Really? The change of 1 forward and possibly 1 or 2 defenseman in the 6-7 roles is going to make the Sharks so bad that they drop out of the playoffs entirely?
If that's all it takes, they don't deserve to be there anyway.
problem is: you have too many unknowns in that team.
and that D is pathetic.
problem is: you have too many unknowns in that team.
and that D is pathetic.
Outside of swapping McLaren for Joslin or MacDonald, that is the same D that has gotten us to the playoffs last year and this year. If anything, it's addition by subtraction (no Ozo, no Semenov).
As for other "unknowns", the only new roster players are Zalewski, and possibly Armstrong who would be a depth forward and hardly playing (unless he turns out to be a great pest). If Zalewski doesn't make the roster, there is Cavanaugh (who looked pretty good in his brief stint), the options of keeping Goc or Rissmiller, or the UFA depth forward route. How is that "full of unknowns"???
I would prefer if this thread didn't dissolve into a pissing competition.
Vassa brings up an approach we haven't seen in this thread, but it is one we have seen from SVSE. I don't see much point in having us repost the same names with different cap/ salary hits and in different positions. Whether someone likes my, Easy's, or Vassa's line-up best is IMO irrelevant. It just educates us all on the opportunities and allows us to think outside the box (good call on Stillman Easy). In addition, I feel it provides us an opportunity to be creative and try to get in Doug's head.
Der,
Wouldn't mind seeing your (almost certainly Cheecho-less) line-up.
51.5 and it is as close as I can get with a budget constrained lineup. It adds three rings to the group and a bit more grit. It picks up draft picks for Carle and Cheechoo. It also picks up two players who know transition offense.
Oh! Poor Roenick. It will be interesting going through an entire year for him with 0 even strength assists.
Outside of swapping McLaren for Joslin or MacDonald, that is the same D that has gotten us to the playoffs last year and this year. If anything, it's addition by subtraction (no Ozo, no Semenov).
As for other "unknowns", the only new roster players are Zalewski, and possibly Armstrong who would be a depth forward and hardly playing (unless he turns out to be a great pest). If Zalewski doesn't make the roster, there is Cavanaugh (who looked pretty good in his brief stint), the options of keeping Goc or Rissmiller, or the UFA depth forward route. How is that "full of unknowns"???
Three players who never played a game in NHL do qualify as unkowns especially since you slotted two of them on D, whish is the hardest position to adapt for transition from the minors. Not to mention that you are back to no capable, experienced puck mover. Then you have Plihal who had shown not much more than the fact that he can skate.
I like that fact that you prop the young guys so much but counting on them and expecting to deliver to the standards this team has set up in the past few years, is too much of a gamble for a team that is trying to improve on what they build since the lockout.
I would prefer if this thread didn't dissolve into a pissing competition.
Vassa brings up an approach we haven't seen in this thread, but it is one we have seen from SVSE. I don't see much point in having us repost the same names with different cap/ salary hits and in different positions. Whether someone likes my, Easy's, or Vassa's line-up best is IMO irrelevant. It just educates us all on the opportunities and allows us to think outside the box (good call on Stillman Easy). In addition, I feel it provides us an opportunity to be creative and try to get in Doug's head.
Der,
Wouldn't mind seeing your (almost certainly Cheecho-less) line-up.
will be coming soon after I figure out who to trade Marleau and Cheechoo for
I like that fact that you prop the young guys so much but counting on them and expecting to deliver to the standards this team has set up in the past few years, is too much of a gamble for a team that is trying to improve on what they build since the lockout.
I'm going to try and stick with Matt's intention here and avoid a pissing contest.. but I want to make what I feel is an important point. You won't EVER know how a player is going to do in the NHL unless you give them a chance to play there. And given the salary cap issues and DW's stated goal of "building from within" I think you need to assume that at least one new player makes the roster from the minors this year.
I don't count Plihal in that group since he "made" the roster last year out of camp but was kept out after being injured. But the fact that he was playing significant 2nd-line minutes over Rissmiller in at least one playoff game, and the fact that Rissmiller was very much RW's boy, I think it is a safe assumption to replace Riss with Plihal on the roster (and I will not be surprised if Riss ends up in Toronto this summer).
