His 4 playoffs prior to 1996, ranging from good to fantastic, don't make up for one mediocre year? You're basing your assessment of his playoff abilities on roughly 6% of his playoff games? Certainly not a legendary playoffs for Bure in 2000, but when you're involved in 4 of the 6 goals your team can muster over an entire series, you're likely not the biggest reason for losing.
Overlooking that a large part of playoff abilities is actually helping your team get to the playoffs. Massive oversight in your analysis from the start.
Once there (not twice or three times), if Pavel Bure cherry picks, as others have admitted throughout this thread, the team is effectively playing at reduced strength when Pavel Bure is on the ice yet his numbers get inflated because the little offence that does get generated goes thru Pavel Bure.
the reason to start with is that he is put down unhesitantly and unreflected by people who automatically repeats some kind of urban hockey myth that bure was the worse defensive forward ever to play the game ... then the bure fans, who knows him more accurately as a player, has to answer on that and everything ends up with exaggerations
yes, and that former self was a titan of a player, right?
kozlov hasn't declined much from what he was, he scored his best season in goals, 25, in the nhl in 2006-07 with the new york islanders, as a 31 year old ...
no, no, no ... teemu selänne a superior player to pavel bure? ... i can buy that people rank sergei fedorov higher, but selänne?
selänne, or should i say selkenne?, didn't have any 'extra defensive dimensions' that bure lacked, if bure was a cherry picker then selänne was an even worser one ... i reminisce he scored a lot of inessential goals in 92-93 against ahl like teams like the ottawa senators in games that ended 8-2 ... [feb 23, 1993 - winnipeg jets vs ottawa senators 8-2]
I think selanne and bure are about even actually, however Selanne clearly has more career accomplishments. Teemu is going into the hall of fame as soon as he's eligible, while Bure is still waiting to be inducted.
To me personally, Bure should rank alongside someone like Pat Lafontaine. Bure just seems to get more popularity on this board because he played for a hockey hotbed. Pat Lafontaine from 1988-1993 was just as good as Bure, hell i can argue that the greatness Lafontaine reached in 1992 and 1993 exclipses anything Bure has ever done. In 1992 he put up 93 points in 57 freakin games!
Overlooking that a large part of playoff abilities is actually helping your team get to the playoffs. Massive oversight in your analysis from the start.
Stay on topic, if you could. I didn't ask about his performances in the playoffs he didn't participate in (unless you're implying that every player who misses the playoffs is a poor playoff performer that year?).
Why base such a large amount of your analysis of his playoff abilities on such a small sample of his actual playoff games played? Why not look at 1994, where he played almost 40% of his playoff games?
Because the thread focus is the Florida period not 1994. Rather obvious. Quit trying to derail the thread.
The focus of the thread is his percentage of goals/points scored vs. his team in the 2001 regular season, and whether that was a record.
This has nothing to do with the 2000 playoffs.
This thread was derailed long ago, by you actually. You were the first poster to take the thread completely off topic. You claimed that Bure was a player who disappeared when it mattered based on stats from the 2000 playoffs:
The focus of the thread is his percentage of goals/points scored vs. his team in the 2001 regular season, and whether that was a record.
This has nothing to do with the 2000 playoffs.
This thread was derailed long ago, by you actually. You were the first poster to take the thread completely off topic. You claimed that Bure was a player who disappeared when it mattered based on stats from the 2000 playoffs:
Now a claim like that surely merits investigation into ALL of his playoffs, not just the year 2000.
Thank you for exposing yourself as the troll that you are who constantly misrepresents my posts.
My first response in the thread indicated that Joe Malone surpassed Pavel Bure's % vs his teammates. That you missed this is a reflection on you. Thefifthsedin then introduced the playoffs prior to the post with my response re Bure's playoff record. Again another of your misrepresentations.
Thank you for exposing yourself as the troll that you are who constantly misrepresents my posts.
My first response in the thread indicated that Joe Malone surpassed Pavel Bure's % vs his teammates. That you missed this is a reflection on you. Thefifthsedin then introduced the playoffs prior to the post with my response re Bure's playoff record. Again another of your misrepresentations.
arrbez at his computer:
Sorry everyone, but I don't think it's making the thread any worse at this point.
In 99-00, Bure was a legit Hart candidate. Then in 00-01, he was talked of as a cherrypicking cancer. Did he really play with less intensity and more cherrypicking in 00-01, or was he just a scapegoat of a team that failed as a team compared to the previous season? Maybe a little of both?
Ovechkin scored 65 and 56 goals in two years (adjusted: 72 and 59 goals). That's 121 goals (adjusted: 131 goals) in 161 games.
