CFL vs NFL (the great debate)

Continuing from the other thread. I like the discussion, even if it did get pissy for a while.

I'm a fan of both the NFL and the CFL. I wasn't a CFL fan until I moved to Vancouver a couple years ago and decided to start watching. After a year or so, I was hooked. Let me point out some things that might make NFL fans respect the CFL game a little more.

First off, the rule differences. Obvisously everybody knows about the 3 downs. What some people may not know is some of the other differences:
-The defense has to stay one yard back of the line of scrimmage
-Multiple recievers are allowed to be in motion, and forward motion is allowed
-12 players on the field for each team
-Only one foot has to be in bounds when recieving the ball
-The clock runs differently (I still have not figured this out...can somebody help out)

Now a lot had been said about the CFL having lesser quality players. That would be 100% true if the NFL always allowed the best players to play. The truth is, if you are drafted in the 4th round or earlier, you are given every chance to play, simply because the team has invested so much money in you. A 27 year old on the practice squad may never get a chance to start in the NFL simply because younger players keep getting placed ahead of him. There are very few 26 year old rookies in the NFL. They just get passed over and onto the next draft class.

A lot of CFLers are guys that didn't get a proper shot at the NFL right out of college, but rather than go and sell used cars, they choose to play pro football while they still can. Some guys don't have a good NFL draft combine workout, and never get another shot to prove themselves. They are just passed on. Take Mukwando Tugbeyeno (sp?), DE for the BC Lions. He set sack records at U of Berkely, but for whatever reason didn't get a lot of NFL attention (I think he got injured in his last year). As a rookie this season, he is well on his way to becoming a star in the CFL.

My last comment is that a lot of CFL players are in the CFL because they are 'tweeners'. They are too big to play one position in the NFL, but too small to play another. They have the talent, the skills, and the speed, but not the size. Take Jason Clermont of the BC Lions. He's about 6'-3", 220lbs and a WR. He is undersized to be an NFL tight end, but too slow to be a NFL wideout, but he's outstanding in the CFL because of his size and skill. There are also a lot of CFL linebackers that are too small to be a linebacker in the NFL, but too big or too slow to be safeties. In a game based on speed (the CFL), these guys are the ideal linebackers up north.

[\flamesuit on!]

I like the fact that, unlike the NFL, the CFL doesn't bare the burden of endless endorsements, commercialism and stupid money making gimmicks and flash. It's football - pure and simple.

Case in point: The Grey Cup is still a football game, not a poor excuse to sell ad space, like that *other* game.

The only reason why CFL haters bash the league is because it doesn;t have the good players like the NFL does. However, thats they only point they have.

It seems sorta pointless to have a debate on this. All of the canadians will say the CFL is better, all the Americans will say the NFL is better. I dont see much ground being gained or lost here

It seems sorta pointless to have a debate on this. All of the canadians will say the CFL is better, all the Americans will say the NFL is better. I dont see much ground being gained or lost here

Obviously you have never talked to a group of Canadians about the CFL.

I like the CFL but I think it's ludacris to say the CFL is better than the NFL. And I'm Canadian mmmmkay?

I like the fact that, unlike the NFL, the CFL doesn't bare the burden of endless endorsements, commercialism and stupid money making gimmicks and flash. It's football - pure and simple.

Case in point: The Grey Cup is still a football game, not a poor excuse to sell ad space, like that *other* game.
yeah because friday night football isn't sponsered by a burger joint :shakehead

cfl football is fun to watch but if the league could get more sponsership deals i'm sure they would take it. perhaps one day the nfl will expand in canada but with other leagues failing there (mlb,nba) i'm sure it won't be for a long time.

btw the nfl game is better because the players are more talented.

I like both...I can watch the teams I like (Argos) from the CFL alot easier than the NFL (Broncos), but that's obviously not a point, really...both leagues have their pluses, and their minuses. To me, the more professional football, the better :handclap:

yeah because friday night football isn't sponsered by a burger joint :shakehead

cfl football is fun to watch but if the league could get more sponsership deals i'm sure they would take it. perhaps one day the nfl will expand in canada but with other leagues failing there (mlb,nba) i'm sure it won't be for a long time.

btw the nfl game is better because the players are more talented.

Toronto is the only Canadian city the NFL is taking seriously.

Then again, who really considers Toronto a Canadian city these days?

The only reason why CFL haters bash the league is because it doesn;t have the good players like the NFL does. However, thats they only point they have.

And that's one hell of a point.

Personally the entertainment side of the CFL doesn't appeal to me, at all, nor does it to most Americans, but I have no problem watching it.

It's the quality of players that makes me cringe.

The truth is, if you are drafted in the 4th round or earlier, you are given every chance to play, simply because the team has invested so much money in you

That's not true.

In fact, you'll find very few rookies starting in the league.

NFL has very large rosters. Outside of the great to good players, teams will often take a young guy over an older guy because neither will be playing much and the young guy will get better.

But pretty much everything you said trying to minimize the difference in talent between the CFL and the NFL was not true. It was a bunch of bad conjecture.

In reality, the talent of the two leagues is very far apart. As far apart as MLB and AAA Minor League baseball. Or, if you like, the NHL and the AHL. The only difference is in the developmental leagues like the AHL it's closer in talent then the CFL is to the NFL, but to make up for it the CFL has more veteran players that while not as talented are in their prime.

If you want to argue in favour of one league or another for reasons of enjoyment, rules, etc., then by all means do so. But you cannot argue that the players in the CFL even compare with the overall quality of the NFL, when the source for most of the players is NCAA div. I-A football, and the NFL takes all of the top players, especially on the defensive side of things. The speed differences on the defenses is especially significant.

That may be so, but watching a CFL game, it's still good football, and it's not like there's a bunch of toddlers out there, they're professionals. Not at the level of the NFL, but who cares? The game's entertaining, good plays happen all the time...it's still good football.

Imagine NFL players with CFL rules... that would kick ass!

That may be so, but watching a CFL game, it's still good football, and it's not like there's a bunch of toddlers out there, they're professionals. Not at the level of the NFL, but who cares? The game's entertaining, good plays happen all the time...it's still good football.

While they are technically "professionals" because they get paid to play, most of them have to have jobs in the off-season.

And for those who are trying to downplay the talent gap between the NFL and CFL, save your breath. It isn't even close. Even the top 25 or so NCAA teams are more talented than the players in the CFL. The reason games are exciting is two-fold: screwy rules and the endless mistakes and turnovers. By the time players reach the NFL they have virtually eliminated mistakes.

Hey, I don't mind watching the CFL once in awhile if nothing else is on, but let's not kid ourselves here.

While they are technically "professionals" because they get paid to play, most of them have to have jobs in the off-season.

And for those who are trying to downplay the talent gap between the NFL and CFL, save your breath. It isn't even close. Even the top 25 or so NCAA teams are more talented than the players in the CFL. The reason games are exciting is two-fold: screwy rules and the endless mistakes and turnovers. By the time players reach the NFL they have virtually eliminated mistakes.

Hey, I don't mind watching the CFL once in awhile if nothing else is on, but let's not kid ourselves here.


:banghead:

So are you implying that every player from the top 25 NCAA teams goes to the NFL after they finish their college careers? No....a lot of them come to the CFL. Wouldn't that automatically make them better than the top NCAA teams? Every player in the CFL was a very good college player. Do you think these are weekend warriors?

If the gap is so far, why does the NFL have an agreement with the CFL to sign players in their option years?

The gap is nowhere what you think it is. The best NFL players are much better than the best CFL players, but the average NFL player is not that much better than the better CFL players.

the big difference people are forgetting is money, thats nothing the CFL can do

NFL has all the money, rich owners, rich tv stations spend crazy amount of money to get the rights

highest paid CFL player is Dick Dickerson at around 200,000 to 300,000 (correct me if i'm wrong)

NFL is alot more entertaining to.

:banghead:

So are you implying that every player from the top 25 NCAA teams goes to the NFL after they finish their college careers? No....a lot of them come to the CFL. Wouldn't that automatically make them better than the top NCAA teams? Every player in the CFL was a very good college player. Do you think these are weekend warriors?

If the gap is so far, why does the NFL have an agreement with the CFL to sign players in their option years?

The gap is nowhere what you think it is. The best NFL players are much better than the best CFL players, but the average NFL player is not that much better than the better CFL players.

I think you are really fooling yourself. And only yourself. The talent gap is enormous. No if's and's or but's about it. Any and every worthwhile player in college goes for the NFL. They only end up in the CFL when the fail. CFL gets the leftovers.

The best of the best are on a different stratosphere from CFL's best. In a league where Michael Bishop can have success, imagine what Dante Culpepper would do? Would Randy Moss have 60 TDs? Tomlinson rush for 4000 yards? They would be men amoung boys.

Even for those rare exceptions that do fall through the cracks of the draft. What happens when they perform well in the CFL? They get invited to an NFL camp for another chance. Even the best of the CFL, when they do play their way into a second chance in the NFL, are 50/50 at best. For every one Garcia, you have a couple dozen John Avery's who are lucky to make it out of training camp.

Why does the NFL have a relationship with the CFL? Because they don't consider them a rival. They are a farm league. There are few pro leagues out there, the NFL has a relationship with most of them. That is because the salary cap puts a strict limit on how many players a team can have under contract, the rest need to play somewhere.

Call the CFL entertaining. Call it more pure sport. Don't for a second think it is on par (or remotely comparable) with the NFL in terms of talent.

:banghead:

So are you implying that every player from the top 25 NCAA teams goes to the NFL after they finish their college careers? No....a lot of them come to the CFL. Wouldn't that automatically make them better than the top NCAA teams? Every player in the CFL was a very good college player. Do you think these are weekend warriors?

Look at a few CFL rosters and tell me how many of these players came from schools like Oklahoma, Miami, or Texas. Then compare that to how many of them played at some backwater DIII school in Nebraska and get back to me.

If the gap is so far, why does the NFL have an agreement with the CFL to sign players in their option years?

So they can sign the creme de la creme to fill out their practice squads. Aside from a few productive years from Jeff Garcia, Doug Flutie, and Warren Moon, how many CFL players have gone on to play in the Pro Bowl or even consistently be one of the better players in the league at their position?

The gap is nowhere what you think it is. The best NFL players are much better than the best CFL players, but the average NFL player is not that much better than the better CFL players.

That is probably the most laughable thing I've heard all day. Like JCD said before me, call it entertaining or whatever, but don't think for a second that the two leagues are even anywhere close as far as talent goes. It is like night and day.

Call the CFL entertaining. Call it more pure sport. Don't for a second think it is on par (or remotely comparable) with the NFL in terms of talent.

