Did BG built the wrong team or get the wrong coach?
I dont know what to make of this year so far.
I'm not going to sit here and blame the teams performance on Markov being injured.
Martin is a good coach and it's a good coaching staff.
This team is a good team. Most of Gaineys acquisitions have been paying off. Gill was actually getting better and should get better when his minutes are limited with markovs return.
Spacek has been the most disappointing to me but again he should improve when he falls back to a #3-4 role.
This being said i just dont think the players we have on this team work with the system martin wants to implement.
This is a pretty bastardized team i find.
We're part speedy, part grind and the defense is just a potpouri (or just pouri) of anything that was available. MAB should not have been signed or playing as he was brought in to help the pp and he hasent. I'd much rather have Weber making these mistakes and learning than having MAB.
sigh...this season so hard cause we have good players and we have a good coach just nothings meshing
It's not JUST Markov's injury, but having Gill and O'byrne also out hurts. The fact that Weber, Belle and Carle have struggled in their callups doesn't help either. You can't play with 4 D or they wear down and start making mistakes too after a couple games.
It's not JUST Markov's injury, but having Gill and O'byrne also out hurts. The fact that Weber, Belle and Carle have struggled in their callups doesn't help either. You can't play with 4 D or they wear down and start making mistakes too after a couple games.
Gill's been out on game only.
Carle has had 1...1 Nhl game.
Weber was not used right.
and Belle is meh.
But still look around the NHL. Teams would rather give icetime to their rookies so they can learn from mistakes instead of going to get vets noone wanted who make even more mistakes.
Honestly you think Weber would not improve? He got what 4 games?
Did you expect this team to be a contender honestly?
This is not a "told you so" post, but Montreal's performance is right around where I expected it to be - a bubble playoff team. Not sure what others here were expecting.
Give it time and hopefully we will improve somewhat. Right now do not go into a road game against a tough opponent thinking that we're a favourite.
Did you expect this team to be a contender honestly?
This is not a "told you so" post, but Montreal's performance is right around where I expected it to be - a bubble playoff team. Not sure what others here were expecting.
Give it time and hopefully we will improve somewhat. Right now do not go into a road game against a tough opponent thinking that we're a favourite.
i did not expect us to be a cup contender not even a divisional championship contender. Just expected us to be a tougher opponent atleast.
Look at all their stats and you will see how an average team they are. We won't really be able to judge the real value of this team before X-Mas, or even not before Markov's return in the line up.
Some younger guys - A.K, Lats, Price - have to pick up some slack...and soon !
I dont know what to make of this year so far.
I'm not going to sit here and blame the teams performance on Markov being injured.
Martin is a good coach and it's a good coaching staff.
This team is a good team. Most of Gaineys acquisitions have been paying off. Gill was actually getting better and should get better when his minutes are limited with markovs return.
Spacek has been the most disappointing to me but again he should improve when he falls back to a #3-4 role.
This being said i just dont think the players we have on this team work with the system martin wants to implement.
This is a pretty bastardized team i find.
We're part speedy, part grind and the defense is just a potpouri (or just pouri) of anything that was available. MAB should not have been signed or playing as he was brought in to help the pp and he hasent. I'd much rather have Weber making these mistakes and learning than having MAB.
sigh...this season so hard cause we have good players and we have a good coach just nothings meshing
I think that this is a thoughtful post, and it deserves thoughtful replies.
Everything I am about to write could be wrong, and fellow posters please feel free to disagree.
It appears to me that something has changed the last twenty, especially the last five, years in the NHL. It is this: I have never seen such young players achieve immediate success as they do now.
To give you context, the Habs are in my blood; the first live match I saw was at the Forum against the Blues in 71. There were many others after that. And do you know, we watched Guy Lafleur in frustration those first three years he played. But we gave him time, as he was just a kid and he needed time to adapt to the NHL.
Today, I find the Penguins to be the ultimate example of the new NHL. Perhaps it is just jealousy, but it irks me that a 22 year old boy like Crosby can develop into a cup winning captain so quickly.
So, in answer to your thoughtful post on why the Habs are not successful: I think that the NHL has become cynical. I think the road to success now is to tank, and tank often, until you pick up three or four young stars. Surround these boys with men, tough and skilled veteran free agents, get a solid goalie, and you're almost there.
If you are confused by the Habs, as I am, I think it might be that we have not joined this cynical club yet.
This leaves one question however: Why is someone as young as Crosby able to succeed so quickly now?
My answer is that Wayne Gretzky changed everything. For the first time in my experience, with Gretz, NHL players had to treat a fellow player with deference not deserved or earned. You were not allowed to hit Gretzky with full violence, as he was the first player ever used as a marketing tool by the NHL.
