I doubt Leino will make the team. He can't play defense and has been struggling big time as of late.
However, one of the constant problems with the Finnish NT has been the lack of offensive talent. Not taking Leino in means yet another grinder in the lineup. There are pretty even ups and downs in picking him into the team and leaving him out of it.
Quote:
Mikko Lehtonen over Sami Lepisto?
Both are quite even-role players, good allaround d-men who can move the puck and play some shutdown defense too. While Lepistö would be my personal preference of these two as well, we're dealing with matters of taste here.
Quote:
Sami Kapanen and Mika Pyorälä?
There are about a dozen guys battling those fourth-line winger and extra forward slots, we have some crazy depth there. Apart from J.Ruutu, none of these candidates have put up anything that would put them above others in the season so far. So again, matters of taste.
All in all, while that in some effects differs from the views of this individual, Jääkiekkolehti is mostly on the right track. They're aware of the stuff that is granted by now (unlike the so-called "foreign experts") and even their most questionable picks manage to fall within the limits of plausible.
I'm a Finnish Canadian living in Toronto. Just recieved November's
issue of the Finnish ice hockey magazine (Jääkiekko).
I'm not sure if you are familiar with Kiekkolehti, but IMO it gives a lot better picture of Finnish hockey than Jääkiekkolehti. Kiekkolehti is issued 30 times a year. Some info here
Quote:
Originally Posted by illone84
What are your thoughts?
I'm not feeling this one either.
I doubt Leino will make the team. He can't play defense and has been struggling big time as of late.
Mikko Lehtonen over Sami Lepisto?
Sami Kapanen and Mika Pyorälä?
Some thoughts:
IMO Saku Koivu, Sami Kapanen and Jere Lehtinen have no business of being in the team; they are way past their prime. It would be a good time to give some responsibility to younger players. I also don't like Ville Leino’s chances of making the team as he's too slow for Finland's style of play. Mikko Lehtonen has been out for a long time because of personal reasons, so it's strange that his name is in the roster. It’s also laughable that Jarkko Ruutu is placed as a 13th forward when the roster is otherwise full of skinny players.
My roster would be something like this, if all would be healthy:
Forwards:
Jussi Jokinen - Mikko Koivu - Niklas Hagman
Tuomo Ruutu - Olli Jokinen - Teemu Selänne
Valtteri Filppula - Niko Kapanen - Antti Miettinen
Sean Bergenheim - Petteri Nokelainen - Jarkko Ruutu
Mika Pyörälä/Lauri Korpikoski
- 1st and 2nd lines are made out of our top forwards in the NHL.
- 3rd line with some offensive upside and will give some resting time to the top lines.
- A true 4th line with a lot of energy.
Defensemen:
Kimmo Timonen - Sami Salo
Joni Pitkänen - Ville Koistinen
Toni Lydman - Sami Lepistö
Ossi Väänänen/Anssi Salmela/Lasse Kukkonen
- Clearly the weakest part of our team, Hopefully Timonen and Pitkänen are in top form.
Goalies:
Miikka Kiprusoff
Niklas Bäckström
Antero Niittymäki/Pekka Rinne
Have seen the lists of goalies on both the NHL and Jaakiekko Lehti sites but was wondering if the Finns might not go with two veterans and a youngster like Tuukka Rask to set themselves up for the future?
Also, while I'd imagine Kiprusoff and Backstrom are favorites coming off of last year, it seems that Niittymaki is playing better than both of them for a Tampa Bay team that is not considered to be as talented as some of the others. With his performance in 2006, shouldn't he garner more attention than he has?
And another name, I realize this is a bit of a darkhorse but one who has been part of the team Finland program, who would seem to merit some consideration, would seem to be Fredrik Norrena. More than Kiprusoff and Backstrom, he would seem more amenable to being the number two if indeed Niittymaki is the starter. And it seems he's played well thus far in Sweden.
Admittedly, I'm glad that the decision is not mine to make. Seems like a very tough one.
