Columbus - Canucks proposal

[FruityPants3]

Originally Posted by Barney Gumble

Well "sick prospects" or not - it would be sending the wrong message to Luongo (ie., re-building). You ain't going to be gettting any "Crosby type prospects". Look at what Hossa got the Thrashers.

I'm really not endorsing it at all, just trying to think about what the return would look like.

You'd be getting a lot more than Hossa.

[Barney Gumble]

Originally Posted by beeksa

I'm really not endorsing it at all, just trying to think about what the return would look like.

You'd be getting a lot more than Hossa.

More because there's two 1st line players involved, but Hossa is an elite player - the twins are not - so I don't think it would be significantly more.

[cbjgirl]

Originally Posted by tantalum

...
I like Nash I really do. But a team with Rick Nash and whatever center and nothing behind those two players also SUCKS offensively.

When I do the math I come to the same conclusion over and over again...how about building a good second line and finding a top 6 linemate for your two legitimate first line players? There are 4 holes to fill in that top 6. Why create another one when it is likely not going to lead to an exceptional increase in offensive output without the same third member of the line and second line. You waste time, effort and potentially resources to get to the same point you are at now.

What you get is the 2007/2008 version of the Columbus Blue Jackets - don't think you want that.

Both of our teams have similar issues, not enough good players in the top 6. A trade like this won't happen since we have similar needs and just swaping the "good" parts of each team makes absolutely no sense for either.

[NOTENOUGHBREWER]

Originally Posted by tantalum

You are ignoring and discounting the goals that wouldn't be scored because the one or both of the twins didn't make the play even though they didn't score the goal. You can't simply say assists aren't worth anything because that is clearly an erroneous statement.

So you aren't losing only 40-45 goals you are losing more goals than that. You have to replace those goals. So Rick Nash replaces those 40 goals. you still don't have a center to get him the puck and he isn't a great playmaker. You get a few more highlight reel goal but ultimately for just over $7 million dollars you won't get more bang for your buck unless you are quite lucky in finding a very very good player to replace the other Sedin for $1.7 mil.

And let's put this in perspective a bit....Rick Nash has 65 goals the past two years. 96 in the past three years.

Daniel Sedin has, you guessed it, 65 goals in the past two years as well. 87 in the past 3.

Very similar numbers for two productive players. Due to that you have ot be very careful when suggesting a trade that removes the remaining 2 top 6 players from the roster while only getting one back.

I like Nash I really do. But a team with Rick Nash and whatever center and nothing behind those two players also SUCKS offensively.

In the end this is what these Twins for Nash or Jokinen trades amount to: trading two players who are individually very good for a player that is margnially better than one Sedin (and I'm not convinced of that) but making more money. To not affect the bottom line offensively and cap wise you now have to spend other assets to replace the other twin with a marginally lesser player making quite a bit less money. And you've yet to address the other problems.

When I do the math I come to the same conclusion over and over again...how about building a good second line and finding a top 6 linemate for your two legitimate first line players? There are 4 holes to fill in that top 6. Why create another one when it is likely not going to lead to an exceptional increase in offensive output without the same third member of the line and second line. You waste time, effort and potentially resources to get to the same point you are at now.

Now of course that is all predicated on the twins being interested in signing extensions. If they aren't interested then yes you look at moving them but you still have to be darn careful when you do. Fill in the other holes FIRST, as they will remain serviceable players (to say the least) and you can still negotiate with them etc.

The reason people are so in love with Nash is because he is a gamebreaker. Guys who dont need anyone else and they are still a very real threat to score everytime. It's like when Gaborik was the only offensive player on the Wild. Play a tight defensive game and he alone would get you some wins because he can do it by himself. Having one superstar offensive player can make up for alot of holes up front. A guy like Nash changes the makeup of the team. You can put him with anyone and opposing teams will put out their best shutdown unit against him. Leaving the second line with a better matchup. Not all opposing teams tried to line juggle to get a shut down unit out against the Sedins, they were more than happy to match top line against top line. Not many coaches would be willing to do the same vs a line with Nash on it.

Granted its not the most successful way to build a team and usually only bottom feeder teams go that route with 1 scorer and pluggers galore, but if you truely believe Rick Nash is a superstar, then he's easily worth the price of both Sedins.

[PuckMunchkin]

Originally Posted by cbjgirl

What you get is the 2007/2008 version of the Columbus Blue Jackets - don't think you want that.

Both of our teams have similar issues, not enough good players in the top 6. A trade like this won't happen since we have similar needs and just swaping the "good" parts of each team makes absolutely no sense for either.

Thats actually a great analysis of the situation.
Nicely condensed in to a one easy to digest paragraph.

[tantalum]

Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER

The reason people are so in love with Nash is because he is a gamebreaker. Guys who dont need anyone else and they are still a very real threat to score everytime. It's like when Gaborik was the only offensive player on the Wild. Play a tight defensive game and he alone would get you some wins because he can do it by himself. Having one superstar offensive player can make up for alot of holes up front. A guy like Nash changes the makeup of the team. You can put him with anyone and opposing teams will put out their best shutdown unit against him. Leaving the second line with a better matchup. Not all opposing teams tried to line juggle to get a shut down unit out against the Sedins, they were more than happy to match top line against top line. Not many coaches would be willing to do the same vs a line with Nash on it.

