with quick emerging in la what does it take to get one of L.A.s goalie prospects? id like bernier but i think it would be at too high a price. im also not sure how much the kings want to make a playoff run. if both quick and bernier are out where does that leave zatkoff? having 3 young goalies is a recipe for trade offers from a team that needs one like the flyers
initial offer
marty biron playoff proven 1a goaltender unrestricted at the end of the year. gives you a known commodity going in to the playoffs to backup quick. could be resigned to bridge the gap between quick and bernier or start if neither shows hes ready.
with quick emerging in la what does it take to get one of L.A.s goalie prospects? id like bernier but i think it would be at too high a price. im also not sure how much the kings want to make a playoff run. if both quick and bernier are out where does that leave zatkoff? having 3 young goalies is a recipe for trade offers from a team that needs one like the flyers
initial offer
marty biron playoff proven 1a goaltender unrestricted at the end of the year. gives you a known commodity going in to the playoffs to backup quick. could be resigned to bridge the gap between quick and bernier or start if neither shows hes ready.
for
zatkoff
Since the Kings are far from playoff contention at the moment we speak, it would be stupid to pick up Biron since he sucks.
We know that he sucks in the regular season, and I can't say he's good in post season since he has only participated as starter in only one playoff run.
1. if Dean were to go after a Flyers goalie, i can almost promise you he'd want Antero Niittymaki. he has alluded to as much to a few people on more than one occassion... without using any names.
2. i know it may sound funny and WAY too premature because none of the Kings goaltenders have proven much outside of their promise beyond a small handful of games, but after 30+ plus years of marginal, mediocre or ZERO goaltenders, a current netminder to the Kings organization is akin to a rifle in Heston's hands... i don't think he'd move any of them unless he's the one seeing a considerable edge in the deal.
3. i don't think you'd see the Kings shuffling another goaltender out of Los Angeles until this summer at the earliest. Erik Ersberg will be a free agent (as was Jason LaBarbera) and a decision will be made at some point which would likely also be contingent upon how the Kings finish the season and with whom in net.
Since the Kings are far from playoff contention at the moment we speak, it would be stupid to pick up Biron since he sucks.
We know that he sucks in the regular season, and I can't say he's good in post season since he has only participated as starter in only one playoff run.
At little harsh on Biron, no? He doesn't suck. He's not great, but he doesn't suck. He certainly looked good in the playoffs last year.
a couple of things...
2. i know it may sound funny and WAY too premature because none of the Kings goaltenders have proven much outside of their promise beyond a small handful of games, but after 30+ plus years of marginal, mediocre or ZERO goaltenders, a current netminder to the Kings organization is akin to a rifle in Heston's hands... i don't think he'd move any of them unless he's the one seeing a considerable edge in the deal.
Completely agree. I was thinking about this during the weekend. The Kings could possibly be on the verge of having one of the best problems they've ever had with the emergence of Quick and Bernier's game picking up as of late in Manchester. I highly doubt any of these guys get moved before the end of the year so DL can make a have a real good look before he makes a decision this summer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wabwat
3. i don't think you'd see the Kings shuffling another goaltender out of Los Angeles until this summer at the earliest. Erik Ersberg will be a free agent (as was Jason LaBarbera) and a decision will be made at some point which would likely also be contingent upon how the Kings finish the season and with whom in net.
Assuming Ersberg finishes out the season as well as he started, I hope he gets re-signed in the summer time to allow Bernier to continue to get lots of playing time in the A. Given DL's history of taking his time with goaltenders, I think this is the most likely scenario. I think the only one that could be had is Zatkoff and as wabwat said, I doubt that happens unless there is good reason to make the move. The only goalie in the Kings organization I could see being moved is Daniel Taylor.
Getting rid of Labarbara really cleared a bit of log jam in the Kings farm system.
Since the Kings are far from playoff contention at the moment we speak, it would be stupid to pick up Biron since he sucks.