Lets do some math.

There are 32 NFL teams, and a 7 round entry draft. That means 224 players are selected every year.

There are 32 NFL teams, with rosters of what...50 players? That equals 1600 players.

Lets say 3/4 of the drafted players are signed each year. That is about 170 new NFL players each year, yet the number of spots available in the NFL doesn't increase every year.

:eek: Where do these players go? Some retire, but maybe some of them decide they actually like football and want to keep playing?

You seem to think that there are exactly 1600 good football players in the world, and number 1601 is a gigantic drop off.

Keep in mind that there are only 9 CFL teams and (I think) around 15-20 import roster spots available per team. It doesn't take that many players to defect to the CFL to become a large percentage.

Don't compare the CFL to the AHL. The AHL is purely a developmental league there are rules stating that only a few players can have a lot of AHL experience. The CFL is a pro league.

Accept the fact that the CFL is the number 2 football league in the world, and there are an insane number of people who play football. I'm not saying the CFL is comparable, I'm just saying the drop off is not as great as you seem to think so.

Oh...and Bishop has done nothing in the CFL.

Don't compare the CFL to the AHL. The AHL is purely a developmental league there are rules stating that only a few players can have a lot of AHL experience. The CFL is a pro league.



I would argue that the AHL is closer in talent to the NHL than the CFL to the NFL...at least many of the players in the AHL have had or will have a cup of coffee at least in the NHL. How many CFL players can say they've had the same?

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, apparently.

Look at a few CFL rosters and tell me how many of these players came from schools like Oklahoma, Miami, or Texas. Then compare that to how many of them played at some backwater DIII school in Nebraska and get back to me.

Here's the BC Lions import players:

1 PRINTERS, Casey I QB 1 Florida A&M
2 YOUNG, Sam I CB 1 Illinois State
3 THELWELL, Ryan N SB 3 Minnesota
13 WYNN, Spergon I QB 1 Southwest Texas State
16 CARMAZZI, Giovanni I QB 0 Hofstra
17 LEWIS, Derrick I DB 6 Jackson State
19 JACKSON, Paris N WR 1 Utah
21 BURKE, Fabian N DB 3 Toledo
23 WASHINGTON, Mark I DB 7 Rutgers
24 AUSTIN, Da'Shann I DB 3 Southwestern Oklahoma State
26 KIDD, Carl I LB 4 Arkansas
27 LINSCOMB, Eddie I RB 0 Southwest Missouri State
28 GREEN, Lyle N RB 3 Toledo
31 MARSH, Dante I CB 0 Fresno State
33 LOCHBAUM, Kelly N LB 7 Northern Arizona
35 FLOYD, Otis I LB 4 Louisville
36 GAVADZA, Jason N FB 0 Kent State
51 SIMPSON, Barrin I LB 3 Mississippi State
58 HEASMAN, David N OL 6 Northern Arizona
60 McFADDEN, Marques I OL 0 Arizona
68 MANTYKA, Cory N T 11 Jamestown
69 MOORE, Fred I OT 1 Florida A&M
81 SIMON, Geroy I SB 5 Maryland
84 LOCKETT, Aaron I WR 0 Kansas State
85 BRAZZELL, Chris I WR 3 Angelo State
86 CUTOLO, Frank I WR 1 Eastern Illinois
90 TUGBENYOH, Mawuko I DE 0 California Berkeley
92 BOOKER, Dante I DL 0 Auburn
93 PILON, Marc N LB 5 Syracuse
95 LEGAULT, Cameron N DT 5 Carleton
96 WILLIAMS, Tyrone I DT 2 Wyoming
97 JOHNSON, Brent N DL 3 Ohio State

I would say the split b/w 'backwater DIII teams' and the big schools is about 50/50 or better.

It seems sorta pointless to have a debate on this. All of the canadians will say the CFL is better, all the Americans will say the NFL is better. I dont see much ground being gained or lost here

I only disagree with the fact that "all" Canadians will say the CFL is better. Me and all my friends depise the CFL but love the NFL with a passion. In fact a few of us are heading down to Buffalo to see a game in October.

Lets do some math.

There are 32 NFL teams, and a 7 round entry draft. That means 224 players are selected every year.

There are 32 NFL teams, with rosters of what...50 players? That equals 1600 players.

Lets say 3/4 of the drafted players are signed each year. That is about 170 new NFL players each year, yet the number of spots available in the NFL doesn't increase every year.

:eek: Where do these players go? Some retire, but maybe some of them decide they actually like football and want to keep playing?

You seem to think that there are exactly 1600 good football players in the world, and number 1601 is a gigantic drop off.

Keep in mind that there are only 9 CFL teams and (I think) around 15-20 import roster spots available per team. It doesn't take that many players to defect to the CFL to become a large percentage.

Don't compare the CFL to the AHL. The AHL is purely a developmental league there are rules stating that only a few players can have a lot of AHL experience. The CFL is a pro league.

Accept the fact that the CFL is the number 2 football league in the world, and there are an insane number of people who play football. I'm not saying the CFL is comparable, I'm just saying the drop off is not as great as you seem to think so.

Oh...and Bishop has done nothing in the CFL.

Lets reason this out. Lets do some more math.

An NFL team will bring in around 80 guys to their NFL camps. Of that, only 61 (plus injured reserve) will make the cut.

Of a teams 61 man roster, only about 20 or so spots are up for grabs each year. Right off the bat, you are excluding the top 66 or so percent of the talent pool. Those are the guys whose jobs are not in doubt. The top notch talent.

Of those 20 available spots, you have journeymen vets, golden year pending retirees and rookies fighting to make the cut. Take a conservative 80 or so players in camp, 40 players fighting for 20 spots. The 20 that fail to stick represent, at best, the bottom 25% of the NFL talent pool.

Of that bottom 25%, the vast majority of vets will choose to sit home as a free agent and wait for a call rather than risk injury playing anywhere but the NFL. Count how many tenured NFL vets you see in the Arena Leagues, NFL Europe and the CFL. All three combined, I bet you struggle to to find two dozen. In other words, the CFL is being feed by the bottom 25% cast off from the NFL that do not have enough clout to go anywhere else. The 25% that head to the CFL do not even represent the best of that 25%, only the ones without enough experience to fall back. Again, taken conservatively, say the vets cut in camp who sit the season account for only 5%.

Long story short, the CFL draws it's talent from the the bottom 20% of the talent pool. Now, just take a 'median' value for each league's players. The NFL average is the 62.5 percentile (median for the 60 of the 80 in camp kept). The CFL median is around the 10 percentile mark (bottom 25% minus the tenured vets). Doesn't take a statistician to realize that 62.5 is substantially higher than 10. Yes, the drop off in talent is that great indeed. An average NFLer would be a stud in the CFL.

Here's the BC Lions import players:
13 WYNN, Spergon I QB 1 Southwest Texas State
16 CARMAZZI, Giovanni I QB 0 Hofstra

You will have a tough time being taken seriously defending the talent of the league when you whip out the likes of these two. If not for the CFL, they would be parking cars.

I prefer CFL, mainly because there's a team in my city (Ottawa) and I can go see games and such, whereas in the NFL it's all pretty far away from here (Go Niners, though). While the CFL does have some talented guys, it is not even in the same stratosphere as the NFL in terms of talent. What really sets the CFL over the top for me is the rule differences. They make for a much quicker, more fluid, and exciting games.

So essentially, the NFL is better talent-wise, while the rules of the CFL make for a better game (most of the time).

Regardless, though, most Americans are going to support NFL and most Canadians will support the CFL because it's more fun to cheer for a local team than it is to cheer for a team thats 500 miles away.

You will have a tough time being taken seriously defending the talent of the league when you whip out the likes of these two. If not for the CFL, they would be parking cars.

Our 3rd and 4th string QBs? Who both were drafted fairly high in the NFL?

Your point is...?

Lets reason this out. Lets do some more math.

An NFL team will bring in around 80 guys to their NFL camps. Of that, only 61 (plus injured reserve) will make the cut.

Of a teams 61 man roster, only about 20 or so spots are up for grabs each year. Right off the bat, you are excluding the top 66 or so percent of the talent pool. Those are the guys whose jobs are not in doubt. The top notch talent.

Of those 20 available spots, you have journeymen vets, golden year pending retirees and rookies fighting to make the cut. Take a conservative 80 or so players in camp, 40 players fighting for 20 spots. The 20 that fail to stick represent, at best, the bottom 25% of the NFL talent pool.

Of that bottom 25%, the vast majority of vets will choose to sit home as a free agent and wait for a call rather than risk injury playing anywhere but the NFL. Count how many tenured NFL vets you see in the Arena Leagues, NFL Europe and the CFL. All three combined, I bet you struggle to to find two dozen. In other words, the CFL is being feed by the bottom 25% cast off from the NFL that do not have enough clout to go anywhere else. The 25% that head to the CFL do not even represent the best of that 25%, only the ones without enough experience to fall back. Again, taken conservatively, say the vets cut in camp who sit the season account for only 5%.

Long story short, the CFL draws it's talent from the the bottom 20% of the talent pool. Now, just take a 'median' value for each league's players. The NFL average is the 62.5 percentile (median for the 60 of the 80 in camp kept). The CFL median is around the 10 percentile mark (bottom 25% minus the tenured vets). Doesn't take a statistician to realize that 62.5 is substantially higher than 10. Yes, the drop off in talent is that great indeed. An average NFLer would be a stud in the CFL.

All of that I agree with, in fact that is what I said, except of the median crap (which doesn't fly with me).

Can you tell me exactly what makes one player better than another? This is real life, not Madden. There are no overall ratings, just football players.

Even the top 25 or so NCAA teams are more talented than the players in the CFL. The reason games are exciting is two-fold: screwy rules and the endless mistakes and turnovers.

Although I agree that the calibre of players in the NFL is significantly superior to the calibre of players in the CFL, I strongly diasagree with the above. You have to be on crack to think that the worst CFL team isn't better than the best NCAA team. Also, the rules aren't "screwy." In fact, I believe "Canadian football" rules were created first and the American rules are just a bastardization (or improvement, whatever your own personal taste).

Can you tell me exactly what makes one player better than another?

god given talent, Natural ability, a right mind for the game. Knowing that the NFL will pick you in the top 5, and the CFL wont even consider scouting you because they know you wont go there?

Seriously if you need this explained to you, then trying to point\counter point which league is better with you may be a bit counter-productive.

Watching the NFL is like watching someone painting a house. Watching the CFL is like watching someone painting a picture.

Both are boring, but one is less boring.

Too much running in the NFL. Pass the damn ball already.

