# Premier League 2019-20 part II



## Halladay

Continue

Premier League 2019-20


----------



## phisherman

How did Arsenal buy so many players when they only had a measly 45 million pounds?


----------



## robertmac43

phisherman said:


> How did Arsenal buy so many players when they only had a measly 45 million pounds?





That was easily one of the longest twitter threads I have ever read.


----------



## S E P H

phisherman said:


> How did Arsenal buy so many players when they only had a measly 45 million pounds?




Arsenal probably still had 45ish or so million pounds, but those installments is what subsidized the cost. If you take away Pepe then we spent 30-ish million which probably bumps up to 15 or 20 million this window to Lille.


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## phisherman

See link for summary. Very interesting approach to try and get the right loan for their players.

Youngsters On Loan Watch


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## spintheblackcircle




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## Burner Account

spintheblackcircle said:


>




Hilarious


----------



## robertmac43

That cannot be real? Pool unable to catch a break in the league


----------



## Havre

Seen the video. Funny - in a sad way. Even if I want Liverpool to lose I don’t want it to happen due to injuries.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

robertmac43 said:


> Pool unable to catch a break in the league




They've played 1 game.


----------



## John Price

Honestly waht is the issue here? Pulisic is a generational talent. He deserves all the fanfare.


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## robertmac43

spintheblackcircle said:


> They've played 1 game.




I'm talking more in the grand scheme of the premier league . 

But also they have lost a GK each game they have played. Does not sound like catching a break.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Roman Fell said:


> Honestly waht is the issue here? Pulisic is a generational talent. He deserves all the fanfare.





The issue was we don’t need 90 mins on him. Everyone knows who he is. Most people aren’t watching the PL bc of him. 

Nothing against the kid. I root for him to succeed.


----------



## John Price

East Coast Bias said:


> The issue was we don’t need 90 mins on him. Everyone knows who he is. Most people aren’t watching the PL bc of him.
> 
> Nothing against the kid. I root for him to succeed.



It was also his first week in the league so hyping him up like mad is natural. This guy is the face of the uSMNT.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Roman Fell said:


> Honestly waht is the issue here? Pulisic is a generational talent. He deserves all the fanfare.




Generational talent?


----------



## Cassano

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Generational talent?



Generational US talent i think. He should easily be their best ever player.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

He's an American generational talent. Absolutely not a world generational talent. Huge difference. I'd be annoyed too if I were to watch NBC.


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## Duchene2MacKinnon

Cassano said:


> Generational US talent i think. He should easily be their best ever player.



Maybe but still not even close to a generational talent overall.


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## bleedblue1223

I think Pulisic will do very well, but it's already obnoxious with how they are talking him up. We are going to end up with people either going over the top with him to cater to the American audience or the opposite with analysts and pundits trying to counter the hype and they'll tear him down. It's a lose/lose situation.


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## YEM

it was hilarious when they did what was easily a half-hour on him in the pregame and then it was announced that he wasn't in Chelsea's first 11 prior to the UTD game


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## Burner Account

kyle evs48 said:


> Hilarious




lol


----------



## Prntscrn

Seeing that Gomez got hit too I wouldn't be surprised if he's out with his history of injuries


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## Pensionsraddare

Prntscrn said:


> Seeing that Gomez got hit too I wouldn't be surprised if he's out with his history of injuries




Would that even be a loss based on wednesday game?


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## Prntscrn

Pensionsraddare said:


> Would that even be a loss based on wednesday game?




Yes he's our second best CB in my opinion. Shouldn't be played att FB though


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## robertmac43

That fan came in with both sets of studs up, terrible challenge. But in all seriousness what an unfortunate way to get injured and terrible move by the fan.


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## Jussi

spintheblackcircle said:


> They've played 1 game.




Which they barely won 4-1.


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## Pensionsraddare

Prntscrn said:


> Yes he's our second best CB in my opinion. Shouldn't be played att FB though




I know. Was only joking. Not totally convinced about him as a CB though. Overall i must say i find your CB:s a bit overrated. Beside van Dijk i do find it questionable. Gomez, Matip and Lovren are all okey but nothing more. They are not exactly any better than what the other top teams have. Now i expect Live in the now to respond in a short while.


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## East Coast Bias

kyle evs48 said:


> lol





Was that Martin Skrtel?


----------



## Prntscrn

Pensionsraddare said:


> I know. Was only joking. Not totally convinced about him as a CB though. Overall i must say i find your CB:s a bit overrated. Beside van Dijk i do find it questionable. Gomez, Matip and Lovren are all okey but nothing more. They are not exactly any better than what the other top teams have. Now i expect Live in the now to respond in a short while.




Matip and Lovren are pretty average as starting CB but Gomez is a special talent though. Just need to get his injuries in check so he doesn't keep on missing 2/3 of each season


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## Pensionsraddare

Prntscrn said:


> Matip and Lovren are pretty average as starting CB but Gomez is a special talent though. Just need to get his injuries in check so he doesn't keep on missing 2/3 of each season




I agree he´s a talent with a lot of potential that he also showed in periods. But that could also be said about someone like Holding who played very good last season before picking up that injury... I don´t think he will ever be a player to rely on week in week out. It´s not hard to have shorter periods when you play good. It is about being consistent over a longer period. Then you really show how good you are. Even if Gomez do get rid of the injuries i´m not totally convinced about him being a consistent player. But yeah, he has the potential indeed.


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## Gunnersaurus Rex

kyle evs48 said:


> lol




Karma's a bitch...lol...


----------



## The Abusement Park

Pensionsraddare said:


> I agree he´s a talent with a lot of potential that he also showed in periods. But that could also be said about someone like Holding who played very good last season before picking up that injury... I don´t think he will ever be a player to rely on week in week out. It´s not hard to have shorter periods when you play good. It is about being consistent over a longer period. Then you really show how good you are. Even if Gomez do get rid of the injuries i´m not totally convinced about him being a consistent player. But yeah, he has the potential indeed.




...

I mean yeah at RB he probably isn’t a good option long term but at CB he’ll fine.


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## PanniniClaus

Watching Kelly Cates and Wrighty on the preview show. What in the world is Wright wearing?


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## Wee Baby Seamus

I don't love Gomez at RB, but as a CB I think he has a serious top level future. And that's completely okay for Liverpool, because they need CBs and have a kid who's already a top quality RB at the age of 20. The big thing for TAA now is getting better defensively, because IMO he's seriously lacking against the ball right now. He's so good on the ball though, holy smokes.


----------



## gary69

robertmac43 said:


> That fan came in with both sets of studs up, terrible challenge. But in all seriousness what an unfortunate way to get injured and terrible move by the fan.




Probably a closet Everton fan.


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## Jumptheshark

So leagues have barely started and 3 managers in the lower levels have already been sacked


----------



## Savant

The Messiah said:


> Karma's a *****...lol...



Karma for what exactly?


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## Gunnersaurus Rex

Savant said:


> Karma for what exactly?



Cheating off his line on the save


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## OhCaptainMyCaptain

The Messiah said:


> Cheating off his line on the save




Yikes. Hopefully tongue in cheek.


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## Cassano

Even if this may be true, it's quite a shameful thing to say as a manager. Imagine Klopp saying this about Chelsea in 2017.


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## Havre

I haven't seen a video of that statement, but my guess it is a mix of his poor English and rubbish English press.

I usually watch Pochettino's press conferences and I don't even know how many times things have been taken out of context and/or misunderstood (on purpose or not) from those.


----------



## Vasilevskiy

Havre said:


> I haven't seen a video of that statement, but my guess it is a mix of *his poor English* and rubbish English press.
> 
> I usually watch Pochettino's press conferences and I don't even know how many times things have been taken out of context and/or misunderstood (on purpose or not) from those.





4:45
Tommy Shelby's disappointed


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## hatterson

Ouch, he talks about City, Liverpool, Tottenham, and Chelsea being tests but never mentioned United.


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## spintheblackcircle




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## Cassano

hatterson said:


> Ouch, he talks about City, Liverpool, Tottenham, and Chelsea being tests but never mentioned United.




It's because Arsenal finished ahead.


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## hatterson

spintheblackcircle said:


>





I could understand it in the narrow meaning about physical difficulty because Liverpool doesn't have a physical front line like Burnley does. Obviously their front three are miles better than Burnley, but they won't physically beat up a CB like Burnley's attack might. Granted it's still a weird way to phrase defending a team that's absolutely destroyed for for a couple years running.


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## phisherman

Will be interesting to hear what info is disclosed in this interview.


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## YNWA14

I'm just glad that Arsenal didn't get Blanc with this team.


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## Cassano

YNWA14 said:


> I'm just glad that Arsenal didn't get Blanc with this team.



Why doesn't this man have a job?


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## Prntscrn

The boy is made out of glass

Keita “could be out for a while” with latest injury


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## S E P H

Cassano said:


> Why doesn't this man have a job?



I told you lot like years ago, this bloke isn't as good as you think he is.


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## East Coast Bias

S E P H said:


> I told you lot like years ago, this bloke isn't as good as you think he is.




That endorsement doesn’t have the effect on a managers reputation that you think it does


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## spintheblackcircle

Germans, man.


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## Havre

Ah the hair!


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## SJSharks72




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## spintheblackcircle




----------



## Jersey Fresh

Deeney always scores against West Ham too (and is a bitch), so glad he's out for this weekend.


----------



## hatterson

It's a year old, but it's an interesting video:


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## Stray Wasp

hatterson said:


> It's a year old, but it's an interesting video:





Informative, but unfortunate that it repeats Ashley's claim he's stabilised the club's finances, when its debt hasn't reduced since the takeover, despite him sacking 75% of the employees he inherited. That's the damage jobs-for-the-boys inspired relegations causes.

A pity there's no mention that the club's commercial income has flatlined since Ashley took over, and that the only income stream to increase notably is TV income - ie something Ashley has dropped in his lap thanks to the centrally-negotiated broadcasting contracts rather than generates through the acumen of himself or his minions.

Strange, too, that tale about him being a childhood NUFC fan. His former Chief Lickspittle, sorry Executive, claimed in the media that Ashley disliked being labelled a Spurs fan because he'd always supported _Chelsea_. More recently, his Daily Mail 'interview' touted that he'd followed England around the globe, but made no claims about a decades-long affection for Newcastle United.

Mind, the idea of him having friends at all seems rather dubious.


----------



## hatterson

Stray Wasp said:


> Informative, but unfortunate that it repeats Ashley's claim he's stabilised the club's finances, when its debt hasn't reduced since the takeover, despite him sacking 75% of the employees he inherited. That's the damage jobs-for-the-boys inspired relegations causes.
> 
> A pity there's no mention that the club's commercial income has flatlined since Ashley took over, and that the only income stream to increase notably is TV income - ie something Ashley has dropped in his lap thanks to the centrally-negotiated broadcasting contracts rather than generates through the acumen of himself or his minions.
> 
> Strange, too, that tale about him being a childhood NUFC fan. His former Chief Lickspittle, sorry Executive, claimed in the media that Ashley disliked being labelled a Spurs fan because he'd always supported _Chelsea_. More recently, his Daily Mail 'interview' touted that he'd followed England around the globe, but made no claims about a decades-long affection for Newcastle United.
> 
> Mind, the idea of him having friends at all seems rather dubious.




It's funny how you can easily argue that the video was too kind to him and yet it paints him out to be a terrible boss who made money off the backs of abusing workers and has made the club...middling at best.

Just shows how great a person he is 

Tifo's actually done an entire series on it.



Videos on Arsenal, United, City, and Chelsea as well as some other interesting stories from England and across Europe.


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## GeorgeLeafer12

spintheblackcircle said:


> Germans, man.





Teemu Pukki Baby, is 1 000 000 times better.


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## Stray Wasp

hatterson said:


> It's funny how you can easily argue that the video was too kind to him and yet it paints him out to be a terrible boss who made money off the backs of abusing workers and has made the club...middling at best.
> 
> Just shows how great a person he is




Quite. His comments about allegations of sexual harrassment at his shabby sports company were genuinely astonishing. Even more so for the fact he made them to a parliamentary select committee.

However, since the video is fundamentally intended to educate people about Ashley's tenure as the owner of a football club, they've captured the surface of the criticisms while missing the substance.


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## TheMoreYouKnow

Im not sure who’s meant to buy the notion that Ashley was a NUFC fan. Lifelong Home Counties/London man who came of age in the 70s/early 80s when Newcastle werent exactly having their glory years.


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## YNWA14

I kind of figured Leicester, Wolverhampton and West Ham might be able to put pressure on United/Chelsea/Arsenal this year but didn't really realize Palace were doing so well.


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## Havre

On that note.

With Pochettino doing his Moaninho impersonation lately I'm starting to wonder if Spurs are headed for another Jol-situation.

Pochettino seems completely lethargic and uninterested at the moment. Never seen him like this before. Perfect reflection of how Spurs are playing football at the moment.

Too early to say anything with certainty. The mood might be completely different if Spurs beat Arsenal in a couple of days, but I'm going to stick my neck out and predict that Pochettino leaves/gets fired come spring/summer. This is not just a blip any longer. This is a serious issue for Spurs and at the moment Pochettino is in my opinion the one that bears the most responsibility for the situation Spurs are in.

Hopefully this post gets quoted with people laughing at me 6 months from now.


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## bleedblue1223

It's always crazy how weird stats look when using parts of 2 different seasons.


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## robertmac43

If you take out the 4 points Brighton got his year we would be dead last. Reminder of why change was needed come the end of last season.


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## GeorgeLeafer12

Looking at Man Utd current situation. 

How can they score goals (or win matches for that matter) with their current squad??????
United biggest problem; can't score goals. (read: can't create enough quality scoring chances)

Sanchez gone, Martial injured, midfield is a dud even with Paul Pogba in the starting 11, in the wing back's; Shaw is injured (again)
Bissaka is great defensively but complete shadow of itself offensively, what last season for Crystal Palace.

Their next opponent is Southampton @ St.Mary's, looking at their squad vs United squad.

Southampton has more firepower in front, due to the injury of Martial,
Saints midfield is way better, more mobile and stronger what United's, Saint's Wing back's are better,...

Comparing both teams, squads, managers, style, system, current form.
I think @ St.Marys next Saturday, the Saints (at the moment) are the favorites to win this match.


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## SJSharks72

GeorgeLeafer12 said:


> Looking at Man Utd current situation.
> 
> How can they score goals (or win matches for that matter) with their current squad??????
> United biggest problem; can't score goals. (read: can't create enough quality scoring chances)
> 
> Sanchez gone, Martial injured, midfield is a dud even with Paul Pogba in the starting 11, in the wing back's; Shaw is injured (again)
> Bissaka is great defensively but complete shadow of itself offensively, what last season for Crystal Palace.
> 
> Their next opponent is Southampton @ St.Mary's, looking at their squad vs United squad.
> 
> Southampton has more firepower in front, due to the injury of Martial,
> Saints midfield is way better, more mobile and stronger what United's, Saint's Wing back's are better,...
> 
> Comparing both teams, squads, managers, style, system, current form.
> I think @ St.Marys next Saturday, the Saints (at the moment) are the favorites to win this match.



For someone who isn’t a United fan, you spend a lot of time thinking and talking about them.

What’s funnier is that you are wrong about so many things. AWB is fine going forward. Only reason he isn’t considered one of the best RBs in the PL is because he was at Crystal Palace. Only RB I take over him is TAA. Rest are arguable. Southampton barely has anything up front. United have Rashford, James, and Greenwood. All of them are better than anything Southampton has off the top of my head. Am I saying it’s a walk in the park? No. But to say that Southampton are favorites is just laughable.


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## YNWA14

SJSharks39 said:


> For someone who isn’t a United fan, you spend a lot of time thinking and talking about them.
> 
> What’s funnier is that you are wrong about so many things. AWB is fine going forward. Only reason he isn’t considered one of the best RBs in the PL is because he was at Crystal Palace. Only RB I take over him is TAA. Rest are arguable. Southampton barely has anything up front. United have Rashford, James, and Greenwood. All of them are better than anything Southampton has off the top of my head. Am I saying it’s a walk in the park? No. But to say that Southampton are favorites is just laughable.



I would also take at least Cancelo and Pereira over AWB. Reece James and Max Aarons are both pretty great too.


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## SJSharks72

YNWA14 said:


> I would also take at least Cancelo and Pereira over AWB. Reece James and Max Aarons are both pretty great too.



So basically three players that combined have less career PL games played than AWB has this season and a guy who I have on the same level.

Let’s say that you are right though and Cancelo and Pereira are better. That still makes AWB a top 5 RB in the PL at 21.


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## YNWA14

SJSharks39 said:


> So basically three players that combined have less career PL games played than AWB has this season and a guy who I have on the same level.
> 
> Let’s say that you are right though and Cancelo and Pereira are better. That still makes AWB a top 5 RB in the PL at 21.



Yeah I don't have a problem with saying that, or at least that he's arguably a top 5 RB in the PL at 21 (I think there's probably a few on a similar level give or take). He certainly was impressive last season and hasn't looked out of place for United. Taking Cancelo and Pereira over him wasn't meant to be an insult as I rate them both very highly.


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## East Coast Bias

SJSharks39 said:


> For someone who isn’t a United fan, you spend a lot of time thinking and talking about them.




because he's a City fan who is wasting massive amounts of time writing article length shit posts masquerading as analysis.


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## Wee Baby Seamus

YNWA14 said:


> I would also take at least Cancelo and Pereira over AWB. Reece James and Max Aarons are both pretty great too.




I'm high on James as a prospect and I'm very very excited for him to be healthy and playing, but I'm gonna wait for him to play a full EPL season before putting him on a similar level to Wan Bisakka, especially considering how AWB has hit the ground running at United.


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## PansCyans




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## The Abusement Park

koyvoo said:


> View attachment 252013




He also has the worst squad of the 4. They actually need to give him time, because he does seem to have a good long term plan in mind for the team, as well as really trying to change the culture of the club. I mean results obviously matter, but we gotta complete a rebuild at some point and Ole seems to be up for it and get that it needs to happen.


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## GeorgeLeafer12

East Coast Bias said:


> because he's a City fan who is wasting massive amounts of time writing article length **** posts masquerading as analysis.




So what if i'm a City fan. I'm also a football super fan, who follows tons of football and tons of different teams/leagues.
Why should i hate teams just because?. I'd rather face the best possible United, beat them silly, fair and square.
- this so called Manchester United isn't the same Manchester United what once was, that was created by the greatest
football manager ever; sir Alex Ferguson.


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## Duchene2MacKinnon

The Abusement Park said:


> He also has the worst squad of the 4. They actually need to give him time, because he does seem to have a good long term plan in mind for the team, as well as really trying to change the culture of the club. I mean results obviously matter, but we gotta complete a rebuild at some point and Ole seems to be up for it and get that it needs to happen.




All good points but Ole doesn’t look like a good manager thus far.


----------



## hatterson

The Abusement Park said:


> He also has the worst squad of the 4. They actually need to give him time, because he does seem to have a good long term plan in mind for the team, as well as really trying to change the culture of the club. I mean results obviously matter, but we gotta complete a rebuild at some point and Ole seems to be up for it and get that it needs to happen.




I'm not super convinced at his coaching chops. I do like his vision for the team and willingness to commit to youth though.

Signing so far seem good at least in the sense of focusing on players with potential who can grow.


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## Cassano

Ole is not far off. They are a Christian Eriksen away from guaranteed top 4 I think. 

They play extremely well on the counter, but need another piece to unlock parked busses.


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## The Abusement Park

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> All good points but Ole doesn’t look like a good manager thus far.




I said results obviously matter, and I’m still of the opinion he was hired too early. But I think he’s the right guy for the next couple of years because he can get rid of some of the rot inside the club since he’s a well respected former player, and will actually target the right age group of players.


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## East Coast Bias

hatterson said:


> I'm not super convinced at his coaching chops. I do like his vision for the team and willingness to commit to youth though.
> 
> Signing so far seem good at least in the sense of focusing on players with potential who can grow.




Yeah I have my doubts about him and why he was hired.

But I would much rather go with youth, and deal with the struggles than what they were doing - gluing together a roster and trying to slap together a top 4 season for $$$$.

If they play kids mostly and finish 8th - oh well. Rather that than another season of gunning for 4th, finishing 6th with decent players on superstar wages, clearly just collecting a paycheck.


----------



## hatterson

The Abusement Park said:


> I said results obviously matter, and I’m still of the opinion he was hired too early. But I think he’s the right guy for the next couple of years because he can get rid of some of the rot inside the club since he’s a well respected former player, and will actually target the right age group of players.




The last point is the most vital.

With the players they're targeting and bringing up more of the youth (Greenwood so far, gotta figure Chong and Gomes are gonna get a few minutes this year too) even if Ole flames out in a year or two, United will still have players they can build on moving forward instead of being stuck with guys who they either need to eat at a loss or will struggle to sell.


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## Duchene2MacKinnon

The Abusement Park said:


> I said results obviously matter, and I’m still of the opinion he was hired too early. But I think he’s the right guy for the next couple of years because he can get rid of some of the rot inside the club since he’s a well respected former player, and will actually target the right age group of players.



I'm not even talking about results... right now there's not too much to suggest he's a good coach.


----------



## S E P H

Very much looking forward to Group F, but besides that looks like it's going to be a very boring group stage.

It's so disappointing that scrub teams like Lille, Red Star, and Valencia make the CL while the mighty Arsenal are stuck with even more scrub teams from Kosovo, Norway, and Greenland. PL should honestly have the top 6 always make the CL.

Like Sparta Praha won't score more than two goals in their group stage, you telling me they have a better right to be there over us who would actually beat teams like Barca and Inter?


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

S E P H said:


> Very much looking forward to Group F, but besides that looks like it's going to be a very boring group stage.
> 
> It's so disappointing that scrub teams like Lille, Red Star, and Valencia make the CL while the mighty Arsenal are stuck with even more scrub teams from Kosovo, Norway, and Greenland. PL should honestly have the top 6 always make the CL.
> 
> Like Sparta Praha won't score more than two goals in their group stage, you telling me they have a better right to be their over us who would actually beat teams like Barca and Inter?




Yes, because its a competition for UEFA not EPL has beens.and no you wouldn't beat Barca.


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## Live in the Now

Bad post. Slavia Prague were the champions of something and your sorry team didn’t win anything. No right to complain about who made the CL.


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## S E P H

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Yes, because its a competition for UEFA not EPL has beens.and no you wouldn't beat Barca.



We beat you lot with a worse manager and team, true you did beat us on the reverse fixture at Camp Nou. It is what it is though. The top 6 in the EPL has always been good teams, doubting it shows your bias-ness towards English football that you hate.


----------



## Aladyyn

S E P H said:


> Very much looking forward to Group F, but besides that looks like it's going to be a very boring group stage.
> 
> It's so disappointing that scrub teams like Lille, Red Star, and Valencia make the CL while the mighty Arsenal are stuck with even more scrub teams from Kosovo, Norway, and Greenland. PL should honestly have the top 6 always make the CL.
> 
> Like *Sparta Praha* won't score more than two goals in their group stage, you telling me they have a better right to be their over us who would actually beat teams like Barca and Inter?



Who?


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## S E P H

Live in the Now said:


> Bad post. Slavia Prague were the champions of something and your sorry team didn’t win anything. No right to complain about who made the CL.



Finishing fourth in the EPL is more of a successful accomplishment than finishing 1st in the Suisse league or Czechia league or the Croatian league...



Aladyyn said:


> Who?



A team that's not even worth getting correct, obviously.


----------



## YNWA14

S E P H said:


> Very much looking forward to Group F, but besides that looks like it's going to be a very boring group stage.
> 
> It's so disappointing that scrub teams like Lille, Red Star, and Valencia make the CL while the mighty Arsenal are stuck with even more scrub teams from Kosovo, Norway, and Greenland. PL should honestly have the top 6 always make the CL.
> 
> Like Sparta Praha won't score more than two goals in their group stage, you telling me they have a better right to be their over us who would actually beat teams like Barca and Inter?



Scrub teams do a better job of bunkering up and keeping the game close vs. Liverpool than Arsenal did last weekend. Not sure there's a high ground for you there chap.


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## Aladyyn

S E P H said:


> Finishing fourth in the EPL is more of a successful accomplishment than finishing 1st in the Suisse league or Czechia league or the Croatian league...
> 
> 
> A team that's not even worth getting correct, obviously.



Your team lost 4-1 to Chelsea in the EL lmfao shut up


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## S E P H

YNWA14 said:


> Scrub teams do a better job of bunkering up and keeping the game close vs. Liverpool than Arsenal did last weekend. Not sure there's a high ground for you there chap.



So what you're saying is that you appreciate lower teams playing terrible/low energy Mourinhoball?



Aladyyn said:


> Your team lost 4-1 to Chelsea in the EL lmfao shut up



A fluke game in the middle of a wasteland where the game was played like at 22:00 at night and the team showed up like 30 minutes before it started due to traffic. I put that loss more on UEFA's corruption than Arsenal being a BK.

I would hope your club finds your way to our tournament, but I wouldn't be surprised if your GD is in the double digits...negatively.


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## Duchene2MacKinnon

S E P H said:


> We beat you lot with a worse manager and team, true you did beat us on the reverse fixture at Camp Nou. It is what it is though. The top 6 in the EPL has always been good teams, doubting it shows your bias-ness towards English football that you hate.




When did Arsenal beat Barca? 

And no its not bias and I don't hate EPL and I hate their arrogant/ignorant fans. Never said the top 6 weren't good teams.


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## Live in the Now

S E P H said:


> Finishing fourth in the EPL is more of a successful accomplishment than finishing 1st in the Suisse league or Czechia league or the Croatian league...



Your team failed to even finish fourth. I think I speak for everyone when I say nobody wants 5th and 6th place teams that couldn’t win a trophy in the CL.


----------



## Aladyyn

S E P H said:


> So what you're saying is that you appreciate lower teams playing terrible/low energy Mourinhoball?
> 
> 
> A fluke game in the middle of a wasteland where the game was played like at 22:00 at night and the team showed up like 30 minutes before it started due to traffic. I put that loss more on UEFA's corruption than Arsenal being being a BK.
> 
> I would hope your club finds your way to our tournament, but I wouldn't be surprised if your GD is in the double digits...negatively.



Of course, a fluke. I guess finishing 5th in the league was also a fluke? Always some excuse.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

S E P H said:


> Finishing fourth in the EPL is more of a successful accomplishment than finishing 1st in the Suisse league or Czechia league or the Croatian league...




That isnt what the competition is about. If you wanna see your team in competitions they maybe be able to compete and win in theres the Carbou cup and the FA cup. CL is for UEFA not English teams.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Can we keep this Arsenal TV knockoff crap in one thread please?

You guys have derailed every thread on here with these ridiculous posts.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

East Coast Bias said:


> Can we keep this Arsenal TV knockoff crap in one thread please?
> 
> You guys have derailed every thread on here with these ridiculous posts.




It really is tiresome. There competition is tomorrow stay in your lane.


----------



## bluesfan94

I think whomever follows OGS will look fantastic due to the work OGS has done


----------



## bluesfan94

East Coast Bias said:


> Can we keep this Arsenal TV knockoff crap in one thread please?
> 
> You guys have derailed every thread on here with these ridiculous posts.



"You guys" It's like two people


----------



## Cassano




----------



## JeffreyLFC

Cassano said:


>



Maitland-Niles really caught my attention versus Liverpool. He handled Mane/Robertson quite well and was very threatening offensively. He is another great right back.


----------



## Pensionsraddare

Cassano said:


>




Wan-Bissaka has been the only good player so far for United though. Probably says a lot about them.


----------



## bluesfan94

Pensionsraddare said:


> Wan-Bissaka has been the only good player so far for United though. Probably says a lot about them.



That isn't even true


----------



## Cassano

JeffreyLFC said:


> Maitland-Niles really caught my attention versus Liverpool. He handled Mane/Robertson quite well and was very threatening offensively. He is another great right back.



he is a midfielder shoehorned into RB because our first choice ruptured his ACL


----------



## Pensionsraddare

bluesfan94 said:


> That isn't even true




Who else has also been good? I can give you Martial.


----------



## bluesfan94

Cassano said:


> he is a midfielder shoehorned into RB because our first choice ruptured his ACL



I'm curious what happens with AMN when Bellerin is healthy. Like he's earned playing time but where? He's not going to displace one of the top 3. I don't really know where he'd be best in the midfield, but even there, Ceballos and Torreira should be locks and the other depends on the match


----------



## bluesfan94

Pensionsraddare said:


> Who else has also been good? I can give you Martial.



Look at that, you've managed to find another that quickly.


----------



## Cassano

bluesfan94 said:


> I'm curious what happens with AMN when Bellerin is healthy. Like he's earned playing time but where? He's not going to displace one of the top 3. I don't really know where he'd be best in the midfield, but even there, Ceballos and Torreira should be locks and the other depends on the match



Utility man, he can be our James Milner. B2B, CM, LB, RB, he can play any role if asked upon.


----------



## Pensionsraddare

bluesfan94 said:


> Look at that, you've managed to find another that quickly.




He's the only one i could think of beside Wan-Bissaka who has been at least decent. Not great though. So one good player and a decent one. Well, that is one hell of a start to the season isn't it?


----------



## JeffreyLFC

Cassano said:


> he is a midfielder shoehorned into RB because our first choice ruptured his ACL



He should stay at RB because he is better than the first choice with a ruptured ACL.


----------



## East Coast Bias

bluesfan94 said:


> "You guys" It's like two people




There's more than 2. You're unlucky to share a club with them, sorry.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

Pensionsraddare said:


> Who else has also been good? I can give you Martial.



Pogba has been great. Not at his best but definately not bad. James other than the diving has been good. Rashford can be better but he has not been bad.


----------



## Aladyyn

JeffreyLFC said:


> Pogba has been great. Not at his best but definately not bad. James other than the diving has been good. Rashford can be better but he has not been bad.



James doesn't dive


----------



## hatterson

Aladyyn said:


> James doesn't dive




He definitely does.


----------



## Cassano

JeffreyLFC said:


> He should stay at RB because he is better than the first choice with a ruptured ACL.



Bellerin was way better last season


----------



## YNWA14

Cassano said:


> he is a midfielder shoehorned into RB because our first choice ruptured his ACL



More teams should look at quick, creative midfielders and converting them to fullbacks especially with how the game is evolving.


----------



## Cassano

YNWA14 said:


> More teams should look at quick, creative midfielders and converting them to fullbacks especially with how the game is evolving.



Wenger tried it with Ox and got scolded for it.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

Cassano said:


> Bellerin was way better last season



I think Maitland-Niles has deserved the right to keep his spot. I have not watched all Arsenal games but the past few years in the games of Arsenal vs Liverpool, I always see Maitland-Niles threatening and Bellerin dissapointing. Could be coincidence, though.


----------



## Pensionsraddare

JeffreyLFC said:


> Pogba has been great. Not at his best but definately not bad. James other than the diving has been good. Rashford can be better but he has not been bad.




I think Pogba looks uninterested and clearly wants to leave. Playing way below his standards so far. Yeah, James is a pretty interesting player. Didn't expect him to contribute with goals from the start for United, but he has. Still i do feel that he lacks so much overall in his game. In many ways he's still a Championship player taking a lot of dumb decisions out there. Rashford mediocre at best.


----------



## hatterson

James has potential, and has shown some flashes of it, but yea he definitely looks like a Championship player at times. Needs to learn how to properly play with his head instead of just sprinting everywhere.


----------



## S E P H

JeffreyLFC said:


> He should stay at RB because he is better than the first choice with a ruptured ACL.



I think you need to rewatch him Mr. Geoff because Bellerin is night and day the better player and it isn't even close. I love me some Niles, but he simply doesn't have the strengths to consistently play at the wing-back. His strengths lie when players are around him and not on just one side of the pitch where a RB is forced to play in. Bellerin isn't very good on the defensive side, but he blows a lot of RB's out of the water when it comes to generating plays and chances, he's a lite-Marcelo and I say this as not the biggest fan of Bellerin. 

The stats might say AMN is better than Wan-Bissaka, but the eye test clearly tells a different situation.


----------



## SJSharks72

East Coast Bias said:


> Can we keep this Arsenal TV knockoff crap in one thread please?
> 
> You guys have derailed every thread on here with these ridiculous posts.



I’ve just ignored both of them and it tends to work much better.


----------



## SJSharks72

Pensionsraddare said:


> I think Pogba looks uninterested and clearly wants to leave. Playing way below his standards so far. Yeah, James is a pretty interesting player. Didn't expect him to contribute with goals from the start for United, but he has. Still i do feel that he lacks so much overall in his game. In many ways he's still a Championship player taking a lot of dumb decisions out there. Rashford mediocre at best.



Well you’re wrong about Pogba and Rashford. Look an Arsenal fan who has no idea what he’s talking about. You, AB, and Seph form the trifecta of shit talkers.


----------



## Cassano

JeffreyLFC said:


> I think Maitland-Niles has deserved the right to keep his spot. I have not watched all Arsenal games but the past few years in the games of Arsenal vs Liverpool, I always see Maitland-Niles threatening and Bellerin dissapointing. Could be coincidence, though.



Not total coincidence, Bellerin was pretty awful for the past two years until last season where he was holding our defense until it imploded after his injury.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

S E P H said:


> I think you need to rewatch him Mr. Geoff because Bellerin is night and day the better player and it isn't even close. I love me some Niles, but he simply doesn't have the strengths to consistently play at the wing-back. His strengths lie when players are around him and not on just one side of the pitch where a RB is forced to play in. Bellerin isn't very good on the defensive side, but he blows a lot of RB's out of the water when it comes to generating plays and chances, he's a lite-Marcelo and I say this as not the biggest fan of Bellerin.
> 
> The stats might say AMN is better than Wan-Bissaka, but the eye test clearly tells a different situation.



Like I said, I take Arsenal fans word over this subject, Bellerin over Niles. Just my opinion based on the very little view I have on them.


----------



## hatterson

S E P H said:


> I think you need to rewatch him Mr. Geoff because Bellerin is night and day the better player and it isn't even close. I love me some Niles, but he simply doesn't have the strengths to consistently play at the wing-back. His strengths lie when players are around him and not on just one side of the pitch where a RB is forced to play in. Bellerin isn't very good on the defensive side, but he blows a lot of RB's out of the water when it comes to generating plays and chances, he's a lite-Marcelo and I say this as not the biggest fan of Bellerin.
> 
> The stats might say AMN is better than Wan-Bissaka, but the eye test clearly tells a different situation.




Well the stats are based on 3 games so it's literally the case of 1-2 events being made to look like they're more meaningful.


----------



## Chimaera

3 matches is not a large enough data set to compare anything effectively


----------



## Aladyyn

Pensionsraddare said:


> I think Pogba looks uninterested and clearly wants to leave. Playing way below his standards so far. Yeah, James is a pretty interesting player. Didn't expect him to contribute with goals from the start for United, but he has. Still i do feel that he lacks so much overall in his game. In many ways he's still a Championship player taking a lot of dumb decisions out there. Rashford mediocre at best.



Uninterested isn't a word I'd use to describe Pogba so far this season. Frustrated, sure. Overwhelmed, maybe.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> I'm not even talking about results... right now there's not too much to suggest he's a good coach.




I haven’t suggested that he is. I’m just saying there’s some behind the scenes and team building aspects he brings that are incredibly beneficial.


----------



## S E P H

SJSharks39 said:


> Well you’re wrong about Pogba and Rashford. Look an Arsenal fan who has no idea what he’s talking about. You, AB, and Seph form the trifecta of **** talkers.



I'm not a **** talker, I post hot-takes and I admit to that. Doesn't mean I've been wrong many times though.



hatterson said:


> Well the stats are based on 3 games so it's literally the case of 1-2 events being made to look like they're more meaningful.



Yeah like those weird footballs stats where they take a second end of a season and the first end of the current season and make a random point for something that's beyond random? I think Spurs were the last target of this type of incompetence. Doesn't mean that they're not getting overrated thought by other EPL fanbases.


----------



## bluesfan94

S E P H said:


> I'm not a **** talker, I post hot-takes and I admit to that. Doesn't mean I've been wrong many times though.




Hot takes often come off as shit talking because usually your hottakes are talking shit on another side. 


JeffreyLFC said:


> He should stay at RB because he is better than the first choice with a ruptured ACL.




I don't agree with this, but I imagine he'll get a lot of time there working Bellerin back from injury.


East Coast Bias said:


> There's more than 2. You're unlucky to share a club with them, sorry.




I'll grant you 3, but other teams have plenty of crazy posters, too. Arsenal is the only one where everyone decides to fire back and that derails the threads. As I posted elsewhere, countertrolling is remarkably ineffective.


YNWA14 said:


> More teams should look at quick, creative midfielders and converting them to fullbacks especially with how the game is evolving.




Yes and no. Defending is still important, as is the middle of the pitch. It's a balance. On teams that retain possession continually, then yes, that should at least be an option. 


JeffreyLFC said:


> I think Maitland-Niles has deserved the right to keep his spot. I have not watched all Arsenal games but the past few years in the games of Arsenal vs Liverpool, I always see Maitland-Niles threatening and Bellerin dissapointing. Could be coincidence, though.




It is a coincidence and Bellerin has dealt with much shakier centerback pairings, which is telling given how shaky Luiz/Sokratis was against Liverpool.


SJSharks39 said:


> Well you’re wrong about Pogba and Rashford. Look an Arsenal fan who has no idea what he’s talking about. You, AB, and Seph form the trifecta of **** talkers.




And look, we found the three mentioned above. I haven't watched that many United games (I've been on vacation the entire season thus far), but saying they've had one good player seems wrong.


Cassano said:


> Not total coincidence, Bellerin was pretty awful for the past two years until last season where he was holding our defense until it imploded after his injury.




Yeah, Bellerin looks bad in part because he's always forward, but the team couldn't handle that and so his side seemed open. Plus he didn't have anyone to work with on the right side, so that didn't help. Those issues should both be better when he returns, although his play will now be questionable (in the sense that we don't know what to expect, not that it'll be necessarily poor).


----------



## S E P H

bluesfan94 said:


> Hot takes often come off as **** talking because usually your hottakes are talking **** on another side.



I've bashed Arsenal a ton the past two years or so, I've called us irrelevant for large portions during Wenger's last three season including Emery's first.


----------



## SJSharks72

I’m not going to quote your whole post but I’d say that all of their players have had moments of brilliance (except Lingard). The players that have been consistently good are Maguire/Lindelof/AWB/Pogba/Rashford/Martial. The rest aren’t good enough for United (yet) or in DDG’s case have very high expectations. I actually think DDG has been pretty good but relative to his WC potential hasn’t been great.


----------



## YNWA14

Maguire sure didn't look good against CP, IMO.


----------



## The Abusement Park

SJSharks39 said:


> I’m not going to quote your whole post but I’d say that all of their players have had moments of brilliance (except Lingard). The players that have been consistently good are Maguire/Lindelof/AWB/Pogba/Rashford/Martial. The rest aren’t good enough for United (yet) or in DDG’s case have very high expectations. I actually think DDG has been pretty good but relative to his WC potential hasn’t been great.




He’s been good this year bar that second CP goal. Pretty bad from him there.


----------



## SJSharks72

The Abusement Park said:


> He’s been good this year bar that second CP goal. Pretty bad from him there.



I didn’t get to see that game but I did hear that but you can’t write a player off based on one game.


----------



## The Abusement Park

SJSharks39 said:


> I didn’t get to see that game but I did hear that but you can’t write a player off based on one game.




I’m not writing him off, I’m just saying it was a bad goal to let in. Especially for a keeper of his level.


----------



## SJSharks72

The Abusement Park said:


> I’m not writing him off, I’m just saying it was a bad goal to let in. Especially for a keeper of his level.



Ah yes agreed 100% I thought we were talking about Maguire on the first goal. The De Gea mistake though was definitely out of character to say the least.


----------



## hatterson

The De Gea mistake on Palace's second goal felt a little like his mistakes last year. Seemed like he didn't have his mind in the game 100%. Or maybe he just was mentally off since he had already checked out for the game assuming United was gonna keep possession and Palace was gonna completely bus park.

Maguire I don't recall a mistake of his. I wouldn't call Palace's first goal a mistake of his. He was out further wide left because Shaw was hobbled so he had to take control of half the field. The mistake was Lindelof's in stepping up when he had no cover from his partner or AWB.


----------



## Cassano

So wholesome.


----------



## Aladyyn

hatterson said:


> The De Gea mistake on Palace's second goal felt a little like his mistakes last year. Seemed like he didn't have his mind in the game 100%. Or maybe he just was mentally off since he had already checked out for the game assuming United was gonna keep possession and Palace was gonna completely bus park.
> 
> Maguire I don't recall a mistake of his. I wouldn't call Palace's first goal a mistake of his. He was out further wide left because Shaw was hobbled so he had to take control of half the field. The mistake was Lindelof's in stepping up when he had no cover from his partner or AWB.



Losing points because of individual mistakes shouldn't be on Ole, right?


----------



## hatterson

Aladyyn said:


> Losing points because of individual mistakes shouldn't be on Ole, right?




No, but there's enough other things that have been subpar.

He waited about 25 minutes too long to make subs against Wolves and he set up the Palace game like it was going to be an open game as opposed to Palace playing a defensive game and hitting on the counter.


----------



## SJSharks72

Aladyyn said:


> Losing points because of individual mistakes shouldn't be on Ole, right?



I don’t think you can blame the individual mistakes on him but I do think the manager takes a bit of blame no matter what happens (win/lose).


----------



## KJS14

bluesfan94 said:


> I don't agree with this, but I imagine he'll get a lot of time there working Bellerin back from injury.
> 
> It is a coincidence and Bellerin has dealt with much shakier centerback pairings, which is telling given how shaky Luiz/Sokratis was against Liverpool.
> 
> Yeah, Bellerin looks bad in part because he's always forward, but the team couldn't handle that and so his side seemed open. Plus he didn't have anyone to work with on the right side, so that didn't help. Those issues should both be better when he returns, although his play will now be questionable (in the sense that we don't know what to expect, not that it'll be necessarily poor).




I do think that AMN has played RB at a high enough level to challenge Bellerin, but I also think that Bellerin is the better player. Though AMN has looked better at dribbling past defenders 1-on-1 and creating a crossing opportunity for himself. Bellerin looked to have lost some of that ability since he first broke through, maybe due to some confidence issues at times over the last 2 seasons.

Hopefully the competition will be good for them both.


----------



## S E P H

Cassano said:


> So wholesome.




Ronaldo smacked around Messi there, not only was he pretty much lying about their friendship, but Messi isn't bilingual so Ronaldo could've said anything there and Leo would have no idea what he was saying.


----------



## Cassano




----------



## Live in the Now

Cassano said:


>





Woodward is going to kill their club. Even after everything that happened leading to Ole, he still didn't lose his job and seemed to grow in power.


----------



## Michigan

11:30 AM ET 9/22 on NBCSN: Chelsea @ Liverpool will be a tough match for the Blues.


----------



## Jussi




----------



## Jussi

hatterson said:


> No, but there's enough other things that have been subpar.
> 
> He waited about 25 minutes too long to make subs against Wolves and he set up the Palace game like it was going to be an open game as opposed to Palace playing a defensive game and hitting on the counter.




I think a mistake was made in starting Lingard over Mata who would have been better at this type of a game.


Pogba out of the Euro qualifiers with an ankle injury.


----------



## SJSharks72

Jussi said:


> I think a mistake was made in starting Lingard over Mata who would have been better at this type of a game.
> 
> 
> Pogba out of the Euro qualifiers with an ankle injury.



Ole said it wasn’t bad so it’s probably more precautionary than necessary.


----------



## These Are The Days

SJSharks39 said:


> Ole said it wasn’t bad so it’s probably more precautionary than necessary.




I hope the Reds still have their legs under them for that one. They're gonna be playing A LOT of football in short order. Any slip up and City is going to take 1st place.


----------



## YNWA14

Since I can't post in the gameweek topic I thought this was interesting:

https://imgur.com/a/bX8xMfq






Xhaka low key carrying Arsenal.


----------



## YNWA14

AlwaysSunnyInTampa said:


> I hope the Reds still have their legs under them for that one. They're gonna be playing A LOT of football in short order. Any slip up and City is going to take 1st place.



City is inevitable.


----------



## bluesfan94

YNWA14 said:


> Since I can't post in the gameweek topic I thought this was interesting:
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/bX8xMfq
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xhaka low key carrying Arsenal.



Guendouzi more than Xhaka. Xhaka has the most passes because of his position, not his talent.


----------



## YNWA14

bluesfan94 said:


> Guendouzi more than Xhaka. Xhaka has the most passes because of his position, not his talent.



xG chain was more what I was referring to as well, but yeah.


----------



## Jussi

AWB also withdrew from the national team due to a back issue.


----------



## bluesfan94

Jussi said:


> AWB also withdrew from the national team due to a back issue.



I believe this belongs in the National Teams thread.
World Cup: - National Team threads


----------



## Jussi

bluesfan94 said:


> I believe this belongs in the National Teams thread.
> World Cup: - National Team threads




It's related to United physioroom potentially piling up...


----------



## Ivan13

Guendouzi is so freaking terrible it boggles the mind he is starting for Arsenal. Everyone is losing their mind about the Xhaka penalty (moronic play nonetheless), but it happened in first place because mop top decided to lacsidasically clear the ball instead of resolutely belting it away from danger. It looks like there is no urgency to his game, and most of his passes leave you wondering wtf is he thinking.


----------



## YNWA14

de Bruyne seems obvious. Was a bit surprised to see Mane in there with others. Mahrez should be a starter but plays for City.


----------



## bluesfan94

Ivan13 said:


> Guendouzi is so freaking terrible it boggles the mind he is starting for Arsenal. Everyone is losing their mind about the Xhaka penalty (moronic play nonetheless), but it happened in first place because mop top decided to lacsidasically clear the ball instead of resolutely belting it away from danger. It looks like there is no urgency to his game, and most of his passes leave you wondering wtf is he thinking.



Apparently having the number 13 in your username makes you incapable of seeing Guendouzi's talent


----------



## East Coast Bias

Xhaka is the Swiss Jonjo Shelvey


----------



## booyakasha

Ivan13 said:


> Guendouzi is so freaking terrible it boggles the mind he is starting for Arsenal. Everyone is losing their mind about the Xhaka penalty (moronic play nonetheless), but it happened in first place because mop top decided to lacsidasically clear the ball instead of resolutely belting it away from danger. It looks like there is no urgency to his game, and most of his passes leave you wondering wtf is he thinking.



He has his flaws and defensively not very good, but for 20 he shows flashes of brilliance at times, and will definately improve.
the pass he gave to Auba for Arsenals 2nd goal was sublime. The vision and the audacity to attempt was encouraging.


----------



## Ivan13

bluesfan94 said:


> Apparently having the number 13 in your username makes you incapable of seeing Guendouzi's talent



Sure. Nice rebuttal.


----------



## booyakasha

East Coast Bias said:


> Xhaka is the Swiss Jonjo Shelvey



xhaka is in a class of his own.


----------



## YNWA14

Finally:

Van Dijk names greatest team-mate and atmosphere, Man City ace is toughest opponent

He answered a bunch of questions but I thought this one was cool. That makes both Klopp and van Dijk who think Firmino is the best among the front 3 (or at least Klopp has implied it):



> Most intriguingly, when asked about the greatest player he has played with, he replied: "I’m going to be a little bit biased and say one of my team-mates; I would say Roberto Firmino."


----------



## AB13

YNWA14 said:


> Since I can't post in the gameweek topic I thought this was interesting:
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/bX8xMfq
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xhaka low key carrying Arsenal.




Amount of passes is completely irrelevant and only has to do with how much of the ball you have. Not every succesfull pass does anything good, quite the contrary.


----------



## AB13

Ivan13 said:


> Guendouzi is so freaking terrible it boggles the mind he is starting for Arsenal. Everyone is losing their mind about the Xhaka penalty (moronic play nonetheless), but it happened in first place because mop top decided to lacsidasically clear the ball instead of resolutely belting it away from danger. It looks like there is no urgency to his game, and most of his passes leave you wondering wtf is he thinking.




Usually this has been the case, he was great as a box to box agiant Sp*rs but he is compeletely useless as a DM. He has actually shown some promise but he really should not be a starter for us.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Imagine using an asterisk in Spurs and asking to be taken seriously.


----------



## robertmac43

Really interesting listen on Spurs right here: Especially the contract talks at 21ish minutes


----------



## YNWA14




----------



## Burner Account

Judas Milner


----------



## S E P H

bluesfan94 said:


> Guendouzi more than Xhaka. Xhaka has the most passes because of his position, not his talent.



Yet he plays the match like he's some sort of BXB Aaron Ramsey...



Ivan13 said:


> Guendouzi is so freaking terrible it boggles the mind he is starting for Arsenal.



You must be joking?


----------



## KJS14

YNWA14 said:


> Since I can't post in the gameweek topic I thought this was interesting:
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/bX8xMfq
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xhaka low key carrying Arsenal.




Not surprising, because Xhaka played quite a few amazing passes in the game. Its actually amazing how he could probably be the best passer on 95% of teams in the world, but outside of that his football IQ drops to semi-pro level when he's defending or pressured on the ball.


----------



## The Abusement Park

KJS14 said:


> Not surprising, because Xhaka played quite a few amazing passes in the game. Its actually amazing how he could probably be the best passer on 95% of teams in the world, but outside of that his football IQ drops to semi-pro level when he's defending or pressured on the ball.




Xhaka's ability to shoot from distance and pick out a pass are honestly really really good. It's just that he's literally useless at every other aspect of the game.


----------



## PansCyans




----------



## robertmac43

The Abusement Park said:


> Xhaka's ability to shoot from distance and pick out a pass are honestly really really good. It's just that he's literally useless at every other aspect of the game.




If he could just control the aggressive tackling he would be great. He is such a great facilitator of the game! He strikes the ball so clean on such a consistent basis.


----------



## PansCyans




----------



## Blender

koyvoo said:


> View attachment 253041



I think this would be more interesting if it only included players who have made appearances this season. Teams that carry older guys that sit on the bench and don't play, or a bunch of younger guys that sit on the bench and don't play, can really skew the results without reflecting the actual makeup of their typical squad.


----------



## hatterson

koyvoo said:


> View attachment 253041




I'd be interested to see minutes weighted average age of squads


----------



## booyakasha

KJS14 said:


> Not surprising, because Xhaka played quite a few amazing passes in the game. Its actually amazing how he could probably be the best passer on 95% of teams in the world, but outside of that his football IQ drops to semi-pro level when he's defending or pressured on the ball.



oh captain, my captain.


throw your strikers under the bus.
it's no wonder that Arsenals fall from the top 4 coincides with the purchase of this goof.


----------



## bleedblue1223

hatterson said:


> I'd be interested to see minutes weighted average age of squads



Yeah, Chelsea for example have 9 players with 200+ minutes that are 25 or under, that's out of 11 players. Add in Loftus-Cheek and Hudson-Odoi once they get healthy.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

Blender said:


> I think this would be more interesting if it only included players who have made appearances this season. Teams that carry older guys that sit on the bench and don't play, or a bunch of younger guys that sit on the bench and don't play, can really skew the results without reflecting the actual makeup of their typical squad.



Yes.. I would rather see a starting eleven average age stats.


----------



## hatterson

Blender said:


> I think this would be more interesting if it only included players who have made appearances this season. Teams that carry older guys that sit on the bench and don't play, or a bunch of younger guys that sit on the bench and don't play, can really skew the results without reflecting the actual makeup of their typical squad.





bleedblue1223 said:


> Yeah, Chelsea for example have 9 players with 200+ minutes that are 25 or under, that's out of 11 players. Add in Loftus-Cheek and Hudson-Odoi once they get healthy.





JeffreyLFC said:


> Yes.. I would rather see a starting eleven average age stats.




I scraped some data from whoscored and dumped it in excel.

Calculations are:
Minutes Weighted Average Age: SUM( Age * Percentage of overall minutes played ) for all players
Average Starting XI age: SUM( Age * Percentage of starting appearances) for all players. Doesn't account for how long they played in the game or if they were subbed off
Average Sub age (unweighted): SUM( Age * Percentage of sub appearances made) for all players. Doesn't account for how long they were on (ie, subbed on due to injury at 10' is the same as subbed on at 95')


TeamMinutes Weighted Average AgeAverage Starting XI AgeAverage Sub Age (Unweighted)ManchesterUnited24.424.324.7Norwich24.624.627.4Southampton24.724.725.5Chelsea24.824.726.8Bournemouth2525.124.2Everton25.525.623.1AstonVilla25.725.725.9Newcastle25.825.726.1Leicester25.925.926.4Arsenal26.12624.7Wolves26.226.322.9Sheffield26.626.627.6Liverpool26.726.728.1ManchesterCity26.926.827Tottenham26.926.923.5WestHam26.926.829Brighton27.127.126.7Burnley27.927.830.4CrystalPalace28.928.827.4Watford29.229.225.2
[TBODY]
[/TBODY]


----------



## robertmac43

Trossard picked up an injury and will likely be out for 3ish weeks. Big hit for Brighton.


----------



## Blender

Emerson has been tremendous to start the season so far.


----------



## les Habs

Quite entertaining. Keane can spin a good yarn.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Watford sack Javi Gracia. Unsurprising, given their rough start to the season and their record of trigger-happiness with managers, but I think they're really gonna regret this one.


----------



## Cassano

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Watford sack Javi Gracia. Unsurprising, given their rough start to the season and their record of trigger-happiness with managers, but I think they're really gonna regret this one.



Yup, some of their top players will probably leave too. Utd should be all over Doucoure.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Cassano said:


> Yup, some of their top players will probably leave too. Utd should be all over Doucoure.




Troy Deeney was interviewed in Sky yesterday saying he had faith in Gracia to pull them out of the rough start and that he didn't think he'd get the sack, and now today this happens. I wouldn't be surprised if there ends up being a lot of discontent in the locker room over this, and chaos ensues and spirals.

If things really get unsettled, I could see some exoduses. More than just United should be all over Doucoure - I think he'd be an upgrade in the midfield for pretty much everyone except for City, Liverpool, and Chelsea. If United don't have the good sense to go for him, Everton would be a great fit. Deulofeu and Hughes would also be smart pickups for a lot of sides. There's a lot of talent in that squad - I think they would've recovered just fine if they had kept Gracia, but I'm not sure right now.

Timing is also weird, IMO. Their next five fixtures are really tough - Arsenal, City, Wolves, Sheffield, and Spurs. Seems like a bad time to give the sack and introduce some instability.


----------



## S E P H

I had such high hopes for Watford, they were building something great along with Wolves, but it seems they're falling to become Everton/Soton 2.0 than taking the next step. Don't think Garcia deserved to be fired though, but I also understand the move.

Also it is a complete pain that Expressions is a Spurs fan, the lad is hilarious AF.


----------



## Savant

Virgil Van Dijk contract extension

£246k a week until 2025


----------



## Live in the Now

Legend status incoming.


----------



## hatterson

Tbh that’s not a bad salary given how much he means to team success.


----------



## robertmac43

I would easily pay VVD that much. He is worth every penny.


----------



## Cassano

What will happen to these free agents:

*Man U:*
David de Gea
Eric Bailly
Timothy Fosu-Mensah
Nemanja Matic

*Chelsea:*
Willian
Pedro
Olivier Giroud
Calum Hudson-Odoi

*LFC:*
James Milner
Adam Lallana

*Tottenham:*
Christian Eriksen
Jan Vertonghen
Toby Alderwiereld


----------



## Live in the Now

Milner will sign for two more seasons or play for Leeds.

Lallana will simply leave and play for a team that hung on to being in the PL.


----------



## S E P H

I think some of those get re-signed such as Pedro, only ones I would be worried about is de Gea (if United don't make the CL) and Eriksen who's mentioned the ideal of wanting to join a new team.



Savant said:


> Virgil Van Dijk contract extension
> 
> £246k a week until 2025



Who the hell is his agent? Effin' Ozil is making 350K to show up to practice and sit in the VIP section. I mean come on, if I was a player as good as him...I would demand 350K as a starting point.


----------



## Live in the Now

S E P H said:


> Who the hell is his agent? Effin' Ozil is making 350K to show up to practice and sit in the VIP section. I mean come on, if I was a player as good as him...I would demand 350K as a starting point.




The club has a wage structure and he said he wanted to be a legend at Liverpool. Some players aren't so greedy.


----------



## S E P H

Live in the Now said:


> The club has a wage structure and he said he wanted to be a legend at Liverpool. Some players aren't so greedy.



Yeah no doubt about that, you lot got a good one that's for sure. I just don't understand how he can't be a legend, but also get what he's worth. I am not saying to make him one of the highest players in the world at 400K or anything higher than that, but the agent effed up because I know you Reds would've loved him at 350K too, no?


----------



## SJSharks72

Cassano said:


> What will happen to these free agents:
> 
> *Man U:*
> David de Gea
> Eric Bailly
> Timothy Fosu-Mensah
> Nemanja Matic
> 
> *Chelsea:*
> Willian
> Pedro
> Olivier Giroud
> Calum Hudson-Odoi
> 
> *LFC:*
> James Milner
> Adam Lallana
> 
> *Tottenham:*
> Christian Eriksen
> Jan Vertonghen
> Toby Alderwiereld



All will resign except maybe Matic, Giroud, Lallana, and very unlikely but possible Alderweireld.


----------



## Live in the Now

S E P H said:


> Yeah no doubt about that, you lot got a good one that's for sure. I just don't understand how he can't be a legend, but also get what he's worth. I am not saying to make him one of the highest players in the world at 400K or anything higher than that, but the agent effed up because I know you Reds would've loved him at 350K too, no?




We don't have the money to do that. I would of course pay him anything, but the club doesn't want to go into debt and doesn't have oil money to pay players with.


----------



## hatterson

Cassano said:


> What will happen to these free agents:
> 
> *Man U:*
> David de Gea
> Eric Bailly
> Timothy Fosu-Mensah
> Nemanja Matic
> 
> *Chelsea:*
> Willian
> Pedro
> Olivier Giroud
> Calum Hudson-Odoi
> 
> *LFC:*
> James Milner
> Adam Lallana
> 
> *Tottenham:*
> Christian Eriksen
> Jan Vertonghen
> Toby Alderwiereld




I thought I heard over the summer that Hudson-Odoi agreed to a new deal.


----------



## Prntscrn




----------



## Jersey Fresh

Did you get this news from a non-James Pearce/Melissa Reddy source, Savant? Tsk tsk.


----------



## Blender

Cassano said:


> What will happen to these free agents:
> 
> *Man U:*
> David de Gea
> Eric Bailly
> Timothy Fosu-Mensah
> Nemanja Matic
> 
> *Chelsea:*
> Willian
> Pedro
> Olivier Giroud
> Calum Hudson-Odoi
> 
> *LFC:*
> James Milner
> Adam Lallana
> 
> *Tottenham:*
> Christian Eriksen
> Jan Vertonghen
> Toby Alderwiereld



Callum Hudson-Odoi signed a 5 year deal this summer.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Cassano said:


> What will happen to these free agents:
> 
> *Man U:*
> David de Gea
> Eric Bailly
> Timothy Fosu-Mensah
> Nemanja Matic
> 
> *Chelsea:*
> Willian
> Pedro
> Olivier Giroud
> Calum Hudson-Odoi
> 
> *LFC:*
> James Milner
> Adam Lallana
> 
> *Tottenham:*
> Christian Eriksen
> Jan Vertonghen
> Toby Alderwiereld




de Gea and Bailly will almost definitely both re-up with United, but I could see Matic leaving on a free. Fosu-Mensah will sign a new contract too, I'd figure. 

All the Chelsea guys will re-sign, with the potential exception of Giroud, but what's more likely if he's to leave is that he'll sign an extension and then be sold. 

Lallana will go to Bournemouth, you heard it here first. 

Tottenham could conceivably lose all three on frees, which would be devastating.


----------



## Cassano

Blender said:


> Callum Hudson-Odoi signed a 5 year deal this summer.



Transfrnarket still has him as free agent on June, so I wasn't sure.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Papers reported that CHO was re-signing, but I'm pretty sure the club hasn't confirmed it, and it's been over a month since.


----------



## SJSharks72

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> de Gea and Bailly will almost definitely both re-up with United, but I could see Matic leaving on a free. Fosu-Mensah will sign a new contract too, I'd figure.
> 
> All the Chelsea guys will re-sign, with the potential exception of Giroud, but what's more likely if he's to leave is that he'll sign an extension and then be sold.
> 
> Lallana will go to Bournemouth, you heard it here first.
> 
> Tottenham could conceivably lose all three on frees, which would be devastating.



There was a quote that Giroud said about wanting to go to the MLS. I could see it but at the same time I could see him not doing well there because he’s more of a support striker and needs good wings around him.


----------



## YNWA14

https://global.espn.com/football/tottenham-hotspur/story/3937816/kane-ive-never-dived-in-my-career



> When asked if he has ever dived, Kane said: "Never and, hopefully, I don't have to. I said after the Arsenal game it's a 50/50 one, similar to the one we got given against us at Wembley the year before. It happens in football.
> 
> "I am someone who uses his body well, which as a striker you have to do at every level. On the halfway line it's a free kick every day of the week. In the penalty box you don't always get it.


----------



## hatterson

The idea he's "never" dived is obviously absurd, although I wouldn't call that play against Arsenal a dive.

It's Kane intentionally putting his body in a position to draw contact and making sure he's in a position to go down from it. His goal is absolutely not to try to score, it's to draw a penalty, which is why I was glad it wasn't given.

He is right though that the call is almost always made outside the box, especially if it's a defender doing it. Think how many times you've seen a defender rush into his corner with an attacker pressing him tight. Almost without fail, the defender will stop running, back up a tad, and then fall over when the attacker touches his back. And almost without fail, a foul will be blown.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Quite a non-story. Who is stupid enough to admit if they were a diver?


----------



## AB13

Harry Kane wins 5 free kicks every game from unsportsmanlike dives, he is one of the biggest divers in football history ( although Son and Salah are worse) but the English media is afraid to call him out because they don't want to tarnish the image of their number one darling.


----------



## Savant

Jersey Fresh said:


> Did you get this news from a non-James Pearce/Melissa Reddy source, Savant? Tsk tsk.



Oh I blew it and will admit it. I broke my own rule. No mirror unless Maddock


----------



## mondo13

what club is cool to follow that's not one of the big six


----------



## hatterson

mondo13 said:


> what club is cool to follow that's not one of the big six




Oxford United.


----------



## YNWA14

mondo13 said:


> what club is cool to follow that's not one of the big six



Just find a team with a really good young player you like, or a team that plays well.

I suggest Leicester.


----------



## hatterson

Seriously though, I'd suggest Wolves.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Anyone have a go to site for advanced stats in the PL?

Looking through xG, xGA and other team stats from the link below. Wanted to double check a few things against other sources.

EPL xG Table and Scorers for the 2019/2020 season | Understat.com


----------



## YNWA14

East Coast Bias said:


> Anyone have a go to site for advanced stats in the PL?
> 
> Looking through xG, xGA and other team stats from the link below. Wanted to double check a few things against other sources.
> 
> EPL xG Table and Scorers for the 2019/2020 season | Understat.com



I think understat is the main one people use.


----------



## Savant

mondo13 said:


> what club is cool to follow that's not one of the big six



Honestly, you should pick a team based in London (Palace, West Ham, etc) because that is the only place in England that you would want to take a vacation too (if you ever want to see your team live)


----------



## Blender

mondo13 said:


> what club is cool to follow that's not one of the big six



I'd suggest Leicester City.


----------



## robertmac43

mondo13 said:


> what club is cool to follow that's not one of the big six




Brighton and Hove Albion. Great city, great stadium, attractive football, and some good young players.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## YNWA14

Creed Bratton said:


> Papers reported that CHO was re-signing, but I'm pretty sure the club hasn't confirmed it, and it's been over a month since.



This is what I just read:


> Chelsea manager Frank Lampard has, however, recently said that there was no update over Hudson-Odoi's contract situation as he discussed when the teenager could return to action.
> 
> "No update at all. I've laid my cards on the table about it a while ago and it's between him and the club at the minute," he said.



Just based on an article because Rhian Brewster jokingly told him to sign for Liverpool on Instagram (or twitter?)


----------



## hatterson

Losing him for a free would suck for them.


----------



## Chimaera

Liverpool should be all about getting players on a free. Eriksen, Hudson-Odoi, you name it.


----------



## Chimaera

As for which club to support, Leicester do have some young entertaining talents that would be enjoyable to support, though you have to deal with Vardy and Rodgers who are both entirely annoying. 

I would suggest Wolves, as a shout, they have some really good players plus Nuno Santo is a different guy. 

I wouldn't wish rooting for West Ham on my worst enemy. 

Supporting Everton used to be somewhat trendy for Americans (they've had a few in the past) and they're a team you might have a chance to see them beat a top 6 side with), though as a Liverpool supporter I can't honestly support you rooting for them. 

Supporting Crystal Palace wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, though I can't rightfully support someone lending their fandom to Uncle 'Woy. 

I guess outside the top 6 you might be able to support United or Chelsea this season.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Hudson-Odoi hasn't signed yet, but he will. He's not leaving.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Recent number I saw was 180k a week for Hudson-Odoi.

Chelsea transfers: Fenerbahce unlikely to sign Blues winger Victor Moses on permanent basis | Goal.com


----------



## robertmac43

Chimaera said:


> Supporting Crystal Palace wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, though I can't rightfully support someone lending their fandom to Uncle 'Woy.




I wouldn't go near it, they could very well end up in the Championship after this season.


----------



## phisherman

The poster should just watch a bunch of games and in the end he/she will develop feelings towards a certain club.


----------



## YNWA14

robertmac43 said:


> I wouldn't go near it, they could very well end up in the Championship after this season.



Not likely given they've been one of the best teams in the league since the start of 2019.


----------



## YNWA14

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Hudson-Odoi hasn't signed yet, but he will. He's not leaving.



You never know. Kind of weird that he hasn't signed yet especially given the money they've offered for such a relatively unproven player.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Reports coming out now saying Lo celso is out until October damn.


----------



## bluesfan94

hatterson said:


> Oxford United.



My lower league side


----------



## Cassano

mondo13 said:


> what club is cool to follow that's not one of the big six



Leeds. Great style of play and they'll be in the Prem next season.

Only drawback is being known as a Leeds supporter


----------



## robertmac43

YNWA14 said:


> Not likely given they've been one of the best teams in the league since the start of 2019.




I'm admittedly biased against them. Don't even know If want them to go down though as they gave Brighton 6 points last year in the double derby win.


----------



## robertmac43

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Reports coming out now saying Lo celso is out until October damn.




Eriksen staying may prove to be huge for Spurs in the early going here


----------



## GeorgeLeafer12

If anyone cares:

Teemu Pukki since joining Norwich side, in 61 matches, 42 goals, 13 assists (International matches included).
- 29 goals in the Championship, 7 goals in international matches, 5 goals in the Premier League, 1 in the league cup 
- 10 assists in the Championship, 2 assists in international matches, 1 in the premier league


----------



## Stray Wasp

mondo13 said:


> what club is cool to follow that's not one of the big six




I'm another subscriber to the 'watch all the teams and your club will choose you' philosophy.


----------



## Live in the Now

Alisson is back in training.


----------



## robertmac43

Live in the Now said:


> Alisson is back in training.




How many weeks was he originally expected to miss?


----------



## JeffreyLFC

robertmac43 said:


> How many weeks was he originally expected to miss?



6 to 8 weeks


----------



## hatterson

JeffreyLFC said:


> 6 to 8 weeks




Seems about on schedule then, it’s been 5 weeks, right?


----------



## JeffreyLFC

hatterson said:


> Seems about on schedule then, it’s been 5 weeks, right?



He was injured on august 9. So he is close to the expected recovery.


----------



## YNWA14

Salah voted player of the month for Liverpool. Just silly. His following is cult like.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

YNWA14 said:


> Salah voted player of the month for Liverpool. Just silly. His following is cult like.



I don't mind that.


----------



## mondo13

thanks for the responses guys.

i'll take the "watch games to find your team approach".


----------



## bleedblue1223

mondo13 said:


> thanks for the responses guys.
> 
> i'll take the "watch games to find your team approach".



I think you'll eventually find a player that you like watching, that's how I picked my team.


----------



## hatterson

JeffreyLFC said:


> I don't mind that.




He hasn’t been bad or anything, but there’s only one choice for POTM for them right now and it’s Firmino.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

hatterson said:


> He hasn’t been bad or anything, but there’s only one choice for POTM for them right now and it’s Firmino.



Agreed but it does not mater at all in the grand scheme.


----------



## Burner Account

hatterson said:


> He hasn’t been bad or anything, but there’s only one choice for POTM for them right now and it’s Firmino.



Firmino is on his own planet at the moment. Salah has been the third best of the front three IMO.


----------



## PansCyans

Arsenal’s Dani Ceballos says he’s never seen a team that plays better than Klopp’s Liverpool. 

https://www.fotmob.com/news/world/1wiw2sz5s7etr1nwcmxqccstjm-Ceballos:-I've-never-seen-anything-like-Liverpool


----------



## SJSharks72

koyvoo said:


> Arsenal’s Dani Ceballos says he’s never seen a team that plays better than Klopp’s Liverpool.
> 
> https://www.fotmob.com/news/world/1wiw2sz5s7etr1nwcmxqccstjm-Ceballos:-I've-never-seen-anything-like-Liverpool



I mean sounds about right. They are the personification (teamification?) of sum is greater than the parts. Klopp built the team right by buying specific players/player types rather than individuals.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

SJSharks39 said:


> I mean sounds about right. They are the personification (teamification?) of sum is greater than the parts. Klopp built the team right by buying specific players/player types rather than individuals.



If by right you mean he’s always been an idiot than yeah agreed


----------



## FlamerForLife

Laporte out 5-6 months per Pep


----------



## hatterson

FlamerForLife said:


> Laporte out 5-6 months per Pep




That's actually pretty significant for them.

Stones and Otamendi are their only natural CBs so they'd be stuck throwing someone like Fernandinho or one of the FBs in there for rotation or if there's another injury,


----------



## Jersey Fresh

hatterson said:


> That's actually pretty significant for them.
> 
> Stones and Otamendi are their only natural CBs so they'd be stuck throwing someone like Fernandinho or one of the FBs in there for rotation or if there's another injury,



At least until January.


----------



## Live in the Now

Lacazette is injured as well. Left ankle. Return sometime in October.


----------



## YNWA14

Liverpool's 5 point lead after 5 matches is the largest in PL history. If only that had any meaning.


----------



## Havre

Will Liverpool go for the hattrick? Leading by New Year for then not to win? 

Early days, but surprised by how average City and Spurs have looked. Didn't think Liverpool were especially good the first couple of games either, but they got away with the points. If that team stays healthy I don't see anyone catching them. A bit ridiculous to say this early on, but when healthy they have been consistent enough for a long enough time to warrant that statement.

And very little would please me more than City struggling. Spurs finally looked like a team again on Saturday so if they can continue playing like that I could see Spurs overtaking City. Not likely, but not impossible. Pochettino looks like his old self again all of a sudden and after that team meeting the whole team finally tried to play football with some enthusiasm. When that happens Spurs are quite OK.


----------



## Jussi

De Gea signs extension until 2023. Duncan Castles mentioned about this on Friday so maybe that explains why De Gea looked like his old self vs Leicester.


----------



## hatterson

Jussi said:


> De Gea signs extension until 2023.




Some reports saying it's 250k/week before tax, some say it's 250k/week after tax.

Either way, it sounds like United have agree to waive the "25% wage reduction if not in the CL" clause for him


----------



## East Coast Bias

Just took a look at the advanced stats 5 weeks into the season (obviously awaiting West Ham/Villa)

Top 5 in xG 

City (14.17) , Liverpool (10.68), Chelsea (9.59) , United (8.76), Watford (8.08). West Ham is 6th (7.87), so expect them to jump into the top 5 after today. 

Top 5 in xGA

United (3.31), Leicester (4.35), Liverpool (4.88), City (5.77), Sheffield (6.17)

5 worst in xGA (or the bet the over section)

Bournemouth (10.12), Norwich (9.60), Arsenal (9.35), West Ham (9.05), Newcastle (8.53)

Nothing too surprising to me. I think United's metrics are positive but a bit of an outlier. They've played generally in control most games, and haven't allowed many chances at all. But I think their squad lacks the talent to close the gap on these expected numbers - I imagine by season's end they'll have a much higher xG than actual goals, and their xpoints will be much higher than their actual points.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Chelsea in 3rd for xG is unsurprising and positive, and I'm glad we're not in the bottom 5 for xGA.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Chelsea in 3rd for xG is unsurprising and positive, and I'm glad we're not in the bottom 5 for xGA.



Yeah, the offensive talent is there, and to think, we don't even have Hudson-Odoi or RLC in there yet.


----------



## Blender

bleedblue1223 said:


> Yeah, the offensive talent is there, and to think, we don't even have Hudson-Odoi or RLC in there yet.



Missing Kante as well, who while a defensive player generates a ton of counterattacks himself.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Blender said:


> Missing Kante as well, who while a defensive player generates a ton of counterattacks himself.



True, I didn't include him since he has play in a couple of the games.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## YNWA14

East Coast Bias said:


> Just took a look at the advanced stats 5 weeks into the season (obviously awaiting West Ham/Villa)
> 
> Top 5 in xG
> 
> City (14.17) , Liverpool (10.68), Chelsea (9.59) , United (8.76), Watford (8.08). West Ham is 6th (7.87), so expect them to jump into the top 5 after today.
> 
> Top 5 in xGA
> 
> United (3.31), Leicester (4.35), Liverpool (4.88), City (5.77), Sheffield (6.17)
> 
> 5 worst in xGA (or the bet the over section)
> 
> Bournemouth (10.12), Norwich (9.60), Arsenal (9.35), West Ham (9.05), Newcastle (8.53)
> 
> Nothing too surprising to me. I think United's metrics are positive but a bit of an outlier. They've played generally in control most games, and haven't allowed many chances at all. But I think their squad lacks the talent to close the gap on these expected numbers - I imagine by season's end they'll have a much higher xG than actual goals, and their xpoints will be much higher than their actual points.



Woof Arsenal.

