# Premier League 2017-2018



## spintheblackcircle

With the schedule set to come out tomorrow, may as well start a new thread. 

Plus, this.

http://cartilagefreecaptain.sbnatio...ks-arm-south-korea-world-cup-qualifying-qatar

International football is bad. Even in the offseason summer months all it usually does is break up the vacations of your clubâ€™s players at a time when they should be resting. During the year, at best you end up with players that return to their clubs tired, and at worst they come back injured.

Thatâ€™s exactly what happened to Tottenham Hotspurâ€™s Son Heung-Min, who broke his forearm after an arial challenge of the ball in the midst of a 3-2 World Cup qualifying loss to Qatar.


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## spintheblackcircle

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/english-premier-league/story/3140346/premier-league-fixtures-2017-18

opening week

Saturday, August 12, 2017
Arsenal v Leicester City
Brighton and Hove Albion v Manchester City
Chelsea v Burnley
Crystal Palace v Huddersfield Town
Everton v Stoke City
Manchester United v West Ham United
Newcastle United v Tottenham Hotspur
Southampton v Swansea City
Watford v Liverpool
West Bromwich Albion v Bournemouth


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## Paulie Gualtieri

First game at Wembley against Chelsea. Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal within 11 days. **** that schedule.


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## bluesfan94

spintheblackcircle said:


> http://www.espnfc.co.uk/english-premier-league/story/3140346/premier-league-fixtures-2017-18
> 
> opening week
> 
> Saturday, August 12, 2017
> Arsenal v Leicester City
> Brighton and Hove Albion v Manchester City
> Chelsea v Burnley
> Crystal Palace v Huddersfield Town
> Everton v Stoke City
> Manchester United v West Ham United
> Newcastle United v Tottenham Hotspur
> Southampton v Swansea City
> Watford v Liverpool
> West Bromwich Albion v Bournemouth





Newcastle starting their new time in the Premier League with the team they ended their prior Premier League run with. 

Hopefully the result is similar.


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## Halladay

Ill take Watford away as the opening fixture. They will be under a different manager, though Silva is good. Tough stretch after that.


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## bluesfan94

Glad we get our disappointment in Stoke out early. At least it won't be a *cold* rainy night in Stoke.

In theory, Arsenal's schedule doesn't look too terrible. Chelsea and ManU are short rest games during the November-January period but they're preceded by West Brom and Huddersfield respectively. That should be manageable. Interestingly, we play Tottenham/City back to back in both halves of the schedule, but each has a week off in between.

Looking at the end of the schedule, if Arsenal is in a title race, they really only have ManU down the back stretch.


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## YNWA14

bluesfan94 said:


> Looking at the end of the schedule, *if Arsenal is in a title race*, they really only have ManU down the back stretch.


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## Live in the Now

It'll be great when our season comes down to an away at Chelsea. The absolute last thing I wanted.


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## Savant

LFC's schedule in 2018 isn't bad but there are some very rough stretches in the first half of the fixtures.


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## Savant

Live in the Now said:


> It'll be great when our season comes down to an away at Chelsea. The absolute last thing I wanted.




One of these years we will get them back....

I feel like we always play them late besides last year.


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## spintheblackcircle

TopKex said:


> First game at Wembley against Chelsea. Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal within 11 days. **** that schedule.




If that means we get Chelsea without the injured Hazard, sign me up.


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## Cassano

Koscielny will be ready for Anfield this time, which is great news.


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## Evilo

Puel leaves Southampton. I'm quite surprised. He finished decently in league and reached a cup final.
Anyone can tell me what went wrong? He seems like a great fit : he's at his best with young players and not with big egos. He usually makes those young teams overachieve.


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## Live in the Now

Supporters complaining about the style of play. While it did get results, it was very negative. In their last five games at home they didn't score. They also had a very hard time scoring once they lost van Dijk's buildup play and long passing (which is part of why the rumored fees for him are so high).

They also went out of Europe in a group they should have qualified from, with Sparta Prague and Hapoel advancing over them.


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## East Coast Bias

Liverpool were tapping him up too


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## MJG

Evilo said:


> Puel leaves Southampton. I'm quite surprised. He finished decently in league and reached a cup final.
> Anyone can tell me what went wrong? He seems like a great fit : he's at his best with young players and not with big egos. He usually makes those young teams overachieve.




I don't have the table in front of me, but I believe that they finished 17 or 18 points worse off compared to the season for. So despite the 8th place finish, they didn't perform as well.


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## bluesfan94

Curtinho said:


>




How's the Premier League title treating you?

Yawn.

Arsenal without CL will probably do fairly well this year.


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## Adonis Creed

Chelsea-Pool will have a tougher time with Champs League.

I expect Tottenham or ****** to win the title


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## Havre

MJG said:


> I don't have the table in front of me, but I believe that they finished 17 or 18 points worse off compared to the season for. So despite the 8th place finish, they didn't perform as well.




Don't think league position had much to do with it.

Puel acted as the Grinch of football. Unbelievably boring to watch. Not sure how you can keep a team motivated long term being that defensive and destructive every single week.

A bit surprised. I like Puel from my time living in France. Didn't expect Bielsa, but didn't expect it to be this bad either.


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## Evilo

Business as usual for us. Puel is a strong defensive coach, like most here. This is exactly what I was talking about when I said most L1 teams play behind the ball.


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## Paulie Gualtieri

Even if things have gone well lately for Spurs I am not optimistic for next season at all. The loss of WHL is immense. Don't expect Wembley to have a good atmosphere, and the larger pitch makes our pressing game much harder. And on top of that those ****ing *******s schedule us to play Arsenal, Liverpool and Man U in 11 days. 

As much as i hate to admit it, I wouldn't be surprised if an exodus happens next summer.


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## Havre

TopKex said:


> Even if things have gone well lately for Spurs I am not optimistic for next season at all. The loss of WHL is immense. Don't expect Wembley to have a good atmosphere, and the larger pitch makes our pressing game much harder. And on top of that those ****ing *******s schedule us to play Arsenal, Liverpool and Man U in 11 days.
> 
> As much as i hate to admit it, I wouldn't be surprised if an exodus happens next summer.




And a larger pitch makes it easier to break down "lesser" teams. Of course hard to copy this season, but that would have been the case even if Spurs had stayed at WHL.

99% certain Wembley will be an issue though. Top 4 would be immense.

Also hate the pitch at Wembley. Soft. Slows things down and tires players. Fatigue and injuries will be a bigger issue than the size of the pitch in my opinion.

As for when you play the tougher games - could not care less. Any "science"/statistics that suggest that when you play teams will influence the final standings?

Exoduses just donÂ´t happen. DidnÂ´t happen for Leicester. HasnÂ´t happened for AM even if they canÂ´t compete at all financially. Probably wonÂ´t happen for Monaco. Spurs will lose individual players again - sure, but even if Pochettino leaves there wonÂ´t be any "exodus".


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## Paulie Gualtieri

Havre said:


> As for when you play the tougher games - could not care less. Any "science"/statistics that suggest that when you play teams will influence the final standings?




You don't think fatigue will be a factor when we need to not only play our best XI, but also work harder when we play these teams that we are competing with for the top spots?


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## Havre

TopKex said:


> You don't think fatigue will be a factor when we need to not only play our best XI, but also work harder when we play these teams that we are competing with for the top spots?




I might be wrong. I just find it strange that pundits etc. often talk about this, but with all the stats you get through for example OPTA I have still yet to see anyone showing that teams run less, sprint less etc. at the end of tough periods. Sure - in the Christmas period when there isnÂ´t sufficient time to recover for anyone, but that is not the same as to say you run so much more against a team like Arsenal that it will influence what happens 3-4 maybe even 7 days later.

It would be great if someone had access to OPTA. On average in the "big games" how much longer do players run? If anything at all. Personally I would be quite surprised if we are talking about more than a couple of hundred meters extra (and probably more sprints). Of course I do get surprised from time to time 

I know Spurs monitor everything. Pochettino has even mentioned it himself. Liverpool has also publicly said the same thing (IÂ´m sure most clubs do). Science wonÂ´t guarantee you that fatigue doesnÂ´t become an issue for certain players, but I donÂ´t think we are likely to see whole teams "collapse" any more. If so that would be more a mental issue than physical fatigue. Of course if they see after the second match in a tough period that many will need to rest for the third you would be right in saying the schedule is unfortunate.


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## East Coast Bias

For American viewers, the free ride is over.

Any games that are on the overflow channels/streaming are behind a pay wall now. 

It says each team will appear on the overflow channels a minimum 3 times a year.

$49.99 for the season. Was only a matter of time.



http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/85/e...30-premier-league-matches-to-new?ICID=HP_BN_1


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## Live in the Now

Back to stealing then. I'm not going to pay for something I was already getting when paying my cable bill.


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## spintheblackcircle

NBC just pissed everyone off.


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## maclean

Fifty bucks is crazy. I pay 25 for my full satellite package. It's true I only get one PL game per time slot, but I've also got games from the Spanish, Italian, French, German, Dutch leagues on other channels as well.


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## East Coast Bias

You can't totally blame them though. This is every other American sports model.

You get nationally televised games, and if you want every game, you have to buy the season pass.

I highly doubt it impacts United/Arsenal/Liverpool games because those get the big numbers. If you're a Palace/Newcastle/Southampton fan? You're stuck


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## spintheblackcircle

Last year top 10 watched:

ManCity-4
Liverpool-3
Tottenham-3
ManU-2
Chelsea-2
Leicester-2
Arsenal-1


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## phisherman

East Coast Bias said:


> You can't totally blame them though. This is every other American sports model.
> 
> You get nationally televised games, and if you want every game, you have to buy the season pass.
> 
> I highly doubt it impacts United/Arsenal/Liverpool games because those get the big numbers. If you're a Palace/Newcastle/Southampton fan? You're stuck




Beginning of the TV bubble.

NBC overpaid so they're trying to make up for it.

Just my opinion. 

I'll still enjoy TSN and Sportsnet doing dual coverage.


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## East Coast Bias

phisherman said:


> Beginning of the TV bubble.
> 
> NBC overpaid so they're trying to make up for it.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> I'll still enjoy TSN and Sportsnet doing dual coverage.




Oh I don't disagree. 

And I'm not sure they have the following to pull this off. The NFL can do whatever the hell they want. EPL? Not so much.

I'm more surprised at the surprise I guess? This was always going to happen.


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## bluesfan94

Wait do they consider the overflow channels esquire/CNBC/USA or whatever?

Oh well, I didn't really use it online often.


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## Burner Account

Gouging fans of smaller teams.


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## East Coast Bias

bluesfan94 said:


> Wait do they consider the overflow channels esquire/CNBC/USA or whatever?
> 
> Oh well, I didn't really use it online often.




No only ones that were on the overflow channels or online only. 

Anything on cable will still be shown if you have cable.


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## StatesideSensFan

it is stupid, i dont get why they dont put it on EPL Goal Zone(yes, i know that is a rip off of the MLS package). I have Directv and i would pay for the package if it were like 99 bucks or something.


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## njdevsfn95

NUFC made their radio free (instead of part of NUFCTV package) starting last season. Hopefully that continues.

If not I still am not forking out $50. I'll follow via Twitter which I did many times because Newcastle only lost a couple of times when I did that and I will always go with what works.


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## Live in the Now

I'd pay $50 if I followed a smaller club. I assume about 25 games would be on there and it's worth 2 dollars a game. But considering Liverpool will be on there about 6 or 7 times (or less), it's back to stealing and I don't even feel a little bad about it.


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## Edo

And people wonder why English teams struggle to compete in Europe.


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## bluesfan94

Edo said:


> And people wonder why English teams struggle to compete in Europe.




It's because of NBC's broadcasting decisions?

Anyway, given how often Arsenal is on, I probably won't shell out money. I also have FoxSports1 and BeIN, so I have plenty of soccer.


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## Edo

bluesfan94 said:


> It's because of NBC's broadcasting decisions?
> 
> Anyway, given how often Arsenal is on, I probably won't shell out money. I also have FoxSports1 and BeIN, so I have plenty of soccer.




English teams will play 6-7 more games than their German/Spanish/French/Italian rivals by Dec 31st. They're consistently at disadvantage and somehow still picked on for not advancing further despite this huge handicap.


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## Live in the Now

They have more money than all of them. So no, it's not a handicap. They need to learn how to use it better.


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## Edo

Live in the Now said:


> They have more money than all of them. So no, it's not a handicap. They need to learn how to use it better.




That's ridiculous. No amount of depth will allow the English teams to rest their stars and draw them on an equal playing field to everybody else in Europe. It's arguably the deepest league to boot and the top teams aren't really able to walk through games like the big clubs in the other countries can. 

I don't understand why people continue to trash their record in Europe while ignoring this. This isn't FIFA 17. Professional athletes get tired, and the ones on the English teams are clearly not in peak physical condition when the CL rolls around.

It's not an opinion. It's a fact.


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## Havre

Live in the Now said:


> They have more money than all of them. So no, it's not a handicap. They need to learn how to use it better.




Not exactly my favourite topic to discuss, but don't you find it odd that every single club for years and years are incapable of spending their money "better"?

So often I see people claiming that English clubs are "stupid" and not very well ran (similar to "learn how to use it better"). That might be some truth to that, but every single one of them? And every single one of them continue to be so regardless of who owns and manages them?

To me that is clearly not the full picture / answer / reason.

If it is the number of games or just lack of stability at the top - I'm not sure. Barcelona, RM, BM, Juventus etc. are basically guaranteed to be a top 3-4 club even when they have a bad season. That is not the same in England any longer. I don't think it is a coincidence that English clubs did better in the CL when you had more stability among the top 4.


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## Evilo

So, EPL teams play more until december and thus play less afterwards, including during the CL knockout stage....

Where's the handicap?

Monaco was the team in Europe (Top 5 leagues) with the most games and they reached the semis with a squad of teenagers. They had to play several prem. rounds before making the CL. EPL teams barely have prem. rounds.

So where's the handicap?


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## Evilo

Havre said:


> Not exactly my favourite topic to discuss, but don't you find it odd that every single club for years and years are incapable of spending their money "better"?
> 
> So often I see people claiming that English clubs are "stupid" and not very well ran (similar to "learn how to use it better"). That might be some truth to that, but every single one of them? And every single one of them continue to be so regardless of who owns and manages them?
> 
> To me that is clearly not the full picture / answer / reason.
> 
> If it is the number of games or just lack of stability at the top - I'm not sure. Barcelona, RM, BM, Juventus etc. are basically guaranteed to be a top 3-4 club even when they have a bad season. That is not the same in England any longer. I don't think it is a coincidence that English clubs did better in the CL when you had more stability among the top 4.




Clearly it is, and one of the reasons why they spend badly is because they have too much money. When EPL teams go out and sign Jordan Ayew for 15MÃ¢â€šÂ¬ for crazy money it's stupid. When they signed Kante for half the fee, it is smart.
Plenty of teams have too much money and don't scout the players well enough.
Some EPL teams do their homework when it comes to scouting. For instance, Chelsea rarely makes huge mistakes when signing someone. Sometimes, youngsters (on loan) don't pan out, but they go and try to sign the best.
OTOH, Aston Villa spending 15M on Ayew is just perfectly ridiculous. Anyone with half a brain could tell you that. Anyone who's seen even ONE game of Ayew could tell you that. And I can't even imagine them mxiing up with his brother. They're supposed to be professionnal.

There's this thought still, in the EPL, that money and "glory" (that's how EPL views itself) will make the difference.
In the end, teams that invested smartly top the others. Leicester signed Kante, it was smart. Same with Mahrez. It paid off. That was enough to win the CL in a down year for mega teams who spent mega-millions on overrated players.


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## bleedblue1223

East Coast Bias said:


> You can't totally blame them though. This is every other American sports model.
> 
> You get nationally televised games, and if you want every game, you have to buy the season pass.
> 
> I highly doubt it impacts United/Arsenal/Liverpool games because those get the big numbers. If you're a Palace/Newcastle/Southampton fan? You're stuck




Not really though. Every other American sports model is based here, so you get every local sports team in your basic cable package, without spending extra. 

If NBC wants more money, that's fine, but make a $75-100 package for every single game, and a $25 package for 1 single team. Or something along those lines. What MLB does for their service aimed at fans living outside the local market of their team. I'd pay something for every Chelsea game, but not $50.


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## Jersey Fresh

That NBC subscription thing really pisses me off. I wasn't thinking of cord cutting yet, but I may now. Really screws anyone not following the top 6.


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## Savant

The ironic thing is that live sports is the only thing keeping many Americans from cutting cords.


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## bleedblue1223

Savant said:


> The ironic thing is that live sports is the only thing keeping many Americans from cutting cords.




Sling TV or Playstation Vue is the best alternative for sports fans wanting to cut back.


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## Savant

bleedblue1223 said:


> Sling TV or Playstation Vue is the best alternative for sports fans wanting to cut back.




Yes and no. By the I get a sling and internet I may as well be getting cable. It's about the same price.


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## bleedblue1223

Savant said:


> Yes and no. By the I get a sling and internet I may as well be getting cable. It's about the same price.




So, you're saying people out there get cable, but don't get internet? Sling+internet is the vast majority of the time cheaper than cable+internet.


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## Savant

bleedblue1223 said:


> So, you're saying people out there get cable, but don't get internet? Sling+internet is the vast majority of the time cheaper than cable+internet.




Where I am it it's about 80 per month total either way.


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## bleedblue1223

Savant said:


> Where I am it it's about 80 per month total either way.




It just depends on packages and what's available. If you negotiate, you typically can get ridiculous deals from cable/satellite providers though.


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## maclean

I know my parents switched from satellite back to cable because the cable company started offering a package where you could pick which channels you wanted instead of having to take stupid packages with one or two things you want and a bunch of junk you don"t. I'm hoping that kind of flexibility becomes a trend soon.


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## bleedblue1223

maclean said:


> I know my parents switched from satellite back to cable because the cable company started offering a package where you could pick which channels you wanted instead of having to take stupid packages with one or two things you want and a bunch of junk you don"t. I'm hoping that kind of flexibility becomes a trend soon.




It should. Those companies are starting to realize that something is better than nothing. It's going to be crazy when all these crazy sports tv deals eventually come crashing down.


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## spintheblackcircle

http://soccer.nbcsports.com/2017/06/29/fernando-llorente-breaks-arm-in-cycling-accident-on-vacation/

Fernando Llorente, 32, has fractured a bone in his lower arm and will require surgery.

Swansea’s leading goalscorer from last season — the Spaniard scored 15 goals in 33 appearances after arriving from Sevilla — injured his arm in a cycling accident while on a family vacation.


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## spintheblackcircle




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## Havre

Not sure if I see the connection. Trippier has given no indication of being unhappy playing far less than Walker. Could very well be Walker / Trippier down the right for a couple more years (even if I think it is a fair chance Walker gets sold).


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## Eye of Ra

Mike Tyson: "I've been in Manchester for a long period of time and I've never heard of Manchester City."

lol
https://twitter.com/geniusfootball/status/882307238412419072


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## Jussi

United will once again be captained by a #16.


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## njdevsfn95

I was unaware that Lascelles was giving up the captaincy to Aarons.

Seems rather strange as the armband will always be in the treatment room.


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## Burner Account




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## YNWA14

Honestly can't wait for this season to start. The team we've built now is quite effective and the players are starting to come into their primes. I think Klopp sticks with the 4-3-3 for the most part, and with Coutinho moving into midfield and the depth options we've got (including Sturridge looking healthy and fit) I think the struggle to break down defensive teams will be lessened (though the diamond is still an option there also). Getting Henderson back healthy is going to be massive as his switch to the 6 was a masterstroke and on performance he was easily one of the best midfielders in the PL last season and should build on that as he looks very sharp. With Salah and Mane on the wings and Firmino/Coutinho providing the work for them I could see a lot of goals and a team that's very difficult to play against. I'm really looking forward to the CL as well, as Klopp has shown his ability to get the team up against other big teams and in important games is nearly unmatched.

ManÃ© - Firmino - Salah
Coutinho - Wijnaldum
Henderson
Robertson - Lovren* - Matip - Clyne*
Karius

*Lovren and Clyne could easily lose their spots to van Dijk if he's signed, and TAA respectively.​
I like that team's chances against just about anyone. I'm feeling at least one trophy this year, and I don't care which.

EDIT: Also for those doubting Wijnaldum still here's an excerpt from an interview with Lijnders:



> _Voor intensieve en risicovolle spelwijze zoekt Liverpool naar een bepaald type speler. Geen eendimensionale spierbundels maar ranke allrounders en ‘creatieve machines’ zoals Sadio ManÃ©. Het aantrekken van Georginio Wijnaldum sluit hierop aan. ,,Gini belichaamt onze manier van spelen”, stelt Lijnders. De groei van de international is voor hem geen verrassing. ,,Onze specifieke manier van spelen forceert individuele ontwikkeling.”_
> 
> For intensive and risky game mode, Liverpool is looking for a certain type of player. No one-dimensional muscle bundles but pure allrounders and "creative machines" like Sadio ManÃ©. The attraction of Georginio Wijnaldum concludes. *"Gini embodies our way of playing," says Lijnders. The growth of the international is no surprise to him. "Our specific way of playing forces individual development."*


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## spintheblackcircle

Too early for me to pick top 4, but bottom three I think will be Swansea, Huddersfield and B & H


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## Paulie Gualtieri

spintheblackcircle said:


> Too early for me to pick top 4, but bottom three I think will be Swansea, Huddersfield and B & H




I'd swap Swansea for Burnley, even if Sigurdsson might leave.


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## Savant

TopKex said:


> I'd swap Swansea for Burnley, even if Sigurdsson might leave.




Saw Swansea play recently and they drew 0-0 with my local NASL (league under MLS) side and looked terrible doing so. Not confident in the staying up.


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## Nalens Oga

I actually can't get over the fact that Bournemouth are still in the Prem and not even favourites to be relegated. I mean, their stadium capacity is friggin 12,000. There are third division (aka League One) clubs with bigger stadiums than that, that is tiny for the Prem. I mean just to get to 20M GDP in revenue from 19 Premiership home games in a season, they would have to charge an average of almost 90 GDP per ticket. How are they in the Premiership.


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## Blender

If Sigurdsson leaves, I can't see Swansea having any hope of staying up.



Nalens Oga said:


> I actually can't get over the fact that Bournemouth are still in the Prem and not even favourites to be relegated. I mean, their stadium capacity is friggin 12,000. There are third division (aka League One) clubs with bigger stadiums than that, that is tiny for the Prem. I mean just to get to 20M GDP in revenue from 19 Premiership home games in a season, they would have to charge an average of almost 90 GDP per ticket. How are they in the Premiership.




If they are smart in the market, which they have been recently, that TV money will keep them up now.


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## Ceremony

Ticket income in the modern Premier League is largely irrelevant to a club's on-pitch success.


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## Cucumber

where do you guys think Newcastle will finish?


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## The Abusement Park

Cucumber said:


> where do you guys think Newcastle will finish?




Depends if they bring anyone else in. I would assume they finish somewhere between 12-17th.


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## spintheblackcircle

15th or so


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## spintheblackcircle

blender said:


> if sigurdsson leaves, i can't see swansea having any hope of staying up.


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## Savant

Cucumber said:


> where do you guys think Newcastle will finish?




Newcastle will be safe unless Rafa leaves. Swansea, Bournemouth, Burnley as well as the three that came up are likely in more trouble than they are.


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## jacobhockey13

Savant said:


> Newcastle will be safe unless Rafa leaves. Swansea, Bournemouth, Burnley as well as the three that came up are likely in more trouble than they are.




Rafa isn't perfect. I say that even though I have a huge amount of respect and gratitude to him. He can't work miracles and I honestly think as a Newcastle fan that the squad is weaker than most think it is.

Lascelles is massively overrated. Dummet sucks (ball retention) and will be exposed defensively in the Premiership against better attackers as he was two years ago. That's two of our four starting defenders who I don't rate. I like Mbemba but God knows Benitez won't play him. 

If Shelvey or Ritchie get injured then we will struggle to create anything. I don't think De Jong will be able to pick up the slack. 

Whether or not Gayle succeeds will be interesting.

The squad's incredibly fragile at this point. It's going to be rough going; some buys could change that but if we're done for the summer then everybody should expect Newcastle to be in a relegation battle.


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## spintheblackcircle

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...o-tottenham-major-premier-league-title-rivals

JosÃ© Mourinho has identified Tottenham as strong rivals to win the Premier League title next season and compared his challenge at Manchester United to the one he faced previously at Real Madrid, insisting the club had been left behind in â€œthe evolution of footballâ€ when he succeeded Louis van Gaal last summer.

Asked how he assessed his chances of making United champions again, Mourinho said: â€œI donâ€™t think we are big candidates for the title but we are [candidates]. Everybody speaks about the dimension of the investment at Man City [so far just below Â£220m] but there is another team that I feel the dimension of their investment is also phenomenal â€“ Tottenham. Until now they spent zero pounds, right? They keep everybody they want to keep. They keep Dele Alli, [Harry] Kane and [Toby] Alderweireld, they keep Eric Dier, they keep everyone they want to keep.

â€œThey sold Kyle Walker I think because they wanted to sell. And probably because they think Trippier is as good as Walker. And heâ€™s younger than Walker. Chelsea are champions and they buy now. We are halfway through the market and they buy [Antonio] RÃ¼diger, [TiemouÃ©] Bakayoko and [Ãlvaro] Morata. So every club makes different kinds of investments but all of them are investing a lot to win the titl.â€


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## Havre

Yes. Trippier is several months younger than Walker. Haha.

Mourinho has often said fairly nice things about Spurs for some reason.

Personally I would be quite surprised if Spurs end up in the top four. Could see it being a fight for 5th with Arsenal. But anyone in the top 6 could win it with some luck.


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## Evilo

Havre said:


> Mourinho has often said fairly nice things about Spurs for some reason.




Reason being that he hates Guardiola, Wenger and Conte. And he is not allowed to say good things about Liverpool.


----------



## Evilo

Read somewhere Guardiola has spent more than 1 billion on players between Barca, Bayern and City.
Meanwhile Mourinho cirticized the transfer fees of other teams. 
He, who signed Ronaldo and Kaka (back then 2 of the top 3 most expensive transfers of alltime) in the same summer and failed to win the league.
He, who signed Pogba for the current most expensive fee in history and didn't end up top 4.


----------



## phisherman

Evilo said:


> Read somewhere Guardiola has spent more than 1 billion on players between Barca, Bayern and City.
> Meanwhile Mourinho cirticized the transfer fees of other teams.
> He, who signed Ronaldo and Kaka (back then 2 of the top 3 most expensive transfers of alltime) in the same summer and failed to win the league.
> He, who signed Pogba for the current most expensive fee in history and didn't end up top 4.




A synonym for hypocrite is Mourinho.


----------



## bleedblue1223

I don't get why people don't just tune him out. All he does is play mind games.


----------



## East Coast Bias

bleedblue1223 said:


> I don't get why people don't just tune him out. All he does is play mind games.




It's hilarious when he's over your club. Its quite obvious he's trolling.

He made Klopp lose his mind the other day and start whining about how Sevilla was so much better than Ajax in comparing their Europa finals and blah blah blah.


----------



## YNWA14

Havre said:


> Yes. Trippier is several months younger than Walker. Haha.
> 
> Mourinho has often said fairly nice things about Spurs for some reason.
> 
> Personally I would be quite surprised if Spurs end up in the top four. Could see it being a fight for 5th with Arsenal. But anyone in the top 6 could win it with some luck.




This is how I feel also. United, Chelsea, Liverpool and City for the top 4 in basically any order with Spurs, Arsenal and maybe Everton fighting for 5/6/7.


----------



## Adonis Creed

My predictions for the next season.

20. Huddersfield 
19. Stoke
18. Swansea
17. Crystal Palace
16. Burnley
15. Brighton
14. Bournemouth
13. Newcastle
12. West Ham
11. Watford
10. WBA
9. Southampton
8. Leicester
7. Spurs
6. Everton
5. Liverpool
4. Arsenal
3. Chelsea
2. United
1. Man City


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

spintheblackcircle said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...o-tottenham-major-premier-league-title-rivals
> 
> JosÃ© Mourinho has identified Tottenham as strong rivals to win the Premier League title next season and compared his challenge at Manchester United to the one he faced previously at Real Madrid, insisting the club had been left behind in â€œthe evolution of footballâ€ when he succeeded Louis van Gaal last summer.
> 
> Asked how he assessed his chances of making United champions again, Mourinho said: â€œI donâ€™t think we are big candidates for the title but we are [candidates]. Everybody speaks about the dimension of the investment at Man City [so far just below Â£220m] but there is another team that I feel the dimension of their investment is also phenomenal â€“ Tottenham. Until now they spent zero pounds, right? They keep everybody they want to keep. They keep Dele Alli, [Harry] Kane and [Toby] Alderweireld, they keep Eric Dier, they keep everyone they want to keep.
> 
> â€œThey sold Kyle Walker I think because they wanted to sell. And probably because they think Trippier is as good as Walker. And heâ€™s younger than Walker. Chelsea are champions and they buy now. We are halfway through the market and they buy [Antonio] RÃ¼diger, [TiemouÃ©] Bakayoko and [Ãlvaro] Morata. So every club makes different kinds of investments but all of them are investing a lot to win the title.â€




What's his hidden agenda? 

Judging this window so far, I'm still quite confident that Spurs can finish third, behind Man C and Chelsea. Liverpool and Man U still have shoddy defenses as of right now. Arsenal is way too hard to judge where they will end up.


----------



## bleedblue1223

TopKex said:


> What's his hidden agenda?
> 
> Judging this window so far, I'm still quite confident that Spurs can finish third, behind Man C and Chelsea. Liverpool and Man U still have shoddy defenses as of right now. Arsenal is way too hard to judge where they will end up.




It's not hidden, it's plain to see, he's building in excuses for when he fails to win.


----------



## Havre

Evilo said:


> Reason being that he hates Guardiola, Wenger and Conte. And he is not allowed to say good things about Liverpool.




Long long before Guardiola and Conte came to England. And long before he wasnÂ´t allowed to speak nicely about Liverpool. This is not exactly the first time.

Of course he met with people from Spurs before taking the Chelsea job. He could very well have ended up at Spurs if Porto hadnÂ´t gone on that run. DonÂ´t know if that is part of the reason.


----------



## Peen

I dont see how the spurs drop to 7th when they had the best defense in the league and have only lost walker.


----------



## YNWA14

Peen said:


> I dont see how the spurs drop to 7th when they had the best defense in the league and have only lost walker.




They're a solid team but they are also the only team in the top 6 that isn't making improvements, and sold one of their better players.

I can't see them dropping to 7th but stranger things have happened.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Curtinho said:


> I can't see them dropping to 7th but stranger things have happened.




The poster above.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Cahill is officially our new captain, good choice! Azpilicueta as vice-captain is also terrific. I'm very pleased.


----------



## YEM

I can easily see spurs dropping a bit with the Wembley factor and perhaps a further focus on Europe but 7th place last year had 25 less points than they did this season, that's a hell of a drop off


----------



## bleedblue1223

In all honesty, the top 6 is always a toss-up and it comes down to health and consistency, and then there's Everton. I don't think many people had Chelsea and Tottenham as the 1-2 finishers prior to the start of last season.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Curtinho said:


> They're a solid team but they are also the only team in the top 6 that isn't making improvements, and sold one of their better players..




Who says all these purchases means improvement? 

And of the 10 field players, Walker was probably 8th or 9th best, IMO.


----------



## YNWA14

spintheblackcircle said:


> Who says all these purchases means improvement?
> 
> And of the 10 field players, Walker was probably 8th or 9th best, IMO.




Well, it's all speculation. I'm a big believer in unity and teamwork over pure talent, but if you get the right pieces and have time to integrate them (and a lot of these purchases have been done early) then I think most people would see the moves that the 'big teams' are making to be improvements. On top of this most of the big teams had pretty big transitions last summer whereas this year they'll have had time with the philosophies, tactics and managers and have been able to mesh more.

City adding Mendy, Walker, Silva and Ederson can only be seen as an upgrade, no?
Same with Liverpool adding Salah and most likely at least van Dijk while also having Mane all season (in theory).
Chelsea are already very strong but have added some good players too in Morata, Bakayoko and Rudiger.
United have only really added Lukaku and Lindelof, but Lukaku should be a good boost for Mourinho's style.

All of this added to some of the premium talents that all of these teams have coming up. Tottenham have mostly just stayed the same which may or may not be the right choice as they have a strong, young core but it's not like the big teams are making wholesale changes this summer. I think it's going to be even more competitive at the top than last season.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Weren't City and United predicted to dominate on these boards for last season?


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

bleedblue1223 said:


> Weren't City and United predicted to dominate on these boards for last season?




City definitely was, I remember people being apprehensive about United. City were supposed to walk the league


----------



## YNWA14

bleedblue1223 said:


> Weren't City and United predicted to dominate on these boards for last season?




I had Chelsea winning the title and City coming in 2nd IIRC. I think I might have had United in the top 4? They had a pretty unlucky season though...as much as I hate to admit that.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> City definitely was, I remember people being apprehensive about United. City were supposed to walk the league




Yeah, I knew City was, but couldn't remember United. I think some thought they'd be great and some were pretty skeptical.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Everybodyyyyyyyyyyyy was riding City last year.

Except the one poster who kept bombing the thread calling him Pep Jackson and a fraud.

Lol that was classic.


----------



## Vamos Rafa

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Cahill is officially our new captain, good choice! Azpilicueta as vice-captain is also terrific. I'm very pleased.




I'm very surprised that Fabregas wasn't named VC. I always put him as captain on FIFA/PES when JT is not playing


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Vamos Rafa said:


> I'm very surprised that Fabregas wasn't named VC. I always put him as captain on FIFA/PES when JT is not playing




I figured it'd be Azpi or Luiz, so this move makes sense to me. I always used Azpi as captain when JT was on the bench in FIFA


----------



## Nalens Oga

I have Cristoph Kramer captaining my Prem side in season 3 lol until Tyias Browning can take over once he's 25 and then hopefully one of the Carrick/Jagielka/Terry regens lol.

Anyways, I'm guessing they didn't make it Cesc as VC because Bakayoko can legitimately displace him in the starting 11 and Matic is technically still there (and I hope he stays at least for this season).


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Conte with the roasts:

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...-daniel-levy-transfer-criticism-a3597151.html


----------



## YEM

TopKex said:


> Conte with the roasts:
> 
> http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...-daniel-levy-transfer-criticism-a3597151.html



I think Conte missed the point of Levy's comments
Conte said:


> "Every team has to understand what their ambitions are. If their ambitions are to fight for the title or win the Champions League, you must buy expensive players. Otherwise you continue to stay in your level. It's simple."



yet:


----------



## bleedblue1223

And yet, if they fail in Champions League, it's no big deal. If they don't win a Cup, it's no big deal.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

bleedblue1223 said:


> And yet, if they fail in Champions League, it's no big deal. If they don't win a Cup, it's no big deal.




It isn't hard to understand that spending more money raises expectations. I also think Conte is underselling their ambitions a tad. Spurs performance in the european competitions was absolutely a tragedy. 

The price of that XI above is just filthy.


----------



## YNWA14

Yeah that's some damned fine business by Tottenham.

That said they did pay more for some other players who haven't panned out, and their performance in Europe has been pretty underwhelming.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Great starting 11, but what's the cost of their bench/reserves? Oh Sissoko lol.


----------



## YEM

TopKex said:


> It isn't hard to understand that spending more money raises expectations. I also think Conte is underselling their ambitions a tad. Spurs performance in the european competitions was absolutely a tragedy.



agreed on all points
I just think Conte's wrong; spurs already have some very expensive players in the squad, they just didn't buy them:
http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...-less-than-current-market-value-a3447646.html


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Conte did say if he could buy any striker in the world it would be Kane.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Yeah, he was very complimentary of them. The only one he was critical of was Levy for not spending more on upgrading the squad to get to the next level.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

Just reading this thread, hadn't heard about the NBC paywall yet. That's garbage.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

spintheblackcircle said:


> http://www.espnfc.co.uk/english-premier-league/story/3140346/premier-league-fixtures-2017-18





I just counted 11 for Arsenal between 11/28 and 1/1

That's insanity


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

bleedblue1223 said:


> Yeah, he was very complimentary of them. The only one he was critical of was Levy for not spending more on upgrading the squad to get to the next level.




Window is still open though. Everything has pointed towards Pochettino wanting to assess the squad, especially their youth players, before making any moves.


----------



## Havre

I guess it is difficult to graps the concept of making money before you spend it. CanÂ´t expect a football manager to understand high level financial theory. Fair enough.

City, Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea (with Costa and I donÂ´t know what the deal is with Matic) had big holes they had to fill. Completely different to Spurs. All makes sense to me.

Personally I donÂ´t think Chelsea are any stronger than last year (assuming Costa and Matic leave). I would argue they are weaker - at least until the new players settle.


----------



## Adonis Creed

Havre said:


> I guess it is difficult to graps the concept of making money before you spend it. CanÃ‚Â´t expect a football manager to understand high level financial theory. Fair enough.
> 
> City, Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea (with Costa and I donÃ‚Â´t know what the deal is with Matic) had big holes they had to fill. Completely different to Spurs. All makes sense to me.
> 
> Personally I donÃ‚Â´t think Chelsea is any stronger than last year (assuming Costa and Matic leave). I would argue they are weaker - at least until the new players settle.




Chelsea has no depth....with Champs League etc...it's gonna be tough
United is pretty strong all-around
City still has Stones as starting CB...LOLLLLL
Spurs is pretty strong...but no depht and 1 injury away 
Arsenal as no frking CM ...
Pool won Asian trophy...that's the only trophy they can hope for.


----------



## East Coast Bias

IU Hawks fan said:


> Just reading this thread, hadn't heard about the NBC paywall yet. That's garbage.




Yeah it's actually worse than I initially thought. 

Doesn't seem like you can cut the cord - you can only buy the package in addition to having NBCSN on cable. 

I need to read more on this to figure out if I need it for United matches, or if I have to go to a bar a few times a season


----------



## StatesideSensFan

East Coast Bias said:


> Yeah it's actually worse than I initially thought.
> 
> Doesn't seem like you can cut the cord - you can only buy the package in addition to having NBCSN on cable.
> 
> I need to read more on this to figure out if I need it for United matches, or if I have to go to a bar a few times a season




yea right, like most United games wont be on one of the NBC properties.
you should just goto the bar a couple of times a year.


----------



## Cassano

I think UCL can **** up Spurs season, but this is me speaking as a Spurs hater. They lack the overall squad depth to compete in both competitions at once. Gonna lead to injuries and reliance on a shady bench. They should just go all out in the League - they've shown that they're good enough to win it.


----------



## bluesfan94

DrRecchi said:


> I think UCL can **** up Spurs season, but this is me speaking as a Spurs hater. They lack the overall squad depth to compete in both competitions at once. Gonna lead to injuries and reliance on a shady bench. They should just go all out in the League - they've shown that they're good enough to win it.




They could just do what they did last year and do awful in Europe.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

DrRecchi said:


> I think UCL can **** up Spurs season, but this is me speaking as a Spurs hater. They lack the overall squad depth to compete in both competitions at once. Gonna lead to injuries and reliance on a shady bench. They should just go all out in the League - they've shown that they're good enough to win it.




Once again, the transfer window is still open.


----------



## Havre

I don't see how that is a very good analysis of what happened with Spurs last season.

The same players finished the season fantastically. So they somehow were able to recover from fatigue during the season? Don't believe that for a second.

Depth isn't that bad. It isn't as good as RM etc. of course, but that will never be the case. Pochettino for large stretches didn't on purpose rotate much. Still they finished the season almost perfectly so it is hard to criticize him much for the way he managed the squad.

I'm not sure if Spurs were mentally ready to play important games mid-week last fall. Also some key players injured during that time (Kane and Alderweireld). One might argue Spurs didn't have the depth to replace those players, but no-one except maybe BM and RM have the depth to replace their best players in a good way.


----------



## bluesfan94

Havre said:


> I don't see how that is a very good analysis of what happened with Spurs last season.
> 
> The same players finished the season fantastically. So they somehow were able to recover from fatigue during the season? Don't believe that for a second.
> 
> Depth isn't that bad. It isn't as good as RM etc. of course, but that will never be the case. Pochettino for large stretches didn't on purpose rotate much. Still they finished the season almost perfectly so it is hard to criticize him much for the way he managed the squad.
> 
> I'm not sure if Spurs were mentally ready to play important games mid-week last fall. Also some key players injured during that time (Kane and Alderweireld). One might argue Spurs didn't have the depth to replace those players, but no-one except maybe BM and RM have the depth to replace their best players in a good way.




To be fair, fatigue is a lot different when you're out of Europe and after the winter blitz of games


----------



## Havre

bluesfan94 said:


> To be fair, fatigue is a lot different when you're out of Europe and after the winter blitz of games




Spurs played in Europe until the end of February. They were in the FA cup until the semi's.

Basically every player in the starting line-up plays regularly for their national team.

Fatigue has nothing to do with losing to Monaco on the 14th of September. No player is already getting tired after 2-3 months like when Spurs played their worst football during that season. Fatigue hits you due to playing too much over time. And normally that means fizzling out at the end of the season - which the Spurs players didn't (some argue they did the year before when the last four league games got them only 2 points).

Realistically Spurs won't play in Europe much later than February anyway. So don't see the big difference from last season in that respect. Can the squad handle 5-6 matches more during the spring? Don't know.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

https://cartilagefreecaptain.sbnati...ew-stadium-safe-standing-hardware-south-stand

Standing terraces have been outlawed at major English football stadiums since the early 1990s in the wake of the Hillsborough disaster, much to the chagrin of many football fans who pine for the old days. Football stadiums are now by law â€œall-seaters,â€ which some argue diminish the atmosphere at grounds and also significantly reduce attendance numbers and income from tickets.

Tottenham Hotspur are building their new ground with that future law change in mind. A photo of safe standing terrace equipment installed at the new Spurs stadium was photographed and posted on Twitter yesterday, leading some to speculate that Spurs would be willing to consider standing terraces should the law allow it.



Tottenham responded to the above tweet with a tweet of its own, saying that it is â€œtrialingâ€ safe standing hardware, but also implying that the stadium will be constructed so that rail seating can be installed in the future, what they called â€œfuture proofing.â€


----------



## bluesfan94

Havre said:


> Spurs played in Europe until the end of February. They were in the FA cup until the semi's.
> 
> Basically every player in the starting line-up plays regularly for their national team.
> 
> Fatigue has nothing to do with losing to Monaco on the 14th of September. No player is already getting tired after 2-3 months like when Spurs played their worst football during that season. Fatigue hits you due to playing too much over time. And normally that means fizzling out at the end of the season - which the Spurs players didn't (some argue they did the year before when the last four league games got them only 2 points).
> 
> Realistically Spurs won't play in Europe much later than February anyway. So don't see the big difference from last season in that respect. Can the squad handle 5-6 matches more during the spring? Don't know.




I think the argument is that the Spurs lack of depth will hurt them in the winter busy period. Essentially, they were less fatigued as the season went on because the season, for them, was less busy. Yes they were in the FA Cup until the semis but by that point, it's really not that much of a constant hassle.


----------



## Havre

bluesfan94 said:


> I think the argument is that the Spurs lack of depth will hurt them in the winter busy period. Essentially, they were less fatigued as the season went on because the season, for them, was less busy. Yes they were in the FA Cup until the semis but by that point, it's really not that much of a constant hassle.




IÂ´m not sure when the busy winter period started (in your view), but when exactly did Spurs struggle? They won all 3 games during Christmas. The only bad spell Spurs had were in October (in terms of the league).

This idea that a fatigued squad can recover come March after being fatigued (which they never were) is also quite odd. If you have been pushing yourself too hard from September until end of February you arenÂ´t just going to recover in a week or two just because you got less mid week games in March. Just not how the human body works.

Not saying depth isnÂ´t important and Spurs did run out a gas somewhat the year before, but last season they didnÂ´t and it had certainly nothing to do with them not winning the league and/or not being very successful in Europe.


----------



## bluesfan94

Havre said:


> IÃ‚Â´m not sure when the busy winter period started (in your view), but when exactly did Spurs struggle? They won all 3 games during Christmas. The only bad spell Spurs had were in October (in terms of the league).
> 
> This idea that a fatigued squad can recover come March after being fatigued (which they never were) is also quite odd. If you have been pushing yourself too hard from September until end of February you arenÃ‚Â´t just going to recover in a week or two just because you got less mid week games in March. Just not how the human body works.
> 
> Not saying depth isnÃ‚Â´t important and Spurs did run out a gas somewhat the year before, but last season they didnÃ‚Â´t and it had certainly nothing to do with them not winning the league and/or not being very successful in Europe.




I take it you missed that I'm talking about the upcoming year. 

That actually is how the body works in my experience.


----------



## Havre

bluesfan94 said:


> I take it you missed that I'm talking about the upcoming year.
> 
> That actually is how the body works in my experience.




But if it didnÂ´t last year why should it this year?

If we are talking about the upcoming season as something unique that canÂ´t be discussed based on previous season - then you are right - I missed it.

So what is the point of depth then? Your team gets fatigued. You rest those players for 1 week (or so) and they are apparently good to go again. DonÂ´t know what to say. Fatigue is different than being tired.


----------



## bluesfan94

Havre said:


> But if it didnÃ‚Â´t last year why should it this year?
> 
> If we are talking about the upcoming season as something unique that canÃ‚Â´t be discussed based on previous season - then you are right - I missed it.
> 
> So what is the point of depth then? Your team gets fatigued. You rest those players for 1 week (or so) and they are apparently good to go again. DonÃ‚Â´t know what to say. Fatigue is different than being tired.




Well apparently fatigue just constantly builds up so maybe this year will be worse. 

Well I would think teams play Tottenham differently in the league this year at the start compared to last year plus I would imagine Tottenham might want to make it out of their group in CL and win a cup. I could be wrong.

Uh, yeah. That's the whole point of being able to rotate players. Congrats you figured it out.


----------



## Havre

Haha. You are trying hard. Summer break is longer than 1 week isn't it?

Yes. Because they didn't go through the group stages because the fatigue they suffered in September. Sorry the fatigue they will suffer this September since history is irrelevant. At least I'm learning.


----------



## Elliman

Fellaini to Gala done. 

United must have a deal in place for a central midfielder to let Fellaini go.


----------



## bluesfan94

Havre said:


> Haha. You are trying hard. Summer break is longer than 1 week isn't it?
> 
> Yes. Because they didn't go through the group stages because the fatigue they suffered in September. Sorry the fatigue they will suffer this September since history is irrelevant. At least I'm learning.




Are you intentionally being obtuse or are you actually just not getting what I'm saying?


----------



## Havre

bluesfan94 said:


> Are you intentionally being obtuse or are you actually just not getting what I'm saying?




I was kind of thinking the same.


----------



## Theon

Elliman said:


> Fellaini to Gala done.
> 
> United must have a deal in place for a central midfielder to let Fellaini go.




Dumb move to sell. Even if there's a new signing, Fellaini is versatile enough to have a spot on the team. We're paper thin at CM as is.


----------



## Edo

IU Hawks fan said:


> I just counted 11 for Arsenal between 11/28 and 1/1
> 
> That's insanity




This is why English teams can't compete in Europe. They're at such a massive disadvantage. German/Italian/Spanish teams have it so much easier.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Phil Jones suspended 2 matches for "abusing" a drug tester over an argument directly after United's win over Ajax. Supposedly he and Blind wanted to take the team photo and spray some champagne first, but the doping officer demanded the test be taken right after the match ended.

That's he and Bailly now suspended for the CL opener.


----------



## oilers92

East Coast Bias said:


> Phil Jones suspended 2 matches for "abusing" a drug tester over an argument directly after United's win over Ajax. Supposedly he and Blind wanted to take the team photo and spray some champagne first, but the doping officer demanded the test be taken right after the match ended.
> 
> That's he and Bailly now suspended for the CL opener.




the photo he was pissed about was the one they took with the Manchester a city united banner, how any drug officer thought not letting a player who didn't even play not take that is beyond me.


----------



## East Coast Bias

oilers92 said:


> the photo he was pissed about was the one they took with the Manchester a city united banner, how any drug officer thought not letting a player who didn't even play not take that is beyond me.




Yup. If that's the true story, in the context of the events around then, that is absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## oilers92

East Coast Bias said:


> Yup. If that's the true story, in the context of the events around then, that is absolutely ridiculous.




hes not in the team photo with the banner so there could be something to it, either way whats 10 minuets to take a photo?


----------



## Live in the Now

There will be bans this year for players caught diving to win a penalty or get their opponent a red card.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Remy is still on Chelsea surprisingly. Probably don't need him anymore even if Costa leaves this window, he's been rumoured as a Newcastle target.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Nalens Oga said:


> Remy is still on Chelsea surprisingly. Probably don't need him anymore even if Costa leaves this window, he's been rumoured as a Newcastle target.




Fine option as third striker.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

I have a weird feeling Dele is going to struggle this year.


----------



## Cassano

Live in the Now said:


> There will be bans this year for players caught diving to win a penalty or get their opponent a red card.




Victor Moses cried reading this.


----------



## Cassano

Alexis training in London with Arsenal gear. Looks like he'll be staying for the season.


----------



## Havre

spintheblackcircle said:


> I have a weird feeling Dele is going to struggle this year.




Most Spurs-fans I know "in real life" are generally far too optimistic on behalf of the team. I donÂ´t know how many years in the 00s we were just a left winger from challenging for the title. However, online I find most Spurs-fans depressingly pessimistic (not all of course).

Alli doesnÂ´t worry me. Mentally he seems to be exceptionally strong. He wonÂ´t score 18 goals every year though - that is basically impossible. His overall play should still be getting better.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

spintheblackcircle said:


> I have a weird feeling Dele is going to struggle this year.




Not sure man. If anything, he should thrive at Wembley's larger pitch thanks to how he plays.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Poch on summer transfer struggles:

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/po...s-212933054.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=ma


----------



## Nalens Oga

I'm not an Everton fan but oh man I'm excited, if they get Sigurdsson and if Davies or someone takes another big step forward then they could be a top 4 team. Either way, I hope they spoil the year for one of the big clubs by finishing ahead of them even if they finish 5th or 6th.


----------



## YNWA14

Nalens Oga said:


> I'm not an Everton fan but oh man I'm excited, *if they get Sigurdsson and if Davies or someone takes another big step forward then they could be a top 4 team*. Either way, I hope they spoil the year for one of the big clubs by finishing ahead of them even if they finish 5th or 6th.


----------



## Havre

IÂ´m not going to argue it is impossible for Everton to end up in the top 4. It is possible, but I really donÂ´t understand why that should happen.

Love Pickford. Potentially very good. So assume he lives up to his potential. Top 3-4 in the league, but he only balances out what Chelsea, Utd and Spurs already got in that case - an excellent goalie. We will see what happens with City. Everton will then have a better goalkeeper than Liverpool, but that might be the only team they got an advantage on among the other top teams.

Keane is good, but he is hardly any better than what most of the other teams in the top already got.

Klaassen is also good, but he would hardly even be on the bench for teams like Liverpool and City who are stacked in those positions.

Sandro has been talked about for years. Really donÂ´t understand how they got him so cheap, but it is 99.999% certain he will be a significant downgrade on Lukaku.

Rooney I donÂ´t even really bother. Not even remotely close to the quality needed for a top 4 club.

To me Everton is weaker now than they were last season because of Lukaku. With the new owners IÂ´m sure they will become stronger longer term, but I donÂ´t see it this year. Even if Koeman is better than Martinez and that they should improve slightly just because he now has had more time.


----------



## Cassano

Man I still can't believe how badly Coleman fell off from that 2013-14 season. He was godly that season.


----------



## johnsherdy10

Nalens Oga said:


> I'm not an Everton fan but oh man I'm excited, if they get Sigurdsson and if Davies or someone takes another big step forward then they could be a top 4 team. Either way, I hope they spoil the year for one of the big clubs by finishing ahead of them even if they finish 5th or 6th.




In this season, Everton but many players so excited. The championship race is increasingly attractive 
Pickford, Michael Keane,Schneiderlin


----------



## Live in the Now

Havre said:


> IÂ´m not going to argue it is impossible for Everton to end up in the top 4. It is possible, but I really donÂ´t understand why that should happen.
> 
> Love Pickford. Potentially very good. So assume he lives up to his potential. Top 3-4 in the league, but he only balances out what Chelsea, Utd and Spurs already got in that case - an excellent goalie. We will see what happens with City. Everton will then have a better goalkeeper than Liverpool, but that might be the only team they got an advantage on among the other top teams.
> 
> Keane is good, but he is hardly any better than what most of the other teams in the top already got.
> 
> Klaassen is also good, but he would hardly even be on the bench for teams like Liverpool and City who are stacked in those positions.
> 
> Sandro has been talked about for years. Really donÂ´t understand how they got him so cheap, but it is 99.999% certain he will be a significant downgrade on Lukaku.
> 
> Rooney I donÂ´t even really bother. Not even remotely close to the quality needed for a top 4 club.
> 
> To me Everton is weaker now than they were last season because of Lukaku. With the new owners IÂ´m sure they will become stronger longer term, but I donÂ´t see it this year. Even if Koeman is better than Martinez and that they should improve slightly just because he now has had more time.




I don't want to hate because I know coming from me it's going to sound like hate. And I do hate Everton to be fair, but that's never stopped me from rating players like Herrera and Lukaku who play for clubs I hate. They simply don't have any players at their club who are as good as the best players at top six clubs. Not even close in fact. Even Pickford who is a very good keeper didn't have a better season than Mignolet last year. Their best player is probably Gueye, who would be the seventh or eighth best player on these other teams. Or even less and in some cases way less. Sigurdsson, I have to refer to where Spurs finished when he was there. He was well beaten for that creative spot by Eriksen, so they sold him. The idea of paying 50 million for him is the most incredible thing I have ever heard. 

So no offense intended but people shouldn't go overboard about Everton. They lost their only player who could start every game for a top English team, they may have added a goalkeeper who can as well. They will finish around where they finished last season. They're not going to compete for top four, and their board probably knows that, but they want to get in the Europa League as it's an avenue for them to get in the CL.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Live in the Now said:


> I don't want to hate because I know coming from me it's going to sound like hate. And I do hate Everton to be fair, but that's never stopped me from rating players like Herrera and Lukaku who play for clubs I hate. They simply don't have any players at their club who are as good as the best players at top six clubs. Not even close in fact. Even Pickford who is a very good keeper didn't have a better season than Mignolet last year. Their best player is probably Gueye, who would be the seventh or eighth best player on these other teams. Or even less and in some cases way less. Sigurdsson, I have to refer to where Spurs finished when he was there. He was well beaten for that creative spot by Eriksen, so they sold him. The idea of paying 50 million for him is the most incredible thing I have ever heard.
> 
> So no offense intended but people shouldn't go overboard about Everton. They lost their only player who could start every game for a top English team, they may have added a goalkeeper who can as well. They will finish around where they finished last season. They're not going to compete for top four, and their board probably knows that, but they want to get in the Europa League as it's an avenue for them to get in the CL.




I do think you are underrating Sigurdsson quite alot, otherwise I agree.


----------



## Havre

Offense? In general then I guess - as you are basically saying the same thing as me.


----------



## Adonis Creed

Live in the Now said:


> I don't want to hate because I know coming from me it's going to sound like hate. And I do hate Everton to be fair, but that's never stopped me from rating players like Herrera and Lukaku who play for clubs I hate. They simply don't have any players at their club who are as good as the best players at top six clubs. Not even close in fact. E*ven Pickford who is a very good keeper didn't have a better season than Mignolet last year*. Their best player is probably Gueye, who would be the seventh or eighth best player on these other teams. Or even less and in some cases way less. Sigurdsson, I have to refer to where Spurs finished when he was there. He was well beaten for that creative spot by Eriksen, so they sold him. The idea of paying 50 million for him is the most incredible thing I have ever heard.
> 
> So no offense intended but people shouldn't go overboard about Everton. They lost their only player who could start every game for a top English team, they may have added a goalkeeper who can as well. They will finish around where they finished last season. They're not going to compete for top four, and their board probably knows that, but they want to get in the Europa League as it's an avenue for them to get in the CL.




Tough to be worse than Mignolet....

maybe Cardinal from Nice and Guzan... he's just awfully bad


----------



## Burner Account

Proposition Joe said:


> Tough to be worse than Mignolet....
> 
> maybe Cardinal from Nice and Guzan... he's just awfully bad




2016-17 Mignolet was a lot better than 2015-16 Mignolet tbh


----------



## Live in the Now

Mignolet had zero mistakes and won Liverpool games last year. There's a reason they aren't buying a keeper.


----------



## YNWA14

Mignolet was one of the best keepers in the PL last season after he took over for Karius. His issue has always been consistency and concentration. If he can continue to remain focused and confident he's just as good as the other top keepers outside of his distribution.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

http://soccer.nbcsports.com/2017/08/03/newcastle-usmnt-defender-deandre-yedlin-injures-hamstring/

DeAndre Yedlin will miss the start of the 2017-18 Premier League season and he may not be ready for the the USMNTâ€™s two crucial 2018 World Cup qualifiers in September.

The Newcastle United right back injured his hamstring in a preseason game against Mainz last week and Yedlin, 24, will now be out until the end of August.


----------



## Havre

Mignolet is not as good as DDG, Lloris and Courtois.

I would challenge any Pool-fan to find more than one neutral that have watched more than 5 games of football that would say Mignolet is just as good (or were for that part of the season last year). Distribution aside.

Technically he is so far behind it isnÂ´t even funny. And I donÂ´t mean technically as in kicking the ball, but the way he moves. He is however exceptionally good at sensing things - which balances it up too a certain extent. If Mignolet had the athleticism of DDG he would have been the best in the world.

But I would also agree that he isnÂ´t the joke he often is made out to be. He is good, but never the less a weak spot compared to the other "top" clubs (not sure with City - we will see).


----------



## Live in the Now

Havre said:


> Mignolet is not as good as DDG, Lloris and Courtois.
> 
> I would challenge any Pool-fan to find more than one neutral that have watched more than 5 games of football that would say Mignolet is just as good (or were for that part of the season last year). Distribution aside.
> 
> Technically he is so far behind it isnÂ´t even funny. And I donÂ´t mean technically as in kicking the ball, but the way he moves. He is however exceptionally good at sensing things - which balances it up too a certain extent. If Mignolet had the athleticism of DDG he would have been the best in the world.
> 
> But I would also agree that he isnÂ´t the joke he often is made out to be. He is good, but never the less a weak spot compared to the other "top" clubs (not sure with City - we will see).




I don't disagree.

He still had a great season.


----------



## YNWA14

Mignolet's best attribute might be his reflexes; not really sure what you're getting at there. He's prone to lapses in concentration but I challenge you to watch video of him and DDG last season and compare the mind blowing saves they made -- Mignolet was right up there with him. Some of the saves he made were absolutely out of this world.

Nobody is saying he's as good as they are because you have to have track record for that, but if he continues the way he did last season he can certainly throw his name in the hat with those guys at the top.


----------



## Burner Account

Mignolet's biggest problem in 2015-16 was communication and decisiveness on set pieces. He improved markedly there last season.

He is also pretty impressive on penalties IMO.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Messy podcast episode of Football Weekly from The Guardian imo.

Also, would Swansea be relegation favourites if it weren't for Huddersfield and Brighton managing to make their way up?


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Nalens Oga said:


> Messy podcast episode of Football Weekly from The Guardian imo.
> 
> Also, would Swansea be relegation favourites if it weren't for Huddersfield and Brighton managing to make their way up?




Who would be replacing Huddersfield and Brighton?


----------



## The Abusement Park

Havre said:


> *Mignolet is not as good as DDG, Lloris and Courtois.
> *
> I would challenge any Pool-fan to find more than one neutral that have watched more than 5 games of football that would say Mignolet is just as good (or were for that part of the season last year). Distribution aside.
> 
> Technically he is so far behind it isnÃ‚Â´t even funny. And I donÃ‚Â´t mean technically as in kicking the ball, but the way he moves. He is however exceptionally good at sensing things - which balances it up too a certain extent. If Mignolet had the athleticism of DDG he would have been the best in the world.
> 
> But I would also agree that he isnÃ‚Â´t the joke he often is made out to be. He is good, but never the less a weak spot compared to the other "top" clubs (not sure with City - we will see).




Where did he say he was? Mignolet had a great season last year and it was a real bounce back season for him after 15/16.

Clearly DDG, Lloris and Courtois are the class of the BPL but he has the ability to be a top 4-7 goalie if he could sort out his concentration issues.


----------



## Havre

The Abusement Park said:


> Where did he say he was? Mignolet had a great season last year and it was a real bounce back season for him after 15/16.
> 
> Clearly DDG, Lloris and Courtois are the class of the BPL but he has the ability to be a top 4-7 goalie if he could sort out his concentration issues.




In his post?



Curtinho said:


> Mignolet was one of the best keepers in the PL last season after he took over for Karius. His issue has always been consistency and concentration. If he can continue to remain focused and confident *he's just as good as the other top keepers outside of his distribution.*


----------



## YNWA14

Sure, if we take out everything else said and isolate one part of one sentence in a discussion about a player we can make it look like someone said anything, I guess.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Have a question maybe you guys can help me with. I'm planning on flying out to London sometime early 2018, then potentially heading up to Liverpool to catch another match at Anfield. 

I checked the 2018 schedule, and all the games are listed as Saturday lunchtime kickoffs. My question is, are these scheduled games essentially just placeholders before they're moved around based on TV alottment, etc? Can't imagine all the matches are scheduled the same day, right?


----------



## Live in the Now

Yes, they all change. They move them something like one or two months before the game, based on European participation for some weeks and things of that nature.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Live in the Now said:


> Yes, they all change. They move them something like one or two months before the game, based on European participation for some weeks and things of that nature.




Figured as much, thanks.


----------



## Havre

Curtinho said:


> Sure, if we take out everything else said and isolate one part of one sentence in a discussion about a player we can make it look like someone said anything, I guess.




Come on. Where did I misrepresent what you said?


----------



## Savant

Jersey Fresh said:


> Have a question maybe you guys can help me with. I'm planning on flying out to London sometime early 2018, then potentially heading up to Liverpool to catch another match at Anfield.
> 
> I checked the 2018 schedule, and all the games are listed as Saturday lunchtime kickoffs. My question is, are these scheduled games essentially just placeholders before they're moved around based on TV alottment, etc? Can't imagine all the matches are scheduled the same day, right?




You are going to be at the mercy of the networks. Choose wisely.


----------



## Havre

Live in the Now said:


> Yes, they all change. They move them something like one or two months before the game, based on European participation for some weeks and things of that nature.




Correct. Nightmare for fans.

I do understand that it probably canÂ´t be as rigid as for example the NHL schedule, but quite ridiculous how they move games around.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Havre said:


> Correct. Nightmare for fans.
> 
> I do understand that it probably canÂ´t be as rigid as for example the NHL schedule, but quite ridiculous how they move games around.




Yeah, it's like college football. Sometimes you won't know the game time until the week of, and with most college towns, it can require a 2+ hour drive for a lot of fans.


----------



## YNWA14

Havre said:


> Come on. Where did I misrepresent what you said?




I used a qualifier that Mignolet has not yet met. The level he was playing at last season was absolutely at the level of the top keepers in the league and not only did the eye test support it, but basically every statistical measure did also. He won games for Liverpool and had none of the liability that he has had in previous seasons.

With that said I didn't outright say he's as good as they are. I said IF he can continue with that, remain confident and focused, he'd be right up there with them.

Any keeper, or player really, can have a great streak or stretch. The thing that really separates the elite from just being 'great' or 'very good' is consistency.


----------



## Havre

I included your qualifier in my reply. I didn't bother to repeat that in my second reply to the other poster since my first reply could be seen just a few posts earlier. If anything he/she would be the one trying to sensationalize/misrepresent things - not me (at least not this time - I'm guilty of being a bit quick myself occasionally of course).


----------



## Adonis Creed

Chelsea diving...never stop


----------



## Cassano

Arsenal really do love Wembley.


----------



## Adonis Creed

Xhaka and Seo we're wonderful.

Xhaka took 4-5months to adopt to BPL but now he's very very very good. 

Chelsea without Hazard are garbage.


