit said:


> I wouldn't be surprised no Dortmund player makes the German NT this WC. I guess only Reus has an outsider chance. Götze, Schürrle, Schmelzer or Weigl are no NT material today. On top of that comes Stöger. Bad team with no identity and a coach that might be able to coach Wolfsburg or another noname with no expectations.




Reus, Weigl and Goetze are all NT players. Weigl is having a bad season, doesn't make him a bad player. I also don't think he's been helped by either manager Dortmund has had this season. Goetze has had a somewhat bad second half of the season after being the best player on the team the first half of the season. He was doing great under Bosz, Stoeger has had little use for him. I don't think your assessment on him is fair. And we should also factor in that he's rarely playing now, which is ridiculous.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Reus, Weigl and Goetze are all NT players. Weigl is having a bad season, doesn't make him a bad player. I also don't think he's been helped by either manager Dortmund has had this season. Goetze has had a somewhat bad second half of the season after being the best player on the team the first half of the season. He was doing great under Bosz, Stoeger has had little use for him. I don't think your assessment on him is fair. And we should also factor in that he's rarely playing now, which is ridiculous.



1, I didn't say Weigl or Goetze are bad players. I said RIGHT NOW they aren't good enough for NT and I wouldn't be surprised if no BvB player is on our WC roster.
2. IMO Goetze still has severe health issues nobody talks about. 
3. Bild today reports Stöger's contract won't be extended, so a new coach plus new players might change the direction of the team.


----------



## Deficient Mode

I've been thinking about it and Marco Rose would be a similar choice to Bosz: hipster darling who rose to prominence and quickly made up ground in his coaching candidacy over Favre (again the favorite) with an excellent Europa League campaign. His teams are far less naive and less likely to be exploited in the counter-heavy Bundesliga, though.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Rose is under contract until June 2019 and Bild says Salzburg won't let him leave this smmer. If I was Dortmund I would play it save and try to get Favre. He's a good coach, knows the Bundesliga very well and is well respected.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bon Esprit said:


> 1, I didn't say Weigl or Goetze are bad players. I said RIGHT NOW they aren't good enough for NT and I wouldn't be surprised if no BvB player is on our WC roster.
> 2. IMO Goetze still has severe health issues nobody talks about.
> 3. Bild today reports Stöger's contract won't be extended, so a new coach plus new players might change the direction of the team.




I think it would be too much of a reaction to form the last few months to not include Goetze. Not every player at the WC will have played well in the few months before the tournament. It doesn't mean they will be left out. As far as I'm concerned, Goetze's first half of the season should've made him a lock for a spot. And there's also the fact that he won the team the WC in 2014, which normally would at least help his case. 

Weigl has been bad all season and isn't anywhere near as established as Goetze, so I don't even really disagree that he probably will/should miss the WC team.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Rose is under contract until June 2019 and Bild says Salzburg won't let him leave this smmer. If I was Dortmund I would play it save and try to get Favre. He's a good coach, knows the Bundesliga very well and is well respected.




What's the point of playing it safe? They need to hit a home run with their coaching decision to have a chance to win anything.



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I think it would be too much of a reaction to form the last few months to not include Goetze. Not every player at the WC will have played well in the few months before the tournament. It doesn't mean they will be left out. As far as I'm concerned, Goetze's first half of the season should've made him a lock for a spot. And there's also the fact that he won the team the WC in 2014, which normally would at least help his case.
> 
> Weigl has been bad all season and isn't anywhere near as established as Goetze, so I don't even really disagree that he probably will/should miss the WC team.




I highly doubt Löw won't include Götze.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> What's the point of playing it safe? They need to hit a home run with their coaching decision to have a chance to win anything.
> 
> 
> 
> I highly doubt Löw won't include Götze.



Favre is an estblished coach who s respected for many years. Rose took over Salzburg in 2017. Taking Favre over Rose is playing it safe. Esp. since Rose is not on the market.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Favre is an estblished coach who s respected for many years. Rose took over Salzburg in 2017. Taking Favre over Rose is playing it safe. Esp. since Rose is not on the market.




All of which I understand; I'm saying Dortmund need to NOT play it safe.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Thoughts on the Hector to BVB rumor?


----------



## Deficient Mode

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Thoughts on the Hector to BVB rumor?




He's kind of old and they need more help on the right side but nothing wrong with it at that price


----------



## Deficient Mode

And that right side help could come in the form of Weiser:



Source is only Sport Bild but still. He's pretty high up on my most wanted list. 12M is a steal.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> He's kind of old and they need more help on the right side but nothing wrong with it at that price



Jonas Hector was born in 1990, so he's 27. If that is old what is Thomas Müller then?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> And that right side help could come in the form of Weiser:
> 
> 
> 
> Source is only Sport Bild but still. He's pretty high up on my most wanted list. 12M is a steal.





There was a conflicting report a few hours later from WAZ saying he's no longer under transfer consideration because there are concerns about his defending. 

Hard to know what to believe.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Jonas Hector was born in 1990, so he's 27. If that is old what is Thomas Müller then?




Müller is also rather old for a club like Dortmund to sign. A player's best years are likely behind him at 28 - especially for a full back. Pisczczek for instance has declined sharply since he turned 28.



Pavel Buchnevich said:


> There was a conflicting report a few hours later from WAZ saying he's no longer under transfer consideration because there are concerns about his defending.
> 
> Hard to know what to believe.




Probably WAZ sadly. Anything over Sport Bild.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> Müller is also rather old for a club like Dortmund to sign. A player's best years are likely behind him at 28 - especially for a full back. Pisczczek for instance has declined sharply since he turned 28.




Yeah, right and no team would ever sign or trade for mummies like Hummels, Boateng or Lewandowski. Keep on impressing BvB fanboys. I'm done here. LOL.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Yeah, right and no team would ever sign or trade for mummies like Hummels, Boateng or Lewandowski. Keep on impressing BvB fanboys. I'm done here. LOL.




Yikes. Extremely rich teams that can pay a premium for immediate improvement might. Hector is nowhere near the class of those players and plays a position where players tend not to age as well. Don't say Lahm either. Again, different class of player entirely, and he was able to age well because of his intelligence in a way that Hector wouldn't.


----------



## Deficient Mode

I didn't say they shouldn't sign him either. Just that having a player ages 28-31 instead of 24-27 is a drawback of the deal.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> Yikes. Extremely rich teams that can pay a premium for immediate improvement might. Hector is nowhere near the class of those players and plays a position where players tend not to age as well. Don't say Lahm either. Again, different class of player entirely, and he was able to age well because of his intelligence in a way that Hector wouldn't.




Last post with you here

Do you really think Dortmund is "extremly" rich? They are top 4 or 5 in Germany moneywise. Not to mention all those Emirates sponsored clubs, the top Spanish or EPLs in Europe. 
Very good players are leaving Dortmund, Do I really have to mention the players they have lost over the yearrs? They don't attract those players. 
Schalke and Heidel seem to cure their fanbase from being delusional. Dortmund fans seem to have a long way to go.

Borussia Dortmund is nothing special. Maybe their fans can sing best, but that's it.

And now I'm out until this forum becomes a Bundesliga forum again.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Last post with you here
> 
> Do you really think Dortmund is "extremly" rich? They are top 4 or 5 in Germany moneywise. Not to mention all those Emirates sponsored clubs, the top Spanish or EPLs in Europe.
> Very good players are leaving Dortmund, Do I really have to mention the players they have lost over the yearrs? They don't attract those players.
> Schalke and Heidel seem to cure their fanbase from being delusional. Dortmund fans seem to have a long way to go.
> 
> Borussia Dortmund is nothing special. Maybe their fans can sing best, but that's it.
> 
> And now I'm out until this forum becomes a Bundesliga forum again.




Holy crap. Learn to read. I'm contrasting "extremely rich clubs" to Dortmund when I say "Müller is also rather old for a club like Dortmund to sign." The former clubs can afford to pay fees for established world class players, even if they don't get their prime years. Dortmund can't. 

Dortmund are the clear #2 in Germany money-wise, too. If you think they're "top 4 or 5" you haven't looked at or haven't understood the numbers.

So long.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Other problem with older players is that you're expected to raise their wages every new contract even when their play merits a cut:


----------



## Deficient Mode

So Kovac vs Bayern in the final? That should be interesting.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Kicker also says Weiser will go to Leverkusen and not Dortmund. Sigh.

Also 

If Dortmund let go of Götze they're pretty stupid. No surprise to see all the 18 year olds on that list. As with Merino, they just saw an opportunity to make a profit off cheap talented kids and aren't going to give them a chance to develop.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Other problem with older players is that you're expected to raise their wages every new contract even when their play merits a cut:





Why even offer him an extension?

Of that list, is it saying that those players are players who could transfer or players who the club wants to get rid of? There's a difference between the two. I have no clue why we'd want to get rid of Goetze, Sancho, Zagadou, Weigl.


----------



## Bure80

Good list. Only Sancho and maybe Guerreiro are dubious. Get rid of Weigl and Götze as long as you get a good return. Götze doesnt look like a football player anymore. Maybe he should try weightlifting.


----------



## cgf

lol at least you're leaning into it and embracing the hot-take life


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> lol at least you're leaning into it and embracing the hot-take life




As if we don't have an _Umbruch _every summer already, and that isn't part of the problem. I totally relish every time my club sells a rare talent like Weigl for big money, which they always use to its best effect. Look how well that worked out with Dembele! 

I can't wait until young talented players see BVB for what it is: an asset-flipping scheme rather than a club that will develop them. Then they'll really be screwed.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

If Dortmund think they're above signing mid to late 20s solid Bundesliga players because they're 'too old', they won't win anything again any time soon.

Dortmund can't afford the hottest 20-25 age group players who are already contributors at an elite level, so you end up signing kids and 'players with potential'..some of whom pan out, some of whom don't, all of whom won't make for a good enough team to challenge for the BuLi or in Europe.


----------



## Cassano

I will gladly take Guerreiro, Weigl and Sancho at Arsenal. TBH whichever team signs Tuchel will be a lock to get Weigl IMO. The way he's being victimized is bizarre.


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> If Dortmund think they're above signing mid to late 20s solid Bundesliga players because they're 'too old', they won't win anything again any time soon.
> 
> Dortmund can't afford the hottest 20-25 age group players who are already contributors at an elite level, so you end up signing kids and 'players with potential'..some of whom pan out, some of whom don't, all of whom won't make for a good enough team to challenge for the BuLi or in Europe.




Who said anything about them being above signing players in their late 20s? As I clarified above, all I said was that it was a negative aspect of the deal. Hector was never too good for Dortmund at any point in his career. Otherwise he wouldn't have spent his best years at freaking Köln.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Leipzig lost to Leverkusen and Marseille by three goals, and are currently down three to Hoffenheim, who are really creeping up on the top 4 in a hurry. This would make 18 points in their last 8 matches.

If Dortmund lose or draw today vs. Leverkusen, Hoffenheim could win out and take the fourth spot with the match vs. Dortmund on the final day.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Ideally this group would play 3 at the back but somehow I doubt that's what Stöger has in mind. Not a fan of Götze+Weigl with no Dahoud.


----------



## HajdukSplit

Hamburg stay alive, probably need to run the table though and their next two matches are away from home


----------



## Deficient Mode

HajdukSplit said:


> Hamburg stay alive, probably need to run the table though and their next two matches are away from home




They're definitely gonna find a way to do it. Just watch.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Götze is soooo good. Great start for Dortmund.


----------



## ecemleafs

puli running riot so far. fun attacking play from sancho, puli, reus, phillip, gotze.


----------



## ecemleafs

Sancho looking very good too.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Toprak wow what a pass

And the strike by Reus

Offside tho RIP


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Best half we've played under Stoeger?


----------



## Savant

Pulisic best player in the field


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Best half we've played under Stoeger?




Pretty easily



Savant said:


> Pulisic best player in the field




IDK. A lot of highlights. Götze and Akanji stand out to me as well.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Götze stand out to me as well.




Couldn't be. Biceps are too big.


----------



## Savant

@Deficient Mode I'm just glad in watching this game instead of the other one that's on

Easiest decision of my day.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> @Deficient Mode I'm just glad in watching this game instead of the other one that's on
> 
> Easiest decision of my day.




Rare occasion when watching Dortmund turned out to be the right decision this year.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Savant said:


> @Deficient Mode I'm just glad in watching this game instead of the other one that's on
> 
> Easiest decision of my day.




Shestyorkin is pitching a shutout against Finland. You should be watching that instead.


----------



## Savant

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Shestyorkin is pitching a shutout against Finland. You should be watching that instead.



Ooooooooo


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> Rare occasion when watching Dortmund turned out to be the right decision this year.



You also couldn't pay me to watch my two least favorite PL teams play each other.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> You also couldn't pay me to watch my two least favorite PL teams play each other.




Tottenham is in your bottom 2? Seems unusual for a Liverpool fan.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Sancho oh my goodness

Götze needed to shoot it on the first touch


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I didn't realize that Schmelzer was completely dropped from the squad today. I thought he must've been injured. Good call by Stoeger.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Where was this ball movement and confidence in possession the last 6 months? Excellent play.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Remember how Kicker said like three days ago that Sancho was on the list of players whom Dortmund would completely willingly let leave?


----------



## Deficient Mode




----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Akanji has been excellent.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Another assist for Sancho. Should be starting every match now.


----------



## Deficient Mode

English commentator asking how you could not take Reus to the World Cup but saying Götze hasn't been good enough.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Why did this coach bring on a fifth defender when we are 4-0 up but not bring on Gomez?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> English commentator asking how you could not take Reus to the World Cup but saying Götze hasn't been good enough.




They just read the talking points in the media. They don't study the situations well enough to make an informed opinion.


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> Tottenham is in your bottom 2? Seems unusual for a Liverpool fan.



I can't stand them. They were the biggest beneficiary of Liverpool's domestic struggles. Signed a ton of Liverpool targets using the "we have London" card, despite the fact that they haven't won anything since god knows. Not to mention that they are the Media and FA darling and they are historically the third best team in the City. Especially in USA they are the hipster bandwagon team for PL. 

So yeah not my favorite.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Why did this coach bring on a fifth defender when we are 4-0 up but not bring on Gomez?




Calma calma


----------



## Deficient Mode

Going to be much trickier for Hoffenheim to get top 4 now. Leverkusen only two points ahead of them but have three highly winnable matches vs. Hannover, Stuttgart, and Bremen left. 



Savant said:


> I can't stand them. They were the biggest beneficiary of Liverpool's domestic struggles. Signed a ton of Liverpool targets using the "we have London" card, despite the fact that they haven't won anything since god knows. Not to mention that they are the Media and FA darling and they are historically the third best team in the City. *Especially in USA they are the hipster bandwagon team for PL. *
> 
> So yeah not my favorite.




This was sort of the part I suspected haha.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Savant said:


> FA darling


----------



## Savant

Big Kahuna said:


>



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BxAB&usg=AOvVaw0oabPIsistEiDpJ0gJ-ZLx&ampcf=1


----------



## Cassano

Sancho is amazing. Best English U-20 talent atm imo.



Savant said:


> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BxAB&usg=AOvVaw0oabPIsistEiDpJ0gJ-ZLx&ampcf=1



Can you really hate on him for doing that when it was basically Gerrard's whole career. (Ie: the Stoke defenders giving up on Gerrard's last goal for example)


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

All Might said:


> Sancho is amazing. Best English U-20 talent atm imo.




Either him or Foden.


----------



## Live in the Now

All Might said:


> Sancho is amazing. Best English U-20 talent atm imo.






Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Either him or Foden.




Lol.


----------



## Cassano

Live in the Now said:


> Lol.



Can't speak for Foden, but fair enough if you think TAA is better. Sancho was the best player in the U-17 tournament by far though and has 2 less development years on him. We'll see where he is at in 2020, but I expect a great player in there.


----------



## Live in the Now

All Might said:


> Can't speak for Foden, but fair enough if you think TAA is better. Sancho was the best player in the U-17 tournament by far though and has 2 less development years on him. We'll see where he is at in 2020, but I expect a great player in there.




I have to default to what I've said about this subject before. Sancho and Foden don't play enough. I have said before that I think Sancho is a huge talent, but I was also the guy saying TAA was better than Gomez and Woodburn even though those two guys were playing more than him. I guess it's just my thing now. TAA also does play regularly for the better team and better manager it should be said, and that's going to have a big part to play in his development. Whereas if Sancho was playing for a manager like that, who knows?

That being said when Pulisic was struggling earlier this season, Sancho could and maybe should have played more.


----------



## Pouchkine

So who will take the 4th spot? Hoffenheim has any chance? Who do you want in the last European places?


----------



## Cassano

Live in the Now said:


> I have to default to what I've said about this subject before. Sancho and Foden don't play enough. I have said before that I think Sancho is a huge talent, but I was also the guy saying TAA was better than Gomez and Woodburn even though those two guys were playing more than him. I guess it's just my thing now. TAA also does play regularly for the better team and better manager it should be said, and that's going to have a big part to play in his development. Whereas if Sancho was playing for a manager like that, who knows?
> 
> That being said when Pulisic was struggling earlier this season, Sancho could and maybe should have played more.



Right, so the main thing that separates them is experience. I don't think it is outlandish to suggest Sancho has more talent.

He's also had plenty of playing time for an 17-18 year old. More than TAA had at the same age.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Either him or Foden.




Uhm, Sessegnon???


----------



## Live in the Now

Big Kahuna said:


> Uhm, Sessegnon???




Yeah that's another one. Would put him over TAA too.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pouchkine said:


> So who will take the 4th spot? Hoffenheim has any chance? Who do you want in the last European places?




Leverkusen will probably finish 4th now. Hoffenheim still have some shot at the final CL spot, but their schedule is trickier: both teams still play Stuttgart and Hannover, but Leverkusen play Bremen in their other match while Hoffenheim face Dortmund. Hoffenheim still have a shot.

I think it's more likely that Leverkusen will be better at the start of next season since they are less likely to lose key players this summer and to need to adjust to that. So I guess in a CL playoff, they'd have a better shot at going through. Hoffenheim were pretty bad even in the Europa League this year.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Big Kahuna said:


> Uhm, Sessegnon???




Playing regularly in the 5th best league in Europe>>>>rarely playing in the 4th best league in Europe after all


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Big Kahuna said:


> Uhm, Sessegnon???




Harder to judge players playing in lower leagues.


----------



## YNWA14

Deficient Mode said:


> Remember how Kicker said like three days ago that Sancho was on the list of players whom Dortmund would completely willingly let leave?



This would of course be madness. Sancho was an absolute steal for Dortmund.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Really efficient goal from Schalke there


----------



## Evilo

Deficient Mode said:


> Playing regularly in the 5th best league in Europe>>>>rarely playing in the 4th best league in Europe after all



Think you meant playing regularly in the 2nd best league in Europe.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Not sure what Mere was doing on that second Schalke goal but he can't get beaten like that. Nice by Konoplyanka regardless. And Köln pull one back out of nothing though.



Evilo said:


> Think you meant playing regularly in the 2nd best league in Europe.




EPL>Championship>>>>La Liga>>>>>>>>>>Bundesliga, it's true


----------



## Albatros

I'm not sure that Stoke City playing in the EPL elevates the league as a whole above the Championship.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Deficient Mode said:


> Not sure what Mere was doing on that second Schalke goal but he can't get beaten like that. Nice by Konoplyanka regardless. And Köln pull one back out of nothing though.
> 
> 
> 
> EPL>Championship>>>>La Liga>>>>>>>>>>Bundesliga, it's true




You're definitely not far off. But if I can offer a small suggestion Argentina's superliga should be up there right in between the Championship but definitely not in front of La liga.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> You're definitely not far off. But if I can offer a small suggestion Argentina's superliga should be up there right in between the Championship but definitely not in front of La liga.




Hmmm I'd say Superliga is in the same spot as Bundesliga by the transitive property of "both being Ascacibar's playground."


----------



## ecemleafs

schalke need to buy a goal scorer in the summer.


----------



## Daeni10

Hector extends his contract with Cologne until 2023 and will play for them in the 2nd division next year. True character player


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Daeni10 said:


> Hector extends his contract with Cologne until 2023 and will play for them in the 2nd division next year. True character player




Could this instead be Koln trying to get more money from a transfer?


----------



## Albatros

For Köln promotion next season is a must and the financial situation relatively good, Hector will stay for sure.


----------



## cgf

So how long is the current tv deal again? Cause to maximize the next one the league should probably expand to 20 teams at least a year or two before it would kick in.


----------



## Daeni10

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Could this instead be Koln trying to get more money from a transfer?




"Jonas Hector states: “1. FC Köln allowed me to take the path from the regional league (fourth division) to the German national team. I am very connected and thankful to this club and feel very comfortable living in Cologne. It would have been no problem for me to switch to another club after this season, but it would not have felt right. We had many talks in the past few weeks and I had enough time to think about it. The decision for me is clear: I belong to FC and I want to go into the new season with this team and with these fans.”"

I honestly think that he feels happy here and won't change teams at all during his career or at least only during the later stages when he is pretty much done


----------



## Albatros

Horn is staying too, Köln already looking really good for the next season:

*Horn *- *Hector*, *Sobiech*, _CB_, Schmitz - *Koziello*, *Lehmann*, *Höger *- Bittencourt/Schaub, *Risse *- *Terodde*


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Question is if Bittencourt is staying.


----------



## cgf

We clearly have very different definitions of looking really good


----------



## Albatros

How many better lineups do you expect to see in the second league?


----------



## Bon Esprit

Former Bayern killer Kaiserslautern will be playing in the 3rd league next year. It's a shame. Next original Bundesligaclub is going downhill.


----------



## Albatros

The really sad part with Kaiserslautern is that they're not coming back, they're gone for good. I hope they can stabilize at least in the 3rd league somehow and not disappear altogether.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Did anyone know that Nuri Sahin is married to his cousin? Not joking. Thats so strange.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> The really sad part with Kaiserslautern is that they're not coming back, they're gone for good. I hope they can stabilize at least in the 3rd league somehow and not disappear altogether.




We all know it was rumored 10 years ago that the club actually was bankrupt. Money still isn't there. So, yes, they probably won't come back in the near future.
Liquiditätsprobleme: Hätte der 1. FC Kaiserslautern 2008 absteigen müssen? - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Sport


----------



## Bon Esprit

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Did anyone know that Nuri Sahin is married to his cousin? Not joking. Thats so strange.



Yes, check his religion. It's not that unusual.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Bon Esprit said:


> Yes, check his religion. It's not that unusual.



Umm no it doesn't have anything to do with his religion lol.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Umm no it doesn't have anything to do with his religion lol.



For decades it's unusual to marry your cousin in Central Europe. And Sahin was born in Lüdenscheid, Germany. It has a lot to do with his religion.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> The really sad part with Kaiserslautern is that they're not coming back, they're gone for good. I hope they can stabilize at least in the 3rd league somehow and not disappear altogether.




Wut? They've been a top half BuLi2 team for over a decade. They're struggling mightily atm, but this isn't 1860.


Bon Esprit said:


> We all know it was rumored 10 years ago that the club actually was bankrupt. Money still isn't there. So, yes, they probably won't come back in the near future.
> Liquiditätsprobleme: Hätte der 1. FC Kaiserslautern 2008 absteigen müssen? - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Sport




That's a good thing in some ways since it'll force them to use the young talent that they've neglected for years; like Nurnberg has been doing during their recent pushes to return to BuLi1.


----------



## cgf

multi-quote fail

e:
might as well use this post to let everyone know that I posted my (mostly) updated lists of german youth talents in the Soccer Prospects thread broken down by age group. With some thoughts about each generation, grades, a depth chart of the biggest talents, and some hypothetical lineups that a full-force german U23 team could roll out if the WM suddenly became a U23 tourney.

Always appreciate questions & input on those as it's a running thing I do for my own amusement as a source of discussion.


----------



## Albatros

If they were 1860 they'd have some hope, in Munich at least the region is doing well. Kaiserslautern on the other hand can not support a major club anymore, so whatever they do they're almost certainly doomed.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> If they were 1860 they'd have some hope, in Munich at least the region is doing well. Kaiserslautern on the other hand can not support a major club anymore, so whatever they do they're almost certainly doomed.




I think you are right. Saarland, Rhineland-Pfalz (Mainz ex. for now) are done with Bundesliga. Does anyone remember Homburg in the BL?
On the bright side 1. FC Magdeburg finally managed to become pro. Never did it in the new system. I welcome one of the great GDR teams back in the circus.


----------



## Albatros

Bon Esprit said:


> Does anyone remember Homburg in the BL?




Actually that's unforgettable 






(For those that don't know, "London" was a brand of condoms in the 1980s and their Bundesliga sponsorship deal with Homburg a major scandal - times change)


----------



## gary69

I remember Homburg as somewhat an underachiever in the 1980's, they had some quite good (especially foreign) players (Wojcicki, Buncol, Dooley), who had good careers in other teams as well.

Interesting anecdote about Homburg in later years was Miroslav Klose starting his career with them. Very few people would have predicted that a 20-year Regionalliga player, who had scored 1 goal in almost 20 games with Homburg, would become a prolific top-level marksman and end up as an all-time World Cup leading scorer.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> Actually that's unforgettable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (For those that don't know, "London" was a brand of condoms in the 1980s and their Bundesliga sponsorship deal with Homburg a major scandal - times change)





LOL, yes that was a scandal back then, only topped by the Gaddafi ECD Iserlohn connection.
Gaddafi lockte Iserlohner mit viel Geld aufs Glatteis


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Bon Esprit said:


> For decades it's unusual to marry your cousin in Central Europe. And Sahin was born in Lüdenscheid, Germany. It has a lot to do with his religion.




Its part of no religion that I know of... the monolithic ones anyway. I don't even know what the religion he subscribes to (if at all) although I can make an educated guess.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Serge Gnabry is out for the season and WC due to injury.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Its part of no religion that I know of... the monolithic ones anyway. I don't even know what the religion he subscribes to (if at all) although I can make an educated guess.