Bure scored 58 and 59 goals in two years (adjusted: 64 and 65 goals). That's 117 goals (adjusted: 129 goals) in 156 games.
So you tell me, that Ovechkin was actually better. Breaking 60 goals is just looking fancier.
Current NHL is clearly better for small, skilled and speedy players than it was 9 years ago. So only God knows how much Bure scores without clutch & grab and with some extra power plays.
Ovechkin put up those goals while contributing other things. Clutching and grabbing didn't effect Bure much, because he just waited for breakout passes.
Ovechkin put up those goals while contributing other things. Clutching and grabbing didn't effect Bure much, because he just waited for breakout passes.
You actually believe that current rules wouldn't influence Bure's performance? Go and watch some hockey then.
It would matter less to Ovechkin, because he is a tank. But still... his knees would probably be pretty hacked by now.
And yes, Ovechkin brings physical play and couple of hundred extra shots. But his defense is not good by any means and it doesn't make the difference when comparing two elite scorers.
Overall... Ovechkin should pass Bure in 3-4 seasons. But for now Pavel Bure has done more.
You actually believe that current rules wouldn't influence Bure's performance? Go and watch some hockey then.
It would matter less to Ovechkin, because he is a tank. But still... his knees would probably be pretty hacked by now.
And yes, Ovechkin brings physical play and couple of hundred extra shots. But his defense is not good by any means and it doesn't make the difference when comparing two elite scorers.
Overall... Ovechkin should pass Bure in 3-4 seasons. But for now Pavel Bure has done more.
Mindblowing
As much as I like Bure, he has in no way accomplished more than Ovechkin has so far.
In 99-00, Bure was a legit Hart candidate. Then in 00-01, he was talked of as a cherrypicking cancer. Did he really play with less intensity and more cherrypicking in 00-01, or was he just a scapegoat of a team that failed as a team compared to the previous season? Maybe a little of both?
Based on the stats, the only difference was that Bure was far less effective at scoring at even strength.
In 2000-01, his even strength scoring rate dropped by about 30%, and he went from being a plus player to a non-factor. His points didn't drop because he played 8 more games and two and a half more minutes per game.
I don't know if he cherry-picked more or was simply less effective when doing so.
As much as I like Bure, he has in no way accomplished more than Ovechkin has so far.
And what exactly has done Ovechnkin more? Two Harts? Okay. But how many Harts he gets against Jagr, Fedorov, Pronger, etc? Maybe one Hart. Maybe.
Just counting Hart Trophies is a bad way to compare players. Let's assume that Crosby is not getting hurt, or Caps miss the playoffs. There is chance that Ovie is not getting the hardware. Was his season worse because of that? I don't think so.
Or last year: was Ovie really clearly better (or even more valuable) than Malkin, Datsyuk, Crosby, Parise? I'm not so sure. It's not like he lacked support that year.
In my eyes Bure's first year in Florida was way more Hartish than last year by Ovie.
Both players are elite scorers and the best way to compare them is goals. Bure has 3 fantastic years and 2 great years. Ovechkin has one fantastic year (which is slightly better than any year by Bure), but all other years are not as good as Bure's.
Then we can add playoffs. Bure has one fantastic run. Ovechkin is yet to do this. On the international level Bure has an edge also.
So far Bure has done more. Ovechkin has more fancy hardware, but that's about it. Let him dominate goal-scoring charts for at least another 2 years. Plus, some good runs in the playoffs will do good. Current Caps are way better than most of the Bure's teams. So Ovie should get something done.
My first response in the thread indicated that Joe Malone surpassed Pavel Bure's % vs his teammates. That you missed this is a reflection on you. Thefifthsedin then introduced the playoffs prior to the post with my response re Bure's playoff record. Again another of your misrepresentations.
looks like you did find a legit scapegoat there ... but how is it taking the thread off topic to compare a players season to the same players season the year before?
are we not aloud to compare season|season anymore while talking about a specific player? it's like 'oh no i can't do that season|season comparison, it would be too very much off topic' ...
i only said that i thought bure's 1999-00 season was a better one than the 2000-01 season, in many different aspects [ppg, gpg, plus|minus, playoffs] ... personally [statistically] and per team [made the playoffs] it was better season
looks like you did find a legit scapegoat there ... but how is it taking the thread off topic to compare a players season to the same players season the year before?
are we not aloud to compare season|season anymore while talking about a specific player? it's like 'oh no i can't do that season|season comparison, it would be too very much off topic' ...
i only said that i thought bure's 1999-00 season was a better one than the 2000-01 season, in many different aspects [ppg, gpg, plus|minus, playoffs] ... personally [statistically] and per team [made the playoffs] it was better season
I have no problem with any comparisons involving the Florida seasons as they are all intertwined.