We know that he sucks in the regular season, and I can't say he's good in post season since he has only participated as starter in only one playoff run.
we're 3 points out of a spot atm.
not exactly far from contention.
the problem is i dont think that biron is that superior to ersberg or quick at this point in time. zatkoff is too good of a prospect to give up for what would essentially be a lateral move.
with quick emerging in la what does it take to get one of L.A.s goalie prospects? id like bernier but i think it would be at too high a price. im also not sure how much the kings want to make a playoff run. if both quick and bernier are out where does that leave zatkoff? having 3 young goalies is a recipe for trade offers from a team that needs one like the flyers
initial offer
marty biron playoff proven 1a goaltender unrestricted at the end of the year. gives you a known commodity going in to the playoffs to backup quick. could be resigned to bridge the gap between quick and bernier or start if neither shows hes ready.
for
zatkoff
So let's make our current goalie situation worse, wait 3 years and hope he turns into a starter?
Let's also trade Carter for Stamkos, he's projected to be better in a few years.
Since the Kings are far from playoff contention at the moment we speak, it would be stupid to pick up Biron since he sucks.
We know that he sucks in the regular season, and I can't say he's good in post season since he has only participated as starter in only one playoff run.
he doesnt suck hes the kind of average where you say he doesnt suck and its understood that there are far worse starters. your 2 pts out and possibly going to the playoffs for the first time in years id think thered be an interest in a guy whos been there before. its alot of pressure to put on a rookie goaltender and a reliable backup is something a winning team would be looking for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wabwat
a couple of things...
1. if Dean were to go after a Flyers goalie, i can almost promise you he'd want Antero Niittymaki. he has alluded to as much to a few people on more than one occassion... without using any names.
2. i know it may sound funny and WAY too premature because none of the Kings goaltenders have proven much outside of their promise beyond a small handful of games, but after 30+ plus years of marginal, mediocre or ZERO goaltenders, a current netminder to the Kings organization is akin to a rifle in Heston's hands... i don't think he'd move any of them unless he's the one seeing a considerable edge in the deal.
3. i don't think you'd see the Kings shuffling another goaltender out of Los Angeles until this summer at the earliest. Erik Ersberg will be a free agent (as was Jason LaBarbera) and a decision will be made at some point which would likely also be contingent upon how the Kings finish the season and with whom in net.
1 if hes interested in nitty hell probably make an offer this summer when hes unrestricted. I think hes an upgrade over ersberg but i hear hes really looking for the chance to start which may not be an option if quick continues to play well.
2 remember we had chechmanek first. i get what your saying.
3. dealing a prospect for a proven player is a move playoff teams make. with young players emerging for the kings and a push happening it would show lombardi has confidence this team can win. rebuilding cant last forever and you only need one starting goalie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer
You don't trade Biron for a prospect goalie in the middle of the season, especially when you feel you are a contender.
How does that even make sense?
biron is a guy. he makes 2 mil more than the guy behind him. you deal the more expensive guy for someone who may be the man and not just a guy. both of our goaltenders arent going to stay next year so we try and get an asset now. im confident in either going into the playoffs so im willing to trade either but i think brion gets the better return.
Yeah, it doesn't really make sense for either side. If we deal for a goalie it needs to be someone who is a clear upgrade. Not some unproven prospect.
i dont think the flyers have the cap space to sign or the assets to trade for an elite goaltender. the real option is to develop one and we arent. what we do have are two 1a starters so we ride one of them for now and deal the other to kickstart development.i think marty brings back more in return and cap relief but im not opposed to dealing nitty + to try and get a prospect further along in the development process.
i dont think the flyers have the cap space to sign or the assets to trade for an elite goaltender. the real option is to develop one and we arent. what we do have are two 1a starters so we ride one of them for now and deal the other to kickstart development.i think marty brings back more in return and cap relief but im not opposed to dealing nitty + to try and get a prospect further along in the development process.
Stupid trade for the Flyers. Sure, take us out of contention for the next 3 years. Don't have the assets? We have all of the assets in the world. We have a bunch of NHL ready forwards and NHL ready defensemen, as well as a bunch of good prospects.
