- Belfour (gambled his back would hold up forever...so signed long term)
- Pohl (project)
- Devereaux (project / gambled he would return to form)
- Battaglia (hoped....something?)
- Woz (project...but wont give up on it)
- Khavanov (gambled he would be good?)
- Allison (gambled he would return to form)
- Lindros (gambled he would return to form)
- Blake (gambled it wasnt a fluke contract year)
- Raycroft (gambled he would return to rookie form)
- Perrault (gamble it would put us over the top to the playoffs)
Even Toskala was a situation where he hoped he would live up to hype and be a #1 vs. a backup
When has JFJ ever gone for a sure thing? Ever traded for a guy who was good already?
Last time I checked, all other GMs had the same cap restrictions and many of them don't even have the luxury of spending to the cap.
Funny you ignore the bad contracts he's thrown around over the past 3 years:
Lindros
Allison
O'Neill
Domi
Khavanov
never should have been signed.
Blake
Kubina
were bad signings.
Tucker
was a bad re-signing.
McCabe was questionable, and definitely bad for the NMC
Raycroft was given a long term deal before proving anything.
Look at what one GM said when JFJ was hired:
" "They're setting Ferguson up for failure," said one GM, who refused to be identified. "The team is on the decline, the organization has few prospects, and he'll be the guy taking the hit for it. You watch, it'll be a disaster." "
I have to point out the same thing over and over again to you. Leafs didn't have many young prospects when JFJ came in. They only had success by overspending on free agents. It doesn't take a genius to figure out a cap would hurt that type of team more.
You keep pointing out signings you didn't like when I already posted that:
-Sacrificing future and youth for immediate gain
-Making panic moves to save his job
-resigning players to more than they are worth because he's worried he'll miss out in the free agent market and his team will get worse
Let me spell it out: I'm saying the pressure and interference from JFJ "MIGHT" have affected his decision making. I'M NOT SURE.
You're saying MLSE didn't do anything. Bowman saying he wants autonomy means nothing. You know that JFJs decisions weren't affected at all by MLSE. That's why everyone in the media says the next GM will want autonomy?
Last time I checked, all other GMs had the same cap restrictions and many of them don't even have the luxury of spending to the cap.
Exactly. Capn is ignoring the reality of it, that every other GM has to work within the same rules.
Coming out of the lockout we weren't handicapped. If you want to reference Belfour's deal....JFJ knew a lockout was coming to get a hard cap, it's his own damn fault
And all his contracts given out post-lockout that were cap burdens are all on his head as well.
- Belfour (gambled his back would hold up forever...so signed long term)
- Pohl (project)
- Devereaux (project / gambled he would return to form)
- Battaglia (hoped....something?)
- Woz (project...but wont give up on it)
- Khavanov (gambled he would be good?)
- Allison (gambled he would return to form)
- Lindros (gambled he would return to form)
- Blake (gambled it wasnt a fluke contract year)
- Raycroft (gambled he would return to rookie form)
- Perrault (gamble it would put us over the top to the playoffs)
Even Toskala was a situation where he hoped he would live up to hype and be a #1 vs. a backup
When has JFJ ever gone for a sure thing? Ever traded for a guy who was good already?
Agreed.
He hasn't made one significant trade (Toskala could be considered one BUT because of what was given up more then what we've received in return) since he's been here to acquire that "already good" hockey player. Instead he used the UFA market and is now handcuffed with salaries for at least 2 seasons.
Exactly. Capn is ignoring the reality of it, that every other GM has to work within the same rules.
Coming out of the lockout we weren't handicapped. If you want to reference Belfour's deal....JFJ knew a lockout was coming to get a hard cap, it's his own damn fault
And all his contracts given out post-lockout that were cap burdens are all on his head as well.
So you're saying the Leafs were just as good as other teams in terms of prospects before JFJ was hired?
