# U.S. National Team Thread VI #fireJurgen



## Cody Webster

#fireJurgen


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## Ugmo

I've been advocating his firing for a long time, but I don't see it. I think he doesn't get fired unless we get off to a horrible start to World Cup qualifying.


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## Live in the Now

Shouldn't be fired after that. Everything went to plan, and we got beaten by a worldie. 

Maybe he should have been fired before, but that was before.


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## varsaku

Ugmo said:


> I've been advocating his firing for a long time, but I don't see it. I think he doesn't get fired unless we get off to a horrible start to World Cup qualifying.




I think they got him to help build the program for the future. They have been able to convince a lot of dual internationals to play for the United States.


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## bluesfan94

To plan? We were dominated and could rarely keep possession.


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## Brock Anton

varsaku said:


> I think they got him to help build the program for the future. They have been able to convince a lot of dual internationals to play for the United Stated.




That's great, and he can still do that without being the head coach. But of course, the problem is TC Klinsmann seemingly can't pick a competent coach either (see Porter, Caleb and Herzog, Andi with the U-23's). 

Regardless, if somehow Klinsmann does get fired, he's going to leave both roles.


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## JunglePete

He played a Jermaine Jones who returned from a groin injury as a left midfielder for 120 minutes ! Even Klopas wouldn't have done something that idiotic. Dempsey offered nothing.

Klinsmann is a horrible manager ; Donovan and Eddie Johnson agreed.


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## xavi4life

Klinsmann isn't the problem. The US system is the problem. The best athletes in the country play other, more lucrative sports, he's done well considering he's got very little talent to work with.

When the US decides to really focus on training technique, passing and tactics for the younger generations it will make a difference.

Congrats to Mexico, try not to burn down Pasadena.


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## Ugmo

Live in the Now said:


> Shouldn't be fired after that. Everything went to plan, and we got beaten by a worldie.
> 
> Maybe he should have been fired before, but that was before.




Was the plan to let Mexico have a power play for the entire second half? 



varsaku said:


> I think they got him to help build the program for the future. They have been able to convince a lot of dual internationals to play for the United Stated.




I don't know that winning over dual nationals is all that sustainable. He's good at it (probably the only thing I like about him), but I'd prefer a guy who is able to improve the domestic development program as well as coach the senior team well, and I don't see the evidence that he's good at either of those things.


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## Ugmo

xavi4life said:


> Klinsmann isn't the problem. The US system is the problem. The best athletes in the country play other, more lucrative sports, he's done well considering he's got very little talent to work with.
> 
> When the US decides to really focus on training technique, passing and tactics for the younger generations it will make a difference.




Problem with this argument is that every one of Klinsmann's predecessors have at least matched his performance (Bruce Arena surpassed it), and with considerably less celebrity and far lower salaries (as well as a lower overall level of skill by American players). Sure, our players aren't world-beaters, but that doesn't mean Klinsmann is a good coach. Our players' abilities can be maximized with a good coach, and that ain't Klinsmann.


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## xavi4life

Can't make chicken soup out of chicken ****...


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## Live in the Now

Ugmo said:


> Was the plan to let Mexico have a power play for the entire second half?




Judging by the team selection, it wouldn't be surprising if the plan was to play a low block and let Mexico be as wasteful as they generally were. It also negated Mexico's ability to make quick, incisive runs, and dulled their creativity.

Anyway, as already mentioned here, I don't think we have many good players, and in terms of how this team compares to ones in the more distant past, it's worse. I don't like Klinsmann as a coach, and I do think he's part of the problem because he picks the wrong teams, but we have a talent deficiency right now.


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## xavi4life

Ugmo said:


> Problem with this argument is that every one of Klinsmann's predecessors have at least matched his performance (Bruce Arena surpassed it), and with considerably less celebrity and far lower salaries. Sure, our players aren't world-beaters, but that doesn't mean Klinsmann is a good coach. Our players' abilities can be maximized with a good coach, and that ain't Klinsmann.





Questionable coaching? Sure, I can agree with that. All I'm saying is that hiring "X" isn't going to change the team that much. It's getting better every generation.


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## Ugmo

xavi4life said:


> Questionable coaching? Sure, I can agree with that. All I'm saying is that hiring "X" isn't going to change the team that much. It's getting better every generation.




That's true... there is no magic bullet coach that will turn us into Argentina. I'm just worried that we're actually regressing under Klinsmann (apart from the fact that he's attracted some quality dual nationals).


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## xavi4life

Ugmo said:


> That's true... there is no magic bullet coach that will turn us into Argentina. I'm just worried that we're actually regressing under Klinsmann (apart from the fact that he's attracted some quality dual nationals).




IDK, I know we need to stop playing Beasley and Jones and probably Dempsey. They're too old now.


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## AdmiralsFan24

Live in the Now said:


> Shouldn't be fired after that. Everything went to plan, and we got beaten by a worldie.
> 
> Maybe he should have been fired before, but that was before.




Everything went to plan? What were the possession numbers? Like 70/30 Mexico?

Edit: Just looked it up. 63/37 Mexico and the U.S. for the most part couldn't do a damn thing.


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## Brock Anton

xavi4life said:


> IDK, I know we need to stop playing Beasley and Jones and probably Dempsey. They're too old now.




Yes they are, but really, we've got no real replacements.. especially for Dempsey (or at least replacements that Jurgen trusts). 

As for tonight, I had no problem with Beasley in a game like this. With Klinsmann preferring Fabian Johnson at RB, Beasley was the most logical option at LB (especially with Garza on the shelf). 

Jones, I felt bad for tonight. He ran his ass off, but was unfortunately played out of position and all three Mexico goals came from his side. He was clearly gassed at around the 55-60' mark and for some reason he's forced to stay out there.... and you saw what happens when he's tired, he commits dumb fouls (MEX's third goal came off a Jones foul). 

Dempsey? He was utter dog piss tonight. Arguably the worst game I've EVER seen him play. No reason for him to have gone 120', Jozy and Zardes were at least attempting to get in dangerous positions. Deuce was just interested in taking on 3-4 defenders and ignoring everyone else.


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## vwg*

Klinnsman is horrible. Sure, you're not going to turn into Argentina but you can do better than him for manager. The team is definitely regressing.


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## AdmiralsFan24

xavi4life said:


> IDK, I know we need to stop playing Beasley and Jones and probably Dempsey. They're too old now.




I thought Jones was one of the better players tonight. Not that that's saying much. Dempsey was slow and not doing much of anything when the ball was in an attacking area but that wasn't very often.


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## njdevscup30

Beasley was terrible all game. Mexico played the ball on his side all game with no trouble. It was obvious they were targeting that side. Plus Besler getting beat badly a few times including that 1st goal and our whole left side defense was a disaster all game.

We have no possession midfield. Beckerman is useless other than breaking up play once in a while. Jones is still pretty good but clearly nursing an injury and could not make a big impact. I thought the obvious 3rd sub should have been Danny Williams on for Jones/Beckerman (Even before the 2nd goal...so happy Wondo didn't come on). Fabian Johnson must've been injured because that Evans sub made no sense.

Nothing seems to make sense these days. We know Klinsman hates Donovan..but Klinsman also seems to hate Juan Agudelo who is by far our most creative striker. Bewilders me how he continues to get no shot, even when scoring for his club team and scoring in cameo appearences for the USMNT when he does play. 

I think Klinsman plays his favorites, but when his job is finally on the line, plays a "safe lineup" as close as he could come to the World Cup lineup so it's not his fault when we lose. I don't know....

He's done some good things for us though... So I'm not sure if I'd fire him, but he frustrates me to no end. I'm biased because I still haven't forgiven him for leaving Donovan off the World Cup roster, so take what I say with a grain of salt.


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## vwg*

njdevscup30 said:


> Beasley was terrible all game. Mexico played the ball on his side all game with no trouble. It was obvious they were targeting that side. Plus Besler getting beat badly a few times including that 1st goal and our whole left side defense was a disaster all game.
> 
> We have no possession midfield. Beckerman is useless other than breaking up play once in a while. Jones is still pretty good but clearly nursing an injury and could not make a big impact. I thought the obvious 3rd sub should have been Danny Williams on for Jones/Beckerman (Even before the 2nd goal...so happy Wondo didn't come on). Fabian Johnson must've been injured because that Evans sub made no sense.
> 
> Nothing seems to make sense these days. We know Klinsman hates Donovan..but Klinsman also seems to hate Juan Agudelo who is by far our most creative striker. Bewilders me how he continues to get no shot, even when scoring for his club team and scoring in cameo appearences for the USMNT when he does play.
> 
> I think Klinsman plays his favorites, but when his job is finally on the line, plays a "safe lineup" as close as he could come to the World Cup lineup so it's not his fault when we lose. I don't know....
> 
> He's done some good things for us though... So I'm not sure if I'd fire him, but he frustrates me to no end. I'm biased because I still haven't forgiven him for leaving Donovan off the World Cup roster, so take what I say with a grain of salt.



A manager who lets his grudges get in the way of selecting the best players is a bad manager. He should be fired for his stubbornness alone.


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## kingsboy11

There are a lot of things that Klinnsmann has done in his tenure that I like. I like how he challenges his players to strive to be better. I want this team to not be satisfied with only Gold cup victories. I like how he has been attracting dual-citizenship players. I like how he has won games in which we have never won before (i.e. win against Mexico in Azteca). 

But at the end of the day, results matter. As Brock mentioned in the other thread, he has only met 2 of his goals. Winning the 2013 Gold Cup and getting out of the Group of Death. But we didn't qualify for the Confederations cup, got embarrassed in the Gold Cup this year, too much experimentation with the lineups, never holds himself accountable and deflects all of the blame elsewhere, placing players out of position and we probably aren't going to the Olympics next year. And I personally don't think there has been much progress over the past few years.


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## Dolemite

Some of you forget that Jurgen wanted to change the development of US Soccer at the younger levels and he's begun that. He gets what needs to be done to grow the US into a soccer power and that is going to take some time. Stop looking at the recent results and understand that US Soccer's development compared to other countries is horrible.

That said, whomever is responsible for making Mex vs US at the Rose Bowl should be fired.


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## Ugmo

Dolemite said:


> Some of you forget that Jurgen wanted to change the development of US Soccer at the younger levels and he's begun that. He gets what needs to be done to grow the US into a soccer power and that is going to take some time. Stop looking at the recent results and understand that US Soccer's development compared to other countries is horrible.
> 
> That said, whomever is responsible for making Mex vs US at the Rose Bowl should be fired.




I don't think anyone is forgetting that. How long do we have to wait for Klinsmann's tenure to show any noticeable progress - four years isn't enough? How do we even know he's the guy to change the development of US Soccer at the younger levels considering how poor of a coach he is turning out to be? I think the problem is that he is rapidly being exposed as about a fraction as good of a coach as he was a player.

And it was CONCACAF who made the decision to play at the Rose Bowl. It wasn't like they were going to let the US play in Columbus.


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## John Price

His bosses are committed to him and he's not going anywhere until at least 2018. The only person's opinion that matters is the head of USA soccer and he has thrown support behind him again and again. Despite this firestorm he's still sticking around



Ugmo said:


> I don't think anyone is forgetting that. How long do we have to wait for Klinsmann's tenure to show any noticeable progress - four years isn't enough? How do we even know he's the guy to change the development of US Soccer at the younger levels considering how poor of a coach he is turning out to be? I think the problem is that he is rapidly being exposed as about a fraction as good of a coach as he was a player.
> 
> And it was CONCACAF who made the decision to play at the Rose Bowl. It wasn't like they were going to let the US play in Columbus.




Posted Today, 09:25 AM
USA isn't looking elsewhere and from the Planet Futbol podcast Bradley was quoted as saying "If we lose Saturday we prepare for the World Cup qualifying in November and if we win Saturday we prepare for World Cup qualifying in November". I don't think we wanted to participate in the Confederations Cup. The best teams don't succeed in that and many of the best teams in the world don't even qualify (Spain / Germany) yet win the World Cup. Oddity. 

That's not to say this loss hurt though because man we were all packed in the basement of the American Outlaws chapter bar in DC last night and everyone there was hooting and hollering and screaming when Wood tied it and then Bam everyone is deflated after MExico scored it was terrible 

In the end it would have been nice to participate in that cup, as it is more practice, but I wouldn't be too pissed off that this team didn't make it. The Olympic games ,from the podcast, are more important and we have to focus on qualifying for that.


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## Ugmo

Mike Emrick said:


> His bosses are committed to him and he's not going anywhere until at least 2018. The only person's opinion that matters is the head of USA soccer and he has thrown support behind him again and again. Despite this firestorm he's still sticking around




Oh, I know he's not going anywhere, as I said in the second post of this thread:



Ugmo said:


> I've been advocating his firing for a long time, but I don't see it. I think he doesn't get fired unless we get off to a horrible start to World Cup qualifying.




He should be fired though. Sunil Gulati is a clueless fanboy. I predict we will stumble through World Cup qualifying and look as disjointed and disorganized as we have pretty much since the World Cup, then play poorly in Russia. Hopefully by that point _everyone_ will be utterly sick of him and Sunil won't be able to extend his contract again like an idiot.

Man, the thought of watching Klinsmann bumble around with our national team for the next three years is really disheartening. At least I live in Austria and can live vicariously through the currently outstanding Austrian team, which legitimately has a great coach and not a snake oil salesman. Hopefully they can tide me over until Klinsmann is gone in 2018.


Edit: Just read an outstanding post on Big Soccer:



> Thought experiment: Pretend for a minute that klinsmann isn't a famous player from Europe. He's an mls coach born in the US. Who would be defending him now?
> 
> So what's the justification for keeping him on at this point?




That pretty much sums it up.


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## John Price

THose American Outlaws  

Best US supporters group I've seen they were all chanting last night and singing and I will definitely try to make it out for more AO bar games when they play, much better than sitting at home doing nothing  



> Come on US score a goal its really ****ing simple, Put the ball into the net and we'll go ****ing mental NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA


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## njdevsfn95

And what competent coach with international experience will replace JK?

Also I do not think 4 years is enough time to see if JK has had any impact on youth development. U23 players shouldve been on the radar of USSoccer early in, if not before, JKs tenure began. We may not know his impact until after he is gone. The kids that were 9-10-11yrs old are just now old for the likes of u16 so weve probably never heard of them.

Id also like to sort-of agree with the Confeds Cup. It didnt help us in 2010 but did it hurt? Probably not. Exposure of the USMNT is now lost, but theyll have WCQs that year anyway, so it probably wont be too dramatic.


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## John Price

JK

- always tinkers
- never takes blame for losses
- puts up mediocre results 

I was initially a huge fan of JK but these losses just add fuel to the fire, you can't talk about him getting this team out of the Group of Death anymore when this team can't even beat a Mexico club that was on interim management. Jurgen was 3-0-3 against Mexico prior to last night. He lost for the first time against Mexico. That's not good. 

Of course he's not going anywhere and he still has time to turn things around but the fire is starting to heat up around him and he better start looking in the mirror and seeing what he's doing wrong and correct it instead of acting like he is too entitled and that "his way works best". It's not working right now boss


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## Ugmo

njdevsfn95 said:


> And what competent coach with international experience will replace JK?




Both of Klinsmann's predecessors were competent, had no international experience and got the exact same results as Klinsmann. Arena actually got _better_ results. Hell, Steve Sampson arguably got better results (Copa America semis in 1995). The argument that Klinsmann is some kind of world-beater who can't be replaced is a complete fallacy. He's doing no better than his predecessors did at a fraction of the cost.

He can be replaced by any number of MLS coaches and the team would probably play better.



njdevsfn95 said:


> Also I do not think 4 years is enough time to see if JK has had any impact on youth development. U23 players shouldve been on the radar of USSoccer early in, if not before, JKs tenure began. We may not know his impact until after he is gone. The kids that were 9-10-11yrs old are just now old for the likes of u16 so weve probably never heard of them.




If we're convinced that he's the guy for _that_ job (and I'm not convinced he is, given his blunders so far), can't we just let him have that job and give the USMNT job to someone who is better at it?


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## John Price

http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2015/10/11/jurgen-klinsmann-usa-mexico-concacaf-cup



> But, in light of the U.S.’s men’s national team’s on-field direction in the 15 months since the 2014 World Cup, culminating in a fourth-place Gold Cup finish and in Saturday’s 3-2 loss to Mexico in the CONCACAF Cup, it’s fair to wonder if Klinsmann should also be the senior national team coach. Should he just be the U.S. technical director and stick with that?
> 
> Klinsmann isn’t in any danger of losing his U.S. coaching job right now—at least according to his boss, U.S. Soccer president Sunil Gulati—and as long as Klinsmann qualifies the U.S. for World Cup ’18 he’ll almost assuredly keep the coaching job through then. But the way the U.S. played against Mexico was emblematic of how it has played against most decent-to-good teams in recent history: Dropping deep, absorbing pressure, conceding possession and hoping to score on set-pieces or on the counter.


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## Basement Cat

What a frustrating game to watch last night. I know one player wouldn't make a huge difference but it was screaming for a Nguyen/Feilhaber to bring some composure and creativity in the midfield. Please stop playing Bradley behind the strikers. He should be playing as an #8 or in Beckerman's role last night with more attacking freedom. 

I'm just at a pretty depressed state right now in regards to this team. I know JK isn't going anywhere and we're in a big rut right now in regards to top end talent level and our manager seems completely lost while refusing to hold himself accountable for anything. I'm still not over him chasing away our best player ever and essentially facilitiating his retirement. Donovan would have helped us a **** ton last night, he would still easily be our best attacking player.


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## chasespace

The "who with international experience can replace him" argument is infuriating. If they have experience that's great, but it's not required. I'd prefer a manager who has shown he can turn a mess into a respectable side, who can adjust his tactics to his players, and who knows how to pick a strong side instead of his favorites. 

You don't need international experience to do that, you need club experience.


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## John Price

It's never his damn fault. It's always the officials fault or the players fault. Take responsibility for the **** that you've put us in instead of acting the arrogant know it all fool.


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## Basement Cat

The worst part is hearing it from foreigners or even usmnt supporters that he is the best that we can do. They speak as if we should be honored to have klinsmann managing this team


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## njdevsfn95

How is it "infuriating" to suggest an international coach should have international experience?

Arena managed 2 non-group games in the WC, an average of 1. Bradley played 1, JK played 1, and Sampson none.

We dont have a great WC history (really non Gold Cup isnt anythig special) so lets not overhype the past because we dont like the present.


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## East Coast Bias

My biggest issue is the MLS hate. Look, the league isn't the Bundesliga - we know that. But it's where the majority of Americans end up in their young careers. It's to the benefit of our NT that the MLS grows. It doesn't have to be Europe. 

He has no interest in giving a lot of MLS guys a run. I understand the likes of Kljestan, McCarty, Feilhaber, etc aren't long term fixtures in the starting 11. But that they'll never get a sniff of an invite while the Alvarados, Morales, Orozco, of the world keep getting invites is crazy. 

There were plenty of good moves to grab dual nationals, but this obsession with anyone who is "part American" is ridiculous. This isn't Guiseppe Rossi in his prime - it's people like Timmy Chandler. Enough.


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## njdevsfn95

Well the MLS and nonMLS players disappointed equally in important matches so far this year.

The NT should have a lot of turnover when it underperforms. I guess we will see in November.


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## Ugmo

njdevsfn95 said:


> How is it "infuriating" to suggest an international coach should have international experience?




"International experience" hasn't helped Klinsmann to do any better than his predecessors. At this point I would sacrifice international experience for a guy who understands tactics and man management, and that doesn't appear to be Klinsmann.



njdevsfn95 said:


> Arena managed 2 non-group games in the WC, an average of 1. Bradley played 1, JK played 1, and Sampson none.
> 
> We dont have a great WC history (really non Gold Cup isnt anythig special) so lets not overhype the past because we dont like the present.




All that's cool, but let's also not overhype Klinsmann because he used to be a good player. As a coach he's done very little outside of a string of about 5 good games in 2006 with one of the world's best player pools. Did okay with Bayern Munich before getting fired because okay wasn't good enough, did okay with the U.S. for the first couple of years, and is now doing poorly.

To me it what it all comes down to is: are we moving in the right direction or are we moving in the wrong direction? I don't understand how anyone can look at yesterday's two results and conclude we are making progress. If the argument is that Klinsmann has overhauled everything and we will have to wait several more years to determine whether that has been successful, my response is what if it hasn't? What if we wait several more years only to find out that he's as bad at overhauling a developmental system as he is at coaching a senior national team? That seems awfully risky. At worst we will be looking at eight years of stagnation as a result of that expensive experiment. Can't we cut our losses now and go with someone who has shown he knows how to get results week in and week out?


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## njdevscup30

It amazes me how creative players like Feilhaber and Agudelo continually do not get called up and we play game after game of this awful bunker down soccer.


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## Ugmo

njdevscup30 said:


> It amazes me how creative players like Feilhaber and Agudelo continually do not get called up and we play game after game of this awful bunker down soccer.




I seem to remember that the problem with Feilhaber is that he criticized Klinsmann once over something, so he is now in purgatory. Which is another hallmark of the Klinsmann era.


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## chasespace

njdevsfn95 said:


> How is it "infuriating" to suggest an international coach should have international experience?
> 
> Arena managed 2 non-group games in the WC, an average of 1. Bradley played 1, JK played 1, and Sampson none.
> 
> We dont have a great WC history (really non Gold Cup isnt anythig special) so lets not overhype the past because we dont like the present.




It's infuriating because one, it means they weren't good enough to be an international manager somewhere else(if they left the post to join a club and then went back to coaching international that'd be a different story), and two it invalidates a ton of promising managers because they haven't been trusted with a national team in the past.


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## Basement Cat

Im hoping that JK starts working towards a lineup like this and we see it sometime by the summer:

Morris
Johnson-Nguyen-Nagbe
Feilhaber-Bradley
Shea-Besler-Cameron-Yedlin

*If needing more defenseive shape/cover, then replace Nguyen with Williams and swap with Benny (Feilhaber at CAM and Williams at CDM).

This lineup makes us very dynamic. It's a totally different look than what we put out on Saturday and can at least put any opponent on their heels simply due to the speed of it. Nagbe, Nguyen, Feilhaber are all additions that help us in the technical aspect of the game as well.


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## Brock Anton

> Brian Sciaretta ‏@BrianSciaretta
> Jurgen Klinsmann: "I had a very severe word with Fabian Johnson, and I sent him home today."
> 
> Brian Sciaretta ‏@BrianSciaretta
> Fabian Johnson was sent home today from the #usmnt. Klinsmann felt he was not injured. Wanted to use last sub for Rimando for PKs vs Mexico
> 
> Brian Sciaretta ‏@BrianSciaretta
> Klinsmann on sending Fabian Johnson home: "He can rethink his approach about his team."




Didn't Johnson just come off a fairly significant injury? (also, LOL at Klinsmann wanting to save a sub for Rimando. I know Rimando is a god at saving PK's but come on, Jurgen)


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## bluesfan94

1) playing for PKs is stupid. 
2) not having Johnson only hurts our fullback depth more. 
3) can we fire Jurgen yet?


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## Big McLargehuge

Sounds like he found his scapegoat of the week.


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## Pavel Buchnevich

At what point does he lose the locker room?


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## Brock Anton

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> At what point does he lose the locker room?




It's quite possible that he has already. 



> After the Mexico loss in the Rose Bowl, I asked a few U.S. players if they felt comfortable answering the question: Do you think Klinsmann is the right coach to lead the U.S. team moving forward?
> 
> *Several said they didnâ€™t feel comfortable answering*, and you know what? That makes total sense. But Jermaine Jones and Clint Dempsey said they were willing to answer.




http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2015/10/11/jurgen-klinsmann-usa-mexico-concacaf-cup


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## Virtanen18

So he'd rather have a guy who's gassed (injured?) and potentially detrimental to the team continue to play so he can play for penalties? Smart.


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## Ugmo

Big McLargehuge said:


> Sounds like he found his scapegoat of the week.




Yep. 

Classic Klinsmann. Bad performance by the team and someone other than Klinsmann is to blame, as always.


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## chasespace

We're gonna miss the World Cup at this rate.


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## Halladay

chasespace said:


> We're gonna miss the World Cup at this rate.




I think that is a bit extreme. but who knows.


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## bluesfan94

Gladbach came out and said Johnson returned injured. So there's that.


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## Brock Anton

So Howard is in net tonight. 

Looks like Bill Hamid will never get his chance... or maybe when he's 35.


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## kingsboy11

Brock Anton said:


> So Howard is in net tonight.
> 
> Looks like Bill Hamid will never get his chance... or maybe when he's 35.




Why have 24 year old Bill Hamid on the roster when you can have 36 year old Rimando who can't get any better than he already is?


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## Brock Anton

kingsboy11 said:


> Why have 24 year old Bill Hamid on the roster when you can have 36 year old Rimando who can't get any better than he already is?




Damn Fabian Johnson feigning injuries... WE NEEDED RIMANDO FOR PK'S!!!!

(though tbf Rimando is a ****ing beast at saving PK's)


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## chasespace

856 said:


> I think that is a bit extreme. but who knows.




Right now we're below Mexico. Jamaica, Panama, and Costa Rica are all on the upswing(all three share a group in the next stage so only two will get out) and have shown they can beat the US if Klinnsmann refuses to adapt. If those three finish above us we'd have to get through a playoff game where I'm just not confident we can win at this point in time.


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## Theokritos

njdevsfn95 said:


> And what competent coach with international experience will replace JK?




Reality is that any average to above-average _Bundesliga_ coach could do a more competent job than JK. Like this one:



Ugmo said:


> At least I live in Austria and can live vicariously through the currently outstanding Austrian team, which legitimately has a great coach and not a snake oil salesman.




Zero name recognition internationally before he got hired, but he actually is a football coach. Klinsmann? Got the name recognition, but nothing else.


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## HajdukSplit

Costa Rica totally outplaying the US


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## chasespace

#Fireklinnsmann.

Seriously. Fire him.


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## The Camera Eye

Mix has been terrible this year with NYCFC. Why is he still getting caps with USMNT?


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## TheMoreYouKnow

I wouldn't say Klinsmann got *nothing* else, I hear he's a nice guy.


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## kingsboy11

3 consecutive home defeats


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## kingsboy11

On the bright side, the U-23s win their game against Canada. Olympic hopes are still alive


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## KingLB

kingsboy11 said:


> On the bright side, the U-23s win their game against Canada. Olympic hopes are still alive




How sad, that is the bright side atm.

Klinsyout!


----------



## Basement Cat

The Red Bulls would trounce that USMNT we saw out there tonight in a 7 game series. 

This squad needs a serious revolution or else we might struggle to get out of this WCQ group for ****s sake


----------



## Brock Anton

That was one of our worst performances under Klinsmann.... and that's saying something.


----------



## East Coast Bias

chasespace said:


> Right now we're below Mexico. Jamaica, Panama, and Costa Rica are all on the upswing(all three share a group in the next stage so only two will get out) and have shown they can beat the US if Klinnsmann refuses to adapt. If those three finish above us we'd have to get through a playoff game where I'm just not confident we can win at this point in time.




We're below Costa Rica right now and not just because of last night.


----------



## PattyLafontaine

East Coast Bias said:


> My biggest issue is the MLS hate. Look, the league isn't the Bundesliga - we know that. But it's where the majority of Americans end up in their young careers. It's to the benefit of our NT that the MLS grows. It doesn't have to be Europe.
> 
> He has no interest in giving a lot of MLS guys a run. I understand the likes of Kljestan, McCarty, Feilhaber, etc aren't long term fixtures in the starting 11. But that they'll never get a sniff of an invite while the Alvarados, Morales, Orozco, of the world keep getting invites is crazy.
> 
> There were plenty of good moves to grab dual nationals, but this obsession with anyone who is "part American" is ridiculous. This isn't Guiseppe Rossi in his prime - it's people like Timmy Chandler. Enough.




Actually, it does have to be Europe. I get that people want the MLS to become a great but the fact of the matter is that all of the best players in the world play in Europe. Playing against inferior players doesn't make you better. Even the younger players would be suited to start in Europe in the Belgian or Dutch leagues and then move up to one of the 5 big leagues. The problem is the Visa issue. To get a Visa you need to be a top level player in the country you represent. 

The alternative method is to gain citizenship in an EU country, which would mean moving to Europe at an earlier age.


----------



## Ugmo

PattyLafontaine said:


> Actually, it does have to be Europe. I get that people want the MLS to become a great but the fact of the matter is that all of the best players in the world play in Europe. Playing against inferior players doesn't make you better. Even the younger players would be suited to start in Europe in the Belgian or Dutch leagues and then move up to one of the 5 big leagues. The problem is the Visa issue. To get a Visa you need to be a top level player in the country you represent.
> 
> The alternative method is to gain citizenship in an EU country, which would mean moving to Europe at an earlier age.




I doubt it makes that much difference by the time these guys are in their 20s. Going to a European league doesn't automatically make you better - it means you're good enough to play in a European league. It would help if they'd go over as kids and be developed by European academies, but an American player isn't going to improve significantly by moving to Europe at the age of 23 or 24.


----------



## bluesfan94

One of the reasons I'm excited about pulisic


----------



## PattyLafontaine

Ugmo said:


> I doubt it makes that much difference by the time these guys are in their 20s. Going to a European league doesn't automatically make you better - it means you're good enough to play in a European league. It would help if they'd go over as kids and be developed by European academies, but an American player isn't going to improve significantly by moving to Europe at the age of 23 or 24.




Actually it still does make a difference because you are constantly challenging yourself against top players. You don't there's a difference in playing against Brad Davis or Darlington Nagbe versus say Luke Shaw or Kevin De Bruyne. Sure, it's clearly better to start as a youngster but even in your early twenties by constantly playing higher level talent you develop the experience of understanding what works against top players and what is needed from the mental aspect of the game moreso than playing against players who are of a championship (English) level. 

Bradley playing at Toronto is a complete waste.


----------



## Ugmo

PattyLafontaine said:


> Actually it still does make a difference because you are constantly challenging yourself against top players. You don't there's a difference in playing against Brad Davis or Darlington Nagbe versus say Luke Shaw or Kevin De Bruyne. Sure, it's clearly better to start as a youngster but even in your early twenties by constantly playing higher level talent you develop the experience of understanding what works against top players and what is needed from the mental aspect of the game moreso than playing against players who are of a championship (English) level.
> 
> Bradley playing at Toronto is a complete waste.




You're completely overstating it. Michael Bradley coming to Toronto FC at the age of 27 makes little to no difference. Playing in Seattle certainly hasn't impaired Dempsey's level of play, and he's playing against the same competition as Bradley. MLS has been around for 20 years now - there is no evidence that going to Europe has especially helped U.S. players, just like there's no preponderance of evidence that coming back to MLS has hurt them. There are plenty of cases of players who have gone to Europe and stagnated just like there are plenty of cases of players who have thrived in MLS. These guys have completed most of their development before they ever get to Europe. Any improvement at that point is barely significant.


----------



## chasespace

Ugmo said:


> Playing in Seattle certainly hasn't impaired Dempsey's level of play, and he's playing against the same competition as Bradley.




Dempsey has been trash lately for the USMNT


----------



## Ugmo

chasespace said:


> Dempsey has been trash lately for the USMNT




He scored seven goals at the Gold Cup. If he's been off in the past couple of games (like the rest of the team), it pretty obviously has nothing whatsoever to do with MLS.


----------



## Fro

if US/Mexico was in Columbus we wouldn't have lost...


----------



## Brock Anton

Looks like the Copa America next year is a go. Final to be played in the Rose Bowl. 

http://www.espnfc.us/copa-america/s...rica-centenario-set-to-go-ahead-in-us-sources


----------



## Ugmo

Brock Anton said:


> Looks like the Copa America next year is a go. Final to be played in the Rose Bowl.
> 
> http://www.espnfc.us/copa-america/s...rica-centenario-set-to-go-ahead-in-us-sources




That is awesome.

Not to be a broken record, but I hope we get rid of Klinsmann asap so we don't embarrass ourselves in this thing.


----------



## Ugmo

While we're at it, MLS has been really horrible for Giovinco's career and form, huh?

Good thing he's not taking any advice from Klinsmann.


----------



## Basement Cat

Ugmo said:


> While we're at it, MLS has been really horrible for Giovinco's career and form, huh?
> 
> Good thing he's not taking any advice from Klinsmann.




So MLS is not beneath Italy, Colombia, or Ghana...all of which are more talented teams than the USMNT...but somehow it's beneath Klinsi


----------



## HajdukSplit

Brock Anton said:


> Looks like the Copa America next year is a go. Final to be played in the Rose Bowl.
> 
> http://www.espnfc.us/copa-america/s...rica-centenario-set-to-go-ahead-in-us-sources




I still doubt the strongest teams will be selected, Brazil have the Olympics and Neymar will get selected for that. While only three overage players can be selected for the Olympics surely they will be the better players. Tim Vickery, South American football correspondent, seems to think the same as well, with Peru already announcing they will likely send a U23 squad

Though one argument for these teams brining their best squads is CONMEBOL didn't schedule World Cup qualifiers in June like they have in the past


----------



## chasespace

Adrian Heath for USMNT manager


----------



## HajdukSplit

looks like the format of the Olympic qualifier with Colombia has changed, it will be a two-leg playoff in March with Colombia hosting the first leg. In the past it was a single game playoff


----------



## Brock Anton

This is becoming a clownshow.



> Despite recent losses, Jurgen Klinsmann remains the U.S. men’s national team coach and technical director, but multiple sources say that Klinsmann’s duties in the latter area have become more ceremonial than before.
> 
> Over the past year, U.S. Soccer’s chief commercial director Jay Berhalter—the brother of Columbus Crew SC coach Gregg Berhalter—has started taking over a lot of the day-to-day technical director duties. Berhalter even called an important meeting in Chicago in August that did not include Klinsmann.
> 
> People on the inside have different views about it. One said Berhalter is a smart guy who gets things done. Another said if you’re going to give Klinsmann the technical director job you should let him do it without interference. Communication between Berhalter and Klinsmann is described as “not good.” One insider used the term “power struggle.”




Klinsmann also pulled a Mourinho



> That's not all of the behind-the-scenes happenings involving Klinsmann. In the last week, Klinsmann fired head trainer Sue Falsone. Falsone had been in the job for a year after having the same role for the Los Angeles Dodgers. I’m told that, among other things, Klinsmann was not happy with the way she dealt with Alejandro Bedoya’s illness that kept him out of the USA's CONCACAF Cup playoff against Mexico and friendly against Costa Rica.




http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/201...soccer-jay-berhalter-jason-kreis-vieira-nycfc


----------



## Ugmo

Fire Klinsmann banner for the Saint Louis qualifier.... they're three-quarters of the way there!

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fire-klinsmann-airplane-banner/x/12523315#/

I donated a couple of bucks.


----------



## chasespace

Ugmo said:


> Fire Klinsmann banner for the Saint Louis qualifier.... they're three-quarters of the way there!
> 
> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fire-klinsmann-airplane-banner/x/12523315#/
> 
> I donated a couple of bucks.




Not a fan of this. Boo Klinsmann when he comes out and let that be it. Having a banner circle the stadium is just going to upset the players even more.


----------



## Ugmo

chasespace said:


> Having a banner circle the stadium is just going to upset the players even more.




Why? Or why would that upset them more than the fans booing him? They're professional soccer players... a plane circling the stadium is child's play compared to what players in other countries have to deal with when they're playing like garbage (regardless of whether the coach needs to be replaced or not).


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

This thread is funny. They may be on a down but Jurgen is the best thing yo happen to lowly US soccer. They were nothing before he got there. They might never get again where he's got them. Careful what you wish for as they say.


----------



## bluesfan94

Sports Enthusiast said:


> This thread is funny. They may be on a down but Jurgen is the best thing yo happen to lowly US soccer. They were nothing before he got there. They might never get again where he's got them. Careful what you wish for as they say.




For a sports enthusiast, you certainly seem to know nothing.


----------



## Savant

bluesfan94 said:


> For a sports enthusiast, you certainly seem to know nothing.




No reason to feed the troll he has been doing this all day.


----------



## Virtanen18

Ugmo said:


> Fire Klinsmann banner for the Saint Louis qualifier.... they're three-quarters of the way there!
> 
> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fire-klinsmann-airplane-banner/x/12523315#/
> 
> I donated a couple of bucks.



Might as well give 50 for the personal award. Sounds like a doozy.


----------



## Ugmo

Sports Enthusiast said:


> This thread is funny. They may be on a down but Jurgen is the best thing yo happen to lowly US soccer. They were nothing before he got there. They might never get again where he's got them. Careful what you wish for as they say.




Klinsmann has achieved literally nothing that almost all of his predecessors since 1990 haven't also achieved. Let's recap:

Klinsmann: qualified for Brazil 2014, got to the knockout stages where we got slapped around by Belgium, won the Gold Cup once
Bob Gansler: qualified for Italia 1990 with a bunch of college players but did poorly there.
Bora Milutinovic: didn't have to qualify for USA 1994 but got to the second round.
Steve Sampson: semi-finals of Copa America 1995, qualified for France 98 but did horribly there
Bruce Arena: qualified for Korea/Japan, *got to the quarterfinals* and took Germany to the limit, also won the Gold Cup
Bob Bradley: qualified for South Africa 2010, got to the knockout stages, won the Gold Cup, Confederations Cup final 2009

Klinsmann hasn't done any worse than most of his predecessors, but he hasn't done any better either. He has done worse than Arena, who now even has a higher winning percentage than Klinsmann thanks to the **** show of the past few months. He had an okay run at first, but now he has clearly lost the team through his arrogance, his unwillingess to take any responsibility when things go badly and his willingness to regularly seek out scapegoats for losses. The team is playing horribly. Worst of all, he was hired and paid a princely salary to elevate the USMNT's game. Instead we are actually playing worse than ever and embarrassing ourselves against minnows in our region who hadn't beaten us in decades. Time for him to go.

It's guys like you who demonstrate in one post that they either know nothing about soccer in general or nothing about US soccer specifically, and often a combination of the two, who are the base of Klinsmann's support. Eventually that base will crumble as well, and then he is gone. Gulati can't hold onto him when literally everyone wants him out.


----------



## Ugmo

Savant said:


> No reason to feed the troll he has been doing this all day.




On the other hand there are a lot of Johnny-come-latelys who are laboring under the same misapprehensions as this guy, so it doesn't hurt to address them.


----------



## Basement Cat

Ugmo said:


> On the other hand there are a lot of Johnny-come-latelys who are laboring under the same misapprehensions as this guy, so it doesn't hurt to address them.




Exactly. Just a few days ago we were posting in here about the morons who think that we should be flattered that Klinsi even looked our way. The guy is an awful manager. If his name was Mike Petke, he would have been fired after the GC


----------



## Savant

Ugmo said:


> On the other hand there are a lot of Johnny-come-latelys who are laboring under the same misapprehensions as this guy, so it doesn't hurt to address them.




Look at some of the other threads around these parts and you'll see.


----------



## KingLB

I wanna see Klinsy fired and Rogers hired just for LITN and other Pool'/US fans on here's reactions...


----------



## Live in the Now

I really dislike Klinsmann so I'd be cool with that, but I don't think Rodgers will leave club management anytime soon.


----------



## Ugmo

Savant said:


> Look at some of the other threads around these parts and you'll see.




Oh I don't doubt he's a troll. I'm just saying the myth that Klinsmann is the greatest thing to ever happen to US Soccer needs to be disspelled once and for all.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Ugmo said:


> Oh I don't doubt he's a troll. I'm just saying the myth that Klinsmann is the greatest thing to ever happen to US Soccer needs to be disspelled once and for all.




This would only happen if more Americans actually paid attention to U.S. soccer between World Cups. If you only have the World Cup hype as the context to your view on Klinsmann, you'd probably think he's done fine too.


----------



## Ugmo

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> This would only happen if more Americans actually paid attention to U.S. soccer between World Cups. If you only have the World Cup hype as the context to your view on Klinsmann, you'd probably think he's done fine too.




True. Which brings up the point that his supporters are even giving him credit for the most recent World Cup hype! Rather than the fact that this was the fist World Cup since 1994 that was in the same time zone as the U.S.


----------



## Starsfan24

Abby finally announced her retirement.


----------



## kingsboy11

Good now she wont take up a roster spot in the Olympics. But it will be sad to see her go. Will always remember her goal against Brazil in the World Cup.


----------



## Brock Anton

Starsfan24 said:


> Abby finally announced her retirement.




Thank god. Was scared that she'd try to force her way onto the Olympic squad for a minute there.


----------



## chasespace

Shouldn't the roster for the first two WCQ games be out soon?


----------



## Brock Anton

Nagbe has been called up. 



> Ives Galarcep ‏@SoccerByIves
> Seems as though the cat's out of the bag on the Darlington Nagbe #USMNT callup. Can confirm it is happening. Let's see how he fits in.


----------



## kingsboy11

Brock Anton said:


> Nagbe has been called up.




In before Jurgen puts Nagbe at left back


----------



## Brock Anton

kingsboy11 said:


> In before Jurgen puts Nagbe at left back




"Anyone can play left back"


----------



## Savant

Nagbe has very good as 433 CM recently.


----------



## Ugmo

I like Nagbe so much that Portland is becoming my favorite MLS team. Please JÃ¼rgen, don't ruin him like you have a tendency to do.