I think West Ham will get a little more solid defensively as the season goes on. They and Leicester at the moment look most likely to 'break the top 6'. Watford's xG surprises me though I can't say I've watched much of theirs outside of the weekly extended highlights of the PL.

Lampard has impressed me so far. I expected a much rougher transition and even though I don't think their team is great I think they've looked exciting which is probably the best case that Chelsea could have hoped for. They're a fun team to watch right now even if that means potentially missing out on Europe for a season or two.


----------



## phisherman

I think this was from an Ornstein article.

Also are we OK with posting summaries on The Athletic articles? I'm not sure if it will get HFBoards in trouble since they're under a pay wall.

_A brief summary from The Athletic article:_

_Unai was always intended to be a bridge and a pragmatic manager: "Gazidis and his executive team also identified Emery as a potential ferryman to see Arsenal through the treacherous transitional waters, stirred up by the last few years of Wenger’s reign. [...] Arteta was the front-runner for the job, before Gazidis had a late change of heart. Succeeding Wenger was long talked of as a potential poisoned chalice, and it seemed Arsenal’s chief executive was reluctant to drop a first-time manager into an undeniably difficult job. "_
_Unai is unloved because his football is not fun to watch: "Emery’s tactical approach manages to be modern without being exciting."_
_No pressing drills in training, despite being a public advocate._
_We used to have scout-team matches v. U-23s - these were popular, but they stopped never to return last year._
_Unai's communication may be a problem. This is less about his limited English and more about the message he conveys._
_Some of Unai's methods, particularly the focus on video analysis, turns off some players._
_Key take away: "If Emery was identified as a transitional coach, then in some ways his purpose has already been served. In his time in charge has overseen a huge churn in personnel: Arsenal have sold off much of the deadwood, and begun to bring academy players through. The executive team and the backroom staff have undergone significant restructuring. It might not feel like the team is progressing, but the club is evolving."_
_Essentially, Unai was always meant to be a transitional manager. His tactics and play style have not endeared himself to the fans, but he remains popular among the players. Some of his training tactics are questionable.
_
I wonder who will be lined up to be his replacement for next year. I don't see him lasting beyond this year.

Could even end up having Ljungberg as caretaker for the rest of the year if things don't change.


----------



## davemess

Looks like John Stones is going to be out for about 5 weeks.

Will be interesting to see what the plan is for City now Otomendi is the only experienced 1st team CB.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Ouch, they could drop some crucial points.


----------



## Chimaera

I mean, Fernandinho should be able to deputy. But yeah, tough spot.


----------



## Chimaera

bleedblue1223 said:


> Ouch, they could drop some crucial points.




I mean, it should give some reason for teams like Everton and Watford to go after the defenders. They could also play Kyle Walker there in a pinch.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Chimaera said:


> I mean, Fernandinho should be able to deputy. But yeah, tough spot.



Which could be fine if Otomendi didn't suck.


----------



## hatterson

Chimaera said:


> I mean, Fernandinho should be able to deputy. But yeah, tough spot.




Fernandinho filling in at CB means he can't play as DM. Rodrigo has been good, but he doesn't control the defensive half or provide remotely the protection that Fernandinho does in that spot.


----------



## East Coast Bias

They really struggled last season when Fernandinho was out. I think people underestimate how important his role is in the MF>


----------



## YNWA14

Marcelino is available, as is Blanc. Both would be great choices.

Also City down to 1 CB makes me feel a lot better about Liverpool's chances, but injuries are a ***** and Liverpool aren't immune to them either. Hopefully teams take advantage of this for now though.


----------



## bleedblue1223

East Coast Bias said:


> They really struggled last season when Fernandinho was out. I think people underestimate how important his role is in the MF>



Right, they are going to hurt at one of the spots regardless.


----------



## Cassano

phisherman said:


> I think this was from an Ornstein article.
> 
> Also are we OK with posting summaries on The Athletic articles? I'm not sure if it will get HFBoards in trouble since they're under a pay wall.
> 
> _A brief summary from The Athletic article:_
> 
> _Unai was always intended to be a bridge and a pragmatic manager: "Gazidis and his executive team also identified Emery as a potential ferryman to see Arsenal through the treacherous transitional waters, stirred up by the last few years of Wenger’s reign. [...] Arteta was the front-runner for the job, before Gazidis had a late change of heart. Succeeding Wenger was long talked of as a potential poisoned chalice, and it seemed Arsenal’s chief executive was reluctant to drop a first-time manager into an undeniably difficult job. "_
> _Unai is unloved because his football is not fun to watch: "Emery’s tactical approach manages to be modern without being exciting."_
> _No pressing drills in training, despite being a public advocate._
> _We used to have scout-team matches v. U-23s - these were popular, but they stopped never to return last year._
> _Unai's communication may be a problem. This is less about his limited English and more about the message he conveys._
> _Some of Unai's methods, particularly the focus on video analysis, turns off some players._
> _Key take away: "If Emery was identified as a transitional coach, then in some ways his purpose has already been served. In his time in charge has overseen a huge churn in personnel: Arsenal have sold off much of the deadwood, and begun to bring academy players through. The executive team and the backroom staff have undergone significant restructuring. It might not feel like the team is progressing, but the club is evolving."_
> _Essentially, Unai was always meant to be a transitional manager. His tactics and play style have not endeared himself to the fans, but he remains popular among the players. Some of his training tactics are questionable.
> _
> I wonder who will be lined up to be his replacement for next year. I don't see him lasting beyond this year.
> 
> Could even end up having Ljungberg as caretaker for the rest of the year if things don't change.



He'll be sacked in December


----------



## Havre

Transition to what?

They wanted someone that can "convey" an uninspiring message for a couple of years? Seems like a decent way of describing Wenger's last years at Arsenal.

I am not a huge fan of Emery, but similar to the situation at Utd so much is/was wrong it will take time to fix it. Obviously won't ever be fixed if the wrong person is asked to do so, but a bit early to tell in both cases.


----------



## John Price

dumbass lampard won't f***ing play pulisic more


----------



## Jussi

Victor Lindelöf signs extension until 2024.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Roman Fell said:


> dumbass lampard won't ****ing play pulisic more



He probably has to reteach him football to forget everything Berhalter told him.


----------



## robertmac43

Jussi said:


> Victor Lindelöf signs extension until 2024.




Mediocrity for more years? Love it!


----------



## Jussi

robertmac43 said:


> Mediocrity for more years? Love it!




Says the Arsenal fan....


----------



## Blender

Roman Fell said:


> dumbass lampard won't ****ing play pulisic more



Maybe he should earn some playing time? He's not going to be handed time just because American fans are whining on social media.


----------



## Blender

Another reason Pulisic has been squeezed out:


----------



## robertmac43

Jussi said:


> Says the Arsenal fan....




We aren't resigning all of the unfortunate parts. So we got that going for us


----------



## Jussi

robertmac43 said:


> We aren't resigning all of the unfortunate parts. So we got that going for us




Emery.


----------



## Cassano

Blender said:


> Another reason Pulisic has been squeezed out:



He's really good, I am surprised how well he is playing. Did he play at this level in the Championship?


----------



## bleedblue1223

Cassano said:


> He's really good, I am surprised how well he is playing. Did he play at this level in the Championship?



Yes, and another thing, he played for Lampard at Derby last year. He knows what Lampard wants and Lampard knows he can execute and trust him. Pulisic is learning a new league and a new manager, and due to the Gold Cup, he had a bit of a late start at Chelsea.

Once all the Cup matches start, Pulisic will get plenty of playing time.


----------



## Jussi

4 more United fixture changes for November.

Confirmation of Man Utd's Premier League fixture changes


----------



## Cassano

bleedblue1223 said:


> Yes, and another thing, he played for Lampard at Derby last year. He knows what Lampard wants and Lampard knows he can execute and trust him. Pulisic is learning a new league and a new manager, and due to the Gold Cup, he had a bit of a late start at Chelsea.
> 
> Once all the Cup matches start, Pulisic will get plenty of playing time.



I don't see how he gets much time when Mount is playing this well.


----------



## YNWA14

Cassano said:


> I don't see how he gets much time when Mount is playing this well.



Mount is still young and still has things to work on as well despite his hot start. Rotation opportunities will be there with cup games, etc.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Cassano said:


> I don't see how he gets much time when Mount is playing this well.



Mount won't play in every game, and there is also the other attacking spot that will be available. Once Hudson-Odoi is healthy match fit, that'll hurt his chances more, and that will be soon. The interesting situation will be how we play when RLC comes back. What would the 1st choice formation be and how does Lampard view RLC as a player. Pulisic could quickly become the 4th/5th attacking option in a couple months once RLC is match fit.


----------



## Blender

bleedblue1223 said:


> Mount won't play in every game, and there is also the other attacking spot that will be available. Once Hudson-Odoi is healthy match fit, that'll hurt his chances more, and that will be soon. The interesting situation will be how we play when RLC comes back. What would the 1st choice formation be and how does Lampard view RLC as a player. Pulisic could quickly become the 4th/5th attacking option in a couple months once RLC is match fit.



I'm not exactly sure how I would set the formation, but the starting 11 I want when healthy is Abraham, CHO, Mount, Kante, Jorginho, RLC, Emerson, Rudiger, Tomori, Azpilicueta, and Kepa. 

4-4-2 diamond or 4-3-3 maybe? Abraham and CHO up top, Mount slightly behind them because he's lethal from distance. Kante, Jorginho, and RLC controlling the midfield.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Blender said:


> I'm not exactly sure how I would set the formation, but the starting 11 I want when healthy is Abraham, CHO, Mount, Kante, Jorginho, RLC, Emerson, Rudiger, Tomori, Azpilicueta, and Kepa.
> 
> 4-4-2 diamond or 4-3-3 maybe? Abraham and CHO up top, Mount slightly behind them because he's lethal from distance. Kante, Jorginho, and RLC controlling the midfield.



Those 2 or 4-2-3-1 would work. If James plays as well as I think he can, we'll see a back 3 with him and Emerson/Alonso as wing-backs.

Frank probably uses all 4 setups throughout the year.


----------



## Blender

bleedblue1223 said:


> Those 2 or 4-2-3-1 would work. If James plays as well as I think he can, we'll see a back 3 with him and Emerson/Alonso as wing-backs.
> 
> Frank probably uses all 4 setups throughout the year.



I definitely think James gets played, just not sure how good he'll be yet. No way Alfonso should play over Emerson, except for rotation. Emerson is really good, and highly underrated.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Blender said:


> I definitely think James gets played, just not sure how good he'll be yet. No way Alfonso should play over Emerson, except for rotation. Emerson is really good, and highly underrated.



Agreed. Alonso should only play as a wing-back in a back 3 IMO.


----------



## robertmac43

Jussi said:


> Emery.




I don't think he deserves quite the amount of hate he gets. Obviously not the elite of the elite when it comes to managers, but he has done pretty well considering the circumstances of the job.


----------



## Cassano

robertmac43 said:


> I don't think he deserves quite the amount of hate he gets. Obviously not the elite of the elite when it comes to managers, but he has done pretty well considering the circumstances of the job.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Hudson-Odoi re-signs


----------



## YNWA14

Cassano said:


>




What about the records?


----------



## hatterson

YNWA14 said:


> What about the records?




Emery is 23-9-11 for 78 points
Wenger was 24-6-13 for 78 points

That includes Wenger's tire fire last season during which they lost 8 of their last 16 games.


----------



## YNWA14

https://www.football365.com/news/f365-says-children-should-not-be-playing-adult-football

Interesting article.



hatterson said:


> Emery is 23-9-11 for 78 points
> Wenger was 24-6-13 for 78 points
> 
> That includes Wenger's tire fire last season during which they lost 8 of their last 16 games.



Certainly doesn't seem great. He needs top 4 this season or he needs to go, especially in a season where top 4 has never seemed more attainable.


----------



## Live in the Now

Sheffield United chief Prince Abdullah refuses to rule out investment from family of Osama Bin Laden | Daily Mail Online

Didn't realize they got funding from the Bin Ladens. Yikes.


----------



## Stray Wasp

Newcastle United legend and erstwhile under-23 team coach Peter Beardsley is banned from football for eight months by the FA for the use of racially abusive language towards players under his charge.

You can read Beardsley's defiant response here: Peter Beardsley handed eight-month ban by FA - read the full transcript of his statement. The mixture of self-pity and contempt for the verdict are worthy of a politician.

A thoroughly depressing story, this. Some good people have leaped to Beardsley's defence. I've read and heard sundry anecdotes of him being a model teammate, especially sympathetic to young team mates, as well as generous and kind towards fans. On the other hand, this was his second stint as NUFC reserves coach, and the first ended with him being discreetly eased out of his role after being _cleared _of racially aggravated bullying. The things he has been found guilty of saying revolt me. They are the words of a narrow-minded bigot. I won't repeat them, but Craig Hope of the Daily Mail, a Newcastle fan himself, has reported them if you really care to seek them out.

What's fascinating here, and bitterly amusing, is the line 'Surprisingly, Newcastle United did not provide the relevant training and education for Peter.'

Mike Ashley neglecting his staff? Mike Ashley showing no interest in corporate responsibility? Mike Ashley refusing to invest in people? Whoever would have thought it?

Just about everyone who knows about how Mike Ashley does business, that's who.

Not only did Beardsley return to work for NUFC under Ashley, but he publicly defended the man, to the disgust of many who'd revered him as a player. He came across as a time-server, despite the abundant evidence that if there's one type of person Ashley hates more than those who oppose him, it's those whose loyalty he can buy.

What a player Peter Beardsley was: an artist who worked like a journeyman, a host in himself who played selflessly for the team - quick in thought, movement and execution. Glorious close control, marvellous vision, genuinely two-footed, a dribbler or passer who could shoot with power or placement at distance. Many Geordies of my generation would declare him the best footballer they've seen wearing the black and white stripes, surpassing even Shearer. 

A hero on the football field, but off it a human being, and human beings carry failings. As he deserves praise for the joy he's brought, so Beardsley cannot now be defended for his squalid behaviour. 

When Steve Bruce was appointed, the Newcastle-supporting journalist George Caulkin lamented, 'Mike Ashley's regime chews up good people'. Mike Ashley isn't responsible for this - nobody forced Beardsley to say what he did. And in light of what he said, calling Beardsley 'good' would feel a hell of a stretch. It was, however, on Ashley's watch that a man who'd demonstrated no especial aptitude for coaching, who had hanging over him an unpleasant murk, was brought back to the club, seemingly as a reward for being a sycophant. I'll freely confess to my bias. Still, it's hard to escape the feeling that at Newcastle United, every current washes back into the same polluted waters.


----------



## YNWA14

Live in the Now said:


> Sheffield United chief Prince Abdullah refuses to rule out investment from family of Osama Bin Laden | Daily Mail Online
> 
> Didn't realize they got funding from the Bin Ladens. Yikes.



Have they done something bad? I don't know enough about them but aside from millionaire/billionaire lack of ethics that apply to most huge businesses didn't they make their money in construction or something and disown Osama? This is just what I've read online and I'm too lazy to look into it deeper. Seems like a business deal like any other these days when it comes to footy.


----------



## Live in the Now

YNWA14 said:


> Have they done something bad? I don't know enough about them but aside from millionaire/billionaire lack of ethics that apply to most huge businesses didn't they make their money in construction or something and disown Osama? This is just what I've read online and I'm too lazy to look into it deeper. Seems like a business deal like any other these days when it comes to footy.




No, there's more than just Osama. I'll link you all this because I don't want to copy and paste everything.

Bin Laden family - Wikipedia

It also looks bad.


----------



## bluesfan94

Jussi said:


> Emery.



OGS.


----------



## les Habs

Stray Wasp said:


> Newcastle United legend and erstwhile under-23 team coach Peter Beardsley is banned from football for eight months by the FA for the use of racially abusive language towards players under his charge.
> 
> You can read Beardsley's defiant response here: Peter Beardsley handed eight-month ban by FA - read the full transcript of his statement. The mixture of self-pity and contempt for the verdict are worthy of a politician.
> 
> A thoroughly depressing story, this. Some good people have leaped to Beardsley's defence. I've read and heard sundry anecdotes of him being a model teammate, especially sympathetic to young team mates, as well as generous and kind towards fans. On the other hand, this was his second stint as NUFC reserves coach, and the first ended with him being discreetly eased out of his role after being _cleared _of racially aggravated bullying. The things he has been found guilty of saying revolt me. They are the words of a narrow-minded bigot. I won't repeat them, but Craig Hope of the Daily Mail, a Newcastle fan himself, has reported them if you really care to seek them out.
> 
> What's fascinating here, and bitterly amusing, is the line 'Surprisingly, Newcastle United did not provide the relevant training and education for Peter.'
> 
> Mike Ashley neglecting his staff? Mike Ashley showing no interest in corporate responsibility? Mike Ashley refusing to invest in people? Whoever would have thought it?
> 
> Just about everyone who knows about how Mike Ashley does business, that's who.
> 
> Not only did Beardsley return to work for NUFC under Ashley, but he publicly defended the man, to the disgust of many who'd revered him as a player. He came across as a time-server, despite the abundant evidence that if there's one type of person Ashley hates more than those who oppose him, it's those whose loyalty he can buy.
> 
> What a player Peter Beardsley was: an artist who worked like a journeyman, a host in himself who played selflessly for the team - quick in thought, movement and execution. Glorious close control, marvellous vision, genuinely two-footed, a dribbler or passer who could shoot with power or placement at distance. Many Geordies of my generation would declare him the best footballer they've seen wearing the black and white stripes, surpassing even Shearer.
> 
> A hero on the football field, but off it a human being, and human beings carry failings. As he deserves praise for the joy he's brought, so Beardsley cannot now be defended for his squalid behaviour.
> 
> When Steve Bruce was appointed, the Newcastle-supporting journalist George Caulkin lamented, 'Mike Ashley's regime chews up good people'. Mike Ashley isn't responsible for this - nobody forced Beardsley to say what he did. And in light of what he said, calling Beardsley 'good' would feel a hell of a stretch. It was, however, on Ashley's watch that a man who'd demonstrated no especial aptitude for coaching, who had hanging over him an unpleasant murk, was brought back to the club, seemingly as a reward for being a sycophant. I'll freely confess to my bias. Still, it's hard to escape the feeling that at Newcastle United, every current washes back into the same polluted waters.




My apologies if I've missed them, but curious your take on Owen's comments whilst making the rounds as well as his time with Newcastle.


----------



## robertmac43

Good article on the changes in the goal kick laws that came into effect at the start of this season. 

'It’s definitely a lot more pressure than it used to be' -...


----------



## S E P H

Not trying to bash United, but I gotta admit I am quite shocked that de Gea decided to stay with that mess.



Cassano said:


> He'll be sacked in December



I've been a fan of Kroenke-owned sports teams for as long as I can remember. Not that I went out of my way to choose them, but more of a pure coincidence and let me say that as long as I can remember his teams have never fired managers, coaches, or staff in the middle of seasons...like ever. I am not a Rapids fans, but I think the only time his sports teams fired someone at any part of the season was when they were on the bottom of the MLS and were by far the worst team in their division.



Jussi said:


> Emery.



Hilarious coming from a fan of a club who is the definition of prostitution concerning managers.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Live in the Now said:


> Sheffield United chief Prince Abdullah refuses to rule out investment from family of Osama Bin Laden | Daily Mail Online
> 
> Didn't realize they got funding from the Bin Ladens. Yikes.




"And here are your Blades, brought to you by Bin Laden" - I can imagine better tag lines.


----------



## robertmac43

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> "And here are your Blades, brought to you by Bin Laden" - I can imagine better tag lines.




Wednesday should put a billboard of this up in Sheffield!


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

@Cassano, you now have to stop the Pulisic slander.


----------



## Stray Wasp

les Habs said:


> My apologies if I've missed them, but curious your take on Owen's comments whilst making the rounds as well as his time with Newcastle.





Luke Edwards of the Daily Telegraph, who worked for the Newcastle Journal in 2008-9, tellingly pointed out that while it had been common knowledge within football that Shearer wasn't happy with Owen, Shearer never went public. But Owen has a book to sell, and a shortfall of integrity. Note his body language during moments in the interview when he falls silent - once biting his nails, another time inspecting them. Hardly indicative of a man at ease with himself and the purported truth he's peddling.

The contempt his book expresses for Newcastle United and the city it represents is no revelation - from the first there was a sense he'd only come because Liverpool didn't want him. But if you want a notion of his reliability as a witness, consider his comments about how uncomfortable he, with his strong affection for Liverpool, felt in 2009 about having a choice of whether to sign for Everton or Manchester United. In fact, Owen is famously a boyhood Everton fan. He chose Manchester United for ambition, just as he left Liverpool in 2004 because he thought he'd outgrown them. There's nothing wrong with looking out for yourself first - until you try and pull on people's heart strings to look like the good guy.

On twitter, Owen accused Shearer of wanting to leave Newcastle for Liverpool when Bobby Robson was manager. The exact opposite was true - as far back as 2004 it was being reported that in the summer of 2003 Robson had wanted to move out the then 33-year old Shearer and build his attack around Emile Mpenza (that he was thwarted, and Shearer scored 22 EPL goals in 03/04, is one of many examples of Robson being saved from his own erratic instincts). Embarrassingly, plenty of journalists who covered the club around then corrected Owen (not that the correction achieved as much attention as Owen's initial untruth).

Owen objected to Shearer supposedly taking his comments about not enjoying his last six or seven years in football out of context. I think the justice of Shearer's response to that self-pitying quote is borne out by Owen's overcompensatory remarks in the interview you've linked about how many marvellous memories he had of his years at Old Trafford. There he scored 17 goals in 52 games over three years - a lesser appearance and strike rate than the spell on Tyneside that he regrets so much.

As to the 'Shearer blames me for Newcastle's relegation' bleat - Owen plays loose with the facts. As he tells it, you'd think Shearer was trying to rush him back from a long absence to save him. The reality is that Owen played in the first six of Shearer's eight game in charge, scoring a grand total of zero goals. Five of those were starts, and he played every single minute of four. It was before the seventh game, Fulham at home, that, according to Newcastle's then physiotherapist Paul Ferris, Owen complained of "feeling his groin". After a scan showed no muscle tear, Owen said, "What if I rip my groin on Saturday? I'll not get a contract at another club if I'm injured."

An ironic comment in itself when you remember that Real Madrid signed Jonathan Woodgate to accompany Owen to Spain while injured. But I digress. More pertinently, Paul Ferris is a qualified barrister, and Michael Owen has never sued him for libel. Ferris, himself a highly-rated teenage striker whose career was ruined by injury, writes positively about Owen as a person and professional. He empathises with Owen's fears on that occasion, but the undertone of disappointment is palpable.

If you care to contrast, in 1997, approaching his 27th birthday, about to lead his childhood club into their first ever European Cup campaign and captain his country in a World Cup finals, Alan Shearer simultaneously broke his right leg and dislocated the ankle. His foot was hanging loose, and pointing at six o'clock instead of twelve. The diagnosis was he'd be out for nine months; Shearer returned in five and a half. If anything, his haste to bail out a struggling NUFC probably came at a cost to his general conditioning. It wasn't until four years later, following international retirement and three operations to cure tendinitis of the knee, that Shearer ceased to struggle with injuries. His pace was gone. But he adapted. Owen, a boy wonder at the age of 17, retired aged 33. Shearer, who at 17 became the youngest player to score a top-flight hat-trick in England, underwent surgery more than 15 times during his career, but retired at 35 second only to Jimmy Greaves as the English elite division's leading goalscorer since the Second World War.

My perspective on Owen's actual play at Newcastle is a minority one - he wasn't quite the disaster he was portrayed to be with hindsight following the bitterness of relegation. In the first half of 2005-6, Newcastle only scored two goals from open play with him off the field. In 2007-8 his goals helped Kevin Keegan's side achieve the late run of wins that helped them avoid relegation.

The problem was that once he lost a gear following that knee injury prior to the 2006 World Cup the limitations of his game were laid bare. A club record signing, earning £120,000 a week (50% more than NUFC's best-paid player earns _today_), went from being an outstanding player to a merely good one. And since he was playing for a declining power, apart from a double against sunderland in the Tyne-Wear derby, none of his goals provided especially memorable highs. Compare with Tino Asprilla, an signing who wasn't notably successful, but whose hat-trick against Barcelona in the Champions League casts all his failings into the shadows.

Owen never wanted to be at Newcastle in the first place, and even when he was at Liverpool there were plenty fans felt he put country before club. He says he's shy, but crucially not in a way that comes across sympathetically - he's always exuded calculation and a sense of being enclosed, to which he's now added a sense of sitting miserably on his vast fortune nursing grudges. So when, having used NUFC during his playing career he uses the club again to help flog his book, and spouts a heap of inconsistencies and worse, to my mind the abuse many other Geordies have long given him has now been earned.


----------



## YNWA14

I mean, if Balotelli got in trouble for his 'racist' thing before I'm not sure how Silva escapes punishment here.

Bernardo Silva in racism storm over tweet aimed at Man City teammate


----------



## PansCyans

Alisson and Klopp take home the FIFA “best” awards for keeper and manager. VVD loses out to Messi for best player award.


----------



## YNWA14

It's too bad that Modric won the Ballon d'Or last year or I'd feel a lot more confident about van Dijk winning it. Would definitely be nice to see him win the award; very deservedly.

Still, Messi is not undeserving. Congrats to him on this one.


----------



## S E P H

Good news! The wankers who attacked Ozil and Kola have been arrest and charged with attempted robbery!


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Who wants Spurs CL spot?


----------



## SJSharks72

YNWA14 said:


> I mean, if Balotelli got in trouble for his 'racist' thing before I'm not sure how Silva escapes punishment here.
> 
> Bernardo Silva in racism storm over tweet aimed at Man City teammate



I don’t really see a problem with it if the part where Mendy took it well is accurate.


----------



## phisherman

How is that racist?


----------



## YNWA14

SJSharks39 said:


> I don’t really see a problem with it if the part where Mendy took it well is accurate.





phisherman said:


> How is that racist?



I don't think a lot of people actually know what racism is anymore the way it's thrown around about almost everything. I feel like it's almost insulting to people that have had to actually endure real racism.

That said, again if Balotelli got in trouble for this, then I don't see how Silva escapes some kind of punishment.


----------



## phisherman

YNWA14 said:


> I don't think a lot of people actually know what racism is anymore the way it's thrown around about almost everything. I feel like it's almost insulting to people that have had to actually endure real racism.
> 
> That said, again if Balotelli got in trouble for this, then I don't see how Silva escapes some kind of punishment.




The Balotelli post isn't racist either. Bunch of snowflakes out there.


----------



## East Coast Bias

YNWA14 said:


> I don't think a lot of people actually know what racism is anymore the way it's thrown around about almost everything. I feel like it's almost insulting to people that have had to actually endure real racism.
> 
> That said, again if Balotelli got in trouble for this, then I don't see how Silva escapes some kind of punishment.




You don't see what's racist in comparing your black teammate to a chocolate candy mascot which is a known caricature of an african child with it's own checkered past? I mean the candy is chocolate and called Conguitos (an ode to the Congo) and the caricature used to have a spear. Really? Nothing there? Can't see it?

His intentions don't matter. That he grew up seeing this and joking about it in Spanish/Portuguese cultural means he isn't malicious. It doesn't make it non racist.


----------



## YNWA14

East Coast Bias said:


> You don't see what's racist in comparing your black teammate to a chocolate candy mascot which is a known caricature of an african child with it's own checkered past? I mean the candy is chocolate and called Conguitos (an ode to the Congo) and the caricature used to have a spear. Really? Nothing there? Can't see it?
> 
> His intentions don't matter. That he grew up seeing this and joking about it in Spanish/Portuguese cultural means he isn't malicious. It doesn't make it non racist.



So in what way is he discriminating, showing prejudice, inciting hatred or imposing superiority over anyone with this?


----------



## East Coast Bias

YNWA14 said:


> So in what way is he discriminating, showing prejudice, inciting hatred or imposing superiority over anyone with this?




Do you think the mascot is an issue itself?


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

oh christ al-f***ing-mighty


----------



## bleedblue1223

The problem is don't make a joke like that public. If it's a genuine joke with Mendy, you should be aware enough to know that it's more of a private joke. 

The mascot itself should be more of the issue though.


----------



## SJSharks72

bleedblue1223 said:


> The problem is don't make a joke like that public. If it's a genuine joke with Mendy, you should be aware enough to know that it's more of a private joke.
> 
> The mascot itself should be more of the issue though.



I do agree with everything you said here. I don’t think the joke itself was all that bad as Mendy found it funny too.


----------



## hatterson

There's plenty of things you can joke about in private that aren't appropriate to joke about in public.


----------



## S E P H

East Coast Bias said:


> You don't see what's racist in comparing your black teammate to a chocolate candy mascot which is a known caricature of an african child with it's own checkered past?



Is the Wendy's logo racist towards Gingers?


----------



## East Coast Bias

S E P H said:


> Is the Wendy's logo racist towards Gingers?




This is perfectly on brand for you, and I'm more than happy to find myself on the opposing side of this argument from you


----------



## S E P H

East Coast Bias said:


> This is perfectly on brand for you, and I'm more than happy to find myself on the opposing side of this argument from you



So you like being a hypocrite? Wendy's and Black Dude Candy figure aren't racist or discriminatory towards their races.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Looking at the Conguitos mascots, they have the same red lips on a white version of it, and they also have black and white versions without the red lips. 

The black one with the red lips definitely appears bad on the surface, but in reality it's probably just more of a poorly done mascot, since the white one is the exact same way.


----------



## VEGASKING

I really hope Ginger being a race catches on.


----------



## YNWA14

VEGASKING said:


> I really hope Ginger being a race catches on.



The way people treat gingers they would never be given a recognized status.


----------



## CapitalsCupReality

That posters even doubt it’s racist speaks volumes to the larger issue at hand. Sad. His intention however I don’t believe were, so he’s just a knucklehead IMO and will learn from this.


----------



## YNWA14

CapitalsCupReality said:


> That posters even doubt it’s racist speaks volumes to the larger issue at hand. Sad. His intention however I don’t believe were, so he’s just a knucklehead IMO and will learn from this.



Or maybe it's the people that are acting like it was racist that are the issue.


----------



## CapitalsCupReality

YNWA14 said:


> Or maybe it's the people that are acting like it was racist that are the issue.





Sorry we don’t get to decide what offends each race.


----------



## YNWA14

CapitalsCupReality said:


> Sorry we don’t get to decide what offends each race.



Do you know who John Barnes is?

You also absolutely are trying to decide what is offensive in this situation so that comment is a bit...hypocritical.


----------



## CapitalsCupReality

YNWA14 said:


> Do you know who John Barnes is?




I couldn’t care if Muhammad Ali himself came back to speak on this issue quite honestly.

Some are clearly offended by this type of imagery. It is what it is. The debate is pointless. I’m sure the player learned his lesson and we move on.


----------



## CapitalsCupReality

YNWA14 said:


> Do you know who John Barnes is?
> 
> You also absolutely are trying to decide what is offensive in this situation so that comment is a bit...hypocritical.




Ok, you go fight the good fight against people being ultra sensitive to race issues. Good luck.


----------



## YNWA14

CapitalsCupReality said:


> I couldn’t care if Muhammad Ali himself came back to speak on this issue quite honestly.
> 
> Some are clearly offended by this type of imagery. It is what it is. The debate is pointless. I’m sure the player learned his lesson and we move on.



So you think that being offended by a cartoon black person is less racist than a jovial comparison of that cartoon and a person between friends, who both find it funny? The beauty in this situation being, of course, that it's largely white people jumping into the situation and calling it racist.


----------



## CapitalsCupReality

YNWA14 said:


> So you think that being offended by a cartoon black person is less racist than a jovial comparison of that cartoon and a person between friends, who both find it funny? The beauty in this situation being, of course, that it's largely white people jumping into the situation and calling it racist.




I can’t speak to what offends others. Me, I don’t think it was a racist act, just very poor situational awareness.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## bluesfan94

CapitalsCupReality said:


> I couldn’t care if Muhammad Ali himself came back to speak on this issue quite honestly.
> 
> Some are clearly offended by this type of imagery. It is what it is. The debate is pointless. I’m sure the player learned his lesson and we move on.



Haven’t been following this too closely but have there been a large number of black people actually offended?


----------



## CapitalsCupReality

bluesfan94 said:


> Haven’t been following this too closely but have there been a large number of black people actually offended?




No idea.


----------



## CapitalsCupReality

Lol!

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/sep/27/football-transfer-rumours-caglar-soyuncu-to-manchester-city

_A number of tabloids say *Paul Pogba *is “more determined than ever” to leave Manchester United in January, with *Real Madrid* still his most likely destination. *Having played against Rochdale like he was on the phone to his super agent Mino Raiola, that would appear to be true.*_


----------



## Jussi

According to Solskjär, Pogba's ankle was badly swollen after the game and sore at the end of the game and is therefore uncertain for the Arsenal game.


----------



## hatterson

Jussi said:


> According to Solskjär, Pogba's ankle was badly swollen after the game and sore at the end of the game and is therefore uncertain for the Arsenal game.




Decent chance Rashford and Martial miss too. So Greenwood could get his first league start.


----------



## phisherman

hatterson said:


> Decent chance Rashford and Martial miss too. So Greenwood could get his first league start.




Don't worry. There will be another edition of Lingard Dance Hall.


----------



## Jussi

hatterson said:


> Decent chance Rashford and Martial miss too. So Greenwood could get his first league start.




At least James seems to be fit so that's two forward positions covered. I also think Arsenal might be more fitting an opponent for Lingard as he can keep pressing their defense instead of trying to break down a parked bus.


----------



## bluesfan94

CapitalsCupReality said:


> No idea.



So who’s deciding that it’s offensive?


----------



## CapitalsCupReality

bluesfan94 said:


> So who’s deciding that it’s offensive?




People above our pay grade?


----------



## YNWA14

Yikes @ Spurs & United.


----------



## Blender

Lampard said it's likely both CHO and Reece James feature in the game tomorrow, but not sure if they start. Also said Tomori is the first choice CB right now.


----------



## Blender

YNWA14 said:


> Yikes @ Spurs & United.



I think people severely underrated how solid Leicester would be defensively.


----------



## Halladay

That graphic also illustrates how terrible the rest of the top 6 has been.


----------



## YNWA14

Halladay said:


> That graphic also illustrates how terrible the rest of the top 6 has been.



I think it's a combination of things, to be honest. I think coaching and parity has evolved to a level where it's not good enough to just have the best players and expect consistent results. I don't think that the overall talent level of the top 6 is worse than it has been in recent times, but I think that in some cases the coaching is lacking and on top of it the mid-table teams and even the bottom-table teams have begun to get stronger and have been finding some very good coaches as well. No doubt it also makes it harder that there are two teams head and shoulders above the rest. I don't think there being a 'locked in' top 6 is long for this league anymore.


----------



## Chimaera

In different notes, the court case between New Balance and Liverpool has had some details come out. 

Supposedly, Liverpool want to take less up front from Nike (more like 30-35 million a season) for a better percent of supplemental sales and non kit gear. That’s part of why they picked NB in the past, because they were given a bigger cut of non kit stuff (along with the ability to sell other goods). The key point of why Liverpool want Nike is they have a better distribution network (more stores, sales, etc) and are putting together a plan to market LFC with their people and influencers like Lebron, Drake, Serena, etc. the latter making sense as Lebron still owns a tiny fractional percent of the club. So by taking Nike, Liverpool felt they could sell more stuff than they could make with NB. New Balance are suing because their contract included some language about being able to try and match an offer. Liverpool’s argument seems to be that NB can’t offer the scale and market share that Nike can. 

Originally, it had seemed LFC wanted a record fee for the EPL, but I think they figure they’ll do much better taking a smaller fee but more money for other products. 

It should be interesting, especially when you consider the relationship NB seems to have with FSG going back (both Boston based companies).


----------



## Stray Wasp

YNWA14 said:


> I think it's a combination of things, to be honest. I think coaching and parity has evolved to a level where it's not good enough to just have the best players and expect consistent results. I don't think that the overall talent level of the top 6 is worse than it has been in recent times, but I think that in some cases the coaching is lacking and on top of it the mid-table teams and even the bottom-table teams have begun to get stronger and have been finding some very good coaches as well. No doubt it also makes it harder that there are two teams head and shoulders above the rest. I don't think there being a 'locked in' top 6 is long for this league anymore.




While I agree with much of what you say (although whether that final sentence proves correct is a moot point - it's hard to believe the top six wouldn't find a way of pulling up the ladder if they found themselves under too great a sustained threat), I think an important additional point is the amount of power now wielded by teflon bean-counters over recruitment. With increasing frequency, these figures set up coaches to fail safe in the knowledge they'll escape accountability.


----------



## Prntscrn

Chimaera said:


> In different notes, the court case between New Balance and Liverpool has had some details come out.
> 
> Supposedly, Liverpool want to take less up front from Nike (more like 30-35 million a season) for a better percent of supplemental sales and non kit gear. That’s part of why they picked NB in the past, because they were given a bigger cut of non kit stuff (along with the ability to sell other goods). The key point of why Liverpool want Nike is they have a better distribution network (more stores, sales, etc) and are putting together a plan to market LFC with their people and influencers like Lebron, Drake, Serena, etc. the latter making sense as Lebron still owns a tiny fractional percent of the club. So by taking Nike, Liverpool felt they could sell more stuff than they could make with NB. New Balance are suing because their contract included some language about being able to try and match an offer. Liverpool’s argument seems to be that NB can’t offer the scale and market share that Nike can.
> 
> Originally, it had seemed LFC wanted a record fee for the EPL, but I think they figure they’ll do much better taking a smaller fee but more money for other products.
> 
> It should be interesting, especially when you consider the relationship NB seems to have with FSG going back (both Boston based companies).




I'm a little confused by this though. A quick google say Liverpool average 1.13 million sold shirts per season. A shirt is about 75 pounds. 75*0.2 (read we're getting 20%) = 15. 15*1 130 000 = 16 950 000 + 30 000 000 = 46 950 000. Isn't that low? I get people are buying more than just shirts, but still.

PS my math sucks so I could be completely wrong


----------



## Chimaera

With kit deals, they’re usually getting a flat fee for the kit sales, and then a percent of the other items like hats, scarfs, you name it. 

So Liverpool is gambling they can sell more Nike secondary stuff to makeup the lost money on kits


----------



## bleedblue1223

Blender said:


> Lampard said it's likely both CHO and Reece James feature in the game tomorrow, but not sure if they start. Also said Tomori is the first choice CB right now.




I'd just like to thank David Luiz for making room for Tomori.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Fabianski out 2-3 months. Tore a hip muscle. 

Injuries may just do us in again.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

The current situation at Man United, Chelsea and Arsenal really illustrates how important it is that there's a cohesive approach to squad planning that matches the approach of the manager in question. 

That is of course difficult to establish if you switch managers every 6-18 months, a situation in which the longer tenured executive staff will by default gain far too much influence over player recruitment and retention given their lack of expertise. Man United have looked like they've been steered by the same hand of mediocrity ever since Ferguson left..and they're on their 4th manager since then. The rot with them is almost certainly at a suite level above the manager.


----------



## phisherman

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> The current situation at Man United, Chelsea and Arsenal really illustrates how important it is that there's a cohesive approach to squad planning that matches the approach of the manager in question.
> 
> That is of course difficult to establish if you switch managers every 6-18 months, a situation in which the longer tenured executive staff will by default gain far too much influence over player recruitment and retention given their lack of expertise. Man United have looked like they've been steered by the same hand of mediocrity ever since Ferguson left..and they're on their 4th manager since then. The rot with them is almost certainly at a suite level above the manager.




Not sure why you included Arsenal in this. They don't rotate managers like Chelsea.


----------



## Blender

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> The current situation at Man United, Chelsea and Arsenal really illustrates how important it is that there's a cohesive approach to squad planning that matches the approach of the manager in question.
> 
> That is of course difficult to establish if you switch managers every 6-18 months, a situation in which the longer tenured executive staff will by default gain far too much influence over player recruitment and retention given their lack of expertise. Man United have looked like they've been steered by the same hand of mediocrity ever since Ferguson left..and they're on their 4th manager since then. The rot with them is almost certainly at a suite level above the manager.



Chelsea is certainly guilty of rotating managers like crazy, but this season is the first one in a long time where it looks like they actually have a cohesive plan, despite not buying anyone really, since they have bought into playing the youth that perfectly fit Lampard's style.


----------



## Rob

When is Mesut Ozil going to play in another match? Sat out again.


----------



## robertmac43

Rob said:


> When is Mesut Ozil going to play in another match? Sat out again.




His time at Arsenal has come and past at this point. I love the guy and his creative mind, but he is aging out of the team and there are younger players who are more effective in Unai's system right now.


----------



## Cassano

robertmac43 said:


> His time at Arsenal has come and past at this point. I love the guy and his creative mind, but he is aging out of the team and there are younger players who are more effective in Unai's system right now.



He looked like he is still our best option looking at Watford game.


----------



## AB13

I would definitely think Özil is a very good option to have, we lack so much creativity in midfield and Ceballos really doesn't have any end product at all. Willock and Özil are probably our most effective creative midfielders.


----------



## bluesfan94




----------



## PansCyans

The chance Gomez has been waiting for.


----------



## Blender

I question Jorginho's classification as a DM, but whatever his stats are great this year. Funny that he has been miles better under Lampard than Sarri.


----------



## robertmac43

Cassano said:


> He looked like he is still our best option looking at Watford game.




I'm not saying he is a bad option, Ozil is one of my favorite players. Just that he is clearly out of favour here and has been for a while. Having his huge salary on the books is not great when there are more than capable options that can play better under Emery.


----------



## bleedblue1223

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> The current situation at Man United, Chelsea and Arsenal really illustrates how important it is that there's a cohesive approach to squad planning that matches the approach of the manager in question.
> 
> That is of course difficult to establish if you switch managers every 6-18 months, a situation in which the longer tenured executive staff will by default gain far too much influence over player recruitment and retention given their lack of expertise. Man United have looked like they've been steered by the same hand of mediocrity ever since Ferguson left..and they're on their 4th manager since then. The rot with them is almost certainly at a suite level above the manager.



Chelsea have typically been very successful with that unorthodox approach, it does provide for some roller coaster years instead of sustained success though. The transfer ban may have forced us into building a long-term plan.


----------



## YNWA14

Georginio Wijnaldum would walk into any team


----------



## Stray Wasp

YNWA14 said:


> Georginio Wijnaldum would walk into any team




As Newcastle found out in 2015-16, it's one thing to possess the talent to walk into any team, it's another to be able to perform in any team.


----------



## SJSharks72

Blender said:


> I question Jorginho's classification as a DM, but whatever his stats are great this year. Funny that he has been miles better under Lampard than Sarri.



Now what if you added the great Scott McSauce McTominay to that graphic? Would it really be Jorginho sticking out?


----------



## YNWA14

Stray Wasp said:


> As Newcastle found out in 2015-16, it's one thing to possess the talent to walk into any team, it's another to be able to perform in any team.



Do you feel he didn't perform well for Newcastle?


----------



## bleedblue1223

YNWA14 said:


> Georginio Wijnaldum would walk into any team



I mean, is this much of a hot take?


----------



## YNWA14

bleedblue1223 said:


> I mean, is this much of a hot take?



Wasn't meant to be a hot take; just thought it was a nice article about a player that I feel is still underrated.


----------



## bleedblue1223

YNWA14 said:


> Wasn't meant to be a hot take; just thought it was a nice article about a player that I feel is still underrated.



Didn't mean it was a hot take by you, but by the author. It's behind a paywall, so I can't read it, so maybe I was off on my assumption from the title. I just don't think he's underrated and that it's not shocking to say he's start for any team in the league.


----------



## hatterson

I think the only team he doesn't start for is City.


----------



## YNWA14

bleedblue1223 said:


> Didn't mean it was a hot take by you, but by the author. It's behind a paywall, so I can't read it, so maybe I was off on my assumption from the title. I just don't think he's underrated and that it's not shocking to say he's start for any team in the league.



I can quote some excerpts without linking the whole article:



> When Liverpool launched an online vote for their star player of September yesterday, the torrent of replies celebrated the claims of Joël Matip, then Fabinho, Roberto Firmino and Virgil van Dijk. Most of the team got a mention but there were few shouts for Georginio Wijnaldum.
> 
> When the reviews were published after Liverpool’s 1-0 win over Sheffield United on Saturday, the news agenda revolved around whether Matip is “the new Alan Hansen”, the latest tributes to Van Dijk’s masterful defending, and admiring notices for Andrew Robertson’s flying block to deny John Fleck.
> 
> The focus for Liverpool’s goal was inevitably on the goalkeeper, Dean Henderson’s, howler rather than on the scorer, Wijnaldum. Yet the Liverpool midfielder, 28, had typically taken up a promising position, lurking on the edge of the area for a clearance. His technique was good, meeting the ball on the volley, head still, his body imparting power, guiding it past the stretching Jack O’Connell, keeping it on target. It was Henderson’s name in the headlines, for letting the ball slip through his grasp, but Wijnaldum, quietly, had contributed. Again.
> 
> Even if he rarely receives the headlines he deserves, Wijnaldum can never be described as “unsung”. The overjoyed reaction of his team-mates highlighted how much the softly-spoken Dutchman is liked as well as the importance of the goal. Liverpool fans constantly sing his name, and rightly so because of his influence and his passion for the team. Their No 5 came on to score twice against Barcelona at Anfield in last season’s Champions League semi-final comeback at Anfield. He then started the final that Liverpool won in Madrid. He loves the big occasion, scoring against Brazil in their own backyard at the 2014 World Cup, against Germany in Hamburg last month, against France last year. Big names, bring them on. Wijnaldum has scored five times in his past nine internationals. He should be fêted more. It is no exaggeration to venture that Wijnaldum could walk into any midfield in the world.






> Wijnaldum is so important to Liverpool, to Klopp, to his team-mates, to the fans. He does not risk giving the ball away lightly, shielding it with his body when challenged, showing his strength and determination. He is so much more than the ultimate continuity man, simply keeping moves ticking over. He is the brains in Liverpool’s midfield as well as one of the dynamos, often communicating with Klopp, always taking responsibility, and the manager trusts him implicitly.
> 
> Tomorrow should bring Wijnaldum’s 150th appearance for Liverpool since his £25 million move from Newcastle United in 2016. RB Salzburg are in town, and Klopp knows that he will need his most tactically sharp, industrious midfield players like Wijnaldum. Saturday should bring him a century of Premier League starts for Liverpool, in another challenging game, this time the visit of Brendan Rodgers’s vibrant Leicester City. Wijnaldum is increasingly Klopp’s go-to man.
> 
> Klopp appreciates the straight talking commonly found with Dutch footballers. When omitted from the starting line-up against Barcelona, Wijnaldum spoke afterwards of his “anger” towards the German. In some dressing rooms and with some players, that could be construed as an attack on the manager, rather than simply a sign of the player’s professionalism — more hunger than anger. The Klopp-Wijnaldum axis is vital for Liverpool, conveying tactical tweaks from bench to team.






> He leads by example, fronting up on and off the field, not only stopping and talking to the media in the good times, but willingly putting himself forward to be the dressing-room spokesman in defeat.
> 
> After only his second game for Liverpool, the 2-0 loss away to Burnley in August 2016, a club official asked Wijnaldum whether “he would do the post-match?” He immediately did five broadcast interviews, dealt with the tricky questions adroitly and was thanked by the official. Wijnaldum looked surprised at the expression of gratitude. “You can’t just talk when you win,” he replied. Liverpool realised even more what a special character they had brought in.






> One of the many qualities that Wijnaldum offers coaches is his versatility, something that Klopp noted from early in his career. Wijnaldum’s intelligence and mobility allow him to play a range of roles. Shortly after he signed for Liverpool, the Dutch newspaper AD published a graphic revealing his tactical flexibility, going back to his days as a striker with Sparta Rotterdam Under-14s.
> 
> He subsequently expanded on his variety act, listing the positions that he has filled in an interview with the club website, beginning by detailing how he also played midfield and No 10 for Sparta’s academy, then centre back in Feyenoord’s academy when moving there in 2004, as well as midfield, right wing, left wing and No 10. After moving to PSV in 2011, Wijnaldum operated as a No 6, at right and left midfield, as well as No 10.
> 
> In his one season at Newcastle, Wijnaldum featured initially as a No 10 but also as a No 6, a No 8, right and left midfield, and left wing, also confirming how much he learned tactically during his brief period under Rafa Benítez.
> 
> So far at Liverpool, he has played No 6, No 8 and, during an injury crisis, at centre back against Brighton & Hove Albion. He has served the Netherlands as a No 6, right midfield, No 8 and No 10.
> 
> Blessed with a “total football’ education, the man for all positions is the man for all reasons. Wijnaldum deserves to be celebrated as one of the most effective midfield players in the world.




It also goes at length to describe what a wonderful person he is off the pitch, how well liked he is by the staff, the other players, how humble he is and provides examples of things he does for the team and people that backed him all along the way.

So I don't think it's really a 'hot take' article but more just a celebration of the player.


----------



## bleedblue1223

YNWA14 said:


> I can quote some excerpts without linking the whole article:
> 
> It also goes at length to describe what a wonderful person he is off the pitch, how well liked he is by the staff, the other players, how humble he is and provides examples of things he does for the team and people that backed him all along the way.




Definitely. I've always liked him, ever since I played with him in the earlier versions of FIFA in 11 and 12. Sort of reminds me of Kante in a way, when Kante was at Leicester. People that watch the game closely know how good they were, but some have question them. Could Kante make it at a big club. Is Wijnaldum only good on a stacked team? Both are dumb questions.


----------



## YNWA14

bleedblue1223 said:


> Definitely. I've always liked him, ever since I played with him in the earlier versions of FIFA in 11 and 12. Sort of reminds me of Kante in a way, when Kante was at Leicester. People that watch the game closely know how good they were, but some have question them. Could Kante make it at a big club. Is Wijnaldum only good on a stacked team? Both are dumb questions.



They have some similarities for sure; they're two of the best transitional midfielders in the world (I would actually argue that they are the top 2) with some differing complementary strengths.


----------



## bleedblue1223

YNWA14 said:


> They have some similarities for sure; they're two of the best transitional midfielders in the world (I would actually argue that they are the top 2) with some differing complementary strengths.



Agreed, along with having great personalities. Hard to root against those 2.


----------



## KJS14

robertmac43 said:


> His time at Arsenal has come and past at this point. I love the guy and his creative mind, but he is aging out of the team and there are younger players who are more effective in Unai's system right now.




Find it tough to knock a guy for not being as effective in a seemingly ineffective system. It would help if he was actually given a run of games too.


----------



## robertmac43

KJS14 said:


> Find it tough to knock a guy for not being as effective in a seemingly ineffective system. It would help if he was actually given a run of games too.



Yes true and I would not complain if he did get another look. But at what point does the club look at Ozil; his salary, his term, his lack of consistency, his age; and decide it is best to move on from him? Obviously moving him may not be easy with is contact and age, however I think they got to look into it.

Don't get me wrong I love Ozil, he has brought tons of amazing moments to the club. The truth however, is he has not been the world class player we want him to be for a while now.


----------



## phisherman

robertmac43 said:


> Yes true and I would not complain if he did get another look. But at what point does the club look at Ozil; his salary, his term, his lack of consistency, his age; and decide it is best to move on from him? Obviously moving him may not be easy with is contact and age, however I think they got to look into it.
> 
> Don't get me wrong I love Ozil, he has brought tons of amazing moments to the club. The truth however, is he has not been the world class player we want him to be for a while now.




Umm the club is desperate to move him on. He's just not willing to move.


----------



## KJS14

robertmac43 said:


> Yes true and I would not complain if he did get another look. But at what point does the club look at Ozil; his salary, his term, his lack of consistency, his age; and decide it is best to move on from him? Obviously moving him may not be easy with is contact and age, however I think they got to look into it.
> 
> Don't get me wrong I love Ozil, he has brought tons of amazing moments to the club. The truth however, is he has not been the world class player we want him to be for a while now.




I'm a huge Ozil fan, so I'd rather see him stay and actually play. I think he's still one of our best options in midfield at the moment. But even if you think the club should try to sell him, it's going to be a lot tougher to do so if you continue to sit him while guys like Xhaka continue to start every game. Sitting him seems like a lose-lose situation to me.


----------



## hatterson

phisherman said:


> Umm the club is desperate to move him on. He's just not willing to move.




He's not willing to take a pay cut, no one else will pay him remotely what he's making at Arsenal, and Arsenal doesn't want to buy him out. It's not that he doesn't want to move.


----------



## phisherman

hatterson said:


> He's not willing to take a pay cut, no one else will pay him remotely what he's making at Arsenal, and Arsenal doesn't want to buy him out. It's not that he doesn't want to move.




He loves London. I don't know about after the robbery attempt but he wasn't willing to entertain any move away since he just married and settled down.


----------



## robertmac43

hatterson said:


> He's not willing to take a pay cut, no one else will pay him remotely what he's making at Arsenal, and Arsenal doesn't want to buy him out. It's not that he doesn't want to move.




I think he will end up heading to MLS or Turkey or something like that next summer and Arsenal will pay a part of his last year of the contract.


----------



## Stray Wasp

YNWA14 said:


> Do you feel he didn't perform well for Newcastle?




On the whole, he didn't. Particularly away from home. And for the second half of the season he couldn't wait to be away. Understandable up to a point, but of no use to Newcastle fans.

He was obviously talented, but I think it's revealing that for much of his spell on Tyneside he was reported as agitating to be played as a number 10, which isn't the role he's playing under Klopp - and which even at the time clearly didn't suit his abilities.


----------



## Corto

Stray Wasp said:


> On the whole, he didn't. Particularly away from home. And for the second half of the season he couldn't wait to be away. Understandable up to a point, but of no use to Newcastle fans.
> 
> He was obviously talented, but I think it's revealing that for much of his spell on Tyneside he was reported as agitating to be played as a number 10, which isn't the role he's playing under Klopp - and which even at the time clearly didn't suit his abilities.




I remember that season vividly - as it was the Payet/Bilic season.
You could see glimpses of how good Wijnaldum and Sissoko can be, but on the whole, they were nothing like the players that play for Liverpool or the Spurs (or for France in the 2016 EURO, where Sissoko was brilliant).

I still don't know how Newcastle got relegated, they had some quality players (IIRC even a young Thauvin was there), Janmaat, Gigi, Sissoko, Mitrovic, they brought in Shelvey... Dunno. Was gonna say Dwight Gayle, but he was in Palace at the time. 

Maybe they just brought in Rafa too late.

I do remember them struggling and being disappointed when we lost the away game 2-1, we were 5th at the time, above Man Utd, Liverpool and Chelsea (what a f*****g season!), and we just never got going. Think it was still McLaren managing.


----------



## Live in the Now

Corto said:


> I still don't know how Newcastle got relegated, they had some quality players (IIRC even a young Thauvin was there), Janmaat, Gigi, Sissoko, Mitrovic, they brought in Shelvey... Dunno. Was gonna say Dwight Gayle, but he was in Palace at the time.




This one's easy to explain, they couldn't defend. Schteve thought they could play like it was FIFA. After he was sacked, they gave up 12 goals in 10 games. That defensive ability would keep any team from the drop, but it was too late by then. In those games, they played the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th placed teams. So it's not like they were only playing terrible teams.


----------



## Stray Wasp

Corto said:


> I remember that season vividly - as it was the Payet/Bilic season.
> You could see glimpses of how good Wijnaldum and Sissoko can be, but on the whole, they were nothing like the players that play for Liverpool or the Spurs (or for France in the 2016 EURO, where Sissoko was brilliant).
> 
> I still don't know how Newcastle got relegated, they had some quality players (IIRC even a young Thauvin was there), Janmaat, Gigi, Sissoko, Mitrovic, they brought in Shelvey... Dunno. Was gonna say Dwight Gayle, but he was in Palace at the time.
> 
> Maybe they just brought in Rafa too late.
> 
> I do remember them struggling and being disappointed when we lost the away game 2-1, we were 5th at the time, above Man Utd, Liverpool and Chelsea (what a f*****g season!), and we just never got going. Think it was still McLaren managing.




Newcastle United 2015/16 was a team that for 28 games out of 38 had simply everything wrong with it.

At the end of 2014/15 the dressing room was variously demoralised and apathetic. In the off-season, the club made four significant signings, all untried in the EPL. Mbemba and Mitrovic were both aged 20; in mental terms the latter was going on eight. Thauvin arrived with reluctance, fresh from being voted biggest disappointment of the previous Ligue 1 season. None of those players were ever likely to add leadership or consistency, nor did they. The two most influential players in the squad were Coloccini and Sissoko. Neither wanted to be there. Coloccini's legs were gone. Sissoko is a human snare for coaches who value physicality over skill and intelligence. Even if both players had been fully committed, these shortcomings would have left them struggling to lead by example.

The balance of the team was non-existent. Mitrovic thrives on crosses, but no one had been signed to provide any. His temperament wasn't suited to lead the line against EPL defences, so taking the sting out of games was nigh-on impossible. The central midfielders for the first half of the season were Tiote, Anita and Colback. You look in vain for playmaking guile or game-breaking skill from that trio. Wijnaldum was initially the number 10, which doesn't quite suit him. McClaren didn't trust Perez, the most intelligent attacker the club had, but Perez suffered anyway for the lack of players on his wavelength. And Perez has never been explosive enough to destroy defences on his own.

In goal, Tim Krul missed more than half the season from injury, leaving the door open for Rob Elliot, a Championship keeper. The fullbacks were Janmaat - unintelligent and only sporadically committed, and Dummett, who at that stage was Championship standard.

Into this mess was thrown Steve McClaren. The players liked him, but didn't respect him a jot. He'd been told by the Ashley regime he was expected to play an attacking style: an unfortunate demand to make of someone who can't structure possession football. And Steve McClaren has always been an example of that classic English coach who, if his team struggles to find a goal, simply urges his players forward in greater numbers, thus giving a passable impersonation of a First World War general, with comparatively futile results.

Shelvey and Townsend, when they arrived, were begged to carry the team. This suited Shelvey's ego, but not his actual level of usefulness or strength of character. All McClaren knew to do with Townsend was to let him run fast upfield in straight lines. The 2-1 win over West Ham you mention was about as good as it got between early January and early March.

Benitez made a big difference, in the same way it makes a difference trying to fly from London to Paris using an aeroplane rather than by leaping off the white cliffs of Dover flapping a pair of home-made cardboard wings. Revealingly, though, even he needed several games to detoxify the players, and only one point was taken from vital back-to-back games against sunderland and Norwich. He was blatantly appointed at least two games too late. The miracle is that the fervour of Newcastle fans encouraged him to continue to work with an owner who would have preferred to keep a far worse manager and considered appointing him an act of last resort.


----------



## Corto

Stray Wasp said:


> And Steve McClaren has always been an example of that classic English coach who, if his team struggles to find a goal, simply urges his players forward in greater numbers, thus giving a passable impersonation of a First World War general, with comparatively futile results.




Bahahhahaha some of my morning coffee nearly went up my nose when I read this.   

Thank you for the post, hugely enjoyable read.


----------



## CapitalsCupReality

YNWA14 said:


> So you think that being offended by a cartoon black person is less racist than a jovial comparison of that cartoon and a person between friends, who both find it funny? The beauty in this situation being, of course, that it's largely white people jumping into the situation and calling it racist.




Bernardo Silva charge is a token gesture when so much racism is not tackled | Eni Aluko

Worth reading for her viewpoint IMO. 


_I would guess that most of us have sent things to friends on WhatsApp that would make us very embarrassed if they were published. Silva’s main mistake was to tweet it to the world. But though Silva might not have intended to be racist, ignorance is never an adequate excuse.
Action had to be taken. City missed the opportunity to calm the controversy when instead of getting Silva to immediately apologise for any public offence he caused, Pep Guardiola mistakenly came out and dismissed the suggestionthat the tweet was racist. This was a demonstration of one of the key problems preventing us from effectively combatting racism: so many people do not actually understand what it is.
It is not simply name-calling and physical abuse. The character on the Conguitos logo, which before a relatively recent redesign used to carry a tribal spear, is similar to the kind of images that have been used to degrade black people since slavery, which means comparing it to any black person is unacceptable. Similar cartoons of white children simply do not have the same degrading connotations. No one ever got offended by the Milkybar Kid._


----------



## CapitalsCupReality

bleedblue1223 said:


> I'd just like to thank David Luiz for making room for Tomori.




Still stunned it’s worked out so well early.


----------



## Peen

What a consummate professional.


----------



## Stray Wasp

Corto said:


> Bahahhahaha some of my morning coffee nearly went up my nose when I read this.
> 
> Thank you for the post, hugely enjoyable read.




Generous words. Thank you.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Lampard announces that Jorginho is his vice-captain. Great pick IMO, it could really only have been him or Rudiger. 

Timing of the announcement leads me to believe that James is starting over Azpilicueta this weekend.


----------



## Blender

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Lampard announces that Jorginho is his vice-captain. Great pick IMO, it could really only have been him or Rudiger.
> 
> Timing of the announcement leads me to believe that James is starting over Azpilicueta this weekend.



Jorginho has been an absolute beast this season. With his leash taken off he's really controlling the midfield.


----------



## KJS14

Remember when Spurs were the clear 3rd best team in the league in July?


----------



## phisherman

KJS14 said:


> Remember when Spurs were the clear 3rd best team in the league in July?




With the 3rd best manager in the world.


----------



## bluesfan94

KJS14 said:


> Remember when Spurs were the clear 3rd best team in the league in July?



And lord help an arsenal fan if they dared to disagree.


----------



## S E P H

CapitalsCupReality said:


> Bernardo Silva charge is a token gesture when so much racism is not tackled | Eni Aluko
> 
> Worth reading for her viewpoint IMO.
> 
> 
> _I would guess that most of us have sent things to friends on WhatsApp that would make us very embarrassed if they were published. Silva’s main mistake was to tweet it to the world. But though Silva might not have intended to be racist, ignorance is never an adequate excuse.
> Action had to be taken. City missed the opportunity to calm the controversy when instead of getting Silva to immediately apologise for any public offence he caused, Pep Guardiola mistakenly came out and dismissed the suggestionthat the tweet was racist. This was a demonstration of one of the key problems preventing us from effectively combatting racism: so many people do not actually understand what it is.
> It is not simply name-calling and physical abuse. The character on the Conguitos logo, which before a relatively recent redesign used to carry a tribal spear, is similar to the kind of images that have been used to degrade black people since slavery, which means comparing it to any black person is unacceptable. Similar cartoons of white children simply do not have the same degrading connotations. No one ever got offended by the Milkybar Kid._



I hate racism, but what a thought police article.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Blender said:


> Jorginho has been an absolute beast this season. With his leash taken off he's really controlling the midfield.



Once RLC comes back, I'm not sure if I'd even want to spend money on midfield or attack if the transfer ban gets lifted early. I've been really happy with Jorginho, especially with his leadership around the youth.


----------



## Blender

bleedblue1223 said:


> Once RLC comes back, I'm not sure if I'd even want to spend money on midfield or attack if the transfer ban gets lifted early. I've been really happy with Jorginho, especially with his leadership around the youth.



Jorginho has been so much better with the freedom to move around the pitch and support the attack and defense. His very passive and restrictive role last season really limited his effectiveness. With RLC back, that gives us Jorginho, Kante, Kovacic, RLC, Mount, and Barkley in the midfield. Only thing I want Chelsea to buy is an understudy for Kante, because when he goes down we have no one who can even play that role.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Blender said:


> Jorginho has been so much better with the freedom to move around the pitch and support the attack and defense. His very passive and restrictive role last season really limited his effectiveness. With RLC back, that gives us Jorginho, Kante, Kovacic, RLC, Mount, and Barkley in the midfield. Only thing I want Chelsea to buy is an understudy for Kante, because when he goes down we have no one who can even play that role.



Agreed, as long as they buy someone knowing that they probably won't play much. Don't want another Drinkwater situation.


----------



## Blender

bleedblue1223 said:


> Agreed, as long as they buy someone knowing that they probably won't play much. Don't want another Drinkwater situation.



That was just a stupid buy, I didn't even understand it when we did it. At least with Barkley the hope was that we might be able to revive his promising potential, whether it works out or not.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Blender said:


> That was just a stupid buy, I didn't even understand it when we did it. At least with Barkley the hope was that we might be able to revive his promising potential, whether it works out or not.



Right, and Barkley was cheap. Barkley was a good buy because his price and he has a role that he's satisfied with and the club is too. Everyone knew he was just going to be a depth attacking-mid with possible upside. He has no problem getting minutes in Cup matches and here and there in the league. Drinkwater had a price tag of someone who should start a decent amount, but there was no spot for him, even on a rotational basis. 

I'm not sure who we'd want for Kante's depth because it's kind of like getting depth for Azpilicueta when he was at the top of his game. They just aren't going to play much.


----------



## Blender

bleedblue1223 said:


> Right, and Barkley was cheap. Barkley was a good buy because his price and he has a role that he's satisfied with and the club is too. Everyone knew he was just going to be a depth attacking-mid with possible upside. He has no problem getting minutes in Cup matches and here and there in the league. Drinkwater had a price tag of someone who should start a decent amount, but there was no spot for him, even on a rotational basis.
> 
> I'm not sure who we'd want for Kante's depth because it's kind of like getting depth for Azpilicueta when he was at the top of his game. They just aren't going to play much.



I honestly can't put a name on a Kante understudy. It's the kind of thing where you need to go find some 17/18 year old that displays a lot of the same skill set ideally. These types of players are often highly undervalued, so it's not like they will be expensive even if we have to buy from outside of our academy. Just need to get someone in and training with Kante and the club, so that when he is injured we at least have someone we can try in that role. Leicester bought Kante from Caen for £5.6m even after his season in Caen where he put up some of the best defensive stats of anyone in the top 4 leagues, because no one was looking at him except Steve Walsh.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Blender said:


> I honestly can't put a name on a Kante understudy. It's the kind of thing where you need to go find some 17/18 year old that displays a lot of the same skill set ideally. These types of players are often highly undervalued, so it's not like they will be expensive even if we have to buy from outside of our academy. Just need to get someone in and training with Kante and the club, so that when he is injured we at least have someone we can try in that role. Leicester bought Kante from Caen for £5.6m even after his season in Caen where he put up some of the best defensive stats of anyone in the top 4 leagues, because no one was looking at him except Steve Walsh.



Yeah, you either try and find that diamond in the rough or some vet for English player that isn't good enough to start at a top 6 club on a consistent basis, but just wants to be apart of the team.


----------



## bleedblue1223

I'm just happy we aren't one of the top 6 clubs in shambles right now. This season had disaster written all over it, but Lampard is executing his plan, and the youth are stepping up. Almost all of our top performers wouldn't have been even on the team if we didn't have the transfer ban. Possible that Tomori, Mount, and Abraham all would have been on loans. Crazy.


----------



## Chimaera

It's some of the trouble with Liverpool and their front 3. Who do they buy who is happy to sit the bench? 

You can't spend 80 million unless you're City on Pepe to have him ride the pine.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Chimaera said:


> It's some of the trouble with Liverpool and their front 3. Who do they buy who is happy to sit the bench?
> 
> You can't spend 80 million unless you're City on Pepe to have him ride the pine.



Right, and it's why I didn't believe any big name player would go there anyway. Players know the situations they are going to, no young promising player like Pepe would go to Liverpool when they know they can't break into that front 3.


----------



## Chimaera

I mean, I think they could, but Liverpool would have to be willing to keep their youth on the bench (or gone) and pay the equivalent wages. It's partially why Origi was kept. He's not the best player, but he scores a timely goal, works hard in training and fills a role. 

There's a significant challenge for Liverpool to find players who can fit what they need. Along with needing to balance it with some loyalty to players who got them there.


----------



## robertmac43

If someone had told me that Arsenal would be 1 point back of City at any point this season I would have laughed....yet here we are, feels strange!


----------



## bleedblue1223

Chimaera said:


> I mean, I think they could, but Liverpool would have to be willing to keep their youth on the bench (or gone) and pay the equivalent wages. It's partially why Origi was kept. He's not the best player, but he scores a timely goal, works hard in training and fills a role.
> 
> There's a significant challenge for Liverpool to find players who can fit what they need. Along with needing to balance it with some loyalty to players who got them there.



Yeah, it's why clubs with such high-end talent have players like Origi. They know their role and they are just happy to be along for the ride and will contribute when called upon. We aren't playing a game of FIFA where you can stack the bench with stars.


----------



## bleedblue1223

robertmac43 said:


> If someone had told me that Arsenal would be 1 point back of City at any point this season I would have laughed....yet here we are, feels strange!



It's why all teams need to have proper depth. City will continue to drop points as long as this is what their CB situation is.


----------



## Gunnersaurus Rex

Who gets sacked first?

Ole Gunnar Solskjær or Mauricio Pochettino


----------



## Chimaera

Well, if Liverpool shellac United in their next match, that might be the indicator. 

I'm just not sure there's a lot of other options where they can go out and get them. But theoretically it could put United in the relegation zone, or darn close.


----------



## Live in the Now

Joel Matip named PFA Player of the Month for September


----------



## AB13

Must be a bit embarassing to the United fans this one.


----------



## The Abusement Park

The Messiah said:


> Who gets sacked first?
> 
> Ole Gunnar Solskjær or Mauricio Pochettino




I think Poch. I think OGS will take a lot of flack that the front office should be taking.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

The Abusement Park said:


> *I think Poch.* I think OGS will take a lot of flack that the front office should be taking.




I think if he has been fired yet he won't until the end of the season.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> I think if he has been fired yet he won't until the end of the season.




Idk I think since OGS was the fan favorite for the job post mou and a legend I could see Woodward willing to let him be the scapegoat for a little. However he looks more out of his depth than I ever would’ve imagined and he needs to go.


----------



## hatterson

The Abusement Park said:


> Idk I think since OGS was the fan favorite for the job post mou and a legend I could see Woodward willing to let him be the scapegoat for a little. However he looks more out of his depth than I ever would’ve imagined and he needs to go.




I think him looking out of his depth makes it more likely that Woodward will leave him in the job for a bit.

If he looked like he was doing remotely alright with the team provided, firing him just increases the calls for Woodward to be replaced.

This was Woodward can just let him sit there for a while and then fire him when it’s too close to the January window for a new guy to come in and have any real say, but soon enough for Woodward to still claim innocence when they make terrible buys.


----------



## The Abusement Park

hatterson said:


> I think him looking out of his depth makes it more likely that Woodward will leave him in the job for a bit.
> 
> If he looked like he was doing remotely alright with the team provided, firing him just increases the calls for Woodward to be replaced.
> 
> This was Woodward can just let him sit there for a while and then fire him when it’s too close to the January window for a new guy to come in and have any real say, but soon enough for Woodward to still claim innocence when they make terrible buys.




I kind of see it as the board going “this was your guy, this is who you wanted” and almost turning it on the fans instead of it being another Woodward blunder.


----------



## Blender

Manchester City on another level so far in attack, but Liverpool has been much better at defending which is likely why they are undefeated and City have dropped points.

Chelsea pretty damn impressive, even with their defensive struggles, considering how many academy players they have been playing.


----------



## maclean

Blender said:


> Manchester City on another level so far in attack, but Liverpool has been much better at defending which is likely why they are undefeated and City have dropped points.
> 
> Chelsea pretty damn impressive, even with their defensive struggles, considering how many academy players they have been playing.




Unless I'm reading it wrong though, City also has the lowest shots against. So their defence is actually doing well (in preventing shots from ever being taken), though I guess they have been less efficient at keeping those chances from becoming goals.


----------



## Blender

maclean said:


> Unless I'm reading it wrong though, City also has the lowest shots against. So their defence is actually doing well (in preventing shots from ever being taken), though I guess they have been less efficient at keeping those chances from becoming goals.



You're reading it correctly, they have also faced the fewest shots against. They have a higher xGA than Liverpool and Manchester United though, but not by much. City has definitely dropped some points they had no business dropping based on how they have played.


----------



## PansCyans

I don’t know. The two loses they’ve suffered were deserved I’d say. Especially Norwich. They were so clever and focused on following their game against them.


----------



## bleedblue1223

City is what I expect from Pep teams. They will dominate their possession, so attack numbers will look great, but when they do give up opportunities, they tend to be more dangerous opportunities than other teams give up. Basically what the 3rd chart shows. The defense itself isn't all that great for them, but the game isn't that simple.

They are vulnerable, but do a great job of masking it with their attack.


----------



## Blender

koyvoo said:


> I don’t know. The two loses they’ve suffered were deserved I’d say. Especially Norwich. They were so clever and focused on following their game against them.



70/30% possession, 8 shots on target to 3, 25 shot attempts to 7. I'd say Man City dominated that game, and a few lapses lead to 3 goals against while they were less efficient in scoring on their chances.


----------



## PansCyans

Ya but sometimes stats don’t tell the full story. Both teams had a plan that would see them getva result and Norwich executes their plan far better than City did on the day.


----------



## Blender

koyvoo said:


> Ya but sometimes stats don’t tell the full story. Both teams had a plan that would see them getva result and Norwich executes their plan far better than City did on the day.



I agree, it's something I absolutely love about sports, you never really know what might happen. Norwich had a gameplan to exploit City's defensive vulnerability to counter-attacks, and it worked. All I'm saying is that if you played that match 10 games, Norwich maybe wins 1 or 2 of them, they were completely outplayed.

Stats like this are good for analyzing over periods of time, the larger the sample the better, and using those to project expected long term performance, but anything can happen in 1 game, or 2 games, etc.


----------



## The Abusement Park

maclean said:


> Unless I'm reading it wrong though, City also has the lowest shots against. So their defence is actually doing well (in preventing shots from ever being taken), though I guess they have been less efficient at keeping those chances from becoming goals.




When your goalie is Ederson you won’t get many saves.


----------



## The Abusement Park

OGS also given a vote of confidence by Woodward, so good chance he doesn’t make it much more than 3/4 weeks.


----------



## bluesfan94

koyvoo said:


> I don’t know. The two loses they’ve suffered were deserved I’d say. Especially Norwich. They were so clever and focused on following their game against them.



xGA scores for each time City dropped points (just for context):
City 1.62 - 1.19 Wolves
Norwich 1.74 - 2.34 City
City 3.20 - 0.07 Spurs


----------



## Chimaera

I mean, if you're Woodward, anyone but me is the goal.