Look at what one GM said when JFJ was hired:
" "They're setting Ferguson up for failure," said one GM, who refused to be identified. "The team is on the decline, the organization has few prospects, and he'll be the guy taking the hit for it. You watch, it'll be a disaster." "
It's funny. How come you ignore the fact that JFJ shot himself in the foot repeatedly in regards to the future? If JFJ was on such thin ice, how come he's still here?
How can you take a GM who trades assets for a big gamble (Raycroft) seriously as a hockey man when he's giving away a top prospect? Why didn't he just sign a UFA to tide the team over? Do you seriously think Peddie was forcing his hand in this particular decision?
Do you think MLSE called down to JFJ's office and said 'trade picks for Yanic Perreault or you're fired?'
Quote:
Originally Posted by captn
I have to point out the same thing over and over again to you. Leafs didn't have many young prospects when JFJ came in. They only had success by overspending on free agents. It doesn't take a genius to figure out a cap would hurt that type of team more.
The Leafs had Steen, Stajan, Wellwood, White, Kronwall, Immonen, Coalaicovo, Pilar, Kondratiev, Tellqvist, Antropov, Ponikarovsky who were all 24 or under when JFJ came in in 2003 as prospects who carried some sort of value. Most of them are still on the team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captn
Let me spell it out: I'm saying the pressure and interference from JFJ "MIGHT" have affected his decision making. I'M NOT SURE.
Like any job, I'm sure the boss probably outlined some sort of agenda and had set particular goals. I'm sure MLSE told JFJ to get better on defense, get a good goalie and work on the forward group.
I don't think MLSE told JFJ to go after the guys he did, or the manner in which he was to get those guys.
I am sure they didn't threaten his job security if he failed to make the playoffs.
Why?
Because he still has a job after 2 seasons of missed playoffs and one season where we stand 28th overall in a 30 team league. If anything, MLSE is pretty patient with this guy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captn
You're saying MLSE didn't do anything. Bowman saying he wants autonomy means nothing. You know that JFJs decisions weren't affected at all by MLSE. That's why everyone in the media says the next GM will want autonomy?
No, I'm sure MLSE had input in JFJ's work, I'm just saying JFJ just executed poorly because he's a bad GM. No way do I think Peddie called down to JFJ and asked him to go after specific players, or to give guys specific contract terms.
The next guy probably just doesn't want to have to answer to Peddie all the time.
Yeah, like your posting that JFJ could have had Raycroft for a 2nd round pick but decided to trade Rask was reality..
That's just to illustrate how stupid the idea of Peddie interfering is. Do you think JFJ was pressured by management to make worse deals than he had on the table?
Quote:
Originally Posted by captn
Peddie has constantly stated that making the playoffs is a critical part of evaluating the GM.
Yet the GM who never makes the playoffs still has a ****ing job. Go figure.
So you're saying the Leafs were just as good as other teams in terms of prospects before JFJ was hired?
Go do some research before you start spouting out pedantic nonsense about the Leafs being so poor in prospects:
Antropov
Ponikarovsky
Steen
Stajan
Colaiacovo
White
Wellwood
Tellqvist
Kronwall
Immonen
Kondratiev
Pilar
Bell
Were all in the system when JFJ got here. All of those guys were 24 or under and considered prospects of one kind or another. Immonen and Kondratiev were good enough to be packaged for Brian Leetch.
The group wasn't amazing, but was a pretty solid group. No worse than most organizations can boast.
Add to the fact that a lot of those players currently make up the core of this team, and you know it wasn't bad.
Also, who did JFJ add to that group in his FIVE seasons since then that are close tot he NHL?
It's funny. How come you ignore the fact that JFJ shot himself in the foot repeatedly in regards to the future? If JFJ was on such thin ice, how come he's still here?.
I keep posting why JFJ would give up future for now. Like JFJ wasn't on thin ice before his last extension? Everyone calling him a lame duck in 06/07. Why didn't he get fired yet? He was at least close to the playoffs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
How can you take a GM who trades assets for a big gamble (Raycroft) seriously as a hockey man when he's giving away a top prospect? Why didn't he just sign a UFA to tide the team over? Do you seriously think Peddie was forcing his hand in this particular decision?
