I would like to ask the hockey "historians" here at HFBoards why Messier is always considered much higher than Yzerman on the all-time list, despite Yzerman scoring close to the same amount of goals and points in much less games, putting up much better numbers, winning three Cups and a Conn Smythe without one of the best players ever, being arguably a better leader, staying with one team that he rebuilt from the ground up, putting up the best statistical season other than Gretzky and Lemieux, revamping his game to a defensive forward yet still putting up a PPG in the dead puck era, and his heroics in the 02 playoffs on one knee.
I'd love to know how Messier is a better player than Steve Yzerman.
I am not sure who considers Messier "much" higher but I have Messier at #35 all-time and Yzerman at #43.
The difference is that Messier had a lot more consideration for the Hart Trophy during his career than did Yzerman. Other than that they are VERY close in comparison.
I would like to ask the hockey "historians" here at HFBoards why Messier is always considered much higher than Yzerman on the all-time list, despite Yzerman scoring close to the same amount of goals and points in much less games, putting up much better numbers, winning three Cups and a Conn Smythe without one of the best players ever, being arguably a better leader, staying with one team that he rebuilt from the ground up, putting up the best statistical season other than Gretzky and Lemieux, revamping his game to a defensive forward yet still putting up a PPG in the dead puck era, and his heroics in the 02 playoffs on one knee.
I'd love to know how Messier is a better player than Steve Yzerman.
So much better?
How so?
You do realize that the difference between 10 spots is not nearly as big as you make it out to be.
Regarding Messier.....Its easy for revisionists to slag him because he played on a great team behind Gretzky. But do those same revisionists acknowledge that Messier's stats improved upon taking over the reigns when Gretzky(And Coffey) left? I feel its safe to say Messier's stats would have been the same, if not better were he getting more top line icetime replacing Gretzky in those early years.
A team that loses 2 Marquee top players like Gretzky and Coffey should be much weaker, yet Messier lead them to a cup just a year later. He also was a top Conn Smythe candidate that year, despite losing out to Ranford. He went to NYR and immediately turned them from a middling team to a top contender in 91-92. Despite the circus that was 92-93 and the divided locker room against Nielsen, Messier made them rebound and won another cup, once again a Conn Smythe candidate.
Messier won 2 Harts competing directly with Lemieux and Gretzky(And was runner up for another, although I believe the 90 Hart was Bourque's), and defensively, was better than Yzerman before Yzerman's transition. Only 1 Smythe, yet in many of Messier's other playoffs, he put up performances equal to or better than Yzerman's best playoff performance.
Yzerman's stats actually decreased once he had more scoring help and was not the only go to guy logging huge minutes, before his transition into a more defensive game in the mid 90's. Even if you remove Gretzky and Lemieux, Yzerman would only have won a single Hart trophy.
These are the common reasons you will see. I am not saying I agree with all of them, but I do agree Messier deserves to be slightly ahead of Yzerman, as does Sakic.
As to who is the better leader is always debatable. Both guys have their pros and cons. Regarding Yzerman rebuilding that team from the ground up, errrr, why are you giving him credit for the scouting, drafting and training of their GM and Coach?
Quote:
"Winning 3 cups and a Conn smythe without one of the best players ever"
Very misleading. Not only did Messier win multiple cups without Gretzky, but Yzerman did not win cups until he was also on a very very strong and stacked team.
People forget that early in his career before he turned 30, Yzerman was criticized the way Joe Thornton is today.
__________________
"I would say I've never seen a guy who did as much offensively and
defensively as much as Bobby Orr did."
-Gordie Howe - "Mr. Hockey" HOCKEY HISTORIAN'S CORNER
People tend to get a little to high on longevity from what I've seen and read. I personally think Yzerman deserves to be higher than Messier, even though I really like Messier.
I'm a "historian" and I openly question this too, because Messier's placements among the league leaders in goals and assists are rather underwhelming for a guy with his career totals.
But, he was bigger and stronger than them, had a better all-around and physical game, and his array of placements in the playoff leaderboard year-by-year is extremely impressive.
I think it is closer than most people will admit. I had Messier 29th on my HOH top-100 submission, with Sakic 31st and Yzerman 35th. I just sent in my round 3 votes and I had the Moose 6th, Sakic 7th, and Yzerman 13th.
People tend to get a little to high on longevity from what I've seen and read. I personally think Yzerman deserves to be higher than Messier, even though I really like Messier.
Look I love Yzerman but I think it's pretty clear Messier is the all time better player. Lets not forget, Yzerman wasn't great defensively when he was racking up 50-60 goals a year. He was a great player then, but later in his career when he won the Cups he sacrificed offense for wins. That's fine but I don't think Messier had to do any of that. From day one he was better overall on both ends of the ice. Plus when push came to shove Messier was always the winner in the votes with two Hart Trophies and two first team all-stars right in the middle of Yzermans prime ('90 and '92).
Overall I have to clearly go with Messier's career. IMO there might be 15 players that had a better career than him and that's pushing it. As good as Yzerman was, he tends to get too much love here. I'd put Sakic ahead of him barely all time and I'd put Messier ahead of Sakic
People tend to get a little to high on longevity from what I've seen and read. I personally think Yzerman deserves to be higher than Messier, even though I really like Messier.
