2004 MLB All-Star Selections

American League All-Stars

Starters:
Ivan Rodriguez, DET
Jason Giambi, NYY
Alfonso Soriano, TEX
Alex Rodriguez, NYY
Derek Jeter, NYY
Manny Ramirez, BOS
Vladimir Guerrero, ANA
Ichiro Suzuki, SEA

Pitchers:
Tim Hudson, OAK
Ted Lilly, TOR
Esteban Loaiza, CWS
Mark Mulder, OAK
Kenny Rogers, TEX
C.C. Sabathia, CLE
Curt Schilling, BOS

Relievers:
Francisco Cordero, TEX
Tom Gordon, NYY
Joe Nathan, MIN
Mariano Rivera, NYY
Francisco Rodriguez, ANA

Reserves:
Victor Martinez, CLE
Ken Harvey, KC
David Ortiz, BOS
Ron Belliard, CLE
Hank Blalock, TEX
Carlos Guillen, DET
Miguel Tejada, BAL
Michael Young, TEX
Carl Crawford, TB
Matt Lawton, CLE
Gary Sheffield, NYY

National League All-Stars

Starters:
Mike Piazza, NYM
Albert Pujols, STL
Jeff Kent, HOU
Scott Rolen, STL
Edgar Renteria, STL
Barry Bonds, SF
Ken Griffey, CIN
Sammy Sosa, CHC

Pitchers:
Roger Clemens, HOU
Tom Glavine, NYM
Livan Hernandez, MON
Randy Johnson, ARI
Carl Pavano, FLA
Jason Schmidt, SF
Ben Sheets, MIL
Carlos Zambrano, CHC

Relievers:
Armando Benitez, FLA
Eric Gagne, LA
Danny Graves, CIN
Danny Kolb, MIL

Reserves:
Johnny Estrada, ATL
Sean Casey, CIN
Todd Helton, COL
Jim Thome, PHI
Mark Loretta, SD
Mike Lowell, FLA
Barry Larkin, CIN
Jack Wilson, PIT
Moises Alou, CHC
Carlos Beltran, HOU*
Lance Berkman, HOU
Miguel Cabrera, FLA

*- Beltran cannot play in the actual game but can participate in the festivities. He was selected to the All-Star game for the American League while with the KC Royals. However, the rule is that when you are selected to the All-Star game, then are traded to a different league, the votes do not carry over to the other league.

I thought Adrian Beltre of the Dodgers got snubbed. He's having a great year. 4th in the NL in Home Runs. Most by a 3rd baseman in the NL. The best fielding percentage 3rd baseman in the NL. This is a career year for him. 55 RBIs... and all of this while playing on a very bad ankle. I guess the All-Star break will help him rest that ankle, but it still would be nice to call him an All-Star because his numbers warrant an All-Star selection.

Also, it will be fun watching Roger Clemens throwing to Mike Piazza. They'll be professional about it, but it's hard to forget the history between those two. Then you have the Future Hall of Fame outfield for the NL with Griffey JR., Sosa and Bonds. Wow. Randy Johnson, Tom Glavine and Roger Clemens are all on the team - more future Hall of Famers. This will be an interesting game.

Wow. That's alot of Yankees.

Tom Gordon, Mariano Riviera, Gary Sheffield, Jason Giambi, Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, plus former Yanks Alfonso Soriano and Roger Clemens.


Great to see K-Rod get his due. He did fairly well having to be closer for Anaheim when Percival went down. Also good to see Vladdy make the team.

its all BS in the end

Wow. That's alot of Yankees.

Tom Gordon, Mariano Riviera, Gary Sheffield, Jason Giambi, Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, plus former Yanks Alfonso Soriano and Roger Clemens.

Giambi has said he won't participate in the game since he's still feeling weak. Ortiz will be at 1st instead.

Gordon has really deserved his spot, he's been lights out all year.

Jeter didnt deserve the start at SS...whats really amazing is how Nomar finished second in the voting at SS, and wasnt really that far behind Jeter. Gotta love the ballot stuffing. And who would have thought that not 1, but two Texas Rangers pitchers would be at the All-Star game?

Whose idea was it to put 4 Cleveland Indians on the team?

The MLB All-Star game has got to be the weakest All-Star game in sports.

Wow.

Ronnie Belliard?