----------



## Peen

Proposition Joe said:


> Xhaka and Seo we're wonderful.
> 
> Xhaka took 4-5months to adopt to BPL but now he's very very very good.
> 
> Chelsea without Hazard are garbage.




Definitely we are. 

Our weaknesses are clear. Blessing in disguise loss.. these last two to arsenal. Red cards in both, both losses

Still will finish ahead of arsenal in standings, but we need improvements clearly


----------



## Adonis Creed

Peen said:


> Definitely we are.
> 
> Our weaknesses are clear. Blessing in disguise loss.. these last two to arsenal. Red cards in both, both losses
> 
> *Still will finish ahead of arsenal in standings, but we need improvements clearly[*/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> We'll see but Arsenal will be focusing only for League, gonna be closer than last season.
> 
> Well play Youngsters and 2nd team in Europe plus League Cup.
> 
> I think City or United will finish 1-2...but 3-4-5-6 is tough to know.
> 
> 
> Good season ahead with so many ??? around the TOP 6.


----------



## S E P H

You know I didn't watch the Sevilla game so I can't comment on that, but Xhaka so far in the rest of the preseason friendlies has been utterly superb. Not only that, but showed more of his talent than any time last year, especially his long shot capability which Arsenal has sorely lacked. I will say that I am more inclined to buy a Xhaka kit at the moment over an Alexis and this is with Sanchez even staying for the next full year. 

Ox also abused Chelsea's left-hand side, it's not the end of the world if we do decide to sell him, but he's been quite good in the preseason as well (which is a good sign I hope).

One aspect Arsenal is really lacking which I've seen under Lacazette is a CAM who can link up the midfield with the strikers and wingers. With Giroud, they normally kick long balls where he holds up the play. It works, but Giroud in the box is not consistent enough to be a CL starting striker. With Lacazette, as LITN explained he's like Aguero who relies on running, consistent scoring, and superb technical skills. One problem with Alexandre though is he is NOT nearly as fast as Aguero thus will never reach his talent in what I've seen so far. 

Now back to the CAM, Ozil can most definitely do this as he has the talent, but I suggest you need a hard working CAM who has an engine, but the technical skill as well. Someone like Isco for instance (if we disregard unavailable players like Modric/Silva) would have been perfect partner for Lacazette.

E: That was a wonderfully reffed and entertaining game. Morata sucks, if there is a player who can bust in the future he would be on the top of my list.


----------



## bleedblue1223

It's a meaningless trophy, whether you win or lose it, I just hope the game sent a message to the board to buy some quality and some depth.


----------



## S E P H

It is a meaningless trophy, but it's also one you would like to win so lets not discredit it entirely.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Morata sucks because of bad finishing as a substitute in one game...his first 'competitive' one for Chelsea  ? I hope you don't do your prospect scouting using that philosophy.


----------



## bleedblue1223

S E P H said:


> It is a meaningless trophy, but it's also one you would like to win so lets not discredit it entirely.




I'm not saying it's completely nothing, but it's a glorified pre-season match. Arsenal have won 3 of the past 4, it really doesn't mean much of anything. Ox always seems to play well in them against Chelsea though, still remember that goal from 2015.

That match did highlight to concerns with Chelsea though, that many have said. They need depth first and foremost, another CM that can play against the big teams and not be exposed defensively, 2 additional wing-backs, and while we'll always be pretty reliant on Hazard, we need to find a piece in the front 3 that can reasonably replace him when he is out. Willian and Pedro are good robin's to Hazard's batman, but we need something better there if Hazard ever gets hurt or is in poor form.

Morata will be fine, but he still needs some time to adapt. Really wish our board would've been more aggressive early so the new players could adapt, but I just hope that they realize that they need more players.


----------



## S E P H

Nalens Oga said:


> Morata sucks because of bad finishing as a substitute in one game...his first 'competitive' one for Chelsea  ? I hope you don't do your prospect scouting using that philosophy.




I've always thought that of Morata like I have always thought that Pedro was nothing special. I'm not judging a player based on one game as a substitute.


----------



## Foppa

Xhaka just may become our most indespensible player his season. He's a beauty to watch when he keeps his emotions in check and his body moving. Really think that first six months was adapting. Guys got an iron will on the field too. Same with Kolasnic, that is one physically strong and impressive guy.


----------



## Luigi Habs

This is going to be an interesting EPL season. Tbh I have no idea who's going to win. 

Logically Man City should be #1 favorites. They fixed their full back problems, on paper, but they still have question marks at the CB position and in midfield IMO. 

Chelsea lacks depth and didn't fill their more pressing needs. I'm not sure Morata + Bakayoko is better than Costa + Matic. I don't think they'll repeat. 

I like Man Utd's chancea a lot. Still some question marks on defense IMO, and that LW position may end up being a problem for them. 

Liverpool and Tottenham don't have enough depth IMO to compete on 2 major fronts. At least one will miss out on top 4, if not both. I'm surprised with their lack of activity, it's worse for Tottenham though. 

Regarding Arsenal, we'll see what happens with Alexis, I feel he's staying. They won't win the EPL, but they have a good chance to finish top 3 IMO if they stay healthy.


----------



## maclean

Luiginho said:


> I like Man Utd's chancea a lot. Still some question marks on defense IMO, and that LW position may end up being a problem for them.




I'm very curious to see how they do in the Super Cup tomorrow night. Should be a kind of "real" test for them...


----------



## YNWA14

I've got:

City
Liverpool
United
Chelsea
Arsenal
Spurs
Everton


----------



## Live in the Now

If our squad stays the way it is now, I have Liverpool and Tottenham out of the top four.


----------



## Cassano

City 
Utd 
Chelsea 
Spurs
Arsenal
Liverpool


----------



## Nalens Oga

bleedblue1223 said:


> That match did highlight to concerns with Chelsea though, that many have said. They need depth first and foremost, another CM that can play against the big teams and not be exposed defensively, 2 additional wing-backs, and while we'll always be pretty reliant on Hazard, we need to find a piece in the front 3 that can reasonably replace him when he is out. Willian and Pedro are good robin's to Hazard's batman, but we need something better there if Hazard ever gets hurt or is in poor form.




If money is tight as it seems to be on the transfer front now for Chelsea, I'm not quite sure why they don't just bring in a few guys in on loan. Can't blame that on a tight purse, their board is just strange.


----------



## Jeffrey

I have :
City
Tottenham
Chelsea
United
Liverpool
Arsenal


----------



## Deficient Mode

City
Arsenal
United 
Chelsea
Liverpool
Tottenham


----------



## Ceremony

Spurs
Chelsea
Arsenal
Liverpool
Man City
Man United


----------



## Jersey Fresh

I bet a couple Liverpool supporting friends of mine a $100 each that they don't get top-4, so that's my only prediction. 

They think you lot are a top-2 lock, for what it's worth


----------



## hatterson

City, United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Aresenal, Spurs


----------



## Live in the Now

Jersey Fresh said:


> I bet a couple Liverpool supporting friends of mine a $100 each that they don't get top-4, so that's my only prediction.
> 
> They think you lot are a top-2 lock, for what it's worth




If Liverpool sign van Dijk or another similar defender, you'll lose that $100. But if Klavan is 3rd defender this year, you should be winning.


----------



## hatterson

Does the community shield count as a competitive game for the FA? If so, that means Pedro misses the first 3 games, right?


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

hatterson said:


> Does the community shield count as a competitive game for the FA? If so, that means Pedro misses the first 3 games, right?




Going by precedent, he won't miss the first 3. Branislav Ivanovic got a red in the Community Shield in 2012, and then scored on opening day against Wigan.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Community Shield is considered a friendly with regards to cards. 

No further punishment for Pedro.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

As much of a Spurs homer as I am, I can't see them top three with having zero depth and already being injured. No way.

ManCity
Chelsea
ManU
Spurs
Liverpool
Everton
Arsenal


----------



## Live in the Now

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...er-miss-start-tottenhams-season-ankle-injury/

Not only Trippier, but Rose and Lamela. Son and Wanyama are doubts.

Both Liverpool and Tottenham are really tempting fate with these small squads.


----------



## Elliman

1. United
2. Liverpool
3. Spurs
4. City
5. Chelsea
6. Everton
7. Arsenal


----------



## Adonis Creed

Pedro should be suspended...horrendous dirty tackle by a terriblle player!


----------



## Deficient Mode

Proposition Joe said:


> *Pedro* should be suspended...horrendous dirty tackle *by a terriblle player*!




Did someone other than Pedro make the tackle then?


----------



## East Coast Bias

Proposition Joe said:


> Pedro should be suspended...horrendous dirty tackle by a terriblle player!




Hot take - it was only a yellow for me.


----------



## Cassano

East Coast Bias said:


> Hot take - it was only a yellow for me.




It was a cleats up tackle from behind Lol. Straight red every time.


----------



## Savant

Not doing predictions until the end of the window.


----------



## Nalens Oga

I have Man City winning/it's theirs to take as of now but yeah it does depend on what happens in the rest of the window if other clubs can improve....if Liverpool hang on to Coutinho, if Chelsea add at least two big signings plus depth, Spurs add depth, Arsenal hold on to Sanchez, etc.

If it pretty much holds as is then I'm confident in ManU getting back into the top 4 but I don't see them ahead of City.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

City
Chelsea
Spurs
United
Liverpool 
Arsenal


----------



## maclean

I don't know why but I could see Chelsea dropping off significantly this season. But I agree that I wouldn't want to predict until the window is over. Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs and potentially Chelsea at the least should still be making a purchase or two


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Steed Malbranque still around? Van der Vaart need a paycheck? Bassong? Anyone?


----------



## bleedblue1223

maclean said:


> I don't know why but I could see Chelsea dropping off significantly this season. But I agree that I wouldn't want to predict until the window is over. Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs and potentially Chelsea at the least should still be making a purchase or two




If Chelsea doesn't make the moves they should before the window closes, I wouldn't expect a top 4 finish.


----------



## Timeless Winter

Too hard to predict, all top 6-7 teams have glaring holes on their rosters. This will probably be a year where England has a bad showing in the champions league again. Can't see a team getting to the final 8 unless there's lucky draws.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

maclean said:


> I don't know why but I could see Chelsea dropping off significantly this season. But I agree that I wouldn't want to predict until the window is over. Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs and potentially Chelsea at the least should still be making a purchase or two




As a Chelsea fan, I'm nervous about this year. Simple as that. Our depth is bad and Hazard being injured for the first part of the year is a problem.


----------



## YNWA14

Hazard being injured is why I have Chelsea in 4th. Arsenal are being overrated and Liverpool underrated. I'm not worried about Liverpool at all. Spurs are going to struggle which is why I have them dropping to 6th. City are going to walk the league this season IMO. Their depth in attack is insane and being a flat track bully is the best way to win the PL.


----------



## Blender

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> As a Chelsea fan, I'm nervous about this year. Simple as that. Our depth is bad and Hazard being injured for the first part of the year is a problem.




I was really hoping they would get more depth so they could actually compete on multiple fronts. Unless they buy a couple more guys, right now I think they need to prioritize either Champions League or the EPL, and based on the strength of the squad they have a better chance in the EPL.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

spintheblackcircle said:


> As much of a Spurs homer as I am, I can't see them top three with having zero depth and already being injured. No way.
> 
> ManCity
> Chelsea
> ManU
> Spurs
> Liverpool
> Everton
> Arsenal




After the big transfer today:

ManCity
Chelsea
ManU
Spurs
Everton
Arsenal
Liverpool


----------



## Nalens Oga

United really should've loaned out Martial to a mid-table club or even Everton. Gonna screw up his development.

Though I don't personally ever sympathize with these young players that go to the bigger teams 2 or 3 seasons before they're ready.


----------



## Vamos Rafa

Can some of you fellpw Chelsea fans explain this Costa saga? Who is to blame for this? Costa himself or Conte?


----------



## bleedblue1223

Vamos Rafa said:


> Can some of you fellpw Chelsea fans explain this Costa saga? Who is to blame for this? Costa himself or Conte?




Costa, but I take it all with a grain of salt from each side. 

The story seems to be that Conte/Chelsea decided to move on from Costa in January, and the club is probably the source for the crazy China bids, whether leaking or contacting China. Since they weren't able to get a replacement, they bit for Belotti, that stopped the sale of Costa. 

The text message from the summer was to me mis-interpreted, but at that point, Costa already knew he wasn't really in Chelsea's plans, and he was trying to force his way to Atletico. 

Basically, to sum it up, Conte got sick of Costa's antics and not training/conditioning to his standards, and Costa will do anything to get back to Atletico. Both parties are stubborn, and Chelsea is holding up for a bigger fee as Atletico is wanting to pay very little for him. 

Atletico is not distancing/backing-off as they don't want to completely burn a bridge with Chelsea, but also don't want to pay what Chelsea is asking. Costa is mad at Atletico for not rescuing him, but he still wants to go there.

Chelsea are likely prepared to Malouda him.


----------



## Vamos Rafa

The Malouda treatment was just sickening. I love our team but the way some of our players have been treated by the team in their remaining days with the club is just not something to be proud of.


----------



## Blender

Vamos Rafa said:


> The Malouda treatment was just sickening. I love our team but the way some of our players have been treated by the team in their remaining days with the club is just not something to be proud of.




To be fair, weren't there transfers out there for him, but he refused to take a pay cut? I don't like clubs just exiling players at all, but when you ask for a transfer due to lack of playing time, clubs put in bids for you, and you turn them all down due to their wage offer, it's as much on you as the club.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Blender said:


> To be fair, weren't there transfers out there for him, but he refused to take a pay cut? I don't like clubs just exiling players at all, but when you ask for a transfer due to lack of playing time, clubs put in bids for you, and you turn them all down due to their wage offer, it's as much on you as the club.




Yep, that's what happened.


----------



## Luigi Habs

Vamos Rafa said:


> The Malouda treatment was just sickening. I love our team but the way some of our players have been treated by the team in their remaining days with the club is just not something to be proud of.




In Costa's case though he's still a top striker that can help the team. He was arguably their 3rd best player last season behind Kante and Hazard. Milan are very much interested in him but he doesn't seem to want to go there.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Luiginho said:


> In Costa's case though he's still a top striker that can help the team. He was arguably their 3rd best player last season behind Kante and Hazard. Milan are very much interested in him but he doesn't seem to want to go there.




Yeah Costa's crazy. Seems like he only wants to got to Atletico or you'd be hearing a lot more clubs linked with him and he'd be moved by now. Chelsea did get in bed with crazy though so...

Also, here's the first episode of the new podcast with AC Jimbo, Totally Football. I listened to it and have to say it was a lot better done than the newest episode of Football Weekly which sounded like a mess.

https://audioboom.com/posts/6184568-a-new-hope


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Liverpool announce Western Union as their sleeve sponsors.

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/ann...c-and-western-union-launch-global-partnership

How many teams have chosen sleeve sponsors now?


----------



## spintheblackcircle

http://soccer.nbcsports.com/2017/08/09/alexis-sanchez-to-miss-start-of-season-through-injury/

Arsenal will be without Alexis Sanchez for the first few weeks of the Premier League season.

Sanchez, 28, picked up an abdominal injury in training ahead of last Sunday’s FA Community Shield victory against Chelsea at Wembley and the Chilean forward will now miss Friday’s PL opener against Leicester City (Watch live, 2:45 p.m. ET on NBCSN and online via NBCSports.com) and is unlikely to make their trip to Stoke in Week 2 too.


----------



## bluesfan94

Yeah sure an injury. Parisitis


----------



## YNWA14

TopKex said:


> Liverpool announce Western Union as their sleeve sponsors.
> 
> http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/ann...c-and-western-union-launch-global-partnership
> 
> How many teams have chosen sleeve sponsors now?




Hideous.


----------



## IU Hawks fan

Western Union is still around?


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Really hoping that sleeve sponsor doesn't become a thing for everyone, but once the dam breaks...


----------



## Chimaera

It looks ugly, but money is money.


----------



## Prntscrn

TopKex said:


> Liverpool announce Western Union as their sleeve sponsors.
> 
> http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/ann...c-and-western-union-launch-global-partnership
> 
> How many teams have chosen sleeve sponsors now?




They couldn't have done it any bigger?


----------



## Ceremony

Jersey Fresh said:


> Really hoping that sleeve sponsor doesn't become a thing for everyone, but once the dam breaks...




You're a bit late with that one


----------



## Ceremony

Southampton adding to their shirt sponsorship by Virgin Media with sleeve sponsorship by Virgin media reminds me of my favourite moment of sponsorship saturation. I was watching highlights of a Cardiff game and they had a penalty. The camera was on the player taking the penalty, showing Visit Malaysia on the front of his shirt. The next camera shot was behind him, with Visit Malaysia above his name on the shirt and Visit Malaysia on the back of his shorts. When it went to the regular camera shot the electronic advertising boards said Visit Malaysia over and over, rotating around the ground. Farcical.


----------



## bleedblue1223

The only one that look bad was Leicester because it doesn't blend into the jersey and it just clashes.


----------



## YNWA14

I actually like the virgin media one on the sleeves it doesn't look bad.


----------



## gphr513

Yeah, holy hell those Leicester ones look awful.


----------



## Nalens Oga

Well this is even worse than a giant Samsung logo or whatever in the front. I guess it's either international kits only for me now or knock-off types or ones that don't have sponsors on them.

Really feels weird now to wear a shirt with a sponsor, wasn't an issue for me as a teen.


----------



## Jussi

Nalens Oga said:


> Well this is even worse than a giant Samsung logo or whatever in the front. I guess it's either international kits only for me now or knock-off types or ones that don't have sponsors on them.
> 
> Really feels weird now to wear a shirt with a sponsor, wasn't an issue for me as a teen.




I cherish fondly my old cheap knock-off United jerseys with SHARPE on the front.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

You just had to give an exclusive interview to The ****ing Sun, did you Danny?


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Normally I don't like stuff like that, but I don't blame him. Someone has to make it uncomfortable for Levy. Much rather it be Rose than any of the other dozen underpaid guys that want to win a trophy.


----------



## Shoalzie

1. Manchester City
2. Tottenham
3. Manchester United
4. Chelsea
5. Arsenal
6. Liverpool


----------



## YNWA14

For all the people acting like Liverpool hasn't done enough this is a pretty good read:

https://tomkinstimes.com/2017/08/paul-tomkins-big-201718-liverpool-fc-preview/

This being a very nice excerpt for those with the doom and gloom mentality:



> Before panicking about the season – and there’s still time left in the window to make more signings (and hold on to Philippe Coutinho) – it’s worth remembering this:
> 
> JÃ¼rgen Klopp, aided by an excellent staff, is an improver of players. Each year he still needs to buy some additional players who suit his style of play, and to work on upgrading a squad, but his career is marked out by improving players and creating unified teams, with a strong tactical identity.
> 
> As much as we all like the euphoria of new signings, and the promise they bring, it’s worth remembering that, all along, Klopp has stated that there are many ways to do things. If you listen to him speak, you will understand that he’s a hugely pragmatic, optimistic character, who will work with what he has (or what he can get).
> 
> It seems that he wants to target very specific players, and if they cannot be gained at a sensible price – or even inflated prices – he will not hurriedly rush to alternatives. He will not buy players he does not think better than what he has, just for the sake of it, when he can work on improving what he has. Of course, you can’t turn slow or medium-paced attackers into Sadio ManÃ© or Mo Salah, but as Klopp himself has stated, suddenly he has Ryan Kent, a much-improved 20-year-old, and Alberto Moreno, who I will move onto later. If you go through the squad, as I will do, you will see that it’s already stronger in several areas. What was planted several years ago is now starting to bear fruit.
> 
> What Spurs have done these past few years should be replicable for Liverpool; and even more still, given the club’s bigger budget. Klopp and Mauricio Pochettino seem cut from similar cloth, and the dramatic, hitherto unimagined improvements at Spurs – 86 points! – has been achieved with little spending, but a lot of nurturing. Indeed, their late “panic buy” of Moussa Sissoko serves as a warning for buying for the sake of it. (He may still come good, but added nothing last season.)




Lippi operated on the same philosophies. It's more important to have a unified team that's well integrated than to necessarily buy players just for the sake of buying them -- especially if you already have a boatload of talent there to be nurtured. Klopp's work is already paying dividends and with holding onto Coutinho and the improvement other players have shown it's only going to get better.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

What was actually wrong with what Rose said? 

I don't understand owners of these big name clubs who don't actually want to spend. Why would you bother yourself with this business if you are not going to give your team a blank checkbook? I could understand not paying the Neymar buyout clause, but not wanting to spend like 100M per season on players? You are asking to not have success from a sporting standpoint. If you want to save as much money as possible, sell your team, and let someone who wants to spend some money own that club.


----------



## YNWA14

It's not about buying for the sake of buying. It's about buying the right players; that doesn't always come with just throwing money around as we've seen plenty in the past.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Curtinho said:


> It's not about buying for the sake of buying. It's about buying the right players; that doesn't always come with just throwing money around as we've seen plenty in the past.




Thats why Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Manchester United are the most successful clubs in Europe instead of Sevilla, Lyon, Southampton, etc.


----------



## PeteWorrell

The truth is that Tottenham is cash-strapped right now because of the new stadium.Arsenal lived the same thing when they moved from Highbury to the Emirates.


----------



## YNWA14

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Thats why Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Manchester United are the most successful clubs in Europe instead of Sevilla, Lyon, Southampton, etc.




Take Real Madrid out of the equation and look at the core of the teams that you're listing (though you're leaving out Liverpool, Ajax and Milan who are all more successful than United). Those teams didn't win because they went out and bought players just to buy players.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Curtinho said:


> Take Real Madrid out of the equation and look at the core of the teams that you're listing (though you're leaving out Liverpool, Ajax and Milan who are all more successful than United). Those teams didn't win because they went out and bought players just to buy players.




I didn't say buy players to buy players. Spurs have spent no money this summer. They recently let go of one of their best players because they didn't want to pay his wage demands.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Fosu-Mensah loan to Palace official. 

Saw DeBoer talk about how TFM could feature at RB in a back 4, or RCB in a back 3. Really wish he would get some time in MF. 

Overall, it's a good move to get time this season


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> I didn't say buy players to buy players. Spurs have spent no money this summer. They recently let go of one of their best players because they didn't want to pay his wage demands.




I like Walker, but I wouldn't say he was one of their best. Combine that with Trippier being maybe 10% less than Walker...50 million pounds more than makes up the difference. But the problem is, they didn't spend that to get either a reliable back-up for Trippier or a direct competitor, and now he's going to be out a while.

So you're right, it's not the fact that they are avoiding spending recklessly, it's that they are not even covering their bases.


----------



## Johnnywhite

spintheblackcircle said:


> I like Walker, but I wouldn't say he was one of their best. Combine that with Trippier being maybe 10% less than Walker...*50 million pounds more than makes up the difference. *But the problem is, they didn't spend that to get either a reliable back-up for Trippier or a direct competitor, and now he's going to be out a while.
> 
> So you're right, it's not the fact that they are avoiding spending recklessly, it's that they are not even covering their bases.




No it doesn't mate because it's going to/ has cost us Danny Rose too, probably to the other Manc lot. We develop players, become competitive, then get picked off by the financially doped clown show clubs, but we're not a selling club, the hell we're not & we don't sell to our direct rivals...sure! I'm disgusted.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Rose's reasons to justify a future move were relatively fair. I'm more pissed at the way he went about it. Deciding to arrange an exclusive interview with the Sun to say quite alot of disrespectful things.


----------



## Johnnywhite

TopKex said:


> Rose's reasons to justify a future move were relatively fair. I'm more pissed at the way he went about it. Deciding to arrange an exclusive interview with the Sun to say quite alot of disrespectful things.




How are his reasons for trying to force a move 'fair'? He's purely gold digging, likely prompted by Uncle Mark(Rankine) , also his agent & lo & behold also Kyle Walker's agent. It's dirty & cynical as hell.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Then give the man a pay raise.


----------



## Johnnywhite

bleedblue1223 said:


> Then give the man a pay raise.




Covered less than a year ago, since then he's been injured & still pulling $100k a week.


----------



## Jeffrey

Danny Rose is the best leftback in the premier league. He deserves to be the top paid playee at his position.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Jeffrey said:


> Danny Rose is the best leftback in the premier league. He deserves to be the top paid playee at his position.




Nope. False. Disagree.


----------



## Savant

Right now you have the Manchester teams as the two best. There are weird things going on at Tottenham, who are short staffed as well as Liverpool and Chelsea. Arsenal is a complete wild card. There is a ton of variance on the London teams. As of today here is my prediction

1. Man Utd
2. Man City
3. Liverpool
4. Chelsea
5. Arsenal
6. Tottenham

De Gea is going to be the difference and Man U will feast on the little teams. I don't think they will do particularly great in Europe but they are built to win in England. City will come close but are integrating too many new pieces and their goalkeeping is still a huge question mark. 

What Tottenham had going for them was their players buying into their infrastructure. Right now that is being challenged immensely. If they don't start fast they could be in trouble. Also the new stadium effect could hurt them. Pochettino has his work cut out, and he may be up for it. I might be too low on them but there are visible cracks. 

Arsenal got better, but I don't know how much better. I don't love Lacazette. They are another team that needs to start fast. With their two most talented players approaching Bosman, anything could happen there. 

Chelsea is another team that can go anywhere. I think Hazard's injury puts a ton of pressure on Morata and the jury is out on him. I think Conte is too good to keep them from falling out of the top 4, but it's going to be a difficult season, and a lot will depend on how he balances the squad. 

Finally Liverpool. I think you can roll a dice, and that would be as good of a guess as any as to where they end up. A lot needs to go right for them but under year 3 of the Klopp project, they are in a decent position. I don't think they have the squad depth to run at the league title, but I think they could have the best European run with their performances against top teams. That being said, a lot depends on the draws. If they get out of Europe early they will go heavy on the FA Cup. They need silverware this season badly. 

BUT with the transfer window still open (if it was up to me it would close August 1 before the season started) this is all subject to change. I'll see if I want to revise at the end of the month.


----------



## Fro

don't agree with the manner Rose went about it, him having the same agent as Walker, something smells here...both were happy then all of the sudden aren't...

as Spin said, Trippier made Walker expendable, Davies really hasn't made Rose the same...

As long as Levy finds a way to bring some depth in, I'll feel ok...a 2nd year of CL money should help free some cash up to pay some of the guys...but I think Rose is down the list of those who will get the next round of pay bumps...


----------



## Johnnywhite

“It’s been a great couple of week for the club with Dele, Eric, Christian, Harry Winks all signing contracts,” Rose said.



"Everyone knows that the Club is going in the right direction and I'm over the moon that I'll stay here until I'm an old man." Danny Rose, September 22nd, 2016.


----------



## Havre

spintheblackcircle said:


> Normally I don't like stuff like that, but I don't blame him. Someone has to make it uncomfortable for Levy. Much rather it be Rose than any of the other dozen underpaid guys that want to win a trophy.




Through The Sun?

Personally I don't care too much because I know a lot of people being that famous, that rich etc. tend to develop their self-centered "#%"Â¤ side. I'm not saying they are bad people deep down, but without anyone to keep you grounded you get these kind of Bieber-like interviews.

That doesn't mean it is OK and that "he shouldn't be blamed". If he didn't like the direction of the team why did he sign a long contract? You can't have it both ways.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

The main players Spurs should be worried about leaving soon are Rose, Alderweireld, Eriksen, and maybe Dele.

Some believe that the club may be sold after the stadium is finished.


----------



## Havre

TopKex said:


> The main players Spurs should be worried about leaving soon are Rose, Alderweireld, Eriksen, and maybe Dele.
> 
> Some believe that the club may be sold after the stadium is finished.




These things are fairly random though. But quite clearly Spurs are in a situation where if individual players do well they will be sold much in the same way Monaco "had" to sell and how it looks like Arsenal will be losing players.

Praying Spurs won't be sold to someone from Qatar, Russia etc. I know most fans disagree, but the most enjoyable part of being a Spurs-fan the last 20 years have been seeing the club develop step by step without any financial "doping" (of course Sugar might have saved the club from going bankrupt at one point). Becoming a new City in London would kill some of the fun of being a fan for me. Instead of hoping for players to develop you just end up hoping someone will throw away more money than the others on some fancy name. So utterly pointless and so removed from what sports are about.

In combination with being a Canucks fan that would mean a fairly uninteresting life for me for quite a few years.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Havre said:


> Praying Spurs won't be sold to someone from Qatar, Russia etc. I know most fans disagree, but the most enjoyable part of being a Spurs-fan the last 20 years have been seeing the club develop step by step without any financial "doping" (of course Sugar might have saved the club from going bankrupt at one point). Becoming a new City in London would kill some of the fun of being a fan for me. Instead of hoping for players to develop you just end up hoping someone will throw away more money than the others on some fancy name. So utterly pointless and so removed from what sports are about.




I'm with you there.

Just found this on Reddit, take it for what you like:



> I know more than I should about this situation... The sale has been agreed and has been for nearly a year, it will be announced once we move in. The sale will be split into 2 transactions, club and stadium. Levy will remain as chairman, on a wage. With no invested cash in the club, maybe he'll be more willing to loosen the purse strings... New owners are likely to see us as a vanity project, it won't be to City/PSG standards by any stretch but the financial constraints we face now won't be as relevant.
> 
> For this summer, we're having to balance protection of valuable assets with not vastly increasing the monthly outgoings of the club. The buyers won't look too kindly on the outgoings on wages being double what they were when the deal was reached. Some fluctuation is accepted, especially with consistent league finishes...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any quote of a source to this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A major commercial property trader in London, he has no interest in football but got the information from source as he thought I'd be interested... He knows because of the stadium transaction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## spintheblackcircle

I've been saying this a while now and it could be tied to new ownership. IF the NFL wants to expand to London, it will be to play in Spurs new stadium. And I don't know if the NFL would allow one of their teams to be owned by a principality or oligarch. 

....although that could get the NFL into the Russian or Middle Eastern market. 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/08/11/t...mmqb&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social

Tottenham Wants to Be the NFL’s Premier League Team


----------



## Theon

I guess its time for the first GWT of the season. 

May also be time to revisit ArsenalFanTV if Leicester can make something happen tonight.


----------



## Fugazy

1. Manchester City
2. Manchester United
3. Tottenham
4. Chelsea
5. Arsenal
6. Liverpool


----------



## 93LEAFS

Quite the game to start the season, and its not even over.


----------



## Johnnywhite

93LEAFS said:


> Quite the game to start the season, and its not even over.




I think Arsenal need to do a bit of work on their zonal marking.


----------



## booyakasha

1. Manchester City
2. Arsenal
3. ManU
4. Chelsea
5. Spuds
6. Liverpool


----------



## Havre

As a Spurs-fan I can't say we got many good songs (if any at the moment), but "Chelsea Chelsea Chelsea"? Is that all?


----------



## booyakasha

redo my prediction, Spuds abovve Chelsea...

1. Manchester City
2. Arsenal
3. ManU
4. Spuds
5. Chelsea
6. Liverpool


----------



## hatterson

So I was thinking about what the firing conditions for each manager of the top 6 would be.

- Conte seems pretty secure, you'd have to think anything except an absolute implosion and he'd keep the job.
- Pochettino also seems pretty secure, you'd have to think everything except fighting relegation and he'll keep his job.
- Klopp is likely secure for all but a tire fire season as well, just because he hasn't been given much in terms of transfers.
- Wenger is probably gone if he misses the top 4.
- Mourinho should be gone if he doesn't make the top 4, and honestly will likely face heat if he's just struggling to get top 4 and exits early in the CL.
- I have to figure if Pep doesn't make a run at either the league or the CL he'll face a lot of heat as well, or maybe he'll just come back and spend another quarter billion.

Everyone think that's about right?


----------



## Live in the Now

Sounds right. Can't imagine Klopp and Conte getting fired, but can imagine them both leaving.


----------



## phisherman

Live in the Now said:


> Sounds right. Can't imagine Klopp and Conte getting fired, but can imagine them both leaving.




Also Wenger is NEVER getting fired. Arsenal is stuck with him until end of next season.


----------



## Adele Dazeem

Both Manchester clubs look poised for an early lead with Chelsea right behind them. I wasn't impressed by either Tottenham or Liverpool. Both still have the same holes they did last season. Arsenal looks reinvigorated though and Leicester should fight for a Europa league position.


----------



## Havre

Adele Dazeem said:


> Both Manchester clubs look poised for an early lead with Chelsea right behind them. I wasn't impressed by either Tottenham or Liverpool. Both still have the same holes they did last season. Arsenal looks reinvigorated though and Leicester should fight for a Europa league position.




What holes would that be?

Thought Arsenal looked the weakest among the "top teams". Of course the missed a couple of key players defensively, but they regardless got a long way before that back 3 works for them.

Not that the first match matters a lot. All about getting the points. If anything history shows you shouldnÂ´t play too well early on (ask Pep).


----------



## Adele Dazeem

Havre said:


> What holes would that be?
> 
> Thought Arsenal looked the weakest among the "top teams". Of course the missed a couple of key players defensively, but they regardless got a long way before that back 3 works for them.
> 
> Not that the first match matters a lot. All about getting the points. If anything history shows you shouldnÃ‚Â´t play too well early on (ask Pep).




Liverpool's back line and goal situation is still a big question mark.
Tottenham are going to be hard pressed to fill out that depth yet again (no additions to the squad/transfers)

Arsenal look more composed as a team; and like you said that back three will not be there go to for big matches. Mustafi and Koscielny are better than anything Liverpool have for example.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Adele Dazeem said:


> Liverpool's back line and goal situation is still a big question mark.
> Tottenham are going to be hard pressed to fill out that depth yet again (no additions to the squad/transfers)
> 
> Arsenal look more composed as a team; and like you said that back three will not be there go to for big matches. Mustafi and Koscielny are better than anything Liverpool have for example.




I find Spurs depth issues largely overstated apart from at CB (which we are trying to bolster). 

Matip > Mustafi too.


----------



## YEM

TopKex said:


> I find Spurs depth issues largely overstated apart from at CB (which we are trying to bolster).



I agree even tho the performance from this past weekend was a bit lacking
I think that "spurs need to add more depth" has been parroted so often that's it's taken as gospel...


----------



## Jussi

Spurs ranked so low. Have people forgotten Spurs big summer signing? No wait, that was Levy...


----------



## Adele Dazeem

TopKex said:


> I find Spurs depth issues largely overstated apart from at CB (which we are trying to bolster).
> 
> Matip > Mustafi too.




How can it be overstated when they couldn't do a thing in the CL last season in a somewhat easy group with pretty much the same squad as they have now.


----------



## Adele Dazeem

If i were to predict

1. Man United
2. Man City
3. Arsenal
4. Chelsea
5. Tottenham
6. Liverpool
7. Leicester


----------



## Havre

Adele Dazeem said:


> Liverpool's back line and goal situation is still a big question mark.
> Tottenham are going to be hard pressed to fill out that depth yet again (no additions to the squad/transfers)
> 
> Arsenal look more composed as a team; and like you said that back three will not be there go to for big matches. Mustafi and Koscielny are better than anything Liverpool have for example.




Liverpool brought in a new LB and they are clearly trying to find a new CD. If they canÂ´t find a new CD I agree they are exposed in that area.

Yet again? The finished the season extremely strong. Last year they lost most of their points early on. Had nothing to do with lack of depth.

There is a piece missing in defence as Wimmer doesnÂ´t seem like he is good enough, but apart from that I donÂ´t really see the depth issue.

GK: Lloris, Vorm. Fine. Need a 3rd, but that one can easily find.
RB: Trippier, Walker-Peters, (Dier)
LB: Rose, Davies, (Vertonghen)
CD: Alderweireld, Vertonghen, CCV, Wimmer
CM: Dembele, Dier, Wanyama, Winks, (Eriksen), (Alli)
AM/W: Eriksen, Alli, Son, Lamela, Sissoko, NÂ´Koudou and Edwards
F: Kane, Janssen, (Son)

Looks fairly balanced to me. A new CD means Dier doesnÂ´t have to play as a CD when Pochettino wants to go 3-4-3. It also means Spurs are less exposed in midfield. Replace Sissoko with a football player and that team is all set.

There are question marks around players like Walker-Peters, CCV, Wimmer, Winks (even if he was very very good last year), NÂ´Koudou, Edwards and Janssen. But just because they arenÂ´t named Nolito doesnÂ´t mean they canÂ´t be solid depth. Not that many years ago Kane, Walker, Rose, Dier, Alli etc. werenÂ´t considered solid depth either (even among many Spursfans - let alone others). IÂ´m not saying it couldnÂ´t be better, but it isnÂ´t necessarily that bad.

IÂ´m not an expert on City depth so I might have missed someone, but of the more established players:

GK: Ederson, Bravo.
RB: Walker, Danilo
LB: Mendy, Danilo I guess?
CD: Kompany, Stones, Otamendi, Denayer, Mangala
CM: Silva, Fernandinho, Gundogan, Toure, Delph
AM/W: De Bruyne, Sane, Sterling, Bernardo Silva and maybe Nasri still counts
F: Aguero, Jesus

In terms of numbers City doesnÂ´t really have that many more options. Now Jesus is obviously far superior to Janssen, but apart from that I donÂ´t even see that big of a difference in quality in depth. Whoever is 4th choice as a CM is most likely better than Winks, but Winks is much better than most non-Spursfans think.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## Burner Account

Blessing for Liverpool


----------



## AstrophysicalJet

Chief Ranger said:


> 1. Manchester City
> 2. Manchester United
> 3. Tottenham
> 4. Chelsea
> 5. Arsenal
> 6. Liverpool




Gonna kill ,myself if Citeh end up winners


----------



## Adele Dazeem

Havre said:


> Liverpool brought in a new LB and they are clearly trying to find a new CD. If they canÃ‚Â´t find a new CD I agree they are exposed in that area.
> 
> Yet again? The finished the season extremely strong. Last year they lost most of their points early on. Had nothing to do with lack of depth.
> 
> There is a piece missing in defence as Wimmer doesnÃ‚Â´t seem like he is good enough, but apart from that I donÃ‚Â´t really see the depth issue.
> 
> GK: Lloris, Vorm. Fine. Need a 3rd, but that one can easily find.
> RB: Trippier, Walker-Peters, (Dier)
> LB: Rose, Davies, (Vertonghen)
> CD: Alderweireld, Vertonghen, CCV, Wimmer
> CM: Dembele, Dier, Wanyama, Winks, (Eriksen), (Alli)
> AM/W: Eriksen, Alli, Son, Lamela, Sissoko, NÃ‚Â´Koudou and Edwards
> F: Kane, Janssen, (Son)
> 
> Looks fairly balanced to me. A new CD means Dier doesnÃ‚Â´t have to play as a CD when Pochettino wants to go 3-4-3. It also means Spurs are less exposed in midfield. Replace Sissoko with a football player and that team is all set.
> 
> There are question marks around players like Walker-Peters, CCV, Wimmer, Winks (even if he was very very good last year), NÃ‚Â´Koudou, Edwards and Janssen. But just because they arenÃ‚Â´t named Nolito doesnÃ‚Â´t mean they canÃ‚Â´t be solid depth. Not that many years ago Kane, Walker, Rose, Dier, Alli etc. werenÃ‚Â´t considered solid depth either (even among many Spursfans - let alone others). IÃ‚Â´m not saying it couldnÃ‚Â´t be better, but it isnÃ‚Â´t necessarily that bad.
> 
> IÃ‚Â´m not an expert on City depth so I might have missed someone, but of the more established players:
> 
> GK: Ederson, Bravo.
> RB: Walker, Danilo
> LB: Mendy, Danilo I guess?
> CD: Kompany, Stones, Otamendi, Denayer, Mangala
> CM: Silva, Fernandinho, Gundogan, Toure, Delph
> AM/W: De Bruyne, Sane, Sterling, Bernardo Silva and maybe Nasri still counts
> F: Aguero, Jesus
> 
> In terms of numbers City doesnÃ‚Â´t really have that many more options. Now Jesus is obviously far superior to Janssen, but apart from that I donÃ‚Â´t even see that big of a difference in quality in depth. Whoever is 4th choice as a CM is most likely better than Winks, but Winks is much better than most non-Spursfans think.




The only area where I see the Spurs having an advantage is in goal. Every other position, I'd rate City as the better side. Granted the difference between both teams' top players aren't that far off. The difference lies in stretching that depth for both league and CL games. Spurs won't line up a better team for the most part unless their young players get drastically better. I guess it lies on hoe Poch mixes and matches the team against weaker competition. 

As far as Liverpool, they still have Moreno in their starting-11....
Lovren has been a letdown, and I doubt he magically gets better
Matip is the only respectable D they currently have.
Getting VVD would do wonders for Liverpool, but even then I'm not entirely sold on Can and Henderson in the middle. Wijnaldum is a wild card.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Adele Dazeem said:


> *The only area where I see the Spurs having an advantage is in goal*. Every other position, I'd rate City as the better side. Granted the difference between both teams' top players aren't that far off. The difference lies in stretching that depth for both league and CL games. Spurs won't line up a better team for the most part unless their young players get drastically better. I guess it lies on hoe Poch mixes and matches the team against weaker competition.




Spurs' starting CBs are undoubtedly better.


----------



## Savant

City has better fullbacks, wingers and attack mids. They are also deeper. 

City has more depth at striker, but Kane is best until GJ takes it from him. Spurs better in CM, CB and obviously in goal, until Ederson proves otherwise.


----------



## Havre

I love de Bruyne. Potentially the best player in the league, but based on the last 6-7 months I wouldnÂ´t swap Eriksen for him. WeÂ´ll see of course if Eriksen can stay consistent this time - historically he has had spells, but he has never been able to be consistently at his best. Alli is just as effective as any of the other AM/wingers at City. And Son matches whoever you have as a third ranked player - even if both Sane and Bernardo Silva got great potential.

I donÂ´t see a big difference among the AM/wingers. Could go either way who proves to be the best during the season.

City is a rather poor team considering the money spent, but they now at least got some potential in the team. de Bruyne, Sane, Jesus, Stones etc. at least got some potential to improve - so that they one day might be as good of a team as they should have been years ago. And finally it looks like they got a fairly balanced squad. Amazing it has taken so long.


----------



## Evilo

Son over Sane and B. Silva?


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Evilo said:


> Son over Sane and B. Silva?




Over Sane, absolutely.


----------



## Havre

What part of it you disagree with Evilo?

Not exactly a given that Silva will succeed in the PL (I know he has played in France so he is by default a world class player I guess). Sane is at the moment mostly potential. Son is at the moment more proven in the PL. Could very well be that both Silva and Sane become more effective players in the PL with time, but I don't think that is obvious right now for the 17/18 season.


----------



## Live in the Now

Silva better than Son who's better than Sane.

For me anyway.


----------



## Evilo

Havre said:


> What part of it you disagree with Evilo?
> 
> Not exactly a given that Silva will succeed in the PL (I know he has played in France so he is by default a world class player I guess). Sane is at the moment mostly potential. Son is at the moment more proven in the PL. Could very well be that both Silva and Sane become more effective players in the PL with time, but I don't think that is obvious right now for the 17/18 season.




B. Silva is actually not far from world class. His tired stretches have prevented him so far from reaching that status, but when he's not fatigued, he completely is WC.

Of course, the "France" card is rather funny. Like for instance how Silva has dominated Tottenham in the two CL games they've had last year. Not Son, Silva. The difference in class was massive.
I'd say Sane had a much better CL as well.


----------



## Evilo

City's indeed better everywhere except in goals and CBs, which does make a lot of difference however.
And besides, paper teams have never won anything except debates on HFboards. The way those players will play and perform together will decide who's better.


----------



## Adele Dazeem

Sane > Son; come on now.


----------



## Havre

I didn't intend to start a "big" discussion on the differences between those 3 players. Son scored 14 goals in 2070 minutes last year. I couldn't believe how well he played after that crap first season.

Goals/assists per minutes played he outperformed de Bruyne, Hazard, Coutinho, Mane etc. Only Sanchez did better than him among the AM/wingers.

Not saying that is a perfect stat as I consider both Eriksen and Alli better players (with fewer goals/assists per minutes played), but Son has become a very very good player.


----------



## Evilo

No doubt and his speed quite often made him a very dangerous weapon.
Still Sane's speed is quite an asset as well (better dribbler too) and B. Silva's Messi light style is sometimes unstoppable. Of course, there's always a chance he doesn't perform all that well in England. He would have probably fit better in Spain, but eve then that doesn't make him a lesser player. I think his talent and CL performances alone prove he's a superior player.


----------



## Havre

Evilo said:


> B. Silva is actually not far from world class. His tired stretches have prevented him so far from reaching that status, but when he's not fatigued, he completely is WC.
> 
> Of course, the "France" card is rather funny. L*ike for instance how Silva has dominated Tottenham in the two CL games they've had last year*. Not Son, Silva. The difference in class was massive.
> I'd say Sane had a much better CL as well.




Haha. I was at Wembley. Yeah. Silva dominated that game. I would question if you even saw it.

I don't mind Silva. I think he was sensational for a spell last year and if he can replicate that he is better than Son. But that is not a given.


----------



## Evilo

Haha, I would question if you even know where Wembley is if you can't remember how he did.


----------



## Evilo

Just FYI, in the first game, Silva scored (solo effort against 4 defensemen) and had the secondary assist on Lemar's, in the second game, he created both Monaco's goals.


----------



## Evilo

Apparently, L'Equipe didn't see the game either :
https://www.lequipe.fr/Football/Article/Les-notes-de-tottenham-monaco/727408



> Impressionnant en premiÃ¨re pÃ©riode, Monaco a souffert par la suite mais remporte une victoire importante et logique qui confirme son excellent dÃ©but de saison. Bernardo Silva par son but et sa qualitÃ© technique a Ã©tÃ© l'homme du match.



MOTM : 


> Bernardo Silva si prÃ©cieux 8
> 
> Il a tout changÃ©, en premiÃ¨re pÃ©riode, grÃ¢ce Ã  son rush conclu par une frappe limpide du pied gauche (1-0, 15e). AprÃ¨s avoir rÃ©alisÃ© un gros travail cÃ´tÃ© gauche, il a en plus trouvÃ© d'une subtile talonnade SidibÃ©, Ã  l'origine du second but (31e). Ensuite, comme Lemar, le milieu de terrain monÃ©gasque a un peu disparu aprÃ¨s la pause, avant de revenir fort.




Mind you, he was also MOTM for Monaco journalists :
http://www.monacomatin.mc/football/...ernardo-silva-linsolent-au-visage-dange-78085

As well as for Hommedumatch :
http://www.hommedumatch.fr/groupe-e-1ere-j-notes-de-tottenham-monaco-1-2_140856

Son is the worst rated player in every account of this match too.


----------



## Havre

Evilo said:


> Just FYI, in the first game, Silva scored (solo effort against 4 defensemen) and had the secondary assist on Lemar's, in the second game, he created both Monaco's goals.




Against 4 defenders? Surprised you didn't count the RB as well. Nice goal. Doesn't mean he dominated the game.

Secondary assist to a cross? If I didn't know better I would have thought we were talking about Maradona.

Monaco scored twice early. Hardly had possession after. Silva tidy, but you claimed he dominated Spurs in two games which is just untrue. I never mentioned the second game. Neither did I mention Son's play. So what is your point? Evilos straw men again. Nice bunch of guys.


----------



## Evilo

Straw men?
You said the guy hardly dominated while he was responsible for 4 goals (ouf ot 4) in the two games AND HE WAS THE BEST RATED PLAYED IN THE FIRST GAME ACCORDING TO THREE DIFFERENT SOURCES.

Yet I'm the straw men here? THREE different sources. 

And yes, there were 4 defensemen around Silva when he scored. Hoped you could count up to 4. But since you pay a hefty price to go to a game you couldn't even follow, I'm not surprised.
I would question you even went to Wembley.


----------



## Havre

Evilo said:


> Straw men?
> You said the guy hardly dominated while he was responsible for 4 goals (ouf ot 4) in the two games AND HE WAS THE BEST RATED PLAYED IN THE FIRST GAME ACCORDING TO THREE DIFFERENT SOURCES.
> 
> Yet I'm the straw men here? THREE different sources.
> 
> And yes, there were 4 defensemen around Silva when he scored. Hoped you could count up to 4. But since you pay a hefty price to go to a game you couldn't even follow, I'm not surprised.
> I would question you even went to Wembley.




See you are doing it again. I didn't comment on the second game so why are you bringing it up? You can read my comments on the same page we are now discussing - not a single word about the second game.

You clearly don't know what a straw man is. So if your argument is so strong in itself why bring in factors (aka straw men) that I haven't used in my argumentation?


----------



## Evilo

You said he didn't dominate in the first game (remember : you questionned I even saw the game).
Three different independant sources say he was MOTM.

So again, may I ask, where you even at the game? Or maybe you need to consider you were sleeping.
If neither option is true, then you are left with no other choice : admit you were completely wrong and that he dominated Spurs at Wembley, in front of your very eyes.


----------



## Havre

No. I was lying. You got me.


----------



## Evilo

Got you. Not surprised.


----------



## Havre

Let’s see how a dominate performance looks in the eyes of Evilo.

30 passes. Success rate of 83%

http://imgur.com/a/FWHP4

Of those 30 passes 14 were going backwards. 

He had 8 successful passes passing the ball forwards. Not a single one in a central area or moving to a central area.

http://imgur.com/a/FWHP4

If that is him dominating I feel sorry for City. And if that is an example of him dominating he certainly isn't better than Son.


----------



## Evilo

Oh, OK
You give 3 stats and that contredicts me, L'Equipe journalists, Hommedumatch journalists and Monacodumatin journalists who actually saw the game?

Now I see why your talent evaluation is off. 

Clearly, you can't admit you're completely wrong. Good job !


----------



## Havre

Doesn't really bother me much being accused of not knowing football from a guy who suggests Ã–zil should play as a CM in a 3-4-3.

And if you think newspaper ratings is a good way of evaluating players then that says more about you then me. And if you think those 25 passes are enough to consider a performance dominant that is fine. You could have just said that in the first place.


----------



## Evilo

Indeed, it says a lot.
3 different newspapers and a long time football fan rate him as the best player on the pitch.

Yet, OF COURSE, a guy on HFboards that never shined from his football knowledge knows better.

Fine indeed. 

Son got a 3 in most paper


----------



## gphr513

I haven't watched enough Liverpool to really gauge Son v. Sane, but Son really blossomed last year, he's such a quality EPL player. 

That said, when Spurs played Liverpool, I seem to remember Sane giving one of our fullbacks a HELL of a time (I can't remember if it was Rose or Walker, idk what side Sane usually plays on).


----------



## Havre

Hmm... you are talking about Mane maybe?


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

gphr513 said:


> I haven't watched enough Liverpool to really gauge Son v. Sane, but Son really blossomed last year, he's such a quality EPL player.
> 
> That said, when Spurs played Liverpool, I seem to remember Sane giving one of our fullbacks a HELL of a time (I can't remember if it was Rose or Walker, idk what side Sane usually plays on).




I think you're confusing Leroy Sane with Sadio Mane.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

C'mon now, as it stands right now Heung-min Son being better than Bernardo Silva is hysterical. And I like Son. Obviously, Silva could end up not transitioning to the EPL very well, and then we can revive this. But based on track record, it's pretty easily Bernardo.


----------



## phisherman

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> C'mon now, as it stands right now Heung-min Son being better than Bernardo Silva is hysterical. And I like Son. Obviously, Silva could end up not transitioning to the EPL very well, and then we can revive this. But based on track record, it's pretty easily Bernardo.




Spurs have all the best players. Duh!!


----------



## Havre

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> C'mon now, as it stands right now Heung-min Son being better than Bernardo Silva is hysterical. And I like Son. Obviously, Silva could end up not transitioning to the EPL very well, and then we can revive this. But based on track record, it's pretty easily Bernardo.




I'm not sure if anyone said Son was the better player.

Yes, he could end up transitioning to the EPL very well. Basically the same thing I said (just the other way around - it not being a given he will).

Nothing hysterical about any of that.


----------



## YNWA14

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> C'mon now, as it stands right now Heung-min Son being better than Bernardo Silva is hysterical. And I like Son. Obviously, Silva could end up not transitioning to the EPL very well, and then we can revive this. But based on track record, it's pretty easily Bernardo.




I'm not sure it's hysterical. I think Son is a bit underrated. Why would Silva be 'easily better' based on track record? Son has been more productive each of the last 4 seasons and internationally.


----------



## Havre

phisherman said:


> Spurs have all the best players. Duh!!






TopKex said:


> *Even if things have gone well lately for Spurs I am not optimistic for next season at all.* The loss of WHL is immense. Don't expect Wembley to have a good atmosphere, and the larger pitch makes our pressing game much harder. And on top of that those ****ing *******s schedule us to play Arsenal, Liverpool and Man U in 11 days.
> 
> As much as i hate to admit it, I wouldn't be surprised if an exodus happens next summer.






Havre said:


> Yes. Trippier is several months younger than Walker. Haha.
> 
> Mourinho has often said fairly nice things about Spurs for some reason.
> 
> *Personally I would be quite surprised if Spurs end up in the top four.* Could see it being a fight for 5th with Arsenal. But anyone in the top 6 could win it with some luck.




I guess the two most active Spursfans on this board. The optimism and Spurs-favoritism is crazy


----------



## phisherman

Curtinho said:


> I'm not sure it's hysterical. I think Son is a bit underrated. Why would Silva be 'easily better' based on track record? Son has been more productive each of the last 4 seasons and internationally.




I don't think you can count international productivity. A lot of it is South Korea beating up on lesser Asian teams.


----------



## YNWA14

phisherman said:


> I don't think you can count international productivity. A lot of it is South Korea beating up on lesser Asian teams.




Yeah I was going to actually mention that but didn't bother editing my post. Still, it's not like Silva has some long track record of being a world beater. The talent is certainly there but I don't think it's clear-cut that he's some massively better player than Son. But I also think that effectiveness is as important as talent and the most talented players are not always the most effective/best.

We'll see how Silva transitions to City, but right now there's hardly anything clear about who the better players are between Silva, Sane and Son; though both of Silva and Sane likely have a higher ceiling.


----------



## gphr513

TopKex said:


> I think you're confusing Leroy Sane with Sadio Mane.






Havre said:


> Hmm... you are talking about Mane maybe?




D'oh!


----------



## Evilo

Curtinho said:


> Yeah I was going to actually mention that but didn't bother editing my post. Still, it's not like Silva has some long track record of being a world beater. The talent is certainly there but I don't think it's clear-cut that he's some massively better player than Son. But I also think that effectiveness is as important as talent and the most talented players are not always the most effective/best.
> 
> We'll see how Silva transitions to City, but right now there's hardly anything clear about who the better players are between Silva, Sane and Son; though both of Silva and Sane likely have a higher ceiling.




So the fact B. Silva was one of L1's best players, that he lead his team to a CL semi and torpedoed Son's team TWICE (while Son sucked in both games), all of this doesn't count as a pretty good argument one has shown more than the other


----------



## YNWA14

There are plenty of games where a player who is not as consistent or 'better' outperforms players that are better than them. Two games doesn't make a player especially when they are playing on a team that is clearly outclassing the other. If he's shown so much more why has Son outproduced him in every season?

Like last season in particular Silva had 11 goals and 12 assists in 4,296 minutes while Son had 21 goals, 10 assist in 2,972 minutes. Silva played the equivalent of 14 games more than Son...surely if he was 'massively better' he would have produced at least at a similar level especially given he played on one of the most offensive teams in Europe.


----------



## Evilo

Oh sure B. Silva was good in the CL for only two games.

OK.

And B. Silva has never been about production only.


----------



## Halladay

Im at the point Lovren that I would play Can at CB over him. Try him and Matip.


----------



## Savant

BlameUtley said:


> Im at the point Lovren that I would play Can at CB over him. Try him and Matip.




Klopp loves Lovren. He won't do it.


----------



## Maverick41

Over the last year I have come to like Huddersfield Town quite a bit and I came across this gem which reminded me of some of the more creative GDTs I have seen on hfboards, and I thought it's worth to be shared here.

http://www.htfc-world.com/reports/Palace2/crystalpalace120817.htm

There seem to be a lot of inside jokes, but eventhough I didn't get all of them I found it very entertaining.

Edit: If you look at the link there is an icon in the top left corner of some of the pictures. If you click on that icon ou get another picture that continues the "story".


----------



## Fro

Havre said:


> I guess the two most active Spursfans on this board. The optimism and Spurs-favoritism is crazy




i'm still optimistic...depth is on it's way...


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Maverick41 said:


> Over the last year I have come to like Huddersfield Town quite a bit and I came across this gem which reminded me of some of the more creative GDTs I have seen on hfboards, and I thought it's worth to be shared here.
> 
> http://www.htfc-world.com/reports/Palace2/crystalpalace120817.htm
> 
> There seem to be a lot of inside jokes, but eventhough I didn't get all of them I found it very entertaining.
> 
> Edit: If you look at the link there is an icon in the top left corner of some of the pictures. If you click on that icon ou get another picture that continues the "story".




I hope they do well, I've followed Nakhi Wells a while and wanted to see how he did in the PL, but he's hurt and sounds like on the outs.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Havre said:


> I guess the two most active Spursfans on this board:




ahem


----------



## Havre

Haha. Sorry.

Please donÂ´t say something ridiculous like Sissoko having a silky first touch or something - would ruin my point.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Hazard and Bakayoko are expected to be on the bench against Spurs on sunday.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Havre said:


> Haha. Sorry.
> 
> Please donÂ´t say something ridiculous like Sissoko having a silky first touch or something - would ruin my point.




Man, we miss Benoit Assou-Ekotto


----------



## Havre

Crazy first touch at least. Best I have ever seen from a defender.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Some info regarding Spurs performances at Wembley since the beggining of last season.

The goals they have conceded:

Tottenham 1 Monaco 2 <â€” Monaco score 2 goals from 2 shots on target 

Tottenham 0 Leverkusen 1 <â€” Leverkusen score 1 goal from 2 shots on target

Tottenham 3 CSKA Moscow 1 <â€” CSKA score 1 goal from 3 shots on target

Tottenham 2 Gent 2 <â€” Gent score 2 goals from 1 shot on target and 1 OG

Tottenham 2 Chelsea 4 <â€” Chelsea score 4 goals from 5 shots on target (5th came after they had scored their first 4 shots on target)

Tottenham 1 Chelsea 2 <â€” Chelsea score 2 goals from 2 shots on target

They have conceded 11 goals from 15 shots on target and 1 OG.

As for their goals:

Tottenham 1 Monaco 2 <â€” Spurs score 1 goal from 6 shots on target

Tottenham 0 Leverkusen 1 <â€” Spurs score 0 goals from 2 shots on target

Tottenham 3 CSKA Moscow 1 <â€” Spurs score 3 goals from 11 shots on target

Tottenham 2 Gent 2 <â€” Spurs score 2 goals from 3 shots on target

Tottenham 2 Chelsea 4 <â€” Spurs score 2 goals from 4 shots on target

Tottenham 1 Chelsea 2 <â€” Spurs score an OG and have 6 shots on target

Thatâ€™s 8 goals and an OG from 32 shots on target. So theyâ€™re conceding ~70% of the shots on target they face and score 25%.

I just can't ****ing describe it.


----------



## Evilo

You can't say it's always down to luck though. Monaco was the better team for instance. Yesterday, Chelsea had a golden opportunity to start the game. It wasn't on target because Morata missed his header, but that should have been a goal.


----------



## Havre

It's a good summary. Which is why it is all about performances for me. Clearly Spurs have been unlucky at times at Wembley, but also fortunate in other games away from Wembley so...

Performance yesterday wasn't completely rubbish, but still quite poor considering how weakened Chelsea were.

For me it is mostly on Pochettino. I think it was unnecessary to play Dier as a hybrid defender/midfield player. Dembele got pushed out too far to the left and Wanyama looked lost with and without the ball. Also Wanyama should never have been on the pitch when he made the mistake before the second goal. Trippier is positioned extremely high up the pitch, but the ball rarely moves out too him quickly enough. His one fantastic cross and Kane is far too slow to react. The few other attempts just not good enough.

Also you got other individual mistakes of course. Lloris can't concede that second goal. Kane got to score at least one.

The only good thing is that this was close to as bad Spurs can be. I'm sure there will be the odd complete stinker, but I don't expect there to be more than 2-3 performances (max) worse than this. Add the individual mistakes and I'm still quite optimistic (as in putting up a fight for top 4 - can't see this team winning the league) - even if that Chelsea team with all their problems should be beaten.


----------



## YEM

Havre said:


> Also you got other individual mistakes of course. Lloris can't concede that second goal.



he made 3 mistakes on that run of play leading up to goal #2


----------



## Havre

MickeyMelchiondo said:


> he made 3 mistakes on that run of play leading up to goal #2




If you mean the throw I'm fine with that. If Wanyama makes that pass, which should be a fairly simple one, Spurs might actually create a decent chance themselves.

Not that it changes the fact that Lloris manages to almost make himself invisible. Most Sunday league goalkeepers would be at least closer to saving that finish from Alonso than Lloris was.


----------



## YEM

Havre said:


> If you mean the throw I'm fine with that.



I should have given my explanation in my prior post; a) he got rid of it too quickly, looking for the counter going the other way [usually not very risky, but a bit moreso very late in the game when your D is a bit tired if it backfires-which it quickly did] b) the throw, as you mention-once it got broken up and Chels came right back at them, I felt that they were very much out of defensive posture which may have been fatigue related as well, c) the shot went right through him-I do think he may have been expecting a cross but still...


----------



## Havre

The throw kind of "works both ways". Yes. It is a bit riskier late in the game, I certainly agree with that, but if Wanyama makes that pass Chelsea are also somewhat out of balance. I wouldn't call it high risk, but kind of "medium risk medium reward" kind of thing.

I'm OK with that. Going for the win. It wasn't like it was a ridiculous gamble. One thing is Wanyama not making the pass, but to be stripped that cleanly - almost unforgivable. It took Chelsea two major mistakes (not considering the throw a mistake) for them to score.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Wanyama had 3 options when he got the ball - both sides and back pass. He half assed a pass and gave it up.

Can't blame that on Lloris. The ensuing Alonso shot on the other hand......


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

I found that Lloris was poorly positioned for Alonso's first too.


----------



## YEM

my point-of-view is a bit skewed as I was a goalie & was always cautioned to be extra careful with my distributions late in matches, as the field players are tired and they may not be able to react as quickly to a dodgy one [I played at a high level here in the US and I'm well aware that these pros should be able to deal with this kind of stuff way better-yeah, Wanyama] and this goes doubly for a tight match


----------



## Made Dan

I've only been following the PL / soccer in general for a few years, tend to only watch City / marquee matches. Looking for an honest assessment from those more informed than I. How deep is City's forward group? On paper I'm impressed but not overly familiar with the new players / how the group as a whole is perceived on a grand scale. With the Sanchez rumors, would he be overkill? Would he provide them the best attack in Europe like Pep alluded to?


----------



## Adele Dazeem

Made Dan said:


> I've only been following the PL / soccer in general for a few years, tend to only watch City / marquee matches. Looking for an honest assessment from those more informed than I. How deep is City's forward group? On paper I'm impressed but not overly familiar with the new players / how the group as a whole is perceived on a grand scale. With the Sanchez rumors, would he be overkill? Would he provide them the best attack in Europe like Pep alluded to?




Sanchez would definitely not be overkill; hence why they want him. They want to win trophies and in order to do that, your subs need to seamlessly get in the starting-11. 

I think as of now, they are a tier below Real and PSG. I think their offense, although good on paper, is overrated. Sane, I'm not sold on. Silva is still new and will need time to be incorporated. Sterling and Aguero are solid but have a tendency to be inconsistent at times. De Bruyne needs to find that next step; I always expect more out of him from when I watch City. On top of all that they're backline is still suspect with Otamendi and an ageing Kompany getting plenty of starting-11 time.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Adele Dazeem said:


> Sanchez would definitely not be overkill; hence why they want him. They want to win trophies and in order to do that, your subs need to seamlessly get in the starting-11.
> 
> I think as of now, they are a tier below Real and PSG. I think their offense, although good on paper, is overrated. Sane, I'm not sold on. Silva is still new and will need time to be incorporated. Sterling and Aguero are solid but have a tendency to be inconsistent at times. De Bruyne needs to find that next step; I always expect more out of him from when I watch City. On top of all that they're backline is still suspect with Otamendi and an ageing Kompany getting plenty of starting-11 time.




This is definitely not a common opinion.

De Bruyne, Silva x2, Sane, Aguero, and Gabriel Jesus is a really nice group.