Hart Trophies:
Messier 2
Yzerman 0
Harts lost to Mario/Gretzky
Messier 1
Yzerman 1
Art Rosses lost to Mario/Gretzky
Messier 2
Yzerman 1`
Playoff points
Messier 295 in 236 games
Yzerman 185 in 196 games
Yzerman was a relatively soft player until he sacrificed some offense. Messier was never soft.
Messier was quite clearly the better player at their respective peaks.
Yzerman has outscored the rest of the NHL (minus the freaks: Lemieux and Gretzky) by over 40% -- a margin rarely seen outside of the top 4 all-time -- while getting first place votes for the Selke (which is unheard of). He also won a near unanimous Selke at the age of 34/35, after numerous injuries, while placing in the top 10 for points in the league.
He also did more with less, putting up the most points on the worst team -- of anyone.
Messier has never been better than Yzerman defensively (hitting and cheap-shotting, sure). Yzerman was infused with defensive play in juniors Dick Todd at Peterborough and throughout the 80s, from Polano to Demers, was double-shifted on checking lines and was a top penalty killer for a very-penalized Detroit team.
Bob McCammon in Vancouver praised Yzerman's well rounded play back in his 155 point season after a 34 minute performance where Yzerman had to kill 47 minutes of Detroit penalties (St. Petersburg Times - Thursday, March 16, 1989).
Paul Maurice mentioned how it was more the perception and circumstances that had changed on how Yzerman was viewed:
"I think he was always a complete player it's just that the circumstances have changed," says Carolina coach Paul Maurice. "Steve Yzerman's emergence as a total player has been seen by the media as a change in his game but I think it's more a case of moving forward. The Detroit Red Wings got to the point where they don't have to rely on him for his offense every night. He's always been a complete player but the team was not as good over the years and had to rely on him every night to provide offense. The Detroit Red Wings have the supporting cast and while Steve Yzerman is a great offensive player, he is also a great defensive player." (http://www.steviey.net/archives90s.htm)
Keenan disputed the popular theory that Yzerman is a much better all-around player now than he was then.
"I wouldn't say he's a different player," Keenan said. "I see a player who's always been an excellent player and a threat. I see a player playing on a better team than he had in the past."
Larionov spoke of how Yzerman checked him in the 1985 World Championships:
Yzerman was always capable of playing defensive hockey, said Igor Larionov, a 37-year-old center from Russia. Larionov recalled playing for the Soviet Union in the world championships of 1985, when Yzerman took a role on Team Canada's checking line. In the medal round, against the famous KLM line, Yzerman held Larionov off the score sheet as Canada won, 3-1. http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sp...ading-man.html
In the 1993 Quaterfinals against the Leafs, Yzerman was pulled aside by then assistant GM Doug Maclean who told him not to play so Defensively but rather concentrate on Offense: "He got so preoccupied with playing defence and worrying about what Doug Gilmour was doing that he was handling the puck like it was a grenade," said MacLean. "I was just trying to build a little confidence in him and told him to stop worrying about checking and being the main man" (Hamilton Spectator - February 7, 1994). In Game Six of that series Yzerman was told by Bryan Murray to match up against Gilmour, and played an incredible game. Though that Game was a huge show of Offense by Paul Coffey's 4 points and Dino Ciccarelli's hatrick, Yzerman was the Player of the Game the way he shut down Gilmour while controlling the Play, chipping in with a Goal and a Assist.
Yzerman went from good defensively and elite offensively to good offensively (despite numerous injuries and much less speed) and elite defensively.
Say what you want about Messier's Harts, but Yzerman was right there.
In 1990, Bourque was probably robbed for the Hart, but why was Yzerman 7th in voting? Mainly because Detroit simply sucked and did not make the playoffs.
Making the playoffs after Gretzky's and Coffey's departure was a huge plus for Messier in the Hart voting department, but was he a "better player" that year? I don't think so.
1989-90 29 Edmonton Oilers NHL 79 45 84 129
1989-90 24 Detroit Red Wings NHL 79 62 65 127
Yzerman put up 2 less points but 17 more goals than Messier, on a much worse team. Detroit had 70 pts that season compared to Edmonton's 90 pts.
Kurri had 93 pts that year with Anderson at 72 and Tikkanen at 63.
Yzerman had Gallant with 80 pts followed by Federko (57 pts) and Burr (56 pts).
In 1992 Messier had 107 pts to Yzerman's 102 pts with Yzerman scoring 10 more goals.
In 1996 Messier was runner-up for the Hart with 99 pts while Yzerman had 95 points and was third that year for the Selke.
Peak and prime, Yzerman (on much worse teams) outscored Messier and was better defensively.
Only two players, in the history of the NHL, have scored more points than Steve Yzerman in one season: Gretzky and Lemieux.
20 players have scored more than Messier in a season.
In their best 5 seasons:
281 goals 630 points -- Yzerman
202 goals 560 points -- Messier
79 more goals and 70 more points -- In only 5 seasons!
For 10 years (1984 - 1994):
469 G 653 A 1,122 Pts -- Yzerman: (3rd in goals and points to only Gretzky and Lemieux)
345 G 681 A 1,026 Pts -- Messier: (20th in goals and 6th in points)
Messier has a better playoff record, though they both have 1 Conn Smythe.
