Devils To Trade Gomez

Posted in the NY Post. We all know how reliable Everson can be...usually borders guesswork.

http://www.nypost.com/sports/devils/26281.htm

How quickly the face of the Devils may be changing!!!

Stevens I'd say is a longshot at best to return healthy at this late stage in his career, Madden may be out the door as a UFA, Nieds will go to arbitration for the yr and then test the UFA market which means bye-bye NJ, Burns' future is uncertain and now Gomez may be dealt.

If I were Lou I'd trade Nieds and get something while you can and start a rebuild in NJ because without these core pieces of the last decade what else is left? :dunno:

How quickly the face of the Devils may be changing!!!

Stevens I'd say is a longshot at best to return healthy at this late stage in his career, Madden may be out the door as a UFA, Nieds will go to arbitration for the yr and then test the UFA market which means bye-bye NJ, Burns' future is uncertain and now Gomez may be dealt.

If I were Lou I'd trade Nieds and get something while you can and start a rebuild in NJ because without these core pieces of the last decade what else is left? :dunno:


Yeah ,what else is left besides Brodeur, Elias, (we won't get anybody for Gomez in a deal, right), Rafalski, White, Martin,Gionta, Langenbrunner, Friesen, Parise, etc...This team is really gonna suck :shakehead ....don't worry JR #9...Lundmark and Blackburn are gonna save the Rangers right?

this is such bs

Is Neverson really that bored that he has to write something as silly as this? I mean come on. Is he kidding? If we deal Gomez, I want Ovechkin or Malkin coming back in the deal and thats not happening. Gomez isn't going anywhere.

When I see this reported by Brooks I'll believe it! :joker:

Why would Gomez get 5 mil? Thorton only got 5.5 mil last year. I think more in the range of 3-4 mil is more likely.

:shakehead ....don't worry JR #9...Lundmark and Blackburn are gonna save the Rangers right?

No thats Pavel Brendl's job.... oh wait.......

We can't sue this guy for libel or anything?

I love the rumor. I think it's going to be true as well, cause Lou doesn't like a newly improved defensive player, a guy who led the league in assists, and is such a nice guy, and was the hottest player in the 2nd half, that really means JACK SQUAT!

Gomez dosnt even have arbitration rights ...

Gomez dosnt even have arbitration rights ...

Can't every RFA file for arbitration?

Regardless, this is nothing more than wild speculation.

This rumor makes no sense. Gomez doesn't have arbitration rights. And five million? More like three.

Funny how the article has a picture of Friesen instead.

I would trade Niedermayer! He is going to leave anyways.

Scott Niedermayer and Ari Ahonen to Vancouver for Bryan Allen and Mattias Ohlund

I would trade Niedermayer! He is going to leave anyways.

Scott Niedermayer and Ari Ahonen to Vancouver for Bryan Allen and Mattias Ohlund

Idiots from Vancouver refuse to trade Ohlund. I've been trying for weeks to get a Niedermayer/Ohlund deal done.

Yeah ,what else is left besides Brodeur, Elias, (we won't get anybody for Gomez in a deal, right), Rafalski, White, Martin,Gionta, Langenbrunner, Friesen, Parise, etc...This team is really gonna suck :shakehead ....don't worry JR #9...Lundmark and Blackburn are gonna save the Rangers right?


After Elais and Broduer that is a VERY average lineup at best and the prospect pool is practically bare save for Parise so keep beating that chest over the teams future.

And no, Blackburn and Lundmark won't save the NYR's but they took a turn in the right direction and are aquiring some very good young talent to go along with the resources they always have in cash flow so things are certainly looking up at MSG as oppossed to the upcoming down cycle the Devils will soon be entering so instead of the usual 12k at games get ready for the 6k crowd nights in the swamp.

Yeah ,what else is left besides Brodeur, Elias, (we won't get anybody for Gomez in a deal, right), Rafalski, White, Martin,Gionta, Langenbrunner, Friesen, Parise, etc...This team is really gonna suck :shakehead ....don't worry JR #9...Lundmark and Blackburn are gonna save the Rangers right?


After Elais and Broduer that is a VERY average lineup at best and the prospect pool is practically bare save for Parise so keep beating that chest over the teams future.

And no, Blackburn and Lundmark won't save the NYR's but they took a turn in the right direction and are aquiring some very good young talent to go along with the resources they always have in cash flow so things are certainly looking up at MSG as oppossed to the upcoming down cycle the Devils will soon be entering so instead of the usual 12k at games get ready for the 6k crowd nights in the swamp.

Maybe he meant trade Friesen?

Can't every RFA file for arbitration?

Regardless, this is nothing more than wild speculation."Wild speculation?"

It isn't even that. It is a poor writer's attempt to get back some readers since he has been on vacation for the past month. Neverson has NEVER EVER written anything remotely close to the truth when it comes to Devils dealings. He is yellow journalism personified, and it works -- look at this thread.

After Elais and Broduer that is a VERY average lineup at best and the prospect pool is practically bare save for Parise so keep beating that chest over the teams future.

And no, Blackburn and Lundmark won't save the NYR's but they took a turn in the right direction and are aquiring some very good young talent to go along with the resources they always have in cash flow so things are certainly looking up at MSG as oppossed to the upcoming down cycle the Devils will soon be entering so instead of the usual 12k at games get ready for the 6k crowd nights in the swamp.
:troll:

Its hard to say our prospects pool is low when HF has us ranked at #4.

After Elais and Broduer that is a VERY average lineup at best and the prospect pool is practically bare save for Parise so keep beating that chest over the teams future.

And no, Blackburn and Lundmark won't save the NYR's but they took a turn in the right direction and are aquiring some very good young talent to go along with the resources they always have in cash flow so things are certainly looking up at MSG as oppossed to the upcoming down cycle the Devils will soon be entering so instead of the usual 12k at games get ready for the 6k crowd nights in the swamp.

Before you start making erroneous comments, make sure you do your research. I'll adress the prospect pool first - HF ranked us #4 in the league in terms of qualify of the prospect pool. Fourth in the league. That is hardly a bare organization, and while Parise is the best, there's also Suglobov, Foster, Pihlman, Pikkarainen, Nittel, Voros, Vrana, Tallackson, Laine, Kadeykin, Ahonen... all of whom are quality prospects on both ends of the ice.

And if you want to call our lineup "average" go right ahead. People have been calling our lineup average since 1994.

After Elais and Broduer that is a VERY average lineup at best and the prospect pool is practically bare save for Parise so keep beating that chest over the teams future.

And no, Blackburn and Lundmark won't save the NYR's but they took a turn in the right direction and are aquiring some very good young talent to go along with the resources they always have in cash flow so things are certainly looking up at MSG as oppossed to the upcoming down cycle the Devils will soon be entering so instead of the usual 12k at games get ready for the 6k crowd nights in the swamp.

Oh Geez..another Ranger fan who knows very little about the Devils. The prospect pool is far from bare,...with Hale, Martin, Parise, Ahonen, Suglobov, Pihlman, Kadeykin, etc...The difference is JR 9...we have a GM who you can trust to make good financial moves and personnel moves...Not a GM who wastes 3 or 4 years before hiring Trottier..oh sorry...himself...oh sorry...maybe an assistant..oh sorry maybe himself again...will anyone coach the Rags? It's truly an embarassing situation..but don't worry you picked up a lot of average prospects at the trade deadline last year....It's ok..I heard
Stephane Quintal is available again...