Just wanted to be chronologically accurate about how the thread evolved.
And what exactly has done Ovechnkin more? Two Harts? Okay. But how many Harts he gets against Jagr, Fedorov, Pronger, etc? Maybe one Hart. Maybe.
Just counting Hart Trophies is a bad way to compare players. Let's assume that Crosby is not getting hurt, or Caps miss the playoffs. There is chance that Ovie is not getting the hardware. Was his season worse because of that? I don't think so.
Or last year: was Ovie really clearly better (or even more valuable) than Malkin, Datsyuk, Crosby, Parise? I'm not so sure. It's not like he lacked support that year.
In my eyes Bure's first year in Florida was way more Hartish than last year by Ovie.
Both players are elite scorers and the best way to compare them is goals. Bure has 3 fantastic years and 2 great years. Ovechkin has one fantastic year (which is slightly better than any year by Bure), but all other years are not as good as Bure's.
Then we can add playoffs. Bure has one fantastic run. Ovechkin is yet to do this. On the international level Bure has an edge also.
So far Bure has done more. Ovechkin has more fancy hardware, but that's about it. Let him dominate goal-scoring charts for at least another 2 years. Plus, some good runs in the playoffs will do good. Current Caps are way better than most of the Bure's teams. So Ovie should get something done.
Exactly, Jagr won an art ross while missing 19 games. Ovechkin will never do that. If Bure played 82 games that year and put up around 105 points and 65 goals, he probably would have gotten the hart instead of pronger. I mean he recieved more lester b pearson votes than pronger did, and he was only 50 votes away from winning the hart. I think playing an extra 8 games could have sealed it for him.
Bure scored 58 goals that year while selanne only had 33, Kariya had 42(and took more shots), modano had 38, nolan had 42. Bure dominated like crazy.
And what exactly has done Ovechnkin more? Two Harts? Okay. But how many Harts he gets against Jagr, Fedorov, Pronger, etc? Maybe one Hart. Maybe.
Yeah that is nothing but speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazerbullet
Just counting Hart Trophies is a bad way to compare players. Let's assume that Crosby is not getting hurt, or Caps miss the playoffs. There is chance that Ovie is not getting the hardware. Was his season worse because of that? I don't think so.
Nothing but guesses from your side again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazerbullet
Or last year: was Ovie really clearly better (or even more valuable) than Malkin, Datsyuk, Crosby, Parise? I'm not so sure. It's not like he lacked support that year.
His season was quite easy better than Crosbys and Parises, I could see arguments for Datsyuk and Malkin but I would still give the edge to Ovechkin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazerbullet
In my eyes Bure's first year in Florida was way more Hartish than last year by Ovie.
If you say so. It was an impressive season indeed. He did play 11 games that very first year in Florida ^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazerbullet
Both players are elite scorers and the best way to compare them is goals. Bure has 3 fantastic years and 2 great years. Ovechkin has one fantastic year (which is slightly better than any year by Bure), but all other years are not as good as Bure's.
So one of Bures "fantastic seasons" where he led the league in goals with 5, but Ovechkins where he wins with 10 goals is only good?
Riiight..
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazerbullet
Then we can add playoffs. Bure has one fantastic run. Ovechkin is yet to do this. On the international level Bure has an edge also.
Yeah he had one fantastic run. I'll give you that one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazerbullet
So far Bure has done more. Ovechkin has more fancy hardware, but that's about it. Let him dominate goal-scoring charts for at least another 2 years. Plus, some good runs in the playoffs will do good. Current Caps are way better than most of the Bure's teams. So Ovie should get something done.
You can nitpick and accuse me in speculating all you want. But speculating is one way to analyze things. It just have to be done with some common sense. And my speculations are not that crazy and have some valid points.
Counting only Harts is stupid way to look at it. We still remember these players. We still remember how game was played, their peers and everything else.
I of course meant Bure's 99-00 Florida year. And really it's at least as good as Ovechkin latest Hart. Only stupid would deny that.
I called those Bure's years fantastic because he scored 60 (or almost 60 goals) in those seasons. He actually had 4 seasons like that, but I left the first one out, because scoring was insane that year and he was only 5th in the league. Plus he has one season with 51 goals.
Ovechkin has scored 52, 46, 65 and 56. So you tell me that this clearly beats Bure's 4 best seasons. I don't think so...
EDIT: Because of these back-to-back Hart Trophies Ovechkin is becoming one of the most overrated players on these boards. People tend to forget to look at how they were won. I wouldn't say that he was much better than 2-4 other players, last year. If he was better at all.