3. dealing a prospect for a proven player is a move playoff teams make.
So then what is trading your starting goalie for the Kings 4th goalie?
Quote:
biron is a guy. he makes 2 mil more than the guy behind him. you deal the more expensive guy for someone who may be the man and not just a guy. both of our goaltenders arent going to stay next year so we try and get an asset now. im confident in either going into the playoffs so im willing to trade either but i think brion gets the better return.
So then, if YOU want to make sure the Flyers get something for Biron, what about the Kings? What makes you think they'd trade for a UFA goalie. I mean, making sure you have a return on your UFA is more important that trying to win, so why bother? They might not re-sign Biron.
It's not zero sense, it's sense divided by zero. It is undefined. Paul Holmgren will worry about next season, next season. Biron has even intention of being here next season, the Flyers have been in contract talks with him. But screw what gives us the best chance to win, I'd rather make sure we get something for our UFA's.
We probably won't need or trade for any goalie unless Ersberg is unable to be resigned in the offseason and/or suddenly falls off the map, performance wise.
If Philly wants Bernier, we'd like a top six forward in return. Pieces can be added to Bernier depending on the forward. That is Los Angeles' most glaring need at the moment.
In the end, though, I really don't see Lombardi messing with anything on this team outside of possibly adding a UFA or two during the offseason. We're still too early in our rebuild to be shipping guys off before we see how they develop/where they fit in on the team.
i dont think the flyers have the cap space to sign or the assets to trade for an elite goaltender. the real option is to develop one and we arent. what we do have are two 1a starters so we ride one of them for now and deal the other to kickstart development.i think marty brings back more in return and cap relief but im not opposed to dealing nitty + to try and get a prospect further along in the development process.
What's the rush to develop a goalie? Niittymaki is the only goalie to be homegrown and actually stick with the team and at least be a decent NHL goalie for a few years since Ron Hextall. It is obviously not a strong suit for the Flyers, and they've done just fine without developing a star goalie. 'Kickstart development.' Wait 6 months, draft your own goalie.
he makes 2 mil more than the guy behind him. you deal the more expensive guy for someone who may be the man and not just a guy.
And he proved in the playoffs last season that he's capable of giving us a chance to win. You don't trade a known commodity for an unproven prospect goalie in the middle of a playoff run. And just who is the backup to Niitty? Talk about sabotaging a playoff run.
You want to revisit this in the offseason, then be my guest, but it makes no sense whatsoever right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainpaxil
both of our goaltenders arent going to stay next year so we try and get an asset now. im confident in either going into the playoffs so im willing to trade either but i think brion gets the better return.
Why worry about an asset now? Worry about it in the offseason, not in the middle of a Cup run. You aren't talking about trading for a guy who can help now (if he can ever help), and you aren't talking about a top-shelf goalie prospect (like Schneider).
Stupid trade for the Flyers. Sure, take us out of contention for the next 3 years. Don't have the assets? We have all of the assets in the world. We have a bunch of NHL ready forwards and NHL ready defensemen, as well as a bunch of good prospects.
thats my point. those forwards and thier future replacements in our system are what has us in contention now and in the future. not our goaltending. those prospects that we do have are counted on to cover the loses of vets we have now and will lose to free agency. of whats left past that doest get us an elite goalie. i see a difference between an asset and a movable asset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514
So then what is trading your starting goalie for the Kings 4th goalie?
So then, if YOU want to make sure the Flyers get something for Biron, what about the Kings? What makes you think they'd trade for a UFA goalie. I mean, making sure you have a return on your UFA is more important that trying to win, so why bother? They might not re-sign Biron.