----------



## Adele Dazeem

Deficient Mode said:


> This is definitely not a common opinion.
> 
> De Bruyne, Silva x2, Sane, Aguero, and Gabriel Jesus is a really nice group.




Who said they were a bad group?

You really think they're better than PSG or Real?


----------



## YNWA14

Sterling is better than Sane or B. Silva tbh and should certainly be listed.

But no it's not on the same level as PSG or Real atm.


----------



## Havre

Sterling is better than B. Silva? I would have to disagree - strongly.

City got a lot of hyped names. Based on yesterday's performance Sane might as well retire. Sterling scored a nice goal, but has the football intelligence of Aaron Lennon so.... kind of pointless at most things he does except taking players on. Even de Bruyne who is the best player in the league at times is just too inconsistent.

Well see. I like them all except Sterling based on their ability (Sterling is OK of course, but not in that elite league). I could see them "clicking" at some point and then they might all suddenly look world class.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Danny Rose is set for decisive talks with Tottenham Hotspur this week after a breakdown of his relationship with manager Mauricio Pochettino, sources have told ESPN FC, with Manchester United interested in the defender.

Rose's agent, Mark Rankine, is due to meet to Daniel Levy for crunch talks on Wednesday but the Spurs chairman is expected to reiterate that Rose is not for sale, despite the left-back's desire to leave the club before the transfer deadline.

The sources said that Rose and Pochettino have not spoken privately since the defender's explosive interview with a national newspaper a fortnight ago, even after Rose issued a written apology.

The England international, who was fined two weeks wages' for the outburst, was once so close to Pochettino that he was jokingly referred to as the "gaffer's son" by his teammates but their relationship, which was already cooling, has deteriorated since Rose broke ranks and criticised the club's transfer policy and wage structure.

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/socc...or-decisive-talks-on-tottenham-future-sources


----------



## bleedblue1223

Tottenham will be hurting if they lose him too.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

bleedblue1223 said:


> Tottenham will be hurting if they lose him too.




He's not leaving this summer and I already expected him to leave sooner or later.


----------



## Havre

Things can change. I'm not really that bothered. I trust Pochettino long term. Team over individual players every single time. No exceptions. Also long term success over short term every single time (obviously not that easy to define always - but if we are talking 70m for a player that doesn't want to be at the club - which he didn't actually say, but... - then Spurs are better off longer term to sell).

Spurs have lost much better players than Walker and Rose the last 10-15 years and they have still been able to spend 100m on a training ground and on the way to building a new stadium. Patience is key. Even if it means becoming Arsenal for awhile.


----------



## YNWA14

Havre said:


> Sterling is better than B. Silva? I would have to disagree - strongly.
> 
> City got a lot of hyped names. Based on yesterday's performance Sane might as well retire. Sterling scored a nice goal, but has the football intelligence of Aaron Lennon so.... kind of pointless at most things he does except taking players on. Even de Bruyne who is the best player in the league at times is just too inconsistent.
> 
> Well see. I like them all except Sterling based on their ability (Sterling is OK of course, but not in that elite league). I could see them "clicking" at some point and then they might all suddenly look world class.




Sterling just needs to work on his composure, but yes he's better than Silva right now. Even when they were against eachother in the CL Sterling was much more impactful. He has a few things to work out of course (shooting, composure, petulance), like any young player, but he has just as much potential as guys like Sane or Silva, if not more because of his physical gifts. As far as his footballing intelligence...what? He puts in a pretty good defensive shift, is tactically flexible, and creates a lot of chances for others with smart plays.


----------



## Luigi Habs

spintheblackcircle said:


> Danny Rose is set for decisive talks with Tottenham Hotspur this week after a breakdown of his relationship with manager Mauricio Pochettino, sources have told ESPN FC, with Manchester United interested in the defender.
> 
> Rose's agent, Mark Rankine, is due to meet to Daniel Levy for crunch talks on Wednesday but the Spurs chairman is expected to reiterate that Rose is not for sale, despite the left-back's desire to leave the club before the transfer deadline.
> 
> The sources said that Rose and Pochettino have not spoken privately since the defender's explosive interview with a national newspaper a fortnight ago, even after Rose issued a written apology.
> 
> The England international, who was fined two weeks wages' for the outburst, was once so close to Pochettino that he was jokingly referred to as the "gaffer's son" by his teammates but their relationship, which was already cooling, has deteriorated since Rose broke ranks and criticised the club's transfer policy and wage structure.
> 
> http://www.espn.co.uk/football/socc...or-decisive-talks-on-tottenham-future-sources




Why would Pocchetino be upset with Rose? If anything he should be happy with him because his interview put pressure on Levy.


----------



## Havre

Luiginho said:


> Why would Pocchetino be upset with Rose? If anything he should be happy with him because his interview put pressure on Levy.




I don't understand this logic at all.

And Pochettino doesn't need anyone else to put pressure on Levy for him. With the results Pochettino has delivered all he need is to ask and Levy will do everything he can do deliver.

Pochettino is a team first guy. That interview undermines that too some extent.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Well, Danny himself set up an exclusive interview with The Sun of all papers. He also said quite some disrespectful things. I could see a few players taking offense from the google remark for example.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Havre said:


> Pochettino is a team first guy.




Here is a partial list of those who have spoken out about playing time or wages:

Emmanuel Adebayor
Younes Kaboul
Etienne Capoue
Benjamin Stambouli 

Now, other than being underwhelming, the other thing in common is they were shown the door.


----------



## Havre

Exactly.

Now I don't think it means there is no way back. He criticised Sissoko publically and has since let him back in (granted that was slightly different as he questioned his professionalism - not his loyalty - I think loyalty is worse for Pochettino).

If he believes Rose is truly sorry and shows that he is willing to put in the extra effort to make amends then I don't see why he couldn't play for Spurs again under Pochettino. If not he is out and I honestly don't think he cares too much.


----------



## Theon

Marcos Rojo and Luke Shaw back in first team training.


----------



## Jussi

Theon said:


> Marcos Rojo and Luke Shaw back in first team training.




Both played 60 minutes with the reserves. Might be back at least on the bench after the international break.


----------



## Savant

Interesting content regarding Liverpool's set piece deficiencies. There is a pattern!

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/com..._to_analyze_every_single_corner_goal/.compact

"Conclusion: Liverpool arenâ€™t great at defending corners, but surprisingly rarely do they ever concede a threatening shot directly from them. The fact that none of these corner kicks were assists. Most danger comes from bad defending by people who (don't track) their man once they see the cross is landing somewhere else."

"If you want to score a corner against Liverpool, aim for your biggest off center guy and let everyone else just run forward to score the inevitable tap in after it doesnâ€™t get cleared."


----------



## Savant

Alexis Sanchez will be available for match day 3 against Liverpool.


----------



## YNWA14

Savant said:


> Alexis Sanchez will be available for match day 3 against Liverpool.




It's okay, we have Firmino and Mane. Maybe there will be fewer excuses if Sanchez plays.


----------



## Savant

Curtinho said:


> Maybe there will be fewer excuses if Sanchez plays.




Didn't want to go out and say this but yes, Arsenal will be playing with their best group. 

(And Liverpool will be coming off a midweek European game, and is still missing one of their two best players)


----------



## 93LEAFS

Jussi said:


> Both played 60 minutes with the reserves. Might be back at least on the bench after the international break.



Rojo didn't. Shaw and Ashley Young did.


----------



## maclean

Savant said:


> Didn't want to go out and say this but yes, Arsenal will be playing with their best group.
> 
> (And Liverpool will be coming off a midweek European game, and is still missing one of their two best players)




Quit making excuses, despite all that I think Arsenal will need a lot of luck to make it through this match.


----------



## Adonis Creed

Arsenal excuses for sunday:

- Atkinson is ref.. 4 W 12 Lost with him in charge 
- Wenger system
- Wellbeck missing 2 easy goals
- Playing a LB at CB
- Playing RWB at LWB
- Lazy Ozil

4-2 Liverpool is my prediction... this midfiel plus coaching is horriblle


----------



## These Are The Days

I don't think the Gunners are gonna be able to find any excuse after today. That was a huge gut-check for LFC


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## spintheblackcircle

Former England captain Wayne Rooney has been arrested on suspicion of drink driving near his Â£6million home in Cheshire.

The 31-year-old striker was seen dancing on the tables and singing Oasis songs in the Bubble Room bar in Alderley Edge last night, according to the Metro. 

He posed for photographs with fans inside the venue and was later stopped by police following his night out just a few miles from his home. 

Sources said he is still under arrest after being taken to a local police station where he was quizzed by officers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sp...-Rooney-arrested-suspicion-drink-driving.html


----------



## YNWA14

So post transfer window round-up for Liverpool?

*Forward:* Firmino, Mane, Salah, Sturridge, Solanke, Coutinho*, Ings, Woodburn*
*Midfield:* Coutinho*, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Can, Ox, Lallana, Milner, Grujic, Woodburn*
*Fullback:* Clyne, Robertson, TAA, Moreno, Gomez*, Milner*
*Centreback:* Lovren, Matip, Gomez*, Klavan, Can*
*Keeper:* Mignolet, Karius, Ward

Not much to say about all the additions as it's been over a while and we can see that Robertson has looked very bright, Salah has hit the ground running (lul) and Solanke has also looked very promising. Ox brings a different element to our midfield with his ability to drive forward with the ball, be very direct and create chances and he is very versatile also.

All in all aside from the apparent lack of quality depth at CB this team has become very deep, especially with the potential to call Origi back from loan if necessary.

In terms of starting XI I'd trot out this:

Mane - Firmino - Salah
Wijnaldum - Ox
Henderson
Robertson - Lovren - Matip - Clyne
Mignolet​
Until Coutinho is reintegrated into the team. Can has played well but he still slows down the midfield too much at times, and makes some really poor decisions when he's being played in one of the more forward midfield 2 spots; he'd be at his best rotating with Henderson as the 6 (plus rumours are he wants to leave after this season anyway so better to integrate players that are going to be here long term or are actual game changers for us).

For me they have the potential to win the title if they don't face any real injury issues. The winter window can be used to reinforce if necessary, but with the relative level of their CL group they should be able to focus mostly on the PL schedule until the knockout rounds. I would say they have a floor of 4th unless something catastrophic happens (multiple long term injuries to like Firmino, Mane and one of the starting CBs or something).

As for the CL...I think they will go the furthest of any EPL team as long as they don't draw PSG/RM early. Very excited for this season and their play to this point has only made me more excited; they've been electric. Adding Keita next season while continuing to integrate youngsters is only going to make us stronger moving forward. I'm very happy with how Klopp has approached the transfer market and not spending needlessly or wasting time having to bring many players up to speed at the same time. The money is there to get key targets if necessary (and the other club is willing to sell). This team looks competitive and sustainable under his guidance and management is backing him with what he needs.

All in all Liverpool as a club look to be in a very bright spot ATM.


----------



## Burner Account

Anything is possible but IMO for Liverpool the focus needs to be the same as last year: top four.

Depending on what happens in January and next summer, though, next year can be a different story.


----------



## Savant

Can Liverpool get away with a midfield three of Coutinho-Henderson-Lallana when Lallana is fit? 

I think Emre Can is the favorite to start in that slot but Wijnaldum and AOC certainly make sense as well.


----------



## S E P H

As everyone, including cgf and his amount of tactic/formation posts , Arsenal cannot win anything conducting this 3-4-3 anymore. I suggest it's safer and better foundation to go back to the 4-2-3-1...

Lacazette
Alexis - Ozil - Welbeck
Xhaka - Coquelin
Monreal - Mustafi - Koscielny - Bellerin
Cech​
Bench
Giroud for Lacazette
Ramsey for Ozil
Iwobi for Alexis/Welbeck
Walcott for Alexis/Welbeck
Wilshere for Xhaka (would rather give Wilshere the try now)
Elneny for Coquelin
Nelson for Coquelin/Xhaka
Mertesacker for Mustafi


----------



## YNWA14

When Lallana is fit I don't think he's a starter. Still need midfield balance. For me it would be:

Coutinho/Ox - Wijnaldum/Lallana
Henderson/Can​
Though I imagine Klopp will switch it up depending on the opposition. Against the top 6 Wijnaldum is a sure starter, but maybe against low blocks it'd be better to have Lallana/Ox instead since they're more forward thinking and less dependent on transitional play.


----------



## Savant

Curtinho said:


> When Lallana is fit I don't think he's a starter. Still need midfield balance. For me it would be:
> 
> Coutinho/Ox - Wijnaldum/Lallana
> Henderson/Can​
> Though I imagine Klopp will switch it up depending on the opposition. Against the top 6 Wijnaldum is a sure starter, but maybe against low blocks it'd be better to have Lallana/Ox instead since they're more forward thinking and less dependent on transitional play.




Klopp was very reliant on Lallana last season. It's hard for me to envision him being dropped so easily when he is fit. Having options is nice but I hope some one separates themselves between EC, GW & AOC. Although I think they are are better for different style games.


----------



## YNWA14

Savant said:


> Klopp was very reliant on Lallana last season. It's hard for me to envision him being dropped so easily when he is fit. Having options is nice but I hope some one separates themselves between EC, GW & AOC. Although I think they are are better for different style games.




tbf he didn't have many options last season and Coutinho was still playing up top. With all of Coutinho, Ox, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Can and Milner as other options this season (and maybe Woodburn) I think Lallana will find it harder to get into games consistently (which is probably for the best given his durability).

He also had 1 goal and 0 assists in the entirety of 2017 where his impact diminished greatly. I personally think he was just in great form earlier in the season, but ultimately he should be a squad player. I would play Can over him even.


----------



## Savant

Curtinho said:


> tbf he didn't have many options last season and Coutinho was still playing up top. With all of Coutinho, Ox, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Can and Milner as other options this season (and maybe Woodburn) I think Lallana will find it harder to get into games consistently (which is probably for the best given his durability).
> 
> He also had 1 goal and 0 assists in the entirety of 2017 where his impact diminished greatly. I personally think he was just in great form earlier in the season, but ultimately he should be a squad player. I would play Can over him even.




True, but Lallana was also the trigger man off the press.


----------



## Live in the Now

Markovic was named in the Liverpool squad. Have no idea why they would want him there or if he'd ever play.

So was Flanagan even though he won't play.


----------



## YNWA14

Depth. Also maybe Markovic hasn't been completely given up on yet. Who knows.


----------



## Savant

Markovic is your break in case of emergency player at wing. Same with Flanagan at full back


----------



## Stray Wasp

spintheblackcircle said:


> Former England captain Wayne Rooney has been arrested on suspicion of drink driving near his Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£6million home in Cheshire.
> 
> The 31-year-old striker was seen dancing on the tables and singing Oasis songs in the Bubble Room bar in Alderley Edge last night, according to the Metro.
> 
> He posed for photographs with fans inside the venue and was later stopped by police following his night out just a few miles from his home.
> 
> Sources said he is still under arrest after being taken to a local police station where he was quizzed by officers.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sp...-Rooney-arrested-suspicion-drink-driving.html




Rooney, age 31, said: 'I retired from international football to spend more time with my lager.'


----------



## bleedblue1223

I can just imagine Rooney on a table drunkenly singing Wonderwall. Of all bands to sing, he chooses Oasis lol.


----------



## Savant

bleedblue1223 said:


> I can just imagine Rooney on a table drunkenly singing Wonderwall. Of all bands to sing, he chooses Oasis lol.




These are the posts when Rooney gets busted. 

Compare to the posts last year when Firmino got busted.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Savant said:


> These are the posts when Rooney gets busted.
> 
> Compare to the posts last year when Firmino got busted.




If I posted on that and he was singing to Nickelback or Creed, I'd post the same thing.

Obviously drinking and driving is a stupid thing to do.


----------



## gary69

bleedblue1223 said:


> I can just imagine Rooney on a table drunkenly singing Wonderwall. Of all bands to sing, he chooses Oasis lol.




Oasis fits very well with his age though, he was an impressionable kid at just the right time in 1996 when football was coming home and Oasis hit the stardom.


----------



## Ceremony

Also Oasis are a terrible band gravitated to by habitual drinking morons, so you can see the draw for Rooney. I'm surprised he wasn't belting out Mr. Writer, mind.


----------



## Savant

bleedblue1223 said:


> If I posted on that and he was singing to Nickelback or Creed, I'd post the same thing.
> 
> Obviously drinking and driving is a stupid thing to do.




Not trying to single you out here at all. 

Last year Firmino was crucified. This year Rooney gets kareoke jokes.


----------



## Peen

[Yt]QbNo7LShLvc[/MEDIA]

this guy's impressions are top class


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Savant said:


> Not trying to single you out here at all.
> 
> Last year Firmino was crucified. This year Rooney gets kareoke jokes.




The juxtaposition at the time was Sakho being banished for "condict detrimental to the team" (or whatever the platitude was) and Firmino starting the very next fixture like nothing happened. The highlight was more Klopp's selective managerial hammer than Firmino's drunk driving. 

Drunk driving is a dumbass move no matter who's doing it, and doubly so for moneyed professional footballers.


----------



## gary69

Teams have provided the final squad lists for the season:

https://www.premierleague.com/news/465277

Chelsea have registered only 21 players (Diego Costa is included), but they have at least a couple of U-21s who can contribute (Christensen, Musonda).

Man City has been able to only register 18 players (plus Leroy Sane is U-21), so a few of their better U-21s should see playing time.

Spurs also have only 20 players in their squad, although they have several U-21s good enough to contribute so it shouldn't be a problem numberswise.

Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal have full squads.


----------



## Theokritos

Ceremony said:


> Also Oasis are a terrible band




They've got quite a few good songs. And even the numerous ones that aren't good are rather meh than terrible.


----------



## hatterson

gary69 said:


> Man City has been able to only register 18 players (plus Leroy Sane is U-21), so a few of their better U-21s should see playing time.




Jesus is also a u21. Still amazing that a club spending that much can't field a full squad though.


----------



## Jussi

Peen said:


> [Yt]QbNo7LShLvc[/MEDIA]
> 
> Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½ this guy's impressions are top class




Is that the guy behind the voices in Special One TV?


----------



## Prntscrn

Looks like CLyne will be out for a long time. Not included in Kloppos Champions League group stage squad


----------



## Live in the Now

Which means Gomez has to rotate at RB for the time being.

Which means Liverpool has 3 CB's.


----------



## Savant

Live in the Now said:


> Which means Gomez has to rotate at RB for the time being.
> 
> Which means Liverpool has 3 CB's.




Don't forget about Flanni Alves. He is the Scouse Cafu. 

Help.


----------



## YNWA14

Ox can play RWB.


----------



## Live in the Now

Milner can probably play RB now that I think of it.


----------



## S E P H




----------



## Blender

Live in the Now said:


> Milner can probably play RB now that I think of it.




Milner seems to manage fairly well in every position he has been tried.


----------



## hatterson

S E P H said:


>





So basically everything they could screw up, they did.

Half the starting XI want to leave, and somehow Arsenal claim they can't spend more becuase of premier league wage rules, which just underlines how badly the contract were mismanaged.

I'm starting to wonder if 6th really is the bottom for this team or if they fall hard in the second half when Ozil and Sanchez are already signed to pre-transfers and don't give a crap anymore.


----------



## Havre

6th isn't bottom. Definitely not.

At the same time not a given that they will just implode either - even if I now think so.

Good thing is that Ã–zil can hardly put in less effort than he already is.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Apparently Barkley was supposed to join Chelsea until Conte decided not to answer his phone.


----------



## bleedblue1223

TopKex said:


> Apparently Barkley was supposed to join Chelsea until Conte decided not to answer his phone.




Reports are all over the place with this one. You also heard that Everton refused to deal with Tottenham and Barkley didn't want to be forced into a decision by Everton. 

Who knows what happened, but it's probably safe to say that Barkley didn't back out in the middle of the medical, for a variety of different reasons.


----------



## YNWA14

S E P H said:


>





Yowch. 

Mightiest club around doing mighty things. It could get real dark for Arsenal for a while. Especially if they're actually deluded enough to believe they'll attract players like Lemar next summer (as they've reportedly said they'll go after him again then).


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

I think Barkley will come in January. Whether or not I want him to is a different question.


----------



## Theon

Arsenal "following the Leicester model"...yikes.


----------



## phisherman

Curtinho said:


> Yowch.
> 
> Mightiest club around doing mighty things. It could get real dark for Arsenal for a while. Especially if they're actually deluded enough to believe they'll attract players like Lemar next summer (as they've reportedly said they'll go after him again then).




Deluded even though Monaco's VP also confirmed Lemar wanted to go to Arsenal.


----------



## S E P H

Curtinho said:


> Yowch.
> 
> Mightiest club around doing mighty things. It could get real dark for Arsenal for a while. Especially if they're actually deluded enough to believe they'll attract players like Lemar next summer (as they've reportedly said they'll go after him again then).




Lemar is not opposed to coming to Arsenal, the board just somehow pissed him off from bidding low amounts in the summer and then miraculously put in a 90 million pound bid on the last day. Of course they couldn't until they got rid of Ox's and Sanchez contracts which seems like what held up the transfers. Maybe he won't want to come to Arsenal in the future considering they could have messed up their relationship between him, but I don't believe that to be the case. If Arsenal really want Lemar in the Winter, I believe they can get it done. The problem is him as a replacement to Sanchez and not an addition. 



hatterson said:


> So basically everything they could screw up, they did.
> 
> Half the starting XI want to leave, and somehow Arsenal claim they can't spend more becuase of premier league wage rules, which just underlines how badly the contract were mismanaged.
> 
> I'm starting to wonder if 6th really is the bottom for this team or if they fall hard in the second half when Ozil and Sanchez are already signed to pre-transfers and don't give a crap anymore.



It makes perfect sense now why they were *rumoured* to have no money and why Wenger had to sell players before buying anyone else. However, why the hell did it take so long to get rid of certain players? I get that Arsenal wanted to keep Ox until the last possible day before selling him, but we sold like 9 other players and all of them happened during the last week. They really ****ed themselves up by not getting rid of them sooner and perhaps for one or two million pound losses. 

But it makes me question this sort of stupidity even more. Why come close to violating EPL wage rules and then offer Ox like 200K a week and rumours of 300K a week for Alexis?


----------



## YNWA14

Lemar will not go to Arsenal. You guys don't actually believe this stuff do you? The guys that are there already don't even want to be there.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> I think Barkley will come in January. Whether or not I want him to is a different question.




A further twist, apparently Chelsea kept Conte away from the Barkley transfer because they were afraid of him being brutally honest with him like he was with Ox telling him that he'd be a wing-back and not a CM.


----------



## Savant

Too much fuss for Barkley. He isnt good


----------



## bleedblue1223

Savant said:


> Too much fuss for Barkley. He isnt good




Chelsea's board want English players. Teams with the few good English players won't sell, and that leaves guys like Barkley.

I mean, how many English players are actually good enough to start for a top 6 club? Or if we restrict to the previous top 4?


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Savant said:


> Too much fuss for Barkley. He isnt good




I'd call a top bench player for a top six side a good player.


----------



## Savant

TopKex said:


> I'd call a top bench player for a top six side a good player.




Barkley is not top at anything. If you aren't seeing those highlight reel moments, I assure you he is having no other contribution to the game. He is all hype.


----------



## hatterson

He's all hype, but he's not atrocious as a bench option for a squad.

Certainly not the guy who always comes in in the 65th minute of every game, but he's got enough talent to play cup games, low opponents, and fill out a homegrown slot on the roster.


----------



## Live in the Now

hatterson said:


> He's all hype, but he's not atrocious as a bench option for a squad.
> 
> Certainly not the guy who always comes in in the 65th minute of every game, but he's got enough talent to play cup games, low opponents, and fill out a homegrown slot on the roster.




It's pretty easy to look decent when playing in the same attack as Lukaku, but that's all he is. Decent. But I guess if a team doesn't retain their own academy players it's an inevitability they'll be signing players that are merely decent.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Live in the Now said:


> It's pretty easy to look decent when playing in the same attack as Lukaku, but that's all he is. Decent. But I guess if a team doesn't retain their own academy players it's an inevitability they'll be signing players that are merely decent.




For a bench option on a top team, he'd be fine. Considering he'd be surrounded by even more talent on any of the top teams, he's still be good enough to create some chances and score some goals. No one is saying he'd start, and Chelsea and Tottenham weren't buying him to be a starter either.


----------



## hatterson

Live in the Now said:


> It's pretty easy to look decent when playing in the same attack as Lukaku, but that's all he is. Decent. But I guess if a team doesn't retain their own academy players it's an inevitability they'll be signing players that are merely decent.




Yea, I'm not arguing he's anything more than decent. I'm just saying he's not some black hole who will be the worst player on the pitch.

Sure, if you're regularly starting him in CL games, you're gonna have a bad time, but he's not the worst option ever to have as a 2nd/3rd CAM or something if you're hit by injuries and need homegrown players.


----------



## Edo

Curtinho said:


> Yowch.
> 
> Mightiest club around doing mighty things. It could get real dark for Arsenal for a while. Especially if they're actually deluded enough to believe they'll attract players like Lemar next summer (as they've reportedly said they'll go after him again then).




Sanchez, Ozil, Lacazette, etc. They haven't really had any issues attracting top talent. Why wouldn't Lemar go to Arsenal? Why would he choose Liverpool over Arsenal? As an example.


----------



## Live in the Now

Two of those players won't be there next season for example.

Wherever Lemar decides to go will be entirely based on the level the teams play at this season, or if other teams with better results want him, so there's no point in debating it at all.


----------



## Baxterman

Edo said:


> Sanchez, Ozil, Lacazette, etc. They haven't really had any issues attracting top talent. Why wouldn't Lemar go to Arsenal? Why would he choose Liverpool over Arsenal? As an example.




Wouldn't the easiest answer be Champions League?

Beyond on that some people (wrongly) believe that Liverpool is on the rise and (rightly) that Arsenal is in a bit of shambles. Perhaps he doesn't really want to be part of the mess that is going on and the uncertainty of Wenger staying or going.


----------



## Chimaera

Why is Liverpool not on the rise? Most of their talent is young. They have a great manager. They're in the CL, they've got high revenues and decent assets. Why wouldn't they be getting better?

Mane, Firmino and Salah could and should get better. They cover a lot of warts.


----------



## Savant

Edo said:


> Sanchez, Ozil, Lacazette, etc. They haven't really had any issues attracting top talent. Why wouldn't Lemar go to Arsenal? Why would he choose Liverpool over Arsenal? As an example.




I don't think you can sell players on being a part of a Wenger project anymore. There is so much turmoil. With Klopp, one thing that Liverpool can offer that Arsenal cannot is steadiness and continuity. And there is not a disconnect between the supporters and the club.


----------



## Baxterman

Chimaera said:


> Why is Liverpool not on the rise? Most of their talent is young. They have a great manager. They're in the CL, they've got high revenues and decent assets. Why wouldn't they be getting better?
> 
> Mane, Firmino and Salah could and should get better. They cover a lot of warts.




I guess I should have expanded on that to say in relation to the top 4. They are still behind both Manchester teams, Chelsea and Tottenham for me so will continue to struggle to make top 4 in the future. Yes they likely won't be seeing a lot of the 8th, 6th and 7th place finishes they have had in the past 5 years but I am not sure they will be seeing many 2nd or even 4th's either.

As for Mane, Salah and Firmino- all of the top teams can say the same things about their attacking players. Liverpool's 3 aren't any better than the other top teams guys.


----------



## Havre

Chimaera said:


> Why is Liverpool not on the rise? Most of their talent is young. They have a great manager. They're in the CL, they've got high revenues and decent assets. Why wouldn't they be getting better?
> 
> Mane, Firmino and Salah could and should get better. They cover a lot of warts.




It's all relative.

Klopp is better than Wenger these days, but it is not like he is that much better than Mourinho, Guardiola, Conte and Pochettino.

Youth is good, but it's not like Spurs for example are old with Alli, Kane, Eriksen etc. And for the others they can just buy Pogba, Lukaku etc. when they need some new players. With the financial muscles these teams got getting younger isn't necessarily that difficult.

I don't necessarily disagree that Liverpool is on the rise. They are getting better every year since that 2nd place (which also was a bit of an outlier). The team has gone from being 6-7th to being title contenders occasionally (not regularly). I don't think it will get any better than that though (unless FFP all of a sudden becomes real).


----------



## bleedblue1223

Leicester missed the deadline by 14 seconds to sign Adrien Silva, that's rough.


----------



## YNWA14

Edo said:


> Sanchez, Ozil, Lacazette, etc. They haven't really had any issues attracting top talent. Why wouldn't Lemar go to Arsenal? Why would he choose Liverpool over Arsenal? As an example.




There were no CL teams in on Lacazette, and Sanchez/Ozil joined Arsenal when the club were in a very different climate. This is the first season post falling out of the top 4, they just got crushed by Liverpool and it's widely reported that many players on the team want out.

Lemar will not choose Arsenal over the other clubs that will come calling for him this summer. The same would have been true for Lacazette, but aside from Atletico nobody seems to want him.

I shouldn't have to explain why Lemar would choose Liverpool over Arsenal now.


----------



## hatterson

bleedblue1223 said:


> Leicester missed the deadline by 14 seconds to sign Adrien Silva, that's rough.




They say they're still appealing, but from the looks of it, he won't be able to play for them until January.


----------



## phisherman

Curtinho said:


> There were no CL teams in on Lacazette, and Sanchez/Ozil joined Arsenal when the club were in a very different climate. This is the first season post falling out of the top 4, they just got crushed by Liverpool and it's widely reported that many players on the team want out.
> 
> Lemar will not choose Arsenal over the other clubs that will come calling for him this summer. The same would have been true for Lacazette, but aside from Atletico nobody seems to want him.
> 
> I shouldn't have to explain why Lemar would choose Liverpool over Arsenal now.




I didn't know you can read minds and predict the future.

I bet you were all giddy when Liverpool thrashed Chelsea last year only to watch them lift the EPL trophy at the end of the season. But Liverpool is on par with PSG and Real right?


----------



## YNWA14

phisherman said:


> I didn't know you can read minds and predict the future.




Now you know.



> I bet you were all giddy when Liverpool thrashed Chelsea last year only to watch them lift the EPL trophy at the end of the season. But Liverpool is on par with PSG and Real right?




I mean, I was pretty hopeful they'd make top 4 (and they did). They also ran rampant over Arsenal early last season and Arsenal finished outside of the top 4 so...


----------



## Havre

Curtinho said:


> There were no CL teams in on Lacazette, and Sanchez/Ozil joined Arsenal when the club were in a very different climate. This is the first season post falling out of the top 4, they just got crushed by Liverpool and it's widely reported that many players on the team want out.
> 
> Lemar will not choose Arsenal over the other clubs that will come calling for him this summer. The same would have been true for Lacazette, but aside from Atletico nobody seems to want him.
> 
> I shouldn't have to explain why Lemar would choose Liverpool over Arsenal now.




I agree that Arsenal will have some issues short term recruiting, but with Sanchez and Ãƒâ€“zil gone they will have a lot of money available to pay a couple of new players ridiculous salaries. Arsenal in such a situation could pay Lemar a lot more than Liverpool can/could.

So not exactly a given that Lemar would choose Liverpool.

As soon as Wenger is gone Arsenal will be more attractive than Liverpool almost regardless. A bit like Pogba going to Utd even if Utd weren't doing well at that point. Arsenal got more money and London > Liverpool.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Lacazette was going to AtlÃ©tico prior to their transfer ban.

So to say no CL teams were interested is false.

Arsenal is still in trouble though. No debating that.


----------



## YNWA14

I said 'aside from Atletico'. Lacazette was clear he wanted to play on a CL team if he were leaving Lyon; that he ended up at Arsenal is telling.



Havre said:


> I agree that Arsenal will have some issues short term recruiting, but with Sanchez and Ãƒ–zil gone they will have a lot of money available to pay a couple of new players ridiculous salaries. Arsenal in such a situation could pay Lemar a lot more than Liverpool can/could.
> 
> So not exactly a given that Lemar would choose Liverpool.
> 
> As soon as Wenger is gone Arsenal will be more attractive than Liverpool almost regardless. A bit like Pogba going to Utd even if Utd weren't doing well at that point. Arsenal got more money and London > Liverpool.




Arsenal will not be more attractive than Liverpool as long as Liverpool have Klopp and are competing in Europe. They don't have more money without CL and they certainly don't spend like they have more money.


----------



## bleedblue1223

I always find it funny how much posters think the world is falling for other clubs having struggles. All it will take for Arsenal is one move, and they are back on the right path. One move, just like what United did, just what Chelsea did, and what Liverpool did. Take a big club struggling, and insert a manager that is a better fit, and they will be back on the right path.


----------



## S E P H

East Coast Bias said:


> Lacazette was going to AtlÃ©tico prior to their transfer ban.
> 
> So to say no CL teams were interested is false.
> 
> Arsenal is still in trouble though. No debating that.




Everything will be okay with Lacazette and potentially with Lemar if Arsenal get CL football next season. Of course that is easier said than done considering how extremely poor we have been this season.


----------



## Chimaera

bleedblue1223 said:


> I always find it funny how much posters think the world is falling for other clubs having struggles. All it will take for Arsenal is one move, and they are back on the right path. One move, just like what United did, just what Chelsea did, and what Liverpool did. Take a big club struggling, and insert a manager that is a better fit, and they will be back on the right path.




One move? 

A new manager? 

It's hard to say that it's the same when they might not spend like United or Chelsea does. They don't even seem willing to spend like Liverpool will. The rot might bee a bit deeper than the manager.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Chimaera said:


> One move?
> 
> A new manager?
> 
> It's hard to say that it's the same when they might not spend like United or Chelsea does. They don't even seem willing to spend like Liverpool will. The rot might bee a bit deeper than the manager.




They are willing, and they've shown in the past that they can replace their star players that leave. They will replace Sanchez and Ozil and get other top players. They need a manager to implement a system that fits the players that they have or bring in. If they do that, the players will come, and they'll be fine.


----------



## Savant

bleedblue1223 said:


> They are willing, and they've shown in the past that they can replace their star players that leave. They will replace Sanchez and Ozil and get other top players. They need a manager to implement a system that fits the players that they have or bring in. If they do that, the players will come, and they'll be fine.




This is the summer that they have to spend big and get Wenger out. Start their new project with a bang. There is going to be a ton of turnover and I don't think any of the London teams want to be designated as third best in that city.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Savant said:


> This is the summer that they have to spend big and get Wenger out. Start their new project with a bang. There is going to be a ton of turnover and *I don't think any of the London teams want to be designated as third best in that city*.




Sure, but it's not like it really matters in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## Live in the Now

It will cost Arsenal about 150m to replace Sanchez and Ozil, and they have all sorts of other problems in their squad that require investment.

This is a make or break season for them, even though the odds are against them they need to get CL football.


----------



## bleedblue1223

It is not make a break. On of the biggest hindrances they had was wages. Once Sanchez and Ozil are off the books, it frees up a lot of money for them. Getting away from the 3-4-3 will help them a lot IMO, so a new manager would fix that. Arsenal have the cash, so if they have another down season performance wise, they'd eventually decide the need to reinvest and get back to the consistent top 4 performances. 

I enjoy seeing them struggle as much as anyone, but people thinking this is a start of a long downfall are missing it IMO. Any big club has the ability for a very quick turnaround. This past summer people were so against the idea that United were still one of the massive clubs, and now most or everyone is looking at them to dominate in England this season. Arsenal can turn it around very quickly with the right couple moves.


----------



## Burner Account

Losing them both on Bosmans is going to suck and tbh is horrendous asset management


----------



## chasespace

bleedblue1223 said:


> It is not make a break. On of the biggest hindrances they had was wages. Once Sanchez and Ozil are off the books, it frees up a lot of money for them. Getting away from the 3-4-3 will help them a lot IMO, so a new manager would fix that. Arsenal have the cash, so if they have another down season performance wise, they'd eventually decide the need to reinvest and get back to the consistent top 4 performances.
> 
> I enjoy seeing them struggle as much as anyone, but people thinking this is a start of a long downfall are missing it IMO. Any big club has the ability for a very quick turnaround. This past summer people were so against the idea that United were still one of the massive clubs, and now most or everyone is looking at them to dominate in England this season. Arsenal can turn it around very quickly with the right couple moves.




Arsenal's biggest problem this offseason is they learned that they pay their fringe players far too much. Players that should have been gone in July were dragged out until close to the window closing because teams refused to pay the high fee Arsenal wanted as well as matching the high wages Arsenal handed out.


----------



## Live in the Now

United wasn't turned around in one summer either even though they spent a gigantic pile of money, so that's actually a perfect example. Even if Arsenal would spend that money (probably not), it takes more time. With no CL it is a big problem, so yes, this really is a make or break season in terms of the quality they can attract. There are many more moneyed teams around Europe than there used to be, it's no longer about throwing money at a problem. Players now have some choice where to go and what league they want to be playing in

It is not about making the right moves over the course of one year that fixes problems. It is a longer process. Inevitably when a team spends a lot of money, some of the players they bring in well not play well together. The new manager might not work out either.


----------



## Edo

Live in the Now said:


> *It will cost Arsenal about 150m to replace Sanchez and Ozil, and they have all sorts of other problems in their squad that require investment.*
> 
> This is a make or break season for them, even though the odds are against them they need to get CL football.




Not exactly. Every club has issues. Fans, especially those Liverpool ones, need to worry a little more about their own club. I can't wait until they bow out of the CL so we can give you the same **** you have to our club for the past 17 seasons.


----------



## Live in the Now

Edo said:


> Not exactly. Every club has issues.




It costs about 75m to get players the quality of Sanchez.



> Fans, especially those Liverpool ones, need to worry a little more about their own club.* I can't wait until they bow out of the CL so we can give you the same **** you have to our club for the past 17 seasons.*




You think we care?


----------



## bleedblue1223

Live in the Now said:


> United wasn't turned around in one summer either even though they spent a gigantic pile of money, so that's actually a perfect example. Even if Arsenal would spend that money (probably not), it takes more time. With no CL it is a big problem, so yes, this really is a make or break season in terms of the quality they can attract. There are many more moneyed teams around Europe than there used to be, it's no longer about throwing money at a problem. Players now have some choice where to go and what league they want to be playing in
> 
> It is not about making the right moves over the course of one year that fixes problems. It is a longer process. Inevitably when a team spends a lot of money, some of the players they bring in well not play well together. The new manager might not work out either.




United were turned around by the right manager, getting Mourinho and eventually players that would more fit his style. Arsenal just need to find the right manager, and then provide him with their type of players. I never said it would be an instant turnaround, but 2 years with the right manager is a quick turnaround in my view.


----------



## Live in the Now

To be fair, a lot of the players Mourinho would need to be successful were already at Manchester United. Fellaini isn't a great player or anything, but he's physical, and that can be said for most of the players who were already there.

I do not think Arsenal is in a similar position if Sanchez and Ozil are to leave, as they lack quality in midfield and central defense (and if Sanchez/Ozil leave they lack quality going forward). 

I think they are pretty similar to Liverpool at the end of Benitez's time in charge as quality slowly seeped out of the team, culminating in everything that happened after.


----------



## Live in the Now

> SÃ¡nchez is not, generally, given to public pronouncements but he poured out his heart on Instagram after the defeat in Bolivia. “You get tired of being criticised with reason and without reason, you get tired of those who want you to lose, you get tired of saying to yourself: ‘I’ll get up again,’ after crying after a defeat,” SÃ¡nchez wrote.
> 
> “You get tired of telling the world and people who are with you that everything is going well. And the worst is that no one ever realises how that makes you feel. I have the No7 of Chile on my back and it is a huge responsibility. That’s why it makes me sad that journalists and bad people criticise without knowing.”
> 
> SÃ¡nchez was not the only Arsenal player who wanted out and was denied his wish. HÃ©ctor BellerÃ­n told ArsÃ¨ne Wenger in a face-to-face meeting in early July that his heart was set on a move to Barcelona and, later in the window, Shkodran Mustafi voiced a desire to leave. Both have stayed. The Mesut Ã–zil stand-off rumbles on – the midfielder is running down the final year on his contract, although he lacked suitors over the summer – and what of players such as Mathieu Debuchy and Jack Wilshere?




https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/sep/06/alexis-sanchez-arsenal-arsene-wenger


----------



## YNWA14

United also still finished in 6th despite a massive outlay and new manager.

They've finished in the top 4 once since Fergie left, and they have way more resources and are a much more attractive destination than Arsenal.

The problem is that Arsenal is now falling behind at a pivotal time in the PL where the competition is starting to ramp up. If this had happened to them 5 years ago saying they could rebound quickly would be a lot more feasible. The difference is that now Arsenal are already behind a number of teams, with other teams on the up, they're going to have a very rough season, they're likely going to lose their two top players in the summer and they don't exactly have other young players knocking on the door. The have holes all over their team so they're going to be fighting just to tread water after massive losses; then when you factor in that all the other teams they want to compete with (who are already better than them) are going to keep improving and pushing...

I said it last season before the season even started, but I think that Arsenal fans are going to need to prepare for a down period that could last a while (much like Liverpool have had).


----------



## hatterson

Sanchez and Ozil aren't on massive wages, so it's not like it frees up a ton of money for them to give incoming stars.

They're on ~140k/week each. That's 280k/week in free money when they leave. Plus the ~150k/week you can increase salaries under the PL rules. That's basically 2 elite players.

If they want to increase wages more they would either need to earn CL football (to justify the increase with earnings), sell players (kinda hard to make a profit doing so if you're outlaying a ton to bring in replacements), or trim wages elsewhere.

Wenger has brutally mismanaged assets in the last few transfer windows and the team will suffer because of it.


----------



## chasespace

Edo said:


> Not exactly. Every club has issues. Fans, especially those Liverpool ones, need to worry a little more about their own club. I can't wait until they bow out of the CL so we can give you the same **** you have to our club for the past 17 seasons.




I'm with you on supporting Arsenal but making fun of Liverpool for bouncing out of the group stage or first knockout round when we had to scrape to get into Europa isn't a good look. It's pretty damn petty.

On the subject of Wenger, I do wonder if the board will release him mid-season if it is apparent Arsenal won't be finishing higher than they did last season. For instance: If Arsenal fails to win in their next 6 league games, losing more than they draw, does the board just hit the eject button and bring someone in to start the rebuild in January?


----------



## bleedblue1223

I said they'd be on the right path with a new manager, I don't understand how you guys view that as an immediate turnaround to contender status? Depending on the players that have, they should still compete for a top 4 spot in any given year. They still have a decent chance at top 4 this season. 

Remember what people said of Chelsea during their 10th place season or the start of last season?


----------



## East Coast Bias

The thing with Arsenal is, even if it's clear it's past Wenger's time, it's not going to be easy to just replace him. Maybe on a managerial/tactical level, sure. But the issue United faced with Fergie wasn't just managerial related. He was United. They didn't have the structure of a "modern" club. Once Gill left, Fergie ran every little detail in the entire club. 

I'm not an expert on Arsenal, but from everything I've read, and his longevity at the club, they'll probably face similar issues.


----------



## Savant

Edo said:


> Not exactly. Every club has issues. Fans, especially those Liverpool ones, need to worry a little more about their own club. I can't wait until they bow out of the CL so we can give you the same **** you have to our club for the past 17 seasons.




Only one team can win the CL every year. I don't think anyone is expecting Liverpool to win it this year, but at least they have won it five times already. How many time has Arsenal won it again?

Liverpool have their work cut out as well but I don't think it's really debatable that they are a move stable club than Arsenal at the moment. Beating you lot 4-0 was nice but if Arsenal feast on the bad teams and Liverpool struggle against them again, it may come down to the last game of the season again. There is a long way to go.


----------



## Live in the Now

East Coast Bias said:


> The thing with Arsenal is, even if it's clear it's past Wenger's time, it's not going to be easy to just replace him. Maybe on a managerial/tactical level, sure. But the issue United faced with Fergie wasn't just managerial related. He was United. They didn't have the structure of a "modern" club. Once Gill left, Fergie ran every little detail in the entire club.
> 
> I'm not an expert on Arsenal, but from everything I've read, and his longevity at the club, they'll probably face similar issues.



Exactly. The quality of manager they attract will also be dependent on this season. It's a massive season for them that will determine their 5-10 year future.

That people get mad about this discussion when it's a Thursday with nothing going on is a little confusing.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Live in the Now said:


> Exactly. The quality of manager they attract will also be dependent on this season. It's a massive season for them that will determine their 5-10 year future.




No it won't. Chelsea finished 10th, and attracted the manager that posters just voted the 2nd best in the world. Arsenal can finish whatever and still attract a top manager. Thinking this season will have any significant impact on 5-10 years from now is crazy.


----------



## Live in the Now

bleedblue1223 said:


> No it won't. Chelsea finished 10th, and attracted the manager that posters just voted the 2nd best in the world. Arsenal can finish whatever and still attract a top manager. Thinking this season will have any significant impact on 5-10 years from now is crazy.




Do Arsenal have any players who won the league in 2015?

That's why Chelsea could get the manager they wanted.


----------



## hatterson

In regards to attracting managers, it's a lot different being Chelsea when you're a year off winning the title and have much of the same squad in place than being Arsenal likely coming off two consecutive years of being out of the CL and simultaneously losing two of your best players.


----------



## phisherman

Live in the Now said:


> Do Arsenal have any players who won the league in 2015?
> 
> That's why Chelsea could get the manager they wanted.




5-10 years is being overdramatic.

I'm sure they could attract Blanc or Tuchel for example.

Also A LOT of players will have their contract expire next year. Part of the reason they didn't spend much this year is because they are gearing to load up next year once a lot of the dead weight are gone.


----------



## bleedblue1223

And if they sign Lemar, they basically go from Sanchez and Ozil to Lacazette and Lemar. Still downgrades, but a team you can definitely work with. Considering the amount of resources that a manager would have to work with, it's a very attractive job. There are only a handful of jobs like that across Europe. If they ever move on from Wenger, I'd be willing to bet they'd invest pretty significantly for their new manager, assuming the dead weight gets off the books.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Arsenal could lose Ã–zil and Sanchez for nothing and they'd still be a top 6 club in the EPL and would still attract a top foreign manager. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Their annual revenue is still well over twice the 7th highest EPL club, and towers over Tottenham's for that matter.


----------



## chasespace

The manager I want coming to Arsenal is Jardim. Throw money at him and don't stop until he says that's enough.


----------



## VEGASKING

Sanchez will still go to City for like 30m in the winter unless Arsenal are legit challengers for the top 4 in which case they would probably try to keep him. City or any other English team cannot agree a contract with him in January.


----------



## chasespace

VEGASKING said:


> Sanchez will still go to City for like 30m in the winter unless Arsenal are legit challengers for the top 4 in which case they would probably try to keep him. City or any other English team cannot agree a contract with him in January.




Only way City does that is if they think Sanchez will bring them a trophy in that 6 months. If not, they'll have a contract all but agreed to and wait for July 1st.


----------



## Stray Wasp

bleedblue1223 said:


> Leicester missed the deadline by 14 seconds to sign Adrien Silva, that's rough.




Had they not been allowed three full months to organise the deals they needed, I'd agree with you. 

Given that context, I think it's inept planning.


----------



## Stray Wasp

hatterson said:


> In regards to attracting managers, it's a lot different being Chelsea when you're a year off winning the title and have much of the same squad in place than being Arsenal likely coming off two consecutive years of being out of the CL and simultaneously losing two of your best players.




Indeed.

And I'm sure it helped that in the summer of 2016, Chelsea were a mere four years removed from winning the European Cup. 

In comparison, 'We went unbeaten in the 2003-04 EPL season,' is ancient history.


----------



## phisherman

Stray Wasp said:


> Indeed.
> 
> And I'm sure it helped that in the summer of 2016, Chelsea were a mere four years removed from winning the European Cup.
> 
> In comparison, 'We went unbeaten in the 2003-04 EPL season,' is ancient history.




If Liverpool can attract a top quality manager then chances are Arsenal can attract them as well.


----------



## Edo

Man, are Ozil and Sanchez overrated.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Edo said:


> Man, are Ozil and Sanchez overrated.




Ã–zil is definitely underrated.


----------



## YNWA14

Deficient Mode said:


> Ã–zil is definitely underrated.




Which is why there was no market for him?


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Stray Wasp said:


> Had they not been allowed three full months to organise the deals they needed, I'd agree with you.
> 
> Given that context, I think it's inept planning.




All I know is that they wanted to sell Drinkwater first.


----------



## KJS14

Curtinho said:


> Which is why there was no market for him?




Good, we'd rather keep one of the best 10s in the world. Now if only we'd get rid of the 3-4-3 and play him properly like Germany does.


----------



## les Habs

Deficient Mode said:


> Arsenal could lose Ã–zil and Sanchez for nothing and they'd still be a top 6 club in the EPL and would still attract a top foreign manager. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Their annual revenue is still well over twice the 7th highest EPL club, and towers over Tottenham's for that matter.




That's not to mention the stadium and other draws the club has.


----------



## Chimaera

They're still an attractive stop, but there has to be some assurance that they're going to spend. 

Tuchel won't show up and manage them if they're out of the CL, losing both of their best assets (and two or three of their other better players want out) with no promises of a major spend. Heck, even if they do want to spend, I don't know that they pay the wages or ridiculous money that will attract players who other clubs who have CL will be able to offer. It's one thing to get a Lacazette, when basically no one wanted him (or was prevented from getting him by a transfer ban), but if Lemar is the guy next summer, what's to keep him going to Arsenal if three or four other clubs with similar bids offer CL instead? It's going to be a longer process. 

Klopp for what it's worth hasn't shown a desire to go to the top at the start. He could probably be at Bayern if he really wanted. Even with that said, he has been given assurances that FSG will spend what he wants to an extent. Is Arsenal going to do that? 

It's one thing to play on their past laurels, but in the new EPL, there are 7-8 clubs who can really compete. Right or wrong, Liverpool, City, Spurs, and United are further down the road of a rebuild and retooling than they are. They're behind the ball, and one move won't make that difference. You're looking at a two or three year process, minimum. 


I also think some of the trouble in replacing the manager is you lose some of his talents. While he might be losing the mark tactically, he's still decent at developing and spotting young players. If you get rid of him, is the Academy the same?


----------



## Chimaera

Curtinho said:


> Which is why there was no market for him?




He's aging, will want big wages, and probably more importantly, takes a bit of work to fit in tactically. 

He's not a plug and play guy, and in this day of pressing, I don't know that he's exactly what some managers would be looking for. 


I also would say that, there's no real telling what Arsenal actually wanted. If what they wanted for Sanchez is any tell, they probably wanted 50-60 million for him, which is ridiculous in the contract term he's got left. Why spend that on him if you know he's probably not going to resign and you can get him for free in the summer?


----------



## maclean

Savant said:


> This is the summer that they have to spend big and get Wenger out. Start their new project with a bang. There is going to be a ton of turnover and I don't think any of the London teams want to be designated as third best in that city.




Honestly, this WAS the summer to spend big and get Wenger out. Anything that happens now is going to be making up for lost time



Curtinho said:


> I said it last season before the season even started, but I think that Arsenal fans are going to need to prepare for a down period that could last a while (much like Liverpool have had).




Like with anything in life, waiting isn't so bad as long as you can see a light at the end of the tunnel. As long as Wenger's in place though it's like lighting matches trying to light up the tunnel instead of getting down to actually moving out of it


----------



## Chimaera

Note it isn't all doom and gloom. They're an attractive club with some history. They play in London. 

Heck, if they were to go on the market, they'd be snapped up by an oil baron or someone with stupid money. They should be able to command revenues that only 7-8 clubs can match. 

They have some talented players. The problem is they need a new manager, 2-3 elite players (if they lose the two they've got) and 3-4 decent players. Maybe someone on their roster improves, maybe Lacazette is elite. It's interesting. I think you could get a young manager who might gamble and take a go at it.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Chimaera said:


> Tuchel won't show up and manage them if they're out of the CL, losing both of their best assets (and two or three of their other better players want out) with no promises of a major spend.




That's exactly what he did in Dortmund. If anything, he was a hotter commodity two or three years ago. There aren't many jobs more attractive than Arsenal, and it's certainly unlikely several of them open up the same summer.



Chimaera said:


> It's one thing to play on their past laurels, but in the new EPL, there are 7-8 clubs who can really compete. Right or wrong, Liverpool, City, Spurs, and United are further down the road of a rebuild and retooling than they are. They're behind the ball, and one move won't make that difference. You're looking at a two or three year process, minimum.




The EPL table still correlates very strongly with the richest clubs that pay the highest wages - the rare Leicester run aside. There definitely aren't 7-8 clubs that can compete with Arsenal, even if they rebuild. 

The overreaction to their loss to Liverpool is absurd. With Ã–zil healthy they were on pace for third place last season.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Deficient Mode said:


> The overreaction to their loss to Liverpool is absurd.




Not sure if it's just Arsenal bashing because it's fun and easy to kick em when they're down or just all the Liverpool fans being a bit too high after that match.


----------



## phisherman

bleedblue1223 said:


> Not sure if it's just Arsenal bashing because it's fun and easy to kick em when they're down or just all the Liverpool fans being a bit too high after that match.




Liverpool are up there with PSG and Real apparently. Make of that what you will.


----------



## Havre

PL closing the window next summer before the season starts. Perfect. About time.


----------



## YNWA14

Deficient Mode said:


> The EPL table still correlates very strongly with the richest clubs that pay the highest wages - the rare Leicester run aside. There definitely aren't 7-8 clubs that can compete with Arsenal, even if they rebuild.




Liverpool finished in 8th and Chelsea finished in 10th only a season ago. I don't think anyone's suggesting they're going to finish mid table consistently but realistically speaking they could easily find themselves down the table a season or two given the current state of the club.



> The overreaction to their loss to Liverpool is absurd. With Ã–zil healthy they were on pace for third place last season.




They've already lost to Stoke this season, their tactical approach is terrible, their players don't want to play for them and they got absolutely played off the pitch by a team that had just played midweek, and still wasn't full strength.

Where is the overreaction? Arsenal is very clearly in a difficult position this season. Most of their fans expect top 4 and that's not a realistic goal for them.


----------



## Savant

Arsenal always start slow. They will probably be in the mix in April.


----------



## Chimaera

I'm not saying they're done. I do feel it's an over reaction. 

But it's not just me saying that it might be a bit of a struggle if they don't do some major changes. Heck, go to any Arsenal board and you'll see much of the same. 

If I'm Tuchel, why do I sign there? that's a better question. You don't think he can't get a better job if it's out there?


----------



## bleedblue1223

Chimaera said:


> If I'm Tuchel, why do I sign there? that's a better question. You don't think he can't get a better job if it's out there?




How many better jobs are there than Arsenal, and how many of those will actually be available?


----------



## YNWA14

Something tells me Coutinho won't take long to play again. He looks very distraught to be back at Liverpool.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Chimaera said:


> I'm not saying they're done. I do feel it's an over reaction.
> 
> But it's not just me saying that it might be a bit of a struggle if they don't do some major changes. Heck, go to any Arsenal board and you'll see much of the same.
> 
> If I'm Tuchel, why do I sign there? that's a better question. You don't think he can't get a better job if it's out there?




Well according to this forum, Tuchel isn't a top 10 coach in the world. Arsenal clearly is a top 10 club in terms of resources and prestige. Unless one of the handful of bigger jobs (Barca?) opens up, why wouldn't he?


----------



## Havre

Wouldn't Arsenal be absolutely perfect for Tuchel? Fairly young coach being allowed to rebuild a big club? Almost as if Arsenal becomes more attractive to Tuchel if he can build something from scratch (not that I know his personality that well).

When Juande Ramos can get a job in Madrid I'm not going to say Tuchel can't do better, but certainly far from given that he would. I think he would take the Arsenal job in a heartbeat.


----------



## Savant

Deficient Mode said:


> Well according to this forum, Tuchel isn't a top 10 coach in the world. Arsenal clearly is a top 10 club in terms of resources and prestige. Unless one of the handful of bigger jobs (Barca?) opens up, why wouldn't he?




I wouldn't want to be the coach that follows Wenger. I would be the coach, that follows the coach that follows Wenger though.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> I wouldn't want to be the coach that follows Wenger. I would be the coach, that follows the coach that follows Wenger though.




It's hard to be that picky when there are so few suitable jobs. And Tuchel's cachet won't live forever if he doesn't get back to work within the next year.


----------



## Havre

Savant said:


> I wouldn't want to be the coach that follows Wenger. I would be the coach, that follows the coach that follows Wenger though.




Why not? With Wenger failing it should be much much easier than if Wenger did a Ferguson.


----------



## YNWA14

I could see Tuchel going to Arsenal when and if Wenger is willing to give up the job. The problem is that between now and then they're not going to be attracting the players most people are going to expect of them, and they don't have a strong infrastructure in place for their team currently especially since they won't have Sanchez and probably not Ozil or Bellerin moving forward.

There's a lot of work there to be done and even in getting Tuchel all of the other top 5 teams they're looking to compete with already have top managers, and better players, and are in a better position to push forward. Simply getting a top manager isn't going to be enough right now. I think they're essentially going to have to wait until one of the other top teams goes into a lull or has a crisis like Chelsea did in 15/16. The problem there is that Chelsea, City and United essentially have unlimited funds and will likely always have a top manager, while Spurs and Liverpool both have very young, competitive teams that they can keep building on. I don't see them in the top 4 again for a while.

But like was said I wouldn't want to be the coach that follows Wenger. Arsenal is not in great shape and with such high expectations and in a 'results now' climate they could be in hot water very quickly.

I mean, United hadn't finished lower than 3rd since 91 and they've missed the top 4 in 3 of 4 seasons since (and that was before the influx of talent/managerial talent at the top). Their resources and prestige dwarf Arsenal.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Wasn't the board the reason to why Tuchel left BVB???


----------



## Deficient Mode

TopKex said:


> Wasn't the board the reason to why Tuchel left BVB???




Tuchel was fired by BVB. He didn't leave. The big narrative now is that he has an abrasive personality and will set fire to everything he touches. I have a lot of doubt about the accuracy and gravity of that, but it was the narrative pushed by the BVB boss and he will certainly carry it with him. I doubt he gets a job like Bayern now after Ancelotti leaves, whereas he was a good candidate a couple years ago.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

> the summer transfer window will end before the start of the season from 2018/19 onwards after premier league clubs agreed a rule amendment today.
> 
> The rule amendment means the summer window will close at 17:00 on the thursday before the start of the season.
> 
> Next season the deadline for transfers by premier league clubs will be 17:00 bst on thursday 9 august 2018.


----------



## Savant

Havre said:


> Why not? With Wenger failing it should be much much easier than if Wenger did a Ferguson.




I don't think it's easy to follow a club legend.


----------



## Havre

Savant said:


> I don't think it's easy to follow a club legend.




Most club legends donÂ´t leave teams in the state Arsenal might be left in (I say - might).


----------



## Evilo

Tuchel or Blanc would absolutely take the Arsenal job.


----------



## bluesfan94

Let's be honest, the bigger jobs than Arsenal right now are:

Chelsea, Man United, Man City, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Juventus, Bayern, PSG

Arguments can be made for Tottenham, Liverpool, Atletico, Dortmund, Monaco

None of those are likely to open up very soon.


----------



## Deficient Mode

bluesfan94 said:


> Let's be honest, the bigger jobs than Arsenal right now are:
> 
> Chelsea, Man United, Man City, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Juventus, Bayern, PSG
> 
> Arguments can be made for Tottenham, Liverpool, Atletico, Dortmund, Monaco
> 
> None of those are likely to open up very soon.




The second group of clubs are mostly better on the field than Arsenal, but I don't think any beat Arsenal's package of revenue and prestige apart from maybe Liverpool.


----------



## bluesfan94

Deficient Mode said:


> The second group of clubs are mostly better on the field than Arsenal, but I don't think any beat Arsenal's package of revenue and prestige apart from maybe Liverpool.




Hahah that was essentially what I meant by arguments could be made.


----------



## KJS14

Curtinho said:


> I could see Tuchel going to Arsenal when and if Wenger is willing to give up the job. The problem is that between now and then they're not going to be attracting the players most people are going to expect of them, and they don't have a strong infrastructure in place for their team currently especially since they won't have Sanchez and probably not Ozil or Bellerin moving forward.
> 
> There's a lot of work there to be done and even in getting Tuchel all of the other top 5 teams they're looking to compete with *already have top managers, and better players, and are in a better position to push forward. Simply getting a top manager isn't going to be enough right now.* I think they're essentially going to have to wait until one of the other top teams goes into a lull or has a crisis like Chelsea did in 15/16. The problem there is that Chelsea, City and United essentially have unlimited funds and will likely always have a top manager, while Spurs and Liverpool both have very young, competitive teams that they can keep building on. I don't see them in the top 4 again for a while.
> 
> But like was said I wouldn't want to be the coach that follows Wenger. Arsenal is not in great shape and with such high expectations and in a 'results now' climate they could be in hot water very quickly.
> 
> I mean, United hadn't finished lower than 3rd since 91 and they've missed the top 4 in 3 of 4 seasons since (and that was before the influx of talent/managerial talent at the top). Their resources and prestige dwarf Arsenal.




What happens when those other teams see their best players/managers leave for the truly elite clubs (Liverpool's and Tottenham's more likely than the other 3)? Do you really think that Eriksen, Dele Alli, Kane, and Poch will all stay at Tottenham for a decade for instance? Sure it could happen, but I doubt it and it's probably inevitable that they lose Poch or one of those guys and the rest follow like we saw with Monaco. 

Arsenal probably won't be contending for the title in the short-term, but top 4 is definitely achievable. Let's not act like these other 5 teams are on some infinite rise.


----------



## Chimaera

Note, with asking that, I wanted to know. It wasn't a rhetorical. 

I think he'd be interested in the Arsenal job, but it does depend on a number of factors. 

I also think some clubs like Chelsea might be open before that (though I think they'd shoot higher) and Bayern potentially.


----------



## Baxterman

KJS14 said:


> What happens when those other teams see their best players/managers leave for the truly elite clubs (Liverpool's and Tottenham's more likely than the other 3)? Do you really think that Eriksen, Dele Alli, Kane, and Poch will all stay at Tottenham for a decade for instance? Sure it could happen, but I doubt it and it's probably inevitable that they lose Poch or one of those guys and the rest follow like we saw with Monaco.
> 
> Arsenal probably won't be contending for the title in the short-term, but top 4 is definitely achievable. Let's not act like these other 5 teams are on some infinite rise.




I imagine they will replace them with other guys like they did when they lost guys like Gerrard, Bale, Suarez and Modric. 

I think the biggest concern with Arsenal right now is there are questions about ownerships commitment to winning and providing the manager with the necessary resources to win. Say what you will about Levy and FSG at least they have shown some ambition and stability that have put the clubs in a pretty good position right now.

Until Arsenal shows that same commitment I think it is perfectly reasonable to have questions about them going forward. That said if this off-season they bring in a new, top level manager (we'll use Tuechel as an example although I think there are better options) and have a successful transfer window then they could quickly turn things around, but based on recent events I think they need to show that they are willing to do that rather than get the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## YNWA14

KJS14 said:


> What happens when those other teams see their best players/managers leave for the truly elite clubs (Liverpool's and Tottenham's more likely than the other 3)? Do you really think that Eriksen, Dele Alli, Kane, and Poch will all stay at Tottenham for a decade for instance? Sure it could happen, but I doubt it and it's probably inevitable that they lose Poch or one of those guys and the rest follow like we saw with Monaco.
> 
> Arsenal probably won't be contending for the title in the short-term, but top 4 is definitely achievable. Let's not act like these other 5 teams are on some infinite rise.




Tottenham is definitely the 'weak link' of those clubs I listed I would imagine. They don't seem inclined to spend very much and they're very reliant on Poch wanting to stay for a while. Though again, the PL is a very good job for most managers for a lot of reasons and if they're confident in themselves I'm sure that Spurs will find a new manager fairly quickly, and they've done a good job of recruiting youth. They have a strong backbone for their team right now.

Klopp has been very clear about his love for Liverpool and it was the only job he wanted so I don't see why he'd leave any time soon.

If anything I'd say that United/City/Chelsea are more likely to lose their manager in the short term simply because of the turnover at those kind of clubs that demand the title/trophies and not much else. I think Liverpool's owners are a little more balanced in their view of their position in soccer; obviously the goal is trophies and top 4, but they have more patience/wiggle room I think especially with someone as charismatic as Klopp (and then Lijnders and Gerrard down the line).