----------



## Basement Cat

Anyone seen the Miazga love from Euro scouts? Kid needs to be capped asap. Honestly should be on the roster tomorrow


----------



## Brock Anton

Basement Cat said:


> Anyone seen the Miazga love from Euro scouts? Kid needs to be capped asap. Honestly should be on the roster tomorrow




I know we like to get ahead of ourselves whenever there's a dual-national player, but seriously, cap this kid now. He obviously has some pull to Poland, no need to even risk losing him. Not like we don't need the help at CB anyways....


----------



## JunglePete

Call ups for WCQ : GK: Guzan, Hamid, Howard
DF: Alvarado, Besler, Cameron, Johnson, Miazga, Orozco, Ream, Shea
MF: Beckerman, Bradley, Diskerud, Jones, Nagbe, Yedlin, Ibarra
FW: Altidore, Gordon, Morris, Wood, Zardes


Good news is Miazga joined the US team.


----------



## chasespace

Not overly impressed with the roster. This was the perfect chance to bring in plenty of new faces since they're playing weaker competition and he chose not to do so.


----------



## kingsboy11

I didn't even know Miazga was a dual national. Even more important that we called him up. And why is Beckerman still getting called up?


----------



## bluesfan94

JÃ¼rgen better cap-tie Miazga


----------



## JunglePete

kingsboy11 said:


> I didn't even know Miazga was a dual national. Even more important that we called him up. And why is Beckerman still getting called up?




More like why is Gordon still getting called up? Agudelo, Davies, Sapong, Mullins and even Wondo would have been better choices.

Also when will Shipp get called up?


----------



## bluesfan94

I would have called up a ton of youth....Miazga, Kiesewetter, Hyndman, Gil, Steffen, Agudelo, etc.


----------



## Brock Anton

kingsboy11 said:


> I didn't even know Miazga was a dual national. Even more important that we called him up. And why is Beckerman still getting called up?




Beckerman's still here because Jurgen has refused to bring in Kitchen, Trapp or whoever and we don't have a replacement for him.



bluesfan94 said:


> I would have called up a ton of youth....Miazga, Kiesewetter, Hyndman, Gil, Steffen, Agudelo, etc.




Only really two of those guys are even remotely ready for a call (Miazga and Agudelo). Gil has been awful for RSL, Hyndman doesn't play for Fulham and Hamid is well ahead of Steffen. Kiesewetter, maybe, but I haven't seen enough of him to make a decision.


----------



## JunglePete

Brock Anton said:


> Beckerman's still here because Jurgen has refused to bring in Kitchen, Trapp or whoever and we don't have a replacement for him.
> 
> 
> 
> Only really two of those guys are even remotely ready for a call (Miazga and Agudelo). Gil has been awful for RSL, Hyndman doesn't play for Fulham and Hamid is well ahead of Steffen. Kiesewetter, maybe, but I haven't seen enough of him to make a decision.




Kitchen and Trapp still have their playoffs to focus on. Nagbe and Miazga are unique cases. Hamid is a 3rd string Goalkeeper, so it won't matter.


I would add to the list of Miazga and Agudelo, Harry Shipp. His ball control and speed are much needed in that US squad. We all saw what Jones can bring as LW... 

Plus, Marseille had an interest for Shipp in the past so it would help him get more exposure.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

Had to sell my St. Louis tickets, can't go down next weekend. Was looking so forward to the game


----------



## John Price

Hamid


----------



## East Coast Bias

Alan Gordon

GTFOH


----------



## Plato




----------



## chasespace

Plato said:


>





Seems a little weird but not overly upset about it. Kids at that age should focus more on ball skills than heading anyways.


----------



## HajdukSplit

Better at that age to develop technical skills anyway, also most kids that age I think are afraid to head the ball anyway, at least I was to be honest


----------



## Brock Anton

> Guzan; Yedlin, Cameron, Besler, Ream; Zardes, Jones, Bradley, F. Johnson; Altidore, Wood #USAvVIN




Pretty sensible lineup.


----------



## kingsboy11

We should win pretty easily...In Theory.


----------



## Brock Anton

So who's going to score on us, the fisherman, the lifeguard or the painter?


----------



## Brock Anton

hahahahahahahaha


----------



## NJDevs26

The women B team could probably beat the men at this point.


----------



## kingsboy11

The worst part about this is that I'm not even surprised anymore


----------



## Brock Anton

pretty nice team goal that


----------



## Cody Webster

GGOOOOOOAAAAlLLLLLLL

Bobby Wood GOAT


----------



## Basement Cat

Should be still be kissing Klinsmann's feet for gracing us with his presence or what?


----------



## Brock Anton

Hey, we're beating St. Vincent and the Grenadines. Give Jurgen an extension.


----------



## Cody Webster

Looks like they finally decided to wake up


----------



## Cody Webster

Jozy!!!!!


----------



## Brock Anton

Zardes has been more or less awful.


----------



## chasespace

We're playing a college team, practically. The fact we gave up a goal is an insult.


----------



## Brock Anton

This Anderson fellow is pretty much proving as to why Yedlin isn't a right back.


----------



## Cody Webster

GGGGGGGGGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAALLLlLLLLL


----------



## Brock Anton

Wood has been great out there tonight, definitely earned a start against T&T.


----------



## Brock Anton

Really feel for this keeper. Dude is straight hung out to dry.


----------



## Brock Anton

Looks like Miazga, Nagbe and Morris are coming on.


----------



## kingsboy11

Brock Anton said:


> Looks like Miazga, Nagbe and Morris are coming on.




This will cap tie Miazga tonight


----------



## Cody Webster

Jozy again!


----------



## kingsboy11

A win is a win, but there's still more to improve on. Going to be a much tougher test against T&T.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Nothing much to read into a game against this level of competition, but I don't think it's outlandish to say that this team almost _needed_ a game like this just to get some sort of confidence back.

Trinidad & Tobago should be a speedbump, not a challenge, but with the way things have gone it most definitely will be a challenge.

Great to see Miazga get cap tied.


----------



## John Price

One more hour...


----------



## Brock Anton

Orozco at RB and dropping Wood. **** off Jurgen.


----------



## bluesfan94

Not on tv?


----------



## Brock Anton

It's on BeIN Sports and NBC Universo.


----------



## Brock Anton

Jones passes to Jones, it's intercepted by Jones who's fouled by Jones.


----------



## Brock Anton

I expected ugly, but jesus this is bad.


----------



## Basement Cat

Why do we play games against teams our level and lower without a real #10. There's no technical ability on display here. 

If we had a midfield trio like this one tonight, would we not be better off?

Nguyen
Benny-Bradley


----------



## Brock Anton

Basement Cat said:


> Why do we play games against teams our level and lower without a real #10. There's no technical ability on display here.
> 
> If we had a midfield trio like this one tonight, would we not be better off?
> 
> Nguyen
> Benny-Bradley




That midfield would e even more overrun than this one is. No defensive presence. 

Beckerman
Bradley - Nagbe 

^ that would be fairly ideal right now IMO.


----------



## Brock Anton

Zardes once again, has been completely useless. Every single one of his touches is way too hard.


----------



## Basement Cat

Against teams like this, I don't think so. Benny has proven this season that he can play deeper effectively. 

Beckerman is cooked. Would rather start Dax at least


----------



## chasespace

Yedlin is a terribad defender when he's against a pacey winger, which should be his strength


----------



## Brock Anton

Basement Cat said:


> Against teams like this, I don't think so. Benny has proven this season that he can play deeper effectively.
> 
> Beckerman is cooked. Would rather start Dax at least




I'd prefer Dax as well, but I was just going by what we've got available.


----------



## HajdukSplit

boring game but its clear Klinsmann is playing it safe and a draw is ok for him


----------



## kingsboy11

Sounds like a good thing that most of the U.S. can't watch this game


----------



## Brock Anton

That's two golden chances Zardes, gotta finish.


----------



## Brock Anton

Nagbe on for Ream with Johnson moving to LB. Good sub, Ream was making Joevin Jones look like David Alaba.


----------



## Brock Anton

Zardes has gone full Danny Welbeck.


----------



## Brock Anton

Meh, it's a point can't really say much else.


----------



## chasespace

That was disappointing


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Is that supposed to be considered a good result?


----------



## Brock Anton

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Is that supposed to be considered a good result?




It's not a 'bad' one, and that's all I'll say about it.


----------



## John Price

It is on TV at the bar.

Tough draw

If you can't find it on cable do what I did and head to ao chapter. Although fios out of nowhere unlocked bein and put it on basic cable.


----------



## Virtanen18

I enjoy Landon Donovan's hot takes about the national team.


----------



## East Coast Bias

SANTArelli25 said:


> I enjoy Landon Donovan's hot takes about the national team.




90% of Jurgen's decisions are hot takes


----------



## Basement Cat

One big positive is that Nagbe looks like he will be a big help. 

I would love for us to integrate Miazga ASAP as well The kid is better than most of our CBs already. 

Go back to relying on our athleticism and physical acumen. Hit teams hard on the counter:

Morris (Or Jozy)
Fabian-Nagbe-Zardes
Bradley-Cameron
Ream-Besler-Miazga-Yedlin

Though a 3-5-2 fits out player pool the best, IMO. 

Something like:

Jozy-Morris
Nagbe
Fabian-Bradley-Yedlin
Cameron
Brooks-Besler-Miazga

Yedlin and Johnson would make excellent wingbacks


----------



## bluesfan94

I've been calling for a 3-5-2 for forever now. It's quite clearly what's best given our fullback situation.


----------



## John Price

I was listening to the Planet Futbol podcast and they were talking about this issue with the forwards post-Dempsey. It's not like Dempsey is doing anything right now, the Sounders are eliminated. He could help this team but he's staying at home because Jurgen thinks that it's time for the other boys to step up. Well, the other boys aren't doing anything. 

Having Captain America during this WC qualifying would have been big.


----------



## Ugmo

I think Dempsey is in the doghouse because JÃ¼rgen wants him as a scapegoat for the Mexico loss. And if Klinsmann really is trying to phase him out, it's yet more bizarre decision-making from him - getting rid of great players who are still the class of the program, like Donovan and Dempsey, far too prematurely while holding on to players who are clearly past it like Beckerman or Jones forever.


----------



## HajdukSplit

The venues for the Copa America Centenario have been revealed, 10 stadiums, all giant 60K seater minimum

1) MetLife Stadium
2) Rose Bowl
3) Soldier Field
4) CenturyLink Stadium
5) Gillette Stadium
6) Levi's Stadium
7) NRG Stadium
8) University of Phoenix Stadium
9) Lincoln Financial Field
10) Citrus Bowl


----------



## Brock Anton

Really surprised they didn't find a way to squeeze FedEx Field in there.


----------



## kingsboy11

Are they going to replace the turf fields with grass? Or are they just going to leave them as is?


----------



## IU Hawks fan

Couldn't find a 2nd spot in the Midwest. Tix in Chicago are gonna be insane.


----------



## KingLB

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Is that supposed to be considered a good result?






Brock Anton said:


> It's not a 'bad' one, and that's all I'll say about it.




I would.



HajdukSplit said:


> The venues for the Copa America Centenario have been revealed, 10 stadiums, all giant 60K seater minimum
> 
> 1) MetLife Stadium
> 2) Rose Bowl
> 3) Soldier Field
> 4) CenturyLink Stadium
> 5) Gillette Stadium
> 6) Levi's Stadium
> 7) NRG Stadium
> 8) University of Phoenix Stadium
> 9) Lincoln Financial Field
> 10) Citrus Bowl




Surprised as hell they didn't put Dallas on the list. Could likely pull ~100k for Mexico/Brazil/Argies no problem. Assuming the bring real sides.


----------



## DoyleG

KingLB said:


> Surprised as hell they didn't put Dallas on the list. Could likely pull ~100k for Mexico/Brazil/Argies no problem. Assuming the bring real sides.




The talk is they may not send the full sides given the Olympics (especially Brazil needed to put in a top team there) and the following WCQ for the remainder of the year (2 games/month from Sep-Nov).


----------



## HajdukSplit

DoyleG said:


> The talk is they may not send the full sides given the Olympics (especially Brazil needed to put in a top team there) and the following WCQ for the remainder of the year (2 games/month from Sep-Nov).




Kind of figured Brazil wouldn't sent their best squad, the Olympics are way more important for them and their three over-age players will probably be the likes of Neymar, Thiago Silva and somebody else

Tim Vickery, journalist living in Brazil who works for BBC, is pretty adamant that most sides won't send their strongest team, think I read that Peru for example won't bring the strongest side

http://www.worldsoccer.com/columnis...america-will-the-copa-america-go-ahead-364167 (article is a few months old, before the tournament was officially announced)

_There is also the problem of overkill. Six South American sides were in action during the World Cup, and all of them played this yearâ€™s Copa America in Chile. Another competition in 2016 would mean that, if selected, some of the worldâ€™s best players would have a third consecutive year without adequate holidays. And staging the thing in the middle of the most gruelling World Cup qualification campaign on the planet is surely putting too much of a burden on the players. Peru would certainly seem to think so. Their preliminary plan for the Centenary Copa has been to take an Under-23 side â€“ and a tournament full of understrength and experimental squads is surely no way to celebrate a centenary._


----------



## HajdukSplit

Three goals in two games for Fabian Johnson, all good finishes as well


----------



## Brock Anton

Rapinoe tore her ACL yesterday, likely out for the Olympics. 

Sucks, but we should be fine. We've still got O'Reilly, Heath, Dunn and O'Hara (not to mention Ellis' insistence of playing Press out wide as well). Probably the only position outside of striker that we could afford to have an injury or two. If someone like Lloyd, Sauerbrunn/Johnston or Brian goes down, then we'd have serious problems.


----------



## kingsboy11

The game vs Trinidad has been cancelled today due to poor field conditions. Many believe that the field was the reason Rapinoe got injured yesterday.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Huzzah for turf!


----------



## Brock Anton

Not that it matters because the turf at Aloha was god awful, but Rapinoe didn't get injured on turf (the training pitch was grass).


----------



## John Price

It's absolutely APPALLING That the women are treated less fairly than the men's team 

Support them however you can because the way they are being treated is an insult. They're world champions. 

RT @hopesolo We are the World Champions. We deserve better. Our team statement https://t.co/0WFLXJxKWF #equality https://t.co/FUltEMWL6Q


----------



## kingsboy11

Brock Anton said:


> Not that it matters because the turf at Aloha was god awful, but Rapinoe didn't get injured on turf (the training pitch was grass).




Correct that was my mistake. 

The Women's statement on their decision today: http://www.theplayerstribune.com/uswnt-match-canceled-field-conditions/


----------



## JunglePete

After that amazing final, Villafana earned a January call-up.


----------



## Brock Anton

JunglePete said:


> After that amazing final, Villafana earned a January call-up.




Yep, not like we couldn't use a left back either.


----------



## Brock Anton

kingsboy11 said:


> Correct that was my mistake.
> 
> The Women's statement on their decision today: http://www.theplayerstribune.com/uswnt-match-canceled-field-conditions/




I don't think anyone is arguing their point because they are right, but please don't lie and say it's not a 'turf vs. grass' thing. That's complete ********. Just look at Carli Lloyd's twitter timeline.


----------



## Ugmo

I think it's appalling that the USSF doesn't inspect ALL the training and playing fields well in advance.


----------



## East Coast Bias

JunglePete said:


> After that amazing final, Villafana earned a January call-up.




it will be 2020, and JK will still be calling DMB out of retirement over calling up non big name MLS'ers to play LB

(I agree with you fwiw)


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Hey now, I don't think it'll take Klinnsy until 2020.

He'll be part of Caleb Porter's 2018 squad.


----------



## KingLB

Meh, I don't rate Villafana internationally.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

KingLB said:


> Meh, I don't rate Villafana internationally.




Me neither, just felt like taking a pot shot at Klinnsy


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Carter-Vickers was on the Spurs bench today.


----------



## varsaku

TTFA accepted just US$12,500 for US victory tour games



> The United States Soccer Federation (USSF) arranged games against Trinidad and Tobago in Honolulu and San Antonio and stood to pocket millions from two sold out stadia, television rights from ESPN as well as other revenue streams including merchandising opportunities.
> 
> And, in return, the USSF, which is headed by FIFA vice-president Sunil Gulati, offered to meet only the cost for accommodation and inland transport for the Women Warriors as well as US$12,500 to go towards Trinidad and Tobagoâ€™s airfare.
> 
> Worse, after close to three months, there was no record that the USSF paid the US$12,500, as there was no sign of the money at the TTFAâ€™s headquarters.




I can't believe they would accept to play these games and not make sure they would atleast break even.


----------



## kingsboy11

Jordan Morris scored 2 goals for Stanford today in the NCAA championship game against Clemson.


----------



## DoyleG

varsaku said:


> TTFA accepted just US$12,500 for US victory tour games
> 
> I can't believe they would accept to play these games and not make sure they would atleast break even.




The USSF was likely hoping for that $200K from the State Tourism Commission to cover that. The USSF is now trying to sue the State of Hawaii for that amount but may get sued by the state as well.

The USSF and the Stadium Authority are both facing class-actions suits from fans for expenses incurred in traveling to the now cancelled game.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Well, maybe next time they'll do their ****ing due diligence.

This is embarrassing for the USSF on many levels.


----------



## Brock Anton

She may have a point (outside the whole 'foreign guys' thing, seriously wtf)... but Wambach talking about egos? That's ****ing rich.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Wambach gets way too much crap. When she retired, her tweet was "Forget me". 

People with huge egos don't say that. They hang on and want to be remembered. Her teammates love her and look up to her and emulate her. 

And she's right.


----------



## Brock Anton

spintheblackcircle said:


> Wambach gets way too much crap. When she retired, her tweet was "Forget me".
> 
> People with huge egos don't say that. They hang on and want to be remembered. Her teammates love her and look up to her and emulate her.
> 
> And she's right.




That tweet (and the deleting of her account) is part of a promotion with Gatorade.

And no, she's not right. She may have a point on Klinsmann not doing much to help the youth squads but her whole thing about the 'foreign guys' is just stupid and hypocritical (who is she talking about, the German-Americans? The Mexican-Americans? Mix and Aron? Nagbe? all of them?). They're just as American as Dempsey, Bradley or Howard... not to mention a number of them had American servicemen as fathers. I don't see her having a problem playing on the same team as Sydney Leroux.


----------



## Virtanen18

"Foreign guys"? What the ****? Abby voting for Trump or nah


----------



## spintheblackcircle

I think it's a stupid rule. You should play for the country you were born. Who cares about where your parents were from.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

spintheblackcircle said:


> I think it's a stupid rule. You should play for the country you were born. Who cares about where your parents were from.




If you're a kid born to American military personnel stationed in Berlin, you're not German, you're American.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> If you're a kid born to American military personnel stationed in Berlin, you're not German, you're American.




I'm not saying how it IS. I'm saying how it should be.


----------



## Ugmo

Speaking as someone who was born American in a foreign country (England), grew up mainly in the U.S. and has now been living in Europe again for nearly 20 years, I don't consider all those German-Americans to be truly American. Sorry. On paper they're American. Culturally they just aren't. Whether that's positive or negative is a different matter, but there is no question that a Tim Chandler or a Jermaine Jones have a completely different view on what it is to be American than Eddie Lewis or Landon Donovan. Or for that matter Justin Meran or Steven Beitashour or Diego Fagundez or even Gedion Zelalem.


----------



## Ugmo

Brock Anton said:


> And no, she's not right. She may have a point on Klinsmann not doing much to help the youth squads but her whole thing about the 'foreign guys' is just stupid and hypocritical (who is she talking about, the German-Americans? The Mexican-Americans? Mix and Aron? Nagbe? all of them?). They're just as American as Dempsey, Bradley or Howard... not to mention a number of them had American servicemen as fathers. I don't see her having a problem playing on the same team as Sydney Leroux.





Disagree. The German-Americans barely even speak English. Mix Diskerud's and Kevin Bacon's impressions of America come from their vacations.

The Mexican Americans and Nagbe at least basically grew up in the U.S. On paper, they're all "just as American" as each other. Culturally there are massive differences.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

Who gives a ****? Play the system in place as much as you can and win some ****ing games. That's all that matters.


----------



## Ugmo

IU Hawks fan said:


> Who gives a ****? Play the system in place as much as you can and win some ****ing games. That's all that matters.




Just responding to someone else's post.

Sheesh.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

I wasn't responding to you, just the whole subject. No need to get defensive.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

Chicago got a US Copa America game. Ah yeaaaaa


----------



## Ugmo

IU Hawks fan said:


> I wasn't responding to you, just the whole subject. No need to get defensive.




Actually for that matter, let's actually analyze the "who gives a ****?" sentiment. The problem is obviously that Klinsmann is sowing resentment among American players by calling up players who have no business being on the team - like Julian Green - or players who aren't that great - like Tim Chandler - just because they have a German upbringing.

On top of that, there's the issue that the U.S. has traditionally overperformed at soccer due to the American mindset. So it's questionable whether bringing in players who are equal to Americans in skill or only marginally better (again, Tim Chandler) but don't have that mindset, is a good strategy.

Either way, there is obviously some resentment among American players over this issue, so I don't think you can just sweep it under the rug by saying "Who gives a ****?"


----------



## Brock Anton

Ugmo said:


> Actually for that matter, let's actually analyze the "who gives a ****?" sentiment. The problem is obviously that Klinsmann is sowing resentment among American players by calling up players who have no business being on the team - like Julian Green - or players who aren't that great - like Tim Chandler - just because they have a German upbringing.
> 
> On top of that, there's the issue that the U.S. has traditionally overperformed at soccer due to the American mindset. So it's questionable whether bringing in players who are equal to Americans in skill or only marginally better (again, Tim Chandler) but don't have that mindset, is a good strategy.
> 
> Either way, there is obviously some resentment among American players over this issue, so I don't think you can just sweep it under the rug by saying "Who gives a ****?"




Which players are showing resentment towards Klinsmann for calling up German-Americans? Wambach doesn't count, because she has no clue what goes on inside the MNT locker room and neither does Donovan, because we all know whatever he says about Klinsmann feels more like pushing a narrative more than anything. 

What is this 'American mindset'... did Earnie Stewart, Tab Ramos, Thomas Dooley, Jeff Agoos, David Regis etc have it? They weren't 'true Americans', were they? Why does being born and raised in the U.S. matter? Just because Timmy Chandler is an average player with a questionable attitude doesn't mean every player not raised in the U.S. is a flight risk (not to mention that Bradley brought in Chandler not JK, but anyways). You're trying to tell me Jermaine Jones, Mix Diskerud and Terrence Boyd don't care about the national team/country? They're arguably three of the most 'American' guys in the pool. 

Listen I know you don't like Klinsmann, and neither do I, but this is literally the last thing you can rag on him for. Bringing in more talent into the pool is never a bad thing. Bora did it, Arena did it, Sampson did it, Bradley did it... why is it a point of reference when Klinsmann does it?


----------



## Ugmo

Jeff Agoos? Agoos grew up in Texas. Tab Ramos more or less grew up in New Jersey. Regis was brought in at the last minute and immediately sowed resentment as a result. Those are some bizarre examples you're using to make your point. Tom Dooley and Ernie Stewart are better examples, but they were brought in at a time when the average U.S.-developed player was awful and the program was in its infancy (and there was no domestic league to develop players).

Jermaine Jones, Mix Diskerud and Terrence Boyd... two of those guys can barely speak English. Doesn't mean they don't care about the team, but how in hell are they three of the most "American" guys on the team? Two of them had barely any contact whatsoever with the one parent who gave them their U.S. citizenship.

I'm far from a xenophobe and I'm far from a flag-waving nationalist. I've been living abroad so long I consider myself to be a human being rather than an American, but to act like all these guys who previously had barely any connection with the U.S. apart from a piece of paper with their name on it are some kind of lion-hearted, red-blooded Americans is silly. They're guys Klinsmann brought in from overseas because because of serendipitous bloodlines, and just because Abby Wambach is the only person who dares to say it in public doesn't mean she's the only American player thinking it. Players should be brought in solely according to what they've accomplished and are capable of, and that automatically rules out a bunch of the players JK has brought in at the expense of numerous domestically based players.

This has little to do with "expanding the talent pool." It's one thing to expand the pool. It's quite another thing to make boneheaded roster decisions based on where players grew up, and Klinsmann appears to have done that on numerous occasions - the most glaring example being when he replaced our best player ever with Julian freaking Green.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

I forgot that speaking English is a requirement for being American. 

Way to field an argument that goes against everything this nation stands for.


----------



## Ugmo

IU Hawks fan said:


> I forgot that speaking English is a requirement for being American.
> 
> Way to field an argument that goes against everything this nation stands for.




This isn't that ****ing complicated. No one is claiming they're not officially Americans.


----------



## Virtanen18

Players should be selected based on their talent level, not how patriotic they are to America. If there's an eligible player to play for the US with talent, it would be foolish for Jurgen to not bring him in. Disagree with this player or that player being selected? Sure. But Wambach lumping them all together as "foreign guys" and saying she doesn't think they should be on the team is beyond stupid.


----------



## Ugmo

I agree that those are very poor examples for Wambach to use because those are two of the German-Americans who have legitimately strengthened the team.


----------



## cutchemist42

Ugmo said:


> Actually for that matter, let's actually analyze the "who gives a ****?" sentiment. The problem is obviously that Klinsmann is sowing resentment among American players by calling up players who have no business being on the team - like Julian Green - or players who aren't that great - like Tim Chandler - just because they have a German upbringing.
> 
> On top of that, there's the issue that the U.S. has traditionally overperformed at soccer due to the American mindset. So it's questionable whether bringing in players who are equal to Americans in skill or only marginally better (again, Tim Chandler) but don't have that mindset, is a good strategy.
> 
> Either way, there is obviously some resentment among American players over this issue, so I don't think you can just sweep it under the rug by saying "Who gives a ****?"




Yeah Im agreeing with this. I mean, Landon has said similar stuff too before IIRC, and I bet this mindset exists amongst the various programs. Unless the German-American is clearly better, why have the hard-on for the German upbringing if you can get something similar from the American raised player?

Also, still like the IIHF's rules more on this stuff last I read them and contrasted them.


----------



## Brock Anton

Ugmo said:


> Jeff Agoos? Agoos grew up in Texas. Tab Ramos more or less grew up in New Jersey. Regis was brought in at the last minute and immediately sowed resentment as a result. Those are some bizarre examples you're using to make your point. Tom Dooley and Ernie Stewart are better examples, but they were brought in at a time when the average U.S.-developed player was awful and the program was in its infancy (and there was no domestic league to develop players).




So what constitutes someone being an American? Do they have to live here for a fixed time? Sorry about Agoos, that was an awful example, but besides him all of those players were born outside the U.S. to either one or less American parent. Yeah, players showed resentment towards Regis in 1998 because he was foreign and that he was 'taking their job' (you could also make the same argument on him that you did on Stewart/Dooley) but don't remember any resentment towards him in 2002. To your point on Stewart/Dooley, even with the improvement of the U.S. domestic player, our best player is still a 'foreign guy'. What does that say?



> Jermaine Jones, Mix Diskerud and Terrence Boyd... two of those guys can barely speak English. Doesn't mean they don't care about the team, but how in hell are they three of the most "American" guys on the team? Two of them had barely any contact whatsoever with the one parent who gave them their U.S. citizenship.




Who cares if they can't speak perfect English, is that some requirement to be a member of the MNT or something? Have you ever heard Terrence Boyd talk about the United States? Dude is more publicly proud to be an American than pretty much anyone else in the pool. Not to mention, suiting up for the U.S. made Jones become closer to his father than he ever was as a kid. 



> I'm far from a xenophobe and I'm far from a flag-waving nationalist. I've been living abroad so long I consider myself to be a human being rather than an American, but to act like all these guys who previously had barely any connection with the U.S. apart from a piece of paper with their name on it are some kind of lion-hearted, red-blooded Americans is silly. They're guys Klinsmann brought in from overseas because because of serendipitous bloodlines, and just because Abby Wambach is the only person who dares to say it in public doesn't mean she's the only American player thinking it. Players should be brought in solely according to what they've accomplished and are capable of, and that automatically rules out a bunch of the players JK has brought in at the expense of numerous domestically based players.




Again, what makes someone a 'red-blooded, lion-hearted American'? Okay, I'll bite. Which players, outside of Julian Green, that Klinsmann has called up don't deserve to be? Chandler? He's been pretty bad for the U.S., but the dude's a starter in the Bundesliga (a very good one at times). Williams? Again, it's not like he's riding the bench somewhere. Brooks? Nope. Alvarado? You'd probably have a point there, but he's still only 23, so there's room to grow for him. Orozco? I'm not his biggest fan, but he's actually been fairly decent for us. Jordan Morris? Oh wait, he's a white guy from Seattle. He doesn't count. 

You're... you're making me defend Klinsmann... I don't like this. 



> This has little to do with "expanding the talent pool." It's one thing to expand the pool. It's quite another thing to make boneheaded roster decisions based on where players grew up, and Klinsmann appears to have done that on numerous occasions - the most glaring example being when he replaced our best player ever with Julian freaking Green.




Donovan sucked for the first part of 2014. His play/form didn't earn a roster spot, end of story. Why assume that Green knocked Donovan off the team anyways? It could easily have been Brad Davis.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

spintheblackcircle said:


> I think it's a stupid rule. You should play for the country you were born. Who cares about where your parents were from.






spintheblackcircle said:


> I'm not saying how it IS. I'm saying how it should be.




I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. I know three military children born in Germany, a guy born in Papua New Guinea while his parents were on vacation, and a girl born in Mexico while her parents were on vacation. Culturally they're 100% American and all of their parents are American...and in the case of at least four of them they're not even entitled to citizenship of the nation that they were born in.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

Reminds of the King of the Hill where Hank discovers he's not a native Texan because he was born in the Yankee Stadium bathroom.


----------



## Ugmo

Brock Anton said:


> So what constitutes someone being an American? Do they have to live here for a fixed time? Sorry about Agoos, that was an awful example, but besides him all of those players were born outside the U.S. to either one or less American parent. Yeah, players showed resentment towards Regis in 1998 because he was foreign and that he was 'taking their job' (you could also make the same argument on him that you did on Stewart/Dooley) but don't remember any resentment towards him in 2002. To your point on Stewart/Dooley, even with the improvement of the U.S. domestic player, our best player is still a 'foreign guy'. What does that say?




What's this debate even about? No one is arguing they aren't technically American or qualified to play for the U.S. national team. But you literally stated that a couple of them are "arguably three of the most 'American' guys in the pool" - I mean, you can't state that they're all equally American and then state that three of them are "more" American despite them not even having grown up in the U.S. and barely being able to speak English. Have you ever seen a German interview with Jones or Boyd? I speak both languages fluently and let me tell you, both of those dudes are super German. And again, that's fine as long as they are psyched about playing for the USMNT, but it's just bizarre to argue that they are as culturally American as players who literally grew up in America. 




Brock Anton said:


> Who cares if they can't speak perfect English, is that some requirement to be a member of the MNT or something?




No, but that's a nice strawman, as I never said anything about it being a requirement. This discussion was about how culturally American they are.



Brock Anton said:


> Have you ever heard Terrence Boyd talk about the United States? Dude is more publicly proud to be an American than pretty much anyone else in the pool. Not to mention, suiting up for the U.S. made Jones become closer to his father than he ever was as a kid.




Yeah, I have. He played for my club Rapid Wien here in Vienna for a couple of seasons. I've read tons of interviews with him. I'm glad he's excited about playing for the team. That's the kind of guy we want. But just because he's excited about it doesn't make him more American than players who have undergone their entire development in the U.S. Boyd has spent barely any time whatsoever in the U.S. and IIRC had almost no contact with his American parent while growing up. Doesn't mean I don't want him on the team, but let's face facts: culturally he's far less American than, say, Diego Fagundez, even though one is qualified to play for the U.S. and the other isn't.




Brock Anton said:


> Again, what makes someone a 'red-blooded, lion-hearted American'? Okay, I'll bite. Which players, outside of Julian Green, that Klinsmann has called up don't deserve to be? Chandler? He's been pretty bad for the U.S., but the dude's a starter in the Bundesliga (a very good one at times). Williams? Again, it's not like he's riding the bench somewhere. Brooks? Nope. Alvarado? You'd probably have a point there, but he's still only 23, so there's room to grow for him. Orozco? I'm not his biggest fan, but he's actually been fairly decent for us. Jordan Morris? Oh wait, he's a white guy from Seattle. He doesn't count.





Those are two different issues:

a) are they culturally American and
b) are they deserving of playing with the USMNT based on their play

a) is obvious. You're talking about guys who have spent hardly any time whatsoever in the U.S. over the course of their lives. Of course they don't have a strong cultural link with the U.S. Is this even debatable? These aren't even guys who were brought up in American/International schools abroad. They're basically regular Germans who happen to have an American passport. Would you argue that Justin Meram is more Iraqi than American? Listen, I'm not saying we have to have this discussion at all, but if you're going to, at least let's be honest about it.

b) should also be obvious. If a player sucks for the USMNT, then he shouldn't keep getting playing time from Klinsmann, and that applies to Chandler just as much as it applies to Mix Diskerud.






Brock Anton said:


> Donovan sucked for the first part of 2014. His play/form didn't earn a roster spot, end of story. Why assume that Green knocked Donovan off the team anyways? It could easily have been Brad Davis.




Please. Donovan has spent his entire career drifting in and out of form (and motivation), yet on the big stage he has _always_ been there. You don't have to go full ****** [apparently censored, but it's the Tropic Thunder quote] with this "you're making me defend Klinsmann" nonsense.


----------



## DoyleG




----------



## Virtanen18

It's okay cause LeRoux speaks American, not Canadian.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Only thing sadder than Donovan saying Fabian Johnson is as good as any player in the Bundesliga is his (and others') attempt to devise an economy of Americanness. 

International football is a farce. Patriotism has as small a place in the sport as it does anywhere else. Enjoy the matches and wave your flags if you must. Devise a stronger youth developmental program because it's more sustainable and far better for the sport in your country and as a whole than relying on kids who grew up in other countries, not because its products would be somehow more American.


----------



## Juve

Brienne Of Tarth needs to shut her mouth. She always likes to spew utter crap, it's also cute considering her teammate is Canadian born.


----------



## chasespace

I agree with the sentiment that players who are only playing for the USMNT because they wouldn't make their native country's team shouldn't be brought in. Players like Zelalem, CCV, and Nagbe are the ones I love to have. May not have been born here but identify as an American and love to represent the team because of the crest not for the chance to play internationally.


----------



## Brock Anton

Jesse Gonzalez apparently accepts U.S. callup... that's, really unexpected. 



> Gonzalez has accepted a call-up to the U.S. national team's January training camp, sources have confirmed to Goal USA. The 20-year-old North Carolina native spent his formative years living in Texas and playing for the Mexican youth national team setup, but his excellent play for FC Dallas in the second half of the 2015 season turned heads and attracted the attention of Jurgen Klinsmann, who could be ready to pry the prospect away from 'El Tri'.




http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1679...-20-gk-jesse-gonzalez-accepts-us?ICID=HP_BN_1


----------



## chasespace

Brock Anton said:


> Jesse Gonzalez apparently accepts U.S. callup... that's, really unexpected.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1679...-20-gk-jesse-gonzalez-accepts-us?ICID=HP_BN_1




I thought Mexico already capped him with their national team?

That being said, getting one of the strongest young American keepers back into the system is never a bad thing. It'll be interesting to see how he and Steffen turn out.

But this probably means Hamid or Johnson will never get the chance to showcase their talents on the national level as by the time Guzan hangs them up Gonzalez and Steffen will be ready to step into that #1 spot


----------



## Plato

Friedel is the new U-19 manager.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football..._the_day&ns_source=facebook&ns_linkname=sport


----------



## Big McLargehuge

chasespace said:


> I thought Mexico already capped him with their national team?
> 
> That being said, getting one of the strongest young American keepers back into the system is never a bad thing. It'll be interesting to see how he and Steffen turn out.
> 
> But this probably means Hamid or Johnson will never get the chance to showcase their talents on the national level as by the time Guzan hangs them up Gonzalez and Steffen will be ready to step into that #1 spot




He hasn't played a game for Mexico's senior squad, so until he gets cap tied he's still very much a free agent in that regard.


Get him into a game, Klinnsy.


Johnson likely continues to be the odd-man out going forward and that elicits no reaction from me whatsoever...kinda sucks for him given that he _had_ Jamaican eligibility until we cap-tied him, but oh well. I never really saw him as more than a #3 on the NT anyway.


----------



## Basement Cat

Good to hear that Miazga, Finlay, Tchani, Trapp will all be there. Lletget has to be called up to IMO.

Notable vets missing that can still help us (IMO): Dempsey, Omar G.

Other vets confirmed to be out and I don't really care: Evans, Wondo, Beckerman, Zusi

Looking forward to seeing the full roster.


----------



## bluesfan94

Big McLargehuge said:


> He hasn't played a game for Mexico's senior squad, so until he gets cap tied he's still very much a free agent in that regard.
> 
> 
> Get him into a game, Klinnsy.
> 
> 
> Johnson likely continues to be the odd-man out going forward and that elicits no reaction from me whatsoever...kinda sucks for him given that he _had_ Jamaican eligibility until we cap-tied him, but oh well. I never really saw him as more than a #3 on the NT anyway.




I actually don't think we need to cap tie him. I think it's a one time switch thing.


----------



## Ugmo

SANTArelli25 said:


> It's okay cause LeRoux speaks American, not Canadian.




She moved to Arizona when she was 15. Kind of different from a late-20s Jermaine Jones joining the USMNT (not that I was opposed to that).


----------



## Brock Anton

January camp squad. Unattached FC has returned. 



> GOALKEEPERS: Bill Hamid (D.C. United), Luis Robles (New York Red Bulls).
> 
> DEFENDERS: Kellyn Acosta* (FC Dallas), Matt Besler (Sporting Kansas City), Matt Miazga* (New York Red Bulls), Eric Miller* (Montreal Impact), Tim Parker* (Vancouver Whitecaps), Marc Pelosi* (San Jose Earthquakes), Matt Polster* (Chicago Fire).
> 
> MIDFIELDERS: Fatai Alashe* (San Jose Earthquakes), Michael Bradley (Toronto FC), Mix Diskerud (New York City FC), Jermaine Jones (unattached), Darlington Nagbe (Portland Timbers), Lee Nguyen (New England Revolution), Tony Tchani (Columbus Crew), Wil Trapp* (Columbus Crew).
> 
> FORWARDS: Jozy Altidore (Toronto FC), Ethan Finlay (Columbus Crew), Jerome Kiesewetter* (VfB Stuttgart), Jordan Morris* (unattached), Khiry Shelton* (New York City FC), Gyasi Zardes (L.A. Galaxy).


----------



## kingsboy11

Jesse Gonzalez turns down invite. Jones still getting called up. No Lletget either.


----------



## Brock Anton

Looks like Jesse Gonzalez is going to stick with Mexico instead of switching to the U.S. as he accepted a call from the Mexican U-23's. Can't really blame him, he's been involved with the Mexican setup for a while and probably feels comfortable there.


----------



## Basement Cat

Biggest gripes:

No Lletget, Feilhaber, Hedges, Dax
Jones is called in

In all seriousness, why can't there be two camps? One for the senior squad and one for the u-23s. Keep Miazga and Morris in the senior camp but obviously play them in the playoff game for the Olympics.


----------



## MurrayBannerman

Anyone else going to MNT v IRL on the 23rd?


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

MurrayBannerman said:


> Anyone else going to MNT v IRL on the 23rd?




It's a women's game.


----------



## MurrayBannerman

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> It's a women's game.




And I'm the worst. Still, question stands.


----------



## bluesfan94

I'm going to the she believes cup games in Nashville in march


----------



## Brock Anton

Speaking of which, that has to be the worst name ever for a tournament. Should have just revived the U.S. Cup.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

She Believes Cup?

*pukes*

Who names this crap?


----------



## JunglePete

Andrew Farrell to meet with Peru coach. That'd be a big loss right there for USMNT....


----------



## varsaku

I think he would be able to really help out USMNT


----------



## Brodeur

MurrayBannerman said:


> Anyone else going to MNT v IRL on the 23rd?




Game is in San Diego and I would have gone, but I had a previous trip planned before I found out. Would have been fun to see the men or women's national team, and I could have made an obligatory joke about "championship football team playing in San Diego!"


----------



## Brock Anton

varsaku said:


> I think he would be able to really help out USMNT




More from Benny, and he's 100% right. 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...benny-feilhaber-major-league-soccer/79038792/


----------



## Ugmo

Yep, he's absolutely right. It's not even that JÃ¼rgen doesn't call in MLS players... it's that their club form doesn't seem to have any bearing on whom he calls in. I get that every coach has their favorites (like Richie Williams on the Bruce Arena teams), but with JÃ¼rgen it is particularly egregious.


----------



## Brock Anton

We really do have the worst fans in the world. 



> Phil Baki ‏@bakiBalboa
> Dortmund local media giving more attention to Pulisic being on the bench than US media. I hope he goes to Croatia. We don't deserve him.




Yes, because hyping every top prospect to kingdom come before they've done something has worked to perfection in the past. ****ing pro/rel zealots man.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

There are plenty of US media giving him attention.


----------



## bluesfan94

SI just wrote a piece on him


----------



## Big McLargehuge

I've heard Pulisic's name mentioned at least a dozen times since the calendar turned over.

The reason Morris is getting so much attention is because there isn't the Adu factor with him, his floor is already good enough to be a solid USMNT player. He hasn't gotten anything near the Zelalem ceiling hype.