Forwards:
Jussi Jokinen - Mikko Koivu - Niklas Hagman
Tuomo Ruutu - Olli Jokinen - Teemu Selänne
Valtteri Filppula - Niko Kapanen - Antti Miettinen
Sean Bergenheim - Petteri Nokelainen - Jarkko Ruutu
Mika Pyörälä/Lauri Korpikoski
- 1st and 2nd lines are made out of our top forwards in the NHL.
- 3rd line with some offensive upside and will give some resting time to the top lines.
- A true 4th line with a lot of energy.
Have a hard time imagining Saku Koivu not on Team Finland if he wants to play and if he's healthy. Though I have to admit, the forwards you have on the top two lines are impressive. I think Pyorala's stock has really risen in the early part of the NHL season as the Flyers have used him quite a bit. Would think that if Korpikoski were selected they'd try and put him in more of a scorer's role than he's been in thus far - and it seems like he might be lost in the numbers shuffle a bit in Phoenix. I'm also curious as to whether you think New Jersey's Ilkka Pikkarainen might fit into one of the checking line roles moreso than some of the others?
Another veteran not mentioned on your list is Ville Peltonen. While he is no longer playing in the NHL, I find it hard to believe that he would not be considered if he's interested in playing.
Defensemen:
Kimmo Timonen - Sami Salo
Joni Pitkänen - Ville Koistinen
Toni Lydman - Sami Lepistö
Ossi Väänänen/Anssi Salmela/Lasse Kukkonen
- Clearly the weakest part of our team, Hopefully Timonen and Pitkänen are in top form.
Tend to agree with the NHL writer in terms of Petteri Nummelin. While not a prototypical NHL defensemen, his game seems to fit international play and could see why they'd include him.
Not sure I see the weakness you do - at least as far as the top four are concerned - especially Timonen, Sallo and Lydman.
It's interesting that none of the SM-Liiga guys (Seikola, Soderholm, Heiskanen) are mentioned - although admittedly the talent pool of the guys playing outside of Finland is quite large.
They tried Jokinen and Selänne at 2008 Worlds. Didn't click. If Saku is out, I'm thinking they're going to put Teemu with Mikko and Tuomo. Hagman has some experience with OJ, so he's a better fit there. Otherwise it's a fairly good lineup.
EDIT: Okay, it's not, after all. I'd like to know why you broke up Mikko Koivu and Tuomo Ruutu, who have Koivu-Selänne -like chemistry in the NT that has been showing up in international competition every time they've been slapped together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormentor
Joni Pitkänen - Ville Koistinen
These are both heavily offensive d-men who need a good shutdown guy beside them not to become liabilities. Hit Lydman up with Pitkänen and give Koistinen a specialist role, if you wish to include him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Piscotta
Tend to agree with the NHL writer in terms of Petteri Nummelin. While not a prototypical NHL defensemen, his game seems to fit international play and could see why they'd include him.
That's exactly why - the olympics are played in NHL-sized box. Nummelin needs a lot of space around him to be productive and that's why he usually shines in international competition. Since the top countries are going to be running NHL-heavy rosters in a narrow rink, there's a risk he's going to become another liability.
Have seen the lists of goalies on both the NHL and Jaakiekko Lehti sites but was wondering if the Finns might not go with two veterans and a youngster like Tuukka Rask to set themselves up for the future?
It's fairly certain that Miikka Kiprusoff doesn't want to be a part of the team unless they guarantee him the starting job, so pretty much all is uncertain at the moment.
1st and 2nd goalie will probably be chosen from the group of Miikka Kiprusoff, Niklas Bäckström, Antero Niittymäki and Pekka Rinne. The 3rd goalie might very well be Tuukka Rask or maybe Antti Niemi? I doubt that any veterans want to sit in the stands for the whole tournament.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Piscotta
And another name, I realize this is a bit of a darkhorse but one who has been part of the team Finland program, who would seem to merit some consideration, would seem to be Fredrik Norrena. More than Kiprusoff and Backstrom, he would seem more amenable to being the number two if indeed Niittymaki is the starter. And it seems he's played well thus far in Sweden.