Remember that Messier had deep, deep runs in the playoffs all throughout his prime, on great teams; and never played a playoff game after 1997. The bulk of Yzerman's prime were on Red Wings teams that were lucky if they even made the playoffs - and injuries had limited him offensively one he was surrounded with a good team in Detroit, though he was still very effective, even putting in a point-per-game at the age of 41 in the playoffs. His 2002 run at the age of 37 is nothing short of epic.
Oh, and Yzerman never had a Vancouver
Last edited by RabbinsDuck: 08-17-2009 at 01:44 PM.
Messier's first 3 All-Star team selections came as a left wing.
1st Team in 82 and 83 as well as a 2nd Team in 84.
4 left-wingers outscored him in 82, by the way.
I wonder how many Yzerman would have as a left-winger?
Voters simply loved Messier
In 1992 he was the 1st Team selection at center despite being outscored by Gretzky (12 pts) and Lemieux (22 points).
In 1990 he was outscored by Gretzky by 13 points and Yzerman had 2 less points but 17 more goals.
Last edited by RabbinsDuck: 08-17-2009 at 11:34 AM.
Yzerman has outscored the rest of the NHL (minus the freaks: Lemieux and Gretzky) by over 40% -- a margin rarely seen outside of the top 4 all-time -- while getting first place votes for the Selke (which is unheard of). He also won a near unanimous Selke at the age of 34/35, after numerous injuries, while placing in the top 10 for points in the league.
He also did more with less, putting up the most points on the worst team -- of anyone.
Messier has never been better than Yzerman defensively (hitting and cheap-shotting, sure). Yzerman was infused with defensive play in juniors Dick Todd at Peterborough and throughout the 80s, from Polano to Demers, was double-shifted on checking lines and was a top penalty killer for a very-penalized Detroit team.
Bob McCammon in Vancouver praised Yzerman's well rounded play back in his 155 point season after a 34 minute performance where Yzerman had to kill 47 minutes of Detroit penalties (St. Petersburg Times - Thursday, March 16, 1989).
Paul Maurice mentioned how it was more the perception and circumstances that had changed on how Yzerman was viewed:
"I think he was always a complete player it's just that the circumstances have changed," says Carolina coach Paul Maurice. "Steve Yzerman's emergence as a total player has been seen by the media as a change in his game but I think it's more a case of moving forward. The Detroit Red Wings got to the point where they don't have to rely on him for his offense every night. He's always been a complete player but the team was not as good over the years and had to rely on him every night to provide offense. The Detroit Red Wings have the supporting cast and while Steve Yzerman is a great offensive player, he is also a great defensive player." (http://www.steviey.net/archives90s.htm)
Keenan disputed the popular theory that Yzerman is a much better all-around player now than he was then.
"I wouldn't say he's a different player," Keenan said. "I see a player who's always been an excellent player and a threat. I see a player playing on a better team than he had in the past."
Larionov spoke of how Yzerman checked him in the 1985 World Championships:
Yzerman was always capable of playing defensive hockey, said Igor Larionov, a 37-year-old center from Russia. Larionov recalled playing for the Soviet Union in the world championships of 1985, when Yzerman took a role on Team Canada's checking line. In the medal round, against the famous KLM line, Yzerman held Larionov off the score sheet as Canada won, 3-1. http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sp...ading-man.html
In the 1993 Quaterfinals against the Leafs, Yzerman was pulled aside by then assistant GM Doug Maclean who told him not to play so Defensively but rather concentrate on Offense: "He got so preoccupied with playing defence and worrying about what Doug Gilmour was doing that he was handling the puck like it was a grenade," said MacLean. "I was just trying to build a little confidence in him and told him to stop worrying about checking and being the main man" (Hamilton Spectator - February 7, 1994). In Game Six of that series Yzerman was told by Bryan Murray to match up against Gilmour, and played an incredible game. Though that Game was a huge show of Offense by Paul Coffey's 4 points and Dino Ciccarelli's hatrick, Yzerman was the Player of the Game the way he shut down Gilmour while controlling the Play, chipping in with a Goal and a Assist.
Yzerman went from good defensively and elite offensively to good offensively (despite numerous injuries and much less speed) and elite defensively.
Say what you want about Messier's Harts, but Yzerman was right there.
In 1990, Bourque was probably robbed for the Hart, but why was Yzerman 7th in voting? Mainly because Detroit simply sucked and did not make the playoffs.
Making the playoffs after Gretzky's and Coffey's departure was a huge plus for Messier in the Hart voting department, but was he a "better player" that year? I doubt it.
1989-90 29 Edmonton Oilers NHL 79 45 84 129
1989-90 24 Detroit Red Wings NHL 79 62 65 127
Yzerman put up 2 less points but 17 more goals than Messier, on a much worse team. Detroit had 70 pts that season compared to Edmonton's 90 pts.
Kurri had 93 pts that year with Anderson at 72 and Tikkanen at 63.
Yzerman had Gallant with 80 pts followed by Federko (57 pts) and Burr (56 pts).
In 1992 Messier had 107 pts to Yzerman's 102 pts with Yzerman scoring 10 more goals.
In 1996 Messier was runner-up for the Hart with 99 pts while Yzerman had 95 points and was third that year for the Selke.
Peak and prime, Yzerman (on much worse teams) outscored Messier and was better defensively.
In their best 5 seasons:
281 goals 630 points -- Yzerman
202 goals 560 points -- Messier
79 more goals and 70 more points -- In only 5 seasons!
