I have not started a thread in a while, but this has been irking me for some time.
We have a HUGE hole in our organization which is plain to see, and it will need to be addressed soon... in fact -based on development time- it may already be too late.
I am speaking to the lack of high-end D prospects.
It seemed like for years we mainly drafted Dmen --with (outside of Stuart and Hunwick) nothing to really show for it (thanks Lars). The most we got out of a few of those years was a few years of Jurcina and Alberts. If Lashoff does turn out it –well, it isn't going to be for us. My point is not to attack past drafts BUT to point out where we currently are.
I like some of the guys we have in the system in 5-6 roles, but we don't have any high-end guys (just my my opinion). Sometimes they are on the UFA market, but never at a good price. Obviously, if we want to have a high-end team, we need to be able to work with the cap, year-in and year-out.
Part of the reason I am getting really worried is because of what is coming up through our DIVISION.
Boston: The fact that a just-drafted 80something pick in Button can stand out so much isn’t always a good sign. Don’t get me wrong… I like Button, but he should be further down the depth chart, no?
Cross: Has yet to do anything to justify the picks given up for him. His stock has gone down due to a few serious knee injuries… already.
Alexandrov --the skinny Russian kid: I’d almost be relieved to learn he has a crack addiction, under the premise he could kick it and finally put on some weight. Again, his UPSIDE at this point isn’t worth getting excited over.
McQuaid: I like this guy. Strong, shut-down Dman. Looks like a good #6 though.
Group of tiny puckmovers: Nothing elite about any of them, and at that size (in the NHL) they had better have some elite categories to them.
Buffalo: Tyler Myers. Absolute stud potential. Period. Potential #1 Dman.
Buffalo also has some very nice young puck movers developing in their system.
Montreal: Personally, I think PK Subban is the most over-hyped prospect in the world… but at even 1/2 the hype he is better than any D prospect we have.
Toronto: Luke Schenn may, or may not, develop a bigger offensive role, but he looks like he will become an ELITE shut-down Dman in the NHL for years, and years.
Ottawa: This is where it starts to get really scary. Forget Lee (don’t know what to think of him 1/2 the time) but Erik Karlsson (who I was hoping the Bruins would trade up to get last year) is one of those small puck-moving guys with ELITE skills. Then, to balance that out, they will have Jared Cowen who will be an ELITE shutdown Dman in the mold of Schenn (Cowen has even bigger upside IMO). Then Weircioch decided he would play like he is the steal of the 08 draft with an insane first year in the NCAA. He would be the #1 (skater) prospect on the Bruins.
Now, I’m not saying the Bruins should fear these teams, but we need to address the fact that we don’t have any D prospects in the system worth getting excited about. Again, I like Button, but I don’t want to put unfair expectations on him based on where he was drafted. We don’t draft a lot of Dmen lately, so we shouldn’t be surprised that it is looking bad.
I would be surprised if there was an NHL franchise with a weaker set of D prospects.
Not to bring everything back to Kessel, but it is obvious that a trade is likely. The picks don’t do it for me at this point, and it is obvious that our forward depth at this point is borderline insane.
What we need to FINALLY address is the defence. (And no, I’m not talking about Toronto’s scraps in Ian White –yuck).This is why I was always after Johnson or Hickey from LA, but I don’t think there is anything there. I do like all the Nashville talk because they are like the Bizzaro-Bruins who have focused on D, D, and more D. I mean taking Ellis at this draft just seemed like overkill.
They have 3 guys who should be targets in a deal in Franson, Blum and Ellis.
Franson is a lot like a bigger Matt Lashoff. Has skills, but doesn’t use his size to his advantage all the time. Big upside though.
Blum is a sexy pick but doesn’t do a ton for me because I am not sure how he will translate at this point. He is still a skinny-framed guy who has been on a power-house team. Ellis is another small guy on a power-house Jr. club –but he is such a gamer that he’ll hit anyone and can absolutely crank them on the PP. There are some blemishes on all 3 of these guys ---they are not a Bogosian or Doughty to be sure, but they are guys that do have high-end skills. Heck, Nashville has a few other young D guys I really like (such as C.O.R). I am excited when I hear of a possible Nashville deal, because they are the team with the stacked pile of D prospects that could fix our hole in one foul swoop.
