I pooped my shorts a bit when I saw the trade, and I'll certainly miss this player, but I can understand why management decided to not engage long term with him.
I pooped my shorts a bit when I saw the trade, and I'll certainly miss this player, but I can understand why management decided to not engage long term with him.
He was probably just too much of a wild card. Unfortunately, his past had forever affected managements vision of his place on the team. Maybe in the long haul he would have proven everyone wrong and been a huge "team player". Oh well. I'm glad we traded him since he was such a lightning rod.
Since you mentioned it having been involved with linguistics in the Air Force basic concepts 1 month, conversational approx 4-6 months, complete fluency 1 year. But I may be the exception. (ouch bad argument to pick ).
Not really a bad argument at all ... because during that time you will also be immersing yourself in a country and a culture completely foreign to you. You will be asked to train physically to levels few but the most elite physical specimens ever are. You will practice your skills and profession while suiting up for a physically punishing sport for the next seven months.
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You surely are not saying that Z is of the caliber and personality of those players are you?
No I'm not saying Z is on a level (physically or emotionally) with Sid and Malkin. So, wouldn't Z require EVEN MORE time and intensive constructive care and effort than Sid or Evgeny?
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Remember those players have both took far less than their market value. This is something even you would not be able to say Z would do.
And that not something that even you can say Z wouldn't do. [/quote]
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They have both also had terrific play outside of the NHL. Wasn't Z even getting snubbed when playing in Russia because of his play and work ethic?
What does any of that have to do with Zherdev's play last season under Hitch? Yeah, nothing you're right.
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I am not trying to say he was not good or a value to the team. He just doesn't fit in with where the team was going and there is too much chance that if he reverted he could have a negative influence on a new prospects development.
Does it bother you than no one in a position to know if this statement is true has never floated/reported or otherwise insinuated that Zherdev was traded because he was a bad influence on the young players he's either played with or (like Voracek and Filatov, never played with?
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Edit: For the record they never taught me Russian. There were however 6 other languages that I did have to know and all were learned within a 2 1/2 year span.
Gee, any Air Force job that is that language intensive probably has to do with Intel gathering and analysis. And if you had a job like that ... you obviously tested high in the Air Force aptitude tests. Which would make it easier for you to learn a passable level of utility in foreign languages.
Not really a bad argument at all ... because during that time you will also be immersing yourself in a country and a culture completely foreign to you. You will be asked to train physically to levels few but the most elite physical specimens ever are. You will practice your skills and profession while suiting up for a physically punishing sport for the next seven months.
Your right. I didn't have the advantage of being immersed in the culture. That would have defintely aided me in picking up the languages faster yet. Also I realize that the Air force is not the Marines when it comes to physical training but don't think for a second that we were not constantly training physically at the same time as we were learning the languages.
No I'm not saying Z is on a level (physically or emotionally) with Sid and Malkin. So, wouldn't Z require EVEN MORE time and intensive constructive care and effort than Sid or Evgeny?
Maybe you put more into something than it is valued at but for me that would be an example of bad investing.
And that not something that even you can say Z wouldn't do.
Didn't he already? think back to last time we had to sign him.
What does any of that have to do with Zherdev's play last season under Hitch? Yeah, nothing you're right.
Sure at times he played great but at the end of the season many times he had reverted back to the same old Z.
Does it bother you than no one in a position to know if this statement is true has never floated/reported or otherwise insinuated that Zherdev was traded because he was a bad influence on the young players he's either played with or (like Voracek and Filatov, never played with?
I will see what I can do on finding that link for you.
Gee, any Air Force job that is that language intensive probably has to do with Intel gathering and analysis. And if you had a job like that ... you obviously tested high in the Air Force aptitude tests. Which would make it easier for you to learn a passable level of utility in foreign languages.
This is why I gave the timelines in which I had to learn these languages. 6 in 2 1/2 and he couldn't manage 1 in 4
His "worth on the open market" or potential trades are irrelevant to me because I believe his worth on the team was more than his present market value.
I agree with this as well. If you know you have rising stocks at your hand, you don't sell. You keep them until the price of the stocks are high enough. Like I said in the Havlat thread, if I were GM in Chicago, I'd keep him because his trade value is really low but on the other hand taking a risk (not even a big one) you could get a big return. I'd done the same thing with Zherdev. He really picked his play from 06-07 last season, but still didn't apparently have much of trade value...
Some people have language aptitude (closely associated with mathmatical aptitude as math is just another "language" you learn.) and some don't. Maybe if Nikki had been born to Nikita's mom we'd be having an entirely different discussion here today. My point is you don't find the talent and potential of a Zherdev everyday - or even in every draft. No player is perfect - and no reasonable person expects them to be.