NO LYLE OVERBAY :banghead:

.343BA, .406OBP, .557SLG, leads NL with 35 doubles

not to mention 61 RBI's...

not even on the 32nd man ballot :mad:

NO LYLE OVERBAY :banghead:

.343BA, .406OBP, .557SLG, leads NL with 35 doubles

not to mention 61 RBI's...

not even on the 32nd man ballot :mad:

Jeff Brantley said it on BBTN...even though the DH is bad for regular baseball, they should add it in the all star game. In this case Thome would probably be DH, and Overbay could make it as a reserve.

I think the choices for 32nd man suck.
In the American League...Travis Hafner and Lew Ford really aren't all star material. Paul Konerko should be on the team. Frank Thomas ok. The two white sox reps will cancel each other out. Hideki Matsui will end up winning. Also because all of the Japenese people will vote for him.

In the National League...Bob Abreu has a legit gripe, but personally one of the worst defensive outfielders ive ever witnessed, and I hate the Phillies...Juan Pierre should not be on here (would love to see JD Drew on this vote)...Jason Kendall is decent, I guess, Aramis Ramirez should be on the team, however I'm siding with Jack McKeon on selecting Barry Larkin, he's having a decent season--probably his last season, he deserves it. Steve Finley is also having an awesome season on a bad team.

My votes: Paul Konerko, Aramis Ramirez (hon. mention Steve Finley)

American League All-Stars

Starters:
Ivan Rodriguez, DET
Jason Giambi, NYY
Alfonso Soriano, TEX
Alex Rodriguez, NYY
Derek Jeter, NYY
Manny Ramirez, BOS
Vladimir Guerrero, ANA
Ichiro Suzuki, SEA

Pitchers:
Tim Hudson, OAK
Ted Lilly, TOR
Esteban Loaiza, CWS
Mark Mulder, OAK
Kenny Rogers, TEX
C.C. Sabathia, CLE
Curt Schilling, BOS

Relievers:
Francisco Cordero, TEX
Tom Gordon, NYY
Joe Nathan, MIN
Mariano Rivera, NYY
Francisco Rodriguez, ANA

Reserves:
Victor Martinez, CLE
Ken Harvey, KC
David Ortiz, BOS
Ron Belliard, CLE
Hank Blalock, TEX
Carlos Guillen, DET
Miguel Tejada, BAL
Michael Young, TEX
Carl Crawford, TB
Matt Lawton, CLE
Gary Sheffield, NYY

National League All-Stars

Starters:
Mike Piazza, NYM
Albert Pujols, STL
Jeff Kent, HOU
Scott Rolen, STL
Edgar Renteria, STL
Barry Bonds, SF
Ken Griffey, CIN
Sammy Sosa, CHC

Pitchers:
Roger Clemens, HOU
Tom Glavine, NYM
Livan Hernandez, MON
Randy Johnson, ARI
Carl Pavano, FLA
Jason Schmidt, SF
Ben Sheets, MIL
Carlos Zambrano, CHC

Relievers:
Armando Benitez, FLA
Eric Gagne, LA
Danny Graves, CIN
Danny Kolb, MIL

Reserves:
Johnny Estrada, ATL
Sean Casey, CIN
Todd Helton, COL
Jim Thome, PHI
Mark Loretta, SD
Mike Lowell, FLA
Barry Larkin, CIN
Jack Wilson, PIT
Moises Alou, CHC
Carlos Beltran, HOU*
Lance Berkman, HOU
Miguel Cabrera, FLA

*- Beltran cannot play in the actual game but can participate in the festivities. He was selected to the All-Star game for the American League while with the KC Royals. However, the rule is that when you are selected to the All-Star game, then are traded to a different league, the votes do not carry over to the other league.

I thought Adrian Beltre of the Dodgers got snubbed. He's having a great year. 4th in the NL in Home Runs. Most by a 3rd baseman in the NL. The best fielding percentage 3rd baseman in the NL. This is a career year for him. 55 RBIs... and all of this while playing on a very bad ankle. I guess the All-Star break will help him rest that ankle, but it still would be nice to call him an All-Star because his numbers warrant an All-Star selection.

Also, it will be fun watching Roger Clemens throwing to Mike Piazza. They'll be professional about it, but it's hard to forget the history between those two. Then you have the Future Hall of Fame outfield for the NL with Griffey JR., Sosa and Bonds. Wow. Randy Johnson, Tom Glavine and Roger Clemens are all on the team - more future Hall of Famers. This will be an interesting game.