For 10 years (1984 - 1994):
469 G 653 A 1,122 Pts -- Yzerman: (3rd in goals and points to only Gretzky and Lemieux)
345 G 681 A 1,026 Pts -- Messier: (20th in goals and 6th in points)
Messier has a better playoff record, though they both have 1 Conn Smythe.
Remember that Messier had deep, deep runs in the playoffs all throughout his prime, on great teams; and never played a playoff game after 1997. The bulk of Yzerman's prime were on Red Wings teams that were lucky if they even made the playoffs - and injuries had limited him offensively one he was surrounded with a good team in Detroit, though he was still very effective, even putting in a point-per-game at the age of 41 in the playoffs. His 2002 run at the age of 37 is nothing short of epic.
Oh, and Yzerman never had a Vancouver
I am not going through all this yet again.
I addressed all of your above quotes and points adequately last time.
Yzerman was not good defensively early in his career. He was average.There was a night and day difference between the Yzerman you saw post 95, and the Yzerman you saw putting up 100+ points. A million quotes which were contrast against the few quotes you brought up were brought up. The Keenen quote is particularly funny given how Keenan cut him from the 87 Canada cup team stating "We have enough offensive guys", and chose Sutter over him for the last center spot.
After initially butting heads with new coach Scottie Bowman over the coach's criticism of his defensive skills, Yzerman determinedly worked on his two-way game and eventually won the Selke Trophy as the league's best defensive forward
He was initially a scoring sensation - he had 65 goals and 90 assists in 1988-1989. But in the mid-1990s, after general manager Jim Devellano and later Ken Holland began to improve Detroit's supporting cast, and when Scotty Bowman joined as coach, Yzerman, the team's captain since he was 21, transformed himself into a player known as much for defence as for scoring. The combination worked: the Wings won back-to-back Stanley Cups in 1997 and 1998, and they appear ready to contend again this year
In the early 90's, Steve and the Red Wings experienced many disapointing playoff performances, and the ultimate goal lay far beyond his reach. So Yzerman took steps to become a more rounded player. He gained weight in the off-season and worked hard to become more defensively aware. No more fancy passes and dipsy-doodles in the offensive zone meant less points, but more marks in the win column. Steve has come to be regarded by many to be the best two-way player to ever play the game
Red Wings general manager Ken Holland wasn’t surprised. “He’s one of the two greatest Red Wings ever,” said Holland, who was there to watch Yzerman get inducted, of Yzerman and Gordie Howe. “Steve’s legacy is twofold: his offensive prowess and his commitment to winning. He went from a great offensive player to a great two-way player. He was about team and sacrifice.”
Steve was the first (player) to totally change his game and went from being the offensive guy to being the best two-way centerman in the NHL. Once your leader changes his game for the good of the team, then everybody else follows suit."
This was from a simple combination of "Yzerman two way" in google search.
After scoring 62 goals in 1990, Yzerman gradually and unselfishly traded in gaudy statistics amassed with an all-out offensive style for a two-way role to help the team get ahead. The transformation would eventually lead to his selection as the NHL's best defensive forward in 2000.<
This one man show of offensive fireworks would continue until the 1993-94 season when something happened in Yzerman's career. He sacrificed his own scoring exploits to become one of the best two way players in the history of the game.
Yzerman's "sacrifice" offensively had as much to do with his injuries as it did to his dedication to playing defense.
For the most part you are quoting journalists who simply buy into the "martyrdom" mythos of Steve Yzerman's transformation and Ken Holland who benefits from perpetuating it.
Of course Yzerman became "better" defensively and was used more in that capacity under Bowman - but he was far from "average" defensively prior to that -- his 1st place Selke votes, the direct quotes from coaches and players from the time, his utilization as a checker and penalty killer on not only the Red Wings, but by Canada at the 85 World Championships all attest to that.
Every single one of your quotes comes about a decade or more after the fact, asides from Keenan -- who might have done better and realized how well Yzerman did in a checking role in 85 when canada won a Silver. Keenan's team placed 4th in 1987.
I would like to ask the hockey "historians" here at HFBoards why Messier is always considered much higher than Yzerman on the all-time list, despite Yzerman scoring close to the same amount of goals and points in much less games, putting up much better numbers, winning three Cups and a Conn Smythe without one of the best players ever, being arguably a better leader, staying with one team that he rebuilt from the ground up, putting up the best statistical season other than Gretzky and Lemieux, revamping his game to a defensive forward yet still putting up a PPG in the dead puck era, and his heroics in the 02 playoffs on one knee.
I'd love to know how Messier is a better player than Steve Yzerman.
I think you have to have seen them play to really get why Mess is better then Yzerman. Because he was, he really was no ifs and buts about it.
I think you have to have seen them play to really get why Mess is better then Yzerman. Because he was, he really was no ifs and buts about it.
Despite paling in comparison to Yzerman offensively, Messier did hit a lot of people and spent a lot of time in the penalty box. Those 1,910 penalty minutes really tips the scales in his favor over Yzerman's paltry 440 penalty minutes.
Yzerman's "sacrifice" offensively had as much to do with his injuries as it did to his dedication to playing defense.
For the most part you are quoting journalists who simply buy into the "martyrdom" mythos of Steve Yzerman's transformation and Ken Holland who benefits from perpetuating it.
