FYI, europe.espn360.com sucks

[dvanders]

Hi all,
This is just a warning of how ESPN360 treats their customers. I wanted a refund because the games are not appearing within the 12 hours they stated in the FAQ. But, they won't refund me based on bogus reasons which include lies. Lucky for them I have the entire chat session with their support person and Manager.

Long story short: if you live in Europe and want NHL hockey the next day, I advise you spend your money elsewhere.

Here it is the entire chat session, uncensored except names have been removed:

Welcome to Video Player Technical Support. An agent will be with you shortly.
You have been connected to Support Person.
Support Person: Hello! Thank you for contacting Video Player Technical Support. How may I assist you today?
Me: Hi. Archived games are taking too long to appear. I would like a refund on the NHL early bird pass.
Support Person: You can find them within 48 hours.
Me: the FAQ says under 12 hours.
Support Person: Yes but due to some technical delay its taking a little more time but it should be there soon.
Me: OK thanks for that info. But I have decided that this is not the service for me. I have not used the service yet so I would like a refund please.
Me: And for reference, it is also very annoything that the player spoils games by printing the scores in various places.
Support Person: We cannot give you a refund, you can wait for the VOD
Me: Why is that?
Me: Hello?
Support Person: One moment please.
Support Person: Its mentioned in the FAQs : http://demand.five.tv/faq.aspx
Me: Sorry I think you are confusing things. I purchased the NHL Early Bird Pass of europe.espn360.com. Their FAQ is at http://europe.espn360.com/help.aspx?...ions#payment_3
Support Person: Sorry for that. Please bare with me while I give you the right link.
Me: Even on the FAQ of the unrelated website you just sent it says "If you have technical problems, contact our support staff to help you fix them via our live text-based chat system. If the content proves to be defective or unplayable and this is the fault of Five, in such cases Five may offer a replacement copy or a refund." I consider that not meeting the promise of archives within 12 hours constitutes a defective product which justifies a refund.
Support Person: The archives are up in 18 hours, we cannot refund, since you have viewed the live content. Please be patient.
Me: I have not ever viewed live content. Live NHL content is on in the middle of the night where I live.
Me: When I purchased the pass the FAQ said 12 hours. You guys have changed it recently.
Me: Here is proof from Oct 3rd in the google cached version of your FAQ: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:QOEBe3FFj0gJ:https://europe.espn360.com/help.aspx%3Fhelp%3DNHL%2520Center%2520Ice%2520FAQ+ espn360+"12+hours"&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5
Me: Can I please speak to your manager?
Manager has entered the session.
Manager: Hello
Me: Hellow
Me: Manager do you see the history of this chat session?
Manager: Yes I do, I'm sorry but we cannot refund you. The FAQ states that games will be up in 18 hours. The link you provided was for last season. This season we are getting video up in 18 hours not 12. We apologize for any confusion we have caused.
Me: I purchased before October 3rd, so I purchased under those conditions
Me: I insist that I get a refund.
Manager: I'm sorry but we cannot refund you. As I have stated this years archives are up in 18 hours not 12.
Me: Sorry but you have misrepresented the service. The FAQ stated 12 hours when I purchased. It did not state it was for last season anywhere.
Manager: Again sir we cannot refund you, the FAQ has stated 18 hours for the last few months.
Me: No that is incorrect. As I presented proof that on Oct 2008 16:21:57 GMT the FAQ stated 12 hours.
Me: sorry, that's 3 Oct 2008 16:21:57 GMT
Manager: Sir, for the last time we cannot offer you a refund.
Me: OK I will make you my last offer: I clearly have justified reasons for a refund here. So, if you cannot meet my justified demands for this misrepresented service I will (a) post this chat log to popular internet forums frequented by your potential clients and (b) initiate a charge-back with Visa.
Manager: I'm sorry we cannot come to an agreement on this, I stick by our FAQ and the "Terms" you agreed to. We cannot refund you.
Manager: Is there anything else I may assist you with today?
Me: May I speak with your manager?
Manager: I am the manager.
Me: OK so you are forcing me to do something I do not want to do
Manager: I'm sorry you feel that way, but as I have stated we cannot refund you. We stick to our FAQ and the "Terms" you agreed to when you purchased.
Me: OK. I have no other choice. Ciao.