Our future isnt bright unless Lou trades Niedermayer and pays Brylin, Stevenson and Madden. Neither 4 things will happen.

Our future isnt bright unless Lou trades Niedermayer and pays Brylin, Stevenson and Madden. Neither 4 things will happen.


So dumb..you don't trade the best defenseman in the league..you do everything in your power to get him resigned and playing here for the next 5 years...Lou will definitely resign Madden.

Our future isnt bright unless Lou trades Niedermayer and pays Brylin, Stevenson and Madden. Neither 4 things will happen.
Stevenson is always injured, Madden wants to stay in New Jersey, Brylin won't be making too much. That leaves Niedermayer who may or may not be a Devil after this up coming year.

Our future isnt bright unless Lou trades Niedermayer and pays Brylin, Stevenson and Madden. Neither 4 things will happen.

Oh come on....

Our future isnt bright unless Lou trades Niedermayer and pays Brylin, Stevenson and Madden. Neither 4 things will happen.That's not even close to true. If Niedermayer leaves after going UFA next year, it will hurt, but it isn't going to kill us. Yes he is an amazing defenseman, but he isn't the lone reason we won 40+ games again. We have two great puck movers in Rafalski and Martin. If Nieds leaves, we will find somebody to replace him.

Do we all want Niedermayer to stay? Duh. If he leaves though, the cupboard isn't bare. Hale and Martin will continue to improve. Lou has never shied away from making a FA signing in the past. If he needs to do so again, he will. Saying Niedermayer's leaving will cause our future to be less than bright with the core group of forwards we have and the strong prospects we have developing is a little dooms-dayish if you ask me. And you didn't ask me, but I'm stating it anyway.:)

Idiots from Vancouver refuse to trade Ohlund. I've been trying for weeks to get a Niedermayer/Ohlund deal done.

Look at the 14th post. http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=84497&page=1&pp=15

Can't every RFA file for arbitration?

Regardless, this is nothing more than wild speculation.

Looking up the arbitration rules: http://www.nhlfa.com/CBA/cba_agreement12.asp

First Contract Signing Age Minimum Level of
Professional Experience
Required to be
Eligible for Salary
Arbitration

18-20 5 years professional experience
21 4 years professional experience
22-23 3 years professional experience
24 2 years professional experience
25 and older 1 year professional experience

A player aged 18 or 19 earns a year of "professional
experience" by playing ten or more NHL games (regular season
and/or playoffs) in a given season. A player aged 20 or above
(or who turns 20 between September 16 and December 31 of the year
in which he signs his first Player Contract) earns a year of
professional experience by playing ten or more professional games
under NHL contract in a given season.

======

Gomez signed his first contract between 18-20 and has 5 years or professional service, so I think he does have rights. Not every RFA is arbitration eligible. Guys like Gaborik and Havlat last year hadn't reached 5 years of service yet, so they just held out.

Suglobov, Foster, Pihlman, Pikkarainen, Nittel, Voros, Vrana, Tallackson, Laine, Kadeykin, Ahonen... all of whom are quality prospects on both ends of the ice.

And if you want to call our lineup "average" go right ahead. People have been calling our lineup average since 1994.


Yeah, that certainly looks like one of the top prospect pools in the entire NHL. :amazed:

And people do call the Devs average since '94 because it's always been about playing the "system" in NJ and that why the players all became interchangable and when you play the punk system that's been killing hockey for the last decade it has a way of making the team much better than the sum of it's part and that certainly been the case in NJ.

Stevens is done.

Madden may stay but it won't be at a discount rate as some sort of an alligance to Fat Lou.If Lou doesn't pay John will be gone.

Nieds will take the 1 yr arbitration award and he will look for a change of pace next summer and that should be apparent to all.

But keep on going ga-ga over the above prospect pool to keep you from going into the down cycle and see where it gets you.

Yeah, that certainly looks like one of the top prospect pools in the entire NHL. :amazed:

Better than the Ragners, and you can't argue that.
Madden may stay but it won't be at a discount rate as some sort of an alligance to Fat Lou.If Lou doesn't pay John will be gone.
You'd be worshipping Lou if he was in NY. He is the best GM in the NHL and just because he doesn't have the same deep pockets as your boy Sather doesn't mean he is cheap. Its a pretty safe bet that Madden will stay put.
But keep on going ga-ga over the above prospect pool to keep you from going into the down cycle and see where it gets you.
Elias
Brodeur
Niedermayer
Gomez
White
Madden
Rafalski

The Devils know how to develop talent, more than we can say for another metro area team.

Lou would never tip his hand and there are no leaks in the organization. This is mere speculation and pure filler. Not worth the paper it was printed on.

BTW, if Lou trades Gomez, it better be for Ovechkin.

And don't be surprised if Dallas lets Arnott walk. If so, then Jason could be reunited with Patrick and Gionta would stay at right wing on that line. But that would only happen if Gomez is dealt, and after his second half and playoff, he should stay.

Nieder for Ohlund and a pick or prospect would not be a bad deal. But Nieder goes only if he'll be here for just one more year. BTW, does anyone know what Ohlund's contract is? I rather have Eddie Jo, but I'd settle for Mattias.

Take care!!! :)

I heard that Anahiem is packaging Sykora and Salei, I think it was posted here.........hmm....... Lou bringing back both? Yeah, right, neither is coming back.

I'd rather have Ohlund than Jovo. Jovo supposively has brain cramps and Ohlund does not.

Looking up the arbitration rules: http://www.nhlfa.com/CBA/cba_agreement12.asp

First Contract Signing Age Minimum Level of
Professional Experience
Required to be
Eligible for Salary
Arbitration

18-20 5 years professional experience
21 4 years professional experience
22-23 3 years professional experience
24 2 years professional experience
25 and older 1 year professional experience

A player aged 18 or 19 earns a year of "professional
experience" by playing ten or more NHL games (regular season
and/or playoffs) in a given season. A player aged 20 or above
(or who turns 20 between September 16 and December 31 of the year
in which he signs his first Player Contract) earns a year of
professional experience by playing ten or more professional games
under NHL contract in a given season.

======

Gomez first contract was the 1999-2000 season as he was a rookie when we won the cup in 2000. That would be 4 years professional service. His birthday is 12/23/79 which would have made him 20 during his first season. That would be he isn't eligible for arbitration, correct????

Better than the Ragners, and you can't argue that.

.

I would argue that, especially with the draft on Saturday and the NYR's having 7 of the top 51 picks including 6th overall.

BTW, if Lou trades Gomez, it better be for Ovechkin.


Nieder for Ohlund and a pick or prospect would not be a bad deal. But Nieder goes only if he'll be here for just one more year. BTW, does anyone know what Ohlund's contract is? I rather have Eddie Jo, but I'd settle for Mattias.

:)

Gomez for Ovechkin??? :shakehead That has a legit shot at happening,

And Vancouver would never deal Ohlund for Nieds at this point and all the factors involved including Scott's UFA status, his big money$ arbitration award he'll get for the yr and the fact that they could sign him for nothing and pair him w/Ohlund next yr.

Gomez for Ovechkin??? That has a legit shot at happening,

Not only Gomez you idiot.


