# ECHL absorbs CHL, 7 teams to join ECHL for 2014-15 season



## Agalloch

It's done !

http://centralhockeyleague.com/news/?article_id=11233



> ECHL Accepts Seven New Members
> League expands to 28 teams for 2014-15 season
> 
> CHICAGO – The ECHL announced on Tuesday that the League’s Board of Governors has approved the Membership applications of the Allen Americans, Brampton Beast, Missouri Mavericks, Quad City Mallards, Rapid City Rush, Tulsa Oilers and Wichita Thunder for admission to the ECHL.


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## LadyStanley

http://echl.com/echl-accepts-seven-new-members-p194005

ECHL story


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## No Fun Shogun

The move towards a true 1:1:1 affiliation system is one step closer to reality.


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## Agalloch

Is there a map with all the new 28 teams on it ?


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## JDogindy

Agalloch said:


> Is there a map with all the new 28 teams on it ?




Not yet, but there should be in a few days. If all seven survive to next year, they should prosper. I'm interested in Indy/Wichita since that was my first-ever hockey game.

Even if the ECHL loses California, the SI report stated they would get a foothold in the East Coast again.

I'm just glad its over.


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## JackalsKnuckles

JDogindy said:


> Not yet, but there should be in a few days. If all seven survive to next year, they should prosper. I'm interested in Indy/Wichita since that was my first-ever hockey game.
> 
> Even if the ECHL loses California, the SI report stated they would get a foothold in the East Coast again.
> 
> I'm just glad its over.




I wouldn't be so sure the new teams will prosper. The teams who made the jump from the UHL to the ECHL, as in Kalamazoo, Elmira, and Fort Wayne have all seen attendance declines once the "newness" of the ECHL product has worn off.


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## Mightygoose

Glad ot hear it's done and hopefully this will lead to some stability in the AA level. The re schedule for this season is tight but might as well get it done.

Any thoughts after this season if this merged league will get re named?


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## MiamiHockey

Mightygoose said:


> Glad ot hear it's done and hopefully this will lead to some stability in the AA level. The re schedule for this season is tight but might as well get it done.
> 
> Any thoughts after this season if this merged league wil get re named?




The ECHL has a strong brand, and is well-established as the AA league in hockey. I'd be stunned if the ownership altered the league name in any way.


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## EON

time to sack the CHL and get a stronger ECHL together. I think a true, stable 1:1:1 affiliation will be great for hockey. It works extremely well for baseball.


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## No Fun Shogun

Regardless of how this turns out, just hope it opens the door for Peoria to jump up from the SPHL.


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## Stitch11

CHL teams will add 6 more games to get to 72 with some combination(3 home 3 away- 4 home 2away)with existing ECHL teams.


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## Sports Enthusiast

MiamiHockey said:


> The ECHL has a strong brand, and is well-established as the AA league in hockey. I'd be stunned if the ownership altered the league name in any way.




When the West teams go AHL it makes no sense not to re-name it back to the East Coast Hockey League. Other people in the hockey world still call it that...even Doc Emerick.


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## Sports Enthusiast

ErieOttersNews said:


> time to sack the CHL and get a stronger ECHL together. I think a true, stable 1:1:1 affiliation will be great for hockey. It works extremely well for baseball.




Adding more teams doesn't make your league stronger.vthey had issues with this a few years back. Lol at Quad City though. They have had like 4 owners in 5 years and aren't stable in anyway.


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## Sports Enthusiast

JackalsKnuckles said:


> I wouldn't be so sure the new teams will prosper. The teams who made the jump from the UHL to the ECHL, as in Kalamazoo, Elmira, and Fort Wayne have all seen attendance declines once the "newness" of the ECHL product has worn off.




I know for me the product has gotten boring. We have never in 7 years had a guy who became an NHL regular. They way over sell this. This isn't baseball where everyone plays minor league ball. Lots of continuity lacked. I don't care what guys do after Elmira and they all have dreams beyond Elmira.


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## Taro Tsujimoto

Interesting issue here: Dallas, Minnesota, and Tampa Bay had affiliates in the CHL (Allen, Quad City, and Brampton, respectively) as well as in the ECHL (Idaho, Alaska, and Florida, respectively). Surely they won't be allowed to have two affiliates each...


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## Hoodaha

Taro Tsujimoto said:


> Interesting issue here: Dallas, Minnesota, and Tampa Bay had affiliates in the CHL (Allen, Quad City, and Brampton, respectively) as well as in the ECHL (Idaho, Alaska, and Florida, respectively). Surely they won't be allowed to have two affiliates each...




There's no rule against it. It's happened before in the ECHL. Just means each of the affiliates will only get a few players.


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## speedrissr

Here's a map, will need tweaked if teams change divisions, although I expect the CHL to be its own division this year.

https://www.google.com/maps/ms?msid=218391698907303240366.0004b6ea9ee3863136346&msa=0&dg=feature

Al?

RLR


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## JungleJON

I find it funny that NONE of the posters who said that the merger will NEVER HAPPEN have posted anything yet.


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## PointyElbows

SenorChifles said:


> I find it funny that NONE of the posters who said that the merger will NEVER HAPPEN have posted anything yet.




I suppose they didn't want to rub anyone's nose in it. After all the announcement is specific that it is not a merger: The ECHL announced on Tuesday that the Leagueâ€™s Board of Governors has approved the Membership applications of the Allen Americans, Brampton Beast, Missouri Mavericks, Quad City Mallards, Rapid City Rush, Tulsa Oilers and Wichita Thunder for admission to the ECHL.


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## mk80

The CHL is finally dead. Will be interesting to see how former CHL franchises do come playoff time. However looking at recent signings for the CHL franchises the last few weeks have brought in more ECHL caliber players.

Also here's what this absorption is like to me lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRvAAYjmqkE&feature=player_detailpage


Also since this isn't a merger, that would mean CHL officials are out of a job or does the ECHL take them in as well?


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## Hoodaha

PointyElbows said:


> I suppose they didn't want to rub anyone's nose in it. After all the announcement is specific that it is not a merger: The ECHL announced on Tuesday that the Leagueâ€™s Board of Governors has approved the Membership applications of the Allen Americans, Brampton Beast, Missouri Mavericks, Quad City Mallards, Rapid City Rush, Tulsa Oilers and Wichita Thunder for admission to the ECHL.




It's not a merger on paper, but fundamentally it is a merger. Much like when the WCHL joined the ECHL a few years back. I guarantee you that entry fees were either vastly reduced or waived.


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## mk80

A tweet from Mike McKenna today. I wonder if anything changes as far who the the CHL teams had signed. 

https://twitter.com/MikeMcKenna56

According to him, any players signed with CHL for the upcoming season are unrestricted free agents now and can sign with anywhere.


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## ripham23232

Taro Tsujimoto said:


> Interesting issue here: Dallas, Minnesota, and Tampa Bay had affiliates in the CHL (Allen, Quad City, and Brampton, respectively) as well as in the ECHL (Idaho, Alaska, and Florida, respectively). Surely they won't be allowed to have two affiliates each...




Just for clarification, the Stars haven't been affiliated with the Allen Americans for a couple seasons now. Allen and the CHL just never removed that from there websites, info, etc.


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## Clinton Comets EHL

JackalsKnuckles said:


> I wouldn't be so sure the new teams will prosper. The teams who made the jump from the UHL to the ECHL, as in Kalamazoo, Elmira, and Fort Wayne have all seen attendance declines once the "newness" of the ECHL product has worn off.




Agreed. Not just the newness wore off, the boring non entertaining hockey did. In an ideal world, the UHL was fantastic for geographic rivalries and intensity.



SFTC Addict said:


> When the West teams go AHL it makes no sense not to re-name it back to the East Coast Hockey League. Other people in the hockey world still call it that...even Doc Emerick.




When?



ErieOttersNews said:


> time to sack the CHL and get a stronger ECHL together. I think a true, stable 1:1:1 affiliation will be great for hockey. It works extremely well for baseball.