[hototogisu]

Wow that's pretty ridiculous. You're totally justified in asking for a refund but I have to ask, is waiting 6 more hours for the archived games to show up the end of the world...?

[Devilswede]

Wow that sucks man. Thanks for sharing. I was thinking about getting it because of the games on demand....now I probably have to re-consider it.

[dvanders]

Originally Posted by hototogisu

Wow that's pretty ridiculous. You're totally justified in asking for a refund but I have to ask, is waiting 6 more hours for the archived games to show up the end of the world...?

I live in France. 12 hours delay means I can watch games the following evening. 18 hours delay means they come available at 2am here the following day.. so I wait 2 days. That sucks.

[hototogisu]

Ah okay, yeah I definitely see where you're coming from now. I can't believe they would be so unaccomodating though.

[dvanders]

Originally Posted by hototogisu

Ah okay, yeah I definitely see where you're coming from now. I can't believe they would be so unaccomodating though.

Exactly the point. I really hate having to go this route. I want to warn others though how they treat their customers. They flat out lie, and don't keep to their terms which state you can get a refund "if you don't open the package"... whatever that means. Since I never viewed a live game and only watched 10 seconds of the archives from last season I think that I didn't open the package.

[Reds4Life]

Just download it from 'PM me' - in HD quality within few hours.

[Jarrko Ruttu*]

Hi, I bought the early bird pass this season as well which was around 80$. A big improvement from last season when I was using pay tv for viewing a meager 2-3 games per week for around >200$. The quality is adequate for my purposes, although I think you can get better quality with the new NHL center ice subscription (price around 160$).

I don't see what is the gripe here, you can view the games before you have to bet for new ones in most cases, don't you? Or are you a stickler for what they promise in their terms? Or do you wish you'd bought the NHL subscription instead?

I guess if I'd known NHL was offering this new service I might have bought that one and, consequently, paid too much in my case as I don't need that kind of quality.

[dvanders]

Originally Posted by Jarrko Ruttu

Hi, I bought the early bird pass this season as well which was around 80$. A big improvement from last season when I was using pay tv for viewing a meager 2-3 games per week for around >200$. The quality is adequate for my purposes, although I think you can get better quality with the new NHL center ice subscription (price around 160$). I don't see what is the gripe here, you can view the games before you have to bet for new ones in most cases, don't you? Or are you a stickler for what they promise in their terms? Or do you wish you'd bought the NHL subscription instead? I guess if I'd known NHL was offering this new service I might have bought that one and, consequently, paid too much in my case as I don't need that kind of quality.

I don't bet on games. I am a fan.. don't like games to be spoiled, so would like to watch games the following night (or even morning if possible!).

BTW, the NHL Gamecenter service isn't available in Europe anyways.

[Pepper]

Like the original poster said, 12h delay means the games are available at "prime-time" (CET). 18h delay means it's available late at night which is inconvienent for many viewers.

IMHO totally valid reason to cancel the purchase if you can't watch the games live.

I'm not sure how much power that manager has but he just broke one of the golden rules of customer service. A customer reclamation handled well is one of the best ways to promote your business but a customer reclamation handled poorly is one of the best ways to ruin your business. ESPN could have compensated the 80 or so bucks and get a customer who's probably willing to come back in the future, now they lost a customer who will most likely spread the word around and make ESPN look bad in the eyes of many potential customers.

Someone at ESPN should really take customer service 101.

[Jarrko Ruttu*]

Originally Posted by dvanders

BTW, the NHL Gamecenter service isn't available in Europe anyways.

That slipped my mind...I just remember thinking: WOW they totally ripped me off!

Do you mean you don't want that you know the result to spoil the game for you? There are too many temptations for you to see the result? Yeah, if so I agree, it does spoil it for excitement in part, but if you want to analyze the game I don't think it does...

[dvanders]

Originally Posted by Jarrko Ruttu

That slipped my mind...I just remember thinking: WOW they totally ripped me off!

Do you mean you don't want that you know the result to spoil the game for you? There are too many temptations for you to see the result? Yeah, if so I agree, it does spoil it for excitement in part, but if you want to analyze the game I don't think it does...