Also most of the Morris stuff seems to be coming from MLS-geared media...so of course they're going to talk about him. He's going to be playing a big role on arguably the most popular domestic team...Pulisic's decision affects only the USMNT in that regard, so expecting MLS podcasts to be talking about a guy who has nothing to do with the MLS is a bit off.


----------



## Brock Anton

The defending on Carli's first goal was hilarious. I'm pretty sure I was closer to her than the defender marking her was.


----------



## MurrayBannerman

Well that was a good game to go to.


----------



## Deficient Mode

MurrayBannerman said:


> Well that was a good game to go to.




Imagine getting paid to fly to San Diego in the middle of the winter to watch a football match. Not fair at all.


----------



## HajdukSplit

Brock Anton said:


> We really do have the worst fans in the world.
> 
> Yes, because hyping every top prospect to kingdom come before they've done something has worked to perfection in the past. ****ing pro/rel zealots man.




Responding to the tweet...

Croatia have already approached him a couple times and he doesn't seem to have any interest, his dad is American born as well which probably hurts Croatia's chances too, this isn't some first generation American with immigrant parents pushing him to play for CRO. I assume he probably doesn't have too much connection with Croatia unlike the Euro counterparts from Germany/Switzerland/Austria who can go there at anytime within hours. He does have a Croatian passport though and the Croatian technical director really rates him saying he will be a star


----------



## MurrayBannerman

Deficient Mode said:


> Imagine getting paid to fly to San Diego in the middle of the winter to watch a football match. Not fair at all.




Had to do like an hour of work, hah.


----------



## Ugmo

I guess because I was traveling over the past few weeks I missed that Jason Kreis is with the national team right now. Hmm, I wonder what the significance of that is.


----------



## Brock Anton

Ugmo said:


> I guess because I was traveling over the past few weeks I missed that Jason Kreis is with the national team right now. Hmm, I wonder what the significance of that is.




Hopefully he stays on as an assistant and is Jurgen's successor (sooner rather than later).


----------



## Brock Anton

Leroux announces she's pregnant and will miss the Olympics (I had my doubts she'd have made the team anyways). Not really a big loss for the WNT, she's done nothing for over the past year and has been passed by Press, Horan, Dunn, McCaffrey and now probably Pugh. 

On a side note though, with Syd as the mother and Dom Dwyer as the father that child has the potential to be the most obnoxious kid ever.


----------



## kingsboy11

Brock Anton said:


> Leroux announces she's pregnant and will miss the Olympics (I had my doubts she'd have made the team anyways). Not really a big loss for the WNT, she's done nothing for over the past year and has been passed by Press, Horan, Dunn, McCaffrey and now probably Pugh.
> 
> On a side note though, with Syd as the mother and Dom Dwyer as the father that child has the potential to be the most obnoxious kid ever.




She saw the writing on the wall


----------



## Starsfan24

Olympic Roster. No Engen (Saw that coming) and no HAO.


----------



## Brock Anton

Why do I think we're rushing Pugh? I realize she's very talented, but in no way do I feel she's ready for the senior level. The midfield and forwards are very, very young, dropping a player like O'Reilly seems really stupid to me. Not like she still isn't making an impact either, I still find her to be more useful than Heath.


----------



## John Price

The World Champs deserve better.
A lot of them complain and rightfully so. About pay. About hotel conditions at the NWSL (remember Alex Morgan going off on a rant on twitter about KC hotels). About field conditions. They're world champions. They should literally be sleeping on gold beds.
To some, this behavior may seem diva, but to others, it's just respect.


----------



## Brock Anton

Mike Emrick said:


> The World Champs deserve better.
> A lot of them complain and rightfully so. About pay. About hotel conditions at the NWSL (remember Alex Morgan going off on a rant on twitter about KC hotels). About field conditions. They're world champions. They should literally be sleeping on gold beds.
> To some, this behavior may seem diva, but to others, it's just respect.




They've got a legitimate gripe when it comes to the fact that they play most of their matches on turf while the MNT never do (they still overblow it, but they DO have a very valid point). The players have a pretty clear case of discrimination there, but instead they decide to harp on the danger of playing on turf, which is dumb because it gives the USSF a simple out (look at any study regarding injuries on turf vs. grass). But spare me on the whole pay thing. If you're on the WNT, you're making a six figure salary, that's before endorsements, not exactly peanuts here. So them crying poverty/inequality doesn't really fly with me. I'm more concerned about the players on the bottom of the totem pole in the NWSL who make less than $10k a year, THEY deserve higher pay, not the players already making a healthy living. That's a place where the WNT players could/should use their power to make a change, but they don't/won't. Probably because it does nothing to benefit them, or their bank accounts. Everything about the NWSL is based around the WNT and everyone else gets thrown aside.... which leads me to this....

.... most of the WNT stars could give a single **** about the NWSL, it's nothing but something to keep fitness before the next WNT camp, or at least they seemingly treat it that way. The fact that the USSF let them get away with their bull after they won the World Cup was awful. The NWSL clubs were told that they'd get their returning WNT players on a specific date, but when that date neared most of the players claimed 'fatigue' and were given extra time off from the federation.... okay fine, that's fair....but they weren't too 'fatigued' to jet around the country making appearances on late shows and award shows while their teammates making next to nothing were fighting for the playoffs and clubs were left to answer questions from upset fans who bought tickets expecting to see the WNT players. Of course, on those said appearances, they had the opportunity to give the NWSL a plug, and of course, they didn't. They instead talked about their upcoming Victory Tour, which (shocker) they would get a cut of the ticket sales from. As for the whole 'bedbug' incident in KC, yes, bedbugs are gross, but they can happen literally anywhere, even at the finest 5-star hotel. Not to mention, Alex Morgan wasn't even there when the incident happened, she only used her power to publicly shame the league about something they really couldn't control. 

Yes, I enjoy watching them play and find many of them to be great role models for young girls, but c'mon... they seem to do a lot of complaining, but they rarely bring up any real practical solutions. So I don't think it's wrong to point out that some of them can act like divas at times.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

I'm taking a friend who has never seen a soccer game to the game today...this may be the worst possible game to teach someone with 

Still, as an American Icelandophile and Galaxy season ticket holder who has never been to a national team game...I can't pass up USA-Iceland.


----------



## Savant

Big McLargehuge said:


> I'm taking a friend who has never seen a soccer game to the game today...this may be the worst possible game to teach someone with
> 
> Still, as an American Icelandophile and Galaxy season ticket holder who has never been to a national team game...I can't pass up USA-Iceland.




If you guys don't have a good time, you did something wrong. Alcohol can fill in the gaps of what you may be missing.


----------



## Brock Anton

EPB to Porto?


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Brock Anton said:


> EPB to Porto?





Weren't Juve interested in him a little while back?


----------



## Brock Anton

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Weren't Juve interested in him a little while back?




Yeah, it was heavily rumored back in 2014 but SKC didn't want to sell.


----------



## Brock Anton




----------



## kingsboy11

interesting lineup to say the least


----------



## Brock Anton

I'm assuming that's a 4-4-2 with Jones-Bradley central, which is all sorts of meh.


----------



## Basement Cat

Actually a solid lineup if it's a 4-2-3-1 and not the 4-4-2

Jones in is a minus though


----------



## Brock Anton

Basement Cat said:


> Actually a solid lineup if it's a 4-2-3-1 and not the 4-4-2
> 
> Jones in is a minus though




You would think a 4-2-3-1 would be perfect here with Nguyen as a #10 and Bradley sitting deeper, but with Klinsmann's insistence of making Bradley a #10, I doubt it is.


----------



## KingLB

I hate that Orozco is still seeing mins...in my mind its cause Miazga left camp.

Like Acosta and Finlay getting time as well. Though hope a poor showing out of position doesn't set Acosta back. Many people wrote him off after a poor showing at the U20's where he was forced into the LB spot.


----------



## Savant

Very happy for Robles but really wanted to see Parker instead of Orozco


----------



## Brock Anton

Good god Jones.


----------



## Brock Anton

Uh, Besler....


----------



## kingsboy11

Jones just doesn't have it anymore. 

And what the hell was Besler doing on the goal?


----------



## varsaku

wow this attendance


----------



## Brock Anton

Zardes bro


----------



## kingsboy11

varsaku said:


> wow this attendance





Us weak Californians don't exactly know how to deal with rain like this


----------



## Brock Anton

Nguyen has been excellent.


----------



## kingsboy11

Well isn't that a lovely start


----------



## Brock Anton

Besler is not having a good day.


----------



## Brock Anton

Kiesewetter has been very, very good.


----------



## Brock Anton

Defensively we were a horror show, but that was the first time in a long ass time that I actually had fun watching us attack.


----------



## kingsboy11

Nguyen and Kiessewetter looked really good today. Defense is laughable though. Can't blame any of the goals on Robles.


----------



## Fro

didn't get to watch, but congrats to Finley and Tchani for getting their first caps...


----------



## Big McLargehuge

varsaku said:


> wow this attendance





To be fair I don't think they even sold tickets outside of one section on that side of the field and the end filled out a bit better within a few minutes.

Sparsely attended to be sure, the rain definitely kept some people away and this was a game that simply wasn't marketed (I seriously didn't know both games were at the StubHub Center until a week ago and I'm a season ticket holder). I doubt Friday's match-up with Canada is much better.

Entertaining game to be at for sure, though not always for the proper reasons. That defense is a horror show.

Highlight was Finley falling on his ass about 5 times in the first 10 minutes...someone get that man a pair of cleats.


----------



## MurrayBannerman

That downpour in the first few minutes was brutal. Glad I had a raincoat.


----------



## Deficient Mode

MurrayBannerman said:


> That downpour in the first few minutes was brutal. Glad I had a raincoat.




Completely unveiled brag.


----------



## Basement Cat

Would love to see this midfield trio get a shot against Canada:

Nguyen at 10 with Nagbe and Bradley as dual #8s (one will have to sit back for the other so chemistry needs to be work on).


----------



## MurrayBannerman

Just an FYI. I'm going to be at a lot of NT games, so if you're going, let me know.


----------



## Brock Anton

Holden officially retiring today. A damn shame really.


----------



## kingsboy11

Outside of Landon Donovan, Stu Holden has been my favorite player on the National team and has been a big inspiration to me. I was absolutely heartbroken to see him re injure his knee in the Gold Cup final after he worked so hard to get back to where he once was. It's a shame and hope he does well in his future endeavors


----------



## chasespace

Hadn't seen this until today but the US Soccer federation is suing the union that represents the USWNT

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/04/s...team-in-federal-court.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1


----------



## Brock Anton

So basically the USSF is going to court to prove that the MOU negotiated in 2013 is legally binding (or not). By the sounds of it, I fail to see how the PA thinks they can get out of it before 12/31. The former head of the PA signed the document and admitted under oath that such an agreement exists. 

Seriously though, both sides just need to shut up and negotiate a damn CBA. This **** has gone on long enough.


----------



## John Price

USA has a 35 year winning streak against Canada. Suffice it to say it's not ending tomorrow. Beat our northern neighbors.


----------



## varsaku




----------



## MurrayBannerman

Bruh


----------



## Savant

Bingham
Birnbaum
Acosta
Jones
Besler
Bradley
Diskerud
Zardes
Nguyen
Morris
Altidore


----------



## John Price

Close call there. Lucky it wasn't pk.


----------



## Brock Anton

Jones has been a disaster at CB. I don't get the point in having him there in a meaningless game. Give Parker or Birnbaum a go.


----------



## Brock Anton

I feel bad for Vitoria's face there. Ouch.


----------



## Brock Anton

That's what Finlay can do. Great ball.


----------



## Brock Anton

Birnbaum is a guy who I think may have played his way onto the squad. He played quite well at RB (and had to cover for Jones half the time). He's also a guy you can bring on late if you need a goal on a set piece or need to hold onto a lead, he's a beast in the air.


----------



## KingLB

Brock Anton said:


> Birnbaum is a guy who I think may have played his way onto the squad. He played quite well at RB (and had to cover for Jones half the time). He's also a guy you can bring on late if you need a goal on a set piece or need to hold onto a lead, he's a beast in the air.




Meh, still needs to step up this year in DC. Likely woulda been behind Miazga if he was there.

Stop playing Jones. Anywhere.

US really needs a player that can distribute. I wish Klinys would play players in their proper position. Nagbe needs to be in the center....


----------



## Savant

Really bummed to not see Parker


----------



## Brock Anton

Savant said:


> Really bummed to not see Parker




Agreed. Just no point in playing Jones 90 at CB, or playing him at all for that matter.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

This Jones thing is getting ridiculous. Playing him out of position in a game like this...what purpose does that _possibly_ serve? Shouldn't a non-FIFA friendly against Canada be the ideal time to test if the kids are good enough?


On a related note, I was really excited to see Nagbe playing full 90s in his proper position over the past week...I guess I should have known Klinnsy better than that.


----------



## chasespace

Finlay deserves a spot in the full squad


----------



## Big McLargehuge

chasespace said:


> Finlay deserves a spot in the full squad




I'm not sure 'falling down every time he changes directions' is the most necessary skill the USMNT needs, but there was enough good to make him worth another look.


----------



## Fro

Finley has the speed to stay up...would be great for him and Trapp to stick around...


----------



## chasespace

I also like what Tchani brings. He's the bigger, stronger version of Jones


----------



## John Price

Happy to see Pulisic getting first team action at Borussia Dortmund. Can only get better from here


----------



## Ugmo

Mike Emrick said:


> Happy to see Pulisic getting first team action at Borussia Dortmund. Can only get better from here




This might sound weird, but I hope Klinsmann leaves him alone for a while. I'd like to see him concentrate on establishing himself at Dortmund. There is plenty of time for him to worry about the national team later (unless of course Croatia tries to headhunt him or something, if that's still possible).


----------



## Savant

Ugmo said:


> This might sound weird, but I hope Klinsmann leaves him alone for a while. I'd like to see him concentrate on establishing himself at Dortmund. There is plenty of time for him to worry about the national team later (unless of course Croatia tries to headhunt him or something, if that's still possible).




... and that is why you get him in ASAP


----------



## Brock Anton

Ugmo said:


> This might sound weird, but I hope Klinsmann leaves him alone for a while. I'd like to see him concentrate on establishing himself at Dortmund. There is plenty of time for him to worry about the national team later (unless of course Croatia tries to headhunt him or something, if that's still possible).




Maybe, but I've seen nothing that would make me even think he had any interest in Croatia. He only got the Croatian citizenship so he could go to Dortmund before he turned 18. But I agree though, I'd rather seem him stay with Dortmund than go sit on the bench in Guatemala right now. Maybe bring him in with the U-23's for the Olympic playoff, but other than that, let him stay.


----------



## John Price

Hope solo wants no part of the Olympics because of zika which is probably a wise personal choice. Until that virus is contained keep our girls away. I know it sucks but this is the reality.


----------



## MurrayBannerman

Mike Emrick said:


> Hope solo wants no part of the Olympics because of zika which is probably a wise personal choice. Until that virus is contained keep our girls away. I know it sucks but this is the reality.




Keep everyone away. Only the IOC would be sending tons of athletes into a pandemic...


----------



## Brock Anton

Mike Emrick said:


> Hope solo wants no part of the Olympics because of zika which is probably a wise personal choice. Until that virus is contained keep our girls away. I know it sucks but this is the reality.




The situation regarding the virus isn't really going to change though, also nobody seems to really know that much about it. Since the Olympics aren't going to be cancelled, the best thing they could do (at least for the soccer players) would be to drop Manaus as a venue. 

As for the team, if Solo is 100% serious about not going due to the virus, which is completely fine and respectable (as much as I can't stand her, I can't fault her for thinking this), I'd rather she drop herself from the team after qualifying so they can have ample time to get used to playing with either Naeher or Harris. No point in her playing the prep games if she's not going to be there.


----------



## DoyleG

Brock Anton said:


> The situation regarding the virus isn't really going to change though, also nobody seems to really know that much about it. Since the Olympics aren't going to be cancelled, the best thing they could do (at least for the soccer players) would be to drop Manaus as a venue.




Why not take it out of Brazil then? No part of the country is immune from mosquito-born disease.


----------



## Brock Anton

Ellis has a striker playing defensive midfield, she just out-Klinsmann'd Klinsmann.


----------



## Brock Anton

Wait, so the left side has been god awful today and Ellis subs out the two players on the right? Logic, where are you?


----------



## Brock Anton

My god do we have the refs in our back pockets. Every damn time we face some sort of adversity, we get a magic PK. Enough of this garbage.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

Just saw it; pretty crappy call.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

DoyleG said:


> Why not take it out of Brazil then? No part of the country is immune from mosquito-born disease.




The concerned mosquito's preferred habitat includes all of Florida and the entire Gulf Coast region all the way to Brownsville, TX. And though less common there it also exists in the entire Southeastern sector of the U.S. all the way to D.C. as well as big chunks of inland California. 

Given the fact that there's a major and steady flow of people and goods back and forth between the U.S. and the Caribbean and South America, it doesn't strike me as far-fetched that Zika virus is already in the U.S. and bound to spread further in the U.S.


----------



## John Price

Noted NWSL Washington Spirit star Crystal Dunn scores first for the Americans


----------



## John Price

The last time Canada beat the USA, you got to go all the way back to March 2001.


----------



## Brock Anton

While it was expected, I don't understand for the life of me why you play your best XI in a meaningless game. Ellis is only asking for somebody to get hurt. This was the perfect opportunity to see how the likes of Dunn, McCaffrey, Sonnett, Mewis etc. play against quality opposition.


----------



## Brock Anton

Tancredi is the female equivalent of Rafa Marquez.


----------



## John Price

Canadians just being physical out there today. Disgraceful. 

Both Tancredi and Belanger with hard tackles.


----------



## Brock Anton

Looks like we're getting invisible and useless Heath today. She is so damn frustrating.


----------



## Brock Anton

Our best player is a 17-year old, full stop. Pugh is unreal.


----------



## John Price

USA is unstoppable in this CONCACAF championship.


----------



## Brock Anton

Mike Emrick said:


> USA is unstoppable in this CONCACAF championship.




Not really saying much... We'd probably be able to qualify fairly easily using our U-20's.


----------



## Savant

Pulisic started for Dortmund today.


----------



## kingsboy11

U.S gets drawn into a group with Columbia, Costa Rica and Paraguay for Copa America


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Mike Emrick said:


> USA is unstoppable in this CONCACAF championship.




I'd be seriously concerned if that weren't the case.

You never want to take things for granted, but...yeah.

Pugh is insane.


----------



## bluesfan94

Are people more excited for Pulisic or Pugh?


----------



## Brock Anton

bluesfan94 said:


> Are people more excited for Pulisic or Pugh?




Tough question really. I'd probably say Pulisic just because he's a bit of an anomaly. A 17-year old American getting minutes at a massive European club is unheard of. The WNT has had a few players of Pugh's ability/potential as teenagers over the years. It's kind of seen as, well, we've got another potential star for the next 10+ years. 

If/when Pulisic appears for the U.S. senior team, the hype train will probably go off the rails like Julian Green's debut, but x10.


----------



## MurrayBannerman

I'm glad DM got me to board the hype train early.


----------



## MurrayBannerman




----------



## Big McLargehuge

Those leaked kits are ****ing disgusting. Nike being Nike.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

New crest is officially official.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

It's not the one I would have chosen, but it is a definite upgrade.


----------



## MurrayBannerman

Am a fan. Of course I was on the other side of the field level for all the Google VR video. Could have been virtual Murray's time to shine.


----------



## Bakayoko Ono

The US Copa America kits, ladies and gentlemen.


----------



## MurrayBannerman

Top one is good. Bottom one looks like a dri-fit, training kit.


----------



## chasespace

Memphis The Pie said:


> The US Copa America kits, ladies and gentlemen.




Didn't know we were playing polo this year


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Top one is boring. What the hell is up with the shade of blue? Mini stripes are stupid unless you're an inch away from the damn thing.

The bottom one is **** and whoever designed it should be flogged. I'm still waiting for someone at Nike to point out where the black is in the US flag or on any of our crests. Standard Nike BFBS.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

Both suck.


----------



## kingsboy11

These jerseys suck


----------



## Ugmo

The bright side is that they don't suck as much as the new Crew away jerseys.


----------



## Virtanen18

The bottom one makes the top one look like a masterpiece even though they're both trash.


----------



## Brock Anton

Ugmo said:


> The bright side is that they don't suck as much as the new Crew away jerseys.




Well, we can't confirm that yet. Nike could still go with the neon green socks again.


----------



## Hackett

Top shirt looks fine. Nothing outstanding but nothing too appalling either.

I would say the same for the black one if they just stick to one damn color for the sleeves. Actually, on second thought, it still wouldn't be as nice as the white one.


----------



## Brock Anton

> GOALKEEPERS (4): David Bingham (San Jose Earthquakes; 0/0), Brad Guzan (Aston Villa; 9/0), Tim Howard (Everton FC; 30/0), William Yarbrough (Club Leon; 0/0)
> 
> DEFENDERS (9): Ventura Alvarado (Club America; 0/0), Matt Besler (Sporting Kansas City; 8/0), Steve Birnbaum (D.C. United; 0/0), John Brooks (Hertha Berlin; 0/0), Geoff Cameron (Stoke City; 15/1), Edgar Castillo (Monterrey; 4/0), Omar Gonzalez (Pachuca; 8/0), Michael Orozco (Club Tijuana; 4/1), DeAndre Yedlin (Sunderland; 0/0)
> 
> MIDFIELDERS (8 ): Kyle Beckerman (Real Salt Lake; 6/0), Alejandro Bedoya (Nantes FC; 3/0), Michael Bradley (Toronto FC; 26/5), Mix Diskerud (New York City FC; 3/0), Ethan Finlay (Columbus Crew SC; 0/0), Fabian Johnson (Borussia Monchengladbach; 11/1), Darlington Nagbe (Portland Timbers FC; 2/0), Lee Nguyen (New England Revolution; 0/0)
> 
> FORWARDS (5): Jozy Altidore (Toronto FC; 28/12), Clint Dempsey (Seattle Sounders FC; 34/13), Chris Wondolowski (San Jose Earthquakes; 0/0), Bobby Wood (Union Berlin; 2/1), Gyasi Zardes (LA Galaxy; 2/1)




Not only is Edgar Castillo back out of nowhere.... he's apparently the starter at LB.


----------



## Fro

happy Finley is back...


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Fabian Johnson's club claims he's injured. Is this happening again?


----------



## John Price




----------



## Fro

US Soccer getting a lot of flack it seems for ticket prices...Columbus not filling up as quickly for Guatamala, many (me included) not really thrilled that it's $60 for nosebleeds...


----------



## Big McLargehuge

I won't argue the price thing, but...come on...there's no such thing as a "nosebleed" at MAPFRE Stadium.


----------



## Fro

lol...fair...but when you typically sit 3 rows from the field in the Nordeke, it sure as hell feels like it!


----------



## John Price

Big game for u23 boys tonight.


----------



## Bure80

Slowly Klinsmann should consider Christian Pulisic for the mens team.
Made his debut for Dortmund this year as the 8 youngest player in Bundesliga history ever. Remembers me alot of the young Mario GÃ¶tze. Can be the first US soccer Star. As BVB supporter i see him more talanted as Marco Reus in the same age. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQbCq8km_Lw


----------



## Basement Cat

Bure80 said:


> Slowly Klinsmann should consider Christian Pulisic for the mens team.
> Made his debut for Dortmund this year as the 8 youngest player in Bundesliga history ever. Remembers me alot of the young Mario GÃ¶tze. Can be the first US soccer Star. As BVB supporter i see him more talanted as Marco Reus in the same age.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQbCq8km_Lw




He is considering him very strongly. Pulisic will make his debut next week if he gets over his illness.


----------



## Brock Anton

U-23's XI for the first leg. 



> Horvath; Acosta, Miazga, Parker, Miller; Trapp Polster, Hyndman, Gil; Rodriguez, Morris




I have no expectations for this group.


----------



## kingsboy11

These jerseys look awful on the field as well


----------



## Brock Anton

Gil grabs an early goal completely against the run of play. Massive road goal.


----------



## Brock Anton

kingsboy11 said:


> These jerseys look awful on the field as well




Even worse, we're wearing black in 90 degree heat. Who in the hell at Nike thought black was a good idea?


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Huge road goal.


And yeah...this whole kit is a disaster on numerous levels. ****ing Nike.


----------



## Basement Cat

Huge road goal!!! Keep it up.



Brock Anton said:


> Even worse, we're wearing black in 90 degree heat. Who in the hell at Nike thought black was a good idea?




I agree with this sentiment, but to be fair Im sure there's a huge difference between what they're made of rather than a $10 black t-shirt we wear in the summer.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Black is black. I'm sure the jerseys breathe very well, but unless they somehow figured out how to avoid light being absorbed by the (lack of) color it's going to be an issue that shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## Brock Anton

This Renteria kid for Colombia is really, really good. We're not going to be able to contain him for 90' at this point.


----------



## Brock Anton

Oh, that should have been 2-0. That could haunt us.


----------



## MurrayBannerman

kingsboy11 said:


> These jerseys look awful on the field as well




I'm actually thinking the opposite. That said, I came from like the worst opinion of them.


----------



## Brock Anton

Dumb yellow to concede by Miazga... but where the hell was the booking for the Colombian player barreling into Horvath?

So now Horvath has to come out due to that collision. Wonderful.

NVM: Forgot about the water break.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Brock Anton said:


> Dumb yellow to concede by Miazga... but where the hell was the booking for the Colombian player barreling into Horvath?




I'm amazed...and by that I mean I'm mildly surprised Horvath didn't get a yellow for being in the way.


----------



## kingsboy11

I was completely shocked that Colombian player didn't get anything for that reckless challenge. Got out of the half up a goal. Really needed that break. Colombia was on the brink of getting something.


----------



## Basement Cat

This is the mother of all bunkers and Im loving it. Morris almost scored a golazo with the outside of his right foot (because he refuses to use his left)


----------



## Basement Cat

and just like that, concede a PK goal. Hold this result please.


----------



## kingsboy11

Acosta has been awful today


----------



## Basement Cat

kingsboy11 said:


> Acosta has been awful today




Its as if he's not a fullback


----------



## StatesideSensFan

yea, just a dumb play by Acosta.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

The result is a hell of a lot prettier than that game was.


----------



## StatesideSensFan

okay, dont mess up Tuesday now please.

1-1 is about the best we could have expected I suppose.


----------



## HajdukSplit

While 1-1 is an ok result away from home its also not a comfortable scoreline as I have doubts USA will keep a clean sheet. Only thing is Colombia look like a hot tempered team, you can frustrate them easily


----------



## StatesideSensFan

HajdukSplit said:


> While 1-1 is an ok result away from home its also not a comfortable scoreline as I have doubts USA will keep a clean sheet. Only thing is Colombia look like a hot tempered team, you can frustrate them easily




dont get me wrong, i wanted 0-3 but given the talent on the team I didn't believe that to be achievable.

US needs to score first again on Tuesday night and this time, take that second chance later in the first half. Colombian wing play scares the crap out of me. I could see this one being 3-2, 2-3, or some other crazy score.


----------



## Brock Anton

> Howard; Cameron, Orozco, Gonzalez, Castillo; Yedlin, Mix, Bradley, Bedoya; Wood, Dempsey




That back four is lol. Brooks was apparently sent back to Hertha due to injury and Besler has a concussion.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Did anyone see Jurgens interview on Bein just minutes ago? He called the Gold Cup a "controversial result" several times. 

There is no ceiling to the level of delusion


----------



## Basement Cat

East Coast Bias said:


> Did anyone see Jurgens interview on Bein just minutes ago? He called the Gold Cup a "controversial result" several times.
> 
> There is no ceiling to the level of delusion




He is a phoney. Would love to have Bob Bradley back


----------



## Brock Anton

East Coast Bias said:


> Did anyone see Jurgens interview on Bein just minutes ago? He called the Gold Cup a "controversial result" several times.
> 
> There is no ceiling to the level of delusion




Nah, don't get Bein, gotta watch on NBC Universo. 

But if he was referring to Mexico, he's got a point. If he was talking about us, yeah, that's delusional.


----------



## Brock Anton

First long ball 25 seconds in. Of course.


----------



## Cody Webster

Was there a scuffle after the U23 game today? I just got the last minute of the game on FS2 and as they were cutting to commercial at the end, it looked like the reserves were charging onto the field and the refs were trying to break something up


----------



## Brock Anton

How is Carlos Ruiz under 40 years old? Dude must have a birthday every 4 years.


----------



## Brock Anton

This team ****ing sucks.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Jesus
****ing
Christ

Clown shoes. Everybody is wearing clown shoes.


Diskerud has no business being _named_ to our B squad at this point, nevermind starting on our supposed 'A' squad.


----------



## Brock Anton

The awful back pass from Castillo to concede the first corner is why he hasn't been seen on this team in a year.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Brock Anton said:


> The awful back pass from Castillo to concede the first corner is why he hasn't been seen on this team in a year.




I want to ridicule Howard for that, but that's on Castillo.

To go from off the radar to starting...yeah.

So ****ing sick of Klinnsy.


----------



## Brock Anton

Fire this ****ing clown at halftime.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Fire.
The.
Clown.

2-0 Guata****ingmala.

Unacceptable at any level. In any sport. At any time.


----------



## Live in the Now

They don't have a single player who should give the US trouble. This is a joke.


----------



## Brock Anton

Live in the Now said:


> They don't have a single player who should give the US trouble. This is a joke.




They have one, and he's on the bench (Marco Pappa). This is even worse than a joke.


----------



## Brock Anton

Bedoya has to score there. No excuse.


----------



## Basement Cat

So tell me again how this is MLS' fault please Jurgen (and his backers)


----------



## Brock Anton

Yedlin's final ball is pathetic... it's almost like he's a RB and not a winger.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

The roster is bad enough as it is, but nobody seems to have any clue what the hell they're supposed to be doing.


----------



## AdmiralsFan24

This is the same team that needed two second half, second leg goals to get past Antigua and Barbuda.


----------



## John Price

Ao bar here packed with mad drunk folks we been drinking since four watching u 23 now this Ehat they **** is gonna on man duj


----------



## Basement Cat

Klinsmann is stealing money from US Soccer.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Basement Cat said:


> Klinsmann is stealing money from US Soccer.




That's what you get for printing a contract on solid gold. His contract is absolutely disgusting, and why we're stuck with a toddler running things.


Diskerud yanked. Should have happened about 12 months ago.


----------



## Brock Anton

We're playing even worse. That should be impossible.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

I'm pretty sure Andorra would put up a better fight.


----------



## Brock Anton

I feel for Bobby Wood. Only guy trying anything out there and he's taking a ****ing beating.


----------



## Cody Webster

Wow, what saves by the keeper there.


----------



## NJDevs26

I get wanting to fire Klinsmann...but where's the replacement coming from? Go back to Arena or Bradley again? I like them but they both ran their course here (and Bradley just got fired by Egypt for the same reason he got fired here, getting punked by Ghana) and there's no other American coaches as qualified afaik. Go with another foreigner? Or (yikes) go with the former player approach. Going with former players might work in Germany where you already have an infrastructure of a top-level nation but the US needs more work than that.


----------



## Basement Cat

NJDevs26 said:


> I get wanting to fire Klinsmann...but where's the replacement coming from? Go back to Arena or Bradley again? I like them but they both ran their course here (and Bradley just got fired by Egypt for the same reason he got fired here, getting punked by Ghana) and there's no other American coaches as qualified afaik. Go with another foreigner? Or (yikes) go with the former player approach. Going with former players might work in Germany where you already have an infrastructure of a top-level nation but the US needs more work than that.




Bradley and Arena are both better than him at USMNT manager, so yeah I would take either. How about Oscar Pareja? Hell I'd rather have Miguel Herrera if we could get him.


----------



## Brock Anton

Clint, that was sad and pathetic.


----------



## Brock Anton

Basement Cat said:


> Bradley and Arena are both better than him at USMNT manager, so yeah I would take either. How about Oscar Pareja? Hell I'd rather have Miguel Herrera if we could get him.




Pareja is who I want.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

There are hundreds of coaches who can do a better job than Klinsmann is doing...and two that have.

Pareja jumps out as the obvious choice for new blood, though.


----------



## Cody Webster

What an embarrassing loss

This goalie is playing a hell of a game


----------



## Basement Cat

Not only is JK a ****ing moron who picks the wrong rosters, plays guys out of position, and clearly has no tactics.....but we gotta deal with the keeper having the game of his life too?

Rough night


----------



## Cody Webster

There is a decent chance the US doesnt even get out of this group


----------



## John Price

This is a disgrace


----------



## Brock Anton

Bedoya has been even more useless than Mix tonight.


----------



## Cody Webster

Mike Emrick said:


> This is a disgrace




Go home, you're drunk


----------



## GKJ

That second goal is extra hilarious.


----------



## NJDevs26

Cody Webster said:


> There is a decent chance the US doesnt even get out of this group




Well if they run the table no problem, and on paper they should run the table with Trinidad and Guatemala at home but even one draw and all of a sudden it gets real dicey.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Basement Cat said:


> Not only is JK a ****ing moron who picks the wrong rosters, plays guys out of position, and clearly has no tactics.....but we gotta deal with the keeper having the game of his life too?
> 
> Rough night




Don't worry, only one of those stories will get acknowledged.


At this point I'd be in favor of just letting a random number generator pick our squads, to say nothing of the tactics...

Embarrassing roster, embarrassing squad selection, embarrassing game. The players deserve more grief than they're going to get with the coach under fire...just a putrid game in every single respect.


----------



## Halladay

They get destroyed this summer, is he gone?


----------



## Big McLargehuge

856 said:


> They get destroyed this summer, is he gone?




Given the money involved, I almost expect Gulati to see the contract through.

Honestly it would take something as extreme as failing to qualify for the World Cup for anything to be done...if the Gold Cup didn't get it done, then I doubt a tournament where the US isn't expected to do much of anything in would really play into things.


----------



## Brock Anton

856 said:


> They get destroyed this summer, is he gone?




At this point, the only way I think he goes is if Nike thinks there's a real danger we're not going to qualify for the World Cup and step up to pay the buyout. Otherwise, we're stuck with him through 2018, or if we fail to qualify beforehand.


----------



## kingsboy11

I'm done with this **** excuse of a coach we have here. Diskerud and Castillo should have no business being anywhere near this team much less starting a qualifying game.


----------



## Savant

Brock Anton said:


> Pareja is who I want.




I'd go Herrera. 

Pareja is good developmental guy but his in game decisions and questionable lineup decisions drop him down my list.


----------



## John Price

Lol Herrera. Five men in defense 

Good luck with that


----------



## Savant

Mike Emrick said:


> Lol Herrera. Five men in defense
> 
> Good luck with that




Mexico traditionally play with a back 5 or back 3. Herrera isn't the first Mexico coach to use that and he won't be the last. Also considering USA's depth at CB and scarcity at FB and it may not be the worst idea in the world. That being said I do not think Herrera is married to that formation either.


----------



## NJDevs26

856 said:


> They get destroyed this summer, is he gone?




He might be gone if they lose Tuesday. At the very least it gets to DEFCON1 at that point.

I don't know if anything else truly matters before September but a bad showing in the Copa wouldn't help though.


----------



## Basement Cat

Mike Emrick said:


> Lol Herrera. Five men in defense
> 
> Good luck with that






Savant said:


> Mexico traditionally play with a back 5 or back 3. Herrera isn't the first Mexico coach to use that and he won't be the last. Also considering USA's depth at CB and scarcity at FB and it may not be the worst idea in the world. That being said I do not think Herrera is married to that formation either.




------Altidore-----Wood
------------Nguyen
---------Nagbe-Bradley
Johnson---------------Yedlin
------Brooks-Cameron-Besler

Dempsey as super sub.


----------



## Ugmo

NJDevs26 said:


> I get wanting to fire Klinsmann...but where's the replacement coming from? Go back to Arena or Bradley again? I like them but they both ran their course here (and Bradley just got fired by Egypt for the same reason he got fired here, getting punked by Ghana) and there's no other American coaches as qualified afaik. Go with another foreigner? Or (yikes) go with the former player approach. Going with former players might work in Germany where you already have an infrastructure of a top-level nation but the US needs more work than that.




Klinsmann has turned out to be not a good coach, at all. He has obviously lost the players. At this point I think half the coaches in MLS would do a better job than Klinsmann. It's not like we have to replace a coach with a stunning rÃ©sumÃ© who has done great things with US Soccer. His replacement doesn't have to be world-class to be a distinct improvement on this dreck.


----------



## chasespace

NJDevs26 said:


> I get wanting to fire Klinsmann...but where's the replacement coming from? Go back to Arena or Bradley again? I like them but they both ran their course here (and Bradley just got fired by Egypt for the same reason he got fired here, getting punked by Ghana) and there's no other American coaches as qualified afaik. Go with another foreigner? Or (yikes) go with the former player approach. Going with former players might work in Germany where you already have an infrastructure of a top-level nation but the US needs more work than that.




The "but who will replace him?" excuse is the worse excuse you can come up with. There are plenty of other managers the US can get, especially if they're handing out stupid contracts like the one they game Klinsmann. 

He needs to be removed from the US structure and replaced with an actual director who can help the sport grow from within instead of "Europe or bust" and also need to bring in a manager that is separate from him to control the USMNT.

Hell, if we want to solely look at someone who won't **** on the MLS you can bring in Vermes, Pareja, or Arena. If you want to get really crazy bring in Kasey Keller or Donovan.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

The "who will replace him" thing is one of those things that can be a legitimate concern...but only if the coach being tossed aside is actually good at _anything_. I bring that line up all the time when Steeler fans talk about wanting Mike Tomlin fired (or the rare Galaxy fan who gets frustrated with the direction Bruce Arena took the team over the past year) and it's a legitimate question in those cases.

In this case it'd almost be impossible to wind up with a _worse_ coach. Hell, even if we hired a guy who had the same strategy and idiotic tendencies it'd be an upgrade just because he woudln't be Klinsmann, who the players obviously aren't fond of...I mean, what does he expect when he keeps throwing players and leagues under the bus for his failures?


----------



## Ugmo

The worst part is knowing that as the team moves from one new low to the next, Klinsmann will be in charge for the next game, the performance will be lackluster at best and atrocious at worst, and Klinsmann will blame everything under the same except his own horrible decisions. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum. It's like no performance is bad enough to get him fired.


----------



## Brock Anton

I'm pretty much at the point where I don't think that even ****ing Frank Yallop could possibly do any worse than Klinsmann right now.


----------



## Rob

So would you say Tuesday is a must win? Are they out of it if they only draw?


----------



## HajdukSplit

Rob said:


> So would you say Tuesday is a must win? Are they out of it if they only draw?




Yes its pretty much must win, anything less than a win won't see them eliminated of course but destiny would be out of their hands and they would have to rely on other results. A home loss to Guatemala would really be something though...


----------



## chasespace

A home loss to Guatemala would probably lead to the Outlaws outright chanting for Klinsmann's head


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

You people wanting Jurgen fired are nuts. Are you forgetting this is us soccer? The expectations are not high. He's done more than anyone else. You should appreciate what he's done instead of thinking that the us is ever actually supposed to do anything. Its not exactly a coveted job either.


----------



## John Price

Free Caleb Porter.


----------



## NJDevs26

chasespace said:


> The "but who will replace him?" excuse is the worse excuse you can come up with. There are plenty of other managers the US can get, especially if they're handing out stupid contracts like the one they game Klinsmann.
> 
> He needs to be removed from the US structure and replaced with an actual director who can help the sport grow from within instead of "Europe or bust" and also need to bring in a manager that is separate from him to control the USMNT.
> 
> Hell, if we want to solely look at someone who won't **** on the MLS you can bring in Vermes, Pareja, or Arena. If you want to get really crazy bring in Kasey Keller or Donovan.




The anyone would be better argument is also flawed. Nobody was saying that a year ago when the US advanced out of the group of death in the World Cup and beat Germany and the Dutch in away friendlies after that. Maybe anyone would be better in the immediate future but you're trying to build a foundation for sustained success too. To a large degree this team IS rebuilding right now, other than Bradley where are the other top-shelf players? Dempsey and Howard are getting older and it's better than 50/50 neither is starting in 2018 if the US gets there, Altidore's always been streaky and the backline/midfield is meh other than Bradley.

I do think Klinsmann having ALL the power is a huge problem though, they pretty much had to give him that (plus the insane contract) to get him to come over but giving him total control after very limited experience at running a national team was foolish. And the fact he's so anti-MLS and pro-overseas soccer in addition to being pro-recruiting overseas dual eligibility players just adds to the complex most US fans already have about soccer, that it's an overseas sport. Recruiting overseas eligibles is like colleges recruiting juco's. It's good for short-term improvements but not sustainable success.

You don't just need to win as a US coach, you need to grow the fanbase too and get people to care for more than five minutes every four years. That's one way you eventually get more people to play soccer seriously and expand the talent pool. Landon Donovan - though he clearly has an axe to grind - had a fair point when he said anywhere else in the world Klinsmann would be on the hot seat. In an ideal world they either seperate the technical director/coach jobs or give both to someone immensely more qualified that can do both jobs and not **** off MLS and local soccer fans.


----------



## Halladay

I remember they struggled a bit last time for 2014 in this stage. Just have to win Tuesday.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Sports Enthusiast said:


> You people wanting Jurgen fired are nuts. Are you forgetting this is us soccer? The expectations are not high. He's done more than anyone else. You should appreciate what he's done instead of thinking that the us is ever actually supposed to do anything. Its not exactly a coveted job either.




