OT: Philosophy on the Difference between the Blues and Cards
I'm a big baseball fan and a big hockey fan, but I'm looking forward to the Blues home opener tomorrow more than the NLDS game 2.
The Blues look like they're energetic, and a force to be reckoned with. They look like they're trying, and you can always expect 100% effort.
The Cardinals look lethargic, lazy, apathetic, and like they've given up. They lost 5-3, but it felt like 10-3 for most of the game tonight.
The Blues seem to expect to win. The Cardinals seem to expect to lose.
With the Blues, down by 2 goals, I have some hope that we'll snap out of it and tie the game and hopefully win.
With the Cardinals, down by 2 runs, it feels like the game is already over. Sure, they can get guys on base. Then they leave them there.
Maybe the first NLDS game soured me, but the Cardinals have been difficult to watch for 2 weeks.
Overall, I think the Blues players are more likable anyway. I think for a lot of Blues fans, the team is like family almost. Sure, you don't know them, but you've grown with them. They seem like the kind of guy that would say hi to you on the street. They seem approachable, and they seem to enjoy meeting fans.
But this city seems to worship the Cardinals and put them on a pedestal. I think it's a different kind of relationship. The Blues are like your best friend and neighbor. The Cardinals are like the person you admire, but can never really get to know. I think most of the Cardinals players are good guys and likable, but they seem more inaccessible than the Blues.
I'm not sure how to describe it. It just seems like the Blues are easier to like and easier to root for, because they care if they win or not and they seem to care if the fans are happy or not.
Just my $.02 on what I've observed. I also think the 2006 Cardinals, though they were not as talented, had more spirit than the 2009 Cardinals do right now.
Do you notice a difference in the way St. Louis treats the Blues and Cardinals?
I'm sure there's another pro-poker tournament coming up eventually
If not there's at least Church Bingo Nights somewhere.
But yeah, I hear you in regards to the Cardinals. It's no real secret if yo know me though that I don't like the Cardinals. I'd imagine that the players are mostly decent people, but I don't like the organization and management (I've posted all of this here before I think).
I feel like the Cardinals are considered sacred in St. Louis, and this gives themt he ability to take liberties that the other franchises in the city can't. Either way, I told understand where the OP is coming from in this thread.
If not there's at least Church Bingo Nights somewhere.
But yeah, I hear you in regards to the Cardinals. It's no real secret if yo know me though that I don't like the Cardinals. I'd imagine that the players are mostly decent people, but I don't like the organization and management (I've posted all of this here before I think).
I feel like the Cardinals are considered sacred in St. Louis, and this gives themt he ability to take liberties that the other franchises in the city can't. Either way, I told understand where the OP is coming from in this thread.
What everyone is forgetting is that there is a reason the Cardinals get this amount of respect. They have 10 world championships. That means they average almost one world championship for every decade in their existence. I am not saying that they are above criticism, but for all of their failings, they are still the benchmark of success in this city.
If not there's at least Church Bingo Nights somewhere.
But yeah, I hear you in regards to the Cardinals. It's no real secret if yo know me though that I don't like the Cardinals. I'd imagine that the players are mostly decent people, but I don't like the organization and management (I've posted all of this here before I think).
I feel like the Cardinals are considered sacred in St. Louis, and this gives themt he ability to take liberties that the other franchises in the city can't. Either way, I told understand where the OP is coming from in this thread.
How often have you dealt with their front office? Sure the baseball decision guys haven't made themselves as accessible as the Blues hockey decisions guys (But then they weren't accessible either until Checketts and JD came around), but the rest of the front office bends over backwards for the fans.