Yes.. too many temptations from tsn, forums, etc... The 12 hours the FAQ used to state (until they changed it this week??) means I can just go to work, avoid surfing the web too much, then go home and watch yesterdays game. 18 hours means espn360 is useless if you want to enjoy a game without knowing the outcome.

Look, none of this matters... they changed the terms that I agreed to. I want a refund.

BTW, I am sitting in another chat session with ESPN360 right now. I think I am getting the silent treatment though since the new support person isn't replying to my questions.

[dvanders]

After another 40 minutes arguing.. I will apparently get a refund. But that is only after many more demonstrations of "excellent" customer service.

Here is the latest chat log:

Welcome to Video Player Technical Support. An agent will be with you shortly.
You have been connected to Support Person #2.
Support Person #2: Hello! Thank you for contacting Video Player Technical Support. How may I assist you today?
Me: Hi. I purchased NHL Early Bird Pass. I haven't used it yet. I would like a refund on my payment.
Support Person #2: One moment please.
Support Person #2: I'm sorry but we cannot refund you. The FAQ states that games will be up in 18 hours. The link you provided was for last season. This season we are getting video up in 18 hours not 12. We apologize for any confusion we have caused.
Me: 1. Thats a lie. On the FAQ I provided it lists an October 15th, 2008 date further down in reference to the expiration of the early bird package.
Me: 2. This is all beside the point. I have not used the service and want a refund. Your terms clearly state that 100% refund is possible in this case.
Me: Here are your terms: Our refund policy is similar to the refund policy when purchasing any piece of software or other media like a CD or DVD at a store: there are no refunds once you open the package. Therefore, our refund policy is as follows:
- For live events:
- Requested before live event takes place: 100%
- Requested after live event takes place: No refunds
- For "on demand" videos: No refunds
Support Person #2: I am sorry. but from your chat history our manager has already told you that we cannot refund you.
Me: I think the manager was confused re the 12/18 hour thing. The point is that I have not used. In your terms I have not "OPENED THE PACKAGE". Do you not personally think this is unreasonable?
Me: Can you refer me to someone who can help me. Perhaps your manager's manager?
Me: hello?
Me: The chat session isn't working for me. Can you please send me a phone number of ESPN360 Support?
Support Person #2: I'm sorry but you have contacted the webcast technical and billing support department. We do not have the information you have requested available to us. Are there any webcast billing or technical issues I can assist you with today?
Me: Now you're getting patronizing. Did anyone at instantservice.com take a course in customer support? I would like this complaint to be escalated; what is the procedure?
Me: Can I speak to your manager?
Me: I still don't understand why I can't get a refund.
Same Manager has entered the session.
Same Manager: The answer is still the same sir. No refund.
Me: please outline your reasons why not.
Same Manager: As I have already told you, you agreed to our terms of service and the FAQ. We cannot and will not refund you. The FAQ clearly states 18 hours for the archives.
Me: I want a refund because I have not used the service and will not use the service. 18 hours is not the point. Your terms state that I can get a refund if I did not "OPEN THE PACKAGE"
Same Manager: No refund!
Same Manager: End of story, you are not going to get a refund.
Me: Never have I been so mistreated by customer service before.
Me: I want to know the contact information for the complaints department for your employer
Same Manager: We have been very civil, but you are not listening. We are not giving you a refund, the FAQ clearly states it is an 18 hour delay.
Same Manager: You can email them here: europe360support@espn360.com
Me: 18 hours is not the point. I did not "OPEN THE PACKAGE".
Me: Is there a phone number?
Same Manager: No there is not.
Me: Mailing address? PO Box?
Support Person #2 has left the session.
Same Manager: No
Me: What is the name of your employer?
Same Manager: ESPN
Same Manager: We are ESPN
Same Manager: Is there anything else I may assist you with today?
Me: How is ESPN related to five.tv?
Same Manager: We aren't, we are ESPN and have no affiliation with Five.
Me: Because I was referred to the five.tv FAQ earlier. How come ESPN support referred me to five.tv?
Me: Does europe360support@espn360.com go to the same department I am speaking with now?
Same Manager: That was a mistake, the agent sent the wrong link. They were probably looking over that for their own means since they are a Five TV viewer. We apologize for that.
Same Manager: That email is for out support department.
Me: So ESPN doesn't have a phone number or mailing address?
Same Manager: No, ESPN360 Europe is email and chat only.
Me: Can you please outline the cases where someone CAN receive a refund for the NHL pass?
Same Manager: - Requested before live event takes place: 100%
- Requested after live event takes place: No refunds
- For "on demand" videos: No refunds
Me: I did not purchase a "live event" or an "on demand video". I purchased a package.. which states "Our refund policy is similar to the refund policy when purchasing any piece of software or other media like a CD or DVD at a store: there are no refunds once you open the package." I DID NOT OPEN THE PACKAGE.
Same Manager: You came in here requesting a refund because you did not want to wait more than 12 hour when the FAQ clearly stated 18 hours. We told you we cannot refund you for that. Now you are saying because you did not view you should get a refund. We are not going to bend over backwards for you on this. We told you no refund and we are sticking to that. You will get no refund.
Me: So, if I had first asked for a refund because I did not "open the package" then I would have received it?
Same Manager: You may have been given a refund.
Same Manager: But only if we had verified that no content was delivered.
Me: That is unreasonable. I have many reasons for requesting a refund. Just because the first one doesn't count in your books doesn't mean I am ineligible to receive any refund in future. For example, another reason I want a refund is because the Video Player spoils the scores of games, so it is impossible to watch a game without knowing the outcome.
Same Manager: I have refunded your account; please note refunds take 5-15 business days to post to your account.
Same Manager: Is there anything else I may assist you with today?
Me: Happy ending. I will be checking the account transactions and checkin if there is any problem.
Same Manager: Good for you.
Same Manager: Thank you for contacting Live Support. Have a great day!
Thank you for using Video Player Technical Support. You may now close this window.
Your session has ended. You may now close this window.