It's not zero sense, it's sense divided by zero. It is undefined. Paul Holmgren will worry about next season, next season. Biron has even intention of being here next season, the Flyers have been in contract talks with him. But screw what gives us the best chance to win, I'd rather make sure we get something for our UFA's.
dude, have you watched this team? do you really think its our elite goaltending giving us a chance to win every night? talk about cause for a facepalm. marty is negotiating great. we continue to have mediocre goaltending and no one anywhere close in the sytem. if we draft a goalie hed be 3-5 years away. nitty is not negotiating and wants a chance to start. theyre both 6 in one hand half a dozen in the other for me.
la is in the opposite postition. what they dont have is a veteran benchmark goalie. and they have not one but 3 serious goalie prospects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer
Well, I'm glad you cleared that up.
And he proved in the playoffs last season that he's capable of giving us a chance to win. You don't trade a known commodity for an unproven prospect goalie in the middle of a playoff run. And just who is the backup to Niitty? Talk about sabotaging a playoff run.
You want to revisit this in the offseason, then be my guest, but it makes no sense whatsoever right now.
Why worry about an asset now? Worry about it in the offseason, not in the middle of a Cup run. You aren't talking about trading for a guy who can help now (if he can ever help), and you aren't talking about a top-shelf goalie prospect (like Schneider).
Makes no sense.
nitty consitently outplayed biron both leading up to the playoffs last year and so far this season. with them both impending free agents you give the guy a shot. if he doesnt work out your stuck with what you have mediocre goaltending or a possible free agent. at least you have a replacement developing.
id love schneider but he wont be available untill after a decision has been made and one of either marty or nitty is gone.
nitty consitently outplayed biron both leading up to the playoffs last year and so far this season.
That's all nice and stuff, but it doesn't answer how it makes sense for a contending team to trade a player who can help now for a player who may never help. It also doesn't answer who is the backup for Niitty this season. Ask the Canadiens how trading a guy (Huet) for an asset helped them last year. It would be a mistake to move Biron at this time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainpaxil
with them both impending free agents you give the guy a shot. if he doesnt work out your stuck with what you have mediocre goaltending or a possible free agent. at least you have a replacement developing.
You do not trade a #1 goaltender (even a fringe one) in the middle of a playoff push for an unproven goalie prospect (who isn't even a top-tier prospect). I fail to see how this is so hard to understand...
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainpaxil
id love schneider but he wont be available untill after a decision has been made and one of either marty or nitty is gone.
So? That doesn't mean we should downgrade our chances this season for fear we may lose Biron or Niitty for nothing. Is Detroit going to trade Franzen for fear of losing him for nothing this offseason? What you are proposing just doesn't happen, and when it does (Montreal), it more often than not ends up badly.
That's all nice and stuff, but it doesn't answer how it makes sense for a contending team to trade a player who can help now for a player who may never help. It also doesn't answer who is the backup for Niitty this season. Ask the Canadiens how trading a guy (Huet) for an asset helped them last year. It would be a mistake to move Biron at this time..
short answer salary cap. the situation here is different than in montreal as they had a young guy to give the reigns to. what we have are two 1a s
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer
You do not trade a #1 goaltender (even a fringe one) in the middle of a playoff push for an unproven goalie prospect (who isn't even a top-tier prospect). I fail to see how this is so hard to understand....
you trade from a position of depth to acquire an asset of need i dont see how thats all that hard either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer
So? That doesn't mean we should downgrade our chances this season for fear we may lose Biron or Niitty for nothing. Is Detroit going to trade Franzen for fear of losing him for nothing this offseason? What you are proposing just doesn't happen, and when it does (Montreal), it more often than not ends up badly.
i dont see us downgrading in trading either nitty or biron. thats as plain as i can put it. im not afraid of biron leaving im afraid of nitty leaving and putting up the same or better numbers then marty on a better contract with still no one in sight to take over. id deal nitty and resign marty but i dont think he gets as much back.
we have 2 1as, no starter and no prospect who projects as an nhl goalie. id rather have 1 and a goalie for the future and worry about a backup in the offseaon then try and manage all 3 with limited cap space.
one of them should be dealt. i saw a possible need and an asset that should be available. i saw the potential to acquire a guy that doesnt seem to be in the plans right now who still has some high potential and isnt that far away. if the return is the issue that i undertsand but something should be done before the offseason.