All of that I agree with, in fact that is what I said, except of the median crap (which doesn't fly with me).

Can you tell me exactly what makes one player better than another? This is real life, not Madden. There are no overall ratings, just football players.

That 'median crap' is just common sense. If one league draws their players from the upper 75% of available players and the other 25%, to say that the average player from each are close in talent just doesn't add up. Think of college classes. Johns Hopkins is going to take the top-10% of a graduating class. Pine City Community College is going to get students that couldn't get into the Ivy Leagues. Now, who has the smarter average (median) student? These are real people too, no Madden ratings. Going to defend Pine City over Johns Hopkins? Same principle.

What makes players better than one another? Talent. Really, if you need that explained, you are hopeless. What makes Gretzky better than Daigle? They don't have a rating either, want to defend that one too?

The CFL gets players that couldn't make it in the NFL. Many of which don't have the measurables to succeed in the NFL game. Too small or too slow. Just because they had success in college doesn't mean that will translate to the NFL. Look at Hockey. Derek Plante was a better college player than Paul Kariya, who was the better pro?

Even then, if the CFLer has enough success, they will get a crack at an NFL camp to see how they do against the top competition. For players (and the leagues for that matter), the CFL is a stepping stone to the NFL, not competition. Like it or not, it is indeed football's AHL.

For players (and the leagues for that matter), the CFL is a stepping stone to the NFL, not competition.

Agreed, although I don't consder it a developmental league. Teams don't send players to the CFL. If players need more playing time to develop, the go to NFL Europe, who has an agreement to development raw talent for the NFL.

However, there are players in the CFL who went on to storied careers, but just couldn't hack it in the NFL. Mike Pringle for example. I understand he's one of the best to ever play in Canada. Pringle was drafted into the NFL by Atlanta in 1990 and played three games as a rookie. He got cut the following year in training camp. He couldn't land a roster spot with Denver a few years later either, so he stayed in Canada. Granted, I've heard he could break the rushing record up there, but do you honestly see him averaging over 100 yds a game in the NFL? IMO, I don't think so. He had two shots, and couldn't cut it.

Players in the CFL I believe go up there and try to perform well with the hopes of being picked up by an NFL team. Take Ricky Ray. He had two good seasons and one Grey Cup with Edmonton, and now he's fighting for the backup spot behind Chad Pennington in New York. If he makes it, good for him, he might do well here. If he gets cut, he could sign on somewhere else and possibly go on to good things with another team in the NFL, or end up back in the CFL where he might put up great numbers. Who knows.

In the NFL, you either hack it, or you don't. If you don't, there's always someone right behind you to take your job.

That 'median crap' is just common sense. If one league draws their players from the upper 75% of available players and the other 25%, to say that the average player from each are close in talent just doesn't add up. Think of college classes. Johns Hopkins is going to take the top-10% of a graduating class. Pine City Community College is going to get students that couldn't get into the Ivy Leagues. Now, who has the smarter average (median) student? These are real people too, no Madden ratings. Going to defend Pine City over Johns Hopkins? Same principle.

What makes players better than one another? Talent. Really, if you need that explained, you are hopeless. What makes Gretzky better than Daigle? They don't have a rating either, want to defend that one too?


Football players, more so than any other sport, are succesful not because of talent but because of size and strength, except for the skill positions. If you are big, can run fast, and can hit hard, you can play football. Talent is secondary in most positions, aside from QB, RB, and WR (but size also plays a huge roll in success). You can teach a man to chase a ball and tackle somebody, but you can't teach a lot of the skills in most other sports. (I'm talking about the average to below average players, not the superstars)


There are obviously going to be players not in the NFL that are faster and have more talent than NFL players, but lack the size. Do you agree with me on this?

If you do, than you can understand that there are players that are talented in the CFL.

It's not like there is a universal football player ranking list from 1 to 10,000.

Every year during CFL training camps, I read a dozen times in the papers about players coming up to canada and being amazed at the level of competition.

god given talent, Natural ability, a right mind for the game. Knowing that the NFL will pick you in the top 5, and the CFL wont even consider scouting you because they know you wont go there?

Seriously if you need this explained to you, then trying to point\counter point which league is better with you may be a bit counter-productive.

I'm not trying to argue that the CFL is better than the NFL. I'm saying the talent gap is not as huge as some people seem to think. They somehow think that there are only enough talented football players in the world to play in the NFL. After that there is a dramatic drop off.

Can you tell me what makes the 800th best player better than the 801st best player? Of course not, that is why they invented the word 'intangibles'. The NFL got several players from the XFL. What does that say?

What is really pissing me off now is I'm arguing with people who have probably never watched a full CFL game in their life, and if they have they watched one bad game and decided that is it. If I had never watched an NFL game in my life, and then only watched the Bears play the Cardinals last season, I wouldn't have been very impressed.

This is like me arguing the talent gap b/w the Russian Superleague and the NHL, except I wouldn't do that because I haven't seen the RSL play, and they play a different style of game.

I can watch either, but I go out my way to watch one because I actually have a team in the CFL. That helps a lot. I find it hard to be too into say, the Dallas Cowboys when I have a team that can play quality football (no, not NFL quality, but still a damn entertaining game) right in my own backyard.

As for 3 vs 4 downs, I prefer 3, but I'm Canadian so maybe I've been brainwashed. I just find the passing game more exciting than the running game unless it's like a 60 yard run.

Football players, more so than any other sport, are succesful not because of talent but because of size and strength, except for the skill positions. If you are big, can run fast, and can hit hard, you can play football. Talent is secondary in most positions, aside from QB, RB, and WR (but size also plays a huge roll in success). You can teach a man to chase a ball and tackle somebody, but you can't teach a lot of the skills in most other sports. (I'm talking about the average to below average players, not the superstars)

There are obviously going to be players not in the NFL that are faster and have more talent than NFL players, but lack the size. Do you agree with me on this?

If you do, than you can understand that there are players that are talented in the CFL.

It's not like there is a universal football player ranking list from 1 to 10,000.

Every year during CFL training camps, I read a dozen times in the papers about players coming up to canada and being amazed at the level of competition.

I get the very distinct impression that you know very little about the sports you are trying to discuss.

Football players are successful because of their size and speed more than their talent? No offense intended, but that is a rather clueless statement.

Have you ever played the line? Either side? Being big and strong gives you an advantage, but that is not where it ends. Anybody can workout to increase strength. What seperates the Odgen's from the Page's isn't just size and strength. It is leverage. It is reading cues. It is knowing your blocking adjustments. It is remembering the plays and recognizing audibles. It is having the footwork (a physical talent that is exceedingly hard to develop) to hit a LB in the open or make a stay with a speeding defensive end. Ever meet an NFL linemen in person? When you do, you will get an appreciation for what they possess. They look like a different species altogether. People are not suppose to be that big and still that agile. Not saying they are going to the ballet, but they move like somebody half their size. That is a talent just as much as skating and shooting are talents for hockey. To say it is just size and strength is painfully naive. It goes beyond the physical measurabvles though, the offensive linemen are some of the smartest players on the football team.

For defensive linemen, athleticism is a premium. It isn't that they are just big. It is that they are big AND fast AND know what they are doing. Brock Lesner is big and fast, he is a longshot to be anything more than practice fodder. Chris Hovan is neither that big nor that fast. Why is he successful? Because he is a talented and natural football player. He reads offensive linemen and picks up on their gives.

To belittle the talents of NFL players just doesn't add up.

Are their smaller faster guys in the CFL? Sure. Doesn't mean they could do jack against NFL competition. Why? Because the NFL competition is not only fast, but much bigger. It is like a boxer going to higher weight division. He may be the best welterweight in the world, but he is going to get killed fighting heavyweights. It is the level of competition. They do not have what it takes to compete in the NFL. That they are successful in the CFL is irrelevent because that league isn't as competitive. They don't have to be 6'5 and 260+ pounds because their competition isn't.

I don't know why you still persist with the 'list of top 10,000 talents' stuff. It is just common sense. Football players everywhere aspire to be in the NFL. They don't turn to other leagues until the NFL turns them down. The best and brightest talents are going to the NFL. End of story. I even explain that using your numbers theory. When one school is getting the first crack at all the prospects, the schools after them are not going to have as much talent. I don't see how anybody can honestly state otherwise. The talent differential isn't even close. An average NFLer would be a star in the CFL. A star CFLer is lucky to be an average NFLer. I am sure that their are a few CFLers that could have success if they were in the NFL. But that is a select few and not a uniform statement. However, a guy can flat-out suck and being an abysmal failure in the NFL and still manage to stick around in the CFL (Wynn for example). That screams about the talent differential. CFL studs are lucky to be back-ups in the NFL. I am sure that if you took the best the CFL had to offer, they could outperform some NFLers. But what NFLers are we talking about? Overwhelmingly, marginal players and back-ups. We are talking about the bottom half of a team's roster. If you don't see that as a talent differential, I don't know what will.

Why would articles talk up the level of competition? Well, what else are they supposed to say?

The talent gap between the CFL and NFL is pretty huge, I don't see why there is such a debate. If any of the CFL players could make it on an NFL squad, they'll be gone in a second. Not to say there aren't some talented players, but chances are they were too small to succeed in the NFL or don't possess NFL talent.

In rare cases, the CFL will catch good former college players that for some reason got overlooked; Moon, Flutie (didn't he begin with the USFL though?), Rocket Ismail. Or some go there to try and rehibilitate their career - Lawrence Phillips (which failed).

It's like the NHL, it's the best league because the best players play in it, that's why most of the money is in it too. Jiri Dopita was considered the the best player not in the NHL and couldn't cut it when he got here.

AHL players aren't playing the NHL for a reason, while good enough for that league, they aren't good enough to play at the highest level.

I enjoy watching them both. Both have their own plus and minuses, and I like having two different versions of the same game to watch.

I get the very distinct impression that you know very little about the sports you are trying to discuss.

Football players are successful because of their size and speed more than their talent? No offense intended, but that is a rather clueless statement.

Have you ever played the line? Either side? Being big and strong gives you an advantage, but that is not where it ends. Anybody can workout to increase strength. What seperates the Odgen's from the Page's isn't just size and strength. It is leverage. It is reading cues. It is knowing your blocking adjustments. It is remembering the plays and recognizing audibles. It is having the footwork (a physical talent that is exceedingly hard to develop) to hit a LB in the open or make a stay with a speeding defensive end. Ever meet an NFL linemen in person? When you do, you will get an appreciation for what they possess. They look like a different species altogether. People are not suppose to be that big and still that agile. Not saying they are going to the ballet, but they move like somebody half their size. That is a talent just as much as skating and shooting are talents for hockey. To say it is just size and strength is painfully naive. It goes beyond the physical measurabvles though, the offensive linemen are some of the smartest players on the football team.