You're a broken record. I've pointed out why it's bad to be a lame duck and it directly applies to panic trades and giving away youth. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEMS OF A LAME DUCK?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
Do you think MLSE called down to JFJ's office and said 'trade picks for Yanic Perreault or you're fired?'
I think he was worried about making the playoffs so he traded for Perreault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
The Leafs had Steen, Stajan, Wellwood, White, Kronwall, Immonen, Coalaicovo, Pilar, Kondratiev, Tellqvist, Antropov, Ponikarovsky who were all 24 or under when JFJ came in in 2003 as prospects who carried some sort of value. Most of them are still on the team.
Are you joking? Are you trying to say the above players are great? I've already posted a quote from another GM saying they aren't good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
Like any job, I'm sure the boss probably outlined some sort of agenda and had set particular goals. I'm sure MLSE told JFJ to get better on defense, get a good goalie and work on the forward group.
I don't think MLSE told JFJ to go after the guys he did, or the manner in which he was to get those guys.
It's stupid to tell a chef to make excellent meals with crappy ingredients. Few prospects and expensive aging veterans were what he was given. And I do think it's possible MLSE told JFJ to re-sign Domi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
I am sure they didn't threaten his job security if he failed to make the playoffs.
Why?
Because he still has a job after 2 seasons of missed playoffs and one season where we stand 28th overall in a 30 team league. If anything, MLSE is pretty patient with this guy.
Peddie has said that making the playoffs while not the only point of consideration is a "critical" point in evaluating the GM.
JFJ is truely a moron if he didn't realize what he was getting himself into. It doesn't matter really if he was a lame duck, he agreed work like that so the blame is all his to take (hope they paid him enough)
Go do some research before you start spouting out pedantic nonsense about the Leafs being so poor in prospects:
Antropov
Ponikarovsky
Steen
Stajan
Colaiacovo
White
Wellwood
Tellqvist
Kronwall
Immonen
Kondratiev
Pilar
Bell
Were all in the system when JFJ got here. All of those guys were 24 or under and considered prospects of one kind or another. Immonen and Kondratiev were good enough to be packaged for Brian Leetch.
The group wasn't amazing, but was a pretty solid group. No worse than most organizations can boast.
Add to the fact that a lot of those players currently make up the core of this team, and you know it wasn't bad.
Also, who did JFJ add to that group in his FIVE seasons since then that are close tot he NHL?
Pogge
Kulemin
Stralman
Tlusty
That's a pretty sad track record.
Nice evaluation. Do you realize half those players are on this team? Guess what? they aren't doing so well. Most of the others aren't regular NHLers. It's laughable you suggest there was a great depth of prospects before JFJ.
I have a quote from a Steve Simmons where another GM says the Leafs lack prospects. There's articles and interviews everywhere where the media talk about the Leafs strategy of trading away youth before JFJ.
Nice evaluation. Do you realize half those players are on this team? Guess what? they aren't doing so well. Most of the others aren't regular NHLers. It's laughable you suggest there was a great depth of prospects before JFJ.
Most of those players are NHLers, and our troubles are not the result of these guys being minor leaguers. How many NHL worthy prospects do we have in the system now? How many GMs start off with a boatload of bluechip prospects?
I have a quote from a Steve Simmons where another GM says the Leafs lack prospects. There's articles and interviews everywhere where the media talk about the Leafs strategy of trading away youth before JFJ.
Big freaking deal. Here's another quote that challenges what you say.
"The Leafs scouts are no worse than average, maybe a bit better, a lot better than the worst clubs," a veteran scout for a Western Conference club said. "The idea that they're not out there or missing things — I'm at 200 games in a season and I see [Toronto scouts] at most of them."
"[The Leafs scouts] compare pretty favourably with most clubs," said a scouting director, who recently put together an evaluation of NHL draft records going back to 2000. "They've had a couple of bad misses in there but so does everybody. The draft and the scouts aren't what's hurting the team. The problem is that the Leafs' management has traded away high picks — the scouts haven't had much to work with."