Rangers fans think they have a decent prospect base because their AHL team did so well. They also forget that the average age of their AHL team is something along the lines a 24.5, meaning its full of NHL busts and career minor league players.

If Gomez is going to be traded, we'll get a boatload for him. He probably has as much trade value as any center in the league. 24 year old, low salary (even 3 million is low), great trap buster, doesn't get injured easily...

The Devils know how to develop talent, more than we can say for another metro area team.

Well that "other metro team" just waits until other teams develop the talent, the talent gets old as dirt, and then signs them. That "other metro team" trades a crackerjack of a d-man + others for a bust prima-donna (prima-dunham if you will) goalie.

I'm sorry rags fans. I couldn't help myself. It's not your fault the rags are the most poorly managed team in all of professional sports.

Not only Gomez you idiot.


Rangers fans think they have a decent prospect base because their AHL team did so well. They also forget that the average age of their AHL team is something along the lines a 24.5, meaning its full of NHL busts and career minor league players.

If Gomez is going to be traded, we'll get a boatload for him. He probably has as much trade value as any center in the league. 24 year old, low salary (even 3 million is low), great trap buster, doesn't get injured easily...

Gomez + what will get you Ovechkin big guy?

As for the Hartford team, if you had a clue you'd realize that most of our top prospects weren't even on the team so before opeing your mouth calling people idiots now what you're talking about.

As for Gomez and his 3 million dollar price tag you claim will allow for a huge return are you that, well I won't get into that but you ddo realzie the reason for a potential trade will be the huge arbitration award he'll likely recieve smart guy? :dunno:

Gomez + what will get you Ovechkin big guy?

As for the Hartford team, if you had a clue you'd realize that most of our top prospects weren't even on the team so before opeing your mouth calling people idiots now what you're talking about.

As for Gomez and his 3 million dollar price tag you claim will allow for a huge return are you that, well I won't get into that but you ddo realzie the reason for a potential trade will be the huge arbitration award he'll likely recieve smart guy? :dunno:

Are you that daft? It was merely a side-comment. If we trade Gomez we'd better be getting back BIG value.

Gomez + what will get you Ovechkin big guy?

As for the Hartford team, if you had a clue you'd realize that most of our top prospects weren't even on the team so before opeing your mouth calling people idiots now what you're talking about.

As for Gomez and his 3 million dollar price tag you claim will allow for a huge return are you that, well I won't get into that but you ddo realzie the reason for a potential trade will be the huge arbitration award he'll likely recieve smart guy? :dunno:

Let's look at your prospect ranking on HF... Hmmm.... a whopping 29th out of 30. Now, we up you a little bit because you have acquired some good prospects since then. Say, to 15th.
That's still not very good. And which of our teams has a better record devolping prospects? And keeping them? All you have to do is look at the drafting records. The Rangers have done alright.... but the Devils have been amazing.

Niedermayer will never re-sign here, except it!!

Are you that daft? It was merely a side-comment. If we trade Gomez we'd better be getting back BIG value.


BIG difference between calling for good value to come back the other way,totally different story when you mentioning a guy who scouts are saying is the best prospect since Lemieux coming back for a Gomez.

Gomez first contract was the 1999-2000 season as he was a rookie when we won the cup in 2000. That would be 4 years professional service. His birthday is 12/23/79 which would have made him 20 during his first season. That would be he isn't eligible for arbitration, correct????

He was 19 when he signed the contract, but that doesn't really matter since they lumped 18-20 year olds into the same bracket. So under my interpretation, Gomez has five years of professional service now. 99-00, 00-01, 01-02, 02-03, 03-04.

Gimmie a break. He's still a prospect. Daigle was the best prospect since Yashin, and what he he done?

An offer from Calgary boards which I'm anrgrily denouncing....

To CAL: Gomez, third rounder 2004
To NJD: Gauthier, first rounder 2004

I just don't see how this helps us. Gomez and Elias comprise our entire offense. We lose one and don't replace his scoring... well....

Some things NEVER change.

Every summer, the perennial Cup contenders (Devils, Avs, Wings) are reported to be falling apart...and each fall, winter and especially spring, they prove otherwise.

Devils are already in transition. This was a transition season. Stevens' injury simply accelerated that evolution a bit. The difference is, the great franchises maintain respectability (or better) while a changing of the guard takes place. As such, the idea that NJD has to or will "rebuild" is a stretch, to be kind, IMO.

As for NJD's perceived weaknesses: the parts, on paper, often look ordinary. However, the sum of those parts, once on ice, render results, on a regular basis.

Yeah, that certainly looks like one of the top prospect pools in the entire NHL. :amazed:

And people do call the Devs average since '94 because it's always been about playing the "system" in NJ and that why the players all became interchangable and when you play the punk system that's been killing hockey for the last decade it has a way of making the team much better than the sum of it's part and that certainly been the case in NJ.

Stevens is done.

Madden may stay but it won't be at a discount rate as some sort of an alligance to Fat Lou.If Lou doesn't pay John will be gone.

Nieds will take the 1 yr arbitration award and he will look for a change of pace next summer and that should be apparent to all.

But keep on going ga-ga over the above prospect pool to keep you from going into the down cycle and see where it gets you.


And people call Ranger fans obnoxious...shocking isn't it?
:dunno:

Some things NEVER change.

Every summer, the perennial Cup contenders (Devils, Avs, Wings) are reported to be falling apart...and each fall, winter and especially spring, they prove otherwise.

Devils are already in transition. This was a transition season. Stevens' injury simply accelerated that evolution a bit. The difference is, the great franchises maintain respectability (or better) while a changing of the guard takes place. As such, the idea that NJD has to or will "rebuild" is a stretch, to be kind, IMO.

As for NJD's perceived weaknesses: the parts, on paper, often look ordinary. However, the sum of those parts, once on ice, render results, on a regular basis.

So tell me Trotts, you didn't see a totally different Devil team the 2nd hald of last yr and especially in the playoffs then the one you saw in years past???? :dunno:

With Stevens done and Nieds looking to bolt next yr and possibly Madden this yr how can you not say they have trouble on the horizon.

Where are replacements for these guys going to come from??Obviously Hale is not close to the "next Stevens" as NJD fans projected him to be.Martin is a nice young player but is certainly no Niedermayer.

What players are on the cusp on not only making the jump but making a significant contrabution???

Not only to denounce the idiocy that is Mark Neverson but also to give the Devils Due some free pub, you can read today's rebuff of ol' Mark (http://www.nj.com/weblogs/devils/).

So tell me Trotts, you didn't see a totally different Devil team the 2nd hald of last yr and especially in the playoffs then the one you saw in years past???? :dunno:

With Stevens done and Nieds looking to bolt next yr and possibly Madden this yr how can you not say they have trouble on the horizon.

Where are replacements for these guys going to come from??Obviously Hale is not close to the "next Stevens" as NJD fans projected him to be.Martin is a nice young player but is certainly no Niedermayer.

What players are on the cusp on not only making the jump but making a significant contrabution???The difference between the Devils and the Rangers is that Lou is in constant motion of change. Stevens has been on Lou's soon-to-be-gone list for the past two seasons. That is why they have Hale . . . for the future. I know it is difficult for you to understand that word. Until the last few months, the only context a Ranger fan would know how to use the word "future" would have been as in to sacrifice it for the present.