The NHL has no interest in the ECHL as a AA style development league. Baseball has many more players under contract.


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## MiamiHockey

6768clintoncomets575 said:


> The NHL has no interest in the ECHL as a AA style development league. Baseball has many more players under contract.




Really. And yet the ECHL is recognized in the NHL CBA, meaning that a player signed to an NHL (Entry-Level) Contract can only be assigned to a team in the AHL or ECHL. Yet the NHL has "no interest" in the ECHL as a developmental league?

It is true that, as compared to baseball, NHL players are much less likely to have played AA - the development of players in baseball is very different than it is in hockey. But, 14 NHL teams own their AHL franchises ... and those franchises rely upon ECHL affiliates to develop players for the AHL, and also rely on their ECHL affiliates to provide players for recall throughout the season.

So, it's a bit ridiculous to suggest that the NHL has "no interest" in the ECHL. They have a great deal of interest.


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## hoodle

6768clintoncomets575 said:


> Agreed. Not just the newness wore off, the boring non entertaining hockey did. In an ideal world, the UHL was fantastic for geographic rivalries and intensity.





Ok ... This is getting a little old with your distain for the E, .... Why do you see it as boring and non entertaining, and don't just give "because it is" Please give reasons you say that so we can have a discussion, or go back to the AHL room where you think it is soooo much better.


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## StingraysFan

Agalloch said:


> Is there a map with all the new 28 teams on it ?


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## JackalsKnuckles

MiamiHockey said:


> Really. And yet the ECHL is recognized in the NHL CBA, meaning that a player signed to an NHL (Entry-Level) Contract can only be assigned to a team in the AHL or ECHL. Yet the NHL has "no interest" in the ECHL as a developmental league?
> 
> It is true that, as compared to baseball, NHL players are much less likely to have played AA - the development of players in baseball is very different than it is in hockey. But, 14 NHL teams own their AHL franchises ... and those franchises rely upon ECHL affiliates to develop players for the AHL, and also rely on their ECHL affiliates to provide players for recall throughout the season.
> 
> So, it's a bit ridiculous to suggest that the NHL has "no interest" in the ECHL. They have a great deal of interest.





No NHL team plans to start a guy out in the ECHL who they think has a legit shot to be in the NHL anytime soon. Not to say that players won't work their way up, but the plan is rare that guys start here on purpose with high expectations from the NHL club. Furthermore the NHL team has zero interest in whether the fans in the ECHL city have a competitive or entertaining team.


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## hoodle

JackalsKnuckles said:


> No NHL team plans to start a guy out in the ECHL who they think has a legit shot to be in the NHL anytime soon. Not to say that players won't work their way up, but the plan is rare that guys start here on purpose with high expectations from the NHL club. Furthermore the NHL team has zero interest in whether the fans in the ECHL city have a competitive or entertaining team.




While most skaters may not start in the E, more goaltenders will...The Walleye have had many high draft pick goalie who have made their way to the top.... As for the zero interst..not here. Lots of intrrest and visits from both the Red Wings and Blackhawk brass..... So there is interest here from the NHL franchise in putting a competitive team here


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## Sports Enthusiast

MiamiHockey said:


> Really. And yet the ECHL is recognized in the NHL CBA, meaning that a player signed to an NHL (Entry-Level) Contract can only be assigned to a team in the AHL or ECHL. Yet the NHL has "no interest" in the ECHL as a developmental league?
> 
> It is true that, as compared to baseball, NHL players are much less likely to have played AA - the development of players in baseball is very different than it is in hockey. But, 14 NHL teams own their AHL franchises ... and those franchises rely upon ECHL affiliates to develop players for the AHL, and also rely on their ECHL affiliates to provide players for recall throughout the season.
> 
> So, it's a bit ridiculous to suggest that the NHL has "no interest" in the ECHL. They have a great deal of interest.




Lol...the ECHL values every guy who plays a game in the NHL. That number would be way less if they only counted guys who played a full season or ended up staying up for the rest of their careers once they got there. They also shouldn't count guys who didn't play a full ECHL season and were just there due to a roster jam on their other teams within an affiliation trio.


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## Sports Enthusiast

hoodle said:


> Ok ... This is getting a little old with your distain for the E, .... Why do you see it as boring and non entertaining, and don't just give "because it is" Please give reasons you say that so we can have a discussion, or go back to the AHL room where you think it is soooo much better.




Those who didn't see the UHL won't understand unless they saw the ECHL before the 2000s. The UHL was a veteran maiden league and cores of teams stayed intact for a few years. This created rivalries which made it more exciting. Guys played more for their team than themselves. In the E they have sold them this stupid notion of an NHL future in their cards. It takes the passion out of It. Guys are just into padding their state and stuff. The intensity lacks among other things.


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## Hoodaha

hoodle said:


> While most skaters may not start in the E, more goaltenders will...The Walleye have had many high draft pick goalie who have made their way to the top.... As for the zero interst..not here. Lots of intrrest and visits from both the Red Wings and Blackhawk brass..... So there is interest here from the NHL franchise in putting a competitive team here




Yep, while the NHL may not really put many skaters in the ECHL that they expect to develop, it's great for goalies. Would you rather have a netminding prospect see lots of time, or sit on the bench as a backup in the AHL? Last year, the Oilers put Laurent Brossoit, their top goaltending prospect, in the ECHL for exactly that reason. They put worse goalies in the backup role in OKC.


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## hoodle

SFTC Addict said:


> Those who didn't see the UHL won't understand unless they saw the ECHL before the 2000s. The UHL was a veteran maiden league and cores of teams stayed intact for a few years. This created rivalries which made it more exciting. Guys played more for their team than themselves. In the E they have sold them this stupid notion of an NHL future in their cards. It takes the passion out of It. Guys are just into padding their state and stuff. The intensity lacks among other things.




I remember the pre-2000 E and I will go back to the old 70's IHL but the general principle is the same. The players in those leagues, or 90% of them, were as far as they could go in their careers. .Now its the exact opposite with 90% hoping they go higher I have talked to numerous former 90's ECHL players who say the talent and the game is so much better than before. Personally, I love seeing talented players and that not boring, and very entertaining. Now it's a different passion, that's all.. Now if you're(using the general you're) into over physical goon hockey you are going to be sadly disappointed in all levels because its going that way. I tell those who complain about it there's the door don't let it hit you on the way out because it's not going to go back


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## Sports Enthusiast

hoodle said:


> I remember the pre-2000 E and I will go back to the old 70's IHL but the general principle is the same. The players in those leagues, or 90% of them, were as far as they could go in their careers. .Now its the exact opposite with 90% hoping they go higher I have talked to numerous former 90's ECHL players who say the talent and the game is so much better than before. Personally, I love seeing talented players and that not boring, and very entertaining. Now it's a different passion, that's all.. Now if you're(using the general you're) into over physical goon hockey you are going to be sadly disappointed in all levels because its going that way. I tell those who complain about it there's the door don't let it hit you on the way out because it's not going to go back




I don't care about the goonery. I hated that but I loved the intensity and hate teams had for each other. Now its a bunch of Johnny Manziel's on skates who have this notion either self imposed or created by someone else that they are better then they really are.


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## Clinton Comets EHL

hoodle said:


> Agreed. Not just the newness wore off, the boring non entertaining hockey did. In an ideal world, the UHL was fantastic for geographic rivalries and intensity.
> 
> 
> Ok ... This is getting a little old with your distain for the E, .... Why do you see it as boring and non entertaining, and don't just give "because it is" Please give reasons you say that so we can have a discussion, or go back to the AHL room where you think it is soooo much better.




SFTC said it best: "Those who didn't see the UHL won't understand unless they saw the ECHL before the 2000s. The UHL was a veteran maiden league and cores of teams stayed intact for a few years. This created rivalries which made it more exciting. Guys played more for their team than themselves. In the E they have sold them this stupid notion of an NHL future in their cards. It takes the passion out of It. Guys are just into padding their state and stuff. The intensity lacks among other things."