Here's a couple of snipets that can be taken how you like. Considering they were contained in text about the Z trade I assume that is what they are referring to.
"Scott and his staff attacked the areas of weakness on our roster," Hitchcock said. "They've made this team a lot more competitive. It's a pretty dramatic change, really, and we're a lot more solid."
Columbus traded maddeningly inconsistent yet talented right winger Nikolai Zherdev and center Dan Fritsche to the Rangers in exchange for defensemen Fedor Tyutin and Christian Backman. The Jackets also signed free agent left winger Kristian Huselius, who last suited up for the Flames.
In moving Zherdev, the Jackets rid themselves of a player whose numbers ping-ponged from good to bad every season and was a consistent threat to go home and play for a bigger Russian contract.
Farewell, too, to Zherdev. He is aloof, enigmatic and diva-like, yes, but he is not a bad guy. No doubt, he's a heck of a talent.
The thing is, Hitchcock didn't like him, not as a player. Shift to shift, Hitchcock didn't know what he was going to get from Zherdev.
Also, Zherdev was not a celebrated teammate.
And Howson didn't draft him.
For the last year, Zherdev has been prepped for trade. Hitchcock stopped yelling at him and provided uninterrupted shifts. Zherdev responded with 26 goals and 35 assists. This was good for Zherdev. It also made him tradable.
From the looks of things most everyone else sees why this happened. Take a step back and look at it through open eyes.
When my brother and I were in Quebec a couple years back, we sat down at a restaurant and were greeted with "Bonjour." He replied, in the interest of being polite, with "Bonjour." This gave the waitress the idea that she could start explaining the specials and what have you in French, at which time we looked at each other and laughed, started waving our hands and apologized, told her we didn't understand, and she smiled and started her spiel in English. From then on, as we entered and were greeted in stores and restaurants, we said "Hi" or "Hello."
How does this apply here? I'm not sure it does. I'm just artificially upping my post count.
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"Every game, every point is a necessity." -- Ty Conklin, January 2007
Some people have language aptitude (closely associated with mathmatical aptitude as math is just another "language" you learn.) and some don't. Maybe if Nikki had been born to Nikita's mom we'd be having an entirely different discussion here today. My point is you don't find the talent and potential of a Zherdev everyday - or even in every draft. No player is perfect - and no reasonable person expects them to be.
Never asked for perfection and he certainly never delivered it. He was great to watch at times and at others made me scream in disgust. They gave him what he should have been given to get the job done and he did that part of it to a better level than most others could have on the same team. But he still really never bonded as part of the team completely and sometimes bridges just can't be rebuilt. did we lose on this trade? If he stays in the NHL yes. If he bolts at the end of his contract NO. Over the course of this season Maybe.
Point is that if this move has something to do with this team making the playoffs and eliminates a potential risk of possibly having a bad influence around a prospect no matter how slight the chance it is a win and should be judged soley upon those merits.
Never asked for perfection and he certainly never delivered it. He was great to watch at times and at others made me scream in disgust. They gave him what he should have been given to get the job done and he did that part of it to a better level than most others could have on the same team. But he still really never bonded as part of the team completely and sometimes bridges just can't be rebuilt. did we lose on this trade? If he stays in the NHL yes. If he bolts at the end of his contract NO. Over the course of this season Maybe.
Point is that if this move has something to do with this team making the playoffs and eliminates a potential risk of possibly having a bad influence around a prospect no matter how slight the chance it is a win and should be judged soley upon those merits.
You're funny. I didn't realize we were talking about Rasputin and not Zherdev.
Point is that if this move has something to do with this team making the playoffs and eliminates a potential risk of possibly having a bad influence around a prospect no matter how slight the chance it is a win and should be judged soley upon those merits.
Your trying to debate with people over the organizational view of how Zherdev was likely viewed over excitement that people felt over Zherdev and his latest highlight.
I've find that to be an exercise in futility. Can't even get most people to admit that Zherdev wasn't the same player the first half of the season compared to the second half.
Really the only thing that matter are that the Jackets were interested in changing directions, with the trading of Fritsche, Zherdev, and Brule while letting Hainsey walk. These players may go on to have great careers. Howson and Hitch like the value they got back in the trade. As a lot people view value as point production, this trade will likely never look good in their minds.
Frankly, I like Huselius and perfer Huselius and Tuytin to Zherdev, Fritsche, and Hainsey. Backman is questionable, but at worst he's here for a year. I think he'll be fine in the roll Hitch define's for him. It's a contract year for him and I'm sure he's motivated. He should get plenty of oppurtunity on the PP.
