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Jack Adams coaches: Coincidence?

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04-25-2004, 09:20 AM
  #1
kraigus
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Jack Adams coaches: Coincidence?

Igor said in another thread :

Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
In general I tend to think that coaches get a bit too much credit when a team does well, and a bit too much blame when it all goes wrong. I'd wager that the vast majority of Jack Adams winners coached teams that:
a.) Garnered more points in the standings than their goal differential indicated {i.e. had some puck-luck that year}
b.) Had a goaltender that had a very good year save%-wise.
c.) Coached a team that, quite predictably, performed worse the next season.
So... I'll bite.

I went through the last 4 Jack Adams winners (and I'll do the rest as well), and collected team win percentages for that year (+/- 1) and save percentages (+/- 1).

Hrm, you'll have to forgive me as tables are apparently beyond me here (I could hand-code the HTML though :mad: )

2002-2003: Jacques Lemaire won it with the Wild. That year the team win percentage was 0.573 and their save was 0.924. The next year the figures were 0.488 / 0.925, and the previous year 0.390 / 0.897. GDs were 20/5/-43 (avg -6).

2001-2002: Bob Francis won it with the Coyotes. That year they were 0.689 / 0.910. 2002-2003 they were 0.598 / 0.903, and the previous they were 0.530 / 0.890. GDs were 18/-26/2 (avg -2).

2000-2001: Bill Barber, PHI. (hockeydb claims that Barber didn't coach that year, and that it was the next year. Hrm. Maybe I misread something. Anyway.) That year: 0.591 / 0.907. Next year: 0.573 / 0.913. Previous year: 0.622 / 0.911. GDs were 33/42/58 (avg 44.3).

1999-2000: Joel Quenneville, STL. 0.689 / 0.910. Next year 0.598 / 0.903. Previous 0.530 / 0.890. GDs were 83/54/28 (avg 55).

This'd be easier if everything was tablified, maybe somebody can PM me with how to do that. But the trends in at least those 4 years:
  • Win%, year before: 3 of the teams were worse.
  • Win%, year after: all the teams were worse.
  • Save%, year before: half were worse, half were better.
  • Save%, year after: 2 dropped, 1 stayed about the same, 1 improved.
  • GD, year before: all teams save PHI were worse.
  • GD, year after: all teams save PHI were worse.

Man, I'd like to have a local copy of hockeydb. Excel sucks.

Anyway, I don't know if there's enough data there to draw any conclusions, but I don't see that there's a whole lot of evidence to fully support igor's theory. Yet. Note that I'm doing team save percentages, rather than a hot goalie save percentage.

Edited: I went back and did the goal differentials. Is PHI the exception that proves igor's rule after all?

Last edited by kraigus: 04-25-2004 at 09:52 AM.
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04-25-2004, 09:37 AM
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kraigus
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Oh, something else I forgot to say; I tried to figure out what year of coaching that particular team the winners were in.

Lemaire: 3
Francis: 2
Barber: 1
Quenneville: 3

I thought about seeing where the coaches were a year and 2 years after winning the award, but... I didn't.
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04-25-2004, 10:03 AM
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Interesting stuff, Kraigus. Bill James (igor's guru really) did a long article in one of his abstracts about the impact of a manager in his first season with a team. As it turned out, the first year was very effective, and then it tended to go downhill from there.

The reason the baseball study is interesting is that managers in baseball tend to last longer than coaches in hockey (therefore giving the study more seasons) and baseball teams are less likely to spike one way or another (at least they were before the dollars got stupid and it ceased becoming watchable) drastically.

Anyway, I've always felt the strongest relationship between the Adams trophy and who wins it is how long they've been in there. New guy goes to crappy team, rights the ship, big season. Following season they've heard it all before, back in the elevator shaft.
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04-25-2004, 10:31 AM
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Yeah, I just did Boston, Pat Burns took over from a lousy team with Steve Kasper and they went from a .372 team to 0.561. It looks like that was the emergence of Byron Dafoe: the team save / GD went from .878/-66 to 0.913/27.

I don't know - (almost?) every team I've looked at so far has had a different coach within 2 years of their winning the JA. It's the kiss of death, I guess, although non-winning coaches get fired a lot too.

Maybe there is something to the "tuning the coach out" thing.
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04-25-2004, 12:09 PM
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Here's the table:

Code:

                         Prev Year  Win Year   Next Year
Year    Winner      Team Win% Save% Win% Save% Win% Save%
2002-03 Lemaire     MIN  .390 .897  .573 .924  .488 .925
2001-02 Francis     PHO  .530 .890  .568 .910  .598 .903
2000-01 Barber      PHI  .622 .911  .591 .907  .573 .913
1999-00 Quenneville STL  .520 .890  .689 .910  .598 .903
I used the PHP tags so you can see exactly how i made the table. Basically define the code tag so it stands out in the post, you dont have to have these, then use the Courier New font, the reason being is that in this font the pixel width and heights for all charachters are equal. Thus aligning simply means the number of counts between each element, this includes spaces, so for instance Quenville plus the space at the end is a total of 12 charachters, thus Barber which is 6 letters long needs to have 6 letters and 6 spaces before the next element in the table should appear. btw tags do not count as spaces.
PHP Code:
[code][font=Courier New]
                         [
b]Prev Year  Win Year   Next Year
Year    Winner      Team Win
SaveWinSaveWinSave%[/b]
2002-03 Lemaire     MIN  .390 .897  .573 .924  .488 .925
2001
-02 Francis     PHO  .530 .890  .568 .910  .598 .903
2000
-01 Barber      PHI  .622 .911  .591 .907  .573 .913
1999
-00 Quenneville STL  .520 .890  .689 .910  .598 .903
[/font][/code

Last edited by rabi_sultan: 04-25-2004 at 12:16 PM.
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04-25-2004, 10:51 PM
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Oh, I thought that one could actually just have like a table element, like how it does lists. Tables by aligning text by hand is so... 1980s BBS. Oh well.