The NHL does not care if the team wins and / or is entertaining. They may be interested in the 3 players they have the rights to and own but nothing else. Also, if they need them, they will pull them up and out so quickly your head will spin.....with no regards to replacing them. 

Watch an ECHL game. I'm glad cities and fans in those cities have teams....if they had seen the UHL they would think differently. D3 college hockey is about the same.



hoodle said:


> While most skaters may not start in the E, more goaltenders will...The Walleye have had many high draft pick goalie who have made their way to the top.... As for the zero interst..not here. Lots of intrrest and visits from both the Red Wings and Blackhawk brass..... So there is interest here from the NHL franchise in putting a competitive team here




I hope you are right and I am wrong Hoodle. Don't know if you were around for the Goaldiggers. Wish Toledo could have been in UHL with Flint, the Fury, Quad Cities....teams kept players and that rivalry would have been intense.

As a fan who has seen many bad teams during many years, all I am saying is I would rather be entertained than watch boring games.

Know last year was a rough year for Toledo, wish the Wings and Hawks would have cared more.



hoodle said:


> I remember the pre-2000 E and I will go back to the old 70's IHL but the general principle is the same. The players in those leagues, or 90% of them, were as far as they could go in their careers. .Now its the exact opposite with 90% hoping they go higher I have talked to numerous former 90's ECHL players who say the talent and the game is so much better than before. Personally, I love seeing talented players and that not boring, and very entertaining. Now it's a different passion, that's all.. Now if you're(using the general you're) into over physical goon hockey you are going to be sadly disappointed in all levels because its going that way. I tell those who complain about it there's the door don't let it hit you on the way out because it's not going to go back





Couldn't care less about goons and or thugs or even 1:1 fighting. Loved the intensity. Know things aren't going back. Hope things go forward. I'm just not seeing it in the ECHL. Talented players do not equate to entertaining, i.e., Jersey Devils trap.



SFTC Addict said:


> I don't care about the goonery. I hated that but I loved the intensity and hate teams had for each other. Now its a bunch of Johnny Manziel's on skates who have this notion either self imposed or created by someone else that they are better then they really are.




exactly.


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## JackalsKnuckles

6768clintoncomets575 said:


> Couldn't care less about goons and or thugs or even 1:1 fighting. Loved the intensity. Know things aren't going back. Hope things go forward. I'm just not seeing it in the ECHL. *Talented players do not equate to entertaining,* i.e., Jersey Devils trap.







Most true statement I've read in a long time. I've seen more entertaining Junior A (LHJQ) games during one weekend in Quebec a month ago than the 35 games I went to in Elmira last season. Then you get leagues like the Q and that is amazing. You don't need prospects or big names, you just need teams built to win and play together and a sense of rivalries and dislike between the teams.


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## mfrerkes

It's nice to see Quad City finally made it to The E. Back in 2005, we were supposed to making the jump from a then-crumbling UHL...but some legal shenanigans prevented the move. A couple years later, we were then led into the AHL by an unprepared group of owners, and that began a cycle of great instability which nearly the killed the sport here.

I believe the ECHL was always QC's best shot at maintaining some stability in the AA ranks. The CHL, on the other hand, was only going to keep us in that downward spiral which began in the UHL and continued through our brief time in the IHL. For those keeping track at home, this is the Mallards *fifth* league change since 2007.

I hope it is our last.


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## Loosie

This will help Brampton with their travel issues as they now have closer teams than they did in the CHL.

It would be interesting if the ECHL can get two more team to have a true 1:1:1 partnership. I could see the Leafs trying to move from Orlando to Brampton.


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## MiamiHockey

Loosie said:


> This will help Brampton with their travel issues as they now have closer teams than they did in the CHL.
> 
> It would be interesting if the ECHL can get two more team to have a true 1:1:1 partnership. I could see the Leafs trying to move from Orlando to Brampton.




It will be really interesting to see how this affects Brampton.

The trouble with Brampton (and Mississauga, for that matter) is that it is not really a separate city - it's just a suburban area within the GTA - and so people don't identify with Brampton so much as they identify with Toronto. And, of course, the GTA lives and breathes the Maple Leafs.

If Mr. Rosen is able to secure the Leafs affiliation, I believe that this will make Brampton a very successful ECHL franchise. But, without that affiliation, success will not come easily.


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## JDogindy

JackalsKnuckles said:


> I wouldn't be so sure the new teams will prosper. The teams who made the jump from the UHL to the ECHL, as in Kalamazoo, Elmira, and Fort Wayne have all seen attendance declines once the "newness" of the ECHL product has worn off.




You gotta realize in Kalamazoo & Fort Wayne's cases, it's largely because they liked being at the top of the UHL, and both the lack of a Danbury Trashers group of a-holes coming in a few times and not being a big fish in a small pond resulted in some fickle fans not caring. Most sports fans know some "fans" will only support you when you win.

As for Elmira, they worked a whole lot more in the UHL due to a proximity of teams. There aren't as many they had in the ECHL, so it's harder for fans to care, even if you have Reading (or Brampton). But if the ECHL gets a few New England teams if the AHL West idea enters Phase Two, Elmira might bounce back if the fans have more incentive to care about regional rivalries. And, having Buffalo as your affiliate helps.

Looking forward to the official ECHL map swelling.


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## Nightsquad

6768clintoncomets575 said:


> SFTC said it best: "Those who didn't see the UHL won't understand unless they saw the ECHL before the 2000s. The UHL was a veteran maiden league and cores of teams stayed intact for a few years. This created rivalries which made it more exciting. Guys played more for their team than themselves. In the E they have sold them this stupid notion of an NHL future in their cards. It takes the passion out of It. Guys are just into padding their state and stuff. The intensity lacks among other things."
> 
> The NHL does not care if the team wins and / or is entertaining. They may be interested in the 3 players they have the rights to and own but nothing else. Also, if they need them, they will pull them up and out so quickly your head will spin.....with no regards to replacing them.
> 
> Watch an ECHL game. I'm glad cities and fans in those cities have teams....if they had seen the UHL they would think differently. D3 college hockey is about the same.






I hope you are right and I am wrong Hoodle. Don't know if you were around for the Goaldiggers. Wish Toledo could have been in UHL with Flint, the Fury, Quad Cities....teams kept players and that rivalry would have been intense.

As a fan who has seen many bad teams during many years, all I am saying is I would rather be entertained than watch boring games.

Know last year was a rough year for Toledo, wish the Wings and Hawks would have cared more.



hoodle said:


> Couldn't care less about goons and or thugs or even 1:1 fighting. Loved the intensity. Know things aren't going back. Hope things go forward. I'm just not seeing it in the ECHL. Talented players do not equate to entertaining, i.e., Jersey Devils trap.
> 
> exactly.




I have seen NCAA DI and III, the old Colonial League (Blizzard, Bulldogs), UHL (Adirondack, Danbury, Elmira, and MV Prowlers), ECHL (Elmira, Reading, Atlantic City), AHL (numerous), and NHL (Rangers, Bruins, Sabres, Capitals, Flyers, Devils).
I have to really disagree that today's ECHL is not an important part of the developmental chain, and that ECHL quality of product is like that of DIII hockey. A good solid strong ECHL team can stay with and play a competitve game against a lower rung AHL team, I have no doubt. I am not syaing they will beat them, but the AHL team will have their hands full. I gotta laugh when small older AHL markets like Utica or Glens Falls say no thanks to investors who want to bring in ECHL teams. The ECHL is not the AHL of course, but it is better and much more professional and organized then the old Colonial League, the UHL (which fell to corruption then absorbtion just to survive), and now we bare witness that the ECHL still survives and grows as another league falls. I will say this again, if your city has been left without an AHL team and you say you love your minor league hockey, to put your nose in the air at the ECHL just makes little sense.


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## Hoodaha

Loosie said:


> This will help Brampton with their travel issues as they now have closer teams than they did in the CHL.
> 
> It would be interesting if the ECHL can get two more team to have a true 1:1:1 partnership. I could see the Leafs trying to move from Orlando to Brampton.