I was lucky enough to work for a season in the Cards front office, and their commitment to the fans in unreal for an organization that is basically handed a full stadium every night. When ticketmaster screwed up and double-booked 2,000 seats, we scrambled to place all those fans in new seats, get them each 2 tickets to another game, gave them free food and drinks, and offered to refund their ticket price. That's no consolation prize if you ask me. When that happened to my friend at the Saints game, they shrugged and suggested she find somewhere else to watch in the stadium. The Cardinals don't need to care as much as they do about the fans, but they still do. They heard the fans clamor for Matt Holliday and Mark DeRosa, and at season's end both were on the Cardinals, for a steep price too. So what liberties are they taking that other franchises can't have? There is no need to talk trash on the Cards front office, they are very well organized, it's full of great friendly people, and they care deeply about the fan base and it shows.
I get tired of some of the Blues fans who hate the Cardinals simply because they are the most popular team in town. Sorry, they've been here 100 years. They've won 10 championships, second only to the Yankees. They've had some of the greatest players to ever play the game play for them.
Why shouldn't the city be in love? Because you like hockey better and thus the city should too? I like hockey better too, but I appreciate baseball, and I appreciate what the Cardinals have done for St. Louis. They are more popular than either the Rams or the Blues outside of St. Louis, and they carry the name of St. Louis well. To dislike them simply because the St. Louis media gives them more coverage is disrespectful of the franchise and what it has meant to St. Louis as a city. You should want the team to do well and earn St. Louis respect, instead of wishing them into disaster. That's not person specific, that's to anyone who wishes the Cards would lose simply so the media can focus on the Blues.
How often have you dealt with their front office? Sure the baseball decision guys haven't made themselves as accessible as the Blues hockey decisions guys (But then they weren't accessible either until Checketts and JD came around), but the rest of the front office bends over backwards for the fans.
I was lucky enough to work for a season in the Cards front office, and their commitment to the fans in unreal for an organization that is basically handed a full stadium every night. When ticketmaster screwed up and double-booked 2,000 seats, we scrambled to place all those fans in new seats, get them each 2 tickets to another game, gave them free food and drinks, and offered to refund their ticket price. That's no consolation prize if you ask me. When that happened to my friend at the Saints game, they shrugged and suggested she find somewhere else to watch in the stadium. The Cardinals don't need to care as much as they do about the fans, but they still do. They heard the fans clamor for Matt Holliday and Mark DeRosa, and at season's end both were on the Cardinals, for a steep price too. So what liberties are they taking that other franchises can't have? There is no need to talk trash on the Cards front office, they are very well organized, it's full of great friendly people, and they care deeply about the fan base and it shows.
I get tired of some of the Blues fans who hate the Cardinals simply because they are the most popular team in town. Sorry, they've been here 100 years. They've won 10 championships, second only to the Yankees. They've had some of the greatest players to ever play the game play for them.
Why shouldn't the city be in love? Because you like hockey better and thus the city should too? I like hockey better too, but I appreciate baseball, and I appreciate what the Cardinals have done for St. Louis. They are more popular than either the Rams or the Blues outside of St. Louis, and they carry the name of St. Louis well. To dislike them simply because the St. Louis media gives them more coverage is disrespectful of the franchise and what it has meant to St. Louis as a city. You should want the team to do well and earn St. Louis respect, instead of wishing them into disaster. That's not person specific, that's to anyone who wishes the Cards would lose simply so the media can focus on the Blues.
I understand your criticism for people who don't like the Cardinals simply because they are the most popular team in town. That's not my reason though. And I don't not like the Cardinals because I don't like baseball. To the contrary, I throughly enjoy the sport of baseball. I don't really like talking about it because I'm here to chat hockey, not baseball. Also, being from St. Louis and saying you're not a Cardinals fan is grounds for a Witch Hunt sometimes.
However, the Cardinals alienated me when they whined and complained to the city and were gift wrapped a new stadium paid for, somewhat, by the tax payers, even the Busch II was fine. I'm sorry, if you want a new ball park, build it yourself.