Exactly who makes the NHL roster is still very much up in the air, but I think you have to assume that at least one of Zalewski, Cavanaugh, Joslin, or Wishart is going to make the team. Given Kaspar's contract status, if he is re-signed, I would have to say there is a chance he will make the team as well. And I would have to say there is also a chance of someone like MacDonald, McGinn, McLaren (Frazer, not Kyle), Morris, or Zackrisson making the team. These players may be unproven at the NHL level, but so were Mitchell, Pavelski, Murray, Setoguchi, Clowe, Carle, and Vlasic, and yet all have made the NHL roster in the last 2 years.
So before you build your expected roster, carefully consider the Sharks recent history of bringing in young players into consideration.
Oh! Poor Roenick. It will be interesting going through an entire year for him with 0 even strength assists.
Just about, but I figure that no matter who, he will not produce as much next year. Plus I figure he will be getting 5min/game subbing on the upper lines, some of it PP.
I'm going to try and stick with Matt's intention here and avoid a pissing contest.. but I want to make what I feel is an important point. You won't EVER know how a player is going to do in the NHL unless you give them a chance to play there. And given the salary cap issues and DW's stated goal of "building from within" I think you need to assume that at least one new player makes the roster from the minors this year.
I don't count Plihal in that group since he "made" the roster last year out of camp but was kept out after being injured. But the fact that he was playing significant 2nd-line minutes over Rissmiller in at least one playoff game, and the fact that Rissmiller was very much RW's boy, I think it is a safe assumption to replace Riss with Plihal on the roster (and I will not be surprised if Riss ends up in Toronto this summer).
Exactly who makes the NHL roster is still very much up in the air, but I think you have to assume that at least one of Zalewski, Cavanaugh, Joslin, or Wishart is going to make the team. Given Kaspar's contract status, if he is re-signed, I would have to say there is a chance he will make the team as well. And I would have to say there is also a chance of someone like MacDonald, McGinn, McLaren (Frazer, not Kyle), Morris, or Zackrisson making the team. These players may be unproven at the NHL level, but so were Mitchell, Pavelski, Murray, Setoguchi, Clowe, Carle, and Vlasic, and yet all have made the NHL roster in the last 2 years.
So before you build your expected roster, carefully consider the Sharks recent history of bringing in young players into consideration.
You are correct that you never know how a player will play in the NHL until he is given a chance, but there are ways to have realistic expectations on a players impact on the team. So looking at your roster, you have made it clear why you didn't resign Campbell, but to not replace his skillset and/or McLaren's physical game and leadership is just begging for trouble. Do you expect Joslin to have a Vlasic like impact? Certainly I have not read anything that Joslin was just killing it in the AHL and no further seasoning in the AHL would be helpful. What happened to not rushing players into the NHL? All the positive press Detroit is getting, one of the main points they talk about it how Detroit lets a player fully develop before bringing them up.
Did you not listen/read about Ron Wilson's press conference? He basically said because of the Sharks very young and small defense, he instituted a system that protected/sheltered the defense. Maybe if we had a defense that didn't need protecting, we could play a system that actually takes advantage of our skilled forwards?
It's all about balance and your lineup is tipped too far in the "long shot for success" direction. The Canucks tried your method for offensive help last year and look where it got them.
I'm going to try and stick with Matt's intention here and avoid a pissing contest.. but I want to make what I feel is an important point. You won't EVER know how a player is going to do in the NHL unless you give them a chance to play there. And given the salary cap issues and DW's stated goal of "building from within" I think you need to assume that at least one new player makes the roster from the minors this year.
I don't count Plihal in that group since he "made" the roster last year out of camp but was kept out after being injured. But the fact that he was playing significant 2nd-line minutes over Rissmiller in at least one playoff game, and the fact that Rissmiller was very much RW's boy, I think it is a safe assumption to replace Riss with Plihal on the roster (and I will not be surprised if Riss ends up in Toronto this summer).
Exactly who makes the NHL roster is still very much up in the air, but I think you have to assume that at least one of Zalewski, Cavanaugh, Joslin, or Wishart is going to make the team. Given Kaspar's contract status, if he is re-signed, I would have to say there is a chance he will make the team as well. And I would have to say there is also a chance of someone like MacDonald, McGinn, McLaren (Frazer, not Kyle), Morris, or Zackrisson making the team. These players may be unproven at the NHL level, but so were Mitchell, Pavelski, Murray, Setoguchi, Clowe, Carle, and Vlasic, and yet all have made the NHL roster in the last 2 years.