The 1:1:1 partnership could be further away than some think though, with the AHL possibly moving West, the ECHL could lose several Western teams.


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## Sports Enthusiast

Honestly I think DI hockey is underrated. D3 is horrible....it is about the ECHL but amateurs. None of those guys are going anywhere. I'm not sure the difference. The only difference is juniors can get you to the league faster and the kids who don't like school enjoy that aspect.


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## DarkKnight27

Here is a map the Nailers tweeted out.


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## LadyStanley

mk80 said:


> Also since this isn't a merger, that would mean CHL officials are out of a job or does the ECHL take them in as well?




I'd guess they'd be offered jobs, but haven't seen anything specific.


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## Clinton Comets EHL

JDogindy said:


> You gotta realize in Kalamazoo & Fort Wayne's cases, it's largely because they liked being at the top of the UHL, and both the lack of a Danbury Trashers group of a-holes coming in a few times and not being a big fish in a small pond resulted in some fickle fans not caring. Most sports fans know some "fans" will only support you when you win.
> 
> As for Elmira, they worked a whole lot more in the UHL due to a proximity of teams. There aren't as many they had in the ECHL, so it's harder for fans to care, even if you have Reading (or Brampton). But if the ECHL gets a few New England teams if the AHL West idea enters Phase Two, Elmira might bounce back if the fans have more incentive to care about regional rivalries. And, having Buffalo as your affiliate helps.
> 
> Looking forward to the official ECHL map swelling.




I don't believe the ECHL will ever thrive in New England.


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## Sports Enthusiast

TheEdge27 said:


> Here is a map the Nailers tweeted out.




Would never expect Wheeling to be ahead of the game on anything.


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## battfan888

Interesting tidbit about the schedule.
Brampton's CHL schedule opener was set to be on Friday, October 24th vs Missouri but I got an email from the Beast (since they continue to ask me to get season tickets). In the email they now say the opener is still set for the same day of October 24th but now it's against Toledo. Makes me wonder if they are actually doing the whole schedule revamp as opposed to just adding 6 games to the CHL teams schedules.


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## mfrerkes

battfan888 said:


> IMakes me wonder if they are actually doing the whole schedule revamp as opposed to just adding 6 games to the CHL teams schedules.




I think they'll have to massively revamp in the case of some teams like Brampton, and maybe even Rapid City. The entire purpose of this arrangement was to make AA hockey more sustainable for everyone involved. Travel costs are a huge part of that equation, so redoing the schedule for those CHL teams who were more geographically isolated before this week's announcement only makes sense.

Some teams will see more "schedule edits" than others. Alaska, for example, will probably be least affected by this situation, whereas Quad City or Brampton could see more changes due to their closer proximity to additional teams.


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## Gibbie42

Word that we've all been getting is that there will be minor changes to the schedule but not a total revamp. The former CHL teams have to add six games to their schedule but they'll most likely be against each other. We've been told in Evansville that our dates will stay the same but that some opponents may change. Our owner is also talking about swapping out a road trip that was to be to Elmira and Reading for one that will be Missouri and Wichita. QC may come for a visit in February. Some of the western teams are stating their schedules won't change at all. 

So very very minor changes this season, you'll see full integration next.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Think they wanna see who can hqck it first. I don't see all 7 teams lasting for 2015-2016


----------



## battfan888

The Beast are currently having a Q&A on their twitter feed and they mentioned now that they will be hosting Wheeling on December 7th. That's a day that they were supposed to be at home to Wichita so as I said perhaps for some teams closer to the main bunch of ECHL teams the schedule is going to see some big changes. It's not that they are facing these teams it's that they are swapping dates as I mentioned above.


----------



## JungleJON

I can see them switching teams, but probably not many dates. It would be nice to see Quad Cities face Ft. Wayne and Allen and Colorado meet for a game. Hopefully everyone survives until next season and then you will see a more balanced schedule.

You might see Peoria try to come back into the ECHL, don't know if they can find another suitable arena for the team in Vegas. One city I would love for them to get their team back is Bossier-Shreveport - love those Mudbugs.


----------



## Timl2009

I can see Youngstown as a possibility in a couple years maybe. The biggest reason they failed was the travel west..Here you're right in the middle of Toledo, Cincinnati and Wheeling for starters..And not too far from Reading and points in Michigan and Indiana..Perfect fit for an owner who wants to take a chance..


----------



## LadyStanley

http://www.echl.com/echl-announces-revisions-to-divisional-alignment-and-playoff-format-p194048

New division alignment and playoff format announced


----------



## mk80

I think that it won't be long until Peoria moves back into the league especially with the addition of the CHL teams they aren't on an island anymore as much. I think they are poised to join the Western conference. An I would love to see the Mudbugs return but unfortunately I don't see it happening anytime soon.


----------



## DarkKnight27

SFTC Addict said:


> Would never expect Wheeling to be ahead of the game on anything.




Haha actually they have a very active twitter. Always retweeting the fans and stuff, always promoting radio appearances and alumni information. The organization tries, its just in a bad market....


----------



## PSGJ

Does anyone think we will see in increase in the 50 contract limit for NHL teams? I think they would need to increase that number if the ECHL is going to be a true development league and not just a league with a sprinkling of NHL contracted players.


----------



## Hoodaha

PSGJ said:


> Does anyone think we will see in increase in the 50 contract limit for NHL teams? I think they would need to increase that number if the ECHL is going to be a true development league and not just a league with a sprinkling of NHL contracted players.




I think the ECHL wants to be a true developmental league. It is yet to be seen if the NHL really wants that.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

Hoodaha said:


> I think the ECHL wants to be a true developmental league. It is yet to be seen if the NHL really wants that.




They don't. They just want a place to stash remaining bodies.


----------



## MiamiHockey

Hoodaha said:


> I think the ECHL wants to be a true developmental league. It is yet to be seen if the NHL really wants that.




NHL teams that own their AHL affiliates are becoming more aware of the importance / value of having a strong ECHL affiliate. Yes, the AHL team's primary value is the development of young players for the NHL, but when injuries hit and players get called up to the NHL, it's also important to have players in place that can fit in and maintain the AHL team's success. That is more important to an NHL team that owns its AHL affiliate (and thus wants profitability) than for a team that is merely affiliated with an AHL franchise.

And, occasionally, a guy like Mark Arcobello or Alex Burrows will work his way from the ECHL to the NHL.


----------



## JackalsKnuckles

MiamiHockey said:


> NHL teams that own their AHL affiliates are becoming more aware of the importance / value of having a strong ECHL affiliate. Yes, the AHL team's primary value is the development of young players for the NHL, but when injuries hit and players get called up to the NHL, it's also important to have players in place that can fit in and maintain the AHL team's success. That is more important to an NHL team that owns its AHL affiliate (and thus wants profitability) than for a team that is merely affiliated with an AHL franchise.
> 
> And, occasionally, a guy like Mark Arcobello or Alex Burrows will work his way from the ECHL to the NHL.




I guess I just don't see how this benefits fans in ECHL cities. The whole model is set up to benefit everyone except the actual ECHL team (although I understand they don't get a big salary cap hit with AHL contracted players). 

Essentially if you are a fan in an ECHL city the message is "don't build a roster to win because AHL teams will take your guys when they need them. The AHL club will also send you guys that are under contract but can't perform and don't want to be in the ECHL either". In Elmira many of the AHL contracted guys were much worse performers than the guys on ECHL deals, but coaches were pressured to play the AHL guys to "develop them" thus taking away ice time from guys who could help the team win. 

Why a fan would want this over a more stable independent league team with more vets, less roster turnover, and the opportunity for the coaching staff to try to build a team to win is beyond me.