[SerialSeb]

WOW he's bad
That manager is so bad.
It's not even funny.
Maybe he got a dumbass before you asking very unreasonale requests but that is just so lame. It's embarrassing to be that bad. The guy should become a landlord, he's got all the social skills necessary.

[Gozer]

Man, I'm surprised you managed to be so civil. I would probably have gone ballistic in a situation like that. You can just sense that he just wanted to tell you to go to hell or something. At least you got the refund in the end.

[Phinor]

The problem is, you are certainly not alone. Me, along with a whole bunch of others bought ESPN360 exactly because of the mere 12 hour delay of archiving games. The first game of last night, TOR-DET was actually in the archives precisely 12 hours after it started airing. Now that would be absolutely perfect - you get home, the early morning matches are in the archives and you can start watching right away. The additional 6 hour delay makes this service completely worthless for most Europeans. Now for the ridiculous part: TOR-DET is STILL the only match from last night in the archives. It's been over 20 hours since the other games begun and they are nowhere to be seen. So they edited the FAQ on their own and still break their own rules.

I personally feel like cancelling my subscription, but I did watch the live stream for a bit last night so according to that manager, I have no right to cancel although they changed the rules of the game after I subscribed. Maybe I, among others, just need to keep bugging them until they give us our money back or change their policy because clearly they could archive the games earlier if they wanted to.

Few more annoying things in this new and improved ESPN360 over last year's version: The matches are broadcoasted with a video player of their own - the quality is somewhat lower than last year and you can't actually get the live games on full screen and continue working on your other monitor. The moment you do anything outside the video window, it drops out of full screen. Not just that, but you can't even get the full screen mode on your second monitor, it automatically moves the picture to your main screen.

[MountainHawk]

Did you pay with a credit card?

At least here in the US, this would be a slam dunk. Call the credit card, tell them you are contesting the charge because they failed to provide the service they advertised, and you'd have a better than average chance of them canceling the charge.

Not sure if the same thing works in the EU, but given the overall better consumer protections over there, I would think it would.

[Ola]

dvanders- will you keep visiting HF in the future, or can you send me the "proof" from the FAQ section that they said up to 12 hrs earlier?

I cleraly remember them saying that before... And I've also heard that it was in fact 48 hrs last season -- not 12, according to the poster "Chimp".

[Ola]

Originally Posted by MountainHawk

Did you pay with a credit card?

At least here in the US, this would be a slam dunk. Call the credit card, tell them you are contesting the charge because they failed to provide the service they advertised, and you'd have a better than average chance of them canceling the charge.