Did you know that Bobby Orr was very often hit very hard his first three years in the league? Sometimes, often, brutally, with intent to injure. Did you know that Gordie Howe himself elbowed Orr in the head, with the intent to injure and subdue him? Howe did. Orr had to earn his way, like Lafleur, like Howe himself did. There was no deference or marketing plan for Orr.
Does this mean NHL hockey today is worse? No, I think not. I think it is better and faster now than ever. Who would like to see Ovie permanently injured by some thug?
What it might also mean however is that development, patience and maturity no longer matter, and marketable young stars obtained by finishing last are what matters.
Perhaps this provides some answer to your, and my, confusion with the Habs!
Cheers,
BSL
Last edited by bsl: 11-04-2009 at 10:32 AM.
Reason: Spelling
I don't think Gainey built the wrong team or picked the wrong coach. I think he made a fatal flaw in picking a fanbase that was knowledgable in hockey and realistic in their support. Jesus, this board is sounding more and more like the Leafs board.
We are missing HALF our defence and our best player, what did you people expect was going to happen? The fact we're a .500 hockey club without Markov and the plug ins we have on defence (MAB, I'm looking at you, Gill get's a pass due to the fact he's been polaying hurt) is more than I expected them to do. Remember when Markov went down, all those "draft Tyler Hall" threads that opened up??
We were a mid pack to bubble team to start off with but some "fans" lofty expectations are making it seem as if the Habs were the Redwings or the Pens in a slump! Even those teams sucked hard when Gonchar and Lidstrom were out for extended periods of time. So let's relax a little and remember that this is a new team, new system and have a lot of players down and some others not playing well, none of which are the new players Gainey went out and got this past off season. Let's just root on our team and try to keep it positive for once and support them rather then bashing them after every loss and thinking we're a cup team after every win.
I don't think Gainey built the wrong team or picked the wrong coach. I think he made a fatal flaw in picking a fanbase that was knowledgable in hockey and realistic in their support. Jesus, this board is sounding more and more like the Leafs board.
We are missing HALF our defence and our best player, what did you people expect was going to happen? The fact we're a .500 hockey club without Markov and the plug ins we have on defence (MAB, I'm looking at you, Gill get's a pass due to the fact he's been polaying hurt) is more than I expected them to do. Remember when Markov went down, all those "draft Tyler Hall" threads that opened up??
We were a mid pack to bubble team to start off with but some "fans" lofty expectations are making it seem as if the Habs were the Redwings or the Pens in a slump! Even those teams sucked hard when Gonchar and Lidstrom were out for extended periods of time. So let's relax a little and remember that this is a new team, new system and have a lot of players down and some others not playing well, none of which are the new players Gainey went out and got this past off season. Let's just root on our team and try to keep it positive for once and support them rather then bashing them after every loss and thinking we're a cup team after every win.
its been 500 years that he's the gm but we cant blame him for having a "mid pack" team. yup.
The only problem with this team is that we overrated our prospects.
Gainey's acquistions, i.e. the first line, are doing very well, we can't expect them to score more than 3 goals a game.
The defense, if it wasn't for the injuries, would also be doing well. If Markov and O'Byrne didn't get hurt, Bergeron would never have had to be brought in. Mara is doing very well and Gill has been hampered by injuries.
The goalies have been doing ok considering their age/experience. Sure Price has been losing a lot, and some of it is his fault, but at the same time it's not as if he's the sole reason for the losses. The expectations on the guy are crazy, he's a young goalie yet he's expected to be a game-breaker.
The problem with this team is simply that we overrated Andrei Kostitsyn, Guillaume Latendresse, Max Pacioretty, Matt D'Agostini, Kyle Chipchura, Gregory Stewart, Yannick Weber and Carey Price. This has translated into a lack of depth at every position because the team believed taht these guys could be counted on, when they have in fact been complete non-factors.
All of these guys have been outscored by Paul Mara and Travis Moen for crying out loud, the player with the most points is Kostitsyn with 4. Glen Metropolit looks like an all-star compared to guys that are supposed to be much more talented (or at least that were counted on to contribute more than him). Defensive forward Chipchura is a team worst -8, and tough guy Gregory Stewart has often looked lost on the ice and only has 1 fight. Meanwhile, Weber has been surpassed by the likes of Shawn Belle and Marc-Andre Bergeron, and Price has lost his starting job to Jaroslav Halak.
The team was built expecting these young guys to contribute. They aren't. Thus, we are having problems winning games. It's as simple as that.
Last edited by La Grosse Tendresse: 11-04-2009 at 10:50 AM.
Gainey did what he has always done in Montreal: follow a good/brilliant move with a bone head move.
His brilliant moves: hired J.M. signed Cammalleri.
Bonehead move: Traded for Gomez.
Questionable moves: Signed Gionta to a what 5 mil contract. With Cam & Gomez & Plekanec (and Metropolit may I add) you don't go out & add another dwarf.