I went back to 1987, because around then goalie data started getting spotty. (I used hockeydb for everything. It rocks. Anybody who wonders where I get stats for anything, that's likely it.) I would have gone back to 1986, but that was the year Sather won with the Oilers and we can say with a fair bit of confidence that his was a reward for the continued domination of his teams: 1986 was the middle of the 4 Cups in 5 years.

Code:
 
                         Yr-1           Win Year       Yr+1          Notes
Year Winner      Team Yr Win%  SV%   GD Win%  SV%  GD  Win%  SV%  GD
2003 Lemaire     MIN  3  .390 .897  -43 .573 .924  20  .488 .925   5
2002 Francis     PHO  2  .530 .915    2 .543 .912  18  .445 .909 -26
2001 Barber      PHI  1  .622 .911   58 .591 .907  33  .573 .913  42
2000 Quenneville STL  3  .530 .890   28 .689 .910  83  .598 .903  54
1999 Martin      OTT  3  .506 .906   -7 .628 .915  60  .567 .900  34
1998 Burns       BOS  1  .372 .878  -66 .555 .913  27  .555 .920  33 Dafoe
1997 Nolan       BUF  2  .445 .912  -15 .561 .926  29  .543 .928  24
1996 Bowman      DET  3  .729 .902   63 .799 .909 144  .573 .906  56
1995 Crawford    QUE  1  .452 .890  -15 .677 .909  51  .634 .900  86
1994 Lemaire     NJD  1  .518 .881    9 .631 .910  86  .542 .901  15 Martin Brodeur
1993 Burns       TOR  1  .419 .884  -60 .589 .903  47  .583 .905  37 Felix Potvin
1992 Quinn       VAN  1  .406 .870  -72 .600 .892  35  .601 .887  68 Kirk MacLean
1991 Sutter      STL  3  .519 .883   16 .656 .894  60  .519 .903  13 Curtis Joseph
1990 Murdoch     WPG  1  .400 .865  -55 .531 .882   8  .394 .887 -28
1989 Burns       MTL  1  .644 .897   60 .719 .899  97  .581 .899  54 Roy - off year
1988 Demers      DET  2  .487 .883  -14 .581 .892  53  .500 .876  -3 Hanlon
1987 Demers      DET  1  .250 ???? -149 .487 .883 -14  .xxx .xxx xxx small spikes
Years of Experience
Sather's the only coach with more than 3 years with his team when he won it. The Oilers had dominated for several years previous though, and we can say that the award was more to recognise continued success rather than a turnaround season. When we toss him out, we find that 9 coaches were first year, 3 were second, and 5 were third year.

Winning Records
7 teams had losing records the previous year. Every single team save the 1987 Demers team had a winning record for their JA winner. Only 3 teams had losing records again the year afterwards.

Team Save Percentage
13 teams improved in their winning years from the previous year. 8 dropped in the next year.

Team Goal Differential
Every single team, save the 2001 Flyers, improved their GD from the year previous to the wins. Some of the teams had huge improvements: the 1987 Red Wings, the 1992 Canucks, the 1993 Maple Leafs, and the 1998 Bruins, for instance. At least 5 of those teams rode hot goalies, as we can see from the Notes column. Oddly enough, Roy actually had an off-year in 1989. The Red Wings appear to have used Glen Hanlon as their starting goalie (I'm going by minutes played) most of the way from at least 85-86 to 88-89, and Hanlon apparently blew hot and cold - his sv% spiked up and down those years. Unsurprisingly, teams that used more than two goalies tended to do very poorly. The best teams either had one outstanding goalie and rode him like crazy (Hasek for the Sabres) or a very good starter and a good backup (the 91 Blues had Joseph and Fuhr).

Now, igor also predicted that most teams would return to their normal GD the year after winning. Only 7 did what could be described as a tanking. 4 actually got better, and the remaining 6 either did not drop much, or dropped but still had good GDs.

I didn't look at each team's relative placing in the standings - perhaps I'll do that in another followup - but I don't think that we can say that Jack Adams coaches were necessarily "lucky".

Of course, in several cases, the teams were genuinely good to begin with, or were about to become so - Crawford's Nordiques, for instance (and they only got better once they moved to Colorado and acquired Roy), or Sather's Oilers, or Quinn's Canucks. It's really only been the last couple of years that we've seen a "trend" (if you can call 2 years such) of a bad team playing sufficiently above its mark to get a JA award for its coach, and then the team lapsed back into mediocrity.
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