So usually I am one of the optimists and even so, I have really gotten down on Penner in the past.
However. Are we all to hard on the guy? THe big factor I think we all keep forgetting is he is still young. Seeing as he didn't get into the NHL untill he was 22. Even though he is 26, that is really more like being 24, also consider power forwards tend to mature later. Most players peek when they are 27, but I think it is safe to say Penner has a couple years more to really peek.
So what is 4 years 4.25 mill a year really worth. I think we are going over board some times thinking is is worth a lot more then it is. So comparable players who sigend at the same time?? all these stats are what they are on pace for....
Scott Hartnell 6 years 4.2 mill. on pace for 63 points, +15, behind the net rank 0.59
Lupul 25 (when extention hits) 4.25 mill 52 points, +2, rank -.08
Ryan Molone 28 4.25 mill 47 point, +5, rank 1.54
Legwand 27 4.5 mill 47 points, -2, .23
Ryder 28 4 mill 51 points, + 30, 1.45
Umburger 26 3.75 49 points, -9, -.90
Penner, 26, 4.25 mill, 36 points, +6, .76
So now before any one points out the abvious, Penenr is the worst, thought his raniking is one of the highest and his +/- is respectable, cleary his points are not what they should be.
However the big thin I want to point out is that you just don't get that much for that money, I think Hartnel is the most you can expect. 30 goals 60 points is a steal for that money, The average team seems to get 25 goals and 50 points. with a good +/- and a good 5 on 5 ranking. Well that is exactly what Penner did last year.
So I guess the point, even though he has been bad this year, he really lived up to his contract last year, is hopefully getting better.
While his contract still looks bad and he has a lot of work to do, he just isn't that bad compared to players getting the same pay checks. Considering he was obtained in a year that the oilers really weren't going to reach the cap and I think purposly over payed him for the first 2 years, to get the last 3 years at market value. seeing as for the last two years the oilers had trouble reaching the cap. Seeing as the next 3 is when the young talent will start to get paid the oilers will have to worry about getting under the cap.
I suppose the big thing is, if penner can be worth his pay check for the next three years, it is all good, I personlly think he can get 25 goals and 50 points for the next three years.
Any way......... perhaps we are to hard on the guy?
I think most people are just frustrated because he contributes so little to the team. He just isn't a player that makes things happen. We got him to score goals and he doesn't do that and doesn't really do anything else.
This problem is escalated by the fact that many believe his work effort is questionable, which is ridiculous considering the amount we are paying him.
I think that the problem is Penner was brought on to this team to fill a role that it is unrealistic for him to fulfill.
The fact of the matter is, if Dustin Penner was making what he should be making (in the range of $2-2.5 million), nobody on these boards would complain a peep about him. In fact, we'd probably regard him as one of the key pieces moving forward.
The hate for Penner has everything to do with the contract Kevin Lowe shoved under his nose, and I for one don't blame the man for signing it.
Could he compete harder? Sure. But so could about 10 other Oilers who don't attract the kind of vitriol Penner does. He's had a disappointing season, but again, so have about 10 other Oilers.
The contract set unreachable expectations. The critics will say his rookie season helped set those expectations, and that's a fair point. But the NHL is full of examples of players who never re-attain the success they had earlier in their careers.
Penner can be valuable asset to a team. He's good 5 on 5. He can skate well for a big guy. He's got good hands. He's good down low.
He's a high-end third line, passable second line winger, who will be good for 20 goals a year during his career. There's plenty of room for a guy like that on my team.
It's just too bad that contract has turned him into a whipping boy.
I am not hard on him because of his production - it is the laziness and lack of consistency/effort. He has all the tools and no tool box.
All year I have given Gagner leash because he is working his tail off and things just were not coming easy to him. Penner is the polar opposite. I couldn't care less about his salary if he pots 20 goals and 45 points and puts in a true effort consistently and sells out for the team. The fact that he doesn't do this bothers me.
He makes himself an easy target. No heart, no dedication, no drive. If he played with the heart and emotion of an Umberger or Hartnell the Oilers would be a much, much better team.
The fact of the matter is, if Dustin Penner was making what he should be making (in the range of $2-2.5 million), nobody on these boards would complain a peep about him. In fact, we'd probably regard him as one of the key pieces moving forward.