Hale may not be Stevens yet, but he was drafted to be that type of player later on in his career. And by the way, you said yourself that the Devils were a system of average players. Why would it matter if one of our "above average" players like Niedermayer would happen to bolt the team? If it truly is a system as you said, the Devils could just replace him with another "above average" player right? That's what I thought.

The difference between the Devils and the Rangers is that Lou is in constant motion of change. Stevens has been on Lou's soon-to-be-gone list for the past two seasons. That is why they have Hale . . . for the future. I know it is difficult for you to understand that word. Until the last few months, the only context a Ranger fan would know how to use the word "future" would have been as in to sacrifice it for the present.

Hale may not be Stevens yet, but he was drafted to be that type of player later on in his career. And by the way, you said yourself that the Devils were a system of average players. Why would it matter if one of our "above average" players like Niedermayer would happen to bolt the team? If it truly is a system as you said, the Devils could just replace him with another "above average" player right? That's what I thought.


Now I don't agree with JR for 98% of his argument, but one thing I will whole heartedly agree with him is that far too many Devils fans act like replacing Stevens and Neidermayer won't be overly difficult.

You can't have your cake and eat it to.

Either Stevens IS a top 20 ALL-TIME NHL defenseman and Niedermayer is a top 3 current NHL defenseman .... which in that case would make it nearly impossible to repalce them with a reasonable fascimille.

or

It's the system, it's all about the system etc. etc.

If the Devils were looking at losing Rafalski and White .. and replaceing them with Martin and Hale that's one thing ... but Stevens and Niedermayer is a whole different story.

This happens every year and Gomez does not get traded... :shakehead But I do not think Lou will pay Gomez 5.5 million either... So somehow the two sides have to agree otr Gomez could be gone and here comes Parise in the wings...

Now I don't agree with JR for 98% of his argument, but one thing I will whole heartedly agree with him is that far too many Devils fans act like replacing Stevens and Neidermayer won't be overly difficult.

You can't have your cake and eat it to.

Either Stevens IS a top 20 ALL-TIME NHL defenseman and Niedermayer is a top 3 current NHL defenseman .... which in that case would make it nearly impossible to repalce them with a reasonable fascimille.

or

It's the system, it's all about the system etc. etc.

If the Devils were looking at losing Rafalski and White .. and replaceing them with Martin and Hale that's one thing ... but Stevens and Niedermayer is a whole different story.



Stevens and Niedermayer are not replaceable... Stevens IS a top 20 ALL-TIME NHL defenseman and Niedermayer is a top 3 current NHL defenseman .... which in that case would make it nearly impossible to replace them with a reasonable fascimille...

You can't have your cake and eat it to.

Either Stevens IS a top 20 ALL-TIME NHL defenseman and Niedermayer is a top 3 current NHL defenseman .... which in that case would make it nearly impossible to repalce them with a reasonable fascimille.

or

It's the system, it's all about the system etc. etc.

If the Devils were looking at losing Rafalski and White .. and replaceing them with Martin and Hale that's one thing ... but Stevens and Niedermayer is a whole different story.John, I respectfully disagree. Not only am I going to have my cake, I'm going to eat the whole thing. Here's why . . .

The Devils system is by far the most important player on the team. By that I mean that the the constant emphasis placed on backchecking is more important than any one player on this team -- even Stevens, Niedermayer, and (gasp!) Brodeur. Replacing Stevens will be more than a chore, but instead of looking for one guy to do this, the Devils will rely on the system to cover for him. This worked well in the regular season, but the Flyers exploited the Devils glaring weakness (lack of physical depth on the blueline) in the playoffs.

So is David Hale going to replace Stevens by himself? No way! But, if he plays sound defense and is a physical force in the low slot, the system will continue to produce wins.

So that begs the question you proposed. Is it the system or the player? I've always said it is the system in New Jersey . . . But! I am always one to defend Stevens as a top 20 defenseman for the other things he does. To be cliche, the intangibles. Like the open-ice hits for one. They have done more for Stevens' legend than the Conn Smythe ever did (he won the award partially because of those hits). Besides that, the opposition had to be aware of him when he was on the ice. Forget the headman passes. Nobody was going to look down at the puck when Stevens was patrolling the blue line.

Hale doesn't have that. He may never have that. He probably won't ever be considered a top 20 defenseman like Stevens, but because of the system the Devils play, he doesn't really have to. Stevens certainly benefitted from the Devils' system, but the reason he is such a defensive legend goes beyond his play. He brought fear to the opposition, and for that he is regarded as one of the best to ever play the game.

John, I respectfully disagree. Not only am I going to have my cake, I'm going to eat the whole thing. Here's why . . .

The Devils system is by far the most important player on the team. By that I mean that the the constant emphasis placed on backchecking is more important than any one player on this team -- even Stevens, Niedermayer, and (gasp!) Brodeur. Replacing Stevens will be more than a chore, but instead of looking for one guy to do this, the Devils will rely on the system to cover for him. This worked well in the regular season, but the Flyers exploited the Devils glaring weakness (lack of physical depth on the blueline) in the playoffs.

So is David Hale going to replace Stevens by himself? No way! But, if he plays sound defense and is a physical force in the low slot, the system will continue to produce wins.

So that begs the question you proposed. Is it the system or the player? I've always said it is the system in New Jersey . . . But! I am always one to defend Stevens as a top 20 defenseman for the other things he does. To be cliche, the intangibles. Like the open-ice hits for one. They have done more for Stevens' legend than the Conn Smythe ever did (he won the award partially because of those hits). Besides that, the opposition had to be aware of him when he was on the ice. Forget the headman passes. Nobody was going to look down at the puck when Stevens was patrolling the blue line.

Hale doesn't have that. He may never have that. He probably won't ever be considered a top 20 defenseman like Stevens, but because of the system the Devils play, he doesn't really have to. Stevens certainly benefitted from the Devils' system, but the reason he is such a defensive legend goes beyond his play. He brought fear to the opposition, and for that he is regarded as one of the best to ever play the game.

The system will certainly help, not doubting that.

Hale and Martin will certainly be better players for New Jersey than they would for the Rangers.

However, as good as the system is, it NEEDS ELITE players to keep the Devils on the level of a Stanley Cup Contender.

The system will certainly help, not doubting that.

Hale and Martin will certainly be better players for New Jersey than they would for the Rangers.

However, as good as the system is, it NEEDS ELITE players to keep the Devils on the level of a Stanley Cup Contender.
I don't think its set in stone that Lou will stand pat.

I don't think its set in stone that Lou will stand pat.

I'm not saying that he will, and IMO Niedermayer will be a Devil long-term.

My point was that IF the Devils lose both, it will be a HUGE, loss for the Devils.

The system will certainly help, not doubting that.

Hale and Martin will certainly be better players for New Jersey than they would for the Rangers.

However, as good as the system is, it NEEDS ELITE players to keep the Devils on the level of a Stanley Cup Contender.No arguments here. I think the Devils don't skip a beat though if they can get a top physical defenseman who eats up 23+ minutes of ice timer per match. There aren't too many of those guys around right now though. I remember a time when the league was starved for elite, offensive defensemen. Now it seems starved for physical blueliners who can log big minutes.

I'm not saying that he will, and IMO Niedermayer will be a Devil long-term.

My point was that IF the Devils lose both, it will be a HUGE, loss for the Devils.
Thats true, you can't lose two high calibur players and expect to be the same team.

