Mark Messier vs. Bernie Geoffrion

[Triffy]

I ranked Messier and Geoffrion one after the other in the HOH Top 100 project initial list. I felt they are comparable. They both played on dynasty teams and are known for their playoff heroics. Messier is usually ranked a lot higher. I thought that’s wrong. So I decided to take a closer look at them. My estimation was that they would come out quite similar.

REGULAR SEASON

POINTS (Top 10)

Geoffrion 7 times (1, 1, 4, 6, 6, 7, 7)

Messier 6 times (2, 3, 5, 5, 7, 10)

Messier’s career obviously overlapped with both Gretzky and Lemieux. In 1990 Messier was 2nd only to Gretzky. It must be noted, though, that Geoffrion had to compete against in-his-prime Gordie Howe all of his career. And even if we point out the famous fact that Boom Boom won his first scoring title only by one point (he beat the Rocket who played 3 less games), he still comes ahead in my opinion.

GOAL SCORING

Geoffrion 8 times (1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 5, 8, 9)

Messier 4 times (8, 9, 9, 9)

No comments needed. Geoffrion wins.

PLAYMAKING

Geoffrion 5 times (6, 6, 6, 7, 10)

Messier 6 times (2, 3, 5, 6, 6, 8)

Messier was the better playmaker.

CONCLUSIONS

Geoffrion was the better offensive player. He was easily the better goal-scorer and his playmaking was good enough to help him win two scoring titles, something Messier was unable to do during his long and succesful career.
 
PLAYOFFS

Both won 6 Stanley Cups. Messier did it in two teams. Or three, if you consider the Oilers without Gretzky a different team from the Oilers with Gretzky. That’s of course a huge plus for Messier. He was able to win in different conditions. He found a way to win. That’s why he’s considered one of the greatest leaders in the sport’s history. But you can’t fault Geoffrion for being a key part of the greatest team ever assembled.

Let’s take a look at both player’s 6 Stanley Cup runs.

Geoffrion

1952-53: Boom Boom was the leading scorer of the Canadiens with 10 points in 12 games. The Rocket was second with 8 points and Lach 3rd with 7 points.

1955-56: Geoffrion, The Rocket and Olmstead had 14 points in 10 games. Beliveau was the leading scorer with incredible 19 points (12 goals).

1956-57: If Beliveau’s 19 points was incredible, the same can be said for Boom Boom’s 11 goals and 18 points in 10 games. Beliveau was now 2nd with 12 points and the Rocket 3rd with 11 points.

1957-58: Geoffrion placed 3rd with 11 points behind Beliveau (12 pts) and Maurice Richard (15 pts).

1958-59: Again Geoffrion placed 3rd with 13 points with 11 games. Only Dickie Moore (17 pts) and a surprise name Marcel Bonin (15 pts) scored more.

1959-60: The Pocket Rocket and Geoffrion both had team-leading 12 points in an eight-game run. Moore was 3rd with 10 points.

Geoffrion contributed to 6 Stanley Cup winning teams greatly. He lead the team in points 3 times, was 2nd once and 3rd twice. After this breakdown it’s not a surprise to find out that Geoffrion was the leading playoff scorer (total points and points average) from 1956 to 1960 when the Habs won 5 consecutive Stanley Cups. Source. It’d be safe to say that Geoffrion would have at least one Conn Smythe trophy had it existed when he played in the NHL.

Messier

1983-84: Messier is 3rd with 26 points in 22 games, only behind Gretzky (35 pts) and Kurri (28 pts). However, it was Messier who was named as the most valuable player in the playoffs.

1984-85: Messier is 5th behind Gretzky, Coffey, Kurri and Anderson.

1986-87: Messier is 2nd with 28 points in 21 games. Gretzky led the team with 34 points.

1987-88: Again it was Gretzky who led the team, this time with 43 points. Messier was 2nd with 34 points in 19 games.

1989-90: Now the Oilers had to survive without Gretzky. They did. Craig Simpson and Messier both had 31 points in 22 games to lead the team.

1993-94: Brian Leetch was the leading scorer for the Rangers with his epic display. The defenseman had 34 points in 23 games. Messier was 2nd with 30 points.

Also Messier contributed consistently to winning. 4 times he was at least 2nd in scoring. Twice he was 2nd to only Gretzky. His Conn Smythe trophy seems quite controversial but as I haven’t seen the games, I’m not in the position to critizice the selection.

CONCLUSIONS

Their playoff legacies from their Stanley Cup runs are quite equal. Boom Boom led the team in scoring 3 times. Had the award existed, he would have been awarded the Conn Smythe trophy at least once, in 1957. Messier was 2nd to Gretzky twice and he was awarded the Conn Smythe trophy in 1984 when he was 3rd in scoring. Boom Boom was the best playoff scorer of the greatest team ever. Messier was a thriving force in different conditions. If there’s a difference, it’s minimal. I’ll call it a wash.

INTANGIBLES

Because I haven’t seen the two play in their primes, I’m not the best person to talk about their playing styles. But as far as I know, neither was great defensively. Messier had the physical element in his game and he is widely regarded as one of the greatest leader in sports history. Boom Boom has been said to have perfected the slap shot, so he was sort of an innovator. But the intangibles are on Messier’s side.