I won't discuss religion stuff here. If you are interested in that topic please use google and see what is happening in Europe today, esp. arranged marriages (Turkey/Germany).


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Bon Esprit said:


> I won't discuss religion stuff here. If you are interested in that topic please use google and see what is happening in Europe today, esp. arranged marriages (Turkey/Germany).




Yeah, why don't you just post a link to Ben Shapiro(that racist) for me. I'm well versed in this subject thanks.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> Serge Gnabry is out for the season and WC due to injury.




He made some strides this season, but one can’t help but wonder if Bayern shouldn’t have left him at Werder for a year instead of moving him to Hoffenheim.


----------



## Bon Esprit

After yesterday's (expected) loss to Hoffenheim I have to admit that I'm pulling for Hamburg and Köln today. A Leipzig win tomorrow would help, too.


----------



## Bon Esprit

The 2. Bundesliga is insane this year. Except 4 mabe 5 teams every club has a lot to win or loose this season. Only Sandhausen and Ingolstadt seem to be safe.


----------



## Savant

Lars Lukas Mai, Shabani, Evina and Dorsch starting for Bayern.

Where are the scouts at?


----------



## Bon Esprit

Savant said:


> Lars Lukas Mai, Shabani, Evina and Dorsch starting for Bayern.
> 
> Where are the scouts at?



They do it, because they can do it. And they will probably win.


----------



## Bon Esprit

HSV won. LOL at WOB.
Freiburg won, too


----------



## Albatros

After Mainz predictably loses tomorrow, then HSV actually has quite decent chances of survival. Two points to go, two matches to go, and two very weak rivals to outdo.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> After Mainz predictably loses tomorrow, then HSV actually has quite decent chances of survival. Two points to go, two matches to go, and two very weak rivals to outdo.



That's correct. If Hamburg avoids relegation again I can't stop laughing .

In other news; Welcome back Düsseldorf (It must be even better without Köln).


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Savant said:


> Lars Lukas Mai, Shabani, Evina and Dorsch starting for Bayern.
> 
> Where are the scouts at?




I've read that Mai is very good. There hasn't been a Bayern academy product come through the Bayern academy to the Bayern first team in over 10 years, so it might not matter if he's very good.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I've read that Mai is very good. There hasn't been a Bayern academy product come through the Bayern academy to the Bayern first team in over 10 years, so it might not matter if he's very good.



David Alaba was the last IIRC. And Alaba is underrated by so many. Great player, best Austrian IMO.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bon Esprit said:


> David Alaba was the last IIRC. And Alaba is underrated by so many. Great player, best Austrian IMO.




I guess its only 8 years then. I forgot about him, was thinking that Kroos was the last one, but its still a long time, and you gotta be on a path to world class to break through at Bayern. The last few that have were that.


----------



## cgf

Savant said:


> Lars Lukas Mai, Shabani, Evina and Dorsch starting for Bayern.
> 
> Where are the scouts at?




Evina & Mai are major talents, Eto & Hummels are the comps they often get, and Dorsch was a big talent before stalling the past two years. Shabani I don’t rate much.


----------



## cgf

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I've read that Mai is very good. There hasn't been a Bayern academy product come through the Bayern academy to the Bayern first team in over 10 years, so it might not matter if he's very good.




True, but KHR has talked about wanting bring up an academy member a year recently; and with OBM, Früchtl, Evina & Mai, they have talents that could make it who are getting close.


----------



## Albatros

After Alaba one could maybe count Mitchell Weiser despite coming quite late to Bayern, he was first XI for the end of the 2014/15 season.


----------



## cgf

Watching the bayern game to see all the kids they started...my date's in bed, but I can't sleep 

-*Evina* has looked fantastic from the get go. Extremely robust & dynamic, he's driving Bayern forward constantly with his athleticism & tight-area dribbling. His passing game still needs more work, as he played some sloppy passes that got away from him, but I like the thought process behind the things he's doing, just needs more practice slinging it around with great players until he delivers it exactly where he wants it every time. Wagner missed at least 3 nice chances that Evina crafted for him.

Franck Jr. curled a really nice effort wide in the first 15 minutes and had a great chance before that, when he didn't realize just how much time & space he had in the box; ending up putting a weak header on goal when he could've settled the ball with his chest and put a proper shot on net. And he almost got to the rebound of a Wagner shot with the net wide open, but Da Costa just beat him to the ball.

He missed that opening goal, but the kid showed why folks compare him to Eto; and it's not looking like a stretch at all to suggest that Evina & Batista Meier may well be able to replace Robbery for Bayern internally in time.

-*Dorsch* really needs to go somewhere where he'll play regularly. Dunno if we'll see him ever hitting the heights of Weigl, Geiger or Maier; but I can certainly see him doing a great job anchoring Werder's midfield...especially once Mbom & Schneider start to break through in front of him. Reads the play well, makes decisions quickly, and has a nice touch. The goal isn't necessarily reflective of his game, but it doesn't shock me that he found himself in that position.

-I like what I'm seeing from *Mai* against senior level players, he could be quicker, but I like how he processes play & the skill level is strong. He could do a fine job as Bayern's 4th CB next season...especially with Javi able to deputize there in case of injuries. Just gunna have to make sure he gets rotated in if everyone stays fit, so that he doesn't stall.

-*Shabani* had a nice movement early on that I can remember, but that's pretty much it. His touch is good, but it's nothing special, his passing hasn't been incisive and though I see a BuLi player, I don't see a particularly standout one. The young kosovar-german seems the kind of talent who'll have to switch NTs to crack the senior level internationally. Doubt he plays much more for Bayern than what PT he can get in these last few games...and frankly, I hope that OBM is given those minutes instead.

-This might be the sloppiest I've seen *Rudy* play in a few years, can't be doing that if he wants to be Jogi's swiss army utilityman in Russia.


----------



## Bure80

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I forgot about him, was thinking that Kroos was the last one, but its still a long time, and you gotta be on a path to world class to break through at Bayern. The last few that have were that.




Kroos was more a product of Greifswald and Rostock.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Lars Stindl might be out for the WC I read. I hope it isn't true. He's one of my favourite players.


----------



## Albatros

Bure80 said:


> Kroos was more a product of Greifswald and Rostock.




Of his father really, got tons of additional training that way. Bayern then gave him the opportunity to take the next step.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Mainz with a huge win today. I don't know why, but I have a feeling that WOB might get relegated and HSV somehow escapes relegation.


----------



## Albatros

Only the fourth victory for them in the 16 matches after Christmas, quite vital indeed. Leipzig meanwhile has allowed 18 goals in their last 5 games.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Same lineup today. Kagawa back on the bench.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Classic Götze third assist there. But he's not scoring for Dortmund so he's bad.

Nice strike by Reus as usual


----------



## Deficient Mode

lol that penalty box defending

And Reus had just wasted a clear chance off a Götze pass


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> lol that penalty box defending
> 
> And Reus had just wasted a clear chance off a Götze pass




I seriously don't understand what some people watch when they criticize Goetze. Who else can make that pass to Reus that was botched?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Imagine having Kagawa on the bench and deciding to bring in Schurrle instead.


----------



## cgf

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I seriously don't understand what some people watch when they criticize Goetze. Who else can make that pass to Reus that was botched?




They watch a player who isn't the Messi or Gerd that Mario was hyped as when he was first coming up and especially when the Bayern board was trying to convince Pep that he was german-Neymar...around the time of his WC winning goal as a false 9...which is why I have always been so vocal about him actually being german-Iniesta instead. People watch him expecting to see a player he never was, and so they miss the things that make him so special as the player he actually is.

His health also hasn't helped...though it's strange that it taints people's view of him more than Ilkay or Marco's health impacts people's views of them when fit.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

This has been an absolutely dreadful performance.


----------



## Albatros

cgf said:


> People watch him expecting to see a player he never was, and so they miss the things that make him so special as the player he actually is.




To be fair his game has also changed a lot, so many are just caught by that transition and some maybe disappointed that it happened at all.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> This has been an absolutely dreadful performance.




I think many of the positives from last week are still there: Sancho, Akanji, Götze, Weigl. The finish wasn't there at all and the defensive woes reared their head again. 

No idea how this game ended 1-1.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> To be fair his game has also changed a lot, so many are just caught by that transition and some maybe disappointed that it happened at all.




Eh, I don’t think it’s actually changed all that much. He’s lost his extraordinary quickness, but I’ve been calling him German-Iniesta on this board since he first broke through. 

The biggest change has been that he’s finally being used in the way i wanted him to be used from the get go


----------



## Albatros

2012-14 he scored 20 goals and 21 assists in the Bundesliga, 2016-18 only three and five respectively. It's natural that people are going to pay attention on those things even if he's been playing one of his better seasons behind the numbers.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> 2012-14 he scored 20 goals and 21 assists in the Bundesliga, 2016-18 only three and five respectively. It's natural that people are going to pay attention on those things even if he's been playing one of his better seasons behind the numbers.




Sure but that’s why I point to his perception and misuse earlier in his career. It gave people the wrong ideas about him as a player so they judge him by incorrect criteria


----------



## cgf

Steinkotter missed todays 2-0 win over Leverkusen's u19s, but Gladbach's '99 born Forward/Winger has held onto the goalscoring lead in A-Junioren West. Not sure what to make of him, though he does seem quite Stindl-y whenever I watch him...

Their academy really doesn't have much until the exceptional 2001 class...Kaan Kurt, Ryan Adigo, Jordi Bongard, Jonas Pfalz & Mohamed El Bakali...and the great talents they already have shining from the 2002 (Mika Schoers, Denzel Tawiah & Rocco Reitz) & 2003 (Luca Barata) age groups. But Steinkotter & Hanraths of the 99ers could be legit.


----------



## Albatros

Max Meyer permanently suspended from all team activity by Schalke, his contract will expire this summer and they feel that he has shown very poor and unprofessional attitude the last weeks.


----------



## Deficient Mode




----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

We can't afford the wages he'll want, but if we could, we should sign him. Very good player. He can back-up Weigl. If Weigl decides to leave, maybe we can give Meyer that spot, and be able to afford his wages.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich




----------



## Pavel Buchnevich




----------



## cgf

Well having failed to secure Nagelsmann due to bayern's incompetence, and having burned their bridges with Tuchel, Favre or Sarri were pretty much the dream candidates for that job.

...really hope that Favre doesn't come to hate working for Watzke too much :-(


----------



## Albatros

Sarri wouldn't make any sense, Favre is something of a lateral move. A younger name would have been interesting, but perhaps Wagner will come next year if Favre fails. Or Hannes Wolf.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> Sarri wouldn't make any sense, Favre is something of a lateral move. A younger name would have been interesting, but perhaps Wagner will come next year if Favre fails. Or Hannes Wolf.




Favre is certainly not a lateral move from Stöger. Wagner and Wolf would be massive disappointments next summer.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> Sarri wouldn't make any sense, Favre is something of a lateral move. A younger name would have been interesting, but perhaps Wagner will come next year if Favre fails. Or Hannes Wolf.




Sarri is a great coach for the style BVB want to play, why on worth wouldn't he have made sense? And Favre is an absolutely massive upgrade on Bosz & Stöger, he best's them even at their strengths; i.e. he's better at structuring possession than Bosz was, and is better at organizing his team against the ball than Stöger. Getting him is a coup for Dortmund since they got the best guy on the market that they hadn't blown their shot with already (Tuchel & Nagelsmann).

The only drawback is that Watzke will eventually fall out with him because Favre's a bit of an odd duck, and Watzke has shown that he does poorly with...idiosyncratic...tacticians.


----------



## Albatros

Sarri doesn't appear to speak German, although that might be a good thing considering that he has a history of sexist and homophobic behavior. No sense in taking risks with such characters when there are domestic talents available. Wolf will be getting a lot of airtime this summer which could make him a household name like it elevated Klopp in the past.


----------



## cgf

I didn't know about any sexist or homophobic behaviour, but that would be a shame cause the likes of Wolf aren't on his level as tacticians or football-thinkers and language is a manageable barrier. So I'd have to look deeper into his history to say that there were any better candidates than Sarri other than Tuchel, Nagelsmann, Favre or pulling the next Nagelsmann out of some University and giving him the job with no prior experience.


----------



## Albatros

Nagelsmann would in theory be fine, but he doesn't seem to be willing to switch to Dortmund right now. Wolf had an excellent record coaching the Dortmund juniors, and is reigning DFB coach of the year. Despite the struggles over the winter in Stuttgart, his first season as a pro had brought promotion. Not a bad résumé overall. Knows the BVB organization and the players very well, which is obviously a big plus.


----------



## cgf

"Not a bad resume" =/= a great coach make. Bosz's resume wasn't bad either, nor is that of Salzburg's coach, or Young Boys' coach. Still doesn't make them as great of coaches as Pep, Tuchel, Nagelsmann, Favre or Sarri.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> Nagelsmann would in theory be fine, but he doesn't seem to be willing to switch to Dortmund right now. Wolf had an excellent record coaching the Dortmund juniors, and is reigning DFB coach of the year. Despite the struggles over the winter in Stuttgart, his first season as a pro had brought promotion. Not a bad résumé overall. Knows the BVB organization and the players very well, which is obviously a big plus.




I like Wolf but I fail to see how he really has any more experience with Dortmund's players than Favre, who has certainly coached more of the relevant players. He hasn't done nearly enough to merit consideration for the BVB senior job apart from his connections to the organization.


----------



## Albatros

A 37-year-old Tuchel had finished his first season with Mainz finishing 9th, Favre was coaching the juniors of Neuchâtel Xamax, and Guardiola had coached Barcelona's reserves for a year. I think Wolf's back-to-back three junior titles and a promotion compare fairly well despite the bad streak that cost him his latest job. Now he just has to take the next step.

Favre is not a bad choice, but he has little if any unfulfilled potential left, what you see is what you get.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> A 37-year-old Tuchel had finished his first season with Mainz finishing 9th, Favre was coaching the juniors of Neuchâtel Xamax, and Guardiola had coached Barcelona's reserves for a year. I think Wolf's back-to-back three junior titles and a promotion compare fairly well despite the bad streak that cost him his latest job. Now he just has to take the next step.




What does that have to do with anything? Aside from Guardiola - who had an exceptional year with Barca B that was far better than anything Wolf has done, and who was fast-tracked to the main job as a club legend with a good relationship with the club's president - neither of those guys were anywhere close to being considered for the head job at a club the size of Dortmund.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> A 37-year-old Tuchel had finished his first season with Mainz finishing 9th, Favre was coaching the juniors of Neuchâtel Xamax, and Guardiola had coached Barcelona's reserves for a year. I think Wolf's back-to-back three junior titles and a promotion compare fairly well despite the bad streak that cost him his latest job. Now he just has to take the next step.
> 
> Favre is not a bad choice, but he has little if any unfulfilled potential left, what you see is what you get.




By this "logic", Nagelsmann has the most impressive resume of all time.


----------



## Albatros

Deficient Mode said:


> What does that have to do with anything? Aside from Guardiola - who had an exceptional year with Barca B that was far better than anything Wolf has done, and who was fast-tracked to the main job as a club legend with a good relationship with the club's president - neither of those guys were anywhere close to being considered for the head job at a club the size of Dortmund.




I wouldn't rank winning the Spanish third division with FC Barcelona's resources higher than (or really anywhere near to) winning the 2. Bundesliga, it's more like winning the Regionalliga Bayern with FC Bayern II. At best.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> I wouldn't rank winning the Spanish third division with FC Barcelona's resources higher than (or really anywhere near to) winning the 2. Bundesliga, it's more like winning the Regionalliga Bayern with FC Bayern II. At best.




And Stuttgart's actual first team had far more resources than everyone in the 2. league and should have been expected to be one of the best teams in the league going down from the first league.

And it really is beside the point, anyway. There is no parallel between where coaches were at a certain age. As cgf said, Nagelsmann is probably the best 30 year old manager in the history of the sport. Who cares. Wolf has done nothing yet to merit the Dortmund first team job. Period.


----------



## Albatros

Sure Stuttgart was expected to do well, but still he delivered against a tough competition which is a serious merit. It's not like going against amateurs in a provincial competition with a team consisting of talents like Busquets, Pedro, and Thiago and winning that race by one point. Nagelsmann may be ahead, but he's also taken. Other than him and Tedesco there aren't really any better young names in Germany.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> Sure Stuttgart was expected to do well, but still he delivered against a tough competition which is a serious merit. It's not like going against amateurs in a provincial competition with a team consisting of talents like Busquets, Pedro, and Thiago and winning that race by one point. Nagelsmann may be ahead, but he's also taken. Other than him and Tedesco there aren't really any better young names in Germany.




Busquets was a striker before Guardiola got his hands on him. Pedro wasn't that highly heralded. Thiago was 16.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Wolf isn't bad, but would've been underwhelming. Favre is kind of underwhelming, but I don't think he'll be awful. Both are still a big step down from Tuchel.

They are all better options than Stoeger. Wolf vs. Bosz might be close. I don't think Bosz is that bad, although he needs to adjust his tactics better.


----------



## Deficient Mode

More evidence Eintracht is the absolute worst


----------



## Bon Esprit

Latest rumour is Villas-Boas to Dortmund.

BVB auf Trainer-Suche: Mourinho-Lehrling ist plötzlich heißer Kandidat

Whatever, take Favre and you'll be good. Maybe.


----------



## Albatros

Villas-Boas could be interesting, he has a good record everywhere except Chelsea and could probably adapt well.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Rene Adler is out for the season. This is very bad news for Mainz 05.


----------



## Deficient Mode

I have no interest in Villas-Boas. It's going to be Favre.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> Villas-Boas could be interesting, he has a good record everywhere except Chelsea and could probably adapt well.




lol you shit on Favre & hype AVB, it’s like you didn’t actually watch these coaches previous clubs and are only looking at the prestige of those clubs


----------



## Albatros

Bon Esprit said:


> Rene Adler is out for the season. This is very bad news for Mainz 05.




I don't know, happy to give Müller the opportunity even if the circumstances are suboptimal now. In the not-too-distant future he should be the #1 anyway.


----------



## Albatros

cgf said:


> lol you **** on Favre & hype AVB, it’s like you didn’t actually watch these coaches previous clubs and are only looking at the prestige of those clubs




Porto was totally dominant under Villas-Boas, winning the treble. In Tottenham he was equal to Pocchettino, with Zenit he won the league and the cup. One mediocre season with Chelsea doesn't change much.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> Porto was totally dominant under Villas-Boas, winning the treble. In Tottenham he was equal to Pocchettino, with Zenit he won the league and the cup. One mediocre season with Chelsea doesn't change much.




He was absolutely terrible with zenit. Like Ancelotti’s Bayern, they were much worse than the sum of their parts despite having a lot more talent than their opposition. And his Tottenham wasn’t close to as good as Poch’s, what a silly thing to say.

I didn’t watch his Porto so can’t comment, but that’s the only job he’s had where even the possibility of him having done a great job exists. 

Favre did a great job with Zurich, rescued Hertha from relegation, and was phenomenal for both Gladbach & Nice despite being massively outspent.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> I don't know, happy to give Müller the opportunity even if the circumstances are suboptimal now. In the not-too-distant future he should be the #1 anyway.



Mainz is not in a comfortable situation (as you stated). There are better situations to let young players smell Bundesliga air. They are still in danger to get relegated (16th).


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> lol you **** on Favre & hype AVB, it’s like you didn’t actually watch these coaches previous clubs and are only looking at the prestige of those clubs



I had an argument with df two weeks ago or so. I still think BvB is not in the position to try experiments. They should simply sign Favre. He knows what he is doing. They have work to do with their roster.


----------



## Albatros

cgf said:


> He was absolutely terrible with zenit.




Yet has the best record in club history.



> And his Tottenham wasn’t close to as good as Poch’s, what a silly thing to say.




Both won 55 % of their games, hard to see any difference there.



> Favre did a great job with Zurich, rescued Hertha from relegation, and was phenomenal for both Gladbach & Nice despite being massively outspent.




Favre did fine for the most part, but being outspent is so one thing. Nice is the 5th biggest spender in the league, last year they finished 3rd and are currently 7th.


----------



## Deficient Mode

lol Dortmund

Also jeez Sancho is amazing


----------



## Albatros

That Baku kid is pretty good.


----------



## ecemleafs

dortmund have been abused on the counter in this game.


----------



## ecemleafs

Mainz playing like the game matters. Dortmund playing like theres nothing to play for.


----------



## Bon Esprit

ecemleafs said:


> Mainz playing like the game matters. Dortmund playing like theres nothing to play for.



Dortmund still can get kicked out of the CL.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Hoffenheim also down 0-1 to Stuttgart. Leverkusen level with Bremen. I guess - typical of the whole season - no team after Bayern really wants to qualify for the Champions League next year.


----------



## Evilo

Villas Boas has a terrible track record. He has had one great season, and if you look into it, he only beat teams he was supposed to beat that year.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Watching Reus play I can't help but think that it's only logical he gets injured all the time. While most players who rely on dribbling and pace seek open space, he seems to have an uncanny propensity to run at high speed into crowds of opponents who're all trying to tackle him.


----------



## Bon Esprit

I guess that's it for Hamburg.

Dortmund should be safe despite the result today.

At the bottom it's between WOB and Freiburg.


----------



## Albatros

Evilo said:


> He has had one great season, and if you look into it, he only beat teams he was supposed to beat that year.




Porto was undefeated that season.


----------



## Deficient Mode

So Hoffenheim would have to beat Dortmund by 3 goals to overtake them for third?

First time in 13 seasons that third place team in the league will have finished with fewer than 60 points, and probably the weakest third place finisher by points in 20 years in this league unless Dortmund somehow win next week.

You'd also have to go back 13 seasons to find a 2nd place team that finished with as few points as Schalke can max out at now.


----------



## Albatros

The notorious "fans" of Lok Leipzig are losing it in the social media after their club updated their Facebook profile picture (in the middle):






This comes after a Lok youth team posed giving Nazi salutes in their team photo, as ordered by their coach. The coach in question has meanwhile been fired. I didn't think I will see the day when any sort of decisive action against Nazis is taken within this club, even if it proves temporary.


----------



## cgf

Anyone watch the Bayern match? Apparently Evina started again, but I missed it.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> *This comes after a Lok youth team posed giving Nazi salutes in their team photo, as ordered by their coach.* The coach in question has meanwhile been fired. I didn't think I will see the day when any sort of decisive action against Nazis is taken within this club, even if it proves temporary.




Holy shit.



cgf said:


> Anyone watch the Bayern match? Apparently Evina started again, but I missed it.




He played the first half, after which they were down 1-0, then was subbed off for Thiago. Hmmm.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Holy ****.




...there’s a reason I was taught as a kid to hate Lok & Dresden almost as much BFC


----------



## Evilo

Albatros said:


> Porto was undefeated that season.



Big deal. Portugese league with Benfica and Sporting not at their greatest. Undefeated in league only BTW, they did lose in cups. He had Falcao and Hulk. 
They won the Europa League with a whopping 1-0 spanking of Braga. On the way to the final, they impressively beat Sevilla (on away goals), Moscow, and Villareal (with yet another defeat).
Then he failed at Chelsea.
Then he failed at Spurs (couldn't even qualify them for CL)
Then he won 1 russian title with the best and most expensive team in two years there.

AVB is nowhere near being a top coach.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Albatros said:


> The notorious "fans" of Lok Leipzig are losing it in the social media after their club updated their Facebook profile picture (in the middle):




Truth is that without their loyal 'nazi' fans that club probably wouldn't even exist anymore. Lefties in Leipzig go to Chemie or if they're really lefty to Roter Stern..middle-of-the-road bourgeois 'I just want to watch good football' types go to Red Bull.


----------



## Albatros

Evilo said:


> Big deal. Portugese league with Benfica and Sporting not at their greatest. Undefeated in league only BTW, they did lose in cups.




They won both the domestic cup and the Europa League, not even the great Benfica teams of the past ever won the treble. Only Mourinho compares.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> They won both the domestic cup and the Europa League, not even the great Benfica teams of the past ever won the treble. Only Mourinho compares.




Look, if you give AVB a lot more talent than any of his opponents, and a couple tries to pull it off, he might be able to deliver 1 successful season.

...but that doesn't make him any good...


----------



## Bure80

The game today showed me again why i dont like the Combi Weigl/Götze in the middle. Both are not able to organize the defense. It's so easy to score against Dortmund on the counter.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Good game to not bother watching.


----------



## Evilo

Albatros said:


> They won both the domestic cup and the Europa League, not even the great Benfica teams of the past ever won the treble. Only Mourinho compares.



Again, you don't watch the context.
Benfica finished 2nd with a record 7 losses, including away losses to very very poor teams.
The portugese league was easy to dominate that year, especially when you had easily the best roster.
They didn't face a single big team on their way to the EL win. Biggest they faced was Sevilla and they could only win on away goals.

Mourinho actually won a CL. And even though he too managed to avoid the bigger teams (only United was clearly a bigger team, while Arsenal, Chelsea, Real, Juventus and Bayern were all avoided by Porto), the challenge was nowhere near AVB's.


----------



## Albatros

Evilo said:


> Again, you don't watch the context.
> Benfica finished 2nd with a record 7 losses, including away losses to very very poor teams.
> The portugese league was easy to dominate that year, especially when you had easily the best roster.
> They didn't face a single big team on their way to the EL win. Biggest they faced was Sevilla and they could only win on away goals.




Sevilla has won the competition five times, more often than any other team. That's pretty big. No one wins a treble by mere luck, nor are there easy opponents in the finals.


----------



## Evilo

Sevilla won it much more recently than that. The Emery era was more recent.

Yes there are easy routes to a final (see United last year) and tougher ones. Porto obviously got a VERY easy draw. And I didn't say they were lucky to win the league. Just that the opponents were particularly weak that season.