What has he done so great? Given us Julien Green? 

The expectations are improvement. This team has regressed. It's clear as day to see. I'm not sure where you're coming up with low expectations argument? His predessor got fired for better results.


----------



## Ugmo

chasespace said:


> A home loss to Guatemala would probably lead to the Outlaws outright chanting for Klinsmann's head




Why do they have to wait that long? They should be chanting for Klinsmann's head right from the whistle.


----------



## Basement Cat

Sports Enthusiast said:


> You people wanting Jurgen fired are nuts. Are you forgetting this is us soccer? The expectations are not high. He's done more than anyone else. You should appreciate what he's done instead of thinking that the us is ever actually supposed to do anything. Its not exactly a coveted job either.




Having read this argument for the last 2 years, at this point I can't help but think this is meant to be sarcastic. You legitimately can't be serious with this argument 

Losing to a Guatemalan team whose best players are a washed up MLS reject and an FC Dallas reserve CB...or how about getting outshot at home by ****ing Haiti and losing to Jamaica on home soil. We should be sooooo grateful for Klinsmann



NJDevs26 said:


> The anyone would be better argument is also flawed. *Nobody was saying that a year ago when the US advanced out of the group of death in the World Cup and beat Germany and the Dutch in away friendlies after that.* Maybe anyone would be better in the immediate future but you're trying to build a foundation for sustained success too. To a large degree this team IS rebuilding right now, other than Bradley where are the other top-shelf players? Dempsey and Howard are getting older and it's better than 50/50 neither is starting in 2018 if the US gets there, Altidore's always been streaky and the backline/midfield is meh other than Bradley.
> 
> I do think Klinsmann having ALL the power is a huge problem though, they pretty much had to give him that (plus the insane contract) to get him to come over but giving him total control after very limited experience at running a national team was foolish. And the fact he's so anti-MLS and pro-overseas soccer in addition to being pro-recruiting overseas dual eligibility players just adds to the complex most US fans already have about soccer, that it's an overseas sport. Recruiting overseas eligibles is like colleges recruiting juco's. It's good for short-term improvements but not sustainable success.
> 
> You don't just need to win as a US coach, you need to grow the fanbase too and get people to care for more than five minutes every four years. That's one way you eventually get more people to play soccer seriously and expand the talent pool. Landon Donovan - though he clearly has an axe to grind - had a fair point when he said anywhere else in the world Klinsmann would be on the hot seat. In an ideal world they either seperate the technical director/coach jobs or give both to someone immensely more qualified that can do both jobs and not **** off MLS and local soccer fans.




You are very wrong here. There were plenty of us. 



East Coast Bias said:


> What has he done so great? Given us Julien Green?
> 
> The expectations are improvement. This team has regressed. It's clear as day to see. I'm not sure where you're coming up with low expectations argument? His predessor got fired for better results.




Exactly this.


----------



## Ugmo

Sports Enthusiast said:


> You people wanting Jurgen fired are nuts. Are you forgetting this is us soccer? The expectations are not high. *He's done more than anyone else.* You should appreciate what he's done instead of thinking that the us is ever actually supposed to do anything. Its not exactly a coveted job either.




No, he hasn't.

Won the Gold Cup? So have most of his predecessors. Qualified for the World Cup? So have most of his predecessors. Get through to the knockout stages? So have most of his predecessors. Matter of fact, several of them have done better than Klinsmann. Bruce Arena got to the quarterfinals of the 2002 World Cup. Bob Bradley got to the final of the Confederations' Cup in 2009 (Klinsmann somehow managed to not even qualify for it). Steve Sampson.... _Steve freakin' Sampson_ got to the semis of Copa America in 1995. Klinsmann on the other hand somehow managed to preside over a World Cup in which the U.S. got outshot, outpossessed and outpassed worse than any U.S. team in the modern era, including the 1990 college kid team. No joke. What his predecessors didn't manage to do was set the bar lower and lower with ignominious losses against the likes of Guatemala and Panama.

At one point, thanks to a string of meaningless friendly wins, Klinsmann had the highest winning percentage of any U.S. coach. Thanks to the **** show of the past year, that honor goes to Arena again.

I would say Klinsmann's current team is arguably the worst in the modern era. He is flat-out a bad coach, and he needs to be fired asap. And anyone still defending him must have only just discovered the USMNT when Klinsmann took it over.


----------



## Ugmo

NJDevs26 said:


> The anyone would be better argument is also flawed. Nobody was saying that a year ago when the US advanced out of the group of death in the World Cup and beat Germany and the Dutch in away friendlies after that.




Um, tons of people were saying it. We played poorly at the World Cup and were incredibly lucky to advance. The "Group of Death" turned out to be the Group of Disarray, but we were still outplayed in 7 of 8 halves (we outplayed Portugal in the second half).

Oh yeah, those meaningless friendlies against Holland and Germany. I remember a bunch of people scoreboarding over them like we'd just won the World Cup. We beat the Holland team that just failed to qualify for Euro 2016 and a Germany team that had literally flown in from that game from their _vacation_. In meaningless friendlies. And then we went on to lose just about every meaningful game thereafter.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

Basement Cat said:


> Having read this argument for the last 2 years, at this point I can't help but think this is meant to be sarcastic. You legitimately can't be serious with this argument




Ignore him...this is his whole schtick. Comes to all the Page 2 sports boards and spouts nonsense.


----------



## Brock Anton

If we somehow manage not to get 3 points on Tuesday, not only does Klinsmann need to go, Gulati does as well. We're only in this position right now due to his insistence that Klinsmann is the right guy, he's just as much to blame.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Brock Anton said:


> If we somehow manage not to get 3 points on Tuesday, not only does Klinsmann need to go, Gulati does as well. We're only in this position right now due to his insistence that Klinsmann is the right guy, he's just as much to blame.




I feel like I've already gone through this as a Penguins fan with Shero's insistence that Bylsma was the right coach for the team...but at least the Penguins duo had initial success. The 2014 World Cup was a mirage and it wasn't the best result we've ever had like so many seem to think it was. At the end of the day we only won one of those games...I know Ghana has been a sore spot for this team for a long time, but beating Ghana 2 years ago is a horrible reason to keep the guy around.

Unfortunately I don't think you can cut the head off the beast here considering Gulati's position is an elected one.


----------



## chasespace

NJDevs26 said:


> You don't just need to win as a US coach, you need to grow the fanbase too and get people to care for more than five minutes every four years. That's one way you eventually get more people to play soccer seriously and expand the talent pool. Landon Donovan - though he clearly has an axe to grind - had a fair point when he said anywhere else in the world Klinsmann would be on the hot seat. In an ideal world they either seperate the technical director/coach jobs or give both to someone immensely more qualified that can do both jobs and not **** off MLS and local soccer fans.




There is an argument to be made about his player selection being the reason he doesn't have much talent to put on the field but that's much more subjective.

In regards to this paragraph, you're wrong. If people didn't care about soccer then they wouldn't sell out the stadiums they play in regularly as they do now and the talent pool is greatly expanding thanks largely in part to the MLS, which Klinnsman goes off on every chance he gets. When MLS started pushing for their teams to install academies in '05-'07 they knew it would be a process but that process is now paying off. You have players such as Miazga, Palmer-Brown, Morris, Trapp, Yedlin, Zardes, Finlay, and Acosta who are all coming out of that program and an even stronger crop of players behind them now that the system is in full swing.

MLS and their academies will be the reason the USA has a strong talent pool to pull from in the coming years yet Klinnsman still seems hell bent on sabotaging that.


----------



## Halladay

They havent lost a World Cup qualifying home game in nearly 15 years. so that is some good news.


----------



## John Price

http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2016/03/26/usa-guatemala-world-cup-qualifier



> A home win against Guatemala on Tuesday would still likely put the U.S. in second place by a point over the Chapines with highly winnable qualifiers left at home against Trinidad and at lowly St. Vincent and the Grenadines. In fact, the current situation is eerily similar to the one in this round four years ago, when the U.S. lost at Jamaica and faced a near-must-win game at home against the Reggae Boyz. That, too, was in Columbus, and the Americans found a way to get three points.


----------



## Brock Anton

856 said:


> They havent lost a World Cup qualifying home game in nearly 15 years. so that is some good news.




We also hadn't lost to Guatemala since 1988 before Friday. Anything and everything is possible with the way this team has played since the World Cup.


----------



## John Price

After reading a lot of Grant Wahl today they should win Tuesday but there are no givens. Yes, this team has had their back against the wall before, as listed above, and managed to get out of the quagmire every time. But this Guatemala team under new management has played somewhat better than the prior regime. Don't let the FIFA WORLD ranking fool you. This team has grit. 

Hopefully we can solve the Guatemala goalie on Tuesday because he made a ton of ridiculous saves that day.


----------



## Moncherry

Sports Enthusiast said:


> You people wanting Jurgen fired are nuts. Are you forgetting this is us soccer? The expectations are not high. He's done more than anyone else. You should appreciate what he's done instead of thinking that the us is ever actually supposed to do anything. Its not exactly a coveted job either.




The expectations are that the U.S. shouldn't be losing to anyone in CONCACAF except Mexico and maybe Costa Rica and they certainly shouldn't be getting outplayed by Caribbean teams. That's not asking for the moon.


----------



## Brock Anton

Moncherry said:


> The expectations are that the U.S. shouldn't be losing to anyone in CONCACAF except Mexico and maybe Costa Rica and they certainly shouldn't be getting outplayed by Caribbean teams. That's not asking for the moon.




Exactly. 

Look, I think most U.S. fans can accept a loss on the road in Central America/Caribbean here or there as we all realize they're not the easiest places to play... but what happened Friday night was a complete embarrassment. Coming out and getting completely outplayed/coached by a team like Guatemala is unacceptable.


----------



## DaveG

Moncherry said:


> The expectations are that the U.S. shouldn't be losing to anyone in CONCACAF except Mexico and maybe Costa Rica and they certainly shouldn't be getting outplayed by Caribbean teams. That's not asking for the moon.




Bingo. I mean yeah, I'm not expecting us to win every game or even be a real challenger for the World Cup any time soon. But I'm also expecting us to be good enough to get out of the group basically every go round unless we get an absolutely ridiculous draw... like Group B. Our group was tough, it wasn't group B tough.

Hell I even expect us to have a hell of a fight playing against hex quality teams on the road. But Guatemala is a LONG way away from being one of those types of teams. Two years ago I defended the guy but yeah, he's lost the team. And the fact that Gulati won't replace him is just flat out astounding to me. **** the money, it needs to be done. Hell it should have been done before the playoff game for the Confed. Cup.


----------



## John Price




----------



## NJDevs26

DaveG said:


> Hell I even expect us to have a hell of a fight playing against hex quality teams on the road. But Guatemala is a LONG way away from being one of those types of teams. Two years ago I defended the guy but yeah, he's lost the team. And the fact that Gulati won't replace him is just flat out astounding to me. **** the money, it needs to be done. Hell it should have been done before the playoff game for the Confed. Cup.




It's not just the money, you gotta replace EVERYone in US soccer under Gulati if you nuke Klinsmann...you not only have to find a new coach but you have to find a new technical director, youth coaches, etc. Basically everyone was brought in by Klinsmann because he runs the show. Middle of World Cup qualifying and a couple months before Copa America isn't exactly the optimum time to drop a nuclear bomb on the whole operation. Maybe it happens if a worst-case scenario arrives after Tuesday but I suspect Gulati will give him till the next WC or elimination at least.


----------



## Brock Anton

NJDevs26 said:


> It's not just the money, you gotta replace EVERYone in US soccer under Gulati if you nuke Klinsmann...you not only have to find a new coach but you have to find a new technical director, youth coaches, etc. Basically everyone was brought in by Klinsmann because he runs the show. Middle of World Cup qualifying and a couple months before Copa America isn't exactly the optimum time to drop a nuclear bomb on the whole operation. Maybe it happens if a worst-case scenario arrives after Tuesday but I suspect Gulati will give him till the next WC or elimination at least.




Not really, the only other guy who might go if Klinsmann is canned is Andi Herzog and if the U-23's fail to advance Tuesday, his job becomes pointless anyways. I don't think that there would be any chance that Ramos or Hackworth go anywhere (though I wouldn't mind if they did), as they've been involved with U.S. Soccer long before Klinsmann even got there. 

Either way, after this game, the next international window isn't until late May, which will be two friendlies before the Copa America (and the last two games of this round of WCQ's aren't until September). That's more than enough time to go through an interview process with a new coach/technical director (it's also been reported that Klinsmann might not even be the true 'technical director' either). Plus, it may not even that long of a search because I have a hunch that the sudden appearance of Kreis during January camp wasn't a coincidence. I think if Gulati is left with no choice but to sack Klinsmann, Kreis is the guy. 

Regardless, if we don't get three points Tuesday, there's no point in keeping anyone anyways as it would be a failure of epic proportions.


----------



## East Coast Bias

https://twitter.com/SoccerByIves/status/


----------



## chasespace

East Coast Bias said:


> https://twitter.com/SoccerByIves/status/





Pitchforks and torches for sale!


----------



## Brock Anton

Nobody out of position, eh? In that case, I can't wait for the lineup on Tuesday then. 

Gonzalez
Zusi - Orozco - Wondo - Bedoya
Yedlin - Mix - Jozy
Bradley - Zardes - Cameron


----------



## kingsboy11

Brock Anton said:


> Nobody out of position, eh? In that case, I can't wait for the lineup on Tuesday then.
> 
> Gonzalez
> Zusi - Orozco - Wondo - Bedoya
> Yedlin - Mix - Jozy
> Bradley - Zardes - Cameron




And Castillo in goal


----------



## MurrayBannerman

Crossing my fingers for a Pulisic sighting tomorrow.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Brock Anton said:


> Nobody out of position, eh? In that case, I can't wait for the lineup on Tuesday then.
> 
> Gonzalez
> Zusi - Orozco - Wondo - Bedoya
> Yedlin - Mix - Jozy
> Bradley - Zardes - Cameron




I can't help but laugh at Zardes actually playing his proper position here (sorta), which he isn't even doing for his damn club


----------



## hatterson

Rob said:


> So would you say Tuesday is a must win? Are they out of it if they only draw?




A loss wouldn't put them officially out, but it would mean a big uphill climb and needing help.

With a loss, they'd need to win their last 2 (home against T&T, away at St. Vincent)

Assuming they do that (and T&T doesn't lose at home to St. Vincent tonight) there are three scenarios:

1.) T&T lose to Guatemala on Sep 2 and either the US has a better goal differential than T&T or Guatemala loses to St. Vincent.
2.) T&T win against Guatemala, and Guatemala lose against St. Vincent. T&T wins the group, US is second 1 pt ahead of Guatemala.
3.) T&T and Guatemala draw, and Guatemala lose against St. Vincent and US has better goal differential than Guatemala. T&T wins group, US second.

To sum it up, they either need Guatemala to lose against St. Vincent or they need T&T to lose against Guatemala.

A draw tonight has these scenarios if they win their last 2
1.) T&T lose to Guatemala
2.) Guatemala lose to St. Vincent
3.) T&T draw Guatemala and either Guatemala lose to St. Vincent or US beats T&T on goal differential.

A win tonight and they'd really only need to beat St. Vincent to move on.


----------



## Halladay

Tonight is potentially doomsday, and it should never ever be this early in qualifying.


----------



## Brock Anton

Well, we know one lineup change. Birnbaum is coming in for Orozco, according to Goff. Unclear if it's Birnbaum at CB, or at RB w/Cameron moving centrally.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

East Coast Bias said:


> What has he done so great? Given us Julien Green?
> 
> The expectations are improvement. This team has regressed. It's clear as day to see. I'm not sure where you're coming up with low expectations argument? His predessor got fired for better results.




They made it our of the group of death in the World Cup. You have to give credit for that.

I think most people forget that soccer doesn't matter here. Our best athletes play football and basketball. In other countries its soccer.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Brock Anton said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Look, I think most U.S. fans can accept a loss on the road in Central America/Caribbean here or there as we all realize they're not the easiest places to play... but what happened Friday night was a complete embarrassment. Coming out and getting completely outplayed/coached by a team like Guatemala is unacceptable.




I think they expect too much in that they expect them to automatically make the World Cup. I don't necessarily disagree that they shouldn't lose to Guatemala but I do think people have too high expectations for us soccer. I hope they can make the world cup each time it rolls around but if they don't qualify its not like I'm shocked. Its not like this is Germany or Brazil not qualifying. Its a country that will probably never win one. Not a powerhouse.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

856 said:


> Tonight is potentially doomsday, and it should never ever be this early in qualifying.




So if they don't win the aggregate they are out?

I thought there were a couple avenues like Confederations Cup?


----------



## Brock Anton

Sports Enthusiast said:


> So if they don't win the aggregate they are out?
> 
> I thought there were a couple avenues like Confederations Cup?




There are two games tonight. 

The senior team has a WCQ match against Guatemala, if they lose, they would be 5 points behind the second place team with 2 matches to go (aka all but eliminated). 

The U-23's are playing the second leg of an Olympic qualifying playoff against Colombia. It's currently 1-1 on aggregate w/the U.S. currently ahead on away goals.


----------



## Brock Anton

Sports Enthusiast said:


> I think they expect too much in that they expect them to automatically make the World Cup. I don't necessarily disagree that they shouldn't lose to Guatemala but I do think people have too high expectations for us soccer. I hope they can make the world cup each time it rolls around but if they don't qualify its not like I'm shocked. Its not like this is Germany or Brazil not qualifying. Its a country that will probably never win one. Not a powerhouse.




Completely disagree. There's no reason for us not to qualify for a World Cup, let alone fail to make the Hex (the next round of WCQ). Yeah, we're not Brazil or Germany, but we CERTAINLY should be expecting to consistently beat (or at least get a result against) everyone in CONCACAF outside Mexico and Costa Rica. 

If we fail to qualify for the World Cup, you should be shocked and I'm pretty sure it would make headlines around the globe (most of it would probably consist of ridicule, but you get the point).


----------



## IU Hawks fan

U23 isn't on TV, is it?


----------



## Brock Anton

IU Hawks fan said:


> U23 isn't on TV, is it?




It's on ESPN2 right after the USMNT game.


----------



## Halladay

it is on right after the first game.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

I'm blind. Thanks guys.


----------



## Brock Anton

> U.S. lineup vs. Guatemala: Guzan; Yedlin, Cameron, Birnbaum, Castillo; Beckerman, Bradley, Zusi; Zardes, Dempsey, Wood




When the chips are down.... we turn to Gyasi Zardes. The back four is fine though.


----------



## MurrayBannerman

Electric here already. I'm sure it's because of DJ Spin It Easy.


----------



## John Price

USA 4
Guatemala 1


----------



## Fro

sucks to not be there...but have it on with the volume up to root on them yanks


----------



## Brock Anton

Poor Browns, can't even escape a zinger during a soccer telecast.


----------



## Cody Webster

Let's ****ing go!!!

Do or die


----------



## awfulwaffle

Must win


----------



## Cody Webster

We need some Kate Smith here


----------



## Cody Webster

we made it to the 8th minute without conceding a goal. 

#progress


----------



## Cody Webster

GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Dempsy!!!!

YUGE!!


----------



## spintheblackcircle

attaboy 8


----------



## Brock Anton

Credit where credit is due, that was a great run from Zardes.


----------



## Fro

need to pot one or two more before the calls turn...


----------



## Cody Webster

nice chip Bradley......


----------



## Brock Anton

Blast the thing, Bradley.


----------



## Win Jiggys Loft

Jesus, Bradley wtf was that?!?


----------



## Fro

legggooooo boys


----------



## hockeykicker

so assuming usa wins, are they safe until the next round of qualifying or do they have another win or go home game?


----------



## Brock Anton

Holy **** Zardes, work on that touch ffs.


----------



## Fro

hockeykicker said:


> so assuming usa wins, are they safe until the next round of qualifying or do they have another win or go home game?




they would hold their destiny...win last 3 (including tonight) they go thru


----------



## Brock Anton

hockeykicker said:


> so assuming usa wins, are they safe until the next round of qualifying or do they have another win or go home game?




No, there's two more matches this round, they're in September.


----------



## Soundgarden

2-0

Nice set up there.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

that should probably do it, nice service and no defense


----------



## Cody Webster

GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

WHAT A FINISH BY CAMERON!!!!!

Yuge!!!!!1


----------



## hockeykicker

Fro said:


> they would hold their destiny...win last 3 (including tonight) they go thru




with the other opponents of st vincent and trinidad


----------



## Brock Anton

Great set piece, do that every time MB.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

Well I feel a whole lot better now.


----------



## Cody Webster

Can we fastforward this game and get to the U23 game?


----------



## Cody Webster

fire that Dempsy


----------



## Soundgarden

Weak finish right there.


----------



## Cody Webster

Oh, what a shank by Wood......


----------



## kingsboy11

Good half. Exactly what the team needed. Not sure what Bobby Wood was doing though


----------



## John Price

And Jurgen was like


----------



## Fro

kingsboy11 said:


> Good half. Exactly what the team needed. Not sure what Bobby Wood was doing though




he knew he handballed so he held up and threw him off...


----------



## Brock Anton

Now, get a third so we can see Pulisic get a run out.


----------



## Brock Anton

Mike Emrick said:


> And Jurgen was like




don't....


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Mike Emrick said:


> And Jurgen was like




He'll still have haters but people don't understand this isn't my Germany or France or Italy or Brazil or England. It's not like the guy gets the best athletes in his country. He's getting good athletes but like 3rd tier because the most athletic guys are playing football and basketball. In other countries they don't have that. 

That's why I don't mind if Guatemala advances. Its not like that country has anything else to look forward to.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Keep the foot on the gas.


----------



## Soundgarden

30 seconds in.


----------



## Brock Anton

Zardes' awful touch becomes an assist. 

#peakzardes


----------



## Basement Cat

Sports Enthusiast said:


> He'll still have haters but people don't understand this isn't my Germany or France or Italy or Brazil or England. It's not like the guy gets the best athletes in his country. He's getting good athletes but like 3rd tier because the most athletic guys are playing football and basketball. In other countries they don't have that.
> 
> That's why I don't mind if Guatemala advances. Its not like that country has anything else to look forward to.




Can this guy troll any harder?


----------



## Cody Webster

Couldn't ask for a better start to the second half than that


----------



## Fro

offisides not called...interesting


----------



## Fro

Ruiz is a little *****


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Basement Cat said:


> Can this guy troll any harder?




Its funny you call that trolling. The most overused and incorrectly used wors on the internet. 

If I were gunna "troll" I'll let you know homes. There wasn't any real emotion of anger or anything in that post. But the emo police on HF Boards and other places say if you're not sheeping you're trolling....cause murica.

And I won't believe for a second that nobody else that's posted in this thread doesn't root for another national team that isn't us. I mean why wouldn't they? They root for all these teams in Europe domestic leagues.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

Sports Enthusiast said:


> Its funny you call that trolling. The most overused and incorrectly used wors on the internet.
> 
> If I were gunna "troll" I'll let you know homes.




Except you do this on every sports board


----------



## Fro

c'mon put Finlay in at his home stadium....


----------



## Fro

Andrew King ‏@AndrewKingMLS 30s30 seconds ago
Christian Pulisic is heading over to warm up #USMNT

Andrew King ‏@AndrewKingMLS now4 seconds ago
#CrewSC star @EthanFinlay13 is about to make his first competitive #USMNT appearance.


YAY!!!!!!


----------



## Basement Cat

Sports Enthusiast said:


> Its funny you call that trolling. The most overused and incorrectly used wors on the internet.
> 
> If I were gunna "troll" I'll let you know homes. There wasn't any real emotion of anger or anything in that post. But the emo police on HF Boards and other places say if you're not sheeping you're trolling....cause murica.
> 
> And I won't believe for a second that nobody else that's posted in this thread doesn't root for another national team that isn't us. I mean why wouldn't they? They root for all these teams in Europe domestic leagues.




Sorry, what you said was just so dumb, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt


----------



## John Price

Looks like USA is going to win tonight.


----------



## MurrayBannerman

Pulisic is coming on.


----------



## bluesfan94

Poor Finlay.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Why didn't Dempsey pass it to Pulisic?


----------



## John Price

Well I got the USA goal # right. Won't complain about a shutout.

Total pounding to eliminate any shred of doubt about qualification.


----------



## Brock Anton

We lost to this team.


----------



## GKJ

Brock Anton said:


> We lost to this team.




One that's having trouble keeping the actual numbers on their jerseys.


----------



## Fro

ugh, crushed for Ethan...


----------



## Deficient Mode

Pulisic with two takeaways 

Guess it's not that impressive against such a technically mediocre side, but still


----------



## John Price

Now let's pound Colombia and get some Olympic experience, boys.


----------



## Brock Anton

Much, much easier said than done, but keep a clean sheet and you go to Rio.


----------



## Cody Webster

Don't follow closely, but why wouldnt Pulisic play with the U23's?


----------



## Cody Webster

Kate Smith!!!!


----------



## Brock Anton

Cody Webster said:


> Don't follow closely, but why wouldnt Pulisic play with the U23's?




Probably because Dortmund wouldn't release him to the U-23s as they don't have to.


----------



## Cody Webster

Brock Anton said:


> Probably because Dortmund wouldn't release him to the U-23s as they don't have to.




Ahh, gotcha. Thanks


----------



## Brock Anton

Big save Horvath. Awful giveaway from Payne.


----------



## John Price

The AO has foregone chants today in favor of a kazoo or similar instrument. Just playing Whoa oh oh and God Bless America on instruments


----------



## John Price

Cody Webster said:


> Don't follow closely, but why wouldnt Pulisic play with the U23's?




cap tie


----------



## John Price

We love ya we love ya we love ya


----------



## Brock Anton

Qunitero looks like the danger man tonight.


----------



## Cody Webster

Horvath playing yuge right now


----------



## Brock Anton

Christ, stop trying to hold on for the 0-0. Play a little bit.


----------



## Cody Webster

That hurts, big time

Knew it was coming, only a matter of time


----------



## HajdukSplit

Mike Emrick said:


> cap tie




Don't get it really, he was never really a threat to play for Croatia, even the Croatian technical director admitted much. Its not like he would have gotten called up for Euros either, despite his talent he wouldn't get into the CRO side at current moment. 

Deserved goal for Colombia


----------



## Brock Anton

That's what happens when you go in a ****ing shell. We're at home, play with some damn confidence.


----------



## Brock Anton

Oh man, that's two breaks. First Parker doesn't get sent off.... then that clinical header.


----------



## Cody Webster

It's an own goal!!!!!!

SENSATIONAL!!!!


----------



## Cody Webster

Dagger


----------



## kingsboy11

2 consecutive cycles of missing the Olympics. Disgraceful


----------



## Brock Anton

Payne being lackadaisical on the cross led to that. Take nothing away from Martinez though, that touch/finish was excellent.


----------



## Cody Webster

Gil sent off for nothing.


----------



## Brock Anton

Doesn't send off Acosta/Parker for stamps but sends off Gil... for something?


----------



## Fro

this is brutal "acting"


----------



## Cody Webster

Yea, get that ***** off the field

Awful header there


----------



## AdmiralsFan24

Are referees trained to be this stupid? He's not even looking at the play in question but probably hears the guy screaming like a *****, looks over and sees him flailing on the ground and just assumes that there must have been not only a foul but a foul worthy of a second yellow.


----------



## Cody Webster

And he runs back onto the field as if nothing happened


----------



## Cody Webster

Lol, and back on the ground he goes. 

They should allow fighting in soccer, just so people like him can get his ass kicked (not serious)


----------



## AdmiralsFan24

Another red card with a guy not even trying to get the ball, just draw a call.


----------



## njdevsfn95

Until they implement some type of review system and start throwing bans, its only going to continue.

Id say "get worse" but I dont think it can, really. Every country does it to some extent and it happens in every league I've watched.


----------



## kingsboy11

If you can't beat the U-23 Honduras you don't deserve to go to the Olympics


----------



## Brock Anton

I mean, that was a red (last man, hands all over him) but this dude missed two stamps, an elbow, a disgusting amount of simulation and on top of it, sends off someone else for nothing.


----------



## Brock Anton

Two consecutive cycles missing the Olympics. ****ing pathetic.


----------



## NJDevs26

Mike Emrick said:


> Well I got the USA goal # right. Won't complain about a shutout.
> 
> Total pounding to eliminate any shred of doubt about qualification.




Well they aren't really in the clear yet, although it would take a double catastrophe to miss (Trinidad losing to Guatemala at home, the US not beating Trinidad at home). But if they do win their final two games which they should, they'll win the group.

I'm actually more annoyed over missing the Olympics than ecstatic over this win, doesn't seem like any of the non senior teams are doing all that well.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

kingsboy11 said:


> If you can't beat the U-23 Honduras you don't deserve to go to the Olympics




More or less.

That game last night, though...if I were a player I'd have cleated someone. My temper was never exactly my strong point when I played hockey, mind you, so...yeah.

At least I'd have _deserved_ that red card. Some putrid acts of sportsmanship by Colombia and the refs ate it up...and yes, I see the irony in saying that after I said I'd have cleated somebody.


----------



## chasespace

Never had hope we would beat Colombia but it was nice to get a goal in their house.

On to the USMNT, this is what this team can do when you play players in their actual positions. I loved the team this game. Let's keep it up and roll through the Copa.


----------



## John Price

Guatemala: The worst U.S. loss since 1998?. http://feeds.soundcloud.com/stream/256349282-planet-futbol-the-worst-us-loss-since-iran-98.mp3. Sent from Podcast Republic.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Women from the USWNT filed federal discrimination complaint against US Soccer based on wage gap.

They make more for US Soccer than the men do. It's also basically their full time job.

This goes back to Gulati. He needs to go with Jurgen. Both of them can **** off. 


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/01/s...olo-complain.html?smid=tw-nytsports&smtyp=cur


I would laugh, but this is just so bad.



> Thursday’s EEOC complaint breaks compensation down into the money athletes of both genders earn for playing friendlies; World Cup compensation; Olympic compensation; and other sponsor appearances and ticket revenues. The men and women are paid so differently for the 20 friendlies required of both teams each year, the women would earn $27,000 less for winning all 20 of their games than the men would make for losing all of theirs.





http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/women-national-team-calls-foul-soccer-article-1.2583405


----------



## njdevsfn95

East Coast Bias said:


> They make more for US Soccer than the men do.




Is this actually true? 

In 2014, the USMNT got $9,000,000 for going out in the Knockout stages of the WC.

In 2015, the USWNT got $2,000,000 for winning.

Could the USWNT made more money last year than the men? Of course. They had a WC and a Victory Tour which are of a higher profile than their typical schedule.

Did the USWNT bring in more revenue than the men did in 2014, though? Now the USMNT has WCQ and the COPA this year...that's gonna be a massive revenue boost. Not sure how the Olympics play into revenue generation for Women.

There are some other things in there that are a bit out of sorts, of course, so I'm not saying they don't deserve more than they currently get.


----------



## East Coast Bias

njdevsfn95 said:


> Is this actually true?
> 
> In 2014, the USMNT got $9,000,000 for going out in the Knockout stages of the WC.
> 
> In 2015, the USWNT got $2,000,000 for winning.
> 
> Could the USWNT made more money last year than the men? Of course. They had a WC and a Victory Tour which are of a higher profile than their typical schedule.
> 
> Did the USWNT bring in more revenue than the men did in 2014, though? Now the USMNT has WCQ and the COPA this year...that's gonna be a massive revenue boost. Not sure how the Olympics play into revenue generation for Women.
> 
> There are some other things in there that are a bit out of sorts, of course, so I'm not saying they don't deserve more than they currently get.




Based on US Soccer's own budget and projections for 2016-2017, yes its true.




> This is not so simple a matter as the men being paid more because they earn more for U.S. Soccer. The filing includes the minutes from the USSFâ€™s annual general meeting held earlier this year, in which the budget going forward was set. U.S. Soccer expects USWNT international games to bring in more revenue than the USMNT games this yearâ€”and significantly more in 2017.




http://screamer.deadspin.com/uswnt-stars-file-federal-discrimination-complaint-again-1768183923


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Too tired to do the research right now, but didn't the USWNT make a buttload of profit last year (~$15m), while the men lost money?

Honestly the women deserve to be, if not on the level of the men, at least much closer _in this country_. Just for the national team work. The second this turns into league stuff they'll lose me instantly, but just for national team work they're just as much of a draw as the men are. For sheer supply & demand the women are, at worst, at the level of the men in this country at this point in time.

To say nothing about the US not doing their due diligence when it comes to playing surfaces for the women...


----------



## spintheblackcircle

their projections are WAY off. There is no way women's revenue will go up 300% in 1 year without a World Cup going on.


----------



## chasespace

njdevsfn95 said:


> Is this actually true?
> 
> In 2014, the USMNT got $9,000,000 for going out in the Knockout stages of the WC.
> 
> In 2015, the USWNT got $2,000,000 for winning.




Outside of FIFA/Confederation prize money the USWNT brings in more ticket sales(understandable as they play far more games), TV revenue(again, more games means more games on TV), and sponsorship dollars.

They should be paid accordingly. The most infuriating thing I read was that the men get paid a sum for drawing or losing a friendly, smaller than winning but still a few grands, while the women will receive a similar amount only for winning. They do not receive any bonuses for drawing or losing friendlies. The argument I've seen made is that the men are only paid for games they are called in on, they're not salaried employees like the women are. Still, the bonus payout clauses should be similar.


----------



## theaub

How many players are actually salaried?


----------



## Brock Anton

theaub said:


> How many players are actually salaried?




This year, I believe there are 24.


----------



## East Coast Bias

spintheblackcircle said:


> their projections are WAY off. There is no way women's revenue will go up 300% in 1 year without a World Cup going on.




I would imagine they know how to accurately project their own budgets.

You're actually going to see the big boost in the WC win spread out over the next year or two. To start with, the WC is in July. So you've lost 1/2 the year before they actually won. Then, the actual world cup win is worth $2 million for the USWNT. To the whole team. They probably took that much from their 1st celebration tour game.

Its a residual effect. So yes, odds are they will pull in 300% higher the year after the WC.


----------



## Brock Anton

Big McLargehuge said:


> Too tired to do the research right now, but didn't the USWNT make a buttload of profit last year (~$15m), while the men lost money?
> 
> Honestly the women deserve to be, if not on the level of the men, at least much closer _in this country_. Just for the national team work. *The second this turns into league stuff they'll lose me instantly*, but just for national team work they're just as much of a draw as the men are. For sheer supply & demand the women are, at worst, at the level of the men in this country at this point in time.
> 
> To say nothing about the US not doing their due diligence when it comes to playing surfaces for the women...




Yep. If they ever try to make this MLS vs. the NWSL, it'll be their death knell. They have valid points when it comes to U.S. Soccer and the WNT/MNT but the two leagues aren't even close to being in the same stratosphere.


----------



## chasespace

Brock Anton said:


> Yep. If they ever try to make this MLS vs. the NWSL, it'll be their death knell. They have valid points when it comes to U.S. Soccer and the WNT/MNT but the two leagues aren't even close to being in the same stratosphere.




I can see them using it at as a stepping stone to get US Soccer to pump some more money into the NWSL in the name of development as the salary most of them receive is insulting. Not to mention each team as a few players on the ROSTER that they don't even pay, they're basically there in the name of training and play in games where they lose players to call-ups.


----------



## Brock Anton

chasespace said:


> I can see them using it at as a stepping stone to get US Soccer to pump some more money into the NWSL in the name of development as the salary most of them receive is insulting. Not to mention each team as a few players on the ROSTER that they don't even pay, they're basically there in the name of training and play in games where they lose players to call-ups.




I'm well aware how the NWSL runs. 

Yes, the players on the low end are paid paltry amounts and that needs to change but the league as a whole is nowhere close to the popularity of the national team. Teams like Sky Blue and Boston still have games where they get like 1K in attendance. U.S. Soccer pumping more money into the league is going to change nothing in regards to either of those things (they're not paying anyone outside the WNT players they have contracted, the clubs pay the rest of the players). If they ever decide to make this into a league issue, it'll never hold up. The two leagues are simply not comparable. I really hope they're smart enough to keep this to a national team debate (where a legitimate argument can be had) and not expand on it.


----------



## varsaku

Aside from the Women's WC and the first few victory tour games, I don't think they make a whole a lot of revenue. Now that the novelty has worn off, people are not paying the same high prices they were a year ago. Men's have alot of major revenue streams like Gold Cup, WCQ, Copa and other big matchups spread out.


----------



## varsaku

If those 2016 numbers are true then the USWNT does have a case.


----------



## John Price

Lol at people complaining about the women when it's their damn right to demand more pay come off it mate 

It's been proven they're underpaid 

Pay the world Champs not hard


----------



## njdevsfn95

Looking at the numbers excluding the projection year:

The MNT revenue was $66.2M in 56 games (I'm including matches from calender years 2013, 14, and 15)
The WNT revenue was $36.9M in 66 games (again including all matches from calendar years 2013, 14, and 15)

Including the projections, the MNT revenue stands at $75.2M (in likely far fewer matches) compared to the WNT $54.5M over the course of data provided.

That being said, though who makes more $ really seems to depend on which year is being discussed, the pay for friendlies is asinine. No one should get paid for losing but if someone is...everyone should be.


----------



## El Gato Bodegero

Women should get paid more and I think its only fair because of the success in their Soccer program and their popularity.


----------



## John Price

End debate.


----------



## theaub

How does that end the debate at all?

Its not like Michael Bradley gives a crap how much the WNT makes. Bradley could go take a dump on Gulati's desk and still make more in the next three months than any WNT player will make from the USSF in her career.

Also if the forecast and budget are that far off I think the USSF needs a new budget person.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

It's kind of a weird thing, isn't it? I mean who's ever heard of 'pay' being a big issue for the national team. But then you remember that nobody in the commercial sector is interested in really paying women's soccer players because that's money down the drain, so for comfortable pay they basically rely on state subsidies i.e. the USSF.


----------



## theaub

And that's really the issue at the end of the day

The WNT can (legitimately) complain, but the USSF has reserve era-like power over them at this point. Frankly the USSF paying their players is probably the biggest selling point for them (ie why Leroux switched to the US).


----------



## Brock Anton

The pay has always been an issue for the WNT because they're more or less treated as a club team. It's why, to me, the only way they can get true 'equal' pay to the MNT is if they completely overhaul how they're compensated. There's no way they're going to get ~$400k on a full time salary (plus whatever bonuses they earn), it's just not going to happen. I highly doubt the WNT players would agree to a similar structure to what the MNT have (game-by-game w/bonuses), but IMO it's the only way to get it close. Plus, with the amount of games they play, they very well might get more per year than the men. 

Of course, changing the pay structure would also put an end to the stranglehold the WNT players have on their roster spots therefore opening it up to everyone, so again, they'd never go for it.


----------



## Bure80

Some really nice skill plays by the 9 year old Christian Pulisic.
You can see this kid have all the talent to be something special.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKVw33hrZmA


----------



## Fro

guess I never realized you got paid for playing on the NT...always assumed that they did it for the honor...

i know, how naive of me...


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Do the younger USWNT players who play in the NCAA just forgoe paychecks then?


----------



## East Coast Bias

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Do the younger USWNT players who play in the NCAA just forgoe paychecks then?




Correct. In order to retain their amateur status they can't receive pay from the team or sponsors.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Feilhaber is a legend. Hilarious


https://twitter.com/MattBesler/status/


----------



## chasespace

Fro said:


> guess I never realized you got paid for playing on the NT...always assumed that they did it for the honor...
> 
> i know, how naive of me...




I know England players donate their pay from National team duty to charities. Don't know if any other countries do that or not.


----------



## kingsboy11

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Do the younger USWNT players who play in the NCAA just forgoe paychecks then?




See Jordan Morris as well. Never got paid during his call ups


----------



## varsaku




----------



## spintheblackcircle

SEE, female athletes are just like men!


----------



## Brock Anton

it was the turf's fault

this post was sponsored by scott's lawn care #keepitnatural


----------



## HajdukSplit

was she driving a foreign car?


----------



## Brock Anton

oh damn lol


----------



## Juve

HajdukSplit said:


> was she driving a foreign car?




Brienne of Tarth was caught drunk while riding her horse.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

HajdukSplit said:


> was she driving a foreign car?




She is a Mini spokesman.


----------



## Virtanen18

Couldn't afford to call a cab? This equal pay thing is worse than I thought!


----------



## Brock Anton

Watch, the USSF will fine Bedoya/Altidore or something for their tweets.


----------



## chasespace

If the USSF makes a bigger deal out of this than it did about Hope Solo's incident then they are pretty backwards.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

Well, she's retired, so why would they give a ****?


----------



## chasespace

IU Hawks fan said:


> Well, she's retired, so why would they give a ****?




Still an icon and involved with the team


----------



## DoyleG

chasespace said:


> If the USSF makes a bigger deal out of this than it did about Hope Solo's incident*s* then they are pretty backwards.




Fixed.


----------



## theaub

Random Q for anyone who goes to any level of NT games with AO etc

Do you guys use assigned seating in the sections or is it semi (or full) GA?


----------



## IU Hawks fan

theaub said:


> Random Q for anyone who goes to any level of NT games with AO etc
> 
> Do you guys use assigned seating in the sections or is it semi (or full) GA?




Typically it's GA. CONMEBOL isn't allow it for the Copa, so AO has assigned seats.