I'll give him his 65 goals and that Hart Trophy. Amazing number and deserved trophy. But it also had some clear and not so unrealistic "ifs".
Last edited by lazerbullet: 11-03-2009 at 04:19 PM.
You can nitpick and accuse me in speculating all you want. But speculating is one way to analyze things. It just have to be done with some common sense. And my speculations are not that crazy and have some valid points.
Counting only Harts is stupid way to look at it. We still remember these players. We still remember how game was played, their peers and everything else.
I of course meant Bure's 99-00 Florida year. And really it's at least as good as Ovechkin latest Hart. Only stupid would deny that.
I called those Bure's years fantastic because he scored 60 (or almost 60 goals) in those seasons. He actually had 4 seasons like that, but I left the first one out, because scoring was insane that year and he was only 5th in the league. Plus he has one season with 51 goals.
Ovechkin has scored 52, 46, 65 and 56. So you tell me that this clearly beats Bure's 4 best seasons. I don't think so...
EDIT: Because of these back-to-back Hart Trophies Ovechkin is becoming one of the most overrated players on these boards. People tend to forget to look at how they were won. I wouldn't say that he was much better than 2-4 other players, last year. If he was better at all.
I'll give him his 65 goals and that Hart Trophy. Amazing number and deserved trophy. But it also had some clear and not so unrealistic "ifs".
Ovechkin is on pace to score more goals in 702 games than Bure did by roughly 50. This doesn't even take into account that on the whole, Bure played in a higher scoring era. Yes, those 58 and 59 goal seasons with Florida were impressive, but by and large he scored a lot before the 1999/00 season, which was really where the dead puck era took hold. If you can't see that Ovechkin was better last year than Bure in 2000 then you are just clueless. Ovechkin scored 56 goals and 110 points. Although he finished 3 back of Malkin in the scoring race, he did lead the nhl in ppg. In 2000, Bure may have run away with the Richard trophy, but Jagr dominated him in ppg and even on a goals per game level was close to Bure. Its also not as though Bure was on a crap team. That Pantehrs team was underrated. They had good goaltending and decent scoring support. You can say all you want that Kozlov and Whitney mooched off of Bure, but in the very next season, when Bure scored at pretty much the same rate, but they saw decreased production from Kozlov, Whitney and Svehla, combined with poor goaltending the team plummeted. It is safe to say that Bure's performance was independant from that of his teammates. Actually, I'll reverse that. The performance of his teammates was independant of Bure.
You can nitpick and accuse me in speculating all you want. But speculating is one way to analyze things. It just have to be done with some common sense. And my speculations are not that crazy and have some valid points.
Counting only Harts is stupid way to look at it. We still remember these players. We still remember how game was played, their peers and everything else.
I of course meant Bure's 99-00 Florida year. And really it's at least as good as Ovechkin latest Hart. Only stupid would deny that.
I called those Bure's years fantastic because he scored 60 (or almost 60 goals) in those seasons. He actually had 4 seasons like that, but I left the first one out, because scoring was insane that year and he was only 5th in the league. Plus he has one season with 51 goals.
Ovechkin has scored 52, 46, 65 and 56. So you tell me that this clearly beats Bure's 4 best seasons. I don't think so...
EDIT: Because of these back-to-back Hart Trophies Ovechkin is becoming one of the most overrated players on these boards. People tend to forget to look at how they were won. I wouldn't say that he was much better than 2-4 other players, last year. If he was better at all.
I'll give him his 65 goals and that Hart Trophy. Amazing number and deserved trophy. But it also had some clear and not so unrealistic "ifs".
Where exactly am I saying this? Pavels seasons was exceptional but the fact that you consider bures 59 goal season fantastic when he won the league in scoring by 5 and Ovies season last year when he won by 10 not as good as that season.. well that's just silly.
And you honestly dont think he deserved the Hart last year? As I said there's an arguement for 2 other player to win the Hart last year. Not 4. Malkin did infact win the Art Ross and was amazing and so was Datsyuk with his stellar two-way game. I think that Ovechkins lead in goal and his gamebreaking ability makes him the best and most logical reason for the Hart last year, and guess what. The majority of hockeyfans and voters agrees on that.
It's quite obvious you're not really a fan of Ovechkin but atleast try to make yourself believeable.
^ Ovechkin is just a popularity boy. Jagr won 5 art ross trophies and was only given the hart once. Yet if Ovechkin wins 5 art ross trophies, they'll give him 5 harts, lol its hilarious how much favourtism he gets in hart voting.
... but how is it taking the thread off topic to compare a players season to the same players season the year before? 
it's like 'oh no i can't do that season|season comparison, it would be too very much off topic' ... 
