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Ted Lindsay on Vladimir Konstantinov

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05-12-2008, 05:17 PM
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FissionFire
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Ted Lindsay on Vladimir Konstantinov

Normally many of these comments would seem laughable in the context of players evaluating each other. The difference here is that Terrible Ted was under oath in court so it's a reasonable assumption that these are his true thoughts and not the usual fluff from athletes. It should also help put into perspective just how much credence we should place into players evaluations of each other as "credible" evidence. I've included a paraphrased excerpt below:

Source: Ted Lindsay: Konstantinov was 'greatest hockey player in the world'
Quote:
Hockey great Ted Lindsay testified today that Vladimir Konstantinov was the greatest hockey player in the world at the time of his devastating injury in a 1997 limousine crash and possibly the greatest defenseman of all time.

He described Konstantinov as "a gifted person," a skilled bodychecker who was a magnificent skater and had the ability to go up ice and act as a fourth forward and still get back across his own blue line in time to defend.

Lindsay said Doug Harvey of the Montreal Canadiens was the greatest defenseman he ever saw before Konstantinov, but "Doug didn't have the gift of Vladi with the bodychecking." The only other defenseman he compared Konstantinov to was Bobby Orr of the Boston Bruins, whom Lindsay said was a great skater who again was not as physical as Konstantinov.
Kinda makes you wonder if players (and maybe coaches?) comments should just be ignored when trying to defend a player or "prove" they are better than another.
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05-12-2008, 05:22 PM
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Der Kaiser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
Normally many of these comments would seem laughable in the context of players evaluating each other. The difference here is that Terrible Ted was under oath in court so it's a reasonable assumption that these are his true thoughts and not the usual fluff from athletes. It should also help put into perspective just how much credence we should place into players evaluations of each other as "credible" evidence. I've included a paraphrased excerpt below:

Source: Ted Lindsay: Konstantinov was 'greatest hockey player in the world'


Kinda makes you wonder if players (and maybe coaches?) comments should just be ignored when trying to defend a player or "prove" they are better than another.
Oh deary me, how old is Terrible Ted nowadays? The man is utterly mad. That statement is on par with Gretzky's monthly "best player I've ever played against".
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05-12-2008, 05:29 PM
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FissionFire
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The difference is Ted made these statements under oath in court and would face perjury charges (and possible jail time) if someone had proof he was lying. That's the biggest difference between this and things like the Gretzky comments and the only reason I sat up and took more than a passing notice and laugh at them.
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05-12-2008, 05:33 PM
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cottonking
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Why was Lindsay in court testifying about the greatest hockey player he'd ever seen?

Ahh ... it's a civil trial, and by doing so, Lindsay makes the case that Vlad Konstantinov had X million dollars of income robbed from him, etc.

I buy that Vlad was the best defenseman at the time of the crash in Lindsay's eyes. Even the best defenseman of the 90's.

I also buy that different people judge defensemen in different ways ... that a guy like Lindsay would value a big, tough hitter over two slick puck-movers like Orr and Harvey. I also buy the standard Red Wing bias ... and there IS something to do be said about old guys being amazed by the ways that the game is bigger and grander today. Lindsay has good reason to exaggerate, but fold all the evidence together and, yeah, I can buy that this is Lindsay's honest opinion.

Edit: there's no way to prove perjury. Silly idea.
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05-12-2008, 05:41 PM
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Ugggh....Lemieux? Sakic? Forsberg? Jagr? Lindros? Bourque? Lidstrom? Come on Teddy. One too many shots to the head.
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05-12-2008, 05:48 PM
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99wasnotthebest
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Lindsay is 83.

VK wasn't an offensive powerhouse, so how could anyone compare him to Bobby Orr is beyond me, he only scored 5 goals in 97, I mean seriously.

There's no question he was a great d-man but the best? What??