And that still doesn't make up for all the under-average years AVB has coached everywhere else.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

AVB at Porto was basically slightly above 'replacement level' to borrow a term from baseball analytics i.e. he did slightly better than what you'd expect your average professional manager to achieve in that scenario. The Mourinho connection/parallels were what hyped him up so much that he got a big job so quickly. It turned out to be a bad move for all involved parties.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> So Hoffenheim would have to beat Dortmund by 3 goals to overtake them for third?




Two goals. GD is three right now, it would be a shift of four with a two goal win.

Only way we don't even qualify for fourth is at least a two goal loss to Hoffenheim and then Leverkusen has to make up a seven goal difference on the current standings with a win over Hannover.

I don't think not qualifying is all that likely, but a two goal loss to Hoffenheim isn't that unlikely.


----------



## Albatros

Evilo said:


> And that still doesn't make up for all the under-average years AVB has coached everywhere else.




According to Transfermarkt, Villas-Boas ranks among the club managers in points per game:

Porto 1st (2.62)
Chelsea 11th (1.75)
Tottenham 1st (1.91)
Zenit 1st (2.08)
Shanghai 2nd (2.02)

I don't think that's under average, other than for Chelsea obviously. In fact I dare to claim that there aren't all too many other managers that lead the statistic at three different European cup winners.


----------



## Evilo

Incredible you refuse to watch context. Porto has an easy win that famous year.
He sucked with Chelsea.
Spurs were exactly where they before and under where they are now (no idea why you equaled with Poch). Even with Bale, they didn't reach the CL.
Two years with Zenith as heavy favourites and richest team, one single champ trophy.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Two goals. GD is three right now, it would be a shift of four with a two goal win.
> 
> Only way we don't even qualify for fourth is at least a two goal loss to Hoffenheim and then Leverkusen has to make up a seven goal difference on the current standings with a win over Hannover.
> 
> I don't think not qualifying is all that likely, but a two goal loss to Hoffenheim isn't that unlikely.




Oh right lol. I forgot Hoffenheim's GD goes up as much as Dortmund's goes down since they're playing each other.


----------



## Albatros

Evilo said:


> no idea why you equaled with Poch




Because his 1.91 points per game are almost identical to Pochettino's 1.89 points.



> Two years with Zenith as heavy favourites and richest team, one single champ trophy.




Two trophies in two years, after his departure they have won nothing and are currently 5th in the league.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> Because his 1.91 points per game are almost identical to Pochettino's 1.89 points.
> 
> 
> 
> Two trophies in two years, after his departure they have won nothing and are currently 5th in the league.




So you've just bought into that Mendes hype hook-line-&-sinker, huh?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pochettino has earned 1.95 points per match in the EPL to AVB's 1.83 in the EPL in his time at Tottenham. That's the only points per match total worth comparing, and a significant difference (4.5 points over a who EPL season). Otherwise AVB's points per match is inflated by a bunch of wins over cupcake sides in Europa League qualifying and groups, whereas Tottenham were more focused on CL qualification in Poch's second year when they were in the EL (where he still made it as far as AVB ever did - the quarterfinals - and lost to a great Dortmund team, instead of to freaking Basel). Those non-knockout EL matches made up 17.5% of AVB's total Tottenham matches but only 6.5% of Poch's Tottenham matches, and are enough to swing their overall points per match in a misleading way: Poch generally faced far harder competition in European matches since they've been playing in the CL in his tenure.


----------



## Albatros

Mendes is Mourinho's agent, Villas-Boas is represented by another agency.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> Mendes is Mourinho's agent, Villas-Boas is represented by another agency.




Look at the talents that carried AVB's "successful" teams at Porto & Zenit ;-)


----------



## Albatros

3/8 of his top clients play for Guardiola.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> 3/8 of his top clients play for Guardiola.




And Pep's greatness doesn't depend on two seasons in which all of Mendes were funneled to AVB's team in an inferior league at a time where the opposition was at a low...

So what point do you think you were making?


----------



## Albatros

Mendes represents a large number of Portuguese and South American players. Of the ten players Villas-Boas used most at Porto one is his client. At Zenit two.


----------



## Evilo

Albatros said:


> Because his 1.91 points per game are almost identical to Pochettino's 1.89 points.
> 
> 
> 
> Two trophies in two years, after his departure they have won nothing and are currently 5th in the league.



Still zero context.
Poch has reached the CL almost every year he's coached Spurs. None with AVB who had Spurs best player in the peak of his career in Bale.
And Zenith was the heavy favourite those two years. 1 champion trophy. That's at best the expectations.


----------



## Stray Wasp

Evilo said:


> Still zero context.
> Poch has reached the CL almost every year he's coached Spurs. None with AVB who had Spurs best player in the peak of his career in Bale.
> And Zenith was the heavy favourite those two years. 1 champion trophy. That's at best the expectations.




You don't seem to understand. To crack a nut when your only tool is a sledgehammer requires elite level genius.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Spoiling Roman Weidenfeller's farewell was classless. Some fanbases are true crap. The worst ae still H96 fans, of course.


----------



## Albatros

Evilo said:


> Poch has reached the CL almost every year he's coached Spurs. None with AVB who had Spurs best player in the peak of his career in Bale.




Pochettino had one better and two worse seasons in terms of points. As for the squads (opening-day XI):

2012/13: Friedel - Assou-Èkotto, Gallas, Kaboul, Walker - Sandro, Livermore - Bale, Sigurdsson, Lennon - Defoe
2017/18: Lloris - Davies, Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Walker-Peters - Dier, Dembélé - Sissoko, Alli, Eriksen - Kane

I don't think you get to claim that Villas-Boas had the better material either.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Spoiling Roman Weidenfeller's farewell was classless. Some fanbases are true crap. The worst ae still H96 fans, of course.




I agree, pretty classless of BVB players to spoil Weidenfeller's farewell with such a shitty performance. What does that have to do with the fans though?????????


----------



## Evilo

Albatros said:


> Pochettino had one better and two worse seasons in terms of points. As for the squads (opening-day XI):
> 
> 2012/13: Friedel - Assou-Èkotto, Gallas, Kaboul, Walker - Sandro, Livermore - Bale, Sigurdsson, Lennon - Defoe
> 2017/18: Lloris - Davies, Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Walker-Peters - Dier, Dembélé - Sissoko, Alli, Eriksen - Kane
> 
> I don't think you get to claim that Villas-Boas had the better material either.



Yeah well take a look at the other team's rosters...

Anyway, it's useless, you continute to think AVB is a world class coach despite the overwhelming evidence he isn't.
No matter what team you support I wish you the incredible chance he manages it.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> I agree, pretty classless of BVB players to spoil Weidenfeller's farewell with such a ****ty performance. What does that have to do with the fans though?????????




True fans can separate bad performances of the team from deserved player achievements. They messed that up.
You don't have to use 8 question marks to make your point.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

They did cheer Weidenfeller, but it's a bit confusing when you want to cheer him and boo the team at the same time.


----------



## Bon Esprit

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> They did cheer Weidenfeller, but it's a bit confusing when you want to cheer him and boo the team at the same time.



Weidenfeller yesterday said on sportstudio he had trouble to handle the situation. As seen he stood right in front on the fans and the team stood 10m behind him.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Welcome back Nürnberg and Düsseldorf and hopefully welcome to Holstein Kiel.


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> They did cheer Weidenfeller, but it's a bit confusing when you want to cheer him and boo the team at the same time.




Watching the videos, it was clear that the vast majority of people were cheering for Weidenfeller. There were a few whistles. That was all. There is plenty of evidence that Dortmund's fanbase is crap; this was not it.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Lichtsteiner from Juve to Dortmund. No fee.
https://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/1-bundesliga/transfer-ticker-sommer-2018-55480722.bild.html


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Lichtsteiner from Juve to Dortmund. No fee.
> https://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/1-bundesliga/transfer-ticker-sommer-2018-55480722.bild.html




lol what a crazy move

I hope they're paying him per match that the next manager decides to play him


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> Watching the videos, it was clear that the vast majority of people were cheering for Weidenfeller. There were a few whistles. That was all. There is plenty of evidence that Dortmund's fanbase is crap; this was not it.



I'm probably way too sentive when it comes to fan behaviour. Our fans are ruining our club with their attitude and hate for Kind.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> I'm probably way too sentive when it comes to fan behaviour. Our fans are ruining our club with their attitude and hate for Kind.




I would probably hate Kind if I were a Hannover supporter too. Support the players and cheer when they're playing, but IDK about a financially dominant pseudo-owner figure like Kind.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> I would probably hate Kind if I were a Hannover supporter too. Support the players and cheer when they're playing, but IDK about a financially dominant pseudo-owner figure like Kind.



I don't like Martin Kind either. But without him there wouldn't be pro football in Hannover. Having those idiotic ultras around is no fun. No sane player would choose H96 over any other team if they know they'll play in a mortuary.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Sebastian Rode might get fined for his remarks on sky on the future of Stöger in Dortmund. Oh my...

Borussia Dortmund: Strafe für BVB-Profi Rode wäre dramatischer Fehler - WELT


----------



## Bon Esprit

So, according to sky Favre will become the next BvB coach. And then they fine Rode, because he said so? LOL
Borussia Dortmund will kommende Woche Lucien Favre als Trainer vorstellen


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Bon Esprit said:


> I don't like Martin Kind either. But without him there wouldn't be pro football in Hannover. Having those idiotic ultras around is no fun. No sane player would choose H96 over any other team if they know they'll play in a mortuary.




People like Martin Kind get away with so much because ordinary fans think there's no alternative to their money. Hannover is a big enough city/region that Hannover 96 should be in the top divisions regardless of whether a local hearing aid manufacturer decides to get involved. Ultras might mostly be naive, idealistic kids aged 14-22 led by 30+ 'career fans', but their idealism and naivety makes them instinctively suspicious of individuals like Kind..which means they sometimes might just be right. And in this case the principle in German football that no individual should entirely control a football club is on the line, which means the stakes are more than just Hannover 96's footballing success.


----------



## Bon Esprit

When Kind took over H96 was bankrupt. That's a matter of fact. And nobody in this region wanted to help them out. There ain't much money here. TUI has financial trobles themself and we don't have much indusrty here. I'm living in the eastern part of the city: I can see from my house what Hannover is today. A bunch of insurance companies like Hannover Rück, HDI, Concordia or VHV. And none of them wanted a part of the club (ex. HDI arena deal).
I hate to defend Martin Kind, but that's the way it is.


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> People like Martin Kind get away with so much because ordinary fans think there's no alternative to their money. Hannover is a big enough city/region that Hannover 96 should be in the top divisions regardless of whether a local hearing aid manufacturer decides to get involved. Ultras might mostly be naive, idealistic kids aged 14-22 led by 30+ 'career fans', but their idealism and naivety makes them instinctively suspicious of individuals like Kind..which means they sometimes might just be right. And in this case the principle in German football that no individual should entirely control a football club is on the line, which means the stakes are more than just Hannover 96's footballing success.




Nothing is on the line. The DFB refusing to push back on Leipzig already proved that they know 50+1 wouldn't hold up if challenged in court. So it's already dead even if the killing blow has yet to be struck & we still maintain the facade, so that the league doesn't plunge headfirst into the shit-show that the EPL became. But even if Kind dropped 96 tomorrow, 50+1 would still have no teeth.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Bon Esprit said:


> When Kind took over H96 was bankrupt. That's a matter of fact. And nobody in this region wanted to help them out. There ain't much money here. TUI has financial trobles themself and we don't have much indusrty here. I'm living in the eastern part of the city: I can see from my house what Hannover is today. A bunch of insurance companies like Hannover Rück, HDI, Concordia or VHV. And none of them wanted a part of the club (ex. HDI arena deal).
> I hate to defend Martin Kind, but that's the way it is.




Hannover may not be confused with Dubai or Monaco as far as money is concerned but in relative terms it's not like other German cities generally have massive corporate firepower either. If Kind hadn't got involved, it would have been a longer path but definitely a possible one. Magdeburg is going to be promoted to the 2.Liga and that's an economic wasteland compared to Hannover.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

cgf said:


> Nothing is on the line. The DFB refusing to push back on Leipzig already proved that they know 50+1 wouldn't hold up if challenged in court. So it's already dead even if the killing blow has yet to be struck & we still maintain the facade, so that the league doesn't plunge headfirst into the ****-show that the EPL became. But even if Kind dropped 96 tomorrow, 50+1 would still have no teeth.




Greed and hunger for commercial investment are the driving forces whether it is in DFL or DFB, but even a weakened, thin line like 50+1 is better than no line at all.


----------



## Bon Esprit

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Hannover may not be confused with Dubai or Monaco as far as money is concerned but in relative terms it's not like other German cities generally have massive corporate firepower either. If Kind hadn't got involved, it would have been a longer path but definitely a possible one. Magdeburg is going to be promoted to the 2.Liga and that's an economic wasteland compared to Hannover.




I don't want to argue with you. Financial firepower of a city/region is one thing. The willingness to get involed in a sportsclub is another. Hannover has approx. the same size as Bremen, Stuttgart, Dresden or Leipzig. Leipzig has their sugardaddy, Stuttgart (now) has Daimler,Dresden has nothing and Bremen has a special history. 
You can trust me when I say that nobody wanted to touch Hannover 96 back in the late nineties when they played in the Regionalliga. They even asked then prime minister Schröder for help.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Bon Esprit said:


> I don't want to argue with you. Financial firepower of a city/region is one thing. The willingness to get involed in a sportsclub is another. Hannover has approx. the same size as Bremen, Stuttgart, Dresden or Leipzig. Leipzig has their sugardaddy, Stuttgart (now) has Daimler,Dresden has nothing and Bremen has a special history.
> You can trust me when I say that nobody wanted to touch Hannover 96 back in the late nineties when they played in the Regionalliga. They even asked then prime minister Schröder for help.




Nobody wants to touch badly run clubs because they're bottomless pits for money. The first step to fix it is to cease being a badly run club and become a well-run club. Once you do that, you can see everything else fall in place. "Saviors" like Kind sometimes help the club survive and even prosper..many other times they just complicate already messy situations (see 1860 and HSV).


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Greed and hunger for commercial investment are the driving forces whether it is in DFL or DFB, but even a weakened, thin line like 50+1 is better than no line at all.




50+1 is not a weakened line, it's no line at all. The only reason it hasn't yet officially been struck down is because it's a good marketting-point for everyone...and because no one has yet needed it to be...

Not even Kind ended up challenging it in court...because the DFL relented to his demands to keep it from going to court & being struck down by EU law. If any one of these benefactors like Kind, Hoppe, Kuhne, the Red Bull guy, VW, Bayer, Audi, etc., ever wanted to do something that 50+1 didn't allow, and the association didn't just let them do it anyway, then we'd see 50+1 struck down right quick.

But since it doesn't mean anything other than good PR for the entire league, no one has needed to take it to court yet.


----------



## Deficient Mode

@cgf is actually Hoeneß. It all makes sense now.


----------



## cgf

Now you see why Cheetoh was so adamant about trying to take my greencard away


----------



## Bon Esprit

Various sources say Manuel Neuer won't be able to play a game this season. As much as I trust ter Steegen as much I don't like the idea of Neuer being a bench warmer at the WC.


----------



## cgf

I'd usually be with you, but MAtS always had absurd talent, and he's become absolutely world-class in recent years. So that would worry me a lot less than if Boa is on the bench in Russia and Jogi decides to play Rudiger in his spot instead of Sule / Tah / Vogt.


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> I'd usually be with you, but MAtS always had absurd talent, and he's become absolutely world-class in recent years. So that would worry me a lot less than if Boa is on the bench in Russia and Jogi decides to play Rudiger in his spot instead of Sule / Tah / Vogt.



That's right. Ter Steegen is trustworthy. I'm more concerned Löw puts Neuer on the bench like Podolski as a mascot.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> That's right. Ter Steegen is trustworthy. I'm more concerned Löw puts Neuer on the bench like Podolski as a mascot.




Ah gotcha. I don't think I'd care if Jogi did do that...so long as Neuer's presence didn't interfere in the locker room & prevent MAtS from taking full command of the backline; which is why now that I've thought about it I'd prefer Neuer just stay home & recuperate if he's unlikely to be fit. Let MAtS do his thing without Neuer's presence hanging over him.

But in general, I'm much more ok with wasting that 3rd goalie spot on a non-official mascot, than one of the 20 other spots like we used to do with the human victory cigar


----------



## Bon Esprit

It's gotta be a very interesting last matchday tomorrow (at least on paper). I can only recognize a single meaningless game (Bremen at Mainz).


----------



## Bure80

Maradonna has a very good taste.


----------



## Albatros

It was known to be about to happen, but still good to see:


----------



## cgf

Now that almost all of their big talents have moved on from the U17s, there's not much risk to giving Miro his coaching start.

Plus he could well end up with the top job in no time, since Bayern have apparently decided that they're done with that whole "hiring qualified & competent coaches" thing since Pep left.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I wasn’t sure that Dortmund could actually do badly enough today to not qualify for the UCL. Woke up and looked at the lineup. Disgraceful. Might be the dumbest lineup he’s played all season.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Game over for HSV. WOB 1:0.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Wow a lot of scoring in the first 7 minutes.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pulisic RWB


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

The WOB goal kind of took the fun out of this as Cologne won't score 2 in Wolfsburg.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bürki oh dear. Terrible control. Terribly weak clear. Beaten near post. 

LMAO


----------



## Halladay

Schurrle choked.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Ahahahahahaha Schürrle


----------



## Deficient Mode

Hector oh my goodness. What a turn and chip. Looking like Ronaldo Fenomeno or something out there.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nice half so far lads. Getting close to Europa League qualification.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Schürrle's combination play is so terrible. I feel sort of bad for Stöger. His plan has been mostly good except for Schürrle. Dortmund have basically shut down Hoffenheim and had the far better chances, but so far they have been undone by shitty finishing and that fluky gaffe by Bürki.


----------



## PansCyans

Bayern getting torn apart.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Nice interchange between Guerreiro and Reus. I think we are qualified now.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Great combination by Schürrle and Guerreiro

Hoffenheim haven't done nearly enough to make up a 2 goal deficit this match. They don't seem to be trying either. As I said last week, I don't think anyone wants to make the 3rd and 4th CL spots.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Maybe not then.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Mistake there by Akanji, who has otherwise been good today imo


----------



## cgf

lol Stoger's gunna f*** this up, huh?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Anyone else get the sense that the US soccer television commentariat is even worse than their peers in hockey?



cgf said:


> lol Stoger's gunna **** this up, huh?




Not really his fault for the most part.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

We haven't been _that_ bad, but what annoys me is that in the most important game of the season you leave your best player on the bench, and include the veterans club of Schurrle, Schmelzer, Sahin who are some of the biggest problems in the squad. It also seems like Guerreiro hasn't played in 2018 yet, but he's done pretty well today so far. I know changes were forced, but it seems like Stoeger went way too far out of his way with the lineup selection today.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Anyone else get the sense that the US soccer television commentariat is even worse than their peers in hockey?
> 
> 
> 
> Not really his fault for the most part.




I'm not watching it so I can't say


----------



## ecemleafs

dortmund look like trash. this formation has managed to play with 5 or 6 wide players and yet rarely threaten on the flanks.


----------



## Deficient Mode

lol Dortmund 

Piszczek, Akanji, Bürki all didn't want the ball lol


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

2 more to go, and we're out. Stoeger is really going to ruin this.


----------



## ecemleafs

and note to dortmund. ur down 3-1 and have the ball in attachking position. dont play the ball out of play to help out an "injured" opponent.


----------



## Albatros

Hoffenheim ready to embarrass German football in Europe again next season, pity for Leverkusen who have much more potential.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Albatros said:


> Hoffenheim ready to embarrass German football in Europe again next season, pity for Leverkusen who have much more potential.




German football couldn't possibly be more embarrassing than it already was this year. Who cares about CL and EL embarrassment when all your teams after Bayern are so obviously mediocre to terrible in their own league?


----------



## Bon Esprit

LOL penatlty shot at Leverkusen. I never root against H96. But do it.

Kies, do it.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Leverkusen penalty. No more room for error for Dortmund if they score.

Just kidding. VAR took it away.


----------



## Halladay

55 points for a 3rd place team is terrible.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Halladay said:


> 55 points for a 3rd place team is terrible.




Worst in 20 years! Schalke worst 2nd place team in 13 years! Bigger clubs in the league really need to move away from the pressing craze now, because it's just pushing everyone other than Bayern toward parity/mediocrity.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Hannover pull one back, making Dortmund's position even more secure.


----------



## Bon Esprit

FCK HSV. your fans are embarrassing.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> FCK HSV. your fans are embarrassing.




LMAO their team won the match today too. The ultras just have to throw a fit so we don't forget about how special they are.


----------



## PansCyans

Wild scenes in Hamburg


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Are they really going to try and finish this game?


----------



## Savant

I love the Bundesliga


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Savant said:


> I love the Bundesliga



If West Ham got relegated, I'm almost positive it would have been worse.


----------



## Deficient Mode

I feel bad for those police horses.



Savant said:


> I love the Bundesliga




Entertaining for all the wrong reasons this year lol.


----------



## Bon Esprit

In North Germany we say: Tschüss!. And I add: And never come back, you arrogant xxxx


----------



## Bon Esprit

Next thing that has to happen is the storks win vs WOB. Go storks, go.


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> I feel bad for those police horses.
> 
> 
> 
> Entertaining for all the wrong reasons this year lol.



But its entertaining!

And yeah - poor horses


----------



## sabremike

Good on Leipzig qualifying for Europe, love that they bother horribly pretentious fans. The peak of the anti-RB hysteria was the Bayern Munich fans protesting evil corporate influence ruining the game while doing a tifo for their corporate sponsor.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Savant said:


> But its entertaining!
> 
> And yeah - poor horses




Yeah, it's entertaing. Police officers and stewards who have to calm down those idiots don't count. I always thougt our H96 were the worst fans, but this crap proves me wrong. have fun, you Hamburg idiots, with Dresden hools next year. Where's Rostock playing these days?


----------



## sabremike

Bon Esprit said:


> Yeah, it's entertaing. Police officers and stewards who have to calm down those idiots don't count. I always thougt our H96 were the worst fans, but this crap proves me wrong. have fun, you Hamburg idiots, with Dresden hools next year. Where's Rostock playing these days?



Just drop a bomb on them and be done. I have very limited tolerance for people acting like morons at sporting events. Want to engage in violence? Go join an army, or go take up boxing or MMA.


----------



## Deficient Mode

sabremike said:


> Just drop a bomb on them and be done. I have very limited tolerance for people acting like morons at sporting events. Want to engage in violence? Go join an army, or go take up boxing or MMA.






sabremike said:


> Good on Leipzig qualifying for Europe, love that they bother horribly pretentious fans. The peak of the anti-RB hysteria was the Bayern Munich fans protesting evil corporate influence ruining the game while doing a tifo for their corporate sponsor.




Can't decide which of these posts is worse


----------



## sabremike

Deficient Mode said:


> Can't decide which of these posts is worse



So you support violence at sporting events? You're fine with that?


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Deficient Mode said:


> Can't decide which of these posts is worse



The one condoning murder because of ...well violence. Clearly that one.

What a f***ing moron.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

sabremike said:


> So you support violence at sporting events? You're fine with that?




So you support killing because...


----------



## sabremike

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> So you support killing because...



If you commit violence against someone else that changes things. I'm sorry I'm sick and tired of fans acting like thugs. In this country I'm sick of how burning cars and looting stores is the accepted "celebration". Again if you enjoy commiting acts of violence go take up MMA.


----------



## Deficient Mode

sabremike said:


> If you commit violence against someone else that changes things. I'm sorry I'm sick and tired of fans acting like thugs. In this country I'm sick of how burning cars and looting stores is the accepted "celebration". Again if you enjoy commiting acts of violence go take up MMA.




Guess you'll have to drop a bomb on the people who dropped the first bomb then


----------



## samabam

sabremike said:


> If you commit violence against someone else that changes things. I'm sorry I'm sick and tired of fans acting like thugs. In this country I'm sick of how burning cars and looting stores is the accepted "celebration". Again if you enjoy commiting acts of violence go take up MMA.




So according to you, being a thug justifies capital punishment?


----------



## sabremike

samabam said:


> So according to you, being a thug justifies capital punishment?



You're right, I'll settle for throwing them behind bars and swallowing the key. I've had to deal with idiots trying to attack me and my friends going to MLS matches so I have something of a zero tolerance approach to that type of behavior.


----------



## samabam

sabremike said:


> You're right, I'll settle for throwing them behind bars and swallowing the key. I've had to deal with idiots trying to attack me and my friends going to MLS matches so I have something of a zero tolerance approach to that type of behavior.




I dont think you'll find someone who disagrees, that this behaviour is punishable, but capital punishment or a life time in prison just seems a tad excessive. Right now there aren't even any reports of people being injured, soooo live-long stadium ban? sure, livetime in prison? hell no...dropping a bomb on them? Now who is being a thug?


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

sabremike said:


> If you commit violence against someone else that changes things. I'm sorry I'm sick and tired of fans acting like thugs. In this country I'm sick of how burning cars and looting stores is the accepted "celebration". Again if you enjoy commiting acts of violence go take up MMA.



Proportionality


----------



## sabremike

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Proportionality



While dropping a bomb obviously isn't going to happen and is more me just venting my disgust that reminds me of a Thomas Sowell quote: " Using the concept of proportionality when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor America should've retaliated by bombing a Japanese harbor and done nothing more".


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

sabremike said:


> While dropping a bomb obviously isn't going to happen and is more me just venting my disgust that reminds me of a Thomas Sowell quote: " Using the concept of proportionality when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor America should've retaliated by bombing a Japanese harbor and done nothing more".



Yeah?