No, I am quoting journalists who watched and commented on his transformation. A transformation I personally watched, and I agree with their assessment.
Revisionist history on your part. His own Biography quoted:
Quote:
Of course Yzerman became "better" defensively and was used more in that capacity under Bowman - but he was far from "average" defensively prior to that -- his 1st place Selke votes, the direct quotes from coaches and players from the time, his utilization as a checker and penalty killer on not only the Red Wings, but by Canada at the 85 World Championships all attest to that.
His Selke votes pre-Bowman are about as reliable as Gretzky's Selke votes. He received 1 or two votes a few times, almost certainly from2 of the 3 Detroit Journalists involved in the voting at the time, much like Gretzky had a few Selke votes, or Cam Neely.
It says nothing and means nothing. We all know Gretzky was not a Selke caliber player, but he got a few Selke votes. The same applies to Yzerman.
He might have played a nice defensive role like he was asked to in his early career, but his game in the late 90's was all offense. Even when on the penalty kill, he was looking for a break.
He would make dangerous passes, try to dipsy doodle around the opposition and do it himself rather than make the safe play out of the zone. Dangerous passes, which paid off when they worked, but were bad turnovers when they didn't.
His change was night and day after Bowman.
Quote:
Every single one of your quotes comes about a decade or more after the fact, asides from Keenan -- who might have done better and realized how well Yzerman did in a checking role in 85 when canada won a Silver. Keenan's team placed 4th in 1987.
Errr...........I hate to Break this to you............but.........Keenan's team won the 87 Canada cup when he left Yzerman off in favor of the more defensive Brent Sutter.
And those quotes of Yzerman's look real pretty, but when it comes down to it, You can find a few quotes of just about anyone's teammates and coaches praising his defensive play just as easily.
The reason you can't find anything regarding bad defensive play is the same reason you don't see articles on Gretzky or Mario in the 80's beating up their defensive play. It was not the focus.
The journalists however, watched him play, despite your efforts to demean their writings, and their writings are bang on with what I saw. This isn't some "10 years later, they say this" routine from the Journalists. This is something that was being talked about as it happened in the early 90's when Bowman took over, and something everyone witnessed.
You want quotes from teammates?
http://books.google.ca/books?id=r252...Bowman&f=false
"Throughout the season, fans had been saying Yzerman is not what he used to be because he wasn't scoring. Well if these fans watched the complete games with Steve playing, they would realize that Steve had become as good a defensive center as he was an offensive one, and that is what we call a complete player in today's Hockey world."
-Ray Sheppard, in 1995
Or a ton more from the dozens of books out there(Including Yzerman's personally approved Biography)
In the end, it comes down once again to the simple fact that you are an out and out Red wings fan. You always cheer the red wings players in every debate, and you are not being as objective as those who do not cheer for specific teams.
Last edited by Dark Shadows: 08-17-2009 at 01:14 PM.
Playoff points
Messier 295 in 236 games = 1.25 P/G
Yzerman 185 in 196 games = 0.94 P/G
Messier on Cup Winning Teams
19-8-18-26 #3 (Gretzky, Kurri)
18-12-13-25 #5 (Gretzky, Coffey, Kurri, Anderson)
21-12-16-28 #2 (Gretzky)
19-11-23-34 #2 (Gretzky)
22-9-22-31 T-#1 (Simpson)
23-12-18-30 #2 (Leetch)
122-64-110-174 = 1.43 P/G
Yzerman on Cup Winning Teams
20-7-6-13 #4 (Fedorov, Shanahan, Kozlov)
22-6-18-24 #1
23-6-17-23 #1
65-19-41-60 0.92 P/G
Of course you can make arguments of Yzerman being #1 on his team in 2/3 of the cups while Messier was only in 1. Also, you could make an argument of different eras (Detroits Cups in the "Dead Puck" era) and finally that having Gretzky allowed Messier to not play against team's best Defensive guys for Messier's 4 out of 6 Cups.
In terms of regular season, Messier had a 1.07 P/G average for his career, while Yzerman had 1.16. Yzerman retired at the age of 41. Messier retired at the age of 43.
From 1996-97 to the end of his career (7 seasons), Messier only had 2 seasons over 60 points. In that time, Messier averaged 0.69 P/G.
From 1999-00 to the end of his career (5 seasons), Yzerman didn't have one season over 60 points.In that time Yzerman averaged 0.75 P/G.
Messier played 24 seasons, Yzerman played 22 seasons. If you subtract Messier's last two seasons (so both are at 22 seasons), Messier would have 1.15 P/G which is almost identical.
Messier had 6 seasons with 100+ points (1.34 P/G), 3 seasons with 90-99 points (1.29 P/G), and 4 seasons with 80-89 points (1.18 P/G).
Yzerman had 6 seasons with 100+ points (1.57 P/G), 2 seasons with 90-99 points (1.32 P/G), and 4 seasons with 80-89 points (1.18 P/G).
Messier's highest point total was 129.
Yzerman's highest point total was 155.
Based on all of that, I have to go with Mess because if Regular season is almost even (although Yzerman had a higher offensive peak), I have to go with Messier for playoff performance. Playoffs are much more important than regular season and as such should be more meaningful in a comparison like this. The fact that Yzerman had never won a cup during his peak offensively, IMO also hurts him.