Not sure if the same thing works in the EU, but given the overall better consumer protections over there, I would think it would.

Yeah it does. (in europe too)

You can contact anyone in the seller line, and since its a credit buy you are basically buying it from both the "bank" and ESPN. Its the same thing when you buy a car, say a Ford, from a car-dealer. If there is a fault in the car you can turn to both the cardealer and Ford.

[Ola]

Originally Posted by Phinor

The problem is, you are certainly not alone. Me, along with a whole bunch of others bought ESPN360 exactly because of the mere 12 hour delay of archiving games. The first game of last night, TOR-DET was actually in the archives precisely 12 hours after it started airing. Now that would be absolutely perfect - you get home, the early morning matches are in the archives and you can start watching right away. The additional 6 hour delay makes this service completely worthless for most Europeans. Now for the ridiculous part: TOR-DET is STILL the only match from last night in the archives. It's been over 20 hours since the other games begun and they are nowhere to be seen. So they edited the FAQ on their own and still break their own rules.

I personally feel like cancelling my subscription, but I did watch the live stream for a bit last night so according to that manager, I have no right to cancel although they changed the rules of the game after I subscribed. Maybe I, among others, just need to keep bugging them until they give us our money back or change their policy because clearly they could archive the games earlier if they wanted to.

Few more annoying things in this new and improved ESPN360 over last year's version: The matches are broadcoasted with a video player of their own - the quality is somewhat lower than last year and you can't actually get the live games on full screen and continue working on your other monitor. The moment you do anything outside the video window, it drops out of full screen. Not just that, but you can't even get the full screen mode on your second monitor, it automatically moves the picture to your main screen.

I am sure its the same in Finland as in Sweden. Just call your bank, sound angry and demand your money back from the sheitty service you got...

If enough of us does it sooner or later people at Visa or Mastercard will get pissed at ESPN and then things could start happening...

It sounds a bit odd but the people at your bank is very aware of what responsibilitys they got. I actually heard about one guy -- a guy who worked at a law firm I practisised at in the summer -- who returned a TV he bought online, to his bank, because it didn't work. In that case they did complain for a couple of minutes but then paid him over the desk, with the 50 inch standing in the bankoffice.

[dvanders]

The proof that it said 12 hours is in google's cache here: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...n&ct=clnk&cd=5
The "manager" lied (one of his many lies) and said that that was from last year... as you say I read that it was previously 48 hours. Also, if you scroll down that page you see mention of October 2008, proving that they DID update the FAQ for this year.

If the google cache expires I have a screenshot here: http://ks34629.kimsufi.com/espn360/espn360.12hours.jpg

Re the Visa questions: According to my account transactions at the espn360 site i did get the refund. But I'll wait for the Visa statement to make sure it gets refunded. If not I'll visit the bank.

At some point I'd like to highlight all of the amazing lies and ridiculous statements that this guy made, because I actually found it hilarious while I was chatting with him. I have also forwarded these chat logs to ESPN, so they see how their obviously outsourced support is behaving, and to the NHL directly, so they can see what it is like to be an NHL fan in Europe.

[Plato]

It's terrible that you were able to provide all that proof and they still wouldn't budge.

[dvanders]

One thing that doesn't translate well in the chat logs is how slow these jerks were at responding. Each of their answers took at least a minute, and when you see that I typed "hello?" a few times, I was literally waiting 5-10 minutes between responses. They were obviously trying to bore me into giving up, but I didn't mind because it's not really tiring to leave a window open and check it occasionally

Good luck to anyone else who tries to cancel. Be persistent, don't let them confuse you with unrelated comments (and FAQs from other companies), and never close the window!

[dvanders]

Originally Posted by Phinor

I personally feel like cancelling my subscription, but I did watch the live stream for a bit last night so according to that manager, I have no right to cancel although they changed the rules of the game after I subscribed. Maybe I, among others, just need to keep bugging them until they give us our money back or change their policy because clearly they could archive the games earlier if they wanted to.

I'd try anyways. The guy stated that he would have to "check the logs" to see if I downloaded anything, but then refunded me immediately after he talked himself into a corner. This makes me believe that there are no logs.

[cassius]

Manager: Is there anything else I may assist you with today?
Me: May I speak with your manager?
Manager: I am the manager.