For defensive linemen, athleticism is a premium. It isn't that they are just big. It is that they are big AND fast AND know what they are doing. Brock Lesner is big and fast, he is a longshot to be anything more than practice fodder. Chris Hovan is neither that big nor that fast. Why is he successful? Because he is a talented and natural football player. He reads offensive linemen and picks up on their gives.

To belittle the talents of NFL players just doesn't add up.


Did you even read my post? I said I was not talking about the superstars, yet you bring up Ogden.

Tell me how many people you know over 350lbs. Now what is the average weight of an offensive lineman in the NFL? 400 pounders are not that uncommon anymore. I am not belittling them in the slightest. Now what if you're 275 lbs and good at all the things you talked about (speed, strength, athletisism, smarts)? Will NFL teams give you a shot? You might get a training camp invite, but to make a roster is very rare. This is the type of player I'm talking about. Not just the O Line, but a lot of the other power positions.


Are their smaller faster guys in the CFL? Sure. Doesn't mean they could do jack against NFL competition. Why? Because the NFL competition is not only fast, but much bigger. It is like a boxer going to higher weight division. He may be the best welterweight in the world, but he is going to get killed fighting heavyweights. It is the level of competition. They do not have what it takes to compete in the NFL. That they are successful in the CFL is irrelevent because that league isn't as competitive. They don't have to be 6'5 and 260+ pounds because their competition isn't.

I don't know why you still persist with the 'list of top 10,000 talents' stuff. It is just common sense. Football players everywhere aspire to be in the NFL. They don't turn to other leagues until the NFL turns them down. The best and brightest talents are going to the NFL. End of story. I even explain that using your numbers theory. When one school is getting the first crack at all the prospects, the schools after them are not going to have as much talent. I don't see how anybody can honestly state otherwise. The talent differential isn't even close. An average NFLer would be a star in the CFL. A star CFLer is lucky to be an average NFLer. I am sure that their are a few CFLers that could have success if they were in the NFL. But that is a select few and not a uniform statement. However, a guy can flat-out suck and being an abysmal failure in the NFL and still manage to stick around in the CFL (Wynn for example). That screams about the talent differential. CFL studs are lucky to be back-ups in the NFL. I am sure that if you took the best the CFL had to offer, they could outperform some NFLers. But what NFLers are we talking about? Overwhelmingly, marginal players and back-ups. We are talking about the bottom half of a team's roster. If you don't see that as a talent differential, I don't know what will.

I don't see where I dissagreed with you on any of that. Somebody before said the NFL/CFL is like comparing boys to men. I agree with what you say here.

I just want to say that playing the line is not the brainless, talentless job that some people think it is. The line is one of the most underrated, thankless jobs in sports.

Its not you screw up. :shakehead, The defenses in the NFL are just so much tougher in the NFL than the CFL. In the CFL if you have one dominant player, you can depend on him. Which doesn't take team work. The Fair catch rule point you brought up was dumb, it's to help risk injury. I would love to see you try to catch a punt with Ray Lewis running at you. Damn straight your going to call that Fair Catch.

These CFLers seem to like the CFL because of high scoring. I mean sometimes there fun to watch but every game, come on. NFL you get that mixture of High Scoring, and tough play. If high scoring is what you like than I guess the AFL is just as good.

Watching the NFL is like watching someone painting a house. Watching the CFL is like watching someone painting a picture.

Both are boring, but one is less boring.

Too much running in the NFL. Pass the damn ball already.

Watch the Colts?

These CFLers seem to like the CFL because of high scoring. I mean sometimes there fun to watch but every game, come on. NFL you get that mixture of High Scoring, and tough play. If high scoring is what you like than I guess the AFL is just as good.

We like the CFL because it's entertaining. No one mentioned high scoring: It's entertaining football.

We like the CFL because it's entertaining. No one mentioned high scoring: It's entertaining football.

You did in the other thread.

Its not you screw up. :shakehead, The defenses in the NFL are just so much tougher in the NFL than the CFL. In the CFL if you have one dominant player, you can depend on him. Which doesn't take team work. The Fair catch rule point you brought up was dumb, it's to help risk injury. I would love to see you try to catch a punt with Ray Lewis running at you. Damn straight your going to call that Fair Catch.

Cause the Ravens don't depend on Ray Lewis, right?

And who said anything about the fair catch rule?

I disagree.

The players are more talented in the NFL, but the on-field product just does not appeal to me. The only way you don't get a first down with 4 downs is if you screw up somehow. Three downs guarantees exciting plays. Put that together with the shorter field, 40 second play clock (it's 20 seconds in the CFL) and the fair catch rule... you have one boring game, despite the more talented players.

Thats where it was brought up also, they don't depend on Ray Lewis, he brings that defense together but when you got, Peter Boulware, Ed Hartwell, Ed Reed, Chris McCalister,Terrell Suggs, you don't have to depend on Ray Lewis but he is a very nice asset to the Defense.

You did in the other thread.

It's entertaining...if high-scoring is part of it, so be it. Not like we're all midnless drones who love to see OMGTOUCHDOWNZ and that's it, like you seem to be implying.

Did you even read my post? I said I was not talking about the superstars, yet you bring up Ogden.

Tell me how many people you know over 350lbs. Now what is the average weight of an offensive lineman in the NFL? 400 pounders are not that uncommon anymore. I am not belittling them in the slightest. Now what if you're 275 lbs and good at all the things you talked about (speed, strength, athletisism, smarts)? Will NFL teams give you a shot? You might get a training camp invite, but to make a roster is very rare. This is the type of player I'm talking about. Not just the O Line, but a lot of the other power positions.

Now I know you don't follow the NFL.

400 pounders are not that uncommon? Name me one. Just one. Show me a single site that has a players weight at 400 pounds.

350 pounds is big, even by NFL standards. 310 is more the norm for the offense, considerably less for defensive line (big Nose Tackles are offset by small speed ends).

What makes those NFL linemen so talented is that they are 310 pounds, and still move like that 275 pound CFLer. It comes down to simple physics. It is easier to move 275 pounds than it is 310 pounds. If an NFL team thinks that 275 pounder can bulk up to a sufficient range (285+ for the offensive line) and still maintain his mobility, they will give him a shot. If not, then he is that welterweight in a heavyweight division.

I brought up Odgen because I doubted you would recognize a name like Withrow. A quality back-up center who lacks those 'measurables' and is in fact one of those bulked up 275 pounders you claim can't find work.

I don't see where I dissagreed with you on any of that. Somebody before said the NFL/CFL is like comparing boys to men. I agree with what you say here.

Thing is, what I am saying here is that it is men among boys. You have the Varsity squad taking on the freshmen team. Some of those freshmen might be able to back-up a varsity position, but the overall talent differential is substantial. If the San Diego Chargers played in the CFL, they would be a dynasty. In the NFL, they are push-overs.

Cause the Ravens don't depend on Ray Lewis, right?

And who said anything about the fair catch rule?

Try another example.

Barry Sanders. Arguably the best back to ever pick up a football.

Because he never had a worthwhile team around him, he has never won a single play-off game in his life.

Look at Tomlinson today. He is the team. The team sucks. Not because of Tomlinson but because you need a team of players to succeed in the NFL.

Lewis is the best LB in the game. While he is a cornerstone, the Ravens still couldn't get anything done without Suggs, McAllister, Bouleware, Reed, Odgen, Mulitalo and Jamal Lewis.

His point was that in the CFL, one player can make a team. In the NFL, one player can only make the Pro Bowl.

These CFLers seem to like the CFL because of high scoring. I mean sometimes there fun to watch but every game, come on. NFL you get that mixture of High Scoring, and tough play. If high scoring is what you like than I guess the AFL is just as good.

Where is this myth about the CFL being high scoring every game coming from? Please explain that.

And comparing the high scoring of the CFL and high scoring of Arena football is insane. Go ahead and compare apples and hamburgers next. The CFL has defense; you need to watch more than a handfull of games to see that.


May aswell close this thread before it ends up like the other thread. NFL is good because the best players are playing in the best league in the world...CFL is good because of exciting product that it has. :banghead:

Toronto-Montreal, Aug 12, 2004
Final score: 22-10 Montreal

Barnburner :banghead:

edit : also...with the St Louis Rams, New England Patriots, Indianapolis Colts, etc...NOBODY complains about how they're faster, higher-scoring teams....god forbid that anyway :shakehead

I watch both.

I'm much more of an NFL fan even though the CFL game is more exciting. You don't see many CFL snoozefests, in the NFL it's a constant. NFL just has more appeal.

Now I know you don't follow the NFL.

400 pounders are not that uncommon? Name me one. Just one. Show me a single site that has a players weight at 400 pounds.

350 pounds is big, even by NFL standards. 310 is more the norm for the offense, considerably less for defensive line (big Nose Tackles are offset by small speed ends).

What makes those NFL linemen so talented is that they are 310 pounds, and still move like that 275 pound CFLer. It comes down to simple physics. It is easier to move 275 pounds than it is 310 pounds. If an NFL team thinks that 275 pounder can bulk up to a sufficient range (285+ for the offensive line) and still maintain his mobility, they will give him a shot. If not, then he is that welterweight in a heavyweight division.


Dammit. The funny thing is I'm a huge NFL fan. I should have known better than to open my mouth without checking first.

Ok, replace 400 lbs with 350, and the average weight of a lineman is ~325.

Instead of a 275 lb CFLer, replace that with a 260 pounder. Same comparison. I'm just stating that the NFL is all about size and power, not just skill and smarts.

Oh, and BTW, the Chargers D might be good in the CFL, but their offense is awful (aside from LT, of course. But he would have to get +5 every carry in the CFL to be dominant. It's just not a running league). I don't think Brees will be a good QB at any level.

This argument is like teaching a brick to play fetch.

I guess the NFL is just full of idiot GMs, because they have scouts at every CFL game. You should really look into becoming an NFL coach, because you obviously wouldn't waste your time with such children.

Oh, and BTW, the Chargers D might be good in the CFL, but their offense is awful (aside from LT, of course. But he would have to get +5 every carry in the CFL to be dominant. It's just not a running league). I don't think Brees will be a good QB at any level.


Just did a quick search on ESPN...

Tomlinson's career yards/carry is 4.5. I don't want to go spouting off here because I have seen probably three total CFL games in my lifetime, but if LT can average 4.5 per carry in the NFL, my guess is that he would average far more than 5 yards/carry in the CFL.

Just did a quick search on ESPN...