Ray Bourque was much better excuse me, and in my opinion so was Coffey, who was also playing at the time.
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05-12-2008, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99wasnotthebest View Post
Coffey was better than Konstantinov
/credibility
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05-12-2008, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99wasnotthebest View Post
Lindsay is 83.

VK wasn't an offensive powerhouse, so how could anyone compare him to Bobby Orr is beyond me, he only scored 5 goals in 97, I mean seriously.

There's no question he was a great d-man but the best? What??

Ray Bourque was much better excuse me, and in my opinion so was Coffey, who was also playing at the time.
Not to mention his teammate, Lidstrom, who we knopw to be MUCH better as well.
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05-12-2008, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
The difference is Ted made these statements under oath in court and would face perjury charges (and possible jail time) if someone had proof he was lying. That's the biggest difference between this and things like the Gretzky comments and the only reason I sat up and took more than a passing notice and laugh at them.
How could you prove that he was lying? It's an opinion, not an empirical fact.
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05-12-2008, 07:07 PM
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MXD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Dale Cooper View Post
How could you prove that he was lying? It's an opinion, not an empirical fact.
Well.... his oath was only about.... his opinion, not the content of it.

I mean.... If Lindsay thought the best D-Men he ever saw was Ron Duguay (and nevermind Duguay wasn't a D), his oath would force him to say Duguay was the best forward. Nevermind everybody would laugh at him for saying such a stupid thing.

This said, in regards to the .... well, hockey part of the statement... Lindsay was old, and the fact Vlad was maybe the best D-Men he saw FOR THE LAST 10 GAMES OR SO OF VLAD could... SOMEHOW make sense. (And then again, what about the offensive output...?) But whatever. Let's say he was the best D-Men Lindsay ever saw for his last 10 games. It's indeed extremely possible that he (Lindsay) thinks (VLAD) is the best D-Men to ever play. And since the game is faster due to, well, all the things we know... The statement could SOMEHOW makes sense. The fact that it's the last he saw of VLAD also means that it's possible that he has good memories -- VK was indeed possessed for what was, unfortunately, his last few games.

Last edited by MXD: 05-12-2008 at 07:16 PM.
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05-12-2008, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Dale Cooper View Post
How could you prove that he was lying? It's an opinion, not an empirical fact.
yeah. unless he said "I lied in court". lol.
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05-12-2008, 07:20 PM
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Danny Duberstein
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He's offering a subjective opinion in a civil trial, this is not exactly perjuring yourself in a murder trial.
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05-12-2008, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cottonking View Post
/credibility
???

How was Paul Coffey NOT better than Konstantinov? They were polar opposites, but Coffey is clearly the #2 offensive defenseman of all time. He's a hard player to evaluate, but certainly better than Konstantinov in the grand scheme of things.
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05-13-2008, 01:22 PM
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Personally, and this is coming from a person who values Offensive contribution much more than Defensive contribution, I don't see why this is ridiculed so much.

Now personally since following Hockey, I would never say a Defenseman has been the best Player in the League. In fact, most years I would say they aren't even top 5.

Yet some people value Defensive play quite a bit.

Let's take a look back. Vladimir Konstantinov was regarded by many as the best Defensive Player in the League before his Accident. In a League that was obviously changing towards Defense and physical play, Konstantinov had a good argument to be the best at the dominant style of play.

There were quite a few Players and Coaches as well as tons of Media writers who thought Chris Pronger was the best Player in the World in 2000. He did win the Hart Trophy that year.

I've noticed on some of the Hart and Lester B. Pearson threads on HFBoards, that some people consider Nicklas Lidstrom as the best or one of the best Players this year, though he doesn't have the support from the Media or the Players and Coaches as much as Pronger did.

Having watched all three performances by all three defenseman, I would definitely say that if Pronger in 2000 and Lidstrom now can be argued for as the best Player in the World, than so can Konstantinov in 1997.