----------



## HajdukSplit

in typical US Soccer fashion the Copa America 40-man provisional squad was selected today but won't be announced until earliest Sunday evening. Don't know why US soccer waits until the last minute to release the names


----------



## Brock Anton

40-man preliminary roster






A wild Eric Lichaj appears.


----------



## kingsboy11

someone please explain to me how Diskerud is on this list


----------



## chasespace

kingsboy11 said:


> someone please explain to me how Diskerud is on this list




Because Klinsmann


----------



## Big McLargehuge

It's just baffling. Everyone else in the world can see that he's been molten garbage for at least the past 15 months now. You can argue his merit before that, but since the start of last year he's been either bad or a liability every step of the way...

Maybe some managers put too much focus on current form, but to completely ignore it is way worse.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Does Miazga make the final cut? He's been great in his Chelsea cameos


----------



## kingsboy11

Depends if Jurgen wants to go with youth or experience. I think he's certainly got a chance to make the final cut.


----------



## Basement Cat

He's in my top four as far as CBs go (we need Cameron at 6 IMO):

Brooks, Besler, Miazga, Gonzo


----------



## bluesfan94

kingsboy11 said:


> someone please explain to me how Diskerud is on this list




Have you seen his hair?


----------



## Savant

I really hope the next coach knows how to play 3 at the back. USA have terrific personnel for it.


----------



## Ugmo

Wise move by Perry Kitchen, going to a European club... any European club, even a small one in a crap league. He knows how transparent Klinsmann is.


----------



## Basement Cat

Savant said:


> I really hope the next coach knows how to play 3 at the back. USA have terrific personnel for it.




Totally agree.

Something like this is what I think is our best lineup:

-----------Wood-Dempsey
---------------Pulisic
-----------Nagbe-Bradley
Johnson--------------------Yedlin
-------Besler-Brooks-Cameron


----------



## Brock Anton

That midfield would never work IMO. Bradley isn't disciplined enough to play as a true No. 6 for it to work properly, nor is it his best position. One of Pulisic/Nagbe would need to make way for a guy like Beckerman, or move Cameron up and put Omar in the back.


----------



## Basement Cat

Brock Anton said:


> That midfield would never work IMO. Bradley isn't disciplined enough to play as a true No. 6 for it to work properly, nor is it his best position. One of Pulisic/Nagbe would need to make way for a guy like Beckerman, or move Cameron up and put Omar in the back.




Bradley played some of the best soccer in his career as a #6 and is doing a decent job at Toronto in a similar role. We would have 3 CBs in this formation so why the need for a true CDM anyways? Obviously depends on who we're playing. 

Another option is something like:

-----------Wood-Dempsey
---------------Pulisic
-----------Cameron-Bradley
Johnson--------------------Yedlin
-------Besler-Brooks-Miazga


----------



## Savant

Brock Anton said:


> That midfield would never work IMO. Bradley isn't disciplined enough to play as a true No. 6 for it to work properly, nor is it his best position. One of Pulisic/Nagbe would need to make way for a guy like Beckerman, or move Cameron up and put Omar in the back.




I would play 3 at the back close to how Monchengladbach plays. Johnson will be very aware of how that goes. Nagbe plays the controller role that Xhaka plays and and Bradley does the b2b staff that Dahoud does. 

I'm not saying they are necessarily at that level but there is a template. I would also have Wood (or whoever is in form) as a solo striker with Pulisic and probably Bedoya. I think it could work.


----------



## varsaku

New rendering of US soccer Hall of Fame. I am kind of disappointed that they didn't build a separate structure and just incorporated it into the expansion plans.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

My Copa tickets came today!


----------



## MurrayBannerman

IU Hawks fan said:


> My Copa tickets came today!




Which games?


----------



## IU Hawks fan

Just have the US game here, bought through AO, a buddy is a member. 

I'll probably go to the Jamaica game, can't beat soccer at Soldier Field for 10 bucks.


----------



## MurrayBannerman

IU Hawks fan said:


> Just have the US game here, bought through AO, a buddy is a member.
> 
> I'll probably go to the Jamaica game, can't beat soccer at Soldier Field for 10 bucks.




I should be at both of those, too.


----------



## Brock Anton

Jozy left TFC's game with, you guessed it.... a hamstring injury.


----------



## kingsboy11

Brock Anton said:


> Jozy left TFC's game with, you guessed it.... a hamstring injury.




This guy needs to himself another hamstring because the one he currently has isn't working


----------



## Basement Cat

I wish him all the best, but I look forward to seeing different options tried out up top.


----------



## Brock Anton

Some interesting names in the squad for the Puerto Rico match. 



> GOALKEEPERS (3): Brad Guzan (Aston Villa), Tim Howard (Colorado Rapids), Zack Steffen (SC Freiburg)
> 
> DEFENDERS (7): John Brooks (Hertha Berlin), Geoff Cameron (Stoke City), Eric Lichaj (Nottingham Forest), Matt Miazga (Chelsea), Michael Orozco (Club Tijuana), Tim Ream (Fulham), DeAndre Yedlin (Tottenham)
> 
> MIDFIELDERS (7): Alejandro Bedoya (Nantes), Emerson Hyndman (Fulham), Fabian Johnson (Borussia Monchengladbach), Perry Kitchen (Heart of Midlothian), Alfredo Morales (Ingolstadt), Caleb Stanko (SC Freiburg), Danny Williams (Reading)
> 
> FORWARDS (5): Paul Arriola (Club Tijuana), Julian Green (Bayern Munich), Fabrice Picault (FC St. Pauli), Amando Moreno (Club Tijuana), Bobby Wood (Hamburg)


----------



## Basement Cat

Brock Anton said:


> Some interesting names in the squad for the Puerto Rico match.




I like it. Let me see this to start:

Howard
Yedlin-Miazga-Brooks-Lichaj
Cameron-Williams
Bedoya-Hyndman-Johnson
Wood


----------



## Brock Anton

According to this report, Dortmund, Milan and Celtic are after Hyndman

In other news, Jozy ruled out 6-8 weeks due to hamstring injury. Will miss the Copa.


----------



## chasespace

Brock Anton said:


> Some interesting names in the squad for the Puerto Rico match.




Run the kids!

Steffen
Lichaj-Brooks-Miazga-Yedlin
Cameron/Williams-Stanko
Green-Hyndman-Johnson
Wood


This is the definitions of a throwaway game, see what some of these kids have when you let them run for most of the game.


----------



## Ugmo

Julian Green? Huh.


----------



## BSHH

Most of you will already know that Bobby Wood has moved to my club HSV. According to most reports I've read, the transfer fee is € 3.5m.

Since I have not seen the player yet, any input of yours about him will be highly appreciated. I have seen that he is penciled in most of your starting XI predicitons/wishes, so that gave me already hope. But please do not hesitate; I'd particularly like to know which type of attacker Wood is and whether you would only play him as a pure striker or also on the wing (which transfermarkt.com suggests).

Hamburg typically plays in a 4-2-3-1-formation, where both the left wing and the striker situation could be open for Wood due to mediocre competition. Safe to say Wood does not need to excel in order to make in impact in Hamburg: HSV's best attacker Lasogga is a pure striker, who often looks lazy and much too slow. Other attackers are Schipplock, a more versatile player coming from a lousy season, and Altintas, a young center forward who played 26 minutes as a whole.

GruÃŸ,
BSHH


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

BSHH said:


> Most of you will already know that Bobby Wood has moved to my club HSV. According to most reports I've read, the transfer fee is â‚¬ 3.5m.
> 
> Since I have not seen the player yet, any input of yours about him will be highly appreciated. I have seen that he is penciled in most of your starting XI predicitons/wishes, so that gave me already hope. But please do not hesitate; I'd particularly like to know which type of attacker Wood is and whether you would only play him as a pure striker or also on the wing (which transfermarkt.com suggests).
> 
> Hamburg typically plays in a 4-2-3-1-formation, where both the left wing and the striker situation could be open for Wood due to mediocre competition. Safe to say Wood does not need to excel in order to make in impact in Hamburg: HSV's best attacker Lasogga is a pure striker, who often looks lazy and much too slow. Other attackers are Schipplock, a more versatile player coming from a lousy season, and Altintas, a young center forward who played 26 minutes as a whole.
> 
> GruÃŸ,
> BSHH




Wood's a really fast striker. He gets himself into good positions to score goals and his movement is pretty good. His finishing is probably only average, and he's not really a hold the ball up striker. He's average in the air, and technically. He had previously struggled earlier in his career playing in wide positions. I think the main reason why he was so successful this season was because he played centrally, and he seemed to do very well centrally.


----------



## Brock Anton

Maybe this is why so many MNT players get injured in training....


----------



## kingsboy11

How much you want to bet Morris didn't make the team is because he didn't go to Bremen?


----------



## Ugmo

kingsboy11 said:


> How much you want to bet Morris didn't make the team is because he didn't go to Bremen?




Makes you wonder. Perry Kitchen barely got a sniff before he went to the magical mystery land, and now that he's there (albeit playing for a mediocre club in a crappy league), he's securely ensconced in the final 23.


----------



## chasespace

Brock Anton said:


> Maybe this is why so many MNT players get injured in training....




Jurgen's reaction whenever a player mentions "tactics" to him


----------



## chasespace

There is no one at this game


----------



## Brock Anton

There was zero need for Bedoya to blast one across the box....


----------



## Brock Anton

Great work from Wood to win the header. Nice finish from Nagbe. 

Jurgen, start them.


----------



## Gambar

Nice from Wood and Nagbe there.


----------



## kingsboy11

Team looked a lot more dangerous when Nagbe and Wood came on. And Pulisic showed well in his limited minutes.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

What are the chances that Zardes or Zusi could do this?


----------



## Basement Cat

It's sad that for MONTHS people on social media and the Internet have made it clear that this is our best CM trio:

Nagbe-X
Bradley

with X being Jones or another box to box guy

But NOOOOOOO JK has insisted on playing Bradley further up and Beckerman sweeping in front of the back line.

Let's hope yesterday showed him the truth.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Do you honestly think the manager should follow Twitter's lineup suggestions?


----------



## Basement Cat

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Do you honestly think the manager should follow Twitter's lineup suggestions?




Is this a serious question? 

I meant it as "if everyone can see it, how come the guy getting paid millions can't?".


----------



## Savant

Basement Cat said:


> It's sad that for MONTHS people on social media and the Internet have made it clear that this is our best CM trio:
> 
> Nagbe-X
> Bradley
> 
> with X being Jones or another box to box guy
> 
> But NOOOOOOO JK has insisted on playing Bradley further up and Beckerman sweeping in front of the back line.
> 
> Let's hope yesterday showed him the truth.




I thought the eleven players that finished the game was probably USA best eleven besides Orozco


----------



## Basement Cat

Savant said:


> I thought the eleven players that finished the game was probably USA best eleven besides Orozco




-----Wood
Pulisic----Dempsey
------Nagbe
---Bradley-Cameron
Johnson-Besler-Brooks-Yedlin


Or jones in for besler and Cameron at CB with jones cm

Thats what it is for me


----------



## Brock Anton

No Nagbe, and Orozco/Besler at fullback. Holy lord.


----------



## HajdukSplit

Lack of interest, fans sick of Klinsmann or pricing? The last couple of friendly matches have been played in front of half empty stadiums and we're not exactly talking NFL sized stadiums either

Compare that to Mexico who can sell out an NFL stadium against pretty much every team in the world, today against Paraguay 60,000+


----------



## Live in the Now

HajdukSplit said:


> Lack of interest, fans sick of Klinsmann or pricing? The last couple of friendly matches have been played in front of half empty stadiums and we're not exactly talking NFL sized stadiums either
> 
> Compare that to Mexico who can sell out an NFL stadium against pretty much every team in the world, today against Paraguay 60,000+




All three plus a lame opponent.


----------



## Brock Anton

HajdukSplit said:


> Lack of interest, fans sick of Klinsmann or pricing? The last couple of friendly matches have been played in front of half empty stadiums and we're not exactly talking NFL sized stadiums either
> 
> Compare that to Mexico who can sell out an NFL stadium against pretty much every team in the world, today against Paraguay 60,000+




All of the above (also, as LITN pointed out, lame opponent). As for the pricing, I saw that the cheapest seats for this match were $45. I wouldn't go either.


----------



## Brock Anton

Nice team goal there. Good ball over the top from Bedoya.


----------



## misterchainsaw

Bedoya's on fire. 2-0 up and Bolivia hasn't even had a sniff.


----------



## Brock Anton

Bedoya's been playing really well centrally... which means that Klinsmann will move him wide left.


----------



## misterchainsaw

Really strong half. I'll have to catch the rest of it later, but they've earned the 2-0 lead. Probably had the best couple of chances that didn't go in too.


----------



## Brock Anton

Fantastic work from Wood there.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

I guess there's a reason Bolivia is next to last in WC qualifying.


----------



## kingsboy11

Solid win. Pulisic and Nagbe showing well again. Good performance all around from everyone.


----------



## mmk786

Should they still fire Klinsmann?


----------



## Savant

mmk786 said:


> Should they still fire Klinsmann?




If they don't make it out of the group he certainly needs to be looked at


----------



## Ugmo

mmk786 said:


> Should they still fire Klinsmann?




Yes.


----------



## DaveG

mmk786 said:


> Should they still fire Klinsmann?




He should be gone regardless but if we don't even get out of the Hex there's zero doubt in my mind that ****canning him is the right move.


----------



## Basement Cat

mmk786 said:


> Should they still fire Klinsmann?




No, he beat Ecuador and Bolivia in friendlies...duhhhhh


----------



## Ivan94

Basement Cat said:


> Is this a serious question?
> 
> I meant it as "if everyone can see it, how come the guy getting paid millions can't?".




Because he is with the team. He can see things that twitter-coaches can't see.


----------



## Ugmo

Ivan94 said:


> Because he is with the team. He can see things that twitter-coaches can't see.




As a national team coach, he isn't really with the team all that often.


----------



## Basement Cat

Ivan94 said:


> Because he is with the team. He can see things that twitter-coaches can't see.






Ugmo said:


> As a national team coach, he isn't really with the team all that often.




Ok I completely understand that. But, you can't just use that excuse and absolve him of any wrongdoing all the time. You don't think that its possible that he is and has been wrong about this? I mean, look at Nagbe's contributions to the team these last 2 friendlies.


----------



## Ivan94

Basement Cat said:


> Ok I completely understand that. But, you can't just use that excuse and absolve him of any wrongdoing all the time. You don't think that its possible that he is and has been wrong about this? I mean, look at Nagbe's contributions to the team these last 2 friendlies.




I think he makes conscientious decisions. You can't evaluate that because you're not in his position. It's easy to say from outside: "this is wrong. 50 other twitter users can confirm that." 

listen to his facebook-live video from yesterday. maybe you will understand it a little better. He knows that many fans can't understand his decisions. Thats why he makes this live chats with fans regularly.
https://www.facebook.com/JuergenKlinsmann/


----------



## East Coast Bias

Ivan94 said:


> I think he makes conscientious decisions. You can't evaluate that because you're not in his position. It's easy to say from outside: "this is wrong. 50 other twitter users can confirm that."
> 
> listen to his facebook-live video from yesterday. maybe you will understand it a little better. He knows that many fans can't understand his decisions. Thats why he makes this live chats with fans regularly.
> https://www.facebook.com/JuergenKlinsmann/




Are you Edgar Castillo in disguise?

He's a clown. He can hide behind whatever he wants to, but it doesn't mean he doesn't consistently make bad decisions.


----------



## Ugmo

Klinsmann ****ing sucks as a coach. He's taken what used to be a legitimate Top 20 team and turned us into a team that's lucky to be Top 30, and somehow managed to get everyone to blame the players for it rather than his own horrible decisions. Would you want him coaching Croatia, Ivan? We're stuck with the guy because no one wants him at the salary we're paying him.


----------



## Ivan94

Ugmo said:


> Klinsmann ****ing sucks as a coach. He's taken what used to be a legitimate Top 20 team and turned us into a team that's lucky to be Top 30, and somehow managed to get everyone to blame the players for it rather than his own horrible decisions. Would you want him coaching Croatia, Ivan? We're stuck with the guy because no one wants him at the salary we're paying him.




Croatia couldn't pay his salary. even if, he would quit after a short time, because he couldn't work together with the croatian mafia federation.

he isn't an outstanding coach, but a good one. he overachieved with mediocre players in the 2014 world cup(the only important tournament since he is USMNT coach). we'll see what he does in the copa. I think you just expect too much from an average national team.


----------



## chasespace

Ivan94 said:


> Croatia couldn't pay his salary. even if, he would quit after a short time, because he couldn't work together with the croatian mafia federation.
> 
> he isn't an outstanding coach, but a good one. he overachieved with mediocre players in the 2014 world cup(the only important tournament since he is USMNT coach). we'll see what he does in the copa. I think you just expect too much from an average national team.




How did he overachieve in 2014? He went with a better squad than in 2010 and managed the exact same result


----------



## Ivan94

chasespace said:


> How did he overachieve in 2014? He went with a better squad than in 2010 and managed the exact same result




2010: easy group - lose against an equal strength opponent in second round.
2014: very strong group - lose against a strong opponent in second round.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

chasespace said:


> How did he overachieve in 2014? He went with a better squad than in 2010 and managed the exact same result




In 2014, they came through the Group of Death in which many pegged them to finish 4th. Subsequently lost in ET to a Belgian team that was one of the pre-tournament favourites to go deep. Won a single game, against the team who eliminated them in 2010. Drew Portugal in the group stage, having outplayed them most of the game until Ronaldo swooped in in the dying moments, if I recall right. 

In 2010, they made it through what was a fairly straight ahead group, in large part thanks to a major gaffe from Rob Green. Lost to Ghana in ET in the round of 16. Won a single game, against Algeria. Drew England in the group stage, thanks to a major Rob Green mistake. 

They went the same distance, but the quality of competition was far higher in 2014. There's a difference between making it through Germany, Portugal, Ghana and making it through England, Slovenia, Algeria.


----------



## Brock Anton

Ivan94 said:


> Croatia couldn't pay his salary. even if, he would quit after a short time, because he couldn't work together with the croatian mafia federation.
> 
> he isn't an outstanding coach, but a good one. he overachieved with mediocre players in the 2014 world cup(the only important tournament since he is USMNT coach). we'll see what he does in the copa. I think you just expect too much from an average national team.




Yeah, he got out of the group and that was great.... but everyone forgets that he did it playing the same exact bunker-and-counter system that Bradley employed and the same one that Klinsmann himself said he was going to change the first day he took the job. 

He's not a good coach. He's a good motivator, but he sucks tactically and he never takes responsibility for anything negative. I drank the Kool-Aid for the first couple years, but we've seen nothing but regression since Brazil. Not just at the senior level either, at all levels (remember he's the technical director as well, so he oversees the entire men's program). Twice under his watch we've failed to qualify for the Olympics (both times on home soil no less), and once we've failed to qualify for the U-17 WC and the U-20 WC, respectively. Three tournaments that we should qualify for every single time with relative ease. Plus don't me started on the 2015 Gold Cup disaster, any other country and he'd have been fired hours after the semifinal loss.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> They went the same distance, but the quality of competition was far higher in 2014. There's a difference between making it through Germany, Portugal, Ghana and making it through England, Slovenia, Algeria.




The USA played much better in 2010 than in 2014, results and quality of opponents aside.


----------



## Basement Cat

Ivan94 said:


> Croatia couldn't pay his salary. even if, he would quit after a short time, because he couldn't work together with the croatian mafia federation.
> 
> he isn't an outstanding coach, but a good one. he overachieved with mediocre players in the 2014 world cup(t*he only important tournament since he is USMNT coach*). we'll see what he does in the copa. I think you just expect too much from an average national team.




Who are you to say this? 

In CONCACAF, the Gold Cup is the most important trophy. Being the best team in the region is important to us. I don't know what it's like in Croatia. What did Klinsmann do in this tournament, that he said was _very important_ to win? Got outshot by Haiti and lost to Jamaica and Panama, all on home soil.

Winning that tournament would have sent the United States to the Confederations Cup. Again, no clue how you rate that tournament in Croatia, but here we find it pretty important to get a test run in the next year's World Cup nation against some quality opponents. 


Please stop patronizing us about how lucky we are to have Klinsmann, who you label a "good" manager


----------



## chasespace

Almost game time pham.

Guzan
Yedlin-Cameron-Brooks-Johnson
Bradley-Bedoya-Jones
Wood-Dempsey-Zardes


----------



## Cody Webster

Big game, LFG


----------



## chasespace

Not unsurprising start


----------



## misterchainsaw

This commentator is ahead of the play and it's really ****ing annoying...


----------



## NJDevs26

Savant said:


> If they don't make it out of the group he certainly needs to be looked at




Out of the group in World Cup qualifying or in the Copa? Cause the former and he'll be more than looked at, he will be fired if they don't qualify for 2018. I doubt he'd be fired if they flamed out at the Copa but that'd be REALLY bad to bomb in two straight home tournaments (Gold Cup, Copa).


----------



## Cody Webster

******** call


----------



## misterchainsaw

Meh. Looked like a hand ball to me, particularly live. Doesn't have to be intentional. His arm was out, as evidenced by the ball getting past his body before hitting his arm.


----------



## njdevsfn95

I'd rather have the overall play the US has had so far...

But good teams capitalize on mistakes (goal 1) and get a bit lucky (goal 2).


----------



## misterchainsaw

njdevsfn95 said:


> I'd rather have the overall play the US has had so far...
> 
> But good teams capitalize on mistakes (goal 1) and get a bit lucky (goal 2).



Yeah, they haven't really played that badly. Bad giveaway creating the attack by Bradley on the 2nd goal as well.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

After tonight's game, I'm looking so forward to not remembering Tuesday night's game.


----------



## kingsboy11

I was feeling pretty good about the squad after the past few games going in, but that game killed a lot of my optimism. Bradley was the worst player on the field today. I wasn't expecting a win, but I was at least hoping for a draw. Needs to be a lot better against the Ticos on Tuesday.


----------



## Brock Anton

The first half was completely respectable (aside from the score of course), the second? Not so much. Bradley put forth his worst performance in a U.S. shirt, by far, Jones was no better and Bedoya, aside from a few good hustle plays in the second half, was largely invisible.


----------



## Ugmo

****ing Klinsmann. ****ing Sunil Gulati. US Soccer = amateur hour


----------



## Big McLargehuge

At this point I don't even care enough to get mad.

Failure has become the expectation...thanks, JÃ¼rgen!


----------



## Brock Anton

This is shocking. 



> From Jones’ perspective, however, the Americans were primed to lose the battle in midfield because they made such a major adjustment to deal with the specter of Cuadrado zipping up and down the Americans’ left flank that it unbalanced the US squad.
> 
> “The game plan was the whole time that we double Cuadrado on the left side, and that was, for me, the main thing,” Jones said. “So I have to give a lot of energy to work back and help [left back Fabian Johnson]. . . . So I came away from my own game.”
> 
> Essentially, the US was so concerned about Cuadrado -- who played in 28 matches, starting 16, during Juventus’ Serie A championship-winning campaign last season -- that they abandoned the scheme that made them successful in the run up to this tournament.
> 
> “I think that we have to be more focused on us, play with that what we have,” Jones said. “We have three midfielders where I feel like if we have a good game plan, we can put a lot of pressure on other teams. Today was more focused on Colombia and on the left side to help Fabi, so we lost one guy in midfield. So it was tougher to play, yeah."


----------



## Big McLargehuge

Obligatory


----------



## Ugmo

Great "game plan" Coach. Or even, great game plan, "Coach."


----------



## IU Hawks fan

Anyone coming here for the game Tuesday?


----------



## John Price

IU Hawks fan said:


> Anyone coming here for the game Tuesday?




no will u be ther


----------



## Ugmo

Mike Emrick said:


> no will u be ther




What the ****? Is this English?


----------



## IU Hawks fan

That I will.


----------



## John Price

IU Hawks fan said:


> That I will.




Neat. 

What about Murray.


----------



## MurrayBannerman

I'll be there for a bit.


----------



## Cody Webster

Gonna miss this one due to a hockey game tonight, kinda pissed


----------



## Basement Cat

After never playing the same lineup twice in a row for the last 2 years, Klinsi looked at the Colombia lineup and said, "I like what I see." 

Let's hope he is right.

I would've liked to see Nagbe start.


----------



## Brock Anton

I'm actually fine with the same lineup... as long as Jones isn't tracking Campbell all night.


----------



## Basement Cat

Brock Anton said:


> I'm actually fine with the same lineup... as long as Jones isn't tracking Campbell all night.




don't think nagbe in for jones or bedoya would be better?


----------



## Brock Anton

Basement Cat said:


> don't think nagbe in for jones or bedoya would be better?




Sure, but I'm not against some continuity for once. This team _should _be good enough to beat Costa Rica at home.


----------



## Cochese

Gonna get bounced tonight.


----------



## Brock Anton

The Cheeseman said:


> Gonna get bounced tonight.




cool


----------



## Cochese

Very cool.


----------



## Brock Anton

Gotta pull the trigger quicker there Bobby.


----------



## Basement Cat

Brock Anton said:


> cool




Lmao this guy is a riot


----------



## John Price

This team can't be underestimated with backs against wall. Came out determined to avoid a loss. Strong defensively. Always in front of Costa Rica blocking shots and they can't get anything going. Plus the offensive attack. Strong first half


----------



## Basement Cat

The Cheeseman said:


> Gonna get bounced tonight.




Awfully quiet buddy


----------



## Cochese

Basement Cat said:


> Awfully quiet buddy




I'm quiet because I'm at work 

You guys should want that to get rid of that clown Klinsmann.


----------



## NJDevs26

Mike Emrick said:


> This team can't be underestimated with backs against wall. Came out determined to avoid a loss. Strong defensively. Always in front of Costa Rica blocking shots and they can't get anything going. Plus the offensive attack. Strong first half




Well it would have been nice if they responded like this in the Gold Cup or the playoff against Mexico...but yeah this looks like the last qualifier against Guatemala.


----------



## Basement Cat

The Cheeseman said:


> I'm quiet because I'm at work
> 
> You guys should want that to get rid of that clown Klinsmann.




I agree on that point.


----------



## John Price

This seesaw affair with Klinsmann probably means he coaches out his contract. You'll have baffling losses and then games like this. 

He ain't going nowhere for now.


----------



## NJDevs26

Mike Emrick said:


> This seesaw affair with Klinsmann probably means he coaches out his contract. You'll have baffling losses and then games like this.
> 
> He ain't going nowhere for now.




If they get bounced in the first knockout round (maybe even the semis) I could definitely see a change. That would be yet another uninspiring home loss in a tournament.


----------



## Ar-too

Watching the game, the first half is fool's gold. Costa Rica had plenty of chances. 

Bobby Wood's goal though...


----------



## Basement Cat

Ar-too said:


> Watching the game, the first half is fool's gold. Costa Rica had plenty of chances.
> 
> Bobby Wood's goal though...




Honestly think we played better in the first half against Colombia if that's even conceivable. That said, you can't argue with 4-0. That is dominance.

Still would prefer to see Nagbe start from the onset, maybe over Zardes. Would help a ton in possession. We struggled the first ten minutes when CR pressed us hard.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Basement Cat said:


> Honestly think we played better in the first half against Colombia if that's even conceivable. That said, you can't argue with 4-0. That is dominance.
> 
> *Still would prefer to see Nagbe start from the onset, maybe over Zardes*. Would help a ton in possession. We struggled the first ten minutes when CR pressed us hard.




Who are you putting on the wing though? Not sure that's Nagbe's strong suit. Guess you put Bedoya out there and have a mid 3 of Jones, Bradley and Nagbe (if he stays with the 4-3-3)


----------



## Basement Cat

East Coast Bias said:


> Who are you putting on the wing though? Not sure that's Nagbe's strong suit. Guess you put Bedoya out there and have a mid 3 of Jones, Bradley and Nagbe (if he stays with the 4-3-3)




We moved to a 4-4-2 yesterday anyways...so go with a narrow diamon

Dempsey-Wood
Nagbe
Jones-Bedoya
Bradley
Same back line


Lets the fullbacks zip up and down the flanks with ample cover behind them. Allows Wood to play his actual position. And Nagbe helps so much in terms of possession.


----------



## John Price




----------



## John Price

While some of his tactical lineups and playing players out of position can be questioned, this has been a solid 3 games for him. They lost to a damn good Colombia team, and beat two teams they should have beaten handily. There were no shocking "Guatemala beats the US" / "Jamaica / Panama upsets the US" outcomes, just wins.

One criticism of Klinsmann has been his inconsistency. Planet Futbol pointed out that the US team started off well in friendlies against Germany and the Netherlands, only to falter in the Gold Cup when it mattered the most. To his credit, after similar hype going into this tournament, the USA, suffice it to say, has delivered on said hype.

We'll see what happens in the next stages, I'm sure a loss to a watered-down Brazil will generate immense amounts of seethe and restart the "Fire Klinsmann" wagon. But for now, there's no argument for firing him. He's doing well, and he's won the games he's supposed to win.


----------



## Ugmo

Still can't stand Klinsmann, but congratulations to him and the boys.


----------



## Panteras

Mike Emrick said:


>




lol I remember they did this for Howard after that Belgium game at the WC


----------



## Ugmo

Pretty sure they also did it to Brooks after the Ghana game.


----------



## njdevsfn95

Awww Wikipedia changed it back for "accuracy" sake 

JK played the same starting lineup 3 games in a row for the first time in USMNT history since....1930!

Hope Seattle brings the noise.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

As hard as it is to get excited about this team, I'm pleased with the way this has gone so far.


----------



## DaveG

Mike Emrick said:


> While some of his tactical lineups and playing players out of position can be questioned, this has been a solid 3 games for him. They lost to a damn good Colombia team, and beat two teams they should have beaten handily. There were no shocking "Guatemala beats the US" / "Jamaica / Panama upsets the US" outcomes, just wins.
> 
> One criticism of Klinsmann has been his inconsistency. Planet Futbol pointed out that the US team started off well in friendlies against Germany and the Netherlands, only to falter in the Gold Cup when it mattered the most. To his credit, after similar hype going into this tournament, the USA, suffice it to say, has delivered on said hype.
> 
> We'll see what happens in the next stages, I'm sure a loss to a watered-down Brazil will generate immense amounts of seethe and restart the "Fire Klinsmann" wagon. But for now, there's no argument for firing him. He's doing well, and he's won the games he's supposed to win.




Still a good chance we end up with Ecuador in the next game. We may be able to handle that one even without Yedlin.

I'm pleased with the results and especially the efforts so far in Copa America, huge change from the Gold Cup in that regard, where we should have absolutely cruised to the title and the confed cup bid.


----------



## Carolinas Identity*

The fact we are not 4-0 with like a +20 GD in our WC qualifying group is embarrassing.


----------



## John Price

Have beaten Ecuador 1-0 lately. Will play them again Thursday night. 

Got to look good for the US and it's not Brazil. Doesn't mean we can slack off though. Beat that ass and advance.


----------



## Savant

Beat Ecuador


----------



## hockeykicker

beat ecuador and play argentina or mexico/venezula in next round.


----------



## John Price

The story of Jurgen Klinsmann during his US tenure is a mixed bag. You can't conclusively say that he's got to go or that he's got to stay. There needs to be more time. 

They've got a foundation for something good to go on. But they've also had baffling inconsistency and 2015 was a pretty bad year for the program. They've suffered setbacks following their strong World Cup performance. 

Re-making the US into a soccer power on the likes of Portugal, Brazil, Spain, et cetera isn't easy. Things are inherently going to be different for the US than for other countries. So Jurgen's got a very difficult job to do making this team elite. 

Let's see what happens after 2018. Then we can see whether he remains the right man or not. Let the guy coach out his contract because right now, I'm not sure who we could get that could do a better job. If you were going to fire him, you should have fired him last year. The seat's cooled off since then.


----------



## Ugmo

The idea of Klinsmann staying on past 2018 is enough to make me want to hang myself. He wasn't hired to be "a mixed bag." He wasn't hired to suddenly win three games in a row five years into his tenure with a bunch of guys in their 30s. He was hired to conclusively elevate the program, and he hasn't even come close to that. He's being paid far more than his predecessors to get essentially the same results. I am resigned to the fact that he'll never be fired because Sunil. If his contracted is extended beyond 2018 I can see myself following Austria full-time.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

More time?

More _time_?

How many generations are we planning on writing off? Klinsmann is already the second most tenured US coach in history.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

A Copa SF is however one of the biggest successes in U.S. soccer's history. Given that they did okay at the World Cup I can see how that would buy him time for sure.


----------



## Ugmo

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> *A Copa SF is however one of the biggest successes in U.S. soccer's history.* Given that they did okay at the World Cup I can see how that would buy him time for sure.




Know who else accomplished that? Steve Sampson. Generally regarded as the worst U.S. coach of the modern era. And he did it on South American soil, to boot.

I don't know that I'd say it will buy him time. He didn't need that. We're stuck with him until 2018 regardless, unless he somehow ****s up WC qualifying (which wouldn't totally surprise me).


EDIT: Sampson got fired because of the "last place" finish at WC 1998. Funny thing about that World Cup though was that in terms of all the statistics (passing, shots, possession, etc. - everything except goals scored), the U.S. was actually better than the 2014 version. In 2014 the U.S. got badly outplayed by just about every measure, yet for some reason it's celebrated as an outstanding performance. And then we got manhandled by Belgium. In large measure it is Klinsmann's celebrity that has saved his job so far. Bob Bradley didn't get that privilege despite performing about equal in 2010.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

To be fair here, in 2014 the U.S. got out of a group in which they very likely were the 4th most talented team. I think a bit too much was made of that in terms of P.R. but making it out of the group *was* a success.


----------



## Ugmo

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> To be fair here, in 2014 the U.S. got out of a group in which they very likely were the 4th most talented team. I think a bit too much was made of that in terms of P.R. but making it out of the group *was* a success.




Sure, it was clearly a success on paper. I give Klinsmann very little of the credit for that and think most of his predecessors would have achieved the same thing without all the patroznizing bull**** we have to put up with from Klinsmann.


----------



## Brock Anton

I don't think you'll find anyone who didn't find the 2014 WC to be a net success, but as Ugmo said, the criticism is there because of the way the team played. Aside from like 45-50 minutes in the Portugal match, we were vastly outclassed in each in every game. 

Bradley, while having a far easier group in 2010, at least had his team look a threat going forward... with far lesser talent. I mean come on, we started the likes of Edson Buddle and Robbie ****ing Findley in South Africa. Even Wondo is on a different level than those two.


----------



## kingsboy11

What I will give Klinnsman credit where he is very ambitious and it has changed the expectations of the National team. I don't want to be just satisfied with Gold Cup victories. I want more. The problem with Klinnsman is that just not a very good coach who refuses to put any blame on himself for the losses and takes all the credit for when the team does well. He's failed a lot of expectations that he set for himself. He failed to win the gold cup last year which we should win almost everytime, failed to qualify for confederations cup, failed to qualify for the olympics this year for the 2nd straight time. He can claim that we got out of the group of death, but honestly we didn't play any better than Bradley did South Africa and it took Tim Howard having the game of his life to prevent a Chile vs. Mexico scoreline. 

And his goal is to make the semi finals in Russia in 2 years? I will be absolutely shocked if we made it that far in Russia.


----------



## chasespace

I really do wish a deal could be worked out to push Jurgen to the technical director role and oversee US soccer from the top down but a new manager is brought in to run the national team. Jurgen is great at building things, not at running them.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

I don't really understand the argument that Klinsmann's all of a sudden a coach who you think is a mixed bag where its too close to tell whether he should stay or go.

These are the two arguments I think are valid.

Option 1: Klinsmann's not achieved objectives as NT coach so far and you don't have confidence in him achieving objectives going forward

Option 2: Short term objectives don't matter, whether or not he's achieved those objectives, which can be debated, but don't need to be right now. This is a long term project, and results like what's happened so far in the Copa America are proof that the long term project is going well.


----------



## Ugmo

It's okay to lose to Argentina. It's okay to lose big to Argentina. It's not okay to run out a bunch of over-the-hill players who were mediocre even in their prime, like Beckerman and Wondo. I'm so tired of Klinsmann.


----------



## Big McLargehuge

The second I saw Wondolowski in the starting 11 is the second I knew a possible respectable 2-0 loss was going to turn into an ugly 4/5/6-0 loss. Wondo does one thing well, and that one thing is never going to have a chance to shine through against a team of Argentina's quality. He's utterly useless unless we're playing a team of Cuba's caliber.

Beckerman...I get why he was in the starting 11, but it's clear that he's toast outside of a 10-20 minute cameo at this point in time.


----------



## Brock Anton

I'm just still trying to figure out what exactly his plan last night was.... if there even was one.


----------



## bluesfan94

bluesfan94 said:


> If I were America, I would play a 4-3-3
> 
> Johnson - Zardes - Pulisic
> Dempsey - Bradley - Beckerman
> Besler - Brooks - Cameron - Yedlin




Would have gone with either the above or

Dempsey - Zardes/Pulisic
Johnson - Nagbe - Bradley - Beckerman - Yedlin
Besler - Brooks - Cameron 
Howard 

I know Guzan is our starter but - and this is speaking with hindsight - I've never been impressed by him. First goal he played terribly. Second goal was obviously unstoppable. Didn't see the last 2 cause I had to go to a birthday party.


----------



## Brock Anton

The last two goals were because of turnovers. Higuain ended up 1v1 with Guzan on the 3rd (Guzan saved the 1st shot, but the rebound bounced right back to him) and the 4th goal was just an awful giveaway from Bradley/Birnbaum and Argentina were in 2v0. 

Outside of the first goal, which Guzan just played awfully, he was blameless on the other three.


----------



## kingsboy11

I knew we would be in trouble the minute Wondo was named to the roster and Morris was left off. If one of the forwards got hurt or suspended then Wondo would be the only forward to come in. And I love Wondo and I want to see him succeed, but he was the wrong person to bring in this tournament. 

Even if we didn't have 3 of our starters get suspended I still think Argentina scores 3+ goals because they're that much better than us.


----------



## Ugmo

Has there ever been a U.S. coach (or indeed _any_ coach) who has gotten such a free ride from so many people because our players supposedly suck? It's baffling. That's never, ever been an excuse before, but JÃ¼rgen just gets carte blanche for all the ****** performances because hey, how can you expect a coach to get a team to perform above its technical abilities? Surely that's never happened before!


----------



## Gooch

Ugmo said:


> Has there ever been a U.S. coach (or indeed _any_ coach) who has gotten such a free ride from so many people because our players supposedly suck? It's baffling. That's never, ever been an excuse before, but JÃ¼rgen just gets carte blanche for all the shitty performances because hey, how can you expect a coach to get a team to perform above its technical abilities? Surely that's never happened before!





Klinnsman has overperformed with the roster he has had. If you expected the US to have done better than I just dont know what planet you're on. Our players are NOT good enough. We have maybe one player from our roster that could make a big team and that would be as a squad player and not a starter. To expect that kind of team to plow through a tournament through the likes of teams like Columbia/Chile/Argentina is not grounded in reality. I am 100% satisfied with the results from the team. I expected an asskicking from Argentina and we got it, no surprise there. 

National team managers by in large are crappy, if they were any good they'd be managing top clubs. It's either that or they're doing their equivalent MLS tour check out job as they gracefully retire from their profession. To most fans of other national teams they would rate the USA as a team that consistently overperforms their abilities under Klinnsman. In the end isnt that what a manger is supposed to do? I mean best case scenario he has had extremely impressive performances in the last 2 out of 3 major tournaments with those two being of much higher prestige and challenge than the gold cup disappointment. 

That's not the reason I like Klinnsman though. I like him because he's not part of the MLS circle-jerk. I fear that any replacement of him will simply be from that stock and we're going to get the same or worse immediate results while having mediocrity for the future. At least under Klinnsman I have high hopes we'll get better and he'll work towards restructuring how soccer is done in this country. He seems to be taking a vested interest in that aspect of his job and that shouldn't be something so readily cast aside by fans of the team.


----------



## Ugmo

Gooch said:


> Klinnsman has overperformed with the roster he has had. If you expected the US to have done better than I just dont know what planet you're on. Our players are NOT good enough. We have maybe one player from our roster that could make a big team and that would be as a squad player and not a starter. To expect that kind of team to plow through a tournament through the likes of teams like Columbia/Chile/Argentina is not grounded in reality. I am 100% satisfied with the results from the team. I expected an asskicking from Argentina and we got it, no surprise there.
> 
> National team managers by in large are crappy, if they were any good they'd be managing top clubs. It's either that or they're doing their equivalent MLS tour check out job as they gracefully retire from their profession. To most fans of other national teams they would rate the USA as a team that consistently overperforms their abilities under Klinnsman. In the end isnt that what a manger is supposed to do? I mean best case scenario he has had extremely impressive performances in the last 2 out of 3 major tournaments with those two being of much higher prestige and challenge than the gold cup disappointment.
> 
> That's not the reason I like Klinnsman though. I like him because he's not part of the MLS circle-jerk. I fear that any replacement of him will simply be from that stock and we're going to get the same or worse immediate results while having mediocrity for the future. At least under Klinnsman I have high hopes we'll get better and he'll work towards restructuring how soccer is done in this country. He seems to be taking a vested interest in that aspect of his job and that shouldn't be something so readily cast aside by fans of the team.