Tomlinson's career yards/carry is 4.5. I don't want to go spouting off here because I have seen probably three total CFL games in my lifetime, but if LT can average 4.5 per carry in the NFL, my guess is that he would average far more than 5 yards/carry in the CFL.

The thing with the CFL is you only have 2 downs to get a first down, so as soon as you get stuffed on first down, you have to pass, so basically LT's touches would get cut severely. In the NFL, he runs for 2 yards, 3 yards, 9 yards, first down. That averages to 5 yards a carry.

The running game in the CFL is used to set up the run, whereas a lot of NFL teams do the opposite.

Dammit. The funny thing is I'm a huge NFL fan. I should have known better than to open my mouth without checking first.

Ok, replace 400 lbs with 350, and the average weight of a lineman is ~325.

Instead of a 275 lb CFLer, replace that with a 260 pounder. Same comparison. I'm just stating that the NFL is all about size and power, not just skill and smarts.

Oh, and BTW, the Chargers D might be good in the CFL, but their offense is awful (aside from LT, of course. But he would have to get +5 every carry in the CFL to be dominant. It's just not a running league). I don't think Brees will be a good QB at any level.

This argument is like teaching a brick to play fetch.

I guess the NFL is just full of idiot GMs, because they have scouts at every CFL game. You should really look into becoming an NFL coach, because you obviously wouldn't waste your time with such children.

What kind of assbackwards logic is that? Because the NFL sends scouts there, they must be almost as talented? NFL Scouts are are DII schools too. Saw one at a University of Minnesota Duluth too. Does that mean they are headed to the Rose Bowl? Look out Miami, here comes the Bulldogs!!!

But you did get one thing right, this is teaching a brick to fetch. The drop off of talent from the NFL to the CFL isn't much indeed. Now bring me back that stick.

The running game in the CFL is used to set up the run, whereas a lot of NFL teams do the opposite.

Could you clarify this one for me? It sounds to me like you meant that the CFL teams use the pass to set up the run?

Again, please take into account my ignorance of the Canadian game, I just feel that a running back of LT's caliber would undoubtedly dominate in the CFL. He also had 100 receptions last year.

JCD... I think buddy's argument is that the CFL players are almost as skilled as NFL players, but they can't play in the NFL because they are undersized.

I see the point, but it's not true. In some exceptional cases, maybe... like Doug Flutie.

Just argue that and then we can cut down this debate to 2 pages and not 20...

Could you clarify this one for me? It sounds to me like you meant that the CFL teams use the pass to set up the run?

Again, please take into account my ignorance of the Canadian game, I just feel that a running back of LT's caliber would undoubtedly dominate in the CFL. He also had 100 receptions last year.

Oops....yeah that's what I meant.

The running game is not used as much here. If a running back gets 20-25 carries a game, that is a TON.

LT would dominate up here, there is no doubt about that at all. He just wouldn't get 2500 yards or anything ridiculous because teams just don't run that much.

What kind of assbackwards logic is that? Because the NFL sends scouts there, they must be almost as talented? NFL Scouts are are DII schools too. Saw one at a University of Minnesota Duluth too. Does that mean they are headed to the Rose Bowl? Look out Miami, here comes the Bulldogs!!!


:banghead: :banghead:

Follow me carefully. If NFL scouts thought there were no NFL calibre players in the CFL, would they send scouts up here? After all, these are all players who were scouted in college. NFL players have come out of DivII schools as well, but that is a different kettle of fish altogether. That's scouting amatuer players.

:banghead: :banghead:

Follow me carefully. If NFL scouts thought there were no NFL calibre players in the CFL, would they send scouts up here? After all, these are all players who were scouted in college. NFL players have come out of DivII schools as well, but that is a different kettle of fish altogether. That's scouting amatuer players.

No one doubts there are some hidden gems in the CFL.

There's also some NHL calibur players in the AHL.
And they ain't close in talent.

Just like the CFL isn't close to the NFL.

The CFL is full of NFL castoffs. The NFL has players that aren't good enough to do anything but be a no one on special teams that would star in the CFL.

Most of the players in the CFL were asshats in college. Most. Don't come back and show me one wideout or something that was good. Cause I'll just come back and show you 5 asshats for that one.

Just get over it. It's a B league. Nothing wrong with you liking it. But you're just not doing anything but bouncing from excuse to excuse to try and justify your outlandish claims.

I don't think the CFL is comparable to the AHL. I think it's more like the RSL. The RSL definately is weaker than the NHL, but not temendously so (it's certainly stronger than the AHL), and there are alot of great players in that league. There are great players in the RSL who can't make the NHL, but there are also very good players in the NHL who wouldn't necessarily have tremendous success in the RSL.

The key point is the difference in rules, and in style of play. The CFL simply requires a different skill set than the NFL. Although in regards to the NFL skill set, CFL players might be far weaker than NFL players, but I don't think CFL players are that far back in terms of the CFL skill set.

Take a look at soccer. Juan Sebastian Veron, Hernan Crespo, and Adrian Mutu were worldclass players in the Serie A, which is considered stornger than the English premiership. However, when these players went to England, they were total duds. The relevance is that it's hard to compare Serie A players to Premiership players because the two leagues have two different standards of quality. That difference is even greater in regards to the CFL/NFL comparison because of the rules differences.

I think comparing the CFL to the AHL is assinine. The AHL has the same rules as the NHL. It is a developmental league. All AHL teams are affilaited with NHL teams so that their best players can be called up at any time. The AHL hardly compares to the CFL at all.

Most of the players in the CFL were asshats in college. Most. Don't come back and show me one wideout or something that was good. Cause I'll just come back and show you 5 asshats for that one.

:shakehead You win the ignorant comment of the day award!

Every player in the CFL that played in the NCAA had a good NCAA career, otherwise they would not be getting paid to play football.

If there was any way of proving this, I would list 50 players for you. I posted all BC's import players earlier. You find me the 5:1 asshat ratio.

Imagine NFL players with CFL rules... that would kick ass!


agreed!!!

Yep most people around here are ignorant.

Imagine an NFL Team playing with CFL rules. The game dynamic would change completely. You can't compare the CFL and the NFL you just can't.

The people saying the talent is worse, is very wrong, you can't compare them. Not even close. These guys are faster and stronger and blah blah blah....Prove it. Prove that Lineback A is strong then Lineback B and that DT A is faster the DT B.

Regardless even if you did add up ALL the numbers the game is too different to weight with each other.

Think of Michael Vick, now give him TONS of more room on the feild.....I bet he'd pass for a lot more yards. There would be more scoring. There would be MORE room to cover. Think of running around a feild MUCH bigger then the NFL. Then take a "huge" linebacker and have him track down Barry Sanders...wouldn't happen.

Same thing for CFLers take a smaller CFL player and tell him to line up on the line, he'd be killed. But he also wouldn't have to run as much. It's a different game totally.

How do you know that Michael Vick, or John Elway would be as good in the CFL? You can't. You can only assume. That's ALL you can do. You could assume that because there is more room to work with they'd be "gods" you could also say that without a running game, or only 3 downs to work with, they'd be screwed. Doug Flutie could scramble like no other in the CFL, he had a lot of room and time, and made his own time. In the NFL he didn't have as much time to work with...why? Lesser room maybe?

Geez....Just because they call it football doesn't mean it could be compared at all....Hell even the CFL has bigger balls....

I watch both.

I'm much more of an NFL fan even though the CFL game is more exciting. You don't see many CFL snoozefests, in the NFL it's a constant. NFL just has more appeal.

This guy knows what's going on... totally agree. :handclap: :teach:

:shakehead You win the ignorant comment of the day award!

Every player in the CFL that played in the NCAA had a good NCAA career, otherwise they would not be getting paid to play football.

If there was any way of proving this, I would list 50 players for you. I posted all BC's import players earlier. You find me the 5:1 asshat ratio.


No. I don't. Most of those guys were asshats. Sure, they had good careers depending on how loosely you want to use the word good. But you're not going to find many people who were stars in college. You're not going to find people that were household names in college. You won't find people the real standouts until you drop down to the AA and DivIII schools.
Instead you find people that were rejected by the NFL on the roster you linked.

Yeah, I looked at how your roster of the BC Lions. And what jumps to mind is "what a crappy roster". I don't think they could beat UofM. College football is huge in the states. And where I am it's even bigger then the NFL. And the players you listed are crap. It isn't close to an NFL roster. That roster wouldn't beat an NFL team if you spoted them a 40 point lead and only gave the NFL team 2 downs to work with.

The most ignorant thing I've seen in a long time if you start and arguement about the talent of the CFL and the NFL. The CFL is nothing but a league of people that can't play in the NFL because the NFL doesn't want them. There will be a few gems mixed in there that got missed of course. A few. Very few. I don't care how many Canadians defend it. It ain't close. The CFL rosters are full of NFL rejects and the talent level isn't close.

No. I don't. Most of those guys were asshats. Sure, they had good careers depending on how loosely you want to use the word good. But you're not going to find many people who were stars in college. You're not going to find people that were household names in college. You won't find people the real standouts until you drop down to the AA and DivIII schools.
Instead you find people that were rejected by the NFL on the roster you linked.

Yeah, I looked at how your roster of the BC Lions. And what jumps to mind is "what a crappy roster". I don't think they could beat UofM. College football is huge in the states. And where I am it's even bigger then the NFL. And the players you listed are crap. It isn't close to an NFL roster. That roster wouldn't beat an NFL team if you spoted them a 40 point lead and only gave the NFL team 2 downs to work with.

The most ignorant thing I've seen in a long time if you start and arguement about the talent of the CFL and the NFL. The CFL is nothing but a league of people that can't play in the NFL because the NFL doesn't want them. There will be a few gems mixed in there that got missed of course. A few. Very few. I don't care how many Canadians defend it. It ain't close. The CFL rosters are full of NFL rejects and the talent level isn't close.

We've been down this road before.

Go back to page one and re-read. I don't feel like retyping what I said.

I'm not trying to prove the CFL is equal to the NFL. I'm just pointing out the talent gap is not as far as some people like to think.

Oh, and I REALLLY respect your opinion seeing as you've probably never watched a single CFL game.

Yep most people around here are ignorant.

Imagine an NFL Team playing with CFL rules. The game dynamic would change completely. You can't compare the CFL and the NFL you just can't.

The people saying the talent is worse, is very wrong, you can't compare them. Not even close. These guys are faster and stronger and blah blah blah....Prove it. Prove that Lineback A is strong then Lineback B and that DT A is faster the DT B.

Regardless even if you did add up ALL the numbers the game is too different to weight with each other.