----------



## hatterson

Chimaera said:


> I mean, if you're Woodward, anyone but me is the goal.




And Woodward has the support of the Glazers, so absent something shaking that up they're gonna default to believe whatever bunk he's peddling, especially if he keeps bringing in truckloads of cash for them to take out of the club.


----------



## PansCyans

bluesfan94 said:


> xGA scores for each time City dropped points (just for context):
> City 1.62 - 1.19 Wolves
> Norwich 1.74 - 2.34 City
> City 3.20 - 0.07 Spurs



To me, especially with the Norwich game are only a perfect illustration that these stats without the context of visuals are often useless and even many times misleading. It was a clear and decisive deserved loss to anyone who watched the game.


----------



## YNWA14

koyvoo said:


> To me, especially with the Norwich game are only a perfect illustration that these stats without the context of visuals are often useless and even many times misleading. It was a clear and decisive deserved loss to anyone who watched the game.



Maybe if you’re watching with tinted glasses. These were far from ‘clear and decisively earned’ losses.


----------



## PansCyans

They weren’t good enough. It’s not like opposing keepers were making save after glorious save or they were hitting the woodwork multiple times. 

A team like Norwich is not going to attempt or plan to beat City by holding the ball more or getting more shots on target. They executed their game plan far, far better than City executed their own on the day.


----------



## Jussi

Simon Stone: Man Utd: How bad is the latest crisis for Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's side?



> Sources have told the BBC that Solskjaer's initial view after replacing Mourinho was that United needed to change nine players.




Seems Matt Judge is the one who handles transfer negotiations:



> It does, however, shine a light once again on the club's major transfer negotiator, head of corporate development Matt Judge, and his ability to do deals. Woodward has previously defended the recruitment team and structure but one agent - who has been trying to arrange a loan deal for a client - has rather cruelly suggested Judge should be going out on loan to further his experience.






> Solskjaer was keen to make further signings but a combination of the correct players not being available, the inability to get unwanted players out of the club to create space and asking prices being deemed to be too high made it impractical.






> Behind the scenes, United's coaching staff know they are asking too much of Greenwood, Tahith Chong, Angel Gomes and Brandon Williams.


----------



## hatterson

Jussi said:


> Simon Stone: Man Utd: How bad is the latest crisis for Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's side?
> 
> 
> 
> Seems Matt Judge is the one who handles transfer negotiations:




I mean, a team with the resources of Manchester United doesn’t end up in this situation without some really, really deep disfunction.

No single manager could do this much damage on their own and no combination could do it without the club hierarchy being completely incompetent along the way.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Jussi said:


> Simon Stone: Man Utd: How bad is the latest crisis for Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's side?
> 
> 
> 
> Seems Matt Judge is the one who handles transfer negotiations:




This mess United is in really illustrates just how good SAF and Gill were at their jobs.


----------



## maclean

Among the more entertaining tidbits today: Allegri has hinted that he would be willing to take over United if it happened soon, but not later. 
But the real juicy one is: Mourinho would be keen on taking over coaching at Tottenham (I don't think the team is that dumb, but let me at least savour the idea)


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Anyone catch the drama between the wives of Wayne Rooney and Jamie Vardy?


----------



## The Abusement Park

spintheblackcircle said:


> Anyone catch the drama between the wives of Wayne Rooney and Jamie Vardy?




Super weird...


----------



## YNWA14

http://sportwitness.co.uk/rodri-learning-tactical-fouls-manchester-city-something-new/



> A crucial part of Guardiola’s system is the use of ‘tactical fouls’ to break up opponents’ attacks when they hit City on the counter.
> 
> The tactic has received criticism from some corners, with plenty believing that it is against the spirit of the game.
> 
> City are usually loathed to admit it’s a part of their style, but Rodri is more forthcoming, admitting it’s something he’s still learning to master.
> 
> _“It’s playing a role that was not so usual for me, knowing how to stop the game, the tactical foul, knowing when I have to squeeze or stay,”_ he added.




Didn't Guardiola vehemently deny that they trained to make tactical fouls?


----------



## hatterson

YNWA14 said:


> http://sportwitness.co.uk/rodri-learning-tactical-fouls-manchester-city-something-new/
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't Guardiola vehemently deny that they trained to make tactical fouls?




Pep Guardiola denies claims that Manchester City use tactical fouling



> “I completely don’t agree with that,” the City manager said of Neville’s comments. “We are a team that try to play and, of course, when there is a counter-attack sometimes the contact, the action is a foul but as a team we don’t think about that.
> “Never have my teams been focused on doing something wrong against the opponents. Sometimes situations happen but we are a team that always try to attack, to defend well, to try to play our game but never having to think about making actions like that.
> “I’m completely not agreeing with those comments that we are a team that is looking for these kind of situations because it never happened in Barcelona, it never happened in Bayern Munich and it can never happen at City and will never happen in the future in my career.
> “I’m not disclosing a secret when I say that when the opponent has the ball we’re going to push them, press them to regain the ball to attack more. But people have to know, and Gary Neville knows perfectly because he was a former player, the opponents play, too.
> “Sometimes they dribble, you arrive late and you’re down and make a foul. So, yeah, it happens - I’m not saying we don’t make fouls. But the intention to do something [deliberately] … no.
> “Normally when for every 10 minutes you have the ball for seven of them there is less option to make fouls. I don’t think we’re a team that make a lot of fouls in games but I can assure you never in my life in one meeting or one idea did I say to my players, ‘You have to do that to make problems to the opponents, to not let them be who they are’. We take the ball to play again.”


----------



## YEM

spintheblackcircle said:


> Anyone catch the drama between the wives of Wayne Rooney and Jamie Vardy?



I can't get enough of this story, it's amazing
Mrs. Rooney with a stroke of brilliance in how she caught Mrs. Vardy!


----------



## Jussi

mmvvpp said:


> I can't get enough of this story, it's amazing
> Mrs. Rooney with a stroke of brilliance in how she caught Mrs. Vardy!




Wayne obviously married her for her brains.


----------



## hatterson

BTW, if anyone wonders why Woodward is given so much rope by the owners:

https://www.espn.com/soccer/manches...nited-expect-to-break-world-record-shirt-deal



> Manchester United can expect to top their £450 million Chevrolet deal as they search for a new shirt sponsor, sources have told ESPN FC.
> The agreement with American car manufacturer General Motors, signed in 2012 before coming into effect ahead of the 2014-15 season, is set to come to an end in 2021.




The new deal would be a record


----------



## bleedblue1223

hatterson said:


> BTW, if anyone wonders why Woodward is given so much rope by the owners:
> 
> https://www.espn.com/soccer/manches...nited-expect-to-break-world-record-shirt-deal
> 
> 
> 
> The new deal would be a record




Yeah, at the end of the day, the vast majority of owners care more about money than trophies.


----------



## Chimaera

I mean, when it comes down to it, the owners do want to win, but the bottom line is the priority. 

I will say, while the deal might be a record, I imagine there's a decent escalator that won't be met if they don't get in the CL.


----------



## Savant

hatterson said:


> BTW, if anyone wonders why Woodward is given so much rope by the owners:
> 
> https://www.espn.com/soccer/manches...nited-expect-to-break-world-record-shirt-deal
> 
> 
> 
> The new deal would be a record



He is your Ian Ayre. 

also does anyone else besides the Liverpool fans know what Ian Ayre is doing now?


----------



## YNWA14

hatterson said:


> BTW, if anyone wonders why Woodward is given so much rope by the owners:
> 
> https://www.espn.com/soccer/manches...nited-expect-to-break-world-record-shirt-deal
> 
> The new deal would be a record



I doubt it happens if the team doesn't make a big turnaround before the contract is up.


----------



## VEGASKING

I know nothing about the guy and maybe he is some Trumpesque deal making genius but I'm sure there are many more people out there that could do the same job Woodward is doing.


----------



## Chimaera

I think they'll be able to tout it as the biggest deal or a record deal. But most of it will be tied into performance kickers that they won't hit. 

You can say it's a 400 million contract, but that would have money based upon finishing in the top 4, winning the league, playing in the CL, winning the CL etc.


----------



## The Abusement Park

VEGASKING said:


> I know nothing about the guy and maybe he is some Trumpesque deal making genius but I'm sure there are many more people out there that could do the same job Woodward is doing.




I’ve said this a lot, but when it comes to making money no one is better than Woodward. He’s incredible at generating revenue. But the man is a football Pejorative Slur and is a horrible manager of people.


----------



## phisherman

The Abusement Park said:


> I’ve said this a lot, but when it comes to making money no one is better than Woodward. He’s incredible at generating revenue. But the man is a football ****** and is a horrible manager of people.




Why can't they just have him deal with the business side only?


----------



## hatterson

phisherman said:


> Why can't they just have him deal with the business side only?




United fans have been wanting this for a few years.


----------



## The Abusement Park

phisherman said:


> Why can't they just have him deal with the business side only?




f*** if I know. It'd be very ideal to have a DOF work with him, but I'm sure his ego wouldn't allow it.


----------



## Savant

phisherman said:


> Why can't they just have him deal with the business side only?



That’s also what LFC fans said about Ian Ayre.


----------



## Chimaera

Too many chefs in the kitchen. Also a bit hard to take away power and keep a guy.


----------



## Jussi

OGS confirmed De Gea and Pogba out this week, AWB and Martial could play.


----------



## Live in the Now

The bus will be parked from kickoff then. Can't see them doing anything going forward.


----------



## Savant

Jussi said:


> OGS confirmed De Gea and Pogba out this week, AWB and Martial could play.



Not going to believe that until I see the team sheet


----------



## Jussi

Savant said:


> Not going to believe that until I see the team sheet




De Gea's going to get scans on the abductor and Pogba's been walking with a protective boot so they're definitely out.


----------



## Savant

Jussi said:


> De Gea's going to get scans on the abductor and Pogba's been walking with a protective boot so they're definitely out.



And I’ll believe it when I see the team sheet


----------



## Chimaera

Yeah looks a touch fishy to me, but even so I don’t know doesn’t then to attack a ton


----------



## Jussi

Chimaera said:


> Yeah looks a touch fishy to me, but even so *I don’t know doesn’t then to attack a ton*


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

LFC fans are getting paranoid at this point.


----------



## GeorgeLeafer12

Just for sake of things, scenario that takes Manchester United to the last place in the Prem in just 2 matches.

Match week 9 : Liverpool W over Man Utd (away), Everton W over West Ham (home), Aston Villa & Brighton draw,
Southampton W over Wolverhampton (away), Newcastle W over Chelsea (away), these results would put Man Utd to 18th place,
to relegation zone + Norwich W over Bournemouth (away) Watford takes first W of the season over Tottenham (away)

Match week 10: Norwich W over Man Utd (home), Watford W over Bournemouth (home), results of these two matches
would put Man Utd to the last place in the Prem​


----------



## hatterson

OGS ruling out a player who has missed 5 or so games and hasn’t played at 100% in two months and a player who limped off injured in a mid week match is suddenly some giant 43736-D chess move by him to trip up Klopp.

That’s some galaxy brain take there.


----------



## Chimaera

Jussi said:


>



Fat fingers on mobile. Who knows. Some of the corrections iphone seems to make after the upgrade are all over the place. 

I imagine it had to do with him not attacking anyway, and with those players out, it will only reinforce that setup.


----------



## Jussi

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> LFC fans are getting paranoid at this point.




Getting?


----------



## The Abusement Park

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> LFC fans are getting paranoid at this point.




Even if both of them could play there’s no reason to be paranoid.


----------



## SJSharks72

GeorgeLeafer12 said:


> Just for sake of things, scenario that takes Manchester United to the last place in the Prem in just 2 matches.
> 
> Match week 9 : Liverpool W over Man Utd (away), Everton W over West Ham (home), Aston Villa & Brighton draw,
> Southampton W over Wolverhampton (away), Newcastle W over Chelsea (away), these results would put Man Utd to 18th place,
> to relegation zone + Norwich W over Bournemouth (away) Watford takes first W of the season over Tottenham (away)
> 
> Match week 10: Norwich W over Man Utd (home), Watford W over Bournemouth (home), results of these two matches
> would put Man Utd to the last place in the Prem​



For someone that isn’t a fan of United, you sure do talk about them a lot and put a lot of thought into their scenarios.


----------



## Savant

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> LFC fans are getting paranoid at this point.



I’m just saying. If there is a miraculous recovery don’t be surprised. I just hate the media narrative that LFC is automatically going to roll them, and that no one from Utd would get into the LFC XI. LFC have not been good at Old Trafford, even under Klopp. Form goes out the window in rivalry games.


----------



## YNWA14

I always enjoy when one person says something about a match and all of a sudden 'LFC fans are paranoid'.


Savant said:


> I’m just saying. If there is a miraculous recovery don’t be surprised. I just hate the media narrative that LFC is automatically going to roll them, and that no one from Utd would get into the LFC XI. LFC have not been good at Old Trafford, even under Klopp. Form goes out the window in rivalry games.



There's no reason to fear United here. Liverpool are, rightfully, big favourites. It would be a massive underperformance to not come out of this with 3 points, though I do feel like United will be up for the match -- the gulf in quality and coaching is massive.


----------



## Savant

YNWA14 said:


> I always enjoy when one person says something about a match and all of a sudden 'LFC fans are paranoid'.
> 
> There's no reason to fear United here. Liverpool are, rightfully, big favourites. It would be a massive underperformance to not come out of this with 3 points, though I do feel like United will be up for the match -- the gulf in quality and coaching is massive.



I don’t fear them. Just don’t like the narrative that it’s going to be a cakewalk. I only fear teams not attacking Man City with more than one forward at a time. Spooky.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Savant said:


> I’m just saying. If there is a miraculous recovery don’t be surprised. I just hate the media narrative that LFC is automatically going to roll them, and that no one from Utd would get into the LFC XI. LFC have not been good at Old Trafford, even under Klopp. Form goes out the window in rivalry games.



Well that's two different things, OGS and United gain no advantage by calming their players are hurt. It's not like they're going to appear at Old trafford Undertaker style and Klopp soils himself. 

LFC should win they're the favourites and are the far far better team. Whether they show it or not is beside the point really. One player would get into this LFC team and that is Pogba. That's a fact and to claim otherwise is small team mentality.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Aren't we all inured to Savant's shtick at this point?


----------



## Savant

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Well that's two different things, OGS and United gain no advantage by calming their players are hurt. It's not like they're going to appear at Old trafford Undertaker style and Klopp soils himself.
> 
> LFC should win they're the favourites and are the far far better team. Whether they show it or not is beside the point really. One player would get into this LFC team and that is Pogba. That's a fact and to claim otherwise is small team mentality.






Jersey Fresh said:


> Aren't we all inured to Savant's shtick at this point?



I’m not disagreeing with any of this. All I said is I don’t like the media coverage. It’s been really disrespectful to United. Giving them a lot of bulletin board material. Not saying it will matter. I think Liverpool will take three but old Trafford is never an easy fixture. Media are treating it like it is.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

If you're not disagreeing with anything that has been said why did you post that your in disbelief at united injuries? Doesn't make too much sense.


----------



## Savant

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> If you're not disagreeing with anything that has been said why did you post that your in disbelief at united injuries? Doesn't make too much sense.



Ferguson used to pull that stuff all the time. I don’t think De Gea will play but it wouldn’t surprised me if they pulled a Mr. Miyagi on him. Same with Pogba, who is more likely that De Gea, but you never know. It’s not exactly Uncommon for teams to be disingenuous with their injury reporting


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Savant said:


> Ferguson used to pull that stuff all the time. I don’t think De Gea will play but it wouldn’t surprised me if they pulled a Mr. Miyagi on him. Same with Pogba, who is more likely that De Gea, but you never know. It’s not exactly Uncommon for teams to be disingenuous with their injury reporting



Ferguson hasn't been their coach for years. Maybe it is uncommon for teams to lie but form the LFC perspective the game plan shouldn't change so, it makes no difference to them. That's the position LFC are in they're good enough to just worry about playing their own game. Regardless of who's in front of them.


----------



## Chimaera

There's a distinct advantage to keeping them off the sheet until they can play. Any chance that they could do so would help prevent Liverpool preparing for the particular players. I don't think OGS is dishonest in this situation, but it wouldn't be the first (and it won't be the last) time a club tried to be fuzzy with reports to get an advantage. I think it's happening on the other side with Salah. I think there's a good shot he doesn't play start if they're saying he's on track. 

I do think the clarity of saying "they're out" means they're most likely out. If they had a shot, he might have said something closer to I'm not sure we will have to evaluate them in practice this week or it might be a bit too soon.

I kinda wonder if the EPL has any medical requirements to consider in this situation. In some other sports leagues, they can't be funny with injury lists.


----------



## Savant

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Ferguson hasn't been their coach for years. Maybe it is uncommon for teams to lie but form the LFC perspective the game plan shouldn't change so, it makes no difference to them. That's the position LFC are in they're good enough to just worry about playing their own game. Regardless of who's in front of them.



Sure. I agree with most of this, but I do think gamesmanship exists.


----------



## These Are The Days

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> LFC fans are getting paranoid at this point.




Uhhhh something something something "can't hear you from all the way up here on our perch" something something something "it's so high it's making us paranoid" something something something 6 times... 


idk you make a good point lol


----------



## Savant

Joel Matip signs new long-term Liverpool contract


----------



## Savant

Savant said:


> Joel Matip signs new long-term Liverpool contract


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Savant said:


> Joel Matip signs new long-term Liverpool contract




Not buying it we'll see in 5 years... Big game coming up this seems fishy.


----------



## Burner Account




----------



## Savant

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Not buying it we'll see in 5 years... Big game coming up this seems fishy.



Swing and a miss. Not even close to equal situations.

EDIT: also this


----------



## Jussi

Mason Greenwood signs extension until 2023.


----------



## YNWA14

Not really sure where else to put this, and haven't been following it so I don't know if it's going anywhere:

A soccer agent claims he once gave former Manchester United boss Sir Alex Ferguson a $39,000 Rolex in return for fixing a match


----------



## YNWA14

Ole Gunnar Solskjaer makes sly dig at Liverpool: 'It will not take Manchester United 30 years to win another title'



> “I am sure we will bounce back and win the league,” said Solskjaer, with a twinkle in his eye. “And I am sure it won’t be 30 years until the next Premier League that we do win.”




I hope they let OGS have every opportunity to prove that statement true.


----------



## Savant

YNWA14 said:


> Ole Gunnar Solskjaer makes sly dig at Liverpool: 'It will not take Manchester United 30 years to win another title'
> 
> 
> 
> I hope they let OGS have every opportunity to prove that statement true.



Are we sure it won’t take 30 years?


----------



## Live in the Now

Quite a thing to say for a manager that shouldn't even have a job. He might want to try to be within 30 points of Liverpool before making such a statement.


----------



## Jussi

I see Liverpool fans talking again about their favorite subject: Manchester United.


----------



## Live in the Now

Jussi said:


> I see Liverpool fans talking again about their favorite subject: Manchester United.




Nope, our favorite subject is the six time and current Champions of Europe.

But when you have a relegation quality manager (in fact the only prize he has won as a manager in England is being relegated) making comments like that about your team, you do have to laugh at them.


----------



## The Abusement Park

YNWA14 said:


> Ole Gunnar Solskjaer makes sly dig at Liverpool: 'It will not take Manchester United 30 years to win another title'
> 
> 
> 
> I hope they let OGS have every opportunity to prove that statement true.




Of course it won't take 30 years for us to win a title, don't be ridiculous. We'll win the Championship next season


----------



## Savant

Jussi said:


> I see Liverpool fans talking again about their favorite subject: Manchester United.



After the game tomorrow they will go back into their current irrelevance to Liverpool. Enjoy true attention while you can. Get back into the title picture and champions league and I will care again.

Liverpool was there when we weren’t challenging, where this was the most important fixture, but it’s not the most important game for them any more. It’s the reverse for Utd now. But of course that makes them dangerous today, especially at home


----------



## Savant

Stay classy Chelsea


----------



## Blender

Savant said:


> Stay classy Chelsea




"Chelsea Supporters Trust" is a fan organization, it's not run by the club. Hopefully their chairman resigns for inserting his homophobic personal beliefs into his job in the supporters trust.

Chelsea has some terrible supporters, but they aren't the only club with this problem in England or Europe.


----------



## Savant

Blender said:


> "Chelsea Supporters Trust" is a fan organization, it's not run by the club. Hopefully their chairman resigns for inserting his homophobic personal beliefs into his job in the supporters trust.
> 
> Chelsea has some terrible supporters, but they aren't the only club with this problem in England or Europe.



This is a group that obviously has the goal of being affiliated with the official Chelsea Football Club; according to their webpage their long term goal is to get a board seat. 

I am not going to say it represents the majority of the fan base, but if a group like SOS did something like this, it would be admonished. Groups like these represent the team. Official or not, (especially if they are trying for official status). This is disgusting.


----------



## phisherman

A Liverpool fan commenting on another team's fan base behaviour.


----------



## Savant

phisherman said:


> A Liverpool fan commenting on another team's fan base behaviour.



Would you care to expand on this?

Liverpool was the first PL club to represent itself at a British LGBT event. Linked article is from almost ten years ago. 

Liverpool to be first Premier League club represented at official LGBT event | Liverpool | The Guardian

Their supporters groups are not advocating homophobic behavior


----------



## Cassano

A small minority of Liverpool fans also led to the Heysel disaster. It is not fair to represent the whole fan-base based on the actions of a few individuals.


----------



## Savant

Cassano said:


> A small minority of Liverpool fans also led to the Heysel disaster. It is not fair to represent the whole fan-base based on the actions of a few individuals.



That is not remotely equivalent.

This is a fan organization, whose stated goal of their existence is to represent the club openly discriminating against a group of people.


----------



## Blender

Savant said:


> That is not remotely equivalent.
> 
> This is a fan organization, whose stated goal of their existence is to represent the club openly discriminating against a group of people.



Is that an official platform of the fan organization? Considering they issued a statement today condemning the comments I would say no, but that isn't going to stop you from trying to paint every Chelsea fan and the club with this brush.


----------



## Savant

Blender said:


> Is that an official platform of the fan organization? Considering they issued a statement today condemning the comments I would say no, but that isn't going to stop you from trying to paint every Chelsea fan and the club with this brush.



When have I done this?


----------



## Blender

Savant said:


> When have I done this?



You compared it to SOS doing something like this as if this was the position of the Chelsea Supporters Trust, rather than the comments of an individual. Then said that the group represents the team, so it reflects badly on them as well.



> if a group like SOS did something like this, it would be admonished. Groups like these represent the team.


----------



## phisherman

Blender said:


> You compared it to SOS doing something like this as if this was the position of the Chelsea Supporters Trust, rather than the comments of an individual. Then said that the group represents the team, so it reflects badly on them as well.




His first comment was, "Stay classy Chelsea."


----------



## Savant

Blender said:


> You compared it to SOS doing something like this as if this was the position of the Chelsea Supporters Trust, rather than the comments of an individual. Then said that the group represents the team, so it reflects badly on them as well.



If the CO-CHAIR of the group is saying it, it represents the group. It is a comment from leadership. If a Co-Chair of a Fortune 500 company said something similar, the board would demand their resignation for that reason. So yes, I stand by that.


----------



## Savant

phisherman said:


> His first comment was, "Stay classy Chelsea."



Because it came from a Chelsea fan group that is trying to directly affiliate themselves with their football club. Do you think I just picked a team name out of a hat?


----------



## Blender

Savant said:


> If the CO-CHAIR of the group is saying it, it represents the group. It is a comment from leadership. If a Co-Chair of a Fortune 500 company said something similar, the board would demand their resignation for that reason. So yes, I stand by that.



Again, they put out a statement condemning the comments from the article, saying how they don't represent CST, and that they are investigating further. Since this literally came out a few hours ago, let's give it a bit of time before we jump to conclusions on whether this co-chair will be gone or not. If they do nothing about it and let this guy continue to let his personal bigotry impact the group, I'll happily join in on condemning them.



> With regard to the article published today on The Athletic website the CST have issued the following statement.
> “The Chelsea Supporters’ Trust has a proud history of representing all Chelsea supporters, irrespective of their race, religion or sexual identity. The comments in question, which were expressed by a board member in a private communication, do not represent the position of the Chelsea Supporters’ Trust and the board does not condone them.
> “The board operates on the principle of collective responsibility. Board members are expected to demonstrate a high standard of personal conduct. This includes putting aside personal opinions in order to represent the views of the Trust’s membership, and Chelsea supporters more generally.The Chelsea Supporters’ Trust will work with external partners, such as the Football Supporters Association, to consider whether further action is appropriate.”


----------



## Savant

Blender said:


> Again, they put out a statement condemning the comments from the article, saying how they don't represent CST, and that they are investigating further. Since this literally came out a few hours ago, let's give it a bit of time before we jump to conclusions on whether this co-chair will be gone or not. If they do nothing about it and let this guy continue to let his personal bigotry impact the group, I'll happily join in on condemning them.



And that is fair too. I definitely posted before I saw the statement, and it’s certainly possible I posted before the statement came out. I think the guy should have been immeadiately removed, but this is also an issue that I care a lot about. I don’t have any reason to believe any of the Chelsea fans on here are of the same viewpoint as that guy but it is very disappointing to see stuff like this in 2019


----------



## Cassano

Is VdV spitting Faxx or is he too harsh on Maguire here?


----------



## Blender

Cassano said:


> Is VdV spitting Faxx or is he too harsh on Maguire here?




Too hard. United definitely overpaid, everyone knows that, but he's a good defender and his statement is outlandish. Especially after a 1-1 game against Liverpool where Maguire defended very well.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

If he's right which he isn't then why isn't he a scout or manager? Why is he on TV talking his ass off? Maguire is overpaid by at least double but the guy is clearly one of the better defenders in the EPL.


----------



## YNWA14

I don't think Maguire is one of the better defenders in the EPL (depending on what you consider one of the better), but he's obviously not a sunday league player.


----------



## bleedblue1223

I just find it rich that anyone characterizes an entire fanbase for the actions of a minority. Especially when issues of racism in games or violence among supporters is so widespread throughout all fanbases and countries. How many times do we here stories about monkey chants directed at black players. You are missing the point if you are making it about specific fanbases, it's bigger than fans and club loyalty. You are naive if you think there is a club out there that doesn't have supporters that are racist, anti-LGBTQ, or whatever else.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Cassano said:


> Is VdV spitting Faxx or is he too harsh on Maguire here?





Is Maguire worth his price tag? Hell no.

But to think that Maguire is a Sunday league player is just an ignorant take.


----------



## hatterson

He's a top 10 defender in the PL, with a shout at top 5 if he can stay consistently at his peak. Clearly not worth the price tag, but he's also much better than a replacement level player.


----------



## Savant

bleedblue1223 said:


> I just find it rich that anyone characterizes an entire fanbase for the actions of a minority. Especially when issues of racism in games or violence among supporters is so widespread throughout all fanbases and countries. How many times do we here stories about monkey chants directed at black players. You are missing the point if you are making it about specific fanbases, it's bigger than fans and club loyalty. You are naive if you think there is a club out there that doesn't have supporters that are racist, anti-LGBTQ, or whatever else.



This isn’t about a specific fan base. This is about a specific instance. It’s equally deplorable if any team had done it. When the Chairman of a Fan Group is telling it’s members not to display Rainbow Laces banners in a fan stand unless they also display a “Proud of Being A White English Heterosexual” banner - this is disgusting. And this is from (presumably elected) leadership. The Chelsea Pride group said their piece to admonish this, and there is still time to see if something is done about this. This isn’t characterizing an entire fan base by any means. But this is a reported example of leadership of a very visible supporters group of a very visible club being openly homophobic and spreading that message to the members of that group. That is disgusting.


----------



## Blender

hatterson said:


> He's a top 10 defender in the PL, with a shout at top 5 if he can stay consistently at his peak. Clearly not worth the price tag, but he's also much better than a replacement level player.



Defensively he was top 5 last year, overall top 10 probably. For England he was even better.

That he's English and still has 7-8 years of his prime ahead of him is why the price tag was so high. I don't expect Leicester will get that much if they have to sell Soyuncu or Ricardo for example, despite both being better players right now.


----------



## Chimaera

Having United over a barrel with the fear of City buying him also didn't hurt.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Savant said:


> This isn’t about a specific fan base. This is about a specific instance. It’s equally deplorable if any team had done it. When the Chairman of a Fan Group is telling it’s members not to display Rainbow Laces banners in a fan stand unless they also display a “Proud of Being A White English Heterosexual” banner - this is disgusting. And this is from (presumably elected) leadership. The Chelsea Pride group said their piece to admonish this, and there is still time to see if something is done about this. This isn’t characterizing an entire fan base by any means. But this is a reported example of leadership of a very visible supporters group of a very visible club being openly homophobic and spreading that message to the members of that group. That is disgusting.



Then don't say, "stay classy Chelsea". I'm guessing that's not how you intended it and I wasn't directing it completely at you. I'm just saying we need to rethink how we as the soccer/football community look and handle these issues. I'm tired of the say no to racism talk being so hollow. I'm not in the Euro area, so I can't really speak on what the culture is like at the games. In the States, you might here some racist individuals directed at a player, but I've never personally seen it when I'm at games and you don't see the stories like you do from the Euro soccer games. 

More needs to be done or something different needs to happen, I know all of us agree on that.


----------



## Savant

bleedblue1223 said:


> Then don't say, "stay classy Chelsea". I'm guessing that's not how you intended it and I wasn't directing it completely at you. I'm just saying we need to rethink how we as the soccer/football community look and handle these issues. I'm tired of the say no to racism talk being so hollow. I'm not in the Euro area, so I can't really speak on what the culture is like at the games. In the States, you might here some racist individuals directed at a player, but I've never personally seen it when I'm at games and you don't see the stories like you do from the Euro soccer games.
> 
> More needs to be done or something different needs to happen, I know all of us agree on that.



I said stay classy Chelsea because it is a story about a Chelsea fan group. I didn’t pick a random club. And I stayed away from ‘Chelsea fans’ because I didn’t want to generalize the group. I did not intend for it to be taken that way. I agree with everything else


----------



## bleedblue1223

Savant said:


> I said stay classy Chelsea because it is a story about a Chelsea fan group. I didn’t pick a random club. And I stayed away from ‘Chelsea fans’ because I didn’t want to generalize the group. I did not intend for it to be taken that way. I agree with everything else



I'm sure you can see how it was misinterpreted, but if that's all it was no big deal. No reasonable person supports any of that stuff and we can all agree on that.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Savant said:


> That is not remotely equivalent.
> 
> This is a fan organization, whose stated goal of their existence is to represent the club openly discriminating against a group of people.




Indeed, people died at Heysel. Definitely not equivalent to one bloke with some misguided views.


----------



## Rob

Tough loss for Arsenal today @ Sheffield United. Emery says they didn’t deserve to lose though.


----------



## hatterson

Rob said:


> Tough loss for Arsenal today @ Sheffield United. Emery says they didn’t deserve to lose though.




lol, why not? They didn't create anything of danger outside of Pepe's chance.

I guess you could argue they deserved a draw versus a loss, but it's a pretty dumb point for a coach to make in a press conference.


----------



## PansCyans




----------



## maclean

bleedblue1223 said:


> I just find it rich that anyone characterizes an entire fanbase for the actions of a minority. Especially when issues of racism in games or violence among supporters is so widespread throughout all fanbases and countries. How many times do we here stories about monkey chants directed at black players. You are missing the point if you are making it about specific fanbases, it's bigger than fans and club loyalty. You are naive if you think there is a club out there that doesn't have supporters that are racist, anti-LGBTQ, or whatever else.




Of course all fanbases are diverse, but certainly some clubs have certain tendencies and others different ones. You can like it or not, but every situation of an individual fan acting in a certain way helps inform the general perception of a team. 

I can speak to the teams in Prague, Sparta has a reputation for having a lot of racists, though as the most popular team in the country they naturally have all kinds of fans, but if you're going to a game are you going to go in the supporter's section? Not if you don't want to be hanging out with hardcore hooligans. Slavia for whatever reason has a bit more of a neutral reputation and lots of people who consider themselves intellectuals prefer it, but at the end of the day they have a huge contingent of neo-Nazis, in my view they are just as racist as Sparta, but they are not viewed the same, and it's largely because of high-profile things that Sparta fans have done, the trouble they've got in. It is also the fact that when Slavia fans do racist things, the club condemns it more convincingly, whereas with Sparta you can tell the club whatever it says is actually weaker than its hardcore fans.

My local side Bohemians is the only club in the Czech Republic to largely profile as all-around tolerant and anti-racist but we also have racist fans, and in fact great numbers of fans who actually take offence at the club being painted as "leftist", appealing to "leaving politics out of football". They are bothered by the club's anti-racist profile the same way anti-racist fans are bothered by racism in the ranks of their respective fanbase.

So of course all fanbases have all kinds of people, but what is naive is thinking they don't also have a profile, as unfair as it can seem to the many people who don't agree with it.


----------



## Jussi

Carragher apologizes to Evra for defending Suarez:



Liverpool fans on this site...?


----------



## Chimaera

In which sense? 

Do you want us to apologize for Suarez? He doesn't play for us, hasn't for a while now, and I don't excuse racism now or then. But I also know that only really two players know what was exactly said. If Evra feels it was a slur, then, that's his right to feel so, and I agree with Suarez having served punishment for that incident. The club got egg on their faces supporting him prior to the hearing, and that's been handled. 

However, what I do also know is Evra is a clown. He kicked a freaking spectator. He's fought a groundsman. Do you want to apologize for him? He's certainly no saint. It's fine that Carra wants to apologize to Evra. That's whatever it is. I'm not sure how it has anything to do with us. 

Maybe United fans should apologize for the idiot that was tossed out of Old Trafford Sunday.


----------



## YNWA14




----------



## hatterson

I'd be interested to have someone do an actual review for dives, not just bookings.

There's definitely many times over the last year and a half that players have dived and not been booked, and yesterday wasn't the only time a play was booked for diving despite it not being a dive.

Would probably also have to separate things like embellishment (feeling contact and making sure the ref knows it happened by being overly dramatic) and actual dives.


----------



## bleedblue1223

maclean said:


> Of course all fanbases are diverse, but certainly some clubs have certain tendencies and others different ones. You can like it or not, but every situation of an individual fan acting in a certain way helps inform the general perception of a team.
> 
> I can speak to the teams in Prague, Sparta has a reputation for having a lot of racists, though as the most popular team in the country they naturally have all kinds of fans, but if you're going to a game are you going to go in the supporter's section? Not if you don't want to be hanging out with hardcore hooligans. Slavia for whatever reason has a bit more of a neutral reputation and lots of people who consider themselves intellectuals prefer it, but at the end of the day they have a huge contingent of neo-Nazis, in my view they are just as racist as Sparta, but they are not viewed the same, and it's largely because of high-profile things that Sparta fans have done, the trouble they've got in. It is also the fact that when Slavia fans do racist things, the club condemns it more convincingly, whereas with Sparta you can tell the club whatever it says is actually weaker than its hardcore fans.
> 
> My local side Bohemians is the only club in the Czech Republic to largely profile as all-around tolerant and anti-racist but we also have racist fans, and in fact great numbers of fans who actually take offence at the club being painted as "leftist", appealing to "leaving politics out of football". They are bothered by the club's anti-racist profile the same way anti-racist fans are bothered by racism in the ranks of their respective fanbase.
> 
> So of course all fanbases have all kinds of people, but what is naive is thinking they don't also have a profile, as unfair as it can seem to the many people who don't agree with it.




Maybe for me the difference is I just can't fully understand the fandom in countries in Europe that are much more homogeneous. I just don't have those types of experiences over here. Usually it's just drunk fans heckling other fans just because they support another team. There doesn't tend to be big racist chants or stuff, but I'm not denying that small stuff happens directed at players from time to time.


----------



## Jussi

YNWA14 said:


>





Mightiest divers.


----------



## Jussi

Chimaera said:


> In which sense?
> 
> Do you want us to apologize for Suarez?




Well several of you went to rather extreme lengths to defend him.


----------



## Chimaera

Jussi said:


> Well several of you went to rather extreme lengths to defend him.




The only defense I've ever given is that some words have different context and connotations in different places. Beyond that, it's hard to do a he said she said situation on a verbal incident. Suarez was rightly punished, and it's over at this point. 

Suarez is a pretty reprehensible person on the pitch, having done plenty of stupid stuff.


I mean, I know what you're picking at. But there are plenty of clowns who have suited up for United (Evra being one of them) who you could be asked to defend.


----------



## Stray Wasp

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Indeed, people died at Heysel. Definitely not equivalent to one bloke with some misguided views.




This is true.

Mind, I'm also bound to point out that Heysel was in May 1985, which means that even if we are to believe that Liverpudlians come into the world fully-formed and foaming at the mouth to do Italians harm, that tragedy was nothing whatsoever to do with any fan of the club under the age of 34.

Realistically, the Liverpool fans involved in the fatal charge are unlikely to be under 50 years of age now.

While we're on the subject of Chelsea and racism, here's a story of the club issuing life bans to racists. Three Chelsea fans face lifetime bans for racially abusing a fellow supporter


----------



## S E P H

YNWA14 said:


>




Alexis has at least 90% of those.


----------



## YNWA14

S E P H said:


> Alexis has at least 90% of those.



A real cornerstone of the recent Arsenal teams that lad has been.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Stray Wasp said:


> This is true.
> 
> Mind, I'm also bound to point out that Heysel was in May 1985, which means that even if we are to believe that Liverpudlians come into the world fully-formed and foaming at the mouth to do Italians harm, that tragedy was nothing whatsoever to do with any fan of the club under the age of 34.
> 
> Realistically, the Liverpool fans involved in the fatal charge are unlikely to be under 50 years of age now.
> 
> While we're on the subject of Chelsea and racism, here's a story of the club issuing life bans to racists. Three Chelsea fans face lifetime bans for racially abusing a fellow supporter




At this point of time Chelsea and Liverpool are both massive corporate entities with global brands and supporters of all stripes. Any fan reputation going back to the 70s and 80s should mostly be disregarded. Liverpool fans are no more a rampaging bunch of thieving estate kids than Chelsea are a bunch of National Front skinheads.


----------



## Savant

Jussi said:


> Well several of you went to rather extreme lengths to defend him.



Carragher summed it up better than I could. It was a mistake. It was wrong and it’s obviously easier to say with the benefit of hindsight. Was trying to stand up for a player but it was like seeing the forest instead of the trees


----------



## maclean

bleedblue1223 said:


> Maybe for me the difference is I just can't fully understand the fandom in countries in Europe that are much more homogeneous. I just don't have those types of experiences over here. Usually it's just drunk fans heckling other fans just because they support another team. There doesn't tend to be big racist chants or stuff, but I'm not denying that small stuff happens directed at players from time to time.




Certainly. There really isn't much of an analogue for it in North American sports. In part perhaps because the nation itself is too young/diverse/transient (and these days even affluent), but also I would say it's due to the dominance of "major league" teams, which by their nature encompass a quite large geographical (and thus demographic) area. In Europe clubs began just as clubs formed so people could play and leagues emerged more organically, which remains enshrined in the promotion system, meaning clubs are tied more closely to their home neighbourhood, their history and their fans, without as much of the commercial bleaching prevalent in NA sports, though certainly the latter trend is there, particularly for the most commercial teams and the EPL in general.


----------



## Savant

Judge rules in favor of Nike over New Balance. Liverpool to wear Nike starting next season


----------



## Chimaera

There’s some crazy stuff in that hearing. NB was trying to create stores out of thin air, arguing they could sell kits at stores who were shoe only, saying they could match Nike’s reach and marketing. 

Admittedly, it’s the rich getting richer, but NB can’t really match the store space and distribution alone that Nike can. Liverpool are taking less from Nike with the hope that the marketing and distribution will up sales to make more on the backend. 

I’m happy because Nike stores near me carry soccer stuff. NB stores really only carry shoes and a bit of running gear. Sure, I can get stuff on the internet, but being a fellow of fluctuating weight, being able to try stuff on is sometimes useful when it often runs all over the place in sizes. I’ve spent significant coin on training wear stuff from LFC only to have it come in sizing for a much smaller person.


----------



## Chimaera

Oh, the particulars are 30 million pound, per, over five years. Which is low. But Nike is offering 20% of all LFC merchandise, which should be much higher than anything NB could offer. The suggestion is it could be worth closer to 70+ per season, if not higher if a kit does well or they go on another CL run and move more gear.

Nike has also spent a significant chunk in prepping the campaign to help push LFC gear. The talk is using “influencers” to help get it rolling. That’s whatever, but I’ll be interested to see it.


----------



## Burner Account

I've also heard that New Balance is very difficult for third-party retailers to get.


----------



## YNWA14

I'm not really happy about it. NB actually had some really nice kits and was with us when we weren't super successful and were willing to match the kit deal, now we'll get lame cookie-cutter kits from a company that is pretty questionable to begin with.

Also interesting:


> A strange part of the case emerged when it appeared Liverpool were unaware of a term in the “long-form” Nike offer which stated minimum distribution promised fell away if the club failed to qualify for the Champions League group stages.
> 
> Mr Hogan says this has not been discussed at all with Nike.
> 
> Mr Oudkerk: “This is a contract worth hundreds of millions of pounds to you, you spent months negotiating it, and you are saying you have not even bothered to look at it, is that your evidence?
> 
> BH: “I don’t agree with that...that was not in the short form agreement and that has not been discussed at all.”


----------



## Chimaera

I mean, their main kit is pretty simple. Red. Don't butcher it. Maybe make it look like one of the past kits. 

I could really care less what it ultimately looks like, as long as the check clears. NB stuff is harder to get, and they've had supply issues meeting demand of the main kit. Heck, this years is on major back order for the Keeper black, and the red home kit.


----------



## Burner Account

Chimaera said:


> I mean, their main kit is pretty simple. Red. Don't butcher it. Maybe make it look like one of the past kits.
> 
> I could really care less what it ultimately looks like, as long as the check clears. NB stuff is harder to get, and they've had supply issues meeting demand of the main kit. Heck, this years is on major back order for the Keeper black, and the red home kit.



This. It _seems_ New Balance completely bungled supply this year. Not a great note to end on.

Now, let's sort out a Nike-sponsored summer signing to go with it.


----------



## robertmac43

Michael Cox: Midfield 'pivots' of the big six are...

Solid article on each of the top-6's midfield pivots and how they can be used to help define each team.


----------



## Blender

robertmac43 said:


> Michael Cox: Midfield 'pivots' of the big six are...
> 
> Solid article on each of the top-6's midfield pivots and how they can be used to help define each team.



I don't subscribe, but what does it say about Jorginho?

Debatable that he is even playing as a "pivot" this season with how mobile he has been. Closer to a box-to-box midfielder so far.


----------



## KJS14

YNWA14 said:


>







Jussi said:


> Mightiest divers.




All this tells me is that the other top teams get awarded more penalties for their dives, whereas Arsenal is getting booked. Not to mention they used an image of a clear non-dive in the tweet.


----------



## Epictetus

Good for Liverpool from a financial perspective, but lame from a design perspective. Nike cares more about their own brand being identifiable than the unique features any club possesses. Will have the Nike logo in the top right, just like every other team they have control over.


----------



## Savant

Epictetus said:


> Good for Liverpool from a financial perspective, but lame from a design perspective. Nike cares more about their own brand being identifiable than the unique features any club possesses. Will have the Nike logo in the top right, just like every other team they have control over.



Don’t really have a problem with this. LFC kits look better simple. 

Also Inter Milan is Nike and by far they have the best kit range of ANY team this season, so it is not hopeless. All it means to me is I am more likely to get like a track jacket.


----------



## Savant

kyle evs48 said:


> This. It _seems_ New Balance completely bungled supply this year. Not a great note to end on.



Bungled it every year. Always ran out of stock.


----------



## Chimaera

If we are honest, I think LFC know what they’re doing and know what sells. I don’t think they’ll screw up the home kit. It might not always look amazing, but they have enough sense to push the brand (that’s their ultimate goal). That means recognizability and tradition more so than new. Away kit? Could care less. It could be a trash bag as long as the check clears.


----------



## GeorgeLeafer12

Why are you all talking about Liverpool's kit?????. Leicester trashed the Saints 9-0, away prem record, tying the prem record.


----------



## SJSharks72

GeorgeLeafer12 said:


> Why are you all talking about Liverpool's kit?????. Leicester trashed the Saints 9-0, away prem record, tying the prem record.



Because that’s in the PL match day thread....


----------



## Kshahdoo

Pulishic scored his first hatty in the EPL.


----------



## robertmac43

All I'm saying is Brighton is currently above Man U...


----------



## hatterson

robertmac43 said:


> All I'm saying is Brighton is currently above Man U...




The way things have looked, you may not need the “currently” clarifier on there...


----------



## Jussi

hatterson said:


> The way things have looked, you may not need the “currently” clarifier on there...




Well order restored...

Pogba's likely out until December. May play at Sheffield on the 24th.


----------



## robertmac43

'It means we can all come together, we’ve never been as a...

Awesome story coming out of City! Soccer is for all !


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

robertmac43 said:


> 'It means we can all come together, we’ve never been as a...
> 
> Awesome story coming out of City! Soccer is for all !



Good start now do it for Yemeni children...


----------



## robertmac43

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Good start now do it for Yemeni children...




Let's take things one step at a time...


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

robertmac43 said:


> Let's take things one step at a time...



Like their end of their use of slavery?


----------



## S E P H

Sounds like the team wants Xhaka to apologise for his tantrum, has been given some time off (not in practising with XI team), and Oezil has taken his place.


----------



## YNWA14

Pretty impressive.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

S E P H said:


> Sounds like the team wants Xhaka to apologise for his tantrum, has been given some time off (not in practising with XI team), and Oezil has taken his place.




f*** that tbh, team should be in solidarity with Xhaka


----------



## AB13

f***. Mourinho coming to Arsenal is a real possiblity. At least he is better than Unai Emery, Emery has been so horrible he has Mourinho look like a brilliant appointment. Gone are the days of beautiful, attractive Wengerball, but if José could create a winning mentality at the club, I guess I would take him.


----------



## S E P H

My faith of being a Gooner fan would be legitimately tested if they hired a scumbag such as Mourinho as manager.



Wee Baby Seamus said:


> **** that tbh, team should be in solidarity with Xhaka



Teammates did visit him at his home after the game, but it seems that Emery/coaching staff are the ones who want Xhaka to apologise to the fans. Also I think there are pics that Torreira was shedding a tear or two at the fans treatment of him and Bellerin has been the most vocal defendant of Xhaka.

I mean that's all good, but lets be honest and say he should've never ever been captain like ever, a bad decision always ends up with dire consequences and this is one of those. Lacazette is more of a captain than he is.


----------



## YNWA14

Sounds like the team are backing Xhaka to remain captain after the latest incident. Should keep things interesting.


----------



## VEGASKING

Xhaka to the bench. Time to start booing Emery and maybe he can be benched next.


----------



## hatterson

Lots of rumors that Saudis, specifically MbS, are buying United for around 4 billion pounds.

I absolutely hate the idea and may legitimately stop being a fan if it’s true.


----------



## Burner Account

The best gets the biggest.


----------



## Savant

Oliver is the only ref in the league that deserves that fixture.


----------



## Rob

Nice compilation of angry Man U fans from the past year.



The only other fan base that is nearly this bitter is Arsenal's.


----------



## bleedblue1223

hatterson said:


> Lots of rumors that Saudis, specifically MbS, are buying United for around 4 billion pounds.
> 
> I absolutely hate the idea and may legitimately stop being a fan if it’s true.



I'd be fascinated to see the reaction of MbS buying United. Hope it doesn't happen for non-sporting reasons, but the world's reaction would be something.


----------



## The Abusement Park

bleedblue1223 said:


> I'd be fascinated to see the reaction of MbS buying United. Hope it doesn't happen for non-sporting reasons, but the world's reaction would be something.




It’s tough because let’s be real, just about everyone who owns a team or has the money to buy a team is pretty shitty in some form. Most I would say in a more capitalistic form, but MbS is just a horrible human on so many levels that it feels different with him.


----------



## SJSharks72

hatterson said:


> Lots of rumors that Saudis, specifically MbS, are buying United for around 4 billion pounds.
> 
> I absolutely hate the idea and may legitimately stop being a fan if it’s true.



Don’t know the backstory here. Would someone be able to shed light on why he’s so bad?


----------



## bleedblue1223

The Abusement Park said:


> It’s tough because let’s be real, just about everyone who owns a team or has the money to buy a team is pretty ****ty in some form. Most I would say in a more capitalistic form, but MbS is just a horrible human on so many levels that it feels different with him.



Right. Like even with Roman, I'm sure he's done some shady and illegal stuff in business. With MbS, you have the same feelings, but regards to human rights. It's just such a different type of pill to swallow.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

The Abusement Park said:


> It’s tough because let’s be real, just about everyone who owns a team or has the money to buy a team is pretty ****ty in some form. Most I would say in a more capitalistic form, but MbS is just a horrible human on so many levels that it feels different with him.




city’s is pretty bad too but once the good footy starts rolling i for one forget it



SJSharks39 said:


> Don’t know the backstory here. Would someone be able to shed light on why he’s so bad?




lol


----------



## bleedblue1223

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> city’s is pretty bad too but once the good footy starts rolling i for one forget it
> 
> lol



City's owners are lesser known to people that aren't knowledgeable on it though. MbS is just a much bigger figure to the general public.


----------



## The Abusement Park

SJSharks39 said:


> Don’t know the backstory here. Would someone be able to shed light on why he’s so bad?




Where to start... he kills reporters who stick up for womens rights, he basically submits minorities to slavery, he gives women no rights, and he bombed a hospital in Yemen. Off the top of my head that's what I can think of, he's just an evil dictator that is just one of, if not the worst people currently alive right now.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

bleedblue1223 said:


> City's owners are lesser known to people that aren't knowledgeable on it though. MbS is just a much bigger figure to the general public.



True but it doesn’t make it better. Like Chevy for instance who have killed more than MBS but do not have a face.


----------



## bleedblue1223

The Abusement Park said:


> Where to start... he kills reporters who stick up for womens rights, he basically submits minorities to slavery, he gives women no rights, and he bombed a hospital in Yemen. Off the top of my head that's what I can think of, he's just an evil dictator that is just one of, if not the worst people currently alive right now.




Yeah, most likely he ordered the Jamal Khashoggi killing.


----------



## The Abusement Park

bleedblue1223 said:


> Right. Like even with Roman, I'm sure he's done some shady and illegal stuff in business. With MbS, you have the same feelings, but regards to human rights. It's just such a different type of pill to swallow.




It's definitely different. And like I said, it's not like most owners are "saints", I'd even say that almost all of them have done very very shitty things. But few of them violate human rights like MbS does.



Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> city’s is pretty bad too but once the good footy starts rolling i for one forget it.




I mean I'm sure United would end up being a really good team again with MbS at the helm, similar to how City became a power.


----------



## hatterson

The Abusement Park said:


> Where to start... he kills reporters who stick up for womens rights, he basically submits minorities to slavery, he gives women no rights, and he bombed a hospital in Yemen. Off the top of my head that's what I can think of, he's just an evil dictator that is just one of, if not the worst people currently alive right now.




He's not quite as bad/brutal as Kim Jong Un or Assad, but he's easily in the top 5 and in terms of countries with a major international foothold, he's right near the top.

The bombings in Yemen (or civilians, schools and hospitals), jailing of women's rights activists, treatment of minorities inside Saudi Arabia, killing of Khashoggi, and arresting and confiscating/stealing 100 billion in wealth to fund his empire/PR campaign are some of the highlights.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

hatterson said:


> He's not quite as bad/brutal as Kim Jong Un or *Assad,* but he's easily in the top 5 and in terms of countries with a major international foothold, he's right near the top.
> 
> The bombings in Yemen (or civilians, schools and hospitals), jailing of women's rights activists, treatment of minorities inside Saudi Arabia, killing of Khashoggi, and arresting and confiscating/stealing 100 billion in wealth to fund his empire/PR campaign are some of the highlights.




lol he is INFINITELY worse.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> lol he is INFINITELY worse.




If I was making a power rankings(oof lol), I think MbS would be 2nd behind Kim Jung Un. 

But I mean they're all human garbage so it's not like it matters really.


----------



## hatterson

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> lol he is INFINITELY worse.




Sorry, just to clarify. You mean Assad is infinitely worse, or MbS is infinitely worse?

I'm assuming the former...


----------



## Jersey Fresh

As always, absolutely love when this comes up. 

"Yeah Qatar and Saudi Arabia are bad, but have you heard about Chevrolet????"



Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> lol he is INFINITELY worse.



lol.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

hatterson said:


> Sorry, just to clarify. You mean Assad is infinitely worse, or MbS is infinitely worse?
> 
> I'm assuming the former...



You're talking to classic super-leftist reactionary. 

Of course Assad isn't as bad to him, he's aligned against the "West". Chlorine gassings and barrel bombs be damned.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Jersey Fresh said:


> As always, absolutely love when this comes up.
> 
> "Yeah Qatar and Saudi Arabia are bad, but have you heard about Chevrolet????




I know right, shake my head every time.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

hatterson said:


> Sorry, just to clarify. You mean Assad is infinitely worse, or MbS is infinitely worse?
> 
> I'm assuming the former...




MBS is definitely worse. Like way worse.



Jersey Fresh said:


> You're talking to classic super-leftist reactionary.
> 
> Of course Assad isn't as bad to him, he's aligned against the "West". Chlorine gassings and barrel bombs be damned.




I'm definitely not a leftist. and the rest of the stuff lol


----------



## YNWA14

On an actual footballing note...apparently Son's red card has been overturned. Son is probably one of my favourite non-Liverpool/Dutch players but this is farcical IMO.


----------



## phisherman

There aren't any rules to prevent certain people from owning a club?

So technically Kim Jong Un can buy an English club?


----------



## bleedblue1223

phisherman said:


> There aren't any rules to prevent certain people from owning a club?
> 
> So technically Kim Jong Un can buy an English club?



I'm not sure of the exact rules for the sporting side, but governmental sanctions and regulations would still be in effect. The government side is part of what has fueled rumors that Roman is open to selling Chelsea.

I imagine Kim Jong Un would not be allowed to purchase an English club.


----------



## hatterson

phisherman said:


> There aren't any rules to prevent certain people from owning a club?
> 
> So technically Kim Jong Un can buy an English club?




I have to assume that Kim is under sanctions from the UK government that would prevent him from buying the club. But as far as the FA is concerned, it seems to be more about if you can write the cheque than anything else.


----------



## bleedblue1223

I would imagine there is some sort of FA approval process, just not familiar on it. In NA, the other owners typically have to approve a prospective owner before a sale is final, and they can also wield their influence to force someone out.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

bleedblue1223 said:


> Can we just agree the Middle East is a giant mess and the media has always failed to bring us unbiased facts about what is going on there.



If you want to be informed about what’s actually going on, it’s probably best not to rely on the media. For instance the worst things MBS has done isn’t even mentioned on here. Most rest that MBS is bad becuase he killed a reporter, which gained international news. The worst part is largely unknown to most


----------



## SJSharks72

Ceremony said:


> Have you never heard the terms "Saudi Arabia" and "human rights" used in close conjunction on a television show called The News



Just because someone is from Saudi Arabia doesn’t mean they’re horrible people. I’m sorry that I don’t have the time to research every little thing about one person. Yes I’ve heard the stories but I didn’t know it was him specifically. Love the condescending response from the all knowing though.


----------



## bleedblue1223

SJSharks39 said:


> Just because someone is from Saudi Arabia doesn’t mean they’re horrible people. I’m sorry that I don’t have the time to research every little thing about one person. Yes I’ve heard the stories but I didn’t know it was him specifically. Love the condescending response from the all knowing though.



He's essentially their leader right now. 

I agree, not everyone keeps up with all the news around the world. Most of it is depressing and most people just don't want to focus on it if it doesn't affect them. Too many other things in life to worry about.


----------



## SJSharks72

bleedblue1223 said:


> He's essentially their leader right now.
> 
> I agree, not everyone keeps up with all the news around the world. Most of it is depressing and most people just don't want to focus on it if it doesn't affect them. Too many other things in life to worry about.



Yep exactly my issue. I try to keep up with the big things but I don’t know all the details hence the question. I wasn’t asking because I had an opinion just that I genuinely didn’t know who he was.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Hard to argue that MBS isn’t big. I mean I will never hate on someone who decides not to keep informed, even tho apathy is what condones tragedies.


----------



## Halladay

Keep the politics to a minimum. Plus nothing has been confirmed yet.


----------



## SJSharks72

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Hard to argue that MBS isn’t big. I mean I will never hate on someone who decides not to keep informed, even tho apathy is what condones tragedies.



I think the biggest thing for me is that I didn’t have a name/face to it. It was more of knowing about what was going on but not linking it to specific people. I do think that it is best to not be fully informed though because everything is just depressing in the world today.


----------



## bluesfan94

I think the argument between who's the worst of the world leaders is silly. They all suck. Using chemical weapons on your own people is wrong. So is enforcing a system that subordinates women. So is stealing the resources of the populace to self-aggrandize. At this point, Assad and Un are not rumored to buy a major football clubs, MbS is.

Comparing a leader to a corporation is also silly. Trying to quantify how many people a corporation has killed seems like a foolish task and one that is fraught with difficulty to the point of impossibility. It's much easier with regards to leaders of countries. Regardless, once again, we're stuck with the unassailable fact that Chevrolet does not _*own*_ a major football team. 

Now, there are some highly questionable owners in terms of business practices. Many owners fit this description. However, looking at the harms of certain business practices differs, at least to me, from looking at the actions of dictators and the like. I am fine with saying that it's worse to, say, order the bombing of people than to provide less than a living wage (albeit a legal wage) or to cause pollution.


----------



## S E P H

Xhaka has been officially ripped from captaincy and it has been given to Aubameyang. Hopefully this marks a transfer out from the squad in one of the next upcoming windows.

Serie A come on down!


----------



## AB13

S E P H said:


> Xhaka has been officially ripped from captaincy and it has been given to Aubameyang. Hopefully this marks a transfer out from the squad in one of the next upcoming windows.
> 
> Serie A come on down!




Everton want to bid for Xhaka in January apparently. Everton are absolute heroes, they already gave us 60 million pounds for Walcott and Iwobi.


----------



## robertmac43

There is no way Xhaka is still here a couple months from now. You cannot come back from this if you are Xhaka, not at the Emirates.


----------



## S E P H

Lol, saw this post from AFTV...

"Arsenal’s Captaincy is like Harry Potter’s Defense Against the Dark Arts teaching post. No one lasts for more than a year..."


----------



## YNWA14

Someone put together the table with the strength of schedule so far, the next batch of games, and the rest of the season. Pretty interesting.






...and here I had high hopes for West Ham this season.  Looks good for Sheffield though.


----------



## robertmac43

Brighton's middle of the season to the last month is hard. Hoping they can steal some points against bigger teams at home, they will need to if they want to stay up.


----------



## bleedblue1223

YNWA14 said:


> Someone put together the table with the strength of schedule so far, the next batch of games, and the rest of the season. Pretty interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and here I had high hopes for West Ham this season.  Looks good for Sheffield though.



West Ham are still just 4 points out of 5th. It's absurdly tight from 5th to 16th.


----------



## YNWA14

bleedblue1223 said:


> West Ham are still just 4 points out of 5th. It's absurdly tight from 5th to 16th.



Yeah I just meant because they are where they are and have the toughest schedule left of any team. I thought with their roster they could challenge for top 6 along with Wolves and Leicester. Whoops.


----------



## bleedblue1223

YNWA14 said:


> Yeah I just meant because they are where they are and have the toughest schedule left of any team. I thought with their roster they could challenge for top 6 along with Wolves and Leicester. Whoops.



I think they still can. That strength of schedule metric isn't all that reliable to me because of the parity in the middle. The difference between the 5th hardest team and the 16th easiest team is minimal based on production. Based on talent, it's all over the place.


----------



## Blender

bleedblue1223 said:


> I think they still can. That strength of schedule metric isn't all that reliable to me because of the parity in the middle. The difference between the 5th hardest team and the 16th easiest team is minimal based on production. Based on talent, it's all over the place.



Yea the difference between the 5th and 16th hardest schedule is negligible.


----------



## Jussi

Norwich City set up a pop-up store at Kamppi mall in Helsinki and expect to sell 90-100K euros worth of merchandise in two days. They already sold 50K worth on Friday.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

I'll say this, West Ham have been playing like absolute, unadulterated shit over the past 2 months. Having said that, they've dropped a couple points solely due to Roberto being trash. Fabianski coming back will be huge in the next month. And Antonio should be back for the next match as well.

Anderson really needs to take his head out of his ass.


----------



## S E P H

VAR incorrectly overruled decisions four times - Premier League referees' chief Mike Riley

I thought this was a good article, hard to disagree with any of them.


----------



## PansCyans

The Sun is reporting that Marco Silvia will be sacked and replaced by Moyes in the coming days.


----------



## Havre

Silva should get fired, but Moyes?

I wonder what happened to him. Not that I follow Greek football outside European games, but his record for a young coach both in Portugal and Greece was impressive. His Hull-team looked great all things considering and for awhile Watford the same. I thought he would do excellently for Everton and at times at the end of last season they were finally starting to play some decent football. This season they have been shocking. Everton - Spurs is one of the poorest games I have ever seen between two teams that should be half decent.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

They should try offering their former player, Arteta, the job instead.


----------



## S E P H

Matt Law reporting that Arsenal players' losing (or have already lost) faith in Emery. Mentions that a lot of players are confused (no **** Sherlock, you can see it out there on the pitch), lack of tactics, and doubtful in him having the ability to overcome what's already been done. One is that he constantly changes his tactics which creates bad decision which a source says from the players.

Rumours are if they fire Emery, Ljungberg would be the favourites to replace Unai until the end of the season where a permanent solution would be found. Law mentions the two main candidates would be Arteta and Nagelsmann. We already ****ed up once by not getting Nagelsmann, can't do it a second time.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## Blender

spintheblackcircle said:


>




Pretty old news really, everyone knows he has deep ties to the Russian state.

Even with that, he might be 3rd or 4th on the list of morally questionable Premier League owners. He's definitely not 1st.


----------



## Blender

Dribble kings Grealish and Saint-Maximin among league's best

Interesting read on who the best players in the league have been at carrying the ball this season.


----------



## robertmac43

Potter extended through to 2025!


----------



## YNWA14

Blender said:


> Dribble kings Grealish and Saint-Maximin among league's best
> 
> Interesting read on who the best players in the league have been at carrying the ball this season.



Very interesting also highlighting the importance of Liverpool's fullbacks even further (though this is nothing super new). At the end of the day it makes sense given the 'favourites' who tend to have the ball more will be given more space through the fullbacks while teams that sit back on the counter will more likely have more space for their forwards/wingers to attack when they do get on the ball.

With Pereira up there (and it wouldn't surprise me if Chilwell is not too far behind) I'd be interested to see how much of Liverpool's approach Rodgers has attempted to emulate in terms of wingback usage and importance to his system.


----------



## Savant

YNWA14 said:


> Very interesting also highlighting the importance of Liverpool's fullbacks even further (though this is nothing super new). At the end of the day it makes sense given the 'favourites' who tend to have the ball more will be given more space through the fullbacks while teams that sit back on the counter will more likely have more space for their forwards/wingers to attack when they do get on the ball.
> 
> With Pereira up there (and it wouldn't surprise me if Chilwell is not too far behind) I'd be interested to see how much of Liverpool's approach Rodgers has attempted to emulate in terms of wingback usage and importance to his system.



Would really like to get Pereira to LFC and get Trent into midfield.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Savant said:


> Would really like to get Pereira to LFC and get Trent into midfield.



Lol I told a friend of mine on Saturday that if Pep had Trent he would be playing in the midfield. Funny.


----------



## hatterson

Unsurprising to see Rashford and James with very high average carry distance given that most of our offensive "system" is a wide player sprinting down the wing and hoping something good happens.


----------



## Blender

YNWA14 said:


> Very interesting also highlighting the importance of Liverpool's fullbacks even further (though this is nothing super new). At the end of the day it makes sense given the 'favourites' who tend to have the ball more will be given more space through the fullbacks while teams that sit back on the counter will more likely have more space for their forwards/wingers to attack when they do get on the ball.
> 
> With Pereira up there (and it wouldn't surprise me if Chilwell is not too far behind) I'd be interested to see how much of Liverpool's approach Rodgers has attempted to emulate in terms of wingback usage and importance to his system.



I was arguing this earlier in the season and stand behind It still, Pereira is one of the best fullbacks in the league and really underrated.


----------



## Savant

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Lol I told a friend of mine on Saturday that if Pep had Trent he would be playing in the midfield. Funny.



Trent was always a midfielder coming up. Put him at RB to get him into the team. Think he finds his was back to the midfield sooner than later, but Klopp will probably want to give him a preseason training at that position to do so. I think Trent in midfielder and a better defensive RB is the easiest (not sure easiest is the right word) way to improve the team.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich




----------



## spintheblackcircle

huge


----------



## YNWA14

Sounds like Fabinho might be out all of December.

I'm not too worried about it. Wijnaldum slots into the 6 just fine, if not better. Though apparently Lallana will get some reps there which is...eh. My preference would be:

Wijnaldum
Henderson - Ox

With Keita, Milner and I guess...Lallana rotating in when needed.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Skip to 2:50. 

You love to hear it.


----------



## Havre

Is that AB13?


----------



## Savant

Fabinho is out 6-8 weeks. 

I hate everything


----------



## Havre

I hope Liverpool win the league as Spurs are not going to win it (I rather see Liverpool winning that plastic fantastic), but that is a team that has been remarkably lucky with injuries for quite awhile. van Dijk, Robertson, Salah, Mane etc. have been available game after game. This for a team that have played more tough games than any other with a style that should normally take its toll.

Now some will mention Firmino etc. - not suggesting Liverpool haven't had injuries, but the core has always been fairly intact.

Got plenty of depth in midfield. Every injury hurts, but it would be a much bigger issue if it was van Dijk or one of the front 3.


----------



## Savant

Havre said:


> Got plenty of depth in midfield. Every injury hurts, but it would be a much bigger issue if it was van Dijk or one of the front 3.



Not at the 6. 

I mean LFC survived Alisson being out 8 weeks but Fabinho helped that a lot. There aren’t a lot of Fabinho type players in the world.


----------



## robertmac43

Going to be a wild weekend of reactions from AFTV... Should be fun to follow!


----------



## Havre

Savant said:


> Not at the 6.
> 
> I mean LFC survived Alisson being out 8 weeks but Fabinho helped that a lot. There aren’t a lot of Fabinho type players in the world.




I really like Fabinho, but it is only about 12 months since he started to play well for Liverpool. And it is not like there is a lot of players in the PL better than Wijnaldum as 6.


----------



## Savant

Havre said:


> I really like Fabinho, but it is only about 12 months since he started to play well for Liverpool. And it is not like there is a lot of players in the PL better than Wijnaldum as 6.



Sure. But if Wijnaldum is playing 6, then they don’t have him in his best spot. Trickle down effect. And the team isn’t keeping clean sheets as it is


----------



## Havre

Savant said:


> Sure. But if Wijnaldum is playing 6, then they don’t have him in his best spot. Trickle down effect. And the team isn’t keeping clean sheets as it is




Absolutely. Every injury is a problem, but to me losing Fabinho is a lot easier to cope with than any of the front 3, van Dijk and I would also add at least Robertson. Probably also Trent. Partly because of the trickle down effect. Less depth than in midfield.


----------



## Savant

Havre said:


> Absolutely. Every injury is a problem, but to me losing Fabinho is a lot easier to cope with than any of the front 3, van Dijk and I would also add at least Robertson. Probably also Trent. Partly because of the trickle down effect. Less depth than in midfield.



Yes and no. Remains to be seen. LFC made a CL final without Fabinho so hope isn’t lost. Fabinho takes them to another level though, and with very little margin for error it certainly doesn’t help things.


----------



## YNWA14

Savant said:


> Sure. But if Wijnaldum is playing 6, then they don’t have him in his best spot. Trickle down effect. And the team isn’t keeping clean sheets as it is



Liverpool’s defensive record was better when Wijnaldum played the 6 than any other player in that position.

Fabinho is great because he does win the ball higher up the field often but his style exposes the defence a lot. He’s also more creative from deep than our other options there but given how little we create from midfield, typically, anyway I actually prefer Wijnaldum at the 6.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Mourinho seems to be pushing academy players to sign pro contracts. Three this week.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Creed Bratton said:


> Mourinho seems to be pushing academy players to sign pro contracts. Three this week.



A fourth one signed today. Could possible be even more considering that it isn't the club announcing it, it's the players through their social media.


----------



## Blender




----------



## gary69

This would be a good change, win for common sense.

"The use of video assistant referees for marginal offside decisions could be amended next season...some fans and pundits have said such tight calls are ruining the spirit of the game and handing an advantage to defenders..."

VAR: Uefa and home nation FAs to push for changes to offside calls next season


----------



## hatterson

I think the easiest solution is to limit the number of replays they get.

Watching it 2 or 3 times at full speed and 2 or 3 times at half speed. If you can't definitively tell from those looks, it's too close to provide a meaningful advantage and thus should be allowed.

Offside was never meant to be called at millimeter precision, it was meant to prevent cherry picking.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Blender said:


>



As a Chelsea fan, I propose a new rule, matches last 60 minutes.


----------



## The Abusement Park

hatterson said:


> I think the easiest solution is to limit the number of replays they get.
> 
> Watching it 2 or 3 times at full speed and 2 or 3 times at half speed. If you can't definitively tell from those looks, it's too close to provide a meaningful advantage and thus should be allowed.
> 
> Offside was never meant to be called at millimeter precision, it was meant to prevent cherry picking.




I think in all sports video reviews should get a time limit of like 1 minute or something. If it's so close that you have to look at it that closely it wasn't that unfair of an advantage/missed call.


----------



## bleedblue1223

The Abusement Park said:


> I think in all sports video reviews should get a time limit of like 1 minute or something. If it's so close that you have to look at it that closely it wasn't that unfair of an advantage/missed call.



The NFL is highlighting the issue on both ends. With the over-reviewing, now no one knows what an actual catch is, similar to how offsides is being reviewed. On the other side, they are reserving the pass-interference reviews for the only egregious misses, which have led to plenty of decisions of clear pass-interference that the refs happened to miss, but it wasn't deemed too egregious.

It will be impossible to determine the sweet spot IMO. Even with a time limit, I could easily see a horrible decision being made and people complaining that they don't have enough time.


----------



## The Abusement Park

bleedblue1223 said:


> The NFL is highlighting the issue on both ends. With the over-reviewing, now no one knows what an actual catch is, similar to how offsides is being reviewed. On the other side, they are reserving the pass-interference reviews for the only egregious misses, which have led to plenty of decisions of clear pass-interference that the refs happened to miss, but it wasn't deemed too egregious.
> 
> It will be impossible to determine the sweet spot IMO. Even with a time limit, I could easily see a horrible decision being made and people complaining that they don't have enough time.




I think in soccer at least, I think that a time limit would be good. There will always be wrong calls made, but if a horrible call needs to be overturned it shouldn't take more than a minute or so to overturn.


----------



## Cassano




----------



## YNWA14

This guy. <3


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Cassano said:


>




What were the comments?

EDIT: Nvm, did my own leg work.


----------



## Cassano

YNWA14 said:


> This guy. <3




but he played in the scottish league, how is this possible


----------



## Jack Straw

bleedblue1223 said:


> As a Chelsea fan, I propose a new rule, matches last 60 minutes.




As a Spurs fan I second this proposal.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Cassano said:


>




Imagine standing up for basic human rights and against genocide is “politics” lol. I’d imagine they have the same energy when the victims are westerners.


----------



## Blender

Cassano said:


>




Pathetic, absolutely pathetic.


----------



## Jussi

Lingard's been having a tough time off the pitch lately, which probably has shown somewhat on the pitch as well. It's DAily Fail story but unlike their usual stuff, worth a read:

EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW: Jesse Lingard opens up on his family agony at Manchester United | Daily Mail Online



> 'My mum has had some things for years but never really got help. Now she is. So I have been taking care of my brother and sister. They are with me. It has been tough to see my loved ones struggling and then I have to come to work and try to do my job.'
> 
> 'I am a person who likes to deal with stuff on his own but it's not necessarily the right thing to do,' he added. 'I always use the phrase "Be yourself" but I have realised now that there are times when you just can't be. My dad and older brother, Louie, have been great support but some of this stuff has broken my heart, you know?
> 
> 'As a man I have to take this responsibility on and be there for everyone. I've had to mature and wise up. Sometimes when your worries are so deep you can't function properly. Now it's about getting back to my best and I feel I can do that.'


----------



## YNWA14

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Imagine standing up for basic human rights and against genocide is “politics” lol. I’d imagine they have the same energy when the victims are westerners.



I'm not educated on either topic, but I saw people commenting that Ozil supports a regime that is attempting genocide on Armenians or something like that?

Ultimately all of this stuff should be spoken out against but I don't really know anything about it; I imagine that there are a lot of politically divisive topics that football clubs distance themselves from.


----------



## Cassano

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Imagine standing up for basic human rights and against genocide is “politics” lol. I’d imagine they have the same energy when the victims are westerners.



Lol you know what's funny, Bellerin had a tweet that had #f***Borris and the club didn't even comment on that.

Not that I disagree... Heccy B for captain


----------



## Albatros

YNWA14 said:


> I'm not educated on either topic, but I saw people commenting that Ozil supports a regime that is attempting genocide on Armenians or something like that?
> 
> Ultimately all of this stuff should be spoken out against but I don't really know anything about it; I imagine that there are a lot of politically divisive topics that football clubs distance themselves from.




There's some hypocrisy in Turkey for sure, but regarding Özil personally I think it's normal that he focuses on contemporary issues rather than what happened more than a century ago.

I also think this is too much of a taboo in China to become the next outrage so Arsenal doesn't have to act like the submissive bitches they are.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

YNWA14 said:


> I'm not educated on either topic, but I saw people commenting that Ozil supports a regime that is attempting genocide on Armenians or something like that?
> 
> Ultimately all of this stuff should be spoken out against but I don't really know anything about it; I imagine that there are a lot of politically divisive topics that football clubs distance themselves from.