There are maybe 1 or 2 teams out there in the near future I can see poaching players from those teams, and they'll have the means to replace them so I don't think Arsenal is going to have an easy time getting a leg up there unless they are very good with their scouting in the next few years. I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were a 'Gooner' any time soon of a top 4 finish...but stranger things have happened.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Baxterman said:


> I imagine they will replace them with other guys like they did when they lost guys like Gerrard, Bale, Suarez and Modric.
> 
> I think the biggest concern with Arsenal right now is there are questions about ownerships commitment to winning and providing the manager with the necessary resources to win. Say what you will about Levy and FSG at least they have shown some ambition and stability that have put the clubs in a pretty good position right now.
> 
> Until Arsenal shows that same commitment I think it is perfectly reasonable to have questions about them going forward. That said if this off-season they bring in a new, top level manager (we'll use Tuechel as an example although I think there are better options) and have a successful transfer window then they could quickly turn things around, but based on recent events I think they need to show that they are willing to do that rather than get the benefit of the doubt.




Arsenal have easily shown as much commitment as Liverpool or Tottenham.


----------



## Baxterman

bleedblue1223 said:


> Arsenal have easily shown as much commitment as Liverpool or Tottenham.




You think they have the past two seasons?

You would say that Arsenal is as stable as those two clubs and have been as impressive in the transfer market and with over all decision making as those two?

So then all the fan and media talk is just crap?


----------



## Baxterman

Curtinho said:


> Tottenham is definitely the 'weak link' of those clubs I listed I would imagine. They don't seem inclined to spend very much and they're very reliant on Poch wanting to stay for a while. Though again, the PL is a very good job for most managers for a lot of reasons and if they're confident in themselves I'm sure that Spurs will find a new manager fairly quickly, and they've done a good job of recruiting youth. They have a strong backbone for their team right now.




In the last 10 years Tottenham have finished lower than Liverpool twice and yet it is Tottenham that is definitely the weak link. Pochettino was only here for the last 3 of those years. They still twice finished top 4 prior to him coming in. He has definitely taken them up a level but I think it is a pretty big step to say they are very reliant on him. Plus with the new stadium coming that will be a big boost as well.



> Klopp has been very clear about his love for Liverpool and it was the only job he wanted so I don't see why he'd leave any time soon.




A. I would say Klopp is wildly overrated so feel free to keep him 

B. We have never in the history of sports heard a coach/athlete talk about how much they love team/city/club X and then leave that supposed dream job.


----------



## Havre

I love that some would consider Spurs borderline on level with Arsenal, but it isnÂ´t true. With the new stadium and training facilities it is closer than ever, but even with the mess at Arsenal at the moment it is still the bigger job. Maybe Spurs can even things out over the next years, but not there yet.

Monaco isnÂ´t even close to Arsenal in terms of size, reputation and attractiveness for a manager.


----------



## Live in the Now

Curtinho said:


> Something tells me Coutinho won't take long to play again. He looks very distraught to be back at Liverpool.




Coutinho to score the winner Saturday. Nailed on.


----------



## Chimaera

I would laugh if he kisses the badge. 

Kinda.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Baxterman said:


> You think they have the past two seasons?
> 
> You would say that Arsenal is as stable as those two clubs and have been as impressive in the transfer market and with over all decision making as those two?
> 
> So then all the fan and media talk is just crap?




Why all of a sudden put a 2 year qualifier on it. They've decided to try and retain their top guys and they've brought in plenty of players in the past couple seasons. Some worked out and some didn't, but they've shown ambition.


----------



## Baxterman

Havre said:


> I love that some would consider Spurs borderline on level with Arsenal, but it isnÃ‚Â´t true. With the new stadium and training facilities it is closer than ever, but even with the mess at Arsenal at the moment it is still the bigger job. Maybe Spurs can even things out over the next years, but not there yet.
> 
> Monaco isnÃ‚Â´t even close to Arsenal in terms of size, reputation and attractiveness for a manager.




I would put Spurs a step below Arsenal in the big picture but right now I don't see how there is any argument about which club is in the better spot short term. 

As mentioned I think Arsenal can quickly change that and get back to what they have traditionally been but right now they are not at that level and I don't see any reason why we should pretend any different.


----------



## YNWA14

Baxterman said:


> In the last 10 years Tottenham have finished lower than Liverpool twice and yet it is Tottenham that is definitely the weak link. Pochettino was only here for the last 3 of those years. They still twice finished top 4 prior to him coming in. He has definitely taken them up a level but I think it is a pretty big step to say they are very reliant on him. Plus with the new stadium coming that will be a big boost as well.




Huh? I think you should fact check that. They finished lower than Liverpool in 06/07, 07/08, 08/09, 13/14 and were only 2 points ahead in 14/15? How many trophies have they won in that time? European performance? And, more realistically, look at the difference in money and prestige of the two clubs.

Not that I think they're overly reliant on him which is why I said that they'd be able to get another top manager and have a strong base.



> A. I would say Klopp is wildly overrated so feel free to keep him




Thanks, we will. Maybe Spurs will figure out how to deal with his teams at some point.



> B. We have never in the history of sports heard a coach/athlete talk about how much they love team/city/club X and then leave that supposed dream job.




Never.



Live in the Now said:


> Coutinho to score the winner Saturday. Nailed on.




Imagine. Though it sounds like Klopp might not put him right into the team.


----------



## Baxterman

bleedblue1223 said:


> Why all of a sudden put a 2 year qualifier on it. They've decided to try and retain their top guys and they've brought in plenty of players in the past couple seasons. Some worked out and some didn't, but they've shown ambition.




Because I am talking the short term. 

We could extend it longer as I think there have been questions about Arsenal and Wenger for longer than that. I used two years because I think those are clearly two windows where they were a lot of questions about Arsenal and what they were doing.


----------



## Chimaera

There's no telling which club is the weak link. 

Right now, I think Liverpool are setup to be better and continue to improve over the next 5 years or so. But that could change dramatically with certain players getting hurt or changes of fortune. I don't think they're setup to experience the same sort of decline that losing Kane/Alli might bring. Liverpool have some excellent players, and I think losing Mane would be the hardest to cope with, but they have 4-5 players who are pretty good, not one or two who their club is built around.


----------



## Live in the Now

Curtinho said:


> Imagine. Though it sounds like Klopp might not put him right into the team.




I think he'll be on the bench. Oxlade-Chamberlain, Sturridge, Coutinho, and Solanke all as bench options. 

Would play the same team as the Arsenal match with the exception of TAA in for Gomez, but Firmino, Mane, and Salah have all taken long trips around the world so who knows.


----------



## Baxterman

Curtinho said:


> Huh? I think you should fact check that. They finished lower than Liverpool in 06/07, 07/08, 08/09, 13/14 and were only 2 points ahead in 14/15? How many trophies have they won in that time? European performance? And, more realistically, look at the difference in money and prestige of the two clubs.




06/07 is 11 seasons ago and you are right I missed 07/08 so it is 3 times. 

As for European performance and Trophies in that time I am not sure either has much to brag about but at a quick glance it looks like they each won a League Cup (whoopee) and Tottenham have played more in Europe than Liverpool. BUt again not sure either one has much to brag about in this area.

The prestige is awesome and all but until I see how that translate to wins on the pitch I am not sure I care all that much about it. This isn't the 70's and the 80's anymore. I don't think Man City or Leicester cares all that much about how much less prestige they have than other clubs when they won the title.




> Thanks, we will. Maybe Spurs will figure out how to deal with his teams at some point.




It is a contest of Liverpool vs. Spurs so I don't really care if they lose every game 100-0 to Liverpool as long as they keep finishing above them.


----------



## Baxterman

Chimaera said:


> There's no telling which club is the weak link.
> 
> Right now, I think Liverpool are setup to be better and continue to improve over the next 5 years or so. But that could change dramatically with certain players getting hurt or changes of fortune. I don't think they're setup to experience the same sort of decline that losing Kane/Alli might bring. Liverpool have some excellent players, and I think losing Mane would be the hardest to cope with, but they have 4-5 players who are pretty good, not one or two who their club is built around.




I may be misreading this but are you implying that Spurs are built around only Alli/Kane?


----------



## bleedblue1223

Baxterman said:


> Because I am talking the short term.
> 
> We could extend it longer as I think there have been questions about Arsenal and Wenger for longer than that. I used two years because I think those are clearly two windows where they were a lot of questions about Arsenal and what they were doing.




Your post didn't indicate short-term, that's why I asked. 

Lacazette was a great get. Xhaka was one that showed ambition, but he just hasn't worked out as well as thought.


----------



## phisherman

Baxterman said:


> 06/07 is 11 seasons ago and you are right I missed 07/08 so it is 3 times.
> 
> As for European performance and Trophies in that time I am not sure either has much to brag about but at a quick glance it looks like they each won a League Cup (whoopee) and Tottenham have played more in Europe than Liverpool. BUt again not sure either one has much to brag about in this area.
> 
> The prestige is awesome and all but until I see how that translate to wins on the pitch I am not sure I care all that much about it. This isn't the 70's and the 80's anymore. I don't think Man City or Leicester cares all that much about how much less prestige they have than other clubs when they won the title.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a contest of Liverpool vs. Spurs so I don't really care if they lose every game 100-0 to Liverpool as long as they keep finishing above them.




5 past CL trophies and moral victories>actual recent results obviously.


----------



## Baxterman

bleedblue1223 said:


> Your post didn't indicate short-term, that's why I asked.
> 
> Lacazette was a great get. Xhaka was one that showed ambition, but he just hasn't worked out as well as thought.




Sorry must have been a case of me knowing what I meant and so when I read what I wrote it was clearly there.

I am not arguing that Arsenal are crap and in for a long losing period I am just saying that I think there are questions about the ownership and their desire to be more than top 4 and QF Champions league. 

Yes there have been some moves but I think it was clear to pretty mucsh everyone that Wengers time was up. I think that it was also clear that guys like Sanchez and Ozil likely should have been moved as the team needed a change. 

I feel Arsenal needs a "kick in the pants" or "injection of new blood" to use terrible cliches and it seems from the outside that the owners are fine sticking with status quo because they can get make a profit.


----------



## Evilo

Havre said:


> Monaco isnÃ‚Â´t even close to Arsenal in terms of size, reputation and attractiveness for a manager.




I agree, but I want to stress Monaco is very particular. Not sure Jardim would leave to Arsenal for instance.
First, it has amazing situation. Living there is paradise really. Second, no taxes. Third, not a lot of pressure on the manager. Fourth, you have every right to develop youngsters as you wish, which is clearly something some managers love to do. Fifth, you're still on a very rich team that can contend once in a while.

That said, not much of an assistance, the project is clearly to buy and sell, etc... all of those can be tiring for a manager.


----------



## Chimaera

Baxterman said:


> I may be misreading this but are you implying that Spurs are built around only Alli/Kane?




I think they're the best players on that side, who if they were to depart, make a more significant impact on Spurs than Liverpool losing say, Coutinho or someone else. 

They have plenty of other good players, but they're the most likely to one day end up playing for someone better (obviously, Eriksen is in that discussion).


----------



## Savant

I think Eriksen is Spurs best player. That's the one that Barca should have gone after instead of Coutinho.


----------



## Baxterman

Chimaera said:


> I think they're the best players on that side, who if they were to depart, make a more significant impact on Spurs than Liverpool losing say, Coutinho or someone else.
> 
> They have plenty of other good players, but they're the most likely to one day end up playing for someone better (obviously, Eriksen is in that discussion).




I would rank the players (in terms of importance):

1. Kane
2. Eriksen
3. Alderweireld
4. Alli

I think talentwise Alli is right there with Kane and Eriksen but (perhaps because I see him the most likely to leave) I think in terms of importance he is below the others because of their roles on the team. 

Of course losing any of those and not replacing them would be brutal but if they lost any of them they would have tons of cash to replace them. Also I would say that when they lost Bale the team was much more reliant on him than any of the guys listed above.

Plus if they lost the two mentioned they still have Rose, Vertongen, Aurier, Alderweireld, Dier, Eriksen which is a pretty good core to add pieces to.

I can't see how Tottenham is built around 2 guys at all. Also I don't think Liverpool would be any better off losing Coutinho and Mane than Spurs would be losing Kane/Alli.


----------



## S E P H

Son isn't Spurs best player, but I believe he's their most creative midfield and around the box player. He isn't very good in the box though. Alli is the opposite, as he gets better as he gets closer to the goalkeeper. 



KJS14 said:


> Good, we'd rather keep one of the best 10s in the world. Now if only we'd get rid of the 3-4-3 and play him properly like Germany does.



How is he one of the "best" 10's in the world when he can only play one type of position, in a very limited amount of formations, and in a very specific game type?

Maybe it's subjective since 10, 9, and 6 for example are a position on the pitch. However, for me, if a player is TRULY talented and one of the best in the world, he can play multiple positions and not only survive, but succeed. This is true for the top players in football in the like of Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar, and others. Hell Henry, played as a #9, a #10, and a #11.


----------



## bleedblue1223

S E P H said:


> Son isn't Spurs best player, but I believe he's their most creative midfield and around the box player. He isn't very good in the box though. Alli is the opposite, as he gets better as he gets closer to the goalkeeper.
> 
> 
> How is he one of the "best" 10's in the world when he can only play one type of position, in a very limited amount of formations, and in a very specific game type?
> 
> Maybe it's subjective since 10, 9, and 6 for example are a position on the pitch. However, for me, if a player is TRULY talented and one of the best in the world, he can play multiple positions and not only survive, but succeed. This is true for the top players in football in the like of Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar, and others. Hell Henry, played as a #9, a #10, and a #11.




Because he excels in the #10 role, that's why he's one of the "best" 10's in the world. How he plays in another position and role doesn't affect his ability as a #10.


----------



## YNWA14

Savant said:


> I think Eriksen is Spurs best player. That's the one that Barca should have gone after instead of Coutinho.




Agreed. He's also better than Coutinho. Eriksen is a gem and it's too bad that we didn't get him.


----------



## S E P H

bleedblue1223 said:


> Because he excels in the #10 role, that's why he's one of the "best" 10's in the world. How he plays in another position and role doesn't affect his ability as a #10.




I get that since I brought around the word "subjective" in my post, but I suggest that he isn't that talented to begin with. Maybe he excels at the #10 role which I am not doubting, but he's so limited everywhere else that he's the opposite of a suisse army knife. And if you want to win a survival quest in the wild (aka winning the EPL title with CL football schedule), you bring the suisse army knife instead of the knitting tool every 10 out of 10 times.

Maybe I am stating that Ozil was a bad buy and something Arsenal never really needed to begin with, instead of the player's strengths and weaknesses.


----------



## bluesfan94

Baxterman said:


> You think they have the past two seasons?
> 
> You would say that Arsenal is as stable as those two clubs and have been as impressive in the transfer market and with over all decision making as those two?
> 
> So then all the fan and media talk is just crap?




In terms of "ambition," yes. Arsenal has brought in big name players like Ozil, Sanchez, Lacazette and to a lesser extent, Mustafi, Xhaka, Kolasinac. I would say Tottenham and Liverpool haven't signed names that big, even if they are better players. 

As impressive is a different question than as ambitious.


----------



## S E P H

bluesfan94 said:


> In terms of "ambition," yes. Arsenal has brought in big name players like Ozil, Sanchez, Lacazette and to a lesser extent, Mustafi, Xhaka, Kolasinac. I would say Tottenham and Liverpool haven't signed names that big, even if they are better players.
> 
> As impressive is a different question than as ambitious.




Don't forget that Sanchez chose Arsenal over Liverpool, such as Suarez wanting a move to Arsenal from Liverpool. Of course cities were probably a big part of the decision, but Arsenal is just a "bigger club" in regards to aura and attraction to players, this is even with the Kroenke and Wenger viruses causing Fourthplacitis instead of a Wengerectomy. Man, my analogies are on fire today.


----------



## Baxterman

bluesfan94 said:


> In terms of "ambition," yes. Arsenal has brought in big name players like Ozil, Sanchez, Lacazette and to a lesser extent, Mustafi, Xhaka, Kolasinac. I would say Tottenham and Liverpool haven't signed names that big, even if they are better players.
> 
> As impressive is a different question than as ambitious.




Fair enough ambitious may have been a bad choice of words.

I guess I was thinking that in recent years Tottenham and Liverpool have made moves to bring them from 5/6 (or lower) to competitive for top 4 spots while it seems that Arsenal has been happy staying in top 4/QF CL instead of improving to be a EPL/CL winner. So while you are correct that Arsenal is bringing in top level (perhaps higher level than the other two) when I look at where the teams have come from recently it seems Liverpool and Tottenham are doing more to improve their squads.

Now it appears you are arguing that it is more of guys not performing to their ability than Arsenal not being ambitious in getting better.


----------



## bleedblue1223

S E P H said:


> I get that since I brought around the word "subjective" in my post, but I suggest that he isn't that talented to begin with. Maybe he excels at the #10 role which I am not doubting, but he's so limited everywhere else that he's the opposite of a suisse army knife. And if you want to win a survival quest in the wild (aka winning the EPL title with CL football schedule), you bring the suisse army knife instead of the knitting tool every 10 out of 10 times.
> 
> Maybe I am stating that Ozil was a bad buy and something Arsenal never really needed to begin with, instead of the player's strengths and weaknesses.




He's immensely talented in a specific role. So, yes, he's one of the best #10, but he's not versatile, so any manager with a brain would play a system suited to his strengths.


----------



## Savant

Curtinho said:


> Agreed. He's also better than Coutinho. Eriksen is a gem and it's too bad that we didn't get him.




Eriksen said he was too good for Liverpool, and would only leave for Madrid, Barca, Bayern; and then the next summer signed for Tottenham.


----------



## Deficient Mode

S E P H said:


> I get that since I brought around the word "subjective" in my post, but I suggest that he isn't that talented to begin with.




He is actually. He is one of the best creative players in the world, and creativity is one of the most important attributes in a sport where so few goals are scored. 

In his four seasons at Arsenal, they have 236 points in the 116 matches he has played (2.03 points per match) and 64 in the 36 matches where he didn't play (1.78 points per match). Pretty significant difference there. Without Alexis on the other hand, they had 2.09 points per match and with him they had 1.92 points per match. Funny that you'd call Ã–zil an unnecessary or luxury signing. Laying the blame in the wrong place.


----------



## Venkman

Now that the transfer window is closed, here is my prediction:

Man Utd
Man City
Chelsea
Liverpool
Tottenham
Arsenal
Everton
Leicester
West Brom
Southampton
Stoke 
Watford
Crystal Palace
West Ham
Newcastle
Swansea
Burnley
Bournemouth
Huddersfield
Brighton


----------



## YNWA14

There'd probably need to be a much longer look at that kind of data (who they were playing, who the other players were on the field, etc.). You can't draw any kind of conclusion simply by saying that.

Ozil is a flat track bully, which is definitely useful if you want to beat weaker teams but he has a pretty bad reputation for his play in 'big' games.

He is a luxury player in that he's not going to carry a team to anything, and he needs a team full of players better than him and the right tactics to function at his best.


----------



## Live in the Now

Man City
Liverpool
Man United
Chelsea
Tottenham
Arsenal
Everton
West Brom
Watford
Leicester
Southampton
Stoke
Bournemouth
West Ham
Burnley
Newcastle
Swansea
Huddersfield
Crystal Palace
Brighton


----------



## YNWA14

Man City
Liverpool
Man United
Chelsea
Tottenham
Everton
Arsenal

I'm not going to try and sort out the mid/lower table but this is how I see things.

Also for this weekend I hope they keep Gomez over TAA. I think his defensive nature will be needed more, and he can burst forward when needed too. He's very atheltic and strong. I would use Gomez against the top teams for now and TAA against the mid/low table teams.


----------



## Baxterman

City
United
Tottenham
Chelsea
Liverpool
Everton
Arsenal
Southhampton
Leicester
West Brom
Stoke
Watford
Bournemouth
Burnley
Newcastle
West Ham
Palace

Huddersfield
Swansea
Brighton


----------



## Live in the Now

Kompany hurt again. Calf problem this time.


----------



## Havre

Baxterman said:


> I would put Spurs a step below Arsenal in the big picture but right now I don't see how there is any argument about which club is in the better spot short term.
> 
> As mentioned I think Arsenal can quickly change that and get back to what they have traditionally been but right now they are not at that level and I don't see any reason why we should pretend any different.




Short term is very short term in football.

I remember Monaco from 15/16. Very average team. Monaco from 16/17 was quite a lot better than average.

Not that teams usually improves as much as Monaco did, but it shows it is possible.

With some belief what are currently average players could all of a sudden become good or very good again. If a Payet or Mane pops up you are right back in the top 4 race at least. The next step to become a proper CL contender is obviously more difficult, but still...


----------



## Jeffrey

Havre said:


> Short term is very short term in football.
> 
> I remember Monaco from 15/16. Very average team. Monaco from 16/17 was quite a lot better than average.
> 
> Not that teams usually improves as much as Monaco did, but it shows it is possible.
> 
> With some belief what are currently average players could all of a sudden become good or very good again. If a Payet or Mane pops up you are right back in the top 4 race at least. The next step to become a proper CL contender is obviously more difficult, but still...




I don't want to be mean but there are huge differences between ligue 1 and EPL. 

Ligue 1 outside PSG is a development league where the best players rarely remain very long with their teams. It is also less competitive from top to bottom and required less significant investment.

That being said Monaco did amazingly well on getting top level players with potential for little money spent: Martial, Lemar, Fabinho, Silva, Mendy, Sidibe, Bakayoko.

Not to mention a prodigy in their academy with Mbappe.


----------



## Stray Wasp

phisherman said:


> If Liverpool can attract a top quality manager then chances are Arsenal can attract them as well.




If we look at Klopp's arrival in isolation, what you say is indisputably fair comment. 

But when we cast the net wider- back to 2010, the season Liverpool's run of consecutive campaigns in the Champions League was disrupted- the list of managerial appointments makes less reassuring reading: Hodgson, Dalglish, Rodgers, Klopp. 

One top-class manager out of four, by my count. Why, things reached such a dismal pass they were even obliged to employ an _Englishman_.

(By the bye, that Klopp's successor will prove to be a coach with an elite reputation is far from certain). 

Now, there are enough differences between the EPL landscape in 2010 and the present day that we can't make simplistic analogies to Arsenal's case. But the five-year gap between Benitez leaving and Klopp arriving shows how difficult it can be for a club that slips out of the top four to persuade a top manager they're a worthy project. 

Something that intrigues me is the question of whether the perceived soft culture at Arsenal would strike potential replacements for Wenger as a challenge they might easily overcome or a ten tonne weight that makes the job best avoided.


----------



## Stray Wasp

TopKex said:


> All I know is that they wanted to sell Drinkwater first.




It's always courting disaster to wait on what other clubs give you before you set out after what you need yourself.

Financial difficulties might mitigate such an approach. In Leicester's case, that didn't apply.


----------



## hatterson

Live in the Now said:


> Kompany hurt again. Calf problem this time.




If it ends up being long term, I might demote them from the top of my prediction list. Kompany covers a lot of mental error by their other guys when he's on the pitch.


----------



## hatterson

hatterson said:


> City, United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Aresenal, Spurs




Assuming no big injuries (like if Kompany misses time from the above mentioned injury) I'll stick with this with the exception of flopping Arsenal and Spurs.


----------



## Savant

Joyce says Mignolet will get the LFC league games and Karius will get the CL game; or at least that is the plan.


----------



## Blender

hatterson said:


> If it ends up being long term, I might demote them from the top of my prediction list. Kompany covers a lot of mental error by their other guys when he's on the pitch.




Yea they end up relying on guys like Otamendi a lot more without Kompany there, and he just isn't very good at covering players in the box.


----------



## Chimaera

S E P H said:


> Don't forget that Sanchez chose Arsenal over Liverpool, such as Suarez wanting a move to Arsenal from Liverpool. Of course cities were probably a big part of the decision, but Arsenal is just a "bigger club" in regards to aura and attraction to players, this is even with the Kroenke and Wenger viruses causing Fourthplacitis instead of a Wengerectomy. Man, my analogies are on fire today.




Arsenal is not a bigger club in anyway. 

Sanchez came because London is decent and Liverpool is about as nice as Pittsburgh. Both underrated, but a dude from Chile isn't going to enjoy it.

At this point, Klopp is a bigger draw than Wenger or anyone who replaces it seems. Heck Klopp is pulling over Chelsea and City.


----------



## S E P H

Deficient Mode said:


> He is actually. He is one of the best creative players in the world, and creativity is one of the most important attributes in a sport where so few goals are scored.
> 
> In his four seasons at Arsenal, they have 236 points in the 116 matches he has played (2.03 points per match) and 64 in the 36 matches where he didn't play (1.78 points per match). Pretty significant difference there. Without Alexis on the other hand, they had 2.09 points per match and with him they had 1.92 points per match. Funny that you'd call Ã–zil an unnecessary or luxury signing. Laying the blame in the wrong place.



All those numbers matter if the eye test leads to inconclusive data, which for me it doesn't. Not only that, but I would sway my opinion if those numbers were pinpoints of certain data only against the top half clubs of the league (maybe you can, I don't know). For example, I remember one game two years ago where Ozil had three assists. 3 assists against a club like Aston Villa where all of them were wonderfully placed free kicks. Those three perhaps boosted his stats for that season where he could have done nothing else for the next month of games, it's hard to say. 

Trust me, I might bash him quite a bit, but I will honestly say that I don't want to. I would much rather keep both Sanchez and Ozil and have EPL titles and legitimate CL runs with both of them leading this club as the top players. I would prefer not to sell either of them, I want them to succeed, but Ozil just doesn't have the characteristics I personally want players at Arsenal to have. They're not ones which help win trophies. By all means if I was head of Arsenal and you with BVB I would sell him to you for not even fee, but for a trade for Dahoud (which is a win for Dortmund). I'm going through the same situation with the Avs where all our top players are wanting a move out of the team. I would've absolutely loved to win the Cup with Duchene, O'Reilly, and Roy as our coach, but sometimes you just have the wrong formula which needs a change. I want players who want to compete, want to succeed, and understand that being in the situation they're in should have a lot of meaning considering 90% of the planet would kill for that. That's something I think Ozil/ex-Avs players take for granted.



bleedblue1223 said:


> He's immensely talented in a specific role. So, yes, he's one of the best #10, but he's not versatile, so any manager with a brain would play a system suited to his strengths.



That's where we're probably continue to disagree, no player who needs to play a very specific role should be classified as "immensely talented". I am not denying that he's quite good at strictly being a CAM that has zero need to track back, but that makes him more of a knitting tool instead of a versatile army knife who would succeed in multiple positions. As Courtinho perfectly said, he's a luxury player instead of a core piece.


----------



## Baxterman

Chimaera said:


> At this point, Klopp is a bigger draw than Wenger or anyone who replaces it seems. Heck Klopp is pulling over Chelsea and City.




He is?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Ã–zil is clearly still a better and more important player than Dahoud. Unfortunately Dortmund has a problem with too many attackers and not enough good CMs as well.

If Ã–zil missed 36 matches over those 4 years, it's highly unlikely that they all fell against good opponents. That's a fairly sizeable sample. There were definitely some tough matches sprinkled in like 2x Liverpool last season, but plenty of inferior opponents too. Ã–zil is one of the top players in the world in on/off goal differential metrics, too, as I understand. The eye test overvalues aspects like body language, which always comes up when people talk about Ã–zil, but which is ultimately meaningless.

By my calculations,

1 goal, 2 assists in 5 matches (0.6 per) vs final table top 6 in 2013/14. 4 goals, 8 assists in 21 other matches (0.57 per) vs non-top 6.

2 goals in 7 matches (0.29 per) vs top 6 in 2014/15. 2 goals, 6 assists in 15 other matches (.053 per).

2 goals, 7 assists in 9 matches (1.0 per) vs other top 6 clubs in 2015/16. 4 goals, 12 assists in 26 other matches (0.62 per).

1 goal, 2 assists in 7 matches (0.43 per) vs. other top 6 clubs in 2016/17. 7 goals, 8 assists in 26 other matches (0.58 per).

17 scoring acts in 28 top 6 matches. 0.61 goals+assists per appearance vs. top 6 club. 51 scoring acts in 88 non-top 6 matches. 0.58 goals+assists per appearance vs. non-top 6 club. So he scored a fraction more vs top opponents, when you'd expect him to score less given that those teams concede far less than others. IDK. Nothing in these stats says that Arsenal do better without him OR that he performs significantly worse vs. good opponents.


----------



## phisherman

Chimaera said:


> Arsenal is not a bigger club in anyway.
> 
> Sanchez came because London is decent and Liverpool is about as nice as Pittsburgh. Both underrated, but a dude from Chile isn't going to enjoy it.
> 
> At this point, Klopp is a bigger draw than Wenger or anyone who replaces it seems. Heck Klopp is pulling over Chelsea and City.




I see the delusion is spreading to even the more decent Liverpool supporters.


----------



## Havre

Jeffrey said:


> I don't want to be mean but there are huge differences between ligue 1 and EPL.
> 
> Ligue 1 outside PSG is a development league where the best players rarely remain very long with their teams. It is also less competitive from top to bottom and required less significant investment.
> 
> That being said Monaco did amazingly well on getting top level players with potential for little money spent: Martial, Lemar, Fabinho, Silva, Mendy, Sidibe, Bakayoko.
> 
> Not to mention a prodigy in their academy with Mbappe.




Well. They did play in Europe as well.

Take Liverpool then. How many years did they end up in 6th and 7th before that one year in 2nd when Suarez and Sturridge just "clicked"? The rest of that team wasnÂ´t anything special at all. Actually quite comparable to this yearÂ´s Arsenal that might very well end up 6-7th.


----------



## Live in the Now

The key component to Liverpool that year was that they never had an injury crisis.

Not having injury crisis is what decides competitive leagues IMO. Only one or two teams won't have them, and those will probably be the top two teams at the end of this season. 

I did pick City to win the league, but if Kompany's out again and he will be for more games as well, it's almost an injury crisis on his own.


----------



## Evilo

Hey, Pittsburgh's much nice than Liverpool.


----------



## Havre

Live in the Now said:


> The key component to Liverpool that year was that they never had an injury crisis.
> 
> Not having injury crisis is what decides competitive leagues IMO. Only one or two teams won't have them, and those will probably be the top two teams at the end of this season.
> 
> I did pick City to win the league, but if Kompany's out again and he will be for more games as well, it's almost an injury crisis on his own.




Clearly there is more to it, but injuries don't explain 7 - 6 - 8 - 7 - *2* - 6- 8

Injuries don't explain Suarez scoring 11 - 23 - 31 goals in 31, 33 and 33 matches either.

I don't really see which Arsenal player that will take that step Suarez did, Bale did etc., but if they had bought Mbappe earlier who knows....

Liverpool was just one example. Teams change quicker than people think in my opinion. And it is far less separating them than people also think - especially in the league where many teams can be successful if they beat the bottom 10-12 teams.

Spurs have had several melt downs over the last decade. At the end of Jol, Ramos and too some extent AVB the team was complete lost. Arsenal kind of reminds me of Spurs under AVB at the end. Just no energy. No drive. I have seen how quickly it goes sour and also have quickly things can turn. The same 11 players playing with energy and a smile on their faces just weeks after games like the one Arsenal had against Pool.


----------



## Peen

Liverpool over Chelsea is very questionable considering you still have the same centerback situation 

Chelsea have clearly improved defensively with the signing of anyone but Moses (zappacosta) and Rudiger is miles better than Cahill in the games he's played.

I went along with the consensus board judgement of rudiger when we signed him because I'd never seen him play, but he's obviously better than Cahill.

Not a big fan of Morata to be perfectly honest but he is a monster in the air that's for sure. Really though, that's the only position we got worse in. 

Matic and Chalobah for Bakayoko and Drinkwater is at worst a lateral move. Drinkwater Kante partnership was insane.

This seems like a team more built for Contes liking.. 

Barring injury I just dont see us losing many games to teams outside the top four or many at home either.

Just dont see the manchester clubs as the clear top two. I think Chelsea is right in there because of how good of a coach conte is, and the team is moreso built for his liking.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

...since the transfer thread is closed

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...h-tottenham-for-vincent-janssen-a3629821.html

Vincent Janssen set to leave Tottenham on loan as Fenerbahce announce agreement


----------



## Prntscrn

Lots of talk going on that Karius will be Klopps choice in the Champions League. If Klopp still believes Karius can be a #1 keeper it makes sense since he needs time on the pitch. And I do think Premier League should be the number one priority so Mignolet is the clear choice there. But I would prefer Mignolet starting both PL and CL and let Karius/Ward do the rest


----------



## Chimaera

Evilo said:


> Hey, Pittsburgh's much nice than Liverpool.




Haha. I wouldn't say so as a Caps fan. 

Liverpool has it's pluses, but it's a bit gritty.


----------



## Chimaera

Baxterman said:


> He is?




Both VVD and AOC picked Liverpool over Chelsea and other clubs because of Klopp from most accounts. While Liverpool couldn't go in for VVD because they might get a transfer ban, it was probably the meeting with the manager that sold it. Oxlade-Chamberlain took less money from both Arsenal and Chelsea to go to Liverpool (though admittedly, not being seen as a RWB might have helped). But in his comments, he said it was Klopp.


----------



## Prntscrn

No Coutinho in the squad for tomorrow


----------



## Baxterman

Chimaera said:


> Both VVD and AOC picked Liverpool over Chelsea and other clubs because of Klopp from most accounts. While Liverpool couldn't go in for VVD because they might get a transfer ban, it was probably the meeting with the manager that sold it. Oxlade-Chamberlain took less money from both Arsenal and Chelsea to go to Liverpool (though admittedly, not being seen as a RWB might have helped). But in his comments, he said it was Klopp.




I thought AOC was based on position a lot more than Klopp but I can see why he would say Klopp as that sounds a lot better than him trying to dictate where he plays.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Chimaera said:


> Heck Klopp is pulling over Chelsea and City.




This is a new level of delusion.


----------



## Havre

Chimaera said:


> Both VVD and AOC picked Liverpool over Chelsea and other clubs because of Klopp from most accounts. While Liverpool couldn't go in for VVD because they might get a transfer ban, it was probably the meeting with the manager that sold it. Oxlade-Chamberlain took less money from both Arsenal and Chelsea to go to Liverpool (though admittedly, not being seen as a RWB might have helped).* But in his comments, he said it was Klopp*.




I have never heard a player say after signing for a new team; "I hope this works out because I'm not sure if the manager is any good."

Typical confirmation bias. How about all the players that picked other teams due to their manager?

I do believe Klopp has an appeal among players. He is enthusiastic, he usually defends his players and he seems to be able to build up their confidence, but let's not think it is a bigger deal than it is.


----------



## YNWA14

Baxterman said:


> I thought AOC was based on position a lot more than Klopp but I can see why he would say Klopp as that sounds a lot better than him trying to dictate where he plays.




Klopp has already said he's getting him for his versatility and he'll play him in multiple positions. Chambo has also said he's not bothered by where he'll play he's just excited to play under Klopp.

Usually players will say the right things, but media will also say things that aren't true. So you're taking his word vs. tabloid word. Take your pick. He played really well as a wingback for Arsenal, fwiw, it's not like he was throwing a tantrum.

Anyway Klopp has said he wants to have Ox on the pitch as much as possible. Sounds like he really likes him; says he'll use him in both 8s and both wings.

But yeah...when van Dijk and Ox are choosing Liverpool over other big teams you know that there's drawing power. But people hated on Liverpool even when they were in that down period do you think that's going to change now that they're looking on the up again?


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

spintheblackcircle said:


> ...since the transfer thread is closed
> 
> https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/fo...h-tottenham-for-vincent-janssen-a3629821.html
> 
> Vincent Janssen set to leave Tottenham on loan as Fenerbahce announce agreement




Really thought he screwed up when he denied Brighton, so this pleases me. I wonder if Fener will run a Janssen/Soldado duo.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

TopKex said:


> Really thought he screwed up when he denied Brighton, so this pleases me. I wonder if Fener will run a Janssen/Soldado duo.




He looks so ****ing happy. Looks like a ransom photo.


----------



## Savant

spintheblackcircle said:


> He looks so ****ing happy. Looks like a ransom photo.




When Aaron Lennon signed for Everton was the best. They made him retake the photo!


----------



## Ajacied

Janssen is really awful. I am ashamed he is the starting striker for Oranje, but that's how bad the current generation is. He wouldn't ever have sniffed the selection if he was born 5-10 years earlier. 

He won't cut it in Turkey and likely end up joining an Eredivisie side such as Feyenoord. That's his absolute ceiling.

Not that I am a fan of most Oranje players right now, though. Save a few.


----------



## Hadoop

Still early days but it's looking like the top of the table will look like this at season's end:

1 Man City
2 Man United
3 Chelsea
4 Tottenham
5 Liverpool
6 Arsenal


----------



## chasespace

I do wonder if yesterday was Arsenal turning a corner or just a bump on the gradual decline they've been fighting.


----------



## Cassano

chasespace said:


> I do wonder if yesterday was Arsenal turning a corner or just a bump on the gradual decline they've been fighting.




The game didn't really tell much except that Bournemouth are awful.


----------



## Savant

DrRecchi said:


> The game didn't really tell much except that Bournemouth are awful.




Bournemouth are only good at home. They are useless on the road.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## YNWA14

spintheblackcircle said:


>





Not surprising. He is clueless. Good on Palace to make the decision early.


----------



## Theon

Ridiculous. Why hire him in the first place then if you're only gonna give him 4 games.

His replacement is even more laughable.


----------



## YNWA14

Yeah hiring him in the first place was their first mistake. At least they're going about rectifying it quickly.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Theon said:


> Ridiculous. Why hire him in the first place then if you're only gonna give him 4 games.
> 
> His replacement is even more laughable.




Who's the replacement?


----------



## hatterson

Curtinho said:


> Not surprising. He is clueless. Good on Palace to make the decision early.




Says far more about those making the decision to hire him in the first place than it does about him.


----------



## Chimaera

I mean, he will keep them up. He's a dinosaur, but he's good enough for 10th.


----------



## Baxterman

It was a really poorly executed plan to have a team built one way and then bring in a coach that runs a completely different style and then not change barely any of the players.

To then fire the coach 4 games into the season makes even less sense.

I remember watching a video of the Palace CEO or President talking about bringing DeBoer in and it was interesting to see the approach. I admired his ambition to do more than just play boring football and eke out 12-15th places just aiming to stay up and do nothing else really, but now we see the reality is that comes with the risk of dropping down and despite all the talk of being more than that money talks and it is easier and safer to bring in Woy and do their best to grind out 16th place.

It sucks for the fans and I think points to a problem in the EPL but looking at the overall picture and money hard to totally blame Palace for making the switch now.


----------



## Live in the Now

I hope so much that Hodgson gets relegated. Somebody please let me see that and I will be happy with this sport for the rest of my life.


----------



## Savant

Hodgson has the unique ability of making bad players average. Unfortunately he also makes good players average.


----------



## S E P H

Alan Pardew showing he's a bit better than the people give him credit for on this site...


----------



## Savant

I mean you can't take a team that is designed to play hoof ball and get them playing like de boer wanted them to. You can't put a Ferrari engine into a Honda Civic


----------



## hatterson

Baxterman said:


> It was a really poorly executed plan to have a team built one way and then bring in a coach that runs a completely different style and then not change barely any of the players.
> 
> To then fire the coach 4 games into the season makes even less sense.
> 
> I remember watching a video of the Palace CEO or President talking about bringing DeBoer in and it was interesting to see the approach. I admired his ambition to do more than just play boring football and eke out 12-15th places just aiming to stay up and do nothing else really, but now we see the reality is that comes with the risk of dropping down and despite all the talk of being more than that money talks and it is easier and safer to bring in Woy and do their best to grind out 16th place.
> 
> It sucks for the fans and I think points to a problem in the EPL but looking at the overall picture and money hard to totally blame Palace for making the switch now.




You can definitely build into something better than a perennial relegation battle, but you can't expect it to happen over night. You have to gradually transition from the style they were playing into a prettier style.

They also weren't some stacked team that came up from the Championship. They had never finished above 5th and the 4 years before their promotion were 15th, 21st, 20th, and 17th, then they finished 5th and won promotion via the playoffs.


----------



## Stray Wasp

Savant said:


> I mean you can't take a team that is designed to play hoof ball and get them playing like de boer wanted them to. You can't put a Ferrari engine into a Honda Civic




Indeed. If you want to replace Sam Allardyce with someone who preaches playing genuine football, give the new chap money or you're doomed.

It was fun watching Bilic embarrass the 'be careful what you wish for'- parroting cretin pundits in 2015/16, but it wouldn't have happened had he been denied the chance to bring in Payet and Lanzini.


----------



## Stray Wasp

S E P H said:


> Alan Pardew showing he's a bit better than the people give him credit for on this site...




Well, Alan Pardew isn't managing anybody at the minute. And don't we all agree that's the role that suits him best?

But lest we forget:

Palace was going to be the club where Alan Pardew finally encountered a fanbase who appreciated his abilities as a top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top, top
manager. (I plead you forgive my typically English understatement).

Palace was going to be the club where Alan Pardew thrived because he had a chairman who backed him, permitting him to sign the players he rated rather than foisting horrible forrins on him, like wot Noocarsel done. 

Palace definitely wasn't going to be another club where Alan Pardew was good for a short period of time, then spectacularly lost his way at roughly the point that most bang-average managers run out of good ideas.

And yet, Alan Pardew was sacked with sixteen points from seventeen games. I suppose in comparison to De Boer it's mighty stuff, but a tad underwhelming for a man whose hour of vindication was meant to be at hand.

I'd be tempted to say that Pardew should have been careful what he wished for, but that's a phrase you should only ever use when managers who encourage creative football are fired. And Alan Pardew was never one of them.


----------



## Stray Wasp

When undertaking my habitual 'Find three worse teams than NUFC' survey, I gave Palace careful thought. Whilst I did expect De Boer to struggle, I presumed Benteke's goals would end up serving as a get-out-of-jail free card for his successor. 

But I'm quietly optimistic about Hodgson. Yes, he's proven himself a good manager of average teams, but he's approaching seventy now, and it's half a decade since he swapped the relentless rhythms of club football for the sporadic demands of the international game. The EPL has evolved in that time, and for all Hodgson will have watched plenty games, how much will have slipped past his eternally inattentive eyes?

Only a few days back I read Hodgson's foreword to Rory Smith's very enjoyable book, 'Mister.' His unlikely vanity remains pleasingly intact. While at my age I should know better than to be too carried away, I nurture hopes of a final assault on the EPL that plumbs Wilkinsonesque depths.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Erik Palmer-Brown looks to complete a move to City. I'll never understand why the promising US players that aren't Pulisic level talent will go to clubs that they likely have 0 chance of having any meaningful playing time at and clubs that don't have a great track record at developing the non-superstar talents. 

EPB going to City is like Miazga going to Chelsea, they are just gimmick signings hoping that they make it to draw American fans to their club to gain more revenue.

Pulisic was smart in being self-aware of his talent and going to a club that succeeds at developing players, and players of his style.


----------



## Jeffrey

bleedblue1223 said:


> Erik Palmer-Brown looks to complete a move to City. I'll never understand why the promising US players that aren't Pulisic level talent will go to clubs that they likely have 0 chance of having any meaningful playing time at and clubs that don't have a great track record at developing the non-superstar talents.
> 
> EPB going to City is like Miazga going to Chelsea, they are just gimmick signings hoping that they make it to draw American fans to their club to gain more revenue.
> 
> Pulisic was smart in being self-aware of his talent and going to a club that succeeds at developing players, and players of his style.



All about the $$


----------



## Burner Account

3 games upheld for Mane. Stupid play.

Oh well, could be worse. Mane will miss Burnley and Leicester x2.


----------



## SJSharks72

bleedblue1223 said:


> Erik Palmer-Brown looks to complete a move to City. I'll never understand why the promising US players that aren't Pulisic level talent will go to clubs that they likely have 0 chance of having any meaningful playing time at and clubs that don't have a great track record at developing the non-superstar talents.
> 
> EPB going to City is like Miazga going to Chelsea, they are just gimmick signings hoping that they make it to draw American fans to their club to gain more revenue.
> 
> Pulisic was smart in being self-aware of his talent and going to a club that succeeds at developing players, and players of his style.




I don't get it. Why not go to a team in the Bundesliga or a Championship side where he can get some time? Or he can go to City with the promise of a loan move but even then there's no guarantees so just don't understand why EPB and Miazga moved.


----------



## Peen

Apparent fee for Costa is 60m according to marca

Realistically I see 40 and add-ons being something more likely.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Peen said:


> Apparent fee for Costa is 60m according to marca
> 
> Realistically I see 40 and add-ons being something more likely.




Impressive that Chelsea will be able to even get 40+ for Costa with how the situation has unfolded.


----------



## Blender

No idea what Frank de Boer was even trying to run with Palace. He sure didn't have the players needed to run the system he was attempting to play, they looked awful.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## YEM

bleedblue1223 said:


> Impressive that Chelsea will be able to even get 40+ for Costa with how the situation has unfolded.



frankly I see that number as a bargain to whomever [Athletico] buys him
a proven top scorer who is still fairly young...


----------



## bleedblue1223

MickeyMelchiondo said:


> frankly I see that number as a bargain to whomever [Athletico] buys him
> a proven top scorer who is still fairly young...




It's a bargain for a player of that caliber, but Costa only wants to go to 1 team, and he's going to be 29 before he plays for them, so 2-3 more years of his prime. Chelsea weren't really in a great negotiating position.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

I would not consider Â£40M+ a bargain for Costa at all. Rather overpriced. Why will they buy him for that amount when they are Chelsea's only option?


----------



## YEM

TopKex said:


> I would not consider Â£40M+ a bargain for Costa at all.



fees are ridic
Higuain went for more than double that a year or so ago, he's a bit older than Costa and has scored about a dozen more goals than him over the past 4 full seasons


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

MickeyMelchiondo said:


> fees are ridic
> Higuain went for more than double that a year or so ago, he's a bit older than Costa and has scored about a dozen more goals than him over the past 4 full seasons



And was that seen as some fantastic deal for Juve?


----------



## Deficient Mode

Arsenal Fan TV is so good


----------



## Savant

Thus far in the PL, the average of 12% of shots faced by teams are clear cut chances. Liverpool is currently worst in the league with giving up 28% clear cut chances. 

https://twitter.com/BassTunedToRed/status/909779730307670016


----------



## bleedblue1223

Almost like non-Liverpool fans have been correct about Liverpool's defense...


----------



## Savant

bleedblue1223 said:


> Almost like non-Liverpool fans have been correct about Liverpool's defense...




And Liverpool fans themselves too


----------



## Burner Account

Yeah I don't really know any Liverpool fans that rate Liverpool's defense


----------



## bleedblue1223

There were plenty that didn't think it would be as big of a downfall as others. There's been plenty of overrating of the overall team by not acknowledging how much the defense was going to hurt them.


----------



## Cassano

bleedblue1223 said:


> There were plenty that didn't think it would be as big of a downfall as others. There's been plenty of overrating of the overall team by not acknowledging how much the defense was going to hurt them.



Good thing they signed the ox. Clearly addressed their defensive problems.


----------



## YNWA14

The defence isn't going to hurt them any more than last year. That's just a symptom of Klopp's system.

So either a) they need to change the system to protect their net a little more b) they need the best defenders in the world if they want a strong defensive record or c) they need to make sure their offensive output is consistent against bottom teams.



DrRecchi said:


> Good thing they signed the ox. Clearly addressed their defensive problems.




You bring him up at every opportunity. He liked Liverpool better...get over it? You sound very sour.

I mean, clearly they didn't have defensive problems against Arsenal.


----------



## Cassano

There are 35m reasons to not be sour.


----------



## Live in the Now

kyle evs48 said:


> Yeah I don't really know any Liverpool fans that rate Liverpool's defense




Just one person.


----------



## Peen

Live in the Now said:


> Just one person.




It's a vocal minority


----------



## Savant

bleedblue1223 said:


> There were plenty that didn't think it would be as big of a downfall as others. There's been plenty of overrating of the overall team by not acknowledging how much the defense was going to hurt them.




I think most of the Liverpool fans on here have been pretty realistic. I don't think they will finish Top 4 unless they can add Van Dijk in January, but that doesn't mean that they won't be in the mix for it. I don't think anyone thought they would win the league, and there is a minute difference between finishing 2-4. I, for one, specifically have used words like "delusional" and "wrong" when describing Klopp. After they beat Arsenal, I also said that the result in that game won't matter if Liverpool can't beat the bottom teams and Arsenal can. I also said that going undefeated against the top 7 again was unsustainable. So let's try not to generalize the fan base when that clearly is not the consensus.


----------



## bleedblue1223

That's fair.


----------



## Burner Account

Worst defensive record in the top half of the table. Their defending still stinks, but most of their GA followed an early red card against the best offensive team in the league.


----------



## maclean

DrRecchi said:


> There are 35m reasons to not be sour.




The one part of that 35m it's easy to be sour about is that it's just sitting in the bank

But otherwise Curtinho I dare you to find a single Arsenal fan on here who's sad to see Ox go


----------



## Chimaera

I'll step up and say that I didn't think it would be as bad as it is. Though if Lovren has been playing injured, it does beg some question on some of it of late. 

I thought they would have more attack to overcome their defensive shortcomings.



That said, most of their defensive failing was against a team where they gave up with 10 men. They're conceding some soft goals that cost them a few points, but I don't know that it's doom and gloom. Just like they aren't as good as they looked when the played Arsenal, they're not as bad as they looked when they lose to City.


----------



## Savant

Chimaera said:


> I'll step up and say that I didn't think it would be as bad as it is. Though if Lovren has been playing injured, it does beg some question on some of it of late.
> 
> I thought they would have more attack to overcome their defensive shortcomings.
> 
> That said, most of their defensive failing was against a team where they gave up with 10 men. They're conceding some soft goals that cost them a few points, but I don't know that it's doom and gloom. Just like they aren't as good as they looked when the played Arsenal, they're not as bad as they looked when they lose to City.




I think it's certainly fair to say the truth is somewhere in the middle. the fact is that the three teams that finished behind them in the league all got better. So while the 4 CBs that LFC used last year may have been good enough for top four last season, it was very foolish to rest on those laurels.


----------



## Evilo

I don't think Liverpool is as good as some (mainly one) was claiming them to be after the Arsenal blowout.
I don't think they're as bad as some (many) are claiming them to be after the last few games.
They'll finish between 3rd and 6th.
Chelsea, City and probably United will finish above them. After that Spurs, Liverpool and possibly Arsenal will fight for 4th.


----------



## Savant

Evilo said:


> I don't think Liverpool is as good as some (mainly one) was claiming them to be after the Arsenal blowout.
> I don't think they're as bad as some (many) are claiming them to be after the last few games.
> They'll finish between 3rd and 6th.
> Chelsea, City and probably United will finish above them. After that Spurs, Liverpool and possibly Arsenal will fight for 4th.




Well said. I agree with all of this


----------



## YNWA14

kyle evs48 said:


> Worst defensive record in the top half of the table. Their defending still stinks, but most of their GA followed an early red card against the best offensive team in the league.




It's all a bit of overreaction.

Replay the Sevilla (shots 25-7 with a missed penalty) and Burnley (outshot 35-5 with two clear penalties not called) games again and 9 times out of 10 those are wins for Liverpool. They've pretty much dominated every game they've played this season minus the City one, and even that game was completely skewed by an early red (not because of the way the teams were playing either, just a stupid 'accident' on Mane's part).

Yes, they have some issues defensively but a lot of that is systemic. Klopp places a massive emphasis on attack first, and because of that it means when the teams that play very defensively do get chances most of our players are pushed up and rushing back to defend meaning our defenders have to essentially play perfectly or give up a really good chance.

Especially with Coutinho coming back into the fold, and other players returning from injury like Lallana and Mane coming back from his red the team is going to be just fine. They do need another CB, and a lot of rumours are it'll happen in the winter, but we'll see where that goes.


----------



## Baxterman

Chimaera said:


> I'll step up and say that I didn't think it would be as bad as it is. Though if Lovren has been playing injured, it does beg some question on some of it of late.
> 
> I thought they would have more attack to overcome their defensive shortcomings.
> 
> 
> 
> That said, most of their defensive failing was against a team where they gave up with 10 men. They're conceding some soft goals that cost them a few points, but I don't know that it's doom and gloom. Just like they aren't as good as they looked when the played Arsenal, they're not as bad as they looked when they lose to City.




I don't think it is just the number of goals but how those goals against are scored. I am not sure I have seen so many goals where there was a clear cut awful play by the CB that directly lead to the goal. 

People correctly point out that Liverpool has a lot of offensive abiity that allows them to control the ball and limit those chances but as someone (I think savant) has pointed out the success rate of strikes against Liverpool is crazy high and not that is not because they have had bad luck but because of how the CB's play the chances to strike that the opponent get are so much easier to convert.

It isn't going to stop them from being in the top 6, likely won't stop them from being competitve in their weak CL group and may not even stop them from finishing top 4. But I do think it will definitely stop them from challenging for the title and going further in CL (unless they get a sweetheart draw).

It isnt just a Klopp systematic problem it is that Matip, Lovren, Klavan, Gomez is a bad group of CB's for the top level of EPL and CL football.


----------



## YNWA14

Yet all of those CBs have thrived in different systems. Two of them being considered among the best CBs in their respective leagues at the time. Sakho, who was viewed as a very good defender for the NT, Paris and now has been lauded at Palace, looked extremely inconsistent and prone to error when he played for Liverpool also. Yes, there are individual errors but a lot of teams have CBs that have similar errors at times; the difference is that most of those teams are set up defensively to allow for errors or miscues here and there and someone else will cover for them.

Of course a large part of it is systemic. They essentially play a back 2 with a holding midfielder that also roams forward.


----------



## Chimaera

I mean, in a one off chance against many clubs, they can probably pull it out. They're able to do it against clubs that they get up for. The manager has that impact, and they have some big game players. 

the trouble is the out and out consistency. 

They're an inconsistent side playing a style that does not lead to consistent results in the back.


----------



## Baxterman

Curtinho said:


> Yet all of those CBs have thrived in different systems. Two of them being considered among the best CBs in their respective leagues at the time. Sakho, who was viewed as a very good defender for the NT, Paris and now has been lauded at Palace, looked extremely inconsistent and prone to error when he played for Liverpool also. Yes, there are individual errors but a lot of teams have CBs that have similar errors at times; the difference is that most of those teams are set up defensively to allow for errors or miscues here and there and someone else will cover for them.
> 
> Of course a large part of it is systemic. They essentially play a back 2 with a holding midfielder that also roams forward.




Who were the two that were considered to be the best in their respective leagues? Certainly not Lovren. I can't imagine that Klavan was ever considered amongst the best Bundeliga CB's?

Sahko has looked ok for Palace but I would think you of all people would acknowledge that there is (should be) a difference in good for Palace and good for Liverpool. It isn't like teams in the top 6 are clamouring to add him to their teams.

But beyond that watch the play. It isn't like they are put out of position by the formation, they routinely miss clearances, misplay the ball and leave guys wide open, unmarked. Now I don't think that Klopp is nearly as good as many who overrate him but I can't imagine his system says "hey CB's both guys go to Chris Wood and let him win the ball while Arfield is left with a clear shot on goal." And that kind of play happens all the time.

I mean pretty much all pundits, all opposing fans, majority of Liverpool fans and the play on the field all point to them not being good enough but you are right it is systematic and everyone else is wrong.


----------



## Live in the Now

They have lost literally two games since March began. One of those being a game where they got a red card. 

I think maybe people should chill some.


----------



## Savant

Live in the Now said:


> They have lost literally two games since March began. One of those being a game where they got a red card.
> 
> I think maybe people should chill some.




I don't care about the 5-0 to Man City. 

What bothers me is the Burnley game. Which has been a carbon copy of their consistently underwhelming performances against those teams. Nothing has changed. That is a problem. 

I don't have my pitchfork out yet but dropping those two points was very bad.


----------



## YNWA14

Savant said:


> I don't care about the 5-0 to Man City.
> 
> What bothers me is the Burnley game. Which has been a carbon copy of their consistently underwhelming performances against those teams. Nothing has changed. That is a problem.
> 
> I don't have my pitchfork out yet but dropping those two points was very bad.




Of course it sucks to drop those 2 points, especially partially because of a defensive error.

That said, the ref missed 2 clear cut penalties, and we had 35 shots and over 70% possession (which is incredible when you think about it). Their keeper made a few really strong saves. Between the Burnley game and the Watford game there's been a 4 goal swing of missed calls that would have seen us with 4 more points. In theory the reffing should average out over the season. Not sure how those were 'underwhelming' so to speak. It's hard to score on teams that put 10 players in the box a lot of the time.

The process is often more important than the immediate results. More often than not a performance like that would result in a win. As long as we're consistently playing that well the individual errors and poor reffing decisions will get filtered out and we'll do very well.


----------



## Savant

Curtinho said:


> Of course it sucks to drop those 2 points, especially partially because of a defensive error.
> 
> That said, the ref missed 2 clear cut penalties, and we had 35 shots and over 70% possession (which is incredible when you think about it). Their keeper made a few really strong saves. Between the Burnley game and the Watford game there's been a 4 goal swing of missed calls that would have seen us with 4 more points. In theory the reffing should average out over the season. Not sure how those were 'underwhelming' so to speak. It's hard to score on teams that put 10 players in the box a lot of the time.
> 
> The process is often more important than the immediate results. More often than not a performance like that would result in a win. As long as we're consistently playing that well the individual errors and poor reffing decisions will get filtered out and we'll do very well.




I'm not blaming the refs for Liverpool scoring 1 goal for 35 shots. None of the players even appealed for the penalty. I'm also not blaming the ref if they are getting scored 3 times on by Watford. Doesn't help anything and the fact remains that they have poor execution. That's 4 points that they won't have at the end of the season because they were sloppy with teams that they should have buried. 1 point separated Liverpool and Arsenal last year, and LFC did the double on them. The margins are too small for Klopp to keep making the same mistakes.


----------



## YNWA14

So you want Liverpool to prevent offside goals as well as onside ones? I think you're holding them to too high an expectation in that case.

As far as breaking teams down...I mean, you want us to be able to penetrate teams that are defending in low blocks (ie. Burnley with their consistent use of 7+ men in the box) or take long shots that are on target. When we did penetrate multiple times they just fouled (twice inside the box that were clear fouls). So if they can defend deep like that and block shooting lanes, and also be allowed to bring down players that do manage to penetrate without penalty then it's always going to be very difficult to score. Yes, we should have scored on some of our other chances, but at the same time you're still fighting an uphill battle to score under those circumstances (and that's not limited to LFC). The refs really need to be more heavy handed about physicality in the box, but there's a weird culture around spirited defending.

Also appealing for a penalty isn't going to change the decision and with the new stance regarding dissent it's not a surprise that players are making less and less claims. It's not just happening in Liverpool games either.


----------



## Baxterman

Live in the Now said:


> They have lost literally two games since March began. One of those being a game where they got a red card.
> 
> I think maybe people should chill some.




Sure but I think that in many of the games (Watford, Sevilla, City, Burnley, even the 2nd Hoffenheim game) that the same issues that have held Liverpool back in the past were there and that since they have done nothing to improve it that it isn't really surprising.

Also in regards to chilling I don't think that anyone is saying Liverpool is screwed but when there is a clear weakness and a. nothing is done about it and b. the manager and some fans are saying it isn't a problem that it is going to become a talking point.


----------



## Savant

Curtinho said:


> So you want Liverpool to prevent offside goals as well as onside ones? I think you're holding them to too high an expectation in that case.
> 
> As far as breaking teams down...I mean, you want us to be able to penetrate teams that are defending in low blocks (ie. Burnley with their consistent use of 7+ men in the box) or take long shots that are on target. When we did penetrate multiple times they just fouled (twice inside the box that were clear fouls). So if they can defend deep like that and block shooting lanes, and also be allowed to bring down players that do manage to penetrate without penalty then it's always going to be very difficult to score. Yes, we should have scored on some of our other chances, but at the same time you're still fighting an uphill battle to score under those circumstances (and that's not limited to LFC). The refs really need to be more heavy handed about physicality in the box, but there's a weird culture around spirited defending.
> 
> Also appealing for a penalty isn't going to change the decision and with the new stance regarding dissent it's not a surprise that players are making less and less claims. It's not just happening in Liverpool games either.




Yes I want them to not let in corner kicks at an alarming rate, offsides or not. If there is a "weird culture about spirited defending" then the manager and his staff should recognize and account for that. 

Appealing for a penalty may or may not help but it illustrates that no one in the squad has a voice. No one is organizing no one is leading. How many Man City players ran straight to the ref after Mane clipped Ederson? How many Liverpool players? There is no vocal leadership on the pitch and it shows.


----------



## YNWA14

Savant said:


> Yes I want them to not let in corner kicks at an alarming rate, offsides or not. If there is a "weird culture about spirited defending" then the manager and his staff should recognize and account for that.




Klopp mentioned today as well about if we had video refs it's likely we have 4 more points. They're trying to account for that but there's only so much you can do. Salah was added to help deal with that and it's still a work in progress with Mane out, Coutinho still coming up to speed and the team carrying passengers like Can (don't even get me started at how he should never play for us but whatever).

As far as that one offside goal they had off a corner where their player was standing on the goal line and impeding Mignolet's ability to make a save...kind of harsh to blame on the team but I do agree with the general sentiment that we need to be better on set pieces (offensively and defensively).



> Appealing for a penalty may or may not help but it illustrates that no one in the squad has a voice. No one is organizing no one is leading. How many Man City players ran straight to the ref after Mane clipped Ederson? How many Liverpool players? There is no vocal leadership on the pitch and it shows.




I mean...why would the Liverpool players be getting in the ref's face over that? It was a clear as day dangerous play there wasn't much to argue.


----------



## Baxterman

Curtinho said:


> Klopp mentioned today as well about if we had video refs it's likely we have 4 more points. They're trying to account for that but there's only so much you can do. Salah was added to help deal with that and it's still a work in progress with Mane out, Coutinho still coming up to speed and the team carrying passengers like Can (don't even get me started at how he should never play for us but whatever).
> 
> As far as that one offside goal they had off a corner where their player was standing on the goal line and impeding Mignolet's ability to make a save...kind of harsh to blame on the team but I do agree with the general sentiment that we need to be better on set pieces (offensively and defensively).




4 points???

Are you trying to spin that BS narrative that the Watford goal was offside?

And that goes both ways with other teams getting points they deserved as well. It is like Liverpool is the only team with tough calls go against them.


----------



## Live in the Now

The Watford equalizer was offside.


----------



## YNWA14

Baxterman said:


> 4 points???
> 
> Are you trying to spin that BS narrative that the Watford goal was offside?
> 
> And that goes both ways with other teams getting points they deserved as well. It is like Liverpool is the only team with tough calls go against them.




Not only was it offside but the Watford player was also obstructing the keeper.

I clearly said above 'the reffing should average out'. I was just pointing out instances this season that have already happened that, in theory, won't continue to happen over the length of the season (there were two offside goals in the Watford game, fwiw).

I also said that it didn't just happen to Liverpool. Is there anything else you'd like to add?


----------



## Baxterman

Curtinho said:


> Not only was it offside but the Watford player was also obstructing the keeper.
> 
> I clearly said above 'the reffing should average out'. I was just pointing out instances this season that have already happened that, in theory, won't continue to happen over the length of the season (there were two offside goals in the Watford game, fwiw).
> 
> I also said that it didn't just happen to Liverpool.* Is there anything else you'd like to add?*




Yes the player was onside and not interferring with the goalie. It was a good goal that would and should be called a good goal no matter how many video replays they have.

But by all means continue to come up with reasons for Liverpools defensive woes that ignore what is plain as day for everyone else.


----------



## YNWA14

That's an interesting take on what's going on above. Could you describe that photo evidence then? I'm genuinely interested in hearing about what makes it onside, and how the player isn't obstructing the keeper.


----------



## Baxterman

Curtinho said:


> That's an interesting take on what's going on above. Could you describe that photo evidence then? I'm genuinely interested in hearing about what makes it onside, and how the player isn't obstructing the keeper.




He is behind the ball and standing there. Keeper is free to move around without being obstructed at all.


----------



## YNWA14

Baxterman said:


> He is behind the ball and standing there. Keeper is free to move around without being obstructed at all.