Unfortunately, defense and physicality aren't as easily quantified with stats. However, Mess handily beats Yzerman in the physicality department. The defensive side, may be even if you account for Yzerman's 2nd half of his career.
Both players are very close though, that cannot be denied.
Last edited by DubiSnacks17: 08-17-2009 at 02:04 PM.
No, I am quoting journalists who watched and commented on his transformation. A transformation I personally watched, and I agree with their assessment.
10+ years after the fact... did you ensure those journalists were covering Yzerman in the 80s?
Quote:
His Selke votes pre-Bowman are about as reliable as Gretzky's Selke votes. He received 1 or two votes a few times, almost certainly from2 of the 3 Detroit Journalists involved in the voting at the time, much like Gretzky had a few Selke votes, or Cam Neely.
Did they get 1st place votes? No.
Quote:
It says nothing and means nothing. We all know Gretzky was not a Selke caliber player, but he got a few Selke votes. The same applies to Yzerman.
Yzerman was as much of a "selke candidate" as Joe Sakic was in 2001. Neither should be selke candidates but both were good, better than average defensively.
Quote:
He might have played a nice defensive role like he was asked to in his early career, but his game in the late 90's was all offense. Even when on the penalty kill, he was looking for a break.
He would make dangerous passes, try to dipsy doodle around the opposition and do it himself rather than make the safe play out of the zone. Dangerous passes, which paid off when they worked, but were bad turnovers when they didn't.
Yzerman, at the time, would play full shifts on the penalty kill... actually killing penalties -- that Detroit team needed him to. Unlike a Gretzky or Lemieux who would be thrown on the PK for the remaining few seconds on the chance for a breakaway.
Quote:
His change was night and day after Bowman.
Going from "good" defensively to "elite" is a big change -- I am not contesting that.
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And those quotes of Yzerman's look real pretty, but when it comes down to it, You can find a few quotes of just about anyone's teammates and coaches praising his defensive play just as easily.
I was quoting opposing coaches and players from the time.
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The reason you can't find anything regarding bad defensive play is the same reason you don't see articles on Gretzky or Mario in the 80's beating up their defensive play. It was not the focus.
I also do not see anything praising their defensive play, or first-place Selke votes -- I do with Yzerman. I also watched them play. Yzerman was good defensively in the 80s and was used in that capacity much more often than Gretzky and Lemieux. I am not being a "homer" in stating that.
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The journalists however, watched him play, despite your efforts to demean their writings, and their writings are bang on with what I saw. This isn't some "10 years later, they say this" routine from the Journalists. This is something that was being talked about as it happened in the early 90's when Bowman took over, and something everyone witnessed.
It is exaggerrated. Yzerman's "transformation" was not overnight and it was not to the degree it is talked about now.
His offense went down.
His defense went up.
Period.
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You want quotes from teammates?
http://books.google.ca/books?id=r252...Bowman&f=false
"Throughout the season, fans had been saying Yzerman is not what he used to be because he wasn't scoring. Well if these fans watched the complete games with Steve playing, they would realize that Steve had become as good a defensive center as he was an offensive one, and that is what we call a complete player in today's Hockey world."
-Ray Sheppard, in 1995
Makes sense -- offense goes down, defense up = equilibrium.
That does not mean he was not good defensively earlier in his career.
I am also reminded that Yzerman worshipped Trottier growing up and patterned his game after him. Was Trottier "all-offense"?
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In the end, it comes down once again to the simple fact that you are an out and out Red wings fan. You always cheer the red wings players in every debate, and you are not being as objective as those who do not cheer for specific teams.
No, it comes down to I simply know more about Red Wings players and simply spot-pick arguments I feel knowledgeable about.
Yzerman was "much better" defensively than many give him credit for in the 80s and early 90s.
That does not mean he should have been up for a Selke (though he would have fared much better with the way voting was in the 90s), but that I simply take issue with the "night and day" comparisons when it comes to Yzerman and defense.
I don't think Messier ever had anything on Yzerman defensively (the Red Wings and Oilers were my favorite teams in the 80s), and Yzerman was certainly better defensively than Messier later in their careers. This coupled with Yzerman's significant edge offensively as well as a better peak and prime should serve to counter-balance Messier's clear edge in the playoffs.
My point is that Messier being ahead of Yzerman "all-time" should not be simply accepted and that there is an argument for Yzerman ahead of him -- and I have attempted to back that up. Many seem to simply "count Harts" when it comes to putting Messier ahead.
They are very close. I favor Yzerman now, but I used to slot Messier above him earlier. In fact, were I to make a list, they would be back to back. Both among my favorite players ever.
The discussion about Yzerman's defensive play and his transition is interesting, and I have always shared the sentiment that Yzerman was good Defensively in his Offensive prime from his play.
You can even find quite a bit of evidence about it from articles at the time (a quick search brought up Frank Orr in the Toronto Star writing about Jacques Demers and Yzerman revitalizing the Red Wings in 1987 - "Yzerman leads the revitalized Wings in scoring but is playing a strong all-round game. He gives the credit for the upturn to Demers, who moved over from St. Louis Blues and ended the chaos and upheaval that had kept the team in turmoil last season.")