Like I said, has there ever been a coach that has been given a total free ride by so many fans like Klinsmann because "the players suck"? This guy was hired to elevate the program and is being paid handsomely to achieve that, and has made no discernible progress toward that goal. If he were an American being paid a fraction fo that salary, you'd be calling for his head. But nope, he's JÃ¼rgen Klinsmann, former world-class player from a country that's good at soccer, therefore you completely ignore his massive failings and blame everything on the players.

Some racket he's got going there.

p.s. That vested interest he'd taking in "restructuring how soccer is done in this country" is about as successful as his **** show with the senior team. The results of our youth teams are horrible. But apparently the guy in charge isn't to blame for that either.


----------



## Gooch

Ugmo said:


> Like I said, has there ever been a coach that has been given a total free ride by so many fans like Klinsmann because "the players suck"? This guy was hired to elevate the program and is being paid handsomely to achieve that, and has made no discernible progress toward that goal. If he were an American being paid a fraction fo that salary, you'd be calling for his head. But nope, he's JÃ¼rgen Klinsmann, former world-class player from a country that's good at soccer, therefore you completely ignore his massive failings and blame everything on the players.
> 
> Some racket he's got going there.
> 
> p.s. That vested interest he'd taking in "restructuring how soccer is done in this country" is about as successful as his **** show with the senior team. The results of our youth teams are horrible. But apparently the guy in charge isn't to blame for that either.




You don't think this last tournament was a success? What expectations did you have? Have you thought that maybe you're unrealistic about what you expect from this national team? By all objective standards Klinnsman has overperformed in many tournaments with this team. On paper the United States should've never of made it out of the group of death in the last world cup and finishing first in a group with Columbia in this last Copa America and beating Ecuador in elimination stages only to fall to a red hot Argentina with a fully functional Messi that has been wiping the floor with previous teams without that Messi is nothing to be ashamed about, it should be celebrated. 

Any changes that Klinnsman were supposed to make were generational types anyways. The progress of which we won't see for many years. The fact that he's been actually doing quite well with this **** team in the meantime is only icing on the cake. I really just don't know what you expect out of him.


----------



## njdevsfn95

The worst the USMNT can do in this tournament is lose to the #1 and #3 nations in the current FIFA ranking (Colombia will fall and Chile will rise in the next rankings).

We beat, not drew, the other 3 nations. Two of those are ranked above us at the moment.

Not getting to the Final of the Gold Cup should always be concerning but if this tournament isn't considered at least an improvement on the last, I dunno what to say.


----------



## Gooch

njdevsfn95 said:


> The worst the USMNT can do in this tournament is lose to the #1 and #3 nations in the current FIFA ranking (Colombia will fall and Chile will rise in the next rankings).
> 
> We beat, not drew, the other 3 nations. Two of those are ranked above us at the moment.
> 
> Not getting to the Final of the Gold Cup should always be concerning but if this tournament isn't considered at least an improvement on the last, I dunno what to say.




That's my take, the WC and this last tourney were significant successes. I expected USA to lose quite handedly to Argentina and that happened. I didnt have delusions of grandeur that we were going to pull of some 1980's miracle on ice crap against them. I dunno why we just can't be happy with how things finished up. 

There are a lot of national teams out there with much less impressive records while also having a lot more actual talent on the team. England has been perennial underachievers despite having a rather impressive roster talent wise. Portugal has a pretty impressive roster and they frequently suck on the international stage. Mexico by in large has more talent than the USA yet we routinely finish above them and beat them (at least we didnt get 7-0'd).

And if we want to talk about just more recent disappointing performances. Netherlands didnt even qualify for the Euro's when seemingly everyone and their grandma was due to the new format. Uruguay having a much more impressive roster than USA failing to get out of group stage, Brazil with a much better roster than the USA even with their B team playing is still head and shoulders more talented than the USA failed to get out of group. 

When I look at USA under Klinnsman I continuously see a team that over performs realistic expectations based on the players talent levels. That is usually the metric used to judge whether a manager is worth a damn or not, whether he gets the most out of his players. How can it be sanely argued that the U.S. players have that much more to give, that many better performances to put forth than we have already seen?


----------



## Ugmo

Gooch said:


> You don't think this last tournament was a success? What expectations did you have? Have you thought that maybe you're unrealistic about what you expect from this national team? By all objective standards Klinnsman has overperformed in many tournaments with this team. On paper the United States should've never of made it out of the group of death in the last world cup and finishing first in a group with Columbia in this last Copa America and beating Ecuador in elimination stages only to fall to a red hot Argentina with a fully functional Messi that has been wiping the floor with previous teams without that Messi is nothing to be ashamed about, it should be celebrated.
> 
> Any changes that Klinnsman were supposed to make were generational types anyways. The progress of which we won't see for many years. The fact that he's been actually doing quite well with this **** team in the meantime is only icing on the cake. I really just don't know what you expect out of him.





I'm asking you what progress we've made since Klinsmann has been at the helm, considering that that's the reason why he was hired and given a princely salary. Copa America semis? We achieved that already (on foreign soil no less) with the guy who is generally considered to be the worst U.S. coach of the modern era.

Klinsmann is a mediocre-to-bad coach who continually chokes against good teams by fielding timid, overmatched lineups. What the **** was Beckerman doing out there? Wondo? These guys were mediocre in their prime, and their prime is long past. Offering old, slow players like that as sacrificial lambs against Argentina is coaching scared.

More to the point, was this tournament a success? 3 wins and 2 losses (two losses in which we were completely demolished) five years into Klinsmann's tenure, with a bunch of 30-something players... this is what Klinsmann was hired for? No, it certainly wasn't what he was hired for. He wasn't hired to muddle through with similar-to-worse results than his predecessors at a far higher salary. He was hired to elevate the program, and he has completely failed at that mission. He should be fired, period. If he were American he would have been gone by the end of 2015 at the absolute latest, but Sunil is apparently as dazzled by his celebrity as much of the fanbase.

And no, he hasn't been "doing quite well with this **** team", he's been losing to and getting outplayed by teams that had never beaten us in the modern era despite having a deeper player pool than any of his predecessors. You're once again giving him a total free pass because you've convinced yourself our players suck. They don't suck any worse than Panama's players. They don't suck any worse than Jamaica's players. They don't suck any worse than Haiti's players, who nonetheless managed to vastly outshoot us. When you get to the point at which you're excusing those shoddy performances by blaming the players exclusively, you're in fanboy territory and probably aren't capable of reasonably assessing the coach's performance in the first place.


----------



## cgf

While the results argument is reasonable. There's more to football than just results. Especially when it comes to developing a NT tactically. The US still doesn't even try to play modern football, and that is a fair critique of Jurgen; even if it doesn't negate the success he's had relative to expectations.

E:
It's a little unreasonable to say that Klinsi did it with 30years olds when the most impressive americans where Brooks & Pulisic, while other players who have yet to hit their primes like Nagbe, Zardes, and Johnson did well as well.


----------



## Live in the Now

It's fair to say now that Klinsmann has done a good job. A national team coach only has so much they can actually do to make the team better. Could the US be better than they are right now? Maybe they could be more consistent in the qualifying games leading up to the WC. Otherwise, no.


----------



## cgf

Live in the Now said:


> It's fair to say now that Klinsmann has done a good job. A national team coach only has so much they can actually do to make the team better. Could the US be better than they are right now? Maybe they could be more consistent in the qualifying games leading up to the WC. Otherwise, no.




Can they achieve better results? No. But can they play better football while achieving those results? Yes. And that's a fair complaint of a coach who will soon be shepherding in the strongest generation the US has produced to date.


----------



## Gooch

Ugmo said:


> I'm asking you what progress we've made since Klinsmann has been at the helm, considering that that's the reason why he was hired and given a princely salary. Copa America semis? We achieved that already (on foreign soil no less) with the guy who is generally considered to be the worst U.S. coach of the modern era.
> 
> Klinsmann is a mediocre-to-bad coach who continually chokes against good teams by fielding timid, overmatched lineups. What the **** was Beckerman doing out there? Wondo? These guys were mediocre in their prime, and their prime is long past. Offering old, slow players like that as sacrificial lambs against Argentina is coaching scared.
> 
> More to the point, was this tournament a success? 3 wins and 2 losses (two losses in which we were completely demolished) five years into Klinsmann's tenure, with a bunch of 30-something players... this is what Klinsmann was hired for? No, it certainly wasn't what he was hired for. He wasn't hired to muddle through with similar-to-worse results than his predecessors at a far higher salary. He was hired to elevate the program, and he has completely failed at that mission. He should be fired, period. If he were American he would have been gone by the end of 2015 at the absolute latest, but Sunil is apparently as dazzled by his celebrity as much of the fanbase.




Those losses were to a freakish bearded Messi lead Argentina which is white hot and a top notch Columbian team. I mean if we're gonna get losses that's not bad options to lose to. Would you rather be Brazil right now, or Mexico? 

I feel you're doing your valid argument of questioning tactics a disservice by trying to imply we should've done better at these tournaments. I can agree that I don't agree with personnel choices and tactical adjustments but where you lose me is how you just somehow assume we could somehow finish better than we did with just some other manager. That's just not grounded in reality, those teams are just flat out better than us and that really isnt just opinion it is fact.


----------



## Live in the Now

cgf said:


> Can they achieve better results? No. But can they play better football while achieving those results? Yes. And that's a fair complaint of a coach who will soon be shepherding in the strongest generation the US has produced to date.



The US gets blown apart when trying to play good football against teams much better than us, so I don't think so. I also think the way they play against comparable teams like Ecuador, Costa Rica, and Paraguay is perfectly fine. 

The problem is that American players don't have the technical skill to play proper football against the best footballing nations and that's due to the development of our players. 

Personally I don't hold NT managers in much regard to begin with. It's nowhere near as difficult a job as club football. The players are effectively handed to Jurgen with him having no input in their career tracks. Some of the players also refused to listen to his suggestions for their club careers. I'm no fan of JK and think we could have a better manager but I do wonder if we'd see an improvement in our results. Probably not.


----------



## Basement Cat

Everyone and their grandmother knew at 7PM Tuesday night, when that lineup came out, we had absolutely 0 shot of winning that game. I gave us maybe a 5-10% chance of advancing past Argentina before 7PM Tuesday, but once I saw Klinsmann's lineup and clear lack of a game plan, it was over. The guy is clueless when it comes to tactics, just ask Lahm what he think of JK. Furthermore, throughout his entire tenure he has spoken out of both sides of his mouth. Claims to try to play proactive soccer, but rarely plays with a real CAM (and gets outshot on home soil by Haiti and Jamaica lmao). I realize that he isn't going anywhere at this stage. We are stuck with him until Russia.


----------



## Live in the Now

Basement Cat said:


> Everyone and their grandmother knew at 7PM Tuesday night, when that lineup came out, we had absolutely 0 shot of winning that game. I gave us maybe a 5-10% chance of advancing past Argentina before 7PM Tuesday, but once I saw Klinsmann's lineup and clear lack of a game plan, it was over. The guy is clueless when it comes to tactics, just ask Lahm what he think of JK. Furthermore, throughout his entire tenure he has spoken out of both sides of his mouth. Claims to try to play proactive soccer, but rarely plays with a real CAM (and gets outshot on home soil by Haiti and Jamaica lmao). I realize that he isn't going anywhere at this stage. We are stuck with him until Russia.



Anyone who didn't know we were going to get blown out well in advance of that game drank too much Kool-Aid. It has literally nothing to do with tactics. We do not have a single player that would get into Argentina's squad and they were playing fantastic football coming into the game. Was nothing like when Argentina had to play Iran in 2014.

The US can beat teams like Argentina, but they have to catch them in the right moment. Tuesday was not that moment.


----------



## Ugmo

njdevsfn95 said:


> The worst the USMNT can do in this tournament is lose to the #1 and #3 nations in the current FIFA ranking (Colombia will fall and Chile will rise in the next rankings).
> 
> We beat, not drew, the other 3 nations. Two of those are ranked above us at the moment.
> 
> Not getting to the Final of the Gold Cup should always be concerning but if this tournament isn't considered at least an improvement on the last, I dunno what to say.





We would have had to completely vomit all over ourselves on the field to do worse than at the Gold Cup, so yeah, it's an improvement. And it's not saying much.

Is this seriously what Klinsmann was hired for... to do reasonably well for several games with a bunch of players in their mid-30s and then get demolished by Argentina without a single shot on goal?

If Sunil Gulati had told you five years ago that this would happen, you'd have told Gulati not to hire Klinsmann. Unfortunately the hallmark of the Klinsmann era is that he's so good at selling snake oil that everyone is convinced no one can possibly do a better job with the horrible players we have, therefore he doesn't deserve any of the blame. It's baffling that so many people are willing to excuse his ****** coaching.


----------



## Ugmo

Live in the Now said:


> Anyone who didn't know we were going to get blown out well in advance of that game drank too much Kool-Aid. It has literally nothing to do with tactics. We do not have a single player that would get into Argentina's squad and they were playing fantastic football coming into the game. Was nothing like when Argentina had to play Iran in 2014.




We didn't have a single player that would have gotten into Spain's squad in 2009 and we beat them in a competitive game. We didn't have a single player that would have gotten into Brazil's squad the game after that, and still led them 2-0 at the half and almost beat them. I'm utterly tired of people excusing Klinsmann's ****** coaching by blaming all of our losses on the quality of our players.


----------



## Gooch

cgf said:


> Can they achieve better results? No. But can they play better football while achieving those results? Yes. And that's a fair complaint of a coach who will soon be shepherding in the strongest generation the US has produced to date.




I can agree with that, but can you agree that we certainly could see a lot worse? Right now we have a manager taking this team to results above their abilities, it can very easily go the other way around with another manager. You think England wouldnt like a NT manager that would get their squad to perform better than their talent? 

You can talk to almost any national team fan and find huge complaints about how their manager does things. Look at how much complaining was done about Germany and their use of no FB's and a false 9 instead of a striker all throughout the 2014 WC. France's manager is routinely ripped for tinkering and barely sqeaking out wins, Conte's team selection was roundly criticized for lacking offensive threats before the Euro's. I see Spain fans completely hating on VDB and claiming their success was entirely in spite of him and not because of him. Belgium fans seem to want Wilmots to **** off as well, is there one national team manager that the fans almost resoundingly approve of?


----------



## Live in the Now

Ugmo said:


> We didn't have a single player that would have gotten into Spain's squad in 2009 and we beat them in a competitive game. We didn't have a single player that would have gotten into Brazil's squad the game after that, and still led them 2-0 at the half and almost beat them. I'm utterly tired of people excusing Klinsmann's ****** coaching by blaming all of our losses on the quality of our players.



Yes, that is called catching them in the right moment. The Argentina of right now is far better than those teams, and a much worse matchup.


----------



## Basement Cat

Live in the Now said:


> Anyone who didn't know we were going to get blown out well in advance of that game drank too much Kool-Aid. It has literally nothing to do with tactics. We do not have a single player that would get into Argentina's squad.




Completely disagree. At leas t give yourself a ****ing shot. 

Against Argentina our best bet was to sit back and then counter. Pose some semblance of a threat on the counter that their back line would have to respect, at least a little bit.

Instead we get:

1) Wondo (who should not have been on the roster) and Dempsey up top. Playing our two slowest strikers in the entire pool. Yea, that'll be a huuuuge threat, as well as Zusi on one of the flanks 

2) Playing only 2 CMs against Argentina's 4-3-3??? Is that serious? Obviously Beckerman (who should not have been on the roster) and Bradley were going to be suffocated in the middle of the park.

Why not play Johnson out wide at LM, Nagbe behind Dempsey, and Zardes at RM? These are guys who would actually be able to combine with Dempsey on the counter and maybe muster a single shot. You saw how futile Wondo and Zusi looked. And Bradley had nobody to pick out for a long ball besides Zardes. It was embarrassing.


----------



## Ugmo

Live in the Now said:


> The US can beat teams like Argentina, but they have to catch them in the right moment.




Not with Klinsmann we can't. He coaches scared every time we face a dominant opponent. He throws out the most timid possible lineups and doesn't even give our players a chance to win, even though they are theoretically capable of it.


----------



## Ugmo

Live in the Now said:


> Yes, that is called catching them in the right moment. *The Argentina of right now is far better than those teams*, and a much worse matchup.




No they're not. That was the Spain team that went something like 30 games in a row without a defeat until they ran into us, and went on to win the World Cup the next year. That team was a juggernaut, and we beat them because Bradley is a better tactician than Klinsmann.


----------



## Gooch

Ugmo said:


> We didn't have a single player that would have gotten into Spain's squad in 2009 and we beat them in a competitive game. We didn't have a single player that would have gotten into Brazil's squad the game after that, and still led them 2-0 at the half and almost beat them. I'm utterly tired of people excusing Klinsmann's ****** coaching by blaming all of our losses on the quality of our players.




What you're asking for is to catch lightning in a bottle for every match. It's just not realistic, you need to ground your expectations more in reality. Those were anomalies and not something we should expect to be the norm.


----------



## Live in the Now

Basement Cat said:


> Completely disagree. At leas t give yourself a ****ing shot.
> 
> Against Argentina our best bet was to sit back and then counter.




Don't you think the US wanted to sit back and counter? That plan changes when our sorry goalkeeper doesn't come out to get a chipped through ball. It changes when Messi scores a worldie out of nothing. 



> Pose some semblance of a threat on the counter that their back line would have to respect, at least a little bit.




Which of the players in this squad do you think a team like Argentina has to respect? I seriously want to know. Is it the guy with goofy hair and the first touch of a brick? Old Clint Dempsey? Or is it our players that look like baristas and never played against world class competition in their club careers? A 17 year old bench player? 

None of these suggestions would have changed the result of the game and in some cases made it worse. 



Ugmo said:


> Not with Klinsmann we can't. He coaches scared every time we face a dominant opponent. He throws out the most timid possible lineups and doesn't even give our players a chance to win, even though they are theoretically capable of it.




Yeah, like Colombia (which was not scared coaching, and we did have a good chance to win that IMO), Belgium, Portugal, Germany. When we beat Mexico in Mexico and then take a point from them in qualifying, both things we'd never done. All games he coached scared.


----------



## Ugmo

Gooch said:


> What you're asking for is to catch lightning in a bottle for every match. It's just not realistic, you need to ground your expectations more in reality. Those were anomalies and not something we should expect to be the norm.




No, I'm asking us to not thoroughly embarrass ourselves every time we face a dominant opponent because the coach is horrible at tactics and coaching scared to boot. That shouldn't be too much to ask, especially considering how much we're apparently willing to spend on a head coach. Get the **** rid of this guy and hire a coach who knows what he's doing. And while we're at it, hire a (separate) technical director who knows what he's doing. Unless someone takes pity on us and headhunts Klinsmann, we'll have seven years of stagnation in our program.


----------



## Gooch

Basement Cat said:


> Completely disagree. At leas t give yourself a ****ing shot.
> 
> Against Argentina our best bet was to sit back and then counter. Pose some semblance of a threat on the counter that their back line would have to respect, at least a little bit.
> 
> Instead we get:
> 
> 1) Wondo (who should not have been on the roster) and Dempsey up top. Playing our two slowest strikers in the entire pool. Yea, that'll be a huuuuge threat, as well as Zusi on one of the flanks
> 
> 2) Playing only 2 CMs against Argentina's 4-3-3??? Is that serious? Obviously Beckerman (who should not have been on the roster) and Bradley were going to be suffocated in the middle of the park.
> 
> Why not play Johnson out wide at LM, Nagbe behind Dempsey, and Zardes at RM? These are guys who would actually be able to combine with Dempsey on the counter and maybe muster a single shot. You saw how futile Wondo and Zusi looked. And Bradley had nobody to pick out for a long ball besides Zardes. It was embarrassing.




Hey, before the Copa started and Guzan fresh off an abysmal peformance at Aston Villa was announced as our starting GK I thought we were in for a horrible tournament. My expectations were very low and I ended up quite satisfied with how it ended up.


----------



## Live in the Now

Ugmo said:


> No they're not. That was the Spain team that went something like 30 games in a row without a defeat until they ran into us, and went on to win the World Cup the next year. That team was a juggernaut, and we beat them because Bradley is a better tactician than Klinsmann.




How many of those 30 games in a row were against decent teams? Records like that are seriously overblown. It's a lot harder for a team with lesser quality to beat the best player in the world when his whole team is in great form. They just swatted Chile away like they had no chance whatsoever and that was without Messi even playing.


----------



## Ugmo

Live in the Now said:


> Yeah, like Colombia (which was not scared coaching, and we did have a good chance to win that IMO), Belgium, Portugal, Germany. When we beat Mexico in Mexico and then take a point from them in qualifying, both things we'd never done. All games he coached scared.





Belgium? We got completely thrashed by Belgium and required a record-breaking performance by our goalkeeper to not lose by 6 or 7 goals.

I don't know if you've noticed, but Portugal always plays horribly in big tournaments. And we still managed to blow our lead against them.

Germany? What Germany game? They manhandled us like children in the only meaningful game we've played against Germany.

The point in Mexico was great, but it's not like Mexico has been "dominant" against us at any point in the modern era.

The rest of the games you mentioned appear to be friendlies. I don't give two turds about friendlies, win or lose.


----------



## cgf

Live in the Now said:


> The US gets blown apart when trying to play good football against teams much better than us, so I don't think so. I also think the way they play against comparable teams like Ecuador, Costa Rica, and Paraguay is perfectly fine.
> 
> The problem is that American players don't have the technical skill to play proper football against the best footballing nations and that's due to the development of our players.
> 
> Personally I don't hold NT managers in much regard to begin with. It's nowhere near as difficult a job as club football. The players are effectively handed to Jurgen with him having no input in their career tracks. Some of the players also refused to listen to his suggestions for their club careers. I'm no fan of JK and think we could have a better manager but I do wonder if we'd see an improvement in our results. Probably not.




Do you think the US is significantly less technically talented than Hungary or the Czech Republic? Cause both of those nations have much tidier passing play than does the USA, and that comes down heavily on coaching and the tactical organization of your build up. So while the technical deficiency of players like Zardes are obviously issues, they aren't the only issues.

Agreed about most NT managers; there's occasional exceptions where quality coaches enjoy the less intense workload, but most are Garbage Kimmy, _Garbage_.



Basement Cat said:


> Everyone and their grandmother knew at 7PM Tuesday night, when that lineup came out, we had absolutely 0 shot of winning that game.* I gave us maybe a 5-10% chance of advancing past Argentina before 7PM Tuesday*, but once I saw Klinsmann's lineup and clear lack of a game plan, it was over. The guy is clueless when it comes to tactics, just ask Lahm what he think of JK. Furthermore, throughout his entire tenure he has spoken out of both sides of his mouth. Claims to try to play proactive soccer, but rarely plays with a real CAM (and gets outshot on home soil by Haiti and Jamaica lmao). I realize that he isn't going anywhere at this stage. We are stuck with him until Russia.




That's cause you're a homer


----------



## Ugmo

Live in the Now said:


> How many of those 30 games in a row were against decent teams? Records like that are seriously overblown. It's a lot harder for a team with lesser quality to beat the best player in the world when his whole team is in great form. They just swatted Chile away like they had no chance whatsoever and that was without Messi even playing.




Hilarious how in order to cover for Klinsmann, you're downplaying the Spain team that won both Euro 2008 and WC 2010.


----------



## Basement Cat

Live in the Now said:


> Don't you think the US wanted to sit back and counter? That plan changes when our sorry goalkeeper doesn't come out to get a chipped through ball. It changes when Messi scores a worldie out of nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Which of the players in this squad do you think a team like Argentina has to respect? I seriously want to know. Is it the guy with goofy hair and the first touch of a brick? Old Clint Dempsey? Or is it our players that look like baristas and never played against world class competition in their club careers? A 17 year old bench player?
> 
> None of these suggestions would have changed the result of the game and in some cases made it worse.




Do I think that we wanted to sit back and counter? I don't know honestly. That lineup tells me nothing. It tells me that JK just stuck with his favorites instead of taking a risk and playing some kind of proactive soccer that he claims he wants to play.

This lineup, which I posted several times on this forum before the match, would have at least generated a shot on goal:

----------Dempsey
Johnson---------Zardes
------Nagbe---Zusi
----------Bradley
Besler-Brooks-Cameron-Yedlin

And make fun of Zardes all you want, he actually had a very good game against Argentina. He got several dangerous crosses in the box, tracked back a ton, and actually tried to take players on.


----------



## Gooch

Ugmo said:


> No, I'm asking us to not thoroughly embarrass ourselves every time we face a dominant opponent because the coach is horrible at tactics and coaching scared to boot. That shouldn't be too much to ask, especially considering how much we're apparently willing to spend on a head coach. Get the **** rid of this guy and hire a coach who knows what he's doing. And while we're at it, hire a (separate) technical director who knows what he's doing. Unless someone takes pity on us and headhunts Klinsmann, we'll have seven years of stagnation in our program.




We didnt embarrass ourselves. Many nations with better squads of players would desire our performances in tournaments. How do you feel Uruguay, Brazil, Mexico feel from their performance in the Copa? 

This country can do a whole lot worse and don't be surprised when that happens. Rumors seem strong recently that Southhampton want Klinnsman. Once our National team starts playing to the actual talent level of the squad instead of above it you'll be begging for someone like Klinnsman back even with his stupid tactics and roster decisions.


----------



## Basement Cat

Gooch said:


> Hey, before the Copa started and Guzan fresh off an abysmal peformance at Aston Villa was announced as our starting GK I thought we were in for a horrible tournament. My expectations were very low and I ended up quite satisfied with how it ended up.




Has nothing to do with my post.



cgf said:


> Do you think the US is significantly less technically talented than Hungary or the Czech Republic? Cause both of those nations have much tidier passing play than does the USA, and that comes down heavily on coaching and the tactical organization of your build up. So while the technical deficiency of players like Zardes are obviously issues, they aren't the only issues.
> 
> Agreed about most NT managers; there's occasional exceptions where quality coaches enjoy the less intense workload, but most are Garbage Kimmy, _Garbage_.
> 
> 
> 
> *That's cause you're a homer*




No, that was definitely a realistic expectation.


----------



## Basement Cat

Gooch said:


> We didnt embarrass ourselves. Many nations with better squads of players would desire our performances in tournaments. How do you feel Uruguay, Brazil, Mexico feel from their performance in the Copa?
> 
> *This country can do a whole lot worse and don't be surprised when that happens. Rumors seem strong recently that Southhampton want Klinnsman. Once our National team starts playing to the actual talent level of the squad instead of above it you'll be begging for someone like Klinnsman back even with his stupid tactics and roster decisions*.




This is gold 

We should feel so honored to have Klinsi as our manager. Never before has this team punched above its weight class. Give me a break


----------



## cgf

Ugmo said:


> We didn't have a single player that would have gotten into Spain's squad in 2009 and we beat them in a competitive game. We didn't have a single player that would have gotten into Brazil's squad the game after that, and still led them 2-0 at the half and almost beat them. I'm utterly tired of people excusing Klinsmann's ****** coaching by blaming all of our losses on the quality of our players.




When did you beat spain in a competitive match? 



Gooch said:


> I can agree with that, but can you agree that we certainly could see a lot worse? Right now we have a manager taking this team to results above their abilities, it can very easily go the other way around with another manager. You think England wouldnt like a NT manager that would get their squad to perform better than their talent?
> 
> You can talk to almost any national team fan and find huge complaints about how their manager does things. Look at how much complaining was done about Germany and their use of no FB's and a false 9 instead of a striker all throughout the 2014 WC. France's manager is routinely ripped for tinkering and barely sqeaking out wins, Conte's team selection was roundly criticized for lacking offensive threats before the Euro's. I see Spain fans completely hating on VDB and claiming their success was entirely in spite of him and not because of him. Belgium fans seem to want Wilmots to **** off as well, is there one national team manager that the fans almost resoundingly approve of?




Oh I'm not saying he deserves to be fired, just agreeing that there certainly is realistic cause for complaint...even if claiming he made these semis with a bunch of 30 year olds isn't one of them...

And I'm in full agreement about NT coaches being trash in general...although Jogi's stupidity has nothing to do with him not being attached to playing an antiquated 9; in fact it's when he does turn to an archaic player like Gomez that I rage most of all.


----------



## Gooch

Basement Cat said:


> Has nothing to do with my post.
> 
> 
> 
> No, that was definitely a realistic expectation.




My point was I was drastically shocked we got as far as we did with an awful GK like Guzan. I feel like the bulk of USA soccer fans expect 1980 Mens Hockey team peformances all the time every time because frankly that is about the talent disparity between our team and the teams we have to play against to win these tournaments.


----------



## Basement Cat

cgf said:


> When did you beat spain in a competitive match?




Confed Cup 2009.


----------



## Live in the Now

Ugmo said:


> Hilarious how in order to cover for Klinsmann, you're downplaying the Spain team that won both Euro 2008 and WC 2010.




I don't care about Klinsmann. They could get rid of him or not and I wouldn't care. I am simply speaking about how I feel about Argentina now compared to Spain *2009* (it's not 2008, or 2010). 

What I do care about is that US fans continue to think we should be better than we are while ignoring the reality of the situation. Most people around the world are impressed by our team spirit and our ability to advance in competitions despite everything that's wrong with our domestic league and player quality. We are massively up against it against quality teams because of these deficiencies. Some rationality is required. 

Also, we didn't "get thrashed" by Belgium. Would you say Italy got thrashed last week? Because that game was similar. And if you do think we got thrashed by Belgium, it's pretty interesting because that game alone should have showed the difference good players make. 



> Germany? What Germany game? They manhandled us like children in the only meaningful game we've played against Germany.




The game at the WC was not manhandling.


----------



## Basement Cat

Gooch said:


> My point was I was drastically shocked we got as far as we did with an awful GK like Guzan. *I feel like the bulk of USA soccer fans expect 1980 Mens Hockey team peformances all the time every time *because frankly that is about the talent disparity between our team and the teams we have to play against to win these tournaments.




Oh please stop with the hyperbole, dude. It's not making your argument any stronger.


----------



## Gooch

Basement Cat said:


> This is gold
> 
> We should feel so honored to have Klinsi as our manager. Never before has this team punched above its weight class. Give me a break




I laugh in similar fashion when I see people talking up this team like they should actually be able to compete with Argentina. People on here sound like the FS1 panel all picking USA to win over Argentina. It's homerism to delusional levels.


----------



## Ugmo

Gooch said:


> We didnt embarrass ourselves. Many nations with better squads of players would desire our performances in tournaments. How do you feel Uruguay, Brazil, Mexico feel from their performance in the Copa?




Yes we did. We didn't get a single shot on goal. That was total domination. I'm not blaming Klinsmann for not beating Argentina. I'm blaming Klinsmann for not putting our players in a position in which they had an opportunity to not completely embarrass themselves. That is 100 percent a coaching problem, and it happens every single time we face an opponent Klinsmann is scared of.



Gooch said:


> This country can do a whole lot worse and don't be surprised when that happens. Rumors seem strong recently that Southhampton want Klinnsman. Once our National team starts playing to the actual talent level of the squad instead of above it you'll be begging for someone like Klinnsman back even with his stupid tactics and roster decisions.




I will pay for Klinsmann's plane ticket myself if Southampton wants him. That would be the best thing to happen to our program since our World Cup run in 2002.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Live in the Now said:


> Yes, that is called catching them in the right moment. The Argentina of right now is far better than those teams, and a much worse matchup.




Disagree.

That 2009 Spain team came into the game with a 35-game unbeaten streak. They hadn't lost since November 15, 2006.

Doesn't totally change the story, but I just wanted to point out how impressive that win over Spain was.


----------



## Basement Cat

Gooch said:


> I laugh in similar fashion when I see people talking up this team like they should actually be able to compete with Argentina. People on here sound like the FS1 panel all picking USA to win over Argentina. It's homerism to delusional levels.




Nobody on this forum said that we should be able to consistently compete against Argentina.

And I can only speak for myself, but my frustration stems from the lineup and tactics (or lack thereof) that JK put out on Tuesday night.


----------



## Gooch

Ugmo said:


> Yes we did. We didn't get a single shot on goal. That was total domination. I'm not blaming Klinsmann for not beating Argentina. I'm blaming Klinsmann for not putting our players in a position in which they had an opportunity to not completely embarrass themselves. That is 100 percent a coaching problem, and it happens every single time we face an opponent Klinsmann is scared of.
> 
> 
> 
> I will pay for Klinsmann's plane ticket myself if Southampton wants him. That would be the best thing to happen to our program since our World Cup run in 2002.




Interact with some fans of other nations. By in large the sentiment I see are that most foreign fans are surprised at how well USA did in the Copa. You're too hard on the team and expectations are too high and unrealistic. That can be a good thing when it's deserved but there's nothing in USA's history or pedigree to suggest that we should be on equal footing with the likes of the south american powerhouses.


----------



## Gooch

Basement Cat said:


> Nobody on this forum said that we should be able to consistently compete against Argentina.
> 
> And I can only speak for myself, but my frustration stems from the lineup and tactics (or lack thereof) that JK put out on Tuesday night.




That lineup was screwed with the officiating from the Ecuador game though. And my point was that shuffling the chairs on the titanic wasnt going to change the result.


----------



## Basement Cat

Gooch said:


> That lineup was screwed with the officiating from the Ecuador game though. And my point was that shuffling the chairs on the titanic wasnt going to change the result.




Simple question:

With the remaining players on the roster eligible for the game on Tuesday, was that the best starting xi to put out and give us a chance to succeed?

*By succeed I simply mean somewhat compete. Like maybe, get a shot on target?


----------



## cgf

Basement Cat said:


> No, that was definitely a realistic expectation.




Ok. It wasn't in any way shape or form, but I won't stop anyone from telling themselves what they want to hear. In your shoes, I'd just be glad that the team wasn't siete a cero'd.



Basement Cat said:


> Confed Cup 2009.




Is the confed cup considered a competitive tourney in the Americas? Cause in germany it's viewed as a friendly played for the benefit the host nation, since they didn't have to play any qualifiers.


----------



## Gooch

East Coast Bias said:


> Disagree.
> 
> That 2009 Spain team came into the game with a 35-game unbeaten streak. They hadn't lost since November 15, 2006.
> 
> Doesn't totally change the story, but I just wanted to point out how impressive that win over Spain was.




That win certainly was impressive but, most big teams dont really treat the confederation cup as a big tournament. If we had managed to pull off a win vs this Argentina team in this tournament I would've considered it to be a bigger victory.


----------



## Basement Cat

cgf said:


> Ok. It wasn't in any way shape or form, but I won't stop anyone from telling themselves what they want to hear. In your shoes, I'd just be glad that the team wasn't siete a cero'd.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the confed cup considered a competitive tourney in the Americas? Cause in germany it's viewed as a friendly played for the benefit the host nation, since they didn't have to play any qualifiers.




Sorry, I have higher expectations than being jubilant about not losing 7-0. Thanks for patronizing us though.

And the CC is viewed as a dress rehearsal for the WC. A chance to play quality teams in the host nation of the tournament a year before the big show. So yes, it is looked at as a "serious" tournament.


----------



## Ugmo

Live in the Now said:


> I don't care about Klinsmann. They could get rid of him or not and I wouldn't care. I am simply speaking about how I feel about Argentina now compared to Spain *2009* (it's not 2008, or 2010).




What the.... so the Spain team that won 30 games in a row until they ran into us was a lesser team than the Spain team that sandwiched that streak with victories in the European Championships and the World Cup?? Dude, whatever you're smoking...



Live in the Now said:


> What I do care about is that US fans continue to think we should be better than we are while ignoring the reality of the situation. Most people around the world are impressed by our team spirit and our ability to advance in competitions despite everything that's wrong with our domestic league and player quality. We are massively up against it against quality teams because of these deficiencies. Some rationality is required.




Klinsmann was _specifically hired_ to make our team better. Instead we're arguably playing worse. We move from one lowlight to the next, with an occasional highlight in between to save Klinsmann's job. How he continues to get a pass for these shoddy performances and for _failing in his mission to elevate our program_ is completely baffling. To reiterate, he was specifically hired to elevate our program and is being paid a fortune for that endeavor. The fact that even our youth teams have been performing horribly shows you the complete failure of the Klinsmann hiring. He should have been gone long ago, yet we continue to muddle along and blame the players rather than the guy in charge. What other country would put up with this?



Live in the Now said:


> Also, we didn't "get thrashed" by Belgium. Would you say Italy got thrashed last week? Because that game was similar. And if you do think we got thrashed by Belgium, it's pretty interesting because that game alone should have showed the difference good players make.





Yes we did. They pummelled us with 38 shots (26 of them on target) and Howard (was forced to) set a saves record.




Live in the Now said:


> The game at the WC was not manhandling.




It was men against boys. And again, I don't blame Klinsmann for not beating Germany at the World Cup, I blame him for coaching scared and not even giving us a chance to surprise them.


----------



## cgf

Basement Cat said:


> Sorry, I have higher expectations than being jubilant about not losing 7-0. Thanks for patronizing us though.
> 
> And the CC is viewed as a dress rehearsal for the WC. A chance to play quality teams in the host nation of the tournament a year before the big show. So yes, it is looked at as a "serious" tournament.




I don't think you understand how well Argentina are playing, or how talent deficient the US is if you think it's patronizing that you didn't record a historic defeat. Maybe you're just so used to overachieving that you don't realize when you're overachieving? 

The Confed Cup is about as "serious" as pre-tournament friendlies. *shrug* At least to us, I'm not denying that maybe it's treated more seriously in the western hemisphere.


----------



## Live in the Now

cgf said:


> Do you think the US is significantly less technically talented than Hungary or the Czech Republic? Cause both of those nations have much tidier passing play than does the USA, and that comes down heavily on coaching and the tactical organization of your build up. So while the technical deficiency of players like Zardes are obviously issues, they aren't the only issues.
> 
> Agreed about most NT managers; there's occasional exceptions where quality coaches enjoy the less intense workload, but most are Garbage Kimmy, _Garbage_.




Sort of. I think the US is more gifted athletically, but we don't have very many players with footballing brain, two-footed ability, first touch, pinpoint passing, etc. I do think it's significant. 

I don't think we have many players accustomed to actually building up the play. When watching teams like the ones you mentioned, the thing is their players are more used to playing on top because they're developed to play for teams that generally dominate their domestic leagues. It's just a thing about the mindset, they're used to playing against teams who play behind the ball for their whole life. 

Looking at our back line alone, we do have Johnson, but he usually plays in midfield for BMG as you know and we don't have another decent left back, so he goes to left back. This should be sign #1 for some people that we have a serious problem with the players available, when our only player who plays for a CL team can't even play his best position.

Geoff Cameron plays for Stoke, and even though they play better football of late, say no more. DeAndre Yedlin played for a Fat Sam typical relegation battler team, so that's another one checked off. John Brooks is ok in this capacity I suppose, but wasn't very impressed with his passing in this tournament.

Right there is where the problems are, but these are our best defenders by some distance so there's not much that can be done about that. Midfield is much the same, lots of loose passing and hoofing.


----------



## Gooch

Basement Cat said:


> Simple question:
> 
> With the remaining players on the roster eligible for the game on Tuesday, was that the best starting xi to put out and give us a chance to succeed?
> 
> *By succeed I simply mean somewhat compete. Like maybe, get a shot on target?




I don't like Wondolowski so no, I don't think it was his best roster he couldve put out. But cmon man lets get grounded back in reality. EVERY national team manager faces the same criticisms even the vastly successful ones. There is nobody we're all going to agree with 100% of the time. It wouldn't of mattered if he had put out the best possible lineup, and that's my point. Whether we got a few shots on goal wouldnt change the fact we lost which we were going to regardless. Why not just have the attitude of it being a **** game but overall a great tournament performance? What can you do? We would've possibly been better off finishing second in our table in hopes of avoiding that Argentina team a little longer but then you had an also red hot Chile team to contend with. At least we lost to good teams and didnt have a Jamaica experience again.


----------



## Ugmo

Gooch said:


> *I laugh in similar fashion when I see people talking up this team like they should actually be able to compete with Argentina.* People on here sound like the FS1 panel all picking USA to win over Argentina. It's homerism to delusional levels.




Strawman. No one at any point said they should be able to "compete with" Argentina. We didn't even get a shot on goal. Expecting our team to not be completely embarrassed by Argentina due to poor coaching isn't too much to ask.


----------



## Basement Cat

cgf said:


> I don't think you understand how well Argentina are playing, or how talent deficient the US is if you think it's patronizing that you didn't record a historic defeat. Maybe you're just so used to overachieving that you don't realize you're overachieving?
> 
> The Confed Cup is about as "serious" as pre-tournament friendlies. *shrug* At least to us, as, again, this maybe different elsewhere.




That same Argentina just beat Venezuela 4-1. I should be ecstatic that we didn't lose 7-0??? At home no less?

Now I sit here and wait for your next post telling me that Venezuela is superior to the USMNT.


----------



## Live in the Now

East Coast Bias said:


> Disagree.
> 
> That 2009 Spain team came into the game with a 35-game unbeaten streak. They hadn't lost since November 15, 2006.
> 
> Doesn't totally change the story, but I just wanted to point out how impressive that win over Spain was.




That 2009 Spain team was missing Iniesta, Silva didn't play. Torres had a bad ankle for months. Albert Riera was in the lineup ffs. Their RM players were also in poor form after an abysmal finish to the season with Juande Ramos. 

Spain was a great team at that time but the US did also play them at a good time.