Thank you for clarifying.


----------



## Live in the Now

If you think he's behind the ball and not obstructing the keeper you need glasses.


----------



## Theokritos

Side note: The offside rule shouldn't apply in the goal area. It serves no purpose there.


----------



## Chimaera

Theokritos said:


> Side note: The offside rule shouldn't apply in the goal area. It serves no purpose there.




Uh yeah it should. Teams would just post a big mug right in front of the keeper every chance.


----------



## Theokritos

Chimaera said:


> Uh yeah it should. Teams would just post a big mug right in front of the keeper every chance.




You figure? It seems unlikely to me, but I might be wrong. 

EDIT: What I meant is that offside shouldn't apply for passes within the goal area.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Theokritos said:


> You figure? It seems unlikely to me, but I might be wrong.
> 
> EDIT: What I meant is that offside shouldn't apply for passes within the goal area.




You're still going to basically have what happens in hockey with players screening the goalie or poaching for garbage goals in an offside position.


----------



## YNWA14

Theokritos said:


> You figure? It seems unlikely to me, but I might be wrong.
> 
> EDIT: What I meant is that offside shouldn't apply for passes within the goal area.




Yeah but that's his point. Look at what happened in that goal above...the player was essentially leaning on the goalie. If you take offsides away in those situations you're going to just turn it into hockey where you have a bunch of guys crowding in the goalie as soon as the ball gets into the box.


----------



## Baxterman

Curtinho said:


> Yeah but that's his point. Look at what happened in that goal above...the player was essentially leaning on the goalie. If you take offsides away in those situations you're going to just turn it into hockey where you have a bunch of guys crowding in the goalie as soon as the ball gets into the box.




What happened in the goal above is that Liverpool defenders and goalkeeper played it terribly as usual and were punished for it.

Why put rules in place to babysit bad defensive teams? 

The rules were correctly applied, a good goal was scored. Why we would want to change that?


----------



## Burner Account

Can, Matip, and Lovren all with knocks

This close to a Gomez-Klavan pairing for a Champions League match


----------



## YNWA14

Being blind and ignorant obviously has its merits.



kyle evs48 said:


> Can, Matip, and Lovren all with knocks
> 
> This close to a Gomez-Klavan pairing for a Champions League match




They should call up Masterson at this point, heh.

I'd like to see this midfield tried out:

Wijnaldum
Woodburn - Coutinho​
I mean, you can say what you want about wanting physicality but Wijnaldum is the most tactically astute midfielder we have and he'll do the job asked of him. He's also the best at absorbing the press and pressure, his first touch is absolutely astounding and while he has made some mistakes in the past I still feel he'd be the most focused of the three (Henderson/Can) in actually tracking back. On top of which he's actually sneakily good in the air.


----------



## Savant

kyle evs48 said:


> Can, Matip, and Lovren all with knocks
> 
> This close to a Gomez-Klavan pairing for a Champions League match




"If there was a solution, out there we would have done it. There was no solution"

"We watched [other centerbacks] 500 million times"

Thanks Klopp. 

Going to be a healthy dose of the left back platoon with Klavan Gomez and Trent. 

Buckle up.


----------



## awesomo

still printing money

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...ted-post-record-revenue-and-operating-profits


----------



## Jussi

Apparently Pogba's contacted Finnish surgeon Sakari Orava (who operated on Dembele this/last week and has operated numerous other big name athletes) and next week they'll decide if he'll do Pogba s well.


----------



## Live in the Now

Aguero was in a car accident and will be out at least two months. Also...


----------



## Luigi Habs

Wow happy he's alive but that's a tough break for himself and Man City.


----------



## Savant

Saw the Aguero news. Didn’t know if it was for real. Glad he is okay.


----------



## Jussi

awesomo said:


> still printing money
> 
> http://www.skysports.com/football/n...ted-post-record-revenue-and-operating-profits




In detail:


----------



## cgf

Wonder if our West Ham fan could lemme know how Edimilson has been coming along for them?


----------



## gary69

Video from a Diego Costa interview, with funny fake subtitles about wanting an immediate Chelsea return.

http://www.tribalfootball.com/artic...leading-with-chelsea-to-take-him-back-4201287


----------



## SJSharks72

Savant said:


> Saw the Aguero news. Didn’t know if it was for real. Glad he is okay.



It looks like it's not exactly right. I saw something that either him or City posted on twitter about it being a month or less.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

cgf said:


> Wonder if our West Ham fan could lemme know how Edimilson has been coming along for them?




Well, he's been injured lately and hasn't featured in the last few weeks, but he's a tough one to evaluate, mostly because he's almost exclusively been played out of position. He's played everywhere from right wing-back to left wing, and almost never in his preferred central midfield position. Seems a very raw player, but has excellent athleticism and good technique. I kind of worry about what's in between the ears, though. Prone to lapses in concentration and sometimes fails to track runners behind him. I'm not sure he anticipates the game well enough to be a good CM, but he's got decent potential. Like I said, it'd be nice to see him play where he's most comfortable, but I don't think he'll displace Obiang, Kouyate, or Noble (though if it were up to me Noble would be glued to the bench) anytime soon.


----------



## cgf

Jersey Fresh said:


> Well, he's been injured lately and hasn't featured in the last few weeks, but he's a tough one to evaluate, mostly because he's almost exclusively been played out of position. He's played everywhere from right wing-back to left wing, and almost never in his preferred central midfield position. Seems a very raw player, but has excellent athleticism and good technique. I kind of worry about what's in between the ears, though. Prone to lapses in concentration and sometimes fails to track runners behind him. I'm not sure he anticipates the game well enough to be a good CM, but he's got decent potential. Like I said, it'd be nice to see him play where he's most comfortable, but I don't think he'll displace Obiang, Kouyate, or Noble (though if it were up to me Noble would be glued to the bench) anytime soon.




Thanks for the response. He's one I'm curious about because the tools are obvious, but I don't know where his best position is. Maybe it is as a dynamic box to box midfielder, like he initially looked like he'd become, but I'm not sure he doesn't become a winger or even wingback instead to take advantage of that combination of physical tools & skill.

Still hoping he & Zakaria both make good on their potential to run wild in front of Xhaka for the Swiss NT.

Embolo - Oberlin
Zuber - Edimilson^ - Zakaria - Widmer*
Xhaka
RiRo - Schar** - Elvedi
Mvogo

^Haas / Janjicic / Grgic / Lauper / Sierro / Sow / Aebischer / Ugrinic
*Hadergjonaj / Lotomba / Hefti / Spielmann / Mbabu
**Akanji / Bamert / Hefti / Mbabu​


----------



## Jersey Fresh

cgf said:


> Thanks for the response. He's one I'm curious about because the tools are obvious, but I don't know where his best position is. Maybe it is as a dynamic box to box midfielder, like he initially looked like he'd become, but I'm not sure he doesn't become a winger or even wingback instead to take advantage of that combination of physical tools & skill.
> 
> Still hoping he & Zakaria both make good on their potential to run wild in front of Xhaka for the Swiss NT.
> 
> Embolo - Oberlin
> Zuber - Edimilson* - Zakaria - Widmer**
> Xhaka
> RiRo - Schar^ - Elvedi
> Mvogo
> 
> *Haas / Grgic / Janjicic / Sow / Lauper / Sierro / Aebischer / Ugrinic
> **Edimilson / Hadergjonaj / Lotomba / Hefti / Spielmann / Mbabu / Sow
> ^Akanji / Bamert / Hefti / Mbabu​




For what it's worth, he's looked terrible on the wing when he's played there. More competent at RWB, but I still don't think it suits him.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Mane out 6-8 weeks.


----------



## Burner Account

Lol.


----------



## Savant

TopKex said:


> Mane out 6-8 weeks.




http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sadio-mane-miss-liverpools-next-13743258

Will miss next ten games including European games, Man U, Tottenham and Chelsea. 

Time for Klopp to show he is worth that extension.


----------



## Halladay

Well, goos thing Lallana doest seem too far away from getting back.


----------



## YNWA14

Losing Mane right before the Man U game seems about right.


----------



## Havre

I´m not sure how serious the Kante injury is, but Morata, Mane and potentially Kante out could really help Spurs.

Not that I´m happy about it. Hate injuries regardless who gets them (Spurs will also get their injuries of course - not only Dembele).


----------



## East Coast Bias

We're down Fellani, Jones and possibly Lukaku after the internationals.


----------



## phisherman

I think Man City is the only top team that wasn't affected by this break. Arsenal will most likely do their 2 left back as centre backs in their next match.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Havre said:


> I´m not sure how serious the Kante injury is, but Morata, Mane and potentially Kante out could really help Spurs.
> 
> Not that I´m happy about it. Hate injuries regardless who gets them (Spurs will also get their injuries of course - not only Dembele).




I find Dembele, Wanyama, Rose and Lamela to be a large enough injury list. 

Some crucial games coming up. Hope that Winks gets the nod in central midfield over Sissoko.


----------



## Havre

Considering Winks is already our best CM that is a given (Dembele 100% is better, but that we will never see again).

Hope Winks is rested on Saturday though. Need him in Madrid.

All good players injured, but Morata, Kante and Mane are more comparable to Kane, Eriksen and Alderweireld then the Spursplayers (Rose being close, but Davies is covering very very well at the moment).


----------



## Savant

BlameUtley said:


> Well, goos thing Lallana doest seem too far away from getting back.




Still don’t think there is a chance of Lallana back before November


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Havre said:


> Considering Winks is already our best CM that is a given (Dembele 100% is better, but that we will never see again).
> 
> Hope Winks is rested on Saturday though. Need him in Madrid.




Can't wait to see Modric Vs Modric-lite.


----------



## Havre

Haha  I love Winks, but he will never be Modric.

Do agree it would be fun to see him on that stage. He seems to be tough enough mentally. And with Dembele out he is the only CM that might be able to keep the ball a bit.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Rose and Pamela spotted in first team training. Rose seems to have gained alot of mass.


----------



## Havre

Got to be a tshirt or something making that picture looking a bit odd.

Very good to see. Hopefully it will give the team a boost with more players involved in the training sessions. Really need them to step up the next month or so. Tough games lining up. 0 points against RM in two matches and a loss or two in one of the big league games and the season starts to dwindle away quickly. Might have the opposite effect if they can grind out some good results in the same games.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## Havre

Pochettino is basically always spot on when it comes to these kind of things. One of the very few true gentlemen left in the game (Ancelotti seems to the same kind of guy - even if I don't know him as well as I know Pochettino from interviews - and I always liked Scolari).


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

With his fifth Player of the Month win, Harry Kane (at age 24) now has the second most of those in the history of the EPL, behind Stevie G.


----------



## Theokritos

Havre said:


> Pochettino is basically always spot on when it comes to these kind of things. One of the very few true gentlemen left in the game (Ancelotti seems to the same kind of guy - even if I don't know him as well as I know Pochettino from interviews - and *I always liked Scolari*).




Whoa there. Scolari is rather infamous as one of the "dirty" coaches in big soccer. Anything but a gentleman. The kind of guy who has no problem sending a player out to deliberately hurt the opponents' star player.


----------



## Havre

Theokritos said:


> Whoa there. Scolari is rather infamous as one of the "dirty" coaches in big soccer. Anything but a gentleman. The kind of guy who has no problem sending a player out to deliberately hurt the opponents' star player.




OK. No problem admitting I don’t know him that well. At Chelsea I just liked him. Could very well be he fooled me.


----------



## Blender

Kante is going to miss 7 games. That's a massive blow, you don't replace him.

http://www.foxsportsasia.com/football/premier-league/731110/chelseas-kante-set-miss-seven-games/


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Levy insists that Pochettino can be Tottenham's Ferguson:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...Mauricio-Pochettino-Tottenham-s-Alex-Ferguson


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Can Spurs win something first?


----------



## Hadoop

spintheblackcircle said:


> Can Spurs win something first?




Sadly probably not; gonna be tough for them to overtake the Manchester duo.


----------



## Hadoop

So which of the 'Big 6' teams has underachieved the most so far? Arsenal, Chelsea, or Liverpool?


----------



## Savant

Hadoop said:


> So which of the 'Big 6' teams has underachieved the most so far? Arsenal, Chelsea, or Liverpool?




Too soon to tell they all have the same amount of points. Probably Liverpool based on their poor European performances. Arsenal was the only one of these teams that got better in the summer though. Chelsea got good players but became shallower. Liverpool had a stupid summer without a plan.


----------



## Havre

Arsenal getting "better" is quite questionable. Yes - they brought Lacazette and Kolasinac in, but overall until Sanchez and Özil decide to start playing they are a far worse side this year. It was never likely Arsenal would get the best of those two this year. Should have been sold even if they weren´t replaced.

Even if Liverpool spent their money strangely they are still stronger.

Liverpool have looked the better team compared to Arsenal and Chelsea. Chelsea being the most disappointing I would argue. Not really looking good even when winning (in the PL that is).


----------



## Live in the Now

Liverpool has played the worst of those teams, yet are still even on points with them and have scored as many goals as them. They're not going to play this badly forever. If they do, they will give up 57 goals this season. Extremely unrealistic.

I am most annoyed that a side which could be strong with Mane out isn't able to be because Lallana is also out. They're carrying two midfielders who probably won't score, and one who will never score away from home due to that injury. Hopefully the Maribor game on Tuesday gets them into some decent form.


----------



## Savant

Havre said:


> Arsenal getting "better" is quite questionable. Yes - they brought Lacazette and Kolasinac in, but overall until Sanchez and Özil decide to start playing they are a far worse side this year. It was never likely Arsenal would get the best of those two this year. Should have been sold even if they weren´t replaced.
> 
> Even if Liverpool spent their money strangely they are still stronger.
> 
> Liverpool have looked the better team compared to Arsenal and Chelsea. Chelsea being the most disappointing I would argue. Not really looking good even when winning (in the PL that is).




Arsenal got better by bringing in Lacazette and Kolasinac. 

Liverpool aren’t stronger and they ignored their defense. 

Chelsea don’t need to look good to win games though. Arsenal and Liverpool do. 

All three have their issues but Arsenal is the healthiest and Chelsea is the best managed. Liverpool....has the best kit.


----------



## Havre

Salah doesn´t count? The price they paid for Ox was ridiculous, but disregarding the memes he still made Pool stronger (even if not by much) and Arsenal weaker.

Even if Robertson was the only one that might strengthen them in a weak area they are still better than last year in terms of what they got on paper (even if I personally would have spent the money in a very different way).

Arsenal are stronger on paper as well, but you can´t just pretend that the contract situation with Sanchez and Özil isn´t there.


----------



## Savant

Havre said:


> Salah doesn´t count? The price they paid for Ox was ridiculous, but disregarding the memes he still made Pool stronger (even if not by much) and Arsenal weaker.
> 
> Even if Robertson was the only one that might strengthen them in a weak area they are still better than last year in terms of what they got on paper (even if I personally would have spent the money in a very different way).
> 
> Arsenal are stronger on paper as well, but you can´t just pretend that the contract situation with Sanchez and Özil isn´t there.




I’d rather have Lacazette and Kolasinac than Salah and Robertson honestly. The contract issue is their own doing. I’d rather have two elite players that need a kick in butt than Liverpool’s problem of their own doing which was ignoring the defense. Chamberlain will definitely be a nice piece but he isn’t a player that will solidify a Top 4 position.


----------



## Havre

I think every single neutral fan would have Lacazette/Kolasinac over Salah/Robertson. That was not my point.

If Sanchez and Özil perform to their ability this would not be a conversation. Arsenal would most seasons beat Liverpool (assuming both teams being about equally healthy). But did anyone really think Sanchez and Özil would play their best football this season under Wenger? Yes - their own doing, but why does that matter for this discussion?

Arsenal remind me of the Canucks. Sinking slowly. They could have started the "rebuild" in a proper way this summer - instead they are holding on to something that doesn´t work. Maybe they even keep Özil paying him a lot more than anyone else. Sounds like a great way to build a team.


----------



## Jussi

Pogba might not be out for long after all, already doing light training.


----------



## YNWA14

I would take Salah/Robertson over Lacazette/Kolasinac if Klopp would actually play Robertson. Liverpool and Chelsea are both better than Arsenal and it'll show through by the end of the season. Liverpool have exactly the same team but they added Ox, Robertson and Salah so how are they not stronger?

Chelsea, Spurs and Liverpool will fight for the other 2 top 4 spots this season. Arsenal will not. If anyone has underachieved this far though I'd say it's Chelsea. Drawing against Arsenal, losing to Burnley and Crystal Palace is not great for them.


----------



## Evilo

Curtinho said:


> I would take Salah/Robertson over Lacazette/Kolasinac



Who would doubt that you would?


----------



## YNWA14

Let me guess...you'd take Lacazette and Kolasinac?


----------



## Evilo

As stated in this thread, everyone would.


----------



## Luigi Habs

Curtinho said:


> Let me guess...you'd take Lacazette and Kolasinac?




Would say it's even

I'd take Kolasinac over Robertson but Salah over Lacazette. 

Slightly over in both cases.


----------



## hatterson

I don't even see why it's much of a question.

That's not saying Salah and Robertson are bad, but Lacazette and Kolasinac are both better players and there's not a meaningful age difference between the pairs to make a difference


----------



## YNWA14

What has Lacazette done to put him over Salah?

What has Kolasinac done to put him over Robertson?

In both cases the latter two have looked better in the PL, and both are NT mainstays (Salah dragged Egypt into the WC nearly singlehandedly might I add, while Lacazette has underwhelmed in his cameos for France). But if you've already made up your mind that Lacazette and Kolasinac are better because name brand and whatnot all the power to you. I like both pairs though, and I wouldn't say there's a meaningful difference either way.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Kolasinac>>>>>>>>>>Robertson

Lacazette>Salah


----------



## hatterson

Curtinho said:


> What has Lacazette done to put him over Salah?




He's got a much better goal scoring record and Salah doesn't bring near enough in chance creation to make up for it for me.


----------



## YNWA14

hatterson said:


> He's got a much better goal scoring record and Salah doesn't bring near enough in chance creation to make up for it for me.




Well, I mean Salah recorded 15 goals and 11 assists last season while Lacazette scored 28 goals and 3 assists...of course 10 of those goals were penalties. So if you give Salah 10 penalties it's not unreasonable to believe he'd be very close in goals, but he provides much more than Lacazette does, and Salah isn't a striker. But to each their own (previous year was similar, Salah with 14 goals though and Lacazette with 21 (8 penalties IIRC).)


----------



## phisherman

Curtinho said:


> Well, I mean Salah recorded 15 goals and 11 assists last season while Lacazette scored 28 goals and 3 assists...of course 10 of those goals were penalties. So if you give Salah 10 penalties it's not unreasonable to believe he'd be very close in goals, but he provides much more than Lacazette does, and Salah isn't a striker. But to each their own (previous year was similar, Salah with 14 goals though and Lacazette with 21 (8 penalties IIRC).)




Different leagues. Ligue 1 is harder to score in.

And Kolasinac was named in the Bundesliga team of the year.


----------



## YNWA14

Salah has the same number of goals as Lacazette, more assists, and many more chances created so far this season in the same league.


----------



## hatterson

Curtinho said:


> Well, I mean Salah recorded 15 goals and 11 assists last season while Lacazette scored 28 goals and 3 assists...of course 10 of those goals were penalties. So if you give Salah 10 penalties it's not unreasonable to believe he'd be very close in goals, but he provides much more than Lacazette does, and Salah isn't a striker. But to each their own (previous year was similar, Salah with 14 goals though and Lacazette with 21 (8 penalties IIRC).)




In the previous 3 years, Lacazette has 69 non pen goals (might be a couple off), and 13 assists in 129 games. Salah has 43 goals (no pens) and 24 assists in 117 games.

I'll take 69/13 over 43/24 all day long, especially with the 43/24 is going to a team without a true striker and already has a glut of creators.

I'd actually be curious on the number of penalties drawn as well. I'd guess Lacazette, simply by being in the box more as a striker, would have drawn more pens than Salah has.


----------



## phisherman

Curtinho said:


> Salah has the same number of goals as Lacazette, more assists, and many more chances created so far this season in the same league.




1 assist more and Salah has played more minutes.

And what's your argument on Robertson vs Kolasinac within this 8 game sample size you are using?


----------



## YNWA14

hatterson said:


> In the previous 3 years, Lacazette has 69 non pen goals (might be a couple off), and 13 assists in 129 games. Salah has 43 goals (no pens) and 24 assists in 117 games.
> 
> I'll take 69/13 over 43/24 all day long, especially with the 43/24 is going to a team without a true striker and already has a glut of creators.




If we're taking away penalties in the last 2 years though Salah has 29 goals and 17 assists; Lacazette has 31 goals and 6 assists. I would weight the most recent 2 years more heavily, especially when Salah has been clearly outperforming Lacazette in their new environments and internationally.



> I'd actually be curious on the number of penalties drawn as well. I'd guess Lacazette, simply by being in the box more as a striker, would have drawn more pens than Salah has.




Easy enough to figure out. Transfermarkt counts penalties drawn as assists (as they should) and whoscored doesn't. According to that Lacazette has drawn 0 penalties over the last 2 seasons and Salah has drawn 4.



phisherman said:


> 1 assist more and Salah has played more minutes.




2 assists more and he's played 40 more minutes over 8 games where they've both been a sub once. They've both started 7 games and subbed 1. But...sure.


----------



## phisherman

Curtinho said:


> If we're taking away penalties in the last 2 years though Salah has 29 goals and 17 assists; Lacazette has 31 goals and 6 assists. I would weight the most recent 2 years more heavily, especially when Salah has been clearly outperforming Lacazette in their new environments and internationally.
> 
> 
> 
> Easy enough to figure out. Transfermarkt counts penalties drawn as assists (as they should) and whoscored doesn't. According to that Lacazette has drawn 0 penalties over the last 2 seasons and Salah has drawn 4.
> 
> 
> 
> 2 assists more and he's played 40 more minutes over 8 games where they've both been a sub once. They've both started 7 games and subbed 1. But...sure.




And what about Robertson vs Kolasinac?


----------



## YNWA14

phisherman said:


> And what about Robertson vs Kolasinac?



What about them? I like what I've seen from Robertson; he was probably Liverpool's best player in the 1 PL game he got to start this season and he's been playing really well for Scotland while having a good track record with Hull (hence the buy). Kolasinac has been good for Arsenal and had a strong season in the BuLi. To me there's not a significant difference between the two from what I've seen though I think Kola is probably a bit stronger and better defensively while Robertson looks better offensively.

That said, like I said above there's probably not a huge difference between the two pairs. I'll take the Liverpool pair because they fit Liverpool better, I would say the player in the more important position is better (Salah > Lacazette) and the Liverpool pair are each a year younger.


----------



## S E P H

Lacazette only needs one or two chances to score, Salah gets like seven per game and maybe, just maybe scores on one of them. 

Alexandre is a much more dangerous option considering the lack of finishing skillz Salah possesses. I don't think Wenger has used him properly enough because he deeply cares about giving Giroud minutes. So instead of going out there and playing his game, he has this constant worry that he's going to be replaced every single time at the 70th minute for Giroud. 

As for Robertson vs Kolasinac, Robertson is a good young player and surprised why Liverpool isn't playing him more. He might have more potential and mobility over Kolasinac in the long run, but Kolasinac is easily the better player and has different strengths. It's hard to compare the two because they play such a different style.


----------



## Evilo

O penalty created by Lacazette.

Right


----------



## HajdukSplit

Ashley wants to sell Newcastle by Christmas, this is the club Vince McMahon has been linked with in the past


----------



## Jussi

HajdukSplit said:


> Ashley wants to sell Newcastle by Christmas, this is the club Vince McMahon has been linked with in the past


----------



## YNWA14

If Newcastle get competent owners they could be a very strong team. Would be interested to see how they do if they keep Rafa on and back him financially.


----------



## Havre

Would be more interesting to hear what neutrals think about those 4 players rather than Poolfans hyping theirs.

As a Spursfan I much prefer Pool over Arsenal. I have had a soft spot for Salah since he dominated against us playing for Basel. Still I can’t see how this isn’t a win for Arsenal. Salah might prove me wrong at some point as players develop, but I stand by my claim saying neutrals would take the Arsenal players.


----------



## East Coast Bias

The war that has developed between Arsenal and Liverpool fans is this season's most underrated plot line. It's fantastic. and it's all over Oxlade-Chamberlin! 

It's close btw the players, but I understand why Salah/Robertson make more sense for Klopp. Although Lacazette would have fit in nicely - he's fluid and moves well.


----------



## phisherman

East Coast Bias said:


> The war that has developed between Arsenal and Liverpool fans is this season's most underrated plot line. It's fantastic. and it's all over Oxlade-Chamberlin!
> 
> It's close btw the players, but I understand why Salah/Robertson make more sense for Klopp. Although Lacazette would have fit in nicely - he's fluid and moves well.




It's actually been going on for a while. Liverpool fans kept posting "Mighty" while they watched Arsenal playing in the CL for years while they at most played in Europa. Then the one year they make it to the CL and Arsenal didn't they suddenly become big headed and think they're miles better than Arsenal.

Then when you mention anything about the CL they will mention the 5 European titles they've won ages ago to try and justify they're still a big club. I mean I'm not even sure Milan fans do that.


----------



## Stray Wasp

Curtinho said:


> If Newcastle get competent owners *and Ashley doesn't screw them over in the deal in a similar vein to what he pulled at Rangers (or even worse) *they could be a very strong team. Would be interested to see how they do if they keep Rafa on and back him financially.




I've added the bolded part to emphasise just how unlikely it is that today's news is the beginning of happier ends.

There's a misconception that Newcastle's great problem is that all Ashley cares about is money. If that were true, the club would be in a far healthier state than it is. Ashley also cares about his self-image as a maverick who bucks conventional wisdom and wins. Where sports retail is concerned that reputation is justified. And I'm convinced he'll not leave football until he feels he's conquered it on his terms.

Naturally, I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## YNWA14

phisherman said:


> It's actually been going on for a while. Liverpool fans kept posting "Mighty" while they watched Arsenal playing in the CL for years while they at most played in Europa. Then the one year they make it to the CL and Arsenal didn't they suddenly become big headed and think they're miles better than Arsenal.
> 
> Then when you mention anything about the CL they will mention the 5 European titles they've won ages ago to try and justify they're still a big club. I mean I'm not even sure Milan fans do that.




Liverpool won the CL more recently than say...Arsenal won a PL title. Also obviously more recently than Arsenal has ever won any European trophy.


----------



## S E P H

phisherman said:


> It's actually been going on for a while. *Liverpool fans kept posting "Mighty" while they watched Arsenal playing in the CL for years while they at most played in Europa. * Then the one year they make it to the CL and Arsenal didn't they suddenly become big headed and think they're miles better than Arsenal.
> 
> Then when you mention anything about the CL they will mention the 5 European titles they've won ages ago to try and justify they're still a big club. I mean I'm not even sure Milan fans do that.



Ehhhhhh, that was me I think.

Arsenal's CL Final loss to Barcelona was harder to accomplish than Liverpool's CL win against Milan. Don't get me wrong, Liverpool had to win against Pirlo and Kaka, but they were fortunate it was penalties where upsets occur naturally. Arsenal had to fight against a Finals team consisting of Valdes, Deco, Ronaldinho (who was the best player in the world at the time), prime Puyol, and a world class Eto'o. Not even that, but Milan dominated that game and like Chelsea, Pool had one of the flukiest wins ever.


----------



## phisherman

Curtinho said:


> Liverpool won the CL more recently than say...Arsenal won a PL title. Also obviously more recently than Arsenal has ever won any European trophy.




Thanks for proving my point.


----------



## Savant

phisherman said:


> It's actually been going on for a while. Liverpool fans kept posting "Mighty" while they watched Arsenal playing in the CL.




Quote please


----------



## phisherman

Savant said:


> Quote please




I can't find any since the messages were lost after the site change.

But anytime Arsenal didn't do well the immediate response was "Mighty". As if Liverpool were doing any better at the time.

And I believe both teams are on the same level. Just the smugness of some Liverpool supporters is really irritating. You don't hear any Arsenal supporters mentioning about the EPL trophies won over 10 years ago.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

I find it interesting how mainly one person rates Salah over Lacazette, when Lacazette is playing for such an inferior team according to them.


----------



## Evilo

If Lacazette starts every game and finally breaks through in terms of big games and consistent effectiveness under pressure, then he's world class.
He has that potential, and I still can't decide if he'll reach it or not.
I don't think Salah is world class, although a very very good player.


----------



## YNWA14

S E P H said:


> Ehhhhhh, that was me I think.
> 
> Arsenal's CL Final loss to Barcelona was harder to accomplish than Liverpool's CL win against Milan. Don't get me wrong, Liverpool had to win against Pirlo and Kaka, but they were fortunate it was penalties where upsets occur naturally. Arsenal had to fight against a Finals team consisting of Valdes, Deco, Ronaldinho (who was the best player in the world at the time), prime Puyol, and a world class Eto'o. Not even that, but Milan dominated that game and like Chelsea, Pool had one of the flukiest wins ever.




Come on now. That AC Milan team was absolutely stacked top to bottom. They won the CL twice in 5 years, made the finals 3 times and only lost in the semis to Barca the year they won 1-0.


----------



## Savant

phisherman said:


> I can't find any since the messages were lost after the site change.
> 
> But anytime Arsenal didn't do well the immediate response was "Mighty". As if Liverpool were doing any better at the time.
> 
> And I believe both teams are on the same level. Just the smugness of some Liverpool supporters is really irritating. You don't hear any Arsenal supporters mentioning about the EPL trophies won over 10 years ago.




Yeah I mean neither team is the picture of victory right now. I don’t think the majority have really gone after Arsenal too bad. I haven’t even really watched CL if Liverpool wasn’t in it. CL depends on the draw and Arsenal kept running into Bayern. Only so much you can do.


----------



## YNWA14

Hard to watch but Raheem Sterling has been incredible this season.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Goodbye Shakespeare.


----------



## S E P H

Curtinho said:


> Come on now. That AC Milan team was absolutely stacked top to bottom. They won the CL twice in 5 years, made the finals 3 times and only lost in the semis to Barca the year they won 1-0.



Milan was an amazing team, no arguments from me, but the Barca one we faced were better and only got better after that game considering that Xavi, Messi, and Iniesta were about to explode. Ironically and funny enough, after that season or the next Ronaldinho moved to Milan.


----------



## YNWA14

S E P H said:


> Milan was an amazing team, no arguments from me, but the Barca one we faced were better and only got better after that game considering that Xavi, Messi, and Iniesta were about to explode. Ironically and funny enough, after that season or the next Ronaldinho moved to Milan.




I think the Milan team was probably better. Shevchenko and Kaka both won the Ballon d'Or, greats like Maldini, Nesta, Gattuso, Seedorf, Pirlo, Stam, Cafu, Crespo...not a hole anywhere on that team. There's a reason they went on an won the CL again the year after Barca did (meeting Liverpool again in the final) even with Barca on the rise (and again, lost to Barca 1-0 over 2 legs the year Barca beat Arsenal). I also agree that Milan dominated the game against Liverpool and it was a miraculous victory.

I mean, Liverpool beat that same Barcelona team the next year in the first round of the knockouts before Milan won the CL.


----------



## Howie Hodge

TopKex said:


> Goodbye Shakespeare.



No surprise there, they have been terrible this year despite ownership spending money. 

Appleton Manages this coming week, and the Club is searching for a new manager....

The club didn't help itself with failing to file for Adrien Silva in time to play before January, and losing Drinkwater hasn't helped either..


----------



## Savant

Also posted in WC Thread:

Senegal has called up Sadio Mane, who is supposed to be out at least another month, to their next match in on November 10. Senegal’s manager thinks he is healthy. 

Senegal coach Aliou Cisse: "Sadio Mane has resumed individual training and will probably resume full training next week."

All the meanwhile Liverpool has stated his BEST case scenario would be the Chelsea game on November 25th.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Seems to be a good amount of stuff that Poch will be revealing in his biography written by Guillem Balague. Personal I think writing a biography on him now seems very weird. Especially when many players mentioned are still on the team. At least ten years too early. Some stuff revealed by excerpts are Walker's transfer request and former fiction between Poch and Dier regarding his preferred position and interest from Mourinho.


----------



## BKIslandersFan

Me being a West Ham fan right now


----------



## hatterson

Shouldn't really be a surprise given their start, but Koeman was sacked.

David Unsworth will be the interim manager, being promoted from their U23 squad.

Early rumors have Sean Dyche linked as the favorite although there's lots of other names being floated like Tuchel, Moyes, Ancelotti.


----------



## Jussi

Jones fit for Saturday's game so no more freebees from Lindelöf.


----------



## Corto

Evilo said:


> I don't think Salah is world class, although a very very good player.




Salah is a top player. Serie A guys (apart from Juve players) tend to be underrated. Salah, Perisic, Allan, Jorginho... People don't realize how good they are.

Salah is definitely playing top quality football for LFC so far and was doing the same in Rome.

I guess the definition of world class can vary, but he's world class as far as I'm concerned.
Liverpool fans are only going to be happier with the signing as time goes by.


----------



## Evilo

My definition is top 10 at his position. I don't think Salah is a top 10 AM.
And look at the guys you named : all failed at other clubs.
Serie A guys are not underrated, they're rated properly. Icardi for instance is a fantastic striker, something I've claimed for years here. Salah is a very good player, but not WC.


----------



## YNWA14

Can you name 10 better RWs than Salah?


----------



## Evilo

I can name ten better AM. Yes.


----------



## Tryamkin

Tuchel supposed to be the favourite for Everton gig. He’s a tactical genius so I can see that going over well.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Tryamkin said:


> Tuchel supposed to be the favourite for Everton gig. He’s a tactical genius so I can see that going over well.




I just don't see it happening.


----------



## Tryamkin

TopKex said:


> I just don't see it happening.



I didn’t see Klopp to Kopp happening so who knows I guess. After his success with Liverpool fans I can see more of it happening in the PL.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Tryamkin said:


> I didn’t see Klopp to Kopp happening so who knows I guess. After his success with Liverpool fans I can see more of it happening in the PL.



The question is if Tuchel wants Everton, not if Everton wants Tuchel. That would be obvious IMO.


----------



## Tryamkin

TopKex said:


> The question is if Tuchel wants Everton, not if Everton wants Tuchel. That would be obvious IMO.



Yeah but what I mean is I think with the success Klopp has had transferring into the English Market with roaring support, it would make it a little easier for him, no? I feel he would be a little more welcomed.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Tryamkin said:


> Yeah but what I mean is I think with the success Klopp has had transferring into the English Market with roaring support, it would make it a little easier for him, no? I feel he would be a little more welcomed.




I see. If it really were to happen, it would probably just be a stopgap job for him to steer ship, until next summer when a larger club comes calling.


----------



## Tryamkin

TopKex said:


> I see. If it really were to happen, it would probably just be a stopgap job for him to steer ship, until next summer when a larger club comes calling.



Oh yeah, not long term that’s for sure. Taking a team from relegation zone to Top 8 would be an impressive resume boost.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Poch confirms that Kane is out against United.


----------



## Havre

The big question is - is Salah generational? 

Annoying that he wasn't subbed earlier against Pool (Kane that is). I guess Pochettino wanted to give him an opportunity to get a hattrick. Really no other reason for him to play until the 88th minute.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

TopKex said:


> Poch confirms that Kane is out against United.




Damn it, Poch. Keeping Kane in to try to get a hat trick caused this.


----------



## Cassano




----------



## S E P H

So, AGM showed how much of a ****ing **** Chip Keswick is.

Then you have FK who's one of the most intelligent Gooners saying that Arsenal were ready and wanting to buy Griezmann, but the Arsenal board ****ing said no to the deal. I give Wenger a lot of criticism here and some of it is just, but he's wanting the players to make this team better. I can't fault him for that, it's like when Arsenal couldn't buy Lemar in the summer because they supposedly didn't have the funds, but will randomly buy him after selling Sanchez and Ox. For a team that has a treasure chest of funds from all the CL groups stages we've made, why is this team on an internal budget? I mean the Arsenal, one of the richest clubs which doesn't even need Kroenke's own personal money has an internal budget....


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## YNWA14

https://www.whoscored.com/Articles/...oe-Gomez-in-Premier-League-team-of-the-season

I wonder how objective people have been about his performances. Was great for England I hear.


----------



## Savant

I think when Gomez has been good he has been excellent. But when he has been poor he is a train wreck. 

That being said he is a very young player who is a year removed from some bad knee injuries. I don’t think he stays at right back though.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Well, Gomez has been quite good in a lot of games. But I can also mention at least three large mistakes he has made that made Liverpool concede a goal, without putting much thought into it. His defending when Lanzini scored last week was one of the most pathetic things ever. Whoscored ratings mean close to nothing to me.


----------



## YNWA14

Individual mistakes are normal in a young player's game. The whole body of work has been great especially for a player his age playing in a system that is very hard on defenders.


----------



## Savant

Mike Dean is officiating Arsenal v Tottenham. 

My body is ready.


----------



## Burner Account

Clyne had back surgery today. Three more months.


----------



## chasespace

spintheblackcircle said:


>





Arsenal need a technical director...


----------



## Savant

kyle evs48 said:


> Clyne had back surgery today. Three more months.



If Clyne is out that long they really ne d to get a CB in January, as they will need Gomez at RB. 

(They probably won’t get one)


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Well, he's not wrong TECHNICALLY....


----------



## chasespace

spintheblackcircle said:


> Well, he's not wrong TECHNICALLY....





Everyone knows what he means but saying something as generic as that makes it way too easy to get roasted


----------



## robertmac43

Is Iwobi's brace with Nigeria enough to warrant him a start in the North London derby?


----------



## VEGASKING

The bigger the match the more baffling Wenger's decisions are on who plays so anything is possible.


----------



## Evilo

Lacazette was good enough to score two on Germany, but not start for Arsenal.


----------



## Cassano

robertmac43 said:


> Is Iwobi's brace with Nigeria enough to warrant him a start in the North London derby?



He should.

Don't want to see Alexis play another minute for the club.



Evilo said:


> Lacazette was good enough to score two on Germany, but not start for Arsenal.




Same with France. Won't start in meaningful matches for France as long as Giroud + Deschamps are still here. 

Maybe the player is the issue.


----------



## chasespace

How I would line Arsenal up Saturday

Lacazette - Giroud
Sanchez - Ozil - Iwobi
Kola(WB) - Ramsay - Bellerin(WB)
Monreal - Holding
Cech

Just run right at them


----------



## Evilo

All Might said:


> He should.
> 
> Don't want to see Alexis play another minute for the club.
> 
> 
> 
> Same with France. Won't start in meaningful matches for France as long as Giroud + Deschamps are still here.
> 
> Maybe the player is the issue.



That's partly because there are similar types of players but no big body like Giroud.
That and DD's bias.
No issue with Lacazette besides scoring in big games.


----------



## robertmac43

chasespace said:


> How I would line Arsenal up Saturday
> 
> Lacazette - Giroud
> Sanchez - Ozil - Iwobi
> Kola(WB) - Ramsay - Bellerin(WB)
> Monreal - Holding
> Cech
> 
> Just run right at them




This formation would be a sight to be seen.....but Spurs would rip right through it.


----------



## chasespace

robertmac43 said:


> This formation would be a sight to be seen.....but Spurs would rip right through it.




Probably, but after the way we've been shredded by teams we're "competing" against(Liverpool, Citeh) I'd rather they try to actually get in their faces instead of playing counter football and being dragged all over the field and cut open.


----------



## themightyquinn

North London is ours. 3-1 Spurs. 

Kane hat trick then running the length of the pitch like Henry did at WHL and doing a knee slide in front of the home supporters while kissing the badge.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Alderweireld expected to be out until after christmas. Swell.

Should give him plenty of time to negotiate a new contract though.


----------



## Havre

To me it looked like a bad tear - was shocked when they were talking about him returning after the international break. Not suggesting I know these things from watching it happen on TV, but it looked like a classic 6-8 weeks tear.

As long as the rest stay fit I'm not sure if this will hurt Spurs that much. Alderweireld has been the best CD for the last 2 years, but he has not been as solid this year as the two years before. He has actually looked a bit tired. Might even benefit Spurs longer term if he gets back well rested in January.

Also pushing Sanchez out to the right actually benefits Spurs IMO. Vertonghen - Dier - Sanchez isn't much worse than Vertonghen - Sanchez - Alderweireld with Sanchez and Alderweireld, IMO, playing out of position. The biggest issue is Dier falling asleep like he did against Utd. And it means either Dembele or Wanyama really have to get fit soon (looks like Dembele is getting closer to some sort of match fitness at least).


----------



## Jussi

Zlatan possibly on the bench already on Saturday.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Jussi said:


> Zlatan possibly on the bench already on Saturday.




Zlatan, Pogba and Rojo could all feature this weekend.

Can't imagine Zlatan is going to be effective for awhile though. He's old, coming off an ACL tear. Hopefully he's ready to play a role off the bench.


----------



## hatterson

East Coast Bias said:


> Can't imagine Zlatan is going to be effective for awhile though. He's old, coming off an ACL tear. Hopefully he's ready to play a role off the bench.




On the other hand, he's Zlatan and it's always a bad idea to bet on him not being up for something


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Erik Lamela started for the U23's today.


----------



## bluesfan94

spintheblackcircle said:


> Well, he's not wrong TECHNICALLY....




Look at that. You were right for the wrong reasons.


----------



## Cassano

themightyquinn said:


> North London is ours. 3-1 Spurs.
> 
> Kane hat trick then running the length of the pitch like Henry did at WHL and doing a knee slide in front of the home supporters while kissing the badge.



Lol.


----------



## chasespace

themightyquinn said:


> North London is ours. 3-1 Spurs.
> 
> Kane hat trick then running the length of the pitch like Henry did at WHL and doing a knee slide in front of the home supporters while kissing the badge.




This did not age well


----------



## Stray Wasp

PCP Capital Partners have bid £300 million for Newcastle United, reports Ashley's telly collaborators.

Newcastle receive £300m bid from Amanda Staveley

As ever, it's the hope that kills you.


----------



## njdevsfn95

If any of the stipulations being reported are true (i.e. The relegation clause), then Ashley should have rejected it and that's the case even if the valuation was acceptable.

If they are going to pay in installments, putting in a lower payment for that season (then increasing upon promotion) is a different story.

The number of people freaking out over a low initial bid and subsequent rejection are being unrealistic. There is a willing buyer and willing seller (it seems) and as long as that's the case let the negotiations continue.


----------



## Stray Wasp

njdevsfn95 said:


> If any of the stipulations being reported are true (i.e. The relegation clause), then Ashley should have rejected it and that's the case even if the valuation was acceptable.
> 
> If they are going to pay in installments, putting in a lower payment for that season (then increasing upon promotion) is a different story.
> 
> The number of people freaking out over a low initial bid and subsequent rejection are being unrealistic. There is a willing buyer and willing seller (it seems) and as long as that's the case let the negotiations continue.




Indeed.

I suspect matters are complicated by Ashley's need to reconcile his greed, his fear and his ego.

I imagine that Ashley can't abide the thought that someone else might do a better job running NUFC than him, casting a still more dismal light on his own failures.

I reckon he aspires to sell the club to a someone who knows nothing at all about football, is too fuelled by hubris to bother with due diligence, and in consequence doesn't realise the club's true price tag. Finding such a candidate would allow him to rip them off and gloat afterwards about how clever he's been, satisfying his self-image as a maverick who always confounds the experts to win big.

In other words, he's wanting to sell the club to himself as he was in 2007. Which isn't a viable proposition.

I have this dream that the whole scenario will play out like that great British film The Long Good Friday, with Ashley in the Bob Hoskins role as the oik made good who finds himself faced with forces far too strong and nasty for him.

But that returns me to the point about hope being dangerous.


----------



## maclean

East Coast Bias said:


> Can't imagine Zlatan is going to be effective for awhile though. He's old, coming off an ACL tear. Hopefully he's ready to play a role off the bench.




To believe Zlatan, it was more than just an ACL tear and we would be "shocked" if we knew the full extent of his injury


----------



## Hadoop

What the heck is going on at Everton this season? They were the best 'non big-6' team in the PL last year, yet some of their losses this season have been downright embarrassing.


----------



## Theokritos

Any bets for West Ham vs Everton? (Beyond "both teams will concede goals".)


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Theokritos said:


> Any bets for West Ham vs Everton? (Beyond "both teams will concede goals".)



Pain and suffering.


----------



## Hadoop

Jersey Fresh said:


> Pain and suffering.




I lol'ed at this.


----------



## Scouter

No one talking PL anymore?

West Ham just beat Chelsea, wow.


----------



## maclean

Scouter said:


> No one talking PL anymore?
> 
> West Ham just beat Chelsea, wow.




There's a stickied thread at the top for the week's PL games.

But yeah, Conte conceded the title after the loss. Moyes righting the ship


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

maclean said:


> But yeah, Conte conceded the title after the loss. Moyes righting the ship




According to Conte he didn't concede anything:



Quite confident that he'll be leaving on his own initiative within a year.


----------



## YNWA14

Chelsea's manager turnover is a bit wild for me considering they've been a relatively successful team for a while now.


----------



## SJSharks72

So apparently after the game Mourinho stormed the locker room of City. As a United fan, f*** this guy. I understand he did a lot for us and has been good for us but I’m sick of his antics. He should be gone if this turns out to be true. Then United should bring in Tuchel or Blanc.


----------



## maclean

SJSharks39 said:


> So apparently after the game Mourinho stormed the locker room of City. As a United fan, **** this guy. I understand he did a lot for us and has been good for us but I’m sick of his antics. He should be gone if this turns out to be true. Then United should bring in Tuchel or Blanc.




Apparently he went to tell them to "be respectful and turn their music down"    

And when all that was over went to visit the referee to complain some more about some of the calls...


----------



## SJSharks72

maclean said:


> Apparently he went to tell them to "be respectful and turn their music down"
> 
> And when all that was over went to visit the referee to complain some more about some of the calls...



I personally didn’t watch the game. I was at work for pretty much all of it. On the other side of that though, there is no reason for anyone to enter the opposing teams locker room. ESPECIALLY not the manager. I don’t care how loud their music is or how bad the calls were.


----------



## les Habs

So Mourinho pulls that and nobody has anything to say about it? Where are all the Ms Manners that were all over Victor Valdes?


----------



## maclean

Well, you know in these things you have to look at both sides. You have to look at both sides. Sure, he went charging into their dressing room swearing and insulting them, but like, what about them? They were playing their music really loud, why's nobody talking about that?


....


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

les Habs said:


> So Mourinho pulls that and nobody has anything to say about it? Where are all the Ms Manners that were all over Victor Valdes?




We already briefly discussed it in the matchday thread.


----------



## Savant

Mohamed Salah is the 2017 African Player of the Year!


----------



## East Coast Bias

les Habs said:


> So Mourinho pulls that and nobody has anything to say about it? Where are all the Ms Manners that were all over Victor Valdes?




He's just passionate like Klopp and Pep. That's all.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Daniel Levy stated at a fan forum yesterday that he is confident that the club and Alderweireld are going to reach an agreement.


----------



## les Habs

Big Kahuna said:


> We already briefly discussed it in the matchday thread.




Yeah, very briefly, and the hypocrites who screamed "bloody murder" over Valdes didn't have anything to say.



East Coast Bias said:


> He's just passionate like Klopp and Pep. That's all.




LOL, right.


----------



## Hadoop

The gap is 13 points now over a clearly less talented Man U squad so might as well call it now. Congrats to Man City on basically winning the league before Christmas (with the win today fivethirtyeight.com now gives them a 98% chance of the EPL title). They've been absolutely devastating this season and the results speak for themselves. Would be a fool not to pick them to go deep in the CL as well.


----------



## njdevsfn95

Do not fret, they'll fall back to earth at St James' Park.


----------



## Evilo

When Wenger starts Sanchez+Lacazette+Ozil, Arsenal's record is 5W, 2 ties, 1L (and that loss was that highway robbery by United).
If Wenger doesn't start all 3 together, their record is 5-2-4.


----------



## Burner Account

Not sure if anyone saw this, but hoo boy.

Bienvenue à Burnley, au coeur de l'équipe surprise du championnat anglais


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Racist journalist calling Burnley racist.


----------



## YNWA14

kyle evs48 said:


> Not sure if anyone saw this, but hoo boy.
> 
> Bienvenue à Burnley, au coeur de l'équipe surprise du championnat anglais



Paywall for me, but is it trying to say that Burnley is a racist club because all their players are white?


----------



## Burner Account

Curtinho said:


> Paywall for me, but is it trying to say that Burnley is a racist club because all their players are white?



From Reddit:

L'Equipe describes Burnley as a 100% white team with players with flattened noses and big ears, coached by a ginger english-man, in a city who voted 70% for Brexit and which has been the breeding ground of racial tensions.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

From what I'm gleaning/hoping (based on the first few paragraphs before the paywall), it seems to be more a sociopolitical reflection on how the composition of the team reflects contemporary Burnley as a community, as opposed to suggesting that Burnley FC is racist because all its players are white. 



> a team that resembles the town


----------



## Evilo

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> From what I'm gleaning/hoping (based on the first few paragraphs before the paywall), it seems to be more a sociopolitical reflection on how the composition of the team reflects contemporary Burnley as a community, as opposed to suggesting that Burnley FC is racist because all its players are white.



No kidding...
It's Vincent Duluc writing here. I don't always agree with him, but he's one of the best writer in the sporting world.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

It's a stupid article and unsurprisingly written by some wannabe French intellectual.


----------



## Stray Wasp

I haven't read this L'Equipe article in full because of the paywall. But I am curious to know more about it.

Does the journalist attach significance to Dyche having red hair? Gingers are a much-mocked bunch of people in England. If anything, traditionally red hair was a feature associated with 'otherness'- the Celtic fringe, particularly the Scots and Irish.

I'd observe that trying to read too much into the composition of Burnley's team is perilous, given that in order to reach the EPL in the first place they broke their club transfer record to sign a black striker (Andre Gray).

Mind, Gray isn't around any more. Maybe he was sold because Sean Dyche sleeps in swastika-patterned pyjamas. Maybe it was because Watford offered £18 million for Gray, whose contract had less than twelve months to run. Maybe it was because the club is awash with bleeding-heart liberals who abhorred Gray's homophobic past.

(Mentioning liberalism, one recalls that between 2010 and 2015, Burnley was represented in the House of Commons by a Liberal Democrat- that is to say, a member of a party caricatured by its opponents as being blindly pro-EU and relentless in its political right-on ness. What happened between May 2015 and June 2016 to sway the hearts and possibly even minds of the good folk of Burnley? Who can say? Perhaps exposure to the Premier League propels you to the political right.)

Years ago, when I still lived in the North East, I used to delight in inflicting the following spiel on anyone who didn't flee fast enough:

'The London media like to imagine the club that best represents their city is Arsenal- cosmopolitan, multiracial, aesthetically pleasing, and progressive. But London's true ambassadors should be Chelsea- functional, ruthless, heavily dependent on foreign labour, and propped up by foreign capital of dubious origin.'

Jealousy? What else? Imagine the shame we Newcastle fans feel, knowing our club is owned by someone who merely uses sweat-shop labour abroad, while using zero-hour contracts and flouting minimum wage laws at home. How I'll rejoice if the club is finally taken over by people with genuine human blood on their hands! 

Unless I've missed something, it strikes me that the Premier League is pretty much the sporting PR wing for global gangster capitalist values, so to single out any individual club for criticism for failing to keep the humanist fires burning would rather miss the point.


----------



## Evilo

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> It's a stupid article and unsurprisingly written by some wannabe French intellectual.



I find it amazing that you constantly show your xenophobia towards anything french and yet you are a subscriber to L'Equipe's paying option.
That's quite hypocritical.

Or maybe you just didn't read the article, which would make you a dumbass to comment on something you haven't even read.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

If one knows where to look one can find the whole article online. I could post a translation here but I'm afraid it is against the rules to re-post material from behind paywalls.

The article is lazy and stupid. It would just be a bland recounting of the fact that Burnley are the surprise team of the year, a little bit of history on the club, some quotes from the team captain, some commentary on the manager (poorly researched at that, Chesterfield was in the FA Cup semifinal in 1997 not 1987 as the article says). The kind of blurb you might find on a random sports website. If it wasn't for the fact that it was 'enriched' with a bunch of stereotypes about the provincial English while written in as condescending a way as possible. The points about race and Brexit are pointless, they serve no wider role in the article other than to make it clear that we - the author and his readers - are supposed to look down on Burnley as a club and town.

30 odd years ago you may have seen articles written this way about African footballers, but it's difficult to imagine anyone today giving us their colorful impressions of the physique of Africans the way Duluc explores the supposed looks of Brits.

A serious and intelligent article perhaps would have explored the miracle that is Burnley being in the Premiership in the first place. A club from a small city that's been economically troubled for decades. No Red Bull, no sheikhs or Russian oligarchs in sight. What money there is comes from local businessmen. Burnley are perhaps unique among the rich man's toys and foreign investment holdings that can be found in the Premier League and investigating that is fine and could be the backbone of a solid article.

But almost everything that Duluc sneers at could also be seen as admirable and something to be emulated by other clubs. Duluc's negativity is solely based on prejudice and his own bias. While Duluc does not have to write positively about Burnley, we should be able to expect him to write fairly about them. He fails on that count in such a significant way that it's fair to conclude he's a bit of a knobhead.


----------



## YNWA14

EPL xG Table and Scorers for the 2017/2018 season | Understat.com

I know it's not the end all be all but it's certainly interesting that, based on how games have unfolded, Liverpool would be expected to be in 2nd.


----------



## Live in the Now

Curtinho said:


> EPL xG Table and Scorers for the 2017/2018 season | Understat.com
> 
> I know it's not the end all be all but it's certainly interesting that, based on how games have unfolded, Liverpool would be expected to be in 2nd.




Still think Liverpool will finish there or 3rd. They have the second best finisher in the league and just made a big improvement in defense. Also been really effective against parked buses this season.


----------



## Hadoop

I have Liverpool finishing in the 2-4 range based on their offensive consistency this seasonn and VvD's pending arrival.


----------



## Stray Wasp

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> If one knows where to look one can find the whole article online. I could post a translation here but I'm afraid it is against the rules to re-post material from behind paywalls.
> 
> The article is lazy and stupid. It would just be a bland recounting of the fact that Burnley are the surprise team of the year, a little bit of history on the club, some quotes from the team captain, some commentary on the manager (poorly researched at that, Chesterfield was in the FA Cup semifinal in 1997 not 1987 as the article says). The kind of blurb you might find on a random sports website. If it wasn't for the fact that it was 'enriched' with a bunch of stereotypes about the provincial English while written in as condescending a way as possible. The points about race and Brexit are pointless, they serve no wider role in the article other than to make it clear that we - the author and his readers - are supposed to look down on Burnley as a club and town.
> 
> 30 odd years ago you may have seen articles written this way about African footballers, but it's difficult to imagine anyone today giving us their colorful impressions of the physique of Africans the way Duluc explores the supposed looks of Brits.
> 
> A serious and intelligent article perhaps would have explored the miracle that is Burnley being in the Premiership in the first place. A club from a small city that's been economically troubled for decades. No Red Bull, no sheikhs or Russian oligarchs in sight. What money there is comes from local businessmen. Burnley are perhaps unique among the rich man's toys and foreign investment holdings that can be found in the Premier League and investigating that is fine and could be the backbone of a solid article.
> 
> But almost everything that Duluc sneers at could also be seen as admirable and something to be emulated by other clubs. Duluc's negativity is solely based on prejudice and his own bias. While Duluc does not have to write positively about Burnley, we should be able to expect him to write fairly about them. He fails on that count in such a significant way that it's fair to conclude he's a bit of a knobhead.




I was ignorant of the rules about quoting stuff from behind paywalls, so much obliged for the summary.

It bears mentioning that a similar-themed article appeared in the Independent newspaper on 22 December 2017. I believe anyone can access the link below.

Burnley, Brexit and Britishness: how a club represents society's split

I know the site is queasy about politics (for understandable reasons), but I beg the mods' indulgence to make one point. You'd never guess from the above article- or indeed from UK media coverage in general- that the traditional power base of anti-EU sentiment in the country was southern England. Indeed, I wonder how many articles about Southampton mention the club represents a city that voted to leave the EU by a 7.5 point margin?


----------



## YNWA14

Live in the Now said:


> Still think Liverpool will finish there or 3rd. They have the second best finisher in the league and just made a big improvement in defense. Also been really effective against parked buses this season.



Yeah, I think I had them 3rd before the season started but I don't think 2nd is out of the question. They've really improved against defensive teams, and with van Dijk coming in as well as our obvious depth I can see a strong 2nd half.


----------



## Luigi Habs

So who’s your top 3 players so far this season?

Mine looks like this 

1- Salah
2- De Bruyne
3- De Gea


----------



## YNWA14

Luigi Habs said:


> So who’s your top 3 players so far this season?
> 
> Mine looks like this
> 
> 1- Salah
> 2- De Bruyne
> 3- De Gea




It's so hard.

Like...I think Salah's start has been ridiculous, but he's doing what a poacher should. He's really important in the sense that we need that player who can finish and get into goal scoring positions consistently, but Firmino has been more important to our overall play and has been lights out this season. I can't really decide which of those two I'd say has been Liverpool's best player.

With that in mind I think KdB is much easier to pick out as City's standout -- though an honorable mention has to go to Sterling who has been immense, and has won them a ton of points on his own.

Then there's Kane, who is doing what Kane does. If you credit Salah how do you not credit Kane? Kane is probably more involved in other aspects of the game than scoring between the two as well.

Soooo with that in mind...

1. Kevin de Bruyne
2. Harry Kane
3. Roberto Firmino/Mohammed Salah

For now.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

1. KDB
2. Kane
3. Salah


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

It's so crazy to me that we could have a season in which the leading scorer is at 18 goals in 19 games and he not be indisputably player of the season. And yet, here we are. It's _easily _been Kevin de Bruyne. I'm not gonna do an explicit ranking, but I'll do the top six (i.e. the amount of finalists for player of the year). 

KdB, Salah, Kane, de Gea, David Silva, Hazard.


----------



## hatterson

Curtinho said:


> EPL xG Table and Scorers for the 2017/2018 season | Understat.com
> 
> I know it's not the end all be all but it's certainly interesting that, based on how games have unfolded, Liverpool would be expected to be in 2nd.




Just a reminder xG seems to essentially ignore goalkeeper quality, hence why United has been consistently lower than their xGA and Liverpool consistently higher.

It also seems to ignore finishing quality as the large majority of tops teams are above their xGF every season.


----------



## Luigi Habs

Lmao I don't know i forgot Kane.

My top 3 re-visited

1-Salah
2- Kane
3- KDB


----------



## Live in the Now

Curtinho said:


> Then there's Kane, who is doing what Kane does. If you credit Salah how do you not credit Kane? Kane is probably more involved in other aspects of the game than scoring between the two as well.




Salah has five assists in the league.

Kane has one.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Live in the Now said:


> Salah has five assists in the league.
> 
> Kane has one.




Can Kane hit that final pass? Most likely not. However he works his butt off, often tracks back very deep and is near essential to Spurs build-up play (not saying that Salah does none of this).


----------



## Savant

hatterson said:


> Just a reminder xG seems to essentially ignore goalkeeper quality, hence why United has been consistently lower than their xGA and Liverpool consistently higher.
> 
> It also seems to ignore finishing quality as the large majority of tops teams are above their xGF every season.



To me xG is an efficiency measure more than anything else.


----------



## YNWA14

Live in the Now said:


> Salah has five assists in the league.
> 
> Kane has one.



Yeah but if you look at Salah's assists it's not like they're amazing for the most part. Often enough they're just a lay off for a tap in on an odd man counter or a cutback.

Kane participates more in the buildup and works harder against the ball.


----------



## Prntscrn

Salah out for atleast two weeks with a knee injury. Time for Mane to step up again


----------



## Live in the Now

So if anyone thought Cou was leaving well clearly not. At least Salah wasn't going to play tomorrow anyway due to fixture congestion and that should be the only missed league game.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Here is an interesting look at Burnley. 

Burnley, Brexit and Britishness: how a club represents society's split

"The club has never signed a player from Asia or north Africa. Their only Latin American (goalkeeper Diego Penny) made just one league start a decade ago. Meanwhile, not a single Premier League minute this season has been played by a non-white footballer."

(since this article was written, Nahki Wells has played 2 matches)


----------



## bleedblue1223

spintheblackcircle said:


> Here is an interesting look at Burnley.
> 
> Burnley, Brexit and Britishness: how a club represents society's split
> 
> "The club has never signed a player from Asia or north Africa. Their only Latin American (goalkeeper Diego Penny) made just one league start a decade ago. Meanwhile, not a single Premier League minute this season has been played by a non-white footballer."
> 
> (since this article was written, Nahki Wells has played 2 matches)




How many clubs are like this in Europe, I know of the Basque policy in Spain, but I am curious how many clubs value cultureish characteristics on how a player develops.


----------



## Savant

Ragnar Klavan is the first Estonian to score a PL goal. Estonia is the 97th nation to score in the league.


----------



## couture23

I'm a bit biased as a Liverpool fan, but I think Salah is the clear favourite for EPL POTY so far.

De Bruyne would be right behind him, and then you can select a number of players from Kane, Silva, or even dare I say Raheem Sterling?

Also, how comically bad were Morata's misses yesterday?


----------



## hatterson

Why is Salah clearly ahead of Kane?


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

spintheblackcircle said:


> Here is an interesting look at Burnley.
> 
> Burnley, Brexit and Britishness: how a club represents society's split
> 
> "The club has never signed a player from Asia or north Africa. Their only Latin American (goalkeeper Diego Penny) made just one league start a decade ago. Meanwhile, not a single Premier League minute this season has been played by a non-white footballer."
> 
> (since this article was written, Nahki Wells has played 2 matches)




A lot of this article was lifted by the French writer but this article is fairer, probably because it was written by someone with a bit more knowledge about the situation and less of a hyper-negative view of the British.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

> Wenger was Weah's manager at French side Monaco between 1988 and 1992 but he is not sure he will able to attend.
> "I have been invited by George to come to the day where he will be the President," he said.
> "I believe I will be busy but if I am suspended (for his comments on referees) I will have time to go."


----------



## maclean

Wenger banned for three games for the W.Brom match, going into refs' dressing room and swearing at them. ...Anybody know whatever happened with Mourinho's antics?


----------



## Savant

maclean said:


> Wenger banned for three games for the W.Brom match, going into refs' dressing room and swearing at them. ...Anybody know whatever happened with Mourinho's antics?



It’s cool. He can go see George Weah now


----------



## maclean

Savant said:


> It’s cool. He can go see George Weah now




I mean if I were him I'd definitely rather go see Weah get inaugurated than watch his team drop more points


----------



## Savant

maclean said:


> I mean if I were him I'd definitely rather go see Weah get inaugurated then watch his team drop more points



I hear Liberia is nice this time of year


----------



## maclean

Savant said:


> I hear Liberia is nice this time of year




If by "this time of year" you mean "anytime there's not a civil war on", then yeah, for sure


----------



## Live in the Now

Conte made comments about Mourinho having dementia, and Mourinho has responded by bringing up Conte's match fixing.


----------



## Chimaera

I’m enjoying that but also glad that Liverpool are not involved in that show


----------



## Jersey Fresh

I think Mourinho's original comment was referencing Klopp too. Saying they reacted like clowns on the touchline, but he never named names.


----------



## maclean

Jersey Fresh said:


> I think Mourinho's original comment was referencing Klopp too. Saying they reacted like clowns on the touchline, but he never named names.




Mourinho calling someone a clown, that's rich


----------



## Savant

maclean said:


> Mourinho calling someone a clown, that's rich



Mourinho wants your negative attention.


----------



## Evilo

Yes, Conte and Klopp especially are all theatrics on the sidelines.
Yes, Mourinho is senile.

But I did lol at the match fixing line.


----------



## Cassano

Jersey Fresh said:


> I think Mourinho's original comment was referencing Klopp too. Saying they reacted like clowns on the touchline, but he never named names.


----------



## maclean

Savant said:


> Mourinho wants your negative attention.