The difference in Yzerman post-Bowman in my analysis of things, is the system the Red Wings played in and I think that might have a lot to do with the perception. Yzerman always had good defensive skills, but especially during the Red Wings struggles in the time before Bowman, he was used primarily as an Offensive weapon, and rightfully so. Yzerman loved to play up high, that's the reason he could get a lot of goals, though this kind of play was hard to fit into Bowman's more conservative system (recall Murray and Bowman struggling to resolve Detroit's center logjam in the early 1990's - a solution that worked fairly well was putting Primeau, who liked to play low, on Yzerman's wing for awhile).
The system argument is lent credence as Bowman also criticized Fedorov periodically for not playing the system after his breakout season offensively all the way up to 2002 and Fedorov was excellent defensively.. Bowman told Fedorov to be selfish when Yzerman was out with injury in 1993-1994 and Fedorov exploded with the increased icetime and more offensive role. But when Yzerman came back he was reeled in, Yzerman outscored Fedorov that season when they played together.
By the time Bowman came on board, the Red Wings were not a one man team, and at the same time, Yzerman suffered back injuries that never left him the same. Even if he wanted to he could not go and score all the points he could anymore, so a better use of Yzerman
The same thing applies to Messier. Messier in 1984 was amazing in shutting down the opposition in the Playoffs, he played better defense than even Kurri, probably why he was able to snag the Smythe. Compare with Messier in the late 1980's. He is clearly playing a more offensive game, as he is needed more to score.
Watch the difference in play style of Yzerman in 1987 and 1988 against Edmonton to see he was utilized differently. In 1987 he was noted for his faceoff prowess and his role on the penalty kill which led to Edmonton needing to pull of tightly fought victories. In 1988 - after he had broken out offensively in the regular season - he played a much more attacking style, taking the play to Edmonton's zone more often (granted he was coming off injury and so probably would have a harder time checking the Oilers anyway).
Neither Yzerman or Messier were ever able to play the two way game of say Kurri or Clarke, but then again, there are factors that led to this. Clarke was a great playmaker, but his goal scoring is average - he never topped 30 goals. Indeed, given that to score a lot of goals, it is generally necessary to position yourself deeper in the offensive zone, it will be harder to get yourself back to play defensively.
Kurri is unique as being the best to combine goal scoring with amazing defensive play, but then again, the reason he was probably able to do that was (along with being blessed with an amazing shot, great skating, and incredible intelligence and positioning) playing with Gretzky. Kurri without Gretzky in 1988-1989 took on a much more playmaking role, and when he was called upon to be the Oiler's main weapon, he was simply not as effective defensively (his centers Mark Lamb and Jimmy Carson were also not really a help). It was clearly visible, yet that was among Kurri's greatest seasons ever.
By the later 1990's, Yzerman was clearly playing more conservatively, both because that was the system now in favor all over the league, and also because he was not in his prime. This obviously led him to play better defense than he ever did when he was scoring 100 points. But I still cannot forget the fact that he was good defensively when was scoring a lot, just not at the same level. To me, Yzerman's decline offensively was a bigger factor than his improvement defensively in his later years.
10+ years after the fact... did you ensure those journalists were covering Yzerman in the 80s?
I don't need to. I personally watched him(He was one of my favorite players), and their coverage in those articles mirrors what I saw with my own two eyes.
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Did they get 1st place votes? No.
You are attempting to use the fact that he received a single 1st place vote out of 60+ voters in 87-88(Almost certainly from one of the 3 red wings journalist) and a single 1st place vote in 88-89(Same story) as a crucible for your argument. Those votes mean next to nothing. They are biased. If a player does not get over 3 votes in any category(Back when each team had roughly 3 journalists), then it means nothing to me or anyone with sense and is not a groundbreaking reason for thinking he was a defensive master.
This is like calling a jalopy a corvette.
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Yzerman was as much of a "selke candidate" as Joe Sakic was in 2001. Neither should be selke candidates but both were good, better than average defensively.
Later in his career maybe. Never early in his career. Sakic in 2001 was outstanding, and only the later incarnations of Yzerman compare defensively.
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Yzerman, at the time, would play full shifts on the penalty kill... actually killing penalties -- that Detroit team needed him to. Unlike a Gretzky or Lemieux who would be thrown on the PK for the remaining few seconds on the chance for a breakaway.
Certainly. However, Lemieux played more than "The last few seconds" on the penalty kill. As did Gretzky. They did not play as much as Yzerman, but they played much more than "The remaining few seconds".
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Going from "good" defensively to "elite" is a big change -- I am not contesting that.
Average to elite is the better word.
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I was quoting opposing coaches and players from the time.
Where? I see quotes from teammates and people from within his organization years after the fact.
Larionov made those comments in the last 10 years after being his teammate for many years.
Bob McCammon was talking about 1 game against a weaker starless team like Vancouver.
Paul Maurice made those comments recently, giving props to Yzerman in his later years, as did Keenan. Keenan obviously thought differently at the time, opting for Brent Sutter over Yzerman for reasons of defensive play, which he made clear. Trying to be graceful after a man retires will change what many people say. Nobody is going to come out during Yzerman's retirement and talk about his faults.
The Doug Maclean comment is cute but misleading. Maclean made those comments to defend Yzerman after 3 straight losses where Yzerman was effectively shut down by Gilmour, not vice versa. His job was to cover Gilmour in those 3 games and Gilmour scored a ton of points.
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I also do not see anything praising their defensive play, or first-place Selke votes -- I do with Yzerman. I also watched them play. Yzerman was good defensively in the 80s and was used in that capacity much more often than Gretzky and Lemieux. I am not being a "homer" in stating that.