"The Leafs scouts are no worse than average, maybe a bit better, a lot better than the worst clubs," a veteran scout for a Western Conference club said. "The idea that they're not out there or missing things — I'm at 200 games in a season and I see [Toronto scouts] at most of them."
"[The Leafs scouts] compare pretty favourably with most clubs," said a scouting director, who recently put together an evaluation of NHL draft records going back to 2000. "They've had a couple of bad misses in there but so does everybody. The draft and the scouts aren't what's hurting the team. The problem is that the Leafs' management has traded away high picks — the scouts haven't had much to work with."
Thanks for proving me right. That's exactly what's often said of the Leafs before JFJ.
As for your other post, why do you keep listing a bunch of 3rd/4th line players and fringe defencemen and then try to convince people that their great prospects. Most of them are still on this team. This team isn't that good.
I keep posting why JFJ would give up future for now. Like JFJ wasn't on thin ice before his last extension? Everyone calling him a lame duck in 06/07. Why didn't he get fired yet? He was at least close to the playoffs.
I read what you wrote the first 10 times you posted it. JFJ's job has been remarkably secure for the piss poor job he's done. You do realize he's Peddie's man right? Being Peddie's GM kind of gives him a bit of job security, as his employment to this point attests to.
Notice how GMs like Doug Armstrong are fired for not going far enough in the playoffs? Notice how our GM misses the playoffs twice and all the boss does in the offseason is look for a 'mentor'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by captn
You're a broken record. I've pointed out why it's bad to be a lame duck and it directly applies to panic trades and giving away youth. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEMS OF A LAME DUCK?
I'm telling you you're wrong. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHEN I TELL YOU JFJ's PROBLEMS ARE SELF INFLICTED?
YOU CAN BE A YES MAN AND STILL DO A PROPER JOB
Your boss tells you to get a number one goalie. IT DIDN'T HAVE TO BE ANDREW RAYCROFT.
Your boss tells you to get a defenseman. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE PAVEL KUBINA
Your boss tells you to get a winger for Mats. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE JASON BLAKE FOR FIVE YEARS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captn
I think he was worried about making the playoffs so he traded for Perreault.
Obviously. BUT HE DIDN'T HAVE TO TRADE FOR YANIC PERREAULT.
And he missed the playoffs anyway. And he still has a job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captn
Are you joking? Are you trying to say the above players are great? I've already posted a quote from another GM saying they aren't good.
Here's a quote that says they're average to above average. Who's right? Oh no, conflicting opinions! Do you understand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by captn
It's stupid to tell a chef to make excellent meals with crappy ingredients. Few prospects and expensive aging veterans were what he was given. And I do think it's possible MLSE told JFJ to re-sign Domi.
Wrong analogy.
More like 'Fergie, here's a $100, make me a delicious steak dinner,' then Fergie goes out and pays the butcher $100 for ground beef.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captn
Peddie has said that making the playoffs while not the only point of consideration is a "critical" point in evaluating the GM.
Thanks for proving me right. That's exactly what's often said of the Leafs before JFJ.
As for your other post, why do you keep listing a bunch of 3rd/4th line players and fringe defencemen and then try to convince people that their great prospects. Most of them are still on this team. This team isn't that good.
"[The Leafs scouts] compare pretty favourably with most clubs," said a scouting director, who recently put together an evaluation of NHL draft records going back to 2000. "They've had a couple of bad misses in there but so does everybody. The draft and the scouts aren't what's hurting the team. The problem is that the Leafs' management has traded away high picks — the scouts haven't had much to work with."
Quote:
Originally Posted by captn
I have a quote from a Steve Simmons where another GM says the Leafs lack prospects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
The group wasn't amazing, but was a pretty solid group. No worse than most organizations can boast.
"The Leafs and our fans have very high expectations," said Peddie. "That's one of the ways we judge our general manager and our coaches -- whether we get into the playoffs and contend for the Stanley Cup - but it's not the only consideration.
"There can be injuries and you sit down and weigh a lot of things. It's not as simple as making the playoffs, but that's a pretty critical one."