Think of Michael Vick, now give him TONS of more room on the feild.....I bet he'd pass for a lot more yards. There would be more scoring. There would be MORE room to cover. Think of running around a feild MUCH bigger then the NFL. Then take a "huge" linebacker and have him track down Barry Sanders...wouldn't happen.

Same thing for CFLers take a smaller CFL player and tell him to line up on the line, he'd be killed. But he also wouldn't have to run as much. It's a different game totally.

How do you know that Michael Vick, or John Elway would be as good in the CFL? You can't. You can only assume. That's ALL you can do. You could assume that because there is more room to work with they'd be "gods" you could also say that without a running game, or only 3 downs to work with, they'd be screwed. Doug Flutie could scramble like no other in the CFL, he had a lot of room and time, and made his own time. In the NFL he didn't have as much time to work with...why? Lesser room maybe?

Geez....Just because they call it football doesn't mean it could be compared at all....Hell even the CFL has bigger balls....

Quoted for emphasis. This is exactly why this debate can't work.
And the bolded part just made me laugh a lot. :)

We've been down this road before.

Go back to page one and re-read. I don't feel like retyping what I said.

I'm not trying to prove the CFL is equal to the NFL. I'm just pointing out the talent gap is not as far as some people like to think.

Oh, and I REALLLY respect your opinion seeing as you've probably never watched a single CFL game.


Right, and you know college football and the NFL so well that you can understand the difference in talent. We do get to see or know about most of the people that end up in the CFL before they go to the CFL ya know.

I've read everything you said on page one and it's a bunch of conjecture.
Take this for example:

but the average NFL player is not that much better than the better CFL players.

Which is absurd. Because if those CFLers got an invite to an NFL camp and a team kept them on their roster as an 3rd string backup and special teams player they would gladly take it. So really, the thing is the best CFL players are more comparable to the worst NFL players.

Yep most people around here are ignorant.

Imagine an NFL Team playing with CFL rules. The game dynamic would change completely. You can't compare the CFL and the NFL you just can't.

The people saying the talent is worse, is very wrong, you can't compare them. Not even close. These guys are faster and stronger and blah blah blah....Prove it. Prove that Lineback A is strong then Lineback B and that DT A is faster the DT B.

Regardless even if you did add up ALL the numbers the game is too different to weight with each other.

Think of Michael Vick, now give him TONS of more room on the feild.....I bet he'd pass for a lot more yards. There would be more scoring. There would be MORE room to cover. Think of running around a feild MUCH bigger then the NFL. Then take a "huge" linebacker and have him track down Barry Sanders...wouldn't happen.

Same thing for CFLers take a smaller CFL player and tell him to line up on the line, he'd be killed. But he also wouldn't have to run as much. It's a different game totally.

How do you know that Michael Vick, or John Elway would be as good in the CFL? You can't. You can only assume. That's ALL you can do. You could assume that because there is more room to work with they'd be "gods" you could also say that without a running game, or only 3 downs to work with, they'd be screwed. Doug Flutie could scramble like no other in the CFL, he had a lot of room and time, and made his own time. In the NFL he didn't have as much time to work with...why? Lesser room maybe?

Geez....Just because they call it football doesn't mean it could be compared at all....Hell even the CFL has bigger balls....

Here is the problem though.

Most of the CFL is formed by players that tried, AND FAILED, to make it in the NFL. Every summer, CFL stars head to the NFL training camps and try to make it, most fail again. When one league's best struggle to make it as back-ups and another league's scrubs can be starters, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the level of competition (talent) is vastly different.

Seems rather clear cut to me. If Spergyn Wynn can find work in the NFL, it leaves me no doubt that any half-way decent QB from the NFL would tear it up.

Put it this way, I can find dozens of NFLers who did nothing in the NFL but did fine in the CFL. How many CFLers can you name that did well in the NFL, but stunk in the CFL? The leagues are not comparable because of their differences, they are not comparable because of the difference in talent. NFL is on an entirely different level from the CFL. Men among boys.

:banghead: :banghead:

Follow me carefully. If NFL scouts thought there were no NFL calibre players in the CFL, would they send scouts up here? After all, these are all players who were scouted in college. NFL players have come out of DivII schools as well, but that is a different kettle of fish altogether. That's scouting amatuer players.

Are you really that dense?

Because ONE or TWO players on the field MIGHT be worth giving a TRIAL CONTRACT, doesn't mean that the overall talent levels are remotely close.

Joel Otto came out of the backwoods of Minnesota, a DIII school. NHL scouts attended his games. Why? Because they were looking for a hidden gem. That ONE INDIVIDUAL AMONG DOZENS warrented attention does not mean the overall talent level of U of MN Bemidji can compete with the U of MN Twin Cities. Otto could make it at the main U, but the rest would get killed.

That is the CFL. A handful might have potential as NFL depth players. Maybe one or two could be something more. But there are 6+ "asshats" for each of them. Maybe you completely failed statistics or something, but there is absolutely no logical way somebody can see that and think that the two can even be mentioned in the same sentance.

Great debate? More like a comical one. Live in denial all you like, but reality isn't going to change for ya.

I don't think the CFL is comparable to the AHL. I think it's more like the RSL. The RSL definately is weaker than the NHL, but not temendously so (it's certainly stronger than the AHL), and there are alot of great players in that league. There are great players in the RSL who can't make the NHL, but there are also very good players in the NHL who wouldn't necessarily have tremendous success in the RSL.

The key point is the difference in rules, and in style of play. The CFL simply requires a different skill set than the NFL. Although in regards to the NFL skill set, CFL players might be far weaker than NFL players, but I don't think CFL players are that far back in terms of the CFL skill set.

Take a look at soccer. Juan Sebastian Veron, Hernan Crespo, and Adrian Mutu were worldclass players in the Serie A, which is considered stornger than the English premiership. However, when these players went to England, they were total duds. The relevance is that it's hard to compare Serie A players to Premiership players because the two leagues have two different standards of quality. That difference is even greater in regards to the CFL/NFL comparison because of the rules differences.

I think comparing the CFL to the AHL is assinine. The AHL has the same rules as the NHL. It is a developmental league. All AHL teams are affilaited with NHL teams so that their best players can be called up at any time. The AHL hardly compares to the CFL at all.


And comparing it to the RSL is assinine as well. There is no good comparision for the NFL and the CFL. Which is why I was comparing talent levels, not league rules or how teams use them.

What's wrong with the RSL comparision?
Well, for starters, you'd have to take allmost all Russians out of the RSL and replace them with Canadian players that no NHL teams wanted. The RSL has lots of young talent that the NHL wants and drafts. Well, that sure as hell doesn't exist in the CFL.

And seriously, what the hell is up with this skill set difference? The CFL is full of players the NFL didn't want. The go to the CFL and if the NFL wants them back they come back. It's not as if the CFL is going through the draft eligible players and saying "oh oh, this one has the skills we need, we'll take this one". No, they say "OK, now that the NFL rosters are done, which of the one's they didn't want do we want".

Are you really that dense?

Because ONE or TWO players on the field MIGHT be worth giving a TRIAL CONTRACT, doesn't mean that the overall talent levels are remotely close.

Joel Otto came out of the backwoods of Minnesota, a DIII school. NHL scouts attended his games. Why? Because they were looking for a hidden gem. That ONE INDIVIDUAL AMONG DOZENS warrented attention does not mean the overall talent level of U of MN Bemidji can compete with the U of MN Twin Cities. Otto could make it at the main U, but the rest would get killed.

That is the CFL. A handful might have potential as NFL depth players. Maybe one or two could be something more. But there are 6+ "asshats" for each of them. Maybe you completely failed statistics or something, but there is absolutely no logical way somebody can see that and think that the two can even be mentioned in the same sentance.

Great debate? More like a comical one. Live in denial all you like, but reality isn't going to change for ya.

Yes I really must be that dense.

Do you really think that the NFL scouts come up to canada just to look for bodies to play on their practice squad? Are they running out of players in the US to fill that position? Ever think that they might think that there are some talented players in canada?

******* it. You are to ignorant to open up your mind one inch at the possibility that there might be some good players in the CFL.

And don't bring up amatuer scouting. That is completely different.

And seriously, what the hell is up with this skill set difference?

It's, umm, reality. The two games have significantly different rules and styles of play. They thus require different skill sets. That's not hard to understand. If you were used to following a sport like soccer, in which leagues have different styles of play, maybe you would understand that. In soccer, a great Serie A player (Veron) can be a poor Premiership player, but a poor Serie A player (Henry) can be a fantstic premiership player. The fact is, the Serie A and the Premiership have the same rules, so the skill set required difference is even greater when comparing the CFL/NFL. It's blatantly common sense.

And comparing it to the RSL is assinine as well. There is no good comparision for the NFL and the CFL. Which is why I was comparing talent levels, not league rules or how teams use them.

Any my point is, comparing talent levels is stupid if the leagues have different rules.


What's wrong with the RSL comparision?
Well, for starters, you'd have to take allmost all Russians out of the RSL and replace them with Canadian players that no NHL teams wanted.

Most Russians playing in the RSL would be in the NHL if they could make it.


The RSL has lots of young talent that the NHL wants and drafts. Well, that sure as hell doesn't exist in the CFL.

Sure, but that young talent is U-18, they are hardly the best players in a a league full of men. They might be an extra attraction, but they don't increase the level of play.


And seriously, what the hell is up with this skill set difference? The CFL is full of players the NFL didn't want. The go to the CFL and if the NFL wants them back they come back. It's not as if the CFL is going through the draft eligible players and saying "oh oh, this one has the skills we need, we'll take this one". No, they say "OK, now that the NFL rosters are done, which of the one's they didn't want do we want".

And of course, the NFL teams are not rejecting players if they are poor in terms of the CFL skillset, they are rejecting players in terms of the NFL skill set. There is probably not a huge amount of players who have great CFL skill set yet poor NFL skill set, but the CFL is not a huge league either. I'm still not denying that the CFL players are weaker than NFL players even in terms of the CFL skill set, but in those terms the quality of the players is much closer.

Yes I really must be that dense.

Found one thing we agree on.

Yes, there are SOME talented players in the CFL. Never said otherwise. Generalizing that SOME players to the OVERALL talent level is flat-out stupid. Assmble an All-Star team of CFLers and they would be hard pressed to beat any NFL team. The talent level is indeed that different.

As stated before, the CFL doesn't even draft. They get the leftovers of players the NFL didn't want. One last analogy, the CFL is the NFLs garage sale. Odds nad ends that the NFL doesn't want. Sometimes a valuable item will end up in a garage sale, but most of it is just junk. Now, going to a garage sale may be entertaining, but Aunt Mabel's yard sale simply cannot compare to the NFL's Macy's. Can't wrap your head around that, then too bad. Fact remains.