----------



## Ugmo

cgf said:


> The Confed Cup is about as "serious" as pre-tournament friendlies. *shrug* At least to us, I'm not denying that maybe it's treated more seriously in the western hemisphere.




Whatever you think of the Confederations Cup, Spain really wanted to win that game. IIRC they had tied a record for consecutive results and would have broken it if not for us. And they would have if Klinsmann had been our coach at the time, because he would have fielded a slow, scared lineup to match his own fear of them.


----------



## Basement Cat

Gooch said:


> I don't like Wondolowski so no, I don't think it was his best roster he couldve put out. But cmon man lets get grounded back in reality. EVERY national team manager faces the same criticisms even the vastly successful ones. There is nobody we're all going to agree with 100% of the time. It wouldn't of mattered if he had put out the best possible lineup, and that's my point. Whether we got a few shots on goal wouldnt change the fact we lost which we were going to regardless. Why not just have the attitude of it being a **** game but overall a great tournament performance? What can you do? We would've possibly been better off finishing second in our table in hopes of avoiding that Argentina team a little longer but then you had an also red hot Chile team to contend with. *At least we lost to good teams and didnt have a Jamaica experience again*.




That last statement I can agree with. 

I think we've gone back and forth about this particular debate enough. I think that we could have put out a better starting XI that would have at least gotten a _single shot_ on target. You think it wouldn't have mattered. Agree to disagree. I enjoy the discussion regardless.


----------



## cgf

Live in the Now said:


> Sort of. I think the US is more gifted athletically, but we don't have very many players with footballing brain, two-footed ability, first touch, pinpoint passing, etc. I do think it's significant.
> 
> I don't think we have many players accustomed to actually building up the play. When watching teams like the ones you mentioned, the thing is their players are more used to playing on top because they're developed to play for teams that generally dominate their domestic leagues. It's just a thing about the mindset, they're used to playing against teams who play behind the ball for their whole life.
> 
> Looking at our back line alone, we do have Johnson, but he usually plays in midfield for BMG as you know and we don't have another decent left back, so he goes to left back. This should be sign #1 for some people that we have a serious problem with the players available, when our only player who plays for a CL team can't even play his best position.
> 
> Geoff Cameron plays for Stoke, and even though they play better football of late, say no more. DeAndre Yedlin played for a Fat Sam typical relegation battler team, so that's another one checked off. John Brooks is ok in this capacity I suppose, but wasn't very impressed with his passing in this tournament.
> 
> Right there is where the problems are, but these are our best defenders by some distance so there's not much that can be done about that. Midfield is much the same, lots of loose passing and hoofing.




That's a good point that I hadn't really put much thought into. I still think that if the coach really instituted a highly structured build up game that you could at least become tidy like those nations; but that is a fair point about your players being more accustomed to sitting back & playing on the break while lacking the experience of holding onto the ball and having to actually build something with it.

PS Johnson was used primarily as a defensive winger by Favre, but he moved around a lot more after Schubert took over; slotting in as a wing back, box to box midfielder, defensive winger and fullback this season. In fact Wendt's excellent development these past two seasons is probably the single biggest reason why Fabian doesn't play LB often for them.

So I don't think that specific example works; though I take your point on the whole, especially since even your attackers like Wood and Zardes have the first touch of stampeding elephants. Hopefully Pulisic, Zelalem, Hyndman and Miazga change this for you in the next WCQ cycle; though by then Klinsi will have no excuse not to bring a lot more structure into your build up play.


----------



## Gooch

Basement Cat said:


> That last statement I can agree with.
> 
> I think we've gone back and forth about this particular debate enough. I think that we could have put out a better starting XI that would have at least gotten a _single shot_ on target. You think it wouldn't have mattered. Agree to disagree. I enjoy the discussion regardless.




It's nothing personal, I want US soccer to be dominant I just see it as a much longer term project.


----------



## Gooch

cgf said:


> That's a good point that I hadn't really put much thought into. I still think that if the coach really instituted a highly structured build up game that you could at least become tidy like those nations; but that is a fair point about your players being more accustomed to sitting back & playing on the break while lacking the experience of holding onto the ball and having to actually build something with it.
> 
> PS Johnson was used primarily as a defensive winger by Favre, but he moved around a lot more after Schubert took over; slotting in as a wing back, box to box midfielder, defensive winger and fullback this season. In fact Wendt's excellent development these past two seasons is probably the single biggest reason why Fabian doesn't play LB often for them.
> 
> So I don't think that specific example works; though I take your point on the whole, especially since even your attackers like Wood and *Zardes have the first touch of stampeding elephants*. Hopefully Pulisic, Zelalem, Hyndman and Miazga change this for you in the next WCQ cycle; though by then Klinsi will have no excuse not to bring a lot more structure into your build up play.





Edit: I can never figure out how to embed YT vids...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4KOyhoPIvY


----------



## cgf

Basement Cat said:


> That same Argentina just beat Venezuela 4-1. I should be ecstatic that we didn't lose 7-0??? At home no less?
> 
> Now I sit here and wait for your next post telling me that Venezuela is superior to the USMNT.




Holy hyperbole batman. Being glad that you didn't suffer a historic defeat doesn't mean celebrating or being ecstatic about a blowout. It does however entail accepting the reality that Argentina was gunna beat you by 3+ goals, and if they had been more lethal they could've gotten the score line much closer to what Chile did to Mexico, or we did to Brazil.



Ugmo said:


> Whatever you think of the Confederations Cup, Spain really wanted to win that game. IIRC they had tied a record for consecutive results and would have broken it if not for us. And they would have if Klinsmann had been our coach at the time, because he would have fielded a slow, scared lineup to match his own fear of them.




I didn't follow it so I can't speak to this. Was just confused by the confed cup being referred to as a competitive match.


----------



## Basement Cat

cgf said:


> Holy hyperbole batman. Being glad that you didn't suffer a historic defeat doesn't mean celebrating or being ecstatic about a blowout. It does however entail accepting the reality that Argentina was gunna beat you by 3+ goals, and if they had been more lethal they could've gotten the score line much closer to what Chile did to Mexico, or we did to Brazil.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't follow it so I can't speak to this. Was just confused by the confed cup being referred to as a competitive match.




"In your shoes, I'd just be glad that the team wasn't siete a cero'd."

That's your quote. Sure sounds like we should be jubilant about not getting blown out more than we did get blown out by. 

Why the hell should we be?


----------



## Ugmo

Gooch said:


> Interact with some fans of other nations. By in large the sentiment I see are that most foreign fans are surprised at how well USA did in the Copa. You're too hard on the team and expectations are too high and unrealistic. That can be a good thing when it's deserved but there's nothing in USA's history or pedigree to suggest that we should be on equal footing with the likes of the south american powerhouses.




I "interact with some fans of other nations" on a daily basis. I live in Europe. People in other countries don't follow the USMNT. Many of them are under the impression that we never even played soccer before Klinsmann took over.


----------



## Ugmo

Gooch said:


> It's nothing personal, I want US soccer to be dominant I just see it as a much longer term project.




Everyone understands it's a long-term project. The sooner Klinsmann is fired, the sooner we can get started on it.


----------



## cgf

Basement Cat said:


> "In your shoes, I'd just be glad that the team wasn't siete a cero'd."
> 
> That's your quote. Sure sounds like we should be jubilant about not getting blown out more than we did get blown out by.
> 
> Why the hell should we be?




I'd just be glad that something even more horrible didn't happen =/= celebrate the bad thing that did happen.

Or am I mistaken here? English is a very stupid language...which is to be expected when one starts mixing a nice germanic tongue with the silliness of french


----------



## Live in the Now

Ugmo said:


> What the.... so the Spain team that won 30 games in a row until they ran into us was a lesser team than the Spain team that sandwiched that streak with victories in the European Championships and the World Cup?? Dude, whatever you're smoking...




What's funny is that anyone can look at the Confederations Cup history and see that success in the Confed Cup does not equal to WC success. Why? Because the Confed Cup is a chance for the bigger nations to experiment with their lineups against lesser quality teams (like ours) who play hard against those lineups no matter what.



> Klinsmann was _specifically hired_ to make our team better. Instead we're arguably playing worse. We move from one lowlight to the next, with an occasional highlight in between to save Klinsmann's job. How he continues to get a pass for these shoddy performances and for _failing in his mission to elevate our program_ is completely baffling. To reiterate, he was specifically hired to elevate our program and is being paid a fortune for that endeavor. The fact that even our youth teams have been performing horribly shows you the complete failure of the Klinsmann hiring. He should have been gone long ago, yet we continue to muddle along and blame the players rather than the guy in charge. *What other country would put up with this?*




A lot. His mission wasn't to elevate our program, it was to get better results. Whether or not we have is arguable. While everyone is reminiscing about Bob Bradley, we should point out that in his last Gold Cup we got completely beat the **** down and embarrassed by our biggest rivals. We should also point out that we got embarrassed in Copa America.

We should also point out that Bob Bradley's US team had better players at a better point of their careers. LD, Dempsey, Bradley, Altidore were all in good form. Then Bob went out and played Ricardo Clark and Robbie Findley. Sounds similar to Klinsmann, right? We barely got through our group by getting a miracle result against a horrible team and then we should have advanced against Ghana. I remember Bob fielding such an amateur team that he took a player off after 31 minutes. 



> Yes we did. They pummelled us with 38 shots (26 of them on target) and Howard (was forced to) set a saves record.




Your point? We still had a better chance of getting a good result than we did in 2010 knockout stages. Also...






The difference in player quality here. Enormous again. What is an NT coach to do about that? Again, I don't care if we get rid of Klinsmann or not. But we will have these same problems and people will be complaining about them again.


----------



## Ugmo

Getting thrashed 7-0 would definitely have been worse, because Klinsmann's job is secure no matter what happens and that would have been an embarrassment of historic proportions without even the silver lining of his firing.


----------



## Basement Cat

cgf said:


> I'd just be glad that something even more horrible didn't happen =/= celebrate the bad thing that did happen.
> 
> Or am I mistaken here? English is a very stupid language...which is to be expected when one starts mixing a nice germanic tongue with the silliness of french




You're right, stupid argument. Let's move along.


----------



## cgf

Ugmo said:


> Getting thrashed 7-0 would definitely have been worse, because Klinsmann's job is secure no matter what happens and that would have been an embarrassment of historic proportions without even the silver lining of his firing.




Right, and that sort of a historic thrashing was likelier than you guys winning; so I didn't see how this match is any sort of cause for outrage. It was rough, but not nearly as rough as it could've been; and ultimately was just the result of you guys overachieving enough to run into a buzzsaw that you were just utterly outclassed by. It happens when teams get further than they "should" on talent.


----------



## Live in the Now

The result also probably would have been better if Wood and Jones had been able to play, but in the case of Jones that goes back to what I said a few days ago about having to rely on old players.


----------



## Gooch

Ugmo said:


> I "interact with some fans of other nations" on a daily basis. I live in Europe. People in other countries don't follow the USMNT. Many of them are under the impression that we never even played soccer before Klinsmann took over.




Well, I assumed your flag was just flavor and not where you actually lived. So tell me how do the folks in Austria feel about their national team's performance? You want to talk about under performing, having the players they do and failing to get out of groups in what shouldve been a somewhat easy group.


----------



## Basement Cat

cgf said:


> Right, and that sort of a historic thrashing was likelier than you guys winning; so I didn't see how this match is any sort of cause for outrage. It was rough, but not nearly as rough as it could've been; and ultimately was just the result of you guys overachieving enough to run into a buzzsaw.




The "outrage" is because we put out a lineup that had zero chance of putting up any sort of fight. Whether or not you agree that any other lineup we could have put out would do any better (you obviously don't), that was probably the worst lineup we could have trotted out given the available players. Quite the time to make that mistake.


----------



## cgf

Live in the Now said:


> The result also probably would have been better if Wood and Jones had been able to play, but in the case of Jones that goes back to what I said a few days ago about having to rely on old players.




True. It really showed how poor the alternatives to Jones are until your kids develop. Don't think Bobby would've effected the result much, but he certainly would've helped put some pressure on that argentinian backline; as that clumsy ******* has an endless motor and a hockey-player's understanding of physicality.


----------



## Live in the Now

cgf said:


> True. It really showed how poor the alternatives to Jones are until your kids develop. Don't think Bobby would've effected the result much, but he certainly would've helped put some pressure on that argentinian backline; as that clumsy ******* has an endless motor and a hockey-player's understanding of physicality.




Even though he's clumsy he also knows how to run with the ball, and with him and Jones out I count a 17 year old, Yedlin, Johnson and Zardes as the only other two able to do so. Nobody in the center could put any pressure on Banega and make him have to run, which is the start to beating Argentina imo. It was an extremely upsetting game and I understand the frustration, but time is on our side and we'll get better.


----------



## cgf

Basement Cat said:


> The "outrage" is because we put out a lineup that had zero chance of putting up any sort of fight. Whether or not you agree that any other lineup we could have put out would do any better (you obviously don't), that was probably the worst lineup we could have trotted out given the available players. Quite the time to make that mistake.




You can't just whether or not something that's so fundamental to the question at hand. If no other lineup gave you a chance of victory; then sending out your backups and the guys just on the cusp of the squad is by no means an uncommon or irrational thing to do when you're going out of a tourney...it's usually done to reward players for their good service if they're vets or give them a taste of what is hopefully to come if they're kids. As far as I understand you had f***-all for options once Jones was out for this match...while Wondolowski seems to be your podolski, who probably has similarly incriminating pictures of Klinsi to the ones Poldi has of Loew.


----------



## Ugmo

Live in the Now said:


> What's funny is that anyone can look at the Confederations Cup history and see that success in the Confed Cup does not equal to WC success. Why? Because the Confed Cup is a chance for the bigger nations to experiment with their lineups against lesser quality teams (like ours) who play hard against those lineups no matter what.




Again, completely hilarious how you're dismissing that Spain team in order to excuse Klinsman's shitty coaching. Spain was the dominant team in the world for several years. They ran into us with a 30-game unbeaten streak behind them and lost. Because Bradley didn't coach scared against overwhelming favorites the way Klinsmann does.



Live in the Now said:


> *A lot. His mission wasn't to elevate our program, it was to get better results.* Whether or not we have is arguable. While everyone is reminiscing about Bob Bradley, we should point out that in his last Gold Cup we got completely beat the **** down and embarrassed by our biggest rivals. We should also point out that we got embarrassed in Copa America.




Absolutely incorrect. Klinsmann was given the keys to the castle. He was given a massive salary and control over the entire US development program. His mission was to elevate the program and put us on a path toward the world's best. You're acting like Sunil only hired him so we'd beat Mexico more regularly or something.

Bob Bradley sent a glorified under-21 team to Copa America because he'd just won the Gold Cup with the senior team. I hope you're not seriously trying to compare that to the historical magnitude of hosting the tournament on our own turf in 2016.



Live in the Now said:


> We should also point out that Bob Bradley's US team had better players at a better point of their careers. LD, Dempsey, Bradley, Altidore were all in good form. Then Bob went out and played Ricardo Clark and Robbie Findley. Sounds similar to Klinsmann, right? We barely got through our group by getting a miracle result against a horrible team and then we should have advanced against Ghana. I remember Bob fielding such an amateur team that he took a player off after 31 minutes.




Klinsmann has a far, far deeper player pool than Bradley ever had. And Bradley mostly put his players in a position to succeed. With Klinsmann coaching those teams they would have sucked, and everyone would have blamed the players like they're doing right now.





Live in the Now said:


> Your point? We still had a better chance of getting a good result than we did in 2010 knockout stages. Also...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The difference in player quality here. Enormous again. What is an NT coach to do about that? Again, I don't care if we get rid of Klinsmann or not. But we will have these same problems and people will be complaining about them again.





No we didn't. We could have beaten Ghana in regular time with a bit of luck. Against Belgium the only luck was that we didn't lose 7-0 in 90 minutes.

I absolutely disagree that "we'll have the same problems." We'll have some of the same problems and one massive problem solved: we'll have gotten rid of a sub-par charlatan of a coach.


----------



## Ugmo

cgf said:


> Right, and that sort of a historic thrashing was likelier than you guys winning; *so I didn't see how this match is any sort of cause for outrage*. It was rough, but not nearly as rough as it could've been; and ultimately was just the result of you guys overachieving enough to run into a buzzsaw that you were just utterly outclassed by. It happens when teams get further than they "should" on talent.




I figured it was abundantly clear from my posts that it's not just because of this match that I can't stand the guy and would like to see him fired.


----------



## Basement Cat

cgf said:


> You can't just whether or not something that's so fundamental to the question at hand. If no other lineup gave you a chance of victory; then sending out your backups and the guys just on the cusp of the squad is by no means an uncommon or irrational thing to do when you're going out of a tourney...it's usually done to reward players for their good service if they're vets or give them a taste of what is hopefully to come if they're kids. As far as I understand you had f***-all for options once Jones was out for this match...while Wondolowski seems to be your podolski, who probably has similarly incriminating pictures of Klinsi to the ones Poldi has of Loew.




Uhm no, we had much better options than Wondo and Beckerman than to just say "**** it" and trot them out there to get pummeled. 

I get that you don't really know our player pool or respect it, but Beckerman is so washed at this point and Wondo has just never cut it at this level. So to suggest that we could not have started some better options, like Nagbe at CM instead of Beckerman, and Besler in for Wondo (pushing up Johnson), then I don't get what we're talking about here.


----------



## Ugmo

Basement Cat said:


> I get that you don't really know our player pool or respect it, but Beckerman is so washed at this point and Wondo has just never cut it at this level. So to suggest that we could not have started some better options, like Nagbe at CM instead of Beckerman, and Besler in for Wondo (pushing up Johnson), then I don't get what we're talking about here.




This. Those guys were washed up already this time last year when they were stinking up the Gold Cup. And here they were again a year later facing even stronger competition.

Regardless of whether one thinks Klinsmann is a good coach or not, once a coach gets too attached to the same old past-their-prime players, it's time for a change.


----------



## Brock Anton

Live in the Now said:


> A lot. His mission wasn't to elevate our program, it was to get better results. Whether or not we have is arguable. While everyone is reminiscing about Bob Bradley, we should point out that in his last Gold Cup we got completely beat the **** down and embarrassed by our biggest rivals. We should also point out that we got embarrassed in Copa America.




No. He was brought in to bring us to the next level and play "proactive" soccer. It's all in his introductory press conference. 

At least we were competitive in the 2011 Gold Cup final (we were fine until Dolo got injured and in came Bornstein), unlike the CONCACAF Cup last October, he also sent a B team to the 2007 Copa, because of the '07 Gold Cup, so not the best example. 



> We should also point out that Bob Bradley's US team had better players at a better point of their careers. LD, Dempsey, Bradley, Altidore were all in good form. Then Bob went out and played Ricardo Clark and Robbie Findley. Sounds similar to Klinsmann, right? We barely got through our group by getting a miracle result against a horrible team and then we should have advanced against Ghana. I remember Bob fielding such an amateur team that he took a player off after 31 minutes.




Nonsense. The only advantage you can say that Bradley had was a peak Donovan, that's it. At that time, Jozy was on his European loan adventure, MB was bring constantly criticized for being played due to nepotism and Dempsey, while playing well, was mainly played out wide by Bradley anyways. Jurgen has a far deeper player pool, a vastly improved MLS and more kids at European academies than any coach prior. 

Yeah, he liked Clark, Bornstein etc. too much, but not like we had much else at that point. Who was competing with them? Kljestan? Heath Pearce? Remember that Jones had committed to the U.S. program already, but was injured for the 2010 WC, so he was out of the picture. If Jones is fit, odds are that Clark is the odd man out in South Africa, or at least he isn't on the pitch against Ghana. Findley was only brought in because of Charlie Davies' accident. If that never happens, Findley is never in South Africa, he was only there because he thought that another pacey forward w/Jozy would net the same results as the Jozy-Davies pairing did ... it didn't. 

The Donovan 'miracle' got us through but again, we also had a goal wrongly disallowed against both Slovenia and Algeria, so we very much deserved to go through.


----------



## Live in the Now

Ugmo said:


> Again, completely hilarious how you're dismissing that Spain team in order to excuse Klinsman's shitty coaching. Spain was the dominant team in the world for several years. They ran into us with a 30-game unbeaten streak behind them and lost. Because Bradley didn't coach scared against overwhelming favorites the way Klinsmann does.




It's not in order to excuse Klinsmann's bad coaching. It's called being rational and looking at things objectively. They didn't play all of their best players and the way they approached the tournament was much different than ours. To be honest I'm not sure how much you know about players and team play given that you continue to repeat yourself. It should also be pointed out that Spain's tiki-taka plays better into the hands of the US because the forward thrust and bursts of speed Argentina uses are more difficult for our players to deal with. The US is usually very organized against teams that dominate possession and try to move our formation around to break it down, like in the Ecuador and Belgium games in 2016 and 2014, or England in 2010. 



> Absolutely incorrect. Klinsmann was given the keys to the castle. He was given a massive salary and *control over the entire US development program. His mission was to elevate the program and put us on a path toward the world's best.* You're acting like Sunil only hired him so we'd beat Mexico more regularly or something.




To be honest, if you actually believe this stuff instead of treating it like PR, I don't know where else this conversation can possibly be headed.



> Bob Bradley sent a glorified under-21 team to Copa America because he'd just won the Gold Cup with the senior team. I hope you're not seriously trying to compare that to the historical magnitude of hosting the tournament on our own turf in 2016.




Yeah, and we made the semifinals. 



> Klinsmann has a far, far deeper player pool than Bradley ever had. And Bradley mostly put his players in a position to succeed. With Klinsmann coaching those teams they would have sucked, and everyone would have blamed the players like they're doing right now.




Deeper is not better. Brazil has an insanely deep player pool. How does that work for them?



> No we didn't. We could have beaten Ghana in regular time with a bit of luck. Against Belgium the only luck was that we didn't lose 7-0 in 90 minutes.
> 
> I absolutely disagree that "we'll have the same problems." We'll have some of the same problems and one massive problem solved: we'll have gotten rid of a sub-par charlatan of a coach.




A bit of luck like playing somebody who didn't have to be taken off for being garbage after 30 minutes?

That's fair. But the results will be exactly the same.


----------



## Basement Cat

Brock Anton said:


> No. He was brought in to bring us to the next level and play "proactive" soccer. It's all in his introductory press conference.
> 
> At least we were competitive in the 2011 Gold Cup final (we were fine until Dolo got injured and in came Bornstein), unlike the CONCACAF Cup last October, he also sent a B team to the 2007 Copa, because of the '07 Gold Cup, so not the best example.
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense. The only advantage you can say that Bradley had was a peak Donovan, that's it. At that time, Jozy was on his European loan adventure, MB was bring constantly criticized for being played due to nepotism and Dempsey, while playing well, was mainly played out wide by Bradley anyways. Jurgen has a far deeper player pool, a vastly improved MLS and more kids at European academies than any coach prior.
> 
> *Yeah, he liked Clark, Bornstein etc. too much, but not like we had much else at that point. Who was competing with them? Kljestan? Heath Pearce? Remember that Jones had committed to the U.S. program already, but was injured for the 2010 WC, so he was out of the picture. If Jones is fit, odds are that Clark is the odd man out in South Africa, or at least he isn't on the pitch against Ghana. Findley was only brought in because of Charlie Davies' accident. If that never happens, Findley is never in South Africa, he was only there because he thought that another pacey forward w/Jozy would net the same results as the Jozy-Davies pairing did ... it didn't.
> *
> The Donovan 'miracle' got us through but again, we also had a goal wrongly disallowed against both Slovenia and Algeria, so we very much deserved to go through.




Do people not understand that a guy like Alfredo Morales would be a locked in starter (or damn near that) on the Bob Bradley era teams? He is not even in our top 40 at this stage. The pool is much deeper nowadays.


----------



## Ugmo

I don't know much about team play because I'm repeating myself? Haha. You're the guy who's claiming we gave Klinsmann unprecedented control of the entire program in order to get slightly better results, and then try to condescend to me about my knowledge of the game. And it's me who doesn't understand what I'm talking about? Get off your high horse.


----------



## Live in the Now

Brock Anton said:


> No. He was brought in to bring us to the next level and play "proactive" soccer. It's all in his introductory press conference.
> 
> At least we were competitive in the 2011 Gold Cup final (we were fine until Dolo got injured and in came Bornstein), unlike the CONCACAF Cup last October, he also sent a B team to the 2007 Copa, because of the '07 Gold Cup, so not the best example.




It took Mexico scoring in extra time to lose that Concacaf Cup game. 




> Nonsense. The only advantage you can say that Bradley had was a peak Donovan, that's it. At that time, Jozy was on his European loan adventure, MB was bring constantly criticized for being played due to nepotism and Dempsey, while playing well, was mainly played out wide by Bradley anyways. Jurgen has a far deeper player pool, a vastly improved MLS and more kids at European academies than any coach prior.




That's a pretty gigantic advantage, and Dempsey was a whole lot better then than now. So was MB



> Yeah, he liked Clark, Bornstein etc. too much, but not like we had much else at that point. Who was competing with them? Kljestan? Heath Pearce? Remember that Jones had committed to the U.S. program already, but was injured for the 2010 WC, so he was out of the picture. If Jones is fit, odds are that Clark is the odd man out in South Africa, or at least he isn't on the pitch against Ghana. Findley was only brought in because of Charlie Davies' accident. If that never happens, Findley is never in South Africa, he was only there because he thought that another pacey forward w/Jozy would net the same results as the Jozy-Davies pairing did ... it didn't.
> 
> The Donovan 'miracle' got us through but again, we also had a goal wrongly disallowed against both Slovenia and Algeria, so we very much deserved to go through.




Yet none of that stuff prevents anyone from criticizing Klinsmann because we got destroyed with Wood and Jones out in this tournament, or Jozy out in the 2014 WC. That's interesting.


----------



## Live in the Now

Ugmo said:


> I don't know much about team play because I'm repeating myself? Haha. You're the guy who's claiming we gave Klinsmann unprecedented control of the entire program in order to get slightly better results, and then try to condescend to me about my knowledge of the game. And it's me who doesn't understand what I'm talking about? Get off your high horse.




When you still don't talk about it...

NT managers do not have the kind of power required to "control the entire program". The US program does not develop players. Unprecedented control is a PR exercise.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Brock Anton said:


> No. He was brought in to bring us to the next level and play "proactive" soccer. It's all in his introductory press conference.
> 
> At least we were competitive in the 2011 Gold Cup final (we were fine until Dolo got injured and in came Bornstein), unlike the CONCACAF Cup last October, he also sent a B team to the 2007 Copa, because of the '07 Gold Cup, so not the best example.
> 
> 
> *
> Nonsense. The only advantage you can say that Bradley had was a peak Donovan, that's it. *At that time, Jozy was on his European loan adventure, MB was bring constantly criticized for being played due to nepotism and Dempsey, while playing well, was mainly played out wide by Bradley anyways. Jurgen has a far deeper player pool, a vastly improved MLS and more kids at European academies than any coach prior.
> 
> Yeah, he liked Clark, Bornstein etc. too much, but not like we had much else at that point. Who was competing with them? Kljestan? Heath Pearce? Remember that Jones had committed to the U.S. program already, but was injured for the 2010 WC, so he was out of the picture. If Jones is fit, odds are that Clark is the odd man out in South Africa, or at least he isn't on the pitch against Ghana. Findley was only brought in because of Charlie Davies' accident. If that never happens, Findley is never in South Africa, he was only there because he thought that another pacey forward w/Jozy would net the same results as the Jozy-Davies pairing did ... it didn't.
> 
> The Donovan 'miracle' got us through but again, we also had a goal wrongly disallowed against both Slovenia and Algeria, so we very much deserved to go through.






Pfffff peak Donovan.

Klinnsman had peak Julien Green.


----------



## Brock Anton

Live in the Now said:


> It took Mexico scoring in extra time to lose that Concacaf Cup game.




We were played off the pitch, so much so that Klinsmann was saving a sub so he could bring in Nick Rimando for penalties. There was no chance of winning that game before PK's and he knew it. 



> That's a pretty gigantic advantage, and Dempsey was a whole lot better then than now. So was MB




Dempsey? I disagree. He didn't really breakout as a really reliable goal scorer until 2010-11. Bradley is arguable, but peak Bradley IMO was when he was at Chievo and his first year at Roma ... both under Klinsmann. 



> Yet none of that stuff prevents anyone from criticizing Klinsmann because we got destroyed with Wood and Jones out in this tournament, or Jozy out in the 2014 WC. That's interesting.




Because unlike Bradley, Klinsmann actually had better options, and he left them at home. In no, way, shape or form should Wondo have been in the squad over Morris (hell, even Finlay and Kiesewetter would have been a better options). Wondo can't do anything but play up top, Morris would have slotted in for Wood perfectly as they play similar games and are versatile. We wouldn't have had to completely change our gameplan with Wood being suspended had Morris been there. Then he trotted out a formation that in no way helped Beckerman succeed. Everyone knows that Beckerman doesn't have the legs to cover the ground necessary in a 4-4-2, especially against a team with the quality of Argentina. It was a disaster waiting to happen. Again, that goes back to bringing in Wondo, his lack of versatility changed everything. I like Beckerman, but he's past it, and you could make the argument that bringing him (or Kitchen) over Danny Williams was a mistake as well. Williams would have been as close to a like-for-like replacement for Jones as we have.

It was also his fault in Brazil for not bringing a true backup for Jozy. He had Eddie Johnson and Terrence Boyd who could/would have filled that role ... but again, we got Wondo.


----------



## cgf

Basement Cat said:


> Uhm no, we had much better options than Wondo and Beckerman than to just say "**** it" and trot them out there to get pummeled.
> 
> I get that you don't really know our player pool or respect it, but Beckerman is so washed at this point and Wondo has just never cut it at this level. So to suggest that we could not have started some better options, like Nagbe at CM instead of Beckerman, and Besler in for Wondo (pushing up Johnson), then I don't get what we're talking about here.




I figured my comparison to poldi illustrated my low opinion of Wondo, but I don't think Nagbe would do very well as a CM from what I've seen of him with your NT...as I don't follow the MLS. Playing him over Wondo in the attacking line I can agree with, but looking at the team you took to the Copa; sticking Fabian Johnson at CM was your best option with Jones out. And Fabian has only played there for BMG as part of a midfield trio, which would've probably necessitated Beckerman's inclusion as well.


----------



## Basement Cat

cgf said:


> I figured my comparison to poldi illustrated my low opinion of Wondo, *but I don't think Nagbe would do very well as a CM from what I've seen of him with your NT...as I don't follow the MLS.* Playing him over Wondo in the attacking line I can agree with, but looking at the team you took to the Copa; sticking Fabian Johnson at CM was your best option with Jones out. And Fabian has only played there for BMG as part of a midfield trio, which would've probably necessitated Beckerman's inclusion as well.




The man has barely gotten a shot with our national team. How can you possibly come to this conclusion? And in the minimal time he has gotten minutes? He's scored a goal and has by far the highest passing completion percentage.

Truly a bizarre conclusion.


----------



## Ugmo

Live in the Now said:


> When you still don't talk about it...
> 
> NT managers do not have the kind of power required to "control the entire program". The US program does not develop players. Unprecedented control is a PR exercise.




It's hilarious that you think Klinsmann is being paid four times as much as Bradley to make an incremental improvement in our play (which he hasn't even achieved).


----------



## Brock Anton

cgf said:


> I figured my comparison to poldi illustrated my low opinion of Wondo, but I don't think Nagbe would do very well as a CM from what I've seen of him with your NT...as I don't follow the MLS. Playing him over Wondo in the attacking line I can agree with, but looking at the team you took to the Copa; sticking Fabian Johnson at CM was your best option with Jones out. And Fabian has only played there for BMG as part of a midfield trio, which would've probably necessitated Beckerman's inclusion as well.




Nagbe was great for Portland as a CM last season in a 4-3-3 and it's arguable that the switch in formation by Porter to put Nagbe centrally was the reason why they won MLS Cup. Only thing was, he had a great DM in Diego Chara behind him who's arguably the best all around DM in MLS. So, who knows if he'd still be as effective there for 90 minutes without Chara behind him. I'd like to think he would be, we just need to see him get the opportunity.


----------



## cgf

Basement Cat said:


> The man has barely gotten a shot with our national team. How can you possibly come to this conclusion? And in the minimal time he has gotten minutes? He's scored a goal and has by far the highest passing completion percentage.
> 
> Truly a bizarre conclusion.




Because he looks like an attacker you want running into space, not someone controlling the possession through traffic in the middle of the pitch of a game in which you'll be playing against the ball 95% of the time. As for the goal he scored, wasn't that playing off the wing? Not that it would be anything but bizarre to use to argue for his inclusion at the 8, either way; since goals are very far down the list of priorities for that position, but still. I'm pretty sure that goal came with him playing further up the pitch and out wide.



Brock Anton said:


> Nagbe was great for Portland as a CM last season in a 4-3-3 and it's arguable that the switch in formation by Porter to put Nagbe centrally was the reason why they won MLS Cup. Only thing was, he had a great DM in Diego Chara behind him who's arguably the best all around DM in MLS. So, who knows if he'd still be as effective there for 90 minutes without Chara behind him. I'd like to think he would be, we just need to see him get the opportunity.




I can see that, was the other CM a more defensively oriented box to boxer with Nagbe in a more free role to create? In that role I can see him having success in the MLS. But that's a very different job than partnering Bradley in a double-6 for the NT against this Argentina.


----------



## Basement Cat

cgf said:


> Because he looks like an attacker you want running into space, not someone controlling the possession through traffic in the middle of the pitch of a game in which you'll be playing against the ball 95% of the time. As for the goal he scored, wasn't that playing off the wing? Not that it would be anything but bizarre to use to argue for his inclusion at the 8, either way; since goals are very far down the list of priorities for that position, but still. I'm pretty sure that goal came with him playing further up the pitch and out wide.
> 
> 
> 
> I can see that, was the other CM a more defensively oriented box to boxer with Nagbe in a more free role to create? In that role I can see him having success in the MLS. But that's a very different job than partnering Bradley in a double-6 for the NT.




His best role is as an 8. For Portland, when they try to play him on the wing, he is a mixed bag. When they moved him to the 8, with a #10 in front of him and a #6 behind him, they won the MLS Cup. For club and country that is by far his best position imo. When he came on against Ecuador it was not on the wing. Unfortunately, the USMNT does not have a CAM as good as Diego Valeri, so I would play Nagbe in a system where there is a dedicated 6 (Bradley) and another box to box guy next to Nagbe (Jones), if we had a must win game tomorrow.


----------



## Brock Anton

cgf said:


> I can see that, was the other CM a more defensively oriented box to boxer with Nagbe in a more free role to create? In that role I can see him having success in the MLS. But that's a very different job than partnering Bradley in a double-6 for the NT against Argentina.




The other midfielder was Diego Valeri, pretty much a pure No. 10 (a very good one at that). Nagbe was playing the more box to box role, but with Chara's ability to cover ground, he wasn't really needed that much defensively. I agree with the second part, He wouldn't be effective in a flat 4-4-2 against anyone really, let alone Argentina. Especially next to a guy like Bradley. He either needs to be a #8 in a 4-3-3 or a #10 in a 4-3-2-1.


----------



## Live in the Now

Ugmo said:


> It's hilarious that you think Klinsmann is being paid four times as much as Bradley to make an incremental improvement in our play (which he hasn't even achieved).




That's part of it. The other part was to make sure we didn't have any other Giuseppe Rossi situations and to lure in every player with a sliver of American nationality to play for us. He 100% succeeded in that and that part is not even in dispute.


----------



## Basement Cat

Brock Anton said:


> The other midfielder was Diego Valeri, pretty much a pure No. 10. Nagbe was playing the more box to box role, but with Chara's ability to cover ground, he wasn't really needed that much defensively. I agree with the second part, He wouldn't be effective in a flat 4-4-2 against anyone really, let alone Argentina. Especially next to a guy like Bradley. He either needs to be a #8 in a 4-3-3 or a #10 in a 4-3-2-1.




Don't think anyone here advocated putting him next to Bradley in a flat 4-4-2 on Tuesday. That would have been almost as stupid as Beckerman with Bradley in a flat 4-4-2.


----------



## Live in the Now

Brock Anton said:


> Dempsey? I disagree. He didn't really breakout as a really reliable goal scorer until 2010-11. Bradley is arguable, but peak Bradley IMO was when he was at Chievo and his first year at Roma ... both under Klinsmann.




Dempsey made some big contributions to Fulham's season the year before the WC and was also in his physical prime. The chipped goal against Juventus is the one I'm thinking of in particular. 



> Because unlike Bradley, Klinsmann actually had better options, and he left them at home. In no, way, shape or form should Wondo have been in the squad over Morris (hell, even Finlay and Kiesewetter would have been a better options). Wondo can't do anything but play up top, Morris would have slotted in for Wood perfectly as they play similar games and are versatile. We wouldn't have had to completely change our gameplan with Wood being suspended had Morris been there. Then he trotted out a formation that in no way helped Beckerman succeed. Everyone knows that Beckerman doesn't have the legs to cover the ground necessary in a 4-4-2, especially against a team with the quality of Argentina. It was a disaster waiting to happen. Again, that goes back to bringing in Wondo, his lack of versatility changed everything. I like Beckerman, but he's past it, and you could make the argument that bringing him (or Kitchen) over Danny Williams was a mistake as well. Williams would have been as close to a like-for-like replacement for Jones as we have.
> 
> It was also his fault in Brazil for not bringing a true backup for Jozy. He had Eddie Johnson and Terrence Boyd who could/would have filled that role ... but again, we got Wondo.




I agree with this part. Like I said before, I don't care about Klinsmann being the manager one way or another and I really don't like him. But I think we've had a decline in terms of player quality, especially at the top of the team. So I judge him and his results based on that. He could have brought other players, but in this particular game I don't know what more we could have gotten. A couple shots? I don't believe in moral victories so I'd feel the same about that as I do about the way the game actually happened.


----------



## Ugmo

Live in the Now said:


> That's part of it. The other part was to make sure we didn't have any other Giuseppe Rossi situations and to lure in every player with a sliver of American nationality to play for us. He 100% succeeded in that and that part is not even in dispute.




Now if there was ever an unsustainable strategy for elevating the national team, it's trying to convince enough people with dual passports to choose the Team USA.

Thank God we ended up with Mix Diskerud and have to name him to every US roster now matter how badly he's been playing.


----------



## Live in the Now

Ugmo said:


> Now if there was ever an unsustainable strategy for elevating the national team, it's trying to convince enough people with dual passports to choose the Team USA.
> 
> Thank God we ended up with Mix Diskerud and have to name him to every US roster now matter how badly he's been playing.



He wasn't on this one, so you seem woefully misinformed. 

Would be hilarious to read the complaining around here if we didn't have any of those players. We wouldn't even qualify for the WC and wouldn't have won a single game at the last one without any of them.


----------



## NJDevs26

Live in the Now said:


> A lot. *His mission wasn't to elevate our program, it was to get better results.* Whether or not we have is arguable. While everyone is reminiscing about Bob Bradley, we should point out that in his last Gold Cup we got completely beat the **** down and embarrassed by our biggest rivals. We should also point out that we got embarrassed in Copa America.




Well really it's both, considering he's also the technical director and has his hands in everything from the MNT to youth squads and development. And honestly the development's been somewhat of a dissapointment to this point. Most of the young players haven't progressed yet and they're still overreliant on Dempsey and Bradley, not to mention they clearly missed Howard and the oft-injured Altidore in recent months. You won't be seeing the US in Rio, although maybe that's a good thing with all the problems there. Results have been up and down for the MNT, mostly down since 2014. This tournament wasn't so much a step up as avoiding another step back.

And honestly to address the other post I don't think Klinsmann gets a free pass at all. Certainly coming into this tournament there were a lot of calls for his head.


----------



## Live in the Now

NJDevs26 said:


> Well really it's both, considering he's also the technical director and has his hands in everything from the MNT to youth squads and development. And honestly the development's been somewhat of a dissapointment to this point. Most of the young players haven't progressed yet and they're still reliant on Dempsey and Bradley. You won't be seeing the US in Rio, although maybe that's a good thing with all the problems there. Results have been up and down for the MNT, mostly down since 2014. This tournament wasn't so much a step up as avoiding another step back.
> 
> And honestly to address the other post I don't think Klinsmann gets a free pass at all. Certainly coming into this tournament there were a lot of calls for his head.




The youth squads have a lot of problems but player development isn't the job of the US program. It's the job of the clubs/schools these players are at to develop the players, that's where the players spend all their time. Subsequently it is then the jobs of the people of US Soccer to get the best results in the tournaments they play in, and to pick the best squads they can. That is their only job IMO. 

We should have qualified for the Olympics though.


----------



## Ugmo

Live in the Now said:


> He wasn't on this one, so you seem woefully misinformed.
> 
> Would be hilarious to read the complaining around here if we didn't have any of those players. We wouldn't even qualify for the WC and wouldn't have won a single game at the last one without any of them.




Why would we "not have any of those players"? We've always had foreign-born players. Which of those players do we have right now who would otherwise be good enough to play for the countries of their birth - Jones? Nope. Johnson? Doubtful. Brooks? Doubtful.

You're basically left with Zelalem and Green, neither of whom had anything to do with either qualifying for the WC or winning any of the games.

I mean seriously, if you're trying to avoid a Rossi-type situation, the only player who is even potentially in that league is Zelalem.


----------



## Live in the Now

The other option is that we ignore them and nobody calls them up when we could use them. That's happened quite a bit. 