So tell me Trotts, you didn't see a totally different Devil team the 2nd hald of last yr and especially in the playoffs then the one you saw in years past???? :dunno:

JR, I did. This Devils team was not going to win the Cup short of a mini-miracle. Heading into the playoffs, they still had experience and Brodeur on their side, but Stevens' value to the team is incalculable, no doubt. But, it's from here where we part company, somewhat...

With Stevens done and Nieds looking to bolt next yr and possibly Madden this yr how can you not say they have trouble on the horizon.

I have no information that suggests Stevens is done. If he were, we'd know it. And I certainly don't expect a mid-June pronouncement from Lou that "Stevens is rip-roaring ready to go!". Who knows? I think it is wishful thinking on the part of some that he will never play again. Could very well be the case, but at this point it is an assumption.

More to the point, even if he were to return, he won't play forever. But his presence does buy more needed time to develop the young corp of D talent that NJD possesses. And, personally, I'm pretty impressed with the likes of Martin, Hale and even White, who is far from old. None will ever be Stevens, but it's not like the well is dry. Critical to all of this, however, is getting Neidermayer to return. If Stevens retires and if SN is not resigned, then you have issues. But we don't know that. As far as Madden goes. A superb contributor. But in the Devils system, no forward is irreplacable, really. Just ask Bobby Holik (and Alex Mogilny).

Where are replacements for these guys going to come from??Obviously Hale is not close to the "next Stevens" as NJD fans projected him to be.Martin is a nice young player but is certainly no Niedermayer.

Any fan projecting anyone to be the next Stevens ought to read up on their Hockey 101. :joker: And you are correct, none of the young guys should or can be expected to assume the MAJOR roles of SS and SN (and perform as well), certainly not in the immediate future. But that makes for a team in transition (which the Devils already are), not a team that needs to rebuild.

What players are on the cusp on not only making the jump but making a significant contribution???

Again, let's see what happens first. I read Everson's column. Its pure speculation. And you know that Lou would get a good return were he to move Gomez. Regardless, let's say that Stevens retires and Madden walks.

That's impetus to blow up the squad?

When you have Elias, Gomez, Brodeur, Niedermayer and a faceless, yet productive supporting cast, you add to it, For Madden is outstanding, yet replacable. Stevens is not "replacable, per se, but do you re-engineer your entire yeam over one player? Especially when that team is 12 months removed from a Cup?

Again, SN needs to be re-signed. And even then, this team, on paper, is not the Cup favorite heading into next season. But they weren't in '02-'03 either, on paper.

So, likely, they are taking a step or two backward. But no need to force five unnecessary steps backward. For if you start cleaning house of veteran players, you may be able to replace their talent in time, but you cannot replace the immense and invaluable amount of winning experience this squad has. That experience will serve them well as they move into the Post-Stevens Era, whenever that occurs.

As for up and coming talent: Parise, and to a lesser extent, Pihlman, Suglobov and even Foster, if he ever stays healthy, are names one reads about in the pipeline. And its worth noting that very young NHLers like Gionta and the aforementioned dmen have a good chance to get better.

Why plunge into rebuilding headfirst when there is no need or urgency to do so. And it's easier to build on an existing foundation than to start from scratch.

Idiots from Vancouver refuse to trade Ohlund. I've been trying for weeks to get a Niedermayer/Ohlund deal done.

so now Vancouver fans are "idiots" because we don't want to deal our #1 dman???

listen to some of the other posters here if you won't listen to the canuck fans.... I believe it was JR#9 who mentioned this a couple pages back about why the canucks wouldn't deal Ohlund for Niedermayer.

Guarentee the canucks that there will not be a lockout next season (so we don't deal for a RFA who's 1 yr from UFA status), that he will sign a long term deal with the canucks, and that he is seriously considering the UFA market and has other teams above Vancouver on his list...

if this happens, I'd probably do a Ohlund for Nieds deal.

But the fact is that a lockout is very likely, and dealing our top dman for a guy that might not play a game for us as a RFA, where we could simply just sign him the following year for free, makes zero sense to me.

but then... what do I know... I'm one of those that wouldn't deal Ohlund for Niedermayer, so I must be an idiot :dunno:

Would a possible Jason Smith + Horcoff or one of our C prospects interest you guys for Gomez?

We have Pouliot and Niinimaki as talented C's in our talent pool.

Pouliot is a more sure bet but with less potential. Niinimaki is a boom or bust guy. But his boom would be elite 1st line C, whereas Pouliot's is likey a great 2nd line C or an average top line C. Think Morrison on the nucks.

Or Horc who is great both ways, has increased his point every year he has been in the league, is young and hasn't reached his celing yet. I think he could do well on the Devils actually. He'll likely never replace Gomez's offense but Jason Smith on the D would make up for that.

Or if not this then what might interest you guys?

I would argue that, especially with the draft on Saturday and the NYR's having 7 of the top 51 picks including 6th overall.

Week, week, week draft. The curse of the Rangers. :lol:

Would a possible Jason Smith + Horcoff or one of our C prospects interest you guys for Gomez?

We have Pouliot and Niinimaki as talented C's in our talent pool.

Pouliot is a more sure bet but with less potential. Niinimaki is a boom or bust guy. But his boom would be elite 1st line C, whereas Pouliot's is likey a great 2nd line C or an average top line C. Think Morrison on the nucks.

Or Horc who is great both ways, has increased his point every year he has been in the league, is young and hasn't reached his celing yet. I think he could do well on the Devils actually. He'll likely never replace Gomez's offense but Jason Smith on the D would make up for that.

Or if not this then what might interest you guys?
I'd love Jason Smith to come back to New Jersey, but not at the price of Gomez. If we get rid of Gomer with out replacing his offense then the team has issues.

I'd love Jason Smith to come back to New Jersey, but not at the price of Gomez. If we get rid of Gomer with out replacing his offense then the team has issues.


Understood, that is why I offered up some not bad C prospects to replace him. But if there isn't interest that is cool. I just thought that with Stevens a maybe for next and and for sure not long for this league, Smith might make some people jump a bit.

Best of luck guys!

I hope you can hold onto Gomez. That kid is a player

Isn't Smith a UFA after this season just like Niedermayer?

if so that's gotta seriously hurt his value... also could be a good signing in a year's time for the Devils if he is a UFA then.

I don't see the Devils dealing Gomer, but if we do, we better get someone pretty damn good for him. Ovechkin was just an example. We would obviously have to sweeten the pot to get Big Al. I would love to have him, but I don't want to dismantle the team.

As for Nieder, we may have to settle for a player of lesser talent. How about Nieder and Pandolfo for Derek Morris and Cale Hulse, or something to that effect? Or just for Morris. Anyway, you get my drift.

Elias--Gomez--Gionta
Friesen--Parise--Bondra
Madden<-->Hrdina--Langenbrunner
Brylin or Rolston<-->Rasmussen--Marshall
Kozlov and Sandy McCarthy

Rafalski--Hale
Morris--White
Hulse or Bob Boughner--Martin
Sean Brown

Marty
Ahonen
Wade Flaherty (Albany)


That looks like a pretty nice lineup to me. :)

BTW, I never called anyone an "idiot." Someone took it out of context if I did use the word in a post. Nice to be back. ;)

After Elais and Broduer that is a VERY average lineup at best and the prospect pool is practically bare save for Parise so keep beating that chest over the teams future.