----------



## Bon Esprit

So HSV finally has to pay for the crap their management(s) are doing for ages.

Charlie Dörfel, Uwe Seeler, Rudi Kargus, Manfred Kaltz, Felix Magath, Schorsch Folkert, Uli Stein, Thomas vo Heesen, Horst Hrubesch, Sergej Barbarez and many, many alltime greats will thank you.


----------



## sabremike

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Yeah?



If I kidnap someone and hold them captive for 10 days before the authorities find me and free them my punishment should be 10 days in jail?


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

sabremike said:


> If I kidnap someone and hold them captive for 10 days before the authorities find me and free them my punishment should be 10 days in jail?




You're insane.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Can we please stop talking about if "dropping a bomb" on hools is the right term?
Today is a very sad day in German football history. HSV (as much as I dislike this fans/mangement) got relegated.

It's like the Habs/Maple Leafs fold or Arsenal/United get relegated. Yes, despite the fact Hamburg sucked forever, it's that huge for the city and the league.


----------



## Albatros

It's not all bad for Hamburg, having the derby will also bring new life and help both clubs going forward.


----------



## sabremike

I'll add this: there is only one episode of violence over a sporting event that I know where I not only condone it but also celebrate it: in the early days of MLS a group of boneheads (racist skinheads) tried to infiltrate and take over our supporters section to further their own worthless cause. Members of our group, the Empire Supporters Club, weren't going to tolerate that so when the boneheads tried to show up our members beat the crap out of them and they fled with their tails between their legs never to return.


----------



## cgf

nice to see Americans are still exactly as terrifyingly bloodthirty as the rest of the world already thinks they are


----------



## DoyleG

Albatros said:


> It's not all bad for Hamburg, having the derby will also bring new life and help both clubs going forward.




Like St. Pauli gives two shits about Hamburg SV.


----------



## Albatros

They absolutely do, whatever their pseudo-anarchist corporate image.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Eh what happened in Hamburg was neither surprising given the context nor all that bad. The same thing or similar things (or worse) would happen at all normal clubs in the same situation. Gotta love the hyperventilation over minor disturbances like that.


----------



## Albatros

The sometimes rowdy and always idiotic Braunschweig visitors were too shocked to attempt anything much today, getting relegated after a 6:2 demolition despite leading twice is pretty brutal. Especially as even a draw would have been enough for them to stay up.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Albatros said:


> The sometimes rowdy and always idiotic Braunschweig visitors were too shocked to attempt anything much today, getting relegated after a 6:2 demolition despite leading twice is pretty brutal. Especially as even a draw would have been enough for them to stay up.




They also lost essentially against Kiel's B team which is pretty bad. I feel more for Aue to be honest. Clear goal not given, denied two penalties..can't blame them for thinking they got screwed over by the officials. Of course, officials actually being held accountable for misconduct would be a new thing..


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Apparently those two fellows made some sort of clerical mistake when declaring for Germany's national team.


----------



## Bon Esprit

The worst part is, that Gündogan wrote "For my president" on his shirt.
Many back in Germany will not like that. The press already is all over it.


----------



## Bon Esprit

I expect some surprises tomorrow. I sometimes wonder how dumb some footballers can be.


----------



## Albatros

It doesn't improve my opinion of Gündoğan but also to make it a scandal is overblown, clearly he has the right to express his political opinion.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> It doesn't improve my opinion of Gündoğan but also to make it a scandal is overblown, clearly he has the right to express his political opinion.




Steinmeier is Gündogan's president, not Erdogan. He and Özil weren't men enough to choose Türkey like Sahin did.


----------



## Albatros

They're dual citizens as far as I know, and as such have much the same political rights and duties in Turkey as they do in Germany. Perhaps the DFB shouldn't select dual citizens if that is to be seen as a problem.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Bon Esprit said:


> The worst part is, that Gündogan wrote "For my president" on his shirt.
> Many back in Germany will not like that. The press already is all over it.




Well, given how much these two guys were portrayed as symbols of successful integration by the DFB media machine, the fact that he, as one of the most visible individuals in the Turkish migrant community, professes his loyalty to the Turkish quasi-dictator Erdogan is a gut and perhaps reality check for some.

I'm not surprised he feels the way he does, it matches my own experience with the Turkish community, but it's pretty extraordinary in how ill-advised this particular publicity stunt is.


----------



## Evilo

Please. Gundogan is born in Germany. Spent his life in Germany and chose to represent Germany. So when he says Erdogan is his president, I can see the problem.
Saying it's normal for dual citizens is quite weird.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Gündogan makes is even worse. He says he did it, because his parents are Turkish citizens and he wanted to show respect to their country and he didn#t want to make a political statemet.
Well, Ilkay, this doesn't explain why you said/wrote "My President". Özil isn't the brightest candle on the cake, but Gündogan is more intelligent to do such dumb things.
https://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/ilkay-guendogan/erklaert-das-erdogan-treffen-55695586.bild.html


----------



## cgf

Just because you're still connected to the country of your heritage doesn't mean you're not assimilating & connected to the country you live in. My sister was born n raised in the US, but she's still very german & also still very russian. 

I understand that many want us to pick a country and abandon the other(s), but that's just not how it usually works when you grow up between cultures, both countries are part of you. That's why when I get off a flight from Chicago to Berlin I feel like I've come home, and when I get off a flight from Berlin to Chicago I feel the same thing.

So "my president" just means he (stupidly) supports Erdogan to me. i.e. Steinmeier is my president, but so are Cheeto & Putin.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

No-one faults them for feeling an emotional and cultural connection to the homeland of their parents. It's normal. But essentially campaigning for the less-than-democratic and quite nationalist president of that homeland, who also has shown himself to be less than friendly to the country you were born and raised in, is a questionable signal.

We have seen Erdogan's attempts to host campaign events in Germany and organize a support structure for himself among Turks in Germany via the various German-Turkish organizations over which the Turkish state has a degree of control. This was rightfully seen as an attempt to organize a 'state within the state' in Germany. As a result, this is a particularly touchy situation and clearly Gundogan and Ozil are being used to drum up support for Erdogan's regime among Turks in Germany.

And if a famous Russian-American - who represents the U.S. in international sports - campaigned for Putin and expressed his loyalty to Putin, you bet there'd be pushback and questions asked.


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> No-one faults them for feeling an emotional and cultural connection to the homeland of their parents. It's normal. But essentially campaigning for the less-than-democratic and quite nationalist president of that homeland, who also has shown himself to be less than friendly to the country you were born and raised in, is a questionable signal.
> 
> We have seen Erdogan's attempts to host campaign events in Germany and organize a support structure for himself among Turks in Germany via the various German-Turkish organizations over which the Turkish state has a degree of control. This was rightfully seen as an attempt to organize a 'state within the state' in Germany. As a result, this is a particularly touchy situation and clearly Gundogan and Ozil are being used to drum up support for Erdogan's regime among Turks in Germany.
> 
> And if a famous Russian-American - who represents the U.S. in international sports - campaigned for Putin and expressed his loyalty to Putin, you bet there'd be pushback and questions asked.




I don't disagree that it was dumb, for all of those reason, I just don't see it as some big betrayal of his german heritage. Plenty of Russian kids who grew up in the US support Putin, even though they'd never choose to leave the US to go back to Russia.

And as we know now, cheerleading for Russia is what american patriots do & it's how you accidentally get elected president


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> I don't disagree that it was dumb, for all of those reason, I just don't see it as some big betrayal of his german heritage. Plenty of Russian kids who grew up in the US support Putin, even though they'd never choose to leave the US to go back to Russia.
> 
> And as we know now, cheerleading for Russia is what american patriots do & it's how you accidentally get elected president



As tmyk stated both were used as role models for successful integration, Ozil got a bambi for intigration (just like bushido btw.) and know they pose with Erdogan and one calls him y president. They can do that if they'd play for Turkey. Nobody (except the leftwings) would care.
Today they (probably) represent Germany as players of the most important sportsteam in the country. Gündogan did it on purpose.


----------



## Albatros

As if Germans without immigration background couldn't publicly support dubious political figures, even completely foreign ones.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

That was stupid by Breitner - and the many other young radicals in West Germany at the time who embraced Mao - and a serious problem (see RAF terrorism), but not really comparable.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> As tmyk stated both were used as role models for successful integration, Ozil got a bambi for intigration (just like bushido btw.) and know they pose with Erdogan and one calls him y president. They can do that if they'd play for Turkey. Nobody (except the leftwings) would care.
> Today they (probably) represent Germany as players of the most important sportsteam in the country. Gündogan did it on purpose.




That's what I'm saying, integration is a complex & multi-faceted thing, it's not simply assimilation. That's why Ilkay's stupid support of that tyrant isn't at all contradictory to successfully integrating into german society...even if we ignore, as albatros pointed out, that stupid political statements aren't exactly unprecedented when it comes to german athletes.


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> That was stupid by Breitner - and the many other young radicals in West Germany at the time who embraced Mao - and a serious problem (see RAF terrorism), but not really comparable.




There's obviously different context/details, but it reinforces the point that german footballers making idiotic political statements isn't anything new


----------



## Deficient Mode

Erdogan is very bad but is he really any worse than literally every US president of the last 50+ years, one of whom every successful North American athlete has met? Merkel is no angel either. Athletes are for the most part not political radicals and are just awestruck in the presence of power like the vast majority of people are when they meet a prominent politician. 

The calls to punish them or ban them from the team are insane.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Also:


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Erdogan is very bad but is he really any worse than literally every US president of the last 50+ years, one of whom every successful North American athlete has met? Merkel is no angel either. Athletes are for the most part not political radicals and are just awestruck in the presence of power like the vast majority of people are when they meet a prominent politician.
> 
> The calls to punish them or ban them from the team are insane.




Dude...I'm happy to point out that most US presidents have been mass murderers; including the american-left's beloved Barry & his despicable drone program; but that is absolutely a false equivalency. Erdogan's suppression of his kurdish population alone puts him in a different tier. You'd have to go back to the Jim Crow era to find US politicians who have so clearly targetted & assault a subsect of their own citizens. And the drug war isn't the same thing, the drug war is a dumb, horrible & racist thing, but it wasn't intentional fought against Black folks.

And that's before we get into Erdogan's attempts to re-write the constitution to let himself be elected King, like Putin did. Even FDR just took advantage of a lack of laws restricting him, he didn't actively push to have the laws restricting his term in office changed...sparking a coup that nearly spiralled into a full blown civil war.

Agreed with the second half of your post though. Just cause they're being used to make a political statement doesn't mean they're conciously making that statement. Few footballers are as intelligent or eloquent as Kramer.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Deficient Mode said:


> Erdogan is very bad but is he really any worse than literally every US president of the last 50+ years, one of whom every successful North American athlete has met? Merkel is no angel either. Athletes are for the most part not political radicals and are just awestruck in the presence of power like the vast majority of people are when they meet a prominent politician.
> 
> The calls to punish them or ban them from the team are insane.




Man you deserve a hug.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

cgf said:


> Dude...I'm happy to acknowledge that most US presidents have been mass murderers, including Barry & his despicable drone program, but that is absolutely a false equivalency. Erdogan's suppression of his kurdish population alone puts him in a different tier. You'd have to go back to the Jim Crow era to find US politicians who have so clearly targetted & assault a subsect of their own citizens. And the drug war isn't the same thing, the drug war is a dumb, horrible & racist thing, but it wasn't intentional fought against Black folks.
> 
> And that's before we get into Erdogan's attempts to re-write the constitution to let himself be elected King, like Putin did. Even FDR just took advantage of a lack of laws restricting him, he didn't actively campaign to have the laws that restricted his term in office changed...sparking a coup that nearly spiraled into a full blown civil war.




So, murdering millions is more or less acceptable as long as they're a bunch of foreigners...

Erdogan is wore because he does it to his own citizens (citizens that want to form their own country btw)


----------



## Bon Esprit

Tomorrow the provisionally WC roster will be announced. Any surprises expected?

Gnabry and Stindl will be out due to injury. I don't think Götze and Schürrle won't be playing in Russia.


----------



## Albatros

The former Germany U21 player Deniz Naki has been treated as something of a hero in Germany after he got in trouble for his activism in Turkey. And I like the guy, don't get me wrong, but it tells something about German hypocrisy when collaborating with Germany's own ally is treated as something reprehensible, but doing so with groups that are forbidden in Germany as terrorist organizations is all cool.


----------



## cgf

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> So, murdering millions is more or less acceptable as long as they're a bunch of foreigners...
> 
> Erdogan is wore because he does it to his own citizens (citizens that want to form their own country btw)




Erdogan's body count outside of his own borders isn't exactly non-existent either...but yes. Murder is even more despicable when you are murdering the people that you were given power in order to be responsible for; regardless of whether they support you or are actively pushing for independence from you.

Whenever you are put in a position of power, the very least you have to do with it is to protect the people under you/that you are responsible for. It's the basic compact between rulers & their subjects, or bosses & employees, that has underlined why the collective has entrusted individuals with greater power over the whole since the dawn of man. The children of Yemen & Pakistan that Obama's drone program made fear blue skies, didn't give Barry the power he had so that he could protect him with it; Kurdish turks, on the other hand, were complicit in bringing Erdogan to power and were absolutely his responsibility...especially since he is the one claiming to be their sovereign.

All murder is despicable, but there's no question that there are degrees to it. Murdering a violent psychopath that has kidnapped you, is not the same as murdering your sister's child after you volunteered to babysit for them so that they could have a day to themselves, ya know? I hate to quote cheech martin as much as I have been the past week, but "responsibility is a heavy responsibility".


----------



## Deficient Mode

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> So, murdering millions is more or less acceptable as long as they're a bunch of foreigners...
> 
> Erdogan is wore because he does it to his own citizens (citizens that want to form their own country btw)




This is exactly the problem. Killing innocent foreigners and overthrowing democratically elected or at least stable governments abroad is not nearly as much of a problem as subverting the democracy of your own country to so many people, even if the former affects far far more people, as US foreign policy has.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Tomorrow the provisionally WC roster will be announced. Any surprises expected?
> 
> Gnabry and Stindl will be out due to injury. I don't think Götze and Schürrle won't be playing in Russia.




If Schürrle makes the team it would be a farce. I think we all have an opinion of Götze's case by now.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> Tomorrow the provisionally WC roster will be announced. Any surprises expected?
> 
> Gnabry and Stindl will be out due to injury. I don't think Götze and Schürrle won't be playing in Russia.




I'm expecting no Dortmund players to be picked, Ginter to be BMG's lone representative. While Baumann & Uth will be the only TSG players that Jogi will give a real shot. LeGo will go because of his move to Bayern, but Meyer will be ignored even though Jogi's going to ignore Weigl, Geiger & Kramer as well.

I'm going to throw out Havertz, Arp & GL Itter as teenagers who could be on the provisional squad & may even make it as the 23rd man so that they can experience preparing for the WM; while giving the locker-room some more of that youthful exuberance that Werner & Sane should pump into the side at their first major tourney as starters.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Your analogy is all well and good however, it fails spectacular short of what you are actually saying or trying to say. For one thing the children of Yemen,Chile, Argentina,Grenada, Iraq,Iran, Nicaragua, Cuba, Syria, Japan, Korea, Vietnam,Palestine, and many others are not psychopaths. Pick any of those or the dozen other massacres and compare it with Erdogan/kurds and he ends up looking like like f***ing Joffery comparing Ramsey.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Deficient Mode said:


> This is exactly the problem. Killing innocent foreigners and overthrowing democratically elected or at least stable governments abroad is not nearly as much of a problem as subverting the democracy of your own country to so many people, even if the former affects far far more people, as US foreign policy has.




Fisk sums it up nicely... collateral damage. SMH.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

That's all ill say... as this isn't the place to talk about this and will just derail the thread until a mod gets fed up.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> This is exactly the problem. Killing innocent foreigners and overthrowing democratically elected or at least stable governments abroad is not nearly as much of a problem as subverting the democracy of your own country to so many people, even if the former affects far far more people, as US foreign policy has.




Shall we go through the histories and stack up how many rulers contributed to the betterment of humanity despite terrorizing foreigners against the rulers who contributed to the betterment of humanity despite terrorizing only their own citizens?...although we'll have some troubles finding too many examples of rulers who terrorized their citizens & didn't at least try to invade their neighbors. Both are awful & massive problems for our species, but to draw an equivalency between the two is just Trumpian.

Or are you two having too much fun with your hawkish strawmen to engage with someone who isn't already "on your team"? ;-)


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

I'd love to see that... betterment of who's humanity? Pm if you wish.


----------



## cgf

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Your analogy is all well and good however, it fails spectacular short of what you are actually saying or trying to say. For one thing the children of Yemen,Chile, Argentina,Grenada, Iraq,Iran, Nicaragua, Cuba, Syria, Japan, Korea, Vietnam,Palestine, and many others are not psychopaths. Pick any of those or the dozen other massacres and compare it with Erdogan/kurds and he ends up looking like like ****ing Joffery comparing Ramsey.




My analogy was solely meant to see if we can at least agree on the basic premise that all murder isn't equal.

No where did I say that the kurdish separatists, that were able to fight off ISIS, are toothless infants nor did I say that all non-american children are violent psychopaths...although I can see why it would be easier for ya if that were my position ;-)


----------



## cgf

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> I'd love to see that... betterment of who's humanity? Pm if you wish.




The species on the whole. And the onus is on you guys to come up with a list since you're the ones taking up the position that contradicts these ancient historical concepts about the contracts between rulers & subjects. So if you wanna make such a list for me, go ahead, if you do I'll come up with my list.



Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Fisk sums it up nicely... collateral damage. SMH.




Glad you've finally come over to the good side. Now lets go murder some foreigners because that's totally what I said!


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

cgf said:


> My analogy was solely meant to see if we can at least agree on the basic premise that all murder isn't equal.
> 
> No were did imply that the kurdish separates who fought off ISIS are toothless infants nor that all non-american children are violent psychopaths...although I can see why it would be easier for ya if that were my position ;-)




Did you really have to say it? It's pretty obvious not all is equal.

Now can we agree that citizens are all innocent regardless of a piece of paper that dictates where they're from? If so, why is one life valued more over the other?


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

cgf said:


> The species on the whole. And the onus is on you guys to come up with a list since you're the ones taking up the position that contradicts these ancient historical concepts about the contracts between rulers & subjects. So if you wanna make such a list for me, go ahead, if you do I'll come up with my list.
> 
> 
> 
> Glad you've finally come over to the good side. Now lets go murder some foreigners because that's totally what I said!





Wow way to deflect. Pretty clear you just want to argue for the sake of it. I never once made that claim.... the argument starts with American presidents are as equally as bad as Erdogan. What's the difference between killing your own citizen as opposed a foreigner? Ill give you a small hint nothing.

A) because its human lives and nobody deserves that treatment.
B) See A
C) See B

Get it now? Perfect thanks.


----------



## cgf

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Did you really have to say it? It's pretty obvious not all is equal.
> 
> Now can we agree that citizens are all innocent regardless of a piece of paper that dictates where they're from? If so, why is one life valued more over the other?




Of course they are innocent, thus why I use the word murder & have mentioned how terrible murdering anyone is in every god dman post. And I never said anything about placing relative value on human lives as that has nothing to do with my point.

Which has to do with your responsibilities as a leader and the ancient implication that someone who is entrusted with great power by the collective is responsible to that collective to an even higher degree than they are the human-collective. That because your power is a responsibility put upon you by the people you are responsible for, the greatest sin is to abuse that power against them...even above the multitude of other reprehensible sins that a ruler can commit.

This is why the horrors of Caesar, in the classic telling of his life, start with the crossing of the rubicon, his civil war, and his tyranny as a ruler; not with the merciless genocide of my Gaulic ancestors. It's about turning against the people who entrusted you to protect them being even worse, not about the slaughtering of innocent people who had never even heard of you being anything less than horrific.


----------



## cgf

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Wow way to deflect. Pretty clear you just want to argue for the sake of it. I never once made that claim.... the argument starts with American presidents are as equally as bad as Erdogan. What's the difference between killing your own citizen as opposed a foreigner? Ill give you a small hint nothing.
> 
> A) because its human lives and nobody deserves that treatment.
> B) See A
> C) See B
> 
> Get it now? Perfect thanks.




I get what you are saying I just don't agree. It would be much worse & more morally reprehensible for me to murder my sister than for some unknown serial killer to do it. The victim is constant but the act becomes more or less evil based on who's doing the evil act. Doesn't mean the act ceases to be evil, just that some evil is more evil.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

cgf said:


> I get what you are saying I just don't agree. It would be much worse & more morally reprehensible for me to murder my sister than for some unknown serial killer to do it. The victim is constant but the act becomes more or less evil based on who's doing the evil act. Doesn't mean the act ceases to be evil, just that some evil is more evil.




You keep making it personal with the family reference... but it's not family? We are talking about millions of INNOCENT (not serial killer or psychopath) random humans. You keep comparing it to serial killers and a family member. It's clearly NOT that. 

It is amusing that you're trying to justify it with the personal element though. It really is a nice touch and I've never seen it before. Like I said I get easily sucked into these arguments IRL... you can have the last word to try and justify you're insane position.


----------



## cgf

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> You keep making it personal with the family reference... but it's not family? We are talking about millions of INNOCENT (not serial killer or psychopath) random humans. You keep comparing it to serial killers and a family member. It's clearly NOT that.
> 
> It is amusing that you're trying to justify it with the personal element though. It really is a nice touch and I've never seen it before. Like I said I get easily sucked into these arguments IRL... you can have the last word to try and justify you're insane position.




Right, I'm using hypotheticals to illustrate a point to see if we can't agree on the fundamental notion that the relationship between the murderer and their victim effects the evilness of the act. Which has been my only point since I first quoted DM on this.

You guys either don't agree with that premise & believe in a black-&-white world, or you don't believe that a politician has any responsibility to his citizens. Which I'm big enough to acknowledge you can do without needing to be criminally insane...although I'm sure that it helps ;-)


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

What the heck do US presidents have to do with this? The issue here is the Turkish community in Germany and how heated political, religious and ethnic conflicts from Turkey - and influences like Erdogan's autocratic Islamism - can affect German society. It's not like we're talking about enjoying a kebab and drinking Turkish coffee here, we're talking about the Kurdish conflict, the Syrian civil war, the rise of islamic nationalism, neo-Ottoman power fantasies in Turkey etc. People don't want to be party to those things, so it's kind of important for the Turkish community to distance itself from all that crap. These photos, the gifts etc. are the exact opposite of 'distancing'. They're embracing it. That's exactly what people are worried about.

And of course, the usual suspects have to defend it. If a national team player posed with Marine Le Pen and expressed his sympathies for her, they'd probably be the first to ask for that guy to be kicked off the team.


----------



## Albatros

Gündoğan and Özil giving their shirts to the President of Turkey in London doesn't make any unwilling German a party to anything. The "concerned citizens" looking for an opportunity to play Mimose can just mind their own business. If the DFB has a problem with such events then they don't have to nominate these players, beyond than that there's nothing to it.


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> it's kind of important for the Turkish community to distance itself from all that crap. These photos, the gifts etc. are the exact opposite of 'distancing'. They're embracing it. That's exactly what people are worried about.




 Oh yes, the classic: "Muslims must distance themselves from extremist" line. How predictable. 



TheMoreYouKnow said:


> And of course, the usual suspects have to defend it. If a national team player posed with Marine Le Pen and expressed his sympathies for her, they'd probably be the first to ask for that guy to be kicked off the team.




And you'd defend it if it were Le Pen or Trump. Almost like we criticize political expression based on our own political sympathies. Shocking revelation I know. Only right wingers though are such babies that they'll whine that their expression is being oppressed and then turn around and question someone else's loyalty to their country or whatever for taking a photo with a foreign politician.


----------



## cgf

Some of us would call them idiots in both scenarios, while simultaneously not saying that being idiots is suddenly un-german and means they should be barred from the NT. We're not talking about Di Canio here.

...and that tribalism from both liberals & "conservatives" contributes to the negative climate of our day, so you can both sticking those fingers your pointing at each other up your own asses. Plus that shit is extremely tedious for those of us who'd like to be able to discuss world events without everything having to be part of some partisan struggle against the other team.


----------



## Halladay

*Stop it with the politics.*


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Deficient Mode said:


> And you'd defend it if it were Le Pen or Trump. Almost like we criticize political expression based on our own political sympathies. Shocking revelation I know. .




I find it curious that your political sympathies rest with an arch-conservative religious autocrat who imprisons his political enemies, invades other countries, stirs up ethnic conflict etc. but so sorry, I forgot he is a Muslim so that means being an apologist for him is your natural so-called 'liberal' position.

(And if you don't want this to be political from a mod perspective, delete all of these posts, because I will respond to points directly aimed at me especially if communicated in such a dishonest fashion).


----------



## Deficient Mode

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> I find it curious that your political sympathies rest with an arch-conservative religious autocrat who imprisons his political enemies, invades other countries, stirs up ethnic conflict etc. but so sorry, I forgot he is a Muslim so that means being an apologist for him is your natural so-called 'liberal' position.
> 
> (And if you don't want this to be political from a mod perspective, delete all of these posts, because I will respond to points directly aimed at me especially if communicated in such a dishonest fashion).




Show me where I did that, sweetie

Liberal LMAO


----------



## Live in the Now

Let's leave it at that for real now, I haven't seen what you guys were doing. If you guys wanna talk about this PM each other. Everything else is just gonna be deleted really fast.