Granted its not the most successful way to build a team and usually only bottom feeder teams go that route with 1 scorer and pluggers galore, but if you truely believe Rick Nash is a superstar, then he's easily worth the price of both Sedins.

Opposition coaches always put the teams best shut down D-men against the twins and quite often the shut down line. That's the whole point. Opposition never had to think to shut down any other line. A good second line does that.

[cbjgirl]

Originally Posted by tantalum

Opposition coaches always put the teams best shut down D-men against the twins and quite often the shut down line. That's the whole point. Opposition never had to think to shut down any other line. A good second line does that.

And this is exactly the same problem Nash had in Columbus. Both teams need a legitimate 2nd line threat.

Do you need wingers or centers? We would kill for a 1st or 2nd line center (plus a puck moving offensive defenseman).

[putridgasbag]

Originally Posted by Uhmkay

Eventually one day you'll understand that it's not point totals that count but infact it's goals produced that do. If Line A scores 100 goals and only gets 200 points between the three players but line B scores 70 goals and gets 240 points.... Line A is still a more productive line.

Thats the problem when people look at the Sedins, their (Particularily Henrik's) point totals are flooded with assists... many of those that aren't even 1st assist but instead second and he just happened to be someone the puck bounced off, or he pass to someone who then made a great play.

Granted, Henrik does do more than his share of great passing, but there are to many players who's point totals are blown up over getting a 'lucky' assist.

People keep saying "Well, we'd lose 160 points if we got rid of them". So fricken what... we'd lose 40-45 goals between the two.

We'd lose 160 points for a guy who's career high is 69. Don't get me wrong Nash would look good in a Canuck uni but get serious.Where do you propose the goals are going to come from? You can't discount the goals that are scored by others on the line. If it was so easy to pick up the cheap little second assist and get points what happened to Nash's totals? At this point he isn't creating goals for others so we would require others to do so.

So you gotta look harder at the points. 160 - 69 would be 91 and that would be the point total of ...drum roll please... oh turns out nobody in the league this year but at 92 we have Zetterberg, LeCavalier and Spezza and 89 there was Alfredsson. Hmmm decent group of players.... So who ya gonna get to replace the points?

[Hi-wayman]

Originally Posted by Rotang

Just a note: Rick Nash has two years left on his contract and will be an UFA thereafter. If the Jackets don't make the playoffs in the next two seasons, its not out of the question that he'd be reluctant to sign an extension.

The proposal isn't enough (why are the two 1sts even in there?), but it's not as if Nash is locked up longterm and would be our franchise player for years to come.

The two firsts are there because, from a Vancouver point of view the Canucks would not be as good a team with Nash alone compared to what the Canucks are with both Sedins and without Nash. To be successful, both Columbus and Vancouver need six front line players, not just one or two. The Canucks have four decent top six players developing in Grabner, White, Simek and Raymond, but except for Raymond the others are one to three seasons away from being anything but emergency callups in the NHL. As the UFA candidates are limited this off season, Vancouver's only other option to improve our top six is to trade our picks, prospects and defensive depth or we bide our time and allow our team time to develop (not re-build) for a year or two.

Columbus's prospects are closer to being NHL ready than those of the Canucks. Though Nash may be a game breaker, the Sedins are more likely to help the team they are on make the playoffs than will Nash. There are two Sedins and they are just about to enter their prime years. They not only score, but they prevent the other team from scoring because the Sedins keep contol of the puck for huge periods of time. They are at the age and learning curve that they can now help new rookies develop into a team rather than play like a bunch of individuals, but yet the Sedins are young enough to still play with the enthusiam of a younger player. Unfortunately the Canucks don't have those NHL ready rookies for the Sedins to help.

Nash is still too young. He is still learning the responsibilities of a NHL player himself. By the time he is ready in 2 or 3 years, the Canucks will have the rookies making the Canucks that will be just maturing to the stage they can benefit from a leader like Nash. Some of those rookies would be the draft picks coming to the Canucks along with Nash for the Sedins.

If the Canucks trade the Sedins for Nash, I don't see them being a contender or even making the playoffs unless Gillis pulls some rabbits out of the UFA & trade bags. At least with the Sedins we likely will make the first or second round of the playoffs.

[cbjgirl]

Columbus will keep Nash and deal one or both first round picks (and prospects - Brule?) for centers and a puck moving defenseman. We don't want to trade Nash, we want someone else to play with him (and Modin - if he can stay healthy) on the top line.

I wouldn't be surprised (depending on the deal) if Zherdev ended up getting moved this summer - but only for an established 1st line center. You've got to give to get. I just think we would make horrible trading partners (same with the Islanders). We are all looking for the same things.

Concerning the "Nash is young" comment... Nash was named captain at the end of last season. With the added responsibility (and Foote and Feds being moved) Nash seemed to really step it up toward the end of the year.

[Flinch*]

Originally Posted by Barney Gumble

*THE* correct answer.

The only thing the Canucks will be getting is likely either pending UFAs in return in a deal now or prospects and picks at the trading deadline.

So Sedins for Lecavalier?

[rye&ginger]

I would not trade Nash for the Sedins straight up.

I would for Eric Staal as he is a centre.

Sedins are being under vauled by many here, so the OP is on the right track in terms of what the BJ's would need to give in return, but they wont want to make this deal most likely. But they are really in the ******* for not having made the playoffs when they have been claiming they will be.

And cbjgirl is right, neither team is really better off after making this deal. This is just a 'get a Canadian stud' deal.