I agree that after those two players, the Devils have a very average lineup. I don't agree with your statement about the prospect pool being bare after Parise. I'm pretty sure guys like Suglobov, Vrana, Khomutov, Ahonen, etc. are decent enough to at least earn some respect.

As for the rumor, I'll believe it when I see it. There's no reason to trade Gomez other than to save a few bucks. So with Stevens AND Niedermayer possibly gone, why trade one of the other core guys when you've already saved money?

BTW, I never called anyone an "idiot." Someone took it out of context if I did use the word in a post. Nice to be back. ;)

I don't know if you were referring to my post above, but I responded (quoting) Flame-Star-Devil, who seems to think that the canucks fans (seemingly all of us) that don't want to do a Ohlund-Niedermayer swap are idiots... that's what I quoted and was referring to.

I also don't see Phoenix doing that deal either.

The way I see it right now, no one is going to give up much of value for Niedermayer at this point... not until we know if there is going to be a next season (and not lose Niedermayer for nothing, while giving up assets to acquire his rights for a season that might never happen), or until he signs a longer term deal (in which case Jersey has no reason to deal him), so the team acquiring him has some assurances.

But seriously, why would anyone make a major deal right now for a RFA who's 1yr from UFA status, heading into a year where many "experts" are predicting gets wipped out by a lockout??

would you give up a young top player in your lineup, for a better older player, 1 yr from UFA status, not knowing if there is a season coming up??

I don't believe we have to honor the last year of Scott Stevens' contract if he retires. That saves us almost $7 million. Enough to raise the salaries of Gomez AND Nieder to market value and possibly avoid arbitration.

We shall see. The next few days should be very interesting, to say the least.

Elias--Gomez--Gionta
Friesen--Parise--Bondra
Madden<-->Hrdina--Langenbrunner
Brylin or Rolston<-->Rasmussen--Marshall
Kozlov and Sandy McCarthy

Rafalski--Hale
Morris--White
Hulse or Bob Boughner--Martin
Sean Brown

Marty
Ahonen
Wade Flaherty (Albany)Why Bondra? I mean obviously I'd like to have him on the team, but if we are going to sign anybody as a UFA, I want Kris Draper. Put Parise, Friesen and Langs together. That will be a strong second line in both scoring and backchecking. Throw Draper on the Madden-Pando line as a winger, and that might be the best checking line in the league in terms of speed, defense, and timely scoring. Rasmussen, Hrdina and Stevenson/Marshall/Brylin will round out the fourth line. I'd like to forget the Kozlov experiment ever happened by the way.:)

I know gomez's agent he is eligible for arbritration because they are supposed to be putting together a power point presentation I have a very little bit on my computer. They are asking for around 4 mil but will settle for 3. If they don't get what they want he wants to be traded to tampa bay lightning (this was before they won the stanley cup)

I know gomez's agent he is eligible for arbritration because they are supposed to be putting together a power point presentation I have a very little bit on my computer. They are asking for around 4 mil but will settle for 3. If they don't get what they want he wants to be traded to tampa bay lightning (this was before they won the stanley cup)If that's true, done and done. Lock him up Lou. $3 to $4 million is just right.

Guarentee the canucks that there will not be a lockout next season (so we don't deal for a RFA who's 1 yr from UFA status), that he will sign a long term deal with the canucks, and that he is seriously considering the UFA market and has other teams above Vancouver on his list...
A deal could be worked out contingent upon Niedermayer signing a four or five year Contract.

I THINK, that if we trade Gomez, we'd need a play making/ goal scoring center, someone who can do both.......but honestly, who's available that fits that bill?

I THINK, that if we trade Gomez, we'd need a play making/ goal scoring center, someone who can do both.......but honestly, who's available that fits that bill?Exactly. Neverson's article was nothing but a ploy to get people talking and get hits to their website. Why then are we discussing this? Perhaps Lou has forgotten how to run a hockey team. I'd sooner believe that Osama Bin Laden is an innocent victim in life.

so now Vancouver fans are "idiots" because we don't want to deal our #1 dman???

listen to some of the other posters here if you won't listen to the canuck fans.... I believe it was JR#9 who mentioned this a couple pages back about why the canucks wouldn't deal Ohlund for Niedermayer.

Guarentee the canucks that there will not be a lockout next season (so we don't deal for a RFA who's 1 yr from UFA status), that he will sign a long term deal with the canucks, and that he is seriously considering the UFA market and has other teams above Vancouver on his list...

if this happens, I'd probably do a Ohlund for Nieds deal.

But the fact is that a lockout is very likely, and dealing our top dman for a guy that might not play a game for us as a RFA, where we could simply just sign him the following year for free, makes zero sense to me.

but then... what do I know... I'm one of those that wouldn't deal Ohlund for Niedermayer, so I must be an idiot :dunno:

I understand your logic, and idiot was a bit harsh, and I apologize. JR here got me riled up.
But I still think it's foolish to assume you can get Niedermayer a season from now when you can get him right now. Swap #1 defensemen.... and Niedermayer >>> Ohlund.

I understand your logic, and idiot was a bit harsh, and I apologize. JR here got me riled up.
But I still think it's foolish to assume you can get Niedermayer a season from now when you can get him right now. Swap #1 defensemen.... and Niedermayer >>> Ohlund.

I understand your logic as well... and I would never call you an idiot (you seem like a very reasonable guy ;) but the fact is (at least IMO)...

Between now and next year, Niedermayer's value goes from Ohlund + a draft pick (if not more) to a 2nd round compensation pick from the league...

The closer it gets to this time next year, the closer Niedermayer comes to becoming an unrestricted free agent, and thus, the value of Niedermayer goes way down...

IMHO, if Scott doesn't want to re-sign with NJ (which is a big IF)... the Canucks have a legitimate chance to sign him via UFA... at least a better than average chance... IF Scott doesn't want to be in NJ anymore, the reasonable assumption to me is that he wants to play close to home (for family reasons)... Not become an UFA for the money, not for the glory of winning a cup (NJ can give him those two things just as much as Colorodo, Detroit, and any other team in the league)...

If we take him off of NJ, Colorodo, or any other team (assuming you trade Scott before he becomes an UFA) doesn't matter to us at all... I personally wouldn't get into a bidding war this year for him... IMHO, the only way the Canucks will get Scott is if he wants to play here (to end his career)... If he's not set at ending his career here, trading for him would be useless - as we wouldn't be able to pay him what other teams could when he becomes an UFA... Even if we traded for him, unless he wants to play here long-term, there's a good chance he'd still become an UFA next year - as we aren't able to outbid the money-rich teams... Thus, we'd lose him for nothing... not to mention that we also lost Ohlund+...

And if Scott wants to end his career here, we can get him via UFA in a year's time at any rate for nothing... risk vs. reward...

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and maybe I'm just an idiot, but I don't understand how this is foolish?

To summarize, the Canucks need Scott to want to play for Vancouver (and no other team)... The Canucks need Scott to want to play here long term... Unless this is the case, there is no way the Canucks will be able to offer Scott what certain other teams can... We'd easily lose him via UFA...

Given that this is what we need... and assuming that Scott indeed wants to play for Vancouver long-term... if we trade for him now, or if we wait for UFA, doesn't make a huge difference (other than we get another year of his services)... and IMO, one more year of Scott is not worth Ohlund+... a 1st round draft pick, yes ;) Ohlund+, no :thumbd:

Do you think that Scott would sign with Vancouver as an UFA? Do you think that Scott would want to end his career here?