Piazza will be professonal about it. Not sure about Clemens.

Piazza will be professonal about it. Not sure about Clemens.
I think Roger will be professional about it as well. He's at his home park. All of his family will be there. This isn't a playoff series. It's a game for the fans (although home field advantage for the WS is at stake). He'll probably just pitch 1 or 2 innings any way with guys like Jason Schmidt, Randy Johnson and Tom Glavine on the bench.

The MLB All-Star game has got to be the weakest All-Star game in sports.

Wow.

Ronnie Belliard?
your saying he isnt worthy? who is more worthy? Bret Boone? :joker:

your saying he isnt worthy? who is more worthy? Bret Boone? :joker:
His numbers are good.

But the MLB All-Star game is a joke.

His numbers are good.

But the MLB All-Star game is a joke.
the guy is at worst the 2nd best at his position in the al, how is he not an all-star?

i agree with the guy who said jd drew should be on there... he'll be one of those atlanta *steals* within two years

the guy is at worst the 2nd best at his position in the al, how is he not an all-star?
Yes, through 78 games he's probably the third best 2B in the AL.

But, I'll take any of these guys over Ronnie Belliard...

Michael Young
Fonzy Soriano
Orlando Hudson

And maybe...

Brett Boone

Yes, through 78 games he's probably the third best 2B in the AL.

But, I'll take any of these guys over Ronnie Belliard...

Michael Young
Fonzy Soriano
Orlando Hudson

And maybe...

Brett Boone

Young is going to the All-Star game as a SS...hasn't played 2B all year......

Young is going to the All-Star game as a SS...hasn't played 2B all year......
Oh right.

I still think of him as a 2B.

Yes, through 78 games he's probably the third best 2B in the AL.

But, I'll take any of these guys over Ronnie Belliard...

Michael Young
Fonzy Soriano
Orlando Hudson

And maybe...

Brett Boone
maybe they have better futures, but this isnt a futures game. Boone doesnt deserve crap, hit for something close to a decent average and you can be an all-star.

maybe they have better futures, but this isnt a futures game. Boone doesnt deserve crap, hit for something close to a decent average and you can be an all-star.
Yes, Belliard deserves to be an all-star right now.

That is why the MLB all-star game is pathetic.

Yes, Belliard deserves to be an all-star right now.

That is why the MLB all-star game is pathetic.

:dunno:

Isn't the All-Star game, a game for the best players so far this season?

:dunno:

Isn't the All-Star game, a game for the best players so far this season?
Techincally yes, but since they have to include someone from every team, I'd say no now.

Im a Jays fan, but seriously, Lilly isn't an all-star, this year at least. No one should really be representing them at all. Just too many injuries.

I think Batista should have went at least he is more deserving

the ASG is a total joke anyway

Javier Vazquez of the Yankees was added to the AL Team in place of Tim Hudson, who is on the DL.

Paul Lo Duca of the Dodgers was added to the NL Team in place of Sean Casey, who is also on the DL.

The reason the all-star game is so stupid is because people that aren't great ballplayers are able to make the team by having a nice start to the season. Ron Belliard is not an all-star, but because he was able to put up good numbers for one HALF of a season, he gets to make the team. That's what's so stupid about the system. If a guy has a great second half, he wouldn't make the team, so why should someone having a great first half make it?

Bret Boone may be having a poor year so far, but he has proven that he is capable of living up to an all-star standard. Ron Belliard can't say that much.

The reason the MLB all-star game is such a joke is because people put WAY too much stock into numbers compiled over the first 50 games of the season.

Bret Boone may be having a poor year so far, but he has proven that he is capable of living up to an all-star standard. Ron Belliard can't say that much.

The reason the MLB all-star game is such a joke is because people put WAY too much stock into numbers compiled over the first 50 games of the season.
If he wants to be an all-star, he should play like it. He has played like crap, so he doesnt deserve to be there. By your logic, no rookies should ever make it.

Paul Lo Duca of the Dodgers was added to the NL Team in place of Sean Casey, who is also on the DL.
Why not put Beltre on the team, instead of Lo Duca? Unless there's a rule I'm not aware of. Doesn't really make sense to me. :dunno:

This is a homer vote, but I wish Chone Figgins could have made the All-star team.