Not attempting a genocide, they're denying it ever existed this was during the latter stages of the Ottoman Empire. Turkey refuse to acknowledge that it occurred. I don't know Ozil's personal opinion on the matter. Many academic scholars in Turkey have forward and stated that it is a fact. They've all been exiled irrc. 

Just imagine a player standing up for LGBT community rights or other tragedies such as the Paris incident, I'd wager Arsenal wouldnt have the response. So, yeah loser mentality on and off the field


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Albatros said:


> There's some hypocrisy in Turkey for sure, but regarding Özil personally I think it's normal that he focuses on contemporary issues rather than what happened more than a century ago.
> 
> I also think this is too much of a taboo in China to become the next outrage so Arsenal doesn't have to act like the submissive *****es they are.




Ozils comments sounded more like an Islamist call for action vs China than a concern about human rights in general. I dont like people kow towing to China who are authoritarian and brutal, but Ozils concern seems to be limited to situations where *his* folks are affected. If the shoe is on the other foot hes best buddies with the perpetrators...

Now that Ozil doesn’t have to pretend anymore that hes some symbol of German immigrant integration hes showing where his loyalties really are.


----------



## Cassano

I'm pretty sure most clubs would have taken the same stance as Arsenal. Too much $$$ involved to start war with China. NBA is hurting with Daryl Morey's comments. 

Still, I'm very disappointed with it.


----------



## Albatros

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Ozils comments sounded more like an Islamist call for action vs China than a concern about human rights in general. I dont like people kow towing to China who are authoritarian and brutal, but Ozils concern seems to be limited to situations where *his* folks are affected. If the shoe is on the other foot hes best buddies with the perpetrators...
> 
> Now that Ozil doesn’t have to pretend anymore that hes some symbol of German immigrant integration hes showing where his loyalties really are.




Everyone chooses their own fights, that's only natural. If someone is in the position to lecture Özil about his activism then by all means, but unfortunately it's usually the people that themselves do nothing at all who are the loudest when it comes to criticism.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Wasn't Erdogan the best man at Ozil's wedding?


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Cassano said:


> I'm pretty sure most clubs would have taken the same stance as Arsenal. Too much $$$ involved to start war with China. NBA is hurting with Daryl Morey's comments.
> 
> Still, I'm very disappointed with it.



The Bellerin thing is definitely funny, though. You'd think if you were so gung ho about being apolitical you'd start at home. 

That said, it's not like everyone doesn't know this is about protecting that Chinese money from flowing in.


----------



## Blender

Ozil is an Erdogan regime bootlicker who is very selective in his statements in this area. That doesn't excuse Arsenal though.


----------



## phisherman

I don't see any other clubs condemning China. At least Arsenal has put out their stance. 

Can't wait to watch Inter, Barca, Real, Chelsea, Man U, etc. play in China this summer.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Ozils comments sounded more like an Islamist call for action vs China than a concern about human rights in general. I dont like people kow towing to China who are authoritarian and brutal, but Ozils concern seems to be limited to situations where *his* folks are affected. If the shoe is on the other foot hes best buddies with the perpetrators...
> 
> Now that Ozil doesn’t have to pretend anymore that hes some symbol of German immigrant integration hes showing where his loyalties really are.




LOL typical

This isnt about Ozil and his alliances its about Arsenal. Also not even sure what you mean by "his" people... THose Muslims in China have ZERO ties to Ozil. Calling for solidarity or condemnation to genocide is not showing alliances its waht everyone should be doing. 



Blender said:


> Ozil is an Erdogan regime bootlicker who is very selective in his statements in this area. That doesn't excuse Arsenal though.




pretty much.



phisherman said:


> I don't see any other clubs condemning China. At least Arsenal has put out their stance.
> 
> Can't wait to watch Inter, Barca, Real, Chelsea, Man U, etc. play in China this summer.




So in the case of oppression and human right violations its ok to be on the wrong side as long as you pick a side? Jeez I'd delete this post if I were you.


----------



## Cassano

Every club would do the same if they had a player with the balls to call out China. Except maybe Union Berlin


----------



## phisherman

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> LOL typical
> So in the case of oppression and human right violations its ok to be on the wrong side as long as you pick a side? Jeez I'd delete this post if I were you.




Did I say they were right? I said we know what their stance is.

It would be the same as me implying you think it's OK for clubs to stay silent because I don't see you condemning them.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Cassano said:


> Every club would do the same if they had a player with the balls to call out China. Except maybe Union Berlin



This is baseless


----------



## Cassano

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> This is baseless



No it isn't Lol. All these clubs are corporate shills that prioritize money.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

phisherman said:


> Did I say they were right? I said we know what their stance is.
> 
> It would be the same as me implying you think it's OK for clubs to stay silent because I don't see you condemning them.



You implied it by saying at least we know their stance. Teams don’t need to go out of their way to condemn tragedies, but arsenal went out of their way to basically say it’s ok humans rights don’t matter unless your rich or western. Good to know.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Cassano said:


> No it isn't Lol. All these clubs are corporate shills that prioritize money.



So when Barcelona stand in solidarity with Catalunya is that prioritizing $?


----------



## phisherman

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> So when Barcelona stand in solidarity with Catalunya is that prioritizing $?




Imagine thinking Catalunya is as big of a market as China.

So it's cool if Arsenal just shut their mouth. Got it.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

phisherman said:


> Imagine thinking Catalunya is as big of a market as China.
> 
> So it's cool if Arsenal just shut their mouth. Got it.



Never said it was as big and the comparison would be Spain(the country that they’re condemning) not Catalunya lol. 

Yes you either stand in solidarity towards oppression or you stfu. Very simple.


----------



## Cassano

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> So when Barcelona stand in solidarity with Catalunya is that prioritizing $?



Since you bring up Barcelona...

Barcelona also went to Israel and dined with Netanyahu and went on an 'Israeli Peace Tour' LOL. Banter FC.


----------



## Blender

phisherman said:


> I don't see any other clubs condemning China. At least Arsenal has put out their stance.
> 
> Can't wait to watch Inter, Barca, Real, Chelsea, Man U, etc. play in China this summer.



Difference in this situation that you're conveniently ignoring is that Arsenal went out of their way to make it clear that they didn't support what Ozil said. I don't expect any of these teams to make moral statements about human rights when they are chasing money, they are all greedy after all. That doesn't mean they need to go out of their way to distance themselves from statements against those human rights abuses.


----------



## phisherman

Blender said:


> Difference in this situation that you're conveniently ignoring is that Arsenal went out of their way to make it clear that they didn't support what Ozil said. I don't expect any of these teams to make moral statements about human rights when they are chasing money, they are all greedy after all. That doesn't mean they need to go out of their way to distance themselves from statements against those human rights abuses.




They do if they still want to keep chasing money.


----------



## Cassano

Blender said:


> Difference in this situation that you're conveniently ignoring is that Arsenal went out of their way to make it clear that they didn't support what Ozil said. I don't expect any of these teams to make moral statements about human rights when they are chasing money, they are all greedy after all. That doesn't mean they need to go out of their way to distance themselves from statements against those human rights abuses.



Have you followed what happened with the Houston Rockets? They stood by Daryl Morey's comments and the NBA is now boycotted in China. Billion dollar market that is affected.

The PL would be in shambles in China if Arsenal stood 100% support for Ozil. Any other club, besides maybe Union Berlin would've done the same.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Cassano said:


> Since you bring up Barcelona...
> 
> Barcelona also went to Israel and dined with Netanyahu and went on an 'Israeli Peace Tour' LOL. Banter FC.



Yeah, peace tours with Israeli and Palestinian children in Jaffa and the PA. You're on it!


----------



## Blender

Cassano said:


> Have you followed what happened with the Houston Rockets? They stood by Daryl Morey's comments and the NBA is now boycotted in China. Billion dollar market that is affected.



Good on the NBA for taking a moral stance there. Bending over backwards to avoid offending human rights abusers because they don't like having their human rights abuses called out in public is morally bankrupt behavior.


----------



## phisherman

Blender said:


> Good on the NBA for taking a moral stance there. Bending over backwards to avoid offending human rights abusers because they don't like having their human rights abuses called out in public is morally bankrupt behavior.




The NBA did the same thing as Arsenal.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Cassano said:


> Since you bring up Barcelona...
> 
> Barcelona also went to Israel and *dined with Netanyahu* and went on an 'Israeli Peace Tour' LOL. Banter FC.




Should be equally called out for...yes. 2 wrongs make a right tho?


----------



## Cassano

Blender said:


> Good on the NBA for taking a moral stance there. Bending over backwards to avoid offending human rights abusers because they don't like having their human rights abuses called out in public is morally bankrupt behavior.



They do that, but they still ban signs like 'Free Hong Kong' to games.


----------



## Blender

Cassano said:


> They do that, but they still ban signs like 'Free Hong Kong' to games.



Ideally none of these business would do business with countries with terrible track records, but that's unfortunately not the society we live in. Most consumer goods are made in a variety of countries with some pretty abhorrent working conditions.


----------



## Cassano

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Should be equally called out for...yes. 2 wrongs make a right tho?



So don't make it sound BS like Barcelona is a perfect club with no problem. In fact, dining with Zionists as a club tour vs. situating away from a single player's opinion is worse...


----------



## Cassano

Blender said:


> Ideally none of these business would do business with countries with terrible track records, but that's unfortunately not the society we live in. Most consumer goods are made in a variety of countries with some pretty abhorrent working conditions.



Which is why I say any other club would've made a similar stance if one of their players spoke out. It's not an Arsenal FC thing... it's a greedy football ownership thing.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Cassano said:


> So don't make it sound BS like Barcelona is a perfect club with no problem. In fact, dining with Zionists as a club tour vs. situating away from a single player's opinion is worse...



But you do see the difference right? In that both are awful moves and should be called out. 

btw it’s not single players “opinion” it’s a fact which ozil saw correctly.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Just like the NBA, Arsenal and all other clubs and corporations will always bend the knee to China, but screw those conservatives at home, amirite?


----------



## Cassano

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> But you do see the difference right? In that both are awful moves and should be called out.
> 
> btw it’s not single players “opinion” it’s a fact which ozil saw correctly.



Yes they should. And I agree. 

I just found it funny how you referenced FC Barcelona out of all teams as some sort of messiah to human rights as an example LOL.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Cassano said:


> So don't make it sound BS like Barcelona is a perfect club with no problem. In fact, dining with Zionists as a club tour vs. situating away from a single player's opinion is worse...



Lol you seem to have a lot of opinions for a guy whose entire position whittled down to "money over everything".

Although I'd fully expect you to be whining too were it a club other than Arsenal under the microscope.


----------



## Halladay

Quit the political talk.


----------



## Live in the Now

Tierney is going to miss three months with another bad injury, this one to his shoulder. It was dislocated.


----------



## Cassano

Live in the Now said:


> Tierney is going to miss three months with another bad injury, this one to his shoulder. It was dislocated.



Sami Salo of soccer


----------



## Machinehead

We've almost caught up to Leicester in GD.

Thanks for that, Southampton.


----------



## YNWA14

Live in the Now said:


> Tierney is going to miss three months with another bad injury, this one to his shoulder. It was dislocated.



Called it!


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Halladay said:


> Quit the political talk.




Man, if only there was a board that political talk could be redirected to.


----------



## S E P H

YNWA14 said:


> Called it!



Called what? A random sports hernia and a fluke dislocated shoulder isn't really injury prone...


----------



## YNWA14

S E P H said:


> Called what? A random sports hernia and a fluke dislocated shoulder isn't really injury prone...



When the injury happened I said it looked like he dislocated his shoulder.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Rumors are saying that Jordi Cruyff will become United’s DOF.


----------



## Chimaera

Could do worse


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Maccabi legend Jordi Cruyff.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Chimaera said:


> Could do worse




I don't know his history in the DOF role, but it's better than hiring Ferdinand that's for sure.


----------



## hatterson

The Abusement Park said:


> I don't know his history in the DOF role, but it's better than hiring Ferdinand that's for sure.




Looks like he was DoF at AEK Larnaca for a couple years and then sporting director at Maccabi Tel Aviv for 5 or 6 years.

He just finished managing a random Chinese super league side.

It sounds like he’s done well as a director, but United is clearly about 7 steps up from the places he’s been so we’ll see what happens.

Granted, anything to get Woodward out of that spot is good.


----------



## Chimaera

I mean, he did ok in the role at the stops he made from what I can tell. He has some connections with clubs they might want to do business with, both through family, and having served in the role before. But it is a massive step up for what he's being expected to do. Whether or not he can run a scouting network, or if he's tuned into the new analytics that are being used is a debate that could be had. However, he's a footballing mind where right now they have a money man. The question I have is whether or not he has final say.

I don't think it's the worst decision, but he isn't exactly an experienced hand. He isn't Ferdinand, who has no experience, but he also does smack a little bit of the find the nostalgia that appointing OGS hints around. That's well and good, but they should shoot for the best placement they can get. I also have some questions about whether or not he would take a managerial role if one was available, and is taking this more because that's what he's being offered, more so than any particular aptitude or desire. It seems a touch strange to kinda end up in a meh job for a nobody club where he's leaving more or less by mutual consent in China to going to running one of the largest clubs in the world.


----------



## Savant

Looks like Ancelotti is going to Everton and Arteta is going to Arsenal. 

This is honestly giving me Lukaku/Morata summer transfer vibes where they both wound up at the wrong club


----------



## YNWA14

How the mighty have fallen re: Ancelotti. Can’t believe he’s done this.


----------



## Savant

YNWA14 said:


> How the mighty have fallen re: Ancelotti. Can’t believe he’s done this.




It’s definitely an interesting appointment, and he is the best manager that The Ev have had since Kendall. That being said, I have no idea what the expectations are there. The Premier League is an arms race and Everton are wayyyyyyyyy behind the other top 8, let alone top 6 teams. He would have made more sense at Arsenal, but Everton do need legitimacy, and if nothing else, Ancelotti brings that. But again. Benítez at Newcastle and Pellegrini at West Ham have shown that can only get you so far.


----------



## phisherman

Savant said:


> It’s definitely an interesting appointment, and he is the best manager that The Ev have had since Kendall. That being said, I have no idea what the expectations are there. The Premier League is an arms race and Everton are wayyyyyyyyy behind the other top 8, let alone top 6 teams. He would have made more sense at Arsenal, but Everton do need legitimacy, and if nothing else, Ancelotti brings that.




Ancelotti wouldn't have been right for Arsenal. He's more of a stop gap type manager.


----------



## Savant

phisherman said:


> Ancelotti wouldn't have been right for Arsenal. He's more of a stop gap type manager.



I don’t agree with that, but that’s okay. Ancelotti is a PL and CL winning manager. It’s a bit harsh to say he is stopgap. He has certainly coached all the biggest teams in the world, and those are generally the teams with the highest managerial turnover as well. If you are hiring Arteta that’s basically hitting the reset button. Is that what Arsenal is trying to do? They are at risk of not being in Europe. I’ve seen it at Liverpool. They are in a very bad spot.


----------



## Halladay

To go from the potential of Moyes to know Ancelotti is great for Everton.



Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Man, if only there was a board that political talk could be redirected to.



Fair, but that was the one forum on here that was more childish than this place...


----------



## phisherman

Savant said:


> I don’t agree with that, but that’s okay. Ancelotti is a PL and CL winning manager. It’s a bit harsh to say he is stopgap. He has certainly coached all the biggest teams in the world, and those are generally the teams with the highest managerial turnover as well. If you are hiring Arteta that’s basically hitting the reset button. Is that what Arsenal is trying to do? They are at risk of not being in Europe. I’ve seen it at Liverpool. They are in a very bad spot.




That's exactly what they're doing. In fact it seems like if Arteta is being hired he's going to oversee a clear out of the current squad.

Ancelotti wouldn't be the right type of manager to see through that.


----------



## Savant

phisherman said:


> That's exactly what they're doing. In fact it seems like if Arteta is being hired he's going to oversee a clear out of the current squad.
> 
> Ancelotti wouldn't be the right type of manager to see through that.



Well hope you guys are patient then. As I said, the PL has become an arms race. Need to be careful about falling too far back. I think Arteta would have been better at Everton because there are nowhere near the expectations (rebuild or not) that will be at Arsenal.


----------



## phisherman

Savant said:


> Well hope you guys are patient then. As I said, the PL has become an arms race. Need to be careful about falling too far back. I think Arteta would have been better at Everton because there are nowhere near the expectations (rebuild or not) that will be at Arsenal.




I think most reasonable Arsenal fan would be as long as they continue to sticking to the plan of signing younger players and seeing that the team having a clear identity.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Pellegrini's failure to elevate West Ham has a lot more to do with his own failings than any strictures associated with West Ham's strata. 

Ancelotti will have to adapt his tactics to the club in a way that Pellegrini has refused to do. So stubborn tactically and only last week did he finally decide to put someone up top with Haller. Lo and behold they looked much better, even with a lot of first teamers out injured.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Halladay said:


> Fair, but that was the one forum on here that was more childish than this place...




Just don't complain when people discuss the politics of soccer on the soccer board because there's no politics board to bring it to. Sports are political. Soccer is _extremely _political. Don't nuke a board and then bitch about how the politics talk ends up elsewhere.


----------



## Halladay

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Just don't complain when people discuss the politics of soccer on the soccer board because there's no politics board to bring it to. Sports are political. Soccer is _extremely _political. Don't nuke a board and then ***** about how the politics talk ends up elsewhere.



You can take it to a personal messages, even create a thread between all of you. Problem Solved.


----------



## hatterson

Halladay said:


> Fair, but that was the one forum on here that was more childish than this place...




I'm guessing you've never been to the lounge....


----------



## Halladay

hatterson said:


> I'm guessing you've never been to the lounge....



I have years ago. Have not ventured there recently. Good point though.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Huge run up to 2020.

First, Spurs host Chelsea and if they can win they will have jumped from 14th to 4th in a month. Then they host 14th place Brighton and then at bottom feeders Norwich and Southampton on Jan 1. 12 points is right there.

Meanwhile, Leicester has @ManCity, Liverpool, @West Ham and @Newcastle. It's possible they get some results, but it's also possible they get zero.

This is going to be a fun 2 weeks.


----------



## Havre

I wish it was that easy, but no doubt Spurs got a real chance at getting into a decent position for 4th. Hopefully the players won't think too much about it though. Unlikely that Spurs will win all 4. So can't allow yourself to be too down if you can't win them all (the ones you feel you should win).

Also having played Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Leicester, Wolverhampton and Man Utd away already can't hurt come spring.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Havre said:


> Also having played Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Leicester, Wolverhampton and Man Utd away already can't hurt come spring.




If they keep form, they are going be eating up 3 points at a time while other clubs may be getting 1's. 

Their remaining road matches are against current 20th, 19th, 18th, 17th, 14th, 12th, 11th, 9th, 7th and 4th.


----------



## Chimaera

This holiday period is always a big time for squads to see where they are. Leicester might have a hard run, but they also don't have Europe to worry about. Rodgers has shown in the past that with a week to prepare for matches, he can put on a decent show. Depth is a concern, but it is for everyone at this stage. 

I think Jose's appointment is a double edged sword for them in some ways. He knows how to get through and grind out the CL matches. That could mean more matches for top players in February, where some of the other clubs they're competing with might not get them.


----------



## Havre

European games could absolutely influence who ends up top 4, but I don't think it is very likely that Spurs will end up playing that more many European games than at least Wolverhampton and United. Probably the opposite. Chelsea is a different story, but at the moment they seem to be up against the weaker Germany team so...

The FA cup also comes into it. If Spurs end up going on long runs in both tournaments the league is bound to suffer at some point - but that is true for all of these teams.


----------



## hatterson

Interesting article about the 5 best and 5 worst transfers of recent memory for the big 6 clubs:

https://www.espn.com/soccer/soccer-...gue-clubs-best-and-worst-transfers-since-2009


----------



## Havre

Funny that Mata is among the best and Fred among the worst. I would take Fred over Mata every single day (obviously I understand they are basing it partly on what the players have achieved at the club).

The best lists are ballpark something. The worst I'm not sure if I understand what they have based them on. Seems to be a mix of bad value for money and actual quality of the player(s).

Top 5 for Liverpool and City is just on another level to the rest - which shows why they have also been more successful lately. Spurs got some sensational value for money while Liverpool and City got sensational players.


----------



## Chimaera

The irony of some of the flops for Liverpool, they got pretty close to even with the Benteke transfer, and Karius will actually make them a profit. 

I also think it's kinda hard to not have the best leftback (arguably) in the world that you got for pennies on your transfer successes. 

If you look at the success rate for Liverpool, it's pretty absurd what Edwards has been able to do. City has been very successful as well, though some of their purchases haven't all come off. Liverpool have been been pretty stellar from the time Klopp took over. Even Keita, who's more been plagued by injury than anything, looks to be the business.


----------



## Havre

Without having the numbers to back it up I also believe City has missed a lot more than Liverpool - but being plastic fantastic they can/could afford to do so.

Obviously Liverpool will regress to the mean at some point. And it seems like City will not be able to spend the same amount of money going forward. City probably got to start replacing players before Liverpool. Just not possible to replace some of these one for one.


----------



## hatterson

Havre said:


> Funny that Mata is among the best and Fred among the worst. I would take Fred over Mata every single day (obviously I understand they are basing it partly on what the players have achieved at the club).




Right now, obviously you would, but Mata was very good from when they bought him until about the end of the 16-17 season. In his first 146 games he scored 36 goals all comps and added something around 20 or 25 assists.

The top 2 for United are pretty obvious.

Not sure I agree with Martial and Pogba though. Neither have lived up to potential, although at least with Pogba it seems he'll be sold at a profit.


----------



## YNWA14

hatterson said:


> Interesting article about the 5 best and 5 worst transfers of recent memory for the big 6 clubs:
> 
> https://www.espn.com/soccer/soccer-...gue-clubs-best-and-worst-transfers-since-2009



Sterling ahead of Silva or de Bruyne seems a little insulting.


----------



## hatterson

YNWA14 said:


> Sterling ahead of Silva or de Bruyne seems a little insulting.




There's definitely some head scratchers in the list.

My point wasn't really "here's a great list" but rather that it was interesting to look at some of the names.


----------



## Chimaera

I think some of Sterling's rank in that is a projection. He's going to get better (though he's pretty close to top form now) and the fact that his transfer hurt Liverpool significantly.


----------



## Havre

hatterson said:


> Right now, obviously you would, but Mata was very good from when they bought him until about the end of the 16-17 season. In his first 146 games he scored 36 goals all comps and added something around 20 or 25 assists.
> 
> The top 2 for United are pretty obvious.
> 
> Not sure I agree with Martial and Pogba though. Neither have lived up to potential, although at least with Pogba it seems he'll be sold at a profit.




Yeah. I don't know if it is value for money or "best player". Alli better than Eriksen and Alderweireld is not true either, but value for money he is/has been (all sensational value for money though).

Quite astonishing how bad that list is for Utd considering it is the biggest club of the ones listed. Doesn't really matter who the coach is if Mata and Martial are two of the best four players you have bought the last 10 years (I loved Mata in Chelsea 13/14, but he never consistently delivered on that level ever since).


----------



## YNWA14

Yeah sorry @hatterson wasn't meaning it wasn’t interesting. It’s a cool list to look at. 



Chimaera said:


> I think some of Sterling's rank in that is a projection. He's going to get better (though he's pretty close to top form now) and the fact that his transfer hurt Liverpool significantly.



Did it? Liverpool didn’t get any worse and used some of that to buy Firmino who’s been instrumental in Liverpool’s return to the top level.


----------



## Chimaera

I don't think money from Sterling directly led to getting or not getting Firmino. We can argue about whether or not he made a dramatic impact, but 6th to 8th was a drop in points. What is not arguable is that he's presently one of the best players in the world at his position, and at 25, only has a bright future in front of him. Losing a player of his ability (who was arguably one of their most important from the two seasons prior to his move) where he was instrumental to their 2nd place in 13-14, was always going to be a damage to their future.

It's hard to gauge when Liverpool ended up with Klopp, but losing Sterling, one of the best players in the world, to an in league rival is a tough blow.


----------



## YNWA14

Chimaera said:


> I don't think money from Sterling directly led to getting or not getting Firmino. We can argue about whether or not he made a dramatic impact, but 6th to 8th was a drop in points. What is not arguable is that he's presently one of the best players in the world at his position, and at 25, only has a bright future in front of him. Losing a player of his ability (who was arguably one of their most important from the two seasons prior to his move) where he was instrumental to their 2nd place in 13-14, was always going to be a damage to their future.
> 
> It's hard to gauge when Liverpool ended up with Klopp, but losing Sterling, one of the best players in the world, to an in league rival is a tough blow.



You could look at it that way I guess, but at the end of the day had Sterling stayed we wouldn't have one of Salah or Mane, or maybe even Firmino. Sterling is certainly a fantastic player and maybe he would have flourished under Klopp, maybe he wouldn't have, but he certainly improved a lot after going to City and while he always had that talent there's no guarantee he would have had as big an impact for Liverpool as our front 3 have had. I don't consider it a blow; I think it was, in the end, good for both clubs and the player. He didn't want to be at Liverpool and I don't want players at this club who don't respect it and want to play there. If Firmino, Mane or van Dijk asked out tomorrow I would say move them along and find someone else (within reason). It's a bit revisionist for sure, but we've seen how his transfer impacted Liverpool already so we can confirm that it really didn't hurt them.


----------



## Live in the Now

Haven't seen him get mad like this at another manager in a while.


----------



## Savant

Oh my. Reported by Joyce

Everton set to appoint Carlo Ancelotti on £9m-a-year deal


----------



## hatterson

It'll be interesting how he fits.

He's had big success, but he's also had big issues at his last couple stops and hasn't kept a gig for more than 2 seasons since Milan in '09


----------



## Chimaera

I guess he has some bills he needs to pay.


----------



## Savant

hatterson said:


> It'll be interesting how he fits.
> 
> He's had big success, but he's also had big issues at his last couple stops and hasn't kept a gig for more than 2 seasons since Milan in '09



I mean it’s more likely than not a great hire for Everton. I still think this is the move Arsenal should have made; I don’t see much of a difference between Arteta and keeping Freddie. 
That being said what does success at Everton look like for Ancelotti


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Savant said:


> I mean it’s more likely than not a great hire for Everton. I still think this is the move Arsenal should have made; I don’t see much of a difference between Arteta and keeping Freddie.
> That being said what does success at Everton look like for Ancelotti




Maybe I'll eat crow on this, but the difference between Arteta and keeping Freddie is that Arteta has spent the past three years learning under Guardiola to the ends that Man City supposedly viewed him as Pep's natural successor, and Freddie Ljungberg's coaching experience amounted to a few months at Wolfsburg and a few months at Arsenal. That difference seems pretty big to me - keeping Freddie is going the "we're bringing back one of the old boys who knows the club!" while bringing in Arteta is hiring someone who is viewed as having the potential to be a top-level manager.


----------



## Savant

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Maybe I'll eat crow on this, but the difference between Arteta and keeping Freddie is that Arteta has spent the past three years learning under Guardiola to the ends that Man City supposedly viewed him as Pep's natural successor, and Freddie Ljungberg's coaching experience amounted to a few months at Wolfsburg and a few months at Arsenal. That difference seems pretty big to me - keeping Freddie is going the "we're bringing back one of the old boys who knows the club!" while bringing in Arteta is hiring someone who is viewed as having the potential to be a top-level manager.



Sure. That is a legitimate point of view as well, and there will be only one way to see how this works out. If that is the differentiator, are there any other Pep assistants that went on to coach well at a high level? The only one that I can think of is the one that went to MLS to coach NYCFC, but I am not a Pep scholar. It does seem that American sports tend to appoint/promote assistants Into permanent roles more than we see in soccer though. I think Arsenal would have been best getting a more established guy, like Ancelotti to steady the ship. Are Arsenal really going to be able to give Arteta the time he needs? Also, I doubt Arsenal is giving Arteta 9m a season. It would be really be telling if Everton outbid Arsenal on a manager


----------



## AB13

Savant said:


> Sure. That is a legitimate point of view as well, and there will be only one way to see how this works out. If that is the differentiator, are there any other Pep assistants that went on to coach well at a high level? The only one that I can think of is the one that went to MLS to coach NYCFC, but I am not a Pep scholar. It does seem that American sports tend to appoint/promote assistants Into permanent roles more than we see in soccer though. I think Arsenal would have been best getting a more established guy, like Ancelotti to steady the ship. Are Arsenal really going to be able to give Arteta the time he needs? Also, I doubt Arsenal is giving Arteta 9m a season. It would be really be telling if Everton outbid Arsenal on a manager




Erik Ten Hag and Tito Villanova have both worked under Pep and gone on to become elite coaches.


----------



## Pouchkine

Ancelotti should retire this is a complete joke.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

AB13 said:


> Erik Ten Hag and Tito Villanova have both worked under Pep and gone on to become elite coaches.



May he RIP but that’s totally false


----------



## AB13

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> May he RIP but that’s totally false




He was Peps assistant between 2008-2012 wasn't he? Can you explain how that is false? Or do you mean he wasn't an elite coach? I can understand that since he only coached for a year.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Well I thought it was pretty clear but apparently not.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Minomino won't do well in Liverpool. Doesn't fit with their scheme of play.


----------



## Live in the Now

Vancouver Canucks said:


> Minomino won't do well in Liverpool. Doesn't fit with their scheme of play.




But he does so this doesn't make sense? There's a reason the players asked Klopp to sign him.


----------



## YNWA14

Live in the Now said:


> But he does so this doesn't make sense? There's a reason the players asked Klopp to sign him.



He’s talking about Minomino; Minamino’s less talented cousin.


----------



## Chimaera

I mean, a hard working, technical, versatile attacker with pace? Yeah, not a Klopp player. Oh and he seems to be a good teammate, who won’t demand a ton of minutes right away? 

sorry, but for that price, he’s right near perfect. Even if he doesn’t fit, they can sell him for more than they paid


----------



## Savant

Vancouver Canucks said:


> Minomino won't do well in Liverpool. Doesn't fit with their scheme of play.



Why?

Even if he doesn’t, at less than 8m it’s not even a risk. They will at least triple that when they sell him. Probably quadruple it.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

I am not yet drinking the cool aid for Minamino but I must admit that the price is very good for a player like him.

That being said I would be dissapointed if we also don't aim for higher priced star (i.e. Mbappe, Sancho, Werner) that could improve the current core and help Liverpool solidy as a contender for potentially the next decade.


----------



## Savant

JeffreyLFC said:


> I am not yet drinking the cool aid for Minamino but I must admit that the price is very good for a player like him.
> 
> That being said I would be dissapointed if we also don't aim for higher priced star (i.e. Mbappe, Sancho, Werner) that could improve the current core and help Liverpool solidy as a contender for potentially the next decade.



Nike is going to want a major signing. Might have to wait until the summer, but it would be a surprise if it didn’t happen.


----------



## Chimaera

I don't know that they have to have a major signing. They have Virgil in Nike boots. The club has World Class stars up and down the lineup. They won the Champions League. They should win the EPL. They're popular in foreign markets, with one of the biggest fan bases in all the world. The marketing campaign is more based around making Liverpool a brand and linking it with other Nike personalities like Lebron, Drake, Serena, etc. It's similar to what they've done with PSG and the Air Jordan brand. I think they have plenty of options to market and push the off-field brand more so than any particular impact on the pitch. The Club, and Nike to an extent, know that the money for the club to be made is making Liverpool something fashionable to support. That doesn't exactly mean they need to add a star like Sancho (though I do think that's a positive). 

I think money will be certainly be there for a major signing. I think the club scouting and management want to freshen up the side. But I don't know that they have to have one because of Nike, nor would the club force that.


----------



## Burner Account

Live in the Now said:


> Haven't seen him get mad like this at another manager in a while.




Last I remember is Tony Pulis.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Live in the Now said:


> But he does so this doesn't make sense? There's a reason the players asked Klopp to sign him.




Minomino's more of a second striker, and Liverpool already has Salah.


----------



## robertmac43

JeffreyLFC said:


> I am not yet drinking the cool aid for Minamino but I must admit that the price is very good for a player like him.




Such a low risk, high reward situation for Pool. I was hoping Arsenal would made a serious move for him.


----------



## Live in the Now

Posting this for the content and not the title.


----------



## les Habs

Live in the Now said:


> Haven't seen him get mad like this at another manager in a while.





Disgraceful from Klopp. Really don't understand why he sometimes feels the need to emulate Mourinho.


----------



## Cassano

Sad to see a mega talent like him so prone to injury.


----------



## Savant

Liverpool at West Ham (moved due to CWC) will be played on January 29. 
Liverpool is going to have a busy January.


----------



## Cassano

Interesting.


----------



## SJSharks72

Cassano said:


> Interesting.




Obviously Ozil is better because he hasn’t played the last 3 years.


----------



## Cassano

SJSharks39 said:


> Obviously Ozil is better because he hasn’t played the last 3 years.



I think it was Messi, Muller, AdM and Suarez that had more assists than Ozil in the decade


----------



## SJSharks72

Cassano said:


> I think it was Messi, Muller, AdM and Suarez that had more assists than Ozil in the decade



In all honesty, Ozil is one of the best 10s in the world. He just needs to be played as a 10.


----------



## les Habs

Cassano said:


> Interesting.





So Ozil averages 1 more assist every 100 matches.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Ozil was a really good playmaker. Operative word being "was".


----------



## The Abusement Park

Ozil is very clearly one of the best playmakers of all time, just not the greatest.


----------



## Savant

Cassano said:


> Interesting.




Would be interesting to see the distribution of that. Maybe a line graph


----------



## Savant

According to Klopp, it looks like Chamberlain, Fabinho, Lovren and Matip are all out until February; Henderson is fit for tomorrow. 

Bringing Phillips (who Isn’t going to set the PL o fire, but they were ready to use in this role last season) back helps this a bit. It’s not like Klopp to try to force a player in that he will only need for a month, but I would still be looking at a 6, or maybe some fullback cover in January if the opportunity arises. Milner will still be the first “fullback” Off the bench, but besides that the cover is down to Hoever, Phillips and Williams.


----------



## Blender

Edit: Wrong thread.


----------



## PansCyans




----------



## IceColdOx

Burnley is officially Stoke 2.0. Amazed Daniel James isn't on crutches.


----------



## Blender

koyvoo said:


>




I guess losing to a completely rotated Leicester B-squad while fighting against relegation was the final straw.


----------



## hatterson

koyvoo said:


>





They’ve spent like 250m on players in the year and a half he’s been there too.


----------



## Cassano

Blender said:


> I guess losing to a completely rotated Leicester B-squad while fighting against relegation was the final straw.




Moyes, Big Sam or Pulis? Who gets the job?



hatterson said:


> They’ve spent like 250m on players in the year and a half he’s been there too.



They'll get a lot of it back when they sell the likes of Diop, Rice and Anderson to top 6 teams this summer.


----------



## hatterson

Cassano said:


> They'll get a lot of it back when they sell the likes of Diop, Rice and Anderson to top 6 teams this summer.




Diop and Anderson are the only good buys he had.

Formals has been mediocre at best, and Haller has been alright but not worth what they paid.


----------



## Blender

hatterson said:


> Diop and Anderson are the only good buys he had.
> 
> Formals has been mediocre at best, and Haller has been alright but not worth what they paid.



Could be worse, they could have spent £40m on Joelinton instead of £45m on Haller.


----------



## les Habs

hatterson said:


> Diop and Anderson are the only good buys he had.
> 
> Formals has been mediocre at best, and Haller has been alright but not worth what they paid.




Can a different manager get more out of Fornals and Haller though? I'm guessing yes.


----------



## Chimaera

I’m not sure Moyes is that manager.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Chimaera said:


> I’m not sure Moyes is that manager.



He did exactly that with Arnautovic. That said...how uninspired.

I don't think the buys themselves have been all that bad, but Pellegrini has to take responsibility for the way individual player form cratered this season. Anderson and Diop have been awful, but they are good players. Pellegrini was so samn rigid tactically that he just kept doing the same thing with terrible results.

Fornals took a while to acclimate, but he's been very good lately. Yarmolenko really hasn't gotten off the ground because of injuries. The thing that really sunk the season was Fabianski going down. Roberto is easily the worst signing in the PL this season and is directly responsible for at least 4 points dropped.

Also, I really can't blame Haller. Every match he was so isolated and it's no surprise that he played better with Antonio to play off of.


----------



## hatterson

Jersey Fresh said:


> Roberto is easily the worst signing in the PL this season and is directly responsible for at least 4 points dropped.




I'm not really sure what you can expect from a 33 year old free transfer keeper who has never been that good and only been a starter once in the last 7 years and that was for a relegation squad in La Liga


----------



## Jersey Fresh

hatterson said:


> I'm not really sure what you can expect from a 33 year old free transfer keeper who has never been that good and only been a starter once in the last 7 years and that was for a relegation squad in La Liga



Uhhh...exactly the point? Not finding a competent backup for Adrian was a huge mistake.

Calling him the worst signing in the league is hyperbolic, but few signings in the league can legitimately be directly tied to such a drop in the table.


----------



## Live in the Now

I think he is the worst though. Especially taking into consideration that the guy they released had such a large impact on a team at the top of the table. Replacing good with complete bum is not a good thing.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Live in the Now said:


> I think he is the worst though. Especially taking into consideration that the guy they released had such a large impact on a team at the top of the table. Replacing good with complete bum is not a good thing.



They didn't release Adrian, though. He didn't want to be a backup and wouldn't sign...and then signed on at much higher wages to backup at Liverpool.


----------



## hatterson

If you’re looking at the entire process of the signing (identifying a need, identifying a target, then signing him) I’d agree it’s either the worst or right up there.

My point was just that he hasn’t underperformed any reasonable expectation of him.

They signed a bad backup and got a bad backup. The issue was with someone thinking he was an acceptable backup not with him playing poor per se.


----------



## S E P H

koyvoo said:


>




Still produced one of the best gifs ever...





EPL is too much for him, Serie A would be much easier to get his managerial career back on track.


----------



## S E P H

Also gotta love Rebecca Lowe


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich




----------



## M2Beezy

Hi guys, this may not be the best forum but got a neighbors family visiting from Mexico and want to watch the Mexican soccer final game today between Monterey and America. Anyone know if theres a way to stream the game? I live in Vancouver Canada


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Neddam ot Sehguh said:


> Hi guys, this may not be the best forum but got a neighbors family visiting from Mexico and want to watch the Mexican soccer final game today between Monterey and America. Anyone know if theres a way to stream the game? I live in Vancouver Canada




It's on Fox Deportes in the USA. Google "Fox Deportes Stream" or something similar to that. You'll find plenty of links to that TV Channel.


----------



## YNWA14

Look at the full twitter thread on this one:


----------



## hatterson




----------



## hatterson

Also, lol


----------



## gary69

Top scorers for current Premier League clubs for the past decade:

Aguero at 174, Kane 136, Rooney 104, Vardy 97, Hazard 85, Giroud 73, Suarez 69.

Plenty of clubs' top scorers have relatively low number of goals in the 20s to 40s, so it's been a revolving door for attackers and clubs staying in the league and/or as starters for a couple of seasons. 


I doubt we'll see anyone this decade scoring the same amount of goals than Aguero did. Playing more than 250 games, so being a regular starter for a top offensive team for almost the whole 10 years.

Premier League top goalscorers of the decade: Every club | Squawka


----------



## Aladyyn

I would bet on Rashford scoring 150+ this decade


----------



## Jersey Fresh

gary69 said:


> Top scorers for current Premier League clubs for the past decade:
> 
> Aguero at 174, Kane 136, Rooney 104, Vardy 97, Hazard 85, Giroud 73, Suarez 69.
> 
> Plenty of clubs' top scorers have relatively low number of goals in the 20s to 40s, so it's been a revolving door for attackers and clubs staying in the league and/or as starters for a couple of seasons.
> 
> 
> I doubt we'll see anyone this decade scoring the same amount of goals than Aguero did. Playing more than 250 games, so being a regular starter for a top offensive team for almost the whole 10 years.
> 
> Premier League top goalscorers of the decade: Every club | Squawka



Mark Noble...jesus. Goes to show how bereft West Ham have been at striker.


----------



## Savant

Jersey Fresh said:


> Mark Noble...jesus. Goes to show how bereft West Ham have been at striker.



A lot of Nobles goals must be PKs too....


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Savant said:


> A lot of Nobles goals must be PKs too....



Yeah. Especially when he dives like he did today.


----------



## les Habs

gary69 said:


> Top scorers for current Premier League clubs for the past decade:
> 
> Aguero at 174, Kane 136, Rooney 104, Vardy 97, Hazard 85, Giroud 73, Suarez 69.
> 
> Plenty of clubs' top scorers have relatively low number of goals in the 20s to 40s, so it's been a revolving door for attackers and clubs staying in the league and/or as starters for a couple of seasons.
> 
> 
> I doubt we'll see anyone this decade scoring the same amount of goals than Aguero did. Playing more than 250 games, so being a regular starter for a top offensive team for almost the whole 10 years.
> 
> Premier League top goalscorers of the decade: Every club | Squawka




And to think of how often Aguero is injured. Anyway, this just highlights how good Vardy's record is and how little credit he's got in comparison to the company he keeps here.

I would think that if Kane can stay fit and stays put (in the league) he could match his 136 goals.


----------



## Blender

les Habs said:


> And to think of how often Aguero is injured. Anyway, this just highlights how good Vardy's record is and how little credit he's got in comparison to the company he keeps here.
> 
> I would think that if Kane can stay fit and stays put (in the league) he could match his 136 goals.



Where Vardy really doesn't get credit is for how good he is off the ball. No one presses as well or makes the runs perfectly off of defender's shoulders as well as he does in the Premier League. His composure and ability allow him to put his chances in the net, but the reason he gets so many great chances is his work off the ball.


----------



## les Habs

Blender said:


> Where Vardy really doesn't get credit is for how good he is off the ball. No one presses as well or makes the runs perfectly off of defender's shoulders as well as he does in the Premier League. His composure and ability allow him to put his chances in the net, but the reason he gets so many great chances is his work off the ball.




Couldn't agree more. I was just commenting on his goal tally which all things considered including the company he keeps there doesn't really get recognized.


----------



## Savant

Vardy is great but Aguero is the best PL Striker of all time.


----------



## les Habs

Savant said:


> Vardy is great but Aguero is the best PL Striker of all time.




No one was making a comparison.


----------



## hatterson

Savant said:


> Vardy is great but Aguero is the best PL Striker of all time.




That seems pretty obvious, but if you’re listing “best strikers of the 2010s” how many people have Vardy in their top 10, much less top 5


----------



## hatterson

gary69 said:


> Top scorers for current Premier League clubs for the past decade:
> 
> Aguero at 174, Kane 136, Rooney 104, Vardy 97, Hazard 85, Giroud 73, Suarez 69.
> 
> Plenty of clubs' top scorers have relatively low number of goals in the 20s to 40s, so it's been a revolving door for attackers and clubs staying in the league and/or as starters for a couple of seasons.
> 
> 
> I doubt we'll see anyone this decade scoring the same amount of goals than Aguero did. Playing more than 250 games, so being a regular starter for a top offensive team for almost the whole 10 years.
> 
> Premier League top goalscorers of the decade: Every club | Squawka




I think the only one with a real shot right now is Abraham, although that’s incredibly low percentage. Sterling with an outside shot if City can continue being an offensive juggernaut.

The rest of the top 6 strikers are either too old (Kane, Auba, Liverpool’s front) or not good enough (Jesus, Martial, Rashford)

Beyond that it would take either a big signing or one of the youngsters to develop like crazy (Greenwood, Martinelli, etc)


----------



## Chimaera

I always wonder what might have been if Vardy made a move after the title season. He stayed when he didn't have to, but it would have been interesting to see him in La Liga or something like that.


----------



## Savant

Harry Kane is our until March with a torn hamstring. Good thing Tottenham is better without him.


----------



## les Habs

Savant said:


> Harry Kane is our until March with a torn hamstring. Good thing Tottenham is better without him.




Ouch. Wonder if Jose Moans about a January signing.


----------



## Savant

les Habs said:


> Ouch. Wonder if Jose Moans about a January signing.



I mean, I’m sure he will. It will be interesting to see if Levy complies. They are much better off leading their line with Son though


----------



## hatterson




----------



## Savant

hatterson said:


>




If it makes you feel better, I remember when Stewart Downing had one of these


----------



## YNWA14




----------



## Michigan

Chelsea lost 96.6 million pounds last year. Hatterson would do a better job. No sarcasm.

I'm watchin the C Cup at 3 on ESPN+.


----------



## hatterson

Bogart said:


> Chelsea lost 96.6 million pounds last year. Hatterson would do a better job. No sarcasm.
> 
> I'm watchin the C Cup at 3 on ESPN+.




They made like 70M the year before and will likely have a large profit for this year given they sold Hazard and couldn't spend to replace him.


----------



## bleedblue1223

hatterson said:


> They made like 70M the year before and will likely have a large profit for this year given they sold Hazard and couldn't spend to replace him.



Right, just with companies, looking at 1 specific year doesn't give you the full picture. If you really want a full financial health picture, you have to look at a minimum of 3 years, and usually at least 5 IMO.

With Chelsea specifically, you have to also look at future inevitable sales in Morata and Bakayoko, Morata's is going to be official in the summer. There are a few others on loan that will collect a decent chunk of change collectively.


----------



## bleedblue1223

On the negative side to Chelsea's financials, they've spent over 90M to managers that they have fired since 2004, and 26.6M just over Conte situation. The Conte situation includes legal fees. 

That 90M is just in unearned compensation, not what they earned while they were managers.


----------



## Chimaera

It's also a bunch of money that's being given to them by their owner. At some point, he's going to take the money back out.


----------



## Blender

Chimaera said:


> It's also a bunch of money that's being given to them by their owner. At some point, he's going to take the money back out.



Uh no, as far as I'm aware he hasn't put any money into the club in years. The club still technically owes one of his companies money in the form of a loan, on top of all his equity, so if he ever sold he could also start collecting on his load, but I don't believe he's poured money into the club in 5 or 6 years now.


----------



## Chimaera

Blender said:


> Uh no, as far as I'm aware he hasn't put any money into the club in years. The club still technically owes one of his companies money in the form of a loan, on top of all his equity, so if he ever sold he could also start collecting on his load, but I don't believe he's poured money into the club in 5 or 6 years now.



It’s literally in the second line of the article. They’re still highly reliant on funding from his pockets. They put in 247 million pounds last season. 

Chelsea’s sacking of Antonio Conte cost club £26.6m, accounts reveal


----------



## Blender

Chimaera said:


> It’s literally in the second line of the article. They’re still highly reliant on funding from his pockets. They put in 247 million pounds last season.
> 
> Chelsea’s sacking of Antonio Conte cost club £26.6m, accounts reveal



That's misleading, it's financing to cover operating expenses, it's not just straight cash for them to spend. They still owe money on players they have bought and haven't been fully paid for ones they have sold more recently. That he finances the club through his holding company with loans is what allows them to do whatever business they want without worrying about how it hits their balance sheet year to year, but Chelsea also pays down loans every year as part of their expenses.


----------



## SSF

so him and his holding company/whatever mechanism he chooses to use paying operating expenses doesnt count as the owner having to put money into the club? 

got it


----------



## Chimaera

I mean, it’s not that misleading. He has to put in money to offset the balance sheet, and he had to do more this past season.


----------



## bleedblue1223

In shocker of the century, owner invests money in thing he owns.


----------



## Chimaera

Except at some point, he is going to take the money back out. 

It's not completely surprising, but it just shows how much of a house of cards Chelsea kinda is. If he takes his funding, they're not an elite club anymore.


----------



## Havre

Of course it is. Not that I would worry much if I were a Chelsea fan. When Roman gets tired of it he'll sell it to someone just as rich. The way football works these days a posh London club will always be attractive.

I don't believe Roman will ever "take the money back out". Whenever he sells the club he'll get his money back and more (based on total loans vs. value of the club). Him starting to drain the club for money Glazer-style I find rather unlikely.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Chimaera said:


> Except at some point, he is going to take the money back out.
> 
> It's not completely surprising, but it just shows how much of a house of cards Chelsea kinda is. If he takes his funding, they're not an elite club anymore.




When you look at multiple years, you see big profits in some years, that's why you have to look at the bigger picture in terms of finances. He bought the club for 140M and it is now worth 2+B. He's already gained a ton of equity and will those gains will be realized when he decides to sell.

It's not anywhere close to a house of cards.


----------



## Savant

So crazy things are going on at Everton right now.



More info in tweets. Less violent version of what happened at Sporting.

Liverpool broke them


----------



## bleedblue1223

In the early 2010s, it looked like Everton might be a club that could hang with the big boys. Tottenham was right with them on that path too, but man those clubs have gone in 2 different directions.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

I dont think Roman Abramovich bought Chelsea with the idea that it would be a profitable business. That’s generally been the difference between Arab/Russian mega-rich guys and the American sports ownership groups. The former are buying toys, the latter are buying businesses with all the expectations that go along with that.


----------



## gary69

Havre said:


> Of course it is. Not that I would worry much if I were a Chelsea fan. When Roman gets tired of it he'll sell it to someone just as rich. The way football works these days a posh London club will always be attractive.
> 
> I don't believe Roman will ever "take the money back out". Whenever he sells the club he'll get his money back and more (based on total loans vs. value of the club). Him starting to drain the club for money Glazer-style I find rather unlikely.




That seems likely.

Roman reportedly turned down a 2 billion offer from Jim Ratcliffe, since he didn't want to sell (yet). Roman probably would like to leave his mark in the club history with the new stadium project (estimated cost around 1 billion), but if that's still stuck far into this decade he might eventually sell the club. Either way, he'll probably get his all his invested money back (at least nominally) when he finally solds the club.


----------



## Dingle

Lets Chelsea drown in debt. let Man United, Man City, Arsenal, etc. drown in debt and in mediocrity for eternity. Who cares.

27 years of waiting...and all that is behind me..


----------



## SJSharks72

Dingle said:


> Lets Chelsea drown in debt. let Man United, Man City, Arsenal, etc. drown in debt and in mediocrity for eternity. Who cares.
> 
> 27 years of waiting...and all that is behind me..



You sound a little bitter


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Especially since Liverpool's foundations are really not all that better. Owned by Americans who want ROI, good primarily because of a generational manager without whom they'd suddenly look structurally no better than any of those clubs.


----------



## Dingle

SJSharks39 said:


> You sound a little bitter




27 years in the EPL. 3 years prior to that. So 30 years..I am not bitter, I am way past that.


----------



## Blender

Chimaera said:


> Except at some point, he is going to take the money back out.
> 
> It's not completely surprising, but it just shows how much of a house of cards Chelsea kinda is. If he takes his funding, they're not an elite club anymore.



He already does take money out, Chelsea paid £53.5m this year and £88.669m last year in debt repayments, and their only creditor is Abramovich's holding company. They are obligated to pay out another £122m this year. Yes they put a lot more money in this year than what was pulled out in order to cover operating expenses, but that isn't the case every year. As @bleedblue1223 keeps saying, you have to look long term not just at the balance sheet for one year.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Especially since Liverpool's foundations are really not all that better. Owned by Americans who want ROI, good primarily because of a generational manager without whom they'd suddenly look structurally no better than any of those clubs.



I am a Liverpool fan and I agree. 

If anything Liverpool is very far from being that well financially at least nothing comparable to what they achieve to be (better than United and City)

The good: They are finally winning and getting constant Champion League revenues.
The bad: They have Klopp who is touching gold but it has an expiry date. He will eventually move on.
The ugly: Liverpool is not London or even a Manchester financially (very far!) and although they are very passionate they cannot afford to pay that much to see their favorite team.

Add a couple bad seasons without CL football and Liverpool could again fall back behind the other top 5 teams (yes even lower than Spurs with their new stadium).


----------



## Live in the Now

That is pretty much literally the worst opinion I have read here in a while. There's no reason to think there will be bad seasons compared to any other team anytime soon. There is however every reason to think that the club can compete and win while saving money for the inevitable day that they have to buy a new team. Why is there reason to believe that? Because they just did it. There is also great reason to think that Lijnders will be more than capable of taking Klopp's position when he leaves.

The team didn't get this way over the course of one day and it doesn't all end in one day, but if you worry about something that can happen ten years from now, literally anything can happen ten years from now and we might all be dead. We don't know if Brexit will crash the pound leading to chairmen pulling their money out of the league, we don't know if Brexit will lead to teams becoming more English and worse, we don't know if this will lead to potential foreign owners putting their money in because it's more advantageous to them to finally own a team. We know nothing about the future. The future is unstable and anything could happen. The ice caps could melt. Then what about football? What matters as far as the football pitch goes is right now.



TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Especially since Liverpool's foundations are really not all that better. Owned by Americans who want ROI, good primarily because of a generational manager without whom they'd suddenly look structurally no better than any of those clubs.




This was, however, a very large reason why they signed that manager. Rodgers made a conscious decision not to use any of the tools available to him as he did not believe in them. Klopp, on the other hand, has spoken about how impressed he was with the efficient manner in which attention to detail was paid. Specifically how someone could relay the stats of every Dortmund game back to him and how the person's statistical model showed that he never should have been in position to need to leave.

Every player, both good and bad, has also been signed by these standards. Fortunately only Karius was well and truly bad.


----------



## Havre

Racial comments? That is quite a accusation. Please explain.


----------



## Live in the Now

Havre said:


> Racial comments? That is quite a accusation. Please explain.




You think everyone forgot about you saying "sand money"? Nobody forgot I assure you of that. It’s one of the most strange things I’ve read here. That other posters have been chased off while comments like that stand is frankly rather bizarre. If I get in trouble for saying that, so be it.

I would rather not derail this thread worse so you can have the last word, I will not be responding to you.


----------



## Live in the Now

Chimaera said:


> Except at some point, he is going to take the money back out.
> 
> It's not completely surprising, but it just shows how much of a house of cards Chelsea kinda is. If he takes his funding, they're not an elite club anymore.




All that will happen is he sells the team for a lot of money and gets it back that way. Whoever takes over will have a ton of money. Before revenue exploded there was a chance of things going badly. Now there is not.


----------



## Havre

Live in the Now said:


> You think everyone forgot about you saying "sand money"? Nobody forgot I assure you of that. It’s one of the most strange things I’ve read here. That other posters have been chased off while comments like that stand is frankly rather bizarre. If I get in trouble for saying that, so be it.
> 
> I would rather not derail this thread worse so you can have the last word, I will not be responding to you.




This really is some special kind of stupid.

First of all it is clearly playing on "oil money". Would it be racist if I called money from New Zealand "fjord money" or money from Spain "sun money"?

You might think it is silly. I got no issue with that. You disagreeing with something is more a stamp of approval if anything. Implying it is "racial comments" (whatever that means - is "racial comments" the same as racism? I honestly don't know) it quite something else.


----------



## Chimaera

Live in the Now said:


> All that will happen is he sells the team for a lot of money and gets it back that way. Whoever takes over will have a ton of money. Before revenue exploded there was a chance of things going badly. Now there is not.




their revenues aren't balancing the books. That's my only point. That might lead to some FFP issues, if it ever actually was enforced. Similarly, the new stadium could lump even more debt on the club. 


As for where Liverpool end up, they have higher revenue potential with regards to overseas markets. Might not balance everything, but I don't think they end up going backwards that far with money, as long as they stay competitive and keep adding top players. Some of that's Klopp, but some of it is also recruitment.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Chimaera said:


> their revenues aren't balancing the books. That's my only point. That might lead to some FFP issues, if it ever actually was enforced. Similarly, the new stadium could lump even more debt on the club.




For that single year, they had profits in previous years and will this next year.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Not sure if anyone saw, but Fabregas had a Q&A on twitter and was asked what his favorite EPL goal was, and he said every goal against Spurs. LOL.


----------



## Havre

There was a period when he was just unplayable against Spurs. Certainly among the "worst" players for Spurs to play against over the last 20-30 years. Not saying he didn't have a great career, but after that 09/10-season I expected him to go on to be the best midfield player in the world - that never happened.


----------



## Cassano

Havre said:


> There was a period when he was just unplayable against Spurs. Certainly among the "worst" players for Spurs to play against over the last 20-30 years. Not saying he didn't have a great career, but after that 09/10-season I expected him to go on to be the best midfield player in the world - that never happened.



Going to Barca was a terrible career move.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Cassano said:


> Going to Barca was a terrible career move.



It was pretty obvious at the time too. He and barca were thinking with their hearts rather than their mind. That SOB cost us Thiago.


----------



## PansCyans

Thoughts?


----------



## hatterson

For a guy who supposedly spends his whole time running around trying to kick people he's only picked up 6 yellows in 48 PL matches and 0 reds in his senior career.


----------



## SJSharks72

koyvoo said:


> Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 305711



He’s wrong and has never watched McTominay play.


----------



## les Habs

koyvoo said:


> Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 305711




You like to post controversial things and Paul Parker is an idiot? Whether a club of United's stature should rely on McTominay for one of their most important starters is one thing, but he's actually contributed a LOT more than just kicking people and thumping the badge. In an ideal World for United, McTominay is a homegrown starter/important squad player in a team that matches United's historic stature. United could spend a billion and you could hand pick the manager and McTominay would still be a player in that squad.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

He's better than a lot of the junk that Ferguson put on the pitch and got results out of in his last few seasons.


----------



## Cassano

How the Premier League table would look if every refereeing decision was correct


----------



## hatterson

Cassano said:


> How the Premier League table would look if every refereeing decision was correct




I'm immediately skeptical of how they did this given that in their bit about Arsenal they say this


> Most recently, if Chelsea's Jorginho had been sent off for a second yellow-card offence when Arsenal were in front then the Gunners would have gone on to win the game to give new boss Mikel Arteta some festive cheer on his home debut.



And make no mention that Guendouzi would have been off in the middle of the first half if every decision was correct.


----------



## bleedblue1223

hatterson said:


> I'm immediately skeptical of how they did this given that in their bit about Arsenal they say this
> 
> And make no mention that Guendouzi would have been off in the middle of the first half if every decision was correct.




Yeah, and you can just assume results based on decisions like that. The entire dynamics of the game change based on difference events occurring.


----------



## Cassano

hatterson said:


> I'm immediately skeptical of how they did this given that in their bit about Arsenal they say this
> 
> And make no mention that *Guendouzi would have been off in the middle of the first half if every decision was correct*.



That is not true.


----------



## hatterson

Cassano said:


> That is not true.




lol. His pullback on Abraham is a yellow every day of the week.

It should have also been a penalty given the contact extended to the line.


----------



## Cassano

hatterson said:


> lol. His pullback on Abraham is a yellow every day of the week.
> 
> It should have also been a penalty given the contact extended to the line.



Forgot he was on a yellow Lol. Forgot about that play, definitely a pen.


----------



## Blender

hatterson said:


> I'm immediately skeptical of how they did this given that in their bit about Arsenal they say this
> 
> And make no mention that Guendouzi would have been off in the middle of the first half if every decision was correct.



Countless example like this, but it looks like they only focused on the ones that fans got upset about on twitter.


----------



## Blender

With the loss of Hazard, a transfer embargo, and all the injuries we've had, I would call this a pretty great outcome for Lampard so far compared with how the previous 2 managers fared against the same clubs.


----------



## Juve

Is it me or this season Eriksen looks like he's dead inside?


----------



## AB13

Juve said:


> Is it me or this season does Eriksen looks like he's dead inside?




Playing for Spurs usually has that effect on players.


----------



## Chimaera

Juve said:


> Is it me or this season Eriksen looks like he's dead inside?



He did basically come out and say he wanted to go and that he was finished with Spurs. Some players don’t do as well after those statements.


----------



## Blender

Chelsea have had more goals scored by 21 and under players this year, than in the previous decade combined. Pays to play your youth I guess.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

wrong thread


----------



## spintheblackcircle

The bummer about the Spurs game yesterday is that I am 100% satisfied with it. Even at home, playing the best team in the world, you will need the breaks to get a result and Spurs got no breaks. How that wasn't a straight red against Robertson is beyond me.

But the youngsters looked good. They were clearly 2nd best but had they got a point out of it, it wouldn't have been totally against run of play.


----------



## Savant

spintheblackcircle said:


> The bummer about the Spurs game yesterday is that I am 100% satisfied with it. Even at home, playing the best team in the world, you will need the breaks to get a result and Spurs got no breaks. How that wasn't a straight red against Robertson is beyond me.
> 
> But the youngsters looked good. They were clearly 2nd best but had they got a point out of it, it wouldn't have been totally against run of play.



Not even close to a Red Card for Robertson. Stop it.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

So Kun will probably end up 2nd when he retires. Criminally underrated.


----------



## hatterson

3rd is basically guaranteed, 2nd if he plays 2 more years.

The fact that's he so far ahead of the others on that list in terms of goal per game is ridiculous.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

spintheblackcircle said:


> The bummer about the Spurs game yesterday is that I am 100% satisfied with it. Even at home, playing the best team in the world, you will need the breaks to get a result and Spurs got no breaks. How that wasn't a straight red against Robertson is beyond me.
> 
> But the youngsters looked good. They were clearly 2nd best but had they got a point out of it, it wouldn't have been totally against run of play.



If this is a red card then any 50/50 play should become a red card. It is that ridiculous to claim that this play should be a red card.

He got the ball first and both players were going for the ball.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> So Kun will probably end up 2nd when he retires. Criminally underrated.




Agreed he is so good and consistent.


----------



## Savant

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> So Kun will probably end up 2nd when he retires. Criminally underrated.




Best striker in PL history in my opinion


----------



## The Abusement Park

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> So Kun will probably end up 2nd when he retires. Criminally underrated.





Is he underrated? I feel like he's always considered the best PL striker ever. Or at least in the conversation.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

I don’t know he’s seldom talked about on here or outside amongst various footballing pundits.


----------



## Live in the Now

We say that about pretty much every City player because nobody cares about City.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Live in the Now said:


> We say that about pretty much every City player because nobody cares about City.



Makes sense


----------



## Cassano

Savant said:


> Best striker in PL history in my opinion



Hell nah. Henry was clearly better.

Henry: 258 Apps 175 Goals 74 Assists
Aguero: 255 Apps 177 Goals 46 Assists


----------



## Live in the Now

Cassano said:


> Hell nah. Henry was clearly better.
> 
> Henry: 258 Apps 175 Goals 74 Assists
> Aguero: 255 Apps 177 Goals 46 Assists




Trophies make up some of the distance imo. It's close, but considering it was harder to score in Henry's era, he was better.


----------



## Cassano

Live in the Now said:


> Trophies make up some of the distance imo. It's close.



Well it's 2 PL titles vs. 4 of them, nothing too lopsided like the Utd guys with 11 PL titles Lol


----------



## Cassano

Live in the Now said:


> We say that about pretty much every City player because nobody cares about City.



It's a bit of a shame in a way that they get unrecognized. There is not a midfielder I've seen as dominant as Toure in the PL for example.

Hell, his own club refused to give him a birthday cake!


----------



## S E P H

Live in the Now said:


> Trophies make up some of the distance imo. It's close, but considering it was harder to score in Henry's era, he was better.



How about this for a stat...

Arsenal with Henry went further in the CL than Man City has with Aguero....


----------



## AB13

Nigerian billionare Aliko Dangote has said he will buy Arsenal from Stan Kroenke in the near future. Getting Kroenke out would be up there as one of the best moments in our history, he is one of the worst owners in all of sports.


----------



## Savant

Cassano said:


> Hell nah. Henry was clearly better.
> 
> Henry: 258 Apps 175 Goals 74 Assists
> Aguero: 255 Apps 177 Goals 46 Assists



Those are top two for sure.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Cassano said:


> Hell nah. Henry was clearly better.
> 
> Henry: 258 Apps 175 Goals 74 Assists
> Aguero: 255 Apps 177 Goals 46 Assists




Mmm I’m not sure. I definitely don’t think it’s clear who’s better of the two, but I would agree they’re the top 2.


----------



## bleedblue1223

I wouldn't say Aguero is underrated, he's always been highly regarded, there just aren't any City fans on this board.


----------



## Chimaera

There aren't a lot in general.


----------



## AB13

Who would want to support the embodiment of what is wrong with modern football anyway?


----------



## bleedblue1223

AB13 said:


> Who would want to support the embodiment of what is wrong with modern football anyway?



It's not like the time before City and Chelsea were much better when parity was lost and the pre-established big clubs would dominate.

It's why I hope Leicester keeps hold of their stars and becomes a consistent top 4 contender. For different reasons, clubs are breaking up the old-guard, and hopefully some get there and stay there more organically like Leicester has.


----------



## AB13

bleedblue1223 said:


> It's not like the time before City and Chelsea were much better when parity was lost and the pre-established big clubs would dominate.
> 
> It's why I hope Leicester keeps hold of their stars and becomes a consistent top 4 contender. For different reasons, clubs are breaking up the old-guard, and hopefully some get there and stay there more organically like Leicester has.




Seeing new clubs do well every once in a while can be refreshing, but not if they win the league by paying ridiculous amounts of expensive players, which means more historic clubs don’t win.

Personally, I like too see the historically successful clubs with the biggest fanbases to remain on top for the most part. To use recent examples, when historic clubs like AC Milan, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man United , Hamburg, Leeds and Villa become an absolute shell of their former selves, it pains me to see the suffering within the fanbase (besides United, please suck forever). When clubs like Leipzig play in the Bundesliga instead of clubs like Hamburg, it feels unfair to the fans of those clubs, and hurts to see. When clubs like Cardiff, Huddersfield, Bournemouth and Swansea play in the Prem instead of much larger clubs like Villa, Forrest, Newcastle and Leeds, I don’t particularly enjoy it.

I love too see small club cinderella stories once in a while, but when clubs built on cash injections like City and Chelsea consistently win Premier Leagues instead of long term historic clubs like Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool, it feels completely wrong.


----------



## bleedblue1223

AB13 said:


> Seeing new clubs do well every once in a while can be refreshing, but not if they win the league by paying ridiculous amounts of expensive players, which means more historic clubs don’t win.
> 
> Personally, I like too see the historically successful clubs with the biggest fanbases to remain on top for the most part. To use recent examples, when historic clubs like AC Milan, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man United , Hamburg, Leeds and Villa become an absolute shell of their former selves, it pains me to see the suffering within the fanbase (besides United, please suck forever). When clubs like Leipzig play in the Bundesliga instead of clubs like Hamburg, it feels unfair to the fans of those clubs, and hurts to see. When clubs like Cardiff, Huddersfield, Bournemouth and Swansea play in the Prem instead of much larger clubs like Villa, Forrest, Newcastle and Leeds, I don’t particularly enjoy it.
> 
> I love too see small club cinderella stories once in a while, but when clubs built on cash injections like City and Chelsea consistently win Premier Leagues instead of long term historic clubs like Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool, it feels completely wrong.



In other words, fans of traditional clubs should always enjoy winning, and screw those fans that chose small clubs. 

I'd love if all clubs had the financial muscle to retain the talent they develop and clubs would win based on their own success.


----------



## AB13

bleedblue1223 said:


> In other words, fans of traditional clubs should always enjoy winning, and screw those fans that chose small clubs.
> 
> I'd love if all clubs had the financial muscle to retain the talent they develop and clubs would win based on their own success.




Not really what I am saying, I like to see small clubs succeed every once in a while, but for the most part, I think fans of traditonal clubs should enjoy winning more, yes. I admire when small clubs win based on building from within, but if a smaller club like Leipzig, Chelsea or City suddenly begins winning a lot due to massive cash injections, I think it is a bit tragic. Although I prefer it to be as I described, I don’t have as large of an issue with clubs like Bournemouth being better than Villa, that is mostly my nostalgic self talking.

I would like the second paragraph to happen too, I think many people consider that ideal.


----------



## Cassano

The Abusement Park said:


> Mmm I’m not sure. I definitely don’t think it’s clear who’s better of the two, but I would agree they’re the top 2.



He scored at nearly the same rate + way better facilitator in a lower scoring era. It's a clear 1.

Cmon guys, I know Arsenal isn't thought of fondly on this board but cut the BS.

For me, Aguero isn't even the best foreign player to play for City. I'll take David Silva.

For peak, I will take Toure.


----------



## hatterson

Cassano said:


> For me, Aguero isn't even the best foreign player to play for City. I'll take David Silva.




I have Aguero higher, but I also think De Bruyne will be better than both if he finishes his career at City.


----------



## Cassano

hatterson said:


> I have Aguero higher, but I also think De Bruyne will be better than both if he finishes his career at City.



I think it is inevitable that they win the CL in the next few years. The best player on that team when it happens I think will be their GOAT.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Kun is definitely better than Silva who is underrated himself.


----------



## Cassano

It is natural to believe the top scorer and assist provider is the best player, but City has maybe 4-5 guys that can take the title as their best player with argument for each player. 

I think this can be said about every top 6 club in the PL era except Liverpool with Gerrard and Arsenal with Henry. 

For Utd you can choose Scholes, Giggs or Ronaldo and none of them are the wrong answer.
Chelsea with Terry, Lampard or Drogba,
Tottenham with Kane, Lloris or Bale.
City with Silva, Aguero, Toure and KdB.


----------



## Aladyyn

Cassano said:


> For Utd you can choose Scholes, Giggs or Ronaldo and none of them are the wrong answer.



All of them are the wrong answer. Giggs has a case based on sheer longevity I guess but he was never really "the guy" at any point.

Rooney, Cantona, Keane


----------



## hatterson

Ronaldo doesn't have a remote argument for best United player.

You knew he had an absolute truckload of talent and would be one of the very best in the world/ever, but he really only had 1 world class season at United.


----------



## Cassano

hatterson said:


> Ronaldo doesn't have a remote argument for best United player.
> 
> You knew he had an absolute truckload of talent and would be one of the very best in the world/ever, but he really only had 1 world class season at United.



He had a 3 yr peak with them with top 3 in Ballon D'Or voting. I think based on that, he could have an argument. Not sure if any other Utd player was on that level of recognition. 

Forgot about Rooney, Keane and Cantona Lol.


----------



## AB13

Cassano said:


> It is natural to believe the top scorer and assist provider is the best player, but City has maybe 4-5 guys that can take the title as their best player with argument for each player.
> 
> I think this can be said about every top 6 club in the PL era except Liverpool with Gerrard and Arsenal with Henry.
> 
> For Utd you can choose Scholes, Giggs or Ronaldo and none of them are the wrong answer.
> Chelsea with Terry, Lampard or Drogba,
> Tottenham with Kane, Lloris or Bale.
> City with Silva, Aguero, Toure and KdB.




Drogba scored over 12 PL goals twice in nine seasons, he isn’t on the same planet as Terry and Lampard. He wasn’t anything special in bringing others into play either. Possibly the most overrated player in Premier League history, because he scored in every big game.


----------



## hatterson

Cassano said:


> He had a 3 yr peak with them with top 3 in Ballon D'Or voting. I think based on that, he could have an argument. Not sure if any other Utd player was on that level of recognition.
> 
> Forgot about Rooney, Keane and Cantona Lol.




It was really the latter half of 2007 and 2008 where he his his stride, so I guess that counts as 2 seasons. It still wasn't long enough to qualify him as best ever for United.


----------



## S E P H

AB13 said:


> Nigerian billionare Aliko Dangote has said he will buy Arsenal from Stan Kroenke in the near future. Getting Kroenke out would be up there as one of the best moments in our history, he is one of the worst owners in all of sports.



Kroenke just bought Arsenal, I would be beyond shocked if he sells. You're still out to lunch, worst owner in all of sports is hilariously inaccurate. He's just a very hands off owner that trusts mediocre people.


----------



## AB13

S E P H said:


> Kroenke just bought Arsenal, I would be beyond shocked if he sells. You're still out to lunch, worst owner in all of sports is hilariously inaccurate. He's just a very hands off owner that trusts mediocre people.




He is the only owner in the english football league to not invest a single penny into the club. He always looks for the cheapest option, the club went from the best in the world to were we are now under him, mostly because of him, and a smaller wage and transfer budget than the other top 6 clubs.


----------



## S E P H

AB13 said:


> He is the only owner in the english football league to not invest a single penny into the club. He always looks for the cheapest option, the club went from the best in the world to were we are now under him, mostly because of him, and a smaller wage and transfer budget than the other top 6 clubs.



The club went from best to worst when we moved from Highbury to the Emirates and had to pay off the stadium, now we're stuck like in purgatory. Arsenal NEVER had a big transfer or wage budget, Arsenal's best days came from Wenger finding gems and redemption projects way before Kroenke bought the team. Actually, Arsenal under Wenger never really spent loads of money because he trusted his players too much (it was his downfall). However, Kroenke has shelled out money for Oezil, Sanchez, Auba, Lacazette, Pepe, and others so cheapest option is not true.

I don't think you're entirely wrong mate, I don't think Kroenke knows there is a big difference between sports clubs in NA compared to Europe - at times he is out of his realm no doubt -, but there are inaccuracies in your logic.


----------



## Jussi

Old Trafford - Manchester United 10272 | Creator Expert | Buy online at the Official LEGO® Shop US


----------



## AB13

S E P H said:


> The club went from best to worst when we moved from Highbury to the Emirates and had to pay off the stadium, now we're stuck like in purgatory. Arsenal NEVER had a big transfer or wage budget, Arsenal's best days came from Wenger finding gems and redemption projects way before Kroenke bought the team. Actually, Arsenal under Wenger never really spent loads of money because he trusted his players too much (it was his downfall). However, Kroenke has shelled out money for Oezil, Sanchez, Auba, Lacazette, Pepe, and others so cheapest option is not true.
> 
> I don't think you're entirely wrong mate, I don't think Kroenke knows there is a big difference between sports clubs in NA compared to Europe - at times he is out of his realm no doubt -, but there are inaccuracies in your logic.




Well, with an ambitious owner, we could afford to spend heavily and pay off the stadium. We spent more under David Dein in comparison to what we do now, and the whole reason Dein sold the club was because Kroenke promised larger investment in the club Dein loves so much, something silent Stan has not lived up to at all.