----------



## Bon Esprit

It is rumoured Sandro Wagner won't be part of the WC Roster.

update: According to sport1 Nils Petersen in.
Reus,and Rudy in


----------



## Bon Esprit

German roster:

Leno
Neuer
Ter Stegen
Trapp

Boateng
Hector
Ginter
Hummels
Plattenhardt
Rüdiger 
Tah
Brandt
Goretzka 
Kehdira
Müller
Petersen
Reus
Rudy
Sane
Özil
Gündogan
Draxler
Kimmich
Werner
Süle
Kroos


----------



## PansCyans

No Gotze


----------



## SchwenningerWildWing

Not that big of a surprise, his development in the last four years is not very good


----------



## Deficient Mode

Roster is fine. Few things should have been done differently but that's always the case. Happy at the shortage of BVB players.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Also bringing 6 CBs signals to me that Jogi is probably planning to play with 3 man back lines.


----------



## Albatros

Not very controversial, but dropping Sandro Wagner already is a surprise.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Wagner isn't good enough. I am surprised about Götze because Löw usually tends to favor those plays with national team experience and will give them additional chances even if their club form is bad. Götze didn't make the next step after the last World Cup and it's fair to consider that, but on the flip side..if he was from Stuttgart, he'd probably be starting for the team.


----------



## Albatros

Wagner scored 7 and assisted 2 goals in his last 10 league games, and in the national team has scored 5 in 8 matches so far. Petersen is not necessarily worse per se, but he has never played in the national team and his form is not as good. I think there should have been at least one hot striker in consideration.


----------



## cgf

lol Jogi is so predictable. Leno & Trapp over Baumann, Rudiger & Ginter over Vogt, Khedira’s corpse over anyone useful, a tall bum to be the “plan B” when Uth could fill that role while actually helping the NT, and no Gotze, Dahoud, Weigl, Meyer, Geiger, Demirbay, etc.

Hopefully the boys can stay healthy and Jogi’s roster mistakes don’t cost us like they did in 2016


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Goetze's club form isn't bad. People who don't watch him play say that. Stoeger is the reason he didn't make this squad. I guess its good for Dortmund, but the fact that he often left out his best player who was in great form this season is a disgrace, and more reason he needs to go.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Albatros said:


> Wagner scored 7 and assisted 2 goals in his last 10 league games, and in the national team has scored 5 in 8 matches so far. Petersen is not necessarily worse per se, but he has never played in the national team and his form is not as good. I think there should have been at least one hot striker in consideration.




Wagner is basically the 2nd choice striker for Bayern which means he's the Alexander Zickler of this age. 4 of his 5 goals for Germany came against San Marino and Azerbaijan. I will give him credit because at no point during his time at Duisburg, Werder or Hertha would I have ever imagined that he'd one day play for Bayern or Germany. He obviously worked hard, but he's a very limited player. 

I don't know if Petersen makes the final squad, and I don't know if he has the quality required to play vs top nations at a World Cup. But he has been a reliable goalscorer at Freiburg and at one point was definitely seen as a more talented player than Wagner (though his career has certainly taken an unusual detour).


----------



## Albatros

More like Carsten Jancker I would say, while Petersen is more like Zickler. As things are now, Germany may again have to rely on Mario Gómez.


----------



## cgf

We should just give Arp the job if Jogi refuses to pick Uth. It's not like any of these guys should ever see the pitch...as even if we have to chase a game late, I'd rather have Hummels go up into the box than to waste a substition bringing on Wagner/Gomez/Peterson. So why not give the spot to a kid who might actually get something out of the experience, and who's youthful experience could be good for morale?


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

This whole thing feels like 94 to me. I don't have high hopes for the tournament.


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> This whole thing feels like 94 to me. I don't have high hopes for the tournament.




Jogi’s not _that_ bad


----------



## Bon Esprit

Not many surprises and I'm okay with that roster. It's pretty much the best we have (unfortunally Stindl is injured). Petersen won't make the cut (Wagner wouldn't either). I've never been a fan of Gomez, but won't see much action anyway. Everything is said about Götze.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> Not many surprises and I'm okay with that roster. It's pretty much the best we have (unfortunally Stindl is injured). Petersen won't make the cut (Wagner wouldn't either). I've never been a fan of Gomez, but won't see much action anyway. Everything is said about Götze.




As long as injuries don't hit us at the tourney we should be fine, but if we get hit by injuries I'm worried that Jogi will turn to Rudiger & Ginter instead of Sule, Vogt & Tah; similarly, I worry we'll see Khedira over...oh so many better options. Picking Trapp & Leno over Baumann, Horn & Karius shouldn't hurt us even if Neuer isn't ready in time; but ugh does the Khedira inclusion cause me anxiety.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> lol Jogi is so predictable. Leno & Trapp over Baumann, Rudiger & Ginter over Vogt, Khedira’s corpse over anyone useful, a tall bum to be the “plan B” when Uth could fill that role while actually helping the NT, and no Gotze, Dahoud, Weigl, Meyer, Geiger, Demirbay, etc.
> 
> Hopefully the boys can stay healthy and Jogi’s roster mistakes don’t cost us like they did in 2016




I agree: it's a bit puzzling why Rudy is the only all-around 6 in the squad. Perhaps the plan is to surround Kroos with rangy pressing CMs like Goretzka and Gündogan, but it seems weird to me to bring 4 players whom I consider more 8s, and only bring one 6. And yeah, the prospect of Khedira playing is hilarious.


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> As long as injuries don't hit us at the tourney we should be fine, but if we get hit by injuries I'm worried that Jogi will turn to Rudiger & Ginter instead of Sule, Vogt & Tah; similarly, I worry we'll see Khedira over...oh so many better options. Picking Trapp & Leno over Baumann, Horn & Karius shouldn't hurt us even if Neuer isn't ready in time; but ugh does the Khedira inclusion cause me anxiety.



Löw always plays it safe in goal and he is right. It will be ter Stegen or Neuer. And that's why Khedira is still in. I like the guy, but this will be hs last tournament. After that a lot of things will happen. IMO we will never see Götze playing for the NT in a tournament again. Sad story.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> Löw always plays it safe in goal and he is right. It will be ter Stegen or Neuer. And that's why Khedira is still in. I like the guy, but this will be hs last tournament. After that a lot of things will happen. IMO we will never see Götze playing for the NT in a tournament again. Sad story.




How is potentially having to play Leno...say if Neuer gets brought along cause he'll be fully fit at some point, but MAtS gets injured before Neuer is ready...playing it safe if the goal is to win? Playing it safe would be taking one of the keepers who's actually been playing well in recent years; who might be able to step in & not let the whole team down if the worst happens.

It's only playing it safe if the goal is to avoid blame from the press & casual fans if we fail to defend our crown. That's why Jogi bothers me. He picks bigger names & makes the decisions that "it's tough to blame him for"; even though they are not the best decisions for the NT nor the safest options for bolstering the squad.

The Gotze scenario is a perfect example. He just had his best season, but because a lot of people have this misconception that "he's not what he once was", Jogi won't risk taking him. It's cowardly and already cost us in 2016 with the countless "safe" mistakes that Jogi made that culminated in the abortion of a squad he sent out against france.

He does the same things with his tactics, adopting what is popular so he can be credited with being tactically progress, but never daring to innovate or truly understanding how to use the popular trend as a building block for his own schemes & structures. Thus him forcing Gotze to play the false-9 when we should've just started Kruse that whole tourney; or pressing more once every team in the 1st or 2nd BuLi was already copying Klopp; or him starting to toy with a back three once he could adopt it from Pep, Tuchel, Nagelsmann, etc.

Some of this is just the question of training time with the NT players that limit a NT coach's ability to innovate...although as we saw with Chile's recently ended run, that's not an entirely prohibitive restriction...but a lot of it is just Jogi's cowardice that drives to focus so much on making decisions that "nobody can blame him for".



Deficient Mode said:


> I agree: it's a bit puzzling why Rudy is the only all-around 6 in the squad. Perhaps the plan is to surround Kroos with rangy pressing CMs like Goretzka and Gündogan, but it seems weird to me to bring 4 players whom I consider more 8s, and only bring one 6. And yeah, the prospect of Khedira playing is hilarious.




Toni's a 6 for us in terms of how our possession flows forth from him & the CBs. So I see two 6s in that provisional squad...plus Kimmich who's a natural 6 and could be deputized in that position if both Rudy & Kroos got injured. And if we're going to be playing with a back three, then that eases the burden on the 6 against the ball by giving him that extra protection and an extra body that can step forward to assist Toni when the midfielders in front of him can't get back to help.

I'd have taken Weigl, Meyer or Geiger to give us a third 6 (not counting Kimmich); but assuming we play a lot of back 3 shapes, it shouldn't kill us unless both Toni & Rudy get hurt without Jogi shifting Kimmich back to the 6 in response...that scenario being why I would've taken Klostermann (or even Henrichs despite his limited PT of late) ahead of Plattenhart. As Plattenhart is a lot worse at RB than LB, while the first two are good on both sides; meaning they could've backed up Hector & given us the cover at RB to be safe with only 2 official 6s.


----------



## YNWA14

Maybe it's just me but I thought Khedira looked pretty good against Real Madrid.


----------



## Evilo

When Kroos is your 6, you'd better have the ball.


----------



## cgf

YNWA14 said:


> Maybe it's just me but I thought Khedira looked pretty good against Real Madrid.




He's not entirely washed up, but he used to fit into our possession game because he was a perfect easy-out option for his team-mates who's stamina, quickness & smarts let him always be available to ball carriers to play 1-2s with or recycle possession through...like Kramer still can...but age has sapped him of that energy and quickness, and we need more on the ball from our 8s now. So at this point Sami would be a genuine problem for our possession game, even if he can still make decisions quicker than Can (or even LeGo).

His body hasn't failed him yet completely, but it no longer gives him enough to help our NT...especially not when soooooo many better midfielders, who would've offered us more, were neglected.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> When Kroos is your 6, you'd better have the ball.




That's been the plan for the past 6 years


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf
I've never been a fan of Jogi Löw. the way he treated players like Kruse or Kießling pissed me off. He isn't a great coach, he simply always had good players. He wouldn't last one full season if he had top coach a top team day in and day out.

As for the goalies; Of course you always put the best player in goal. No need for experiments. The best are today a healthy Neuer and ter Stegen. I don't care whos 3rd. doesn't matter.


----------



## Evilo

cgf said:


> That's been the plan for the past 6 years



Yeah and how you lost against a quick counter attacking team in EC.
And almost did in WC too.


----------



## cgf

Assuming Müller does his usual god-mode at the WM thing, I'm hoping to see:

Werner - Müller
Sane - Gundogan - Özil - Kimmich
Kroos
Süle - Boa - Mats
MAtS
------------------------------
Sane - Werner - Müller
Hector - Kroos/Ilkay - Özil/Ilkay - Kimmich
Süle - Boa - Mats
MAtS
------------------------------
Werner
Sane - Özil - Müller
Ilkay - Kroos
Hector - Boa - Mats- Kimmich
MAtS

Key Bench players:
Reus, Brandt, Goretzka, Rudy​


----------



## Bon Esprit

YNWA14 said:


> Maybe it's just me but I thought Khedira looked pretty good against Real Madrid.




It's a tournament we are talking about, with the toughest competition after 3 or 4 games. He's getting old. That's all.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> Yeah and how you lost against a quick counter attacking team in EC.
> And almost did in WC too.




Sorry we've only won the WC in that time frame and didn't spare you guys the embarrassment of losing that final to Portugal 

We lost because our Can sabotaged our possession game and let you guys isolate him on the ball, which caused almost all of your counters. And even with that handicap...and no Hummels in defence to clean up for it...we still could've won that if Müller were in WC form rather than EC form


----------



## Evilo

cgf said:


> Sorry we've only won the WC in that time frame and didn't spare you guys the embarrassment of losing that final to Portugal
> 
> We lost because our Can sabotaged our possession game and let you guys isolate him on the ball, which caused almost all of your counters. And even with that handicap...and no Hummels in defence to clean up for it...we still could've won that if Müller were in WC form rather than EC form



It's great and perfect you're happy with all of this and blame one player. I, for instance, think our WC98 win, although amazing defensively, deserves a lot of criticism and could have been different without luck coming our side.
When I see WC 14, I see a 2- tie with Ghana, with Germany probably the second best team on the pitch. A very unconvincing 1-0 on the US. A tight game (despite possession) against Algeria, Neuer saving Germany's ass against France, and a tight final.

Nowhere do I see dominance that can prevent Germany from progressing. And playing Kroos at 6 is IMO a big mistake.


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Man I remember four years ago some posters in this forum arguing that Germany was missing pieces or what not and didn't have the pieces to win the World Cup.


----------



## Evilo

Have I said anything remotely close to that?
Any team can make progress. And playing Kroos at 6 is a mistake. Obvious mistake I'd say.


----------



## Bon Esprit

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Man I remember four years ago some posters in this forum arguing that Germany was missing pieces or what not and didn't have the pieces to win the World Cup.



Germans always underrate their teams. Just like the English always overrate their teams.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> cgf
> I've never been a fan of Jogi Löw. the way he treated players like Kruse or Kießling pissed me off. He isn't a great coach, he simply always had good players. He wouldn't last one full season if he had top coach a top team day in and day out.
> 
> As for the goalies; Of course you always put the best player in goal. No need for experiments. The best are today a healthy Neuer and ter Stegen. I don't care whos 3rd. doesn't matter.




Yeah, Keissling should've gotten a shot...even if I think Jogi was right about him having nothing to offer the NT...and Jogi ignoring Kruse, when he was our best striker of the 2010s until Werner's Leipzig move, was just a travesty. Especially when he would've fit our style of play spectacularly and had a massive impact on the like of Muller, Reus, Schurrle, etc. There's just something wrong that the only tourneys that Kruse or Stindl will have gone to for us will end up being the stupid confed cup.

As for our #3: I normally wouldn't care, but until I see Neuer in a game looking like himself again, I'm going to worry that we are one MAtS injury away from having to rely on Trapp/Leno in Russia.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> It's great and perfect you're happy with all of this and blame one player. I, for instance, think our WC98 win, although amazing defensively, deserves a lot of criticism and could have been different without luck coming our side.
> When I see WC 14, I see a 2- tie with Ghana, with Germany probably the second best team on the pitch. A very unconvincing 1-0 on the US. A tight game (despite possession) against Algeria, Neuer saving Germany's ass against France, and a tight final.
> 
> Nowhere do I see dominance that can prevent Germany from progressing. And playing Kroos at 6 is IMO a big mistake.




Right, you guys just rode your luck to the title in 98, whereas we actually deserved to win in 2016...if Jogi hadn't shot himself in the foot and handed you that SF, as Portugal hasn't beaten us since 2000...including a 4-0 drubbing on the way to our WC win just two years before


----------



## Evilo

Sigh.
Sure. We got lucky, you steamrolled everyone.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> Sigh.
> Sure. We got lucky, you steamrolled everyone.




Almost. You got lucky, while Jogi kept us from just steamrolling everyone. That's why we're not going for the threepeat this summer


----------



## PansCyans

Obviously everyone knows more is needed than to win a tournament than being good enough to win it. 

The things you guys are going back and forth on are usually integral to a tournament winner. Being lucky at right time (more so, if you’re truly unlucky, it usually doesn’t happen despite the quality a side may have), being able to somehow grind out a result when maybe you didn’t have your best game. Almost all tournament winners have moments like these that could be the difference between barely advancing, or being barely knocked out.


----------



## Albatros

Evilo said:


> I, for instance, think our WC98 win, although amazing defensively, deserves a lot of criticism and could have been different without luck coming our side.




Fun fact: France was practicing with the Liverpool legend Sami Hyypiä fortifying their defense before the tournament.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

MrFunnyWobbl said:


> Man I remember four years ago some posters in this forum arguing that Germany was missing pieces or what not and didn't have the pieces to win the World Cup.



Remember when they were a goal away from losing...

People are acting like Germany has dominated ala Spain the last few years. They've won ONE tournament. Stop acting as if they're untouchable. I mean minus Argentina obviously any elite team has a chance against them.


----------



## PansCyans

But even Spain during their tournament wins, had those moments. Which tournament did they lose the opener? And penalties to get by Italy in ‘08 and Portugal in ‘12. Literally balances of tournament champions on knifedges.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Jogi has always had weird biases. Like I legit believe he favors players based/developed in B-W over others. Then of course he doesn't like players that are known to be opinionated and individualistic.

Kruse was banished for what the poker money incident? But also probably for not being a conformist in general. Meanwhile Grosskreutz got away with a ton of stuff because he was also the kind of simpleton jokester that is good in the locker room and won't complain about being 3rd choice.

Anyway, I think this tournament will not be very good for the same reason the 2016 tournament wasn't great. Jogi doesn't know his best team and the guys he could always rely on are gone. We don't have a guy as good as Lahm, we still don't have a real successor to Klose - even though Klose as we know wasn't exactly a supremely gifted player, the proposed solution in central midfield seems to shift all the time. We'll see how it goes, maybe it will sort itself out.


----------



## cgf

koyvoo said:


> Obviously everyone knows more is needed than to win a tournament than being good enough to win it.
> 
> The things you guys are going back and forth on are usually integral to a tournament winner. Being lucky at right time (more so, if you’re truly unlucky, it usually doesn’t happen despite the quality a side may have), being able to somehow grind out a result when maybe you didn’t have your best game. Almost all tournament winners have moments like these that could be the difference between barely advancing, or being barely knocked out.




Flukey EC winners who rode their luck hard, aren't exactly unheard of: *cough* Greece 2004 & Portugal 2016 *cough*. Those teams didn't just grind out tough wins like most champions have to; they saw opponents fall apart in front of them, or teams that would've wiped the floor with them, stumble before running into them.

My gripes aren't that we lost to France since they were our biggest threat and deserved to beat us on that day, or that we only lost because we just didn't finish our chances as that's our own fault for not bringing Kruse or Stindl and for Jogi refusing to accept that Müller's magic doesn't work at the euros, only the WC. My gripe is that Jogi's mistakes down roster, meant that when injuries & suspensions hit us for our toughest game of the tourney, we were stuck playing guys that undermined our chances of victory and left France with the weaknesses that they ended up exploiting.

And if we had gotten past France in that semi we would've been golden. As they were (by far) our biggest threat and portugal would've presented us with a less talented version of same challenge that the French did...only from a team whose heads, we are in.

...plus I just can't help but tease Evilo whenever presented the opportunity


----------



## Deficient Mode

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Remember when they were a goal away from losing...
> 
> People are acting like Germany has dominated ala Spain the last few years. They've won ONE tournament. Stop acting as if they're untouchable.* I mean minus Argentina obviously any elite team has a chance against them*.




To quote you: "you deserve a hug."


----------



## cgf

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Remember when they were a goal away from losing...
> 
> People are acting like Germany has dominated ala Spain the last few years. They've won ONE tournament. Stop acting as if they're untouchable. I mean minus Argentina obviously any elite team has a chance against them.




Technically they've won 2 of 3 tourneys in 3 years...though they only one won major tourney...but that's why Jogi costing us the France match is so painful. We've had Portugal's number since Figo still played for them and the Ronaldo generation has never beaten us in a competitive match; plus they played the same way France did against us, only with less talent.

So if Jogi hadn't f***ed up two years ago, we probably would be going for our third straight major in Russia, and 4th senior title in 4 years


----------



## Albatros

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> People are acting like Germany has dominated ala Spain the last few years. They've won ONE tournament.




True, but I'm not sure if that's decisive. The 1970s/1980s Brazil team with Sócrates, Zico & co. won nothing, and still it is one of the greatest and most dominant teams in the history of the game.


----------



## cgf

koyvoo said:


> But even Spain during their tournament wins, had those moments. Which tournament did they lose the opener? And penalties to get by Italy in ‘08 and Portugal in ‘12. Literally balances of tournament champions on knifedges.




Or that time when Ozil fought on, instead of just going down when obviously fouled in the box. Which would've given us a penalty, with the score 0-0, right before halftime of that 2010 semifinal. If the refs make the right call there and we can just sit back & counter for a whole half, Spain's run ends at 1 to.


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Jogi has always had weird biases. Like I legit believe he favors players based/developed in B-W over others. *Then of course he doesn't like players that are known to be opinionated and individualistic.
> 
> Kruse was banished for what the poker money incident? But also probably for not being a conformist in general.* Meanwhile Grosskreutz got away with a ton of stuff because he was also the kind of simpleton jokester that is good in the locker room and won't complain about being 3rd choice.
> 
> Anyway, I think this tournament will not be very good for the same reason the 2016 tournament wasn't great. Jogi doesn't know his best team and the guys he could always rely on are gone. We don't have a guy as good as Lahm, we still don't have a real successor to Klose - even though Klose as we know wasn't exactly a supremely gifted player, the proposed solution in central midfield seems to shift all the time. We'll see how it goes, maybe it will sort itself out.




Oh god yes. It's the same reason why I know Kramer won't ever play for the NT under Jogi either. Though he's a great team-mate, a real warrior, and a very skillful 8; he's far too eloquent & outspoken for Jogi.

Disagree with your final paragraph's assertions about the roster, since this is quite clearly the best roster we've put together this millennium even if Jogi wastes spots on Khedira & Gomez...but I'm not sure I'm up for diving into that with you yet again


----------



## Albatros

Does Gómez really have an alternative if Werner doesn't find his form?


----------



## cgf

@Duchene2MacKinnon

Our only tournament loss in the past 5 years was the SF to France. Our record in competitive matches since the start of the Brazil cycle is 40 wins, 5 draws & 3 losses...one of those losses coming in the penultimate matchday of euro-qualifying; after we had already secured qualification for ourselves, but when the irish were still fighting for their lives. And three of those draws came in the group stages of tourneys that we advanced as group winners in.

So that SF literally is the difference between where we are now & the German NT heading to Russia nipping at the heels of Spain 2008-2012 



Albatros said:


> Does Gómez really have an alternative if Werner doesn't find his form?




If something happens to Werner before rosters are set we'll have to call on Uth since Stindl is injured. Gomez/Petersen would just be brought along to sit on the bench & play in the 3rd group stage game.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Deficient Mode said:


> To quote you: "you deserve a hug."




Thanks, losing 3 straight to the Germans does that to you. I see no way in beating them if Argentina manages to get past Spain. Hell they might be better off being 2nd in the group and facing the likes of Portugal, Brasil and France.



cgf said:


> Technically they've won 2 of 3 tourneys in 3 years...though they only one won major tourney...but that's why Jogi costing us the France match is so painful. We've had Portugal's number since Figo still played for them and the Ronaldo generation has never beaten us in a competitive match; plus they played the same way France did against us, only with less talent.
> 
> So if Jogi hadn't ****ed up two years ago, we probably would be going for our third straight major in Russia, and 4th senior title in 4 years




Yup, and if HIguain didn't f*** up I'd be posting this with 3 stars on my chest... but here we are. 



Albatros said:


> True, but I'm not sure if that's decisive. The 1970s/1980s Brazil team with Sócrates, Zico & co. won nothing, and still it is one of the greatest and most dominant teams in the history of the game.




That's cool if you want to crown them go ahead but they have a lot more proving to do...



cgf said:


> @Duchene2MacKinnon
> 
> Our only tournament loss in the past 5 years was the SF to France. Our record in competitive matches since the start of the Brazil cycle is 40 wins, 5 draws & 3 losses...one of those losses coming in the penultimate matchday of euro-qualifying; after we had already secured qualification for ourselves, but when the irish were still fighting for their lives. And three of those draws came in the group stages of tourneys that we advanced as group winners in.
> 
> So that SF literally is the difference between where we are now & the German NT heading to Russia nipping at the heels of Spain 2008-2012
> .




Argentina since 2014 have also only lost 1 match in tournaments... hell in the finals they only conceded one f*** goal. Guess how many trophies they won in the span? and they are considered complete and utter failures.


----------



## cgf

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Thanks, losing 3 straight to the Germans does that to you. I see no way in beating them if Argentina manages to get past Spain. Hell they might be better off being 2nd in the group and facing the likes of Portugal, Brasil and France.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, and if HIguain didn't **** up I'd be posting this with 3 stars on my chest... but here we are.
> 
> 
> 
> That's cool if you want to crown them go ahead but they have a lot more proving to do...
> 
> 
> 
> Argentina since 2014 have also only lost 1 match in tournaments... hell in the finals they only conceded one **** goal. Guess how many trophies they won in the span? and they are considered complete and utter failures.




I don’t disagree that what actually happened matters more than what could have happened; which is why I’m not arguing that our NTs resume is right there with Spain 2008-12 or with West Germany 72-76. Just that we’re not that far off & would have been right on the trail of those giants heading to Russia, if Jogi had not screwed up when picking his squad two summers ago.

...which is more frustrating for me than a player just not finishing a golden opportunity, or even a ref making a game deciding error; i.e. 2012 and even 2010 were a lot easier for me to get over than 2016. I have to guess because that defeat was entirely within the coach’s control. There was no element of chance involved with not picking a squad that could keep rolling despite injuries / suspensions / Müller’s-powers-only-working-at-the-World-Cup; the way there was with Higuain doing what he do, or with Mesut not getting that penalty in South Africa, or with Gomez pulling a Higuain against Italy in 2012.

There was absolutely no reason for Can to be on that pitch when Kramer, Dahoud & Weigl were perfectly healthy at home, and there was no reason for us to keep feeding Müller n Schürrle chances to squander when Kruse, Stindl & Brandt we’re all fit for that tourney. So it’s more annoying than if we had thrown everything we could at them & still come up short.


----------



## Evilo

koyvoo said:


> Obviously everyone knows more is needed than to win a tournament than being good enough to win it.
> 
> The things you guys are going back and forth on are usually integral to a tournament winner. Being lucky at right time (more so, if you’re truly unlucky, it usually doesn’t happen despite the quality a side may have), being able to somehow grind out a result when maybe you didn’t have your best game. Almost all tournament winners have moments like these that could be the difference between barely advancing, or being barely knocked out.



Yup, my point. And you test your luck with having someone who can't run play as a 6.


----------



## Evilo

Albatros said:


> Fun fact: France was practicing with the Liverpool legend Sami Hyypiä fortifying their defense before the tournament.