If he wants to be an all-star, he should play like it. He has played like crap, so he doesnt deserve to be there. By your logic, no rookies should ever make it.

I'm not really against rookies making it as much as I'm against players that have proven they're mediocre making it.

I have no problem with Miguel Cabrera making it, because I'm sure he's for real. Ron Belliard though?

I'm not really against rookies making it as much as I'm against players that have proven they're mediocre making it.

I have no problem with Miguel Cabrera making it, because I'm sure he's for real. Ron Belliard though?

It's the 2004 MLB all star game...not the 2000-2004 all star game

Why not put Beltre on the team, instead of Lo Duca? Unless there's a rule I'm not aware of. Doesn't really make sense to me. :dunno:

This is a homer vote, but I wish Chone Figgins could have made the All-star team.
I agree. I love Paul and I'm glad he's going to represent the Dodgers along with Gagne at the ASG once again. However, Beltre should have been on the NL All-Star Team to begin with over Mike Lowell. I think Lowell's had a good year, but come on... Beltre has been the Dodgers' MVP. He's hit more home runs than any 3rd baseman in both leagues (23 HRs) and 56 RBIs with a .315 BA and .580 Slugging %. Not to mention, he's one of the best defensive/fielding 3rd basemen in baseball.

Just like Dan McGillis 03 said, it's the 2004 MLB All-Star game. It's not about what you've done in the past (or in Beltre's case, what you haven't done). It's about what you've done from the beginning of the season up to this point. If people are not choosing Beltre just because this is the first year he's played like an All-Star and it's all because it's his contract year... then that is just pure BS. It's about who's having a good year to date. Beltre is having a career year. His numbers suggest he should be there.

But I guess it's just as well anyway. Beltre's got a bad ankle. He will need the rest to gear up for the rest of the season. Dodgers can't afford to lose him as they are trying to win a pennant.

BTW, I like Chone Figgins. He's been awesome for the Angels when they had so many players out at the same time. Doesn't he lead the league in Triples or something? Man, is he fast. :amazed:

It's the 2004 MLB all star game...not the 2000-2004 all star game

But the 2004 season isn't even halfway complete by the time voting starts. I nominate people who are stars. Not people who suck but are having a nice start to the season.

Jesus, now Vazquez is going to replace Hudson.

Vazquez
Rivera
Gordon
Giambi
Jeter
A-Rod
Matsui
Sheffield

8 FRIGGEN' YANKES! :banghead:

I'm not really against rookies making it as much as I'm against players that have proven they're mediocre making it.

I have no problem with Miguel Cabrera making it, because I'm sure he's for real. Ron Belliard though?
Your right, send Bret Boone and his .230 something average over Belliard and his position leading .310 average :shakehead I mean he is 21 points ahead of the next closest player, its a flat out joke he isnt starting, yet you say he doesnt deserve to be there at all?

Your right, send Bret Boone and his .230 something average over Belliard and his position leading .310 average :shakehead I mean he is 21 points ahead of the next closest player, its a flat out joke he isnt starting, yet you say he doesnt deserve to be there at all?

I'm not saying Bret Boone should have made the team, what I'm saying is this:

At the end of the year, Boone won't be hitting .230, and Belliard won't be hitting .310. I would have Soriano starting the All-star game for sure. After that it's tough to say. Second base is a pretty weak position in the AL.

No, Belliard doesn't deserve to be there in my opinion. He isn't an all-star. He's had a good HALF of the season, but that's it.

Think about what I said earlier:

A guy has a brilliant first half, and a ****** second half, and he's considered an "all-star"

A guy has a ****** first half, and a brilliant second half, and he ISN'T considered an "all-star."

Does that makes sense? Of course it doesn't. That's why I try to vote for players that I know are for real instead of potential flukes like Ron Belliard.

Your right, send Bret Boone and his .230 something average over Belliard and his position leading .310 average :shakehead I mean he is 21 points ahead of the next closest player, its a flat out joke he isnt starting, yet you say he doesnt deserve to be there at all?

It's not a flat out joke he isn't starting. Soriano definetely deserves to start over Belliard. As it is, IMO, I don't think he really deserves to be there either. If Belliard's consistant with his .310 average, then we'll look back and see it as a good choice. Unfortunately, that likely won't happen, and we'll look back on it that Bret Boone probably did deserve to be there over him.