(ps: This isn't a Kessel-based thread... I don't know if he will even get traded, or what the return will be)
Even if we draft all Dmen every round next year, it is too late to restock our D prospects through the draft to help our team in the near future (taking into consideration how long it takes for the average 18 year old Dman to develop).
Does anyone else have the same disappointed/uneasy feeling I have when they look through our line-up of D prospects or am I over-reacting?
Colt..I think you are overeacting. I agree the D cupboard is prospect bare but 2 things:
that is a future worry.
and other non D prospects can be used to get some when the time comes.
The key to me is having NHL ready prospects , good ones, regardless of position.
__________________ hello?..hello?...is this thing on?
and other non D prospects can be used to get some when the time comes.
The key to me is having NHL ready prospects , good ones, regardless of position.
I respectfully disagree with this theory Walls. When a Dman develops into a good two-way player they become INSANELY expensive. Young star Dmen are generally 100% untouchable once they develop.
Lombardi wouldn't even think of trading Doughty for Stamkos only one year later.
It would likely take Kessel + Krejci to get Shea Weber at this point etc...
I respectfully disagree with this theory Walls. When a Dman develops into a good two-way player they become INSANELY expensive. Young star Dmen are generally 100% untouchable once they develop.
Lombardi wouldn't even think of trading Doughty for Stamkos only one year later.
It would likely take Kessel + Krejci to get Shea Weber at this point etc...
I'll give you that.
To me it's BPA when drafting.
Studs to me in value are :
1 - goalie
2 - D men
3 - Forwards
But if it ain't there when you're picking you still need to take the best player. A solid "D" will cost more, agreed. So, you better hope you've drafted wisely and can free assets up to get one.
GMs will be hesitant...but there is always a way.
Last edited by Gee Wally: 09-11-2009 at 11:28 PM.
Reason: waaay too tired.
chara isn't getting any younger...and is probably getting shorter due to older age ...but seriously, we don't really even have a lashoff or sigalet in our system anymore...and that's a bit frightening.
I'd rather be sitting like Nashville right now, where I could trade 3 guys away, and still have pretty good depth on the back end! While none of their prospects may ever be franchise defenseman, they'll certainly be top 4...and that's more than we can say for any providence d-man...at least on paper NOW, not 3 years down the road.
Bruins checklist:
Goalies - check - one vezina, one potential calder...one may falter (the old guy), but i doubt both will.
Scoring depth - check - there aren't too many teams willing to deal a ph...stop it RIGHT THERE!
NHL Defense - check - solid upstairs...but that's where it ends
Grinders - check - there's 4 waiting in providence NOW!
Good rundown, Colt. Mid and late-round picks just aren't likely to get you a top-end defenseman, and if you ask me they really blew it with the picks they made on D over the last few years.
I've said it again, but Lashoff, Morrisonn, Johnson, and Boynton were four of this team's first-round picks over the last decade. To show for it? Recchi and a second-round pick (unless I'm missing some trade for picks that panned out). Stuart was a good pick, Lashoff just didn't develop defensively, Boynton has the skills but apparently an attitude/mentality problem, Jonsson played 8 NHL games, and Morrisonn is good depth but still depth.
For guys drafted as high as 7 (SEVEN!!) that's a terrible, unforgivable ratio of successes to failures by a scouting team that is allegedly one of the best in the business. It is for this reason that I think the scouting team is overrated.
Colt...I have been thinking the same thing and we all saw this cluster at the forward position coming. If Kessel is to be dealt it is crucial that we land a Top Pairing D prospect.
For some reason Alex Pietrangelo keeps popping in my head. Its crazy because St Louis has some pretty good forwards as well and don't really have a need for Kessel. But yet I am still beating the Alex Pietrangelo drum for some reason. If StLouis does land Kessel we could see them do what the Bruins did last year and surprise alot of teams.
Regarding Nashville, Blum, Franson & Ellis are all right handed Dman. (As is Alex Pietrangelo). But you are right....Nashville has an abundance of Dman prospects and I can't for the life of me think of why they need so many RH defenceman. FYI...Weber, Klien and even their new prospect Charles-Olivier Roussel is a RH shot. Correct me if I am wrong but aren't skilled RH Dman a rarity in the NHL. Not sure why that is but most of the good D are LH.