I know it didn't happen in that order but he should have had a plan going into July 1. You can't argue that things changed when Kovy & Komi backed away from his offers because that was still Gainey's bone head policy of not negotiating before or during the last year in a player's contract.
So in a longwinded way I answered your question. Gainey & his staff of romper room rejects assembled the wrong team.
Many analysts and some posters on this site pointed this out during the summer but you refused to listen. Now you want to blame injuries or (I gotta laugh at this one) Martin's coaching. Jacques is a world class coach on par with Lemaire, Hitchock & Detroit's coach.
The only problem with this team is that we overrated our prospects.
Gainey's acquistions, i.e. the first line, are doing very well, we can't expect them to score more than 3 goals a game.
The defense, if it wasn't for the injuries, would also be doing well. If Markov and O'Byrne didn't get hurt, Bergeron would never have had to be brought in. Mara is doing very well and Gill has been hampered by injuries.
The goalies have been doing ok considering their age/experience. Sure Price has been losing a lot, and some of it is his fault, but at the same time it's not as if he's the sole reason for the losses. The expectations on the guy are crazy, he's a young goalie yet he's expected to be a game-breaker.
The problem with this team is simply that we overrated Andrei Kostitsyn, Guillaume Latendresse, Max Pacioretty, Matt D'Agostini, Kyle Chipchura, Gregory Stewart, Yannick Weber and Carey Price. This has translated into a lack of depth at every position because the team believed taht these guys could be counted on, when they have in fact been complete non-factors.
All of these guys have been outscored by Paul Mara and Travis Moen for crying out loud, the player with the most points is Kostitsyn with 4. Glen Metropolit looks like an all-star compared to guys that are supposed to be much more talented (or at least that were counted on to contribute more than him). Defensive forward Chipchura is a team worst -8, and tough guy Gregory Stewart has often looked lost on the ice and only has 1 fight. Meanwhile, Weber has been surpassed by the likes of Shawn Belle and Marc-Andre Bergeron, and Price has lost his starting job to Jaroslav Halak.
The team was built expecting these young guys to contribute. They aren't. Thus, we are having problems winning games. It's as simple as that.
habs have a lot of mid level to potentially good players. they are over raqted on this board. Habs should be packaging these guys up with existing players to boost the current line up. I'm tired of the " he's still young and developing excuse" when the players has been a regular for 3 + years now ( see lats and kosti ). get rid of them and either get a real young stud, or get a good regular.
you can't keep them all.
keep d'ago, max pac, and PK. trade the rest off and cut the losses. there are plenty of 3rd and 4th liners in the nhl that can replace chips', belles, stewarts.
IF Lats, Price, Halak, Dags, O'byrne, Pacs, Kost 1 and 2 blossom this would be a much much better team. Hopefully they will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadienErrant
Look at all their stats and you will see how an average team they are. We won't really be able to judge the real value of this team before X-Mas, or even not before Markov's return in the line up.
Some younger guys - A.K, Lats, Price - have to pick up some slack...and soon !
The problem is that they may develop further. If they continue to develop and play within a system the team will do ok.
Quote:
Originally Posted by La Grosse Tendresse
The only problem with this team is that we overrated our prospects.
Gainey's acquistions, i.e. the first line, are doing very well, we can't expect them to score more than 3 goals a game.
The defense, if it wasn't for the injuries, would also be doing well. If Markov and O'Byrne didn't get hurt, Bergeron would never have had to be brought in. Mara is doing very well and Gill has been hampered by injuries.
The goalies have been doing ok considering their age/experience. Sure Price has been losing a lot, and some of it is his fault, but at the same time it's not as if he's the sole reason for the losses. The expectations on the guy are crazy, he's a young goalie yet he's expected to be a game-breaker.
The problem with this team is simply that we overrated Andrei Kostitsyn, Guillaume Latendresse, Max Pacioretty, Matt D'Agostini, Kyle Chipchura, Gregory Stewart, Yannick Weber and Carey Price. This has translated into a lack of depth at every position because the team believed taht these guys could be counted on, when they have in fact been complete non-factors.
All of these guys have been outscored by Paul Mara and Travis Moen for crying out loud, the player with the most points is Kostitsyn with 4. Glen Metropolit looks like an all-star compared to guys that are supposed to be much more talented (or at least that were counted on to contribute more than him). Defensive forward Chipchura is a team worst -8, and tough guy Gregory Stewart has often looked lost on the ice and only has 1 fight. Meanwhile, Weber has been surpassed by the likes of Shawn Belle and Marc-Andre Bergeron, and Price has lost his starting job to Jaroslav Halak.
The team was built expecting these young guys to contribute. They aren't. Thus, we are having problems winning games. It's as simple as that.
its been 500 years that he's the gm but we cant blame him for having a "mid pack" team. yup.
Yes, he's been a GM for 500 hundred years.