----------



## MiamiHockey

JackalsKnuckles said:


> I guess I just don't see how this benefits fans in ECHL cities. The whole model is set up to benefit everyone except the actual ECHL team (although I understand they don't get a big salary cap hit with AHL contracted players).
> 
> Essentially if you are a fan in an ECHL city the message is "don't build a roster to win because AHL teams will take your guys when they need them. The AHL club will also send you guys that are under contract but can't perform and don't want to be in the ECHL either". In Elmira many of the AHL contracted guys were much worse performers than the guys on ECHL deals, but coaches were pressured to play the AHL guys to "develop them" thus taking away ice time from guys who could help the team win.
> 
> Why a fan would want this over a more stable independent league team with more vets, less roster turnover, and the opportunity for the coaching staff to try to build a team to win is beyond me.




I never argued it was for the fans. But, consider how (un)successful the other models have been. The UHL and CHL (and, once upon a time, the IHL) have operated without NHL support, and all three have folded. Becoming a developmental league for the NHL means that the ECHL will be more stable financially. There may be more turnover of players from year to year, but how can that be worse than having teams / leagues fold?


----------



## JackalsKnuckles

MiamiHockey said:


> I never argued it was for the fans. But, consider how (un)successful the other models have been. The UHL and CHL (and, once upon a time, the IHL) have operated without NHL support, and all three have folded. Becoming a developmental league for the NHL means that the ECHL will be more stable financially. There may be more turnover of players from year to year, but how can that be worse than having teams / leagues fold?




Certainly valid points. Although the hockey culture is way different in Canada thant the states it does seem that they have it figured out with the junior model. From the 60 Major Junior teams to the 100 some Junior A teams and even Junior B the hockey is entertaining and at all 3 levels the teams are there to win, although some callups occur. The product is cetainly entertaining, rivalries intense, and hockey filled with emotion. 

The lower operating costs also allow smaller markets to have a chance at success as well.


----------



## Hoodaha

JackalsKnuckles said:


> I guess I just don't see how this benefits fans in ECHL cities. The whole model is set up to benefit everyone except the actual ECHL team (although I understand they don't get a big salary cap hit with AHL contracted players).
> 
> Essentially if you are a fan in an ECHL city the message is "don't build a roster to win because AHL teams will take your guys when they need them. The AHL club will also send you guys that are under contract but can't perform and don't want to be in the ECHL either". In Elmira many of the AHL contracted guys were much worse performers than the guys on ECHL deals, but coaches were pressured to play the AHL guys to "develop them" thus taking away ice time from guys who could help the team win.
> 
> Why a fan would want this over a more stable independent league team with more vets, less roster turnover, and the opportunity for the coaching staff to try to build a team to win is beyond me.




The big benefit is the cap break on players. ECHL teams pay the NHL team to be able to get this cap break. These are made up numbers, but a $1,000/week player is a $750/week player against the cap if they have an AHL contract.

The other benefits are soft. Being able to associate your team's name with that of an NHL team is good for marketing and lends an air of legitimacy. 

Occasionally, the affiliation is a very good thing for the ECHL team. If the AHL team doesn't make the playoffs, the ECHL team inherits a bunch of AHL guys for their playoff run. Really, you want to be affiliated with an AHL team close to the playoffs, but not good enough to make the playoffs. It's a bit of a tight rope to walk.


----------



## hkymnky

Hoodaha said:


> The 1:1:1 partnership could be further away than some think though, with the AHL possibly moving West, the ECHL could lose several Western teams.




Apologies for jumping to an older post but I've been busy...

While the ECHL is likely to lose some valuable markets with the (increasingly likely) westward movement of the AHL, the thing to keep in mind is that the franchises in those markets is unlikely to disappear completely.

Ontario, Bakersfield (and potentially Stockton) are owned by NHL clubs. Even if they move their AHL teams to those markets they will still own ECHL franchises. While its possible that they will just fold their ECHL assets that seems like a huge waste. Instead I suspect that they will move those franchises to other markets. While the conventional wisdom seems to be that the NHL teams will just swap markets (ECHL to Manchester, Worcester, etc.), I suspect that western teams will want to keep their entire development system on the west coast. This isn't to say that the ECHL wont make a foray into the New England...I just don't think LA, Worcester, Edmonton (or any of the other Pacific Division teams) are going to be the ones leading the charge.

Meanwhile...for all the folks talking about the lack of passion/intensity/rivalries in the ECHL, my advice is to find your local junior, high school, or college club team and support them. The quality of the hockey may be far from professional, but I can tell you from personal experience that kids who are playing for the joy of the game are going to play with more heart than just about anyone.


----------



## Clinton Comets EHL

MiamiHockey said:


> Really. And yet the ECHL is recognized in the NHL CBA, meaning that a player signed to an NHL (Entry-Level) Contract can only be assigned to a team in the AHL or ECHL. Yet the NHL has "no interest" in the ECHL as a developmental league?
> 
> It is true that, as compared to baseball, NHL players are much less likely to have played AA - the development of players in baseball is very different than it is in hockey. But, 14 NHL teams own their AHL franchises ... and those franchises rely upon ECHL affiliates to develop players for the AHL, and also rely on their ECHL affiliates to provide players for recall throughout the season.
> 
> So, it's a bit ridiculous to suggest that the NHL has "no interest" in the ECHL. They have a great deal of interest.




Got me, "no interest" may be a stretch. Conversely, to say they have "a great deal of interest" seems equally a bit ridiculous.

Contrary to what people think about my remarks on here, I like the ECHL. Just not the entertainment value. The hockey I have seen in the league is just not entertaining. I'm sure this is because it is a development league, where the old IHL, CoHL/UHL/IHL2 was not.

As another poster that is knowledgeable stated, this isn't baseball. I have my doubts that the 30/30/30 concept would work.

Also, there are cities that I don't think the ECHL would work. New England especially.

The NHL will eventually get its way and have AHL teams in the west, I guess. Maybe they'll start their own league. I don't know. Nobody does.



Hoodaha said:


> I think the ECHL wants to be a true developmental league. It is yet to be seen if the NHL really wants that.




You may be right on this. Although I agree they really just want a place to stash non AHL players. I don't think they want to stock 21-24 AA players. This isn't baseball, not sure if it ever will be.

Understand your statement, though.



SFTC Addict said:


> They don't. They just want a place to stash remaining bodies.



Agree.

This is where the interest level from the NHL lies.



PSGJ said:


> Does anyone think we will see in increase in the 50 contract limit for NHL teams? I think they would need to increase that number if the ECHL is going to be a true development league and not just a league with a sprinkling of NHL contracted players.





This is the 1000 pound gorilla in the room.

Why would they, juniors and overseas built in farm system.

To answer your question, I don't think so.



JackalsKnuckles said:


> Most true statement I've read in a long time. I've seen more entertaining Junior A (LHJQ) games during one weekend in Quebec a month ago than the 35 games I went to in Elmira last season. Then you get leagues like the Q and that is amazing. You don't need prospects or big names, you just need teams built to win and play together and a sense of rivalries and dislike between the teams.




Agree. People want to be entertained, especially at the minor league level. My guess is most people don't go to Jackels, Comets, Thunder (fill in your teams name) games and think; "wow, #23 is really developing nicely. I can't wait to see him on TV playing in the NHL down the road!"

People want t see rivalries with other teams, especially closer regional teams.

I don't know how the ECHL does this being a developmental league. 

I also don't see how anther UHL type league survives without NHL help.


----------



## bmichel5581

I really hope Peoria and Omaha become teams #29 and #30!


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

bmichel5581 said:


> I really hope Peoria and Omaha become teams #29 and #30!




Would easily bet there won't remain 28 as is after this season(meaning some teams folding)


----------



## HansH

Until (and unless) the ECHL passes some kind of by-law requiring one (and only one) NHL/AHL affiliation, the idea of 30/30/30 remains only the sort of OCD obsession that insists that the NHL _must_ be expanding to 32 teams because the divisions are "uneven", even despite quotes from Bettman himself saying "we won't expand just for someone's idea of symmetry".

My advice for watchers is to stop obsessing about 30/30/30. Until and unless there are FAR more fundamental changes to the nature of the relationships of the league, the thing to watch far more closely is "which markets can this league retain, which markets can they add, and is there any more dancing we have to do if the AHL _does_ poach the leases in some of our current markets".