I meant to post this in this thread but posted it in the Rnd 22 thread instead:
José Mourinho’s living hell: everything he does magnifies Guardiola’s success | Barney Ronay


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

I gotta admit, the match-fixing line was very funny. I love Conte's touchline theatrics though, I'll take that over stoicism on the bench.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

You calling coaches over their actions on the touchlines is hilarious. This guy really lives in an alternate reality. Miss him at Madrid not going to lie.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

I don't think Mourinho's ego can handle the PL anymore because of City/Pep.


----------



## Theon

spintheblackcircle said:


>





Meh response. Jose's reply to this will be 10 times more hilarious.

Funny that Conte calls Jose a little man for offending and insulting people given his "senile dementia" comments a week ago.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Theon said:


> Meh response. Jose's reply to this will be 10 times more hilarious.
> 
> Funny that Conte calls Jose a little man for offending and insulting people given his "senile dementia" comments a week ago.



Which were in response to Mourinho's unsolicited comments prior...

I do agree that there's a point where the theatrics are completely stupid and both Klopp and Conte straddle that line (and of course so has Mourinho). The barbs back and forth are great, though. With Mourinho it's better because it's coming from a place of total insecurity.


----------



## Theon

Hardly unsolicited. Pretty sure it all began when Conte started the season by making the "avoiding a Mourinho season" comments. It's been back and forth since then.


----------



## phisherman

Funny how anyone defends Mourinho on anything. He's always wrong.


----------



## Cassano

phisherman said:


> Funny how anyone defends Mourinho on anything. He's always wrong.



True, but Conte's response insults are nothing in comparison to the fire Mourinho just laid out with the match-fixing comments lol.


----------



## Evilo

No, as I said, he's absolutely true about Klopp especially. Klopp tires me with his sideline act. Way too much ego in there.
And of course, his match-fixing game line was epic (and true).

But he's still a giant asshole who has absolutely redefined the word hypocrite.


----------



## les Habs

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> You calling coaches over their actions on the touchlines is hilarious. This guy really lives in an alternate reality. Miss him at Madrid not going to lie.




As do I. If only he were at Madrid and Pep was at Barça again. 



phisherman said:


> Funny how anyone defends Mourinho on anything. He's always wrong.




Some supporters will back anything and everything about their club. Thing with Mourinho is he already has a proven track record and yet some United supporters defend him. Bad enough a lot of them welcomed them with open arms. Was watching BTSport's post match and the new thing (surely thanks to ArsenalFanTV) is to have the supporters on and some United supporter's commentary was something along the lines of "Jose needs some signings and I want to hear who the panel thinks should go and who should come in." Nothing about Mourinho and his tactics or selection. Just get rid of players and bring new players in as if that'll solve their problems.


----------



## YNWA14

Evilo said:


> No, as I said, he's absolutely true about Klopp especially. Klopp tires me with his sideline act. Way too much ego in there.


----------



## les Habs

Things are getting interesting between Conte and Little Man.


----------



## hatterson

Theon said:


> Hardly unsolicited. Pretty sure it all began when Conte started the season by making the "avoiding a Mourinho season" comments. It's been back and forth since then.




It started before then, although last season it was more of a typical back and forth between rival managers. Talking about how they set up their teams, etc.

Conte complaining Mourinho just wanted to foul Hazard, Mourinho doing the backhanded compliment of saying Conte’s team is really good at absorbing pressure and counter attacking. Although given how Mourinho manages, that may have been a real compliment.


----------



## East Coast Bias

The funniest part is the outrage of the English media of him now. Spent years under his desk. They created him. Now he’s the devil. When arguably his behavior has improved.


----------



## bleedblue1223

So, Holgate might be getting suspended for a few tweets he sent as a 15/16 year old. The tweets themselves, while they don't age well, they just simply show an immature teenage boy joking around, nothing hateful in them.

What the hell is going on, that's ridiculous. Not sure who looks worse, the FA or Liverpool fans for digging this up and the Gray tweets up. I can at least understanding why Gray was suspended, even if I didn't agree with it.


----------



## hatterson

Suspending a guy now for tweets he sent 5-6 years ago is idiotic.


----------



## YNWA14

bleedblue1223 said:


> So, Holgate might be getting suspended for a few tweets he sent as a 15/16 year old. The tweets themselves, while they don't age well, they just simply show an immature teenage boy joking around, nothing hateful in them.
> 
> What the hell is going on, that's ridiculous. Not sure who looks worse, the FA or Liverpool fans for digging this up and the Gray tweets up. I can at least understanding why Gray was suspended, even if I didn't agree with it.



It's probably been dug up because people feel, and most evidence suggests, Holgate made up that Firmino said something racial after he pushed him into the stands dangerously.

Although I agree suspending someone for something they said years ago is pretty dumb. Especially at that age.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Curtinho said:


> It's probably been dug up because people feel, and most evidence suggests, Holgate made up that Firmino said something racial after he pushed him into the stands dangerously.
> 
> Although I agree suspending someone for something they said years ago is pretty dumb. Especially at that age.




It just looks bad on Liverpool fans because this is the 2nd time that they've done this. It's just such a silly thing to do. What place does a person have to be in to dig that hard to find dirt on someone that doesn't impact your life in anyway. 

Maybe I shouldn't say it reflects poorly on Liverpool fans, just for that person(s) that dug up those tweets.


----------



## East Coast Bias

My wife is going to be in London with some friends the weekend of Feb 9/10/11th and I'm trying to get her to go to a match, any match really. Looks like West Ham is the closest to where shes staying (Canarie Warf). What's the best way to go about getting tickets?


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

15 years ago we all wondered how it would be one day when everyone has an online history of saying and doing embarrassing stuff with the evidence plastered all over the internet. Now we are starting to move into this age and it seems like the general rule of thumb is that if you stay in your lane and are irrelevant it will generally be ignored, but if you happen to do something with your life and/or make any sort of enemies it will be found and used against you.


----------



## YNWA14

Oxlade-Chamberlain confident Coutinho loss won't affect Liverpool

Yes lad.

I wonder if people will stop worrying about Coutinho when we hand City their first loss of the season on the weekend.


----------



## Savant

Curtinho said:


> Oxlade-Chamberlain confident Coutinho loss won't affect Liverpool
> 
> Yes lad.
> 
> I wonder if people will stop worrying about Coutinho when we hand City their first loss of the season on the weekend.



It would certainly help!

I’m in California for work this weekend so I’m glad the game doesn’t start too early. And I get to check out a new supporters club.


----------



## YEM

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Now we are starting to move into this age and it seems like the general rule of thumb is that if you stay in your lane and are irrelevant it will generally be ignored, but if you happen to do something with your life and/or make any sort of enemies it will be found and used against you.



relevancy doesn't really matter
I work at an office where we've chosen not to hire about a half-dozen people over the last few years based on what they've done/posted on social media. Ever.


----------



## bleedblue1223

mmvvpp said:


> relevancy doesn't really matter
> I work at an office where we've chosen not to hire about a half-dozen people over the last few years based on what they've done/posted on social media. Ever.




Yeah, people still don't understand how much this stuff will affect them in the real-world. Internet courage will destroy your life.


----------



## Stray Wasp

East Coast Bias said:


> My wife is going to be in London with some friends the weekend of Feb 9/10/11th and I'm trying to get her to go to a match, any match really. Looks like West Ham is the closest to where shes staying (Canarie Warf). What's the best way to go about getting tickets?




When I visited Upton Park back in August 2015, I registered on the West Ham web site: Home | West Ham United and was able to buy tickets fairly easily through there.

Whether your missus would thank you for packing her off to Stratford for the afternoon is a moot point. I think it worth mentioning that I'm told Fulham lives up to its reputation as being a lovely place to watch football, and that neck of the woods is closer to the touristy areas.

(If they fancy the West End- and don't mind streams of foul language- I can recommend the production of Glengarry Glen Ross at the Playhouse theatre featuring Christian Slater).


----------



## East Coast Bias

Stray Wasp said:


> When I visited Upton Park back in August 2015, I registered on the West Ham web site: Home | West Ham United and was able to buy tickets fairly easily through there.
> 
> Whether your missus would thank you for packing her off to Stratford for the afternoon is a moot point. I think it worth mentioning that I'm told Fulham lives up to its reputation as being a lovely place to watch football, and that neck of the woods is closer to the touristy areas.
> 
> (If they fancy the West End- and don't mind streams of foul language- I can recommend the production of Glengarry Glen Ross at the Playhouse theatre featuring Christian Slater).




Thanks, I appreciate it. I've heard the same about Fulham. A few friends went over when Dempsey was there and loved it.


----------



## robertmac43

City - Liverpool predictions?


----------



## Live in the Now

robertmac43 said:


> City - Liverpool predictions?




1-1 draw.


----------



## Savant

robertmac43 said:


> City - Liverpool predictions?



4-2


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

I expect a big game from Keita and Lego.


----------



## Prntscrn

robertmac43 said:


> City - Liverpool predictions?




It's about time City lost. 3-1 Liverpool


----------



## Live in the Now

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> I expect a big game from Keita and Lego.




Pfft with them plus Lemar for sure 6-0 to Liverpool.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

n/m.


----------



## robertmac43

Been sitting on the Arsenal loss for a day now and man it still makes me so frustrated. Starting to become more paranoid that the perpetual mediocrity is going to continue year in and year out until us fans will be celebrating a mid-table finish....


----------



## Machinehead




----------



## Machinehead

robertmac43 said:


> Been sitting on the Arsenal loss for a day now and man it still makes me so frustrated. Starting to become more paranoid that the perpetual mediocrity is going to continue year in and year out until us fans will be celebrating a mid-table finish....




Worth it for this



Can't wait for the gif so I can use it in Rangers GDT's


----------



## robertmac43

Machinehead said:


> Worth it for this
> 
> 
> 
> Can't wait for the gif so I can use it in Rangers GDT's





This just made my day!


----------



## JunglePete

Machinehead said:


>




Terrible night; A for the effort

Hopefully this will calm down a few hyping up Man City this year calling it best ever in EPL... Huge win for Liverpool, their next two PL games are easily winable.


----------



## robertmac43

Anyone have any upset predictions going into this weekend? Personally I would not be surprised to see Brighton pull off an upset at home against Chelsea.


----------



## Evilo

Flanagan was deemed guilty for assaulting his girlfriend.
Liverpool released a statement saying he wasn't up to the standards of the club and that they will file an internal investigation.

Thank god he didn't drive loaded....


----------



## YNWA14

Evilo said:


> Flanagan was deemed guilty for assaulting his girlfriend.
> Liverpool released a statement saying he wasn't up to the standards of the club and that they will file an internal investigation.
> 
> Thank god he didn't drive loaded....




So just to be clear you're comparing Firmino driving while intoxicated to Flanagan grabbing his girlfriend by the throat and slamming her against the wall, twice, and then kicking her in the stomach?

Wish I could say I was surprised.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Curtinho said:


> So just to be clear you're comparing Firmino driving while intoxicated to Flanagan grabbing his girlfriend by the throat and slamming her against the wall, twice, and then kicking her in the stomach?
> 
> Wish I could say I was surprised.




Obviously their's a difference, but anytime you drive drunk you are putting lives at risk. Whether you cause harm to others like Marcus Alonso or not like Firmino, it has to be taken seriously.

Now, Liverpool did punish him internally and kept it private. I respect that, as long as it wasn't just a PR stunt to act like they took it seriously.

What Flanagan did is absolutely disgusting, but we shouldn't be easier on Firmino just because the outcome was better than what it could have been. Punish the action not the result.


----------



## YNWA14

Right, but unfortunately the laws surrounding drinking and driving are not black and white. That they allow a certain level of blood alcohol (that Firmino was not over by that much) means they leave room for judgment on whether or not someone has drank too much and on top of it alcohol affects everyone differently so while the law is based on a specific percentage that actual level of intoxication is different for everyone. There are also a lot of circumstances around the Firmino case that were brought up in court (if you wanted to peruse) -- but even if you think he wasn't capable of driving what he did wasn't a malicious act it was one of ignorance and a poor decision making. I'm completely against drinking and driving (I don't drink at all actually), but if you're not going to ban alcohol entirely while driving (0% BAL) then you're always going to leave these things open for interpretation and end up with cases like this (what he did was wrong and deserved punishment).

Meanwhile that's not comparable at all to what Flanagan did -- which was clearly malicious, disgusting and intentionally harmful.

As far as punishing the action not the result goes...that's how all laws work, and punishments. If you hit someone with your car and break their leg you'll be in trouble, but if you hit someone with your car and kill them you'll be in jail.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Agreed. Flanagan was obviously worse because of the intent, and I believe that Liverpool will handle the situation appropriately. 

I wasn't referring to punishment in terms of court, obviously punishment will be different based on laws, but I didn't make that clear enough. More so in public opinion, we need to get to a point where any drunk driving is just unacceptable. There are just so many alternatives, especially for wealthy/famous individuals. If I can call an Uber when I'm borderline on how much I drank, then so can everyone else, especially wealthy individuals that can afford even better services for that kind of situation.


----------



## YNWA14

I agree, but in order for that perception, and culture, to change the law needs to be 0%, not a limit -- there should be no room for interpretation or judgment. Otherwise you'll always have people that believe they are under the limit when they're not, or think they're capable of driving because of their constitution, etc. The problem is that not everybody can accurately judge how much they've had to drink, and as they drink more their judgment generally worsens.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Curtinho said:


> I agree, but in order for that perception, and culture, to change the law needs to be 0%, not a limit -- there should be no room for interpretation or judgment. Otherwise you'll always have people that believe they are under the limit when they're not, or think they're capable of driving because of their constitution, etc. The problem is that not everybody can accurately judge how much they've had to drink, and as they drink more their judgment generally worsens.




I don't agree that the law would have to be 0%, people just need to err on the side of caution, like most people do, but we're off-topic enough for the subject.


----------



## Live in the Now

Flanagan should be sacked immediately imo.


----------



## Chimaera

Live in the Now said:


> Flanagan should be sacked immediately imo.



They have to wait until the complete sentencing comes about, but, yes, he needs to be booted.


----------



## S E P H

What a stupid dumbass, sort of sucks because wasn't he a pretty solid prospect? I remember during the awful Rodgers era, he played a lot of games for you guys and looked solid as the next class of full backs. I have zero sympathy for him, when you leave a restaurant and push your girlfriend twice against the wall and then kicking her? Nah this isn't just a simple slap which I don't condole either. He got 12 months of community order and needs 15 days of rehabilitation days, what the hell is this? Seems like a slap on the wrist, but I don't know UK laws.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Evilo said:


> Flanagan was deemed guilty for assaulting his girlfriend.
> Liverpool released a statement saying he wasn't up to the standards of the club and that they will file an internal investigation.
> 
> Thank god he didn't drive loaded....



More like thank god he's not a better player. 

That whole post of rationalization about DUI by Curtinho is totally ridiculous. The law isn't open to interpretation. The limit is the limit for a reason.


----------



## YNWA14

Actually, this has gone off the rails enough. The above is just moronic and not surprising given the source. Moving on.


----------



## Chimaera

For what it's worth (and obviously not condoning either action), but clubs and jobs in general take a lighter look at DUI than they do in physical altercations with women. 

Both are obviously bad, and are treated with such. There's a bit of a difference in the two. 

There's also something to be said that alcoholism is treated as an addiction, and therefore the club owes some obligation to help with the rehab process, whereas hitting women is not seen with the same situation.

Note: I'm coming at this obviously from an American viewpoint, and I do know that DUI is more serious there at times. But in the US, the two are treated much differently.


----------



## Evilo

I don't think there's any doubt it's different, but mainly because of consequences.
The treatment of the two however, is awfully hypocritical by the club.
One should be booted, while the other should have been suspended for a few games. That's the difference.

And we all know why that didn't happen, as Jersey Fresh stated.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Curtinho said:


> Actually, this has gone off the rails enough. The above is just moronic and not surprising given the source. Moving on.



LOL. 

You hop from one embarrassment on this board to another. Hell, you've got two going on simultaneously today. You trying to call anyone else out qualifies as something beyond hilarity and more in the insanity category.


----------



## Chimaera

He probably should have been suspended for a few games, but it is what it is.


----------



## hersky77

S E P H said:


> What a stupid dumbass, sort of sucks because wasn't he a pretty solid prospect? I remember during the awful Rodgers era, he played a lot of games for you guys and looked solid as the next class of full backs. I have zero sympathy for him, when you leave a restaurant and push your girlfriend twice against the wall and then kicking her? Nah this isn't just a simple slap which I don't condole either. He got 12 months of community order and needs 15 days of rehabilitation days, what the hell is this? Seems like a slap on the wrist, but I don't know UK laws.





He looked really good the year Liverpool almost won it all, but since then hes been ravaged by injuries.


----------



## hersky77

Evilo said:


> I don't think there's any doubt it's different, but mainly because of consequences.
> The treatment of the two however, is awfully hypocritical by the club.
> One should be booted, while the other should have been suspended for a few games. That's the difference.
> 
> And we all know why that didn't happen, as Jersey Fresh stated.




LOL, Rooney was busted for a DUI and all everton made him do was pay a fine. He was 3 times over the legal limit. But not a peep about that one.


----------



## Evilo

hersky77 said:


> LOL, Rooney was busted for a DUI and all everton made him do was pay a fine. He was 3 times over the legal limit. But not a peep about that one.



Ah, the famous "I'm not alone" argument.


----------



## bleedblue1223

What is the line for punishment outside the court of law. If you do the crime, you gotta do the time, but once the "time" is served, how much extra punishment do you receive?


----------



## phisherman

Chuba Akpom also got a DUI. He got a fine and that's it.


----------



## Evilo

phisherman said:


> Chuba Akpom also got a DUI. He got a fine and that's it.



So DUI is Liverpool standards.


----------



## phisherman

Evilo said:


> So DUI is Liverpool standards.




He's an Arsenal prospect. Wenger is losing his touch. He used to be able to reform alcoholics. Now can't even keep prospects from drinking.


----------



## Evilo

phisherman said:


> He's an Arsenal prospect. Wenger is losing his touch. He used to be able to reform alcoholics. Now can't even keep prospects from drinking.



No, I meant that since Flanagan didn't meet "Liverpool standards" by hitting his girlfriend, and since no statement was made like this for Firmino, DUI is fine by Liverpool standards.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Players generally aren't suspended for DUIs, across all sports.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Evilo said:


> No, I meant that since Flanagan didn't meet "Liverpool standards" by hitting his girlfriend, and since no statement was made like this for Firmino, DUI is fine by Liverpool standards.



They did punish him though...


----------



## Live in the Now

Chimaera said:


> He probably should have been suspended for a few games, but it is what it is.




I would say one game. It just turns out that the game after he pled guilty was against Hull. They lost.



Evilo said:


> No, I meant that since Flanagan didn't meet "Liverpool standards" by hitting his girlfriend, and since no statement was made like this for Firmino, DUI is fine by Liverpool standards.




DUI without crashing is a mistake that didn't hurt anyone. Hitting your girlfriend like Coman and Flanagan have done this year is abuse. They should be sacked immediately and banned. I don't care if you're as good as Messi. Gone. Never want to watch them play football again.

It is also not uncommon for players to be put in prison for drunk driving. Tony Adams, George Best, and Jermaine Pennant all wound up there.

Also:

The player has been disciplined by the club for his actions and reminded of his responsibilities for the present and the future. The nature of this action will remain private, however it does not impact on his availability for selection in matches. The club considers this to be an isolated incident, and a rare lapse in judgement and professionalism. We will work with the player to further educate him on the dangers associated with drink driving specifically.

That's an official statement.


----------



## hersky77

Evilo said:


> Ah, the famous "I'm not alone" argument.




Not really you sit and criticize Liverpool for almost everything. But where is your criticism of Rooney and Everton. Don’t be so biased


----------



## Live in the Now

hersky77 said:


> Not really you sit and criticize Liverpool for almost everything. But where is your criticism of Rooney and Everton. Don’t be so biased




Chelsea has a player who drove drunk and got someone killed. The standards for these things are pretty clear. Don't hurt someone else.


----------



## Peen

Live in the Now said:


> Chelsea has a player who drove drunk and got someone killed. The standards for these things are pretty clear. Don't hurt someone else.



f*** Alonso


----------



## Live in the Now

Also, as it relates to the case with Firmino, it was established that he did drive drunk, but also that his house had also been robbed and he was staying in a hotel for safety reasons. He didn't know how to get there and turned out of the restaurant onto the wrong side of the road, where he was immediately stopped. He shouldn't have been behind the wheel in the first place.

Obviously that's a really stupid thing but hardly something where you burn someone at the stake over it. Beating your girlfriend on the other hand is way more than a really stupid thing. It's the lowest of the low in my opinion and a total disgrace.


----------



## YNWA14

Yep.

If Firmino had beaten his wife I'd ask for him to be fired and banned also. I don't think he would but anyway. Drinking and driving is not to be taken lightly and is a terrible thing to do but his specific situation is not comparable at all to what Flanagan did and it's a joke that they were even compared...though again, the source, etc.


----------



## hersky77

Live in the Now said:


> Chelsea has a player who drove drunk and got someone killed. The standards for these things are pretty clear. Don't hurt someone else.




I don’t disagree, driving while impaired is one of the dumbest things a person can do. It puts your own life at danger while endangering the lives of many other people.


----------



## Live in the Now

Curtinho said:


> Yep.
> 
> If Firmino had beaten his wife I'd ask for him to be fired and banned also. I don't think he would but anyway. Drinking and driving is not to be taken lightly and is a terrible thing to do but his specific situation is not comparable at all to what Flanagan did and it's a joke that they were even compared...though again, the source, etc.




If Flanagan's situation tells people anything it should show that we have literally no idea what these people are like off the pitch and shouldn't assume anything. He seemed to be a good kid. Clearly not.

Actions that hurt other people are something I'm not going to tolerate. I don't intend to pass judgments about anything else. Firmino could have hurt someone, but he didn't, and he got banned from driving for a year. I also think he should be forced to breathe into his car for the rest of his life before the car can be turned on, but I don't know if they have that over there.


----------



## Chimaera

For what it’s worth, I don’t know that one mistake should ruin anyone’s life, but it’s completely unfortunate. We don’t know the entire circumstances, and odds are drinking was a part of both. I’m not excusing it, I just feel bad for all parties. DUI, assault, abuse, you name it, it’s really terrible.


----------



## YNWA14

Even more impressive when you consider that Liverpool has one of the higher possession levels in the PL (meaning less intervention opportunities against the ball) and he missed over 1000 minutes worth of gametime in the first season due to injury/integration.

Arnautovic is an interesting player too.


----------



## hatterson

So what is that supposed to tell me about his play?


----------



## Evilo

hatterson said:


> So what is that supposed to tell me about his play?



That he's a tad better than Jordan Ayew


----------



## hatterson

Evilo said:


> That he's a tad better than Jordan Ayew




Yea that's what I don't understand about it. Looking at that list I can't really conclude that being high = being good.

Sanchez is obviously a great talent. Pedro is good. Arnautovic is an alright mid table forward. Ayew is an alright lower table/championship forward.


----------



## bluesfan94

Curtinho said:


> Right, but unfortunately the laws surrounding drinking and driving are not black and white.



I don't know UK laws, but they're pretty black and white in America


----------



## YNWA14

hatterson said:


> So what is that supposed to tell me about his play?



I thought it was pretty obvious; he's the hardest working forward in the league off the ball, and not by a small amount. For example if you compare his defensive output to someone like Cavani, who's supposed to be a defensive workhorse, you're looking at a massive gap (for example Cavani has completed 58 of 129 attempted tackles over the last 3 seasons in League/CL and added 45 interceptions while Firmino has completed 187 of 301 tackles and added 59 interceptions and that's missing part of the first season plus no Europe last year). These numbers aren't meant to compare the quality of player persay but to show a part of their defensive involvement (players like Arnautovic, Ayew and even Pedro to an extent will benefit of course from playing for teams that set up more defensively and thus are required to spend more time chasing the ball, which only amplifies just how hard Firmino works against it). It's a piece of the puzzle, but you're a numbers guy apparently (at least I gather by your sig) so I think you could have figured that out.


bluesfan94 said:


> I don't know UK laws, but they're pretty black and white in America



Yeah I wasn't articulating myself very well. I just meant in terms of most people who don't have a breathalyzer aren't going to know when they are or aren't over the limit besides general 'rules of thumb' put out that don't apply to everyone. Everyone's alcohol consumption and threshold is different for various reasons, and most people's judgment becomes worse as they drink more. With the laws as they are now they leave a lot of wiggle room for people to make their own judgments (which as we know from general society is asking for trouble). Obviously the laws have been progressing in the right way, but for me they need to be harsher as is. Punishment for drinking and driving, IMO, should be worse and the tolerance should be 0 -- don't leave it open for a judgment call, just make the call that you're not allowed to drive if you've been drinking as everyone seems to have a personal gauge as to what impairment is or isn't. Don't mean to derail the thread anymore just wanted to clarify my position.


----------



## hatterson

Curtinho said:


> I thought it was pretty obvious; that he's the hardest working forward in the league off the ball, and not by a small amount. For example if you compare his defensive output to someone like Cavani, who's supposed to be a defensive workhorse, you're looking at a massive gap. These numbers aren't meant to compare the quality of player persay but to show a part of their defensive involvement (players like Arnautovic, Ayew and even Pedro to an extent will benefit of course from playing for teams that set up more defensively and thus are required to spend more time chasing the ball, which only amplifies just how hard Firmino works against it). It's a piece of the puzzle, but you're a numbers guy apparently (at least I gather by your sig) so I think you could have figured that out.




He also plays in a system which has, almost as it's primary goal, pressing the opposition right after possession is lost and where the wide players are frequently ahead of him in the play meaning he's in a much better position to challenge for lost balls than most other forwards.


----------



## YNWA14

hatterson said:


> He also plays in a system which has, almost as it's primary goal, pressing the opposition right after possession is lost and where the wide players are frequently ahead of him in the play meaning he's in a much better position to challenge for lost balls than most other forwards.



The positions and his lead of the counter-press are a result of his work rate, aggressiveness, teamplay and abilities not a byproduct of the system as evidenced by how completely different the forwards (and overall shape really) act when he is not in the line-up. Sturridge, Origi, Benteke and now Solanke have not ever come close to replicating the same type of havoc or had the same type of impact. Neither did Lewandowski under Klopp. All you have to do is watch the team with and without him (or even just watch him play) to see that.


----------



## les Habs

hatterson said:


> He also plays in a system which has, almost as it's primary goal, pressing the opposition right after possession is lost and where the wide players are frequently ahead of him in the play meaning he's in a much better position to challenge for lost balls than most other forwards.




And? Still looks as though he's damn good at it regardless based solely on the numbers. 



hatterson said:


> Yea that's what I don't understand about it. Looking at that list I can't really conclude that being high = being good.
> 
> Sanchez is obviously a great talent. Pedro is good. Arnautovic is an alright mid table forward. Ayew is an alright lower table/championship forward.




Clearly you don't understand it. You don't even understand the post you quoted when posting this. Neither his post nor the list suggest it's an overall rating of the player.


----------



## hatterson

If the point was "Firmino works hard defensively" then sure. I figured that was pretty obvious to anyone who's ever watched him play. He's also in a system that allows that work rate to transform into a lot of tackle/interception numbers.


----------



## les Habs

hatterson said:


> If the point was "Firmino works hard defensively" then sure. I figured that was pretty obvious to anyone who's ever watched him play. He's also in a system that allows that work rate to transform into a lot of tackle/interception numbers.




If? What exactly did you think the point was? Regardless of that and the system he plays in the numbers are impressive.


----------



## hatterson

les Habs said:


> If? What exactly did you think the point was? Regardless of that and the system he plays in the numbers are impressive.




It was posted with an "even more interesting" disclaimer which seems to imply that it's interesting in the first place. It seems to me like posting "Harry Kane scores a crapload of goals" which is fun to see sometimes, but not something I would call interesting because it's the most obvious point you can make.


----------



## Live in the Now

The interesting part of the statistics is that he's far above and beyond the other players. Then on top of that he has 17 goals in all comps this season which, as I said previously, only a handful of players can really do those things in combination with one another.

Arnautovic is probably underrated but I've thought that for a while.


----------



## les Habs

hatterson said:


> It was posted with an "even more interesting" disclaimer which seems to imply that it's interesting in the first place. It seems to me like posting "Harry Kane scores a crapload of goals" which is fun to see sometimes, but not something I would call interesting because it's the most obvious point you can make.




No, it was not. It was posted with an "even more impressive" disclaimer which is a legitimate argument to make. 

For starters, the Kane analogy is flawed as few if any post numbers like what Curt posted there. Second, if that's the case, then why did you post this?



hatterson said:


> So what is that supposed to tell me about his play?




Better yet, this?



hatterson said:


> Yea that's what I don't understand about it. Looking at that list I can't really conclude that being high = being good.
> 
> Sanchez is obviously a great talent. Pedro is good. Arnautovic is an alright mid table forward. Ayew is an alright lower table/championship forward.


----------



## YNWA14

Live in the Now said:


> The interesting part of the statistics is that he's far above and beyond the other players. Then on top of that he has 17 goals in all comps this season which, as I said previously, only a handful of players can really do those things in combination with one another.



You could definitely make the argument that there is no other player that really does what Firmino does in terms of work rate and defensive contribution combined with his production.



Live in the Now said:


> Arnautovic is probably underrated but I've thought that for a while.



Yeah Arnautovic has always looked pretty good to me when I've watched him play. Seems very strong on the ball, pretty productive and surprisingly hardworking (that part I didn't expect). He might fit in nicely at Liverpool if he could do it with consistency, maybe even as a back-up to Firmino.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

On Firmino, from the outside fans (non liverpool fans or that watch Liverpool casually) Firmino is a midfielder playing as a forward and a poor finisher. For fans that watch him every week he is the key to unlock Mane and Salah in getting their chances/goals. He is always tracking back and he likes to come deep to collect the balls and he is elite in ball control that create space to his teammates. He is the key to Liverpool offense although he does not score as often as the usual elite striker. He does have some moments where he miss scoring chances but not less than you usual striker bare Harry Kane. He is more important to Liverpool than Coutinho was. My girlfriend is brazilian and she laughed at me initially when I told her that Firmino is/was more important to Liverpool than Coutinho. She has now watched many games with me and she can see the importance of Firmino. Coutinho was the steering wheel while Firmino is the engine. I believe that Firmino is one of the rare player in the premier league in the big 6 that don't get the proper respect. Everybody talk about Salah and Coutinho (both are elite no doubt) but very little mention Firmino. He is not your lazy striker that wait for other to provide him chances like Benteke was and like Sturridge is. 

Anyway just my 2 cents on Firmino and his goal against City is not as controversial as some people make it to be. These non-call happen every single game and it is considered 50/50 challenge some refs are more lenient and some are more strict. I don't think Stone falling down would have make that much difference in the refs mind.


----------



## hatterson

les Habs said:


> Second, if that's the case, then why did you post this?




I assumed that if I posted "So what is that supposed to tell me about his play?" people would be intelligent enough to understand I meant "So what is that supposed to tell me about his play that isn't already obvious to anyone who's seen him for more than 8 seconds?" Clearly I was mistaken.




Curtinho said:


> You could definitely make the argument that there is no other player that really does what Firmino does in terms of work rate and defensive contribution combined with his production.




Yea, I don't doubt if that's what you want from a #9, then Firmino is one of, if not the, best at it. Liverpool have just about the perfect system and personnel so that a guy like Firmino can be the most useful given his attributes. If you stuck him at the top of the United lineup or as a #9 for Chelsea, he wouldn't be remotely as effective, just like players who would be great in those positions wouldn't do near as much for Liverpool as Firmino does.


----------



## YNWA14

I don't think so, personally (to the last bit). I think Firmino is good enough to be effective in any system. I think it's more the team benefitting from Firmino than vice versa. For example at Hoffenheim Firmino was still lighting it up in a completely different set-up. He's just an incredible footballer.


----------



## les Habs

hatterson said:


> I assumed that if I posted "So what is that supposed to tell me about his play?" people would be intelligent enough to understand I meant "So what is that supposed to tell me about his play that isn't already obvious to anyone who's seen him for more than 8 seconds?" Clearly I was mistaken.




Right, right. I'm supposed to assume you meant something different than what you actually posted. I assume people are intelligent enough to actually post what they mean, or least correct themselves when afforded the opportunity, instead of posting something else. This latest post of yours of course does nothing to explain away the other post I quoted either which clearly demonstrates that what you're now claiming you meant isn't at all what you meant. What you posted and what you meant is clear so you just own up to it. Why you posted it, apart from the fact that you don't understand the importance of the stats on offer, one can only imagine. Butthurt United supporter? Don't like Firmino? Tired of all the "Liverpool are on the verge of Champions of the free World" sentiment? Having a go at Curtinho?


----------



## Evilo

I also assume people are intelligent enough to be aware that those numbers hardly tell if the player works harder than others defensively.
That's not to say Firmino doesn't, because it's obvious he does.
But to base this on those stats is so ridiculous.
For instance, when a forward trackes back on a counter and blocks what could have been a dangerous attack by cutting passing lanes, that doesn't appear in those stat sheet.
And that's worth more than any of those stats.

As I've said a hundred times, eye test people, eye test.


----------



## hatterson

les Habs said:


> Right, right. I'm supposed to assume you meant something different than what you actually posted. I assume people are intelligent enough to actually post what they mean, or least correct themselves when afforded the opportunity, instead of posting something else. This latest post of yours of course does nothing to explain away the other post I quoted either which clearly demonstrates that what you're now claiming you meant isn't at all what you meant. What you posted and what you meant is clear so you just own up to it. Why you posted it, apart from the fact that you don't understand the importance of the stats on offer, one can only imagine. ******** United supporter? Don't like Firmino? Tired of all the "Liverpool are on the verge of Champions of the free World" sentiment? Having a go at Curtinho?




I was confused at the post because I assumed it was saying something more than "Firmino works incredibly hard defensively" therefore I was looking for deeper meaning to it and confused that I couldn't find any that made sense. It's really as simple as that.


----------



## YNWA14

Evilo said:


> I also assume people are intelligent enough to be aware that those numbers hardly tell if the player works harder than others defensively.
> That's not to say Firmino doesn't, because it's obvious he does.
> But to base this on those stats is so ridiculous.
> For instance, when a forward trackes back on a counter and blocks what could have been a dangerous attack by cutting passing lanes, that doesn't appear in those stat sheet.
> And that's worth more than any of those stats.
> 
> As I've said a hundred times, eye test people, eye test.



I said it showed a part of their defensive contribution and 'piece of the puzzle' very clearly. Also why is what you wrote 'worth more than any of those stats'? As though somehow blocking a passing lane means more than winning a tackle that turns into a goal, or an intercepted ball that could have sprung a counter attack? Everything requires context but these stats are telling to anyone that doesn't want to be blind to what they say.


----------



## Evilo

Nah, we all know who the blindman is.

Eye tests and eye tests only tell us how player work defensively.


----------



## hatterson

Eye test is clearly important, but "eye tests and only eye tests" is just ignoring how sports is evolving.


----------



## les Habs

hatterson said:


> I was confused at the post because I assumed it was saying something more than "Firmino works incredibly hard defensively" therefore I was looking for deeper meaning to it and confused that I couldn't find any that made sense. It's really as simple as that.




Your posts suggest otherwise.


----------



## Evilo

hatterson said:


> Eye test is clearly important, but "eye tests and only eye tests" is just ignoring how sports is evolving.



No, it's ignoring how media evaluate.
That's why scouts base their evaluation on eye tests. Tapes, and real games. Stats are only a minor part.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Live in the Now said:


> Arnautovic is probably underrated but I've thought that for a while.



On his day he can be flat out unplayable. Night and day between his play under Bilic and Moyes. 

Still a hothead, though.


----------



## YNWA14

Liverpool won't sack Flanagan following assault ruling

Disappointing.


----------



## Chimaera

For what it's worth, he's still with the girlfriend, has been contrite and the club seems to want to help him through it with some counseling/support. 

I don't know that it's the right decision, but he's effectively never going to play for them again.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

His entire twitter is filled with this stuff.


----------



## S E P H

Cazorla won't be available to even start playing until 2019. So awful and completely unfortunate, my favourite player ever to play for the Gunners in the modern era.

Has had ten surgeries around his ankle/Achilles tendon. Dumb doctor gave him too many corticosteroids which destroyed his connective tissue around the tendon, the tendon then got infected where the bacteria was eating away at it, and finally got a skin graft to replace the dead necrosis tissue. This is the reason why he almost lost his foot.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

He's a gem so, it sucks to see this but he should consider retiring.


----------



## S E P H

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> He's a gem so, it sucks to see this but he should consider retiring.



He's a UFA after this season and Arsenal haven't had any contract talks with him (sad, but it makes sense). Sounds like his son wants to watch him play for one final time. So, Santi said today that he has plans to return to top flight football.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Oh man, that's brutal. Hope he gets better and can retire on his own terms.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

S E P H said:


> He's a UFA after this season and Arsenal haven't had any contract talks with him (sad, but it makes sense). Sounds like his son wants to watch him play for one final time. So, Santi said today that he has plans to return to top flight football.



Would be nice to see him back in Spain.


----------



## YNWA14

This applies to more than just this season, but just in case someone was doubting there's an obvious tactical issue here:



> Klopp's #LFC when >65% possession
> 29 W11 D12 L6
> 1.55 PPG
> This year P6 W2 D4#NoGegenNoParty




Klopp can't be completely ignorant to this can he? He has to recognize that either he needs to start working harder at organizing his side in possession or bring in some kind of coach to help him do so.


----------



## Live in the Now

Curtinho said:


> This applies to more than just this season, but just in case someone was doubting there's an obvious tactical issue here:
> 
> 
> 
> Klopp can't be completely ignorant to this can he? He has to recognize that either he needs to start working harder at organizing his side in possession or bring in some kind of coach to help him do so.




Well for some reason you're completely blind and thinking the team has plenty of quality, so he wouldn't be the only one. They need to change the players to be more successful.


----------



## YNWA14

Yeah you're right Liverpool has shit players and most of these teams that allow them 65%+ possession are on the same level of quality.


----------



## Live in the Now

Yes, they do have a few shit players. Wijnaldum and his 1 goal being one of them. He has as many goals as Gareth Barry this season. Such players are the reason they have a hard time scoring goals in these games.

Gomez and Matip on the other hand are reasons they don't have more points than they should have, because they've conceded goals quite frequently thanks to those two being dumb.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Matip wasn't very good in Germany either..and yet Klopp signed him. Liverpool's having a milder version of the same malaise that cost him his job in Dortmund. I suspect that after his now what 15+ years in management, he's not gonna suddenly get better at coaching defense.


----------



## YNWA14

So what's likely...Wijnaldum has suddenly turned to **** or he's been asked to play a different role? His track record speaks for itself when he's played in a more offensive role. It's just ignorance to suggest our struggles are because our defensive/ball retention players aren't scoring goals (I mean Kante/Bakayoko, Matic/Herrera and Dembele/Dier are all quite productive yeah?). It's like there's no bounds to the excuses that will be made for Klopp and blame placed on the players because he refuses to adapt tactically or learn how to approach games where he has the wealth of the possession. Agreed about Gomez/Matip though, Matip especially has been pretty terrible and I'd rather see Gomez at CB or Lovren slot in beside van Dijk moving forward.

On another topic...

Jon Flanagan plays as LFC U23s beat Derby



> Jon Flanagan was perhaps surprisingly named in the starting lineup, following recent off-field issues, and there were also starts for Lloyd Jones and Ben Woodburn.




This is pretty gross. Expected better from LFC.


----------



## Evilo

"Standards".


----------



## Burner Account

Lots of hemming and hawing on this board about Liverpool's "one" problem.

"X isn't the problem, Y is the problem."

Could it be that they have problems in every area except the front, as well as managerial problems?


----------



## Live in the Now

Yes, they have a player quality problem in general. Everywhere except the front three and LB.


----------



## YNWA14

Almost every team has a player quality issue.

There's a bigger issue with the coaching than with the player quality though at the moment (and of course this is relative, Liverpool are still a very strong team with the coaching and players they have relative to the rest of the field).


----------



## Live in the Now

Curtinho said:


> Every team has a player quality issue.
> 
> There's a bigger issue with the coaching than with the player quality though at the moment (and of course this is relative, Liverpool are still a very strong team with the coaching and players they have relative to the rest of the field).




Wanna bet they win tonight now that they changed the midfield?


----------



## YNWA14

Because a win today would be confirming the belief in player quality? We beat Huddersfield 3-0 with a midfield of Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner. Bringing Can back in after his recent performances is a bigger issue than anything else on the field.


----------



## Live in the Now

Curtinho said:


> Because a win today would be confirming the belief in player quality? We beat Huddersfield 3-0 with a midfield of Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner. Bringing Can back in after his recent performances is a bigger issue than anything else on the field.




The penalty being the exception, you seem to not remember that in that game Liverpool didn't create a single chance until a Huddersfield player handed them one.


----------



## YNWA14

Live in the Now said:


> The penalty being the exception, you seem to not remember that in that game Liverpool didn't create a single chance until a Huddersfield player handed them one.



In what way does that apply to what I said? You said 'watch them win now that they've changed the midfield' when they already beat Huddersfield handily.

Of course our midfield looks very creative today, mind.


----------



## Savant

Curtinho said:


> In what way does that apply to what I said? You said 'watch them win now that they've changed the midfield' when they already beat Huddersfield handily.
> 
> Of course our midfield looks very creative today, mind.



Fresh legs are helping.


----------



## robertmac43

Spurs verse United predictions?


----------



## hatterson

robertmac43 said:


> Spurs verse United predictions?




3-1 United. I live in a dream world.


----------



## The Abusement Park

robertmac43 said:


> Spurs verse United predictions?




2-1 United


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Lingard is starting at Wembley. Trippier has to deal with Martial. We're f***ed.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## robertmac43

I'm nervous for this second half of the Brighton game. Huge 3 points up for grabs. Just got to hold off the coming attack for 45 mins


----------



## robertmac43

Anyone watch the Chelsea game? How did that even happen?


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Is there no end to the humiliation? And the club has at least 6 first teamers of African descent, mind you.

West Ham director of football Tony Henry sparks race row | Daily Mail Online


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

The Abusement Park said:


> 2-1 United




Nailed it.


----------



## SJSharks72

Big Kahuna said:


> Lingard is starting at Wembley. Trippier has to deal with Martial. We're ****ed.



Lol. Martial was trash today.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Nailed it.




So I’m the only one to get shit on for my prediction? Lol


----------



## hatterson

The Abusement Park said:


> So I’m the only one to get **** on for my prediction? Lol




In fairness, I admitted I was living in a dream world.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

The 4 way fight for Champions League spots and then the relegation battle is going to be fun to watch. Only 5 points from 10th place to relegation.


----------



## The Abusement Park

hatterson said:


> In fairness, I admitted I was living in a dream world.




I mean that’s true, I just don’t see a 2-1 prediction being that ridiculous


----------



## Live in the Now

spintheblackcircle said:


> The 4 way fight for Champions League spots and then the relegation battle is going to be fun to watch. Only 5 points from 10th place to relegation.




Southampton
Stoke
Huddersfield

Saints selling van Dijk and only bringing in Carrillo is a joke.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

The Abusement Park said:


> So I’m the only one to get **** on for my prediction? Lol




<3


----------



## robertmac43

spintheblackcircle said:


> The 4 way fight for Champions League spots and then the relegation battle is going to be fun to watch. Only 5 points from 10th place to relegation.




Fun to watch for a neutral....My family is Brighton fans, its going to be a stressful end of the season!


----------



## robertmac43

Live in the Now said:


> Southampton
> Stoke
> Huddersfield
> 
> Saints selling van Dijk and only bringing in Carrillo is a joke.




are those the three you see going down?


----------



## Live in the Now

robertmac43 said:


> are those the three you see going down?




I think so.


----------



## robertmac43

Live in the Now said:


> I think so.




I agree with Huddersfield, but I would switch Stoke and Southampton with Newcastle and Swansea. 

Hard to tell though, going to be one wild finish at the bottom of the table.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

West Brom are surely going down. I hope Stoke too.

I'm not sure what the Southampton board are thinking by keeping Pellegrino. He's awful.


----------



## YNWA14

I don't know what happened to Southampton either; on paper their team is really not that bad even without van Dijk.


----------



## Cassano

Stoke need to get relegated and never come back up.


----------



## Havre

Not much separating the teams in the bottom half. A bit of belief. A good winger/forward. A settle defense. Small things that is the difference between a team like Burnley and WBA.

To me Huddersfield are by far the weakest team. The rest I couldn't really say. Could see any team below Everton dropping into the relegation fight depending on injuries, self belief etc.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

I think that if Spurs win at Liverpool this week, they will end up 2nd.

I think their form are better than either ManU and Chelsea and while I may be a prisoner of the moment, I think if Spurs can get 3 points at Liverpool, they will end up 2nd.


----------



## Havre

I think Spurs got a fair shot at 2nd regardless. Not impressed by any of the teams outside of City (incl. Spurs). Hard for me to evaluate this objectively, but to me it feels like Spurs got more left in the tank than the others fighting for that 2nd. On the other side a CL run could take so much energy away from the league the end up 5-6th - even if they beat Liverpool on Sunday.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Arsenal is finishing 6th. They aren't catching up to the top 5.


----------



## YNWA14

They have a more realistic shot of finishing 7th than 4th, IMO.

If you look at the end of the season...

United have Chelsea, Liverpool, City and Arsenal still to play.
Liverpool have Spurs, United and Chelsea.
Chelsea have United, City, Spurs and Liverpool.
Spurs have Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and City.

The game between Spurs and Liverpool could very well decide 2nd, though it's still early those will be some pivotal points. I think Chelsea will hope for 4th with their toughest part of the schedule all at once (Utd and City right in and around 2 games against Barcelona).


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Havre said:


> I think Spurs got a fair shot at 2nd regardless. Not impressed by any of the teams outside of City (incl. Spurs). Hard for me to evaluate this objectively, but to me it feels like Spurs got more left in the tank than the others fighting for that 2nd. On the other side a CL run could take so much energy away from the league the end up 5-6th - even if they beat Liverpool on Sunday.




If only we still had played at White Hart Lane and not lost those costly points in the beginning of our Wembley stint.

Not hopeful for our CL tie against Juve anymore. Would you like to know how many goals they have conceded in their past fourteen games? Only one.


----------



## Havre

Wembley can’t really explain Alli being crap, Sissoko playing, Lloris making mistakes etc.

Actually surprised how strong we have been at home generally speaking.

Maybe it’s Wembley. Maybe it is just natural variance in performances. Not sure.

Juventus are good and favorites to go through, but Spurs certainly still got a fair chance. The difference between us and them is less than us and Newport  I give Spurs a 30% chance or something.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

I just thought of this:

Spurs got the best player of all the English teams to add to their lineup after the January window. Not the new guy. 

Alderweirald is back. And great timing, with all the goals Liverpool are capable of scoring.


----------



## bleedblue1223

I obviously do not know how this works in England, but wouldn't these jobs that they are referring to be part-time? I imagine they are only talking about the game-day staff.

Co-sign our letter to Manchester United: pay a Living Wage


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Havre said:


> Wembley can’t really explain Alli being crap, Sissoko playing, Lloris making mistakes etc.
> 
> Actually surprised how strong we have been at home generally speaking.
> 
> Maybe it’s Wembley. Maybe it is just natural variance in performances. Not sure.
> 
> Juventus are good and favorites to go through, but Spurs certainly still got a fair chance. The difference between us and them is less than us and Newport  I give Spurs a 30% chance or something.




I too am surprised how well we are doing at Wembley but I definitely think it's a factor, considering that we've already lost eleven points there in comparison to the four we lost at WHL last season.

Alli has been on and off. Still very productive.

Hugo has also been on and off. What worries me is that he will regress sooner or later and management will ignore that he has regressed past our level considering that he is the captain.

Can't find any excuses for Sissoko being played so much. Chances are that he starts against Liverpool considering that Dembele played so much yesterday and Winks is out.


----------



## robertmac43

All Might said:


> Stoke need to get relegated and never come back up.




Man you must really hate "rainy days at Stoke"


----------



## robertmac43

spintheblackcircle said:


> Arsenal is finishing 6th. They aren't catching up to the top 5.




Won't matter when they win Europa League


----------



## Havre

Big Kahuna said:


> I too am surprised how well we are doing at Wembley but I definitely think it's a factor, considering that we've already lost eleven points there in comparison to the four we lost at WHL last season.
> 
> Alli has been on and off. Still very productive.
> 
> Hugo has also been on and off. What worries me is that he will regress sooner or later and management will ignore that he has regressed past our level considering that he is the captain.
> 
> Can't find any excuses for Sissoko being played so much. Chances are that he starts against Liverpool considering that Dembele played so much yesterday and Winks is out.




Alli is far less effective than last season. Same with Lloris. Just two examples.

A couple of more goals from Alli and a couple of less mistakes from Lloris - and Spurs might have been 2nd already. I personally never read too much into "trends" based on a small number of games (in this case 18-19 games isn´t enough to say much about anything in terms of cause and effect).


----------



## bluesfan94

Curtinho said:


> United have Chelsea, Liverpool, City and Arsenal still to play.
> Liverpool have Spurs, United and Chelsea.
> Chelsea have United, City, Spurs and Liverpool.
> Spurs have Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and City.



United have Chelsea, Liverpool, City, Arsenal, and Sevilla x 2 left to play + FA Cup
Liverpool have Spurs, United, Chelsea, and Porto x 2 left to play
Chelsea have United, City, Spurs, Liverpool, and Barcelona x 2 left to play + FA Cup
Spurs have Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, City, and Juventus x 2 left to play + FA Cup
Arsenal has United, Spurs, City x 2 left to play

Ignoring UCL is silly. Those are big games, too. Also I noticed you left Arsenal out so I added them for you.


----------



## YNWA14

I was comparing the teams fighting for the top 4, and referring to their games in the league where that was pertinent. I wasn't just talking about 'big games'.


----------



## bluesfan94

Curtinho said:


> I was comparing the teams fighting for the top 4, and referring to their games in the league where that was pertinent. I wasn't just talking about 'big games'.



Which is why it’s curious you both left out and included arsenal.


----------



## YNWA14

bluesfan94 said:


> Which is why it’s curious you both left out and included arsenal.



Because they can be a difficult game for some but I don't believe they are a contender to finish in the top 4.


----------



## bluesfan94

Curtinho said:


> Because they can be a difficult game for some but I don't believe they are a contender to finish in the top 4.



So can Bournemouth but you didn’t include them. I get it, you want to shit on Arsenal. But since you apparently legitimately believe they are going to be passed by a team 11 points back, you must similarly have faith they can pass a team 8 points ahead. We know you would with Liverpool.


----------



## Duchene2MacKinnon

Delete


----------



## BKIslandersFan

robertmac43 said:


> Man you must really hate "rainy days at Stoke"



Must be a secret Port Vale supporter.


----------



## YNWA14

bluesfan94 said:


> So can Bournemouth but you didn’t include them. I get it, you want to **** on Arsenal. But since you apparently legitimately believe they are going to be passed by a team 11 points back, you must similarly have faith they can pass a team 8 points ahead. We know you would with Liverpool.



I'm not actually just "****ing" on Arsenal. I also don't legitimately believe that Everton is going to pass them -- I made a joke about Walcott leading Everton by them, but the only team that had a legitimate chance of catching Arsenal was Leicester but they pissed off their best player so that's probably down the toilet now (especially after losing to Everton). I listed Arsenal in the games because they're viewed (rightfully) as one of the best 6 clubs, but I do think they're the weakest of the 6 and the furthest back already, with a decently tough schedule to finish the PL season.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Ornstein says Wenger doesn't fully rate Lacazette.


----------



## Cassano

Big Kahuna said:


> Ornstein says Wenger doesn't fully rate Lacazette.



A straight swap for Aubameyang would've been better I think.


----------



## Live in the Now

Big Kahuna said:


> Ornstein says Wenger doesn't fully rate Lacazette.




Spending 50m on players you don't rate is apparently the new thing.


----------



## les Habs

A little bird says Lacazette doesn't fully rate Wenger.


----------



## Savant

Lacazette is being played a little out of position. He needs to be on the shoulder of the last defender and he really hasn’t been. Of course that’s where Aubameyang wants to play too.


----------



## robertmac43

What a game today in Liverpool....Although I'm not convinced that second penalty was truly a penalty


----------



## BKIslandersFan

Big Kahuna said:


> Ornstein says Wenger doesn't fully rate Lacazette.



Can we have him?


----------



## Cassano

BKIslandersFan said:


> Can we have him?



Give us 50m and hes yours


----------



## Savant

robertmac43 said:


> What a game today in Liverpool....Although I'm not convinced that second penalty was truly a penalty



It wasn’t. Neither was the first. That’s footie.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Zero to 100 | By Harry Kane

Kane still motivated by getting cut by Arsenal. At age 8.

I lurv him.

"I can’t really recall what I felt in that moment. To be honest — I don’t even think I really knew what it _meant_. I was too young. But I do remember how my father reacted, and how it made me feel. He didn’t criticize me. He didn’t criticize Arsenal. He didn’t even look especially bothered by it at all. He just said, “Don’t worry, Harry. We’ll work harder — and we’ll go on and we’ll find another club, alright?”

Looking back on it now, you’d think I would’ve been more upset. And a lot of fathers, if they were desperate for their son to be a professional footballer … they would’ve reacted quite a bit differently, I suppose. But my dad, no matter what happened — he just never put any pressure on me. He was always so positive. His classic line, in any situation, was, “Well, let’s get on with it then.”

And that’s what we did."


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Lallana grabs opponent, sent off with U23s

Adam Lallana was sent off while playing for Liverpool's under-23s on Monday and could face a retrospective ban after grabbing an opponent.


----------



## Live in the Now

It's not for first team games.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Premier League: Winter break under discussion before new TV deal


----------



## Chimaera

On the Wenger Lacazette deal it’s probable that he didn’t have the final say on it or didn’t know what he’d have till he got him in.


----------



## Extra Texture

No idea what's going to happen to Conte (gone at the end of the season or in the next two weeks) but if I never see Bakayoko again in a Chelsea shirt it will be too soon. I hope its Drinkwater and Kante in a midfield two from here until the end of the season. I'm ready to cut bait on the guy, too. If Paris wanted him last year, sell him for a discount and move on.

The club were right to move on from Matic, especially if he wanted out. Replacing him with this guy, however...



All Might said:


> A straight swap for Aubameyang would've been better I think.




That would've been tidy, but after spending so much on him in summer it would have been Robbie Keanesque. Weren't Dortmund linked to him when he was leaving Lyon, too?


----------



## Jussi

60 years...






Still wonder what kind of a career that man on the left would have had...



> If you look at most players they’re good at certain things; in the air, with their left or right foot, they read the game well, or have pace. But Duncan had it all – he really was better at everything than anyone else. From the first moment I saw him he could play anywhere and do anything; he was brave, great in the tackle, could pass it long or short and score goals. When I arrived at United I was told there were a lot of good players, but Duncan was the only one who could do things I knew I wasn’t capable of.




- Sir Bobby Charlton



> If I shut my eyes I can see him now. Those pants hitched up, the wild leaps of boyish enthusiasm as he came running out of the tunnel, the tremendous power of his tackle – always fair but fearsome – the immense power on the ball. He played wing-half, centre-half, centre-forward and inside-forward with consummate ease. When I used to hear Muhammad Ali proclaim to the world that he was the greatest, I used to smile. You see, the greatest of them all was an English footballer named Duncan Edwards.




- Jimmy Murphy






> A broken heart a broken dream, A broken plane a broken team, No words were said a silent vow, We loved you then we love you now, The red flag will always fly, For Man United will never die!


----------



## Evilo

Extra Texture said:


> No idea what's going to happen to Conte (gone at the end of the season or in the next two weeks) but if I never see Bakayoko again in a Chelsea shirt it will be too soon. I hope its Drinkwater and Kante in a midfield two from here until the end of the season. I'm ready to cut bait on the guy, too. If Paris wanted him last year, sell him for a discount and move on.
> 
> The club were right to move on from Matic, especially if he wanted out. Replacing him with this guy, however...
> 
> 
> 
> That would've been tidy, but after spending so much on him in summer it would have been Robbie Keanesque. Weren't Dortmund linked to him when he was leaving Lyon, too?



1/ Bakayoko has been further in the CL than almost every Chelsea player. And was key doing so.
So give him some time and respect please.

2/ Aubameyang never played with Lyon.


----------



## Extra Texture

Evilo said:


> 1/ Bakayoko has been further in the CL than almost every Chelsea player. And was key doing so.
> So give him some time and respect please.
> 
> 2/ Aubameyang never played with Lyon.




1. I didnt mean it to sound disrespectful to the guy because the best possible outcome is for him succeed here. But he looks devoid of confidence at the moment and given the season right now that's a terrible place to be because things stand to get worse for the club from here on out. You're right that he's been further in the CL and its to his credit. For the record I think he can be an excellent player, but I'm just less convinced than ever its going to happen at Chelsea. That's as much about the current climate at the club, and an abysmal record for player development and evolution as much as anything about Bakayoko himself who has already shown his gifts in France and has all the tools to succeed in England.

My nightmare right now is that, with the injuries piling up, Conte has no choice but to throw him straight back in the mix after the WBA game and he has another bad outing. The toxic mix of bad performance + press maelstrom surrounding manager firing + "players need to look at themselves" takes could destroy what confidence he has left and make it impossible for him to shine in England. If he can be shielded from here until the summer, and then reassessed under a new manager, that would be the best possible outcome.

2. I was talking about Lacazette being included by Arsenal in a deal for PEA.


Also, some of Baka's performance yesterday is clearly on Conte. It was obvious to everyone he was having an all time career bad game, and he still didnt yank him after an early yellow.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Some players just don't fit certain teams. Both Chelsea and Bakayoko would be better off if they parted ways.


----------



## Live in the Now

Big Kahuna said:


> Some players just don't fit certain teams. Both Chelsea and Bakayoko would be better off if they parted ways.




Yes, I agree. They should sell him to Liverpool like the last time this happened.


----------



## Cassano

I'll carry Xhaka on my back for Bakoyoko in return!


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Live in the Now said:


> Yes, I agree. They should sell him to Liverpool like the last time this happened.




Just keep your hands off Doucoure please. Spurs ideal Dembele replacement.


----------



## Evilo

There's a way to go before saying player X isn't fit for a team.
Otherwise, Rai would have never shined for PSG. And what a player he was.


----------



## YNWA14

Nice read.

At Global Clubs, Local Players Serve as Connective Tissue


----------



## Live in the Now

Curtinho said:


> Nice read.
> 
> At Global Clubs, Local Players Serve as Connective Tissue




I'd bet just about anything he's our next player to be at the club his whole career. Still think he's our best young player.


----------



## YNWA14

Hope you're right. I still rate him behind Woodburn but I'd be happy with both reaching their potential. Thought he did really well against Spurs. Learning the league at his age is very tough (especially since he's not a forward which is a more forgiving imo) and he'll have his growing pains but there's obviously a lot to be excited about.


----------



## Havre

A couple of those passes/crosses against Spurs were sublime.

Still a long long way to go, but his potential is sky high.


----------



## S E P H

CIES Football Observatory

Man City is officially titled the "the most expensive squad in the history of football". Some interesting places, Arsenal and Everton above Atletico and Bayern. Monaco, Southampton, and Crystal Palace all above Napoli and Inter.


----------



## Evilo

S E P H said:


> CIES Football Observatory
> 
> Man City is officially titled the "the most expensive squad in the history of football". Some interesting places, Arsenal and Everton above Atletico and Bayern. Monaco, Southampton, and Crystal Palace all above Napoli and Inter.



Already posted here :
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/winter-mercato-window-rumors.2387947/page-139#post-141393647


----------



## YNWA14

Thought this was kind of interesting.



Salah mate!

Also lol Benteke what are you doing?


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Ryan Mason retires.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Ryan Mason: Hull City midfielder forced to retire after fractured skull

Tottenham and Pochettino owe Ryan Mason a debt that they won't forget


----------



## Cassano

Lacazette out 6 weeks after knee surgery. 

English Salah will be our Europa League starter. Kill me.


----------



## VEGASKING

Great timing. I thought he'd regain his confidence scoring some goals in the Europa.


----------



## YNWA14

Unfortunate for Lacazette. Should be interesting to see if he ends up making it in England after this. A very, very rough start to his career there.


----------



## Evilo

Weird, thought he was leading his team in scoring and had a very reasonnable 9 goals in 1800 minutes (goal every 200 minutes).
Compared to many strikers who started in the EPL, that's highly reasonnable.


----------



## YNWA14

Evilo said:


> Weird, thought he was leading his team in scoring and had a very reasonnable 9 goals in 1800 minutes (goal every 200 minutes).
> Compared to many strikers who started in the EPL, that's highly reasonnable.



I mean I could list a fair number of players with a higher goal per minute ratio that don't get to play offensive football against the majority of teams, nor who have the same kind of providers. On top of this he's scored 1 goal in his last 13 appearances including a number of very good opportunities to score. Coming from a league where he was consistently scoring 20+, and the expectations of the club he plays for, I'd say that's a pretty rough start. I mean people are pretty down on Morata and he's been much more effective than Lacazette.


----------



## Evilo

But Morata doesn't face the same issues as Lacazette at all when it comes to context.


----------



## phisherman

Curtinho said:


> I mean I could list a fair number of players with a higher goal per minute ratio that don't get to play offensive football against the majority of teams, nor who have the same kind of providers. On top of this he's scored 1 goal in his last 13 appearances including a number of very good opportunities to score. Coming from a league where he was consistently scoring 20+, and the expectations of the club he plays for, I'd say that's a pretty rough start. I mean people are pretty down on Morata and he's been much more effective than Lacazette.




It could be that the knee issue he had, which he's having surgery for, may have affected his play.


----------



## Live in the Now

Morata gets to play with Hazard so what do you think's gonna happen.


----------



## YNWA14

phisherman said:


> It could be that the knee issue he had, which he's having surgery for, may have affected his play.



It's possible, though you'd have thought it would have come up before now if that was something that was bothering him before. Or maybe it did and I missed it.


Live in the Now said:


> Morata gets to play with Hazard so what do you think's gonna happen.



Lacazette gets to play with some pretty creative players too. Ozil, Sanchez/Mkhi and Ramsey. Also most of Morata's assists have come from Azpilicueta. I think it's kind of lazy to just say 'Hazard plays'. Nobody in the PL has created more chances for others than Ozil since he joined the PL.


----------



## Evilo

That's not how it works.
Hazard dribbles and creates havoc. Defenses focus on him.

Don't think many focus on lazy Ozil.
And again, the whole Arsenal team is a mess, especially tactically. When Lacazette was scoring, he wasn't even used. In fact, he was mainly played when he wasn't scoring.


----------



## YNWA14

Saying 'that's not how it works' doesn't really hold water. There are many ways to create goals, and relying on someone else to draw all the attention so you can poach isn't the only one (and it's certainly not an indication of being effective, nor is it how Morata has scored most of his goals). Ozil and Hazard are very different players, but Ozil creates more chances consistently for others (and that's ignoring that he was also playing with Sanchez who is more similar to Hazard).


----------



## Evilo

No, Ozil doesn't create more other chances because you continued to ignore my post and not understand how football works.
And since you mentionned Sanchez, I'll remind you of that stat : when Wenger started Ozil+Sanchez+Lacazette (meaning more space for all 3), Arsenal only lost one game and that was the De Gea show that Arsenal should have won ten times.
So yes, when Wenger showed a glimpse of logic, Lacazette was productive, because he had space created by the other two.

Morata had plenty of space and his team was never a tactical mess.


----------



## Live in the Now

Curtinho said:


> Saying 'that's not how it works' doesn't really hold water. There are many ways to create goals, and relying on someone else to draw all the attention so you can poach isn't the only one (and it's certainly not an indication of being effective, nor is it how Morata has scored most of his goals). Ozil and Hazard are very different players, but Ozil creates more chances consistently for others (and that's ignoring that he was also playing with Sanchez who is more similar to Hazard).




There's a huge difference in quality between Hazard and Ozil, especially these days. Hazard is more capable of creating damage, but the two teams have completely different tactics.


----------



## bleedblue1223

Hazard is more of a finisher of the chances that he creates. Silly discussion regardless.

Lacazette and Morata haven't been as bad as people on here want to believe.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri




----------



## KJS14

Live in the Now said:


> There's a huge difference in quality between Hazard and Ozil, especially these days. Hazard is more capable of creating damage, but the two teams have completely different tactics.