So before you build your expected roster, carefully consider the Sharks recent history of bringing in young players into consideration.
I preffer to see this as a discussion not a wee wee contest.
The point that I am making is that your lineup , especially on D is too young and still inexperienced ( and that includes Vlasic , Murray and Carle). More experience is needed especially the playoff sort. You do not get that from young guys, and not having a top puck moving D-man has killed this team in the past and it will do it again . I do not like to assume that any of the young guys will step right in to effectively replace Carrot Top or even Kmac. WHile he might have been banged up he still has a ton of exp.
Sharks recent history of bringing in young players on D is not really that great. Outside Vlasic everybody else has struggled when brought in (Error, Carle). Murray's "improvement" is a little deceiving . Ron ( or to that effect Zettler) simplified his role and simplified the entire defensive strategy by going zone/containment with forwards collapsing and that means Murray has backup which effectively took of a lot of pressure from him. HE was easily beaten by skill and speed in the playoffs, hence his reduced time in the Dallas series.
I like to see young guys succeed but , especially D-men, I don't want to see them rushed in especially when trying to win a cup and when experience is missing pretty badly on that D
So my lineups ( you guys do the money part) would be
Milan Joe Hossa
Stillman Pavel Tamagouchi
Clowe Mitchell Nolan
Shelley JR Grier
insert your prospect here
Murray Carrot top
Commodore Error
Vlasic Rivet
insert your prospect here
( easy, I swear i didn't steal your ideas)
I preffer to see this as a discussion not a wee wee contest.
The point that I am making is that your lineup , especially on D is too young and still inexperienced ( and that includes Vlasic , Murray and Carle). More experience is needed especially the playoff sort. You do not get that from young guys, and not having a top puck moving D-man has killed this team in the past and it will do it again . I do not like to assume that any of the young guys will step right in to effectively replace Carrot Top or even Kmac. WHile he might have been banged up he still has a ton of exp.
Sharks recent history of bringing in young players on D is not really that great. Outside Vlasic everybody else has struggled when brought in (Error, Carle). Murray's "improvement" is a little deceiving . Ron ( or to that effect Zettler) simplified his role and simplified the entire defensive strategy by going zone/containment with forwards collapsing and that means Murray has backup which effectively took of a lot of pressure from him. HE was easily beaten by skill and speed in the playoffs, hence his reduced time in the Dallas series.
I like to see young guys succeed but , especially D-men, I don't want to see them rushed in especially when trying to win a cup and when experience is missing pretty badly on that D
So my lineups ( you guys do the money part) would be
Milan (4.33) Joe (7.2) Hossa (7)
Stillman (3) Pavel (2) Tamagouchi (1.247)
Clowe (1.5) Mitchell (.725) Nolan (2)
Shelley (.7) JR (1) Grier (1.775)
insert your prospect here (.5)
Murray (.6) Carrot top (6)
Commodore (3) Error (2.5)
Vlasic (1.1) Rivet (3.5)
insert your prospect here (.5)
( easy, I swear i didn't steal your ideas)
Vezina man (5.375)
LaBouche (.6)
how that work for ya?
56.2
And some of those signings are generous. Take out Commodore and put in Wishart or Vandemeer or someone under 2 million and you are closer, but I think Hossa needs 8 to come to SJ.
You are correct that you never know how a player will play in the NHL until he is given a chance, but there are ways to have realistic expectations on a players impact on the team. So looking at your roster, you have made it clear why you didn't resign Campbell, but to not replace his skillset and/or McLaren's physical game and leadership is just begging for trouble. Do you expect Joslin to have a Vlasic like impact? Certainly I have not read anything that Joslin was just killing it in the AHL and no further seasoning in the AHL would be helpful. What happened to not rushing players into the NHL? All the positive press Detroit is getting, one of the main points they talk about it how Detroit lets a player fully develop before bringing them up.
Did you not listen/read about Ron Wilson's press conference? He basically said because of the Sharks very young and small defense, he instituted a system that protected/sheltered the defense. Maybe if we had a defense that didn't need protecting, we could play a system that actually takes advantage of our skilled forwards?