Wenger wasn’t responsible for the lack of investment, I think, since we spent heavier under Wenger before Kroenke took over. You are right about us not spending overly much before Kroenke either, but we spent a lot more ambitiously than we have done under him, and we were promised more spending under Kroenke by David Dein, the only reason he sold the club was because he couldn’t afford to spend enough to keep us on top of the world. It isn’t a coincidence that we went from CL finalists the season before Kroenke to were we are now.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Cassano said:


> He scored at nearly the same rate + way better facilitator in a lower scoring era. It's a clear 1.
> 
> Cmon guys, I know Arsenal isn't thought of fondly on this board but cut the BS.
> 
> For me, Aguero isn't even the best foreign player to play for City. I'll take David Silva.
> 
> For peak, I will take Toure.




Cut the BS? I said Henry was at worst the 2nd best striker in the PL? He has 20 more assists  I mean they're both incredible well rounded strikers, Henry is the better playmaker while Aguero the slightly better poacher. I mean both guys are incredible, I just don't think that either guy is clearly better than the other.


----------



## Cassano

The Abusement Park said:


> Cut the BS? I said Henry was at worst the 2nd best striker in the PL? He has 20 more assists  I mean they're both incredible well rounded strikers, Henry is the better playmaker while Aguero the slightly better poacher. I mean both guys are incredible, I just don't think that either guy is clearly better than the other.



He is a way better playmaker and scored at practically the same rate in lower scoring era. I am confused at how that maybe makes him #2. I think it is inarguable. Agree to disagree I suppose.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Cassano said:


> He is a way better playmaker and scored at practically the same rate in lower scoring era. I am confused at how that maybe makes him #2. I think it is inarguable. Agree to disagree I suppose.




Aguero has been a equally as productive scorer in a much more competitive league then Henry. I really don’t think the difference between them is all that much big, even if Henry is better.


----------



## Cassano

The Abusement Park said:


> Aguero has been a equally as productive scorer in a much more competitive league then Henry. I really don’t think the difference between them is all that much big, even if Henry is better.



Goal scoring is one thing, but Henry was able to orchestrate, flicks, dribbles, etc. I think there is a clear gap. 

Kane is another guy who in 3-4 years will probably break both of their scoring records. Don't think that makes him better than either though.


----------



## hatterson

The Abusement Park said:


> Aguero has been a equally as productive scorer in a much more competitive league then Henry. I really don’t think the difference between them is all that much big, even if Henry is better.




Also FWIW, Aguero has a much higher goal scoring rate in continental play as well. Only 1 goal short of Henry in 22 fewer games over the length of their PL careers.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Cassano said:


> Goal scoring is one thing, but Henry was able to orchestrate, flicks, dribbles, etc. I think there is a clear gap.
> 
> Kane is another guy who in 3-4 years will probably break both of their scoring records. Don't think that makes him better than either though.




^^ hatterson also brings up a good point. Aguero’s continental play was much better. Both of them are very comparable in an all time list.


----------



## Havre

Difficult for a Spursfan to say, but no comparison between Henry and Aguero for me. Henry matches Aguero for goals and he was so much more. Henry could completely dominate a game Aguero never could. Doesn't make Aguero bad, but Henry was pretty special.

Spurs haven't really played Barcelona in important games (for Barcelona at least) so the comparison is a bit unfair, but I feared Henry more than I have feared Messi (obviously Messi is the better player still). Aguero has scored a lot against Spurs, but I never feared him the way I did with Henry.

In other news - good to see Spurs being the richest club in London. Something to cherish I guess during a crap season.


----------



## Venkman

Ecuador have hired Jordi Cruyff as technical director. He was linked with the same role at United. Although United hiring one just seems to be smoke and mirrors.


----------



## Chimaera

I mean, he really didn't have the pedigree (other than last name) to really come in and be a bang on success. 

Anything is better than Woodward (for the most part) but I don't think he has any aims of sharing power.


----------



## Venkman

Chimaera said:


> I mean, he really didn't have the pedigree (other than last name) to really come in and be a bang on success.
> 
> Anything is better than Woodward (for the most part) but I don't think he has any aims of sharing power.




True he doesn't but he still has more pedigree than the other ex players being linked. Can't see Woodward giving up power and hiring one either. An article in the M.E.N from the summer suggests the structure:


> Jim Lawlor and Mick Court were the scouts here under Ferguson and they are still delegated to identify targets," a United source told the MEN. "They will then hold discussions with Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and Mike Phelan. Matt Judge is the one doing deals and Ed signs them off, but he also signs off non-football aspects as well


----------



## Blender

Kovacic has been so much better than I was expecting this year, after not being very effective under Sarri.


----------



## Blender

Ndidi being out until February is a massive blow for Leicester. Unbelievable how much that guys does for them defensively, probably the 2nd best defensive midfielder in the league after Kante.


----------



## Aladyyn

Blender said:


> Ndidi being out until February is a massive blow for Leicester. Unbelievable how much that guys does for them defensively, probably the 2nd best defensive midfielder in the league after Kante.



You think he's better than Fabinho and Fernandinho? That's pretty bold imo


----------



## The Abusement Park

Aladyyn said:


> You think he's better than Fabinho and Fernandinho? That's pretty bold imo




I don’t think he’s quite as good of a distributor as Fernandinho or Fabinho, but he’s the best destroyer in the league bar Kante.


----------



## Blender

Aladyyn said:


> You think he's better than Fabinho and Fernandinho? That's pretty bold imo



Statistically he's the best this season and has only been getting better every year. So yes, I think that's a reasonable position even if it's debatable.

His game against Newcastle earlier this year was completely absurd, he destroyed them in their own half and barely let them cross the center line of the field. I posted his heat map after the game and it was crazy.


----------



## hatterson

IIRC he has the most tackles since he’s been in the league by a good margin.


----------



## Blender

hatterson said:


> IIRC he has the most tackles since he’s been in the league by a good margin.



Yea, last 3 seasons his tackle and interception stats combined are #1 or #2. Underappreciated because he plays for Leicester in the same way it took Kante moving to Chelsea to really get world wide recognition for how good he was.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Tottenham, a club perpetually in the shadow of it’s giant London neighbours, Arsenal and Chelsea, has in fact surpassed both of these two clubs in annual revenue

Deloitte Football Money League | Deloitte UK

Biggest club in London.

First London, then all of England. Then the world.

Or.....3rd or 4th in PL. Either one.


----------



## Havre

I would agree. Generally speaking I would take N'Didi over Fabinho and Fernandinho, but it would depend on team needs. Fabinho as an example fits very well at Liverpool because they already got quite a few high energy players in midfield. Fernandinho is amazing considering his age, but I don't think he is as good as N'Didi these days.


----------



## AB13

spintheblackcircle said:


> Tottenham, a club perpetually in the shadow of it’s giant London neighbours, Arsenal and Chelsea, has in fact surpassed both of these two clubs in annual revenue
> 
> Deloitte Football Money League | Deloitte UK
> 
> Biggest club in London.
> 
> First London, then all of England. Then the world.
> 
> Or.....3rd or 4th in PL. Either one.




Things that have happened since Spurs last won the league:

- The world population increasing by over 400%
- England winning the World Cup
- The Vietnam War
- First man on the Moon
- John F Kennedy was assassinated
- The invention of the internet
- The rise and fall of the Berlin wall
- The Beatles formed and split
- The entire Star Wars series
- The birth of Kurt Cobain
- Colour, HD and 3D television
- The Toronto Maple Leafs winning a Stanley Cup
- The Chicago Cubs winning the World Series
- 6 Arsenal league titles, including an invincible season and 2 titles clinched at White Hart Lane

To conclude, no, Tottenham aren’t the biggest club in London.


----------



## Havre

spintheblackcircle said:


> Tottenham, a club perpetually in the shadow of it’s giant London neighbours, Arsenal and Chelsea, has in fact surpassed both of these two clubs in annual revenue
> 
> Deloitte Football Money League | Deloitte UK
> 
> Biggest club in London.
> 
> First London, then all of England. Then the world.
> 
> Or.....3rd or 4th in PL. Either one.




Let's see if we can get into the EL first....

But no doubt that is impressive. Spurs was once about 1/3 of the top team in turn over when Deloitte started - now Spurs are close to 2/3. It will probably drop again next season without CL, but I am guessing Spurs are the biggest climbers when you take out the oil money.

And if you are top 10-15 and not Arsenal you will end up winning something at some point.


----------



## SSF

Chelsea are the biggest club in London, let's be honest


----------



## Havre

In an alternative universe where London only had Chelsea, West Ham, Fulham and Leyton Orient you might have a case.


----------



## Savant

SSF said:


> Chelsea are the biggest club in London, let's be honest



There is no biggest club in London. It changes every year


----------



## Havre

I never really understood what "biggest" really mean. History? Turn-over? Number of fans (obviously difficult to count)? Titles?

Probably some kind of combination?

Personally I would like to see how anyone can say it isn't Arsenal? Chelsea have obviously had more recent success, but that is like saying Red Bull Leipzig is bigger than Werder Bremen to me.


----------



## AB13

SSF said:


> Chelsea are the biggest club in London, let's be honest




What an absolute joke, Arsenal have 45 trophies to Chelseas 31 with tons more history and consistent sucess every decade since the 1930s, something that can’t be said for Chelski, who became relevant in 2003. Looking at history and fanbase, Chelsea are barely even bigger than Tottenham, who’s last league title is closer to the invention of the first successful gas turbine than it is the present day!


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

The amount of energy people put into being the "biggest club" is genuinely laughable.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> The amount of energy people put into being the "biggest club" is genuinely laughable.




It matters a lot when the team you support is a giant trash can. /s


----------



## Jack Straw

Liverpool and Nike close the deal on the clothes deal - The Boston Globe


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Havre said:


> In an alternative universe where London only had Chelsea, West Ham, Fulham and Leyton Orient you might have a case.



Tottenham is not a bigger club than Chelsea.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> The amount of energy people put into being the "biggest club" is genuinely laughable.




It was a slow news day.


----------



## Blender

"Rigid and repetitive" accurately sums up their game plan...


----------



## Cassano

Blender said:


> "Rigid and repetitive" accurately sums up their game plan...




That approach may have been best for Hazard, considering his struggles this year on the pitch and with match fitness.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Cassano said:


> That approach may have been best for Hazard, considering his struggles this year on the pitch and with match fitness.



Oof


----------



## The Abusement Park

Fun fact Martial/Rashford/Greenwood have more goals than Salah/Firmino/Mane this year. 39 to 38

obviously they aren’t a better front 3 or players individually but there does look to be something there for the future hopefully.


----------



## Jussi

Teemu Pukki Athlete Of The Year in Finland!


----------



## robertmac43

Jussi said:


> Teemu Pukki Athlete Of The Year in Finland!




Was it ever in doubt?


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Cool project and a nice initiative from Chelsea:


----------



## bleedblue1223

Hazard was never one that was going to put a ton of work in. He has a ton of talent, but he doesn't really have that drive and work ethic to consistently win and to want to be the best in the world.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

bleedblue1223 said:


> Hazard was never one that was going to put a ton of work in. He has a ton of talent, but he doesn't really have that drive and work ethic to consistently win and to want to be the best in the world.




I would put a major striker like Son over Hazard.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Vancouver Canucks said:


> I would put a major striker like Son over Hazard.



Hazard can still single-handedly carry an offense when he is properly pushed. If I'm building an ideal team, I probably wouldn't pick Hazard, but if I'm a team like Chelsea was during the Hazard era, where most of the teams lacked high quality attacking talent, then there aren't many others that I would want.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

bleedblue1223 said:


> Hazard can still single-handedly carry an offense when he is properly pushed. If I'm building an ideal team, I probably wouldn't pick Hazard, but if I'm a team like Chelsea was during the Hazard era, where most of the teams lacked high quality attacking talent, then there aren't many others that I would want.




I think he's more of a playmaker or a passer than a striker. His strikes had many goalkeepers make diving saves.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Vancouver Canucks said:


> I would put a major striker like Son over Hazard.




This is pretty brutal take IMO, and I really like Son


----------



## Savant

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> This is pretty brutal take IMO, and I really like Son



I mean, I’d rather, like, hang out with Son.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Savant said:


> I mean, I’d rather, like, hang out with Son.




Son seems like a really nice guy, but based on everything I know about Hazard off the pitch I think he'd actually be a blast to hang out with.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

In a wild turn of events, Harry Maguire is now the captain of Manchester United.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> In a wild turn of events, Harry Maguire is now the captain of Manchester United.




Way to show up to DDG I guess and even Pogba. Writing on the wall I guess.


----------



## Savant

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> In a wild turn of events, Harry Maguire is now the captain of Manchester United.



Gotta justify that transfer fee somehow


----------



## PeteWorrell

The good English lad will captain them to glory.


----------



## SJSharks72

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> In a wild turn of events, Harry Maguire is now the captain of Manchester United.



I mean it was obvious that was gonna happen. He’s been wearing the band when Young doesn’t play for a little while now. Only person I could see taking it would be DDG because Pogba hasn’t been on the field as much. Maguire has played in close to every game this season.


----------



## les Habs

Not sure what the fuss is. I don't know the players that well other than Pogba has had that responsibility with France if I'm not mistaken. However he seems to want out and it's not like De Gea didn't want out in the past. That said the ideal guy for captain doesn't always get it. Pique at Barça should at least be vice-captain.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> This is pretty brutal take IMO, and I really like Son




Nah.


----------



## Aladyyn

DDG wore the armband at times earlier this season and I'm pretty sure Ole didn't like some of the stuff he said to the press when he did so that's why it's Maguire. (also DDG's future is uncertain with the emergence of Henderson)

Pogba and his open flirting with Zidane of course disqualifies him lol


----------



## Cassano

Arteta has shored up the defense. 4th fewest goals conceded since his hiring. We can't score though. I don't know what can be done to fix that in the short term. I think we need to nuke the Aubameyang/Lacazette/Ozil core and start with something fresh.


----------



## Cucumber

Cassano said:


> Arteta has shored up the defense. 4th fewest goals conceded since his hiring. We can't score though. I don't know what can be done to fix that in the short term. I think we need to nuke the Aubameyang/Lacazette/Ozil core and start with something fresh.



Sell Ozil and Lacazette imo. Keep Auba he is elite.

I would go after Hazard from BVB, Mata could be a decent rotation player on the cheap to. Rigoni would be a good target to. Maybe even a loan deal for odeguard or another high level prospect.

It will be interesting to see who the euros promote to make epl teams overpay. Anyone remember sanchez from portugal? what happened to him he went from Pogba protential to being pretty quiet.


----------



## Cassano

Cucumber said:


> Sell Ozil and Lacazette imo. Keep Auba he is elite.
> 
> I would go after Hazard from BVB, Mata could be a decent rotation player on the cheap to. Rigoni would be a good target to. Maybe even a loan deal for odeguard or another high level prospect.
> 
> It will be interesting to see who the euros promote to make epl teams overpay. Anyone remember sanchez from portugal? what happened to him he went from Pogba protential to being pretty quiet.



Ideally Auba stays, but they'll need to sell to buy since they aren't getting CL money.

Odegaard would be perfect on a loan deal. Not sure the best mid in La Liga will be loaned out though Lol.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Odegaard is done with loaning. He will be either in Madrid or go to a team full time. He's arrived as a top player.


----------



## Cucumber

Cassano said:


> Ideally Auba stays, but they'll need to sell to buy since they aren't getting CL money.
> 
> Odegaard would be perfect on a loan deal. Not sure the best mid in La Liga will be loaned out though Lol.



who does DDG go to this year?

also what ever happened to Jack Butland?


----------



## Cassano

Cucumber said:


> who does DDG go to this year?
> 
> also what ever happened to Jack Butland?



Utd are married to DDG I think.

Butland has declined, but should get a transfer to a PL team I think from reputation.


----------



## Live in the Now

Butland is absolute shit lol.


----------



## hatterson

DDG might want out, but I’m not really sure who’ll pay for him.

Henderson has played great and I think United are looking at him as the long term starter, but they’re not going to give up de gea without a significant check.


----------



## Cucumber

hatterson said:


> DDG might want out, but I’m not really sure who’ll pay for him.
> 
> Henderson has played great and I think United are looking at him as the long term starter, but they’re not going to give up de gea without a significant check.



80m minimum. I would expect 100m tbh.

Crazy if the fax machine didn't break few years back how poor we would be. 

Psg only team I could see that might be interested. Maybe Barcelona but it's far from a need for them.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Cucumber said:


> 80m minimum. I would expect 100m tbh.
> 
> Crazy if the fax machine didn't break few years back how poor we would be.
> 
> Psg only team I could see that might be interested. Maybe Barcelona but it's far from a need for them.



Maybe Bacrelona for what exactly? They have the best keeper in the world.


----------



## Live in the Now

de Gea isn't going for more than 40 million or so. The ship sailed on him ever going for a mega fee after how many mistakes he's made.


----------



## Cassano

Live in the Now said:


> de Gea isn't going for more than 40 million or so. The ship sailed on him ever going for a mega fee after how many mistakes he's made.



All the clubs that could pay his wages are all set with keepers as well.


----------



## hatterson

Cucumber said:


> 80m minimum. I would expect 100m tbh.
> 
> Crazy if the fax machine didn't break few years back how poor we would be.
> 
> Psg only team I could see that might be interested. Maybe Barcelona but it's far from a need for them.




I meant significant check as in 65-70m, but like LTIN, I don’t think teams are gonna offer more than 40-45m.

He’s gonna be 30 a couple months into next season and is in the middle of his second season where he’s had significant mistakes in several games.

He’s had 11 clean sheets in the PL in his last 60 PL starts last year and this year. Obviously that’s not entirely on him, but it’s clear he’s not remotely close to the form he was of 2 years ago and prior and shot stopping isn’t usually a skill that improves in your 30s.


----------



## The Abusement Park

DDG always seemed like a keeper that would peak really high but decline pretty quickly and I've said that on here before. I'm hoping he isn't declining already, but with his skillset it's likely.


----------



## Savant

H


----------



## Savant




----------



## YEM

Cassano said:


> Arteta has shored up the defense. 4th fewest goals conceded since his hiring.



6 league games, 4 against teams that are in the bottom 7 of the league in goals scored per game


----------



## Cassano

mmvvpp said:


> 6 league games, 4 against teams that are in the bottom 7 of the league in goals scored per game



True, but their xGA are a lot better as well. It was horrendous during Emery's tenure. Also played the 4th and 5th highest scoring teams BTW.


----------



## Live in the Now

Cassano said:


> True, but their xGA are a lot better as well. It was horrendous during Emery's tenure. Also played the 4th and 5th highest scoring teams BTW.




I don't think there's anything we can really judge until they get rid of most of these players anyway. They need a heavy rebuild of the squad, and some of the ages of the players are going to force them to do that even if they didn't want to.


----------



## Blender

Kepa has been nowhere near good enough at actually stopping shots.


----------



## PanniniClaus

Blender said:


> Kepa has been nowhere near good enough at actually stopping shots.




Interesting.. I was hoping he would be an upgrade on Courtois....Thibaut always seemed to give up the most untimely of goals when you needed a big save... This from Kepa will not cut it...


----------



## AB13

Before last weekends games, ESPN ran a report on if every refereeing decision had been correct this season. To the surprise of no one, the report states Arsenal had lost 9 ( which is now 11) points due to poor referees this season, and would be fourth if every decision was correct. ESPN state Watfords goal when Cleverley enroached on a goal kick shouldn’t have counted, Aubameyang should have had a penalty at Sheffield when the game was 0-0, Sokratis goal should have stood against Palace at home and that Jorginho should have been sent off against Chelsea. That goes without mentioning the clear penalty Arsenal should have been awarded this weekend.

Feels like Arsenal have been systematically targeted by Premier League officials for years, which has been made even more extreme with VAR. Growing up my dad told me “ you either love Arsenal or you hate them, there is no in between”, which seems to be very applicable here.

The table with correct refereeing would read as follows

1. Liverpool - 62 points, -2 difference
2. Man City - points 46, -2 difference
3. Leicester - points 45, 0 difference
4. Arsenal - points 40, +11 difference
5. Chelsea - points 39, 0 difference
6. Man United - points 37, +3 difference
7. Wolves - points 37, +3 difference
8. Tottenham, points 30, -1 difference


----------



## Live in the Now

Would still have no losses which is one of the most insane things literally ever.


----------



## hatterson

AB13 said:


> Before last weekends games, ESPN ran a report on if every refereeing decision had been correct this season. To the surprise of no one, the report states Arsenal had lost 9 ( which is now 11) points due to poor referees this season, and would be fourth if every decision was correct. ESPN state Watfords goal when Cleverley enroached on a goal kick shouldn’t have counted, Aubameyang should have had a penalty at Sheffield when the game was 0-0, Sokratis goal should have stood against Palace at home and that Jorginho should have been sent off against Chelsea. That goes without mentioning the clear penalty Arsenal should have been awarded this weekend.
> 
> Feels like Arsenal have been systematically targeted by Premier League officials for years, which has been made even more extreme with VAR. Growing up my dad told me “ you either love Arsenal or you hate them, there is no in between”, which seems to be very applicable here.
> 
> The table with correct refereeing would read as follows
> 
> 1. Liverpool - 62 points, -2 difference
> 2. Man City - points 46, -2 difference
> 3. Leicester - points 45, 0 difference
> 4. Arsenal - points 40, +11 difference
> 5. Chelsea - points 39, 0 difference
> 6. Man United - points 37, +3 difference
> 7. Wolves - points 37, +3 difference
> 8. Tottenham, points 30, -1 difference




As was discussed when it came out, that "report" was hilariously flawed as it seemed to only focus on stuff fans complained about, and then made some really weird assumptions about the rest of the game based on that.

The one example you mention (Jorginho being sent off) ignores that Guendouzi should have been off in the first half if "every refereeing decision had been correct"

Also LOL at "clear penalty" 

For a supposed CM in Switzerland's fourth tier you seem to have very little knowledge of the actual game.


----------



## AB13

hatterson said:


> As was discussed when it came out, that "report" was hilariously flawed as it seemed to only focus on stuff fans complained about, and then made some really weird assumptions about the rest of the game based on that.
> 
> The one example you mention (Jorginho being sent off) ignores that Guendouzi should have been off in the first half if "every refereeing decision had been correct"
> 
> Also LOL at "clear penalty"
> 
> For a supposed CM in Switzerland's fourth tier you seem to have very little knowledge of the actual game.




Fans complained about them for a reason, I also missed mentioning calls that did not cost us, like Creswell not being sent off for a brutal tackle on Pepé or Pepe not getting a penalty against Bournemouth. The report also does not mention the Norwich game in which McClean tackled Guendouzi in a Very similar manner Aubameyang tackled Meyer, without getting sent off, and that Cook almost broke Pepes leg without being given a red. I think it is very hard for anyone to argue referees haven’t been hurting Arsenal massively this year.

Having an opinion on refereeing decisions does not say much at all about a persons knowledge of the game. What a ridiculous statement. Simply saying “ you know nothing about football” is pointless and doesn’t hold any weight as an argument so I can’t understand why you persist with that?


----------



## bleedblue1223

Blender said:


> Kepa has been nowhere near good enough at actually stopping shots.




The defense is to blame on a lot this year, defending set-pieces has been specifically horrid, but Kepa is just so unremarkable. Kepa was 9th last season in SV%. With a keeper like Kepa, a commanding CB is a must and that's something we just don't have. We just really struggle on aerial balls.

I really miss the times of Cech. Kepa should be decent enough in the short-term, but we need to scout and find a keeper of the future, like we did with Courtois.


----------



## Blender

bleedblue1223 said:


> The defense is to blame on a lot this year, defending set-pieces has been specifically horrid, but Kepa is just so unremarkable. Kepa was 9th last season in SV%. With a keeper like Kepa, a commanding CB is a must and that's something we just don't have. We just really struggle on aerial balls.
> 
> I really miss the times of Cech. Kepa should be decent enough in the short-term, but we need to scout and find a keeper of the future, like we did with Courtois.



Kepa is certainly not getting enough help from the defense, but he's also been really poor relative to the fee paid. He needs to pan out or that will turn out to be a pretty bad buy.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Blender said:


> Kepa is certainly not getting enough help from the defense, but he's also been really poor relative to the fee paid. He needs to pan out or that will turn out to be a pretty bad buy.



I've already accepted it as a bad buy if we always look at him based on his transfer fee. It was an extremely high fee because we had to pay the release clause and we either badly miscalculated the Courtois situation, misread Kepa's abilities, or miscalculated on the availability of another replacement.


----------



## Savant

So Liverpool’s magic number is 30 points. 



This table gives a good visualization of when LFC can clinch. It’s exciting stuff.


----------



## bleedblue1223

A 16 point lead with a game in hand, they pretty much have it locked up. What's the biggest point lead blown this late into the season?

Found this article, 5 times Premier League teams blew massive leads.

It would probably be the biggest collapse if Liverpool didn't win the title.


----------



## The Abusement Park

bleedblue1223 said:


> A 16 point lead with a game in hand, they pretty much have it locked up. What's the biggest point lead blown this late into the season?
> 
> Found this article, 5 times Premier League teams blew massive leads.
> 
> It would probably be the biggest collapse if Liverpool didn't win the title.




It would be one of the biggest collapses in sports history is liverpool blew this.


----------



## hatterson

I don't understand how there's as high as a 4% chance it goes into the last week.


----------



## bleedblue1223

hatterson said:


> I don't understand how there's as high as a 4% chance it goes into the last week.




The article says that they have a 98% chance of winning the title currently, but since they also beat United, they say the numbers are pretty close to 100% now. The figure given is just when it's mathematically guaranteed, instead of just projected that they are the champions, so that's why the numbers are lower for that late.


----------



## hatterson

bleedblue1223 said:


> The article says that they have a 98% chance of winning the title currently, but since they also beat United, they say the numbers are pretty close to 100% now. The figure given is just when it's mathematically guaranteed, instead of just projected that they are the champions, so that's why the numbers are lower for that late.




I get that, but I mean I don't understand how there's a 4% chance, even before the United game, that City make up 13 points in 15 games (with Liverpool having 17).

I'd guess the numbers closer to:
wk 38: 99.9%
wk 37: 99.5%
wk 36: 98%
wk 35: 95%
wk 34: 90%

It's the same how I don't see there being a 4% chance of it being clinched after week 30 as that would require City dropping something like 9 points over 7 games and I just don't see that as high as a 4% chance.


----------



## Mount Suribachi

Even Liverpool boss Klopp would be destined to fail at Man Utd

What could Klopp do to reverse Man Utd's "managed decline"? Not a lot probably.


----------



## Savant

hatterson said:


> I get that, but I mean I don't understand how there's a 4% chance, even before the United game, that City make up 13 points in 15 games (with Liverpool having 17).
> 
> I'd guess the numbers closer to:
> wk 38: 99.9%
> wk 37: 99.5%
> wk 36: 98%
> wk 35: 95%
> wk 34: 90%
> 
> It's the same how I don't see there being a 4% chance of it being clinched after week 30 as that would require City dropping something like 9 points over 7 games and I just don't see that as high as a 4% chance.



Hey I will be at Anfield for the 4% game so shhhhh


----------



## YNWA14

I feel for Stevie that he couldn’t be a part of this team and that it came so soon after his moving on (relative). I know he loves it but it’ll definitely sting as well.


----------



## Cassano

Business trip to London late February-early March and just got tickets to Hammers-Soton game. I wish I was able to experience it at Upton Park instead of the dead London stadium. 

Trying to get European tickets as well, but it's been a struggle without memberships so far.


----------



## Savant

Cassano said:


> Business trip to London late February-early March and just got tickets to Hammers-Soton game. I wish I was able to experience it at Upton Park instead of the dead London stadium.
> 
> Trying to get European tickets as well, but it's been a struggle without memberships so far.



You know, I can only speak for Liverpool groups, but it has become much harder to get tickets in general. You used be able to get an allocation from your supporters club relatively easily, but with all the new clubs/members/etc it has been really tough. I got very lucky


----------



## Live in the Now

Savant said:


> You know, I can only speak for Liverpool groups, but it has become much harder to get tickets in general. You used be able to get an allocation from your supporters club relatively easily, but with all the new clubs/members/etc it has been really tough. I got very lucky




The stadium isn't big enough and they need to expand it again. Not just for that reason of course. There are a lot of locals who can't get tickets and want to get in. It will only cost about what a good #9 would cost.


----------



## Cassano

Savant said:


> You know, I can only speak for Liverpool groups, but it has become much harder to get tickets in general. You used be able to get an allocation from your supporters club relatively easily, but with all the new clubs/members/etc it has been really tough. I got very lucky



I was able to contact Toronto Hammers FB page and they got me hooked up relatively quickly. Haven't received responses from other groups yet.


----------



## Savant

Live in the Now said:


> The stadium isn't big enough and they need to expand it again. Not just for that reason of course. There are a lot of locals who can't get tickets and want to get in. It will only cost about what a good #9 would cost.



For sure. I think that is on the horizon. Basic supply and demand happening here.


----------



## Cassano

@Machinehead


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

For Liverpool to lose the league now you’d probably need a Munich 58 type thing happen.


----------



## The Abusement Park

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> For Liverpool to lose the league now you’d probably need a Munich 58 type thing happen.




Jesus christ dude...


----------



## Juve




----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

He was crap and the end of last season showed that. Pretty obvious this was going to be the case this year


----------



## The Abusement Park

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> He was crap and the end of last season showed that. Pretty obvious this was going to be the case this year




yup. He got a post firing bump and then his abilities as a tactician were exposed but the club got sentimental and hired him too soon. Then you add in the fact that Woodward couldn’t me more of a football moron if he wanted to be and you have the implosion that has been this season. Just an embarrassment and really puts in to perspective how good Gill and Fergie were.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

This guy woodhouse or what ever is he the owner? The sporting director where did they get him from?


----------



## S E P H

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> This guy woodhouse or what ever is he the owner? The sporting director where did they get him from?



If I remember correctly they don't have a director of football, they pretty much have Woodward (who's a higher up executive) and then the manager lol. Nobody in between and I don't think Woodward has ever played top flight football in his life, so it's like they picked up a random CEO off the street and told him to build a football club. The worst aspect in all of this is that Woodward not only thinks he's doing a good job, but won't resign or give power to somebody else. They can fire a trillion managers and won't get anywhere until they fix their hierarchy of command. Glazers - the mobs who own Man United - won't fire him either, he's supposedly a friend of the family or some nonsense like that.


----------



## Live in the Now

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> This guy woodhouse or what ever is he the owner? The sporting director where did they get him from?




He moved over from JPMorgan and helped the Glazers buy the team. They will NEVER get rid of him.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> This guy woodhouse or what ever is he the owner? The sporting director where did they get him from?




He was brought over to help pay off the Glazers loan from buying the club. He then became the chief of commercial and media operations and killed it at that job and brought in tons of sponsorships and revenue. Due to his success in that role he got promoted to vice chairman and took over for gill when he retired.

He’s as good as it gets on the money aspect of football and I wouldn’t have an issue keeping him to keep bringing in money, but there’s no way his ego would let someone else come in and share his power unfortunately.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Thanks for the replies... long live nepotism i guess.


----------



## Chimaera

You don’t have to play top flight football to be a good director of football, scouting or recruitment. I think it helps in being a top class manager, but not completely mandatory. 

He also isn’t that great of a business man if we are honest. Sure he gets massive deals for United, but there’s a crap load of Wall Street guys who could do the same without any real effort. Selling the United brand isn’t hard. There’s always businesses looking to sign up. When he started the commercial side, they were just printing money, and he’s only used the past reach to leverage for more deals. It’s not complicated. United sells itself commercially. Even if they’re awful (and they’ve been poor for a while now compared to the expectation) there’s still a lineup of global brands who want to have their name on United stuff.


----------



## PeteWorrell

Woodward is exactly like Jerry Jones of the Dallas Cowboys in the NFL. Egomaniacs that are convinced that they can build a winning Football club despite years of failures.

Ole obviously got the job because the fans like him and also because he is a yes man that will not question management out of respect for the club. He will most likely get a longer leash than some of his predecessors as long as he does as he is told.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Chimaera said:


> You don’t have to play top flight football to be a good director of football, scouting or recruitment. I think it helps in being a top class manager, but not completely mandatory.
> 
> He also isn’t that great of a business man if we are honest. Sure he gets massive deals for United, but there’s a crap load of Wall Street guys who could do the same without any real effort. Selling the United brand isn’t hard. There’s always businesses looking to sign up. When he started the commercial side, they were just printing money, and he’s only used the past reach to leverage for more deals. It’s not complicated. United sells itself commercially. Even if they’re awful (and they’ve been poor for a while now compared to the expectation) there’s still a lineup of global brands who want to have their name on United stuff.




I mean I’m going to disagree. The guy is clearly good at making money. United has made stupid money the entire time he’s here regardless of the results he’s been in charge of. Now he is a bad negotiator and scout of talent and that’s where his incompetence really shines through.


----------



## Chimaera

He’s good at it, but it’s not like it’s a hard sell. There are others who could do much of the same


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Making a shit load of money these days with a world famous English football club isnt exactly a
major achievement given the extremely favorable business environment with skyrocketing overseas interest in the game and league.


----------



## Cassano

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Making a **** load of money these days with a world famous English football club isnt exactly a
> major achievement given the extremely favorable business environment with skyrocketing overseas interest in the game and league.



This. 

We saw this with Milan giving Gazidis the job and a certain Milan fan on this forum pointing evidence to the finances to suggest he'd be a good hiring.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

Manchester United just like Real Madrid are a pure corporation and driven by marketing and visibility not really a well oiled football club. (Not a diss just an observation)

They always go for the bigger well established names available : Di Maria, Ibrahimovic, Schweinsteiger, Mkhataryan, Lukaku, Pogba, Maguire (to a lesser extent). Now this summer they will probably be in on Sancho, Maddison,, Dembele, Koulibaly, maybe even Isco, James Rodriguez or Coutinho.

They cannot just buy a low key player like (example: Todd Cantwell, Deulefeu, Pavlidis) They need their player to be recognized. Real Madrid also are like that even after they won 3 times the CL with a quite similar team they (Perez) needed a new refresh product with famous names and excitment. 

To a certain level it works, I mean Manchester United with all their recent failures and wasted transfer money down the drain are still very relevant and are the richest team in the premier league. 

Will that change? I doubt it.


----------



## IceColdOx

PeteWorrell said:


> Woodward is exactly like Jerry Jones of the Dallas Cowboys in the NFL. Egomaniacs that are convinced that they can build a winning Football club despite years of failures.
> 
> Ole obviously got the job because the fans like him and also because he is a yes man that will not question management out of respect for the club. He will most likely get a longer leash than some of his predecessors as long as he does as he is told.




He reminds me more of Russ Brandon of the Buffalo Bill/Sabres. He was a bean counter that tried to play executive and failed. He was the common thread in the Bills failures before Brandon Beane/Sean McDermott showed up. The best thing Terry Pegula did was fire Brandon and let football people make decisions.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

JeffreyLFC said:


> Manchester United just like Real Madrid are a pure corporation and driven by marketing and visibility not really a well oiled football club. (Not a diss just an observation)
> 
> They always go for the bigger well established names available : Di Maria, Ibrahimovic, Schweinsteiger, Mkhataryan, Lukaku, Pogba, Maguire (to a lesser extent). Now this summer they will probably be in on Sancho, Maddison,, Dembele, Koulibaly, maybe even Isco, James Rodriguez or Coutinho.
> 
> They cannot just buy a low key player like (example: Todd Cantwell, Deulefeu, Pavlidis) They need their player to be recognized. Real Madrid also are like that even after they won 3 times the CL with a quite similar team they (Perez) needed a new refresh product with famous names and excitment.
> 
> To a certain level it works, I mean Manchester United with all their recent failures and wasted transfer money down the drain are still very relevant and are the richest team in the premier league.
> 
> Will that change? I doubt it.



Mkhataryan is actually an example of the exact opposite of your argument. I would necessarily disagree but buying guys like Rojo and Bailly arent exactly house hold names. Mind you it didnt work out with either player but the intention was clearly there.


----------



## Blender

Doesn't matter how much you dominate the ball when you bleed goals like this.


----------



## phisherman




----------



## robertmac43

Exclusive: Disgruntled Arsenal fans to launch breakaway...

Well if anyone wants to job off the Arsenal ban wagon there is a new club coming for you.


----------



## Chimaera

I mean, AFC Liverpool and FC United of Manchester still exist.


----------



## SJSharks72

JeffreyLFC said:


> Manchester United just like Real Madrid are a pure corporation and driven by marketing and visibility not really a well oiled football club. (Not a diss just an observation)
> 
> They always go for the bigger well established names available : Di Maria, Ibrahimovic, Schweinsteiger, Mkhataryan, Lukaku, Pogba, Maguire (to a lesser extent). Now this summer they will probably be in on Sancho, Maddison,, Dembele, Koulibaly, maybe even Isco, James Rodriguez or Coutinho.
> 
> They cannot just buy a low key player like (example: Todd Cantwell, Deulefeu, Pavlidis) They need their player to be recognized. Real Madrid also are like that even after they won 3 times the CL with a quite similar team they (Perez) needed a new refresh product with famous names and excitment.
> 
> To a certain level it works, I mean Manchester United with all their recent failures and wasted transfer money down the drain are still very relevant and are the richest team in the premier league.
> 
> Will that change? I doubt it.



Schweinsteiger is the only example of this. The rest helped (ADM was a case of a shit manager that didn’t know how to use him. There’s a reason he was excellent in his first few games). None of the players you listed upgrade this team. They go for these big name players because they are the best in the world which is what United aspire to be. All of the players you listed in the expensive part upgrade this team a lot. There’s lots of players that would be good rotational pieces already at the club. They need starters.


----------



## Blender

Great news for Chelsea, as getting RLC back should be a better add than probably any reasonable midfielder we can buy right now.


----------



## Cassano




----------



## Blender

Chelsea really need to be rotating the midfield a bit more for the rest of the season, and until RLC is back one of the ways they should be achieving that rotation is by playing Billy Gilmour more. He's been outstanding when they have played him in cup games. He's good enough to make appearances in the Premier League, and should be given more despite his age.


----------



## PansCyans

Andre Gomes is back training with the first team after that horrific ankle injury a few months back


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Eriksen to Inter Milan. The DESK line in Tottenham has been broken.


----------



## Jussi

Somewhat football related as in how on Earth are these two Manchester legends doing anything together:


----------



## Cassano

Pep Guardiola: I'll be judged a failure at Man City without Champions League win

Thoughts?


----------



## Blender

Cassano said:


> Pep Guardiola: I'll be judged a failure at Man City without Champions League win
> 
> Thoughts?



I agree, and deservedly so. He's certainly put together a couple of really impressive league seasons, but with the resources at his disposal and the unbelievable amount of investment the owners have made in the squad with him there, there is little excuse for not doing better in Europe.


----------



## Cassano

Blender said:


> I agree, and deservedly so. He's certainly put together a couple of really impressive league seasons, but with the resources at his disposal and the unbelievable amount of investment the owners have made in the squad with him there, there is little excuse for not doing better in Europe.



I think failure is a bit harsh. I think he's a bit of a fraud w/o Xavi/Iniesta/Messi, but failure to me implies a F grade. I think his overall tenure is more of a B-, but with Pep you would expect a lot better (in Europe).


----------



## Cassano

Future Barca manager with Xavi


----------



## Blender

Cassano said:


> I think failure is a bit harsh. I think he's a bit of a fraud w/o Xavi/Iniesta/Messi, but failure to me implies a F grade. I think his overall tenure is more of a B-, but with Pep you would expect a lot better (in Europe).



"Failure" might be harsh, but he certainly will have failed to meet expectations. He came to Man City with extremely high expectations and the club was committed to spending vast amounts to support that.



Cassano said:


> Future Barca manager with Xavi




Funny as Burnley seemed to be moving the ball around alright.


----------



## Juve

Cassano said:


> Pep Guardiola: I'll be judged a failure at Man City without Champions League win
> 
> Thoughts?





I agree, you need to win that trophy to justify all the spending. 

I really wonder if Pep could get fired at the end of the season.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Juve said:


> I agree, you need to win that trophy to justify all the spending.
> 
> I really wonder if Pep could get fired at the end of the season.




No way he's fired. They would be incredibly short sighted and dumb. But if that opens up a barca return Im all for it.


----------



## PeteWorrell

Guardiola dominated the Bundesliga with Bayern but he did not win the Champions League so the tenure is kind of seen as a failure because of that. The same will apply to his City tenure unless he wins it.


----------



## jimmysheva

Juventus' dominant Serie A title runs will not be remembered if they don't win the Champions League


----------



## Chimaera

Juve said:


> I agree, you need to win that trophy to justify all the spending.
> 
> I really wonder if Pep could get fired at the end of the season.




They won't fire him. But I think there's a universe where he decides to walk away and pursue other opportunities by mutual consent. Whether that scenario is brought on by the reality of his club needing a rebuild, or failing in the CL, or just seeing stacks of cash in Italy, I'm not sure, but it's out there.


----------



## bleedblue1223

jimmysheva said:


> Juventus' dominant Serie A title runs will not be remembered if they don't win the Champions League



The EPL is much harder to win than Serie A though, that's the difference.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Cassano said:


> Pep Guardiola: I'll be judged a failure at Man City without Champions League win
> 
> Thoughts?



Not a failure, but like at Bayern he wouldn’t have met expectations imo. Peps struggles in the CL is kind of becoming a black cloud over him.


----------



## Havre

There is always a bit of luck involved when it comes to the CL. For me Guardiola doesn't have to win that tournament to be a success at City, but considering the resources he has spent he would have to make City competitive against Liverpool again to be a proper success at City. If City just dwindle away into another Arsenal then I don't think his tenure at City can be described as more than good.

Not that I have written him off in terms of turning things around. But until he can actually do more than just winning the league with teams like Barcelona, BM and City I will never consider him as some sort of managerial miracle - as some seem to think he is.

And it is not because I don't like him as a person. He is one of very few managers that are actually interesting to listen to. Compare him to the boring stuff people like Rodgers, OGS etc go on and on about every single week and you can quickly assume Guardiola intellectually is on another level. That in itself doesn't automatically make him a much better manager though.


----------



## Burner Account

IMO Pep is an elite manager and City hired him to take them to the next level. Winning the PL is not the next level – they did that with lesser managers. Winning the CL is the next level. That's the whole point. If he doesn't take them to the next level, he doesn't fulfill his purpose at the club. Is that not failure?


----------



## Havre

That for me becomes more of a discussion of semantics. Can he only fail and succeed? If so it is probably a failure, but why would it be correct to evaluate him on such a strange digital scale?

To me there is quite a long continuum from failure to success.


----------



## Savant

Pep is not a failure, but if his next manager job is PSG/Juventus/etc, then he is certainly a coward


----------



## Chimaera

I don't think it makes him a coward. He's not built to rebuild and retool a roster that he has managed for a while. He's said multiple times that his message gets a bit stale after a while. Knowing your limitations is an important thing when you're elite at something. 

As for if it makes him a failure at City, well, maybe. But winning the CL is really hard to accomplish. Only one club can do so, and so often it can come down to an injury or a luck of the draw. The idea that Liverpool made it to two finals in a row, and then went on this tear just doesn't happen in the sport. 

I also think he takes a bit of time and settles before he hops into another situation.


----------



## Havre

He has never tried that though so how would he know? In many ways you could imagine his intensity would work even better with players not being superstars. Players willing to sacrifice themselves for the team. In many ways I see him to be similar to Pochettino in that sense.

I would love to see Guardiola at a team like Spurs or Napoli etc. A team you got to do like Klopp to win - get more out of less.


----------



## Savant

Chimaera said:


> I don't think it makes him a coward. He's not built to rebuild and retool a roster that he has managed for a while. He's said multiple times that his message gets a bit stale after a while. Knowing your limitations is an important thing when you're elite at something.
> 
> As for if it makes him a failure at City, well, maybe. But winning the CL is really hard to accomplish. Only one club can do so, and so often it can come down to an injury or a luck of the draw. The idea that Liverpool made it to two finals in a row, and then went on this tear just doesn't happen in the sport.
> 
> I also think he takes a bit of time and settles before he hops into another situation.



Coward is a harsh word, but it’s a blemish that he hasn’t had to build any team. He just goes to whoever has the most resources and the clearest path to the top. Look what Klopp has accomplished. Pep is the ideal corporate manager but I’d like to see what he could do with a lesser job; but he is too concerned with his legacy to do that. Even a guy like Ancelotti has diversified his managerial portfolio recently. Pep will only go somewhere that makes him look good. He is a front runner.


----------



## phisherman

Some of you guys play too much Football Manager. 

Pep EARNED his status of getting these top high paying jobs. He doesn't need to go manage Napoli, Spurs, etc. to prove himself. That's what has-beens like Mourinho and Ancelotti have to do.


----------



## Savant

phisherman said:


> Some of you guys play too much Football Manager.
> 
> Pep EARNED his status of getting these top high paying jobs. He doesn't need to go manage Napoli, Spurs, etc. to prove himself. That's what has-beens like Mourinho and Ancelotti have to do.



Not saying you are wrong, but to play devils advocate: 

He rode a Barcelona team that was already among the best of all time; Barca won before him, and Messi won without him too. 
That job took him to Bayern where he went into a an established dominant team. He was able to dominate from a resource standpoint and His his biggest competition was from a Klopp rebuilt Dortmund.
That job took him to Man City where he went into a an established dominant team. He was able to dominate from a resource standpoint and His his biggest competition was from a Klopp rebuilt Liverpool

Pep is a great manager and no one can take it away from him but in 2019, Klopp has surpassed him as the best. I would say Pep earned his reputation, but he one of the only top managers that didn’t have to prove himself at a lesser club. He doesn’t need to do that to validate himself, but that would be an interesting experiment for sure. I doubt he would do it. PSG and Juve are more of the same.


----------



## Havre

phisherman said:


> Some of you guys play too much Football Manager.
> 
> Pep EARNED his status of getting these top high paying jobs. He doesn't need to go manage Napoli, Spurs, etc. to prove himself. That's what has-beens like Mourinho and Ancelotti have to do.




You completely missed the point.

Obviously Guardiola shouldn't take a job to prove me or anyone else anything, but I still hope it happens one day. I am curious to see how he would handle that. If you are not that is fine.


----------



## Epictetus

We'd never criticize or count it against the legacy of top level players like Ronaldo, Hazard, and countless others for joining the very best teams rather than a top 4 side or middle table team, so I don't really see why football managers need to be distinguished on that basis.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

He rode a Barca team that was one of the best of all time? They were 4th in the league lol


----------



## Savant

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> He rode a Barca team that was one of the best of all time? They were 4th in the league lol



The season before he took over is when the transition from Ronaldinho to Messi began taking shape. They were older, like they are now but they still had a ton of talent. Rijkaard was a year moved from the champions league (I think, could be wrong) and Barca was still going deep into those competitions. Pep got rid of the aging players and gave the keys to the younger guys. Which was great, but again a lot of the players on that team were already established, and not many teams can match Barca for resources.


----------



## Cassano

phisherman said:


> Some of you guys play too much Football Manager.
> 
> Pep EARNED his status of getting these top high paying jobs. He doesn't need to go manage Napoli, Spurs, etc. to prove himself. That's what has-beens like Mourinho and Ancelotti have to do.



Ya, but guys like Mourinho and Ancelotti won CL with multiple teams. If Pep won a CL with Bayern or City, we wouldn't be having this conversation. 



Epictetus said:


> We'd never criticize or count it against the legacy of top level players like Ronaldo, Hazard, and countless others for joining the very best teams rather than a top 4 side or middle table team, so I don't really see why football managers need to be distinguished on that basis.



Very different aspect with players IMO.


----------



## YEM

phisherman said:


> Pep EARNED his status of getting these top high paying jobs. He doesn't need to go manage Napoli, Spurs, etc. to prove himself. That's what has-beens like Mourinho and Ancelotti have to do.



neither Mou nor Ancelotti had to take those jobs to "prove" themselves
they would both be considered among the top managers of their day if they never worked again in football


----------



## phisherman

mmvvpp said:


> neither Mou nor Ancelotti had to take those jobs to "prove" themselves
> they would both be considered among the top managers of their day if they never worked again in football




They're at the point of living off of their past glory. Which is why only teams like Everton and Spurs offered them a job. Pep isn't at that point. If he was ever available all the big clubs would try to grab him.


----------



## HoseEmDown

phisherman said:


> They're at the point of living off of their past glory. Which is why only teams like Everton and Spurs offered them a job. Pep isn't at that point. If he was ever available all the big clubs would try to grab him.




Mourinho won his last Champions league 10 seasons ago, Guardiola won his 9 seasons and Ancolotti 6. Not sure how Ancelotti and Mourinho are living off past success but Guardiola isn't? Man City went farther in the Champions league with Pelligrini as manager, Bayern won the champions league right before Pep took over and he never even got them back to a final. Both Ancelotti and Mourinho have just as much glory in the same time period as Guardiola but somehow they're living off their past while he isn't.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

HoseEmDown said:


> Mourinho won his last Champions league 10 seasons ago, Guardiola won his 9 seasons and Ancolotti 6. Not sure how Ancelotti and Mourinho are living off past success but Guardiola isn't? Man City went farther in the Champions league with Pelligrini as manager, Bayern won the champions league right before Pep took over and he never even got them back to a final. Both Ancelotti and Mourinho have just as much glory in the same time period as Guardiola but somehow they're living off their past while he isn't.




Ummm Ancelotti has been fired from 2 of his last 3 jobs. One of them being Napoli in his first year and now he's coaching an irrelevant Everton. Pretty clear cut. Mourinho fired 2 of his last 3 jobs embarrassing himself in the process and now coaching a second rate side. Both coaches have established themselves and been here long enough but right now they are on the wrong side of their careers. Their jobs at the moment is evidence of that.


----------



## les Habs

HoseEmDown said:


> Mourinho won his last Champions league 10 seasons ago, Guardiola won his 9 seasons and Ancolotti 6. Not sure how Ancelotti and Mourinho are living off past success but Guardiola isn't? Man City went farther in the Champions league with Pelligrini as manager, Bayern won the champions league right before Pep took over and he never even got them back to a final. Both Ancelotti and Mourinho have just as much glory in the same time period as Guardiola but somehow they're living off their past while he isn't.




You definitely aren't sure. The reason why is because Guardiola keeps winning domestically everywhere he goes. Since he left Barça he's won 5 of 7 league titles (including this season which he won't win) and 3 of 6 cups. Compare that to Mourinho who will have won 2 of 7 league titles, and 1 of 6 cups.


----------



## HoseEmDown

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Ummm Ancelotti has been fired from 2 of his last 3 jobs. One of them being Napoli in his first year and now he's coaching an irrelevant Everton. Pretty clear cut. Mourinho fired 2 of his last 3 jobs embarrassing himself in the process and now coaching a second rate side. Both coaches have established themselves and been here long enough but right now they are on the wrong side of their careers. Their jobs at the moment is evidence of that.




How Guardiola hasn't been fired yet is a miracle. Hasn't won the Champions league his last two stops. Never made a final with Bayern or even a Semi final with Man City are both fireable offenses. Being 20+ points outside of 1st in year 4 would get most coaches fired. Then when you consider the money he's spent on players and still can't win it's surprising. Another reason he hasn't been fired by City is because they aren't a big club. If he was at United or Madrid he would've been fired already.


----------



## Live in the Now

You already topped your scorching hot FA Cup/Klopp take. I am super impressed, we have a proper Einstein over here.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

HoseEmDown said:


> How Guardiola hasn't been fired yet is a miracle. Hasn't won the Champions league his last two stops. Never made a final with Bayern or even a Semi final with Man City are both fireable offenses. Being 20+ points outside of 1st in year 4 would get most coaches fired. Then when you consider the money he's spent on players and still can't win it's surprising. Another reason he hasn't been fired by City is because they aren't a big club. If he was at United or Madrid he would've been fired already.



Oh boy... this is one of the posts that make me feel the argument isn't worth having. Cheers.


----------



## HoseEmDown

les Habs said:


> You definitely aren't sure. The reason why is because Guardiola keeps winning domestically everywhere he goes. Since he left Barça he's won 5 of 7 league titles (including this season which he won't win) and 3 of 6 cups. Compare that to Mourinho who will have won 2 of 7 league titles, and 1 of 6 cups.




Bayern won domestically before and haven't lost the league after he left. They won the champions league the season before he got there and had been to back to back finals, he couldn't even get them to a final. Man City won 2 league titles in the 5 years prior to Pep and he's won 2 in 4 so unless he wins next year there's no improvement. He's won 2 league cups in 3 years, City won 2 of the last 3 league cups before he got there. So if he wins this year he can hang his hat on his league cup winning abilities. In the Champions league City went to the Semifinals twice in a 4 year window while he's yet to get them that far, so that has been a step back for the club. Again he hasn't done nothing that hasn't already been done by those clubs, he's actually done worse than those before him.


----------



## les Habs

HoseEmDown said:


> Bayern won domestically before and haven't lost the league after he left. They won the champions league the season before he got there and had been to back to back finals, he couldn't even get them to a final. Man City won 2 league titles in the 5 years prior to Pep and he's won 2 in 4 so unless he wins next year there's no improvement. He's won 2 league cups in 3 years, City won 2 of the last 3 league cups before he got there. So if he wins this year he can hang his hat on his league cup winning abilities. In the Champions league City went to the Semifinals twice in a 4 year window while he's yet to get them that far, so that has been a step back for the club. Again he hasn't done nothing that hasn't already been done by those clubs, he's actually done worse than those before him.




For starters, this was a comparison of managers. However I'll go down this road.

In the three seasons before Guardiola came to Bayern they only won the league once, he won it every year in his three years at the helm. 
Guardiola's league wins at Bayern were generally more impressive than those since and he faced tougher competition for part of the time he was there. This season Bayern are facing their toughest opposition domestically since he was there and Bayern winning the league isn't yet taken for granted.
So you say he hasn't taken City to the CL Semis, yet ignore the fact that he took Bayern to the CL Semis every year he was at the club. On top of that they lost to the winner 2 of those 3 years and the other year to a finalist who only lost in the final on penalties.
Yeah, City won 2 titles in the 5 years before Guardiola took over, but neither of those wins were as impressive as Guardiola's league wins, neither of them were record-setting like one of Guardiola's, neither of them were against an opponent like last year's Liverpool and neither of them were part of a domestic treble.
The domestic treble and record-setting league win were things City hadn't done before, so no, he hasn't actually done worse. And it's rather dim to make such a statement about a manager managing a big club. You might as well post that Liverpool's season this term isn't at all impressive since they've already won the league before.


----------



## HoseEmDown

les Habs said:


> For starters, this was a comparison of managers. However I'll go down this road.
> 
> In the three seasons before Guardiola came to Bayern they only won the league once, he won it every year in his three years at the helm.
> Guardiola's league wins at Bayern were generally more impressive than those since and he faced tougher competition for part of the time he was there. This season Bayern are facing their toughest opposition domestically since he was there and Bayern winning the league isn't yet taken for granted.
> So you say he hasn't taken City to the CL Semis, yet ignore the fact that he took Bayern to the CL Semis every year he was at the club. On top of that they lost to the winner 2 of those 3 years and the other year to a finalist who only lost in the final on penalties.
> Yeah, City won 2 titles in the 5 years before Guardiola took over, but neither of those wins were as impressive as Guardiola's league wins, neither of them were record-setting like one of Guardiola's, neither of them were against an opponent like last year's Liverpool and neither of them were part of a domestic treble.
> The domestic treble and record-setting league win were things City hadn't done before, so no, he hasn't actually done worse. And it's rather dim to make such a statement about a manager managing a big club. You might as well post that Liverpool's season this term isn't at all impressive since they've already won the league before.




So what did Bayern do since they weren't winning the league every year, they bought the best players from the team that was winning the league. They took Gotze the first year, Lewandowski the next and Hummels a few years later. I wouldn't say his wins are more impressive since Bayern won the league by 25 points the year before he took over which is better than any of his years and Bayern won the league by 21 two years after he left which was better than any of his years. I don't think the competition was tougher either since he took the two best attacking players from their direct rival. 

What does taking Bayern to the Semi's have to do with not getting City there? And taking Bayern to the Semi's isn't that great considering that they went to the finals two straight years before he got there. City went further in that competition without Guardiola then they have with him. Sure City set a points record when he won the league but again he's failed at the most important competition City is in every year. 

He's a good coach who'll win you the league or a domestic cup but won't win you the Champions league. If he was at Madrid he would be sacked if he failed 3 straight years especially after all the money they spent. City are a big club in spending only if they were a true big club they would sack him once he gets dumped out of the champions league this year.


----------



## Havre

Getting a bit weak if Guardiola is good just because he is better than the likes of Kovac.

To me Guardiola is in the top tier of managers, but I don't think he has proven that he is any better than the likes of Klopp (I guess few think that now anyway), Conte, Mourinho, Nagelsmann etc.


----------



## Chimaera

As impressive as Nagelsmann is, what has he actually won? There's a different quality and expectation for sure, but I don't think he has yet shown he can get across the line until he does. 

I realize it might be a matter of time before he takes a bigger job where he can win some hardware, but until that point, I don't think he's completely in the same discussion. Note, as cocky as he is, I think he's a fantastic manager. But he still hasn't done what some of those other names have done. 

There are plenty of hotshot managers who have done a lot, but no one is touting Villas Boas anymore, though at least he had a Europa league to his belt prior to making the move to a bigger club.


----------



## Havre

I think this obsession with "winning" is just a way to get away from actually evaluating the quality of work done. If someone can look up a wikipedia page and see titles they are safe saying he/she is good. Take Lagerback. I guess most people here do not know who he is. He hasn't won anything with Iceland and Norway, but how he improved both those teams is just extraordinary. Not suggesting Lagerback is anything close to Guardiola etc., but I am absolutely certain you cannot just evaluate a manager based on titles. Pochettino is loved by many on here. No titles.

Given the same resources I would not be convinced Guardiola doing a better job than Nagelsmann - and vice versa.


----------



## Chimaera

Sure, improving sides and taking them up the table is a quality. But that said, there's something to say about no pressure with some of those jobs as well. If Nagelsmann wins nothing this year, he can still hang his hat on having a season where he out performed expectations, gave Bayern or Dortmund a run, and looks like he got the most out of players. We don't know if he can coax more out of a bunch of guys with higher salaries, higher expectations and get them across the line. Not everyone is cut out to manage a PSG. Not everyone can overachieve with less. Not everyone can do both. 

When Eddie Howe was the hot new thing in managing in the EPL, it was because he was squeezing the most out of Bournemouth, and playing a decent way. The verdict has turned a bit on that, and the same views are not held on his abilities. Did he all of a sudden become a bad manager? No, I don't think so, but maybe he should have taken a move when it was potentially available. I think we saw the result in some ways with the David Moyes to United. Sure, the squad was aging a bit, and the backroom staff he brought was doing him no favors, but he didn't all of a sudden forget how to manage. For Everton, he had over performed the mean expectation for a while, but the weight of expectations and the step up was way too massive of a gulf. 

To be fair, there's no clear metric that can evaluate what contribution some managers bring. Analytics don't have a formula in just how many points a manager adds or subtracts. So it's really hard to objectively say, well, "Nuno is better than OGS because X". Tactically, you can tell who is astute. Or developmentally, you can see some of the strengths. But some of that can be related to what players they have or finances, or sheer chance. 

On that note, it's easy to say that well, Pep has the best players. When Jose won, he had some of the best players. But at some point even having the best players, you have to find some way to put them together and function as a unit that can get the most out of them. Sure, Klopp is getting more out of his players, and he should rightly get credit, however, he's presently playing with the best central defender, the best goalkeeper, the best right back, arguably the best left back, and three forwards who are in the discussion for the best in the game, along with severely underrated midfielders. Sure, he helped build it. But it's not like he's running around with Championship level players running away with the league. Most times out, he has the best roster on the pitch, even if he's putting substitutes out there. The same can be said of his runs in Dortmund. The wheels came off when some of those talents eventually left, got injured or what have you, but it wasn't like he was playing without players.


----------



## YNWA14

I think it's important to note that any manager that wins any top flight trophy typically has some of the best players in the world. There are exceptions, but even Leicester had Mahrez, Kante, and to a lesser extent, Vardy. Two of those guys could play on any team in the world and the third is very underrated as a striker and worker. Not every team has an endless stream of money to fill gaps and replace players if they're not performing but I don't think you can hold having the best players against any manager really, they all need them. Though I know there is a narrative that Liverpool (at least up until this season) had a lot of very average players, I assure you that isn't the case.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Klopp got the Dortmund job because he did really well at Mainz but to be honest its not like they won the league or always had good seasons. If Klopp hadnt been a massive success as TV pundit during WC2006, which elevated his profile immensely, Id be almost certain he wouldn’t have gotten that Dortmund job.

Point being that theres no manager with a perfect track record and nothing that cant be interpreted as a red flag post facto.


----------



## Havre

Almost boring how reasonable this thread has become.

I guess I again have to stress that I think Guardiola is very good - if not there are the usual suspects on here that will misunderstand on purpose. His Barcelona is probably the best team I have ever seen, but it is not like they were poor under Rijkaard either. And it helps having Messi ++. Similar to ZZ doing exceptionally well with RM without many suggesting he is some sort of managerial magician. If anything though I think ZZ is almost as underrated as Guardiola is overrated. As for BM I personally preferred the Heynckes team. That is obviously influenced by the style of football I like - so not stating it as an objective fact of which was better.

Always interesting this - did Klopp develop all these players or have Klopp been extremely lucky having them? Probably a bit of both. The same can be said for Guardiola at Barcelona. Not suggesting anyone could have made that Barcelona team that good (even if Allardyce would argue he could have made them even better).


----------



## S E P H

Cassano said:


> Future Barca manager with Xavi




It's a lousy excuse, but Arteta doing his best to not blame any players since they've carried pretty much all the blame the entire season. I don't blame him for going this route so he can keep the players to trust him, but eventually 3/4 of the team will need to be replaced with youth and other buys.


----------



## les Habs

HoseEmDown said:


> So what did Bayern do since they weren't winning the league every year, they bought the best players from the team that was winning the league. They took Gotze the first year, Lewandowski the next and Hummels a few years later. I wouldn't say his wins are more impressive since Bayern won the league by 25 points the year before he took over which is better than any of his years and Bayern won the league by 21 two years after he left which was better than any of his years. I don't think the competition was tougher either since he took the two best attacking players from their direct rival.
> 
> What does taking Bayern to the Semi's have to do with not getting City there? And taking Bayern to the Semi's isn't that great considering that they went to the finals two straight years before he got there. City went further in that competition without Guardiola then they have with him. Sure City set a points record when he won the league but again he's failed at the most important competition City is in every year.
> 
> He's a good coach who'll win you the league or a domestic cup but won't win you the Champions league. If he was at Madrid he would be sacked if he failed 3 straight years especially after all the money they spent. City are a big club in spending only if they were a true big club they would sack him once he gets dumped out of the champions league this year.




 FFS. Is this serious? For starters, Bayern won the league the year before they signed Goetze. That's not to mention it was also the year Guardiola started as you already pointed out so not sure where you get "since they weren't winning the league" since mention in the same paragraph. On top of that, Goetze only had one season of note under Guardiola and started only a combined 20 league matches in Guardiola's last two seasons at Bayern. Moving on to Hummels, he was signed AFTER Guardiola had already left Bayern. He's completely irrelevant to the discussion.

As for the season before he came, again it's not relevant to what I posted. I very clearly said his wins "were generally more impressive_ than those since_." That was in response to something you said about Bayern post Guardiola and thus the season before Guardiola's season is irrelevant. 

For starters, they didn't take the two best attacking players from BVB. Reus was and is better than Goetze. Lewandowski was the best, clearly, but they had both Aubameyang and Mhkitaryan in the team after he left. That's not to mention they had Klopp at the helm for two of the three seasons Guardiola was at Bayern. 

It has everything to do with it when you're slating him for not getting a team to that level of the same competition. Simple as that. As for City getting further without him, did they win? No, so by your measure that too is a failure. 

 He's a GREAT manager who has won the Champions League twice. As for him getting sacked, City would be foolish to do so because they won't find a better replacement. 



Havre said:


> Getting a bit weak if Guardiola is good just because he is better than the likes of Kovac.
> 
> To me Guardiola is in the top tier of managers, but *I don't think he has proven that he is any better than the likes of* Klopp (I guess few think that now anyway),* Conte, Mourinho, Nagelsmann etc*.




Try reading the posts and staying along. I was clearly responding to his saying Bayern haven't lost the league since Guardiola left, and as I noted Guardiola's league wins were more impressive and against better competition.



Havre said:


> Almost boring how reasonable this thread has become.
> 
> I guess I again have to stress that I think Guardiola is very good - if not there are the usual suspects on here that will misunderstand on purpose. His Barcelona is probably the best team I have ever seen, but it is not like they were poor under Rijkaard either. And it helps having Messi ++. Similar to ZZ doing exceptionally well with RM without many suggesting he is some sort of managerial magician. If anything though I think ZZ is almost as underrated as Guardiola is overrated. As for BM I personally preferred the Heynckes team. That is obviously influenced by the style of football I like - so not stating it as an objective fact of which was better.
> 
> Always interesting this - did Klopp develop all these players or have Klopp been extremely lucky having them? Probably a bit of both. The same can be said for Guardiola at Barcelona. Not suggesting anyone could have made that Barcelona team that good (even if Allardyce would argue he could have made them even better).




Not sure who the "usual suspects" are, but based on the bolded there is nothing to misunderstand. And for the record, the team was "broken" when Guardiola took over from Rijkaard. Rijkaard did well for a while, but he lost control of the team.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Havre said:


> Almost boring how reasonable this thread has become.
> 
> I guess I again have to stress that I think Guardiola is very good - if not there are the usual suspects on here that will misunderstand on purpose. His Barcelona is probably the best team I have ever seen, but it is not like they were poor under Rijkaard either. And it helps having Messi ++. Similar to ZZ doing exceptionally well with RM without many suggesting he is some sort of managerial magician. If anything though I think ZZ is almost as underrated as Guardiola is overrated. As for BM I personally preferred the Heynckes team. That is obviously influenced by the style of football I like - so not stating it as an objective fact of which was better.
> 
> Always interesting this - did Klopp develop all these players or have Klopp been extremely lucky having them? Probably a bit of both. The same can be said for Guardiola at Barcelona. Not suggesting anyone could have made that Barcelona team that good (even if Allardyce would argue he could have made them even better).




Barcelona's in Premier League; I see.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Loftus-Cheek played his first match since May for the development squad last night. Hopefully back to the first team soon!


----------



## Jussi




----------



## Blender

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Loftus-Cheek played his first match since May for the development squad last night. Hopefully back to the first team soon!



Hopefully he's up to speed and fully healthy in the next month or so. Underrated player that should be a big addition for us.

I also want Lampard to start rotating in Billy Gilmour a bit more. Doesn't need to start or play full games or anything like that, but he's another guy that brings some great energy and can quickly cover a lot of ground.


----------



## Machinehead

I just wanna win our next 4 games. That'll be 20 in a row and 37-1-0 over 38 games. That's a season.

After that we can focus on other competitions as need dictates.

I don't need the satisfaction of an unbeaten official season if we've done it for 38 games. We've beaten every opponent. We have nothing to prove by doing it a whole season. 37-1-0. It'll never be done again. More trophies is more important at that point.


----------



## Cassano

Chelsea fans caught making Nazi salutes, singing about 'Yids' and imitating a gas chamber | Daily Mail Online

England need to clean up their own mess before acting all high and mighty on other Euro countries.


----------



## Cassano

Another bald fraud added to the collection.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Rumor that Liverpool is interested in Son, and they are willingly welcoming him to the club. The talks are preliminary, but we'll see how things go.


----------



## Live in the Now

Extremely doubtful


----------



## Havre

Haha. What is this? Keep it to the rumours thread at least.

Unless Salah wants to move to London that is not happening.

Hopefully Spurs' luck didn't go with his hair.


----------



## Savant

I’m sure that Liverpool like Sonny but would be really unlikely for a lot of reasons.


----------



## robertmac43

Cassano said:


> Chelsea fans caught making Nazi salutes, singing about 'Yids' and imitating a gas chamber | Daily Mail Online
> 
> England need to clean up their own mess before acting all high and mighty on other Euro countries.




England is still terrible for racism. Unfortunate really, especially since they hold themselves to a standard 'higher' than some of the other leagues around Europe.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

robertmac43 said:


> England is still terrible for racism. Unfortunate really, especially since they hold themselves to a standard 'higher' than some of the other leagues around Europe.



The hypocrisy is hilarious to be fair.


----------



## robertmac43

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> The hypocrisy is hilarious to be fair.




Hilarious and ridiculous.


----------



## Cassano

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> The hypocrisy is hilarious to be fair.



They way the media and FA were patting themselves on the back after the Bulgaria game.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Cassano said:


> They way the media and FA were patting themselves on the back after the Bulgaria game.



Almost Murcia like no?


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Live in the Now said:


> Extremely doubtful




The possibility is low, which is why I said it's a rumor.


----------



## robertmac43

A solid read on the financial reliance Watford has on the Premier League. 

Watford working on plan to cope with relegation as accounts...


----------



## hatterson

robertmac43 said:


> A solid read on the financial reliance Watford has on the Premier League.
> 
> Watford working on plan to cope with relegation as accounts...




This is one of the downsides of the league being so financially powerful and sharing resources the way they do.

Clubs like Watford shouldn’t have to have wages that are more than three times their non-tv turnover just to remain viable to avoid relegation, but they’re basically forced to.

Even a club like Everton pays double their non-broadcasting revenue in wages.

If you replaced the English TV contract with the la Liga one, you’d see most of the bottom half forced to sell players and heavily cut wages to avoid bankruptcy.


----------



## hatterson

Article on City’s scheduling issues:

Man City has big reschedule headache after West Ham postponement

TL;DR: without conflicting with CL weeks (which UEFA hates) and if they stay alive in the FA there’s only two free midweeks left in the season and City now has two games to reschedule and moving on in the FA cup will mean a third to reschedule.


----------



## YEM

I'm not sure why that game wasn't moved to tomorrow or wednesday [winter break rules?]
neither team is slated to play again until 2/22 at the earliest...


----------



## bleedblue1223

hatterson said:


> This is one of the downsides of the league being so financially powerful and sharing resources the way they do.
> 
> Clubs like Watford shouldn’t have to have wages that are more than three times their non-tv turnover just to remain viable to avoid relegation, but they’re basically forced to.
> 
> Even a club like Everton pays double their non-broadcasting revenue in wages.
> 
> If you replaced the English TV contract with the la Liga one, you’d see most of the bottom half forced to sell players and heavily cut wages to avoid bankruptcy.




Yeah, this is the argument against a promotion/relegation system. For clubs to be financially stable, only a handful should be spending a ton of money, but for clubs to stay at the top tier, they need to spend above their own means and if they are relegated, then they have a mass liquidation of players to come back down to their own financial means. Revenue sharing is ultimately a good thing to allow for these clubs to build competitive rosters, but the downside is if they do end up being relegated, their revenue tanks.


----------



## bleedblue1223

For people that go to Euro football games, why is the racism and antisemitism so blatant? That's something I've never fully understood. I go to a ton of sporting events in the States from pros to minors to college, across multiple sports, and while I've seen my fair share of drunken a-holes, I rarely see blatant racism or antisemitism, but I have seen it from time to time.

Not making this a States vs Europe argument, I just genuinely want to understand the difference in the culture that makes it like this. If it purely came down to rowdy people and alcohol, I would've expected to witness it over here at a similar frequency.


----------



## hatterson

bleedblue1223 said:


> Yeah, this is the argument against a promotion/relegation system. For clubs to be financially stable, only a handful should be spending a ton of money, but for clubs to stay at the top tier, they need to spend above their own means and if they are relegated, then they have a mass liquidation of players to come back down to their own financial means. Revenue sharing is ultimately a good thing to allow for these clubs to build competitive rosters, but the downside is if they do end up being relegated, their revenue tanks.




I don't think it's an argument against promotion/relegation per se, but rather an argument against promotion/relegation when the difference between being 17th in the premiership (and thus staying up) and being 18th (and thus going down) is tens of millions of pounds.

If the TV deal was structured differently (say similar to the La Liga one) where you have it based much more significantly on TV drawing power as opposed to purely based on league finish, you wouldn't see a team at the bottom being forced to spend as much because their competition also wouldn't be spending as much.

Obviously the tradeoff there is in parity. The PL has chosen to have a much more level playing field between the top and the bottom, La Liga has chosen to give Barca and Real almost 1/4 of their TV deal (based on drawing power).

The La Liga model makes it very hard for newly promoted teams to do much beyond fight to stay up, but the advantage is they're not debt spending to do it.

The PL model makes it much easier for a team like Leicester, Wolves, Sheffield, etc. to make big runs very shortly after coming up, but the disadvantage is that if a club is relegated, they either need to earn promotion back within a year or two, or they're likely going to have a firesale and have to overhaul the entire team.


----------



## robertmac43

bleedblue1223 said:


> For people that go to Euro football games, why is the racism and antisemitism so blatant? That's something I've never fully understood. I go to a ton of sporting events in the States from pros to minors to college, across multiple sports, and while I've seen my fair share of drunken a-holes, I rarely see blatant racism or antisemitism, but I have seen it from time to time.
> 
> Not making this a States vs Europe argument, I just genuinely want to understand the difference in the culture that makes it like this. If it purely came down to rowdy people and alcohol, I would've expected to witness it over here at a similar frequency.




I put a lot of stock into the deep routed political and racist issues that are more prevalent in Europe. There is just more history in that part of the world and there has been more political strive and built up tension. Europe also has more areas where tensions persists, N/A has pockets where racism is an issue but the people are for the most part more spread out.

Europe has just had the issues for far longer and therefor they have been more deep routed.


----------



## Havre

The La Liga structure is a good way to avoid the league being competitive. Giving less money to teams so that they lose less when getting relegated is a very odd way of looking at things. It is perfectly possible to be among the teams that are typically moving between the PL and the Championship without always running the risk of doing a Leeds.

As for racism. It is bad, but where is it not? I don't mean that as an excuse, but having lived in several countries and traveled quite a lot all over the world I am yet to find a place where you can't notice racism. Northern Europe is probably the place alongside NA where it seems to he the least problem. And having lived in Southern Europe and as an example China I would say racism is a far bigger deal in China than Southern Europe.