The hate for Penner has everything to do with the contract Kevin Lowe shoved under his nose, and I for one don't blame the man for signing it.
Could he compete harder? Sure. But so could about 10 other Oilers who don't attract the kind of vitriol Penner does. He's had a disappointing season, but again, so have about 10 other Oilers.
The contract set unreachable expectations. The critics will say his rookie season helped set those expectations, and that's a fair point. But the NHL is full of examples of players who never re-attain the success they had earlier in their careers.
Penner can be valuable asset to a team. He's good 5 on 5. He can skate well for a big guy. He's got good hands. He's good down low.
He's a high-end third line, passable second line winger, who will be good for 20 goals a year during his career. There's plenty of room for a guy like that on my team.
It's just too bad that contract has turned him into a whipping boy.
Good post. I thought at the time it would be a great signing but in hindsight it doesn't look so good. I still think Penner will be a huge part of this teams future and really, until the cap space starting hurting us why not use it all up.
I think that part of it is that the entire team has largely underachieved all year (this can obviously be contested) and when that happens then the finger pointing begins. Fingers often get pointed at the guys that get paid the most.
Penner was over paid (of necessity) and has under performed this year.
If Penner had done the average of what you have listed, the Oilers would likely be in 5th spot in th ewestern conference. That sort of thing can cause alot of outrage.
I dont put all of Penners problems at his feet though. Ales Hemsky is a hard guy to play with, he tends to take his line mates out of the equation too much offencively (much like Moreau except better dangling). That has a really bad affect on guys like Penner, and in fact like most players.
That said, Penner can be very usefull and I hope he is turning a corner.
It is correct for MacT to demand a performance out of Penner to play. If he didnt, he wouldnt be doing his job, especially with guys like Reddox sitting on the bench who will push lazy players off the ice.
The fact of the matter is, if Dustin Penner was making what he should be making (in the range of $2-2.5 million), nobody on these boards would complain a peep about him. In fact, we'd probably regard him as one of the key pieces moving forward.
The hate for Penner has everything to do with the contract Kevin Lowe shoved under his nose, and I for one don't blame the man for signing it.
Could he compete harder? Sure. But so could about 10 other Oilers who don't attract the kind of vitriol Penner does. He's had a disappointing season, but again, so have about 10 other Oilers.
The contract set unreachable expectations. The critics will say his rookie season helped set those expectations, and that's a fair point. But the NHL is full of examples of players who never re-attain the success they had earlier in their careers.
Penner can be valuable asset to a team. He's good 5 on 5. He can skate well for a big guy. He's got good hands. He's good down low.
He's a high-end third line, passable second line winger, who will be good for 20 goals a year during his career. There's plenty of room for a guy like that on my team.
It's just too bad that contract has turned him into a whipping boy.
I agree with this, however I would tweek a couple things. 2 mill to 2.5 mill is just un realistic, Even Burke would have had to pay him at least 2.5 for one year, and probalby more like 3 mill this year. He is a 3 mill player as is, not much chance you get him for less then that.
So if you take that Lowe basically had extra cap space for the past two years, so in other words he gave him to much, but did so becuase the cap space and money was there.
The don't we just really hold him accountable to be a 4.25 mill player the next three years. Perhaps bad logic I know.
Just saying, the next 3 years will really say just how bad this contract was. So far. AS you stated he has been a good player, but not 4.25 mill, but we also didn't need that cap space.
I am not hard on him because of his production - it is the laziness and lack of consistency/effort. He has all the tools and no tool box.
All year I have given Gagner leash because he is working his tail off and things just were not coming easy to him. Penner is the polar opposite. I couldn't care less about his salary if he pots 20 goals and 45 points and puts in a true effort consistently and sells out for the team. The fact that he doesn't do this bothers me.
He makes himself an easy target. No heart, no dedication, no drive. If he played with the heart and emotion of an Umberger or Hartnell the Oilers would be a much, much better team.
I pretty much agree with this. If he really gave it his all every game, he'd be better liked.