Ugmo said:


> Why would we "not have any of those players"? We've always had foreign-born players. Which of those players do we have right now who would otherwise be good enough to play for the countries of their birth - Jones? Nope. Johnson? Doubtful. Brooks? Doubtful.
> 
> You're basically left with Zelalem and Green, neither of whom had anything to do with either qualifying for the WC or winning any of the games.




You say "we've always had them" so where were they in 2010 when we could have used them? The point is to make sure none of them get away again. Players like Subotic who should have played for the US should never have the chance to play somewhere else. Ibisevic says he'd have played for the US, sure coulda used him. Johansson is another who Klinsmann called up, but he was injured leading up to this. 

John Brooks had everything to do with winning a game. More deflection. It pains you so much to say Klinsmann has done his job even in one facet, so it shows that your comments are entirely lacking rationality.

Edit: The US has also made sure players like Cameron Carter-Vickers, Luis Gil, Matt Miazga, Rubio Rubin all don't wind up playing for another youth NT when they could have. And that's where all this **** starts.


----------



## Ugmo

Live in the Now said:


> You say "we've always had them" so where were they in 2010 when we could have used them? The point is to make sure none of them get away again. Players like Subotic who should have played for the US should never have the chance to play somewhere else.




Since we both qualified for World Cup 2010 and won a game, this is some nice goalpost-shifting.



Live in the Now said:


> John Brooks had everything to do with winning a game. More deflection. It pains you so much to say Klinsmann has done his job even in one facet, so it shows that your comments are entirely lacking rationality.




No, John Brooks a) would have never been playing for Germany in the first place an b) was 17 during the 2010 World Cup, so he wouldn't have been playing in that one for the U.S.

The U.S. has a long history of bringing in dual nationals, from Wegerle to Tom Dooley to Earnie Stewart to David Wagner. Klinsmann hasn't attracted a single dual national apart from Zelalem who ever had a shot at playing for a major national team and whom other U.S. national team coaches wouldn't also have been able to attract. If that's why we're paying the guy four times the salary of his predecessor (because it certainly isn't because he's improved our playing style), I would suggest it's wasted money.


----------



## Brock Anton

Where were they in 2010?

- Jones was in the set up, but injured for South Africa. Would have been a lock starter had he been fit. 
- Diskerud had just joined the U.S. setup for the U-20's in 2009, nowhere near ready for the senior side. 
- Chandler was ~6 months away from debuting, and with Cherundolo at RB, he wasn't yet needed (was playing for Frankfurt's reserves anyways). 
- Castillo wasn't really playing that much for America, and with Boca at LB (and w/BB's love for Bornstein), he wasn't going to make it barring an injury. 

As for Klinsmann's dual-nats: Johnson was just with the German U-21's the year before, so he may have felt he had a future there, Williams was toiling in Freiburg's reserves, Brooks was 17 years old and Johannsson was an unknown youth player for Iceland. Only maybe Johnson would have made any difference in 2010, and that is probably a stretch.


----------



## Live in the Now

Ugmo said:


> Since we both qualified for World Cup 2010 and won a game, this is some nice goalpost-shifting.






We could have used foreign-born players to do even better. I am not sure if you are understanding. 



> No, John Brooks a) would have never been playing for Germany in the first place an b) was 17 during the 2010 World Cup, so he wouldn't have been playing in that one for the U.S.








> The U.S. has a long history of bringing in dual nationals, from Wegerle to Tom Dooley to Earnie Stewart to David Wagner. Klinsmann hasn't attracted a single dual national apart from Zelalem who ever had a shot at playing for a major national team and whom other U.S. national team coaches wouldn't also have been able to attract. If that's why we're paying the guy four times the salary of his predecessor (because it certainly isn't because he's improved our playing style), I would suggest it's wasted money.




Define major. I listed some younger players at the end of the last post when I edited it. Does it matter as long as they're good enough to play for us? Fabian Johnson did have a shot, he wouldn't have been in the German youth teams for so long if he wasn't. Same with John Brooks getting called by theirs, you don't know how things would have turned out. Robert Huth played for Germany after all. Fact is we needed them and got them. 

I agree, it's wasted money because the NT manager has very little to do with whether or not an NT is successful or not. I am not exactly sure which parts of this you are not understanding.


----------



## Live in the Now

Brock Anton said:


> Where were they in 2010?
> As for Klinsmann's dual-nats: Johnson was just with the German U-21's the year before, so he may have felt he had a future there, Williams was toiling in Freiburg's reserves, Brooks was 17 years old and Johannsson was an unknown youth player for Iceland. Only maybe Johnson would have made any difference in 2010, and that is probably a stretch.




I wasn't only talking about Klinsmann's. I was talking about all of them, including the ones who had chosen a long time ago. Klinsmann was hired in part to make sure that kind of thing didn't happen again and has been successful in making sure of that so far.


----------



## Brock Anton

Live in the Now said:


> I wasn't only talking about Klinsmann's. I was talking about all of them, including the ones who had chosen a long time ago. Klinsmann was hired in part to make sure that kind of thing didn't happen again and has been successful in making sure of that so far.




I'm not denying that. Certainly his name and stature has been a boost into getting these guys into the U.S. system. I was just answering your question of where the dual national players (that we currently have) were in 2010.


----------



## Ugmo

Live in the Now said:


> We could have used foreign-born players to do even better. I am not sure if you are understanding.




What foreign players could we have had in 2010 who would have made us any better? Ibisevic left the country before he ever became a citizen, and wouldn't have been eligible anyway. Subotic would have been great, but he felt Thomas Rongen betrayed him to the point at which he no longer wanted to play for the U.S. Would Klinsmann have been able to convince him otherwise? Who knows. Jermaine Jones was injured. Who else was Bradley supposed to call in? You appear to be specifically critizing him for failing to come up with major foreign-born additions to the team - who was even an option apart from possibly Subotic? And don't say Rossi. Rossi went to Italy as a kid because he always wanted to play for Italy.





Live in the Now said:


>




Which part of this do you find amusing... you think Brooks would ever have had a legitimate shot at representing Germany in 2014, or indeed for any length of time? Why would it specifically take Klinsmann to make this argument to him?




Live in the Now said:


> Define major. I listed some younger players at the end of the last post when I edited it. Does it matter as long as they're good enough to play for us? Fabian Johnson did have a shot, he wouldn't have been in the German youth teams for so long if he wasn't. Same with John Brooks getting called by theirs, you don't know how things would have turned out. Robert Huth played for Germany after all. Fact is we needed them and got them.




It's possible that Brooks and Johnson would have gotten a shot with the senior team, I suppose, although it would have been far less likely than a long career with the U.S. Why do you think a different U.S. coach wouldn't have attempted/succeeded in winning them over? Like I said, we've had plenty of foreign-born players in the past.




Live in the Now said:


> I agree, it's wasted money because the NT manager has very little to do with whether or not an NT is successful or not. I am not exactly sure which parts of this you are not understanding.




What do you mean by manager... coach? If so, that's a bizarre statement. Technical director? Also a bizarre statement. Why does any national team have a technical director then?


----------



## Live in the Now

Ugmo said:


> Which part of this do you find amusing... you think Brooks would ever have had a legitimate shot at representing Germany in 2014, or indeed for any length of time? Why would it specifically take Klinsmann to make this argument to him?




The part where players decide their national team based on one World Cup is the part I find funny. It doesn't specifically take Klinsmann, but it obviously takes somebody with gravitas and it probably played a part.



> It's possible that Brooks and Johnson would have gotten a shot with the senior team, I suppose, although it would have been far less likely than a long career with the U.S. Why do you think a different U.S. coach wouldn't have attempted/succeeded in winning them over? Like I said, we've had plenty of foreign-born players in the past.




See above



> What do you mean by manager... coach? If so, that's a bizarre statement. Technical director? Also a bizarre statement. Why does any national team have a technical director then?




To make sure all the youth national teams are playing the same style as the senior team, to make sure certain players are in the youth national teams, monitoring talent to see how things are going, etc. It's kind of a bogus title though. The success of our national team will ultimately be determined by what youth coaches in our country do with the players that sign up to play youth soccer and Klinsmann/US Soccer has zero control over that. They can say whatever they want about his involvement with the program but other than picking the squads, lineups, and making sure players play for America, it doesn't mean anything.


----------



## NJDevs26

Speaking of Klinsmann....lol, Southhampton, really?!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...n-klinsmann-usmnt-southampton-coach/86278518/


----------



## Ugmo

NJDevs26 said:


> Speaking of Klinsmann....lol, Southhampton, really?!
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...n-klinsmann-usmnt-southampton-coach/86278518/




Yes please!


----------



## Ugmo

Live in the Now said:


> The part where players decide their national team based on one World Cup is the part I find funny. It doesn't specifically take Klinsmann, but it obviously takes somebody with gravitas and it probably played a part.




Guys like Johnson and Brooks have no guarantee that they're going to play in any World Cup, let alone several of them. With Klinsmann obviously making that guarantee to people like Julian Green, it's a pretty damned good argument. And one that any USMNT head coach could make to a lesser/bubble player in Germany.




Live in the Now said:


> To make sure all the youth national teams are playing the same style as the senior team, to make sure certain players are in the youth national teams, monitoring talent to see how things are going, etc. It's kind of a bogus title though. The success of our national team will ultimately be determined by what youth coaches in our country do with the players that sign up to play youth soccer and Klinsmann/US Soccer has zero control over that. They can say whatever they want about his involvement with the program *but other than picking the squads, lineups, and making sure players play for Americ*a, it doesn't mean anything.




Yeah, other than that, Mrs. Lincoln enjoyed the play.


----------



## cgf

Basement Cat said:


> His best role is as an 8. For Portland, when they try to play him on the wing, he is a mixed bag. When they moved him to the 8, with a #10 in front of him and a #6 behind him, they won the MLS Cup. For club and country that is by far his best position imo. When he came on against Ecuador it was not on the wing. Unfortunately, the USMNT does not have a CAM as good as Diego Valeri, so I would play Nagbe in a system where there is a dedicated 6 (Bradley) and another box to box guy next to Nagbe (Jones), if we had a must win game tomorrow.






Brock Anton said:


> The other midfielder was Diego Valeri, pretty much a pure No. 10 (a very good one at that). Nagbe was playing the more box to box role, but with Chara's ability to cover ground, he wasn't really needed that much defensively. I agree with the second part, He wouldn't be effective in a flat 4-4-2 against anyone really, let alone Argentina. Especially next to a guy like Bradley. He either needs to be a #8 in a 4-3-3 or a #10 in a 4-3-2-1.




Interesting. I guess I under-estimate just how up-n-down the MLS is...or maybe I under-estimate Nagbe's control in tight spaces. In either case playing him and Johnson as 8s in front of Bradley should have been a consideration, although that may not have done much for the sloppiness of your build up play if Valeri and Chara carry more of that responsibility in Portland, and Klinsi wouldn't be the first international coach unwilling to make such radical changes in such a big match.


----------



## Basement Cat

cgf said:


> Interesting. I guess I under-estimate just how up-n-down the MLS is...or maybe I understand Nagbe's control in tight spaces. In either case playing him and Johnson as 8s in front of Bradley should have been a consideration, although that may not have done much for the sloppiness of your build up play if Valeri and Chara carry more of that responsibility in Portland, and Klinsi wouldn't be the first international coach unwilling to make such radical changes in such a big match.




I'd say that in Portland, Nagbe carries as much of the build-up responsibility as anyone else in the midfield. Chara, while being a decent distributor, usually lays it off to Nagbe who is good at finding open spaces. Then, he typically finds Valeri further up the field or sprays it out wide. I don't know what to call him in proper football terminology, but I think of him as a "connector" of sorts. He links up the backline with the attack very fluidly and is a good dribbler in tight spaces; easily the best in the US pool when it comes to center mids (maybe Zelalem is close?). 

I love the idea of your suggested midfield trio. The problem is we need to address the left back situation in a hurry. Villafana is a favorite of mine for that spot but we will need to see what Jurgen does with it. I am fine with Besler there for some games in World Cup Qualifying. 

Something like:

----------Dempsey
Wood----------------Zardes
-------Nagbe----Fabian
------------Bradley
Besler-Brooks-Cameron-Yedlin

Then eventually Pulisic steps into the starting XI for Dempsey (shift Wood to striker and Pulisic to LW)


----------



## bluesfan94

Pulisic, Miazga, and CCV all have the potential to have played for major European countries.


----------



## Basement Cat

bluesfan94 said:


> Pulisic, Miazga, and CCV all have the potential to have played for major European countries.




Pulisic and Miazga were going nowhere regardless of the manager. CCV on the other hand, don't know enough about.


----------



## bluesfan94

Basement Cat said:


> Pulisic and Miazga were going nowhere regardless of the manager. CCV on the other hand, don't know enough about.




Is that for sure? I mean, isn't that what was thought with Subotic too?


----------



## Live in the Now

bluesfan94 said:


> Is that for sure? I mean, isn't that what was thought with Subotic too?




On November 5, 2015, Miazga was quoted as saying: "I'm totally undecided. Iâ€™ll wait to see who calls me first to the main national team and see what happens then.â€[25] The following day, Miazga received his first United States call-up for the 2018 FIFA World Cup Qualifiers matches.

These two are definitely not unrelated.


----------



## Brock Anton

bluesfan94 said:


> Is that for sure? I mean, isn't that what was thought with Subotic too?




Pulisic, there was no chance of him ever playing for Croatia. He only used his Croatian citizenship so he could to go to Dortmund before he turned 18. Miazga, as LITN posted, was mostly leaning towards the U.S., but if we didn't call him, the threat of Poland was always going to be there (IIRC, his family wanted him to play for Poland). 

Speaking of dual-national prospects, we've just lost Alex Zendejas of FC Dallas (for at least the time being) as he has just been transferred to Chivas Guadalajara.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Jurgen is the betting favorite to get the job for England.


----------



## chasespace

spintheblackcircle said:


> Jurgen is the betting favorite to get the job for England.




I hope he takes it.


----------



## kingsboy11

England would be dumb to hire him as manager. That being said I'll personally drive Klinnsman to the airport if he takes the job.


----------



## N o o d l e s

chasespace said:


> I hope he takes it.




I'm praying


----------



## Brock Anton

Klinsmann with England would be a riot. It's too good to be true.


----------



## Live in the Now

Yeah, hope so.


----------



## John Price

Lot of stronger chatter about Jurgen being linked to England international job or other epl vacancies.

It no secret I'm probably biggest Jurgen fan boy so this makes no sense. With him looking alright here at USA why would England want him? His status quo here... Is a failure there. So go hire big Sam or something and keep off Jurgen.


----------



## chasespace

Mike Emrick said:


> Lot of stronger chatter about Jurgen being linked to England international job or other epl vacancies.
> 
> It no secret I'm probably biggest Jurgen fan boy so this makes no sense. With him looking alright here at USA why would England want him? His status quo here... Is a failure there. So go hire big Sam or something and keep off Jurgen.




The problem with the last few England managers have been they've been trying to manage the game too much. Klinssman would just put the players out their and cheer them on, giving them more tactical freedom which would probably benefit them


----------



## John Price

Jill Ellis on Olympics preparations, Alex Morgan, and what she's writing in her notebook
Planet FÃºtbol
Duration: 20:51
Published: Fri, 08 Jul 2016 22:38:15 +0000
URL: http://feeds.soundcloud.com/stream/272807613-planet-futbol-jill-ellis-uswnt-olympics-alex-morgan.mp3

The summer of soccer continues in August as the Rio Olympics get underway, with the U.S. women's national team looking to follow up its 2015 World Cup title with Olympic gold. In advance of the tourna...



----
Sent from Podcast Republic 2.8.10
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.itunestoppodcastplayer.app


----------



## Brock Anton

All I can say is that Heather O'Reilly is a hell of a bigger person than I am. Because if I got cut for a player who hasn't played a game since last October, I certainly wouldn't agree to travel with the team as an alternate.


----------



## John Price

Good to see England didn't hire Jurgen.
Let's put it this way for Jurgen haters. Why would you want him out with an incomplete project? Who'll finish the job?


----------



## Ugmo

at "finish the job." Any positive effect JÃ¼rgen had on our program and team has long since dissipated. Massive mistake to renew his contract.

England dodged a huge bullet and we're stuck with the snake oil salesman.


----------



## kingsboy11

He wasn't the right guy for the English job anyways


----------



## Basement Cat

Ugmo said:


> at "finish the job." Any positive effect JÃ¼rgen had on our program and team has long since dissipated. Massive mistake to renew his contract.
> 
> England dodged a huge bullet and we're stuck with the snake oil salesman.




Dude, we are sooooo lucky to have him. Proactive soccer!!1!1


----------



## IU Hawks fan

Ugmo said:


> at "finish the job." Any positive effect JÃ¼rgen had on our program and team has long since dissipated. Massive mistake to renew his contract.
> 
> *England dodged a huge bullet *and we're stuck with the snake oil salesman.




Not really, considering who they ended up with. 

They wouldn't go anywhere with either.


----------



## Live in the Now

Yeah, the thing is, if England approaches someone for a job, you know they're not that good.


----------



## John Price

Other than Caleb Porter or Jurgen assistants there is no elite replacement. Deal with Jurgen until 2018 folks.


----------



## Ugmo

Mike Emrick said:


> Other than Caleb Porter or Jurgen assistants there is no elite replacement. Deal with Jurgen until 2018 folks.




Do we have to go over this ******** again? I mean, really? We once again have to deal with the JÃ¼rgen fans acting like he's some kind of irreplacable genius, rather than overpaid and mediocre?

The guy goes 3-3 at Copa America (on home soil) and all of a sudden we have to deal with the same nonsense arguments we had to put up with before his atrocious performance in the Gold Cup and the Confederation's Cup playoffs. I'll "deal" with JÃ¼rgen until 2018, which will involve me consistently pointing out he's garbage, and the JÃ¼rgen fans will have to deal with that.

p.s. "JÃ¼rgen assistants" is pretty hilarious. Yeah, Herzog did an amazing job with the Olympic team. What an "elite replacement" he would be. Do you think this stuff through before you commit text to keyboard, Mike?


----------



## Basement Cat

Funn how you use "elite replacement" like that, considering Jurgen is FAAARRRR from "elite"


----------



## bleedblue1223

Ugmo said:


> Do we have to go over this ******** again? I mean, really? We once again have to deal with the JÃ¼rgen fans acting like he's some kind of irreplacable genius, rather than overpaid and mediocre?
> 
> The guy goes 3-3 at Copa America (on home soil) and all of a sudden we have to deal with the same nonsense arguments we had to put up with before his atrocious performance in the Gold Cup and the Confederation's Cup playoffs. I'll "deal" with JÃ¼rgen until 2018, which will involve me consistently pointing out he's garbage, and the JÃ¼rgen fans will have to deal with that.
> 
> p.s. "JÃ¼rgen assistants" is pretty hilarious. Yeah, Herzog did an amazing job with the Olympic team. What an "elite replacement" he would be. Do you think this stuff through before you commit text to keyboard, Mike?




At Copa, we beat everyone we should've beat and lost to Colombia and Argentina. That wasn't a coaching problem, that's just a lack of talent problem. Yes, the Gold Cup was bad, and that probably should have been the end of his time, but it is what it is. 

USA soccer's biggest problem has never been the coaching, it's always been the talent. We simply can't field a team to consistently compete with the best, yet fans and media believe we should have a team that can compete.


----------



## Ugmo

bleedblue1223 said:


> At Copa, we beat everyone we should've beat and lost to Colombia and Argentina. That wasn't a coaching problem, that's just a lack of talent problem. Yes, the Gold Cup was bad, and that probably should have been the end of his time, but it is what it is.





Was it a lack of talent problem when we lost to Guatemala? Was it a lack of talent problem when we lost to Panama and Jamaica in the Gold Cup? Was it a lack of talent when we got outshot by Haiti? For that matter, was it a lack of talent problem when we went the entire game against Argentina _without getting a single shot off_? No. That is a coaching problem.

So goddamned sick of this argument. Klinsmann was hired to elevate the program. He has failed at that task. Not only has he failed, the lows under Klinsmann have been far lower than under both of his predecessors, and the highs have been barely higher, if at all. Fire him, don't fire him, whatever. Just don't feed us this ******** argument that he can't be replaced because he's supposedly some kind of world-class coach. He's proven over the past five years than he's far from that and clearly replaceable.



bleedblue1223 said:


> USA soccer's biggest problem has never been the coaching, it's always been the talent. We simply can't field a team to consistently compete with the best, yet fans and media believe we should have a team that can compete.




This is a massive strawman. No one is blaming Klinsmann for the fact that we can't "consistently compete with the best." People are blaming Klinsmann for the total lack of progress. When you perform as badly as we did last year against the minnows in our region, you lose the benefit of the doubt. What the hell are we paying this guy for if we're not even making progress? We're paying him four times more than his predecessor and the progress has been non-existent to negligible.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Ugmo said:


> Was it a lack of talent problem when we lost to Guatemala? Was it a lack of talent problem when we lost to Panama and Jamaica in the Gold Cup? Was it a lack of talent when we got outshot by Haiti? For that matter, was it a lack of talent problem when we went the entire game against Argentina _without getting a single shot off_? No. That is a coaching problem.
> 
> So goddamned sick of this argument. Klinsmann was hired to elevate the program. He has failed at that task. Not only has he failed, the lows under Klinsmann have been far lower than under both of his predecessors, and the highs have been barely higher, if at all. Fire him, don't fire him, whatever. Just don't feed us this ******** argument that he can't be replaced because he's supposedly some kind of world-class coach. He's proven over the past five years than he's far from that and clearly replaceable.




I literally said the Gold Cup was a low and he should have been fired. I don't like Jurgen, but lets not act like the USMNT can compete with top clubs.

Donovan has retired, and Bradley and Dempsey are both past their primes. We haven't had a difference maker step up and take their spot. That's a talent issue. We have 0 difference making talents. One person can't transform our youth development. One person can't make our top athletes choose soccer instead of baseball, football, basketball, or even hockey.


----------



## Ugmo

bleedblue1223 said:


> I literally said the Gold Cup was a low and he should have been fired. I don't like Jurgen, *but lets not act like the USMNT can compete with top clubs.*
> 
> Donovan has retired, and Bradley and Dempsey are both past their primes. We haven't had a difference maker step up and take their spot. That's a talent issue. We have 0 difference making talents. One person can't transform our youth development. One person can't make our top athletes choose soccer instead of baseball, football, basketball, or even hockey.




Stop. Just stop with this strawman.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Ugmo said:


> Stop. Just stop with this strawman.




Then don't use Copa as an example for firing Jurgen. Even if we played our best, and Argentina played their typical game, they would've stomped us. The Copa played out exactly how it should have for the games presented to us.

You also can't say that Jurgen was suppose to advance us and then call me a strawman. If Jurgen was suppose to advance us then it was to complete with top teams. He has a higher winning percentage than Bradley and Arena, just a couple points though. He's done just as well as past managers. He's not a transcendent coach, this proves that it's a lack of talent issue.


----------



## Ugmo

bleedblue1223 said:


> Then don't use Copa as an example for firing Jurgen. Even if we played our best, and Argentina played their typical game, they would've stomped us. The Copa played out exactly how it should have for the games presented to us.
> 
> You also can't say that Jurgen was suppose to advance us and then call me a strawman. If Jurgen was suppose to advance us then it was to complete with top teams. He has a higher winning percentage than Bradley and Arena, just a couple points though. He's done just as well as past managers. He's not a transcendent coach, this proves that it's a lack of talent issue.




Once again, we didn't get a single shot off against Argentina. That is 100 percent a coaching problem. And on top of that, what the hell were Wondo, Beckerman and Zusi doing out there in the first place? This guy puts out scared, slow lineups that are destined to fail, and then everyone blames the players rather than the guy who chooses the rosters and lineups.

Klinsmann's performance over the past couple of years has been atrocious. His winning percentage is barely above Arena's. He's being paid four times more than Bradley to get essentially the same results. His first cycle was okay. Extending his contract was a huge blunder.

And again, I understand that we're stuck with him and he's not going anywhere, but just don't revert to the argument that Mike is dragging out again that he's some world-beater who can't be replaced, or your argument that our problems are 100 percent down to our players and that we wouldn't benefit from better coaching than Klinsmann can offer.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Ugmo said:


> Once again, we didn't get a single shot off against Argentina. That is 100 percent a coaching problem. And on top of that, what the hell were Wondo, Beckerman and Zusi doing out there in the first place? This guy puts out scared, slow lineups that are destined to fail, and then everyone blames the players rather than the guy who chooses the rosters and lineups.
> 
> Klinsmann's performance over the past couple of years has been atrocious. His winning percentage is barely above Arena's. He's being paid four times more than Bradley to get essentially the same results. His first cycle was okay. Extending his contract was a huge blunder.
> 
> And again, I understand that we're stuck with him and he's not going anywhere, but just don't revert to the argument that Mike is dragging out again that he's some world-beater who can't be replaced, or your argument that our problems are 100 percent down to our players and that we wouldn't benefit from better coaching than Klinsmann can offer.




Wood, Bedoya, and Jones weren't available. I would've loved for Nagbe to get more of a chance, but lets not act like Nagbe or Pulisic would've made a difference if they started. 

What could Jurgen have done differently against Argentina? They were always going to stomp us. Players weren't good enough and part of that is a talent issue. A massive talent different will always trump a crafty chess move. Jurgen isn't a top coach to elevate his team past their talent level anyway. If that was his expectation, they you have too high of expectations.


----------



## Ugmo

Once again, I'm not demanding that we beat Argentina. I'm suggesting that the fact we couldn't even get a shot off against them is a coaching problem. We need to stop giving the players 100 percent of the blame for these shoddy performances and absolving Klinsmann of all responsibility. And unfortunately that is the hallmark of the Klinsmann era, whereby he gets all the praise when we win and none of the blame when we lose.


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## bleedblue1223

I'm kind of with you. Jurgen should get just as much praise as Arena and Bradley got, not more, no less. Same goes on blame, no more, no less. I have a hard time blaming the coach for Argentina because that's what will happen when a team like Argentina plays their best. That's just the current state of the USMNT. I'm fine with Argentina destroying us, but we shouldn't lose or play down to other opponents on or below our level. That's why Jurgen should have been previously fired.


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## Suiteness

Ugmo said:


> Once again, I'm not demanding that we beat Argentina. I'm suggesting that the fact we couldn't even get a shot off against them is a coaching problem.




Well, Man City managed one shot on goal over two legs in the semis of the Champions league against Real Madrid last year. That's just the reality of being outclassed in Football.


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## Ugmo

I think Mike Emrick justs posts stuff like this to get me worked up.


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## IU Hawks fan

They played that game man down for like 80 minutes for **** sake.


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## Ugmo

IU Hawks fan said:


> They played that game man down for like 80 minutes for **** sake.




What game?


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## Jussi

Ugmo said:


> at "finish the job." Any positive effect JÃ¼rgen had on our program and team has long since dissipated. Massive mistake to renew his contract.
> 
> England dodged a huge bullet and we're stuck with the snake oil salesman.




Klinsmann>>>>>>>> Big Sam


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## Basement Cat

Jussi said:


> Klinsmann>>>>>>>> Big Sam




Both suck.


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## Big McLargehuge

Ugmo said:


> What game?




Every game that Wondolowski starts.


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## Ugmo

Big McLargehuge said:


> Every game that Wondolowski starts.


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## bleedblue1223

Big McLargehuge said:


> Every game that Wondolowski starts.




So true.


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## John Price

Men in Blazers 08/02/16: USWNT Pod Special With Jill Ellis
Men In Blazers
Duration: 26:54
Published: Tue, 02 Aug 2016 15:39:45 +0000
URL: http://feeds.soundcloud.com/stream/...-080216-uswnt-pod-special-with-jill-ellis.mp3

Rog talks with USWNT manager Jill Ellis about the challenges facing the defending gold medalists in Brazil, the difficulty of narrowing her roster to 18 players and the team's evolving style of play.

Subscribe to this podcast: http://feeds.feedburner.com/MenInBlazers

----
Sent from Podcast Republic 2.8.11
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.itunestoppodcastplayer.app


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## Brock Anton

> GOALKEEPERS (3): Brad Guzan (Middlesbrough), Ethan Horvath (Molde FC), Tim Howard (Colorado Rapids)
> 
> DEFENDERS (9): Kellyn Acosta (FC Dallas), Matt Besler (Sporting Kansas City), Steve Birnbaum (D.C. United), John Brooks (Hertha BSC), Geoff Cameron (Stoke City), Omar Gonzalez (Pachuca), Fabian Johnson (Borussia Monchengladbach), Michael Orozco (Club Tijuana), DeAndre Yedlin (Newcastle United)
> 
> MIDFIELDERS (9): Paul Arriola (Club Tijuana), Kyle Beckerman (Real Salt Lake),Alejandro Bedoya (Philadelphia Union), Michael Bradley (Toronto FC), Jermaine Jones (Colorado Rapids), Darlington Nagbe (Portland Timbers), Christian Pulisic (Borussia Dortmund), Caleb Stanko (FC Vaduz), Graham Zusi (Sporting Kansas City)
> 
> FORWARDS (5): Jozy Altidore (Toronto FC), Jordan Morris (Seattle Sounders FC), Rubio Rubin (FC Utrecht), Chris Wondolowski (San Jose Earthquakes), Bobby Wood (Hamburg SV)




hah wondo


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## SJSharks72

Bradley and Orozco are out for the first qualifier. It's against St. Vincent anyway. What do you guys see as the starting lineup?

For the St. Vincent game, I'm hoping for:
Pulisic-Altidore-Morris
Nagbe-Bedoya
Jones
Johnson-Brooks-Cameron-Yedlin
Howard/Guzan (don't care as much about this)

vs. T&T
Altidore-Morris
Nagbe-Bradley-Jones-Bedoya
Johnson-Brooks-Cameron-Yedlin
Howard/Guzan


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## Brock Anton

I imagine that Jurgen goes with vets against SVG so we can potentially clinch before the T&T game. I highly doubt he's going to put inexperienced players in a must win game on the road in CONCACAF (I realize it's SVG, but remember Antigua away in 2012?). 

Howard/Guzan
Yedlin - Cameron - Brooks - Johnson
Beckerman - Jones
Zusi - Bedoya - Wood
Altidore

If we win and T&T wins vs. Guatemala, we clinch a hex spot. If that happens, I'd think/hope that JK gives some of the younger guys a run out vs. T&T, as it would pretty much be a glorified friendly at that point.


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## Big McLargehuge

****ing Wondo.


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## East Coast Bias

Way overdue. Glad to see Sacha back.


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## chasespace

Would have liked to see less of the old guard but I more expect that for the Cuba and New Zealand friendlies. If Jurgen brings in the likes of Wondo and Beckerman and Howard to those games then I will really be worried about what our team will look like in the Hex.


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## Basement Cat

Would be ecstatic with this narrow diamond on Friday:

------Jozy------Wood
---------Klejstan
----Nagbe-----Bedoya
---------Cameron
FJ---Besler---Gonzo---Yedlin

Instead I expect this:

-----Jozy--Wood
Zusi-------------Bedoya
--------Nagbe
-------Beckerman
Same back 4


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## John Price

Tmz released video of angry hope solo. 

She's got anger issues


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## bluesfan94

Basement Cat said:


> Would be ecstatic with this narrow diamond on Friday:
> 
> ------Jozy------Wood
> ---------Klejstan
> ----Nagbe-----Bedoya
> ---------Cameron
> FJ---Besler---Gonzo---Yedlin
> 
> Instead I expect this:
> 
> -----Jozy--Wood
> Zusi-------------Bedoya
> --------Nagbe
> -------Beckerman
> Same back 4




Klinsy likes Cameron. It would surprise me if he didn't play. I still dream of a 3-5-2

Jozy - Wood
FJ - Nagbe - Jones - Bedoya - Yedlin
Besler - Cameron - Gonzo​


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## Basement Cat

bluesfan94 said:


> Klinsy likes Cameron. It would surprise me if he didn't play. I still dream of a 3-5-2
> 
> Jozy - Wood
> FJ - Nagbe - Jones - Bedoya - Yedlin
> Besler - Cameron - Gonzo​





In that second lineup I meant to have GCam in for one of Gonzo/Besler.

But yea I like that formation...honestly it's not too different from how I expect that narrow diamond that I posted to play...I just have Klejstan in for Jones (and expect Sacha higher up the field)

Wood up top with Jozy playing off of him...Keljstan in the middle behind the two. Cameron at CDM/Sweeper essentially and Nagbe/Bedoya as the box to box CMs. It would require a lot of work rate from Yedlin and FJ but they are up for it.


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## bluesfan94

Basement Cat said:


> In that second lineup I meant to have GCam in for one of Gonzo/Besler.
> 
> But yea I like that formation...honestly it's not too different from how I expect that narrow diamond that I posted to play...I just have Klejstan in for Jones (and expect Sacha higher up the field)




That is true. I think the responsibilities would be a little different but it's definitely a similar idea.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

When have we played with a 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 in the last few years?


----------



## bluesfan94

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> When have we played with a 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 in the last few years?




We haven't. Doesn't mean I don't wish we had. not the 3-4-3 though.


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## bleedblue1223

I don't think we have the ability for a successful back 3. Conte and Italy showed that you can use it effectively to overcome a lack of talent, which we have, but you still need certain traits for it to work.


----------



## bluesfan94

bleedblue1223 said:


> I don't think we have the ability for a successful back 3. Conte and Italy showed that you can use it effectively to overcome a lack of talent, which we have, but you still need certain traits for it to work.




I'm not sure. Obviously our back three doesn't touch the back three of Italy. But we have solid wing backs and I think those two forwards will play well off each other.


----------



## Savant

USA has great personnel to play three at the back, but the wrong coaching staff to implement it.


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## SJSharks72

Savant said:


> USA has great personnel to play three at the back, but the wrong coaching staff to implement it.




I really don't think we do. We don't have good enough CBs or DMs to do it.


----------



## bluesfan94

SJSharks39 said:


> I really don't think we do. We don't have good enough CBs or DMs to do it.




You don't need a great DM necessarily. Cameron and Brooks are certainly good enough CBs to play. I think CCV/Miazga would be as well. Besler is a capable stand in. I think given full health, this formation looks good:

Altidore - Wood/Dempsey
FJ - Nagbe - Jones - Bradley - Yedlin
Cameron - Besler - Brooks​
I see Nagbe and Bradley playing dual B2B midfielders. Jones doesn't need to be great, just good enough to distribute short passes and cycle possession. Yedlin and FJ should both be fantastic wing backs.


----------



## Savant

SJSharks39 said:


> I really don't think we do. We don't have good enough CBs or DMs to do it.




Have you seen their fullbacks?

Johnson and Yedlin are made to play as the wingers in that formation, and Johnson plays that position specifically for his
Club team at a very high level. USA can use their athletic players at those spots. USA has a lot of CBs actually. I think it could work.


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## Live in the Now

CB is arguably our best position. It would make sense to construct a formation where as many of them are on the field as possible.


----------



## Savant

Live in the Now said:


> CB is arguably our best position. It would make sense to construct a formation where as many of them are on the field as possible.




I think it is very fair to say that.


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## Basement Cat

I don't see why we can't play a 3 man backline (really a 5 man). For the past few years when Beckerman has started, we have basically been playing a sort of hybrid system of that. The fullbacks were almost always pushed up and expected to provide the width and Beckerman was staying at home just in front of the two CBs. Why not play a similar system except with a player who has much more range than Beckerman (Geoff Cameron) sitting slightly in front of two CBs?

So it would be Yedlin and FJ as the wingbacks...with Brooks as the LCB and one of Besler/Gonzo/Birnbaum (wish Miazga was getting consistent minutes) as the RCB. Then Cameron in between them.

Higher up the field you would have a ton of options. For me, Jozy and Wood are the starting duo up top with Dempsey as a super sub. Then the 3 man CM trio is Bradley and Bedoya as box to box mids and Nagbe or Klejstan playing behind the two strikers.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Most teams that play a 4-3-3 or some variation of that with a holding midfielder end up in a 3 man back line when attacking, but they still rely on a back 4 when defending. 

We don't have players that are good enough on the ball to play with a back 3. Besides Johnson and Yedlin, we have no depth for wingbacks. I don't think we have the CM's good enough to do what it takes either. We don't have the athleticism or ball-playing ability to do it. 

We'd be destroyed by good teams.


----------



## Basement Cat

bleedblue1223 said:


> Most teams that play a 4-3-3 or some variation of that with a holding midfielder end up in a 3 man back line when attacking, but they still rely on a back 4 when defending.
> 
> We don't have players that are good enough on the ball to play with a back 3. Besides Johnson and Yedlin, we have no depth for wingbacks. I don't think we have the CM's good enough to do what it takes either. We don't have the athleticism or ball-playing ability to do it.
> 
> We'd be destroyed by good teams.




How would what I proposed be so much different than this:

-------Jozy---------Wood
--------Nagbe/Klejstan
---Bradley------------Bedoya
-----------Cameron
FJ---Brooks-------Besler----Yedlin

Same exact group of players. You don't think that we could do well with this lineup?


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## bleedblue1223

Basement Cat said:


> Same exact group of players. You don't think that we could do well with this lineup?




I guess define well. 

We'd need a new coach for a back 3, but I don't think anyone would complain there. Unfortunately with our inability to play quality, link-up soccer, we'd be hemmed in too much and we'd be playing a 5-3-2 too much. 

For USA soccer to perform at it's best right now, it still has to be counter-attacking based, and absorb a lot of pressure. A back 3 in that scenario could end in disaster if not done properly.


----------



## Basement Cat

bleedblue1223 said:


> I guess define well.
> 
> We'd need a new coach for a back 3, but I don't think anyone would complain there. Unfortunately with our inability to play quality, link-up soccer, we'd be hemmed in too much and we'd be playing a 5-3-2 too much.
> 
> For USA soccer to perform at it's best right now, it still has to be counter-attacking based, and absorb a lot of pressure. A back 3 in that scenario could end in disaster if not done properly.




That's why I advocate the narrow 4-4-2 which plays kinda like a 3 man backline but kinda not at the same time. Regardless, yes I would love a new coach as long as he cut the dead weight like Beckerman, Orozco, Wondo and that ilk.


----------



## chasespace

Jurgen is upset the youth isn't pushing the veterans out, yet continues to call in veterans over youth so they can't make a push for regular spots

http://www.espnfc.com/united-states...ed-to-push-older-players-out-jurgen-klinsmann


----------



## bleedblue1223

chasespace said:


> Jurgen is upset the youth isn't pushing the veterans out, yet continues to call in veterans over youth so they can't make a push for regular spots
> 
> http://www.espnfc.com/united-states...ed-to-push-older-players-out-jurgen-klinsmann




They can make a push by proving themselves on their clubs. Our younger generation simply isn't good enough right now. Spots on the national team can't just be given out to young players just because we want them to push through.


----------



## chasespace

bleedblue1223 said:


> They can make a push by proving themselves on their clubs. Our younger generation simply isn't good enough right now. Spots on the national team can't just be given out to young players just because we want them to push through.




I'd say Gooch and Miazga have earned call ups with their club play(Miazga more last season than this one)


----------



## Basement Cat

bleedblue1223 said:


> They can make a push by proving themselves on their clubs. Our younger generation simply isn't good enough right now. Spots on the national team can't just be given out to young players just because we want them to push through.




We dont have any players that could push Orozco, Beckermna, and Wondo out of their spots on the roster? Seriously???


----------



## bluesfan94

chasespace said:


> I'd say Gooch and Miazga have earned call ups with their club play(Miazga more last season than this one)




I would say CCV has, too, given that he's making the bench in the EPL


----------



## Fro

Basement Cat said:


> We dont have any players that could push Orozco, Beckermna, and Wondo out of their spots on the roster? Seriously???




sad...Wil Trapp hopefully will be there one day...but he's been struggling with the Crew (which as a team has struggled)


----------



## kingsboy11

Guzan starts against St. Vincent and Howard starts against T&T


----------



## Basement Cat

Fro said:


> sad...Wil Trapp hopefully will be there one day...but he's been struggling with the Crew (which as a team has struggled)




That was kind of a rhetorical question. No doubt we have the CBs, CDMs, and STs necessary to displace those guys. They should be way down on the depth chart at this stage, but JK wants to have their babies.


----------



## bluesfan94

Basement Cat said:


> That was kind of a rhetorical question. No doubt we have the CBs, CDMs, and STs necessary to displace those guys. They should be way down on the depth chart at this stage, but JK wants to have their babies.




Especially for games against St. Vincent and T&T. There's no reason Miazga couldn't play. There's no reason Trapp couldn't play. Or Hyndman. Or Gooch. Or Kiesewetter. Or Shelton. They don't have to start. But you don't need to be calling up Orozco, Beckerman, and Wondolowski. Hell, Horvath could start a game.


----------



## Savant

Guzan, Acosta, Yedlin, Cameron, Besler, Johnson, Beckerman, Bedoya, Zusi, Wood, Altidore. 

Looks like a 4-4-2. Nothing too fancy.


----------



## Ugmo

bluesfan94 said:


> Especially for games against St. Vincent and T&T. There's no reason Miazga couldn't play. There's no reason Trapp couldn't play. Or Hyndman. Or *Gooch*. Or Kiesewetter. Or Shelton. They don't have to start. But you don't need to be calling up Orozco, Beckerman, and Wondolowski. Hell, Horvath could start a game.




I had to google this to make sure you weren't talking about Onyewu.


----------