Hmmm. Desailly, Blanc, Hyypia.
Who are the legends?


----------



## Albatros

Blanc's a nobody only remembered for Barthez kisses, but Desailly and Hyypiä are twins. Desailly was in need of rest during their training camp in Finland right before the tournament, so they called in Hyypiä to act his part temporarily. He even wore Desailly's shirt playing for France in a friendly.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> Yup, my point. And you test your luck with having someone who can't run play as a 6.




Can't run play? I think we might be having a linguistic disconnect here because that feels like an odd criticism of Kroos...given that his ability to dictate play as the pendulum of our possession game, is the whole reason why the last DDR-star has been such an important figure for the NT. He may not be able to run, but he can run the play like a proper maestro.

He's a 6 in the mold of Pirlo, not Makelele...which is why it's a good idea for us to play a back three behind him, or to shield him with plenty of numbers in the central areas further forward, or both. But he's the one who should be dropping back deepest to recycle the ball with the backs while others push forward, the most often.


----------



## Evilo

Albatros said:


> Blanc's a nobody only remembered for Barthez kisses, but Desailly and Hyypiä are twins. Desailly was in need of rest during their training camp in Finland right before the tournament, so they called in Hyypiä to act his part temporarily. He even wore Desailly's shirt playing for France in a friendly.



What? 
Are you serious? 
Blanc a nobody?
What world are you living in?


----------



## Evilo

cgf said:


> Can't run play? I think we might be having a linguistic disconnect here because that feels like an odd criticism of Kroos...given that his ability to dictate play as the pendulum of our possession game, is the whole reason why the last DDR-star has been such an important figure for the NT. He may not be able to run, but he can run the play like a proper maestro.
> 
> He's a 6 in the mold of Pirlo, not Makelele...which is why it's a good idea for us to play a back three behind him, or to shield him with plenty of numbers in the central areas further forward, or both. But he's the one who should be dropping back deepest to recycle the ball with the backs while others push forward, the most often.



Someone who can't run, play as a 6.
He makes you vulnerable to counters. 
Pirlo's Italy not only didn't get many results but rarely dominated possession.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> Someone who can't run, play as a 6.
> He makes you vulnerable to counters.
> Pirlo's Italy not only didn't get many results but rarely dominated possession.




Gotcha and it’s a concern. But that’s part of why I am such a proponent of the NT playing a back 3...so that even when we do get sloppy and allow a team to counter, Toni getting left in their dust won’t leave us without numbers back. We’ve got the benefit of some spectacular CB & GKing talent behind Toni if we roll with Sule or Vogt next to Boateng & Hummels...which, combined with our possession game (when there’s no liabilities like Can to get taken advantage of), means we can afford to have an immobile maestro like Kroos between a back three and the other midfielders; at least until our more mobile kids force him out of the side.


----------



## Evilo

With a guy like Kroos I'm either in favor of playing him as 8 with a 6 behind him or in a double 8.

I've never been a fan of 3 at the back though contrary to you.


----------



## PansCyans

Couple of points. 

-Laurent Blanc was a beast. Rock steady. Throughout that generation, he easily kept very good CBs like Candela and Leboeuf on the bench. 

-nobody’s Italy dominated possession really. And you could argue that traditionally, they never got many positive results when you consider that more often than not, a draw has been forever safe bet when they play, their historical successes not withstanding.


----------



## cgf

Evilo said:


> With a guy like Kroos I'm either in favor of playing him as 8 with a 6 behind him or in a double 8.
> 
> I've never been a fan of 3 at the back though contrary to you.




I don't see the point of playing him ahead of someone else. What makes him special is his ability to recycle the ball with the backline & to dictate play from deep. Pushing him forward just gives him less time & space in which to pull the strings, and highlights that his immobility prevents him from taking guys on or weaving through a crowd.

That's why I'm with you on using him as part of a double-8 with a B2Ber like Kramer or Gundogan, someone who will push forward and support the attackers, so Toni can fall back & cycle the ball with the defenders; but I would play him behind two 8/10s before I played him in front of a more tradition 6...as that would start to clog the deeper areas for your build up and it would take away an option further forward through which to flow through.

Fair enough on the back 3. I just love all of the passing triangles it allows you to create in the early phases of your build-up play...especially as a means of retaliation against modern pressing schemes...plus I love that it inherently protects you better from counters; that finding Wingbacks is easier than Fullbacks; and that it makes it easier to overload the center of the pitch & half-spaces, without sacrificing all width.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Sky reports RB Leipzig and Ralf Hasenhüttl part ways today or tomorrow. WOW!


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> Sky reports RB Leipzig and Ralf Hasenhüttl part ways today or tomorrow. WOW!




I love to see that ambition from them. I was worried that they would be content with his first two seasons on the whole & wouldn't have the courage to replace Hasenhuttl until he had had another season to prove that he can not organizer possession.


----------



## Albatros

Tim Wiese in trouble after parking his Lamborghini in a place reserved for people with disabilities and fighting with a 91-year-old about it:

Lamborghini auf Behindertenparkplatz: Polizei ermittelt gegen Tim Wiese nach Streit mit 91-Jährigem


----------



## Savant

Bon Esprit said:


> Sky reports RB Leipzig and Ralf Hasenhüttl part ways today or tomorrow. WOW!



Jesse Marsch taking over?


----------



## Albatros

Marco Rose more likely, Marsch has never played or coached in Europe.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> Tim Wiese in trouble after parking his Lamborghini in a place reserved for people with disabilities and fighting with a 91-year-old about it:
> 
> Lamborghini auf Behindertenparkplatz: Polizei ermittelt gegen Tim Wiese nach Streit mit 91-Jährigem




It's not the first time. In December he had trouble with his Lambo in Hamburg, too.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Wonder where Hasenhüttl will end up. As disappointing - and predictably so - as this year was for him and Leipzig, he was one of the best coaches in the Bundesliga the two years before. Hope he gets a nice job next, but it might be tough to find a job that isn't a step back for him - a step back which he doesn't deserve.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Sandro Wagner announces his retirement from the German NT.

LOL, yeah Sandro we gonna miss you and all. Thanks for your services.

Stürmer Sandro Wagner möchte nie wieder für DFB-Elf spielen


----------



## Evilo

He can't. It's not legal.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Wonder where Hasenhüttl will end up. As disappointing - and predictably so - as this year was for him and Leipzig, *he was one of the best coaches in the Bundesliga the two years before. *Hope he gets a nice job next, but it might be tough to find a job that isn't a step back for him - a step back which he doesn't deserve.




I dunno about that, his inability to organize them in possession is not a new development.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Favre vetoes the Lichtsteiner signing before he is even annouced to be the next coach. Right or wrong, this will be fun with Watzke/Zorc and Favre.

Kein Vertrag für Lichtsteiner beim BVB


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Favre vetoes the Lichtsteiner signing before he is even annouced to be the next coach. Right or wrong, this will be fun with Watzke/Zorc and Favre.
> 
> Kein Vertrag für Lichtsteiner beim BVB




OK I'm fully on board with Favre never mind.


----------



## cgf

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/ti...at-noch-kein-durchgaengiges-konzept-1.3982244

solid read


----------



## cgf

God damn is this offseason going to be a let down if Eberl gets all this done but doesn't replace Hecking...

Onyekuru - Stindl - Raffael - Hazard
Kramer - Zakaria
Cucurella - Veste - Ginter - Elvedi
Sommer

Brewster, Traore, Bennetts, Cuisance, Benes, Neuhaus, Johnson, Hoffman, Doucoure, Jantschke​


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Too bad that Wolfsburg will likely win the playoff. I was hoping they'd lose, and Brooks would move to a better team. I didn't like how he moved from Hertha Berlin in the first place. Wolfsburg is just like one of these lower table Premier League teams that spends big amounts of money on players, but can't get all their players to play at the level their caliber would indicate.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Too bad that Wolfsburg will likely win the playoff. I was hoping they'd lose, and Brooks would move to a better team. I didn't like how he moved from Hertha Berlin in the first place. Wolfsburg is just like one of these lower table Premier League teams that spends big amounts of money on players, but can't get all their players to play at the level their caliber would indicate.




Except none of those English clubs were 2nd in their league 3 seasons ago. But yeah.


----------



## Albatros

The current format is rigged anyway, it is near impossible for a second league team to win. Promotion playoffs like in England would be much fairer.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Do we want Morata or Batshuayi? I can't decide. I think Morata is better than his Chelsea stint and has higher potential than Batshuayi.


----------



## sabremike

Albatros said:


> Marco Rose more likely, Marsch has never played or coached in Europe.



Probably for now but there is a reason he has spent so much time getting a UEFA coaching badge. It is funny that while he is a very good coach he really has yet to win anything in his career and has always failed with the money on the line.


----------



## Albatros

I can't see anyone in the Bundesliga hiring him directly from the MLS though, he'd have to get the Salzburg job first somehow. More likely he'll end up somewhere in Britain and stay there.


----------



## Bon Esprit

When asked by journalists how much Bayern is up to spend on new players, Rummenigge said; There is no limit.
Opposite to the remarks in the past Bayern now seem to want to play with the big boys (moneywise, of course).
It is also reported Bayern made an offer for Leverkusen's Bailey (60m, Lev wants more)

FC Bayern: Rummenigge bereitet die Liga auf nächsten Paukenschlag vor - WELT


----------



## Savant

Supposedly Hradecky is announcing he is leaving tomorrow to a Bundesliga team in the Champions League.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> Supposedly Hradecky is announcing he is leaving tomorrow to a Bundesliga team in the Champions League.




Please no

Oh wait just saw the Hitz news. That's good. Surely Dortmund can't sign two keepers this summer.


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Please no
> 
> Oh wait just saw the Hitz news. That's good. Surely Dortmund can't sign two keepers this summer.





Savant said:


> Supposedly Hradecky is announcing he is leaving tomorrow to a Bundesliga team in the Champions League.




It’s Leverkusen


----------



## Savant

cgf said:


> It’s Leverkusen



Leverkusen isn't in CL though.


----------



## Savant

According to Paul Joyce

Liverpool have cancelled the pre-season friendly with Borussia Mönchengladbach (Anfield, August 7) over the German club’s interest in Rhian Brewster. Club officials have also written to Mönchengladbach warning them over their conduct in pursuing teenager.

Its a shame really. The two clubs have always had a good, friendly relationship


----------



## cgf

Savant said:


> According to Paul Joyce
> 
> Liverpool have cancelled the pre-season friendly with Borussia Mönchengladbach (Anfield, August 7) over the German club’s interest in Rhian Brewster. Club officials have also written to Mönchengladbach warning them over their conduct in pursuing teenager.
> 
> Its a shame really. The two clubs have always had a good, friendly relationship




LFC throwing a hissy fit about it is pretty funny


----------



## Albatros

Hertha's new stadium plan:


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Savant said:


> Leverkusen isn't in CL though.




I don't get it either. Bayern doesn't need a keeper and Dortmund just signed a keeper. I guess it could be Schalke or Hoffenheim, but do they need keepers? Not that I know of. I had read it was Leverkusen also, so the "Champions League" part is probably incorrect.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> LFC throwing a hissy fit about it is pretty funny




Gotta love how indignant Liverpool get when other clubs pursue their players but also when other clubs won't immediately sell them the players they want like van Dijk


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> Gotta love how indignant Liverpool get when other clubs pursue their players but also when other clubs won't immediately sell them the players they want like van Dijk




I am personally offended that LFC is arrogant enough not to sell 

At this point, I'm starting to hope that LFC dicking around, gets Brewster poached by Pepchester


----------



## Live in the Now

cgf said:


> I am personally offended that LFC is arrogant enough not to sell
> 
> At this point, I'm starting to hope that LFC dicking around, gets Brewster poached by Pepchester




Liverpool actually has a scholarship year they can use to prevent his transfer until much later this summer.


----------



## cgf

Live in the Now said:


> Liverpool actually has a scholarship year they can use to prevent his transfer until much later this summer.




But that still doesn't get them to the end of the window, right? Can't Citeh just tell Brewster to wait it out and the signing bonus they'll give him in august (or whenever) will make it worth his while?


----------



## Live in the Now

cgf said:


> But that still doesn't get them to the end of the window, right? Can't Citeh just tell Brewster to wait it out and the signing bonus they'll give him in august (or whenever) will make it worth his while?




They could but he wants first team football and wouldn't get it there. They won't touch this with a ten foot pole. Don't know how long into the summer this goes either. Chances aren't bad he just signs a new contract.


----------



## PansCyans

Bayern down 1-0 at halftime in cup final


----------



## Power Man

Lewa!!!!


----------



## Power Man

Frankfurt!


----------



## PansCyans

Wow


----------



## Power Man

Oh shit


----------



## sabremike

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Too bad that Wolfsburg will likely win the playoff. I was hoping they'd lose, and Brooks would move to a better team. I didn't like how he moved from Hertha Berlin in the first place. Wolfsburg is just like one of these lower table Premier League teams that spends big amounts of money on players, but can't get all their players to play at the level their caliber would indicate.



I mean, it's not like Wolfsburg has won the Bundisliga in the past decade or anything.

But seriously, very happy they are probably staying up because one of my friends who is also a longtime US Soccer/Metros superfan is also a Wolfsburg superfan dating back to when (IIRC) Reyna signed with them as one of the original Yanks Abroad.


----------



## Power Man

Amazing finish


----------



## Albatros

What a legendary victory for Frankfurt! Also Kovač proved he's one of the best, two times in a row in the final with a mediocre team, and now a convincing victory against the otherwise vastly superior Bayern.


----------



## Corto

I mean, I was rooting for the underdog, and I'm glad Kovac has won... but man, Bayern were denied a stone cold penalty at the end. 

Anyway, fantastic day for a club with such a storied history and their first trophy since 1988.


----------



## Live in the Now

It has become so rare that long trophy droughts are broken these days, that to see what it means to the fans is something special. Congrats to Frankfurt.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Of course, the one time you want Bayern to win they screw the pooch.


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Of course, the one time you want Bayern to win they screw the pooch.




Yeah, I wish there weren't so many shitty Frankfurt fans, so I could enjoy this.


----------



## John Pedro

cgf said:


> Yeah, I wish there weren't so many ****ty Frankfurt fans, so I could enjoy this.




but they've got some nice fans too


----------



## Albatros

John Pedro said:


> but they've got some nice fans too




Some, but still...


----------



## cgf

They're also violent shits. Not like Dresden, BFC, or Rostock level, but their reputation has long been well deserved.


----------



## HajdukSplit

Rebic and Kramaric will unfortunately be on the bench for Croatia at the World Cup despite their fantastic form


----------



## John Pedro

Albatros said:


> Some, but still...




Could you translate it if it's not too offensive, I can't read German. Anyway, I have a soft spot for them cause of FMs saves and because Tankard guys are supporters of the club and Tankard is freaking awesome! (not as good as Destruction or Sodom, though)


----------



## Albatros

"_Heynckes is alive - at the moment!_"

It's a tasteless reference to Kovač calling himself the 2019 Frankfurt manager "at the moment", a week before his transfer to Bayern was made public.


----------



## Deficient Mode

John Pedro said:


> Could you translate it if it's not too offensive, I can't read German. Anyway, I have a soft spot for them cause of FMs saves and because Tankard guys are supporters of the club and Tankard is freaking awesome! (not as good as Destruction or Sodom, though)




"Heynckes lives... for now."


----------



## Savant

HajdukSplit said:


> Rebic and Kramaric will unfortunately be on the bench for Croatia at the World Cup despite their fantastic form



Who should they start instead of?


----------



## cgf

Savant said:


> Who should they start instead of?




Who shouldn't Kramaric start over? At forward or winger?


----------



## MrFunnyWobbl

Good result.


----------



## les Habs

Not that this is the only thread this could be asked, but it's probably the best, so that said where are the Heynckes critics? If this were Guardiola it'd be a catastrophe going out to Madrid in the CL Semis and losing the DFB Pokal Final to Frankfurt.


----------



## Savant

cgf said:


> Who shouldn't Kramaric start over? At forward or winger?



I dont know I dont follow Croatia. I would assume someone good to keep them out


----------



## Albatros

les Habs said:


> Not that this is the only thread this could be asked, but it's probably the best, so that said where are the Heynckes critics? If this were Guardiola it'd be a catastrophe going out to Madrid in the CL Semis and losing the DFB Pokal Final to Frankfurt.




Ancelotti takes the blame for Bayern's shortcomings this season, Heynckes just got there from retirement mid-season to salvage what still could be salvaged.


----------



## les Habs

Albatros said:


> Ancelotti takes the blame for Bayern's shortcomings this season, Heynckes just got there from retirement mid-season to salvage what still could be salvaged.




That's a fair point to a degree and surely you can't lay it all on Heynckes' lap, but he took over in early October so it wasn't "mid-season". Either way, you can't really take today's result away from Heynckes. To the point though, were this Guardiola there'd be a stronger reaction on this forum.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

les Habs said:


> Not that this is the only thread this could be asked, but it's probably the best, so that said where are the Heynckes critics? If this were Guardiola it'd be a catastrophe going out to Madrid in the CL Semis and losing the DFB Pokal Final to Frankfurt.




What point would there be in criticizing Heynckes given he's a caretaker manager who didn't plan to have this job and essentially no longer has this job as of this evening? People criticized Guardiola because he came in with the expectations of winning the CL and being the maestro of world football. Someone who got as much hype as him will always be under the microscope.


----------



## les Habs

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> What point would there be in criticizing Heynckes given he's a caretaker manager who didn't plan to have this job and essentially no longer has this job as of this evening? People criticized Guardiola because he came in with the expectations of winning the CL and being the maestro of world football. Someone who got as much hype as him will always be under the microscope.




On this forum Guardiola was criticized for not living up to Heynckes' legacy, yet today under Heynckes they lost the cup final. Regardless of that, were it Guardiola who'd taken over in early October and this been the outcome there'd be a lot different reaction.


----------



## Deficient Mode

I don't remember Guardiola getting too much criticism here when he lost in the Pokal. IDK.


----------



## les Habs

Deficient Mode said:


> I don't remember Guardiola getting too much criticism here when he lost in the Pokal. IDK.




I was referring to the forum as a whole, not just this thread, and the fact that he was always compared to Heynckes because of one CL. Every time Bayern went out of the CL it was brought up, regardless of who they lost against, and now nothing about Heynckes after a pretty lackluster season by Bayern's and (at least formerly) this forum's standards.


----------



## Evilo

You're guilty of that yoo. Your evaluation of Ancelotti (and other posters here do the same) is, to the least, extremely biased towards this season and forgetting his multiple great years.
Guardiola came in to a team that won the treble. Anything less than a CL final was to be a disappointment. Especially given the players he picked and bought, etc...
Heynckes didn't choose a single player of this team last summer.
It's also worth noting he wasn't bombed 7-0 by Real Madrid but instead failed to the well known Madrid reffin' special in the semis.
Heynckes could absolutely be in the CL final.


----------



## Just Win

les Habs said:


> That's a fair point to a degree and surely you can't lay it all on Heynckes' lap, but he took over in early October so it wasn't "mid-season". Either way, you can't really take today's result away from Heynckes. To the point though, were this Guardiola there'd be a stronger reaction on this forum.




Not only did Heynckes have to fix Ancelotti's mess, he also had zero impact on Bayern's transfers in the summer. Bayern's big problem imo is they rely too much on Robben and Ribery, especially in important games and both are past their prime and injury prone. Bayern simply has failed to replace those two the last couple of years.

And Guardiola mainly was critizied for how the lost in the CL. Bayern was rather unlucky this year not to advance to the final. They certainly were not worse than Real in the semis.

Also give Frankfurt some credit, they simply played a great game and also had some needed luck with Bayern hitting the crossbar twice and a denied penalty.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> Hertha's new stadium plan:



It's overdue. Get them out of that museum and I maybe will like them. Well, probably not, but get them a modern stadium.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Bon Esprit said:


> It's overdue. Get them out of that museum and I maybe will like them. Well, probably not, but get them a modern stadium.




They have been circulating that plan (with some variations) for a year now. The Senat so far has only indicated that it is 'technically feasible'. So the club still need to negotiate with the city to actually get permission for it (as the city favors another renovation of the Olympiastadion instead) and then sort out financing (as the city will not pay for any of it). Even the optimistic boosters at the club give 2025 as the earliest date for the opening of a new stadium.


----------



## les Habs

Evilo said:


> You're guilty of that yoo. Your evaluation of Ancelotti (and other posters here do the same) is, to the least, extremely biased towards this season and forgetting his multiple great years.
> Guardiola came in to a team that won the treble. Anything less than a CL final was to be a disappointment. Especially given the players he picked and bought, etc...
> Heynckes didn't choose a single player of this team last summer.
> It's also worth noting he wasn't bombed 7-0 by Real Madrid but instead failed to the well known Madrid reffin' special in the semis.
> Heynckes could absolutely be in the CL final.




No, I'm not guilty of that. I've never thought Ancelotti was as good as his resume suggests. That said I don't think he's bad, but there are other managers I'd take over him.


Anyway, as I was saying, were this Guardiola in the exact same situation I'd be reading more about it.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

les Habs said:


> Anyway, as I was saying, were this Guardiola in the exact same situation I'd be reading more about it.




And as many others have been saying it's a bullshit, pointless comparison.


----------



## les Habs

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> And as many others have been saying it's a bull****, pointless comparison.




If you actually read what you quoted I was posing a hypothetical, not a comparison.


----------



## Bon Esprit

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> They have been circulating that plan (with some variations) for a year now. The Senat so far has only indicated that it is 'technically feasible'. So the club still need to negotiate with the city to actually get permission for it (as the city favors another renovation of the Olympiastadion instead) and then sort out financing (as the city will not pay for any of it). Even the optimistic boosters at the club give 2025 as the earliest date for the opening of a new stadium.



I didn't know the terms. Whatever, in the end it stays Hitler's stadium and a professional football club needs a state of the art stadim. I don't wonder red-red-green knows little of that.


----------



## Bon Esprit

I'm late to the party, but congrats to Frankfurt. We've all seen the foul on Martinez in the 4th mnute of extra time. As a neutral I can live with that. 
Throwing the silver medal away (Wagner) and no participating of the entire Bayern team in the post game festivities shows the right team won.


----------



## Bure80

Will there be a broadcast of Dortmunds game in LA in the US?


----------



## cgf

I love the excuse making from Jupp-apologists. As though getting unlucky was ever an acceptable excuse for Pep to go out in the CL semis


----------



## Evilo

Pep crashed in his semis. And no luck was involved. Just reffing.


----------



## Savant

Evilo said:


> Pep crashed in his semis. And no luck was involved. Just reffing.



Lol. They lost 3-0 in the first leg and it should have been more. They dont get to complain about the officials.


----------



## Evilo




----------



## Albatros

Bon Esprit said:


> Throwing the silver medal away (Wagner) and no participating of the entire Bayern team in the post game festivities shows the right team won.




The best punishment for that behavior was to have their Bundesliga title celebration today, all those happy faces:


----------



## Bon Esprit

Albatros said:


> The best punishment for that behavior was to have their Bundesliga title celebration today, all those happy faces:



The only class act was Heynckes on tv who didn't need excuses or the foul situation (Martinez). Great coach, great personality. You will never be forgotten, Jupp.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

les Habs said:


> If you actually read what you quoted I was posing a hypothetical, not a comparison.




There's no point in a debate about a hypothetical scenario here because Pep would never take a fixed short-term caretaker job like Heynckes did, so we'd never have a chance to debate Pep's performance in similar circumstances. 

People compared Pep to Heynckes because Heynckes was basically encouraged to 'retire' by Bayern brass who felt they needed a world-class manager to win the CL. Of course, they then won the CL with Heynckes after Pep had already been announced. Whether that was fair to Pep is a different question but has nothing to do with whether people criticize Heynckes now in these circumstances. And in any event, Bayern's season this year was pretty remarkably similar to those under Pep..dominant league campaign, CL exit in the semifinals..in spite of having started out looking quite bad under Ancelotti.


----------



## les Habs

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> There's no point in a debate about a hypothetical scenario here because Pep would never take a fixed short-term caretaker job like Heynckes did, so we'd never have a chance to debate Pep's performance in similar circumstances.
> 
> People compared Pep to Heynckes because Heynckes was basically encouraged to 'retire' by Bayern brass who felt they needed a world-class manager to win the CL. Of course, they then won the CL with Heynckes after Pep had already been announced. Whether that was fair to Pep is a different question but has nothing to do with whether people criticize Heynckes now in these circumstances. And in any event, Bayern's season this year was pretty remarkably similar to those under Pep..dominant league campaign, CL exit in the semifinals..in spite of having started out looking quite bad under Ancelotti.




There is a point as Guardiola would have been treated differently.

Bayern's seasons under Guardiola weren't remarkable according to some here. And this isn't even to mention the free pass that Ancelotti got.


----------



## Albatros

Ancelotti essentially had his managerial reputation ruined by that job, despite winning the league just the same. Kovač arrives as a champion, but still has less to lose, he already defeated his predecessor in a direct duel and no one expects a treble from him.


----------



## Islesfan22

HajdukSplit said:


> Rebic and Kramaric will unfortunately be on the bench for Croatia at the World Cup despite their fantastic form



Rebic probably will be but I do believe Kramaric will start. Croatia can't be that stupid to bench one of the most in form forwards over the last 6 weeks.


----------



## cgf

Yeah, kovac will have every excuse imaginable brought up to defend him next season


----------



## Islesfan22

Savant said:


> I dont know I dont follow Croatia. I would assume someone good to keep them out



It could be Brozovic who is in good form for inter Milan. Brozovic is not a winger though even though he has played there for club and country. Brozovic playing the regista position mostly in Italy lately . Kramaric must start either at wing or CF.


----------



## les Habs

Albatros said:


> Ancelotti essentially had his managerial reputation ruined by that job, despite winning the league just the same.