It's all about balance and your lineup is tipped too far in the "long shot for success" direction. The Canucks tried your method for offensive help last year and look where it got them.
I don't "replace" Campbell, because I don't think he needs to be replaced. I did not think the Sharks should have gotten him in the first place. I feel Carle will provide at least some offense, and that Ehrhoff will continue to improve his game. Joslin is an "offensive" D-man, so if he makes the roster, he could provide some offense as well.
I would also point out that although I penciled Joslin and/or MacDonald in, I also clearly stated that they were "iffy" and could be replaced by a different player or a UFA if necessary.
As for McLaren, he didn't have any physical play this year to speak of, so replacing it is not necessary. Murray and Rivet both provide decent size, and if MacDonald makes the roster (remember, he's a graduated college senior, not some 19-year old coming from junior), he's 6'3, 200+, and I believe was team captain in his college hockey career. So he's not necessarily a step back either. Again, none of this is set, but there is no reason in my mind to ignore players in-house in favor of dumping half your roster for a bunch of "veterans" who aren't likely to be much of an improvement.
As for Canucks, if they hadn't lost most of their major defenseman for large chunks of the year, they would have been a much better team. But losing Bieksa, Salo, and Ohlund for big chunks of the year makes them a bad example. I would also point out that they did quite well playing a rookie named Edler for 75+ games this year. A guy who was an "unknown quantity".
In the end, it's all about opinions. You seem to think the Sharks need to load up on veterans, I think it's unnecessary and unlikely. Most of you think the Sharks are seriouis "contendors" who should only make moves you think will win the cup next year. I think they won't be legit cup contendors for at least another 2 or 3 years. So no biggee.. we just agree to disagree.
Because RFA compensation limits tie to player salaries, here are the estimated comp levels based on the average league salary which was published on TSN. Thanks kdb.
Quote:
An estimate for the RFA Compensation limits for next year:
Amount Compensation Due
$863,156 or less None
$863,156 - $1,307,811 3rd round pick
$1,307,881 - $2,615,623 2nd round pick
$2,615,623 - $3,923,434 1st and 3rd round pick
$3,923,434 - $5,231,246 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick
$5,231,246 - $6,539,061 Two 1st's, one 2nd, one 3rd round pick
$6,539,061 or more Four 1st round picks
And some of those signings are generous. Take out Commodore and put in Wishart or Vandemeer or someone under 2 million and you are closer, but I think Hossa needs 8 to come to SJ.
Word is Hossa is not exactly looking for top dollar this year but who knows what some GM's would offer him.
Wishart is not even close to being the "other" physical D-man.
I don't "replace" Campbell, because I don't think he needs to be replaced. I did not think the Sharks should have gotten him in the first place. I feel Carle will provide at least some offense, and that Ehrhoff will continue to improve his game. Joslin is an "offensive" D-man, so if he makes the roster, he could provide some offense as well.
I would also point out that although I penciled Joslin and/or MacDonald in, I also clearly stated that they were "iffy" and could be replaced by a different player or a UFA if necessary.
As for McLaren, he didn't have any physical play this year to speak of, so replacing it is not necessary. Murray and Rivet both provide decent size, and if MacDonald makes the roster (remember, he's a graduated college senior, not some 19-year old coming from junior), he's 6'3, 200+, and I believe was team captain in his college hockey career. So he's not necessarily a step back either. Again, none of this is set, but there is no reason in my mind to ignore players in-house in favor of dumping half your roster for a bunch of "veterans" who aren't likely to be much of an improvement.
As for Canucks, if they hadn't lost most of their major defenseman for large chunks of the year, they would have been a much better team. But losing Bieksa, Salo, and Ohlund for big chunks of the year makes them a bad example. I would also point out that they did quite well playing a rookie named Edler for 75+ games this year. A guy who was an "unknown quantity".
In the end, it's all about opinions. You seem to think the Sharks need to load up on veterans, I think it's unnecessary and unlikely. Most of you think the Sharks are seriouis "contendors" who should only make moves you think will win the cup next year. I think they won't be legit cup contendors for at least another 2 or 3 years. So no biggee.. we just agree to disagree.
neither is even close to Cambell's level of passing and skating the puck out or in the offensive zone.
Word is Hossa is not exactly looking for top dollar this year but who knows what some GM's would offer him.