If yes, then does it make sense to trade Ohlund+ for 1 more year of service?
If no, then does it make sense to trade Ohlund+ for only 1 year of service?

IMO, in both cases, no...

Where have I heard this before? :D

I understand your logic as well... and I would never call you an idiot (you seem like a very reasonable guy ;) but the fact is (at least IMO).....

Followed by argument.


AMaaT, yes, I understand your logic as well. Perhaps I even agree with it to an extent. But the goal of the league is to win the cup, and Vancouver has a legitemate chance to win NOW. Who knows what will happen between now and a year from now? Of course, the CBA throws everything off, but for the most part we've both been assuming there isn't going to be a lockout for the purposes of these debates. As a Devils fan, I've learned very well that the goal is always to win, whatever the cost. Niedermayer makes Vancouver a better team, even if it costs them Ohlund. I suppose that's just how I look at it.

That doesn't mean I would, say, support trading the farm... I mean, I want to make sure I get fair value for all assets or no deal. That logic is what is driving me to want to trade Niedermayer now...or lose him in free agency, because compensation is rediculious for RFAs.

For the most part, we're both rehashing old arguments. I think we'll just agree to disagree in this particular case, okay? ;)

I apologize again for the idiot comment. If Mizral reads that, I'll never hear the end of it. :help: None of you are idiots, it's just I disagree with your logic. Happens all the time.

For the most part, we're both rehashing old arguments. I think we'll just agree to disagree in this particular case, okay? ;)

Okay...

I apologize again for the idiot comment. If Mizral reads that, I'll never hear the end of it. :help: None of you are idiots, it's just I disagree with your logic. Happens all the time.

No problem at all... We (Canucks fans) have been called a lot worse ;)

The Islanders traded Terry Crisp to the Flyers way back when for Jean Potvin. They then drafted Denis Potvin with the first overall pick in 1973. By trading for Denis's brother, they felt that it would keep him from signing with a WHA team. They were right. Funny that the WHA is being resurrected again. Just a coincidence.

How about trading for Rob Niedermayer to keep brother Scott in New Jersey? If we trade for Rob and sign him to a multi-year deal, it may entice Scott to stay a Devil for the rest of his career.

Just a thought. :)

How about trading for Rob Niedermayer to keep brother Scott in New Jersey? If we trade for Rob and sign him to a multi-year deal, it may entice Scott to stay a Devil for the rest of his career.

Just a thought.
That's a good idea. The Boston Red Sox did it with Pedro Martinez as well. It might work. Rob may be had for a 3rd Round Pick and maybe throw in a second-tier prospect.

The Islanders traded Terry Crisp to the Flyers way back when for Jean Potvin. They then drafted Denis Potvin with the first overall pick in 1973. By trading for Denis's brother, they felt that it would keep him from signing with a WHA team. They were right. Funny that the WHA is being resurrected again. Just a coincidence.

How about trading for Rob Niedermayer to keep brother Scott in New Jersey? If we trade for Rob and sign him to a multi-year deal, it may entice Scott to stay a Devil for the rest of his career.

Just a thought. :)

I think it would be a good move and it would work. I really do. Picking up Rob would be a fantastic move.

Let's look at your prospect ranking on HF... Hmmm.... a whopping 29th out of 30. Now, we up you a little bit because you have acquired some good prospects since then. Say, to 15th.

the rangers could very easily slide into top 10. Aside from the recent players they got in trades (pock, Immonen, Balej, Kondratiev, Heerema, Liffiton, etc) we also hold 7 of about the first 50 picks, as well as some extras for next year, too.

On top of that, that stale ranking doesnt include the rapid rise of players like Dawes, Labarbera, and Prucha, Tjutin's very strong showing in the 2nd half, or the continued development of Lundqvist.

the rangers could very easily slide into top 10. Aside from the recent players they got in trades (pock, Immonen, Balej, Kondratiev, Heerema, Liffiton, etc) we also hold 7 of about the first 50 picks, as well as some extras for next year, too.

On top of that, that stale ranking doesnt include the rapid rise of players like Dawes, Labarbera, and Prucha, Tjutin's very strong showing in the 2nd half, or the continued development of Lundqvist.

The names and skills mean a whole lot less than the devolpment. If I was a Ranger fan, that's what I would be worried about... because NY hasn't done it effectively for a while. And when they have, the players have been traded pretty quick. That should change and I expect it to... but don't be surprised if the same cycle starts again.

the rangers could very easily slide into top 10. Aside from the recent players they got in trades (pock, Immonen, Balej, Kondratiev, Heerema, Liffiton, etc) we also hold 7 of about the first 50 picks, as well as some extras for next year, too.

On top of that, that stale ranking doesnt include the rapid rise of players like Dawes, Labarbera, and Prucha, Tjutin's very strong showing in the 2nd half, or the continued development of Lundqvist.
Yeah, well they will still suck. They are the laughing stock of pro sports.

Idiots from Vancouver refuse to trade Ohlund. I've been trying for weeks to get a Niedermayer/Ohlund deal done.

I'm from Vancouver, are you sure you want to insult the commish of the GM Game? ;)

Yeah, well they will still suck. They are the laughing stock of pro sports.

Exactly. They may have some "solid" prospects, great picks, etc. Too bad they'll deal them all away eventually for the rights to Brian Noonan and Greg Gilbert.

I'm from Vancouver, are you sure you want to insult the commish of the GM Game? ;)

I already apologized. Twice. :(

If that's true, done and done. Lock him up Lou. $3 to $4 million is just right.


$3 Million or $3.5 would be fare. Gomez deserves it and Lou knows it!

A deal could be worked out contingent upon Niedermayer signing a four or five year Contract.

I agree... but how do we know for sure that he wouldn't have signed that contract a year later (or even the next hockey season in the event of a lockout) if we don't deal Ohlund??

like I said, we can still get him for nothing as a UFA.... and when you consider the lockout as well as his speculated desire to play in Vancouver, it still makes no sense to deal for him.

the biggest factor in all this, and why Nieds value is going to be down right now, is the potential lockout... that no team in the league can guarentee either way.

Like I asked before, would you be willing to make a deal like that if the tables are turned? where you have a good young player (say White), and deal him for an older player who's better, but 1 yr from UFA status, when you're facing a potential lockout?

the Canucks here would have everything to lose, and for the Devils, dealing Niedermayer would be a positive, as they get something for him before he can walk... the risk for the Devils is even better dealing him if there is a lockout, because then they would really be getting something for nothing.

To be totally honest, at this point (right now in the offseason) I wouldn't even deal Malik for him straight up... I'm beginning to feel that a lockout is looming, and a full season can be wiped out - so why deal anything for something we can get for free in the next hockey season?

but I ask again, would you deal White for say Gonchar (for example) (or *name a Jersey dman* for Smith)? Gonchar (or Smith) is the better dman, but if there is a lockout, you lose White, and Gonchar(/Smith) becomes a UFA without playing a game as a Devil... would that be worth it for the Devils?

no one's arguing who the better overall player is... Niedermayer would be an upgrade on our defense over Ohlund... but I'm still waiting to be convinced by any of you guys wanting to deal Niedermayer, that the risk of a lockout is still worth getting Niedermayer a year earlier, for our current #1 dman... please try and explain this to me, because I dont' see it any other way.