That being said, I think he is doing pretty well with Moreau and Brodziak; he seems to feed of their high energy game. I am curious to see if he keeps it up for any ammount of time.
pretty typical bail-out argument.. preface it with "it's bad" so you can throw that at people who don't agree with the rest of the argument by "I said it's bad", and then attempt to fit "it's not that bad" in there largely by "we'll see what happens in the future"..
coulda, woulda, shoulda aside, here's what it is:
50 pts at best type of player isn't worth 1st, 2nd, 3rd..
penner has not helped this team in winning in 2 years..
that's what hindsight tells us. you can argue about whether it was a worthy gamble, but don't sugar coat the results.
pretty typical bail-out argument.. preface it with "it's bad" so you can throw that at people who don't agree with the rest of the argument by "I said it's bad", and then attempt to fit "it's not that bad" in there largely by "we'll see what happens in the future"..
coulda, woulda, shoulda aside, here's what it is:
50 pts at best type of player isn't worth 1st, 2nd, 3rd.. penner has not helped this team in winning in 2 years..
that's what hindsight tells us. you can argue about whether it was a worthy gamble, but don't sugar coat the results.
what does penner contribute to this team? physical play? pp specialty? pk specialty? leadership? good work ethics?
when a player is not missed on a mediocre team there's no ifs and buts about his value..
physical play - I count defending Hemmer after that late hit by fighting the culprit as physical play
pp specialty - one of the few guys that will stand in front of Souray's bomb and IMO is quite effective there.
plus his +/- is a good indication he is backchecking well and is a defensively responsible player. Which I thought MacT had a hard on for??? but I guess there is an exception to every rule.
Either way you slice it, he should not be played on the 4th line. 4.25 mil for a 4th line player is absurd, rid yourself of the contract or play him in a more offensive role. Don't waste that money.
what does penner contribute to this team? physical play? pp specialty? pk specialty? leadership? good work ethics?
when a player is not missed on a mediocre team there's no ifs and buts about his value..
So I take it his good behind the net rating doens't mean anything to you?
He is good on the PP, there isn't a lot of big guys in the league willing to stand in front of the net.
For the record guys who screen goalies never get as much credit as they deserve, fact is they more often then not don't get points on goals that go in becuase of their screen.
Would Penner have points in that range if he had the same ice time? Yes. He has been jacked a lot and put onto lower lines, benched, press boxed... he has not seen a lot of prime ice time (or ice time in general) this year.
Mac T wants something more out of Penner because that something more is there for him to give. He doesn't want a top line LW just along for the ride and doing just enough to get by. Penner can get 50 points any year on any team if he has the right minutes. Is it worth it to put him there? What does it cost you in terms of effort on the rest of the team if the top line spot is gifted to him despite him showing up without his legs or honor each night? Is it worth the effort to try to get more out of him? Mac T thinks yes. But at this point I think he is also exasperated and done trying for the time being. Its a shame because our team is better with a solid Penner out there. Too bad its no guarantee whether we'll get that ice time or no.
Its especially impossible to play that game when the rest of the team is so shoddy and inconsistent. Including the top line.
he shows flashes where he's got the complete package.
but he takes nights off, doesn't stay in shape, doesn't throw his body around like he should.
I dunno, I don't think he's that different from Invisibister or Torres.
Exept he is more effective when he takes nights off. Bottom line, even though he takes nights off, he still gets points and is a good 5 on 5 player.
If he just really fucuses this summer on the mental asspects of the game, he could still be a good player for the next three years. Also getting into the playoffs will probably help his focus.
I think most people are just frustrated because he contributes so little to the team. He just isn't a player that makes things happen. We got him to score goals and he doesn't do that and doesn't really do anything else.
This problem is escalated by the fact that many believe his work effort is questionable, which is ridiculous considering the amount we are paying him.
I think that the problem is Penner was brought on to this team to fill a role that it is unrealistic for him to fulfill.
Exept he is more effective when he takes nights off. Bottom line, even though he takes nights off, he still gets points and is a good 5 on 5 player.
If he just really fucuses this summer on the mental asspects of the game, he could still be a good player for the next three years. Also getting into the playoffs will probably help his focus.
I completely agree. If he could develop his mental strength I think he's going to be a good player. I understand that he is 27 so he's a little older, but this is only his 3rd NHL season. There are very few 3rd year players that have the mental game all together and I firmly believe that he would be a much more useful player under a new coach because it will be, largely, a clean slate.