Found one thing we agree on.

Yes, there are SOME talented players in the CFL. Never said otherwise. Generalizing that SOME players to the OVERALL talent level is flat-out stupid. Assmble an All-Star team of CFLers and they would be hard pressed to beat any NFL team. The talent level is indeed that different.

As stated before, the CFL doesn't even draft. They get the leftovers of players the NFL didn't want. One last analogy, the CFL is the NFLs garage sale. Odds nad ends that the NFL doesn't want. Sometimes a valuable item will end up in a garage sale, but most of it is just junk. Now, going to a garage sale may be entertaining, but Aunt Mabel's yard sale simply cannot compare to the NFL's Macy's. Can't wrap your head around that, then too bad. Fact remains.

That really is a false analogy. A more accurate one would be the following. One man is looking for the fastest cars he can find. Another man is looking for the nicest cars he can find, but can only buy cars the first man doesn't want. Clearly, the second man won't have all the cars he wants, but he still ends up with a pretty great looking set of cars. If you can't understand that, then too bad. Fact remains.

It's, umm, reality. The two games have significantly different rules and styles of play. They thus require different skill sets. That's not hard to understand. If you were used to following a sport like soccer, in which leagues have different styles of play, maybe you would understand that. In soccer, a great Serie A player (Veron) can be a poor Premiership player, but a poor Serie A player (Henry) can be a fantstic premiership player. The fact is, the Serie A and the Premiership have the same rules, so the skill set required difference is even greater when comparing the CFL/NFL. It's blatantly common sense.


No. They aren't that different. What is different is minutia.

The CFL gets NFL rejects. That is common sense. The best of the best from college football go to the NFL. The leftovers go to the CFL.

You are incredibly over exaggerating the differences between the CFL and the NFL in an attempt to prove an abusrd point.

Any my point is, comparing talent levels is stupid if the leagues have different rules.


Absurd. College football has different rules then the NFL. We can still judge overall talent between the two leagues. The CFL is close enough to the NFL to make a majority of the skill needed to excel in both leagues the same. The best players end up in the NFL, not the CFL.



Most Russians playing in the RSL would be in the NHL if they could make it.


And the same for the vets in the AHL. Yes, you didn't like that.



Sure, but that young talent is U-18, they are hardly the best players in a a league full of men. They might be an extra attraction, but they don't increase the level of play.

No. Most of that good talent is under 21. The very very best might go at 18. A majority of the drafted talent stays a few years before the teams try and bring them over. And if they don't increase the level of play why do some of the play big minutes in the league.

Don't forget, the talent level of the NHL comes from many countries. The NFL and CFL is vastly American. So the talent level of the RSL is much closer to the NHL then the CFL is. Not to mention that from that one country, the CFL competes against other leagues. The CFL is similar in talent to NFL Europe or Arena football.


And of course, the NFL teams are not rejecting players if they are poor in terms of the CFL skillset, they are rejecting players in terms of the NFL skill set. There is probably not a huge amount of players who have great CFL skill set yet poor NFL skill set, but the CFL is not a huge league either. I'm still not denying that the CFL players are weaker than NFL players even in terms of the CFL skill set, but in those terms the quality of the players is much closer.

It aint close. You're trying to make different types of apples sound like apples and oranges. They aren't. They are both apples.

All those college players and the best ones never go to the CFL. The CFL picks through the NFL rejects.

Found one thing we agree on.

Yes, there are SOME talented players in the CFL. Never said otherwise. Generalizing that SOME players to the OVERALL talent level is flat-out stupid. Assmble an All-Star team of CFLers and they would be hard pressed to beat any NFL team. The talent level is indeed that different.

As stated before, the CFL doesn't even draft. They get the leftovers of players the NFL didn't want. One last analogy, the CFL is the NFLs garage sale. Odds nad ends that the NFL doesn't want. Sometimes a valuable item will end up in a garage sale, but most of it is just junk. Now, going to a garage sale may be entertaining, but Aunt Mabel's yard sale simply cannot compare to the NFL's Macy's. Can't wrap your head around that, then too bad. Fact remains.

:joker: :handclap: THE TRUTH! :yo:

No. They aren't that different. What is different is minutia.


I think your opinion on this matter is what is truly absurd. The CFL has fundamental rule differences from the NFL (number of downs, the size of the field). Clearly, that is going to result in a situation in which the CFL requires a different skill set than the NFL. It's obvious.

I mean, what more can I say? I guess I could provide more examples that illustrate my point. Look at how a collection of NBA stars finished sixth in the last basketball world championships playing against teams that consisted of many players who could never make the NBA. There were a variety of reasons for this, but one that was evident to everyone was that the international rules created a style of game that gave an advantage to the non-American teams.

Hockey, Soccer, Basketball--all these sports provide examples of how different leagues and different rules can create different standards of quality. Why should football be special?



The CFL gets NFL rejects. That is common sense. The best of the best from college football go to the NFL. The leftovers go to the CFL.

And what you don't understand is that the NFL rejects players based on the NFL skill set, which has limited relevance to the standard of play in the CFL.


You are incredibly over exaggerating the differences between the CFL and the NFL in an attempt to prove an abusrd point.

That's your opinion, and my opinion is that you don't have nearly enough knowledge of the CFL to have a valid opinion on this matter. Any analyst who covers the CFL and the NFL (Chris Schultz for example, who has played in both the the CFL and NFL) will tell you there are tremendous differences between the two games.

As stated before, the CFL doesn't even draft.But it was on the Simpsons!!! But, seriously, the CFL does have a draft...

Absurd. College football has different rules then the NFL. We can still judge overall talent between the two leagues. The CFL is close enough to the NFL to make a majority of the skill needed to excel in both leagues the same. The best players end up in the NFL, not the CFL.

Clearly, the CFL is far more fundamentaly different from the NFL then college football is. And what's with your obsession with the word absurd?


And the same for the vets in the AHL. Yes, you didn't like that.


So the CFL, RSL, and AHL all have something in common with regards to something you claimed differed between the CFL and RSL.


No. Most of that good talent is under 21. The very very best might go at 18. A majority of the drafted talent stays a few years before the teams try and bring them over.

The ones who stay after being drafted aren't good enough yet to play in the NHL. If they were even close, they would be in the AHL, as teams would want them to get familiar with the North American game.


And if they don't increase the level of play why do some of the play big minutes in the league.

When you're talking about players available to the RSL but not the NHL (i.e. undrafted players), very few of them make a significant contribution to the league. There's one per year, if even that much. Those that are available to both leagues (i.e. drafted players) would be in the NHL if they were good enough.


Don't forget, the talent level of the NHL comes from many countries. The NFL and CFL is vastly American. So the talent level of the RSL is much closer to the NHL then the CFL is.

There is a significant leap from your evidence to your conclusion in the above sentences. You really need to elaborate furthur.


Not to mention that from that one country, the CFL competes against other leagues. The CFL is similar in talent to NFL Europe or Arena football.

But you see, those leagues still require a different skill set than the CFL. The CFL is looking for a different type of player in the "market of football players". Because they're looking for something different than everybody else, they're more likely to get what they want than if everyone was after the same thing.



It aint close. You're trying to make different types of apples sound like apples and oranges. They aren't. They are both apples.

No. They are both fruit, but not the same fruit.

But, seriously, the CFL does have a draft...

Yes it does. Really, if JCD doesn't know that, how much does he truly know about the CFL? I don't usually look down on someone for not knowing the CFL has a draft, but I do when someone acts as if they know enough about the CFL to accurately place it's position in the football universe.

You whole point is based on a faulty conclusion the NFL and CFL look for different skill sets.
Whether there are 3 downs or 9 downs it does not matter. The skills are still the skills.

As you would have it, the CFL might as well draft people from the OHL or WHL. After all, the games are so different might as well tap into some other leagues.

Running and throwing and catching and tackling and blocking must be so freaking different up in Canada. Yeah, right.

The CFL gets NFL leftovers and it isn't based on skill sets.
It's based on players playing the same exact game their whole lives and the one's that are the BEST at it go to the NFL. The leftovers wind up in different leagues, one of which is the CFL.

I have a hard time believing you are being serious you point is so preposterous.

Yes it does. Really, if JCD doesn't know that, how much does he truly know about the CFL? I don't usually look down on someone for not knowing the CFL has a draft, but I do when someone acts as if they know enough about the CFL to accurately place it's position in the football universe.


Imagine this.
Take the NHL and make it so ONLY Canadians play in it. ONLY Canadians. You watch these kids ALL though Canadian juniors. Only imagine there's only one league for juniors and only 18 - 22 year olds play in juniors.

You watch tons and tons of it. Their game's are front page news. Their games often lead national sports coverage. In much of their country their games are bigger then the NHL.

Now, down in Mexico another league starts up. The Mexican Hockey League (MHL). Only this league doesn't use the red line and has tag up offsides. It's a pro league.

As far who gets to play where, EVERY Canadian dreams of playing in the NHL, not the MHL. The MHL is barely known of in Canada. Most people know it exists, but could barely name a team in the league. Even the players in juniors don't know much about the MHL and couldn't name most teams in it.

Then along comes some Mexicans talking about the MHL. They're talking up the talent in their league. You'd know, having watched these kids so much since the juniors are a HUGE deal in Canada, that these Mexicans are full of crap. The Mexicans claim it's a totally different game because there's no red line. But you'd easily counter that saying even with know red line passing and defense and shooting and leadership and speed and strength don't change. What changes is a rule and it's effect on who is a great player or a good player and a bad player is not much and in most cases zero.


Well....
You're a Mexican.

We watch these players over and over. I watch tons and tons of college football. I live in freaking Tallahassee for cryin' out loud. And you can't tell me that a few stupid rule changes and knowing crap about the CFL means a damn thing as to if I can evaluate the talent level. I know who goes in there. I know the players, I know they aren't even close to the players that go to the NFL. You get are rejects. Deal with it.
I wasn't trying to diss the CFL, but some of you are being idiots about this.

I don't know why there's even an argument. I love the CFL, and I only occasionally watch the NFL, but I know the NFL is lightyears ahead in talent. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy the CFL more. It's just a fact that the NFL gets the talent because they have the money. You're not gonna tell me a guy who's making 100 000 a year in the CFL and is talented enough to play in the NFL isn't gonna do it.

The players in the CFL arn't as good as the NFL. BUT, their IS a difference in the skillsets you need to excel in each league. Having a yard between the lines creates a VERY different atmosphere. A big, lumbering, slow lineman will get eaten up in the CFL, but can be mildly effective (not a star, they need to be BIG and FAST), in the NFL.