OVERALL

Geoffrion was the better offensive player. Both were one of the greatest playoff performers of their time. Messier brought more to the table.

Looks like my estimation was correct. Either way, it’s very close. Contrary to the consensus, I would actually give the edge to Geoffrion because of his goal scoring dominance over Messier.

Now it would be interesting if some of you could give extra information regarding their roles on their teams. For example, whether they played first or second line minutes and how much PP times they got.

[Canadiens1958]

Bernie Geoffrion was one of the leading contributors to the six Stanley Cups won by the Montreal Canadiens between 1951 and 1960 but his contributions have to be put in context.

Bernie Geoffrion was the right winger on the Jean Beliveau line and played the right point on the vaunted Canadiens powerplay with Doug Harvey usually playing the left point.

In terms of scoring this meant that Geoffrion had extra playing time because he would be on the point for most if not all of the power play whereas the forwards rotated somewhat.

Another consideration is that Bernie Geoffrion's regular season numbers held-up because he was a constant on the Jean Beliveau line. After his fifty goal season - 1960-61, which also produced his second scoring title his production dropped significantly at the start of the 1961-62 season when Jean Beliveau had to miss the first twenty-seven games with a knee injury. Playing with Ralph Backstrom or the other centers affected his game negatively while not elevating the play of his new linemates.

Also during the five seasons between 1955/56 and 1959/60 Bernie Geoffrion missed a total of 90 games yet the Canadiens power play and offense did not miss a beat.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...geoffbe01.html

An interestin comment about Bernie Geoffrion and his leadership attributes may be obtained towards the bottom of the linked Red Fisher article - below, when the election of Jean Beliveau as team captain is discussed.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=405560

Revealing.

The numerical comparison with Mark Messier fails to take into account the advantage in powerplay time that Bernie Geoffrion enjoyed.

Also readers should consider that Mark Messier stepped up and led the Oilers to a cup after Wayne Gretzky left and then led the NY Rangers to a cup victory as well.

[Hockey Outsider]

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958

Also readers should consider that Mark Messier stepped up and led the Oilers to a cup after Wayne Gretzky left and then led the NY Rangers to a cup victory as well.

To build on this, Messier was consistently viewed as the more valuable player to his team. Geoffrion only led his team in scoring twice in his career; Messier led his team in scoring five times (I think), was a more physical, likely was better defensively, and was (for most of his career) considered an excellent leader.

Geoffrion won the Hart in 1961 but was never again a serious contender for the trophy. In contrast, Messier won the Hart in 1990 and 1992. He was also runner-up to an unbelievably dominant Lemieux in 1996. Furthermore Messier finished 9th in 1987. To put that into context, since 1947, only twenty players have at least three top-three years in Hart voting.

[Ogopogo]

I have Messier as #35 all-time among non-goalies. Geoffrion is #46.

[Triffy]

It's getting late here, but here's something quickly. I didn't compare their Hart records for two reasons. First, I knew someone would post them here anyway and second because Geoffrion played on a team full of superstars. It's impossible to receive any significant Hart support if you are a second line winger, which he was for the first part of his career. No one would blame him for being lesser to the Rocket. And besides that, he was playing with the best goalie, the best center and the best defenseman of his era. And he still managed to win the Hart once.

Of course it would be wrong to completely brush away the fact that Messier won the Hart trophy twice and was a runner-up to Mario. But the players were in different environments. A top 40 player won't stand out in Hart voting in the teams Boom Boom played in. The players who stood out in the Hart voting in those teams year after year (Beliveau? Harvey? too lazy to check out) are top 10 players.

Thank you C1958 for the insightful post.

[Big Phil]

Boom Boom was the better goal scorer. That's about where it ends. Messier was better defensively, physically, and a better playmaker. Messier had a lot of great seasons. You can call his 1990 Hart and Geoffrion's '61 Hart a wash. But then there's his '92 Hart.

All around Messier was more central to his teams success even though Boom was still pretty darn good when push came to shove as well. Messier is just in an elite class, that's all. There are some observers who would place him as a top 10 player of all time. I have him at #15 somewhere. I wouldn't put Geoffrion anywhere near there. Overall a GM worth his salt picks Messier over Boom Boom

[MXD]

Geoffrion is obviously the better goalscorer of the two : however, his "intangibles and off-the-ice" contributions were more...

Well, off the ice.

I really prefer the Messier/H.Richard comparison. Messier was pretty much a rich-man Richard.

[ushvinder]

Originally Posted by MXD

Geoffrion is obviously the better goalscorer of the two : however, his "intangibles and off-the-ice" contributions were more...

Well, off the ice.

I really prefer the Messier/H.Richard comparison. Messier was pretty much a rich-man Richard.

Messier has 296 playoff points in 236 games. Henri Richard has 129 playoff points in 180 games. Even if you use adjusted stats, Messier comes out well ahead.

[MXD]

Originally Posted by ushvinder

Messier has 296 playoff points in 236 games. Henri Richard has 129 playoff points in 180 games. Even if you use adjusted stats, Messier comes out well ahead.