Personally I don't see Norrena having a chance of making the team. There are too many goalies in front of him in the depth chart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Piscotta
Have a hard time imagining Saku Koivu not on Team Finland if he wants to play and if he's healthy.
I agree, but personally I would leave him out of the team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Piscotta
I think Pyorala's stock has really risen in the early part of the NHL season as the Flyers have used him quite a bit.
The coaching staff might see him as an ideal 13th forward, because he can play all forward positions, so it’s easy for him to replace an injured forward. He’s also pretty good defensively, so he can easily be used in short handed play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Piscotta
I'm also curious as to whether you think New Jersey's Ilkka Pikkarainen might fit into one of the checking line roles moreso than some of the others?
One might think that at least Jarkko Ruutu and Sean Bergenheim are ahead of him in the depth chart. Antti Pihlström might also be a good alternative as he’s really energetic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Piscotta
Another veteran not mentioned on your list is Ville Peltonen. While he is no longer playing in the NHL, I find it hard to believe that he would not be considered if he's interested in playing.
There's enough veteran presence in the team even if Saku Koivu would be left out, so it's hard to see a good reason to pick Peltonen to the team. Of course Jukka Jalonen might think differently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Piscotta
Tend to agree with the NHL writer in terms of Petteri Nummelin. While not a prototypical NHL defensemen, his game seems to fit international play and could see why they'd include him.
Yep, but with Timonen, Pitkänen, Salo and Koistinen already in the roster, the power play is in pretty good hands, so it might be better to choose a defensive specialist instead of Nummelin. Maybe Väänänen or Kukkonen, they will surely be better in short handed play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Piscotta
Not sure I see the weakness you do - at least as far as the top four are concerned - especially Timonen, Sallo and Lydman.
Salo is injured a lot and Lydman hasn’t played that much this season. Also we are missing Numminen who was a really important player in previous big tournaments. In addition there aren’t that many promising young defensemen coming up the ranks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Piscotta
It's interesting that none of the SM-Liiga guys (Seikola, Soderholm, Heiskanen) are mentioned - although admittedly the talent pool of the guys playing outside of Finland is quite large.
Seikola might have a small chance of making the team if a lot of injuries occur, but I don’t think that Söderholm is an option. Heiskanen is just a decent SM-liiga defenseman, so perhaps you were thinking of someone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Piscotta
Aki-Petteri Berg?
I think that Ossi Väänänen is a far better alternative for that role. Berg hasn’t been that impressive in the SM-liiga this season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe
They tried Jokinen and Selänne at 2008 Worlds. Didn't click. If Saku is out, I'm thinking they're going to put Teemu with Mikko and Tuomo. Hagman has some experience with OJ, so he's a better fit there. Otherwise it's a fairly good lineup.
EDIT: Okay, it's not, after all. I'd like to know why you broke up Mikko Koivu and Tuomo Ruutu, who have Koivu-Selänne -like chemistry in the NT that has been showing up in international competition every time they've been slapped together.
I just threw the top6 forwards there without much thinking, so no need to pay that much attention to the line combos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe
These are both heavily offensive d-men who need a good shutdown guy beside them not to become liabilities. Hit Lydman up with Pitkänen and give Koistinen a specialist role, if you wish to include him.
Timonen is the only defenseman in our roster that plays a lot against the top forwards and does a fairly good job in it. IMO he’s the only NHL level shutdown guy in our defence. Lydman has so far played only 4 or 5 games in the NHL this season, so hard to say anything about his current form. With our current defensive crop we must make some compromises. Koistinen-Pikänen is truly an offense only pairing, but at least it might work on power play. In addition we really don’t have that many good defensive defenseman to choose from, or do you want to see both Väänänen and Kukkonen in the top-6?
Timonen is the only defenseman in our roster that plays a lot against the top forwards and does a fairly good job in it. IMO he’s the only NHL level shutdown guy in our defence. Lydman has so far played only 4 or 5 games in the NHL this season, so hard to say anything about his current form.