Then the Cardinals put off the Ballpark Village that was planned, and instead left it as a giant crator in the middle of downtown St. Louis. You want to talk about showing and earning respect for the city? Well that sure as hell isn't the way to do it. Then, in order NOT to disgrace the city too much, the club decided to take this partially tax-payer purchased crater that was supposed to be a new financial center for the city, and fill it in as a field so as not to embarrass the city of St. Louis too badly on National TV for the All-Star game. Only here again, the money grubbing Cardinals do the city a disservice and charge the average citizen (who paid for the damn land and had to look at the unsightly blemish on the city) to play ona field that they temselves paid for with their tax dollars.
I know that the entire stadium wasn't paid for by tax dollars, but it still gets me aggrivated. Up until the new stadium, I was a Cardinal fan. Ever since then, I've become an anti-Cardinal fan.
My dislike for the Cardinals has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with their popularity in the city, the sport they play, or the media coverage of the Cardinals over the Blues. I just simply have a hard time justifying myself to root for an organization that has basically stolen money from tax payers for their own services. Sorry, it's how I feel. I think the club (players, managers, coaches, fans, etc. etc.) are probably mostly good people, however, I can not wish for them to prosper so long as the current ownership is intact (which isn't going to change anytime soon).
That's why I don't like the Cardinals. Don't pigeon hole me into disliking the Cardinals simply because I'm a hockey fan. That has nothing to do with it, as I'm a sports fan, not just a hockey fan.
That's fine to be pissed about ballpark village. Hell, that was supposed to be completed a year after the stadium opened, and look where it is. I've never seen any company drag its heels as much as the Cardinals have. When I was there Dewitt III took over as president, and gave a little speech about the progress of ballpark village, which despite trying to dress it up, the verdict really was that there was no progress. It was also very painful to walk past that crater every day with a water pump running to keep the lake to a lower level although it never emptied. So believe me I understand that.
But also understand there is a lot right with the organization and the way they treat their fans on gameday. They aren't uncaring, they actually care a whole lot. Besides the nickle and dime ownership, the front office staff is very caring and committed to ensuring fans have a great time when they come to the Cards games. I personally appreciate that a lot, especially from an organization that sells tickets without trying. Sure, hate the ownership (Although give them some credit for opening the pocketbooks for Holliday, DeRosa, signing Shelby Miller and at least trying to sign Wagner Mateo before that eye condition thing) but don't hate the front office as a whole. It's really a good organization that cares a whole lot.
I understand your criticism for people who don't like the Cardinals simply because they are the most popular team in town. That's not my reason though. And I don't not like the Cardinals because I don't like baseball. To the contrary, I throughly enjoy the sport of baseball. I don't really like talking about it because I'm here to chat hockey, not baseball. Also, being from St. Louis and saying you're not a Cardinals fan is grounds for a Witch Hunt sometimes.
However, the Cardinals alienated me when they whined and complained to the city and were gift wrapped a new stadium paid for, somewhat, by the tax payers, even the Busch II was fine. I'm sorry, if you want a new ball park, build it yourself.
Then the Cardinals put off the Ballpark Village that was planned, and instead left it as a giant crator in the middle of downtown St. Louis. You want to talk about showing and earning respect for the city? Well that sure as hell isn't the way to do it. Then, in order NOT to disgrace the city too much, the club decided to take this partially tax-payer purchased crater that was supposed to be a new financial center for the city, and fill it in as a field so as not to embarrass the city of St. Louis too badly on National TV for the All-Star game. Only here again, the money grubbing Cardinals do the city a disservice and charge the average citizen (who paid for the damn land and had to look at the unsightly blemish on the city) to play ona field that they temselves paid for with their tax dollars.
I know that the entire stadium wasn't paid for by tax dollars, but it still gets me aggrivated. Up until the new stadium, I was a Cardinal fan. Ever since then, I've become an anti-Cardinal fan.
My dislike for the Cardinals has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with their popularity in the city, the sport they play, or the media coverage of the Cardinals over the Blues. I just simply have a hard time justifying myself to root for an organization that has basically stolen money from tax payers for their own services. Sorry, it's how I feel. I think the club (players, managers, coaches, fans, etc. etc.) are probably mostly good people, however, I can not wish for them to prosper so long as the current ownership is intact (which isn't going to change anytime soon).