I'm sure you'll brush that one off and say Peddie is just joking, blah blah.
Why do you keep mentioning the Globe and Mail article? It's a 2007 article saying JFJ's scouts are good.
You're just arrogant and sad. You're pretending to be smart and have inside knowledge and you "know for sure JFJ did everything without being influenced by MLSE".
Yeah, that's why Bowman stipulated that he wouldn't take the job unless he had autonomy. Because MLSE doesn't bother JFJ at all. You've figured it out.
"[The Leafs scouts] compare pretty favourably with most clubs," said a scouting director, who recently put together an evaluation of NHL draft records going back to 2000. "They've had a couple of bad misses in there but so does everybody. The draft and the scouts aren't what's hurting the team. The problem is that the Leafs' management has traded away high picks — the scouts haven't had much to work with."
Actually, I proved you wrong.
I'm tired of ripping apart your lame arguments. Your quote supports what I said:
"The problem is that the Leafs' management has traded away high picks "
"The Leafs and our fans have very high expectations," said Peddie. "That's one of the ways we judge our general manager and our coaches -- whether we get into the playoffs and contend for the Stanley Cup - but it's not the only consideration.
"There can be injuries and you sit down and weigh a lot of things. It's not as simple as making the playoffs, but that's a pretty critical one."
I'm sure you'll brush that one off and say Peddie is just joking, blah blah.
Why do you keep mentioning the Globe and Mail article? It's a 2007 article saying JFJ's scouts are good.
You're just arrogant and sad. You're pretending to be smart and have inside knowledge and you "know for sure JFJ did everything without being influenced by MLSE".
Yeah, that's why Bowman stipulated that he wouldn't take the job unless he had autonomy. Because MLSE doesn't bother JFJ at all. You've figured it out.
What's the date of this article?
Why do you always use Peddie's quotes as examples of anything? Why do you keep talking about Steve Simmons and that random quote from other GMs?
Maybe Bowman doesn't want to come here because he doesn't want to work with Peddie?
Yeah Ferguson has his mandate, but he's bad at his job, and I don't know what's wrong with you for not seeing it.
If your boss told you to do something and he's difficult to work with, and you messed it up, is it his fault you suck at your job?
I'm tired of ripping apart your lame arguments. Your quote supports what I said:
"The problem is that the Leafs' management has traded away high picks "
Don't join the debate club.
I know they traded away picks. And I blame Ferguson.
Fact is he hasn't been allowed to do his job. Do you stand around picking your ear when all the reporters say a new GM wants autonomy? What do you think that means? Did you know that Scotty Bowman mentioned autonomy this weekend? Probably, then you decided to ignore the facts.
Your fooling yourself if you think EVERY SINGLE transaction Fergy made in the last 5 years had Peddie's hand in it. MAYBE a few signings did but 95% of the rest of the transactions were all Fergy.
If you want to keep drinking Fergy juice go right ahead. Here.
Your fooling yourself if you think EVERY SINGLE transaction Fergy made in the last 5 years had Peddie's hand in it. MAYBE a few signings did but 95% of the rest of the transactions were all Fergy.
If you want to keep drinking Fergy juice go right ahead. Here.
But Steve Simmons never wrote about the existence of any Fergie juice...
No one can say for sure because not a single person on here knows in which way Ferguson may have been influenced over the last few years. News recently is starting to show that it is a great possibility that he has been influenced greatly by possibly Richard Peddie.
Ferguson was put in a situation totally different from any other Leaf GM ever, so that post about him being the worst ever is invalid. That situation would be the salary cap, one of the biggest gripes of Ferguson is his misspending, if this was any other time we wouldnt blink an eye to signing Kubina to 5mil a year, cause it didnt matter.
Also the cupboard was bare, so he was forced to build his team through free agency and trades. Not exactly the best possibly scenario.
I believe he has been between average and poor in his performance, but hasnt sucked copious amounts of ass like some people say. Its too bad cause he seems like a nice guy, he will land on his feet and be back in the NHL in some capacity, no doubt.