If you look at only the fresh statistics, he's been negative on +/- all season and was -11 at worst. He has as lot to pick up for the games as the rest of our injury-ridden top-four.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormentor
With our current defensive crop we must make some compromises. Koistinen-Pikänen is truly an offense only pairing, but at least it might work on power play.
They have been playing, but not particularly well, so either we trust those who have shown that they can pick up their game when it matters (like Lydman) or we hope for a quick rising curve for those who have been playing, no matter in how mediocre manner. And I thought I said that Koistinen could go in a specialist role. That means PP time. Just keep them separated on even strength.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormentor
In addition we really don’t have that many good defensive defenseman to choose from, or do you want to see both Väänänen and Kukkonen in the top-6?
Yes, if those two can play better defensive game than the guys at our OD depth chart, despite not being overall as profilic players. If it comes to stopping guys like Nash or Ovechkin, Väänänen or Kukkonen might not be our preferred picks out of all players in the world, but I'd sure as hell still trust them more to do it than Koistinen or Nummelin or the like.
If you look at only the fresh statistics, he's been negative on +/- all season and was -11 at worst. He has as lot to pick up for the games as the rest of our injury-ridden top-four.
Yep, but Timonen's game has improved lately, so he's the least of our worries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe
They have been playing, but not particularly well, so either we trust those who have shown that they can pick up their game when it matters (like Lydman) or we hope for a quick rising curve for those who have been playing, no matter in how mediocre manner. And I thought I said that Koistinen could go in a specialist role. That means PP time. Just keep them separated on even strength.
Since you seem to love the +/- stat so much, you are probably thrilled to hear that Koistinen is +1 in a weak Panthers team, how do you explain that if he's such a disaster defensively?
Yep, but Timonen's game has improved lately, so he's the least of our worries.
Fair enough. I hope you're willing to give the same benefit of doubt to the rest of our guys, since they still have time to pick it up too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormentor
Since you seem to love the +/- stat so much, you are probably thrilled to hear that Koistinen is +1 in a weak Panthers team, how do you explain that if he's such a disaster defensively?
He's played a winger all season and D only on PP in a specialist role. We don't know what his stats would have been had he been playing a standard defensive game as a real defenseman since we have not had the luxury to evaluate him on that this season. This is what separates him from Timonen, who has been playing the very role he's supposed to play in the olympics, a top-4 puck-moving d-man.
But if we look at Koistinen's past achievements in a shutdown D role - especially in the NT - he has, well, sucked.
So if Jalonen decides we need a swing man, I'm all for Koistinen making the cut. But if we need someone to play real defense, I'm figuring there're better alternatives even if the numbers don't speak for it.
He's played a winger all season and D only on PP in a specialist role. We don't know what his stats would have been had he been playing a standard defensive game as a real defenseman since we have not had the luxury to evaluate him on that this season. This is what separates him from Timonen, who has been playing the very role he's supposed to play in the olympics, a top-4 puck-moving d-man.
But if we look at Koistinen's past achievements in a shutdown D role - especially in the NT - he has, well, sucked.
So if Jalonen decides we need a swing man, I'm all for Koistinen making the cut. But if we need someone to play real defense, I'm figuring there're better alternatives even if the numbers don't speak for it.
Well, I have to admit that you are better informed than me, so i give up the chaffing. What's your top-7 at the moment by the way?
The order of these three is debatable. Each has pros and cons for the starter job. Kipper has mediocre stats, but he's got most wins out of this group this season. Nitty got good stats, but he's also got a ton close losses on his belt, plus similar amount of narrow wins. Bäcks has mostly past merits. He's been awfully streaky this season. I'd personally go with Kipper, since in the end winning games is all that counts.
Timonen - Salo
Pitkänen - Lydman
X-X
X
When I'm putting up Xs, it means I'm not quite sure who should be there yet. At the moment I'm thinking the three free slots ought to be filled up by Lehtonen, Lepistö, Kukkonen and Väänänen, with one not making the cut.