Again with the individual single first place votes given by his own journalists
Between the years of 1984-85 and 1994-95, from roughly 60 voters a year with 3 votes each(which runs around 1800 votes)the following players received the following amount of Selke votes, in order of 1st, 2nd, 3rd:
Wayne Gretzky: 0-1-2
Steve Yzerman: 2-1-0
Mark Messier: 5-3-1
Cam Neely: 1-1-2
Yzerman received 3 votes out of around 1800 in 10 years.
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It is exaggerrated. Yzerman's "transformation" was not overnight and it was not to the degree it is talked about now.
His offense went down.
His defense went up.
Period.
The biggest visible change came with Bowman's introduction of the Left wing Lock in the mid 90's(This is covered clearly in Yzerman's Biography)
Nobody said it was "overnight", but there was a dramatic change when Bowman forced it.
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Makes sense -- offense goes down, defense up = equilibrium.
That does not mean he was not good defensively earlier in his career.
He wasn't. Watched him play.
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I am also reminded that Yzerman worshipped Trottier growing up and patterned his game after him. Was Trottier "all-offense"?
Yet his game was nothing like Trottier's. Imagine that. They were completely different players.
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No, it comes down to I simply know more about Red Wings players and simply spot-pick arguments I feel knowledgeable about.
I happen to know a ton about them too. And I am giving a completely unattached unbiased opinion. You are not.
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Yzerman was "much better" defensively than many give him credit for in the 80s and early 90s.
That does not mean he should have been up for a Selke (though he would have fared much better with the way voting was in the 90s), but that I simply take issue with the "night and day" comparisons when it comes to Yzerman and defense.
It was in the early 90's that two way high scoring forwards like Francis and Gilmour and Fedorov were getting Selke recognition(And they were getting it before the 90's as well). In the early 90's, Yzerman was still scoring big, but was not getting any Selke votes.
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I don't think Messier ever had anything on Yzerman defensively (the Red Wings and Oilers were my favorite teams in the 80s), and Yzerman was certainly better defensively than Messier later in their careers. This coupled with Yzerman's significant edge offensively as well as a better peak and prime should serve to counter-balance Messier's clear edge in the playoffs.
In the 80's? Messier was better defensively than Yzerman. However, it should be noted that I do not think Messier was that great defensively either.
Later in his career, obviously Yzerman was better defensively.
Since you love those individual 1st place Selke votes so much, you probably disagree with the fact that Messier severely outpoints Yzerman between 85-95 in Selke votes.
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My point is that Messier being ahead of Yzerman "all-time" should not be simply accepted and that there is an argument for Yzerman ahead of him -- and I have attempted to back that up. Many seem to simply "count Harts" when it comes to putting Messier ahead.
And many more build solid cases for Messier which stand up better. You and another poster named Poise seem to be Yzerman's champions when it comes to this discussion.
I think poise's post was well-argumented. He saw the players play and used no statistics to support his claim. I don't understand how people are so narrow-minded here. It's possible to have different opinions even if you are well-educated about the subject.
I think poise's post was well-argumented. He saw the players play and used no statistics to support his claim. I don't understand how people are so narrow-minded here. It's possible to have different opinions even if you are well-educated about the subject.
I was merely pointing out that whenever this discussion comes up, Poise is always the first guy(Usually) I am debating with regarding how good he thought Yzerman and Coffey were defensively in the 80's.
And many more build solid cases for Messier which stand up better. You and another poster named Poise seem to be Yzerman's champions when it comes to this discussion.
Edit: LOL speak of the devil.
I say "good" defensively, you say "average" -- whatever -- Yzerman was clearly recognized for his defensive play in the 80s and early 90s (as opposed to the other ultra-high points scorers at the time, who were not even "average" defensively), and was utilized in that role, both on the Red Wings and in international play.
Point simply being, this is not cherry-picking Pavel Bure we are talking about where Messier can make up a severe gap in offensive play (which it is) with his all-around play. You value peak performance more than many others -- 1 year, 3 years, 5 years, 10 years -- you name it, Yzerman has outperformed him, and on worse teams to boot. But many have Messier ahead.
Why? It's a good question.
Playoffs? Sure, Messier had numerous great runs... but you are not comparing him to Dionne, but instead someone who also has a Conn Smythe and numerous great playoff performances as well. Messier does not "blow away" Yzerman in the playoffs.
Hart voting? Messier beats Yzerman in Hart voting, but I do not think he had much better seasons, if at all, than Yzerman in those Hart years -- and Messier certainly has nothing on Yzerman's 89 season.
I'm not sure Messier should be ahead of both Sakic and Yzerman.... yet most seem to take it for granted. I think that is worth being questioned.
Last edited by RabbinsDuck: 08-17-2009 at 03:58 PM.
In my mind, a lot of Messier's Hart recognition from earlier in his career is cancelled out by what a cancer/floater he became in his last 7 years in the league. The guy got caught up in the myth of his own greatness after 1994. I have never seen a more self-centered, arrogant, full-of-himself player than the Messier who suited up for Vancouver from 1997-2000.
So, yeah, I rate Yzerman a fair bit higher than Messier. Yzerman was a major asset to his teams from the start of his career until his final game. Messier was not.
Yzerman didn't twice pull rank to get his head coach fired, either.