We did finish 1st in the East 2 years ago, were 2nd best team in hockey up until Christmas last year and when the team imploded he had the sack to completely overhaul the team. In doing so, every player he's brought in with exception of Pleks (who he resigned for what everyone thought was too much money) has performed better then the players they were brought in to replace. Now with a new coach, new system and missing our best player along with half our defence we're a .500 hockey club to start the year and it's Gainey's fault because he's a terribel GM?? He's done a spectacular job and better then most around the league given what he's been dealt. Very few GM's are better then he is, so if people want to replace him, who with?? Benoit Brunet? Good ****ing luck with that!
I dont know what to make of this year so far.
I'm not going to sit here and blame the teams performance on Markov being injured.
Martin is a good coach and it's a good coaching staff.
This team is a good team. Most of Gaineys acquisitions have been paying off. Gill was actually getting better and should get better when his minutes are limited with markovs return.
Spacek has been the most disappointing to me but again he should improve when he falls back to a #3-4 role.
This being said i just dont think the players we have on this team work with the system martin wants to implement.
This is a pretty bastardized team i find.
We're part speedy, part grind and the defense is just a potpouri (or just pouri) of anything that was available. MAB should not have been signed or playing as he was brought in to help the pp and he hasent. I'd much rather have Weber making these mistakes and learning than having MAB.
sigh...this season so hard cause we have good players and we have a good coach just nothings meshing
I don't think we have the wrong players nor the wrong coach for them.
From what Martin told the press before the season, Gainey and himself agreed on every player they went after.
Gomez and Gionta, played in NJ under the omnipresent defensive system. (10pts each so far)
Cammalleri had a career year under Keenan's D system. (14pts so far)
The big three players we went after are performing. Mara has been decent. Spacek and Gill you can say are disappointing a bit, but the latter one we just learned was playing injured.
Markov's presence is key to us. Not only because he's just that good. But because his loss meant more ice time for Spacek on his off wing. Also more ice time to Gill that shouldn't get more than 16 minutes.
Spacek is struggling quite a bit on the right side, the defensive pairings should be changed. Hamrlik and Spacek are our two best, they should be on the left side, one with Gorges, one with Mara.
Put MAB and whoever else as 5th and 6th Ds with limited IceTime.
Desperate Ice Time calls for desperate measures. Cutting down the ice time of the 5th and 6th D is a necessity.
But the fact we're able to keep a .500 record so far has been impressive to be honest. Especially when we barely have a decent top4 D group. Couldn't win one single game without Markov last year.
O'Byrne's return will do us some good. As long as he plays the same way before his injury. Once Markov comes back, we'll possibly become a cinderella story and make a strong push to make the POs.
We're struggling because half our D is either playing too much, not good enough, or not at its rightful place. This will change once O'Byrne and Markov are back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingbobert
i did not expect us to be a cup contender not even a divisional championship contender. Just expected us to be a tougher opponent atleast.
Outside the two games we lost 6-1 and 7-1, all games have been a 1Goal difference. (Lost by 2 in Ottawa, it wasn't an EN, but there was about a minute left and all our players were rushing up..so I still view it as a 1G tight game).
I'm surprised at how close the games are actually.
Claiming the division is still a possibility. Don't think Buffalo will last long there, but I thought the same of the Bruins last year so we'll have to see.
A positive way to look at it though is that we know we can beat the Sabres.
I was skeptical of the martin signing but I have to give him credit. He's alot more versatile than I gave him credit for. He is not a one dimensional coach like I perceived. He looked at this roster and determined what style best suited this team rather than just using what he is comfortable with. He recognized that the 1-2-2 is not the way to go in the post lockout and its these types of adjustments that keeps coaches around for a long time in this league.
Unfortunately, he hasn't been dealt with a great hand this season especially on the backend. I think he's getting quite a bit out of this team, but you can only go so far when you lose your mvp for half a season and lose your best player out of training camp for 8 weeks. He can preach hard work, change the culture, and go through the x's and o's, but at the end of the day, the coach is as good as the players available to him, and that's the problem right now.
I have criticized Gainey for some moves in the past, but I think he is going to prove me wrong about Martin.
it's Gainey's fault. he built a team full of injury prone players.
seriously, a team can line up 6 defenseman a game while there's 12 forwards that splits ice time. No team can take a hit like this on their defensive corp and not be affected by it.
for example, Markov is part of 25-30 minutes of the habs' game plan.. loosing him for so long can only hurt the team.
I can't stress that enough, defense is the most important position in a hockey team in my mind. yes, they prevent scoring chances, but really there is close to no offense without them. Most offensive play start in our own zone, these guys take the puck from our opponents and they give it back to our forwards.
don't expect any team playing for .500 with that huge of a hit on their defensive corp. now we should just be happy that we had somewhat of an exciting season debut.