I personally do not consider Konstantinov to be a top 5 player in 1997 (Mario Lemieux, Eric Lindros, Jaromir Jagr, Dominik Hasek, and Teemu Selanne) or Pronger to be a top 5 player in 2000 (Jaromir Jagr, Pavel Bure, Steve Yzerman, Joe Sakic, Mark Recchi) or Lidstrom this year (Alex Ovechkin, Evgeni Malkin, Daniel Alfredsson, Pavel Datsyuk, Jarome Iginla).

This is due to the way I see the Game and the importance I place on different aspects but I can easily see why some people (like Ted Lindsay) would say otherwise as the place importance on different things.

In fact, Lindsay's evaluation of Konstantinov is extremely informative to those who didn't see him play: "He described Konstantinov as "a gifted person," a skilled bodychecker who was a magnificent skater and had the ability to go up ice and act as a fourth forward and still get back across his own blue line in time to defend."

Bringing up Doug Harvey as a comparison also helps, not only in evaluating Konstantinov, but also in how Lindsay sees the Game, and what he favors.

It's not like Lindsay just left it at saying "greatest hockey player in the world" but he elaborated on it.

This article tells me much more about Vladimir Konstantinov, his play, and how good he was, than his Norris Trophy voting record or even his Offensive stats.

These kind of elaborated opinions are the next best thing to watching the Player yourself.

Lastly, I don't see how this one example (or the Gretzky examples) in anyway destroy the credibility of Player and Coaches opinions, as especially when they are elaborated on as is the case here, they are more valuable in my eyes then the bunch of anonymous opinions without argument that make up Awards, or even stats, which only give part of the story mostly relating to Offense.
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05-13-2008, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
???

How was Paul Coffey NOT better than Konstantinov? They were polar opposites, but Coffey is clearly the #2 offensive defenseman of all time. He's a hard player to evaluate, but certainly better than Konstantinov in the grand scheme of things.
I think the implication was that Coffey was better at the same time (96/97), not that Coffey was better overall. At least that's the impression I got.
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05-13-2008, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
I think the implication was that Coffey was better at the same time (96/97), not that Coffey was better overall. At least that's the impression I got.
Both. Coffey at the of Konstantinov's injury had had it. Waaaay past his prime.

But Coffey at his best wasn't good defensively, and I can't imagine Terrible Ted Lindsay being impressed by those fancy schmancy 1980's offensive defensemen.

The type of judge who would rate Vlad Konstantinov Top X defenseman ever / best player of his era / etc ... would certainly have nothing to do with Paul Coffey in any situation. If you rate Konstantinov that high, then obviously what you like in defensemen is everything Paul Coffey can't give you.

Even at his peak, Coffey wasn't nearly as good as Konstantinov in their own zone, at man-marking, phyisically, etc. It's almost a useless comparison because they're so different, but in an all-time greats context, I wouldn't touch Paul Coffey if I had other options.

Either way, look at the threads this guy starts. It's not like 99wasnotthebest had any credibility left anyway.
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05-13-2008, 04:07 PM
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I find it pretty funny when people diss guys like Konstantinov and Langway for being very poor offensively, lol. The job of a defenceman is to be physical and stop the other team from scoring. If you're just an offensive defencemen that cant play defence, you might as well play right wing cause your just wasting your time. I mean really, why was Phil Housley a defencemen, he was brutal at preventing goals.
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05-13-2008, 04:29 PM
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05-13-2008, 09:52 PM
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Shouldn't I have been the one to start this thread?
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05-14-2008, 07:23 PM
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Well no one would put Vladdy in the HHOF right now. And there is still a debate about whether or not he would have been in there with a FULL career. Ted is probably in his mind being genuine. My problem is that in the '96-97 season you had Leetch and Ozolinch as first team all-stars. And Chelios and Stevens as 2nd team all-stars. Vladdy was a 2nd teamer in '96 but miles behind Bourque and Chelios at that time. He had a great playoff and was a key member of the Wings that year but you'd be hard pressed to have him as better than a top 5 d-man in the game in '97.
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