That's why I don't like the Cardinals. Don't pigeon hole me into disliking the Cardinals simply because I'm a hockey fan. That has nothing to do with it, as I'm a sports fan, not just a hockey fan.
As much as I would love to blame the Cards for not following through on Ballpark Village. That in my eyes is entirely the city's fault from a political standpoint. St. Louis has always gotten the brunt of bad politicians, thats why the city has not made significant progress in ages and is constantly loosing business to other more progressive cities in the region.
I'm glad St. Louis City didn't give in to Cordish and back those bonds.
Kansas City did, and from my understanding, their Power and Light District (while built) is under performing and losing money. It sounds like they were counting on an NHL or NBA team by now.
I'm afraid if we had built Ballpark Village, it would be half empty and losing money. The city would be on the hook for the bonds. And I would want to make sure that a good amount of the space in the buildings (if they are eventually built), will have corporations ready to move in.
I understand that we don't have enough space in one single building Downtown for some larger corporations, but I wouldn't want Ballpark Village to suck smaller corporations away from the buildings they are already occupying.
I want Ballpark Village to be built, but only under the right circumstances. And in this economy, I fear if Ballpark Village had been built, it would have been a money pit.
As far as the Stadium, most of it was built with private money, which is a rarity anymore. At least the Cardinals didn't threaten to leave unless given a new stadium, which some teams do.
According to this
Quote:
Cost: $365 million (original estimate was $344.8 million)
Public financing: $45 million long-term loan from St. Louis County.
Private financing: $90.1 million from the Cardinals, $9.2 million in interest earned on the construction fund, and $200.5 million in bonds to be paid over a 22-year period ($15.9 million per year) by the team. Anheuser-Busch agreed to a 20 year naming rights deal (through the 2025 season) which will help offset construction costs.
True, $45 million is a lot of money, but it technically is a loan. And the Cardinals are paying back the $200 million bonds. But the St. Louis county loan is a long-term loan. St. Louis county population is 991,830 people. That's about $45 per person in tax money. While that's a fair amount of money per person, some teams have done worse to their cities/metros. I understand and respect your position. But it seems like most teams use some public money. And Busch Stadium does bring tax dollars in and brings people to the stadium (and to the surrounding area). Granted, there are the $200 million in bonds. I'm guessing from the metro area. It doesn't say.
About Scottrade Center http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/St.LouisBlues/index.htm
Granted, Scottrade is apparently owned by the city (which makes sense for stuff like basketball and concerts), while Busch Stadium is owned by the Cardinals. So Scottrade does bring revenue to the city.
Quote:
Cost of Construction $170 million
Arena Financing City contributed $34.5 million for site preparation and garages; 20 corporations provided $30 million cash and guaranteed $98 million in construction loans.
The city contributed $34.5 million to it. But the city does own the Scot. So it's a different situation.
But public financing is not uncommon.
Take the Marlins new proposed stadium for example
Quote:
Owner: Miami-Dade County
Cost: $525 million
Public financing: $347 million from Miami-Dade County, and $23 million from the city of Miami
Private financing: $155 from the Marlins
Granted, Miami-Dade county will own it. And it would have a retractable roof for concerts. But the Marlins would be using it 81 days a year, so it would have less concerts than, say, a hockey arena which is used 41 days a year for hockey. http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/index.htm
Although, looking at other baseball parks, most are owned by their prospective cities. But most do not have retractable roofs, and are in a climate that means outdoor concerts and events in winter are not likely and April through October they are used 81 days. So as far as concerts and events or the like, they're not of much use. But the revenue they generate goes to the city, I would assume. And the teams probably have a lease.
Overall, I understand and respect your perspective, but the Cardinals are hardly the worst when it comes to public financing. And the Cardinals aren't likely to go away any time soon. I'm pretty sure those bonds and the loan will be paid back.
Last edited by MissouriBlues2008: 10-11-2009 at 02:50 AM.