I've simply been referring to this forum.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bure80 said:


> Will there be a broadcast of Dortmunds game in LA in the US?




Probably. I'll post a link, if I see it.


----------



## Corto

cgf said:


> Yeah, kovac will have every excuse imaginable brought up to defend him next season




I still don't understand your problem with him.

He took Eintracht in a situation that looked destined to end in relegation, kept them up. Finished 7th twice in a row, with two Cup finals and the first trophy for Eintracht in 30 years - while, I'll also say, evolving as a coach and his team playing rather good football this season.

I enjoyed the salt in your comment though.


----------



## Corto

Savant said:


> Who should they start instead of?




Kramaric will start. Rebic won't, unless Perisic is out of form.

Subasic - Vrsaljko, Vida, Corluka/Lovren, a human playing LB - Modric, Rakitic, Kovacic/Brozovic - Perisic, Mandzukic, Kramaric


----------



## cgf

I have no problem with him. I will thoroughly enjoy watching him wreck Bayern for a few months.


----------



## Ivan13

cgf said:


> I have no problem with him. I will thoroughly enjoy watching him wreck Bayern for a few months.



I'm no fan of his, for various reasons - some non-football related - but your takes are patently absurd and petty at best. As Corto has said, he has evolved markedly from a guy who coached Croatia a handful of years ago, he made the most from the players he was given, created a system that fits with the personnel he had at his disposal and outperformed the expectations put before him. Yet you feel the need to talk in absolutes and proclaim him a failure before he even coaches a first match at Bayern. 

Is it possible he bombs? Yes, it is likely. Is it a dead certainty? No it's not, even though he is not the hipster German pick like Tuchel, Nagelssman, Favre etc.


----------



## cgf

Ah yes. The good ol “just give him a chance you damn hipster” defense. Ancelotti apologists loved that one. If only I weren’t such a hipster & gave him the chance I refused to give Capello, Hecking & Stöger


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> Ah yes. The good ol “just give him a chance you damn hipster” defense. Ancelotti apologists loved that one. If only I weren’t such a hipster & gave him the chance I refused to give Capello, Hecking & Stöger



I doubt Kovac does worse than Ancelotti. CL 1/4 exit and one national title will be the benchmark. Bayern wanted a German speaking coach, missed out on Tuchel and after that it's pretty slim.


----------



## PanniniClaus

Wolfsburg and Kiel in leg 2 today. Kiel have enough attacking chops to make this worth watching.

Should be wide open.


----------



## Bon Esprit

PanniniClaus said:


> Wolfsburg and Kiel in leg 2 today. Kiel have enough attacking chops to make this worth watching.
> 
> Should be wide open.



Problem is WOB only needs one goal and the series is over. I'm pulling for Holstein, of course, but I don't think they can get it done.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Ivan13 said:


> I'm no fan of his, for various reasons - some non-football related - but your takes are patently absurd and petty at best. As Corto has said, he has evolved markedly from a guy who coached Croatia a handful of years ago, he made the most from the players he was given, created a system that fits with the personnel he had at his disposal and outperformed the expectations put before him. Yet you feel the need to talk in absolutes and proclaim him a failure before he even coaches a first match at Bayern.
> 
> Is it possible he bombs? Yes, it is likely. Is it a dead certainty? No it's not, even though he is not the hipster German pick like Tuchel, Nagelssman, Favre etc.




Kovac has evolved into a decent coach but it's not just a matter of hipster opinion. He hasn't done nearly enough to merit the top coaching spot in Germany. I don't see how that's debatable. He got the position because he is a friend of the sporting director. He won't flop to the point where they won't win the league but he was far from the most deserving candidate - hipster or not.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Deficient Mode said:


> Kovac has evolved into a decent coach but it's not just a matter of hipster opinion. He hasn't done nearly enough to merit the top coaching spot in Germany. I don't see how that's debatable. He got the position because he is a friend of the sporting director. He won't flop to the point where they won't win the league but he was far from the most deserving candidate - hipster or not.



Do you seriously think Brazzo can hire a coach without Hoeneß and/or Rummenigge's permisson? Kovac was the only candidate. Tuchel was out, becausseBayern was too slow and Tuchel signed with PSG instead. Nagelsmann (who I highly doubt was in serious consideration) got a NO from HOF. What German speaking coach is/was available? Klopp is happy at LFC from what I read.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Bon Esprit said:


> Do you seriously think Brazzo can hire a coach without Hoeneß and/or Rummenigge's permisson? Kovac was the only candidate. Tuchel was out, becausseBayern was too slow and Tuchel signed with PSG instead. Nagelsmann (who I highly doubt was in serious consideration) got a NO from HOF. What German speaking coach is/was available? Klopp is happy at LFC from what I read.




Bayern flirted with and turned down Tuchel well before the rumors of his PSG signing were out.

Looks like Hasenhüttl is available now too.

If Nagelsmann didn't get "serious consideration" but Kovac did that's still a huge mistake from them.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

I think they hired someone they're more comfortable with..I don't know if that was the case with Tuchel. This may well come back to bite them in the you know what, but that would be good for the Bundesliga. Maybe this time they won't be able to call in Heynckes in November to turn things around.


----------



## Corto

Deficient Mode said:


> He got the position because he is a friend of the sporting director.




That is just utter bullcrap. And you know it.

If you think Hasan Salihamidzic goes about employing hs friends, without Hoeness and Rummenigge's approval, you're either being ignorant or deliberately obtuse for the sake of your argument (I'm betting its the latter).


----------



## Ivan13

Deficient Mode said:


> Kovac has evolved into a decent coach but it's not just a matter of hipster opinion. *He hasn't done nearly enough to merit the top coaching spot in Germany. I don't see how that's debatable.* He got the position because he is a friend of the sporting director. He won't flop to the point where they won't win the league but he was far from the most deserving candidate - hipster or not.




Good thing I'm not debating that. As I said I'm not a fan of his, nor do I think he is the level of the coach - at least not at this point in his career - that should be coaching a giant like Bayern, but I have a problem with petty, edgy claims that bring absolutely nothing to the table. If someone thinks Kovač will fail miserably and is a fraud, he should have no problem giving his insight on this rather than to just post inane one-liners.

Also, the claim that he got the position just because he is a friend of Brazzo is patently absurd.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Corto said:


> That is just utter bullcrap. And you know it.
> 
> If you think Hasan Salihamidzic goes about employing hs friends, without Hoeness and Rummenigge's approval, you're either being ignorant or deliberately obtuse for the sake of your argument (I'm betting its the latter).




Let me put in another way: he wouldn't have gotten the job ahead of more deserving candidates if they weren't friends. You can express this as "familiarity with Kovac" or whatever - and obviously Salihamidzic has better friends who didn't get the job, so it wasn't the only criteria - but that was what put Kovac over the top for the job.


----------



## Corto

Deficient Mode said:


> Let me put in another way: he wouldn't have gotten the job ahead of more deserving candidates if they weren't friends. You can express this as "familiarity with Kovac" or whatever - and obviously Salihamidzic has better friends who didn't get the job, so it wasn't the only criteria - *but that was what put Kovac over the top for the job*.




You see, the thing is, you don't know that. But you're saying it like you do.
Except you don't. 

And that's the bit I have issues with.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Corto said:


> You see, the thing is, you don't know that. But you're saying it like you do.
> Except you don't.
> 
> And that's the bit I have issues with.




Whether they made him coach over more deserving candidates because they were familiar with him, or if they thought he was as qualified and capable as those others - either way they deserve harsh criticism.


----------



## Corto

Deficient Mode said:


> Whether they made him coach over more deserving candidates because they were familiar with him, or if they thought he was as qualified and capable as those others - either way they deserve harsh criticism.




Who are these "more deserving" managers then? They were late on Tüchel, and the only other one in the conversation was Nagelsmann.
What Kovac has done with Eintracht is just as impressive as what Nagelsmann did with Hoffenheim. He took them from what looked like a club destined to be relegated to two high place finishes and their first trophy in 30 years (and another Cup final last season).

I do realize Nagelsmann is the "sexier" pick because he's like 14, but painting a picture that Kovac is 5 tiers below Nagelsmann (or any other German-speaking candidate that was in play) is ridiculous.
FWIW, its not like Kovac is 60, he's 46, which is pretty young for a manager.

And in the end, do you honestly think that Bayern would pick any manager currently available that they didn't think was the best for their club at the time?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Corto said:


> Who are these "more deserving" managers then? They were late on Tüchel, and the only other one in the conversation was Nagelsmann.
> What Kovac has done with Eintracht is just as impressive as what Nagelsmann did with Hoffenheim. He took them from what looked like a club destined to be relegated to two high place finishes and their first trophy in 30 years (and another Cup final last season).
> 
> I do realize Nagelsmann is the "sexier" pick because he's like 14, but painting a picture that Kovac is 5 tiers below Nagelsmann (or any other German-speaking candidate that was in play) is ridiculous.
> FWIW, its not like Kovac is 60, he's 46, which is pretty young for a manager.
> 
> And in the end, do you honestly think that Bayern would pick any manager currently available that they didn't think was the best for their club at the time?




Where is this "late on Tuchel" stuff coming from? There were numerous reports that they were negotiating with him months before they announced Kovac or he ended up at PSG.

What Kovac has done at Eintracht is nowhere close to as impressive as what Nagelsmann has done at Hoffenheim. Speaking of ridiculous arguments. Nagelsmann averaged 12.5 more points in the Bundesliga per 34 matches over Kovac and started with a relegation side, too. Why would I care about age? Nagelsmann is simply the far better manager. 

As I said, either way they deserve criticism. Not agreeing to terms with Tuchel, not prying Nagelsmann out of Hoffenheim hard enough, etc. Unlike cgf, I don't think Kovac is a nightmare manager anymore. Just far from Bayern's level.


----------



## cgf

Let's settle some of these myths. If Bayern's board weren't so full of themselves they could've had Tuchel long before PSG signed him. TT specifically didn't look at clubs abroad until after he found out he wouldn't get the Bayern job. Likewise, they could've had Nagelsmann if they didn't decide to do the dumb thing and bring in the guy they already know, the guy they know won't have a strong opinion of his own & will make a good patsy for the board.

So there were *much* better options available to them, even if they were only looking at german speaking coaches from the BuLi...even if I disagree with DM about Hassenhuttl being one of those better options as well. And pretending like their age is the only reason to hold such an opinion is just as disingenuous as me saying that y'all are only Kovac fans because he's a croat. Kovac is a worse choice because he's a worse coach, not because he's not as young. He's less tactically flexible, the tactics he does impliment aren't as sharp or extensive as TT or Nagelsmann's, and you can't even use the results as a defense for him since his results have been significantly less impressive than Nagelsmann or Tuchel's.


----------



## Albatros

cgf said:


> you can't even use the results as a defense for him since his results have been significantly less impressive than Nagelsmann or Tuchel's.




Kovač won the cup like Tuchel, albeit in fewer seasons and with a worse team. Nagelsmann hasn't won anything.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Why don't you Favre/Kovac critics do a betting game. Who is getting sacked first? The winner gets Nagelsmann.


----------



## cgf

Albatros said:


> Kovač won the cup like Tuchel, albeit in fewer seasons and with a worse team. Nagelsmann hasn't won anything.




lol see how badly kovac apologists have to reach to defend their man for getting left behind in the dust by Nagelsmann again?


----------



## Bon Esprit

Apparently SC Freiburg are buying Luca Waldschmidt from HSV for 5m. Did Freiburg ever spend that muchmoney? Seriously asking.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Bure80 said:


> Will there be a broadcast of Dortmunds game in LA in the US?


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Good, now bring in a starter at the position.


----------



## Albatros

cgf said:


> lol see how badly kovac apologists have to reach to defend their man for getting left behind in the dust by Nagelsmann again?




I don't think that a reigning champion needs to apologize for anything. Veni, vidi, vici.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure it's easier to win at Hoffenheim than at Eintracht Frankfurt. Considerably bigger wage budget there. Let's not forget, it's not too long ago that some people here doubted Kovac's ability to keep Frankfurt in the league. Finishing 8th and winning the Cup is a really good season for them in this day and age. 

I'll be honest, I don't expect Kovac to succeed in Munich, but it wouldn't be the first time for him to surprise everyone and exceed expectations.


----------



## sabremike

Word over here is that Tyler Adams to Leipzig is a done deal but he will finish out the season here before heading to Deutschland. Knew he was gone after this season, I'm just glad he will stay for the full season and hopefully he leads us to that elusive title.


----------



## Deficient Mode

oooooh this news won't please @cgf



(Unless they're partners in Gladbach hmmmmm)


----------



## cgf

As long as PSG gives gladbach 40M for him, we're gucci. Need to find minutes for Cuisance, Benes & Neuhaus somehow


----------



## Corto

Deficient Mode said:


> Where is this "late on Tuchel" stuff coming from? There were numerous reports that they were negotiating with him months before they announced Kovac or he ended up at PSG.




That's basically it, they were negotiating for a while, PSG came in with a money offer and then it was too late.
He was their #1 choice (and they reportedly inquired about Klopp as well).



> What Kovac has done at Eintracht is nowhere close to as impressive as what Nagelsmann has done at Hoffenheim. Speaking of ridiculous arguments. Nagelsmann averaged 12.5 more points in the Bundesliga per 34 matches over Kovac and started with a relegation side, too. Why would I care about age? Nagelsmann is simply the far better manager.




Hoffenheim has twice the wage budget that Eintracht has though, to be fair.
For all the great work Nagelsmann's done , their board and their scouting has been bringing in the right players, it has to be said.
Getting a guy like Kramaric for next to nothing is inspired (though he'll likely be gone after the WC).
This doesn't take anything away from Nagelsmann, don't get me wrong, but they've had some top footballers in Hoffenheim in the last 2 years.

But even without going into comparison, you have to be blind not to see the work Kovac did with Eintracht, or how impressive it was.
Saved from relegation, then two high place finishes and two Cup finals, including a win over Bayern for freaking Eintracht Frankfurt... 

We don't know whether Tuchel or Nagelsmann ever wanted to come at this point, or maybe were just swayed by money (Tuchel) or promises etc (Nagelsmann).
And I'm not saying Kovac is the next Cruyff or Michels here, just that in that current situation, knowing that negotiations with some other candidates fell through, picking him made as much sense as any other potential candidate.
And again, assigning blame and accusing people of this and that on the internet without actually knowing how the process went or even remotely what was happening and how it all went down... That's silly.


----------



## cgf

You are incorrect. Bayern could've had TT or Nagelsmann if they had wanted. I can't say for sure about Favre or anyone else, but I know for a fact that those two were waiting for the Bayern gig

And it’s a lot easier to bring in the right guys when your coach can teach anyone how to be useful...even reknowned dumb dumbs like Demirbay.


----------



## Corto

cgf said:


> You are incorrect. Bayern could've had TT or Nagelsmann if they had wanted.




You don't actually know that. None of us do. All we have is speculations and conjecture. 
And we have absolutely no clue how the negotiations (if there were any) went.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Hradecky to Leverkusen is done. Time for Leno to move on.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Corto said:


> This doesn't take anything away from Nagelsmann, don't get me wrong, but they've had some top footballers in Hoffenheim in the last 2 years.




Most of them became top footballers at Hoffenheim, or improved dramatically. That's part of Nagelsmann's deal. Kramaric isn't the best example of that, but he certainly played much better at Hoffenheim than he did at Leicester.


----------



## cgf

Corto said:


> You don't actually know that. None of us do. All we have is speculations and conjecture.
> And we have absolutely no clue how the negotiations (if there were any) went.




That’s what I’m saying, this isn’t just conjecture, I have been told for a fact that Nagelsmann wouldn’t even talk to Dortmund about replacing Stöger because he was waiting for the Bayern job


----------



## samabam

Bon Esprit said:


> Apparently SC Freiburg are buying Luca Waldschmidt from HSV for 5m. Did Freiburg ever spend that muchmoney? Seriously asking.




Mehmedi cost 6Million in 2014, Ravet 4.5 just last year

and now they got Dominique Heintz for 3 Million just today...Soyüncu replacement I guess...


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

cgf said:


> That’s what I’m saying, this isn’t just conjecture, I have been told for a fact that Nagelsmann wouldn’t even talk to Dortmund about replacing Stöger because he was waiting for the Bayern job




To be fair, unless he told you that himself..how is that not hearsay?


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> To be fair, unless he told you that himself..how is that not hearsay?




*shrug* that's what folks in BVB's PR department were told in the spring


----------



## Bon Esprit

samabam said:


> Mehmedi cost 6Million in 2014, Ravet 4.5 just last year
> 
> and now they got Dominique Heintz for 3 Million just today...Soyüncu replacement I guess...



Okay, thanks. And thanks for "stealing" Heintze.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Ralf Rangnick apparently will coach RB Leipzig next season.
Sportdirektor übernimmt selbst! Ralf Rangnick wird Trainer von RB Leipzig


----------



## cgf

lol that club is losing its mind this summer. Hopefully all of the kids in their academy move to clubs where they'll actually see some PT, cause RB looks like they're cracking open the warchest to bring young talent in all over the place.


----------



## Deficient Mode

cgf said:


> I love to see that ambition from them. I was worried that they would be content with his first two seasons on the whole & wouldn't have the courage to replace Hasenhuttl until he had had another season to prove that he can not organizer possession.






cgf said:


> lol that club is losing its mind this summer. Hopefully all of the kids in their academy move to clubs where they'll actually see some PT, cause RB looks like they're cracking open the warchest to bring young talent in all over the place.




How quickly you changed your tune


----------



## cgf

Deficient Mode said:


> How quickly you changed your tune




Yeah, they've pissed me off with their refusal to give their academy kids a chance, and now they're buying multiple kids for each spot just to make sure they don't ever have to risk giving their own youths a chance.


----------



## cgf

If Schalke can wrap their shopping up with Mertens, they're going to be a very interesting team next season...despite losing Goretzka & Meyer for free. Uth, Serdar & Sane already signed for next season; Geis coming back from Sevilla for Tedesco to fix (the way his buddy Nagelsman fixed Demirbay); and they have a raft of young talents that are close to breaking through at the senior level with Krüger, Wright, Goller, Taitague, Kübler, Can, etc. 

As things stand they're looking at something like:

FW: Uth | Burgstaller | Embolo | Teuchert
AM: Harit | Konoplyanka | Serdar
DM: McKennie | Bentaleb | Geis
LWB: Ozcipka | Baba
RWB: Caliguri | Schopf
CB: Kehrer | Nastasic | Sane | Stambouli | Naldo

Nevermind that the 50M euro man, Donis Avdijaj is coming back from loan as well


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Bon Esprit said:


> Ralf Rangnick apparently will coach RB Leipzig next season.
> Sportdirektor übernimmt selbst! Ralf Rangnick wird Trainer von RB Leipzig




Rangnick deserves credit for being one of the first modernizers in German football back in the day, but he's always struck me as someone who's tough to work with and who is a little too much in love with his own ideas.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Glad RB made the coaching change, disaster of a season for them imo. They underachieved badly and I didn't pay attention to them in the second half but I had a lot of issues with their coaching and selection in the first half.


----------



## TheBrew

1860 is off to the 3rd league! Wooo


----------



## Albatros

Sieg oder Spielabbruch in Mannheim:



Would have loved to see Waldhof get promoted, but this is just destitute.


----------



## cgf

Man f*** Watzke...Netzer highlights lead to Effenberg highlights lead to this:



Favre is a good save...for however long he can put up with the job...but I'm not going to stop being salty about not getting to watch Mo magic for Tuchel any time soon.


----------



## Alex Jones

cgf said:


> lol that club is losing its mind this summer. Hopefully all of the kids in their academy move to clubs where they'll actually see some PT, cause RB looks like they're cracking open the warchest to bring young talent in all over the place.



Leipzig are going to go Manchester City mode. Salzburg is a RB farm team, so maybe some players can go there I guess, I think they play in Champions next season... I wonder if Red Bull will try to buy a farm team in a top five league the same way City bought Girona. Can't wait for the biggest clubs in the world to be City, PSG, Leipzig and Madrid.


----------



## John Pedro

cgf said:


> Man f*** Watzke...Netzer highlights lead to Effenberg highlights lead to this:
> 
> 
> 
> Favre is a good save...for however long he can put up with the job...but I'm not going to stop being salty about not getting to watch Mo magic for Tuchel any time soon.





I mean, Verratti is no Dahoud but gonna be nice to watch what Tuchel can work with him.


----------



## cgf

John Pedro said:


> I mean, Verratti is no Dahoud but gonna be nice to watch what Tuchel can work with him.




Meh, they're no Dahoud, Rafael & Stindl, but I guess I'll settle for watching what he can do with Neymar, Mbappe & Verratti...


----------



## cgf

Alex Jones said:


> Leipzig are going to go Manchester City mode. Salzburg is a RB farm team, so maybe some players can go there I guess, I think they play in Champions next season... I wonder if Red Bull will try to buy a farm team in a top five league the same way City bought Girona. Can't wait for the biggest clubs in the world to be City, PSG, Leipzig and Madrid.




Yeah, I just hope their academy kids realize it fast enough not to waste any development time waiting for a senior team spot that's never going to come.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Alex Jones said:


> Leipzig are going to go Manchester City mode. Salzburg is a RB farm team, so maybe some players can go there I guess, I think they play in Champions next season... I wonder if Red Bull will try to buy a farm team in a top five league the same way City bought Girona. Can't wait for the biggest clubs in the world to be City, PSG, Leipzig and Madrid.




Red Bull are definitely NOT sinking money into Leipzig the way City's and PSG's owners have. Especially since it's company owned and a marketing project for the company. If they had wanted to throw money away, they would have already started doing so.


----------



## cgf

It always creeps me out when real life rips off my dreams


----------



## Bon Esprit

Wolf (Frankfurt) to Dortmund is official
https://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/1-bundesliga/transfer-ticker-sommer-2018-55480722.bild.html


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

He'll be a good wing-back option, but I'm not sure how he's used, otherwise. We have a lot of wingers, and I don't think he's near the front of the list.


----------



## Albatros

A nice article about being a Gladbach fan in the GDR:

Bundesliga-Fans in der DDR: Wolles verbotene Liebe - SPIEGEL ONLINE - einestages


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Its only against Bolivia, but he's played twice for the USA, and he's been the best player on the field both matches. I think he'll start showing this more often in the Bundesliga next season. Helps that Goretzka and Meyer are on the way out, and he should get more minutes.


----------



## Evilo

Harit rookie of the year.


----------



## cgf

Werder being linked to Godfrey Donsah as their Delaney replacement. They've been doing some shrewd business so far with Osaka & Möhwald, even if buying Harnik begs the question why they bother selling Belfodil. Plus they're expected to give Mbom, JoJo, Philipp, Sargent, & maybe Troure shots to earn some minutes this summer. That backline is still a massive concern; although I do think Veljkovic, Augistinsson, Bauer & Friedl have some talent to stick around old man Langkamp.

They could be a fun team if health & kids arriving from the academy line up right.


----------



## ecemleafs

what is schalke doing to replace goretzka and meyer?


----------



## Bon Esprit

Let's speculate a bit. Who's not gonna make the cut tomorrow?
My candidates are:
Trapp - Neuer is the nr. 1 again, so one has to go.
Tah - his time will come, but after this WC
Brandt or Rudy - I can't decide. Both were playing yesterday and neither impressed me
Petersen - I don't think he should be on the NT in the first place


----------



## cgf

ecemleafs said:


> what is schalke doing to replace goretzka and meyer?




Even without LeGo & Meyer they still have Harit, Konoplyanka, & McKennie; who already played big roles in their midfield for Tedesco...moreso the first two, but McKennie was also a regular in the rotation; especially after Meyer was frozen out. Additionally: Bentaleb is still around; Geis is returning from Sevilla; their academy has some strong talents that Tedesco could use in the midfield (Kübler, Taitague, Tekpetey & Goller being the four that look like they'll be pushing for time with the senior team this coming season).

On the signings front, they've brought in *Serdar* from Mainz, who has a lot of Demirbay to his game...although I have the same concerns with him that I had with Demirbay before Nagelsmann fixed him, and frankly that I still have Goretzka even after the progress he made under Tedesco. They also signed *Skrzybski* from my eiserne, who Tedesco may use as an advanced midfielder the way he has Konoplyanka.

I think swapping Bentaleb (and Geis) for (a) deeper midfielder(s) that Tedesco rates more would be a good idea, but they're actually in a pretty good spot where things stand now with:

Harit/Serdar* - Kono/Serdar*
McKennie/Serdar**

*Skrzybski, Kübler & Taitague
**Kübler, Geis & Bentaleb​They've been linked to *Mascarell*, *Rudy*, *Delaney*, & *Bissouma*, with some seriousness...though Dortmund seem more likely to pay the crazy fee for Delaney than Heidel, and I don't see Rudy leaving this summer; even if he's not in Kovac's plans for however long he keeps the job...and some very tenuous rumors connected them to *Ziyech* & *Gbamin*.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

I am not going to pretend I watched a ton of Hoffenheim games when Rudy was there..but for Germany he seems to be a guy that whenever he plays you are surprised he did because you didn't see him do anything of note during the match. I suppose his versatility is his strength to some extent and that may secure his spot in the squad..but I don't think I'd be comfortable with him getting regular playing time.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> Let's speculate a bit. Who's not gonna make the cut tomorrow?
> My candidates are:
> Trapp - Neuer is the nr. 1 again, so one has to go.
> Tah - his time will come, but after this WC
> Brandt or Rudy - I can't decide. Both were playing yesterday and neither impressed me
> Petersen - I don't think he should be on the NT in the first place




I'd cut:
*Trapp|Leno*; 
both suck, so it doesn't matter which one of them wants to be bitchboy for Manu & MAtS in practice.
*
Rüdiger|Ginter*; 
Rüdiger just makes too many errors and takes too long on the ball, Ginter's not as bad in those areas but he's also slower. Either way I'm taking Süle & Tah ahead of them...even if Vogt should actually be our #3 CB. I'd cut Rüdiger, but don't think it matters much.