To me that reads that they were planning on the RH D over load and had hopes of one day shipping some of those guys out to fill their organizational needs.
Enter the Bruins with the insane forward depth. Nashville and Boston make perfect trading partners. Problem is that Nashville holds the upper hand because their D hold more value than our forwards. Going by HF standards anyway.
Loved the Alexandrov analogy. I have been laughing at the kid for a while. Can't get DJ Qualls dancing to beastie Boys out of my head (Road Trip) They look the same. He needs that look/stare (The New Guy) to strike any fear in the opposition if he is going to survive. (have to see the movie to know what I am talking about)
Also, agree with PK Subban. Hab fans seem to pimp up thier prospects so much that they are bound to fail. (see Latendresse/Price) PK Subban sure has alot to live up too. To me he is Arnold Drummond from Different strokes but soon we will see him playing for the Habs.
As for other teams loading up...
-I have been looking at Buffalo and really like Meyers alot and also noted that they picked up Kassian. To me he will be a Lucic type player and every team should at least have a guy like him on it. Buff is consistant with Ruff stearing the ship and his plans seem to work.
-NYR sure have an abundance of D prospects especially when they won the Gilroy lottery. Add McDonough and they re-stocked that shelf pretty good. But NYR has a way of messing up the building process.
-Never really gave Ott a second look but that makes sense what you were saying. Sure will be interesting to see what they look like after they get rid of Heatley. Depending on how they make out they could do alot of damage quicker than expected. Heatley will be a big lose but they should have the depth to cover him if everything falls into place.
In the end, if we retain a Dcore of Chara, Wideman & Stuart we should be ok for a few years. Free agency can fill in the hole like we did with Morris. So the sense of urgency isn't there but its clear where the weakness is. In a CAP world its all about having the right guys with the right salary and the Bruins will be forced to have an expensive D core because they has to go out and pay for it. Developing is way cheaper as we all know.
Last edited by Kosikarzzz: 09-12-2009 at 12:36 AM.
This is exactly what we need from the vets of this board. More posts like this, great job Colt.
Okay now that I'm done kissing butt...
I am totally on board with Colt 100 %. As much as I agree with the best player available approach, the fact they picked Colborne when they did proves the Bruins are willing to go off the charts a bit.
Now the fact they have what would be an abundance of forwards who have a pretty good upside, they can be used as trade bait to bring in those much needed defenseman.
As for starting to draft them now I think we are a year if not more to late in doing so. It takes defensemen longer to develop into the players we all think they will become so we should of been drafting the odd one say 2 years ago.
Unlike Colt I don't have a problem with White, he plays bigger then what he is and has good speed, but trading PK for him would be a big mistake.
Defensemen need to be in the system because we are lacking there very badly.
I agree the D prospects are a bit thin. But to be honest, I'd rather buy my top end guys ( like Chara, Morris ) via free agency when they are in their prime and fill the bottom roles with the Hunwicks/Stuarts/Hnidy's of the league ie: vets or kids learning the ropes.
I agree the D prospects are a bit thin. But to be honest, I'd rather buy my top end guys ( like Chara, Morris ) via free agency when they are in their prime and fill the bottom roles with the Hunwicks/Stuarts/Hnidy's of the league ie: vets or kids learning the ropes.
Don't you think that is an expensive and somewhat dangerous way to build a defense though VR ?
Looking around the league, alphabetically, and two at a time, I wanted to see how we match up.
Anaheim:
3 of their top 4 prospects are Dmen. Holland comes in at #3, so they don't have total scraps or anything.
1) Sbisa
2)Gardiner
4)Mitera
Atlanta:
1)Bogosian (best 18 year old Dman I have EVER seen in my life)
They also have Tobias Enstrom...
Well with Bobby Alan in the lineup now and Getzlaf and Perry they don't really need Kessel and they just lost Pronger and Beauchimen(sp) and will say good bye to Neidermayer after this season; so they need those guys to take over.
Do you think Atlanta would give up Bogosian for Kessel or what else would we have to throw in ?
Funny, for years I thought the B's were trying too hard to get the next Shore/Orr/Park/Bourque guy in the draft, and now I think the opposite: they go for best player and not most important player.