Perhaps
Timonen - Salo
Pitkänen - Lydman
Lehtonen - Kukkonen
Lepistö
There we have OD and DD in every pair. Pairs one and three also have past chemistry.
Then forwards.
T.Ruutu - M.Koivu - X
X - X - X
X - S.Koivu - Selänne
J.Ruutu - X - X
X
The olympics are a short tournament and the team is slapped together only two days before the first game, so I'm bent on trusting old chemistry, even though all of it hasn't been exactly shining this season. We've got two pairs who have been displaying some, and should not be separated unless they totally suck at it.
Essentially we have three guys there we can try with Koivu and Ruutu on the first to see who clicks. Hagman, Miettinen and J.Jokinen. By standard, I put them like that by default since Hagman has been a decent producer, Miettinen's a good fit for grinder role and he's got past with Kapanen and Jussi is a versatile forward (can play any role in any line) making him a perfect extra man.
Leino's a bit of a chance, but as I presented earlier in the thread, it's either him or yet another grinder. And while we can certainly medal with a lineup full of grinders, we've always fallen a little short from the main prize. Despite not producing, they seemed to have decent chemistry with Filppula in Detroit so hopefully we'll have another display of that in the games. OJ fills up the line. Leino and Fil should be fairly good setup guys for his "crash the net" gameplay.
The third one... well, it's the last hurrah, if they're all healthy. They might be a little older and little slower, but they should be able to handle third line minutes and let the younger guys pick up the main role. On even strength at least.
The fourth line can play solid two-way game. It's the role Kapanen had for the most of his NHL career. J.Ruutu is a no-brainer and I already explained Miettinen's presence in the 4th above.
Still, I emphasize, all the Xs are still debatable for me too, so don't take these setups as the word of god. Only those I already set up in those X-filled lineups as well are the ones I really think we should roll with no matter what.
Slim I know, but what are Janne Niskala's chances of making the team? He's really been playing great overall hockey so far this season, and been logging big minutes, 25:18 average, even played more then 32 minutes in a game that didn't go to OT.
Put Niskala on a PP with some good playmakers and he could very well be the darkhorse PP juggernaut of the tournament.
Slim I know, but what are Janne Niskala's chances of making the team?
I like Niskala. While he didn't impress me at the World Championships two years ago, the game he played last spring showed that he had indeed advanced to a whole new level (when they finally let him play) and what you presented seems to suggest that he hasn't at least gone backwards.
It's true that there isn't a given place for a blueliner in our other PP unit (the rest go to Timonen, Pitkänen and Salo if all healthy), and Niskala is very much in contention, at least in my mind. On even strength he's given me an impression of being a good allaround defenseman - so yeah, he'd definitely be a similar fit as Lehtonen or Lepistö.
Of course me giving high praise is no indication towards the thoughts of the team management, but I think he managed to impress them too last spring in Switzerland, so... we'll see.
Tend to agree with the NHL writer in terms of Petteri Nummelin. While not a prototypical NHL defensemen, his game seems to fit international play and could see why they'd include him.
He's got a good blueline wrister on PP but that's it. Imagine him trying to stop Ovetchkin or .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Piscotta
Aki-Petteri Berg?
Comedian, huh? Aki "The Hazard" Berg is not even near the skill we need. If all the NHL backs are injured I still wouldn't think Berg.
Tuomo Ruutu - Mikko Koivu - Olli Jokinen
Tuomo and Mikko have proven their chemistry and there's no doubt they will be our top duo. It's hard to find a suitable role for OJ, but I think he'd be worth a try as a first line winger. He surely has the goal scoring potential and who would be better to dig it out than Mikko.
Jussi Jokinen - Valtteri Filppula - Ville Leino
This line has also good potential to produce a good amount of goals.
Niklas Hagman - Saku Koivu - Teemu Selänne
I think this line doesn't need any introductions. Teemu is still our number one sniper and Saku and Niklas support him well.
Jarkko Ruutu - Niko Kapanen - Mika Pyörälä
That's one optimal fourth line. Jarkko has proven his abilities, Niko has never betraid in national suit and Pyörälä can play well in any role he will be put in.