It is all a bit surreal to me.


----------



## bleedblue1223

hatterson said:


> I don't think it's an argument against promotion/relegation per se, but rather an argument against promotion/relegation when the difference between being 17th in the premiership (and thus staying up) and being 18th (and thus going down) is tens of millions of pounds.
> 
> If the TV deal was structured differently (say similar to the La Liga one) where you have it based much more significantly on TV drawing power as opposed to purely based on league finish, you wouldn't see a team at the bottom being forced to spend as much because their competition also wouldn't be spending as much.
> 
> Obviously the tradeoff there is in parity. The PL has chosen to have a much more level playing field between the top and the bottom, La Liga has chosen to give Barca and Real almost 1/4 of their TV deal (based on drawing power).
> 
> The La Liga model makes it very hard for newly promoted teams to do much beyond fight to stay up, but the advantage is they're not debt spending to do it.
> 
> The PL model makes it much easier for a team like Leicester, Wolves, Sheffield, etc. to make big runs very shortly after coming up, but the disadvantage is that if a club is relegated, they either need to earn promotion back within a year or two, or they're likely going to have a firesale and have to overhaul the entire team.



I know it's not really an argument against pro/rel. In reality it just means the club will just be selling a bunch of players in the summer if they are relegated, and once they are able to get promoted again, they'll then be able to spend money again on new players. It's not like a club is bloated with debt where they won't be able to financially deal with it. 

I much prefer the balanced share approach that promotes parity. I don't want the elite big clubs to just always dominate because they just collect all the top players.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Havre said:


> The La Liga structure is a good way to avoid the league being competitive. Giving less money to teams so that they lose less when getting relegated is a very odd way of looking at things. It is perfectly possible to be among the teams that are typically moving between the PL and the Championship without always running the risk of doing a Leeds.
> 
> As for racism. It is bad, but where is it not? I don't mean that as an excuse, but having lived in several countries and traveled quite a lot all over the world I am yet to find a place where you can't notice racism. Northern Europe is probably the place alongside NA where it seems to he the least problem. And having lived in Southern Europe and as an example China I would say racism is a far bigger deal in China than Southern Europe.
> 
> It is all a bit surreal to me.



Yeah, I agree, I don't like the La Liga structure.

Yes, racism exists everyone, it's still crazy to me to see it so blatant in public like that with this level of frequency. I know it happens in NA sports too, so not dismissing that or saying it doesn't happen. And, yeah, racism isn't isolated to one group of people or area of the world. 

I also don't know what clubs are expected to do when some of these incidents occur outside of the stadium. You can't really control that behavior, you can't enforce the racism out of someone.


----------



## Chimaera

I mean, the racism in some ways is deep rooted in some of the club supporter groups. They've been radicalized and how they are has existed for a long while now. But some of it has changed recently, and the differences are two fold. one, there's more media exposure to draw attention to people behaving badly. Secondly, many people who might have been limited, or shunned, or frowned upon by committing acts that are seen as poor, feel emboldened to do these things. People feel like they're ok shouting things at football matches that at some point they weren't allowed to say or do. Some of that also relates to some of the changing attitudes. Saying some things are not ok now. I also think in some ways, you've seen some of the demographics of who attends football change. As ticket prices have gone up, you've seen some of the lower classes, along with potentially immigrant groups be priced out of attending matches. Tickets are also controlled by the same groups, and in many cases passed down to generations, so they don't have exposure to new fans. The isolation does breed a familiarity and resentment against the other. 

As for why it's not as prevalent in North American culture, it certainly is. It's just somewhat been sanitized or limited in scope. If you don't think it has happened in droves in college football games or basketball games or whatever, you probably have had your head in the sand. I do think though that some of the differences in someways are the fact that the US has long gone through much of the growing pains of needing to overcome integration into sports, and went through much of it in the 1940s (and in college sports much earlier). Sure, there's still some issues with it in some areas, and the racism is still there, but I think some of the explanation as to why it's different in Europe is there are many places in Europe where they don't have a lot of diversity. There are parts of the US that aren't very diverse, but athletically, every major sport (sans Hockey) has been integrated, and most to a large degree since the 1940s and 1950s. If you look at most of the major sports, there's really only hockey as the outlier that isn't dominated by non-white people. Basketball, Baseball, Football, Soccer, all of the sports are overwhelmingly diverse, many times not reflective of the populations that they exist in. If you look at some of the rosters of European football clubs, most of the clubs in smaller leagues, still really only have what are traditionally, white European players. If you go down your secondary or tertiary leagues, there might be one or two import players. Maybe. Heck, it's not that far in the past to where most of the English league rosters had just a few imported players outside of Great Britain. If you get beyond the top level or two, that's even more pronounced (although in England, there have been quite a few immigrants post WWII to increase diversity in sports). But many clubs have long been not a big location of diversity. And if they are, some of that drives some of the racism, because the player becomes the other. So combine what has long been a bit more radicalized, along with lack of exposure and integration, and you get people acting like idiots. But I wouldn't say that they have a greater problem than say in the United States. There are parts of Eastern or Southern Europe where it's a bit more prevalent, but some of that is related to having a greater rise of the far right, or feeling more stress of immigration. Racism isn't something one area has a monopoly on. But I think there was for a while (maybe it's less so of late) a greater taboo on doing things that are overtly racist in public in the United States. You maybe don't see the same society shunning in Europe that you did for a while in the US to overtly racist stuff. It doesn't meant that Americans weren't racist or didn't do things that were racist. But at least in the public sports arena, it was something that would see condemnation.


----------



## bleedblue1223

I'm not saying it doesn't happen in NA sports. Subban has gotten monkey chants, and there has been plenty of reports in basketball, football, baseball, and soccer too. It's just less overt IMO. You don't see fanbases calling other fanbases antisemitic slurs or homophobic slurs, at least not nearly as much, where in Europe you can here the chants in games. It's the level of overtness that is the difference to me.


----------



## Chimaera

There's no completely fair way to adjudicate the money for either system. You could go the La Liga route, and that means the rich continue to get rich. You could more equitably share the revenues, and that means that the lower tier sides in the top might overspend their means and end up in critical and financial jeopardy. There's an article floating around from a week or two ago, about how West Ham could basically be in serious trouble were they to go down financially. Now, West Ham isn't a small club. They have a massive (albeit not a good football experience), relatively new stadium. They have a big supporter base. They're in London. But they've also tried to spend like they're the 5th or 6th biggest team, while not seeing a return on many of their player investments. They've paid big wages, agent fees, whacked managers, etc. Yet, if they had invested better, maybe they could have sold a player or two for a profit. Maybe developed better youth talent moving through. Maybe not gone through a few of the managers. 

They're not the only ones, other clubs down near the bottom (Villa is probably example 1B this season, with Fulham being example 1B last season) have spent heavily, probably unwisely, and they're going to pay for it. 

The issue at hand with the EPL tv deal is less that it brings in more money equitably, it's more that they now have more competitors for the same talent pool. If there's a decent striker or two available from France that's looking to move to the EPL, now there are 4 or 5 clubs who can match the money, who can afford it. That means the club able to get it over the line probably is spending much more in wages than they used to need to spend. Teams are bidding against themselves and their direct competitors (with justification). I mean, take Haller or Joelinton. Who in their right mind would have spent 40-45 million pounds on either even 3 or 4 seasons ago? Now? Sure, they're expensive, but other clubs would have been in for them. Maybe not completely Joelinton, but someone would have been after them at some point. So you have teams paying way more than they probably should for players who probably aren't worth it (I think Haller's a decent player, but I think the money is ridiculous). Knowing if they don't go out and get a player or two, their direct rivals will do so. So, the success of the league is getting clubs in too deep.


----------



## Chimaera

bleedblue1223 said:


> I'm not saying it doesn't happen in NA sports. Subban has gotten monkey chants, and there has been plenty of reports in basketball, football, baseball, and soccer too. It's just less overt IMO. You don't see fanbases calling other fanbases antisemitic slurs or homophobic slurs, at least not nearly as much, where in Europe you can here the chants in games. It's the level of overtness that is the difference to me.




I mean, I think you see some of that more based upon the direct supporter to supporter rivalries. There's more tribalism that isn't as much the case. You sit next to fans of different teams in all American sports. In Europe, you're penned off. You're separated. Heck, before TV and following a club when they went away, supporters in Liverpool would go to whichever team was home. The Merseyside Derby used to let supporters sit wherever. Now? No chance. 

If I go to a Caps game, I'm likely to see fans from whatever team they're playing. If I go to the NFL team in DC, I'm likely to see more opposing fans than locals. DC is transient, and the owner is awful, but it's just kinda how it is. So, it's hard to be too against an opposing fan, if I'm likely to sit next to them.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Chimaera said:


> I mean, I think you see some of that more based upon the direct supporter to supporter rivalries. There's more tribalism that isn't as much the case. You sit next to fans of different teams in all American sports. In Europe, you're penned off. You're separated. Heck, before TV and following a club when they went away, supporters in Liverpool would go to whichever team was home. The Merseyside Derby used to let supporters sit wherever. Now? No chance.
> 
> If I go to a Caps game, I'm likely to see fans from whatever team they're playing. If I go to the NFL team in DC, I'm likely to see more opposing fans than locals. DC is transient, and the owner is awful, but it's just kinda how it is. So, it's hard to be too against an opposing fan, if I'm likely to sit next to them.



I'll take Blues/Blackhawks as an example. Most of the fans are fine, but in a lot of the games, you are bound to see drunken idiots on each side start a fight with each other. You don't hear fans chanting slurs at them though. 

At a Chiefs/Patriots game in KC, my wife prior to meeting her and her female friend who are both Patriots game, were getting heckled pretty bad by drunken idiots to the point where they don't really have interest in going back. It was the game where the Chiefs won and everyone wondered if that was the start of Brady's downfall a few years ago. I would characterize NA sports fans as much more in that drunken idiot group, where the problems in Europe seem a bit different, but maybe that's just because of how the media frames it.


----------



## Chimaera

Oh, there are still plenty of drunken idiots in Europe. Some of the stuff happening with the racism and the bigotry is definitely encouraged by alcohol. 

Sure, there's dumb stuff said at sports here in the US. I've definitely had stuff said to me when I've been to games in Pittsburgh or Philly. I've even see some people get a beer tossed at them. But I've also never really felt completely unsafe either. It's a weird situation.


----------



## Havre

Clubs making poor decisions isn't a reason to change the system. La Liga is in my opinion ruined. The PL isn't perfect, but you got a lot better shot at doing a Leicester or actually having 5-6 teams that could realistically win the league over a 10 year period. Part of the reason is because you don't have the silly system they got in Spain (aren't they changing it to be more like the PL?). Obviously more to it in Spain- Madrid vs Catalonia etc.

Also when you go down in England you still get some extra money for a period to make sure clubs are in a better position to phase out contracts etc. that are not sustainable in the Championship.

I wish CL money would be distributed to all teams in the league the money stems from. Then you wouldn't get the socialist system that I don't like in the NHL, but you would get even more competitive leagues while at the same time incentivising clubs to build up commercial revenue etc.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Havre said:


> Clubs making poor decisions isn't a reason to change the system. La Liga is in my opinion ruined. The PL isn't perfect, but you got a lot better shot at doing a Leicester or actually having 5-6 teams that could realistically win the league over a 10 year period. Part of the reason is because you don't have the silly system they got in Spain (aren't they changing it to be more like the PL?). Obviously more to it in Spain- Madrid vs Catalonia etc.
> 
> Also when you go down in England you still get some extra money for a period to make sure clubs are in a better position to phase out contracts etc. that are not sustainable in the Championship.
> 
> I wish CL money would be distributed to all teams in the league the money stems from. Then you wouldn't get the socialist system that I don't like in the NHL, but you would get even more competitive leagues while at the same time incentivising clubs to build up commercial revenue etc.



I always find it funny that in NA sports, it's much more of a socialist system in terms of revenue sharing and salary cap, and in Europe it's much more of the laissez-faire capitalism system.


----------



## robertmac43

bleedblue1223 said:


> I also don't know what clubs are expected to do when some of these incidents occur outside of the stadium. You can't really control that behavior, you can't enforce the racism out of someone.



This is where educating fans should become more of a priory. The prem is partnered with 'kick it out' I believe, but I don't know what that entails other than the teams wearing shirts that say no to racism every now and again. About Us


----------



## bleedblue1223

robertmac43 said:


> This is where educating fans should become more of a priory. The prem is partnered with 'kick it out' I believe, but I don't know what that entails other than the teams wearing shirts that say no to racism every now and again. About Us



Yes, but it's way too big of an issue for sports clubs to solve. I think they have a part to play, but it should be a pretty minor part. I don't see a racist changing his opinion because of an initiative by a sports club. I think the clubs should do it to promote the culture that they want for the club though.

I think for some of these initiatives, the people in charge just sort of pat themselves on the back for doing something good, but in reality, they aren't really doing much. Maybe I'm just too much of a cynic though.


----------



## Havre

bleedblue1223 said:


> I always find it funny that in NA sports, it's much more of a socialist system in terms of revenue sharing and salary cap, and in Europe it's much more of the laissez-faire capitalism system.




Yeah. It is odd. Even if "socialism" in "Europe" (Europe hardly got one system of anything) is very often misunderstood in NA.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Havre said:


> Yeah. It is odd. Even if "socialism" in "Europe" (Europe hardly got one system of anything) is very often misunderstood in NA.



No, I agree, just how I wouldn't say the States are laissez-faire, I wouldn't characterize Europe as socialist. Europe just leans more towards the socialism spectrum than the States, but in sports economics, they flip.


----------



## robertmac43

Chimaera said:


> Oh, there are still plenty of drunken idiots in Europe. Some of the stuff happening with the racism and the bigotry is definitely encouraged by alcohol.




Encouraged yes, but it's still a deeper societal issue for most areas of the world. It seems sports is just a place fans believe they can vent and get away with lashing out some of the beliefs they closet in every day society. The drunkenness encourages them but it's no excuse for the behaviors (not that you were insinuating that it was).


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

I think it's hilarious that apparently the one reason to justify a totalitarian state is making sure millionaire footballers don't have to hear a handful of fools say stupid stuff. Not terrorism, not rampant drug trafficking or corruption, nope, 5 louts making monkey sounds. 

Neither England nor Bulgaria nor Croatia nor Hungary or Italy can stop people from opening their mouths in whichever way they want in a massive public event attended by many thousands of people short of applying the type of crowd control that would turn stadiums into concentration camps. 

It's an unpleasant reality that things happen we don't want to happen, people believe things you don't like, people say things you find offensive. It's neither the end of the world nor a reason to question everything or slander entire countries.


----------



## Chimaera

It’s less about the incident occurring. It’s more the head in the sand result.

It’s hard for everyone involved to take real ownership of responsibility to correct the problems. 

Clubs need to do more to police it, but so do supporters. Education at the youth level is critical, but supporters need to turn in bad fans.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

I'd love to read this article about West Ham being "in trouble" if they get relegated. They're top 20 in global revenue and they have plenty of assets to offload. Think they'd manage just fine. 

If the Davids f*cked off even better.


----------



## Chimaera

West Ham accounts describe Premier League survival as a financial ‘necessity’

Not much more reliable than the Guardian.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

There's a canyon wide difference between your assertion that they would "basically be in serious trouble" (an ominous, but ultimately meaningless phrase) and that article. Kind of seems like you just read the headline and walked away.

"Relegation from the Premier League is the greatest threat to West Ham’s financial wellbeing, according to accounts..." - Uhhhh, yeah? Losing that broadcast revenue is a kick in the balls.

"...and maintaining access to the broadcasting money available to Premier League sides is “an absolute necessity for the future wellbeing of the club” - Yes, any sustained period in the Championship would decimate the books. Going down and popping back up the PL is hardly a death knell (which by the way, already happened in 2011 when the club were in wayyyy worse financial condition). There are plenty of assets in the squad right now that would return good money, and those parachute payments soften the blow.

"The report adds that “the group’s principal risk remains that of the football club being relegated … with the serious financial consequences which follow” - Yes, there are serious financial consequences to getting relegated. And no, West Ham would not be in "serious trouble".


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Everyone desperate for the games to come back eh lol.


----------



## Jussi

NENT Group (Viasat channels) signed a new extension for the rights to the Nordic countries for 2022-2028. According to The Athletic, they paid two billion euros.


----------



## Chimaera

Jersey Fresh said:


> There's a canyon wide difference between your assertion that they would "basically be in serious trouble" (an ominous, but ultimately meaningless phrase) and that article. Kind of seems like you just read the headline and walked away.
> 
> "Relegation from the Premier League is the greatest threat to West Ham’s financial wellbeing, according to accounts..." - Uhhhh, yeah? Losing that broadcast revenue is a kick in the balls.
> 
> "...and maintaining access to the broadcasting money available to Premier League sides is “an absolute necessity for the future wellbeing of the club” - Yes, any sustained period in the Championship would decimate the books. Going down and popping back up the PL is hardly a death knell (which by the way, already happened in 2011 when the club were in wayyyy worse financial condition). There are plenty of assets in the squad right now that would return good money, and those parachute payments soften the blow.
> 
> "The report adds that “the group’s principal risk remains that of the football club being relegated … with the serious financial consequences which follow” - Yes, there are serious financial consequences to getting relegated. And no, West Ham would not be in "serious trouble".




You're really trying to argue semantics, more so than the key point. West Ham would be in financial trouble if they were to go down. If you want to argue over whether or not a 'threat' and financial trouble are vastly different things, I don't really have the time for you. Here's the basic question. Would they be in financial difficulty were they to go down? The answer is clearly yes. They've spent unwisely, have a high payroll and have a number of players who would leave if they were to go down. That turnover, and then reclaiming players to stay up if they did come back up would mean a massive problem. 2011's landscape is much different than 2020.

But the idea that you're trying to argue that there's a difference between consequences and trouble. Wow we're really grasping. 

Could they recover? Sure, parachute payments and a large fan base would solve some of the problems in the short term. But considering the ownership is clearly questioning some of the spending, I think it's a bigger issue than you want to admit.

I think if anything, the statements from ownership lead towards the belief that they're upset where the money has gone, and feel the financial outlook needs to be adjusted. If they went down, that's going to make it even harder.


----------



## maclean

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> I think it's hilarious that apparently the one reason to justify a totalitarian state is making sure millionaire footballers don't have to hear a handful of fools say stupid stuff. Not terrorism, not rampant drug trafficking or corruption, nope, 5 louts making monkey sounds.
> 
> Neither England nor Bulgaria nor Croatia nor Hungary or Italy can stop people from opening their mouths in whichever way they want in a massive public event attended by many thousands of people short of applying the type of crowd control that would turn stadiums into concentration camps.
> 
> It's an unpleasant reality that things happen we don't want to happen, people believe things you don't like, people say things you find offensive. It's neither the end of the world nor a reason to question everything or slander entire countries.




Stadiums already are fairly prison-like. All the security checks making sure you don't even bring in a water bottle, security guards everywhere, then everyone has pyrotechnics anyways, makes racist chants anyways. I think this points to one of the main reasons the situation is so different than in NA - in NA sports is commercial, it is a product that you buy a ticket to and expect to follow the rules laid down by owners who you have no relationship to. In Europe clubs were originally formed as grass-roots organisations and though they have grown into behemoths, there is still a sense of ownership among the fans (in some cases even actual ownership). What this entails is that fans feel the right to act however they want in many situations - that no one should be able to dictate how they act. Coupled with the general racist attitudes among those powered by conglomerated testosterone and alcohol, there is no feeling that they should hold back, and in contrast a feeling that they all feel the same way. But it is also a society-wide thing. In the US if you started chanting something racist at a game, there's a much bigger chance you're going to get punched in the face or outed for it and lose your job say.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Billy Gilmour has been officially promoted to the senior squad for Chelsea.


----------



## YNWA14

Hendo getting the respect he deserves


----------



## hatterson

The replies to that are.....special.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

maclean said:


> Stadiums already are fairly prison-like. All the security checks making sure you don't even bring in a water bottle, security guards everywhere, then everyone has pyrotechnics anyways, makes racist chants anyways. I think this points to one of the main reasons the situation is so different than in NA - in NA sports is commercial, it is a product that you buy a ticket to and expect to follow the rules laid down by owners who you have no relationship to. In Europe clubs were originally formed as grass-roots organisations and though they have grown into behemoths, there is still a sense of ownership among the fans (in some cases even actual ownership). What this entails is that fans feel the right to act however they want in many situations - that no one should be able to dictate how they act. Coupled with the general racist attitudes among those powered by conglomerated testosterone and alcohol, there is no feeling that they should hold back, and in contrast a feeling that they all feel the same way. But it is also a society-wide thing. In the US if you started chanting something racist at a game, there's a much bigger chance you're going to get punched in the face or outed for it and lose your job say.




I think the main difference in America is that I attend a sporting event as an individual - maybe in the company of a few friends or family members but ultimately as a private party. Psychologically that means I will behave in a way that assumes a level of personal accountability which means shame and embarrassment set in fairly easily for most people with bourgeois habits. That also means it's fairly easy to hold me responsible - if security guards come into my area to remove me, they will typically not encounter any resistance. People will look on, they don't know me, they don't care about me. 

In Europe, football support is a collective activity. Supporters groups have a level of cohesion somewhere between political movement and street gang. But even if you aren't part of such a group - the mere act of going into a ground and watching the game from a supporters' area (rather than say the main stand) has a way of making you part of a mob where your sense of personal responsibility is significantly diminished. There is a special energy and dynamism to crowds that act and understand themselves as such and it's very rare to see this in North American pro sports, but very common in European sports. Security guards would be foolish to enter supporters areas to remove a fan during the game. When they try, it's almost a given they will suffer in some form. More likely they will defer to cops in riot gear who themselves will only succeed if they use batons and pepper spray liberally. Fans know this and as a result there's less inhibition to acting in a completely debased fashion. Being a protected part of a mob is liberating, both in a good and bad way. It's part of what makes supporting such an adrenaline rush and thrill, but it also makes you something other than what you are in your normal life.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Chimaera said:


> You're really trying to argue semantics, more so than the key point. West Ham would be in financial trouble if they were to go down. If you want to argue over whether or not a 'threat' and financial trouble are vastly different things, I don't really have the time for you. Here's the basic question. Would they be in financial difficulty were they to go down? The answer is clearly yes. They've spent unwisely, have a high payroll and have a number of players who would leave if they were to go down. That turnover, and then reclaiming players to stay up if they did come back up would mean a massive problem. 2011's landscape is much different than 2020.
> 
> But the idea that you're trying to argue that there's a difference between consequences and trouble. Wow we're really grasping.
> 
> Could they recover? Sure, parachute payments and a large fan base would solve some of the problems in the short term. But considering the ownership is clearly questioning some of the spending, I think it's a bigger issue than you want to admit.
> 
> I think if anything, the statements from ownership lead towards the belief that they're upset where the money has gone, and feel the financial outlook needs to be adjusted. If they went down, that's going to make it even harder.



Again, the article you posted doesn't come close to making the assertion that you are. What does "financial difficulty" mean? Be specific. What does that look like? Financial *trouble* and "they're going to lose money" (i.e., consequences to relegation) ARE vastly different things and the connotations of the former, especially within the context of world football, have a lot more to do with a club's ability to recover than any short-term pain from relegation. West Ham's ability to bounce back up from the Championship is not the same as Wigan's. You allude to this yourself and then pivot to "ownership is clearly questioning some of the spending" as if the thing that logically follows from that is to not spend to get back up to the Premiership (which, again, is *exactly* what they did in 2011). When West Hams spends three consecutive years in the Championship we can talk about the long-term outlook of the club.

Had I known your point could be distilled down to "getting relegated means they're going to lose a lot of money", I'd have ignored you and moved on.

By the way, the biggest problem with West Ham spending poorly is the involvement of the owners themselves. If they left the spending to qualified football people instead of what David Sullivan's idiot son learned on Football Manager they'd be a lot better off. They should be "clearly questioning" themselves in the mirror.


----------



## YEM

phisherman said:


> They're at the point of living off of their past glory. Which is why only teams like Everton and Spurs offered them a job.



past glory for Ancelotti, eh? Only Liverpool have more points in the league since he took over.
and Spurs are 4th in points since Mou stepped in.


----------



## Savant

mmvvpp said:


> past glory for Ancelotti, eh? Only Liverpool have more points in the league since he took over.
> and Spurs are 4th in points since Mou stepped in.



Everton have been sneaky good minus their games against LFC recently. They are in the easy part of their schedule but they are getting some momentum.


----------



## les Habs

What I noticed a few weeks back was the scoring run Calvert-Lewin is on. If he keeps this up he could be in the top three for goals this season.


----------



## Cassano

Pep spitting facts


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Cassano said:


> Pep spitting facts




So, whos better? lol


----------



## bleedblue1223

Cassano said:


> Pep spitting facts




It's like he's read this board lol. That's also what makes him as good as he is, he doesn't really have an ego, and his players feed off that. He's kind of like Phil Jackson in a sense. Was Phil one of the best coaches in the NBA or did he just win because he had great players? Regardless, managing those personalities and keeping them focused on winning is a tough job and mark of a great manager.


----------



## Cassano

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> So, whos better? lol



I'm not sure, but it's hard to be the best when you're 22 points behind the top of the table.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Managing personalities isnt all what he does. He's a great tactician as well. I mean its pretty obvious how great he is. Those who dont see it, dont wanna see it at this point.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Cassano said:


> I'm not sure, but it's hard to be the best when you're 22 points behind the top of the table.



Yes, because we judge players/coaches on a monthly basis. Ridiculous


----------



## Cassano

bleedblue1223 said:


> It's like he's read this board lol. That's also what makes him as good as he is, he doesn't really have an ego, and his players feed off that. He's kind of like Phil Jackson in a sense. Was Phil one of the best coaches in the NBA or did he just win because he had great players? Regardless, managing those personalities and keeping them focused on winning is a tough job and mark of a great manager.



IMO Phil Jackson gets massive disrespect as a NBA coach, but that is for the Basketball forum on the website. I can make a thread.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Cassano said:


> I'm not sure, but it's hard to be the best when you're 22 points behind the top of the table.



We also don't evaluate who is best based on 1 season. 

Evaluating managers is tough for reasons that Pep was alluding to. There are so many different variations of managers and some would be an absolute failure in a different situation.


----------



## Cassano

The contrast with that interview by Pep and this legendary interview is shocking Lol.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Cassano said:


> IMO Phil Jackson gets massive disrespect as a NBA coach, but that is for the Basketball forum on the website. I can make a thread.



We don't really need to get into it, I was just trying to use another sport as a comp. You could use someone like Joe Torre from baseball or some of the hockey coaches during various dynasties. It seems we always have trouble determining how much credit actually goes to the coach when the teams are stacked with talent.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Yup real special in Tottenham. lol


----------



## Cassano

bleedblue1223 said:


> *We also don't evaluate who is best based on 1 season. *
> 
> Evaluating managers is tough for reasons that Pep was alluding to. There are so many different variations of managers and some would be an absolute failure in a different situation.



Unfortunately, the sport is ruthless this way. After making the CL finals 8 months ago, Pochettino was among the best and now he is without a job.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Cassano said:


> Unfortunately, the sport is ruthless this way. After making the CL finals 8 months ago, Pochettino was among the best and now he is without a job.



That doesn’t mean anything there’s no correlation.


----------



## SJSharks72

Cassano said:


> Unfortunately, the sport is ruthless this way. After making the CL finals 8 months ago, Pochettino was among the best and now he is without a job.



I don’t think you can say the sport. I think you can say fans but the sport no. There’s a reason Mou still gets jobs.


----------



## PansCyans




----------



## The Abusement Park

bleedblue1223 said:


> Evaluating managers is tough for reasons that Pep was alluding to. There are so many different variations of managers and some would be an absolute failure in a different situation.



There's so many factors that go into making a good manager. You have to be good tactically, good leader, a good people manager, a good scout, you have to read people well, you have to know when to make a ruthless decision, and so on and so forth. There's so much that goes on in that job that it's hard to balance everything perfectly, while keeping your players, owners, and fans happy.


----------



## bleedblue1223

The Abusement Park said:


> There's so many factors that go into making a good manager. You have to be good tactically, good leader, a good people manager, a good scout, you have to read people well, you have to know when to make a ruthless decision, and so on and so forth. There's so much that goes on in that job that it's hard to balance everything perfectly, while keeping your players, owners, and fans happy.



All that and then having the right players for your tactics and style.


----------



## The Abusement Park

bleedblue1223 said:


> All that and then having the right players for your tactics and style.



Hence the scouting. Gotta be able to find the right players for your system. 

Or be a flexible enough tactician that you don't need one style of team to win.


----------



## bleedblue1223

The Abusement Park said:


> Hence the scouting. Gotta be able to find the right players for your system.
> 
> Or be a flexible enough tactician that you don't need one style of team to win.



Yeah, but sometimes actually acquiring the player can be out of your hands.


----------



## The Abusement Park

bleedblue1223 said:


> Yeah, but sometimes actually acquiring the player can be out of your hands.



Also very true. There's a lot circumstances that can make a good manager look worse than he is by behind the scenes stuff. All in all it's just a ridiculously hard job.


----------



## S E P H

Woodward is extremely good at acquiring players though, 1 billion pounds worth of them...


----------



## The Abusement Park

S E P H said:


> Woodward is extremely good at acquiring players though, 1 billion pounds worth of them...



I mean it's not hard to acquire players and rack up numbers like that when you overpay for average players. 
(minus a couple)


----------



## Live in the Now

Guardiola: I could be sacked by Manchester City if I don't beat Real Madrid


----------



## Havre

Guardiola doesn't have an ego? To me it is so big you don't see it any longer. Not that I hold that against him. Humility is good in general, but in sports you got to have some of that good arrogance/ego. It doesn't help you as a manager if you fear the other manager is better than you so...


----------



## Chimaera

I mean, they should beat Real. 

But I think Liverpool running away with it, and a crash out of the CL would lead him to look longingly at another job.


----------



## Blender

bleedblue1223 said:


> Billy Gilmour has been officially promoted to the senior squad for Chelsea.



Well deserved. Has really impressed in his appearances. He's the type of player that suits the way the midfield game is going. Kante, Kovacic, RLC, and Gilmour bring the tempo and aggressiveness that you need these days to quickly transition the ball.


----------



## Blender




----------



## bleedblue1223

Assuming I'm reading that correctly, it's pretty obvious why City and Liverpool are the top 2 teams.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Chimaera said:


> I mean, they should beat Real.
> 
> But I think Liverpool running away with it, and a crash out of the CL would lead him to look longingly at another job.



Should? Funny how contrasting opinions are. Few weeks ago Madrid were going to thrash them according to some fans.

reality it will be a tightly contested game. I still think city takes it tho.


----------



## Blender

bleedblue1223 said:


> Assuming I'm reading that correctly, it's pretty obvious why City and Liverpool are the top 2 teams.



If Burnley could score they might be doing better than they are. I was most surprised by how high up the pitch they do most of their defending.

Sheffield isn't surprising considering how stingy defensively that team is. They just work and work for 90 minutes to suffocate attacks.


----------



## Cassano

SJSharks39 said:


> I don’t think you can say the sport. I think you can say fans but the sport no. There’s a reason Mou still gets jobs.



There also isn't a valid reason why a guy like Blanc hasn't gotten a job in 5 f***ing years. Mind blowing.


----------



## Cassano

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Should? Funny how contrasting opinions are. Few weeks ago Madrid were going to thrash them according to some fans.
> 
> reality it will be a tightly contested game. I still think city takes it tho.



Will Laporte be playing? If so, that will heavily influence who I believe wins the tie.

Man City can't play defense without him.


----------



## SJSharks72

Cassano said:


> There also isn't a valid reason why a guy like Blanc hasn't gotten a job in 5 ****ing years. Mind blowing.



There’s been rumors about him being offered but not accepting.


----------



## Chimaera

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Should? Funny how contrasting opinions are. Few weeks ago Madrid were going to thrash them according to some fans.
> 
> reality it will be a tightly contested game. I still think city takes it tho.



If Laporte is fit, and with a break, I think Pep has enough time to plan it out to beat Real. 

I think they rightly should beat them. Doesn't mean they will.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Cassano said:


> Will Laporte be playing? If so, that will heavily influence who I believe wins the tie.
> 
> Man City can't play defense without him.






Chimaera said:


> If Laporte is fit, and with a break, I think Pep has enough time to plan it out to beat Real.
> 
> I think they rightly should beat them. Doesn't mean they will.




Agreed, he has played since his big injury. Has he sustained another one or relapsed? madrid arent world beaters they have their own issues both teams do. I think City can win but we'll see.


----------



## hatterson

He played 78 minutes against Sheffield on 1/21 but hasn't been in the squad for the next 3 games.

I haven't heard anything about him having a setback though.


----------



## Cassano

hatterson said:


> He played 78 minutes against Sheffield on 1/21 but hasn't been in the squad for the next 3 games.
> 
> I haven't heard anything about him having a setback though.



I think if he's fit its 55/45 in favor of City, otherwise 80/20 in favor of Madrid.


----------



## bluesfan94

bleedblue1223 said:


> Assuming I'm reading that correctly, it's pretty obvious why City and Liverpool are the top 2 teams.



Also makes sense with Chelsea. Their defense is so porous that there aren't any defensive actions to passes in their own third. 

Makes sense with Arsenal too. We can't get the ball in the other half enough to actually play defense over there.


----------



## bleedblue1223

bluesfan94 said:


> Also makes sense with Chelsea. Their defense is so porous that there aren't any defensive actions to passes in their own third.
> 
> Makes sense with Arsenal too. We can't get the ball in the other half enough to actually play defense over there.



Yeah, I was going to make a joke about how Kepa doesn't actually do anything in the box, so that's why it's blue lol.


----------



## Blender

bleedblue1223 said:


> Yeah, I was going to make a joke about how Kepa doesn't actually do anything in the box, so that's why it's blue lol.



It makes sense for Chelsea as well because our midfielders and attacking players press very well and cause a lot of turnovers high up the pitch. Problem with Chelsea is if teams get a break on us our weak defense just folds and Kepa can't make a save.


----------



## bluesfan94

Blender said:


> It makes sense for Chelsea as well because our midfielders and attacking players press very well and cause a lot of turnovers high up the pitch. Problem with Chelsea is if teams get a break on us our weak defense just folds and Kepa can't make a save.



Yeah this is really what I meant but as an Arsenal fan, I had to throw in some banter


----------



## Havre

Blender said:


>




Thanks. Really cool. I remember when Spurs pressed high......

Not that I believe the high press is the only way to go. As with everything else when it comes to tactics I think we will see that change again.


----------



## maclean

Also, to press high you need the players that can do it. I've seen Arsenal players try to press high but I generally just preventively


----------



## Blender

maclean said:


> Also, to press high you need the players that can do it. I've seen Arsenal players try to press high but I generally just preventively



Yet both Burnley and Sheffield manage to do it with their budget squads...


----------



## hatterson

Blender said:


> Yet both Burnley and Sheffield manage to do it with their budget squads...




You don’t need high priced players to press high, but you do need the right players.


----------



## Havre

I thought Ozil was the right player for everything?


----------



## Cassano

Live in the Now said:


> Guardiola: I could be sacked by Manchester City if I don't beat Real Madrid



I tink Pep knew what was going on behind the scenes wrt. the City CL ban and gave these answers to the media. He may be trying to get sacked.


----------



## les Habs

Cassano said:


> I tink Pep knew what was going on behind the scenes wrt. the City CL ban and gave these answers to the media. He may be trying to get sacked.




I tink you're tinking too much about something that isn't there at all.


----------



## Havre

It's just Guardiola and his humbleness 

Will be interesting to see what happens. Sometimes it feels like "external" things like this makes teams play better. Assuming Guardiola doesn't go full Pochettino and starts to moan and sulk. I expect Guardiola to be far to intelligent for that to happen.


----------



## Cassano

les Habs said:


> I tink you're tinking too much about something that isn't there at all.



Probably haha


----------



## Cassano

Fired-up Man United defender Luke Shaw says Arsenal get an easy ride


----------



## Jussi

Harry Gregg: Munich air disaster hero and Northern Ireland goalkeeping great dies



> Gregg would become known as the 'hero of Munich' for his actions following the crash, where he rescued a number of survivors including a young baby and team-mates Bobby Charlton and Jackie Blanchflower from the wreckage.
> 
> Two weeks after pulling several team-mates from the wreckage of the Munich Air Disaster, Gregg kept a clean sheet as Manchester United put Sheffield Wednesday out of the FA Cup.


----------



## Stray Wasp

To listen to Harry Gregg talk about Munich was compelling. His reluctance to be called a hero only added to my admiration for him. 

The fact that he was voted the best goalkeeper at the 1958 World Cup deserves emphasis. His competition for that honour included Beara, Gilmar, Grosics and Lev Yashin.

May he rest in peace.


----------



## Jack Straw

Son played through the Villa game with a broken arm. Now will have surgery and will be out for a while.


----------



## Aladyyn

Jack Straw said:


> Son played through the Villa game with a broken arm. Now will have surgery and will be out for a while.




United definitely getting 4th this season


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Tis but a flesh wound


----------



## Havre

Football is fun. Lo Celso at RW then.


----------



## Jack Straw

They are going to need Lucas and Dele to step up. Dele was pretty active against Villa but not in an especially productive way.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

spintheblackcircle said:


> Tis but a flesh wound


----------



## Havre

One of the worst analogies I have ever heard. Never good when you start out saying "I like analogies- some are good and some are not so good etc"

So one already knew it was going to be one of the not so good ones. As for today's game it is almost so I hope Leipzig win. Spurs are never winning the CL and with no depth having less games for the remaining part of the season would help.

He is not wrong of course. If Spurs can get through this ending up top 4 I think that would be a huge boost considering all the problems this year.


----------



## hatterson

Sounds more like a Michael Scott analogy than something a real person would say.


----------



## Chimaera

I'll take a bit of a counter. This injury, along with the Kane one might spark Jose's me against the world. He doesn't have to cater any offensive talents (as they basically have Dele and Lucas now), and he can play the style he would like. 

I'm not saying they'll end up top 4, but I wouldn't be shocked if they do better than expected.


----------



## hatterson

Us against the world is good and all, but you still need to score goals. They're basically stuck with Dele, Bergwin, and Moura being their entire source of offense for an extended period.


----------



## Havre

I agree with the way Mourinho is playing it. He challenges the squad to overcome these challenges. Obviously the way to go - instead of sulking like Pochettino would have done.


----------



## maclean

I will say this, the last few years Spurs have been extremely lucky as far as player health has gone. There was a year or two there where they had no depth at all and they managed to avoid any major injuries. Considering all the fronts they were fighting on last year they also got off quite well. Now it's catching up to them. Does make me wonder though, do they have no prospects they can give a chance? Mourinho makes it sound like the cupboard is just plain bare.


----------



## Havre

maclean said:


> I will say this, the last few years Spurs have been extremely lucky as far as player health has gone. There was a year or two there where they had no depth at all and they managed to avoid any major injuries. Considering all the fronts they were fighting on last year they also got off quite well. Now it's catching up to them. Does make me wonder though, do they have no prospects they can give a chance? Mourinho makes it sound like the cupboard is just plain bare.




Well.

*Number of injuries in the 2018/19 season*

Man United – 61
Tottenham – 42
Liverpool – 37
Huddersfield – 36
Newcastle – 36
Arsenal – 35
Cardiff – 35
Man City – 35
Bournemouth – 33
Watford – 33
Crystal Palace – 30
Chelsea – 29
Southampton – 28
Everton – 27
West Ham – 27
Burnley – 25
Brighton – 22
Fulham – 19
Leicester – 13
Wolves – 5

Looks slightly better in terms of days, but to say Spurs have been "extremely lucky" counting 18/19 as one of the years is clearly completely wrong.

Man United's injured stars miss most amount of days in Premier League

This year Spurs are the team in the PL that have used the highest number of players.

I believe you are correct that fewer injuries in 2017/18. Alderweireld and Rose were the two big losses that season if I remember correctly. Dembele and Lamela doesn´t really count as that is self inflicted harm one could argue.

All that a bit simplified of course. Liverpool had many injuries last year, but their core was mainly healthy. Every single key Spurs player excluding Eriksen I believe from Lloris, Alderweireld, Son, Kane, Alli etc. have had at least one quite significant injury over the last years. I blame Pochettino partly for that, but it also comes down to randomness/luck. Key Spurs players have been played too much I believe, but I doubt they have played more than the key Liverpool players.


----------



## Cassano




----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Havre said:


> Well.
> 
> *Number of injuries in the 2018/19 season*
> 
> Man United – 61
> Tottenham – 42
> Liverpool – 37
> Huddersfield – 36
> Newcastle – 36
> Arsenal – 35
> Cardiff – 35
> Man City – 35
> Bournemouth – 33
> Watford – 33
> Crystal Palace – 30
> Chelsea – 29
> Southampton – 28
> Everton – 27
> West Ham – 27
> Burnley – 25
> Brighton – 22
> Fulham – 19
> Leicester – 13
> Wolves – 5
> 
> Looks slightly better in terms of days, but to say Spurs have been "extremely lucky" counting 18/19 as one of the years is clearly completely wrong.
> 
> Man United's injured stars miss most amount of days in Premier League
> 
> This year Spurs are the team in the PL that have used the highest number of players.
> 
> I believe you are correct that fewer injuries in 2017/18. Alderweireld and Rose were the two big losses that season if I remember correctly. Dembele and Lamela doesn´t really count as that is self inflicted harm one could argue.
> 
> All that a bit simplified of course. Liverpool had many injuries last year, but their core was mainly healthy. Every single key Spurs player excluding Eriksen I believe from Lloris, Alderweireld, Son, Kane, Alli etc. have had at least one quite significant injury over the last years. I blame Pochettino partly for that, but it also comes down to randomness/luck. Key Spurs players have been played too much I believe, but I doubt they have played more than the key Liverpool players.




And, now, Son. That's tragic.


----------



## maclean

Havre said:


> Well.
> 
> *Number of injuries in the 2018/19 season*
> 
> Man United – 61
> Tottenham – 42
> Liverpool – 37
> Huddersfield – 36
> Newcastle – 36
> Arsenal – 35
> Cardiff – 35
> Man City – 35
> Bournemouth – 33
> Watford – 33
> Crystal Palace – 30
> Chelsea – 29
> Southampton – 28
> Everton – 27
> West Ham – 27
> Burnley – 25
> Brighton – 22
> Fulham – 19
> Leicester – 13
> Wolves – 5
> 
> Looks slightly better in terms of days, but to say Spurs have been "extremely lucky" counting 18/19 as one of the years is clearly completely wrong.
> 
> Man United's injured stars miss most amount of days in Premier League
> 
> This year Spurs are the team in the PL that have used the highest number of players.
> 
> I believe you are correct that fewer injuries in 2017/18. Alderweireld and Rose were the two big losses that season if I remember correctly. Dembele and Lamela doesn´t really count as that is self inflicted harm one could argue.
> 
> All that a bit simplified of course. Liverpool had many injuries last year, but their core was mainly healthy. Every single key Spurs player excluding Eriksen I believe from Lloris, Alderweireld, Son, Kane, Alli etc. have had at least one quite significant injury over the last years. I blame Pochettino partly for that, but it also comes down to randomness/luck. Key Spurs players have been played too much I believe, but I doubt they have played more than the key Liverpool players.




I guess it's a matter of perspective.  For the current situation, losing both Kane and Son is obviously a big blow, but Mourinho is acting like there's just no one they can play there. Like they have no choice but to play without strikers. If we lost both Laca and Auba of course it would be shitty, but you give some youth a chance and work with it. Honestly I feel like our players are injured all the time and our defence, which is no grand affair at the best of times, has been decimated by injuries forever. I can't remember the last time we had our theoretically best defence available. But I've never seen our coaches complaining in the sense of "Well, we just have no one to play. There's literally no one, or they all suck." That's what Mourinho is saying and he's a whiny little bitch and it's insulting to the players that are waiting for a chance to boot.


----------



## Pensionsraddare

Cassano said:


>





They will still talk about our "clowndefense" though. Mustafi has been a rock. Might save his Arsenalcareer this spring. He was practically out of the club. You don't see any criticism about him nowadays.


----------



## Havre

maclean said:


> I guess it's a matter of perspective.  For the current situation, losing both Kane and Son is obviously a big blow, but Mourinho is acting like there's just no one they can play there. Like they have no choice but to play without strikers. If we lost both Laca and Auba of course it would be shitty, but you give some youth a chance and work with it. Honestly I feel like our players are injured all the time and our defence, which is no grand affair at the best of times, has been decimated by injuries forever. I can't remember the last time we had our theoretically best defence available. But I've never seen our coaches complaining in the sense of "Well, we just have no one to play. There's literally no one, or they all suck." That's what Mourinho is saying and he's a whiny little bitch and it's insulting to the players that are waiting for a chance to boot.




That is not what you said though.

Mourinho hasn't really whined at all since he took over at Spurs, but I guess one hear what one wants to hear.

I wasn't very positive to Mourinho taking over Spurs, but so far he has been positive and constructive 99% of his time. That you and some in the media focuses on that 1% because it confirms previously held believes is another thing. Same with Mourinho buying just old players. Which objectively clearly isn't true.

And I will be among the first to react if he starts to whine. You will find old posts from me complaining about Pochettino whining long before the media had picked up on that. Obviously I am not always right when it comes to these things (I'm not D2M or les habs good), but I was right that the whiny path Pochettino was on could only lead to one thing. So if Mourinho starts with the same kind of behaviour, that we saw at Utd, be sure I will not defend him.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

....how can anyone not like this dude?


----------



## bleedblue1223

I love when the pros understand what it's all about.


----------



## phisherman

We Asked Every Premier League Club What They Would Do If a Player Walked Off After Being Racially Abused

Let the judgement begin.


----------



## bleedblue1223

In defense of some clubs, it's probably a difficult decision to make. It's probably best for the league to empower the refs to just suspend play altogether and have all players leave the field until the situation is handled. Once that happens enough and the league really makes a stand, then hopefully you'd start to change some behavior, at least inside the stadium.


----------



## hatterson

bleedblue1223 said:


> In defense of some clubs, it's probably a difficult decision to make. It's probably best for the league to empower the refs to just suspend play altogether and have all players leave the field until the situation is handled. Once that happens enough and the league really makes a stand, then hopefully you'd start to change some behavior, at least inside the stadium.




That was essentially United's response along with a note how there's a lot of behind the scenes work being done to empower players to report stuff like that so the protocols can be follow properly. That was seen with the incident with City earlier this year.


----------



## Live in the Now

Ours and Arsenal's are the only correct answer.


----------



## bleedblue1223

I mean, the only correct answer is how you actually act when it happens. There are plenty of people and organizations that say the right things and then do the exact opposite.


----------



## Havre

Now it is established that I am racist on this board, but I don't see how walking off would be the best solution in all cases. Should Rudiger have walked off when the police found nothing investigating the case? What if a player misunderstands something? All the Poolfans on here will remember Suarez and his "misunderstanding" (I don't believe Suarez for a second, but I can't categorically say he is also a liar).

I don't know what the right action is in every circumstance, but I don't think walking off would be the best way to handle the issue by default. Innocent until proven guilty is sometimes hard to accept, but I firmly believe in that principle. And I don't accept that the "victim" is always right. Same issue when it comes to sexual harassment etc. There is little that makes me as angry as those kind of cases, but unfortunately the victim isn't always right there either. Not sure if we will ever solve that dilemma- wanting to believe the victim while at the same time upholding that people are innocent until prove guilty.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

Havre said:


> Now it is established that I am racist on this board, but I don't see how walking off would be the best solution in all cases. Should Rudiger have walked off when the police found nothing investigating the case? What if a player misunderstands something? All the Poolfans on here will remember Suarez and his "misunderstanding" (I don't believe Suarez for a second, but I can't categorically say he is also a liar).
> 
> I don't know what the right action is in every circumstance, but I don't think walking off would be the best way to handle the issue by default. Innocent until proven guilty is sometimes hard to accept, but I firmly believe in that principle. And I don't accept that the "victim" is always right. Same issue when it comes to sexual harassment etc. There is little that makes me as angry as those kind of cases, but unfortunately the victim isn't always right there either. Not sure if we will ever solve that dilemma- wanting to believe the victim while at the same time upholding that people are innocent until prove guilty.



LFC current CEO and Manager are VERY different than the previous one. They issued an apology to Evra (better late than never but naysayer say it is just for the looks) I truly believe that they would back any player that is racially abused. They have changed a lot although that stigma around Suarez even with all the apologies and mea culpa is still present.


----------



## Havre

JeffreyLFC said:


> LFC current CEO and Manager are VERY different than the previous one. They issued an apology to Evra (better late than never but naysayer say it is just for the looks) I truly believe that they would back any player that is racially abused. They have changed a lot although that stigma around Suarez even with all the apologies and mea culpa is still present.




My point wasn't to criticize Liverpool, even if I thought they handled that situation poorly, my point is did Suarez say something racist? I personally believe so, but how can I know? How can anyone know?

So even if it is easy to say that one should never accept racism etc (which I, even as a racist, wholeheartedly agree with) it isn't always that easy to determine in reality. The same way VAR in theory is just supposed to fix errors it doesn't really work that way in reality.

Obviously not the end of the world if Evra walks off and a game is stopped after such an incident, but it would be rather sad if you start to stop games due to misunderstandings etc. I fear that could lead to more and not less racism.


----------



## Burner Account

I feel like players should be allowed to walk.

Those who want to walk off are talking about racism. Those who don’t want to let players to walk are talking about a game. Two different things.


----------



## Stray Wasp

bleedblue1223 said:


> I mean, the only correct answer is how you actually act when it happens. There are plenty of people and organizations that say the right things and then do the exact opposite.




Indeed. The other point about this article is that, unless my reading comprehension is even lower than it was last week (which is plausible), the reader doesn't get to see the precise question the clubs were asked.

To me that's important because I'd like to know whether the question was couched more in terms of general principles - along the lines of "would you support a player on either side leaving the pitch if they suffered racist abuse during the game?" or was it more "would you support one of _your_ players etc." (my italics).

Self-interest makes one of the above questions simpler to answer with piety than the other.

Hopefully I can point out that Arsenal's answer as quoted refers specifically to _their _players without people taking this as proof that I am Grand Dragon of the Temple of Arsenalophobia (South East London Division). I stress, it may simply be their response to the question in line with the way it was framed.

The real surprise would be if anyone came out and said,

"Oh, yeah, well, we really don't give a toss if some social inadequate is comparing the phenomenal athletes we employ to animals, or suggesting their skin colour and/or ethnicity renders them automatically inferior to some pasty-faced character safely ensconced in a large crowd predominantly comprised of other pasty-faced characters. All we care about is money and power. Are you going to give us more money? Are you going to give us more power? You're not? Well, f*** off then. We're the Premier League, and we'd do business with Chairman Mao in the morning, Reinhard Heydrich after lunch and slide in a deal with Idi Amin before closing time if there was enough cash in it. The question isn't 'are you racist', it's 'does your racism interfere with our expanding our wealth and clout'?"

Mind you, an amusing thing in the article is how many clubs were so cautious about saying the wrong thing they didn't even roll out the "racism is a bad thing" platitude the author themselves refers to.


----------



## Stray Wasp

Not that everything I said above couldn't be applied to a lot of other European leagues. If not all.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Yeah, a lot saw Vice and immediately got careful because who knows how they'll spin it.


----------



## hatterson

Havre said:


> Now it is established that I am racist on this board, but I don't see how walking off would be the best solution in all cases. Should Rudiger have walked off when the police found nothing investigating the case? What if a player misunderstands something? All the Poolfans on here will remember Suarez and his "misunderstanding" (I don't believe Suarez for a second, but I can't categorically say he is also a liar).
> 
> I don't know what the right action is in every circumstance, but I don't think walking off would be the best way to handle the issue by default. Innocent until proven guilty is sometimes hard to accept, but I firmly believe in that principle. And I don't accept that the "victim" is always right. Same issue when it comes to sexual harassment etc. There is little that makes me as angry as those kind of cases, but unfortunately the victim isn't always right there either. Not sure if we will ever solve that dilemma- wanting to believe the victim while at the same time upholding that people are innocent until prove guilty.




Liverpool’s response wasn’t that the team would walk off if there’s a racist incident, it’s that if one of their players felt they needed to walk off due to abuse, the entire team would walk off with them.

The response of United was that it would never get to that point because the protocols would be followed and players are trained and empowered to follow them.

Liverpool’s response is team unity, United’s is empowering the players though the systems in place and making sure those are followed.

Neither is wrong, they’re just different approaches.

In regards to guilty vs. innocent, that doesn’t really matter in a situation like happened in Porto. Regardless of whether a player did or didn’t receive racial abuse (there’s boatloads of evidence he did), he felt he needed to walk off the pitch and the response of his teammates was to care far more about the game itself than about the mental health of their teammate. It’s a pathetic showing to have multiple players (especially white players) attempting to physically prevent a guy from walking off the pitch because the fans are abusing him in a racial manner.


----------



## Havre

hatterson said:


> Liverpool’s response wasn’t that the team would walk off if there’s a racist incident, it’s that if one of their players felt they needed to walk off due to abuse, the entire team would walk off with them.
> 
> The response of United was that it would never get to that point because the protocols would be followed and players are trained and empowered to follow them.
> 
> Liverpool’s response is team unity, United’s is empowering the players though the systems in place and making sure those are followed.
> 
> Neither is wrong, they’re just different approaches.
> 
> In regards to guilty vs. innocent, that doesn’t really matter in a situation like happened in Porto. Regardless of whether a player did or didn’t receive racial abuse (there’s boatloads of evidence he did), he felt he needed to walk off the pitch and the response of his teammates was to care far more about the game itself than about the mental health of their teammate. It’s a pathetic showing to have multiple players (especially white players) attempting to physically prevent a guy from walking off the pitch because the fans are abusing him in a racial manner.




Not sure if you are addressing any of the real problems here. As a general principle "feeling the need to walk off" isn´t enough for me. 

If the players are white or not is completely irrelevant for me. Are you implying because they are white they cannot relate to the situation a player that is not white is experiencing?


----------



## maclean

In my ideal world the only good response to that is I'd hope our fans kick the crap out of the piece of **** before we even have to make an issue out of it. But there's less than a handful of clubs in the world where that would happen

*edit - jesus are the swearing filters off for some reason? is this an 18+ site now? i mean, i'm an adult, i can handle it, but what's going on?


----------



## Stray Wasp

Havre said:


> If the players are white or not is completely irrelevant for me. Are you implying because they are white they cannot relate to the situation a player that is not white is experiencing?




Hatterson can answer for himself on this.

For my part, I'd observe that history surely tells us human beings can often respond to the sight of other groups being victimised with a wish that it wasn't happening rather than a deed of solidarity. 

As for the general notion of football and empathy, well, for every heartwarming gesture we've seen enough examples of misogyny, homophobia, feckless parenting, greed, entitlement, immaturity, selfishness, violent posturing and espousal of insensitive political positions from players and/or coaches who used to be players to at least sow the seeds of doubt that they are the most thoughtful group in society.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

If Rudiger had decided to walk off, I would want every single Chelsea player walking off alongside him, and I'd be furious with anyone who didn't.


----------



## Havre

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> If Rudiger had decided to walk off, I would want every single Chelsea player walking off alongside him, and I'd be furious with anyone who didn't.




Obviously I will be judged as a Spursfan here, but there being no evidence anything happened is irrelevant?

This is just way too simplistic way of looking at things.

If this becomes the expected course of action I can almost but guarantee that teams will exploit this. Walk off in a losing position for then to say "we thought we heard something sorry we were wrong". The racists would love that to happen. Where do you then take it from there?


----------



## gary69

Yeah, walking offs would be abused by some clubs' spectator groups. Can the games last for 6 hours with numerous walk offs? Or if the games are abandoned, how many replays a team can be play during for example CL group stages?


----------



## Cassano

gary69 said:


> Yeah, walking offs would be abused by some clubs' spectator groups. Can the games last for 6 hours with numerous walk offs? Or if the games are abandoned, how many replays a team can be play during for example CL group stages?



Plus you know crazy ultras of certain teams will use this as a tactic if they know teams will be walking off the pitch.


----------



## Havre

Cassano said:


> Plus you know crazy ultras of certain teams will use this as a tactic if they know teams will be walking off the pitch.




That would be the pinnacle of world football - ultras singing racist songs to get games stopped.

What a sad world we live in.


----------



## hatterson

Havre said:


> If the players are white or not is completely irrelevant for me. Are you implying because they are white they cannot relate to the situation a player that is not white is experiencing?




I'm not saying they can't relate or empathize, I'm saying it's a bad look when a visible minority player is being abused as a result of the color of their skin and a bunch of white guys are telling him not to be so upset.


----------



## hatterson

Also, in regards to a walk off being abused, I'm far, far, far more concerned with making players who are abused feel empowered to do something than I am about the remote chance it's abused.


----------



## Havre

I would agree there is a balance, but I have no idea how to get it right. Again similar to sexual harassment. Obviously not good if it is impossible for anyone to come forward, but one should in my opinion be extremely conservative and careful in doing so. Being wrongfully accused could also lead to some serious consequences.

I remember Ibrahimovic being asked once about the racial abuse he was getting. His answer was something along the lines of "it says more about them than me". Honestly the only way I can see it ever completely stop is if it doesn't bite or work any longer. Easier said than done of course, but there are no easy solutions here.


----------



## hatterson

"People should stop being offended at racism" isn't a solution to racism.....


----------



## Havre

What is then?

And do you disagree with Zlatan's logic?


----------



## hatterson

Havre said:


> What is then?
> 
> And do you disagree with Zlatan's logic?




Concerted society wide effort is the only solution. In footballing terms, real consequences to racist behavior, both individually and corporately to provide positive peer pressure.

If an individual is found to engage in racist behavior they’re banned from local, country, continental, and international events.

If fans of a team in bulk are abusing players institute punishments on the team and fan base. Financial fines to the corporation, limited capacity matches, empty stadium matches, points deduction, game forfeits, etc.

Implement systems like the PL has in response to incidents with escalating consequences. Make an announcement -> match delay -> match postponement/abandonment. For repeated violations within a given timeframe (year or something) start a rung higher each time.

From a player standpoint, clubs need to ensure players are empowered to report and take action and are supported when they do so. Make players understand that a teammate being abused is far more important than a match so you don’t have a situation when a guy is repeatedly abused to the point he feels he needs to leave and a bunch of his teammates are literally holding him on the field because they care more about a game than about him.

Is it possible you end up with results where innocent people were punished or where people abuse the system? Sure it’s possible, but I’d much rather err on that side than on the side of having a player feels like he needs to walk off his job because of the color of his skin.

As far as Zlatan’s approach, that’s a good approach for individuals to take in certain circumstances (but not all), but it’s not a collective solution.

To compare it to something like bullying in school. Yes children should try, as much as they can, to not let a bully’s words get to them, but simply saying “just ignore it” isn’t remotely a solution on a school-wide basis.


----------



## Havre

hatterson said:


> Concerted society wide effort is the only solution. In footballing terms, real consequences to racist behavior, both individually and corporately to provide positive peer pressure.
> 
> If an individual is found to engage in racist behavior they’re banned from local, country, continental, and international events.
> 
> If fans of a team in bulk are abusing players institute punishments on the team and fan base. Financial fines to the corporation, limited capacity matches, empty stadium matches, points deduction, game forfeits, etc.
> 
> Implement systems like the PL has in response to incidents with escalating consequences. Make an announcement -> match delay -> match postponement/abandonment. For repeated violations within a given timeframe (year or something) start a rung higher each time.
> 
> From a player standpoint, clubs need to ensure players are empowered to report and take action and are supported when they do so. Make players understand that a teammate being abused is far more important than a match so you don’t have a situation when a guy is repeatedly abused to the point he feels he needs to leave and a bunch of his teammates are literally holding him on the field because they care more about a game than about him.
> 
> Is it possible you end up with results where innocent people were punished or where people abuse the system? Sure it’s possible, but I’d much rather err on that side than on the side of having a player feels like he needs to walk off his job because of the color of his skin.
> 
> As far as Zlatan’s approach, that’s a good approach for individuals to take in certain circumstances (but not all), but it’s not a collective solution.
> 
> To compare it to something like bullying in school. Yes children should try, as much as they can, to not let a bully’s words get to them, but simply saying “just ignore it” isn’t remotely a solution on a school-wide basis.




Concerted society wide effort? What does that mean? If Chelsea (and Spurs for that matter - not sure why it would be limited to the player "on my team") had walked off due to the alleged incident with Rudiger had that helped in any way?

As for "erring" in the "right" side I think that is a very simplistic way of looking at things. Accusing someone of doing something they haven´t done is extremely serious and shouldn´t be taken lightly. There is a reason why most legal systems work with "beyond a reasonable doubt". Why are so few rapist convicted? Extremely sad. Much more so in my opinion than most cases of racism (which isn´t in most cases physical at least). Do you advocate to "err" on the other side when it comes to convicting alleged rapists as well? This is back to one of my initial points. Believing the victim is fine, but it only works so far in reality.

As for some of the rest I would agree. Not sure why that is brought in to the discussion. I am not saying there shouldn´t be any punishment for racism. If the Police had found evidence of racist abuse towards Rudiger I think the fans and Spurs as a club should have been punished. No question. That is different to advocating for walking off the pitch - basically moving the burden of proof to the players.

I guess this is going a bit too off topic. My main point is if anyone think this is easy then they are wrong. Maybe players walking off the pitch will work. I have made my case why I don´t think that it will work, I can´t really see why it would, but obviously I don´t know.


----------



## AB13

Assists in all comps this season by some highly rated fullbacks

Brandon Williams: 0
Joao Cancelo: 1
Ben Davies: 1
Aaron Wan Bissaka: 2
Luke Shaw: 2
Reece James:3
Andrew Robertson: 6



Bukayo Saka: 10


----------



## Live in the Now

Only four or five of those were as a fullback.


----------



## AB13

Live in the Now said:


> Only four or five of those were as a fullback.




Good point, but I count 6, if you count his game as a wingback in a 343 in the UEL. It is still extremely impressive for an 18 year old ( as it would be for any player). He might be better suited to fullback going forward as I doubt if he has the skill in tight spaces to be a truly elite winger. He does have the attributes to be one of the best fullbacks in the world though.


----------



## Live in the Now

I don't think he'll be a fullback in the end.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

If Chelsea were halfway competent in front of goal than Reece James would have like 15 lmao


----------



## Havre

I remember the year Davies had 6 assists. All good, but a bit of randomness at play here as well.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

hatterson said:


> "People should stop being offended at racism" isn't a solution to racism.....




Its preposterous to believe that racism is something football is in any position to solve or even affect in any meaningful way.

At the end of the day if you look at this as a workplace issue we simply have to concede that being a footballer isnt the same as working an office job. Getting yelled at and verbally abused has been a part of the footballing profession for as long as anyone can remember. Football is a sport of proles and as such the rules of the back alley apply more than that of your regular office with its HR drones. Its not meant to be what a grad student or housewife think of as a polite or “safe” environment.

In my opinion this whole issue is trumped up to use as an excuse for further commercializing and sanitizing the sport. If a company’s HR rep feels comfortable at a football match down in the ends then the sport has lost its soul. Americans dont get it because American sport already lost it before any of us were born, its been about money and worshipping athletic feats for as long as anyone can remember.


----------



## bluesfan94

If I were a player and my teammate felt the need to walk off because of racial abuse, I would go up to him and ask him if it’s something he can ignore for the duration of the game. Remind him we all stand with him and love him and nothing fans say will change that. If he says it’s something he can’t ignore, I would walk off with him.


----------



## Chimaera

The entire team should walkoff and refuse to play. That type of statement will make an impact. Playing on, or letting 'authorities' handle it, when they've repeatedly shown to be unable to do so effectively, is not enough at this point.


----------



## Burner Account

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Its preposterous to believe that racism is something football is in any position to solve or even affect in any meaningful way.
> 
> At the end of the day if you look at this as a workplace issue we simply have to concede that being a footballer isnt the same as working an office job. Getting yelled at and verbally abused has been a part of the footballing profession for as long as anyone can remember. Football is a sport of proles and as such the rules of the back alley apply more than that of your regular office with its HR drones. Its not meant to be what a grad student or housewife think of as a polite or “safe” environment.
> 
> In my opinion this whole issue is trumped up to use as an excuse for further commercializing and sanitizing the sport. If a company’s HR rep feels comfortable at a football match down in the ends then the sport has lost its soul. Americans dont get it because American sport already lost it before any of us were born, its been about money and worshipping athletic feats for as long as anyone can remember.



Can you help me understand what your take is? Enduring racist abuse should be part of the job for professional athletes? Racism is a conspiracy? Racism adds to sport's soul?


----------



## Havre

Maybe someone should start a new thread? Racism in football?


----------



## hatterson

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> In my opinion this whole issue is trumped up to use as an excuse for further commercializing and sanitizing the sport.




This is one of the worst takes I've ever seen on this forum, and that's really saying something.


----------



## hatterson

Havre said:


> Maybe someone should start a new thread? Racism in football?




nO pOlItIcAl ThReAdS


----------



## Burner Account

Havre said:


> Maybe someone should start a new thread? Racism in football?



Maybe someone should start a board on this site for people to discuss things of this nature. I wonder what they would call it.


----------



## Havre

I don't see how discussing racism in football needs to become political.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

hatterson said:


> This is one of the worst takes I've ever seen on this forum, and that's really saying something.



Are you surprised by his post. I mean its pretty consistent with his other posts.


----------



## YEM

hatterson said:


> This is one of the worst takes I've ever seen on this forum, and that's really saying something.



and it could only come from the keyboard of someone whiter than a marshmallow
for shame


----------



## Cassano




----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

kyle evs48 said:


> Can you help me understand what your take is? Enduring racist abuse should be part of the job for professional athletes? Racism is a conspiracy? Racism adds to sport's soul?




Players play in front of 20,000 to 70,000 strangers. A significant number of them with hostile sentiment toward them, a lot of them drunk, a lot of them fellows with no good manners or much regard for the feelings of strangers whatsoever as you'd find out if you ever came across them on a dark street at 11 pm. 

This has been understood by footballers for 60-70 years. A player who's been in the papers for cheating on his wife, for being a drunkard, for balding early or what else will hear about it in a stadium in the rudest possible fashion. What do they do? They don't pay attention. They blur it out. It'd be a fool's errand to do anything else. Of course, you can pull a Cantona. That'd be fair enough, but you're not gonna be able to do that *every time* it happens.

A football crowd is a free for all, it's the anonymity of a crowd allowing the barbaric essential nature of man to come out. Something that isn't as well-concealed with those rough guys as it is with introvert college kids who do their boasting and trash talking only on the internet. That's the football we grew up with, that's the football crowd that is a fascinating, electrifying monster. Everything comes with light and shadow, and you can't have one without the other. 

I'd take a crowd with a few idiots yelling racist abuse that still maintains the essential freedom to be an anti-authoritarian community outside of a PR-friendly framework set by advertisers and officials over a 'clean' crowd of people hoping they get to be on the kiss cam and who clap when the big scoreboard tells them to clap.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

You’re actually a f***ing dumbass. Who should be banned from posting. Every one of your 12,000+ Posts is a cancer to the site. At no point have i ever read a post from you that was half way insightful or decent. I really couldnt care less about infraction i will get in calling you a .

for starters someone cheating on his wife or balding is miles different than suffering racial abuse. The white privilege to even suggest comparing them is idiotic for one point and extremely unpleasant. You can smell the white privilege reeking off of the post. 

60s and 70s football was like this so we shouldnt grow as a society but promote tolerance to their intolerance because racism brings passion and atmosphere to the game. Why stop their how about segregation too?

delete your account and piss off.

wtf is with those emojies.


----------



## hatterson

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> I'd take a crowd with a few idiots yelling racist abuse that still maintains the essential freedom to be an anti-authoritarian community outside of a PR-friendly framework set by advertisers and officials over a 'clean' crowd of people hoping they get to be on the kiss cam and who clap when the big scoreboard tells them to clap.




This says so, so much about you and none of it is good.


----------



## The Abusement Park

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Players play in front of 20,000 to 70,000 strangers. A significant number of them with hostile sentiment toward them, a lot of them drunk, a lot of them fellows with no good manners or much regard for the feelings of strangers whatsoever as you'd find out if you ever came across them on a dark street at 11 pm.
> 
> This has been understood by footballers for 60-70 years. A player who's been in the papers for cheating on his wife, for being a drunkard, for balding early or what else will hear about it in a stadium in the rudest possible fashion. What do they do? They don't pay attention. They blur it out. It'd be a fool's errand to do anything else. Of course, you can pull a Cantona. That'd be fair enough, but you're not gonna be able to do that *every time* it happens.
> 
> A football crowd is a free for all, it's the anonymity of a crowd allowing the barbaric essential nature of man to come out. Something that isn't as well-concealed with those rough guys as it is with introvert college kids who do their boasting and trash talking only on the internet. That's the football we grew up with, that's the football crowd that is a fascinating, electrifying monster. Everything comes with light and shadow, and you can't have one without the other.
> 
> I'd take a crowd with a few idiots yelling racist abuse that still maintains the essential freedom to be an anti-authoritarian community outside of a PR-friendly framework set by advertisers and officials over a 'clean' crowd of people hoping they get to be on the kiss cam and who clap when the big scoreboard tells them to clap.


----------



## Burner Account

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> I'd take a crowd with a few idiots yelling racist abuse that still maintains the essential freedom to be an anti-authoritarian community outside of a PR-friendly framework set by advertisers and officials over a 'clean' crowd of people hoping they get to be on the kiss cam and who clap when the big scoreboard tells them to clap.



I'm sorry I asked.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

hatterson said:


> This says so, so much about you and none of it is good.




That's alright. I'm not aiming to please, certainly not everyone all the time or randos on a message board.


----------



## The Abusement Park

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> That's alright. I'm not aiming to please, certainly not everyone all the time or randos on a message board.



I don’t think people should act a certain way to impress people on a message board, I agree with that. But being ok with and accepting racial abuse for what it is just isn’t ok.


----------



## bleedblue1223

This is why I'm fascinated to why there is such a difference between the experience between NA sporting events and Euro games in regards to racial abuse. It still happens in both, just in very different ways.

And players also want to deal with it in different ways. I remember PK Subban said in an interview that if someone threw a banana at him, that he'd just pick it up and eat it.

I do think leagues and clubs need to do things to prevent the more wide-spread abuse where you have big groups like ultras doing the racial abuse, but it'll be impossible for them to prevent a random person from doing something like that, in those scenarios it's how you react to it.


----------



## The Abusement Park

bleedblue1223 said:


> This is why I'm fascinated to why there is such a difference between the experience between NA sporting events and Euro games in regards to racial abuse. It still happens in both, just in very different ways.
> 
> And players also want to deal with it in different ways. I remember PK Subban said in an interview that if someone threw a banana at him, that he'd just pick it up and eat it.
> 
> I do think leagues and clubs need to do things to prevent the more wide-spread abuse where you have big groups like ultras doing the racial abuse, but it'll be impossible for them to prevent a random person from doing something like that, in those scenarios it's how you react to it.



And I think each player who experiences racial abuse should have the right to deal with it however they want. If you want to walk off in protest, hell yeah do it, I totally get that. If you want to brush it off because it doesn’t bother you, hell yeah do it. Each person is different and deals with things in their own ways and teammates especially should back them up in however they want to handle said situation


----------



## Havre

Ban upcoming for Dele Alli - for racism.


----------



## bleedblue1223

While there have been plenty of examples of racism with this coronavirus, I don't think that was one of them.

If the coronavirus started in Ireland, and he did the same video with a random person with red hair would he still get in trouble?


----------



## Havre

I agree. But the FA don't. But that is what a racist would say so...


----------



## bleedblue1223

Havre said:


> I agree. But the FA don't. But that is what a racist would say so...



It's either them bending the knee to China like the NBA did or more of the push to stop anything that can be considered controversial.


----------



## Havre

Kind of funny if that is considered "hate speech" considering some of the things their prime minister have said.

Not surprised though. I used to work for a British company and it is quite shocking how "sensitive" the English are to these kind of things (Scots not so much based on my experience).


----------



## bleedblue1223

I'm not saying that's what they are calling this incident, I just wasn't sure how to describe it without getting political with it, since I know how sensitive this site can get when politics comes up. I don't consider it hate speech, but I bet the people that don't like it might consider it that though. My assumption is that if that's considered racist then they also consider it hate speech.

I think it's just a younger guy trying to make a joke, and it's just another example of why social media is bad.


----------



## Havre

I think it is more an example of some cultures being hysterical. Anyway - my point wasn´t to start another off topic discussion. At least a potential Alli ban would be on topic.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Havre said:


> I think it is more an example of some cultures being hysterical. Anyway - my point wasn´t to start another off topic discussion. At least a potential Alli ban would be on topic.



If he does get banned, he'll miss an important match, so it'll hurt.


----------



## Cassano

bleedblue1223 said:


> While there have been plenty of examples of racism with this coronavirus, I don't think that was one of them.
> 
> If the coronavirus started in Ireland, and he did the same video with a random person with red hair would he still get in trouble?



Lol


----------



## Live in the Now

He took his camera pointed it right at a random Asian guy and started talking about coronavirus. He deserves his punishment and it is absolutely racist on all levels.

I think some of you may not be aware of the time when Lampard and John Terry walked up to randoms and making jokes about 9/11. They were fined very heavily.

Not sure what's wrong with some of you. It seems like most of the time it is the same people lining up to defend those accused of racist behavior.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Live in the Now said:


> He took his camera pointed it right at a random Asian guy and started talking about coronavirus. He deserves his punishment and it is absolutely racist on all levels.
> 
> I think some of you may not be aware of the time when Lampard and John Terry walked up to randoms and making jokes about 9/11. They were fined very heavily.
> 
> Not sure what's wrong with some of you.



Its embarrassing and tiresome I read it and just moved on. Thanks for commenting on it. 

whats this Lampard and terry incident?


----------



## Live in the Now

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> whats this Lampard and terry incident?