These players we got, for the most part, fit in well with what the team is trying to do. If your not sold on the plan, you won't like it. Frankly, this is the exact kind of hockey I like, so I am a bit biased. I loved watching us play the Ducks and Nashville, I just wish we wouldn't have choked against the latter.
As this teams "hockey sense" continues to improve, people are going to start burying shots that were missed in the past and our goal scoring will start to increase.
Blah hit it exactly. There are 2 or 3 camps on Zherdev and no one wants to hear, see or smell the other camps. I think the fact he never spoke to the media made it all much worse, because no one could gauge him on personal level. We only had rumors, opinions, observations to go off of.
Your trying to debate with people over the organizational view of how Zherdev was likely viewed over excitement that people felt over Zherdev and his latest highlight.
I've find that to be an exercise in futility. Can't even get most people to admit that Zherdev wasn't the same player the first half of the season compared to the second half.
Really the only thing that matter are that the Jackets were interested in changing directions, with the trading of Fritsche, Zherdev, and Brule while letting Hainsey walk. These players may go on to have great careers. Howson and Hitch like the value they got back in the trade. As a lot people view value as point production, this trade will likely never look good in their minds.
Frankly, I like Huselius and perfer Huselius and Tuytin to Zherdev, Fritsche, and Hainsey. Backman is questionable, but at worst he's here for a year. I think he'll be fine in the roll Hitch define's for him. It's a contract year for him and I'm sure he's motivated. He should get plenty of oppurtunity on the PP.
These players we got, for the most part, fit in well with what the team is trying to do. If your not sold on the plan, you won't like it. Frankly, this is the exact kind of hockey I like, so I am a bit biased. I loved watching us play the Ducks and Nashville, I just wish we wouldn't have choked against the latter.
This post is full of mischaracterizations.
I am not upset about this trade because I think Zherdev is exciting to watch. I think he's an elite talent and I don't think we got value for him.
I'm not measuring that value in point production, I'm measuring that based on the holes on our team. If we'd added Huselius to Nash and Zherdev and kept Hainsey with the rest of our existing defense, I'd like that better than what Howson did to this point.
I am not upset about this trade because I think Zherdev is exciting to watch. I think he's an elite talent and I don't think we got value for him.
I'm not measuring that value in point production, I'm measuring that based on the holes on our team. If we'd added Huselius to Nash and Zherdev and kept Hainsey with the rest of our existing defense, I'd like that better than what Howson did to this point.
And I wouldn't.
Having said that, no one has questioned Zherdev's talent. So go ask yourself why the Jackets were interested in moving him (seemed motivated actually) and why they didn't get "more value".
Having said that, Tyutin has quite a bit of value, just not what you value. Pretty much like some of the other signings.
As far as any mischaracterizations, if this wasn't your view, don't worry about it. There are a fair share that feel this way. I've been reading these boards just as long and you and we both know that a great deal of the people judge Zherdev on points and his highlights. Not on his day-to-day game, his attitude, or how he fits in with this team.
As long as we're quoting, AG, allow me to try for some balance (By the way, I have no trouble understanding why Zherdev was traded. That doesn't mean I agree with the reasons, shortsighted and fluid as they tend to be.) With Zherdev's departure, I've been trying to find articles about him for keepsakes. Here are some snippets, some from this season. I'll start with things Zherdev has said about Columbus, since such things matter most to the posters here.
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"I really like Columbus....And the city itself is to my liking - quiet, calm....But I hope to remain with Columbus, and make the playoffs with them next season" (Zherdev 2006).
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"'He was happy in Columbus,' Hedges said. 'He didn't need a change of scenery. He was just getting to the point where he was starting to fit in with the situation there.'
'But he's excited to be headed to New York, and he leaves Columbus on a good note and with no hard feelings'" (Hedges 2008).
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"'He's connected to the group,' said Hitchcock. 'He's starting to enjoy the elements of hockey that we as North Americans take for granted -- team first, value in being a teammate, enjoying other peoples' company and playing for the crest.'
'If you're not a good teammate, in the heat of battle it always comes out,' added Hitchcock. 'And it did with Niky. It came out the wrong way and now he's starting to dig in for other people and not just for himself. He's an interesting guy.'
'He's kind of a reluctant scorer and it almost embarrasses him at times," said Hitchcock.' He fools around in shootouts and then when you put five bucks on the line, he goes 4-for-5.