As such, a CFL line consists of "undersized" lineman from varios colleges, who really have NO CHANCE at making the NFL, but are still very talented linemen. You introduce the 1 yard gap in the NFL, and linemen will get smaller (Ted Washington would be near useless in the CFL, for example). But a guy like Bruce Smith in his prime would clean up even more. So, the number of linemen who try to get back to the NFL is MUCH, MUCH, smaller than QB's, or RB's, or WR. So, while the average NFL lineman is better than the CFL lineman, the CFL game actually suits some players who can't make the NFL over some that are reasonable players in the NFL.

I also think that some NFL team is going to draft a QB and put them in the CFL for a year or two, over holding a clipboard. The CFL is, IMHO, the best league to learn how to QB, as you get to scramble alot, and make longer throws (both downfield and across field). This combination is ideal for a young QB, which is why of the CFL to NFL guys, it has been the QB's that have had the greatest impact (Moon, Flutie, Garcia). They were all able to go into the NFL and scramble with the best at the time, and throw with the best, all based on the skills they garnered from the CFL.

I'd believe that about the O-Line except when I go to sites like BCLions.com and look at their roster you see 335 lbs lineman like David Heasman. Or 320 lbs Marques McFadden.

Here's a bio of McFadden from his draft year:

G-T, Arizona: 6-41/2, 317, 40 time of 5.7. . . . Started at right guard in 1999 and at right tackle in 2000. . . . Limited athlete with poor speed. . . . "Size guy who can play guard or tackle," Dorsey said.

Dorsey, btw, was the director of college scouting for the Packers when he said that.

Hey, look it's 304 lbs Freddie Moore on the Lions roster. He played college ball in Tallahassee. He also screwed up his knee in the NFL and has allmost no mobility.


I went through the entire BC Lions roster. Size wise their lineman compared to NFL lineman just fine. The difference is the NFL lineman are going to be faster, and they are going to have better footwork and be better athletes.

So no, it sounded plausible, but it doesn't check out. Unless of course you were to tell me BC is the exception and all the other teams use smaller faster lineman and BC just thinks it's an NFL team (with DIII talent of course).

You whole point is based on a faulty conclusion the NFL and CFL look for different skill sets.
Whether there are 3 downs or 9 downs it does not matter. The skills are still the skills.

As you would have it, the CFL might as well draft people from the OHL or WHL. After all, the games are so different might as well tap into some other leagues.

Running and throwing and catching and tackling and blocking must be so freaking different up in Canada. Yeah, right.

The CFL gets NFL leftovers and it isn't based on skill sets.
It's based on players playing the same exact game their whole lives and the one's that are the BEST at it go to the NFL. The leftovers wind up in different leagues, one of which is the CFL.

I have a hard time believing you are being serious you point is so preposterous.

How is it so perposterous? I've given you examples of such things happening in hockey, soccer, and basketball. Different standards of quality in different leagues is something well documented in sports. Why it so hard for you to understand that? You say there is no difference in the games, but honestly, how the heck would you know? You can say it over and over and it doesn't make it true. The reality is that those who have played in both leagues, who watch both leagues closely, will tell you how different the two leagues are. Does your opinion, which hasn't been based on the relevant evidence (i.e. you have little familiarity with the CFL) count for much? I don't think so.

I'm not proposing something radical. I've even said that NFL players are superior to CFL players in terms of the CFL skill set. However, the reality is, that there are some, not many, players who excell in terms of the CFL skill set but do not excell in terms of the NFL skill set. Since the CFL has only 9 teams, there doesn't have to be many of these players to create a high standard of play.

Is it all so confusing? I assume you know a few things about hockey. In hockey, a large, lumbering player who hooks and grabs could be successful in a league with small ice sufaces and that has referees who look the other way on obstruction. Would such a player do well in a league that has large ice surfaces, and that vigoursly punishes those who commit obstruction? Most likely not. That's the basis pf my argument. If you change the rules, you change the way the game is played, and you change the skill set that is ideal to play the game.

Then along comes some Mexicans talking about the MHL. They're talking up the talent in their league. You'd know, having watched these kids so much since the juniors are a HUGE deal in Canada, that these Mexicans are full of crap. The Mexicans claim it's a totally different game because there's no red line. But you'd easily counter that saying even with know red line passing and defense and shooting and leadership and speed and strength don't change. What changes is a rule and it's effect on who is a great player or a good player and a bad player is not much and in most cases zero.


So you say. It's clear that some rule changes can change the required skill set. Say you increased the ice surface of the NHL, and were far stricter as far as what penalties are called. Small players with speed would become more valuable because their weaknesses would be less important and their strengths would be more important.



We watch these players over and over. I watch tons and tons of college football.

But you don't watch them under CFL rules, so you have no idea how good they are in CFL terms.


I wasn't trying to diss the CFL, but some of you are being idiots about this.

I find it ironic that you're calling us idiots. You know little of the CFL. You can't even understand that different leagues have different standards of play, something which has been proven in many, many sports. I think the fact that you think we're the idiots, that your opinion is superior, is a joke.

How is it so perposterous?

It's perposterous because you haven't shown any skills that would be be different between the leagues. You've shown rules.

Running, tackling, passing, catchign, blocking. Those things still exist.
What freaking skills are different?

Look at my last post about the O-line. What he said sounded OK, and was 10x better then any bit of conjecture you've brought to the table. But the facts don't back that. BC's roster is full of linemen just as big as the NFL's but not as good or fast or athletic.

Look at the LBers on the BC Lions. They don't have different skills then NFL LBers. They are smaller AND slower. Simpson and Kidd aren't in the NFL because they aren't good enough for the NFL. What freaking skills do they have in the CFL that they don't in the NFL?

Look at their wideouts. Ryan Thelwell was excellent for the BC Lions in the CFL. He's of the same size of many NFL wideouts. What skills does he have in the CFL that aren't needed in the NFL?


When I'm looking at the BC Lions roster I'm looking at a bunch of people that just weren't good enough to make the NFL. They weren't fast enough, weren't strong enough, couldn't catch good enough, couldn't run good enough, etc.

So I guess what you are saying is in the CFL you don't have to be fast or strong or have good hands, or be able to cut on a dime, or be able to block, or get off your blocks.

I get it now. You just have to be able to tolerate the cold. That must be the special skill needed. My bad. It all makes sense now.

So you say. It's clear that some rule changes can change the required skill set. Say you increased the ice surface of the NHL, and were far stricter as far as what penalties are called. Small players with speed would become more valuable because their weaknesses would be less important and their strengths would be more important.


Yeah, but you can't show me faster players in the CFL. Why? Because the CFL is not a faster league. The NFL has faster players.



But you don't watch them under CFL rules, so you have no idea how good they are in CFL terms.


And amazingly, you can't articulate what skills are emphasized more in the CFL. Well, you can try speed, but I that won't work. We can start pulling out combine times.



I find it ironic that you're calling us idiots. You know little of the CFL. You can't even understand that different leagues have different standards of play, something which has been proven in many, many sports. I think the fact that you think we're the idiots, that your opinion is superior, is a joke.

I find it sad that you're arguing this at all. Your point sucks and doesn't match reality. Show me some of those magic Canadian skills already.

Just answer this.

Is the CFL the #2 pro football league in the world?

I don't think so.
I think NFL Europe has more talent. But they are usually younger. So it probably balances out.

I think the Arena League might be the next best league talent wise. So I would say that is the #2 league in the world.

As far as how much people care about it, sure, the CFL is the next best league in the world. But as far as quality of player/talent, I think the Arena League has it.

Imagine this.
Take the NHL and make it so ONLY Canadians play in it. ONLY Canadians. You watch these kids ALL though Canadian juniors. Only imagine there's only one league for juniors and only 18 - 22 year olds play in juniors.

You watch tons and tons of it. Their game's are front page news. Their games often lead national sports coverage. In much of their country their games are bigger then the NHL.

Now, down in Mexico another league starts up. The Mexican Hockey League (MHL). Only this league doesn't use the red line and has tag up offsides. It's a pro league.

As far who gets to play where, EVERY Canadian dreams of playing in the NHL, not the MHL. The MHL is barely known of in Canada. Most people know it exists, but could barely name a team in the league. Even the players in juniors don't know much about the MHL and couldn't name most teams in it.

Then along comes some Mexicans talking about the MHL. They're talking up the talent in their league. You'd know, having watched these kids so much since the juniors are a HUGE deal in Canada, that these Mexicans are full of crap. The Mexicans claim it's a totally different game because there's no red line. But you'd easily counter that saying even with know red line passing and defense and shooting and leadership and speed and strength don't change. What changes is a rule and it's effect on who is a great player or a good player and a bad player is not much and in most cases zero.


Well....
You're a Mexican.



You're a Mexican!

No, I completely agree with you and those on the side of the discussion that chooses the NFL. I don't know where this idea that there's a different skill set came from. I've posted my share of stupid comments before, but.... wow.

If the NHL changed the rinks to larger surfaces it wouldn't change the skills a player needs to play the game. You still need to pass, skate, shoot, check and be very strong. It's the same thing in football, or any other sport for that matter. The fundamentals are no different for either league. The difference between the CFL and the NFL is that NFL players have these fundamentals at the level needed to step out onto the field. In the CFL, many players have more than one weakness. In the NFL, one weakness or mistake will cost you your job and land you in the CFL. Players don't dream of the CFL, they dream of the NFL and I would suggest that most of the players who are capable of sticking on an NFL practice roster would do so over playing in the CFL.

Damon Allen is not that good yet he remains one of the best starters. He's how old? Over 40?

CFL or not, you have to be talented and a great athlete to accomplish something like that.

I think the CFL has some good QB's. Overall, no where near the talent of the NFL. But QB is such a hard position to judge because it requires so much more then just pure ability that some gems get missed and end up in other leagues like the CFL.


But I'd think what you'd see is allmost any starting or back-up NFL QB could star in the CFL, while only a rare few CFL QB's could ever star in the NFL.

I don't think so.
I think NFL Europe has more talent. But they are usually younger. So it probably balances out.

I think the Arena League might be the next best league talent wise. So I would say that is the #2 league in the world.

As far as how much people care about it, sure, the CFL is the next best league in the world. But as far as quality of player/talent, I think the Arena League has it.

That does it. You have obviously never watched a CFL game. CFL has much more talented players than the AFL.

AFL doesn't count in my books. That game is played in a freaking arena for god sakes.

You love rules, huh.

Bottom Line: NFLplayers are more talented than CFL players. By a goo