*Petersen|Gomez*; 
They're coming along to be a joker if everything goes to shit and we have to lump in crosses at the end of a match, so only 1 is needed. Gomez has the pedigree, but he has historically been less effective as a joker than as a starter, while Petersen is the most prolific Joker in BuLi history...so I'm tempted to leave Mario behind, though ask me about it again tomorrow and I'll give you a different answer.

*Plattenhart*|Draxler|Khedira; 
Plattenhart is just the weak link in this provisional squad, even moreso than Petersen/Gomez; as I'd rather play Rudy than him at LB in a back 4, and I'd rather play Sane than him on the left wing when we play a back 3. He just doesn't bring anything to the table that we need.

Draxler I initially had as one of my cuts because he'd be my 5th choice on the wings, but I've recently been convinced that maybe he really is a miscast 8...which is why he didn't start to flourish in Paris until being played there. And that would put him in a fight with Goretzka & Khedira for a spot behind Ilkay & Mesut; rather than with Sane, Müller, Reus & Brandt on the wing. Which is what made me consider cutting Sami, who may be superfluous if our midfield depth chart looks something like:

Özil/Julian - Ilkay/LeGo
Kroos/Rudy​But in the end, I'd rather see Sami on the pitch than Plattenhart, despite all the shit I've talked about him and the desire to remove the temptation of over-playing him from Jogi.


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> I am not going to pretend I watched a ton of Hoffenheim games when Rudy was there..but for Germany he seems to be a guy that whenever he plays you are surprised he did because you didn't see him do anything of note during the match. I suppose his versatility is his strength to some extent and that may secure his spot in the squad..but I don't think I'd be comfortable with him getting regular playing time.




You're not supposed to notice him. His utility is in how swiftly he moves the ball to the players you are supposed to notice, and the structure/rhythm he gives our play by doing so. He's not Toni, but he's the only other player we picked (other than Kimmich) who can sit in front of our backline all game and keep the ball flowing the way we need from our 6...and he has a similarly positive effect on the collective's flow with the ball at FB/WB.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

cgf said:


> Even without LeGo & Meyer they still have Harit, Konoplyanka, & McKennie; who already played big roles in their midfield for Tedesco...moreso the first two, but McKennie was also a regular in the rotation; especially after Meyer was frozen out. Additionally: Bentaleb is still around; Geis is returning from Sevilla; their academy has some strong talents that Tedesco could use in the midfield (Kübler, Taitague, Tekpetey & Goller being the four that look like they'll be pushing for time with the senior team this coming season).
> 
> On the signings front, they've brought in *Serdar* from Mainz, who has a lot of Demirbay to his game...although I have the same concerns with him that I had with Demirbay before Nagelsmann fixed him, and frankly that I still have Goretzka even after the progress he made under Tedesco. They also signed *Skrzybski* from my eiserne, who Tedesco may use as an advanced midfielder the way he has Konoplyanka.
> 
> I think swapping Bentaleb (and Geis) for (a) deeper midfielder(s) that Tedesco rates more would be a good idea, but they're actually in a pretty good spot where things stand now with:
> 
> Harit/Serdar* - Kono/Serdar*
> McKennie/Serdar**
> 
> *Skrzybski, Kübler & Taitague
> **Kübler, Geis & Bentaleb​They've been linked to *Mascarell*, *Rudy*, *Delaney*, & *Bissouma*, with some seriousness...though Dortmund seem more likely to pay the crazy fee for Delaney than Heidel, and I don't see Rudy leaving this summer; even if he's not in Kovac's plans for however long he keeps the job...and some very tenuous rumors connected them to *Ziyech* & *Gbamin*.




Probably going to be Bentaleb, McKennie, Serdar and one other player that they bring in. If they don't bring in anyone good, I guess they could always just keep Geis instead of selling him.


----------



## cgf

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Probably going to be Bentaleb, McKennie, Serdar and one other player that they bring in. If they don't bring in anyone good, I guess they could always just keep Geis instead of selling him.




A lot also depends on how they plan to play. Cause Tedesco often used two deeper midfielders behind Harit & Kono, or some other pair of advanced midfielders/skilled attackers. So if neither Bentaleb nor Geis can ingratiate themselves with Tedesco, and their kids aren't ready to step up, they could need a few signings to bolster that deeper midfield depth...but if Bentaleb & Geis do progress under Tedesco; or are swapped for option that Tedesco will trust; they're in a pretty solid spot even if they play mostly out of a 3-4-2-1/3-6-1:

Burgstaller/Uth
Harit/Embolo - Kono/Skrzybski
Oczipka/Baba - McKennie/Geis - Serdar/Bentaleb - Caligiuri/Schöpf
Nastasic/Insua - Sane/Naldo - Kehrer/Stambouli

Teuchert, Krüger, Wright, (Reese), Goller, Tekpetey, (Avdijaj), Taitague & Kübler fighting for PT or needing to be sent out on loan.​


----------



## Bon Esprit

Leno, Tah and Petersen are out. 4th player to be announced in a few minutes.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Leroy Sane s out, too


----------



## Bon Esprit

I understand the first three:
Leno has no contract for next season (The Napoli deal fell through yesterday)
As said yesterday, Tah's time will come after this tournament, the nomination of Petersen I never really understood.
Sane is a tricky one. He was really bad vs. Austria, but 90 per cent of te team was.


----------



## Ducks76

Bon Esprit said:


> I understand the first three:
> Leno has no contract for next season (The Napoli deal fell through yesterday)
> As said yesterday, Tah's time will come after this tournament, the nomination of Petersen I never really understood.
> Sane is a tricky one. He was really bad vs. Austria, but 90 per cent of te team was.



The performance from Sane in N11 and Club are very different. He make an impression as to be completely out of place incl. his body language isn t very good.


----------



## Just Win

Bon Esprit said:


> I understand the first three:
> *Leno has no contract for next season* (The Napoli deal fell through yesterday)
> As said yesterday, Tah's time will come after this tournament, the nomination of Petersen I never really understood.
> Sane is a tricky one. He was really bad vs. Austria, but 90 per cent of te team was.




Leno's contract with Leverkusen runs until 2020, he just has activated his buy-out clause and is looking for a new club. But that can't really be the argument. Trapp has been on PSG's bench all season and unless he is happy with that, he is looking for a new club as well. Going into a tourney with 2 out of 3 goalies having no match praxis just doesn't seems smart to me....

Tah is no surprise, not because he isn't good enough but because Löw just never gives him a chance (13 times nominated, only played in 3 games, never more than 45 minues).

Sane just has too much talent to leave him off the team. I would have left Draxler or Rudy at home for him easily.


----------



## Bure80

Later in a half hour sport1 Shows the U17 half final between Dortmund and Leverkusen. Im very exited to see Moukoko for the first time. Maybe you find a stream if you are interested.


----------



## cgf

Bure80 said:


> Later in a half hour sport1 Shows the U17 half final between Dortmund and Leverkusen. Im very exited to see Moukoko for the first time. Maybe you find a stream if you are interested.




Is that a replay? I feel like a link to this match was posted in the prospects thread and I remember watching Moukoko score a pretty goal against the Leverkusen-ers.


----------



## Bure80

cgf said:


> Is that a replay? I feel like a link to this match was posted in the prospects thread and I remember watching Moukoko score a pretty goal against the Leverkusen-ers.




No, it was Dortmunds home game. Both teams have their home game, like in CL . The final next week is played in Munich.
Moukoko has awesome Speed for a 13 year old and a very good shot. He nearly scored a very nice freekick Goal.


----------



## cgf

Bure80 said:


> No, it was Dortmunds home game. Both teams have their home game, like in CL . The final next week is played in Munich.




Yeah, I wasn't fully woken up yet...f***in Cali-time!!! can't wait to be back in Chicago...and for some reason thought that had been the final and not the SF 

Sounds like Moukoko & OBM were decisive yet again for the two finalists. God do I hope those two can reach their ceilings for the NT.

EDIT:
btw, did you notice Ware Pakia? He's a 2002er that some are starting to hype but I'm generally skeptical of the folks he's getting that hype from & haven't seen him myself to judge.


----------



## cgf

Man, f*** those pill pushers. Like I want to see them fail, but they have the talent to be really exciting next season if they moved Henrichs back to the 8 now that they have Wendell & Weiser to start at FB:

*Volland*/Alario
*Brandt*/Paulinho - *Kai*** - *Bailey*/Paulinho
*Baumgartlinger**** - *Henrichs*/Schreck
*Wendell*/Jedvaj - *Tah** - *Retsos** - *Weiser*/Lars
*Hradecky*


**Volland | Brandt | Schreck
***Arranguiz | Lars | Akkaynak | Kohr
*Jedvaj | Sven | Dragovic | Lars​Cause without Henrichs moving to the 8, it's not like they'd play a 4-1-3-2 that would be beautiful:

*Volland*/Brandt - *Alario*/Brandt
*Brandt*/Paulinho - *Kai*** - *Bailey*/Paulinho
*Baumgartlinger*/Arranguiz***
*Wendell*/Henrichs - *Tah** - *Retsos** - *Weiser*/Henrichs
*Hradecky*

**Brandt | Schreck
***Lars | Akkaynak | Kohr
*Jedvaj | Sven | Dragovic | Lars​


----------



## Bure80

cgf said:


> EDIT:
> btw, did you notice Ware Pakia? He's a 2002er that some are starting to hype but I'm generally skeptical of the folks he's getting that hype from & haven't seen him myself to judge.




If i remember right he came in late. So its not possible to judge him on the few minutes. Beside Moukoko i didnt know a player from the Team.


----------



## cgf

Bure80 said:


> If i remember right he came in late. So its not possible to judge him on the few minutes. Beside Moukoko i didnt know a player from the Team.




He came on around the hour mark, I think, so I was just curious if he got any touches that made you notice him. I know that's nowhere near enough time to judge a player, but it can be enough time to show some flashes, ya know?


----------



## Bure80

cgf said:


> Is that a replay? I feel like a link to this match was posted in the prospects thread and I remember watching Moukoko score a pretty goal against the Leverkusen-ers.




The Goal vs Leverkusen in the first match.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

That Dortmund U17 squad is stacked. There might be 2, 3, 4 first team players from that team.


----------



## Nalens Oga

I just realized that Low has brought on 5 CBs and left Sane. Was there really a need for all 5 CBs? Ginter is a great player and all but really needed the flexibility of bringing on Sane instead of him, I don't trust Brandt. And it probably wouldn't have hurt to have Wagner on there too.


----------



## cgf

Nalens Oga said:


> I just realized that Low has brought on 5 CBs and left Sane. Was there really a need for all 5 CBs? Ginter is a great player and all but really needed the flexibility of bringing on Sane instead of him, I don't trust Brandt. *And it probably wouldn't have hurt to have Wagner on there too.*




It must certainly would have.


----------



## cgf

@Bon Esprit 

Füllkrug to BMG is apparently a medical away from going down. You’ve watched more of him than I, is he the next Stindl or Kruse? Or am I right to worry this will be Drmic 2.0 / the striker version of buying Grifo?


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> @Bon Esprit
> 
> Füllkrug to BMG is apparently a medical away from going down. You’ve watched more of him than I, is he the next Stindl or Kruse? Or am I right to worry this will be Drmic 2.0 / the striker version of buying Grifo?



He is closer to Kruse than to Stindl. IMO our best player.
Gladbach bidding 13m and Kind still says NO. We lost Harnik and Sane. We can't afford to loose Füllkrug. Especially when I read Kind wants Wood from Hamburg as a replacement.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

And let's be real here..13m was a lot of money..10 years ago, now ehh not so much. Wait until an English club comes knocking and ask for 20 then.


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> He is closer to Kruse than to Stindl. IMO our best player.
> Gladbach bidding 13m and Kind still says NO. We lost Harnik and Sane. We can't afford to loose Füllkrug. Especially when I read Kind wants Wood from Hamburg as a replacement.




I read that the total was close to being agreed around 17m. With the exact payment structure still being worked out. But this was before a gladbach insider said that everything was sorted pending a medical check next week.

I can't say I have too much cause to be anxious about it given that review & how well Eberl's last Hannover purchase worked out...guess I'm just letting how underwhelmed by him I was 3 or 4 years ago taint my impression of him now...basically the same thing I call Evilo out for doing with Aubamayeng.

But 17m is big money for BMG to spend, and with Hecking around I will always worry that Eberl is trying to accommodate him too much with his larger purchases...so I'm always anxious any time BMG buys anyone older than 20 without first loaning them in 



TheMoreYouKnow said:


> And let's be real here..13m was a lot of money..10 years ago, now ehh not so much. Wait until an English club comes knocking and ask for 20 then.




Oh f*** off with your isn't a lot of money bullshit. If it blows up 17m is a significant blow to the warchest Eberl has squirreled away. Even if he's able to compensate for it with shrewd moves & kids. 

Nevermind that they player wants Gladbach and has already agreed to terms with them, so an english club would have to swoop in ASAP...and we all know that's not how english clubs roll.


----------



## Bon Esprit

17m is alot of money, but by today's standard he will be worth it. Very good player who knows where the goal stand and the will to score.
For us it is crap. After our first season in the league we are losing our best three players. And after the disaster with those Brazilian who's name me always escapes, because he NEVER plays, I'm not confident Heldt will spent the money well. Oh yeah, we also have this Dane, who also NEVER plays.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

It's a lot of money for Gladbach to spend, but it isn't a lot of money for Hannover to receive. They'll probably buy 3 or 4 guys and no-one knows if they'll be useful at the BuLi level. 

That's how teams fade away in Germany..sell your best guys for a sum that sounds tidy but really isn't all that in the world football context..because it's not like that money will buy you proven performers. You'll have to get some guy from a French mid-table club, a bench player from a good club, some Brazilian or African offered up by crafty but less than trustworthy agents.


----------



## cgf

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> It's a lot of money for Gladbach to spend, but it isn't a lot of money for Hannover to receive. They'll probably buy 3 or 4 guys and no-one knows if they'll be useful at the BuLi level.
> 
> That's how teams fade away in Germany..sell your best guys for a sum that sounds tidy but really isn't all that in the world football context..because it's not like that money will buy you proven performers. You'll have to get some guy from a French mid-table club, a bench player from a good club, some Brazilian or African offered up by crafty but less than trustworthy agents.




That's also the reality of football for 99% of clubs. You have to do well with the money you get when your players want to leave for bigger teams. You wouldn't want the changes it would take to alter this reality that the rest of us have to live with...


----------



## cgf

Bon Esprit said:


> 17m is alot of money, but by today's standard he will be worth it. Very good player who knows where the goal stand and the will to score.
> For us it is crap. After our first season in the league we are losing our best three players. And after the disaster with those Brazilian who's name me always escapes, because he NEVER plays, I'm not confident Heldt will spent the money well. Oh yeah, we also have this Dane, who also NEVER plays.



For what it's worth, I think Heldt has done a better job for you than he did Schalke. And we've been seeing more & more of your academy kids popping up in youth NT circles. So I'm optimistic with you guys moving


----------



## Bon Esprit

cgf said:


> For what it's worth, I think Heldt has done a better job for you than he did Schalke. And we've been seeing more & more of your academy kids popping up in youth NT circles. So I'm optimistic with you guys moving



Right, Heldt might not be the issue, but Nosferatu is sitting on his money. Btw. Union are acquiring two of our players, Hübner and Schmiedebach.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Dortmund signed some third keeper from Bremen's reserves. Lets hope he never sees the field.


----------



## Bure80

Looks like Diallo to Dortmund is almost sure.
Zorc bestätigt: Mainzer hat sich für den BVB entschieden


----------



## Eisen

Bure80 said:


> Looks like Diallo to Dortmund is almost sure.
> Zorc bestätigt: Mainzer hat sich für den BVB entschieden



As usual, the good guys go.


----------



## Bure80

Eisen said:


> As usual, the good guys go.




You are Mainz Fan? So maybe you can say a bit more about him. Havnt watched to many Mainz games this year.


----------



## Eisen

Bure80 said:


> You are Mainz Fan? So maybe you can say a bit more about him. Havnt watched to many Mainz games this year.



He's very versatile. Can play central defense or the left side or defensive midfield. And he's not just an iron footed defender, he can make plays. One of the very few bright spots last year.


----------



## Bure80

Nice to hear. Exactly what Dortmund needs. Atleast Mainz got good transfer fee.


----------



## Evilo

He's not very tall either, but is a nice leaper.


----------



## Eisen

Bure80 said:


> Nice to hear. Exactly what Dortmund needs. Atleast Mainz got good transfer fee.



They did. And they will buy a cheap guy somewhere again, sell him at a profit all the while going nowhere. But that's the game for a middling club. I accept that, but I'm not so happy about it.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Our CB options are looking pretty good for next season. Toprak and Akanji should be one of the best pairings in the league. Having Diallo as a versatile first back up option in a number of positions should help. I wouldn’t even be surprised if Diallo ends up playing a lot of LB, given Schmelzer and Guerreiro aren’t the best options there. And hopefully Favre is willing to develop Zagadou. I liked the job Bosz did with him. Stooges acted like he didn’t even exist.


----------



## Bon Esprit

Castro and Divavi to Stuttgart.
Füllkrug stays at Hannover 96, Gladbach now is after Plea from Nice instead.


----------



## Deficient Mode

What an idiot


----------



## Evilo




----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Apparently Marrakesh police are now saying that it was Harit himself driving the car.


----------



## Eisen

Deficient Mode said:


> What an idiot




And probably the celeb will get a little slap on the wrist for it. We saw it before.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Eisen said:


> And probably the celeb will get a little slap on the wrist for it. We saw it before.




Schalke will most likely respond in some way too.


----------



## Eisen

Big Kahuna said:


> Schalke will most likely respond in some way too.



Definitely.


----------



## Albatros

Harit shouldn't ever play in the Bundesliga again, manslaughter is just inexcusable and no team with any integrity can tolerate a player like that.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Big Kahuna said:


> Schalke will most likely respond in some way too.




Considering the silence surrounding Marcos Alonso - and assuming Harit was the one driving - I doubt the collective response from football clubs will be adequate - whether Schalke terminates his contract or not.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

> On Saturday (June 30), sports director Christian Heidel managed to get in touch with Harit, who is still in shock. The player described Heidel the terrible events of the previous night. As a driver of the car, he had no way of preventing the tragic accident.
> The police have recorded the accident. After receiving his testimony Harit was able to leave the police station. Currently, the 21-year-old stays with his family in Morocco and is mentally cared for.
> "First and foremost, Amine's deep compassion, as well as that of all of us at FC Schalke 04, applies to the survivors of the victim," says Christian Heidel: "We are now in constant contact with Amine."


----------



## bluesfan94

It finally started annoying me.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I misspoke. 

Goetze might not be beginning full training the first day of the season, if I read into his instagram post correctly.

But still, he should be ready for game 1. They've been saying he would be. Occasionally some players don't participate full the first few days.


----------



## BergyDGD

I started following FC St. Pauli in Bundesliga 2. Really cool seeing their links within the punk rock scene and the philosophy of the club.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Guerreiro out 3-4 months now too after his ankle surgery. So glad Portugal dragged him along to a Mickey Mouse tournament - where he exacerbated his injury - and then had him wait another couple of weeks to get an operation.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Guerreiro out 3-4 months now too after his ankle surgery. So glad Portugal dragged him along to a Mickey Mouse tournament - where he exacerbated his injury - and then had him wait another couple of weeks to get an operation.




I had pencilled him in as a starter next to Dahoud until Weigl returns. Now we probably gotta start Castro or both of Goetze and Kagawa. Can't mess around starting Sahin, Rode, Bender in CM. Maybe Burnic gets a run in CM now.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I had pencilled him in as a starter next to Dahoud until Weigl returns. Now we probably gotta start Castro or both of Goetze and Kagawa. Can't mess around starting Sahin, Rode, Bender in CM. Maybe Burnic gets a run in CM now.




Burnic has been loaned to Stuttgart.

Dahoud could play as the deeper DM with Castro and GÃ¶tze above him. Kagawa and Merino could rotate in as well. That could work against inferior opponents even if it's not ideal. Fortunately they don't have any super difficult fixtures before Weigl is on track to return, unless you count the Supercup.


----------



## WhiskeySeven*

How will Schalke fare next season?


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## Deficient Mode

WhiskeySeven said:


> How will Schalke fare next season?




Honestly I could see them finishing much higher. Their new manager seems pretty good from the little I've heard and read, and they'll get a boost from not having European competition to tire them out. The team on paper is still way better than 10th.


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## Just Win

Bochum just fired Verbeek and will most likely hire Lotte's Atalan as replacement. Weird timing.


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## Eye of Ra

BVB should play 3-5-2 with Guerrio injured.

Burki
Bartra - Sokratis - Toprak
GÃ¶tze - Dahoud - Weigl - Passlack - DembÃ©lÃ©
Reus - Aubameyang


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## Wee Baby Seamus

Eye of Ra said:


> BVB should play 3-5-2 with Guerrio injured.
> 
> Burki
> Bartra - Sokratis - Toprak
> GÃ¶tze - Dahoud - Weigl - Passlack - DembÃ©lÃ©
> Reus - Aubameyang




1. Reus and Weigl will both be out for the start of the season; Reus won't be back until well after Guerreiro is. 
2. Gotze and Dembele as wing-backs? Prepare to get shredded out wide. 
3. Has Passlack ever played CM before? Genuine question, I've only known him as a right back.


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## WhiskeySeven*

Deficient Mode said:


> Honestly I could see them finishing much higher. Their new manager seems pretty good from the little I've heard and read, and they'll get a boost from not having European competition to tire them out. The team on paper is still way better than 10th.



Nastasic isn't going anywhere, then?

I hope Goretzka has a monster year (and then joins that small team south east in Bavaria that could really use him). I've always liked Schalke, will pay closer attention this year.


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## Cin

Zagadou is already impressing me tremendously. Dude is going to be an incredible player.


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## Bure80

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> 1. Reus and Weigl will both be out for the start of the season; Reus won't be back until well after Guerreiro is.
> 2. Gotze and Dembele as wing-backs? Prepare to get shredded out wide.
> 3. Has Passlack ever played CM before? Genuine question, I've only known him as a right back.





Passlack played his whole youth career as CM. He had 17 goals and 18 assists in 24 games in the Youth Bundesliga


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## cgf

He played primarily as a winger at the u19s and was always a winger with the u17 youth team *shrug* Passlack should play on the wing, and I suspect that's what was meant...Weigl, Dahoud, & Gotze in the middle, Passlack & Dembele on the wings.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

Yeah, thats not gonna be the lineup, especially considering two of those players are injured. 

That was a terrible performance today. WTF is Subotic doing on this team? Sell immediately. Zagadou should not be playing LB, so crazy. Durm as a CM. WTF again. 

A lot of players looked really bad today. Liked Toprak, Bartra and Schmelzer. Besides that, no.

Its preseason and all, but anytime you lose to a fourth division team, it deserves a lot of criticism.


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## TheMoreYouKnow

BergyDGD said:


> I started following FC St. Pauli in Bundesliga 2. Really cool seeing their links within the punk rock scene and the philosophy of the club.




Yeah and how their ultras helped set their own city on fire. Real cool.


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## cgf

If Freiburg bring Kaputska in on a permanent I'm going to love a lot of their young talent. Soyuncu, Kaputska, Kempf, Lienhart, Meffert, Stenzel, Sierro, Haberer, Bulut


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## Pavel Buchnevich

Subotic has to go right away. Dude's awful. Don't waste any more preseason minutes on him. 

Schurrle and Rode shouldn't be far behind him out the door. For me, Mor comes before Schurrle this season. Mor had a good game today.

Was nice to see Goetze back on the field. Looked a little rusty, but you can tell the quality. He was playing some passes that most players don't think to play.


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## Bon Esprit

I'd take Subotic. Hannover 96 needs a CB and he'd be a good fit here.

SchÃ¼rrle needs to go. That is correct. I dislike the player (not the human being) with a passion. I never understood why Dortmund signed Rode tbh.


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## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Subotic has to go right away. Dude's awful. Don't waste any more preseason minutes on him.
> 
> Schurrle and Rode shouldn't be far behind him out the door. For me, Mor comes before Schurrle this season. Mor had a good game today.
> 
> Was nice to see Goetze back on the field. Looked a little rusty, but you can tell the quality. He was playing some passes that most players don't think to play.




Part of the point of preseason is to show off your unwanted players so you can sell them off.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

Deficient Mode said:


> Part of the point of preseason is to show off your unwanted players so you can sell them off.




Agree on Schurrle and Rode, I even saw yesterday that Hamburg had interest in Rode, but playing Subotic is working the opposite way. Any team who might've been interested who watched him probably will now have thought twice about it.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

Paging Evilo, do you read this thread? 

Zagadou is really good, what a terrific signing that was. Not a starter this year, but I can definitely see him developing into a starter in a season or two, and eventually a top class CB. The guy is young, only 18, but he's done well. He wasn't even so bad out of position at LB the other day.


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## Deficient Mode

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Paging Evilo, do you read this thread?
> 
> Zagadou is really good, what a terrific signing that was. Not a starter this year, but I can definitely see him developing into a starter in a season or two, and eventually a top class CB. The guy is young, only 18, but he's done well. He wasn't even so bad out of position at LB the other day.




I'm pretty excited about him. A physical beast already and a pretty skilled footballer as well. He's CB #4 at the moment but if Bosz goes for a 3 or 5 man back line as today he could see a lot of minutes. He's the only left-footed CB on the roster, so he has an advantage in that respect. I doubt Bosz would have any qualms about starting an 18 year old, either.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

Nice performance today. 

Thought Pulisic was excellent, Auba, Bartra and Castro did well, also.


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