...I fail to see how that fact doesn't make Messier a rich-man Richard.

[Dennis Bonvie]

This looks like an arguement where the numbers betray reality. I just don't see Boom Boom at the same level as Messier.

[Triffy]

Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie

This looks like an arguement where the numbers betray reality. I just don't see Boom Boom at the same level as Messier.

You just don't see him at the same level? Did you see both play? Or what do you mean?

I think most of us have a bright image of all the players worth mentioning in the top 100 project. And sometimes we let that fool ourselves. Messier's so widely considered one of the very greats in the sport that comparing him to Geoffrion might sound absurd. But I think I just posted a neutral comparison between the players. The results indicated that Geoffrion was likely the better offensive player. And his playoff production isn't any worse than Messier's. Even if Messier's the better defensive player and was more physical, I don't understand the 15 spot gap there was between the two players on the last list.

If you think the gap is fair, please make an argument for it. I'm an open minded person and I've got nothing against Messier or any other hockey player. I'm here to learn. It'd be great to hear what made Messier so special because the numbers I've seen don't support it.

[Canadiens1958]

Originally Posted by Triffy

You just don't see him at the same level? Did you see both play? Or what do you mean?

I think most of us have a bright image of all the players worth mentioning in the top 100 project. And sometimes we let that fool ourselves. Messier's so widely considered one of the very greats in the sport that comparing him to Geoffrion might sound absurd. But I think I just posted a neutral comparison between the players. The results indicated that Geoffrion was likely the better offensive player. And his playoff production isn't any worse than Messier's. Even if Messier's the better defensive player and was more physical, I don't understand the 15 spot gap there was between the two players on the last list.

If you think the gap is fair, please make an argument for it. I'm an open minded person and I've got nothing against Messier or any other hockey player. I'm here to learn. It'd be great to hear what made Messier so special because the numbers I've seen don't support it.

Saw both play many times. Both were great players, from different eras, with distinct and different skills. Both managed to integrate their talents and efforts into the team concept as required with equal results contributing to six Stanley Cup Championships each.

As for choosing between the two it comes down to perceptions, preferences and interpretations. From a team standpoint it would come down to specific needs when the various strengths and weaknesses are taken into account.

[lextune]

Originally Posted by Triffy

Even if Messier's the better defensive player and was more physical, I don't understand the 15 spot gap there was between the two players on the last list.

15 spots is not that big a distance.

Most of us agree that the list has sections. That is to say, the distance between 1-4 and 20-25 for instance, is probably greater than the distance between 25 and 50.

[ushvinder]

Messier ranks higher because his playoff production didn't change when Gretzky left. All of Bernie's stats were during the dynasty years. I don't think he's necessarily the better offensive player either, Messier has many seasons near the top 10, but he got injured. Messier has recieved more hart trophy shares.

[Dark Shadows]

Originally Posted by ushvinder

Messier ranks higher because his playoff production didn't change when Gretzky left. All of Bernie's stats were during the dynasty years. I don't think he's necessarily the better offensive player either, Messier has many seasons near the top 10, but he got injured. Messier has recieved more hart trophy shares.

All of these points have already been addressed.

[Dennis Bonvie]

Originally Posted by Triffy

You just don't see him at the same level? Did you see both play? Or what do you mean?

I think most of us have a bright image of all the players worth mentioning in the top 100 project. And sometimes we let that fool ourselves. Messier's so widely considered one of the very greats in the sport that comparing him to Geoffrion might sound absurd. But I think I just posted a neutral comparison between the players. The results indicated that Geoffrion was likely the better offensive player. And his playoff production isn't any worse than Messier's. Even if Messier's the better defensive player and was more physical, I don't understand the 15 spot gap there was between the two players on the last list.

If you think the gap is fair, please make an argument for it. I'm an open minded person and I've got nothing against Messier or any other hockey player. I'm here to learn. It'd be great to hear what made Messier so special because the numbers I've seen don't support it.

I didn't see much of Geoffrion. Saw a lot of Messier. Certainly Messier was the leader of the Oilers. Both were All-Star wingers, but Messier was also an All-Star center. Maybe Canadiens1958 can speak to the possiblilty of Boom Boom being able to handle playing center at all, let alone at an all-star level. Messier was a much better playmaker and defender. Messier really didn't play with the same quality of linemates that Geoffrion did during his prime. If the numbers are that close, fine. But I don't think they are real close as players. Just my opinion.

[Canadiens1958]

Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie

I didn't see much of Geoffrion. Saw a lot of Messier. Certainly Messier was the leader of the Oilers. Both were All-Star wingers, but Messier was also an All-Star center. Maybe Canadiens1958 can speak to the possiblilty of Boom Boom being able to handle playing center at all, let alone at an all-star level. Messier was a much better playmaker and defender. Messier really didn't play with the same quality of linemates that Geoffrion did during his prime. If the numbers are that close, fine. But I don't think they are real close as players. Just my opinion.

Geoffrion did not have the skill set to play center. Skating was a tad deficient to play center, lacking the lateral movement.