> Some team members went on a five-hour drinking binge - culminating in their stripping naked and vomiting in public. The players, who were said to have been ejected from the third pub they had visited, shouted, laughed, threw peanuts and reportedly abused other guests.
> 
> Many of the guests were Americans whose planes were grounded following the terrorist attacks two weeks ago.
> 
> Following complaints, the players have been fined two weeks' wages for the incident, which took place the day after the attack on September 11.
> 
> The players involved, including the England Under-21 stars Frank Lampard, Jody Morris and John Terry, were said to have sneered and laughed at grieving relatives in the Posthouse hotel. Eidur Gudjohnsen, the 23-year-old Iceland international, was also involved in the drinking session and has been fined.




Chelsea four fined for drunken abuse

If this happened now, someone would be banned I'm pretty sure of that.

What I was trying to say is that players have been punished for this kind of behavior no matter who they do it to.


----------



## bleedblue1223

That group were drunken idiots, not really sure what the comparison is. It always seemed a stretch to say their behavior was targeting Americans. I think they also tried diving head first down a bowling alley too.


----------



## Live in the Now

bleedblue1223 said:


> That group were drunken idiots, not really sure what the comparison is.




That the players ultimately represent their club and/or their league, and any foolishness they get up to should be dealt with in a matter that either body finds sufficient. If fans don't care about Alli picking out a random Asian person to make a coronavirus joke, or John Terry making a 9/11 joke, good for them I guess. I don't know why people don't care, but good for them. On the other hand, the players should learn a lesson that there are people who do care. I think if he filmed someone here and embarrassed them that way, they would probably be really angry.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Live in the Now said:


> That the players ultimately represent their club and/or their league, and any foolishness they get up to should be dealt with in a matter that either body finds sufficient. If fans don't care about Alli picking out a random Asian person to make a coronavirus joke, or John Terry making a 9/11 joke, good for them I guess. I don't know why people don't care, but good for them. On the other hand, the players should learn a lesson that there are people who do care. I think if he filmed someone here and embarrassed them that way, they would probably be really angry.



Terry wasn't in trouble because of a 9/11 joke...

He was a belligerent drunk do a lot of obnoxious behavior.


----------



## Live in the Now

bleedblue1223 said:


> Terry wasn't in trouble because of a 9/11 joke...




Did you not read the article or what?

*FOUR Chelsea footballers have been fined by their club for drunkenly abusing grieving Americans at a Heathrow hotel 24 hours after the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon.*

It's the same thing isn't it? Instead of abusing the guy to his face, Alli took the video and posted it on the internet. If he was embarrassing you in some way because of how you look, you'd probably be mad.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Live in the Now said:


> That the players ultimately represent their club and/or their league, and any foolishness they get up to should be dealt with in a matter that either body finds sufficient. If fans don't care about Alli picking out a random Asian person to make a coronavirus joke, or John Terry making a 9/11 joke, good for them I guess. I don't know why people don't care, but good for them. On the other hand, the players should learn a lesson that there are people who do care. I think if he filmed someone here and embarrassed them that way, they would probably be really angry.




No they should ignore it like tough men in the 60s did. Or something like that lol


----------



## Chimaera

It’s just insensitive and potentially can hurt sponsors. Sport and competition are best when they bring people together and help solve some of the worlds issues, not when players or supporters only contribute to them. 

It was obviously stupid and worthy of punishment. Harvey Elliott was banned completely for two weeks for mocking Kane. The FA rightfully should police it’s players. The club should as well.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Live in the Now said:


> Did you not read the article or what?
> 
> *FOUR Chelsea footballers have been fined by their club for drunkenly abusing grieving Americans at a Heathrow hotel 24 hours after the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon.*
> 
> It's the same thing isn't it? Instead of abusing the guy to his face, Alli took the video and posted it on the internet. If he was embarrassing you in some way because of how you look, you'd probably be mad.



He and the group wasn't in trouble because of a joke, it was because they were belligerent drunks and they were doing other rowdy behavior that night too. If a group got publicly drunk and stripped in public and slide down a bowling alley, they'd be fined today too.

If you want to use this incident, at least understand it.


----------



## Live in the Now

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> No they should ignore it like tough men in the 60s did. Or something like that lol




When someone says that, like I read all the time on this website from the likes of Big Phil, I can tell that guys like that who pretend to be old weren't even alive in the 1960s. Cause see, the way I understand how the 1960s work because people who were adults back then have told me so, when someone said something mean about someone else and that other person heard it, they would walk up to the other person and beat the brains out of them. Clearly this is a much more efficient way to make society work, but over here in the real world in 2020, everyone isn't sociopaths and people expect to be treated normally by each other.


----------



## Live in the Now

bleedblue1223 said:


> He and the group wasn't in trouble because of a joke, it was because they were belligerent drunks and they were doing other rowdy behavior that night too. If a group got publicly drunk and stripped in public and slide down a bowling alley, they'd be fined today too.
> 
> If you want to use this incident, at least understand it.




I understand the incident perfectly, thanks. The point is that both actions are unprofessional.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Live in the Now said:


> I understand the incident perfectly, thanks. The point is that both actions are unprofessional.



Terry and Lampard were unprofessional for being drunken idiots, not because they went up to randos and made jokes, that's how you presented, but ok then.


----------



## Live in the Now

bleedblue1223 said:


> Terry and Lampard were unprofessional for being drunken idiots, not because they went up to randos and made jokes, that's how you presented, but ok then.




If only there was video like with Alli so this could be more easily cleared up.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Live in the Now said:


> If only there was video like with Alli so this could be more easily cleared up.



It's all been well documented and they were just general a-holes to everyone that night, it's not like they were soberly taking on Americans.


----------



## Cassano

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Its embarrassing and tiresome I read it and just moved on. Thanks for commenting on it.
> 
> whats this Lampard and terry incident?



Facts, Lmao I couldn't believe what I was reading here from some posters.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Cassano said:


> Facts, Lmao I couldn't believe what I was reading here from some posters.




Bang up job by the mods... and Im not even calling for censorship. Just hand out the punishment. Hell I basically begged for one and got nothing. Lol


----------



## bleedblue1223

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Bang up job by the mods... and Im not even calling for censorship. Just hand out the punishment. Hell I basically begged for one and got nothing. Lol



Lol.


----------



## Cassano

The whole pretending to not understand act has been stupid as shit on here.

Alli's actions are blatant racism and if you can't see that, well that says a lot about yourself.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Cassano said:


> The whole pretending to not understand act has been stupid as shit on here.
> 
> Alli's actions are blatant racism and if you can't see that, well that says a lot about yourself.



I'd say Alli was more distasteful, but the racist behavior around the coronavirus are people that explicitly say the Chinese are inherently dirty and they are the reason disease spread. I've seen plenty of that out there and Alli's video isn't close to that.


----------



## Havre

Hopefully he will get at least 3 games. Been crap again after two good weeks with Mourinho.

Next question - how much better is the PL than La Liga now?


----------



## The Abusement Park

Havre said:


> Hopefully he will get at least 3 games. Been crap again after two good weeks with Mourinho.
> 
> Next question - how much better is the PL than La Liga now?



Is it better yet? Last year I’d say it was but this year not so much.


----------



## Havre

The Abusement Park said:


> Is it better yet? Last year I’d say it was but this year not so much.




I wasn't really being serious- just trying to get the thread away from racism. Probably racist of me to say that one league is better than the other 

I do believe City and Liverpool are better than RM and Barcelona though. So it was partly inspired by last night's result - even if RM obviously still could go through and Liverpool lose to AM.


----------



## AB13

Now that the Premier League is getting a hall of fame, I thought I would run through some of the best candidates for different clubs. Only retired players are elgible:

Arsenal - Henry, Bergkamp and Vieira
Man Utd - Giggs, Scholes and Schmeichel
Chelsea - Terry, Lampard and Drogba
Liverpool - Gerrard, Carragher and Fowler

And the less glamorous
Spurs - Pavlyuchenko, Kranjcar and Crouch
Man City - Andreas Isaksson, Darius Vasell and Michael Johnson


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Kompany, Rooney, Van der sar to name a few off the top of my head.


----------



## AB13

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Kompany, Rooney, Van der sar to name a few off the top of my head.




Kompany and Rooney are not retired. Van De Sar isn’t going in there before Schmeichel, Cech or Seaman in my opinion but he is a decent option.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

AB13 said:


> Kompany and Rooney are not retired. Van De Sar isn’t going in there before Schmeichel, Cech or Seaman in my opinion but he is a decent option.



Na they're retired... and Van der Sar deserves to be there. Doesnt matter what order.


----------



## hatterson

Assuming it's PL era only, here are the options United:

Cole
Schmeichel
Beckham
Scholes
Giggs
Keane

Rooney obviously once he retires.

I'd say Ronaldo too simply for how good he was during the shortish time he was in the PL.


----------



## AB13

hatterson said:


> Assuming it's PL era only, here are the options United:
> 
> Cole
> Schmeichel
> Beckham
> Scholes
> Giggs
> Keane
> 
> Rooney obviously once he retires.
> 
> I'd say Ronaldo too simply for how good he was during the shortish time he was in the PL.




No Vidic or Ferdinand?


----------



## hatterson

AB13 said:


> No Vidic or Ferdinand?




Ferdinand for sure, I'm less on Vidic for HoF due to a more limited number of games.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Na they're retired... and Van der Sar deserves to be there. Doesnt matter what order.



Van der Sar will 100% be in there. He's argbuably United's best ever keeper, but I'm sure Schmeichel goes in before him.


----------



## Chimaera

Divock Origi.


----------



## Aladyyn

hatterson said:


> Assuming it's PL era only, here are the options United:
> 
> Cole
> Schmeichel
> Beckham
> Scholes
> Giggs
> Keane
> 
> Rooney obviously once he retires.
> 
> I'd say Ronaldo too simply for how good he was during the shortish time he was in the PL.



Might be a homer take but I'll throw Carrick into the mix.


----------



## hatterson

Aladyyn said:


> Might be a homer take but I'll throw Carrick into the mix.




He's borderline for me. Definitely a top United player of the PL era, but I'm not sure he was enough for a PL HoF.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Aladyyn said:


> Might be a homer take but I'll throw Carrick into the mix.



I don't think Carrick will whether that's right or wrong. His play style isn't really accepted by traditional English football and he was always criminally overlooked throughout his career.

Vidic and Ferdinand should get in as well.


----------



## Aladyyn

The Abusement Park said:


> I don't think Carrick will whether that's right or wrong. His play style isn't really accepted by traditional English football and he was always criminally overlooked throughout his career.
> 
> Vidic and Ferdinand should get in as well.



We'll see, his uniqueness might aid him instead.


----------



## The Abusement Park

My list off the top of my head would be something like:
Schmeichel
VdS
Rooney(when available)
Giggs
Scholes
Beckham
Ronaldo
Cole
Keane
Vidic 
Ferdinand
Drogba
Terry
Lampard
Cech
Bergkamp
Henry
Campbell(?)
Viera
Shearer
Aguero
Silva
Kompany(when available)

Something like this. I'm sure I missed some but.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Aladyyn said:


> We'll see, his uniqueness might aid him instead.



I would hope so. It's such a shame England always tried to fit all of Scholes, Lampard, and Gerrard into the midfield when Carrick would have brought some balance the midfield really needed.


----------



## AB13

I would probably have

Schmeichel
Cech
Seaman
Neville
Ferdinand
Terry
Adams
Campbell
Cole
Vieira
Keane
Scholes
Beckham
Giggs
Gerrard
Lampard
Pires
Shearer
Ljungberg
Henry
Bergkamp
Cole
Wright
Drogba

Probably bring in Rooney, Fàbregas, Ronaldo, Agüero and Kompany when made avaliable. Maybe Özil


----------



## Havre

Hopefully they won't go NHL with it - and keep it a proper HoF.

Love how Ozil almost makes it. Haha. If he scores the winner against Olympiakos I might consider it.


----------



## gary69

This might have some impact on the already existing English HoF:

English Football Hall of Fame - Wikipedia


----------



## Stray Wasp

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> *A football crowd is a free for all, it's the anonymity of a crowd allowing the barbaric essential nature of man to come out*. Something that isn't as well-concealed with those rough guys as it is with introvert college kids who do their boasting and trash talking only on the internet. That's the football we grew up with, that's the football crowd that is a fascinating, electrifying monster. Everything comes with light and shadow, and you can't have one without the other.
> 
> I'd take a crowd with a few idiots yelling racist abuse that still maintains the essential freedom to be an anti-authoritarian community outside of a PR-friendly framework set by advertisers and officials over a 'clean' crowd of people hoping they get to be on the kiss cam and who clap when the big scoreboard tells them to clap.




As regards the bolded, an alternative interpretation might be, 'It's the sense that a crowd gives of being free from the fear of consequences that grants cowards a sense of possessing a courage they lack in every other sphere of their life'. It's nearer to being the _opposite_ of an anti-authoritarian impulse, having historically caused many a human being to become putty in some dubious leader figure's hands. The outcome tends to be a short period of swaggering in the public eye, followed by a cringing retreat at the first hint of being held accountable by some more powerful authority.

I think the 'anti-authoritarian' argument itself approaches the spirit of dismally self-conscious, performative self-aggrandisement that I'd say is one of the causes of the recent upsurge in overt racism in English society. It's arguably also an unpleasant offshoot of what might be described as the passion industry. Strange to relate that in the good old days when I were a lad, the only time I ever heard the word 'passion' was in the context of E.M. Forster adaptations, and always emerging from the mouth of effete sounding RADA types playing characters that were middle-class southerners. Then, one fateful day, 'passion' was kidnapped by marketing people - now you see adverts stating things like, 'We're passionate about HR business solutions', or 'we're passionate about kitchens'. 'Passion' is a word that really deserves a long, recuperative holiday at a quiet seaside resort.

Alas, nowhere did 'passion' as a buzzword become more firmly entrenched than football, and these days you can't go five minutes without encountering some breast-beating nincompoop who'd rather be burned at the stake than have anyone doubt how incredibly important a bunch of complete strangers chasing a ball around some grass, whilst another group of complete strangers attempts to interfere with their progress, is to them. And the longer a camera points at them, or the longer a microphone rests before their mouths, or the longer anyone pays them attention, the more overwhelming becomes their urge to make utter arses of themselves.

I've known plenty football fans capable of being exercised to the point of derangement by the game who nevertheless wouldn't dole out racist abuse or announce to all and sundry about how _passionate_ they felt concerning their club. And I wouldn't tell any of them they were soft within punching distance. I suppose it depends on the company you keep.


----------



## Stray Wasp

gary69 said:


> This might have some impact on the already existing English HoF:
> 
> English Football Hall of Fame - Wikipedia




I hope so - the pre-existing Hall of Fame pushes the disgusting lie that football existed before 1992.


----------



## Stray Wasp

If we take the Premier League at its own evaluation, surely anyone who's played a single minute in the bestest competition in the history of football deserves to be commemorated.

Phil King, Matt Oakley, Fabian Wilnis, Liam Lawrence and the rest - every single one of them deserves a plinth.


----------



## hatterson

gary69 said:


> This might have some impact on the already existing English HoF:
> 
> English Football Hall of Fame - Wikipedia




Would be interesting to filter the list to exclude those who played a significant chunk of their career before the PL existed.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Stray Wasp said:


> I've known plenty football fans capable of being exercised to the point of derangement by the game who nevertheless wouldn't dole out racist abuse or announce to all and sundry about how _passionate_ they felt concerning their club. And I wouldn't tell any of them they were soft within punching distance. I suppose it depends on the company you keep.




That's not the point. Obviously the vast majority of fans aren't going to yell racist abuse. It's the fact that this obsession with the subject is used to come up with all kinds of extreme, extravagant punishments and restrictions on fans. It's just an excuse. Racist abuse is wrong, maybe even 'evil', sure, but then plenty of other stuff is 'evil' (or you'll find enough people on Twitter who say it is) so why stop there? One could create a whole list of things that when uttered by a person in the crowd they need to stop play and empty the stadium. A football crowd following a 'speech code' with an ever expandable list of restrictions is no longer a football crowd, it's a dead crowd. 

While I am not 100% on board with the support style of Ultras, I do agree whole-heartedly with the freedom of supporters to express themselves in their space . I don't care if the tifo is offensive or the chant. I've certainly seen and heard many of them that were directly offensive to me, and yet I'd never ever want them banned under some pretense of a stadium being a safe space.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon




----------



## S E P H

I am a big believer in freedom of speech and expression, but just because you have that freedom to be a jerk doesn't mean you should be a jerk. I put a lot of the blame on the parents and past generations lack of teaching their kids thus leading to more indecency compared to the last generation. It's simply just going to get worse and not better, so don't have the hope that #Kickoutracism will do anything because it won't. When you see a black man on a rival pitch, it's easier to target his skin colour than go after him as a man. That's because everyone out there is a man and to differentiate someone from yourself, observational skills are needed and the biggest observation between a black man and white man is pigment of melanin. I get what TheMoreYouKnow is trying to get at, even though I suggest that he's using the wrong analogies to express his opinion.


----------



## Chimaera

When your speech impacts the safety or wellbeing of others, you don’t have that right in an organized society. We give up certain rights, including some of our free speech in order for the general well being of everyone. It’s why I can’t yell fire in a crowded theater because I want to do it for the lolz. It’s why I couldn’t make death threats about a boss or co worker. Yes theoretically, I could do those things, but they’re not legal in civilized society and as such should be punished. Similarly, saying racist things at people is illegal and wrong, and should be punished to the full extent of the law. England has hate speech statutes and people doing it should be punished. 

it’s not a difficult concept. the additional and equivalency argument of “oh well if you don’t let this, then everything will be illegal” is just lazy. While I agree many people are of below average intelligence, it is still more than possible that people can understand nuance. In life, most things are situational. If you want to say whatever awful racist stuff in your own home, to your dog, cat, parakeet or whatever poor creatures could put up with you, that’s your right. But the second you say it in a public place where the established rules prevent it, you deserve the full punishment. I don’t think that’s a very hard concept. I lack faith in most people, but I believe most can have the logic to understand that some things are situational.


----------



## Havre

21:00 CET cannot come quickly enough.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

They said they're starting with 2 inductees, yeah? 

It'll be Shearer and Giggs. I'm fairly sure of this.


----------



## Havre

Wouldn't be a bad place to start. Actually would be quite odd not to pick those two. Top scorer alongside the player with the most games. Most games in itself isn't enough of course, but one can easily argue that Giggs overall due to the combination of longevity and quality is the "best" PL player ever (on pure quality not, but as a combination - and he was quite sensational in terms of quality as well).


----------



## bleedblue1223

S E P H said:


> I am a big believer in freedom of speech and expression, but just because you have that freedom to be a jerk doesn't mean you should be a jerk. I put a lot of the blame on the parents and past generations lack of teaching their kids thus leading to more indecency compared to the last generation. It's simply just going to get worse and not better, so don't have the hope that #Kickoutracism will do anything because it won't. When you see a black man on a rival pitch, it's easier to target his skin colour than go after him as a man. That's because everyone out there is a man and to differentiate someone from yourself, observational skills are needed and the biggest observation between a black man and white man is pigment of melanin. I get what TheMoreYouKnow is trying to get at, even though I suggest that he's using the wrong analogies to express his opinion.



You think things are getting progressively worse as time goes on? It's quite the opposite, we just happen to see and hear everything now.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Chimaera said:


> Similarly, saying racist things at people is illegal and wrong, and should be punished to the full extent of the law. England has hate speech statutes and people doing it should be punished.



While wrong, it's not illegal depending on where you are. I take the side of the ACLU. Defend all speech, and defeat bad speech with good speech as a way to change the minds that hold those beliefs. That's how a society improves.


----------



## Chimaera

bleedblue1223 said:


> While wrong, it's not illegal depending on where you are. I take the side of the ACLU. Defend all speech, and defeat bad speech with good speech as a way to change the minds that hold those beliefs. That's how a society improves.




I mean, yeah, it's not illegal everywhere. But it is in England, where hate speech is a crime. 

In the US, relatively atypical from most Western democratic countries, it is somewhat protected to say hate speech. That said, there's slander, libel and harassment laws which would cause some adjudication in the courts or privately. Additionally, in a public setting, there are norms and rules that can prevent the actions. A person can't just say racist things at a hockey game for example, because they can revoke his attendance and ability to attend future games. 

I don't think we're completely arguing against different things. I agree that society should respond with good speech, however, it's the supporters and the clubs that need to take the lead in this. Speak out directly against people doing this, and ban them from the matches.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Lampard has said that Hudson-Odoi still isn't fit for the weekend, Pulisic injury is worse than originally thought and that he had the same injury as a player and described it as the worst of his career, Loftus-Cheek will be returning.


----------



## YNWA14

bleedblue1223 said:


> While wrong, it's not illegal depending on where you are. I take the side of the ACLU. Defend all speech, and defeat bad speech with good speech as a way to change the minds that hold those beliefs. That's how a society improves.



It also improves by setting its own standards for meaning and perception. I’m with Barnes in the camp that thinks on top of fighting blatant racism we need to change the way certain things are perceived. It shouldn’t be offensive to compare someone to a caricature of a black person, etc. because realistically there shouldn’t be anything offensive about black skin and big lips (referring specifically to the Mendy/Silva case as an example). As a culture we should be embracing these things as we do a lot of others.

Telling other people something is bad or trying to stop them from doing something is a deterrent that only goes so far. If you can shift the actual perception and meaning behind something it works a lot better (though as with anything that doesn’t apply to every case or person).

I’m a big believer in self empowerment though.


----------



## bleedblue1223

YNWA14 said:


> It also improves by setting its own standards for meaning and perception. I’m with Barnes in the camp that thinks on top of fighting blatant racism we need to change the way certain things are perceived. It shouldn’t be offensive to compare someone to a caricature of a black person, etc. because realistically there shouldn’t be anything offensive about black skin and big lips (referring specifically to the Mendy/Silva case as an example). As a culture we should be embracing these things as we do a lot of others.
> 
> Telling other people something is bad or trying to stop them from doing something is a deterrent that only goes so far. If you can shift the actual perception and meaning behind something it works a lot better (though as with anything that doesn’t apply to every case or person).
> 
> I’m a big believer in self empowerment though.



This and also what someone like Daryl Davis does. That guy does incredible work, very inspirational.


----------



## maclean

Gus, Christian Pulisic is playing Fortnite with Ninja right now lol


----------



## Elliman

A PL hall of fame? This is a fun game should kill my next 10 minutes... lets see....


Now.... obviously you can’t have a first year class with 100 players so I’d do best of the best inaugural class of 2020....

Class of 2020
Ryan Giggs
Thierry Henry
Alex Ferguson
Howard Webb

Class of 2021
Alan Shearer
Frank Lampard
Wenger

Class of 2022
Peter Schmeichel - Utd
Eric Cantona - Utd
Tony Adams - Arsenal
Roy Keane - Utd
Terry - Chelsea
Patrick Vieira - Arsenal
Stevie G - Liverpool
Ashley Cole - Arse/Chelsea
Gianfranco Zola - Chelsea
Drogba - Chelsea
Cech - Chelsea
Rooney - Utd
Bergkamp - Arsenal
Campbell - Spurs/Arse
Barry - Everton/City
Ronaldo - Utd
Scholes - Utd
Ferdinand - Utd


----------



## hatterson

I think Shearer has to be in the first class. After that it’s between Giggs and Henry if you’re gonna limit it to a 2 person class, both of it’s a 3 person.

Managerially it’s Sir Alex followed by Wenger. Off the top of my head none of the other title winning managers spent enough time in the PL to deserve a half of fame spot yet, regardless of how good they were, so after that you’re at guys like Redknapp or Moyes and I’m not sure if I’m up for them being in the hall of fame or not.


----------



## Havre

Managers is a bit more tricky if you are only going to include retires ones. Quite a few that should go in before Redknapp and Moyes - even if there will be quite a drop after Wenger in any case. Obviously Mourinho and Benitez will be in at some point (I say obviously without having read the requirements).

Henry is probably the best PL player ever so it is a bit strange not to take him first, but Shearer scored more goals and Giggs had a far longer career so...


----------



## Chimaera

You're also going to get a bit of a push to put someone from United. I realize that's a bit obtuse, but they did win a boat load of trophies, and it's kinda fitting to put the most lauded player in.


----------



## Havre

They will probably go full VAR on this anyway. Steve Bruce and Robert Lee.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Liverpool loses against Watford. What a misfortune.


----------



## hatterson

Havre said:


> Managers is a bit more tricky if you are only going to include retires ones. Quite a few that should go in before Redknapp and Moyes - even if there will be quite a drop after Wenger in any case. Obviously Mourinho and Benitez will be in at some point (I say obviously without having read the requirements).
> 
> Henry is probably the best PL player ever so it is a bit strange not to take him first, but Shearer scored more goals and Giggs had a far longer career so...




Jose makes sense, won a bunch of hardware, multiple top teams, IIRC top 5 in games and wins.

I'd put Benitez in the same category as Redknapp and Moyes in terms of the PL. Accumulated a decent amount of games and wins (although less than the other two) but didn't have much success in the PL. Granted if you include continental success that should put him over the edge.

Shearer over Henry is simply due to the difference in length of career in the PL. Shearer played almost double the amount of time as Henry did. Similar to Giggs who doesn't really have an argument for being a elite peak player, but was consistently very good for 2 decades and obviously has a truckload of team hardware.


----------



## Savant

Vancouver Canucks said:


> Liverpool loses against Watford. What a misfortune.



For the media. Yes. 

This is no worse than any other loss to me. There are dozens of other LFC losses that struck me more than this. Only the Arsenal fans will have a lasting memory of that game.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Savant said:


> For the media. Yes.
> 
> This is no worse than any other loss to me. There are dozens of other LFC losses that struck me more than this. Only the Arsenal fans will have a lasting memory of that game.




I just seriously wanted Liverpool to finish the season with no losses. My dream didn't come true.


----------



## Savant

Vancouver Canucks said:


> I just seriously wanted Liverpool to finish the season with no losses. My dream didn't come true.



Would have been nice but not high on the priority list


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Savant said:


> Would have been nice but not high on the priority list




For you, at least.


----------



## Stray Wasp

hatterson said:


> Shearer over Henry is simply due to the difference in length of career in the PL. Shearer played almost double the amount of time as Henry did. Similar to Giggs who doesn't really have an argument for being a elite peak player, but was consistently very good for 2 decades and obviously has a truckload of team hardware.




Shearer was one of the best strikers in European football from 93 to 97, and was considered pretty much the consensus best European striker (as opposed to 'striker playing in Europe') of 96-97. Aged 26 at the end of that season, he then suffered a severe injury (he simultaneously tore his ankle ligaments and broke a leg - his favoured shooting foot, his right, was left hanging loose and facing the opposite way that it should have been). It forced him utterly to reinvent his game at what might otherwise have been his peak. 

Alas, he tends to be remembered for his Newcastle seasons after that injury, left less mobile and with reduced pace, rather than in his Blackburn pomp, when he was nigh-on unplayable. Still, between 1999 and 2006 he managed a further three 20 goal seasons. During that period only Van Nistelrooy and Henry, six and seven years younger respectively, healthier and blessed with far superior supporting casts, did better. 

By all means rate Henry over Shearer, but I'd dispute the claim that there's a vast gap between their peak EPL seasons - and Shearer's longevity deserves immense respect. The hard miles he put in up until just short of 36 saddled with such as Boumsong, Bowyer and Bramble for teammates cuts a stark contrast to Henry swanning off to the MLS aged 32 for a spot of flat-track bullying.

Shearer was indisputably the best player on a title winning team. I'm unsure there's any season where you can say that of Giggs. Henry was the star of the 03-04 Invincibles, but was he the clear best player on Arsenal 01-02? I'm not so sure. 

And Henry carries the slight indignity of being part of the Arsenal team of 2002-3 that should have won the league, but sloppily failed to - a result that I'd maintain that had dismal consequences for the Gunners because it missed the chance to make Alex Ferguson yesterday's man.


----------



## hatterson

Stray Wasp said:


> Shearer was one of the best strikers in European football from 93 to 97, and was considered pretty much the consensus best European striker (as opposed to 'striker playing in Europe') of 96-97. Aged 26 at the end of that season, he then suffered a severe injury (he simultaneously tore his ankle ligaments and broke a leg - his favoured shooting foot, his right, was left hanging loose and facing the opposite way that it should have been). It forced him utterly to reinvent his game at what might otherwise have been his peak.
> 
> Alas, he tends to be remembered for his Newcastle seasons after that injury, left less mobile and with reduced pace, rather than in his Blackburn pomp, when he was nigh-on unplayable. Still, between 1999 and 2006 he managed a further three 20 goal seasons. During that period only Van Nistelrooy and Henry, six and seven years younger respectively, healthier and blessed with far superior supporting casts, did better.
> 
> By all means rate Henry over Shearer, but I'd dispute the claim that there's a vast gap between their peak EPL seasons - and Shearer's longevity deserves immense respect. The hard miles he put in up until just short of 36 saddled with such as Boumsong, Bowyer and Bramble for teammates cuts a stark contrast to Henry swanning off to the MLS aged 32 for a spot of flat-track bullying.
> 
> Shearer was indisputably the best player on a title winning team. I'm unsure there's any season where you can say that of Giggs. Henry was the star of the 03-04 Invincibles, but was he the clear best player on Arsenal 01-02? I'm not so sure.
> 
> And Henry carries the slight indignity of being part of the Arsenal team of 2002-3 that should have won the league, but sloppily failed to - a result that I'd maintain that had dismal consequences for the Gunners because it missed the chance to make Alex Ferguson yesterday's man.




Just to be clear my "doesn't really have an argument for being an elite peak player" was supposed to be applied only to Giggs, not to shearer.

Shearer is, to me, the top of the list due to both peak performance and longevity. You can certainly debate peaks for him vs Henry (queue certain posters on here going nuts)

Then it's Henry vs. Giggs for #2 and that's where you get the debate between a shorter peak that's unquestionably better (again Giggs vs. Henry, not including Shearer) vs. a career that was at a top but not world class level for nearly 3 times as long.


----------



## robertmac43

Brighton's problems explained

*Sighs*


----------



## Stray Wasp

hatterson said:


> Just to be clear my "doesn't really have an argument for being an elite peak player" was supposed to be applied only to Giggs, not to shearer.
> 
> Shearer is, to me, the top of the list due to both peak performance and longevity. You can certainly debate peaks for him vs Henry (queue certain posters on here going nuts)
> 
> Then it's Henry vs. Giggs for #2 and that's where you get the debate between a shorter peak that's unquestionably better (again Giggs vs. Henry, not including Shearer) vs. a career that was at a top but not world class level for nearly 3 times as long.




I stand corrected!


----------



## YNWA14

For AB13



This guy really doesn’t like Henry.


----------



## robertmac43

Makes me laugh and cry at the same time...


----------



## bleedblue1223

He was banned from matches for 3 years. I do find it funny though that some on twitter were wanting prison time.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

His defense should've been bringing passion to the atmosphere. I know a few people on here who arent going to like this. LOL


----------



## bleedblue1223

I thought that was actually a decent defense, even if that guy thinks it's remarkable. It's believable, admit you were an a-hole, just not a racist a-hole lol.


----------



## Aladyyn

YNWA14 said:


> For AB13
> 
> 
> 
> This guy really doesn’t like Henry.




Honestly that is pretty damning lol


----------



## bleedblue1223

Wait, Henry really never scored at Stamford Bridge once Abramovich took over?

And his 1 goal at Old Trafford was in a 6-1 loss.


----------



## AB13

YNWA14 said:


> For AB13
> 
> 
> 
> This guy really doesn’t like Henry.





I know you just want me to take the bait and go on a massive rant but I have to set the record straight whenever someone speaks such trash about my clubs legends. Some stats tell a very different story, most underrated of all time in my extremely biased opinion.

Premier League all time single season assist leader with 20

Most Premier League golden boots: 5

Fourth all time highest PL goalscorer in far less games than everyone above him

The second highest goals per minute ratio in EPL history along with his incredible assist numbers

Only player to score 20+ goals in 5 successive Premier League seasons ( Drogba, the man he dares to compare Henry to, only scored more than 12 goals twice despite playing more seasons than the GOAT of English football).

44 goal contributions in the Premier League in 2002-03, the most by a player in a Premier League season ever, with an incredible 24 goals and 20 assists, of every player to hit over 15 assists in a PL season only Lampard hit as much as 10 goals ( 2004-05).

France all time record goalscorer

Winner of the treble at Barca, winner of two Premier Leagues at Arsenal, an invincible season, World Cup winner at 20 in 1998 while being the top scorer for France at the tournament, winner of the Euros in 2000 while being the top scorer for France at the tournament once again.

Henry was the ultimate complete forward, among the best in the world looking at pace, technique, skill, physique, off the ball movement, finishing, vision and passing. He is the most technically gifted player I have ever seen in the Premier League and I mostly remember an older Henry, while being a lethal finisher. His big game performances were often clutch and important, like his flick up for a volley in a possible title decider against United, his hattrick and solo goal against Liverpool, his long ranger against United in 03-04, his game winning world cup QF goal against Brazil, and his magestic performance against Inter at the San Siro to get the us through in the CL.

Henry is right up there in the discussion for best striker in football history, although I would probably give it to Pele or fat Ronaldo ( although he doesn't come close to the longevity of Henry).


----------



## bleedblue1223

Yeah, but not goals at Stamford Bridge during Abramovich era.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

main thing i took from that thread was being reminded that salomon kalou started in the f***ing ucl final for us (a fact i forget extremely extremely often)


----------



## Halladay

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> main thing i took from that thread was being reminded that salomon kalou started in the f***ing ucl final for us (a fact i forget extremely extremely often)



So did Ryan Bertand. Wow.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Yeah, that team had no business winning. The semi-finals were incredible too with that Ramires chip and Torres putting the final nail in the coffin. Still watch those highlights with Gary Neville going crazy.

Drogba's header in the Final is still one of the best header's that I've ever seen. Perfect power and placement.


----------



## bleedblue1223

I will say the 2012 team winning is karma for that 08/09 club being screwed. The fact that beating Barca in the semis made it even sweeter.


----------



## YNWA14

Saw this somewhere:

Since 2018 (I think)

*Liverpool with Jordan Henderson:*
Games: 34
Wins: 28
Losses: 2
AGF: 2.1
AGA: 0.7
Win %: 82.4

*Liverpool without Jordan Henderson*
Games: 12
Wins: 7
Losses: 3
AGF: 1.9
AGA: 1.8
Win %: 58.3

Heartbeat.


----------



## Cassano




----------



## les Habs

bleedblue1223 said:


> I will say the 2012 team winning is karma for that 08/09 club being screwed. The fact that beating Barca in the semis made it even sweeter.




The 08/09 side wasn’t screwed. Actually watch both legs and learn the rules.


----------



## Havre

Cassano said:


>





About time. #$%%"%# embarrassing watching him. And I wonder what his teammates are thinking. This wasn´t even his worst 45 mins.

Generally speaking I don´t think these kind of things should be said in public, but there is a limit to how a player can act.

I will "happily" admit I was wrong about N´Dombele. I watched him playing high profile games in the CL and he looked great, but quite clear from reports coming out of France that he has struggled with his attitude for a long long time.

I guess there is a small chance that he will pick himself up and actually put in some work for next season (which Mourinho also says), but I don´t believe it. Very rare to see players change their "personality" like that. I was tricked, but the Spurs scouts really should have picked up on this before making N´Dombele our most expensive signing ever.

If N´Dombele had been 50% of Lo Celso Spurs would have been top 4 by now. Pochettino might even still have had a job.


----------



## bleedblue1223

les Habs said:


> The 08/09 side wasn’t screwed. Actually watch both legs and learn the rules.



The ref admitted he botched the match.


----------



## Blender




----------



## les Habs

bleedblue1223 said:


> The ref admitted he botched the match.




He botched the match for both sides not to mention the first leg. Chelsea were only done by themselves not being better. Whatever gets you through the night though.


----------



## Jussi

For those wanting to replace Ole:



> Carlo Ancelotti:
> It is a team that has an idea and that is a manager’s job. I think he is doing really well for what I see today and the fact we competed with them is important for us. It gives us more confidence for the next game.






> Pep Guardiola:
> Always I believe that the managers and the clubs need time to implant, to build something the manager and the club believe. Unfortunately the results sometimes (lead to) the decision to break that process but what I feel is that people believe in Ole and I think he is doing a really good job. He arrived with an incredible impact in terms of results. After (came a) drop a little bit but they were stable. Now the results are getting back, they are scoring a lot of goals.


----------



## bleedblue1223

les Habs said:


> He botched the match for both sides not to mention the first leg. Chelsea were only done by themselves not being better. Whatever gets you through the night though.



Ovrebo: My errors cost Chelsea in 2009 semi

Whatever helps you sleep through the night. Anything that includes Barca, you must defend to the end. The ref had a bad game and that happens, he even admitted it was a bad game by him, so I don't see the point in acting like it wasn't.


----------



## les Habs

bleedblue1223 said:


> Ovrebo: My errors cost Chelsea in 2009 semi
> 
> Whatever helps you sleep through the night. Anything that includes Barca, you must defend to the end. The ref had a bad game and that happens, he even admitted it was a bad game by him, so I don't see the point in acting like it wasn't.




Try reading what I said, which was he botched the match for both sides.


----------



## bleedblue1223

les Habs said:


> Try reading what I said, which was he botched the match for both sides.



And yet he said his performance cost Chelsea, not that his performance was equally bad for both sides.


----------



## les Habs

bleedblue1223 said:


> And yet he said his performance cost Chelsea, not that his performance was equally bad for both sides.




I don't care what he said. I'm not basing anything on what he said but rather what I saw in multiple viewings of the match and the tie as a whole. Again, Chelsea weren't hard done by, but whatever helps your reconcile the tie.


----------



## SJSharks72

bleedblue1223 said:


> And yet he said his performance cost Chelsea, not that his performance was equally bad for both sides.



Honestly why does it matter?


----------



## bleedblue1223

SJSharks39 said:


> Honestly why does it matter?



It doesn't, I just find the replies amusing.


----------



## SJSharks72

bleedblue1223 said:


> It doesn't, I just find the replies amusing.



Also wanted to point out too I wasn’t only calling you out, just didn’t want to multi-quote and yours was the latest when I started typing. It was 10 years ago though and if a ref couldn’t call the game right the first time, who knows if he’s going to be able to see his mistakes the second time?


----------



## Havre

bleedblue1223 said:


> Ovrebo: My errors cost Chelsea in 2009 semi
> 
> Whatever helps you sleep through the night. Anything that includes Barca, you must defend to the end. The ref had a bad game and that happens, he even admitted it was a bad game by him, so I don't see the point in acting like it wasn't.




Where does he admit to anything? I haven't seen every interview he has given since of course, but I have yet to see him admitting to make a mistake. He once said in Norwegian that his decisions might have cost Chelsea the tie, but he just as well could have said the opposite if he had given one of those and Barcelona had gone out due to that decision. Even if he is an arrogant "%%"% he is also quite clever so a good way of making Chelseafans believe he takes responsibility without actually doing it.

I passionately hate Øvrebø (within the context of football). He is funnily enough trained as a psychologist, but rarely have I ever seen a ref with so little understanding of human behaviour).

I have discussed that game with many Chelseafans in real life and what I find interesting is how everyone agree on Øvrebø "cheating" them, but none of them can agree on which situations where poorly handled - just the accumulated effect. A ref cannot ref a game based on accumulated effects.

1. Malouda: Could have been a penalty, but obviously not a stonewall one. Personally I think Malouda is looking for it and even if it is borderline I wouldn't have given it myself.
2. Drogba: Should have been a penalty, but I remember seeing it live thinking Drogba stumbles.
3. Pique: Would have been a handball today, but not a given in 2009. Personally no handball for me.
4. Second handball: How can the ref in real time see if that hits his side or his arm? With VAR it is a penalty, but again those were not as easily given in 2009 as in 2020.

I can perfectly well see why some might disagree with that assessment, but I have yet to meet a Chelseafan in real life that after calming down can't see that a) no penalty was obvious in real time b) the accumulated effect makes it difficult for a fan emotionally, but a ref cannot ref a game based on that. Øvrebø was damned either way in that game. Probably karma.

Chelsea were unlucky not to get any of those decisions, but completely overblown how poorly the ref did. Even with VAR decisions are gotten wrong that are much worse than any of those 4.


----------



## Savant

Jussi said:


> For those wanting to replace Ole:



Good. I hope he stays.


----------



## Chimaera

Yeah, I'm also not sure those statements really mean much. 

Neither of those guys are going to come out and say Ole is awful, he has no plot and he should be whacked tomorrow.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Chimaera said:


> Yeah, I'm also not sure those statements really mean much.
> 
> Neither of those guys are going to come out and say Ole is awful, he has no plot and he should be whacked tomorrow.



Tactically he’s pretty useless outside of countering good teams, but I do think he has been really good for off the pitch reasons. He’s brought in a good transfer policy and is very good at managing our academy players and how much they should be playing. I don’t think he’s a great manager or will be the guy to take us to the top, but I do think he’s a good guy to have here short term and build the foundation for the next manager.


----------



## Cassano

les Habs said:


> I don't care what he said. I'm not basing anything on what he said but rather what I saw in multiple viewings of the match and the tie as a whole. Again, Chelsea weren't hard done by, but whatever helps your reconcile the tie.





Chelsea got away with plenty of shit in that match. They also acted like clowns, which is what everyone remembers...

Look at that red card call on Abidal, the missed pen on Henry, missed offside on Eto'o, missed 2nd yellow on Ballack, handball in the box by Ballack, Drogba kick to Pique's nuts, etc.

In conclusion, the referee was bad for both teams.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Cassano said:


> Chelsea got away with plenty of shit in that match. They also acted like clowns, which is what everyone remembers...
> 
> Look at that red card call on Abidal, the missed pen on Henry, missed offside on Eto'o, missed 2nd yellow on Ballack, handball in the box by Ballack, Drogba kick to Pique's nuts, etc.
> 
> In conclusion, the referee was bad for both teams.




I gave up on fighting that fight. It's pretty obvious what happened but everyone wants to cry Uefalona.


----------



## Jack Straw




----------



## robertmac43

Just what Arsenal needed...


----------



## Aladyyn

The Abusement Park said:


> Tactically he’s pretty useless outside of countering good teams, but I do think he has been really good for off the pitch reasons. He’s brought in a good transfer policy and is very good at managing our academy players and how much they should be playing. I don’t think he’s a great manager or will be the guy to take us to the top, but I do think he’s a good guy to have here short term and build the foundation for the next manager.



This Ole tactics meme has gone way too far


----------



## Jussi

Aladyyn said:


> This Ole tactics meme has gone way too far




Yup. The fact he just outcoached Pep on Sunday is evidence he's not tactically inept.


----------



## Aladyyn

Jussi said:


> Yup. The fact he just outcoached Pep on Sunday is evidence he's not tactically inept.



Only the second manager to beat Pep 3 times in a season. But hE OnLy CoUnTeRs AnD gOt ReLeGaTeD wItH CaRdIfF...


----------



## The Abusement Park

Aladyyn said:


> This Ole tactics meme has gone way too far



He’s good against good teams because he sets up the team to counter. But this is a much different team against teams who sit back and defend. He still sucks against teams that we should beat consistently.


----------



## Aladyyn

The Abusement Park said:


> He’s good against good teams because he sets up the team to counter. But this is a much different team against teams who sit back and defend. He still sucks against teams that we should beat consistently.



We haven't struggled against those teams since Bruno came in...


----------



## Jussi

Aladyyn said:


> We haven't struggled against those teams since Bruno came in...




People really overvalue tactics/system without taking into account the skill level of available players. Simply put, a midfield with Bruno and or Pogba, with McTominay (who's proven his value during his injury absence) is more capable of beating those defenses than one without. Or let me put it this way, you think Finland would have qualified for Euro 2020 without Pukki?


----------



## Aladyyn

Jussi said:


> People really overvalue tactics/system without taking into account the skill level of available players. Simply put, a midfield with Bruno and or Pogba, with McTominay (who's proven his value during his injury absence) is more capable of beating those defenses than one without. Or let me put it this way, you think Finland would have qualified for Euro 2020 without Pukki?



There's a reason why teams play a low block when at a large talent disadvantage - it works. You need world class attacking players to consistently break it down, can't do it by tactics alone. We just saw how toothless City can look without De Bruyne...


----------



## Jussi

Aladyyn said:


> There's a reason why teams play a low block when at a large talent disadvantage - it works. You need world class attacking players to consistently break it down, can't do it by tactics alone. We just saw how toothless City can look without De Bruyne...




And in the past United had Scholes and Giggs to help in that area.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Aston Villa might terminate Drinkwater's loan after headbutting a teammate in practice. That transfer might've been a complete waste, but it has provided a few entertaining articles, so at least there's that.


----------



## Chimaera

I don't think there's anyone that should be thinking playing defensively and bunkering, while giving up 11 corners and 72% possession showed a tactical acumen worthy of any praise.

I think any clown from RedCafe could have set the team up to do that.


----------



## Jussi

bleedblue1223 said:


> Aston Villa might terminate Drinkwater's loan *after headbutting a teammate in practice*. That transfer might've been a complete waste, but it has provided a few entertaining articles, so at least there's that.




When staying true to your lad roots goes wrong...


----------



## Jussi

Chimaera said:


> I don't think there's anyone that should be thinking playing defensively and bunkering, *while giving up 11 corners and 72% possession* showed a tactical acumen worthy of any praise.
> 
> I think any clown from RedCafe could have set the team up to do that.




Are you ignoring shot statistics on purpose? Because United kept City at a comfortable distance from scoring chances.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Aladyyn said:


> We haven't struggled against those teams since Bruno came in...



Watford is the only bad team we’ve played since he joined, unless you consider Everton a bad team. So not a very big sample size there.


----------



## Aladyyn

The Abusement Park said:


> Watford is the only bad team we’ve played since he joined, unless you consider Everton a bad team. So not a very big sample size there.



We played Derby in the FA Cup too.


----------



## Aladyyn

Chimaera said:


> I don't think there's anyone that should be thinking playing defensively and bunkering, while giving up 11 corners and 72% possession showed a tactical acumen worthy of any praise.
> 
> I think any clown from RedCafe could have set the team up to do that.



Did you watch the match?


----------



## hatterson

The Abusement Park said:


> Watford is the only bad team we’ve played since he joined, unless you consider Everton a bad team. So not a very big sample size there.




Wolves aren't bad, but they definitely ceded possession to us and we struggled to create chances against them.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Aladyyn said:


> We played Derby in the FA Cup too.



2 games isn’t a good sample size. I would be fine with being proven wrong here but up until this point he hasn’t shown to be great at setting up the team outside of countering good teams. And eventually teams will adjust to neuter that and we will actually have to create chances that aren’t off the counter.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Jussi said:


> Are you ignoring shot statistics on purpose? Because United kept City at a comfortable distance from scoring chances.




A rare occasion, really, _if_ that's true.


----------



## Chimaera

Jussi said:


> Are you ignoring shot statistics on purpose? Because United kept City at a comfortable distance from scoring chances.



I watched the match. They did have better chances, but they did not control the play. If not for a fluke goal with a bumbled Ederson play, 1-0 is much less flattering. I don't think it was a tactical statement match that Ole has the plot anymore than his matches against Liverpool have been. It wasn't a masterclass for Ole as much as it was a poor showing for City. Sterling was nowhere to be found. Foden out on the right? That was ridiculous. I think they were rightly concerned about the ability of United to counter, but in the final 3rd, they didn't do much. It really emphasizes how reliant City is on KdB.

Sure, United play better against good sides where they're not obligated to have possession. You can't go to Watford or Palace and expect to give them the ball so you can counter. He hasn't shown any ability to break down teams who do the same to him with regularity. He hasn't shown any ability to get his teams to play up to teams they should beat with regularity. *Maybe that's due to players he has*, but I think just as much, it's a lack of a plot.

It's a feather in the cap, but it doesn't mean that he's a tactical master or has even much more than a basic plot. I don't see anyone crying out for Tony Pulis to come be the manager. He would have been able to do as much as Ole did on Sunday.


----------



## hatterson

Vancouver Canucks said:


> A rare occasion, really, _if_ that's true.




City had their best, and really only, chance on a cross from Mahrez down the right and Sterling almost got enough on during a break in the 74th minute.

Outside of that chance City generated absolutely nothing dangerous. They ended with .59 xG according to understat (to United's 1.74) and .43 of that was from the Sterling chance.

So outside of a single chance that occurred when United had broken shape to move forward, City generated a .16 xG for the rest of the game.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

hatterson said:


> City had their best, and really only, chance on a cross from Mahrez down the right and Sterling almost got enough on during a break in the 74th minute.
> 
> Outside of that chance City generated absolutely nothing dangerous. They ended with .59 xG according to understat (to United's 1.74) and .43 of that was from the Sterling chance.
> 
> So outside of a single chance that occurred when United had broken shape to move forward, City generated a .16 xG for the rest of the game.




I'm saying it's just one game. I'm aware of Man City being dominated by the United in that match.


----------



## YNWA14

The Abusement Park said:


> 2 games isn’t a good sample size. I would be fine with being proven wrong here but up until this point he hasn’t shown to be great at setting up the team outside of countering good teams. And eventually teams will adjust to neuter that and we will actually have to create chances that aren’t off the counter.



Pretty much seems like if you can limit United's opportunities to counter attack and not give up acres of space to it they've not looked overly creative. I don't think Ole has done some masterclass by setting up to counter against City and playing well defensively and then being handed two pretty bad goals by Ederson.


----------



## The Abusement Park

YNWA14 said:


> Pretty much seems like if you can limit United's opportunities to counter attack and not give up acres of space to it they've not looked overly creative. I don't think Ole has done some masterclass by setting up to counter against City and playing well defensively and then being handed two pretty bad goals by Ederson.



Exactly why Ole still has plenty to prove as a manager. Setting up against us is easy if you just give us the ball for majority of the game.


----------



## Chimaera

hatterson said:


> City had their best, and really only, chance on a cross from Mahrez down the right and Sterling almost got enough on during a break in the 74th minute.
> 
> Outside of that chance City generated absolutely nothing dangerous. They ended with .59 xG according to understat (to United's 1.74) and .43 of that was from the Sterling chance.
> 
> So outside of a single chance that occurred when United had broken shape to move forward, City generated a .16 xG for the rest of the game.





I mean, by that note, looking at the actual analytics, Martial's chance in the 48th was a .93 (basically a layup that he missed), leaving a much more mediocre .76 to .59 xG if you look at the rest of the match. In fact, many of the created 'chances' were of the .10 and down variety. Those are not great chances, even if they had plenty. They had a number in the box, but it wasn't exactly a tactical masterclass. Sure, City was poor, but it's not like it was a masterclass by either side offensively.


----------



## Aladyyn

Vancouver Canucks said:


> A rare occasion, really, _if_ that's true.



It was the best defensive performance anyone has had against City all season so yeah, you could say that.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Aladyyn said:


> It was the best defensive performance anyone has had against City all season so yeah, you could say that.




Tottenham couldn't have accomplished that. They won 2-0 in their previous match against the City, but they were quite outplayed in certain aspects of it.


----------



## Chimaera

It was a good performance. I don't think that's arguable. 

The trouble for me is it wasn't any sign of massive tactical improvements, or anything completely out of character. Parts looked good. So did the play when Ole was first hired. That's not really a massive change.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Aladyyn said:


> It was the best defensive performance anyone has had against City all season so yeah, you could say that.



But that's not what Ole's biggest shortcoming as a manager is. He still needs to prove that he can make the team useful when we have the ball for more than 30% of the game.


----------



## Aladyyn

The Abusement Park said:


> But that's not what Ole's biggest shortcoming as a manager is. He still needs to prove that he can make the team useful when we have the ball for more than 30% of the game.



Since Bruno came in we've won every "easy" game comfortably.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Ole is the new Cryuff and Bruno is the new Messi. lol


----------



## The Abusement Park

Aladyyn said:


> Since Bruno came in we've won every "easy" game comfortably.



And yet when we couldn't counter attack we were horrible. Eg. Everton and Wolves. We even struggled against freaking Brugge in leg 1.


----------



## Aladyyn

The Abusement Park said:


> And yet when we couldn't counter attack we were horrible. Eg. Everton and Wolves. We even struggled against freaking Brugge in leg 1.



We struggled against Everton because we didn't have James. Wolves are a good side that most teams struggle to break down, hardly an indictment on Ole.


----------



## hatterson

Chimaera said:


> I mean, by that note, looking at the actual analytics, Martial's chance in the 48th was a .93 (basically a layup that he missed), leaving a much more mediocre .76 to .59 xG if you look at the rest of the match. In fact, many of the created 'chances' were of the .10 and down variety. Those are not great chances, even if they had plenty. They had a number in the box, but it wasn't exactly a tactical masterclass. Sure, City was poor, but it's not like it was a masterclass by either side offensively.




No one was really arguing that United generated a ton of chances, just that they shut down City's offense.

The United gameplan was to sit back, keep City from anything dangerous and try to poach one on the counter. They ended up getting a gift from Ederson for their first goal, but also had two other grade A chances where an attacker could have pulled the ball back to Bruno at the penalty spot for an easy goal but took a low percentage shot anyway.

The team did exactly what Ole set it up to do and it was a good gameplan by Ole given what was going to be happening in the game.

I'm still in the boat that Ole is a mediocre manager and doesn't have what it takes tactically to take United to the level they want to be at, but one thing he does well is set a team up to defend and counter.


----------



## Aladyyn

hatterson said:


> The United gameplan was to sit back



Man, someone should have told the players who were pressing in City's penalty box in the 1st half.


----------



## hatterson

Aladyyn said:


> Man, someone should have told the players who were pressing in City's penalty box in the 1st half.




Yes, press high shortly after changes in possession, but once City gets it to midfield collapse further back and eliminate using the middle of the pitch while using the width provided by the back 5 to limit the chances their wide men can create.


----------



## Chimaera

Right. That’s the main and only point I’ve been making. It was a simple plan to setup. But counter attack and sit back doesn’t work across the board if you’re United.


----------



## Havre

bleedblue1223 said:


> Aston Villa might terminate Drinkwater's loan after headbutting a teammate in practice. That transfer might've been a complete waste, but it has provided a few entertaining articles, so at least there's that.




I am amazed he was able to get close enough to a player to actually headbut someone.


----------



## robertmac43

Pilot in Emiliano Sala Crash Lacked Commercial License


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich




----------



## Savant




----------



## Live in the Now

22 team league seems nowhere near big enough if they aren't going to finish the season.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

What does the winter world cup have anything to do with it?


----------



## Savant

Live in the Now said:


> 22 team league seems nowhere near big enough if they aren't going to finish the season.



I think it’s a good number. And I am all for a five team drop zone at the bottom.


----------



## hatterson

Live in the Now said:


> 22 team league seems nowhere near big enough if they aren't going to finish the season.




Promote the two championship sides in the auto spots and skip the playoff for the third.


----------



## ChiTownPhilly

Savant said:


> I think [22]’s a good number. And I am all for a five team drop zone at the bottom.



I'm not in love with the idea- but it seems better than the suggestions heard elsewhere that we should treat the season as if it never happened.

Fluid situation requires a flexible response.

I have no particular love (or animus) against Liverpool, but they have shown, in unmistakable terms, that they are the finest Regular Season performer this campaign. Hats off. Champions.

Next league down, Leeds and West Brom have shown that they're a full tier above the rest there. Welcome up. 3 through 6 finishers- thanks for playing. Maybe next year.

As I scan, the team that looks most likely to receive a dickover are The Blades. Less distance between them and Man U than between Man U and a Champions League slot. Sheffield United appear to be on good form lately... but Manchester United have been on better form. 

Not going to wail a lament for Sheffield- but it would have been nice to see this play out on the pitch.


----------



## hatterson

ChiTownPhilly said:


> I'm not in love with the idea- but it seems better than the suggestions heard elsewhere that we should treat the season as if it never happened.
> 
> Fluid situation requires a flexible response.
> 
> I have no particular love (or animus) against Liverpool, but they have shown, in unmistakable terms, that they are the finest Regular Season performer this campaign. Hats off. Champions.
> 
> Next league down, Leeds and West Brom have shown that they're a full tier above the rest there. Welcome up. 3 through 6 finishers- thanks for playing. Maybe next year.
> 
> As I scan, the team that looks most likely to receive a dickover are The Blades. Less distance between them and Man U than between Man U and a Champions League slot. Sheffield United appear to be on good form lately... but Manchester United have been on better form.
> 
> Not going to wail a lament for Sheffield- but it would have been nice to see this play out on the pitch.




Just a note, United is currently in a CL spot unless City get their ban overturned/delayed.


----------



## hatterson

Savant said:


> I think it’s a good number. And I am all for a five team drop zone at the bottom.




Personally I’d do a 4 team drop zone and only promote 2 next year

Championship winners get promoted, 2-5 do the playoff thing.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Watford FC played their match today on FM......


----------



## KingLB

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> What does the winter world cup have anything to do with it?




Probably meant Euro?


----------



## ChiTownPhilly

hatterson said:


> Just a note, United is currently in a CL spot unless City get their ban overturned/delayed.



Thanks for that!

Would the potential City ban apply to Europa League, as well? I'm guessing yes(?)

If so, that leaves that knot between Wolves and Blades to sort out.


----------



## hatterson

ChiTownPhilly said:


> Thanks for that!
> 
> Would the potential City ban apply to Europa League, as well? I'm guessing yes(?)
> 
> If so, that leaves that knot between Wolves and Blades to sort out.




It's all continental competition. Theoretically if they win the CL this year (if it actually finishes) they'd be banned from the super cup next year as well.


----------



## Cassano

Premier League season should be declared null and void if it's not finished, says West Ham's Karren Brady


----------



## Live in the Now

Cassano said:


> Premier League season should be declared null and void if it's not finished, says West Ham's Karren Brady




Karren Brady is a total idiot and has been for a long time. Apparently she does not know that TV rights deals are not paid out if the season isn't finished. The broadcasters do not have to pay.

West Ham, for what it's worth, would lose out on 102 million pounds. Less if they only pay part, but still a hell of a lot of money. It also takes a majority of clubs to vote in favor of this, which will not happen.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

Live in the Now said:


> Karren Brady is a total idiot and has been for a long time. Apparently she does not know that TV rights deals are not paid out if the season isn't finished. The broadcasters do not have to pay.
> 
> West Ham, for what it's worth, would lose out on 102 million pounds. Less if they only pay part, but still a hell of a lot of money. It also takes a majority of clubs to vote in favor of this, which will not happen.



Now everybody wants West Ham relegated and lose even more money.


----------



## Jussi

Something for United fans to do while the season's on hold:


----------



## Havre

You actually believe there will be no agreement to pay out a certain % of the TV deal if the season is considered void? Good luck for the TV companies explaining that to the public.

Not to mention what happens with the TV money for whatever next season(s) that will be influenced as a consequence of continuing this season? It is quite obvious that everyone are losing on this. It is just a matter of distributing the cost in the best possible way. TV companies will not suddenly sit with all the cash they were supposed to pay the league/clubs. If you truly believe that I suggest you hurry up and buy some stocks.

Aulas just said the same thing by the way (obviously I understand he sets to gain from this the same way Liverpool loses). Clearly it is not nearly as "idiotic" as some seem to consider it to be (if it is the best solution is another discussion).


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Cassano said:


> Premier League season should be declared null and void if it's not finished, says West Ham's Karren Brady




Liverpool truly deserved to win this year's league award. They were really far ahead.


----------



## Live in the Now

Havre said:


> You actually believe there will be no agreement to pay out a certain % of the TV deal if the season is considered void? Good luck for the TV companies explaining that to the public.
> 
> Not to mention what happens with the TV money for whatever next season(s) that will be influenced as a consequence of continuing this season? It is quite obvious that everyone are losing on this. It is just a matter of distributing the cost in the best possible way. TV companies will not suddenly sit with all the cash they were supposed to pay the league/clubs. If you truly believe that I suggest you hurry up and buy some stocks.
> 
> Aulas just said the same thing by the way (obviously I understand he sets to gain from this the same way Liverpool loses). Clearly it is not nearly as "idiotic" as some seem to consider it to be (if it is the best solution is another discussion).




You actually believe that clubs can take that hit to their budget? What about sponsorships? Those are supposed to be worn for 38 games as well. Aulas just wants CL money for another season because his team sucks too much ass in the league to earn it. Again, his comments show that all he and all everyone else in this sport cares about is money. That’s why they had games last week, and they cancelled upcoming games in part because they wouldn’t get revenue from empty stadiums. Why was Anfield full? It speaks for itself and reflects poorly on everyone.

The people who run the game are keenly aware of all this stuff. The next season will be crammed into a specific time frame with games every mid-week, I would bet on that. The people who run this game only care about money. They will not leave one cent out there, you will get 38 games this season and next come hell or high water.

Fwiw I think it would be totally immoral to do that, totally unfair on the players, but they will do that. I think they should just declare the season ended and the standings now are the standings, but the threat of legal action will prevent that. They won’t void the season because teams like Man United want back in the CL and the Glazers would definitely sue to get that money.

You think Real Madrid wouldn’t sue over being in second place, that other teams wouldn’t sue over not winning the CL? These seasons will definitely be played out. Expect the worst, most time efficient way of doing it too.


----------



## Havre

Not sure what kind of hit you are talking about. A) 99% of all businesses will take a direct hit because of this B) every single country will bleed. Football clubs are no different.

That is the context. It will all become a huge negotiation on how to distribute the losses. TV companies have been fully paid and are still getting paid by consumers for a product not delivered - and they are then somehow going to keep all the money they have gotten so far this season? That is just not an option.

Yes. Of course Aulas has his bias, but let us not pretend Liverpool-fans haven´t as well. Getting a bit boring listening to Liverpoolfans not even willing to listen to anything because you feel you deserve the title - of course you deserve it - but that is actually besides the point. That doesn´t work as a general principle. Which is why I have already said fans of clubs not really affected of this probably has the more balanced view on this. Not a new dilemma by the way. Might be a good time for people in the FA to read their Kant. Of course this will in the end not be decided by people that have actually thought and reflected about this (e.g. read Kant) - that is not a new dilemma either.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Havre said:


> Not sure what kind of hit you are talking about. A) *99% of all businesses will take a direct hit* because of this




Please elaborate, oh Oracle. 



> That is the context. It will all become a huge negotiation on how to distribute the losses. TV companies have been fully paid and are still getting paid by consumers for a product not delivered - and they are then somehow going to keep all the money they have gotten so far this season? That is just not an option.




TV ratings and live match sales are mutually exclusive. You don't seem to understand this.



> Getting a bit boring listening to Liverpoolfans not even willing to listen to anything because you feel you deserve the title - of course you deserve it - but that is actually besides the point.




I think you're just jealous your own team didn't get the title, and Liverpool did.


----------



## Cassano

Live in the Now said:


> Karren Brady is a total idiot and has been for a long time. Apparently she does not know that TV rights deals are not paid out if the season isn't finished. The broadcasters do not have to pay.
> 
> West Ham, for what it's worth, would lose out on 102 million pounds. Less if they only pay part, but still a hell of a lot of money. It also takes a majority of clubs to vote in favor of this, which will not happen.



She wrote this in the Sun as well Lol.


----------



## BKIslandersFan

JeffreyLFC said:


> Now everybody wants West Ham relegated and lose even more money.



Who's everyone? Because everyone not a Liverpool fan agrees with her.


----------



## Live in the Now

BKIslandersFan said:


> Who's everyone? Because everyone not a Liverpool fan agrees with her.




Based on? The last report was that Tottenham and West Ham were the only teams that wanted the season voided. Coincidentally those two teams stand to make less money than last season anyway because they both have been much worse. That is also the only way Tottenham would get Champions League money next season.

A lot of people need to learn some patience. Everyone here is increasingly likely to be locked in their houses for the foreseeable future.


----------



## gary69

Juventus has said that they will lose 110m € if the season isn't finished.

With losses like that, UEFA has to scrap the FFP , or at least suspend it for a few years.


----------



## Live in the Now

gary69 said:


> Juventus has said that they will lose 110m € if the season isn't finished.




But every team wants the season voided and unfinished!!!


----------



## Havre

Zzz

Considering we got so much time on our hands the next couple of months it is fascinating the efforts some go to trying to ruin discussions.


----------



## KingLB

gary69 said:


> Juventus has said that they will lose 110m € if the season isn't finished.
> 
> With losses like that, UEFA has to scrap the FFP , or at least suspend it for a few years.




I’d love to see how they came up with those numbers. Though I’d love to think what City is thinking now...if we coulda held off just a few more months!!!




Live in the Now said:


> But every team wants the season voided and unfinished!!!




CDC (I’d expect European govt to do same if not more) now saying 8 weeks without large gatherings. I just don’t see how you get a 38 game schedule in and give players a break. Even if you push back start of next season. I mean at what point do you just call it? If this goes into May at all players could be playing into July...20-21 season could see enormous amounts of muscle/fatigue injuries in this scenario.


----------



## YNWA14

KingLB said:


> CDC (I’d expect European govt to do same if not more) now saying 8 weeks without large gatherings. I just don’t see how you get a 38 game schedule in and give players a break. Even if you push back start of next season. I mean at what point do you just call it? If this goes into May at all players could be playing into July...20-21 season could see enormous amounts of muscle/fatigue injuries in this scenario.



Well, Europe is a bit ahead of NA in the 'curve' but at the same time you're also talking about players that will have had more than a 2 month rest at that point already, then another rest afterward because I highly doubt the Euros will go ahead with all of this going on. I don't see fatigue being the issue going forward here. Logistics are going to be a problem obviously but they'll sort it out. Money talks.


----------



## YNWA14

Apparently in 1999 the title was awarded to Partizan Belgrade when the league was suspended with 10 games to go and they were only 2 points clear at the top at the time, and supposedly UEFA stepped in to make it happen.


----------



## KingLB

YNWA14 said:


> Well, Europe is a bit ahead of NA in the 'curve' but at the same time you're also talking about players that will have had more than a 2 month rest at that point already, then another rest afterward because I highly doubt the Euros will go ahead with all of this going on. I don't see fatigue being the issue going forward here. Logistics are going to be a problem obviously but they'll sort it out. Money talks.




Except the usual ~10 month season becomes 12-14 months. Plus the Euros after that.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

gary69 said:


> Juventus has said that they will lose 110m € if the season isn't finished.
> 
> With losses like that, UEFA has to scrap the FFP , or at least suspend it for a few years.




They might have to give up on retaining Ronaldo.


----------



## hatterson

I think what will likely happen is a quarantine of the players and empty stadium games, but that’s still several weeks out.


----------



## Havre

Not sure if that is possible. Players will interact with physios, they will interact with family members etc.

Would obviously be the best solution if they could come up with something like that.

And I could see if they come up with some sort of antiviral treatment over the next couple of weeks that life will go back to some kind of normal where games are played. I have no idea how likely that is though. China will apparently start testing vaccines in April. That would in any case be too late to finish this season, but maybe "accepting" that people will get sick could happen within a time frame to still finish this season at some point during the summer.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Havre said:


> Not sure if that is possible. Players will interact with physios, they will interact with family members etc.
> 
> Would obviously be the best solution if they could come up with something like that.




It's up to the players to be responsible for that, not the league. The league can't control the private lives of players, unless the players are likely spreading the virus, as a result of that. 



> And I could see if they come up with some sort of antiviral treatment over the next couple of weeks that life will go back to some kind of normal where games are played. I have no idea how likely that is though




Vaccines are far from being tested. Antiviral treatments are only last-resort methods to treat the virus, mostly those who are heavily infected. 



> China will apparently start testing vaccines in April.




I wouldn't trust China entirely, if I were you.


----------



## hatterson

They’re likely starting to test vaccines in the lab, but the issue with vaccines is that it’s a massive process of fine tuning it.

Figuring out what can be left in the viral payload to initiate an immune response without exposing danger of the illness itself is a long process of trial and error.

Plus there’s incredibly limited information on what immunity looks like for COVID-19. Does being sick confer long term immunity (years or lifetime)? Or is it shorter term immunity like the cold (order of months)?

That significantly affects the vaccine development too since that can make the difference between a one and done vaccine and a repeated process.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

hatterson said:


> They’re likely starting to test vaccines in the lab, but the issue with vaccines is that it’s a massive process of fine tuning it.
> 
> *Figuring out what can be left in the viral payload to initiate an immune response without exposing danger of the illness itself* is a long process of trial and error.
> 
> Plus there’s incredibly limited information on what immunity looks like for COVID-19. Does being sick confer long term immunity (years or lifetime)? Or is it shorter term immunity like the cold (order of months)?
> 
> That significantly affects the vaccine development too since that can make the difference between a one and done vaccine and a repeated process.




That's why a vaccine is an attenuated version of a particular virus, in order to trigger an initial immune response without causing total infection within the human body.


----------



## Havre

Not suggesting that is a good thing, but the Chinese look at this slightly differently than most "Western" countries do. So instead of going through all the steps making sure the vaccine is safe etc. I could see the Chinese being more pragmatic. I imagine you could "fine-tune" a vaccine a lot faster when you are forcing millions of humans to take it. Doesn't mean it will be given to PL players just because the Chinese say it is safe, but it should accelerate the process of getting one regardless. The point being as soon as "we" are fairly certain this will not spiral out of control restrictions will be lifted one by one. Right now I don't think we are at that point and probably not close enough to be able to finish the PL season in any normal way until Autumn at best (obviously speculation from my point - hopefully the next couple of weeks will help us gain some clarity on the longer term solutions to this).

Obviously the "West" would also accept the risks if the mortality rate was 70% instead of the fairly low number we are seeing from COVID-19.


----------



## hatterson

Vancouver Canucks said:


> That's why a vaccine is an attenuated version of a particular virus, in order to trigger an initial immune response without causing total infection within the human body.




Right, and that attenuation, especially for a virus with no history, can be a long trial and error process.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

hatterson said:


> Right, and that attenuation, especially for a virus with no history, can be a long trial and error process.




Yes, that's why clinical trials for a vaccine takes about a year or even more.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

BKIslandersFan said:


> Who's everyone? Because everyone not a Liverpool fan agrees with her.




Speak for yourself dude, I'm a Chelsea fan and her article was an absolute joke


----------



## BKIslandersFan

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Speak for yourself dude, I'm a Chelsea fan and her article was an absolute joke



Maybe the way she put it was a joke but the point is correct. Season has to be cancelled.


----------



## YNWA14

BKIslandersFan said:


> Maybe the way she put it was a joke but the point is correct. Season has to be cancelled.



Why does it have to be cancelled?


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

YNWA14 said:


> Why does it have to be cancelled?



Because my team isnt doing well.


----------



## The Abusement Park

BKIslandersFan said:


> Maybe the way she put it was a joke but the point is correct. Season has to be cancelled.



Well there’s too much money to outright cancel it. Teams in the relegation fight have too much to lose without some sort of end to the season.


----------



## BKIslandersFan

YNWA14 said:


> Why does it have to be cancelled?



WHEN DO YOU WANT THEM TO RESTART THE SEASON?


Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Because my team isnt doing well.



Some people think in bigger picture.


The Abusement Park said:


> Well there’s too much money to outright cancel it. Teams in the relegation fight have too much to lose without some sort of end to the season.



Everyone is going to end up losing a lot of money either way.


----------



## Havre

Yeah. I honestly don't see the money argument. If you postpone or shorten the next season money will be lost either way.

What if this lasts for 2 years? Or 5 years for that matter - should we still continue the season?

I don't think anyone want the season to be considered void - and I believe Liverpool will end up getting the title. Mostly because this will be driven by emotions and what "feels" fair rather than on principle.

Now some will now misunderstand me and think I want the season to be considered void. I don't. And this might seem strange to some of the frequent posters on here, but I am curious to how you can end the season now based on a fair general principle. I see that has ended up in some Liverpool-fans (and good old VC) trying to insult me personally, but that is missing the point (and quite frankly tells me quite a lot about them).


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

Havre said:


> I see that has ended up in some Liverpool-fans (and good old VC) trying to insult me personally, but that is missing the point (and quite frankly tells me quite a lot about them).




And you're a "good old Havre" trying to insult me personally, although I do agree with you on the fact that Liverpool deserves to win the Premier League Cup this year.


----------



## YNWA14

Typical victim throwing stones in a glass house.

Anyway there is precedent for awarding the title on an unfinished season already, UEFA stepped in for Partizan Belgrade, though again not sure why this even matters.


----------



## YNWA14

BKIslandersFan said:


> WHEN DO YOU WANT THEM TO RESTART THE SEASON?




When they feel comfortable/Corona is under control? I can tell you society can’t be shut down for months at a time without total economic collapse. People judge others for the outlook that this is relatively harmless to most people but shutting down society affects a lot more people than Corona ever will, and many of them will never recover. It’s a difficult situation for everyone, but at a certain point the decision will be made that the curve has been flattened enough to restart.


----------



## Havre

Victim? You truly are something special. How many times do I have to say I believe it would be fair to give Liverpool the title before you stop this childish c!"#?

If you don't want to have the discussion then fine, but silly comments like that is rather pointless.


----------



## phisherman

YNWA14 said:


> When they feel comfortable/Corona is under control? I can tell you society can’t be shut down for months at a time without total economic collapse. People judge others for the outlook that this is relatively harmless to most people but shutting down society affects a lot more people than Corona ever will, and many of them will never recover. It’s a difficult situation for everyone, but at a certain point the decision will be made that the curve has been flattened enough to restart.




People die from the coronavirus. f*** off with your bullshit.


----------



## Havre

phisherman said:


> People die from the coronavirus. f*** off with your bullshit.




If I were to apply his logic on himself - he is a Liverpool fan so the only thing that matters is for the season to be restarted as quickly as possible.

Obviously I don't believe he/she thinks that, but that is about the level he/she uses when posting on here at the moment.

And I believe his post in this case is correct - not short term, but at some point there will have to be a cost benefit analysis done. It would be surprise me if that analysis doesn't show that we have to accept people getting sick. Time will show.


----------



## phisherman

Havre said:


> If I were to apply his logic on himself - he is a Liverpool fan so the only thing that matters is for the season to be restarted as quickly as possible.
> 
> Obviously I don't believe he/she thinks that, but that is about the level he/she uses when posting on here at the moment.
> 
> *And I believe his post in this case is correct - not short term, but at some point there will have to be a cost benefit analysis done. It would be surprise me if that analysis doesn't show that we have to accept people getting sick. Time will show*.