----------



## mfrerkes

SFTC Addict said:


> Would easily bet there won't remain 28 as is after this season(meaning some teams folding)




I have to agree with this. It was surprising to me that all 7 remaining CHL teams were accepted by the league. Some of those teams weren't self-sufficient in the CHL, so I'm having difficulty imagining how they'll suddenly turn it around in the ECHL.

Also, can somebody tell me how Elmira will exist in the long-term?


----------



## speedrissr

HansH said:


> Until (and unless) the ECHL passes some kind of by-law requiring one (and only one) NHL/AHL affiliation, the idea of 30/30/30 remains only the sort of OCD obsession that insists that the NHL _must_ be expanding to 32 teams because the divisions are "uneven", even despite quotes from Bettman himself saying "we won't expand just for someone's idea of symmetry".
> 
> My advice for watchers is to stop obsessing about 30/30/30. Until and unless there are FAR more fundamental changes to the nature of the relationships of the league, the thing to watch far more closely is "which markets can this league retain, which markets can they add, and is there any more dancing we have to do if the AHL _does_ poach the leases in some of our current markets".




^ This.

Al?

RLR


----------



## mk80

I would love to see the ECHL have a single affiliation policy someday. And I would say out of the current franchises in the league the ones with the most probability to fold after some time are Elmira, Brampton, and Wheeling (and Las Vegas). However I could see those franchise licenses being bought and transferred to cities such as Peoria, Houston (with a different arena) or Norfolk if the AHL leaves there. Those places I could hold an ECHL franchise and two have in the past.


Also it looks like the ECHL integrated the CHL franchises into their website banner and directory. I don't know whether they're going to add them or not but all the affiliations for the CHL teams are listed as independent so maybe the with the move any of the ones that were affiliated going into the season lost those since NHL teams had previously already had affiliates in the ECHL. The only exception are the Mavericks who have their Chicago Wolves affiliation listed.


----------



## MiamiHockey

mk80 said:


> I would love to see the ECHL have a single affiliation policy someday. And I would say out of the current franchises in the league the ones with the most probability to fold after some time are Elmira, Brampton, and Wheeling (and Las Vegas). However I could see those franchise licenses being bought and transferred to cities such as Peoria, Houston (with a different arena) or Norfolk if the AHL leaves there. Those places I could hold an ECHL franchise and two have in the past.




Your assessment of Elmira, Brampton, and Wheeling folding is based on what, exactly? 
Attendance?

Elmira is now affiliated with Buffalo and Rochester, which is ideal given their location. If Brampton affiliates with Toronto, it would be very unlikely for them to fold.


----------



## Kapn Kaveman

*Affiliations*

Anything contractual that was written on a piece of paper that had Central Hockey League as its header was null and void when the CHL teams joined the ECHL. Basically all 7 teams quit/left the CHL and went to the ECHL as expansion/new teams. Any previous contacts, including affiliations, are null and void.


----------



## BigMavsFan

Kapn Kaveman said:


> Anything contractual that was written on a piece of paper that had Central Hockey League as its header was null and void when the CHL teams joined the ECHL. Basically all 7 teams quit/left the CHL and went to the ECHL as expansion/new teams. Any previous contacts, including affiliations, are null and void.




I'll wait for a legal opinion on that one. The Mavs agreement with the Wolves was directly between them. Players assigned by the Wolves are still on the roster and practicing with the team.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

ECHL finally updated their league map:


----------



## Off da post and in

BigMavsFan said:


> I'll wait for a legal opinion on that one. The Mavs agreement with the Wolves was directly between them. Players assigned by the Wolves are still on the roster and practicing with the team.




It's true that all contracts were null and void as signed by the CHL teams. That's why all the players on the former CHL teams had to resign their contracts (see ECHL Transactions on their website), and how the ex-CHL teams voided the contracts with their vets to get down to the ECHL's 4 vet limit.


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

mfrerkes said:


> I have to agree with this. It was surprising to me that all 7 remaining CHL teams were accepted by the league. Some of those teams weren't self-sufficient in the CHL, so I'm having difficulty imagining how they'll suddenly turn it around in the ECHL.
> 
> Also, can somebody tell me how Elmira will exist in the long-term?




They won't....unless they go back to like 2002 and selling out every game.


----------



## BigMavsFan

Off da post and in said:


> It's true that all contracts were null and void as signed by the CHL teams. That's why all the players on the former CHL teams had to resign their contracts (see ECHL Transactions on their website), and how the ex-CHL teams voided the contracts with their vets to get down to the ECHL's 4 vet limit.




I'm aware of all of that, BUT I don't believe that had anything to do with affiliation agreements between teams and that is my point.


----------



## Off da post and in

BigMavsFan said:


> I'm aware of all of that, BUT I don't believe that had anything to do with affiliation agreements between teams and that is my point.




Ok,good point! Maybe affiliations with an AHL team, without a reciprocal deal with the NHL parent club, have a different binding nature.


----------



## Kapn Kaveman

While this does not come from a lawyer, it does come from Joe Babik the Director of Communications for the ECHL...

http://twosportsnuts.podbean.com/mobile/e/echl-expansion/

It is a good listen. None of this means that any previous affiliations could not have be re-agreed to once the 7 teams joined the ECHL.


----------



## No Fun Shogun

Just heard a Brampton Beast commercial on TSN Toronto promoting their upcoming first ECHL game, so at least we know that they're going to be spending some money promoting their brand and new league.


----------



## Drake88

For better or for worse, the ECHL seems to have a 1:1:1 mentality or bust. Hypothetically, if the ECHL were to go to 30 teams what do you guys think are the best options? *Could any of the old markets below return to hockey or the ECHL?* 

*Peoria*- ECHL was very interested

*San Francisco*- poor attendance, but does that change with new ownership who would be able to focus solely on management and not coaching?

*Trenton*- could a return a few years off revive the market and strengthen the northeast?

*Las Vegas*- They claim to be returning next year, but will they be able to find a rink? *if they do is it in the ECHL??*

*Houston*- a new, smaller, rink is supposedly on the way. could they make a return to hockey?


----------



## Hoodaha

Drake88 said:


> For better or for worse, the ECHL seems to have a 1:1:1 mentality or bust. Hypothetically, if the ECHL were to go to 30 teams what do you guys think are the best options? *Could any of the old markets below return to hockey or the ECHL?*
> 
> *Peoria*- ECHL was very interested
> 
> *San Francisco*- poor attendance, but does that change with new ownership who would be able to focus solely on management and not coaching?
> 
> *Trenton*- could a return a few years off revive the market and strengthen the northeast?
> 
> *Las Vegas*- They claim to be returning next year, but will they be able to find a rink? *if they do is it in the ECHL??*
> 
> *Houston*- a new, smaller, rink is supposedly on the way. could they make a return to hockey?




San Francisco is a bad market for ECHL. The costs are just too high.

I could see a few of the better attended SPHL teams joining in a similar move to what the CHL and WCHL have done.

Vegas might be in on the AHL West thing at some point, or there are rumors of NHL...There are lots of buildings in town.


----------



## MiamiHockey

Drake88 said:


> For better or for worse, the ECHL seems to have a 1:1:1 mentality or bust. Hypothetically, if the ECHL were to go to 30 teams what do you guys think are the best options? *Could any of the old markets below return to hockey or the ECHL?*
> 
> *Peoria*- ECHL was very interested
> 
> *San Francisco*- poor attendance, but does that change with new ownership who would be able to focus solely on management and not coaching?
> 
> *Trenton*- could a return a few years off revive the market and strengthen the northeast?
> 
> *Las Vegas*- They claim to be returning next year, but will they be able to find a rink? *if they do is it in the ECHL??*
> 
> *Houston*- a new, smaller, rink is supposedly on the way. could they make a return to hockey?




This has also been discussed on AHL boards, but one thing that is clearly happening is that NHL teams want to have their AHL & ECHL franchises within close proximity.