I get ripped every time, but the "hole" is owner. For nearly 4 decades there is only one constant: Jeremy. Cheap or imcompetent, it doesn't matter. He is the only guy here the whole time we haven't won. I do think Chia is capable and has the power, but 30 plus years of futility is not easily dismissed. Every great organization starts at the top, and for too long our top guy hasn't been up to snuff.
Funny, for years I thought the B's were trying too hard to get the next Shore/Orr/Park/Bourque guy in the draft, and now I think the opposite: they go for best player and not most important player.
I get ripped every time, but the "hole" is owner. For nearly 4 decades there is only one constant: Jeremy. Cheap or imcompetent, it doesn't matter. He is the only guy here the whole time we haven't won. I do think Chia is capable and has the power, but 30 plus years of futility is not easily dismissed. Every great organization starts at the top, and for too long our top guy hasn't been up to snuff.
How in the blue hell can you tie Jacobs into the drafting of defensemen ?
Don't you think that is an expensive and somewhat dangerous way to build a defense though VR ?
Expensive? Yes. But you're paying for a proven product which is never a bad thing. After top end goalie, I'd say a top end defenseman is the second most sought after commodity in the league. If you decide to take the bringing up from within route, you have the waiting period that it takes for defensemen to learn their craft and reach their potential, which can take several years. And in some cases, they don't make it at all.
Draft solid Dmen... buy your top end guys in their prime... fill the 4-6 slots with vets and kids with potential that need experience. That's how I'd do it.
Well with Bobby Alan in the lineup now and Getzlaf and Perry they don't really need Kessel and they just lost Pronger and Beauchimen(sp) and will say good bye to Neidermayer after this season; so they need those guys to take over.
Do you think Atlanta would give up Bogosian for Kessel or what else would we have to throw in ?
I wasn't really looking for trade partners here --just seeing how far we are behind other teams at this position.
I've said before I would do Kessel + Wideman for Bogosian. Maybe that is a bad trade... but I think it would turn out to be a great deal for us.
Kessel + Wideman
for
Bogosian + (chunk of cap space for signing a UFA replacement)
I wasn't really looking for trade partners here --just seeing how far we are behind other teams at this position.
I've said before I would do Kessel + Wideman for Bogosian. Maybe that is a bad trade... but I think it would turn out to be a great deal for us.
Kessel + Wideman
for
Bogosian + (chunk of cap space for signing a UFA replacement)
I'd do that trade 10/10 times. Bogosian is a stud, and as close to a sure thing as there is. Like you said, I can't think of an 18 year old defenseman who was as good as him that I've personally seen. I normally don't get too ga-ga over defensemen under 23, but Bogosian is just a freak.
waiiit so we trade a reasonably priced #2 defenseman and a recalcitrant rfa forward for a prospect who has #1 upside but is right now a #4, and by the time he's a #2 he'll want wideman money
i don't see how that's anything more than kicking the can down the road, it's not like we do a whole lot other than clear up space to sign a #3/#4 defenseman, which brings us back to the same problem we had before, which is our defense is actually p mediocre at transitioning
Expensive? Yes. But you're paying for a proven product which is never a bad thing. After top end goalie, I'd say a top end defenseman is the second most sought after commodity in the league. If you decide to take the bringing up from within route, you have the waiting period that it takes for defensemen to learn their craft and reach their potential, which can take several years. And in some cases, they don't make it at all.
Draft solid Dmen... buy your top end guys in their prime... fill the 4-6 slots with vets and kids with potential that need experience. That's how I'd do it.
Can't really argue with that at all. But I do like the thought of us drafting that true stud for our defense though.
I wasn't really looking for trade partners here --just seeing how far we are behind other teams at this position.
I've said before I would do Kessel + Wideman for Bogosian. Maybe that is a bad trade... but I think it would turn out to be a great deal for us.
Kessel + Wideman
for
Bogosian + (chunk of cap space for signing a UFA replacement)
My bad, sorry Colt. I can understand why also...sorry.
But the more YOU look into it and post it, it does look more and more like the cupboard is bare in the defensemen area for the Bruins.
Just a thought but it seems to me that there is not a lot of offensive minded defensemen lately. They are there but they seem to be few and far between.