Would you feel that way if you know someone that got sick and died from this?


----------



## Burner Account

I don't think the powers that be are waiting for the complete eradication of Coronavirus. To my understanding, the objective is to resume somewhat-normal life when they're confident their healthcare systems can handle the number of cases.


----------



## Havre

phisherman said:


> Would you feel that way if you know someone that got sick and died from this?




Society does this all the time. Not that I am comparing COVID-19 with the flu, but we do not shut down society for the flu - even if that would have saved lives. It is always a matter of degree and when something becomes more costly than beneficial.

We could get rid of all fatal car accidents tomorrow if we wanted to. No car will ever go faster than 15 km per hour. That will have a cost to society as well.

Same with COVID-19. We could by law force every single person to stay in their apartment - and the virus would stop. In China they have even welded the doors of people not following the instructions.

When does the cost of those kind of measures outweigh the benefits? I don't know, but nothing is done "at all costs" in reality. Football obviously is completely besides the point here, but factories etc. are not.

As for me personally I got family members in that high risk category. So I am not taking this lightly.


----------



## Havre

kyle evs48 said:


> I don't think the powers that be are waiting for the complete eradication of Coronavirus. To my understanding, the objective is to resume somewhat-normal life when they're confident their healthcare systems can handle the number of cases.




Would agree with this. Hopefully the next couple of weeks will give us some clarity as to what that means.

Unfortunately this will be devastating for the people currently in already tough conditions. Refugee camps, homeless people etc.


----------



## phisherman

Havre said:


> Society does this all the time. Not that I am comparing COVID-19 with the flu, but we do not shut down society for the flu - even if that would have saved lives. It is always a matter of degree and when something becomes more costly than beneficial.
> 
> We could get rid of all fatal car accidents tomorrow if we wanted to. No car will ever go faster than 15 km per hour. That will have a cost to society as well.
> 
> Same with COVID-19. We could by law force every single person to stay in their apartment - and the virus would stop. In China they have even welded the doors of people not following the instructions.
> 
> When does the cost of those kind of measures outweigh the benefits? I don't know, but nothing is done "at all costs" in reality. Football obviously is completely besides the point here, but factories etc. are not.
> 
> As for me personally I got family members in that high risk category. So I am not taking this lightly.




Look at Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan as examples of how they are controlling this. 

The problem is this wasn't taken seriously in the first place which has led to this whole shut down for the majority of the world. Countries would have been in a better situation if they didn't have such an entitled and privileged mindset.


----------



## Burner Account

Havre said:


> Would agree with this. Hopefully the next couple of weeks will give us some clarity as to what that means.
> 
> Unfortunately this will be devastating for the people currently in already tough conditions. Refugee camps, homeless people etc.



All of this is to ensure each country or healthcare system doesn't encounter more Coronavirus patients than it has hospital beds, or more importantly respirators. Italy has so many deaths because it's facing too many infections at once, so many of the deaths are attributable to a lack of available equipment.

If you have 100 respirators but 200 patients all need them at once, that's bad news. But if you can spread those 200 infections out over 4 months through social distancing and closings, you then have a surplus of respirators and fewer deaths attributable to a lack of equipment. This is the goal.


----------



## Havre

phisherman said:


> Look at Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan as examples of how they are controlling this.
> 
> The problem is this wasn't taken seriously in the first place which has led to this whole shut down for the majority of the world. Countries would have been in a better situation if they didn't have such an entitled and privileged mindset.




I saw the speech the Singaporean prime minister held the other day. They have no illusions as to being able to stop this - they are just preparing for the next wave.

I have not heard a single expert say that they believe the current measures being taken in most of Europe will stop this (based on the current understanding of the virus). Slow down yes, but not stop.


----------



## phisherman

Havre said:


> I saw the speech the Singaporean prime minister held the other day. They have no illusions as to being able to stop this - they are just preparing for the next wave.
> 
> I have not heard a single expert say that they believe the current measures being taken in most of Europe will stop this (based on the current understanding of the virus). Slow down yes, but not stop.




Who says anything about stopping this. The goal is to slow it down like what kyle said. 

Singapore is doing a really good job of controlling this right now so that hospitals have enough resources to treat their patients.

While we have other countries that are at risk of being overwhelmed where people are running marathons and licking toilet seats because "it's just the flu bro."


----------



## Havre

kyle evs48 said:


> All of this is to ensure each country or healthcare system doesn't encounter more Coronavirus patients than it has hospital beds, or more importantly respirators. Italy has so many deaths because it's facing too many infections at once, so many of the deaths are attributable to a lack of available equipment.
> 
> If you have 100 respirators but 200 patients all need them at once, that's bad news. But if you can spread those 200 infections out over 4 months through social distancing and closings, you then have a surplus of respirators and fewer deaths attributable to a lack of equipment. This is the goal.




Yes. That part is clear. What is not clear is how many are already infected without much symptoms etc.

If there are currently 1000 cases in a country known and 50 of those are in hospital - you can extrapolate how much capacity is needed. But no-one knows if it is really 50 out of 1000 or if the real number of infected people are for example 30 000 (suggested by some that the real number of infected people is about 30x the number known - obviously also a guess).

We can only hope there is a lot more people already infected that we don't know about. Sounds unlikely, but I like to stay positive.


----------



## Havre

phisherman said:


> Who says anything about stopping this. The goal is to slow it down like what kyle said.
> 
> Singapore is doing a really good job of controlling this right now so that hospitals have enough resources to treat their patients.
> 
> While we have other countries that are at risk of being overwhelmed where people are running marathons and licking toilet seats because "it's just the flu bro."




Well. You were criticizing someone for even mentioning cost benefit. I just explained that Singapore (your example) are using cost benefit - and will "allow" more people to get sick. In other words they will be doing what you criticizing someone for suggesting we will have to do at some point.


----------



## YNWA14

phisherman said:


> People die from the coronavirus. f*** off with your bullshit.



People die from starvation, suicide, drug overdoses, and many other sicknesses and accidents every single day. It's the only reason this coronavirus is even a worldwide issue since the health systems in the world are already so taxed that they can't handle a large influx of something else on top of all of those things at once. That's reality. It's not bullshit that people are going to lose their jobs, their businesses, their livelihoods (and in turn, not be able to take care of themselves or their families, or worse) if the economy collapses or if they have to stay locked out for extended periods of time. On a personal level everyone can relate to being upset if someone in their family dies from a sickness, I've been through it, it sucks. The thing is that policy makers, governments and so on can't operate on the emotions on an individual level. At a certain point they have to think of what best benefits society and unfortunately sometimes that means putting the economy and societal wellbeing over a relatively small number of lives. I have many people in my family that are at risk for this virus, so I'm doing what I can and getting them to do what they can also. Unlike you, I can still have a rational discussion about what I think is actually going to happen regardless of my personal feelings or fears and can still look at a bigger scope of things (speaking of entitled and privileged).



Havre said:


> If I were to apply his logic on himself - he is a Liverpool fan so the only thing that matters is for the season to be restarted as quickly as possible.
> 
> Obviously I don't believe he/she thinks that, but that is about the level he/she uses when posting on here at the moment.
> 
> And I believe his post in this case is correct - not short term, but at some point there will have to be a cost benefit analysis done. It would be surprise me if that analysis doesn't show that we have to accept people getting sick. Time will show.



I don't care when they restart, or if they give Liverpool the title. I've already detailed my thoughts on that before any of this got as bad as it is. Whether they award the title or not it doesn't change what happened this season or the historic form that Liverpool have shown since last season, the trophies they have won, and so on. My post was a comment on the fact that you take shots at people constantly then act as if you're some kind of victim when people do the same, you tell people they're ignorant or imply it and say they aren't willing to consider a different perspective when you are exactly the same. It's hypocritical and shows a complete lack of self awareness. I've provided examples as to why I think a certain outcome could happen, but at the end of the day it really doesn't change this season one way or another for me.


----------



## phisherman

Havre said:


> Well. You were criticizing someone for even mentioning cost benefit. I just explained that Singapore (your example) are using cost benefit - and will "allow" more people to get sick. In other words they will be doing what you criticizing someone for suggesting we will have to do at some point.




They're not allowing people to get sick. They took quick action to not let things get out of control. 

Widespread available testing, distribution of face masks, and closing down schools are some of the things these countries did to not get it to the levels of Italy and Iran. 

Their cost benefit analysis was prevent the spread early to prevent as much death as possible.

The cost benefit of other countries was to let people die to not tank the economy.


----------



## Burner Account

Havre said:


> Yes. That part is clear. What is not clear is how many are already infected without much symptoms etc.
> 
> If there are currently 1000 cases in a country known and 50 of those are in hospital - you can extrapolate how much capacity is needed. But no-one knows if it is really 50 out of 1000 or if the real number of infected people are for example 30 000 (suggested by some that the real number of infected people is about 30x the number known - obviously also a guess).
> 
> We can only hope there is a lot more people already infected that we don't know about. Sounds unlikely, but I like to stay positive.



Agreed, this is probably the case – at least in the U.S. where it's been very difficult for patients to get tested unless they're very symptomatic or rich.


----------



## phisherman

YNWA14 said:


> People die from starvation, suicide, drug overdoses, and many other sicknesses and accidents every single day. It's the only reason this coronavirus is even a worldwide issue since the health systems in the world are already so taxed that they can't handle a large influx of something else on top of all of those things at once. That's reality. It's not bullshit that people are going to lose their jobs, their businesses, their livelihoods (and in turn, not be able to take care of themselves or their families, or worse) if the economy collapses or if they have to stay locked out for extended periods of time. On a personal level everyone can relate to being upset if someone in their family dies from a sickness, I've been through it, it sucks. The thing is that policy makers, governments and so on can't operate on the emotions on an individual level. At a certain point they have to think of what best benefits society and unfortunately sometimes that means putting the economy and societal wellbeing over a relatively small number of lives. I have many people in my family that are at risk for this virus, so I'm doing what I can and getting them to do what they can also. Unlike you, I can still have a rational discussion about what I think is actually going to happen regardless of my personal feelings or fears and can still look at a bigger scope of things (speaking of entitled and privileged).




A lot of what you listed are based on an individual's actions. And the economy never goes straight up. Was 2008 because of the coronavirus? A lot of people lost their livelihoods that time. 

Your initial reaction to the coronavirus is exactly in line with why countries have taken so long to act on this.


----------



## Havre

phisherman said:


> They're not allowing people to get sick. They took quick action to not let things get out of control.
> 
> Widespread available testing, distribution of face masks, and closing down schools are some of the things these countries did to not get it to the levels of Italy and Iran.
> 
> Their cost benefit analysis was prevent the spread early to prevent as much death as possible.
> 
> The cost benefit of other countries was to let people die to not tank the economy.




They will let it happen.

As for the execution clearly some countries did better than others.


----------



## YNWA14

phisherman said:


> A lot of what you listed are based on an individual's actions.



Sure, in the same way that getting infected by corona is based on an individual's actions.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

YNWA14 said:


> People die from starvation, suicide, drug overdoses, and many other sicknesses and accidents every single day. It's the only reason this coronavirus is even a worldwide issue since the health systems in the world are already so taxed that they can't handle a large influx of something else on top of all of those things at once. That's reality. It's not bullshit that people are going to lose their jobs, their businesses, their livelihoods (and in turn, not be able to take care of themselves or their families, or worse) if the economy collapses or if they have to stay locked out for extended periods of time. On a personal level everyone can relate to being upset if someone in their family dies from a sickness, I've been through it, it sucks. The thing is that policy makers, governments and so on can't operate on the emotions on an individual level. At a certain point they have to think of what best benefits society and unfortunately sometimes that means putting the economy and societal wellbeing over a relatively small number of lives. I have many people in my family that are at risk for this virus, so I'm doing what I can and getting them to do what they can also. Unlike you, I can still have a rational discussion about what I think is actually going to happen regardless of my personal feelings or fears and can still look at a bigger scope of things (speaking of entitled and privileged).




The thing is that there's no current vaccine for it, and the virus has the potential to become even more virulent, so causing more sicknesses and possibly deaths for immunocompromised individuals. Sports players are not an exception. In fact, we haven't hit the worst of times on this virus yet.


----------



## YNWA14

Vancouver Canucks said:


> The thing is that there's no current vaccine for it, and the virus has the potential to become even more virulent, so causing more sicknesses and possibly deaths for immunocompromised individuals. Sports players are not an exception. In fact, we haven't hit the worst of times on this virus yet.



What do you mean sports players are not an exception? Also what do you mean the virus has the potential to become even more virulent? South Korea has 'flattened the curve' in less than a month; obviously they were prepared a little better and reacted well, but Canada for example is in the process of shutting down non-essential services and implementing social distancing on top of travel bans, etc. with only a couple hundred cases as well. That's on top of Canada probably naturally being a more difficult country to spread the virus compared to more populous/smaller countries or the whole of Europe where the infrastructure is very different. Many countries in Europe seem to be having a more encouraging trend as well than places like Italy and Iran. That said yeah, some countries still have yet to hit the peak of this virus, but it's still really hard to say what that is and it varies country to country.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

YNWA14 said:


> What do you mean sports players are not an exception? Also what do you mean the virus has the potential to become even more virulent? South Korea has 'flattened the curve' in less than a month; obviously they were prepared a little better and reacted well, but Canada for example is in the process of shutting down non-essential services and implementing social distancing on top of travel bans, etc. with only a couple hundred cases as well. That's on top of Canada probably naturally being a more difficult country to spread the virus compared to more populous/smaller countries or the whole of Europe where the infrastructure is very different. Many countries in Europe seem to be having a more encouraging trend as well than places like Italy and Iran. That said yeah, some countries still have yet to hit the peak of this virus, but it's still really hard to say what that is and it varies country to country.




Yeah, I understand places like Korea and Taiwan have shown exemplary effort in containing the virus. North America hasn't had many cases as Europe does right now. However, Europe is hit hard, and this isn't the worst of the virus. Death tolls have the potential to rise, if people don't take preventative measures. In fact, a vaccine isn't developed yet. I agree that starvation, deaths from flu, and other factors create more deaths, but we don't want to worsen the tragedy because of this pandemic, right?


----------



## THE HOFF

Vancouver Canucks said:


> Yeah, I understand places like Korea and Taiwan have shown exemplary effort in containing the virus. North America hasn't had many cases as Europe does right now. However, Europe is hit hard, and this isn't the worst of the virus. Death tolls have the potential to rise, if people don't take preventative measures. *In fact, a vaccine isn't developed yet*. I agree that starvation, deaths from flu, and other factors create more deaths, but *we don't want to worsen the tragedy because of this pandemic, right?*




Vaccine is now on trial but most importantly there are some effective cures for the virus. Cuba's Interferon B is being used in China and now in Italy (with the help of Chinese and Cuban doctors) and has shown to be very efficient. Of all countries, Cuba has emerged as a global leader by providing a viable cure (created in 1986) and dispatching personnel in central and south america, Africa, Europe and Asia. America's stubborn attitude towards Cuba might directly result in some avoidable deaths, which I personally find profoundly sad and totally self inflicted.


----------



## Vancouver Canucks

THE HOFF said:


> Vaccine is now on trial but most importantly there are some effective cures for the virus. Cuba's Interferon B is being used in China and now in Italy (with the help of Chinese and Cuban doctors) and has shown to be very efficient. Of all countries, Cuba has emerged as a global leader by providing a viable cure (created in 1986) and dispatching personnel in central and south america, Africa, Europe and Asia. America's stubborn attitude towards Cuba might directly result in some avoidable deaths, which I personally find profoundly sad and totally self inflicted.




Trials could take months or even more than a year. Usually, people with strong immune systems can overcome this virus with those types of medcations. Surely, they are effective, but those with suppressed immune systems like the elderly are likely to take a hit from this significantly. That's what most people are concerned about. Sorry that I'm on a tangent. Sports players, though, probably have good immune systems, so they should be able to overcome the virus.


----------



## hatterson

The vaccine currently on trial started yesterday and it's a year long trial.

We're 12-18 months, minimum, out from having a vaccine that's ready for broad public use.


----------



## Havre

hatterson said:


> The vaccine currently on trial started yesterday and it's a year long trial.
> 
> We're 12-18 months, minimum, out from having a vaccine that's ready for broad public use.




Don't want to be overly optimistic, but as argued before I am pretty sure the Chinese will accelerate that process quite significantly.

One of the reasons it takes so long is because "we" are more careful in the "west" when it comes to side-effects etc. than the Chinese.

And I don't want to be disrespectful to the Chinese. I used to live there and loved it - partly because of the people. No getting around they see both animals and humans more "expendable" for the "greater good" than most western countries though.


----------



## BKIslandersFan

YNWA14 said:


> When they feel comfortable/Corona is under control? I can tell you society can’t be shut down for months at a time without total economic collapse. People judge others for the outlook that this is relatively harmless to most people but shutting down society affects a lot more people than Corona ever will, and many of them will never recover. It’s a difficult situation for everyone, but at a certain point the decision will be made that the curve has been flattened enough to restart.



Sure, if the curve neatly flattens by May then maybe they can get the season in. But if it goes on until July or August the season can’t be restarted.


----------



## Live in the Now

BKIslandersFan said:


> Sure, if the curve neatly flattens by May then maybe they can get the season in. But if it goes on until July or August the season can’t be restarted.




UEFA just made a deal with clubs to ensure the season will be finished. Even after June. There is language in the deal pertaining to if the season hasn't finished by then, saying that the European competitions will be altered in that event.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

I do believe the season will resume at some point. I would expect a more condensed schedule with possibly 2 or 3 games per week.
Worst case scenario in around august


----------



## BKIslandersFan

Live in the Now said:


> UEFA just made a deal with clubs to ensure the season will be finished. Even after June. There is language in the deal pertaining to if the season hasn't finished by then, saying that the European competitions will be altered in that event.



If pandemic keeps up until summer, its nothing but empty words.


----------



## Live in the Now

BKIslandersFan said:


> If pandemic keeps up until summer, its nothing but empty words.




Except they just made a deal about that. I know you don't want the season to finish because West Ham will get relegated, but it's going to finish. They'll play the games every two or three days if they have to.


----------



## BKIslandersFan

Live in the Now said:


> Except they just made a deal about that. I know you don't want the season to finish because West Ham will get relegated, but it's going to finish. They'll play the games every two or three days if they have to.



I. Don't. Care. About. That.

Not everyone is all about themselves in these times.

Logically it makes no sense considering they don't know WHEN the peak will come. Are they gonna be out here playing during the peak?


----------



## Live in the Now

BKIslandersFan said:


> I. Don't. Care. About. That.
> 
> Not everyone is all about themselves in these times.
> 
> Logically it makes no sense considering they don't know WHEN the peak will come. Are they gonna be out here playing during the peak?




I don't know why it would surprise you if they were, considering UEFA sent Valencia to play Atalanta with everyone knowing they would get infected. UEFA and the teams have clearly taken steps to let everyone know they want the money from this season. Before the next season starts they'll finish this one.


----------



## BKIslandersFan

Live in the Now said:


> I don't know why it would surprise you if they were, considering UEFA sent Valencia to play Atalanta with everyone knowing they would get infected. UEFA and the teams have clearly taken steps to let everyone know they want the money from this season. Before the next season starts they'll finish this one.



I don't think even UEFA are that reckless.


----------



## Live in the Now

BKIslandersFan said:


> I don't think even UEFA are that reckless.




But they are, they just did it!

Valencia Announce 35 Percent of Players, Staff Tested Have Coronavirus

These groups and these teams, all they care about is money.


----------



## S E P H

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Because my team isnt doing well.



Arsenal has a great chance of getting into the top 4, so I hope it doesn't get cancelled.


----------



## East Coast Bias

S E P H said:


> Arsenal has a great chance of getting into the top 4, so I hope it doesn't get cancelled.




theyre 8 pts back behind 5 teams, with 10 games to go. 

Those 10 games include City, wolves and Spurs away. Liverpool and Leicester at home. 

wouldn’t be favorited in half the matches they got left.


----------



## Havre

Still the best chance they have had for years and years


----------



## S E P H

East Coast Bias said:


> theyre 8 pts back behind 5 teams, with 10 games to go.
> 
> Those 10 games include City, wolves and Spurs away. Liverpool and Leicester at home.
> 
> wouldn’t be favorited in half the matches they got left.



Arsenal have the 17th (or 3rd) easiest remaining schedule of the 20 EPL teams. Sure that schedule looks tough, but 16 teams have tougher schedules and Arsenal are in good form except one random match against a corona-filled Greece. We got this.


----------



## NorCalhockey

YNWA14 said:


> Well, Europe is a bit ahead of NA in the 'curve' but at the same time you're also talking about players that will have had more than a 2 month rest at that point already, then another rest afterward because I highly doubt the Euros will go ahead with all of this going on. I don't see fatigue being the issue going forward here. Logistics are going to be a problem obviously but they'll sort it out. Money talks.





KingLB said:


> Except the usual ~10 month season becomes 12-14 months. Plus the Euros after that.



Pardon me, I didn't read through this whole thread, but what about the 2022 World Cup? If games keep being pushed back further and further, what happens to the '22 World Cup tournament? For ALL leagues, and ALL Cup competitions in the 20-21 season, do they just play far fewer matches so that *everything* in the 19-20 season (19-20 domestic matches, 19-20 Champions/Europa Leagues, etc.) can be done? If every single domestic & Cup match *must be played due to contractual obligations*, how would they fit it all in?! That would push up against the '22 World Cup. Forget the corona virus - many, many players would die due to exhaustion!


----------



## Stray Wasp

I can imagine the 2022 World Cup takes place exactly as planned even if it requires a Weekend at Bernie's scenario, or a tournament comprising teams of holograms.

We all know about the, shall we say, levels of zeal that surround the staging of that particular tournament.


----------



## Live in the Now

None of the teams want the season voided. It will be finished.


----------



## YNWA14

Live in the Now said:


> None of the teams want the season voided. It will be finished.




This has been obvious, IMO, since the beginning. Not from a personal standpoint because again, I don't think finishing the season changes anything for Liverpool for me especially now that they've been eliminated from the CL. There's just too much money involved. They'll likely be starting back up sooner than people expect as well.


----------



## gary69

Live in the Now said:


> UEFA just made a deal with clubs to ensure the season will be finished. Even after June. There is language in the deal pertaining to if the season hasn't finished by then, saying that the European competitions will be altered in that event.




Yeah, the season will be finished, even if has to named season 19-21. 

There won't be as much uproar (if any at all) about a season that never started, started late or had different rules (number of games) than a previous one. People won't moan about season that never was years into the future compared to a unfinished season. Transfer windows, player contracts etc. are a non-issue, player personnel changes during a normal season as well. Heck, older posters here can remember even times when there were no transfer windows at all, but players could move at any time (at least inside the domestic league).


----------



## Live in the Now

gary69 said:


> Yeah, the season will be finished, even if has to named season 19-21.
> 
> There won't be as much uproar (if any at all) about a season that never started, started late or had different rules (number of games) than a previous one. People won't moan about season that never was years into the future compared to a unfinished season. Transfer windows, player contracts etc. are a non-issue, player personnel changes during a normal season as well. Heck, older posters here can remember even times when there were no transfer windows at all, but players could move at any time (at least inside the domestic league).




They can also just do a 2021 season starting in the winter if things really get to that point. Then they would readjust things after the World Cup. There are all kinds of things that they can do to fix the next season as you suggested.

There's no chance in hell of them cancelling this season though, I don't know why people can't really get that.


----------



## robertmac43

Any teams that are particularly injured at the moment? This forced break could be beneficial if so.


----------



## Jussi

robertmac43 said:


> Any teams that are particularly injured at the moment? This forced break could be beneficial if so.




I hear Phil Jones tripped at his house and has a bruised knee.


----------



## Havre

Spurs are not complaining. Kane, Son, Sissoko, Bergwijn and Davies back - while N'Dombele spends 5 hours a day on a treadmill.

Don't think it matters much, but got to be one of the teams "benefiting" the most from this (Spurs always win - delay or cancellation - world is unfair).

I could see there being some sort of Qatar-adjustment, but right now I really don't see how they will ever catch up this lost time. Maybe it will force UEFA, FA etc. to start reducing games? Would be a fantastic side-effect if so.


----------



## Live in the Now

IMO the league cup will get cut for a year, games will be played in those mid week spots to shorten the time of the next season.

Every team will need very good depth. There also may be some kind of playoff mechanism to reduce the schedule and still make more money.


----------



## hatterson

Live in the Now said:


> IMO the league cup will get cut for a year, games will be played in those mid week spots to shorten the time of the next season.
> 
> Every team will need very good depth. There also may be some kind of playoff mechanism to reduce the schedule and still make more money.




I think they’ll also push a few more midweek games near the start of the season.

It wouldn’t be hard to chop 6-7 weeks of the length of the season by adding midweek games throughout.

I assume the CL will also make some changes, maybe a shorter qualifying and group stage, in order to trim theirs as well.


----------



## Havre

How many mid weeks are free in a normal season? I guess a combined effort removing the league cup etc. could work?

Not sure if I see the consistency in argumentation though. The League Cup might go as if that has no financial effect on things.

Time will show how many weeks one would need to catch up. My gut feeling right now is telling me that it will not be possible to catch up everything in 12 months ("one season").


----------



## Savant

Live in the Now said:


> None of the teams want the season voided. It will be finished.




But, but the banter


----------



## phisherman

There will need to be a preseason as I don't think any player will be match fit. That needs to be considered when they come up with whatever schedule they come up with.


----------



## East Coast Bias

S E P H said:


> Arsenal have the 17th (or 3rd) easiest remaining schedule of the 20 EPL teams.




Based on what? They won't be favorites in 50% of their remaining matches. 50%

I'd love to see a metric that calls that an easy schedule. Just browsing Wolves, United, Chelsea and Spurs remaining - none have more matches against the top than you.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Daily Mail, consider the source and all...

Coronavirus UK: Premier League clubs 'plan to play all remaining games behind closed doors' | Daily Mail Online


*Clubs are ready to play all of the remaining 92 games behind closed doors*
*All the remaining games would be shown live on TV to appease broadcasters*
*The matches would be played at two or three neutral venues at different times*


----------



## Havre

Still can't get my head around how that would work, but all for it if it does.


----------



## The Abusement Park

phisherman said:


> People die from the coronavirus. f*** off with your bullshit.



He isn’t wrong. Obviously getting a cure for the coronavirus is imperative, but locking down the world for 2/3/4/5 months at a time will destroy the economy.


----------



## phisherman

The Abusement Park said:


> He isn’t wrong. Obviously getting a cure for the coronavirus is imperative, but locking down the world for 2/3/4/5 months at a time will destroy the economy.




The economy doesn't just go up in a straight arrow. If what is being done can save potentially millions from death then it's worth it.


----------



## S E P H

East Coast Bias said:


> Based on what? They won't be favorites in 50% of their remaining matches. 50%
> 
> I'd love to see a metric that calls that an easy schedule. Just browsing Wolves, United, Chelsea and Spurs remaining - none have more matches against the top than you.



@YNWA14 posted it, in response that LFC have an easier schedule than us.


----------



## Jussi

The Abusement Park said:


> He isn’t wrong. Obviously getting a cure for the coronavirus is imperative, but locking down the world for 2/3/4/5 months at a time will destroy the economy.




Economy's wrecked globally. Period. Pretty much all the analysts and banks are confirming it. It's as inevitable as Thanos.


----------



## The Abusement Park

phisherman said:


> The economy doesn't just go up in a straight arrow. If what is being done can save potentially millions from death then it's worth it.



I'm not saying just let people die. But to just ignore the economy is just as dangerous as ignoring the virus. It's all about getting the vaccinations/cures out as fast as possible when safe to do so, whilst not letting the worlds economy just bottom out.


----------



## phisherman

The Abusement Park said:


> I'm not saying just let people die. But to just ignore the economy is just as dangerous as ignoring the virus. It's all about getting the vaccinations/cures out as fast as possible when safe to do so, whilst not letting the worlds economy just bottom out.




The economy goes up and down. In fact the economy was most likely going to go down anyways unless you think debt doesn't matter and constant money printing can go on forever.

The coronavirus accelerated the drop.


----------



## The Abusement Park

phisherman said:


> The economy goes up and down. In fact the economy was most likely going to go down anyways unless you think debt doesn't matter and constant money printing can go on forever.
> 
> The coronavirus accelerated the drop.



And if you quarantine everyone for 5 months millions possibly billions of people will lose their jobs and businesses. Sure there was bound to be a dip in the economy, but just completely ignoring it will have a huge impact in peoples lives, some that could be irreversible. Just like the virus I know, but like I said it's about finding a balance.


----------



## phisherman

The Abusement Park said:


> And if you quarantine everyone for 5 months millions possibly billions of people will lose their jobs and businesses. Sure there was bound to be a dip in the economy, but just completely ignoring it will have a huge impact in peoples lives, some that could be irreversible. Just like the virus I know, but like I said it's about finding a balance.




Governments can use fiscal and monetary policy to try and lessen the economic loss that is affecting people. 

Governments can't bring people back from the dead.


----------



## Live in the Now

The Abusement Park said:


> *And if you quarantine everyone for 5 months millions possibly billions of people will lose their jobs and businesses.* Sure there was bound to be a dip in the economy, but just completely ignoring it will have a huge impact in peoples lives, some that could be irreversible. Just like the virus I know, but like I said it's about finding a balance.




It's either that or send people to work knowing that they're killing each other.


----------



## YNWA14

Live in the Now said:


> It's either that or send people to work knowing that they're killing each other.



They’re not going to see it that way when looking at the mortality rate and demographics (and it’s not reality).


----------



## Live in the Now

YNWA14 said:


> They’re not going to see it that way when looking at the mortality rate and demographics (and it’s not reality).




Older people and people with health conditions don't work? That's news to me. This is after all a country where people retire and immediately take another very low paying job, or never retire at all.


----------



## YNWA14

Live in the Now said:


> Older people and people with health conditions don't work? That's news to me. This is after all a country where people retire and immediately take another very low paying job, or never retire at all.



It’s something like 20% of 65+ that are employed and I wouldn’t be surprised if that is also skewed toward people who are in good health. The vast majority of the workforce (and entertainment) falls into the not at risk population and that’s what they’ll look at when assessing risk.


----------



## Live in the Now

YNWA14 said:


> It’s something like 20% of 65+ that are employed and I wouldn’t be surprised if that is also skewed toward people who are in good health. The vast majority of the workforce (and entertainment) falls into the not at risk population and that’s what they’ll look at when assessing risk.




Because none of those people have to be around anyone who goes to work at all.


----------



## YNWA14

Live in the Now said:


> Because none of those people have to be around anyone who goes to work at all.



That’s not what anyone is saying either. But your statement was very sensational. The vast majority of people infected will be mild or asymptomatic and as the initial spike of infections lowers it will be treated much like other widespread viruses where there’s going to be a lot of emphasis on proper hygiene and staying home for those with symptoms. They’re not just going to keep people home until there’s a cure or a vaccine. Life will go on and it will likely be sooner than some people want it to be. Again, I think we all harbour some personal fears for those close to us that are at risk (and have empathy toward those that aren’t close) but society and governments have to look at the bigger picture and the best course for the most people. Hopefully at that point it’s under control enough that the risk for those worst affected is mitigated and controllable.


----------



## phisherman

WHO warns some children develop 'severe disease' from coronavirus
White House 'concerned' about reports from Italy and France on young people 'getting seriously ill'

Only old people are affected right?


----------



## YNWA14

phisherman said:


> WHO warns some children develop 'severe disease' from coronavirus
> White House 'concerned' about reports from Italy and France on young people 'getting seriously ill'
> 
> Only old people are affected right?



It’s weird it’s almost like literally nobody has said that. Also those articles are awful.

Coronavirus Age, Sex, Demographics (COVID-19) - Worldometer


----------



## Havre

Ah. The White House 

Considering the lack of testing the death rate for people below at least 50 is probably not higher than a normal flu.

This might have changed over the last 24 hours, but the average age of people dying from this in Norway so far is 89. Obviously ridiculously small sample so far, but my guess is that the White House is wrong.


----------



## Live in the Now

Havre said:


> Ah. The White House
> 
> Considering the lack of testing the death rate for people below at least 50 is probably not higher than a normal flu.
> 
> This might have changed over the last 24 hours, but the average age of people dying from this in Norway so far is 89. Obviously ridiculously small sample so far, but my guess is that the White House is wrong.




Younger Adults Make Up Big Portion of Coronavirus Hospitalizations in U.S.


----------



## Havre

Time will tell, but so far by far the biggest dataset is what worldometer got.

As for that last article it says nothing about the number of people in the different age groups that are infected.

_“if that many younger people are being hospitalized, that means that there are a lot of young people in the community that are walking around with the infection.”
_
So the two do not have to be mutually exclusive at this point. My guess they are not. Obviously just a guess at this point.

Obviously young people will die as well. They have and will. Not that I am comparing it with the flu in general, but influenza has so far killed 2 high school students in Norway. So even if the death rate for people under 50 is comparable with influenza people will still die.


----------



## sabremike

Havre said:


> Time will tell, but so far by far the biggest dataset is what worldometer got.
> 
> As for that last article it says nothing about the number of people in the different age groups that are infected.
> 
> _“if that many younger people are being hospitalized, that means that there are a lot of young people in the community that are walking around with the infection.”
> _
> So the two do not have to be mutually exclusive at this point. My guess they are not. Obviously just a guess at this point.
> 
> Obviously young people will die as well. They have and will. Not that I am comparing it with the flu in general, but influenza has so far killed 2 high school students in Norway. So even if the death rate for people under 50 is comparable with influenza people will still die.



There was an article in the NY Post with a big headline of "21 Year Old Soccer Coach Dies From Coronavirus" about someone who died in (IIRC) Spain. Sounds like the virus has taken a terrifying twist and is now killing young people. But then you read the article and it turns out the poor kid had leukemia. Oh. So when I saw the story linked above (which I can't read because I haven't registered for an account) my first thought was "Since this pattern has happened nowhere else in the world what explains it?" and then my next thought was that I suspect that most of them already had serious preexisting medical issues.


----------



## Havre

sabremike said:


> There was an article in the NY Post with a big headline of "21 Year Old Soccer Coach Dies From Coronavirus" about someone who died in (IIRC) Spain. Sounds like the virus has taken a terrifying twist and is now killing young people. But then you read the article and it turns out the poor kid had leukemia. Oh. So when I saw the story linked above (which I can't read because I haven't registered for an account) my first thought was "Since this pattern has happened nowhere else in the world what explains it?" and then my next thought was that I suspect that most of them already had serious preexisting medical issues.




I am not sure if it was from one hospital or region in Italy, but among around 300 people that have died 99.2% of them had one or more preexisting conditions. On average they had three (on a list of 10 or whatever conditions - obviously a question in itself how you define this).

Not arguing that therefore we can let people die, but I am starting to become slightly more positive about it.

Estimations about 20 000 dying in Norway, but it is also a fairly honest understanding that a lot of those would die in 2020 Corona or not. I think the next couple of weeks will bring some clarity to how long one should uphold the current restrictions to movement etc.

Also positive that there are apparently no new local cases in China. I still don't understand how that is possible, but if true fantastic.


----------



## sabremike

Havre said:


> I am not sure if it was from one hospital or region in Italy, but among around 300 people that have died 99.2% of them had one or more preexisting conditions. On average they had three (on a list of 10 or whatever conditions - obviously a question in itself how you define this).
> 
> Not arguing that therefore we can let people die, but I am starting to become slightly more positive about it.
> 
> Estimations about 20 000 dying in Norway, but it is also a fairly honest understanding that a lot of those would die in 2020 Corona or not. I think the next couple of weeks will bring some clarity to how long one should uphold the current restrictions to movement etc.
> 
> Also positive that there are apparently no new local cases in China. I still don't understand how that is possible, but if true fantastic.



I am skeptical of anything their government says but one reason I am certain the situation in Wuhan is under control is because Xi went there for a state visit. No way he goes there if there was still a risk of contracting the virus (when the thing was ongoing he sent his underlings to visit).


----------



## Havre

sabremike said:


> I am skeptical of anything their government says but one reason I am certain the situation in Wuhan is under control is because Xi went there for a state visit. No way he goes there if there was still a risk of contracting the virus (when the thing was ongoing he sent his underlings to visit).




I am repeating myself, but I don't see why the Chinese would start lying now? (not to you, but it has been discussed here before)

As for trusting governments I think that goes for all. So far during this I would say Singapore and Sweden seem to be of the more intelligent ones. Not that I am an expert and have followed everything they have said to the public - so I could be wrong. In Norway they have up until yesterday just dodged questions about the cost benefit analysis of having x amount of people die etc. - even if it is obvious that is something that has to be considered.

That is the good thing about the US I guess. You cannot accuse them of having the intention of lying. During a press conference you might hear 3 versions of the "truth". Unless that is perfectly planned they just misinform without being malicious about it (depending on how you define incompetence).


----------



## Chimaera

Young people might not die, but they get hospitalized. Leading to less access for people who will die. 

that said, some of this is based on the premise that the virus doesn’t change or patterns are consistent from what we have seen. We don’t know at this stage.


----------



## Cassano




----------



## YNWA14

phisherman said:


> The economy goes up and down. In fact the economy was most likely going to go down anyways unless you think debt doesn't matter and constant money printing can go on forever.
> 
> The coronavirus accelerated the drop.



This is such a silly stance. It’s like saying the people that die from COVID-19 were mostly just people who were dying anyway it just accelerated the process.


----------



## Prntscrn

Cassano said:


>




Yes, Liverpool fans are the only obnoxious ones. Wonder why  Let's see if people are willing to accept the consequences once Liverpool win


----------



## phisherman

YNWA14 said:


> This is such a silly stance. It’s like saying the people that die from COVID-19 were mostly just people who were dying anyway it just accelerated the process.




You're the silly one here if you thought the economy just goes up forever without a correction.

Everyone dies. But as a society we should do our best to prevent that for as long as possible.

People can still try to find jobs if they lose them and governments can still try to implement policies to relieve people from economic strain.


----------



## phisherman

Prntscrn said:


> Yes, Liverpool fans are the only obnoxious ones. Wonder why  Let's see if people are willing to accept the consequences once Liverpool win




You can't take a joke?


----------



## Prntscrn

phisherman said:


> You can't take a joke?




Oh I'm here for it. Just don't whine when the Liverpool fan base comes back in full force is all I'm saying. We've seen that people think Liverpool fans is annoying and obnoxious when dishing it back over and over again


----------



## YNWA14

phisherman said:


> You're the silly one here if you thought the economy just goes up forever without a correction.



Nobody thinks the economy just goes up forever, but there's a big difference between a correction and a total collapse. The same people telling others they don't understand how this virus is affecting people (again, a small percentage of the population) don't seem to really see what could potentially happen to society if we were to implement the measures being suggested.



> People can still try to find jobs if they lose them and governments can still try to implement policies to relieve people from economic strain.




It really is that simple. Lose your job or business? That's fine, get another one. Surely, the government is going to take care of us.


----------



## phisherman

YNWA14 said:


> Nobody thinks the economy just goes up forever, but there's a big difference between a correction and a total collapse. The same people telling others they don't understand how this virus is affecting people (again, a small percentage of the population) don't seem to really see what could potentially happen to society if we were to implement the measures being suggested.
> 
> 
> 
> It really is that simple. Lose your job or business? That's fine, get another one. Surely, the government is going to take care of us.




Better than telling seniors or people with something like asthma that we will just let them die.

And I'm well aware of the dangers of letting the government implement draconian measures to get this contained. It's our job as citizens of our country to not let them keep those measures after this situation is resolved.


----------



## Havre

Funny fact. We do let people die every day - before COVID-19. And we will every day after. Not sure why COVID-19 should be treated any differently.


----------



## Live in the Now

Because our hospitals aren’t equipped to face this many critically ill people, many of whom would not die if treated.


----------



## S E P H

phisherman said:


> citizens of our country to not let them keep those measures after this situation is resolved.



Said every dictatorship in the world at a time...



Live in the Now said:


> Because our hospitals aren’t equipped to face this many critically ill people, many of whom would not die if treated.



Pretty much, there is a strong deviation score that more people die when hospitals are overrun and why Lombardy has been faced with what it has the past week.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Like WW2, we could pivot and shift industry to fulfill supply shortfalls. Federal contracts for masks, gloves, ventilators, makeshift hospital conversions, etc etc. A full stimulus package of that.

Which would save lives and boost economic output (though nowhere near what it was),

Lol imagine that? Anyway by Wednesday this week we'll be back to "FAKE NEWS! THIS IS THE NEW COUP!" The cheerleading squad is already laying the groudnwork today. Tonight will be hours of Fox "well actually the doctors should stay in their lane and treat people! Don't let those socialists tell us not to do the economy!"

Unfortunately for us, more than the weak, this virus feeds on the dumb.


----------



## phisherman

Premier League players ready to revolt over behind-closed-doors plans


----------



## Havre

Not surprised. Still can't get my head around how it would actually work.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## robertmac43

spintheblackcircle said:


>





This is awesome to see, I appreciate all of the financial support athletes have given to people in need; cool to see them give back in ways that help the mental and social struggles going on as well!


----------



## phisherman




----------



## YNWA14

I think people would welcome the distraction from home. I certainly would.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## gary69

spintheblackcircle said:


>





So they can soon field at least a starting XI who have recovered from the virus and have immunity, thus they can safely complete the season.


----------



## SSF

We get it, LFC fans want the season completed at all costs, pandemic be damned. Really poor, selfish showing.


----------



## Prntscrn

SSF said:


> We get it, LFC fans want the season completed at all costs, pandemic be damned. Really poor, selfish showing.




Yeah, that's easy to say when your team is 30+ points behind. You put any team in Liverpool's situation and a big, loud part of the fanbase would be pissed. I'm not saying football means that much to everyone, but to a lot of people it does.


----------



## Cassano

Prntscrn said:


> Yeah, that's easy to say when your team is 30+ points behind. You put any team in Liverpool's situation and a big, loud part of the fanbase would be pissed. I'm not saying football means that much to everyone, but to a lot of people it does.



This is bigger than sport.


----------



## Prntscrn

Cassano said:


> This is bigger than sport.




That's why we're currently not playing. Doesn't mean people are willing to drop everything else they care for completely.


----------



## phisherman

gary69 said:


> So they can soon field at least a starting XI who have recovered from the virus and have immunity, thus they can safely complete the season.




There's nothing to suggest that anyone who had it is immune to it after.


----------



## gary69

phisherman said:


> There's nothing to suggest that anyone who had it is immune to it after.




If that would be the case, then no vaccine could be developed ever, either. 

It might end up being so, since there are no vaccines for other notorious viruses like HI or Sars. Though, the Chinese tests (with monkeys/chimpanzees) show an immunity for 4 months so far (Nov - March), and counting. Usually immunity for Coronavirus is 3-4 years until it mutates too much, maybe it's the same this time around.


----------



## YNWA14

SSF said:


> We get it, LFC fans want the season completed at all costs, pandemic be damned. Really poor, selfish showing.



Yep that’s it. You caught em.


----------



## Havre

Yes. One should never question the intention of Liverpool-fans - just any other fan that suggest or want to discuss any other solution than finishing the season. Obviously got nothing to do with double standards.

Equally obvious the Liverpool-fans on here will quickly point out that I am a Spursfan and it is because of that I write these things (even if I have clearly stated I think it obviously would be fairest if Liverpool got the chance to win the title one way or another).

All good fun.


----------



## YNWA14

Or we’ve already said many times we don’t care if the season is finished. But yes it’s Liverpool fans against the world (or at least that’s what most here would love to have as the narrative).


----------



## hatterson

I don’t care if the season is officially finished or not, but Liverpool won the title this year and that should be reflected in the official record books regardless of how the remainder of the season unfolds.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Selfishly, I would absolutely love to see the proposal I saw floating around where all teams camp out in the Midlands, World Cup style and play games behind closed doors to finish the season. The distraction from life is desperately needed, and I would gamble on every damn game for the hell of it. 

But in reality, we're not close to that yet. That kind of proposals is realistically going to steer medical (including testing) and law enforcement resources, that are already stretched thin, away from the people that need it most.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## PanniniClaus

spintheblackcircle said:


>




Using celebrities to send the message only works if they actually adhere to the message. Grealish and Walker should be fined a very large amount of money and that money used to help some people in need at this time. Truly pitiful behavior from this entitled pair of idiots.


----------



## robertmac43

Jeeze what an idiot....


----------



## spintheblackcircle

How about a salary cap?  

Revealed and explained: the 'terrible' state of Premier...

“As of last June, the clubs owed £1.6 billion in installments and had £700 million coming in. Some of this money is circulating within the division and some will be flowing downwards to the EFL, but there is a £900 million deficit. The concern is that financial problems in one league could spread throughout the industry just like the pandemic.”


----------



## Havre

I think running your business properly is better. We are not socialists like the Americans.


----------



## Stray Wasp

Havre said:


> I think running your business properly is better. We are not socialists like the Americans.




It's been said for years that a club at any level shouldn't spend more than 60% of its turnover if it wishes to maintain its financial health.

So many EPL clubs have ignored this orthodoxy, and in the Championship it is ignored almost as a matter of course. Manifestly, clubs couldn't have predicted a pandemic, but they've given themselves precious little leeway to deal with an unforeseen development of any kind.

Mind, a lot of our business people are _semi_-socialists - they believe passionately that the government should wherever possible pay for their outgoings and unsustainable debts. It's in the protection of their income where the rabid capitalism kicks in.


----------



## YEM

Stray Wasp said:


> Mind, a lot of our business people are _semi_-socialists - they believe passionately that the government should wherever possible pay for their outgoings and unsustainable debts. It's in the protection of their income where the rabid capitalism kicks in.



yes
"privatize the profits, socialize the losses"


----------



## JeffreyLFC

If you have sometime I would highly suggest any football fan to watch the documentary on Sadio Mane.

The name of the documentary: *Made in Senegal 
*
Very touching and you can feel the immense pressure on the players when they play for their national team. It is incredible how many potential superstar football players are unable to play in proper conditions and are never discovered and developed properly.

And that goal from Algeria.. wtf was the goaltender doing there? It is the biggest game of his life and he just does not move for like 4 secs to see the ball go over him. I get it there is a slight possibly he cannot reach it on time but for f*** sake try something.


----------



## YNWA14

Where did you watch it? I couldn’t find it here.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

YNWA14 said:


> Where did you watch it? I couldn’t find it here.



I watched on youtube but it was removed...

I know Rakuten TV has it for free.

How to watch the Sadio Mané: Made in Senegal documentary - fans can tune in for free with Rakuten TV!


----------



## Cassano

Cesc Fabregas reveals Xabi Alonso 'begged' to join Arsenal but club fluffed deal | Metro News

Xabi Alonso missed out on three illustrious FA Cups.


----------



## Cassano

Give that Chelsea admin a raise.


----------



## YNWA14

Seems kind of petty and dickish in that context tbh.


----------



## Prntscrn

YNWA14 said:


> Seems kind of petty and dickish in that context tbh.




They know it hurts, but so does this  The difference is it wouldn't have been a thing to us if Milan went on to win it


----------



## YNWA14

I mean it doesn’t really hurt given where Liverpool are and where Chelsea are. It was a chain started by Burnley and Chelsea‘s Twitter just kind of ruined it to be petty. The Salah goal was much better anyway though Hendo scored a beauty against Chelsea too that could have been a nice one.


----------



## Cassano




----------



## John Price

This Is Anfield: Liverpool superfan lives in shrine to Reds complete with 'You'll Never Walk Alone' gate
*This Is Anfield: Liverpool superfan lives in shrine to Reds complete with 'You'll Never Walk Alone' gate*


----------



## S E P H

Roman Fell said:


> This Is Anfield: Liverpool superfan lives in shrine to Reds complete with 'You'll Never Walk Alone' gate
> *This Is Anfield: Liverpool superfan lives in shrine to Reds complete with 'You'll Never Walk Alone' gate*



I wonder if he has a Gerrard slip as part of his collection as well.


----------



## Jussi

Cassano said:


> Give that Chelsea admin a raise.





You love to see that.


----------



## Havre

Stray Wasp said:


> It's been said for years that a club at any level shouldn't spend more than 60% of its turnover if it wishes to maintain its financial health.
> 
> So many EPL clubs have ignored this orthodoxy, and in the Championship it is ignored almost as a matter of course. Manifestly, clubs couldn't have predicted a pandemic, but they've given themselves precious little leeway to deal with an unforeseen development of any kind.
> 
> Mind, a lot of our business people are _semi_-socialists - they believe passionately that the government should wherever possible pay for their outgoings and unsustainable debts. It's in the protection of their income where the rabid capitalism kicks in.




Exactly.

I deal with "predictions" professionally and it is always funny to me discussing with CFOs about some agency or whatever that is forecasting some future development. Even when I show them how wrong these forecasts have been historically they will come back 3 months later to ask for a plan based on the same forecasts. It really is communist mid level manager 101. Cover your a¤¤ with some external source and when the s¤¤¤ hits the fan you can refer back to something else.

Simplified the world can go three ways, up - the same - down. So every football club should evaluate what happens in all those scenarios. It could be a pandemic, a war, or whatever so-called unknown known. Knowing what exactly causes a downturn is not really that important, but that is where the focus is, knowing how robust you are when it happens however is extremely important - that often becomes just something "abstract".

And what do you do if you run a football club? I don't know how many times I have heard the phrase "Levy isn't investing enough". So unless you are living hand to mouth you are somehow not "ambitious" or something equally silly. Having reserves as a football club is almost considered a sin (and that I believe is universal and not specific for Spurs).

I wish I was a communist mid level manager in charge of European football. I would have forced every owner, director etc. at football clubs to read Nassim Taleb. Black swans happen so make sure to make yourself anti-fragile. And not a single football club would have been rescued. If you go bankrupt you are bankrupt.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## Jersey Fresh

All we needed was some Saudi sugar daddies to join the fun. Fantastic.


----------



## John Price




----------



## VLK

It's quite surprising that even though these big soccer-teams are giants they seem to have feet of clay. A short pause in activity sends them on the brink.

Unfortunately they are institutions and therefore too big to fail and fall down. Or can you imagine some Real Madrid or Manchester United actually going bust?


----------



## JeffreyLFC

VLK said:


> It's quite surprising that even though these big soccer-teams are giants they seem to have feet of clay. A short pause in activity sends them on the brink.
> 
> Unfortunately they are institutions and therefore too big to fail and fall down. Or can you imagine some Real Madrid or Manchester United actually going bust?



They will never go bust. I actually think Real Madrid and Manchester United are even stronger during this crisis because of their financial strenght. The clubs in danger are teams paying well above their mean.


----------



## Stray Wasp

I think it's only a slight exaggeration to say the Spanish government would prop up Real Madrid supposing they had to close every hospital in the country to do it.


----------



## Ceremony

VLK said:


> It's quite surprising that even though these big soccer-teams are giants they seem to have feet of clay. A short pause in activity sends them on the brink.
> 
> Unfortunately they are institutions and therefore too big to fail and fall down. Or can you imagine some Real Madrid or Manchester United actually going bust?



Administration and liquidation of The Rangers Football Club plc - Wikipedia


----------



## Cassano

Ceremony said:


> Administration and liquidation of The Rangers Football Club plc - Wikipedia



Damn, must've been tough to have it happen against your club.


----------



## VLK

When the lockdown is lifted people are not going to rush into football-matches as the first thing to do. That is just not important in these circumstances especially when a lot of people will not have a job to go back to.


----------



## YNWA14

VLK said:


> When the lockdown is lifted people are not going to rush into football-matches as the first thing to do. That is just not important in these circumstances especially when a lot of people will not have a job to go back to.



I think you underestimate how much people care about sport, and how much it is used as an escape.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

YNWA14 said:


> I think you underestimate how much people care about sport, and how much it is used as an escape.



Yes but there be will an impact at the beginning. I could definitely see half empty stadiums in the first few games after the lockdown.


----------



## SJSharks72

YNWA14 said:


> I think you underestimate how much people care about sport, and how much it is used as an escape.



Yeah but people will still be scared about being in a stadium with thousands of people.


----------



## Stray Wasp

VLK said:


> When the lockdown is lifted people are not going to rush into football-matches as the first thing to do. That is just not important in these circumstances especially when a lot of people will not have a job to go back to.




Possibly - although if, as I suspect is likely, the population leads the government out of lockdown rather than the reverse, people may well flock to the reassuring spectacle of football games rather than dwell on their post-money future.

And YNWA14's point about escape will be particularly worth considering for a society recovering from the grand well-intentioned house arrest experiment of 2020. We're not just talking a mental escape here - but sheer physical escape from indoors. Particularly if games resume when the sun is shining, and you can drink away from the people you've been nigh on living on top of for weeks / months / years (delete according to just how far into the future the nation pursues its pathological fear of dying at the hands of this particular disease, as though it were the only cause of human demise in existence).


----------



## The Abusement Park

SJSharks39 said:


> Yeah but people will still be scared about being in a stadium with thousands of people.



I mean I don't think that people will be that scared. I mean 70,000 people were at the UCL game in Liverpool right before the lockdown started. Underground bars with hundreds of people attending have been shutdown during the peak of this virus. Once people are allowed to go to sports games they absolutely will.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Delete.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

The Abusement Park said:


> I mean I don't think that people will be that scared. I mean 70,000 people were at the UCL game in Liverpool right before the lockdown started. Underground bars with hundreds of people attending have been shutdown during the peak of this virus. *Once people are allowed to go to sports games they absolutely will.*



Okay, but when do you think that is? They're already talking about prohibiting mass sporting events until _Fall 2021_ in some States...

There's almost certainly going to be a second wave of this, how sever is anyone's guess.


----------



## phisherman




----------



## Geordie Bruin

phisherman said:


>





Got to make up that money after being called out for furloughing the non playing staff. 

Billionaires asking Millionaires to cut their wage while thousands of people are dying and millions are in financial ruin. Not a good look.


----------



## East Coast Bias

The Abusement Park said:


> I mean I don't think that people will be that scared. I mean 70,000 people were at the UCL game in Liverpool right before the lockdown started. Underground bars with hundreds of people attending have been shutdown during the peak of this virus. Once people are allowed to go to sports games they absolutely will.




Of course some people will. There's always going to be a part of the population that's so deluded nothing can stop them. But the Liverpool UCL match was in an entirely different world. On March 12, the UK had barely been hit. They had something like 150 cases. They now have over 100k cases with over 15k deaths. 

We've seen this around the world where populations don't take this seriously until it hits home. It's the same in the US. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone in metro NY who doesn't see this as anything but a horror. But in upstate NY, they're driving the capital in Albany to protest tyranny like idiots. so yeah, you'll always have some people who are too carefree or straight dumb to realize the risk. But you're greatly underestimating the impact of people being personally impacted and what that does to their thinking. Additionally - people talk shit on the internet. Posting nonsense on social media and actually sitting in a packed stadium are 2 very different things.

It really doesn't matter what fans think though. I think the path forward is finishing seasons in empty arenas. I can't speak for Europe, but it's going to be a long, long time until US stadiums are packed. One full stadium could offset months of lock downs and completely wreck a local healthcare system.


----------



## Jussi

The Abusement Park said:


> I mean I don't think that people will be that scared.* I mean 70,000 people were at the UCL game in Liverpool* right before the lockdown started. Underground bars with hundreds of people attending have been shutdown during the peak of this virus. Once people are allowed to go to sports games they absolutely will.




Impressive considering Anfield capacity is only 53 394... Maybe you mixed Old Trafford's capacity?


----------



## YNWA14

East Coast Bias said:


> Of course some people will. There's always going to be a part of the population that's so deluded nothing can stop them. But the Liverpool UCL match was in an entirely different world. On March 12, the UK had barely been hit. They had something like 150 cases. They now have over 100k cases with over 15k deaths.
> 
> We've seen this around the world where populations don't take this seriously until it hits home. It's the same in the US. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone in metro NY who doesn't see this as anything but a horror. But in upstate NY, they're driving the capital in Albany to protest tyranny like idiots. so yeah, you'll always have some people who are too carefree or straight dumb to realize the risk. But you're greatly underestimating the impact of people being personally impacted and what that does to their thinking. Additionally - people talk shit on the internet. Posting nonsense on social media and actually sitting in a packed stadium are 2 very different things.
> 
> It really doesn't matter what fans think though. I think the path forward is finishing seasons in empty arenas. I can't speak for Europe, but it's going to be a long, long time until US stadiums are packed. One full stadium could offset months of lock downs and completely wreck a local healthcare system.



They reopened a beach in Florida and it took 30 minutes to be completely packed in the height of COVID.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Did you read ECB's first two sentences? A responsible government doesn't even think of opening those beaches on the day when the state reported its highest number of cases, but Florida is being run by baboons right now. And on its best day, Floridians have a...special reputation. Its irresponsible and a lot of people might rethink that choice to jump on those beaches when their curve is extended while other states are gradually reopening. 

Not to mention, comparing a packed football stadium with 60k people side by side to a couple hundred people max on an open beach is pretty ridiculous.


----------



## SJSharks72

YNWA14 said:


> They reopened a beach in Florida and it took 30 minutes to be completely packed in the height of COVID.



Yeah but Florida is a different animal than anywhere. Also beaches are free.


----------



## YNWA14

The point is that you guys underestimate the fact that COVID is still only tragically affecting such a small portion of the population that people care more about their personal freedoms and the fact that they’re being cooped up to protect the vast minority — and that’s the way that they look at it. If they were allowing people into stadiums right now they would still be at max capacity. The vast majority of people will not even know someone or of someone that has had a serious case of COVID-19. The fact that most people still break social distancing and lockdown rules whenever they feel like it and the only reason that isolation is even widespread is under the threat of fine or jail should tell you enough about how the majority feel about this and how quickly most people will be happy (not scared) to go back to their regular activities.


----------



## East Coast Bias

YNWA14 said:


> The point is that you guys underestimate the fact that COVID is still only tragically affecting such a small portion of the population that people care more about their personal freedoms and the fact that they’re being cooped up to protect the vast minority — and that’s the way that they look at it. If they were allowing people into stadiums right now they would still be at max capacity. The vast majority of people will not even know someone or of someone that has had a serious case of COVID-19. The fact that most people still break social distancing and lockdown rules whenever they feel like it and the only reason that isolation is even widespread is under the threat of fine or jail should tell you enough about how the majority feel about this and how quickly most people will be happy (not scared) to go back to their regular activities.





I don’t disagree with you in that People are generally stupid. And above all, criminally selfish. But I think it will vary on a lot of things- including the impact locally and the culture. 

my point still stands that using the CL match at Anfield on March 12th as an example of anything is stupid. Same with ultras standing outside stadiums in France in early March. 

rvery country, state or locality that seems to thumb their nose at this gets burned incredibly bad. We’ll see how it works out.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

What you are clearly having a hard time understanding is that the small(er) percentage of people affected by the virus is precisely BECAUSE of the stay at home mitigation practices in place. If you want to see cases skyrocket and frontline medical workers besieged and the greater populace die at even greater rates, by all means ease the measures.

The "personal freedoms" stuff is just right-wing talk radio garbage that I don't particularly have interest in engaging in. Just pure selfishness, as ECB pointed out.


----------



## YNWA14

East Coast Bias said:


> I don’t disagree with you in that People are generally stupid. And above all, criminally selfish. But I think it will vary on a lot of things- including the impact locally and the culture.
> 
> my point still stands that using the CL match at Anfield on March 12th as an example of anything is stupid. Same with ultras standing outside stadiums in France in early March.
> 
> rvery country, state or locality that seems to thumb their nose at this gets burned incredibly bad. We’ll see how it works out.




I think 'burned incredibly bad' is an overstatement and really depends on your perspective. Many would argue the lockdown itself is affecting way more people and causing many more issues for people, and for a long time to come. There have been roughly 160,000 COVID-19 related deaths and we have a population of about 7.6 billion. You're looking at something like 0.002% of the population that have died, and again, most of those are of a demographic where people can rationalize as to why it would happen. There are way bigger issues in the world, and that have affected and will continue to affect the world, that have been around for a very long time.

You guys talk about selfishness a lot but there's so much more to this than just calling one group or another selfish because they believe different things.



Jersey Fresh said:


> What you are clearly having a hard time understanding is that the small(er) percentage of people affected by the virus is precisely BECAUSE of the stay at home mitigation practices in place. If you want to see cases skyrocket and frontline medical workers besieged and the greater populace die at even greater rates, by all means ease the measures.
> 
> The "personal freedoms" stuff is just right-wing talk radio garbage that I don't particularly have interest in engaging in. Just pure selfishness, as ECB pointed out.




I have a hard time understanding something because the concepts of general society are over your head? What you don't get, and are clearly incapable of doing, is that I'm having an objective conversation not related to my own personal opinion or actions. I know people affected on both sides of the issue and can see why people feel the way they do on both sides. The close mindedness on your part is not overly surprising and is shockingly common in supposed "leftist" approaches. This isn't a black and white situation as there are far reaching impacts regardless of the course of action.


----------



## East Coast Bias

I don’t necessarily disagree with the concept that you can’t lockdown forever. Saying we need to get back to some level of functioning society Bc people will starve and be broke isn’t wrong. But it’s not binary. And that’s the issue. Our choices aren’t stay locked down or attend a packed Anfield. We are going to get back to life slowly. Allowing 70k people in a stadium any time soon is pure stupidity. Regardless of whether you’re able to get 70k people to go or not. 

the major problem is that societies, be it local or national, that have had success re-opening had complex plans In place. The US nor the UK seem to have that at this stage. And that’s the issue.


----------



## YNWA14

East Coast Bias said:


> I don’t necessarily disagree with the concept that you can’t lockdown forever. Saying we need to get back to some level of functioning society Bc people will starve and be broke isn’t wrong. But it’s not binary. And that’s the issue. Our choices aren’t stay locked down or attend a packed Anfield. We are going to get back to life slowly. Allowing 70k people in a stadium any time soon is pure stupidity. Regardless of whether you’re able to get 70k people to go or not.
> 
> the major problem is that societies, be it local or national, that have had success re-opening had complex plans In place. The US nor the UK seem to have that at this stage. And that’s the issue.



I don't disagree.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Sure, I don't "understand the concepts of general society". What a hilariously meaningless allegation. Your problem is in whatever right-wing ecosystem you get your news, you've been led to believe that a majority thinks like you do ("personal freedoms!"), when in fact it's exactly the opposite based on national polling, certainly in the US and I'd imagine in Canada as well. It's not a hard concept - if you try to open up the economy when the virus is still rippling through the community, you just end up making both situations worse. How well do you think businesses will operate when employees start getting sick left and right? It's such common sense stuff, that I can't even wrap my head around why it's so hard for some people to understand. If having the #1 goal of minimizing people dying is a "leftist" approach, then so be it.

Nobody's calling it a black and white situation, but I know strawmanning like that is a popular tactic in your circles (just like talking about "way bigger issues in the world" in the middle of a global pandemic). If you cite car accident deaths next, you'll hit the boomer bingo. You and a lot of others are still fixated on asking when this will be over, when the real question is what the new normal will look like when it is, and how long it will take to get there.

And what's really amazing is you pointing to the "limited" mortality rates directly related to mitigation procedures as an argument that they aren't needed. Like that's some through the looking glass stuff. Crazy.


----------



## Stray Wasp

East Coast Bias said:


> the major problem is that societies, be it local or national, that have had success re-opening had complex plans In place. The US nor the UK seem to have that at this stage. And that’s the issue.




The UK government will never have a complex plan for exiting lockdown, just as it hasn't had a complex plan at any stage up to now.

The public isn't interested in complexity either - it is fuelled by emotion (which is why the lockdown enjoys widespread support in opinion polls, yet every time I go out I see indications of a casual indifference to basic principles of social distancing from an overwhelming majority of people I encounter - to say nothing of their indifference to basic principles of good health since time immemorial. When a pollster asks you if you support the lockdown, one's antenna switches on: one understands the need to present oneself to the pollster as a Good Person. It's only the effort of a few moments, after all. Mouth a platitude about how marvellous the NHS is - another brief, painless recital into which the population is well-drilled- and the litany is completed. For a couple or a pair of friends to walk in single file to preserve a 2m space between themselves and other people on the pavement, by contrast, requires thinking of other people consistently, and that's far too much effort. In the same spirit, people will encroach on your space because they veer off a straight course from the distraction of looking at their phones - because what is curbing a pandemic in comparison to the Pavlovian urge to respond to a notification?)

The government is fuelled by the desire to avoid having to make any decision at all. Fundamentally, though, it still believes above all in herd immunity - it came out earlier in the week they are still allowing 15,000 people to fly into the country daily without carrying out health checks. At least two of the five tests announced this week that must be met in order to exit lockdown are usefully vague.

Public panic brought about the beginnings of a lockdown, which opened a crack for the government to formalise the policy when the projections indicated a death toll so big even the Prime Minister's 'Boris' act couldn't distract from it. A peak in the public's fear of the virus / boredom is what the government is seeking signs of for them to be able safely to call the lockdown off. (I mean 'safely' from a political point of view, you understand).

And if NUFC is taken over by the Saudis - long time 'allies' of the UK - you can bet they'll lobby for football to resume as quickly as possible.


----------



## YNWA14

Jersey Fresh said:


> Sure, I don't "understand the concepts of general society". What a hilariously meaningless allegation. Your problem is in whatever right-wing ecosystem you get your news, you've been led to believe that a majority thinks like you do ("personal freedoms!"), when in fact it's exactly the opposite based on national polling, certainly in the US and I'd imagine in Canada as well. It's not a hard concept - if you try to open up the economy when the virus is still rippling through the community, you just end up making both situations worse. How well do you think businesses will operate when employees start getting sick left and right? It's such common sense stuff, that I can't even wrap my head around why it's so hard for some people to understand. If having the #1 goal of minimizing people dying is a "leftist" approach, then so be it.




National polling is your source as opposed to this imaginary "right wing media" I follow, or some circle I'm just supposed to be a part of? I get the impression that you don't actually know a lot of people outside of the internet. That's fine, but your reality is a bit warped there. The thing is with widespread testing they're finding more and more people that get it and aren't sick at all, again, the vast majority of people that get COVID-19 have mild to no symptoms. 4% of cases require hospitalization or are considered 'critical'. This isn't something that would be crippling the economy if it were running as normal, or with some kind of protective measures in place.



> Nobody's calling it a black and white situation, but I know strawmanning like that is a popular tactic in your circles (just like talking about "way bigger issues in the world" in the middle of a global pandemic). If you cite car accident deaths next, you'll hit the boomer bingo. You and a lot of others are still fixated on asking when this will be over, when the real question is what the new normal will look like when it is, and how long it will take to get there.




Ah, right, 'boomer'. This'll be my last response to you; you can get back to 4chan and avocado toast, while being outraged about everything and continuing to do absolutely nothing.



> And what's really amazing is you pointing to the "limited" mortality rates directly related to mitigation procedures as an argument that they aren't needed. Like that's some through the looking glass stuff. Crazy.




So the mortality rate has already been affected by social distancing measures that basically just came into effect, according to everyone isn't being done properly, that most people are ignoring or not following so they've actually had to legislate fines, jail time, etc. and banning of even use of greenspace while respecting social distancing limits. So what is it the governments are completely incompetent and not doing enough or they're already turning the tide with last ditch measures and 0 preparation? Don't answer that, it's cool, you know what's best I'm a 'boomer' so let's just leave it at that. The best part is yammering on about straw men while citing arguments I've never made (I'll let you figure that out). The world is doomed if it opens up again soon, so let's just all hope it doesn't and maybe we can keep this going until a vaccine is ready, what could go wrong?


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Lol Jesus, okay...



YNWA14 said:


> National polling is your source as opposed to this imaginary "right wing media" I follow, or some circle I'm just supposed to be a part of? I get the impression that you don't actually know a lot of people outside of the internet. That's fine, but your reality is a bit warped there. The thing is with widespread testing they're finding more and more people that get it and aren't sick at all, again, the vast majority of people that get COVID-19 have mild to no symptoms. 4% of cases require hospitalization or are considered 'critical'. This isn't something that would be crippling the economy if it were running as normal, or with some kind of protective measures in place.



National polling isn't the only source, but it certainly helps when talking about public sentiment. Especially when you're arguing against...what exactly? Shrieking about the economy and whining about "personal freedoms"? Which one do you believe in more, out of curiosity? Because you've cited both and they have nothing to do with one another.

Unsurprisingly, you're full of shit - the U.S. has a 5% fatality rate right now and worldwide it's even higher (I'll let you figure out how to back into hospitalization figures). I'm assuming you've seen footage of New York these last few weeks, right? New York is weeks ahead of some cities in the U.S. and nearly all of them have implemented Stay at Home orders. Now picture, all of these States lifting those orders before the virus has run through the population. I'm just going to have to assume that painted the scene for you, but it's been a slog up until this point, so I won't hold my breath.

Again, it's VERY simple and somehow I think you're STILL not getting it - those protective measures you're talking about...are already happening. What possible protective measures do think are going to be successful with a virus this communicable? You think your cloth mask is going to save you? It WILL spread through the population and guess where you'll end up, big guy? That's right, exactly where you are right now! We get it, shutting down the economy is awful and everyone would love to be "back to normal" right now. But either you deal with the health crisis and then the economy, or you ruin both worse (and for longer). Literally no one is saying this needs to, or should, last forever.



YNWA14 said:


> Ah, right, 'boomer'. This'll be my last response to you; you can get back to 4chan and avocado toast, while being outraged about everything and continuing to do absolutely nothing.



I mean, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

So far you've spouted off the Fox News best hits of: "personal freedoms", "actually the _lockdown_ is causing more issues for people" (you know, more than the virus killing people...), the people who are dying "...most of those are of a demographic where people can rationalize as to why it would happen", and "there are way bigger issues in the world, and that have affected and will continue to affect the world, that have been around for a very long time". The only bigger giveaway would have been if you said it's just another flu and tried to peddle hydroxychloroquine.

So, am I right? (though that tired little quip about avocado toast and "being outraged about everything" kind of answered the question for you really...)



YNWA14 said:


> So the mortality rate has already been affected by social distancing measures that basically just came into effect, according to everyone isn't being done properly, that most people are ignoring or not following so they've actually had to legislate fines, jail time, etc. and banning of even use of greenspace while respecting social distancing limits. So what is it the governments are completely incompetent and not doing enough or they're already turning the tide with last ditch measures and 0 preparation? Don't answer that, it's cool, you know what's best I'm a 'boomer' so let's just leave it at that. The best part is yammering on about straw men while citing arguments I've never made (I'll let you figure that out). The world is doomed if it opens up again soon, so let's just all hope it doesn't and maybe we can keep this going until a vaccine is ready, what could go wrong?



I don't know where the hell you got this idea that "most people are ignoring or not following" the stay at home guidelines. I have no idea where you live (I'm going to guess Alberta), but in NYC the City has come to a STANDSTILL. Sure, some parks were a problem early on and you still get spotty social distancing when it's nice out, but just about everyone is doing their part. And that's how you have to deal with a pandemic like this...as a collective. Frankly, I find your little whine about your personal freedoms and having to protect the "vast minority" (wrong, but extremely telling of your societal outlook) pretty pathetic. If you continually flout the guidelines designed to keep less fortunate, immuno-compromised, or older people safe, then you're an asshole and you deserve to be fined or jailed.

Yes, many governments are absolutely turning the tide - and that's why this is exactly the WRONG time to ease the guidelines. If you do that, all you're doing is erasing all the gains you've made over the last two months. Seriously...what. do. you. not. understand? We get it, "but the economy!". It's pretty clear what needs to come first based on A) public health experts and economists alike, and B) basic human decency.

Your last sentence is pretty telling of just how little you've actually managed to comprehend of what I'm saying. Honestly, it's SAD(!).



Stray Wasp said:


> The UK government will never have a complex plan for exiting lockdown, just as it hasn't had a complex plan at any stage up to now.
> 
> The public isn't interested in complexity either - it is fuelled by emotion (which is why the lockdown enjoys widespread support in opinion polls, yet every time I go out I see indications of a casual indifference to basic principles of social distancing from an overwhelming majority of people I encounter - to say nothing of their indifference to basic principles of good health since time immemorial. When a pollster asks you if you support the lockdown, one's antenna switches on: one understands the need to present oneself to the pollster as a Good Person. It's only the effort of a few moments, after all. Mouth a platitude about how marvellous the NHS is - another brief, painless recital into which the population is well-drilled- and the litany is completed. For a couple or a pair of friends to walk in single file to preserve a 2m space between themselves and other people on the pavement, by contrast, requires thinking of other people consistently, and that's far too much effort. In the same spirit, people will encroach on your space because they veer off a straight course from the distraction of looking at their phones - because what is curbing a pandemic in comparison to the Pavlovian urge to respond to a notification?)
> 
> The government is fuelled by the desire to avoid having to make any decision at all. Fundamentally, though, it still believes above all in herd immunity - it came out earlier in the week they are still allowing 15,000 people to fly into the country daily without carrying out health checks. At least two of the five tests announced this week that must be met in order to exit lockdown are usefully vague.
> 
> Public panic brought about the beginnings of a lockdown, which opened a crack for the government to formalise the policy when the projections indicated a death toll so big even the Prime Minister's 'Boris' act couldn't distract from it. A peak in the public's fear of the virus / boredom is what the government is seeking signs of for them to be able safely to call the lockdown off. (I mean 'safely' from a political point of view, you understand).
> 
> And if NUFC is taken over by the Saudis - long time 'allies' of the UK - you can bet they'll lobby for football to resume as quickly as possible.



I wouldn't dare defend Boris Johnson, but this take is too cynical, even for me. I'd hope even he as the good sense to listen to his health experts.


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## YNWA14

I shouldn’t have to respond again but since you’re an idiot and can’t read I’ll help you. I’m social distancing, I’m not complaining about any of the measures and I don’t think there should be any rush to stop any measures in place before it’s safe. If you can provide one example where I’ve done any of the things you’ve been arguing against I’ll happily admit to being wrong (hint, you won’t). Though I do find it quaint how people like you throw around boomer not realizing how incredibly ironic it is for you to do so. Can you please go back to 4chan now? Cheers.


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