There is a huge difference...because Ozil creates more chances for his teammates. No one here was trying to say he's the better player. Apparently Ozil is getting underrated around here.

Also, Ozil is very effective at creating space for his teammates, just not in the same way that Hazard does.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Barney Ronay with a great article about Spurs perceived media bias.

It’s time to ignore the sceptics and take delight in this Tottenham team | Barney Ronay


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Tottenham to offer Mauricio Pochettino new big-money deal to lead Spurs into £850m stadium as suitors come circling


----------



## Mr Plow

If Poch was offered the job at PSG do you think he would leave Spurs for it?


----------



## Cassano

Mr Plow said:


> If Poch was offered the job at PSG do you think he would leave Spurs for it?



Nope. I think he wants to win some silverware at Spurs before leaving.


----------



## Mr Plow

All Might said:


> Nope. I think he wants to win some silverware at Spurs before leaving.




I think he does too but the allure of managing your former team who are now top 5 in the world must be tempting.


----------



## Havre

Pochettino isn't stupid. He might move to PSG for then to be fired 7 months later. Better managers than him have failed when moving to a new club. Will he then be able to find a new "project" as good as Spurs?

I don't expect him to stay forever, but as long as Spurs are improving I think he'll stay at least a couple of more years regardless what he gets offered somewhere else. I certainly don't think he is dreaming of coaching PSG right now. Neither do I believe he would be a good choice for PSG. His strengths are creating enthusiasm and instilling players with confidence. As for egos he usually kicks them out. And he isn't very good at game management.


----------



## Live in the Now

Better finisher than Suarez was. The goal conversion there is insane.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Oh, I'm sure that Pochettino and Neymar would get along really well.


----------



## Baxterman

Mr Plow said:


> I think he does too but the allure of managing your former team who are now top 5 in the world must be tempting.




I think it is debatable if they are top 5 but does he have a strong attachment to PSG.

I mean your former team has a lot of different meanings and just having played for a team doesn't necessarily mean you want to head back there. It seems like he spent a fairly short time there especially compared to Espanyol. I mean he has more games at Spurs than he does at PSG.

Also I am not sure that would be the most appealing job seeing how they fired Blanc after decent success and would now be firing Emery in short order. Seems like the stakes there would be fairly high, which might appeal to some, but also not necessarily be the best choice for a guy with (likely) other decent options.


----------



## Evilo

Poch has stated many times he loved PSG and would love to coach there.


----------



## Evilo

Pochettino : « Entraîner le PSG ? Ça fait partie de mes rêves »

"Part of his dreams". "I try to watch all their games".


----------



## Savant

Evilo said:


> Poch has stated many times he loved PSG and would love to coach there.



He is in Paris or Madrid next season. 

Both are going to need new coaches and will make godfather offers.


----------



## Live in the Now

The simple fact is that unless Spurs pay him the same wage that managers like Klopp, Pep, and Mourinho get, he will leave. And they get a LOT.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Savant said:


> He is in Paris or Madrid next season.
> 
> Both are going to need new coaches and will make godfather offers.




Nah.


----------



## Savant

Big Kahuna said:


> Nah.



We will see. 

There aren’t a whole lot of other places those teams can go. Especially PSG. They can’t make another Emery type hire.


----------



## Baxterman

Evilo said:


> Poch has stated many times he loved PSG and would love to coach there.




Well I thought he was a lot better than that but I guess not. I still think the nature of the position likely holds him back at this point especially if Real Madrid is a possibility but I have long ago realized that these guys wishes and decisions are much, much different than the decisions I would make.


----------



## Baxterman

Savant said:


> We will see.
> 
> There aren’t a whole lot of other places those teams can go. Especially PSG. They can’t make another Emery type hire.




Wouldn't Poch be an Emery type hire?


----------



## Baxterman

Live in the Now said:


> The simple fact is that unless Spurs pay him the same wage that managers like Klopp, Pep, and Mourinho get, he will leave. And they get a LOT.




Klopp makes similar money to Pep and Mourinho??

Talk about a terrible return on investment.

Edit: Ok I see he doesn't make as much but is paid more than Poch.


----------



## hatterson

It's *possible* that he simply loves Spurs enough that he stays there despite betters offers from elsewhere. I wouldn't bet on it though.


----------



## Savant

Baxterman said:


> Wouldn't Poch be an Emery type hire?



Nah. Emery has more trophies. 

But Poch’s profile is really, really high. He will be the hottest name. Emery was a consolation prize. Sevilla is about his level and he has had some bad stops.


----------



## Baxterman

Savant said:


> Nah. Emery has more trophies.
> 
> But Poch’s profile is really, really high. He will be the hottest name. Emery was a consolation prize. Sevilla is about his level and he has had some bad stops.




Fair enough I assumed you were talking about going with a young, upcoming manager from a "lower" tier club as opposed to going with one of the more established "star" managers (Mourinho, Pep, Ancelloti etc.)


----------



## hatterson

Baxterman said:


> Klopp makes similar money to Pep and Mourinho??
> 
> Talk about a terrible return on investment.




Mourinho probably makes more, but I'm not sure why he's been dramatically more successful than Klopp.

He won an EL, Klopp made a final. Both have very similar league finishes.


----------



## Baxterman

hatterson said:


> It's *possible* that he simply loves Spurs enough that he stays there despite betters offers from elsewhere. I wouldn't bet on it though.




I think he goes for a better offer for sure I think the debate would be what he considers a better offer.

Is it purely money? Does PSG seemingly not being happy with managers and having extremely high, maybe unreasonable, expectations affect him? Is now the time to go to Real or better to wait? How much control does he have at Tottenham versus what he may have to give up at other places?

If I was a betting man i would bet on him going at some point but I am not sure I am convinced it will be this summer.


----------



## Baxterman

hatterson said:


> Mourinho probably makes more, but I'm not sure why he's been dramatically more successful than Klopp.
> 
> He won an EL, Klopp made a final. Both have very similar league finishes.




Yes in the short time Mourinho has been here he has been marginally better but at least with him you are bringing in a history of success that Klopp hasn't come close to.


----------



## Live in the Now

We know why he said that.


----------



## hatterson

Baxterman said:


> Yes in the short time Mourinho has been here he has been marginally better but at least with him you are bringing in a history of success that Klopp hasn't come close to.




Mourinho definitely has a better track record than Klopp (or almost any other manager), but if you're talking about return on investment past accomplishments don't have much value.


----------



## Live in the Now

5-0 in CL knockout yesterday, third place, CL qualification last year, league cup final, and Europa League Final. Signing players who definitely wouldn't have come there. Definitely worth it.


----------



## Baxterman

hatterson said:


> Mourinho definitely has a better track record than Klopp (or almost any other manager), but if you're talking about return on investment past accomplishments don't have much value.




I think past experience helps, especially in the league. I think Mourinho having won the EPL title and CL titles helps him currently. Now it doesn't mean he will do it again and we can see with Wenger that it can matter little at all but I think with the better results and more reason to think he will have better results going forward that it does matter some.


----------



## Baxterman

Live in the Now said:


> 5-0 in CL knockout yesterday, third place, CL qualification last year, league cup final, and Europa League Final. Signing players who definitely wouldn't have come there. Definitely worth it.




LOL

a 5-0 fluke win is worth overpaying a garbage manager? 

Ok then.


----------



## hatterson

You know you've lost the plot when you have a United fan defending a Liverpool manager against your attacks....


----------



## Baxterman

hatterson said:


> You know you've lost the plot when you have a United fan defending a Liverpool manager against your attacks....




What attacks?


----------



## Live in the Now

I like how it always turns into the same thing with you. Stop derailing threads and that isn't a suggestion.


----------



## Baxterman

Live in the Now said:


> I like how it always turns into the same thing with you. Stop derailing threads and that isn't a suggestion.




I didn't derail anything we are talking about managers here. I didn't even bring Klopp up in the first place.


----------



## Havre

Live in the Now said:


> We know why he said that.




We do?


----------



## Live in the Now

Baxterman said:


> I didn't derail anything we are talking about managers here. I didn't even bring Klopp up in the first place.




Yeah you changed subject from how much managers are paid and Poch to Klopp. If you don't like being told to stop derailing threads you can just leave.

It's far from the only time and it needs to end.


Now back on the subject it wouldn't be very surprising if Poch signed a contract to stay at Tottenham, but he will be making demands that certain players are given the contracts they want.


----------



## Evilo

Baxterman said:


> Well I thought he was a lot better than that but I guess not. I still think the nature of the position likely holds him back at this point especially if Real Madrid is a possibility but I have long ago realized that these guys wishes and decisions are much, much different than the decisions I would make.



A lot better than that?
LOL because Spurs are so much better than PSG? WTF are you talking about?
Pochettino played in Paris and loved it here, like most players do. He has fond memories of his stay and has kept contact with a club he loved.


----------



## Baxterman

Evilo said:


> A lot better than that?
> LOL because Spurs are so much better than PSG? WTF are you talking about?
> Pochettino played in Paris and loved it here, like most players do. He has fond memories of his stay and has kept contact with a club he loved.




I am talking about Paris being a horrible place and PSG not being worth dreaming about. That's all. I didn't say he couldn't have those thoughts just that I respect him less for it.

Not everybody has to love PSG. 

I did say that I understand that footballers/managers would make much different decisions than I would.


----------



## Evilo

Paris is a horrible place? PSG is not worth dreaming about? 

LOL.

Paris is arguably one of the most beautiful cities in the world. Man, London is crappy compared to Paris.
When you have money, Paris is probably one of the top 5 cities in the world (certainly different when you don't have much money).

Not everybody has to love PSG? Poch LOVED PSG when he was there. Way before QSI BTW. Just about every former PSG player loves Paris and the club. Ronaldinho, Rai, Valdo, Ricardo, Djorkaeff, and so many others, check their quotes. They all kept links with Paris because they loved it there.
Heck, Ronaldo (the brazilian one) stated recently he regreted not playing for Paris.
In countries like Brazil, PSG is probably the third most important team after Real and Barca.


----------



## Live in the Now

He's just gonna want the same things other top managers want. Assurances his players won't leave over wages. I am not sure Levy will do that but if he does it shouldn't be a problem.

The problem is basically any manager would want to coach the players at PSG, so it will always be in the back of his mind.


----------



## Baxterman

Evilo said:


> Paris is a horrible place? PSG is not worth dreaming about?
> 
> LOL.
> 
> Paris is arguably one of the most beautiful cities in the world. Man, London is crappy compared to Paris.
> When you have money, Paris is probably one of the top 5 cities in the world (certainly different when you don't have much money).
> 
> Not everybody has to love PSG? Poch LOVED PSG when he was there. Way before QSI BTW. Just about every former PSG player loves Paris and the club. Ronaldinho, Rai, Valdo, Ricardo, Djorkaeff, and so many others, check their quotes. They all kept links with Paris because they loved it there.
> Heck, Ronaldo (the brazilian one) stated recently he regreted not playing for Paris.
> In countries like Brazil, PSG is probably the third most important team after Real and Barca.




That is just listing other peoples opinion on it, that does nothing to change what I think of the city or club.

I didn't say that he would hate it or regret it just that I lose respect for him for wanting to go. 

Listing what a bunch of former players think about it means nothing.


----------



## Evilo

Sure it means nothing... Or it means players love the city and club.
You know. Like Poch.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Live in the Now said:


> The problem is basically any manager would want to coach the players at PSG, so it will always be in the back of his mind.




Poch would want to clean house first. Big time I'd imagine. Any hint of an attitude or a rather large ego, sayonara.


----------



## East Coast Bias




----------



## SJSharks72

Quick question for everyone. Especially United fans. Has United gotten the full Paul Pogba? I’m curious because in every game yeah he looks good but there are so many games where you just feel he could give a little bit more. Is the wanting more the real Pogba or is it when he is taking over games?


----------



## hatterson

SJSharks39 said:


> Quick question for everyone. Especially United fans. Has United gotten the full Paul Pogba? I’m curious because in every game yeah he looks good but there are so many games where you just feel he could give a little bit more. Is the wanting more the real Pogba or is it when he is taking over games?




Not consistently.

He started the season on fire but hasn't looked the same since his injury issues. A couple flashes here and there, but not enough.

He's still been great, don't get me wrong, but he's capable of much more. Although, that's probably going to be the story of Pogba's career.


----------



## East Coast Bias

It doesn't help him that there's absolutely no gameplan and they basically play a pickup game every week.

Kick it around, stand and kick it. Don't move out of your spot cause when we lose it you have to defend!


----------



## Havre

East Coast Bias said:


> It doesn't help him that there's absolutely no gameplan and they basically play a pickup game every week.
> 
> Kick it around, stand and kick it. Don't move out of your spot cause when we lose it you have to defend!




Well. Got to expect that he is somewhat able to adjust as well.

Funny how you spend that much money on a midfield player for then having to tailor make the rest of your team for that player to look more than decent on average.

He is just not very intelligent off the ball. He could and should perform much better even if he isn't that good of a fit to the system.

Not that I disagree that he would have done better in a system more suited to him.


----------



## East Coast Bias

Havre said:


> Well. Got to expect that he is somewhat able to adjust as well.
> 
> Funny how you spend that much money on a midfield player for then having to tailor make the rest of your team for that player to look more than decent on average.
> 
> He is just not very intelligent off the ball. He could and should perform much better even if he isn't that good of a fit to the system.
> 
> Not that I disagree that he would have done better in a system more suited to him.




Send Erickson over to Mourinho and see how that plays out.

It's about maximizing your best players. You can criticize Pogba for play at times, fine. But if you're gonna spend all that money on him, then tell him to go sit in front of a terrible CB pairing next to Matic, dont' complain about his lack of goals and assists.

There is no off the ball movement. At all. None. Watch them. 

I've had enough of Jose. Pissing away all the talent on this team cause he's terrified of being opened up.


----------



## hatterson

"lack of goals and assists"

He's still scored 3 goals and has 9 assists (3rd in PL) in 17 games. Only ones with more assists are Sane (22 games) and De Bruyne (27 games).

No, he hasn't been playing like a world class player, which you should expect if you pay $100+M for someone, but it's not like he's been terrible aside from a few games.


----------



## Havre

East Coast Bias said:


> Send Erickson over to Mourinho and see how that plays out.
> 
> It's about maximizing your best players. You can criticize Pogba for play at times, fine. But if you're gonna spend all that money on him, then tell him to go sit in front of a terrible CB pairing next to Matic, dont' complain about his lack of goals and assists.
> 
> There is no off the ball movement. At all. None. Watch them.
> 
> I've had enough of Jose. Pissing away all the talent on this team cause he's terrified of being opened up.




I do watch them.

I agree in possession he needs more help to shine, but his biggest problem is when Utd are either defending or someone else in red are in possession. Pogba has no idea what to do. It seems like he can only be effective if you tell him exactly where and when to run - and make it simple (exaggerating a bit as he is still a good player - just not an excellent one).

He'll improve the day Jose is sacked/leaves, but I would be very surprised if he ever lives up to his hype.


----------



## SJSharks72

What do you think we could do to help him? Would changing to a 4-3-3 help? Obviously we need basically a whole new defense except possibly Shaw and Bailly. Maybe get someone a little more athletic in Fabinho this summer.

Sanchez-Luk-Martial
Pogba-Mata
Matic/Fabinho?


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri




----------



## hatterson

Out of curiosity, how are those measured? Wonder how much is affected by team systems. Is Ederson really the best distributor or is he a good distributor who is in a system designed around the goalie distributing the ball.


----------



## robertmac43

Arsenal definitely helped De Gea get such a high Shot-Stopper rating..... :p


----------



## Evilo

Big Kahuna said:


>




This thing contradicts your opinion of Lloris.


----------



## Evilo

hatterson said:


> Out of curiosity, how are those measured? Wonder how much is affected by team systems. Is Ederson really the best distributor or is he a good distributor who is in a system designed around the goalie distributing the ball.



Pretty much.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Evilo said:


> This thing contradicts your opinion of Lloris.




I was rather surprised to see him that high up. Guess it's a case of me having high standards. I've seen what he is capable of which makes me think that he could have done so, so much better the majority of times he lets in goals.


----------



## Havre

Got to say the few times I have seen Pope that chart looks fairly correct.

I see a guy called Sam Jackson made it. Assuming he has studied all situations they have been involved in.

DDG has according to him "saved" 16 goals compared to average. Lloris is 2nd with 6. I guess in that sense it fits my view that Lloris used to be close to on par with DDG - now he isn´t any longer.


----------



## YNWA14

Roberto Firmino will NOT face action after investigation into racism claim

Firmino's statement:



> “As difficult as it has been to remain publicly silent, given the serious and damaging nature of what it was claimed I said during the game, I did so to demonstrate my respect for the process and to allow the issue to be investigated in the most thorough way.
> “It is critical for football that tackling racism and all forms of discrimination is taken extremely seriously. As someone who has experienced racist abuse during my life, I know how damaging and hurtful it can be.
> “Now the process is concluded, I would like to place on record, for the avoidance of any doubt, I did not say the word, or a variation of the word, that was claimed and subsequently reported in the media. I did not use any language that referenced race. I did not – and would never – reference a person’s skin colour or culture, by means of insult, during a dispute or an argument.
> “There is no place for discrimination on a football pitch, or anywhere else in life for that matter.
> “I am pleased after exhaustive reviews of all the evidence, in this specific incident, the matter is resolved.”


----------



## Fro

Big Kahuna said:


>




Does that make lloris the best all around?


----------



## Havre

Fro said:


> Does that make lloris the best all around?




No. As I wrote earlier it makes DDG the best - by some distance.


----------



## bluesfan94

Fro said:


> Does that make lloris the best all around?



If you weigh shot stopping and distribution equally. This also doesn’t deal with setting up a defense and handling crosses/through balls.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

bluesfan94 said:


> If you weigh shot stopping and distribution equally. *This also doesn’t deal with setting up a defense* and handling crosses/through balls.




I feel that Lloris is superior to any other PL goalkeeper at doing this.


----------



## bluesfan94

Big Kahuna said:


> I feel that Lloris is superior to any other PL goalkeeper at doing this.



It’s hard to know because it’s hard to tell what communication is coming from whom.


----------



## Deficient Mode

hatterson said:


> Out of curiosity, how are those measured? Wonder how much is affected by team systems. Is Ederson really the best distributor or is he a good distributor who is in a system designed around the goalie distributing the ball.




Interesting to see Sky Sports put their name on that. I saw a Sky article a month ago that painted a very different picture regarding shot-stopping. Doubt the xG numbers have changed a lot since then. But it sounds like that wasn't the only consideration that went into the author's rankings. I love passing goalies but I doubt any difference in distribution will make up for the gulf in goals saved between de Gea and everyone else.


----------



## Havre

It doesn't. And the guy that made that chart didn't think so either.

For DDG the numbers are actually quite similar. 13.8 vs. 16. Also Pope scores highly on both.

I think Lloris is too high on that first chart. He scores far lower on the second Sky article. That said - I don't watch every game every weekend for all teams so difficult to "benchmark" Lloris in a relative way for me. My view on Lloris this year is that he has cost Spurs a couple of goals compared to what one should expect (compared to Lloris from last season there is no doubt that is the case - compared to "average" is trickier). The second Sky article (DM's) says exactly that.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

I found the article in which the graph was posted:

Is criticism of Liverpool goalkeeper Loris Karius unfair?

Interesting to see how the xG numbers differ in both articles.


----------



## YNWA14

Big Kahuna said:


> I found the article in which the graph was posted:
> 
> Is criticism of Liverpool goalkeeper Loris Karius unfair?
> 
> Interesting to see how the xG numbers differ in both articles.



Interesting article.

I think it's important to note, and this article sort of has, that keepers can often be insulated by their system. As it says in the article Karius ranks #1 in interceptions from outside of the box which is incredibly important to Liverpool given their style of play and the extra pressure that it puts on the defence and keeper. De Gea and Lloris are obviously very good goalies but they are also partially insulated by teams that do take care of the defensive side of things first (which is why I find it interesting that it says Lloris has faced the highest average difficulty in shots this season) and focus on offence 2nd (much more extreme in United's case). Positioning and reading of the play are both affected by this and contribute to stopping good chances (not taking anything away from de Gea especially, who makes ridiculous saves).


----------



## The Abusement Park

Well Mourinho’s fighting with the medical staff again... good lord. Get the f*** out of my club.


----------



## S E P H

A Mourinho team not scoring a goal? How original...

Post meant for Champion League's thread.


----------



## Deficient Mode

The Abusement Park said:


> Well Mourinho’s fighting with the medical staff again... good lord. Get the **** out of my club.




I thought only Pep did this tho


----------



## The Abusement Park

Deficient Mode said:


> I thought only Pep did this tho




When have I ever said that? I’m speaking Mou specifically.


----------



## VEGASKING

I would have loved for Arsenal to sign Eva Carneiro but the players already spend enough time on the treatment table.


----------



## Deficient Mode

The Abusement Park said:


> When have I ever said that? I’m speaking Mou specifically.




Wasn't taking shots at you specifically, sorry.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Deficient Mode said:


> Wasn't taking shots at you specifically, sorry.




I was like when have I ever talked shit about Peps antics? Lol

Mou on the other hand...


----------



## hatterson

S E P H said:


> A Mourinho team not scoring a goal? How original...
> 
> Post meant for Champion League's thread.




It’s fine. Just pretend you were pre-posting it for Sunday when the same thing happens.


----------



## S E P H

hatterson said:


> It’s fine. Just pretend you were pre-posting it for Sunday when the same thing happens.



That's solid. On Sunday we're going to allow 7 so I feel ya.


----------



## Burner Account




----------



## BKIslandersFan

kyle evs48 said:


>





Someone @ this to Arsenal Fan TV!


----------



## les Habs

Bellerin is a turd. If you actually look at his comments in general about ArsenalFanTv he's correct. However when he says they're profiting off of Arsenal doing poorly he's full of shit. For starters they're clearly supporters who celebrate every time Arsenal win and what's more that's exactly what Bellerin is doing. His above comments about Sanchez are awful too. Completely fit a guy who left for money. Wouldn't take him on a Bosman if he agreed to play for free.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Tottenham set to play early games of 2018/19 season away from home as final touches made to new Spurs stadium


----------



## Live in the Now

Blatantly stolen from somewhere else.

20 Games With Coutinho: W: 8 D: 10 L: 2, 1.70 points per game
20 Games Without: W: 15 D: 2 L: 3, 2.35 points per game


----------



## YNWA14

Premier League, FA agree to implement winter break

This is going to be good for the PL teams in Europe IMO.



Live in the Now said:


> Blatantly stolen from somewhere else.
> 
> 20 Games With Coutinho: W: 8 D: 10 L: 2, 1.70 points per game
> 20 Games Without: W: 15 D: 2 L: 3, 2.35 points per game



Isn't this basically what I was saying in the transfer thread when people were torching me for saying we didn't need him?


----------



## hatterson

Biggest issue with a winter break is the extra games the league cup adds. For the biggest of teams, that's not as big a deal since most of those games until the last couple rounds are done by rotation players, but for smaller squads that just means extra load on first team players elsewhere in the season.

Honestly I wouldn't complain if the league cup went away.


----------



## robertmac43

I am not excited for this City rematch tomorrow...... Not at all! Score Prediction 3-1 City


----------



## Havre

hatterson said:


> Biggest issue with a winter break is the extra games the league cup adds. For the biggest of teams, that's not as big a deal since most of those games until the last couple rounds are done by rotation players, but for smaller squads that just means extra load on first team players elsewhere in the season.
> 
> Honestly I wouldn't complain if the league cup went away.




Yeah. Such a stupid tournament. But people don’t like to give away money (less games). 

I don’t know if this is true, but I’m assuming a full break will have a positive effect on players’ fitness even if it means a slightly more compact schedule outside of the break.

I think they are removing some games though. Can’t remember. Replays or something. Can’t be bothered looking it up.


----------



## Mr Plow

Live in the Now said:


> Blatantly stolen from somewhere else.
> 
> 20 Games With Coutinho: W: 8 D: 10 L: 2, 1.70 points per game
> 20 Games Without: W: 15 D: 2 L: 3, 2.35 points per game




Legit feel like the only thing we're missing with Coutinho give are his free kicks. When Salah stepped up to take that one on Saturday I knew it was going into the wall as soon as he started his run up. The attack is much more fluid though and the team seems to break even faster on the counter. All in all it's been a tidy bit of business thus far.


----------



## Havre

As if a 20 + 20 game sample shows anything.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Felt like sharing some stats of Spurs play with and without Alderweireld.

STATWITH TOBYWITHOUTGames Played1726Win %53%62%Lose %17%7%Avg Goals Scored1.92.1Avg Goals Conceded1.00.8Possession58%64%Shots Conceded per game9.67.8Shots on Target Conceded per game3.23.1Corners Conceded4.83.9
[TBODY]
[/TBODY]
[TBODY]
[/TBODY]I'm not trying to undermine Alderweireld here, just because there is a chance that he may leave this summer. He is still one of the best defenders in the league. That being said, his injury has been a bit of a blessing in disguise. We pretty much never used a back four anymore when he was healthy. His injury forced Poch to go back to playing with a back four, and we instantly played much better. Especially Eriksen. I like the tactical flexibility a back three can bring, and it has produced some of our best games this season (Liverpool at Wembley, both Madrid games for example), but I think we should stick with a back four.

Our stats being down with Toby could also be because of our early struggles at Wembley, something that I feel is a non-issue now.


----------



## Live in the Now

I'm not entirely surprised with those stats, because as you said, the back four has been pretty good firstly and I think Sanchez has slotted in quite well. But back three is probably not a great long term tactic even though Conte made it work for a full season. I do think those stats are quite meaningful in fact, same as the Coutinho ones. Sometimes a team finds they don't need a player as much as they thought they did, or that having a certain player cause their tactics to be less effective.

If Alderweireld leaves I expect a similar profile signing to Sanchez, although it does appear there will be no young CB quite as costly as him this summer. Tah would be a great target obviously.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Live in the Now said:


> I'm not entirely surprised with those stats, because as you said, the back four has been pretty good firstly and I think Sanchez has slotted in quite well. But back three is probably not a great long term tactic even though Conte made it work for a full season. I do think those stats are quite meaningful in fact, same as the Coutinho ones. Sometimes a team finds they don't need a player as much as they thought they did, or that having a certain player cause their tactics to be less effective.
> 
> If Alderweireld leaves I expect a similar profile signing to Sanchez, although it does appear there will be no young CB quite as costly as him this summer. Tah would be a great target obviously.




Funnily enough, I've seen some links to Tah in these past days. I'm surprised that Poch wouldn't prefer someone who is left-footed if this is the case. He is quite adamant to play centre-halves on the same side as their footedness, whilst our only left-footed CB is Vertonghen. As for right-footed ones we would have Sanchez, Alderweireld/Tah, Dier, Foyth and Carter-Vickers.

Then again, I can't imagine that the market for talented left-footed centre-halves is too big.


----------



## Havre

Sample size is too small, Toby didn't play at his highest level when healthy this season and when we played with a back three Pochettino usually went with a three man central midfield - which doesn't suit Spurs.

With the back four Pochettino has gone back to the flat 2 central midfield. Dembele has started to hit some form etc.

Still think our best formation is 3-4-3 with a flat 2 central midfield. And with Alderweireld playing centrally - not on the right side. Sanchez is much more suited to play one on one out wide.

Sanchez - Alderweireld - Vertonghen
Trippier - Dembele - Dier - Rose
Alli/Son - Kane - Eriksen

Sanchez is a bit all over the place, but with Alderweireld behind him that is less of a problem. He is athletic enough to handle most forwards running down the outside channel. Trippier isn't good enough defensively, but he has to be one of the most underrated players in the league. Not because he is very good, but he is serviceable.

That is a much better team than our current one in 4-2-3-1 in my opinion. But it requires Pochettino to play the back 3 differently and you got to have Rose fit as Davies isn't suited to play the role as a winger when in possession (Davies is far more effective in a back 4 when he has a winger in front of him - or someone drifting in leaving him a bit more space).

I really hope Alderweireld stays, but I'm not sure if he'll ever play at his best again. He surprised me, and most others, by taking that next step after joining Spurs. Is he regressing a bit back to the mean? He didn't look as good before the injury this season. Will he be able to shake that completely off? He is not 21 any longer. Looked horrible in that cup game (even if he clearly wasn't fully fit and the pitch was crap).

Break the bank to keep Kane and Eriksen. By all means give Alderweireld a good offer, but losing him is not the end of the world. Losing Kane or Eriksen would be far far worse. They should be the best paid players in the team longer term.


----------



## S E P H

I have no sympathy for Sanchez since he wanted out and wanted to go to Man United. So another offencive player struggling under Mourinho is shocking to say the least.


----------



## Prntscrn

Premier League save percentages : Karius - 68%...Courtois - 68%....Lloris 67%....Stat via @LFCDaytrippers

Mignolet is last with 57.4

Decent upgrade


----------



## YNWA14

Karius has been fantastic. He's also statistically the best sweeper in the league. Hope he can kick on from here.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

YNWA14 said:


> Karius has been fantastic. He's also statistically the *best sweeper* in the league. Hope he can kick on from here.




If this is true, that would be news to me.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Yuck. Having such a hard-on for the acoustics of the stadium but pricing out those who usually are more vocal.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Kane out for somewhere around a month. Pretty much no chance he is fit against Chelsea.


----------



## Edo

Alexis Sanchez sure has been great for Manchester United.


----------



## YNWA14

Kind of a neat chart. For reference I think this is from the beginning of the 16/17 season.


----------



## les Habs

How one interprets such data is far more interesting. Also, Azpilicueta has the most minutes on that chart.


----------



## YNWA14

Yeah I didn't make it not sure why Skriniar was highlighted (probably just an oversight).

As always statistics are not to be taken alone and require context but there's still some good and interesting information in there.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Happy for Fazio.


----------



## les Habs

YNWA14 said:


> Yeah I didn't make it not sure why Skriniar was highlighted (probably just an oversight).
> 
> As always statistics are not to be taken alone and require context but there's still some good and interesting information in there.




I think it's a nice resource to have, but I would also want to know if the person who compiled it did the averages right. By that I mean I'm not questioning the numbers because I don't think they jive with my perception, but rather because plenty of people I run into calculate averages wrong in such a scenario.


----------



## Live in the Now

Lol how to defend Salah at all. Puts the defender straight on his ass when running past him.


----------



## Live in the Now

Amazing sequence of passes leading to a second Salah goal. Golden Boot incoming.


----------



## Cassano

Not sure if Robertson or Robertson Carlos


----------



## Live in the Now

Good to know Liverpool won't have to waste money on fullbacks for at least 5 seasons. Considering price especially Robertson turned out to be one of the season's best signings. Kevin Stewart + 2m.


----------



## Prntscrn

Salah.. What a f***ing player he has become. He started of the season very well but the development under the season has been something else


----------



## Live in the Now

Prntscrn said:


> Salah.. What a ****ing player he has become. He started of the season very well but the development under the season has been something else




He's one of the best players going period, 34 goals in 40 games now. I think only one's from a penalty and he's had no hat tricks, so this is consistent impact. Will be devastated when he leaves in a few seasons.


----------



## YNWA14

Poor man's Timo Werner tbh.


----------



## booyakasha

Edo said:


> Alexis Sanchez sure has been great for Manchester United.




the look zee _chosen_ one has when watching piano man give up the ball....over and over, .....

and over again.


----------



## Live in the Now

Bloody hell that's a good finish. Great pass too. Salah should be player of the year.


----------



## YNWA14

Firmino and Salah is a match made in heaven.


----------



## Live in the Now

Even for him that last one is outrageous. Four guys defending with their lives and couldn't do anything to stop him.


----------



## Shrimper

Salah has to be POTY


----------



## YNWA14

Remember when if Salah was a better finisher he could score 40 goals? Pipe dreams.


----------



## Live in the Now

FOUR GOALS.


----------



## Prntscrn

Finding bargains in Serie A seems to be the way to go for Liverpool


----------



## Shrimper

Could he break the Premier League record?


----------



## Deficient Mode

YNWA14 said:


> Remember when if Salah was a better finisher he could score 40 goals? Pipe dreams.




He could score 40 goals in one match imo.


----------



## Chimaera

Liverpool owe Roma another 60.


----------



## Luigi Habs

I love Salah. What a player.


----------



## Prntscrn

Shrimper said:


> Could he break the Premier League record?




He needs what, 4 more goals in 7 games? I think 31 is the record since Premier League has played 38 games a season


----------



## Cassano

I believe only Suarez and Henry were the prior players with 25g+ and 10+ assists in a season. Salah is 1 assist shy of joining that mark.

How does Salah's 2017-18 compare with Suarez 2013-14?


----------



## JeffreyLFC

Live in the Now said:


> FOUR GOALS.



This is Austin Matthews good!


----------



## YNWA14

I think the most incredible part of this is that Salah was not used in the same role/way that he's been used at Liverpool before (which could partially explain his questionable finishing in the early goings). Absolute masterstroke by Klopp not only for the buy but for the way he's implemented him as a player in his system.

He's like a Ronaldo/Messi hybrid in the way he plays now (style, not saying he's as good as those two btw). Mostly a poacher who is incredible at finding space and getting into scoring opportunities, As well as lethal on the counter but his close control and finishing are really continuing to improve at an astonishing rate.


----------



## Shrimper

Prntscrn said:


> He needs what, 4 more goals in 7 games? I think 31 is the record since Premier League has played 38 games a season





Highest is 34 I think.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Harry will have to be charitable and share the golden boot, at least for this season.


----------



## Prntscrn

Shrimper said:


> Highest is 34 I think.




That's correct but they played 42 games a season then. Just looked it up the record for a 38 games season is 31 goals. Shearer, Ronaldo and Suarez.


----------



## Live in the Now

All Might said:


> I believe only Suarez and Henry were the prior players with 25g+ and 10+ assists in a season. Salah is 1 assist shy of joining that mark.
> 
> How does Salah's 2017-18 compare with Suarez 2013-14?




Salah has been better to me. Part of the reason Suarez was so spectacular that season, and the reason they challenged for the title in the first place, was that the big clubs were in worse shape than they are now. The Liverpool team itself was actually worse the year they challenged for the title. The difference between Salah and other players seems to be that Salah is aware of his capabilities and almost never shoots the ball from distance or out of frustration. Suarez on the other hand was more spectacular in terms of doing things that seemed ridiculous for the whole season whereas Salah is now doing that in the late stages of the season and clearly still improving. Suarez also got even better upon going to Barcelona. 

The commentators can't help but talk about him potentially leaving, but when Liverpool sell players they have the tendency to ask for a lot, and I'm pretty sure that they'd ask for what PSG paid for Neymar, so they should probably save that talk until after next season because it's actually getting really annoying. The teams with that kind of money also committed themselves to other options. Salah is also quite devoutly religious and has a wife and daughter who speak English so it could be difficult to move them to another country.



His humility astounds me for someone as good as he is. It has been very difficult for a lot of players to keep that mentality when playing like that.

If City can manage to lose some games to mid-table teams next season I think Liverpool will be ready to challenge. Salah has gotten better as the season has gone on and could get even better than this honestly. I know his goal conversion is outrageous but that's related to when he actually decides to shoot. I believe he now leads Europe for the Golden Shoe.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Live in the Now said:


> *If City can manage to lose some games to mid-table teams next season* I think Liverpool will be ready to challenge.




Good luck with that.


----------



## Stray Wasp

All Might said:


> I believe only Suarez and Henry were the prior players with 25g+ and 10+ assists in a season. Salah is 1 assist shy of joining that mark.
> 
> How does Salah's 2017-18 compare with Suarez 2013-14?




I guess that statistic is another one that applies to 38 game seasons only. Shearer is credited by the Premier League's website with 34 goals and 13 assists for Blackburn in their title-winning 1994/95 season.


----------



## YNWA14

Suarez was absolutely better than Salah. He did a lot more and had a lot less help.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

YNWA14 said:


> Suarez was absolutely better than Salah. He did a lot more and had a lot less help.




Couldn't agree more.


----------



## JunglePete

I also say Suarez was all around better than Salah. Salah has a certain Firmino(and Mane). When Suarez was in Liverpool, it was basically a one-man team.


----------



## Edo

Suarez took a bunch of nobodies to the top(near). Pretty easy as to which season was better.


----------



## Hesher

Looks like Mourinho's usual 3rd season meltdown is coming a year earlier this time.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Well, he's 2nd in the league (and no manager on earth would have United above that this year) and in the FA Cup semifinal. The CL exit was obviously a setback, but then at the end of the day where you go out doesn't really matter unless you make the Final. Objectively, United's season is no worse and perhaps a touch better than Liverpool's (again depending on how Liverpool end up doing in the CL)..but Liverpool seem to love Klopp and Mourinho is seen like a dude on the edge of the relegation zone. I guess that's what happens when your team always looks like crap even when you're winning..


----------



## les Habs

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Well, he's 2nd in the league (and no manager on earth would have United above that this year) and in the FA Cup semifinal. The CL exit was obviously a setback, but then at the end of the day where you go out doesn't really matter unless you make the Final. Objectively, United's season is no worse and perhaps a touch better than Liverpool's (again depending on how Liverpool end up doing in the CL)..but Liverpool seem to love Klopp and Mourinho is seen like a dude on the edge of the relegation zone. I guess that's what happens when your team always looks like crap even when you're winning..




Which makes this latest outburst even more ridiculous when you consider the timing. It's not like they lost to Brighton and went out of the Cup. It was completely unnecessary to go public and he basically dumped on every player in the squad and on Woodward if you think about it. Completely unnecessary and this coming from a guy who got rid of Mata, de Bruyne, Salah and Lukaku.


----------



## Live in the Now

Edo said:


> Suarez took a bunch of nobodies to the top(near). Pretty easy as to which season was better.




I understand why people think this because Suarez was amazing, but this narrative that he carried the team that far is a false reality that doesn't mesh with the real one. 

1. He missed four games for biting, none of which Liverpool lost.

2. The big wins people remember happened without him having the impact people think he had. The Everton 4-0 was down to Sturridge, the 5-1 against Arsenal was in extremely large part because of Gerrard putting two early set pieces straight on Skrtel's head, and the big City win happened when Coutinho lashed the ball in the back of the net. In the Manchester United game, Sturridge and Allen won two penalties, there was another for handball, and Gerrard smashed two of them in. Against Norwich when Liverpool couldn't mount much attack at all, Sterling smashes the ball in from 25 yards away. puts a ball in for Suarez to tap it in, and scored once more.

There was also the Swansea game where for some reason Henderson smashes the ball in twice when circumstances were such that they should have lost. Another thing people forget is that Sturridge scored in 8 straight games after returning from an injury. The simple fact is that season featured players who were on their way to the top, those obviously being Suarez, Coutinho, and Sterling. Then a player with experience who was having his last outstanding season in Gerrard, and another player in Sturridge who would have been at the top if not for getting hurt all the time. Of course there are also games that Suarez carried the team to victories, that is not in dispute.

In the subsequent season after he left, Sturridge is hurt nearly the whole season, so it's no surprise what happened to Liverpool. They were still only 6 points off 4th and if Sturridge had actually been able to play, who knows what would have happened. Instead he played 12 league games, all of which weren't at 100%, after playing 29 the year before.

Now it's true Salah isn't carrying the current Liverpool team because the team has overall balance, but it's also very clear where they'd be without him. It's also his debut season and on top of that he's managing to play European competition as well and scoring in those games while maintaining his league form.


----------



## Edo

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Well, he's 2nd in the league (and no manager on earth would have United above that this year) and in the FA Cup semifinal. The CL exit was obviously a setback, but then at the end of the day where you go out doesn't really matter unless you make the Final. Objectively, United's season is no worse and perhaps a touch better than Liverpool's (again depending on how Liverpool end up doing in the CL)..but Liverpool seem to love Klopp and Mourinho is seen like a dude on the edge of the relegation zone. I guess that's what happens when your team always looks like crap even when you're winning..




The criticism is fair when you play like Mourinho does. It's embarrassing.


----------



## Baxterman

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Well, he's 2nd in the league (and no manager on earth would have United above that this year) and in the FA Cup semifinal. The CL exit was obviously a setback, but then at the end of the day where you go out doesn't really matter unless you make the Final. Objectively, United's season is no worse and perhaps a touch better than Liverpool's (again depending on how Liverpool end up doing in the CL)..but Liverpool seem to love Klopp and Mourinho is seen like a dude on the edge of the relegation zone. *I guess that's what happens when your team always looks like crap even when you're winning.*.




I think the difference is one fanbase has high standards and expects to be winning trophies and titles not winning the prettiest team out there award, while the other fanbase continually deludes itself into thinking they are much better than they are despite the repeated results showing that they aren't.


----------



## Live in the Now

Baxterman said:


> I think the difference is one fanbase has high standards and expects to be winning trophies and titles not winning the prettiest team out there award, while the other fanbase continually deludes itself into thinking they are much better than they are despite the repeated results showing that they aren't.




Your obsession is cute, but I can't tell which one you actually mean seeing as United has crashed out to Sevilla and Basel in some of the last few seasons. Moreover Manchester United fans do expect good football and got it for years from Ferguson. Of course that's the kind of thing driving some of the criticism.

In any case the criticism about Mourinho is totally fair because he spent a gigantic amount of money and if Klopp doesn't bring results next season, no doubt the knives will be out from some people. Klopp has a minuscule net spend compared to Mourinho in the first place.


----------



## Jussi

les Habs said:


> Which makes this latest outburst even more ridiculous when you consider the timing. It's not like they lost to Brighton and went out of the Cup. It was completely unnecessary to go public and he basically dumped on every player in the squad and on Woodward if you think about it. *Completely unnecessary* and this coming from a guy who got rid of Mata, de Bruyne, Salah and Lukaku.




It wasn't. When players can't compelete easy passes and despite training two days a higher tempo game, after about a half an hour they keep walking or standing around on the pitch, the players should take responsibility for their play. Lukaku didn't call some players out after the Sevilla game without reason. There's more than a few players whose quality of play has dropped greatly from earlier in the season.


----------



## YNWA14

@Live in the Now

I think you're focusing far too much on individual moments and games and not looking at the whole of how Suarez performed vs. what Salah is doing on the field. We've what...played 3 games without Salah this season and had 2 wins and a loss (and the loss was with our B team against Leicester). Salah is essentially pulling a Ronaldo with Liverpool -- his focus is to score goals, for the most part. He rarely tracks back, he is constantly looking for space to get into, and the rest of our team is built to facilitate that with the work they put in -- especially in Firmino's case. It felt kind of like our entire gameplan with Suarez in the side was to get him the ball and hope he could create something out of it. He was tireless, and much more involved in the build up of the play while also creating a ton of space for those around him.

It's late and I could go into a much more detailed post about Suarez's affect on this team but the superlatives being thrown Salah's way are a bit over the top. He's improved his finishing and composure in the final third tremendously. He's incredibly quick and controls the ball well. Again, I think he's got a playstyle that reminds me of a hybrid Ronaldo/Messi. He plays like if Messi played like Ronaldo (CR7) does (though he's obviously not as good as Messi)...if that even makes sense.


----------



## Live in the Now

YNWA14 said:


> @Live in the Now
> 
> I think you're focusing far too much on individual moments and games and not looking at the whole of how Suarez performed vs. what Salah is doing on the field. We've what...played 3 games without Salah this season and had 2 wins and a loss (and the loss was with our B team against Leicester). Salah is essentially pulling a Ronaldo with Liverpool -- his focus is to score goals, for the most part. He rarely tracks back, he is constantly looking for space to get into, and the rest of our team is built to facilitate that with the work they put in -- especially in Firmino's case. It felt kind of like our entire gameplan with Suarez in the side was to get him the ball and hope he could create something out of it. He was tireless, and much more involved in the build up of the play while also creating a ton of space for those around him.
> 
> It's late and I could go into a much more detailed post about Suarez's affect on this team but the superlatives being thrown Salah's way are a bit over the top. He's improved his finishing and composure in the final third tremendously. He's incredibly quick and controls the ball well. Again, I think he's got a playstyle that reminds me of a hybrid Ronaldo/Messi. He plays like if Messi played like Ronaldo (CR7) does (though he's obviously not as good as Messi)...if that even makes sense.




I definitely looked at the whole of how Suarez performed before coming to this conclusion. One way it is easy to look at the whole of Salah's performances is seeing how many goals Firmino is scoring as a #9 now compared to last season. I thought the best performance either of these players had considering competition was a game Suarez played against Zenit, Salah has still not approached that level in any singular game. It is still every week with this stuff. Suarez also scored from a few free kicks, which Salah has not yet done. That is an impact all of its own as well, but there's something else people seem to not realize. Suarez scored zero times against a top four team that year. That's something I did not make up, it's 100% fact. You make of it what you want.

Does anyone think Ronaldo is less important to RM's success than the other players there? That's effectively the argument and in those terms, Ronaldo's impact on RM speaks for itself. I mean, you can't have it both ways here. I believe you're one of the people who talks about how great Ronaldo is. Well, this one speaks for itself. That all being said this is still only a debut season. It could get better or it could get worse. Ultimately time will tell. Personally I believe Suarez got better after leaving Liverpool, but a lot of other players around the world improved at the same time and the recognition he should probably get will never come to him, for both that and other reasons.


----------



## les Habs

Jussi said:


> It wasn't. When players can't compelete easy passes and despite training two days a higher tempo game, after about a half an hour they keep walking or standing around on the pitch, the players should take responsibility for their play. Lukaku didn't call some players out after the Sevilla game without reason. There's more than a few players whose quality of play has dropped greatly from earlier in the season.




It was. There was absolutely zero need for him to go public. Furthermore, that inheritance nonsense and the bit about the players he'll be passing on was also unnecessary on top of going too far. That's not to mention the hypocrisy and the passing of the buck. A true supporter of the club would actually call him out on it rather than blindly defend him over and over again.


----------



## maclean

JeffreyLFC said:


> This is Austin Matthews good!




Except that Liverpool also managed to actually win the game


----------



## maclean

Just out of curiosity, I wasn't paying enough attention - were all the postponed PL games this weekend because of weather or cup games, or both?


----------



## Chimaera

Yeah, I'm wrong. 

Cup ties it looks like.


----------



## hatterson

They were all due to cup ties.

Spurs, Chelsea, Leicester, Swansea, Southampton, United, and Brighton were all in FA cup games


----------



## maclean

Well, thanks for clearing that up boys!


----------



## YNWA14

Live in the Now said:


> I definitely looked at the whole of how Suarez performed before coming to this conclusion. One way it is easy to look at the whole of Salah's performances is seeing how many goals Firmino is scoring as a #9 now compared to last season. I thought the best performance either of these players had considering competition was a game Suarez played against Zenit, Salah has still not approached that level in any singular game. It is still every week with this stuff. Suarez also scored from a few free kicks, which Salah has not yet done. That is an impact all of its own as well, but there's something else people seem to not realize. Suarez scored zero times against a top four team that year. That's something I did not make up, it's 100% fact. You make of it what you want.




Suarez still had 4 assists against 'top 4' sides (aka the 3 other teams that composed the top 4) that season, while also scoring 6 and assisting 5 between United, Spurs and Everton (and it was a lot easier to gameplan again just shutting Suarez down to try and stifle Liverpool in that time which made it harder on Suarez at times IMO). Firmino scoring more was also a matter of time as he was one of the more unlucky players in the league last season, but it also makes sense that he'd score more with other great players in the team. I'm not trying to say that Salah isn't a great player, he absolutely is. But Suarez had 31 goals and 21 assists in 33 games in the PL that season, and he wasn't just primarily a poacher. He did it all. I think it was the single most productive season in PL history (fact check) and honestly the overall quality of the team wasn't at the same level as this one (which benefits everyone involved). I can't imagine what that Suarez would look like playing with our current set-up, especially Firmino who just does so much work and opens up so much space for the other forwards.



> Does anyone think Ronaldo is less important to RM's success than the other players there? That's effectively the argument and in those terms, Ronaldo's impact on RM speaks for itself. I mean, you can't have it both ways here. I believe you're one of the people who talks about how great Ronaldo is. Well, this one speaks for itself. That all being said this is still only a debut season. It could get better or it could get worse. Ultimately time will tell. Personally I believe Suarez got better after leaving Liverpool, but a lot of other players around the world improved at the same time and the recognition he should probably get will never come to him, for both that and other reasons.



I know a lot of people think that Ronaldo is less important, and I wasn't trying to say he's not important or fantastic for Liverpool, but Ronaldo has also been doing it for a long time and Salah hasn't hit those peaks. I just think Suarez had a bigger impact overall on the team. But again, my preference for Suarez's top season over what Salah is currently doing isn't a slight against Salah. I just think there's a very legitimate argument that Suarez's last season with us was the best season an individual has had in the PL maybe ever. Salah could certainly get up to that level.


----------



## YNWA14

The above table is the data with and without BIG van Dijk.

Obviously, it partially coincides with replacing Mignolet with Karius as well (and small sample size) but anyone watching the games can see a marked and noticeable improvement largely due to van Dijk and his presence at the back. Not just his defending but his confidence and organizing.

https://g.redditmedia.com/eSQ1tGnAU...nted=false&s=87c113c778b41022f9bcf5f659a0a416

Find someone who believes in you like van Dijk believes in his team.

What a player, buy and, even though it was all doom and gloom from some when it happened, replacing Coutinho with van Dijk has improved the team. Can't wait for the summer when Keita and a few other big players join.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Didn’t Mourinho do something similar yo what he’s doing now at the end of his last Chelsea stint? Argue with the board, take shots at his club, and call out his players or something of the sort?


----------



## Burner Account

Live in the Now said:


> I definitely looked at the whole of how Suarez performed before coming to this conclusion. One way it is easy to look at the whole of Salah's performances is seeing how many goals Firmino is scoring as a #9 now compared to last season. I thought the best performance either of these players had considering competition was a game Suarez played against Zenit, Salah has still not approached that level in any singular game. It is still every week with this stuff. Suarez also scored from a few free kicks, which Salah has not yet done. That is an impact all of its own as well, but there's something else people seem to not realize. Suarez scored zero times against a top four team that year. That's something I did not make up, it's 100% fact. You make of it what you want.
> 
> Does anyone think Ronaldo is less important to RM's success than the other players there? That's effectively the argument and in those terms, Ronaldo's impact on RM speaks for itself. I mean, you can't have it both ways here. I believe you're one of the people who talks about how great Ronaldo is. Well, this one speaks for itself. That all being said this is still only a debut season. It could get better or it could get worse. Ultimately time will tell. Personally I believe Suarez got better after leaving Liverpool, but a lot of other players around the world improved at the same time and the recognition he should probably get will never come to him, for both that and other reasons.



Saturday was Salah's equivalent of Suarez in 2013-14 Norwich home. He still hasn't had a second leg vs. Zenit performance.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Seems like Tottenham's new lodge at their training ground is finished. Will be used by Spurs players in preparation for matches, or betweem double training sessions. Will also be hired out together with parts of the ground to clubs/national teams that need a better alternative to a hotel. Brazil will use it in preparation for the WC.


----------



## Prntscrn

Hopefully this is true.

Liverpool set to expand Anfield again as club target 60,000 seats | Daily Mail Online


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Not sure how many recurring ankle injuries Harry Winks has had this season. Makes me extremely worried considering his world class potential.


----------



## S E P H

Prntscrn said:


> Hopefully this is true.
> 
> Liverpool set to expand Anfield again as club target 60,000 seats | Daily Mail Online



Sounds like Arsenal, soon Klopp is going to say that you lot will be challenging against Bayern only to lose 10-2 on agg.


----------



## robertmac43

S E P H said:


> Sounds like Arsenal, soon Klopp is going to say that you lot will be challenging against Bayern only to lose 10-2 on agg.




And then to make things worse you will end up in the Europa league barely beating a Swedish pub team, losing to them @ your new, massive stadium.


----------



## S E P H

West Brom CEO says there is no money left in the bank to pay for players wages, expecting heavy financial losses incoming. They're getting relegated...


----------



## hatterson

TBH they were getting relegated regardless of paying their players. They're 10 back of safety with 8 games to go.


----------



## robertmac43

West Brom as good as done at this point. I think West Ham will be joining them, as well as Huddersfield.

I cannot help but think that Stoke and and Southampton will find away out of the bottom 3


----------



## hatterson

Southampton has a tough schedule to close out. Arsenal, Chelsea, Leicester, Everton and City still to go.


----------



## Stray Wasp

S E P H said:


> West Brom CEO says there is no money left in the bank to pay for players wages, expecting heavy financial losses incoming. They're getting relegated...




A useful reminder that for all but a handful of clubs the Premier League is an economic Venus fly trap.

Albion's 2015/16 financial results threw up startling numbers: their wage bill was £73.7 million, dangerously high for a turnover of £98.3 million. (It's considered good housekeeping to keep salaries under 60% of turnover).

Now weigh the outlay against the 'quality' it bought in:

Myhill (Foster)
Dawson - McAuley - Evans (Chester) - Olsson
Fletcher - Yacob (Sandro)
Gardner (Morrison, McManaman) - Sessegnon (Berahino) - McClean (Brunt)
Rondon (Lambert / Anichebe)

Let's allow that West Brom may have had an oversized, overpaid non-footballing staff. Even so, pretty much everyone in that starting line up must have been earning £50-60,000 a week. They were able to command this as the going rate for keeping West Brom in the league, yet it left them with a squad incapable of playing football, and no financial leeway to carry out even a modest upgrade.

So in 2016/17 the combination of a 10th place finish and the new TV deal added £39 million to their turnover, but one report I read claimed the wage bill commitments increased another £25 million to accommodate footballing giants Matt Phillips, Nacer Chadli, Allan Nyom, Hal Robson-Kanu and Jake Livermore.

And this summer they upped the ante even further. I've seen Kieran Gibbs' salary quoted at £80,000 a week, and Krychowiak's mentioned at £100,000 a week. Even allowing that we should take the media's reports on individual players' stipends with a grain of salt, the amount of cash being splurged just to try and reduce the gap to the top six from three country miles to two is certifiable.

The mind boggles at the staggering amount of money utterly mediocre players are creaming in, and will continue to cream in for many more years to come.


----------



## Prntscrn

One of those days today. Liverpool will lose


----------



## johnny_rudeboy

COYS!!!


----------



## Johnnywhite

johnny_rudeboy said:


> COYS!!!



Oh when the Spurs..........


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Joel Matip’s season likely over due to injury


----------



## Savant

spintheblackcircle said:


> Joel Matip’s season likely over due to injury



Yeah it's true. 

Klavan and Emre Can are probably out tomorrow too. 

The only healthy senior player that has played CB this year that is still healthy is Wijnaldum. They have Conor Masterson at the youth level who is probably closest to the first team but he likely is not ready 

Lovren was better than Matip this season, but Liverpool are running out of bodies.


----------



## Theokritos

Personally I wouldn't play Salah against Everton tomorrow, but what are the chances Klopp actually rests him?


----------



## hatterson

Theokritos said:


> Personally I wouldn't play Salah against Everton tomorrow, but what are the chances Klopp actually rests him?




Playing him against Everton would be beyond idiotic.


----------



## YNWA14

Yeah at this point Klopp needs to be giving a couple key players a rest if we want to fight down the home stretch. Firmino and Salah both should not even be on the bench this weekend, as much as it pains me not to have our two best players against Everton. We should be able to smash them without those two anyway and it's a great chance to give a few players a run out.


----------



## Savant

YNWA14 said:


> Yeah at this point Klopp needs to be giving a couple key players a rest if we want to fight down the home stretch. Firmino and Salah both should not even be on the bench this weekend, as much as it pains me not to have our two best players against Everton. We should be able to smash them without those two anyway and it's a great chance to give a few players a run out.



Everton is going to park the bus and foul hard. It would be insane to risk anyone that will be playing on Wednesday. I cant stop thinking about what Funes Mori did to Origi.


----------



## YNWA14

Savant said:


> Everton is going to park the bus and foul hard. It would be insane to risk anyone that will be playing on Wednesday. I cant stop thinking about what Funes Mori did to Origi.



Yeah...if I'm Klopp I'd be playing Moreno, Woodburn, Solanke and probably Ings. The problem is that with all the other injuries we already have there aren't actually even that many options for rotation. Henderson also has to play because of the ban (I'd rest Ox and Milner and play a 3 of Henderson/Wijnaldum/Woodburn).


----------



## Savant

YNWA14 said:


> Yeah...if I'm Klopp I'd be playing Moreno, Woodburn, Solanke and probably Ings. The problem is that with all the other injuries we already have there aren't actually even that many options for rotation. Henderson also has to play because of the ban (I'd rest Ox and Milner and play a 3 of Henderson/Wijnaldum/Woodburn).



We agree?!?


----------



## Live in the Now

Rafa Camacho is in the squad tomorrow and I'm pretty sure he's going to start in Salah's place, with Klopp giving lots of indications he will treat this game the same as Stoke last season. 17 year old Portuguese attacking player. Very big talent. 

Good to have such a big point cushion right now.


----------



## Savant

Live in the Now said:


> Rafa Camacho is in the squad tomorrow and I'm pretty sure he's going to start in Salah's place, with Klopp giving lots of indications he will treat this game the same as Stoke last season. 17 year old Portuguese attacking player. Very big talent.
> 
> Good to have such a big point cushion right now.



Jones is more of an attacking mid, and Camacho is more of a winger, correct?

Woodburn is also injured by the way.


----------



## YNWA14

Jones is a midfielder and Camacho is a winger yes. They should both play since Woodburn is injured. Two very talented youngsters that are also both very confident players.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## Savant

Savant said:


> Jones is more of an attacking mid, and Camacho is more of a winger, correct?
> 
> Woodburn is also injured by the way.



Liverpool should just sign Gerrard until the end of the season. Worked for Scholes and United. 

Not really though.


----------



## hatterson

spintheblackcircle said:


>





I'd be interested in seeing that over 2-3 years. United probably at $200 million.


----------



## Stray Wasp

hatterson said:


> I'd be interested in seeing that over 2-3 years. United probably at $200 million.




Forgive my being a spoilsport, but the figures for 2016-17 are below, and The Fallen Empire's numbers aren't as amusingly extravagant as I'd wish them to be:

How much did your club spend on agents in 2016-17?

The sharp rise in Watford's spending leaves me imagining cash being shovelled into the pockets of Richarlison's agent to make him persuade his client to agree that deal.

I'm bound to point out Newcastle spent £3 million less on agents' fees this season than they did during their Championship campaign. Which makes stories the club fed the media about the wage bill rising steeply this season seem all the more mysterious.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

spintheblackcircle said:


>




What the hell Liverpool.


----------



## Savant

Big Kahuna said:


> What the hell Liverpool.



Its 2018. You need to play agents nowadays. At least they aren't lining Raiola's pockets.


----------



## Stray Wasp

Savant said:


> Its 2018. You need to play agents nowadays. At least they aren't lining Raiola's pockets.




It strikes me that of all the big spenders they seem to have paid a higher percentage to agents on their various incomings. Unless the figures also include 'golden goodbyes'.

No matter. The success of their permanent signings during that period makes the expenses tolerable.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## Cassano

spintheblackcircle said:


>




Eh, Arsenal for 12 years had a good wage structure and it led to consistency, but lacked the major titles. Eventually you're gonna need to spend to win trophies.


----------



## Havre

Yes. I mean the new spending has really helped.


----------



## Cassano

Havre said:


> Yes. I mean the new spending has really helped.



They'd be even worse off without it.


----------



## Havre

But again. Spurs will of course spend more when contracts start to run out.


----------



## Cassano

This was in 2009. Plan the parade.


----------



## spintheblackcircle




----------



## Savant

Kane successfully appealed to be rewarded with Spurs second goal last weekend on a shot that might have grazed his shoulder. 

Just FA things.


----------



## Cassano

Savant said:


> Kane successfully appealed to be rewarded with Spurs second goal last weekend on a shot that might have grazed his shoulder.
> 
> Just FA things.



Pathetic. There is no definitive angle that I've seen that went off him. 

FA wants a good English lad being face of the Premier League.


----------



## Cassano




----------



## YNWA14

All Might said:


>


----------



## LastWordArmy

the Liverpool freak out on the Kane goal decision is hilarious on twitter.

You'll never whine alone.


----------



## Live in the Now

LastWordArmy said:


> the Liverpool freak out on the Kane goal decision is hilarious on twitter.
> 
> You'll never whine alone.




Someone can't read sarcasm.


----------



## LastWordArmy

Live in the Now said:


> Someone can't read sarcasm.




Yeah, all those fans on twitter who have been b-hurt since the draw weeks ago... its all sarcasm... sure.


----------



## Live in the Now

LastWordArmy said:


> Yeah, all those fans on twitter who have been b-hurt since the draw weeks ago... its all sarcasm... sure.




Yeah I don't think anyone cares about a league draw from months ago at this point of the season. It's a big joke that you think people really care. Champions League semifinals, that's what people care about.


----------



## LastWordArmy

Yup, no one at all focused on this today.

Liverpool React to Bizarre Decision to Award Harry Kane an Extra Goal


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Live in the Now said:


> Yeah I don't think anyone cares about a league draw from months ago at this point of the season. It's a big joke that you think people really care. Champions League semifinals, that's what people care about.




You should check out a few reddit threads regarding the topic. Jesus Christ...


----------



## Sol

Ronaldo has been flopping non stop


----------



## Live in the Now

LastWordArmy said:


> Yup, no one at all focused on this today.
> 
> Liverpool React to Bizarre Decision to Award Harry Kane an Extra Goal




All of those posts from players are obviously jokes.



Big Kahuna said:


> You should check out a few reddit threads regarding the topic. Jesus Christ...




I'll have to pass. Peak high schoolers over there usually.


----------



## LastWordArmy

Live in the Now said:


> All of those posts from players are obviously jokes.




The point was that it was the top story on that liverpool blog.


----------



## Corto

LastWordArmy said:


> the Liverpool freak out on the Kane goal decision is hilarious on twitter.
> 
> You'll never whine alone.




In all of this, Liverpool or Liverpool fans are hardly the ones looking bad.

They're (rightfully) making fun of Kane, his pettiness, his taking a goal from his team mate, and the silly people who awarded him the goal even though every replay shows him NOT touching the ball.

Also, swearing on your daughter's life is just bizarre lol...


----------



## Havre

You can "see" with capital letters that he didn't touch it?

Don't see why he would be given the goal if that wasn't most likely what actually happened. And if that was what actually happened I don't see the problem with getting it right.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

People are delusional if they think Kane got the goal even though the panel didn't think he touched it.


----------



## Corto

Big Kahuna said:


> People are delusional if they think Kane got the goal even though the panel didn't think he touched it.




The panel (Goal Accreditation Appeals Panel) literally said they changed it due to player testimonies and replays. 

I've yet to see any video showing Kane touch the ball - in fact, it really doesn't look that close.


----------



## Havre

That doesn't prove he touched it, but to say it isn't close? Obviously his shoulder - not his head.

To me it looks like he touched it. They should have access to that footage at much higher quality.


----------



## Corto

Havre said:


> View attachment 112993
> 
> That doesn't prove he touched it, but to say it isn't close? Obviously his shoulder - not his head.
> 
> To me it looks like he touched it. They should have access to that footage at much higher quality.




That's the pic Kane posted on his twitter, and it's a still. From this angle, ball in front of the player, yeah looks like he could've touched it.
See the video, 2 or 3 angles, and it maaaaaybe touches the hair on his head - but is nowhere near his shoulder.
I mean, the video above isn't the best quality, but you can clearly see the ball doesn't touch his shoulder.
(best thing about the replay is that he was offside when Eriksen hit the ball btw  )

I don't really care, I just find the whole thing bizarre, especially "swearing on his daughter's life".


----------



## phisherman

Pretty pathetic how desperate Kane is to pad his goal stats.


----------



## Havre

Corto said:


> That's the pic Kane posted on his twitter, and it's a still. From this angle, ball in front of the player, yeah looks like he could've touched it.
> See the video, 2 or 3 angles, and it maaaaaybe touches the hair on his head - but is nowhere near his shoulder.
> I mean, the video above isn't the best quality, but you can clearly see the ball doesn't touch his shoulder.
> (best thing about the replay is that he was offside when Eriksen hit the ball btw  )
> 
> I don't really care, I just find the whole thing bizarre, especially "swearing on his daughter's life".




No. It is not - since I made that still from a video (but he probably did the same).

Agree on the bizarre part - that so many fans care that much - and that someone's word clearly isn't worth much. Really hope some high definition stills are made public at some point.