The MLB all-star game is a joke. They should just select the best players, even if it becomes the Yankees versus the NL, and leave it at that. The NHL sort of has a similar problem, except they have the YoungStars game, so the All-Stars usually all should be there.

The only guy I'd REALLY argue to kick off the team would be Giambi.

Who'd you put in his place?

Mark Texiera?

Good choice. He's been very good this season, and IMO, a big part in this Ranger's turn around. Alot better stats than Giambi, too. But, Texeira plays for the Rangers, while Giambi's a Yankee. It's pretty obvious who the fans would vote for. Giambi's the more household name, too.

Mark Texiera?

I think the only reason he isnt there is because for the 1st month and a half, he was hitting around .230, then got hurt for a few weeks...however, ever since he's come back, he's been on fire, but I think the poor start killed his chances.

I'd vote for Giambi...if only because it would be the first appearance for a parasite in the All star game. ;)

Schilling's gone down with an ankle injury. I wonder who'll replace him. The way this all-star game is going, it'll probably be Mike Mussina.

should be Lee, i mean the guy is like 8-1 or something.

I think it should be Johan Santana.

I think it should be Johan Santana.
Westbrook got it, and deservedly so. hart to a lot of heat for giving up Justice to get Westbrook, especially considering the season Justice was having, but right now I bet you the Yankees would kill to have Westbrook.

Westbrook got it, and deservedly so. hart to a lot of heat for giving up Justice to get Westbrook, especially considering the season Justice was having, but right now I bet you the Yankees would kill to have Westbrook.
I'll take david justice and the 2000 world series win over a guy that has had a decent first half of the season.

I'll take david justice and the 2000 world series win over a guy that has had a decent first half of the season.

Absolutely right.

A guy puts up a 3.21 ERA in one half a season and suddenly he's an all-star and the Yankees should be kicking themselves. :shakehead

His K/9 rate is a lousy 4.73. His K/BB rate is a mediocre 1.6. His 99 hits in 106 innings is nothing to write home about. Even if you're the kind of guy who believe that wins are a relevant stat: he's 6-4.

And it's not like he has a reputation of being a great pitcher either. I can't believe this guy got in over Johan Santana and Keith Foulke (among others.) Unfathomable.

I'm willing to bet that if Westbrook maintains that K-rate and K/BB ratio, then his ERA will be around 4.5-5.0 by the end of the season

Absolutely right.

A guy puts up a 3.21 ERA in one half a season and suddenly he's an all-star and the Yankees should be kicking themselves. :shakehead

His K/9 rate is a lousy 4.73. His K/BB rate is a mediocre 1.6. His 99 hits in 106 innings is nothing to write home about. Even if you're the kind of guy who believe that wins are a relevant stat: he's 6-4.

And it's not like he has a reputation of being a great pitcher either. I can't believe this guy got in over Johan Santana and Keith Foulke (among others.) Unfathomable.

I'm willing to bet that if Westbrook maintains that K-rate and K/BB ratio, then his ERA will be around 4.5-5.0 by the end of the season
The guy had a great 2nd half last season, and started this year in the pen, explaining his low win totals and ip, not to mention the fact that all tribe starters have been robbed of at least 4 wins each by their bullpens crappyness lol. Look at Sabathia, cy young candidate, allowed 1 run in his first 2 starts, pitched 15 inning, but his record was 0-0. Only Lee(8-1) seems to have avoided the bullpen curse. And I didnt say they were kicking themselves, just that the yankees crappy roatation could use a guy like Westbrook. Another thing, Justice probably didnt bring the yankees that world series.

The guy had a great 2nd half last season, and started this year in the pen, explaining his low win totals and ip, not to mention the fact that all tribe starters have been robbed of at least 4 wins each by their bullpens crappyness lol. Look at Sabathia, cy young candidate, allowed 1 run in his first 2 starts, pitched 15 inning, but his record was 0-0. Only Lee(8-1) seems to have avoided the bullpen curse.

Still, I don't think you can justify taking him -- the fifth Indian -- over Keith Foulke or Johan Santana. Although Santana is pitching today so maybe that's why he's overlooked. In any case, if I tried, I could probably name 5 other pitchers I'd rather see than Jake Westbrook.