I don't want Niskala anywhere near the team. I'm definitely not a fan of his. I think he is a big defensive liability when facing NHL players. Give me Lepistö, Lehtonen or Nummelin before him, in that order. All of them can play the PP just as well what I've seen.
I too would leave Lehtinen out. I love him, but I think he's past his prime. I'm also starting to think that about Koivu. At the moment I would almost rather have Jarkko Immonen centering a line on our Olympic team than Saku... but, there's some time before the Olympics start and I hope Koivu gets back to form. Him and Selänne can be magic together if everything goes right. We might not even need Koivu, if we play both Filppula and OJ at center (or N. Kapanen on the third line and someone like Nokelainen on the 4th line). Perhaps something like this:
T. Ruutu - M. Koivu - Selänne
Hagman/Miettinen - OJ - J. Jokinen
Hagman/Miettinen - Filppula - Leino
J. Ruutu - N. Kapanen - Bergenheim/Pyörälä/Pihlström...
But I think we all know that the national team staff won't "disrespect" Saku by leaving him out of the team. He's almost guarenteed a spot if he's healthy and wants to play.
Our defense looks kind of bad, but then again, it often does. I hope Pitkänen and Salo are fit to play in the Olympics... that would be huge for this roster.
Looks like Lehtinen isnt going to be in a required form se we can forget him. Also Peltonen has been great in the past but his form now a days isnt good enough. Also Kapanen would only fit in the 4th line but i dont think he is really a 4th liner. He isnt a hard checker and we have got better offencive guys. Jarkko Ruutu always steals the spotlight with some stupid tackles and we cant afford those in a semi-final match vs russia/canada, also his horrible with the puck. Pyörälä has been ok in flyers but I Dont think he's got the size for our 4th line.
Koistinen should defenetly NOT make the team. I dont think he has yet played 1 game as a diffender this season. He's also way too soft against guys like Heatly/Ovechkin. Lehtonen shouldn't fit cause he has only played 9 games this season and has some personal issues. Lepistö has been great this season according to some youtes fans. On the other hand Salmela has fallen out of the line-up.
Give me Lepistö, Lehtonen or Nummelin before him, in that order.
Let's say Salmela. Nummelin is as much of a defensive liability on NHL-sized ice, if not even worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brun0
O.Osala
What exactly has Osala done to have nothing but an offshoot chance at best? We've got a ton of grinders with more experience ahead of him. It's a long list, sure, but then you ought to add at least A.Pihlström, J.Immonen, R.Hahl and S.Kapanen into the mix as well.
Plus M.Lehtonen (Frölunda d-man), P.Nummelin and J.Niskala in defense.
Not that they fit anywhere within my personal preferences... but still, they've got a chance as well.
Let's say Salmela. Nummelin is as much of a defensive liability on NHL-sized ice, if not even worse.
What exactly has Osala done to have nothing but an offshoot chance at best? We've got a ton of grinders with more experience ahead of him. It's a long list, sure, but then you ought to add at least A.Pihlström, J.Immonen, R.Hahl and S.Kapanen into the mix as well.
Plus M.Lehtonen (Frölunda d-man), P.Nummelin and J.Niskala in defense.
Not that they fit anywhere within my personal preferences... but still, they've got a chance as well.
C'mon No he hasn't shown in NT, but the guy is 6'4 and 230 lbs, huge hitter, hard shot (knows how to score) and quite good skater. Also used to NHL-rink. Hahl is a joke. Pihlström has the energy so why not. Immonen isnt a 4th-liner and his too small his great othervice maybe for WC. S.Kapanen hasn't been that good this year. He is fast but the stickhandling isn't there and his very small. It also takes some time to get adjusted again to the NA rink no matter if they have played there before. The olympics is a short torunament as you stated so there is no time for adjustment.
__________________
Future of the Mile High City
When someone screams at me to hurry up, I slow down. - Mario Lemieux
Forget about style; worry about results. - Bobby Orr
He punched me. If that's his best punch, he'll be in trouble some day. - Patrick Roy