I don't know if he touched it, but I do think it is a bit funny that someone can be that sure he didn't.


----------



## Corto

Havre said:


> I don't know if he touched it, but I do think it is a bit funny that someone can be that sure he didn't.




Fair enough.

I'll rephrase it, because you're right.

In light of all the available video replays on the interwebs that I've seen/found, I've yet to see any angle that would have me think Kane touched the ball.

But ultimately, at this point, it's just good bantz - I don't really care either way.


----------



## YNWA14

Whether it did or not the whole process looks kind of bad on Kane and he's getting roasted pretty much everywhere for it. Hope he doesn't win the golden boot by 1 because I'm sure he'll never hear the end of it then.


----------



## Havre

YNWA14 said:


> Whether it did or not the *whole process looks kind of bad on Kane* and he's getting roasted pretty much everywhere for it. Hope he doesn't win the golden boot by 1 because I'm sure he'll never hear the end of it then.




But why? 

I know people might think I "defend" Kane because I'm a Spursfan, but that is not it (I'm probably more disgusted everytime Alli simulates because I'm a Spursfan if anything as an example). If he feels the ball touching his should why shouldn't he/the club ask for the right goalscorer to be registered? It would be rather absurd not asking to fix what is from his point of view a clear mistake.


----------



## Corto

Havre said:


> But why?




Because it's meaningless, it's petty. Goal was scored, a team won, another team lost. Result is the same. 
I can't really remember a case like this in top-tier football. Team complaining to take a goal from one player to another - it's ridiculous.

Especially when all the videos available seem to show otherwise.

But anyway, at this point, it's become a meme, it's about banter...


----------



## Havre

Still. The point stands. If he touched the ball why not make it right?

It's not like the club or Kane has spent a lot of energy overturning the decision. You have probably spent more time arguing your case on this message board than the club and Kane combined.


----------



## phisherman

Havre said:


> Still. The point stands. If he touched the ball why not make it right?
> 
> It's not like the club or* Kane has spent a lot of energy overturning the decision*. You have probably spent more time arguing your case on this message board than the club and Kane combined.




He swore on his daughter's life.


----------



## YNWA14

I mean, they had to go through player testimony and submit an application for it to be changed so I imagine they put some effort into it. Like Corto said...it's the principle of it. IF Kane did touch it (and it really does not look like he did...maybe a stray hair?) the contact was minuscule and didn't change the trajectory of the ball at all (which is why nobody thinks he touched it). To take credit for that goal is pretty bush league and looks desperate. But he did swear on his daughter's life so I hope it did graze him.


----------



## Cassano

I'm biased being an Arsenal fan, but desperate is the perfect way to put it.


----------



## hatterson

The only part I think is odd is swearing on his daughters life. That's just a strange thing to do.


----------



## Havre

hatterson said:


> The only part I think is odd is swearing on his daughters life. That's just a strange thing to do.




People take that literally or something? To me it is just a phrase to emphasize a point.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

People swear on their mum all the time, so what?


----------



## The Abusement Park

It just seems so petty to me.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

It would be petty if he was proven not to touch it or wasn't a contender for the golden boot.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Goal scorers should be greedy. You think Ronaldo would say, "Well, I touched it, but let's give Gareth this one?"

Hell no.


----------



## les Habs

All of this Kane discussion is in the wrong thread. It should be in the transfers thread as it's just further evidence of a move to Madrid in the near future.

As for Liverpool's players' reaction, it's almost as laughable.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

Danny Rose is hurt again and is out.

Hope they get a lot for him.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

les Habs said:


> All of this Kane discussion is in the wrong thread. It should be in the transfers thread as it's just further evidence of a move to Madrid in the near future.
> 
> As for Liverpool's players' reaction, it's almost as laughable.




He's most likely signing a new contract this summer, so...


----------



## Live in the Now

Big Kahuna said:


> He's most likely signing a new contract this summer, so...




Plus, Kane isn't how you spell Hazard or Lewandowski.

Mo Salah: 'There's something very special about playing for Liverpool' - CNN

Finally a top player who wants to be at the club. Apparently they have made a full documentary about him.


----------



## phisherman

Live in the Now said:


> Plus, Kane isn't how you spell Hazard or Lewandowski.




Must've missed the link I posted where Kane is supposed to be Madrid's next signing.


----------



## Live in the Now

phisherman said:


> Must've missed the link I posted where Kane is supposed to be Madrid's next signing.




I just can't believe it. 150 million at least.


----------



## hatterson

Live in the Now said:


> I just can't believe it. 150 million at least.




I think that link had Bale + 100m for Kane.

I don't think it's happening.


----------



## les Habs

Big Kahuna said:


> He's most likely signing a new contract this summer, so...




In due time. He's got "Madrid player" written all over him.


----------



## Havre

Not worried for a second that Kane will leave this summer.


----------



## Evilo

Live in the Now said:


> Plus, Kane isn't how you spell Hazard or Lewandowski.
> 
> Mo Salah: 'There's something very special about playing for Liverpool' - CNN
> 
> Finally a top player who wants to be at the club. Apparently they have made a full documentary about him.



Wait, wait, wait... Coutinho rings a bell?


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

I don't understand why the Barca supporter would want it to happen anyway.


----------



## phisherman

Big Kahuna said:


> I don't understand why the Barca supporter would want it to happen anyway.




The scenes when Kane appeals for a goal to be credited to him from a Ronaldo shot.


----------



## Live in the Now

Evilo said:


> Wait, wait, wait... Coutinho rings a bell?




He never said any of that. Nor did he talk about the fans after winning like Salah did on Tuesday. All it really means is that when he departs in the future it will hurt worse, but I do take those comments to mean that it will happen in the future and not soon.


----------



## Evilo

Live in the Now said:


> He never said any of that. Nor did he talk about the fans after winning like Salah did on Tuesday. All it really means is that when he departs in the future it will hurt worse, but I do take those comments to mean that it will happen in the future and not soon.





> "Stay here and they will end up building a statue in your honour," Coutinho said in an interview with ESPN Brasil.
> "Go somewhere else, to Barcelona, to Bayern Munich, to Real Madrid, and you will be just another player. Here you can be something more.





> ‘Liverpool is a great club with great players,’ said Coutinho. ‘We’ve always heard about Liverpool’s history in Brazil."



I hope you guys keep him, but those quotes in today's football? Pretty much worthless.


----------



## YNWA14

les Habs said:


> In due time. He's got "Madrid player" written all over him.



Similar to how Coutinwho had Barca player written all over him.


----------



## les Habs

YNWA14 said:


> Similar to how Coutinwho had Barca player written all over him.


----------



## Cassano

Edit: Wrong Thread


----------



## Evilo

YNWA14 said:


> Coutinwho



How old are you? 9? 10?
Seriously? Which grown up transforms a player's name because he transfered to another team?


----------



## les Habs

Evilo said:


> How old are you? 9? 10?
> Seriously? Which grown up transforms a player's name because he transfered to another team?




Not to mention he was actually a Liverpool to begin with, and "Curtinho" clearly liked him (though not as much as Ronaldo). Also, Naby Keita.


----------



## YNWA14

Evilo said:


> How old are you? 9? 10?
> Seriously? Which grown up transforms a player's name because he transfered to another team?



...lol

I can't even. It's a little joke, relax. Although I'm sure that even you can see the irony in your commenting on someone else's maturity.


----------



## Evilo

Probably 8 then.


----------



## KJS14

Can we just get back to Harry Kane being petty? Even if he did manage to get the slightest of touches, you shouldn't put in that much effort to take a goal from your teammate after the fact. His team got the win and he's only worried about his stats apparently.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Fernandinho suspended, Aguero and Stones injured for tomorrow.



KJS14 said:


> Can we just get back to Harry Kane being petty? Even if he did manage to get the slightest of touches, you shouldn't put in that much effort to take a goal from your teammate after the fact. His team got the win and he's only worried about his stats apparently.




I mean, he's probably one of the most determined footballers on the planet, so why is anybody surprised that he would want another golden boot? And Eriksen was completely fine with it.


----------



## Havre

Let it go. If anyone believe Ronaldo, Shearer etc. would have acted differently - so be it.

Important that Fernandinho is out. Not suggesting it will therefore be easy, but City haven't really got a proper replacement for him.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

PL clubs vote against VAR for next season.

Great decision. For me to be satisfied it still needs A LOT of work. Referee's don't know how to use it, it takes too long and the video refs are far from good themselves.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Evilo said:


> Probably 8 then.



Come on man, he "can't even".


----------



## maclean

Havre said:


> Let it go. If anyone believe Ronaldo, Shearer etc. would have acted differently - so be it.




I don't know if that's a good argument over it not being petty


----------



## YEM

petty/not petty...doesn't matter, goals are hard currency for strikers, it's how they're measured
had salah done this spurs fans would be goofing on him for doing so...
that said I still don't think he got a touch on it


----------



## Havre

maclean said:


> I don't know if that's a good argument over it not being petty




That wasn’t the point. Most if not all strikers would do the same. Petty or not.


----------



## YNWA14

Havre said:


> That wasn’t the point. Most if not all strikers would do the same. Petty or not.



Do you have any examples of where it has been done in the past? Maybe I'm just forgetting.


----------



## Havre

YNWA14 said:


> Do you have any examples of where it has been done in the past? Maybe I'm just forgetting.




Of course not. I can’t even remember one situation similar to this. For most goals it is pretty easy to determine the goal scorer. So it never happening doesn’t prove anything. I’m speculating when I say I believe others would have behaved similarly. I would never be able to prove that. So if people disagree with my statement that is of course fine. Anyway. I’m done.


----------



## Cassano




----------



## The Abusement Park

All Might said:


>





Dat guy Welbs! This probably one of Welbs hot streaks, he’d always flash his potential and then go back to not being able to finish. Which is a shame because he has every other attribute to be a good striker/winger.


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Where are the people who said Auba would struggle in the Premier League?


----------



## Cassano

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Where are the people who said Auba would struggle in the Premier League?



Half his goals are against relegation teams to be fair.

I still don't think it was the right buy for what we needed.


----------



## Chimaera

I've no problem if Salah eventually goes. He can also love Liverpool and still want to go play in Madrid or Barca. He'll make more there than he ever would here. With the way football is, it makes sense. 

What I've got a problem with, and always have, is when a player doesn't at least give the club something. In Coutinho's situation, he could have just as easily gone in the Summer, after having gotten to the semi's in the CL. He could have waited a bit, not stomped his feet right before the season kicked off. He doesn't owe the club everything, but they did basically help him discover his career. 

Liverpool aren't Barca. They aren't Real, and they're not able to pay what some other oil clubs can pay. Moving to someone on the same level is something they can prevent. But that said, Salah owes Liverpool another year. He just got here. If he wanted to go in the summer after this one, fine. But one year and moving isn't enough and not the precedent the club can afford.


----------



## Cassano

KJS14 said:


> Can we just get back to Harry Kane being petty? Even if he did manage to get the slightest of touches, you shouldn't put in that much effort to take a goal from your teammate after the fact. His team got the win and he's only worried about his stats apparently.


----------



## les Habs

Chimaera said:


> I've no problem if Salah eventually goes. He can also love Liverpool and still want to go play in Madrid or Barca. He'll make more there than he ever would here. With the way football is, it makes sense.
> 
> What I've got a problem with, and always have, is when a player doesn't at least give the club something. In Coutinho's situation, he could have just as easily gone in the Summer, after having gotten to the semi's in the CL. He could have waited a bit, not stomped his feet right before the season kicked off. He doesn't owe the club everything, but they did basically help him discover his career.
> 
> Liverpool aren't Barca. They aren't Real, and they're not able to pay what some other oil clubs can pay. Moving to someone on the same level is something they can prevent. *But that said, Salah owes Liverpool another year. *He just got here. If he wanted to go in the summer after this one, fine. But one year and moving isn't enough and not the precedent the club can afford.




What are you talking about? Both Coutinho and Salah have given Liverpool something. I'm going to focus on Salah because of the comment I've bolded. You could make the case that he owes them as many years as he's got left on his contract which I'm guessing is quite a few. Still if he wants to leave more power to him so long as a club he's willing to go to agrees a fee with Liverpool. If anything Liverpool owe him a notable pay rise I'd imagine. Whether the club can afford to lose him after one year isn't his problem (though they clearly could afford it because if he were to leave they'd make a massive profit).


----------



## KJS14

Big Kahuna said:


> Fernandinho suspended, Aguero and Stones injured for tomorrow.
> 
> I mean, he's probably one of the most determined footballers on the planet, so why is anybody surprised that he would want another golden boot? And Eriksen was completely fine with it.




I'm not saying he isn't a determined player who puts in a lot of work, but it's just a self-centered thing to do. Rightly or wrongly it makes it look like the golden boot is more important to him than winning games. Eriksen wouldn't say anything about it no matter how he felt, and I doubt he really cares tbh, but it's still a really petty thing to do.

He deserves all of the banter he's been getting about it.


----------



## Chimaera

They do owe him a higher wage packet. But one year and moving isn’t a precedent the club can afford to set and if they’re going to let him go where he wants, he needs to be here for more than just one season


----------



## Live in the Now

He won't leave after one season because look where Liverpool is right now. It's not like the other seasons they lost players after here, the team is one of the best in Europe on merit. The CL performances even in the middle of an injury/suspension crisis speak for themselves. If they had van Dijk all season who knows how things would have gone, we'll find out next season. I have seen that Spurs and Liverpool both have more points than City since the turn of the year. 



les Habs said:


> What are you talking about? Both Coutinho and Salah have given Liverpool something. I'm going to focus on Salah because of the comment I've bolded. You could make the case that he owes them as many years as he's got left on his contract which I'm guessing is quite a few. Still if he wants to leave more power to him so long as a club he's willing to go to agrees a fee with Liverpool. If anything Liverpool owe him a notable pay rise I'd imagine. Whether the club can afford to lose him after one year isn't his problem (though they clearly could afford it because if he were to leave they'd make a massive profit).




I agree with all this.

I think his not going is mostly due to the performances of this season, as the team is matching his level. I assume that as long as his pay is right and as long as that's the case nothing will happen. Although it was funny when Curtinho said it this year, I do think it's quite likely that Liverpool is a real CL contender now and that the run this year isn't a fluke, so that's probably what leads to these comments like the ones Salah gave. Team could really be something with the benefit of a good summer coming up.

Obviously nobody expected that he would score this many goals earlier in the season or he might not have gone to Liverpool in the first place, but now that he's there the team should challenge for honors.


----------



## les Habs

Chimaera said:


> They do owe him a higher wage packet. But one year and moving isn’t a precedent the club can afford to set and if they’re going to let him go where he wants, he needs to be here for more than just one season




Again, no. Assuming he wants to go somewhere specific, I wouldn't say he "needs" to be there for more than just one season. Of course the buying club would have to agree a fee. As for the precedent, I agree with you. Definitely don't want to set that precedent. I'll play devil's advocate though and say what if he gets injured next season or he doesn't produce a season as good as this season. That coupled with his contract now being even shorter means his value has probably dropped some. At the end of the day I'd lean heavily towards "he's not for sale", but if a crazy bid comes in for him I think I'd consider it. 



Live in the Now said:


> He won't leave after one season because look where Liverpool is right now. It's not like the other seasons they lost players after here, the team is one of the best in Europe on merit. The CL performances even in the middle of an injury/suspension crisis speak for themselves. If they had van Dijk all season who knows how things would have gone, we'll find out next season. I have seen that Spurs and Liverpool both have more points than City since the turn of the year.
> 
> I agree with all this.
> 
> I think his not going is mostly due to the performances of this season, as the team is matching his level. I assume that as long as his pay is right and as long as that's the case nothing will happen. Although it was funny when Curtinho said it this year, I do think it's quite likely that Liverpool is a real CL contender now and that the run this year isn't a fluke, so that's probably what leads to these comments like the ones Salah gave. Team could really be something with the benefit of a good summer coming up.
> 
> Obviously nobody expected that he would score this many goals earlier in the season or he might not have gone to Liverpool in the first place, but now that he's there the team should challenge for honors.




I agree with most of this and as you said Liverpool matched his level of play. Still this is just one season. I'm not going to say next season is going to be vastly different (I'm not one for a lot of predictions), but things could change next season.


----------



## maclean

les Habs said:


> I agree with most of this and as you said Liverpool matched his level of play. Still this is just one season. I'm not going to say next season is going to be vastly different (I'm not one for a lot of predictions), but things could change next season.




Well, definitely if I'm a team that wants to offer big money for him, I'd kind of like to see that this season isn't just an anomaly too.


----------



## les Habs

maclean said:


> Well, definitely if I'm a team that wants to offer big money for him, I'd kind of like to see that this season isn't just an anomaly too.




Sure, but not all clubs awash with money will necessarily take that view. That said, barring a notable transfer from another big club, I don't see it happening. Some of the club with money also being in the PL mean potential suitors for Salah are at the moment probably fewer than most would think.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

YNWA14 said:


> Do you have any examples of where it has been done in the past? Maybe I'm just forgetting.




Sturridge???


----------



## Chimaera

I guess I just lean more towards what they’re going to say if Real comes in for him.


I completely agree anyone is always for sale, but I think you sit him down, give him a new wage and tell him you need another season out of him before he goes.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Wolves have secured promotion for next season.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Poch says Toby will be included in the squad tomorrow.


----------



## Havre

Big Kahuna said:


> Poch says Toby will be included in the squad tomorrow.




Perfect excuse to drop Sanchez after that game.

Pochettino has already said before City that Alderweireld will be involved again. It kind of has to be for this game if he is to get a shot at getting his position back.


----------



## YNWA14




----------



## The Abusement Park

YNWA14 said:


>





Holy cringe...


----------



## HajdukSplit

Stoke are likely down now, however they have three 'winnable' fixtures in their final 4 matches (Burnley home, Palace home, Swansea away...they still go to Anfield however). The only chance they have is winning these three matches. Not sure if the Liverpool match is sandwiched between their CL semi's either, which will only help but they still won't be likely to pick up points there


----------



## Savant

HajdukSplit said:


> Stoke are likely down now, however they have three 'winnable' fixtures in their final 4 matches (Burnley home, Palace home, Swansea away...they still go to Anfield however). The only chance they have is winning these three matches. *Not sure if the Liverpool match is sandwiched between their CL semi's either*, which will only help but they still won't be likely to pick up points there



It is. Liverpool isn't going to play anyone.


----------



## YNWA14

I'm curious to hear how Arsenal fans feel about Aubameyang so far and what their ideal line-up would be currently. Would you rather have Aubameyang or Lacazette leading the line? I thought I remembered hearing that Lacazette was better or something but Aubameyang has looked more dangerous than Lacazette ever did for Arsenal from what I've seen (small sample size). I know Arsene loves that 4-2-3-1 or 3-4-3 but maybe they'd be better off with a 2 striker system? Has Welbeck worked his way into the first XI recently? What is the outlook for next season? Just at a glance...

???
Bellerin - ??? - ??? - ???
Ramsey* - Elneny*
Mickey - Ozil - ???
Aubameyang​
Seems like a lot of holes to fill in one summer if they want to compete with the top 5 next season (Chelsea will probably have a bounceback like they normally do). Does Wenger stay? If nothing else they have 3 elite, or close to elite, players to build off of in Mkhitaryan, Ozil and Aubameyang.


----------



## phisherman

YNWA14 said:


> I'm curious to hear how Arsenal fans feel about Aubameyang so far and what their ideal line-up would be currently. Would you rather have Aubameyang or Lacazette leading the line? I thought I remembered hearing that Lacazette was better or something but Aubameyang has looked more dangerous than Lacazette ever did for Arsenal from what I've seen (small sample size). I know Arsene loves that 4-2-3-1 or 3-4-3 but maybe they'd be better off with a 2 striker system? Has Welbeck worked his way into the first XI recently? What is the outlook for next season? Just at a glance...
> 
> ???
> Bellerin - ??? - ??? - ???
> Ramsey* - Elneny*
> Mickey - Ozil - ???
> Aubameyang​
> Seems like a lot of holes to fill in one summer if they want to compete with the top 5 next season (Chelsea will probably have a bounceback like they normally do). Does Wenger stay? If nothing else they have 3 elite, or close to elite, players to build off of in Mkhitaryan, Ozil and Aubameyang.




Mickey Ozil Auba
Laca

Laca looks better now after his knee surgery.

Arsenal are only in 6th place due to their away record. They're only 2 points behind Man City if you look at the home record table.


----------



## Cassano

YNWA14 said:


> I'm curious to hear how Arsenal fans feel about Aubameyang so far and what their ideal line-up would be currently. Would you rather have Aubameyang or Lacazette leading the line? I thought I remembered hearing that Lacazette was better or something but Aubameyang has looked more dangerous than Lacazette ever did for Arsenal from what I've seen (small sample size). I know Arsene loves that 4-2-3-1 or 3-4-3 but maybe they'd be better off with a 2 striker system? Has Welbeck worked his way into the first XI recently? What is the outlook for next season? Just at a glance...
> 
> ???
> Bellerin - ??? - ??? - ???
> Ramsey* - Elneny*
> Mickey - Ozil - ???
> Aubameyang​
> Seems like a lot of holes to fill in one summer if they want to compete with the top 5 next season (Chelsea will probably have a bounceback like they normally do). Does Wenger stay? If nothing else they have 3 elite, or close to elite, players to build off of in Mkhitaryan, Ozil and Aubameyang.




Those three players you mentioned are probably at the end of their peak years, so it's gonna be tough to build around them for the long-haul

Wenger has been trying to shoe-horn Aubameyang on the left wing and put Lacazette as striker. I hate it so much.

As for defense and keeper, we need 2 new starting CBs and 2 new goalies as well Lol.

They insisted on David Luiz and Manolas in the Winter transfer window - so I wonder if they go back to that route again. Manolas probably priced himself out of here with his Barca performance and I think he's off to Utd. Maybe Chelsea sell us an aging Luiz since they have Zouma coming back from his Stoke loan.

Also Johnny Evans has a 3mil release clause when West Brom get relegated. He's been linked to Arsenal and Man City for years and maybe he prefers a move to Arsenal if he wants a starting role.

I think we finish 6th-8th place unless there's a coaching change regardless.


----------



## YNWA14

Then add in the fact that he's tied for 9th most productive player in Europe this season (G+A, top 5 leagues):

Messi - 55
Salah - 53
Immobile - 50
Ronaldo - 48
Neymar - 48
Cavani - 44
Kane - 41
Lewandowski - 40
Suarez - 39/Griezmann - 39/Firmino - 39

What an absolute baller. He would be impossible to replace; they need to get him on a new contract ASAP.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Looks about right. I would've had Sane in there, but whatever. Aguero/Firmino is a toss-up. 


Two horse race: De Bruyne and Salah. Honestly not sure which they'll end up going with. 


Holy mother of god they need to fix this award. Lower the age limit.


----------



## YNWA14

Yeah not sure I'd call a near 25 year old a 'young player' relative to his peers but eh...Kane will win it.

Firmino not being on the TotY is pretty meh to me but I also thought it would be a 4-4-2.


----------



## Savant

Firmino and Fernandinho got robbed.


----------



## DaphneLion

Hi all, I watch MLS soccer but want to start watching some decent soccer. How should one go about picking a Premier League team? Any recommendations?


----------



## Power Man

DaphneLion said:


> Hi all, I watch MLS soccer but want to start watching some decent soccer. How should one go about picking a Premier League team? Any recommendations?




That's not how it works.
You don't pick a team, a team picks you.

Keep it simple, watch EPL games, you will eventually end up liking a team, it will come naturally


----------



## Evilo

Damn, only one Liverpool player. 5 for City.


----------



## Live in the Now

Firmino definitely should have been in.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Aguero has never been in TOTY before, so they probably felt forced to put him in.


----------



## HoseEmDown

DaphneLion said:


> Hi all, I watch MLS soccer but want to start watching some decent soccer. How should one go about picking a Premier League team? Any recommendations?




With no good Americans in the league anymore you can't even pick by that. I made my pick based on the Fifa game, I always picked Tottenham. They weren't the best team to start but always had a ton of youth with high potential that you could grow into stars and sell for insane profits and them bring a new one up and repeat. They also had a good forward line with the likes of Berbatov, Keane and Bent.


----------



## Ceremony

DaphneLion said:


> Hi all, I watch MLS soccer but want to start watching some decent soccer. How should one go about picking a Premier League team? Any recommendations?



Go and watch your local team and support them, otherwise you end up indirectly contributing to atrocities like that _Man City_ video above.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Holy mother of god they need to fix this award. Lower the age limit.





Yeah for real.. Sane and Rashford I can understand being there, but Ederson and Kane are what? 24? 25? No way they should be on that list.


----------



## YNWA14

Ceremony said:


> Go and watch your local team and support them, otherwise you end up indirectly contributing to atrocities like that _Man City_ video above.



You can do both. I do.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

The Abusement Park said:


> Yeah for real.. Sane and Rashford I can understand being there, but Ederson and Kane are what? 24? 25? No way they should be on that list.




Exactly. I hope that they do the same as they did last year and specifically give it to one of the actual young guys. Kane was nominated last year as well (and had a better season than Alli) but they gave it to the actually young player. Same as when Kane won it - he beat out Hazard, who won POTY. I'd bet on Sane winning.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Wee Baby Seamus said:


> Exactly. I hope that they do the same as they did last year and specifically give it to one of the actual young guys. Kane was nominated last year as well (and had a better season than Alli) but they gave it to the actually young player. Same as when Kane won it - he beat out Hazard, who won POTY. I'd bet on Sane winning.




And Sane should win it IMO.


----------



## KJS14

Seems odd that they would have Sane on the shortlist for PFA player of the year over Aguero, but then Aguero is in the PFA team of the year over Sane, no? Doesn't really make sense in terms of continuity, unless they are considering Sane a midfielder rather than a forward.


----------



## Savant

Aguero got in because he won his place via lifetime achievement award.


----------



## Cassano

Pretty sure he's only 2nd behind Salah in goals + assist per 90.


----------



## Live in the Now

Salah won Player of the Year.

edit: the person, who was verified, went ahead and deleted their tweet.


----------



## The Abusement Park

Live in the Now said:


> Salah won Player of the Year.
> 
> edit: the person, who was verified, went ahead and deleted their tweet.




Doesn’t surprise me honestly


----------



## robertmac43

Wenger to leave Arsenal at end of season

Excited for what is to come with Arsenal!


----------



## maclean

robertmac43 said:


> Wenger to leave Arsenal at end of season
> 
> Excited for what is to come with Arsenal!


----------



## hatterson

You'd be hard pressed to find a way in which Wenger could have possibly managed his exit worse.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

POTY - Salah
YPOTY - Sane


----------



## YNWA14

Both deserved.


----------



## S E P H

YNWA14 said:


> Both deserved.



Not really, Salah started off the season quite terrible and KDB was on his way to winning the Ballon d'Or. Eventually somewhere right before the mid-half point of the season started they switched production and Salah came out as a beast. It's more about "what have you done for me lately" instead of who is actually the best player in the EPL.


----------



## YNWA14

S E P H said:


> Not really, Salah started off the season quite terrible and KDB was on his way to winning the Ballon d'Or. Eventually somewhere right before the mid-half point of the season started they switched production and Salah came out as a beast. It's more about "what have you done for me lately" instead of who is actually the best player in the EPL.



Salah started off the season scoring against Watford and then being the MotM in a 4 - 0 destruction of Arsenal. On top of which he only went more than 1 game without scoring once all season (and it was only 2 games). He set the record for most games scored in, and has time on his side in setting the record for most goals in a 38 game season period. It's not really a tale of two halves. I could see making a case for KdB, but to say that Salah 'didn't really' deserve the award is pretty silly.


----------



## Live in the Now

YNWA14 said:


> Salah started off the season scoring against Watford and then being the MotM in a 4 - 0 destruction of Arsenal. On top of which he only went more than 1 game without scoring once all season (and it was only 2 games). He set the record for most games scored in, and has time on his side in setting the record for most goals in a 38 game season period. It's not really a tale of two halves. I could see making a case for KdB, but to say that Salah 'didn't really' deserve the award is pretty silly.




He said that Salah played like Welbeck and he meant it. I wouldn't waste your time.


----------



## JeffreyLFC

If anything Liverpool as a team have been very inconsistent throughout the year.. with the sole exception of one player named Salah who has been excellent from start to finish and that player truly deserve the accolades.


----------



## Savant

Harry Kane is England's golden boy – it's disgraceful he is the butt of FA and PFA jokes

Barf.


----------



## Cassano

Savant said:


> Harry Kane is England's golden boy – it's disgraceful he is the butt of FA and PFA jokes
> 
> Barf.



I'm gonna say it - imagine if it was Raheem Sterling who claimed a goal. This is a guy who was criticized for shopping simply because he's a successful black athlete. 

But then the masses coming to defend Kane is hilarious in comparison.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Savant said:


> Harry Kane is England's golden boy – it's disgraceful he is the butt of FA and PFA jokes
> 
> Barf.




Don't have access to the entire article, but based off the title:

Yes he is currently England's golden boy.

And yes, the FA and PFA have no business posting banter about him on their twitter. Makes them look like unprofessional twats.


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

If I had a vote, it would've gone to De Bruyne, but obviously Salah is a perfectly legitimate and strong choice.


----------



## Deficient Mode

Savant said:


> Harry Kane is England's golden boy – it's disgraceful he is the butt of FA and PFA jokes
> 
> Barf.




Pfft. He better enjoy it while he can. Sancho is coming.


----------



## Elliman

Race has nothing to do with it. If it was Rashford he would be treated the same as Kane. Sterling is a t#at and has made enemies everywhere he’s been. Take off your liberal tinted glasses. 




All Might said:


> I'm gonna say it - imagine if it was Raheem Sterling who claimed a goal. This is a guy who was criticized for shopping simply because he's a successful black athlete.
> 
> But then the masses coming to defend Kane is hilarious in comparison.


----------



## Live in the Now

All Might said:


> I'm gonna say it - imagine if it was Raheem Sterling who claimed a goal. This is a guy who was criticized for shopping simply because he's a successful black athlete.
> 
> But then the masses coming to defend Kane is hilarious in comparison.




Everyone is treating Kane like a joke, except for Spurs fans. He's going to be a joke for a while.


----------



## S E P H

Live in the Now said:


> He said that Salah played like Welbeck and he meant it. I wouldn't waste your time.



Well, he's obviously better than whatever I said in the beginning of the season. I wasn't trying to downplay Salah by any sense of the imagination in that post, I was arguing that KDB had an insane start to the year similar to what Salah's current form is. And that both players decided to do a 180 and flip with one playing outstanding to average, while the other one being okay to exploding on the scene. I don't think that's an unfair comment to make.


----------



## YNWA14

You said that Salah didn't really deserve PotY and ignored that he's been producing literally since game 1 with Liverpool.


----------



## Savant

Salah deserved to be POTY. De Bruyne also deserved to be POTY. There can be only one.

To say one wasn't worthy is preposterous.


----------



## The Abusement Park

If KDB woulda won player of the year I wouldn’t have been up in arms about that. Being I’d say by far the best player on the best team in the league makes you a worthy POTY candidate. But it’s really hard to argue against Salah winning the POTY, both guys are more than deserving players.


----------



## S E P H

YNWA14 said:


> You said that Salah didn't really deserve PotY and ignored that he's been producing literally since game 1 with Liverpool.



Never said anything of the sort. I mention that it's hard to judge and give Salah POTY award since he had a very strong second half of the season compared to KDB who had a very strong first half of the season. I was more targeting that majority of these awards in ANY sport don't really judge on consistent basis like Kane has been (except for his first month) for instance...they normally tend to target "what have you done for me lately" which I disagree with. Now with all that said, Salah should absolutely be a major candidate for POTY award just like Kane and KDB should also be other candidates. If Salah wins which he did then so be it, he deserved it, but lets not arguing that this was a cakewalk for him as KDB was just as good as he was in the first 3-5 months of the season.


----------



## Live in the Now

S E P H said:


> Never said anything of the sort. I mention that it's hard to judge and give Salah POTY award since he had a very strong second half of the season compared to KDB who had a very strong first half of the season. I was more targeting that majority of these awards in ANY sport don't really judge on consistent basis like Kane has been (except for his first month) for instance...they normally tend to target "what have you done for me lately" which I disagree with. Now with all that said, Salah should absolutely be a major candidate for POTY award just like Kane and KDB should also be other candidates. If Salah wins which he did then so be it, he deserved it, but lets not arguing that this was a cakewalk for him as KDB was just as good as he was in the first 3-5 months of the season.




They were both fantastic, I don't think anyone who said Salah deserved POTY said otherwise. He didn't even start off slow either, they rotated him because they needed to beat Hoffenheim.


----------



## S E P H

Live in the Now said:


> They were both fantastic, I don't think anyone who said Salah deserved POTY said otherwise. He didn't even start off slow either, they rotated him because they needed to beat Hoffenheim.



That's where I disagree on, I called him Welbeck at the beginning of the year because he would miss 4 out of every 5 great chances he got. No one in their right mind would agree with the statement that Salah was better than KDB at the first quarter of the season. Hell, you lot of Reds were saying how amazing of a player Mane was....until he got injured and Salah took advantage of that (to a degree).


----------



## Live in the Now

S E P H said:


> That's where I disagree on, I called him Welbeck at the beginning of the year because he would miss 4 out of every 5 great chances he got. No one in their right mind would agree with the statement that Salah was better than KDB at the first quarter of the season. Hell, you lot of Reds were saying how amazing of a player Mane was....until he got injured and Salah took advantage of that (to a degree).




KDB was better at the start for sure, but Salah was no slouch. He missed four or five chances at the very start and still misses chances these days, but everyone ignores it because his conversion rate is still really high.


----------



## YNWA14

S E P H said:


> Never said anything of the sort. I mention that it's hard to judge and give Salah POTY award since he had a very strong second half of the season compared to KDB who had a very strong first half of the season. I was more targeting that majority of these awards in ANY sport don't really judge on consistent basis like Kane has been (except for his first month) for instance...they normally tend to target "what have you done for me lately" which I disagree with. Now with all that said, Salah should absolutely be a major candidate for POTY award just like Kane and KDB should also be other candidates. If Salah wins which he did then so be it, he deserved it, but lets not arguing that this was a cakewalk for him as KDB was just as good as he was in the first 3-5 months of the season.



Except one, nobody said that it was a cakewalk and everyone pretty much agreed that KdB would be just as deserving (lol Kane). Two, your response was, and I quote, 'not really' when I said that the award winners were deserved...but sure, you never said anything of the sort.

Why does it matter if KdB was better at the beginning and Salah was better at the end anyway? They were both incredibly consistently great over the season and were the only two deserving players.


----------



## les Habs

Instead of the nonsense about who is better you lot should just laugh at the fact that Chelsea could be fielding both at present were it not for Mourinho.


----------



## Cassano

Oh man. I hope he can make one appearance this season before he retires. Preferably in the last home game.


----------



## Howie Hodge

Mo Salah is effin brilliant....

Obvious, but I just watched him vs Roma tonight from Tuesday....


----------



## Savant

Roberto Firmino signs long term extension with Liverpool until 2023

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/amp/news/first-team/300082-roberto-firmino-contract-liverpool-lfc


----------



## cgf

All that really matters is that Leroy became the first german to win the PFA’s young boy award


----------



## hatterson

Savant said:


> Roberto Firmino signs long term extension with Liverpool until 2023
> 
> http://www.liverpoolfc.com/amp/news/first-team/300082-roberto-firmino-contract-liverpool-lfc




Looks like it's a reported 180k/week

Less than I figured he'd be making


----------



## Live in the Now

Savant said:


> Roberto Firmino signs long term extension with Liverpool until 2023
> 
> http://www.liverpoolfc.com/amp/news/first-team/300082-roberto-firmino-contract-liverpool-lfc




I knew they were saving this news for the first bit of nervous time or a negative result. Never in doubt. All of the promotional material is from before Klopp had his teeth whitened.


----------



## hatterson

So if United win their last 3 games (away to Brighton and West Ham, hosting Watford), they'll have more points than the average league winner during the 38 game PL era. Their 86 point total would have them winning/level with the title in 10 seasons and within 5 points of a title in all but 2 seasons (Chelsea's 95 in 04-05 and 93 last year)

Yet somehow this season is talked about like a disaster.


----------



## YNWA14

hatterson said:


> So if United win their last 3 games (away to Brighton and West Ham, hosting Watford), they'll have more points than the average league winner during the 38 game PL era. Their 86 point total would have them winning/level with the title in 10 seasons and within 5 points of a title in all but 2 seasons (Chelsea's 95 in 04-05 and 93 last year)
> 
> Yet somehow this season is talked about like a disaster.



Well, they did go out to Sevilla and spent like a bazillion dollars.


----------



## hatterson

YNWA14 said:


> Well, they did go out to Sevilla and spent like a bazillion dollars.




I’m not saying it’s some hugely successful season or anything, but it’s far from a complete failure and it shouldn’t be a surprise why Mourinho isn’t being fired.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

United actually have beaten all the other big clubs in the last couple of months..Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Liverpool and Spurs. Of course, there's also the exit to Sevilla in that time frame. 

And that kinda illustrates their problem. Their style of play is so boring and unattractive that nothing but titles will allow people to view them positively. A very good 2nd place in a tough Premiership alone won't placate people. 

Mourinho shouldn't get fired but only a league title and/or CL title will reconcile people with him.


----------



## maclean

I mean, second in the PL is not a bad season by any metric. Except the same kind of one that looks at, say, a PSG team 19 points clear of 2nd but not even making the CL semis as a failure. Plus, let's not forget the optics - a team that should by rights be dominating playing often chaotic or unsightly football.. even if they end up eking out the points. But no, it's certainly not the grounds for Mourinho to be fired, although from a historical perspective it may be prescient to do so before he completely loses the room and everything goes to shit


----------



## Pavel Buchnevich

Has it been considered yet that Liverpool aren't yet qualified for the Champions League next season? If Chelsea beat Liverpool, they have two games left after that against the 10th and 16th place teams. If they win all three of those games, Liverpool would be required to beat Brighton to finish ahead of Chelsea. A draw, and they'd finish below Chelsea.


----------



## YNWA14

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Has it been considered yet that Liverpool aren't yet qualified for the Champions League next season? If Chelsea beat Liverpool, they have two games left after that against the 10th and 16th place teams. If they win all three of those games, Liverpool would be required to beat Brighton to finish ahead of Chelsea. A draw, and they'd finish below Chelsea.



Yes.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

It actually wouldn't be the weirdest outcome. Liverpool looked pretty tired tonight. Their lack of depth could cause a rather spectacular collapse (if they miss out qualifying for the CL in the league and lose the CL Final).


----------



## hatterson

Pavel Buchnevich said:


> Has it been considered yet that Liverpool aren't yet qualified for the Champions League next season? If Chelsea beat Liverpool, they have two games left after that against the 10th and 16th place teams. If they win all three of those games, Liverpool would be required to beat Brighton to finish ahead of Chelsea. A draw, and they'd finish below Chelsea.




Yea, if Chelsea wins Sunday, it'll almost assuredly go into the final Sunday with Liverpool needing an equal result to Chelsea to finish top 4.


----------



## S E P H

Curious because I haven't been paying too much attention to the EPL since I am an Arsenal fan....

I noticed something odd, almost two months ago I saw that the top 4 is for the CL and 5th place qualifies for Euro. However, just last week in the standings where it said top 4 for the CL, but places 5th, 6th, and 7th is for Europa. Did the EPL get more spots from UEFA?


----------



## hatterson

S E P H said:


> Curious because I haven't been paying too much attention to the EPL since I am an Arsenal fan....
> 
> I noticed something odd, almost two months ago I saw that the top 4 is for the CL and 5th place qualifies for Euro. However, just last week in the standings where it said top 4 for the CL, but places 5th, 6th, and 7th is for Europa. Did the EPL get more spots from UEFA?




It's due to how the cups have gone down.

5th gets the league standings spot.
6th gets the FA cup that either Chelsea or United will have (United qualify for CL, Chelsea for CL or EL based on league standings).
7th gets the league cup spot from City as City has CL.


And technically 4th isn't guaranteed CL yet.

If:
- Chelsea win out
- Liverpool don't beat Brighton
- Liverpool win the CL
- Arsenal win the EL

Then 4th place (Chelsea) would get dropped down to the EL.

That could mean Chelsea could be on cloud 9 next Sunday for pulling off a great "escape" and getting to 4th to have CL football back, and then suddenly be dumped back to the EL.


----------



## Jussi

25 years ago:


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

If anybody cares, Kane, Dele and Trippier are playing Fortnite with Ninja, Twitch's largest streamer:



Edit: They had a good laugh at Arsenal getting knocked out.


----------



## Desdichado93

"Former Manchester United manager Sir Alex Ferguson had emergency surgery on Saturday for a brain haemorrhage."

Sir Alex Ferguson: Former Manchester United boss has emergency surgery


----------



## Stray Wasp

Jussi said:


> 25 years ago:





Lies.

Surely that much time can't have passed. Can it?


----------



## hatterson

Desdichado30 said:


> "Former Manchester United manager Sir Alex Ferguson had emergency surgery on Saturday for a brain haemorrhage."
> 
> Sir Alex Ferguson: Former Manchester United boss has emergency surgery




Hoping for a full and speedy recovery.


----------



## robertmac43

Whos winning the Swansea verse Southampton game on Tuesday?


----------



## hatterson

robertmac43 said:


> Whos winning the Swansea verse Southampton game on Tuesday?




Desperately hoping for a draw to keep Swansea’s story alive into the final day.


----------



## Stray Wasp

robertmac43 said:


> Whos winning the Swansea verse Southampton game on Tuesday?




It may be that I'm cursing Southampton by suggesting this, but I can't see Swansea winning.

Unless that late equaliser on Saturday has utterly demoralised the Saints, they can take heart from the fact they don't have to come out and play. Swansea is winless in seven, during which they've scored only two goals. And Carlos Carvahal is by nature a cautious coach rather than expansive. Yet they can't afford to lose here.

It's no remark of genius to say that the first goal is likely to define the game. If Swansea scores it, Southampton has on paper the talent to save the game. If their visitors score first, I can't see Swansea scoring twice without opening up so much the contest degenerates into a series of cavalry charges- a scenario in which Southampton's greater talent should again give them the edge.

Mark Hughes' tactical masterstroke of not being Mauricio Pellegrino seems to have breathed a little life into the Saints.
Admittedly losing Yoshida may leave them weak at centre back, and there remains the lingering doubt over their stomach in a tight spot that the experience of conceding first would put to the ultimate test. Still, Swansea strike me as having become rather a nowt nor summat team, and as Stoke proved, falling between two stools if often fatal.


----------



## Havre

I'm expecting Renato Sanches to bring this home for Swansea 

That is about as evenly matched a game could ever be. Southampton are the better team, but Swansea got the advantage of playing at home. Both teams are desperate not to lose and probably not brave enough to keep on attacking if they go up 1-0. With a high degree of certainty will this be an extremely close game. If either team go up 1-0 they will spend the rest of the game defending their lead (the odd CA or set-piece might give them 2-0 of course).

Don't want Swansea to go down, but it would be worse if Southampton did. They are a half decent team playing some half decent football under a half decent manager.


----------



## robertmac43

I kind of want Swansea to stay up so Wales has that representation


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

robertmac43 said:


> I kind of want Swansea to stay up so Wales has that representation




Cardiff are getting promoted, so Wales will be represented in the Premier League next year either way.


----------



## robertmac43

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> Cardiff are getting promoted, so Wales will be represented in the Premier League next year either way.




lol good point, well then let Swansea stay up to have the derby


----------



## YNWA14

Thought this was interesting.



> The below isn't opinion, it is just statements being made on the basis of looking purely at goals conceded data when on the pitch. Rank in terms of goals conceded in brackets. I don't believe too much should be read into any one piece of data. For example - players who come off the bench a lot towards of the end of games where we concede will see a huge impact on their numbers. So I am not surprised regular subs like Moreno, Milner & Chamberlain score worst here. Likewise, anybody who avoided playing in teh spurs and man city loses will be spared a big hit in their numbers.
> 
> 1. Our best keeper is Karius (1)
> 2. Our best back 4 is: Gomez (9) - VVD (6) - Klavan (3) - Robertson (2)
> 3. Our best midfield 3 is: Gini (5) - Hendo (7) - Can (13)
> 4. Our best only forward 3 is: Mane (4) - Salah ( 8) - Firmino (11)
> 
> Subs: Migs (16), Lovren (9), Matip (14), Trent (12), Moreno (18), Milner (15), Chamberlain (17)
> 
> What might that suggest?
> 1. Karius instead of Migs makes a huge difference.
> 2. Robertson instead of Moreno makes a huge difference.
> 3. VVD instead of Matip makes a huge difference.
> 4. We suffer when either Gini or Hendo is out.
> 5. Klavan deserves the new contract he is reportedly being offered. He has the best goals against record of all center backs and has the best on the ball numbers of them all too. Although clearly has some weaknesses to his game (Aerial numbers), his strengths massively outweigh his weaknesses.
> 
> Digging into these a bit more.
> 1. We very rarely concede from outside the box when Gini, Hendo or Karius plays (midfield pressure on the ball? It is something people were critical of Can in the past (e.g. Wanyama) and Milner recently (Nainggolan).
> 2. We concede most from outside the box when Klavan, Can, Trent, Milner & Migs play. (weird to see Klavan as having the best goals against record but the worst from outside the box. Poor defensive headers? Doesn't close people down?)
> 3. Gini & Hendo block the least shots of our central midfielders - good positioning rather closing down then?
> 4. Klavan blocks almost half as many shots as our other center backs - the above makes some sense now.




I believe that the stats are based on GA/90 when the players are on the field. I think that Klavan has really benefited in these stats from his usage so I would have Lovren in there ahead of him. The Can stats surprise me a bit (even though he's 13th which isn't great) since a quick gander at his fixtures this season shows our defensive record is much better without him in the side (for example in games he hasn't played we've only conceded 7 in 11 outside of the CL and 14 in 16 in the CL (including the Roma games which both had goals where Liverpool were being very complacent after being comfortable).


----------



## Savant

@YNWA14 

Interesting stats there but I do think the key thing that it is missing is Klopp doesn't really play Klavan and Virgil together. This is because both are LCB. I dont think Klopp will accommodate Klavan by moving VVD or vice versa. Its misleading because I can count the times that those two have played in the center together on one hand.


----------



## robertmac43

CH staying in Brighton for another three years! Puts a smile on my face, hes been amazing the past couple years


----------



## Savant

Aston Villa vs Fulham for the final spot in the PL


----------



## robertmac43

Hoping Fulham gets promoted would be nice to have 3 teams that have not been up in a while


----------



## Havre

I don´t mind Fulham, but I prefer Villa. Would like Villa to establish themselves as a top 8-10 club. The PL would benefit having a good team from Birmingham. Villa is a proper club with a brilliant history. I miss them.


----------



## Savant

I'm rooting for Fulham, simply because I like their stadium better.


----------



## phisherman

Fulham because f*** John Terry.


----------



## Live in the Now

Fulham because I want to see Sessegnon play in the top flight for them.


----------



## robertmac43

Live in the Now said:


> Fulham because I want to see Sessegnon play in the top flight for them.




Its also time for Mitrovic to come back to top flight football :p


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Fulham are a little club living above their station thanks to their various rich benefactors through the years. I guess it helps being a little club based in one of the richest areas in the world. 

Villa are a proper club and should be a permanent PL fixture (as they have been). They've been underachieving for a long time thanks to questionable ownership and management. It would do the league a world of good for a Midlands club to play a role in the upper half of the Premiership.


----------



## Chimaera

I do think Villa should be back in the EPL, but it's hard to figure out who should go and stay. Glad West Brom and Stoke are going down (though I think either club is a good shot at coming back up sadly). 

It's getting harder and harder to predict who should actually go up and down, largely with the new investment. Wolves probably will spend to the point where they're in the 7-10 range (though maybe higher, depending on who they keep and who goes). I would expect Huddersfield and Brighton to go back down at some point, but who else will go is not a shoe in. Crystal Palace has hugged the line for parts of a few seasons, maybe if Zaha is sold, they'll go. It's way early to predict, but I wouldn't be shocked to see some change up.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Winks extends until 2023. Spurs have been on a roll this week, having already extended him, Sanchez, Walker-Peters and Carter-Vickers.


----------



## Havre

I am assuming CCV is signed just to secure some cash selling him.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

Havre said:


> I am assuming CCV is signed just to secure some cash selling him.




And to be appealing to the growing market across the pond.


----------



## Venkman

TheMoreYouKnow said:


> It would do the league a world of good for a Midlands club to play a role in the upper half of the Premiership.




There's a Midlands club already doing that.


----------



## Havre

Big Kahuna said:


> And to be appealing to the growing market across the pond.




Probably part of it. Pre-season and farewell tour.

Every young player can’t make it of course (unless it is a Liverpool youngster ), but I was hoping for more from CCV and Onomah. They are both much further away than I thought they would be.


----------



## TheMoreYouKnow

Venkman said:


> There's a Midlands club already doing that.




You're right, they just about got into the top half. But Villa have a lot more potential as a club than Leicester *in theory*.


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

After Poch's extension, Kane, Eriksen, Alli, Vertonghen, Lloris and Son are all expected to follow suit.


----------



## YNWA14

Spurs securing their future. Good for them. Arsenal and Chelsea are going to have to do a lot to keep up at this point.


----------



## Havre

We’ll see with the extensions, but Spurs clearly isn’t a bad place to be these days. Love the optimism around the team and club in general.

Kane and Eriksen got to stay. Great if the rest stay as well, but they are all somewhat replaceable at the time their current contracts run out (Alli might not be if he can take that next step).


----------



## Paulie Gualtieri

If Eriksen were to ever leave, we should get Bruno Fernandes. He is far from as established yet, but they play the game in an incredibly similar way.


----------



## Jumptheshark

And Fulham goes back up


----------



## Havre

Stadium plans on hold | Official Site | Chelsea Football Club

Beautiful.


----------



## Luigi Habs

Not looking good for Chelsea’s future under Abramovic


----------



## ViD

Luigi Habs said:


> Not looking good for Chelsea’s future under Abramovic



CSKA needs some funding, Roman


----------



## Wee Baby Seamus

Things looking bad for Chelsea, we'll come out of this though. The past couple years of lower net spend have been in preparation for Roman eventually decreasing his levels of personal investment - this is sooner than expected, but we all knew this day would come.


----------



## S E P H

Luigi Habs said:


> Not looking good for Chelsea’s future under Abramovic



Don't worry, things will continue once he gets more funds from his blood money investments.


----------



## Evilo

Haha, evil russians and muslims using blood money, while honest good old americans and european use nice shiny money...

Anyway, if Chelsea is on the block, someone rich will buy the club. No worries. For Chelsea fans I mean.


----------



## Chimaera

We've had this argument in the past. Or at least, this statement is a typical comment you make. 

There's a significant difference between a legitimate businessman making their money inventing something, investing, or doing well in the stock market, and a person who more or less plundered the money, resources and wealth of a nation for their own benefit. Especially when one of those two groups most likely is involved in the rule of violent dictators or oppressive regimes. 

I realize both are objectively bad, but we are capable as educated adults to identify there are differences in degrees. 

Roman's an oligarch who plundered the wealth of his country through illegitimate means. He had a hand in basically helping to install Putin. 

As stupid as John W. Henry's comments in the public might be (and I don't think they were anymore than ignorant), I don't think he's possibly responsible for using gangsters and bribery to get his wealth, all the while working on installing a brutal dictator in his country. I would also guess that his track record on women's rights is probably a tad better as well. 

I don't even need to get into the whole oil money arguments with Middle Eastern owners. All I will ask is whether or not that money they've taken from their people couldn't be better spent on helping improve economic conditions in their own countries.


----------



## Evilo

You're putting :
- inventing something
- investing
- doing well in the stock market

As somehow innocent success and on the same level. Inventing something useful or stealing money (because that's what it is) from the workers in the stock market is entirely different.
And if you think your billionaire is stranger to bribery, you need to stop being naive. And surely, your billionaire could improve the conditions of the workers of HIS OWN company, right?
No, of course he can't. He has to invest the money in his shiny toys.


----------



## Live in the Now

Luigi Habs said:


> Not looking good for Chelsea’s future under Abramovic




This is a massively tough one. He's not allowed into the country to access all his asset holdings and the club owes him 1.2bn. Could call it in. To buy the club would also cost a lot more as a result of that loan. Does anyone think he gave all that money out of the goodness of his heart and would only want back what he loaned, and will give all of the club's assets away for free? Hell no.


----------



## Chimaera

I'm not saying they haven't done things that are objectionable. I clearly stated that I completely agree that many of the people who have that much money probably aren't the best of characters. But all my point is, is that we should be smart enough to make a difference between certain owners. 

Your only retort whenever anyone points out blood money, oil money, or whatever is to say "well Americans and Euros are just as bad". It's classic what about-ism. If you really feel that Roman, Putin and his thugs are the same as some of the American businessmen who own sports teams, there's really not much we can discuss on the matter.


----------



## S E P H

Evilo said:


> Haha, evil russians and muslims using blood money, while honest good old americans and european use nice shiny money...
> 
> Anyway, if Chelsea is on the block, someone rich will buy the club. No worries. For Chelsea fans I mean.



What? How does one person who got his money from shady tactics somehow equal the entire nation of Russians and Muslims? I'm judging one guy here, not half of the world's population.


----------



## Evilo

And how many of your US billionaires have installed a crazy shit gun-loving asshole as your president?


----------



## Evilo

S E P H said:


> What? How does one person who got his money from shady tactics somehow equal the entire nation of Russians and Muslims? I'm judging one guy here, not half of the world's population.




Yet that's what we read here all the time.
Classic western centered pov.


----------



## Burner Account

I think it takes a certain ruthlessness to become a billionaire. John Henry has probably screwed over some good people and ruined their lives, but I think it probably stops there.


----------



## S E P H

Evilo said:


> Yet that's what we read here all the time.
> Classic western centered pov.



But I am not...just chill bro.

- There are good Russians, there are bad Russians (Abram is part of this crew)
- There are good white people, there are bad white people
- There are good black people, there are bad black people
- There are good Muslims, there are bad Muslims
- There are good Jews, there are bad Jews

Every crew has good and bad peeps, when you start labeling people into groups is when it goes south.


----------



## Live in the Now

Abramovich paid billions in bribes and stole resources. These aren't allegations either as he said he did those things. That's pretty bad. 

He also doesn't get that rich if our government doesn't prop up Yeltsin, judging from what I've read and know about him.


----------



## les Habs

S E P H said:


> But I am not...just chill bro.
> 
> - There are good Russians, there are bad Russians (Abram is part of this crew)
> - There are good white people, there are bad white people
> - There are good black people, there are bad black people
> - There are good Muslims, there are bad Muslims
> - There are good Jews, there are bad Jews
> 
> Every crew has good and bad peeps, when you start labeling people into groups is when it goes south.




I noticed you left out Madridistas. I too in my experience know of only one good one. Well done sir!


----------



## Ceremony

Personally I can't wait for Abramovich to get bored and f*** off leading to Chelsea becoming insolvent so quickly it rips a hole in time, but that's just me.


----------



## S E P H

les Habs said:


> I noticed you left out Madridistas. I too in my experience know of only one good one. Well done sir!



Is that Sergio Ramos?


----------



## Evilo

Live in the Now said:


> Abramovich paid billions in bribes and stole resources.



Good thing our western billionaires never do that.


----------



## Chimaera

kyle evs48 said:


> I think it takes a certain ruthlessness to become a billionaire. John Henry has probably screwed over some good people and ruined their lives, but I think it probably stops there.



That’s the point. He doesn’t support killers and gangsters. He certainly bent some rules to get where he is, but he’s not the equivalent of Roman


----------



## Chimaera

Live in the Now said:


> Abramovich paid billions in bribes and stole resources. These aren't allegations either as he said he did those things. That's pretty bad.
> 
> He also doesn't get that rich if our government doesn't prop up Yeltsin, judging from what I've read and know about him.



I would also put basically being pals and probably involved in the selection of Putin in the bad column, but you never know, John W Henry once stiffed a paper boy.


----------



## Evilo

Chimaera said:


> I would also put basically being pals and probably involved in the selection of Putin in the bad column, but you never know, John W Henry once stiffed a paper boy.



Ah, Putin bad, Trump good.

Good to see that western pov still working like toilet paper propaganda.


----------



## Stray Wasp

Evilo said:


> Anyway, if Chelsea is on the block, someone rich will buy the club. No worries. For Chelsea fans I mean.




Mike Ashley is purportedly a Chelsea fan...


----------



## Ceremony

Evilo outing himself as a Putinbot ahead of the world cup is a nice reveal. Should spice things up during the tournament.


----------



## Evilo

Ceremony said:


> Evilo outing himself as a Putinbot ahead of the world cup is a nice reveal. Should spice things up during the tournament.



Of course.
When you're not pro-westerners, you're a "Putinbot".

At least, stupidity is widely spread.


----------



## Chimaera

I’ve typed out a number of responses and deleted them each time. I don’t know that there’s a point in responding. I’m sorry you feel that way, and I don’t think there’s any point in continuing the thread of thought for me.


----------



## BKIslandersFan

Live look at Roman Abramovic trying to get back in to the UK


----------



## Evilo

Chimaera said:


> I’ve typed out a number of responses and deleted them each time. I don’t know that there’s a point in responding. I’m sorry you feel that way, and I don’t think there’s any point in continuing the thread of thought for me.



I'll only give oyu one advice : travel a little, go to other parts of the planet and talk to people.
Sometimes, it's a matter of perspective. We, westerners, for instance tend to view terrorism as only victims. That's highly debatable given our actions.
And if you think our western billionaires are using "clean" money, you are mistaken. But anyway, that's not something to debate here.


----------



## Havre

Chimaera said:


> I’ve typed out a number of responses and deleted them each time. I don’t know that there’s a point in responding. I’m sorry you feel that way, and I don’t think there’s any point in continuing the thread of thought for me.




Travel a little. Take some French poetry classes in the evening. Maybe in a couple of years you will be capable of understanding


----------



## Chimaera

See, you’re typing from ignorance. I’ve actually been to 15 countries. My dad’s from Germany, and I have relatives there. I teach students, many of whom are either below the poverty line along with a number of immigrants from difficult economic areas. 

I understand what you’re saying, but that’s why I’m not going to continue to respond to your feelings on the subject. It’s just not worth going down the rabbit hole when I know the result.


----------



## Jersey Fresh

Classic Melenchon voter.


----------



## Evilo

Chimaera said:


> See, you’re typing from ignorance. I’ve actually been to 15 countries. My dad’s from Germany, and I have relatives there. I teach students, many of whom are either below the poverty line along with a number of immigrants from difficult economic areas.
> 
> I understand what you’re saying, but that’s why I’m not going to continue to respond to your feelings on the subject. It’s just not worth going down the rabbit hole when I know the result.



Ah, Germany. A well known country from TOTALLY outside the western world. TOTALLY different point of view.


----------



## hatterson

Stop with the political garbage.

I don't care who is right or who is wrong, just stop.


----------



## spintheblackcircle

nowhere really to put this, but I love Rog


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## Paulie Gualtieri

Yaya Toure calls out Guardiola as a racist.


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## S E P H

Big Kahuna said:


> Yaya Toure calls out Guardiola as a racist.



Did Pep get him a racist birthday cake?


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## GeorgeLeafer12

Big Kahuna said:


> Yaya Toure calls out Guardiola as a racist.



Not sure if serious or just BS:ng

Yaya never has given such statement.


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## hatterson

GeorgeLeafer12 said:


> Not sure if serious or just BS:ng
> 
> Yaya never has given such statement.




Yaya Toure Accuses Pep Guardiola of Racism, Says He Doesn't Like African Players


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## Duchene2MacKinnon

hatterson said:


> Yaya Toure Accuses Pep Guardiola of Racism, Says He Doesn't Like African Players





What is with Yaya and cake? Maybe too much of it was the issue of PT?

Sidenote, for Yaya Africans aren't a race. But that's neither here nor there.


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## Paulie Gualtieri

GeorgeLeafer12 said:


> Not sure if serious or just BS:ng
> 
> Yaya never has given such statement.




See Hatterson's post.

I think Yaya is severely overreacting, but I'm pretty sure Alaba, Abidal and Eto'o have hinted towards it earlier too.


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## Duchene2MacKinnon

Big Kahuna said:


> See Hatterson's post.
> 
> I think Yaya is severely overreacting, but I'm pretty sure Alaba, Abidal and Eto'o have hinted towards it earlier too.



Abidal hinted towards? Complete unfounded. Pretty sure they have a great relationship. 

Anyone taking Yaya seriously should check into an asylum.


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## Live in the Now

Yaya is a total idiot and that's a stupid ass insinuation. He didn't play because he's 35 years old and if Pep hated Africans he wouldn't have signed Mendy for 52 million or whatever it was, or use Sane, etc. Never mind the fact that Africans aren't a race and that many of his players are black.



Big Kahuna said:


> I think Yaya is severely overreacting, but I'm pretty sure Alaba, Abidal and Eto'o have hinted towards it earlier too.




David Alaba: I miss Pep Guardiola

If the only sources are nutjobs like Eto'o and Yaya, welp.


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## GeorgeLeafer12

hatterson said:


> Yaya Toure Accuses Pep Guardiola of Racism, Says He Doesn't Like African Players





Only speculation, here say. Nothing from Yaya himself, its just something shared
by another person. Its not like he has posted something like this on his twitter or facebook pages.
or given official interviews on official media outlets -> has not officially accused Pep.


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## hatterson

GeorgeLeafer12 said:


> Only speculation, here say. Nothing from Yaya himself, its just something shared
> by another person. Its not like he has posted something like this on his twitter or facebook pages.
> or given official interviews on official media outlets -> has not officially accused Pep.




Those are excerpts from an interview he gave to France Football magazine so quite literally an official interview in an official media outlet.

Edit: It's totally fine to call Yaya a nutjob and say he's only saying it because he's bitter he didn't play more, but it's clear he did say those things/make the accusation.


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## Paulie Gualtieri

Duchene2MacKinnon said:


> Abidal hinted towards? Complete unfounded. Pretty sure they have a great relationship.
> 
> Anyone taking Yaya seriously should check into an asylum.




It was a rather minor thing I guess.

Abidal to Guardiola: If I can't speak French to Henry then why do the Catalan players speak in Catalan? - MARCA in English


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## Duchene2MacKinnon

Big Kahuna said:


> It was a rather minor thing I guess.
> 
> Abidal to Guardiola: If I can't speak French to Henry then why do the Catalan players speak in Catalan? - MARCA in English




Yup, definitely a minor thing that means absolutely nothing.

If we wanna start speculating tho we can also say Pep hates French.


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## Havre

Everyone hates the French


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## Evilo

Havre said:


> Everyone hates the French



Ah... jealousy...


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## les Habs

Someone should tell Yaya that his credibility went out the window a while ago.


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## The Abusement Park

les Habs said:


> Someone should tell Yaya that his credibility went out the window a while ago.




“Ya ya ya whatever”- Yayaya Toure


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## les Habs

Lest we've forgotten Yaya's agent:

_"Yaya has many offers from different countries, where they are ready to pay a lot of money, but we decided to dedicate the next season to Guardiola. And to prove and show the fans of Manchester City that Yaya has not finished with football.

"He is full of energy and wants to play this season in England.

"At a time when huge sums are being spent in England for the purchase of football players, I officially declare that Yaya is ready to move as a free agent to any English club of the top six with a salary of one-pound-a-week.But for certain successes to make a bonus system.

"I believe that a player like Yaya would not reject Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester United, Tottenham and Liverpool. Yaya is a winner.

"And never before has a top footballer with leadership qualities rejected any club, especially when they don't have to pay for it."_

So what's this bonus system for successes then? 

Success: Yaya's birthday
Bonus: Birthday cake


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## les Habs

There's more:

"You know, Guardiola cannot be called a dog. Because a dog is a good and kind creature, man’s best friend. But Guardiola, by his very nature, is man’s worst enemy,"

"God sees everything. The way he acted towards Yaya, a club legend, coming up with various pretexts not to let him play… He has set all of Africa against him, many African fans have turned away from Manchester City.

"And I am sure that many African shamans will not let Guardiola win the Champions League in future. It will be like an African curse on Guardiola. Time will tell if I am right or not."


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