Still, I don't think you can justify taking him -- the fifth Indian -- over Keith Foulke or Johan Santana. Although Santana is pitching today so maybe that's why he's overlooked. In any case, if I tried, I could probably name 5 other pitchers I'd rather see than Jake Westbrook.
You could send 7 Indians and justify every pick. If their bullpen era was below 6, and their save rate higher than 45, they are first place easily. I said over a month ago that they are a good team cursed witht he worst bullpen of all time, and that a team with a top 3 rotation, and top 5 offence would normally be a force. Obviously you guys are having a hard time accepting that. The only reason you guys put up any debate is because the Indians are 4 games under .500 and a handful of games(7 I think) out of first. If the Indians were in first, there would be no debate.

You could send 7 Indians and justify every pick. If their bullpen era was below 6, and their save rate higher than 45, they are first place easily. I said over a month ago that they are a good team cursed witht he worst bullpen of all time, and that a team with a top 3 rotation, and top 5 offence would normally be a force. Obviously you guys are having a hard time accepting that. The only reason you guys put up any debate is because the Indians are 4 games under .500 and a handful of games(7 I think) out of first. If the Indians were in first, there would be no debate.

You make it sound like bullpens are just randomly drawn out of a hat. Sorry, but the bullpen is a part of a team. If the bullpen is terrible, then the team isn't very good. That's like saying that the Penguins are an awesome team cursed with a bad defense. :lol

And no -- I couldn't care less where the Indians are in the standings. That's completely irrelevant. In fact, I had no idea where they were in the standings when I typed that.

It's just there are many pitchers still out there that are better than Jake Westbrook.

edit: God, why am I up at 3 am arguing about this like it's even important? I probably won't even watch the all-star game. Lol

And no -- I couldn't care less where the Indians are in the standings. That's completely irrelevant. In fact, I had no idea where they were in the standings when I typed that.

It's just there are many pitchers still out there that are better than Jake Westbrook.

edit: God, why am I up at 3 am arguing about this like it's even important? I probably won't even watch the all-star game. Lol
Well, you can say what you want, but when Vazquez was picked to go in place of Hudson, I said right away Westbrook or Lee should have gone. I personally would have gone with Lee, as he has the best winning percentage of any full time starter in the majors I think, and a decent era, but I can fully understand Westbrook and his era going. And yeah I know the bullpen is part of the team, but we arent talking about the team, we are talking about the player, and the player would have more wins without such a crappy bullpen. And no, the pens arent a great team cursed with horrible defence. They are decent goalies cursed with a horrible team. :joker: And about Santana, all he has on Westbrook is strikeouts, why would you take him? Truth is, only Martinez of the pitchers not going is more worthy, but he already declined.

Hold on a sec.

Are you a Tribe fan?

Cause if you are I'm just gonna stop now. :P

Hold on a sec.

Are you a Tribe fan?

Cause if you are I'm just gonna stop now. :P
yeah I am, but surely you have to agree this isnt a bad pick. You naming 5 other people is just stupid, because you cant. Martinez not included you could name Santana, and thats it. The only thing Santana has on Westbrook is k's. Westbrook is pitching at an elite level, the same level as guys like Mulder, Sabathia and Hudson. The top 3 AL pitchers at the moment, surely he deserves to go.

yeah I am, but surely you have to agree this isnt a bad pick. You naming 5 other people is just stupid, because you cant. Martinez not included you could name Santana, and thats it. The only thing Santana has on Westbrook is k's. Westbrook is pitching at an elite level, the same level as guys like Mulder, Sabathia and Hudson. The top 3 AL pitchers at the moment, surely he deserves to go.

LOL @ "The only thing Santana has on Westbrook is K's"

Yeah, and walks, Batting average against, WHIP, you name it.

Let me rephrase that for you:

The only thing that Westbrook has on Santana is ERA.

To say he's on the same level as Mulder is laughable. Let me name those five pitchers for you:

Johan Santana
Roy Halladay
Keith Foulke
Eddie Guardado
Mark Buehrle

Admittedly, two of those pitchers maybe haven't been quite as good as Westbrook so far this year, but I still think they're better pitchers. I'm the guy that hates using half a season's worth of stats to determine all-stars, remember.