'He's a gifted guy, but he doesn't think like a scorer. He thinks like a playmaker and that's the misnomer that people have about him. They think because he got 27 goals one year (2005-06) that he's a scorer. He can score, but he thinks like a playmaker.
'I would say he'll be -- within a year, if he keeps going -- an elite guy and top-25 forward in the league, for sure,' said Hitchcock" (Hitchcock, January 2008).
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"Pascal Leclaire said the buy-in by Zherdev is reflected in the way he carries himself compared to last year.
'He's around more and he's involved more,' said the Blue Jackets goalie. 'On the ice, he's not floating around, just looking for goals. He's involved in every aspect. What he does, not a lot of guys can do. I can't think of anybody who's even similar.'
'There are some similarities with [Oilers winger] Ales Hemsky,' said Peca. 'A very dangerous open-ice player, but Zherdev is even better one-on-one. There's just such skill there'" (Leclaire and Peca, January 2008).
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'It was unbelievable to me when he called and said he wanted to play in Columbus,' Tyinych told ESPN.com. 'I said, 'You sure about that?' He's only 19 years old. It's in the middle of the hockey season. He doesn't speak English, and he wasn't prepared. He had no idea about what kind of hockey was played here. It was a different ice surface, everything was different. But he said, 'I would like to come, and I think I am ready.' It was a tough decision to make for a kid, and I'm very proud of him.
'He's that kind of kid,' added Tyinych, an agent now based in Ottawa who played for the Soviet Red Army team as Vladislav Tretiak's backup. 'To make this decision by himself, this is special. Of my young Russian clients who are of the same age, not too many would have that kind of toughness to be able to make that tough decision.
'This comes when there's a lot of pressure on him, and it's from both sides. But he said, 'I'd like to try. I'd like to do it myself.'" (Tyinych 2003).
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Hitchcock gave up on a guy he projected to be a top-25 player in the league, probably for slumping late in a season when basically his whole roster was slumping. And now he's just a second-line forward, of course
It's been said here before, but when a Russian (or Ukrainian) is in a slump, it's because he's lazy and enigmatic. When a North American is in a slump, it's because he's clutching the stick too tightly.
Thanks, Ren. As others have noted it's difficult to find much *hard copy* stuff from Z. That said, I am just SHOCKED AND AMAZED that Z is excited about being a Ranger this season. Shocked! I say
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I haven't commented much on the Zherdev situation because it hits close to home. It's the type of thing you always think about, but never really expect to happen, at least for me.
I was about to come in and post on the subject, but Ren really summed it up perfectly.
Believe it or not, Nik was happy in Columbus. I hate to think about him going to back to Russia in a year or more, because it would make so many feel vindicated, and it just isn't fair(assuming he doesn't break a contract like the rumored Radulov situation). But truth be told, Columbus was the perfect American city for Nik from what I hear about the type of person he really is, and he may quickly find out New York doesn't really suit him.
I'm nervous, now that Radulov is supposedly leaving. The reasons for Nik to stay in the NHL to prove everybody wrong are slowly dwindling away. I'm becoming to the point that I'm OK with him being traded, if nothing else, to (hopefully) get a fair shake somewhere else.
I haven't commented much on the Zherdev situation because it hits close to home. It's the type of thing you always think about, but never really expect to happen, at least for me.
I was about to come in and post on the subject, but Ren really summed it up perfectly.
Believe it or not, Nik was happy in Columbus. I hate to think about him going to back to Russia in a year or more, because it would make so many feel vindicated, and it just isn't fair(assuming he doesn't break a contract like the rumored Radulov situation). But truth be told, Columbus was the perfect American city for Nik from what I hear about the type of person he really is, and he may quickly find out New York doesn't really suit him.
I'm nervous, now that Radulov is supposedly leaving. The reasons for Nik to stay in the NHL to prove everybody wrong are slowly dwindling away. I'm becoming to the point that I'm OK with him being traded, if nothing else, to (hopefully) get a fair shake somewhere else.
I don't see how Nik could have been the terrible influence on and off the ice (I dunno, just ask Aging Goalie ... he'll explain it all to you), the hated and hateful diva, the object of derision by the fanbase and management, the perennial Jacket Goat - and EVER have been happy in Columbus. If he was ever happy here - it had to because of the language barrier and the fact that he's the mentally toughest and most resilient player that the Jackets ever drafted.
Honestly, I'd have to suffer a dang serious brain injury in order to believe Nikki wasn't thrilled to be heading out of here and going to New York. I feel way worse for myself and my team than I do for Nik.
Last edited by Pluckfur: 07-11-2008 at 01:50 AM.
Reason: poor use of pronouns and general lack of grammar (as per usual)
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