Pittsburgh - WBS - Wheeling
Buffalo - Rochester - Elmira
Philly - Lehigh Valley - Reading
Detroit - Grand Rapids - Toledo
Chicago - Rockford - Indy

So, do you see any of those ECHL franchises being revived by an NHL team within (relatively) close proximity?


----------



## Sports Enthusiast

MiamiHockey said:


> This has also been discussed on AHL boards, but one thing that is clearly happening is that NHL teams want to have their AHL & ECHL franchises within close proximity.
> 
> Pittsburgh - WBS - Wheeling
> Buffalo - Rochester - Elmira
> Philly - Lehigh Valley - Reading
> Detroit - Grand Rapids - Toledo
> Chicago - Rockford - Indy
> 
> So, do you see any of those ECHL franchises being revived by an NHL team within (relatively) close proximity?




I think its more for the AHL team so that if they need bodies they can get them quick or have to send guys down so they can get to practices and what not.


----------



## JDogindy

SFTC Addict said:


> I think its more for the AHL team so that if they need bodies they can get them quick or have to send guys down so they can get to practices and what not.




This I agree. One primary reason for the talk about the "AHL West" was so those teams can get their players faster. In the five close-knit circuits, however, I think it's more or a convinence factor, as well as seeing if there's a hidden gem from the ECHL club that would be worth experimenting on.

I can see that system working for Indy & maybe Toledo, but the others we'll have to see.



Drake88 said:


> For better or for worse, the ECHL seems to have a 1:1:1 mentality or bust. Hypothetically, if the ECHL were to go to 30 teams what do you guys think are the best options? *Could any of the old markets below return to hockey or the ECHL?*
> 
> *Peoria*- ECHL was very interested
> 
> *San Francisco*- poor attendance, but does that change with new ownership who would be able to focus solely on management and not coaching?
> 
> *Trenton*- could a return a few years off revive the market and strengthen the northeast?
> 
> *Las Vegas*- They claim to be returning next year, but will they be able to find a rink? *if they do is it in the ECHL??*
> 
> *Houston*- a new, smaller, rink is supposedly on the way. could they make a return to hockey?




Hmm...

Peoria: Would work. It would be so much easier for them if they were in the CHL, where they had close proximity to at least 7 teams, as opposed to SPHL, where the rest of their opponents are in the south.
San Francisco: Bad market, horrible old arena, and the proposed new arena would be too expensive for an ECHL franchise.
Trenton: Maybe... if the ECHL regains a foothold in the Mid-Atlantic region, but you also have the New Jersey Devils playing there.
Las Vegas: That depends. There are lots of conflicting stories about a stubborn casino and a cheapskate owner, and they may not even come back. 
Houston: This would be the best choice. While Houstonians would not be overtly happy about the ECHL, at least it's better than no hockey in H-Town. There is a clear lack of franchises in that region, unlike in the old days, and Allen would be the closest rival. But, I think that the ECHL would like to solidify themselves in another major market.


----------



## Off da post and in

Drake88 said:


> For better or for worse, the ECHL seems to have a 1:1:1 mentality or bust. Hypothetically, if the ECHL were to go to 30 teams what do you guys think are the best options? *Could any of the old markets below return to hockey or the ECHL?*
> 
> *Peoria*- ECHL was very interested
> 
> *San Francisco*- poor attendance, but does that change with new ownership who would be able to focus solely on management and not coaching?
> 
> *Trenton*- could a return a few years off revive the market and strengthen the northeast?
> 
> *Las Vegas*- They claim to be returning next year, but will they be able to find a rink? *if they do is it in the ECHL??*
> 
> *Houston*- a new, smaller, rink is supposedly on the way. could they make a return to hockey?




Here's my take....
*Peoria*- An attractive geographic location. However, the rink needs a major upgrade and the town's demographics are on the decline in several categories, mainly financial.

*San Francisco*- Was it management, the venue, or are the locals not interested ? The ECHL would have to really figure it out, because the first two can be fixed, but the last item can not.

*Trenton*- Meh! They'd be better off waiting for the AHL move and pluck Norfolk if it's available.

*Las Vegas*- The AHL and NHL really balk on considering this town, and the ECHL could join them after the latest owner/casino fiasco. This could be time for the ECHL to either activate the RENO 'futures bit', or just write off Nevada.

*Houston*- This is the Southwest's version of Brampton, isolated and no nearby NHL/AHL affiliations. Wouldn't happen unless another Texas team and or Shreveport also join the E.

Regarding the trio in limbo,*Denver, Arizona, & St. Charles*, only Arizona has a slight chance of resurgence in some hockey league . I don't see Denver or St. Charles reviving the necessary fan interest.


----------



## MiamiHockey

SFTC Addict said:


> I think its more for the AHL team so that if they need bodies they can get them quick or have to send guys down so they can get to practices and what not.




More than what?

There are several reasons why teams want affiliates close by, player travel being one of them. Most NHL franchises have developmental coaches / staff who also need to travel, and it's inherently easier to make a minor league team attractive to local fans when those fans are already engaged with the major league affiliate.

The point being, if any city is to return to / enter into the ECHL (or AHL for that matter), an important factor will be the potential affiliation.


----------



## tvboy11

When dealing with affiliations, I'd love to see some sort of provision that protects ECHL teams against the AHL raiding ECHL-contracted players when AHL/NHL-contracted players are available.

Don't ever see the NHL/AHL nor the players union going for it (restricting opportunities or options) but, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, it doesn't do the ECHL team's locker room any favors to have frustrated/unmotivated contract players watching ECHL guys get called up instead of them.

As it is, there isn't a ton of motivation, from purely a hockey standpoint, for the NHL or AHL to give a rip about the ECHL or its teams. Don't like a player? Banish him to your affiliate. Need a player? Call up whoever you want from any team, regardless of whether or not you have contracted players available for recall. If the ECHL coach has done his job well, he's unearthed a couple gems on his own that any AHL team can come in and call up, affiliate or not. 

It's basically a no-lose proposition for the AHL teams and you're almost penalizing the ECHL team for doing a good job of scouting and recruiting.


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## Hoodaha

> Las Vegas- The AHL and NHL really balk on considering this town, and the ECHL could join them after the latest owner/casino fiasco. This could be time for the ECHL to either activate the RENO 'futures bit', or just write off Nevada.




Umm, the ECHL owner and the arena's owner had issues with one another. I don't think that's a reason to discount Vegas, which has drawn well in the past. The NHL is allegedly considering Vegas, so I wouldn't say that they balk at it. The AHL hasn't had teams close enough to make any move to Vegas make any sense. If the AHL west thing happens with Ontario, Bakersfield, Stockton, and possibly San Diego - Vegas becomes a much more interesting option. Afterall, Vegas has cheap flights to pretty much everywhere, it's driving distance of the California teams. Attendance has never been all that bad, certainly better than some current AHL teams. If a building can be arranged, there's no reason it wouldn't be a viable AHL city *if* the AHL West happens. There are tons of buildings in Vegas - the main issue was time for the ECHL owners, not building options.


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## Off da post and in

tvboy11 said:


> When dealing with affiliations, I'd love to see some sort of provision that protects ECHL teams against the AHL raiding ECHL-contracted players when AHL/NHL-contracted players are available.
> 
> Don't ever see the NHL/AHL nor the players union going for it (restricting opportunities or options) but, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, it doesn't do the ECHL team's locker room any favors to have frustrated/unmotivated contract players watching ECHL guys get called up instead of them.
> 
> As it is, there isn't a ton of motivation, from purely a hockey standpoint, for the NHL or AHL to give a rip about the ECHL or its teams. Don't like a player? Banish him to your affiliate. Need a player? Call up whoever you want from any team, regardless of whether or not you have contracted players available for recall. If the ECHL coach has done his job well, he's unearthed a couple gems on his own that any AHL team can come in and call up, affiliate or not.
> 
> It's basically a no-lose proposition for the AHL teams and you're almost penalizing the ECHL team for doing a good job of scouting and recruiting.