LOL @ "The only thing Santana has on Westbrook is K's"

Yeah, and walks, Batting average against, WHIP, you name it.

Let me rephrase that for you:

The only thing that Westbrook has on Santana is ERA.

To say he's on the same level as Mulder is laughable. Let me name those five pitchers for you:

Johan Santana
Roy Halladay
Keith Foulke
Eddie Guardado
Mark Buehrle

Admittedly, two of those pitchers maybe haven't been quite as good as Westbrook so far this year, but I still think they're better pitchers. I'm the guy that hates using half a season's worth of stats to determine all-stars, remember.
None of them have been as good as Westbrook this year actually, and all of them have something in common besides that, they arent going to the all star game. BTW, as far as stats go, WHIP and BAA are about as irrelevant as they come. Mind you, I think they do have there importances, the 2 big stats are era and wins. every other pitching stat is a sub-category, and each contributes to the end result.You say Santana has a better BAA, but I'll bet you its higher than Westbrook with risp.

Holy ****.

You honestly think Jake Westbrook is a better pitcher than Johan Santana.

And of course they aren't going to the all-star game!! That ws the whole point! I said I'd name five pitchers I'd put on the AS team before Westbrook and that's what I did.

BAA and WHIP are irrelevant? They dictate how many baserunners a pitcher has allowed. They are extremely relevant. My god. You are ONLY using ERA to judge pitchers, and that's just insanity since it can be a VERY misleading statistic.

Holy ****.

You honestly think Jake Westbrook is a better pitcher than Johan Santana.

I'm done with this.
Its not about who's better, its about who's having a better season. A concept you have failed to grasp.

Its not about who's better, its about who's having a better season. A concept you have failed to grasp.

We've already had this argument. It's retarded tovote players on who's having a better season because when the voting starts, we are only about 30 games in. Bad players can go on good streaks, that's a concept you've failed to grasp. Just because that good streak HAPPENS to come at the very start of the season does not mean they warrent all-star appearances IMO.

Mind you, I think they do have there importances, the 2 big stats are era and wins. every other pitching stat is a sub-category, and each contributes to the end result.


I STRONGLY disagree with this, but we'll discuss this in another thread at another time.

You say Santana has a better BAA, but I'll bet you its higher than Westbrook with risp.

BAA w/ RISP

Santana: .175
Westbrook: .200

Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?ageMax=99&hand=a&league=al&sort=opponentAvg&seasonType=2&type=pitch4&split=39&pos=all&season=2004&ageMin=0&qual=false&count=41)

Guess again.

We've already had this argument. It's retarded tovote players on who's having a better season because when the voting starts, we are only about 30 games in. Bad players can go on good streaks, that's a concept you've failed to grasp. Just because that good streak HAPPENS to come at the very start of the season does not mean they warrent all-star appearances IMO.
Westbrook wasnt voted in, he was hand picked by Joe Torre.

Westbrook wasnt voted in, he was hand picked by Joe Torre.

Oh yeah, what was I thinking? Sorry, it's 4 AM.

Santana is still doing better though, especially lately. Hell, just look at their recent game logs:

SANTANA

Jul 6 | 9.0 IP | 3 H | 0 R | 2 BB | 13 K |
Jul 1 | 8.0 IP | 3 H | 2 R | 2 BB | 12 K|
Jun 25 | 7.0 IP | 4 H | 1 R | 0 BB | 10 K |
Jun 20 | 8.0 IP | 4 H | 2 R | 2 BB | 12 K |

WESTBROOK

Jul 9 | 6.1 IP | 8 H | 4 R | 4 BB | 2 K |
Jul 4 | 6.2 IP | 6 H | 1 R | 3 BB | 3 K|
Jun 29 | 6.0 IP | 9 H | 6 R | 2 BB | 8 K |
Jun 24 | 6.0 IP | 4 H | 3 R | 2 BB | 6 K |


I mean, it's not even really close.

I STRONGLY disagree with this, but we'll discuss this in another thread at another time.



BAA w/ RISP

Santana: .175
Westbrook: .200

Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?ageMax=99&hand=a&league=al&sort=opponentAvg&seasonType=2&type=pitch4&split=39&pos=all&season=2004&ageMin=0&qual=false&count=41)

Guess again.
Well, you can say he is merely having a great first half, but since last year's all-star break he does have a 3.66 era. Santana has a 3.57 era since then. That's not a huge difference, but then again, Westbrook is merely only having a solid first half right?