Wishart is not even close to being the "other" physical D-man.
Just FYI, IB is now estimating that the cap will be around $55mil, not $56.3mil.
IMO, Hossa will get $8mil if he is waiting for the highest bidder. I cannot imagine that he will take less than $7mil, even for the most ideal circumstances.
IMO, We should use $55mil as an absolute top end for the thread with preference for $50mil.
PS, DK, I know you didn't steal. We came to the same conclusions separately and as expected, we disagree on Marleau. No problem. In terms of Stillman, I figure the Sharks had a better shot at him than Rolston because Ricci is in the front office.
MM JT Cheech
Patty Pavs Seto
Clowe Mitchell Grier
Plihal JR Laraque
Murray Soupy
Rivet Ehrhoff
Vlasic Joslin
Unfortunately I have no faith in the stiffs in the Sharks system, other than Joslin, Wishart, Pertrecki and a couple of the goalies. I don't believe that any of the forwards other than possibly Couture, barring, the concussions stop for a full season. It's already evident that Kaspar, Armstrong, Cavanaugh, Plihal, Iggulden and even Plihal for that matter are NHL depth floaters at best and most will be lucky to even hold a roster spot at that. I think we have exhausted the talented forwards in our system with our current roster and will need to target some legitimate talent soon or bring in a proven veteran for the time being.
We had better be careful not to waste the talents of JT and a few other proven veterans for too much longer with untalented players form a Woostah team that isn't exactly lighting it up!
Just FYI, IB is now estimating that the cap will be around $55mil, not $56.3mil.
IMO, Hossa will get $8mil if he is waiting for the highest bidder. I cannot imagine that he will take less than $7mil, even for the most ideal circumstances.
IMO, We should use $55mil as an absolute top end for the thread with preference for $50mil.
PS, DK, I know you didn't steal. We came to the same conclusions separately and as expected, we disagree on Marleau. No problem. In terms of Stillman, I figure the Sharks had a better shot at him than Rolston because Ricci is in the front office.
I actually wanted to keep Marleau but then I had to keep Cheechoo because there was no room for Hossa hehehe. And you know I never thought Cheechoo is the right man for that 1st line RW.
Word is Hossa is not exactly looking for top dollar this year but who knows what some GM's would offer him.
Wishart is not even close to being the "other" physical D-man.
Agree wholeheartedly. I was pointing out how to get under the cap, even if it was certainly not an ideal way to do so.
I don't "replace" Campbell, because I don't think he needs to be replaced. I did not think the Sharks should have gotten him in the first place. I feel Carle will provide at least some offense, and that Ehrhoff will continue to improve his game. Joslin is an "offensive" D-man, so if he makes the roster, he could provide some offense as well.
I would also point out that although I penciled Joslin and/or MacDonald in, I also clearly stated that they were "iffy" and could be replaced by a different player or a UFA if necessary.
As for McLaren, he didn't have any physical play this year to speak of, so replacing it is not necessary. Murray and Rivet both provide decent size, and if MacDonald makes the roster (remember, he's a graduated college senior, not some 19-year old coming from junior), he's 6'3, 200+, and I believe was team captain in his college hockey career. So he's not necessarily a step back either. Again, none of this is set, but there is no reason in my mind to ignore players in-house in favor of dumping half your roster for a bunch of "veterans" who aren't likely to be much of an improvement.
As for Canucks, if they hadn't lost most of their major defenseman for large chunks of the year, they would have been a much better team. But losing Bieksa, Salo, and Ohlund for big chunks of the year makes them a bad example. I would also point out that they did quite well playing a rookie named Edler for 75+ games this year. A guy who was an "unknown quantity".
In the end, it's all about opinions. You seem to think the Sharks need to load up on veterans, I think it's unnecessary and unlikely. Most of you think the Sharks are seriouis "contendors" who should only make moves you think will win the cup next year. I think they won't be legit cup contendors for at least another 2 or 3 years. So no biggee.. we just agree to disagree.
No comment on Carle, Ehrhoff, and Joslin replacing Campbell's contributions.
You seem to almost imply we kind of waste the next 2-3 years while our young team matures and whatever happens happens. I say why waste these next 2-3 years while Thornton is still here and Nabby is in his prime. We are already one of the youngest teams in the league, not sure why we need to get younger? Look at how many games went to overtime in the Dallas series. Who do you think is more likely to make a mistake in overtime?