I'm guessing you're a fan of an ECHL team that has ECHL contracted players called up to the AHL.

I'd find it hard to believe an ECHL contracted player would be offended or would refuse an oppurtunity of an AHL call-up.


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## Sports Enthusiast

MiamiHockey said:


> More than what?
> 
> There are several reasons why teams want affiliates close by, player travel being one of them. Most NHL franchises have developmental coaches / staff who also need to travel, and it's inherently easier to make a minor league team attractive to local fans when those fans are already engaged with the major league affiliate.
> 
> The point being, if any city is to return to / enter into the ECHL (or AHL for that matter), an important factor will be the potential affiliation.




Not many guys are going from the ECHL to the NHL. Maybe some coaches and goaltenders. But coaches have to be in a dire situation where the teams above them aren't good at all. Otherwise its a long shot. Diehards don't care about affiliations because they know the realistic deal. The sheep....or casual fan if they know anything about hockey might care but most casual fans don't know too much of the business if anything. Like in Elmira this year I don't see attendance skyrocketing off the charts just because of the affiliation change. Sure hasn't done anything for Wheeling.


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## Off da post and in

Hoodaha said:


> Umm, the ECHL owner and the arena's owner had issues with one another. I don't think that's a reason to discount Vegas, which has drawn well in the past. The NHL is allegedly considering Vegas, so I wouldn't say that they balk at it. The AHL hasn't had teams close enough to make any move to Vegas make any sense. If the AHL west thing happens with Ontario, Bakersfield, Stockton, and possibly San Diego - Vegas becomes a much more interesting option. Afterall, Vegas has cheap flights to pretty much everywhere, it's driving distance of the California teams. Attendance has never been all that bad, certainly better than some current AHL teams. If a building can be arranged, there's no reason it wouldn't be a viable AHL city *if* the AHL West happens. There are tons of buildings in Vegas - the main issue was time for the ECHL owners, not building options.




The concerns for the top two levels [NHL & AHL] are Vegas is not the kind of atmosphere they prefer their young talent [18-22yrs.old] being in with limited supervision. Also, the cost of living and other activities are too pricy for guys on minor league salaries. It's trouble waiting to happen.

BTW, Las Vegas is nowhere near the top of the expansion list for the NHL so don't hold your breath waiting for a team.


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## tvboy11

Off da post and in said:


> I'd find it hard to believe an ECHL contracted player would be offended or would refuse an oppurtunity of an AHL call-up.




I don't recall saying or even hinting that one would.

I was talking about the teams. What incentive do the AHL/NHL teams have to really work with an ECHL team when they can go call up pretty much whoever they want from wherever they want, even if they have contracted players playing for its affiliate? From the standpoint of the ECHL teams, it'd be nice to have some kind of protection against that stuff but, like I said, I don't see any way the players union or the AHL/NHL would ever go for it. 

All these ECHL teams have become are holding bins for scouting mistakes or underperforming players.


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## GareFan18

I could see something like this for Missouri (Kansas City)

St. Louis-Chicago Wolves-Missouri Mavericks
Or
Minnesota-Des Moines-Missouri Mavericks. Though Minnesota may affiliate with Quad Cities.


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## Sports Enthusiast

I wish the dopes running this league would come to the realization that the diehards have long figured out. This league is not important to the successes of the AHL or NHL. They really don't even need this league. The only reason they do is to stuff remaining contracts of guys way down the number list of contracted players who can't make the AHL roster but are out of options aside from going to Europe(which if they were smarter the players would rather go there, better hockey and more money)most of these guys will never become AHL regulars let alone play in the NHL. The product is horrible because of the affiliation. Nothing like going to a mid season game in Elmira or Reading and seeing a depleted lineup and struggling to field a team and having to use FHL or SPHL level players to fill the voids. Paying for season tickets isn't worth it. This league would be well better off becoming like the old UHL. The UHL didn't die because of Its business model. It died because the league became a Midwestern bus league and was in struggling cities like Port Huron, Muskegon and Flint who could no longer support teams. Throw in a team from Chicago that had no real shot and Bloomington was always a mess.


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## HansH

If affiliations didn't make the business economically feasible, some unaffiliated league would come into the many vacant markets and, by your reasoning, make a killing because people would flock to the arena...

...but the market hasn't supported that. Market forces have made it clear that getting some kind of salary relief and subsidy from a higher league are nearly essential to keep the red ink from killing a mid-minors level team. That's not the doing of the ECHL -- that's the market saying what it's willing to pay for the entertainment product. The UHL failed, the WCHL failed, the IHL (of the 90s) failed... independent hockey is just not supported by the markets. The empirical evidence is clear.

Unless you think you can make a killing in founding an independent league, in which case I wish you the best of luck.


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## mfrerkes

GareFan18 said:


> I could see something like this for Missouri (Kansas City)
> 
> St. Louis-Chicago Wolves-Missouri Mavericks
> Or
> Minnesota-Des Moines-Missouri Mavericks. Though Minnesota may affiliate with Quad Cities.




The Mallards were affiliated the Wild last season and continued their (now defunct) CHL affiliation again this season. Alaska is the current "official" ECHL affiliate for Minnesota, replacing Orlando from last season.

Once a _fully-integrated_ ECHL begins playing in 2015-16, I bet Minnesota makes the QC Mallards their lone ECHL affiliate. This season, however, I can see Alaska getting most of Minnesota's better prospect material.


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## Sports Enthusiast

mfrerkes said:


> The Mallards were affiliated the Wild last season and continued their (now defunct) CHL affiliation again this season. Alaska is the current "official" ECHL affiliate for Minnesota, replacing Orlando from last season.
> 
> Once a _fully-integrated_ ECHL begins playing in 2015-16, I bet Minnesota makes the QC Mallards their lone ECHL affiliate. This season, however, I can see Alaska getting most of Minnesota's better prospect material.




Do you really think the Mallards will last? Are Chris Lencheski or Eric Katls or Club9 coming back? Lol


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## speedrissr

SFTC Addict said:


> I wish the dopes running this league would come to the realization that the diehards have long figured out. This league is not important to the successes of the AHL or NHL. They really don't even need this league. The only reason they do is to stuff remaining contracts of guys way down the number list of contracted players who can't make the AHL roster but are out of options aside from going to Europe(which if they were smarter the players would rather go there, better hockey and more money)most of these guys will never become AHL regulars let alone play in the NHL. The product is horrible because of the affiliation. Nothing like going to a mid season game in Elmira or Reading and seeing a depleted lineup and struggling to field a team and having to use FHL or SPHL level players to fill the voids. Paying for season tickets isn't worth it. This league would be well better off becoming like the old UHL. The UHL didn't die because of Its business model. It died because the league became a Midwestern bus league and was in struggling cities like Port Huron, Muskegon and Flint who could no longer support teams. Throw in a team from Chicago that had no real shot and Bloomington was always a mess.




I agree with the NHL not caring, it does have value for the AHL teams, giving them a spot to park a handful of players and a goalie, the 30 / 30 / 30 fanbois will have to take their victory lap early, there won't be 28, much less 30 teams next season.

Al?

RLR


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## mfrerkes

SFTC Addict said:


> Do you really think the Mallards will last? Are Chris Lencheski or Eric Katls or Club9 coming back? Lol




I guess that depends on how you define "last" in terms of longevity. The Mallards may have bought themselves a couple extra years in AA hockey by moving to the ECHL. The geography is much better than the CHL, and I think the Mallards' current ownership may be committed enough to soldier on if the attendance stabilizes.

That's a big "if" right now, but it certainly isn't out of the question. Eventually, I believe economic necessity may force the Mallards into the USHL, especially if attendance drops back into the low 3k range. We'll just have to see if the current owners can keep improving the overall product. Like I said, a big "if" given our recent past.

I'm certainly rooting for the ECHL to succeed in the Quad Cities. I also know rooting alone means nothing if the balance sheet is drowning in red ink.


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