Well, you can say he is merely having a great first half, but since last year's all-star break he does have a 3.66 era. Santana has a 3.57 era since then. That's not a huge difference, but then again, Westbrook is merely only having a solid first half right?

I can't wait to revisit this at the end of the season when Westbrook's ERA is in the mid-to-high 4's. :)

Oh yeah, what was I thinking? Sorry, it's 4 AM.

Santana is still doing better though, especially lately. Hell, just look at their recent game logs:

SANTANA

Jul 6 | 9.0 IP | 3 H | 0 R | 2 BB | 13 K |
Jul 1 | 8.0 IP | 3 H | 2 R | 2 BB | 12 K|
Jun 25 | 7.0 IP | 4 H | 1 R | 0 BB | 10 K |
Jun 20 | 8.0 IP | 4 H | 2 R | 2 BB | 12 K |

WESTBROOK

Jul 9 | 6.1 IP | 8 H | 4 R | 4 BB | 2 K |
Jul 4 | 6.2 IP | 6 H | 1 R | 3 BB | 3 K|
Jun 29 | 6.0 IP | 9 H | 6 R | 2 BB | 8 K |
Jun 24 | 6.0 IP | 4 H | 3 R | 2 BB | 6 K |


I mean, it's not even really close.
This is contradictory to your entire arguement that a player can make it in purely on a good stretch. You are using each pitchers last 4 starts to make a point.

I can't wait to revisit this at the end of the season when Westbrook's ERA is in the mid-to-high 4's. :)
I can tell by the smiley its a joke, but you have to be honest. after 30 games, you may have a point saying its too early, but we are nearing 100 games, and he has 20 starts almost. The guy has proven at least for this year he is for real. Maybe he'll drop a little bit, but His era will remain under 4 this year. I'll tell you what, Lee isnt getting any talk for some reason. His era in 3.95 which is pretty good, but the man is an astonishing 8-1. He will likely only get stronger as the season wears on, and if the tribe behind their outstanding starting rotation dont make a push for the title this year(unlikely since Sabathia got hurt), next year they should win 90 games. Assuming they fix that bullpen. Wait, did I mean bullpen? Cuz I meant septic tank.

This is contradictory to your entire arguement that a player can make it in purely on a good stretch. You are using each pitchers last 4 starts to make a point.

No I'm not. I'm disputing what you've said about who's having the better year.

Santana got off to a horrible start to the seaosn, but has really turned it around. Over the last 2-3 weeks he's arguably been the best pitcher in the AL. SO if Torre was supposed to pick the player doing the best at the time (as you say,) then he should have picked Santana.

In fact, I'll bet you that they were going to pick Santana, but he wasn't able to go due to the fact that he's pitching tonight.

I can tell by the smiley its a joke, but you have to be honest. after 30 games, you may have a point saying its too early, but we are nearing 100 games, and he has 20 starts almost. The guy has proven at least for this year he is for real. Maybe he'll drop a little bit, but His era will remain under 4 this year. I'll tell you what, Lee isnt getting any talk for some reason. His era in 3.95 which is pretty good, but the man is an astonishing 8-1. He will likely only get stronger as the season wears on, and if the tribe behind their outstanding starting rotation dont make a push for the title this year(unlikely since Sabathia got hurt), next year they should win 90 games. Assuming they fix that bullpen. Wait, did I mean bullpen? Cuz I meant septic tank.

I'm a firm believer that strikeout rates and walk rates can dictate how a pitcher will perform. Usually when a pitcher has very poor strikeout rates and bad walk rates, but their ERA is low, it means they've been a little lucky. And, usually it means their ERA is subject to go up. The reason for that is that if their strikeout rate is around 4.5, it usually means their "stuff" isn't very good. However, pitchers with mediocre ability can still do well if their control is good, like Jamie Moyer. The thing is though, Westbrook's control doesn't appear to be that great either.

Look, I don't know for sure if these things with regards to Westbrook are true, because I haven't had the opportunity to see him pitch much. This is just what I'm inferring based on the stats. Time will tell if I'm right or wrong.

I'm teasing when I say his ERA's gonna be up around five, because as you say he's had success for awhile so he must be doing something right, but I think it'll be around 4.30