with quick emerging in la what does it take to get one of L.A.s goalie prospects? id like bernier but i think it would be at too high a price. im also not sure how much the kings want to make a playoff run. if both quick and bernier are out where does that leave zatkoff? having 3 young goalies is a recipe for trade offers from a team that needs one like the flyers
initial offer
marty biron playoff proven 1a goaltender unrestricted at the end of the year. gives you a known commodity going in to the playoffs to backup quick. could be resigned to bridge the gap between quick and bernier or start if neither shows hes ready.
for
zatkoff
This is crazy. Why would the Flyers deal Biron for a prospect. They will be one of the favorites in the East. If the Flyers do any deals this season, I'd expect them to be for proven players. They may trade for a goaltender, but it would be a proven #1.
short answer salary cap. the situation here is different than in montreal as they had a young guy to give the reigns to. what we have are two 1a s
There are better ways to clear cap space than to downgrade at the goalie position during a playoff run. And the Montreal situation IS the same, because like the Canadiens, it leaves us without a viable backup (hell, even Montreal had Halak, which is more than Philly can say).
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainpaxil
you trade from a position of depth to acquire an asset of need i dont see how thats all that hard either.
Since when is our goaltending considered a "position of depth"? Surely you jest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainpaxil
i dont see us downgrading in trading either nitty or biron. thats as plain as i can put it.
Ummm, trading either one right now for Zatkoff is SERIOUSLY donwgrading. How can you even begin to argue otherwise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainpaxil
im not afraid of biron leaving im afraid of nitty leaving and putting up the same or better numbers then marty on a better contract with still no one in sight to take over. id deal nitty and resign marty but i dont think he gets as much back.
Well, they aren't both leaving, so if the Flyers decide to resign Niitty, there is nothing to fear. You are so worried about trying to gain an asset for Biron that you are oblivious to the fact that you a sabotaging our playoff chances this season (and not even delivering us an upper-tier goalie prospect in the process).
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainpaxil
we have 2 1as, no starter and no prospect who projects as an nhl goalie. id rather have 1 and a goalie for the future and worry about a backup in the offseaon then try and manage all 3 with limited cap space.
Worst case scenario we can use the draft to acquire our future NHL goalie AND choose between Niitty or Biron while securing a backup. Doesn't make sense to do it now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainpaxil
one of them should be dealt.
Yes, in the offseason. And if we can't, so be it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainpaxil
i saw a possible need and an asset that should be available. i saw the potential to acquire a guy that doesnt seem to be in the plans right now who still has some high potential and isnt that far away. if the return is the issue that i undertsand but something should be done before the offseason.
NOTHING should be done before the offseason unless it improves out goaltending NOW. What you are proposing doesn't even guarantee any future success between the pipes. You want to hinder our playoff chances this year for a "maybe" prospect? Look, if you want to offer up a pick or something for Zatkoff, then be my guest. If you want to revisit this "Biron for an asset" in the offseason, then be my guest. But what you are proposing now cannot be rationalized, certainly not by a GM that has any clue what they're doing.
Zatkoff for Biron would be a steal for Philly. We only got a 7th rounder for Labarbera... and he is quite comparable to Biron. I don't have a clue why you wouldn't jump at a chance to take a young goalie who is being bred in the Ranford/Hextall goalie growing pipeline.
Look what they have done with Quick! Then we got Bernier/Zatkoff/Jones/Rowat. After being developed by our goalie coach/asst GM, they are all looking like true NHL prospects. Grab one before it is lost in a package for Kovalchuk
Quote:
Originally Posted by leek
This is crazy. Why would the Flyers deal Biron for a prospect. They will be one of the favorites in the East. If the Flyers do any deals this season, I'd expect them to be for proven players. They may trade for a goaltender, but it would be a proven #1.
Yeah, it doesn't really make sense for either side. If we deal for a goalie it needs to be someone who is a clear upgrade. Not some unproven prospect.