Doug Wilson has to plan ahead of time whether Joslin and MacDonald can fill that #6 spot reliably. If he doesn't AND HE WANTS TO WIN in the playoffs, that is why we end up with deadline deals. Deadline deals are a great way to save money during the year, but they end up killing your bluechip prospect pipeline. A deadline player will never have that same level of chemistry/bonding that a year long player has.
What are you talking about when you say "dumping half your roster for a bunch of "veterans" who aren't likely to be much of an improvement"??? Matt Tricks' suggested roster (which I posted in this thread) signs all our key RFAs, only gets rid of Carle and McLaren (who is likely done anyways), fits the budget Doug Wilson talked about AND keeps us very competitive. Hell, he even had Joslin on there as the number 6 (I said I'd rather sign Hendican for cheap and Joslin can be called up from the AHL when injuries happen). How is that loading up on veterans??
Regarding physicality, I don't know about you, but I got very jealous of watching the defense of all the other teams in the playoffs exact a physical toll on the opposing team.
No comment on Carle, Ehrhoff, and Joslin replacing Campbell's contributions.
Again, I don't think Campbell has to be replaced. He a soft, defensively-mediocre, overpaid "offensive" defenseman who can skate well, pass decently, shoot all-righ, but who didn't help the power play all that much. I have never made any bones about the fact that I hold him in far less regard than many others on this board do. I think he is easily replacable. If Carle plays up to his rookie season form, he will be better than Campbell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HipCzech
You seem to almost imply we kind of waste the next 2-3 years while our young team matures and whatever happens happens. I say why waste these next 2-3 years while Thornton is still here and Nabby is in his prime. We are already one of the youngest teams in the league, not sure why we need to get younger? Look at how many games went to overtime in the Dallas series. Who do you think is more likely to make a mistake in overtime?
Waste? No. But we won't win the Cup either unless it's just a major amount of luck. Personally, I think spending the next 2-3 years building a quality roster of young players with decent NHL experience, and a couple more years of playoff experience is a great way to spend the next couple of years. If they do that, they set themselves up (in my opinion) to have a much greater chance to actually win the cup multiple times over the next 3-5 years after that. As for making mistakes in overtime, last year it was Marleau and Rivet, 2 "veterans". The fact is that in the Dallas multi-overtime game the best players were the young players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HipCzech
Doug Wilson has to plan ahead of time whether Joslin and MacDonald can fill that #6 spot reliably. If he doesn't AND HE WANTS TO WIN in the playoffs, that is why we end up with deadline deals. Deadline deals are a great way to save money during the year, but they end up killing your bluechip prospect pipeline. A deadline player will never have that same level of chemistry/bonding that a year long player has.
You don't need deadline deals to tweak your roster. You give the young guys a chance in camp and pre-season to see how they do and if they can earn a roster spot (which is what camp and the pre-season are for). If not, there will always be unsigned UFAs, or players on other teams who got passed by other players on the depth chart, who will be available fairly cheap or for an early to mid-season trade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HipCzech
What are you talking about when you say "dumping half your roster for a bunch of "veterans" who aren't likely to be much of an improvement"???
I was referring to this:
Milan Joe Hossa Stillman Pavel Tamagouchi
Clowe Mitchell Nolan
Shelley JR Grier
insert your prospect here
Murray Carrot top Commodore Error
Vlasic Rivet
insert your prospect here
( easy, I swear i didn't steal your ideas)
Vezina man
LaBouche
Players in bold above are new, and by deduction you are losing Cheechoo, Goc, Brown, Rissmiller, McLaren, Plihal, and Carle from the (semi)regular lineup. Plus Ozolinsh and Semenov. I would say changing over 11 players out of a 22-23 man roster counts as "half".
Quote:
Originally Posted by HipCzech
Regarding physicality, I don't know about you, but I got very jealous of watching the defense of all the other teams in the playoffs exact a physical toll on the opposing team.
Yes, because we all saw how Detroit's D-men physically dominated all of their opponents, right?? Outside of the 6'0, 189 lb Kronwall, they didn't have a single defenseman who played a "physical" game. I prefer smart defense to "physical" defense.