For the most part, we're both rehashing old arguments. I think we'll just agree to disagree in this particular case, okay? ;)


yes... the old arguments are being rehashed...

but what no one has yet answered for me is that would you guys as Devils fans, make a trade like that if the tables are turned??

you have to also consider reality - the possibility of a lockout... you can't ignore that factor right now as it effects any and every transaction (whether trades, signings, extensions etc) that happens in the NHL.

so would you deal a top young dman for an older better, even elite, one, knowing that there is a chance for a lockout, and you could be dealing for a guy that is hitting UFA status, not RFA status, when the league resumes?

for this reason, I don't think that any team is going to deal for Niedermayer right now.... the risk is way too big, and especially for Vancouver, the reward (getting him 1 season earlier at the cost of Ohlund) is just not worth it.

Yeah, well they will still suck. They are the laughing stock of pro sports.


Seems I'll have to remember the next time I want to hold an intelligent conversation to try a different board.

Like I asked before, would you be willing to make a deal like that if the tables are turned? where you have a good young player (say White), and deal him for an older player who's better, but 1 yr from UFA status, when you're facing a potential lockout?

If a long-term contract could be hammered out, I would make a deal that would land my team a player of Scott Niedermayer's caliber. If I am the Vancouver GM, I will not make the deal for what may be a one year rental (though I am fairly sure Niedermayer wants to play close to his Cranbrook, B.C. home.)

Vancouver could waite and a new CBA can bring a salary cap to the NHL. Niedermayer might then sign with Calgary or Edmonton.

The names and skills mean a whole lot less than the devolpment. If I was a Ranger fan, that's what I would be worried about... because NY hasn't done it effectively for a while. And when they have, the players have been traded pretty quick. That should change and I expect it to... but don't be surprised if the same cycle starts again.

That may have been true in the past, but more recently things have started to change a bit. We stay away from players form the juniors and draft euros and US college kids which allows them to develop a bit more before they fall under the radar of our crappy management. Out of sight, out of mind. Additionally, the Wolfpack this season made signifigant strides in shaping players to be part of a team and a system. This was evident in both the wolfpacks trip to the Conf. Finals and the success/promise many of the call-ups showed the last month of the NHL season after the Rangers team had been purged.

The problem isnt the whole system, just the top rungs.

yes... the old arguments are being rehashed...

but what no one has yet answered for me is that would you guys as Devils fans, make a trade like that if the tables are turned??

you have to also consider reality - the possibility of a lockout... you can't ignore that factor right now as it effects any and every transaction (whether trades, signings, extensions etc) that happens in the NHL.

so would you deal a top young dman for an older better, even elite, one, knowing that there is a chance for a lockout, and you could be dealing for a guy that is hitting UFA status, not RFA status, when the league resumes?

for this reason, I don't think that any team is going to deal for Niedermayer right now.... the risk is way too big, and especially for Vancouver, the reward (getting him 1 season earlier at the cost of Ohlund) is just not worth it.I'd make the deal in a heartbeat with certain conditions:

1) Niedermayer must sign a 3-5 year deal either before the trade or during the trade. I don't mind giving up talent to get talent as long as I know the talent I'm getting is for more than 1 year.

2) The new CBA (with potential salary cap) comes with grandfather clauses for players who were signed before it goes into effect. This way, a player like Niedermayer who will probably sign for around $7 million per would not be a significant hit to the team that either signed him or traded for him.

3) Niedermayer must sign the contract BEFORE the lockout. If he hasn't signed, and there is a potential season-long lockout, I wouldn't make the trade.

You have to look at it as a business. As a GM, you can't think too much about the future at the risk of the present. Vancouver has some great youth, but they also have some older talent who could be going the way of UFA in a year as well. Always make a trade if it in some way benefits the team. If a trade is offered, and Vancouver scoffs, that might be their only chance at the guy. Remember, this is all based on speculation that Niedermayer wants to be closer to his family. If the right $$ are offered, he can play another 4-5 years in Jersey and retire in Vancouver. If you have a chance to get a guy, you get him. End of story.

I'd make the deal in a heartbeat with certain conditions:

1) Niedermayer must sign a 3-5 year deal either before the trade or during the trade. I don't mind giving up talent to get talent as long as I know the talent I'm getting is for more than 1 year.

2) The new CBA (with potential salary cap) comes with grandfather clauses for players who were signed before it goes into effect. This way, a player like Niedermayer who will probably sign for around $7 million per would not be a significant hit to the team that either signed him or traded for him.

3) Niedermayer must sign the contract BEFORE the lockout. If he hasn't signed, and there is a potential season-long lockout, I wouldn't make the trade.

You have to look at it as a business. As a GM, you can't think too much about the future at the risk of the present. Vancouver has some great youth, but they also have some older talent who could be going the way of UFA in a year as well. Always make a trade if it in some way benefits the team. If a trade is offered, and Vancouver scoffs, that might be their only chance at the guy. Remember, this is all based on speculation that Niedermayer wants to be closer to his family. If the right $$ are offered, he can play another 4-5 years in Jersey and retire in Vancouver. If you have a chance to get a guy, you get him. End of story.

okay... I'll bite on this one...

please explain to be how #2 (new CBA comes in...) happens as well as #3 (a lockout)...

there will either be a CBA in place, hence we know what happens in reference to the points in #2, or there will be lockout... there will not be a new CBA coming in where we know the rules, then a lockout happens.

also, with reference to your last part... I am looking at this as a business - that's why I don't make the trade... you consider the business part when you weigh out the risks with the lockout and CBA... we also don't have any significant UFAs hitting that status in a year's time (only May)... Naslund has 1 yr left on his deal, and then a team option - so he's not in that category either... all our other players are either under long term deals (Bertuzzi, Jovo, Linden), are RFAs this year where the team is working on longer deals (Morrison, Ohlund) or are way too young to hit UFA status even if the age was reduced in a new CBA (Sedins, Cooke, Sopes)... so really we aren't looking at losing major pieces if we wait another year.

also, I'm kinda confused by one thing... it seems convenient to point out by most fans that Vancouver never has a chance at the Cup with Cloutier in net... Cloutier will be in net next season... so does adding Niedermayer change that?

Bottom line - Nieds is a great player... will no doubt make our lineup better... but our strengths right now are our #1 line and our defense core (Ohlund, Jovo, Salo, Malik, Sopel, Allen)... our weaknesses are our secondary scoring, and goaltending... adding Nieds makes us a better team, but it strengthens our strength without addressing our weaknesses....

knowing that, does an upgrade from Ohlund to Niedermayer, give a team that hasn't made it past the 2nd round, a better chance to win the Cup?? sure... but how much better? now is that worth it, when again, you have a chance at getting him a year later, with the same core in place?

there is a lot more to think about then simply saying "if you get a chance to get him, you get him... end of story." ... weigh in *all* the factors... realize that our weakness isn't defense and we have other holes on the team... take the lockout into consideration.

as I've said before, if we're talking Brodeur here, not Niedermayer, things are different... but with our current team in mind (which it seems no one thinks about), it still makes no sense.

If a long-term contract could be hammered out, I would make a deal that would land my team a player of Scott Niedermayer's caliber. If I am the Vancouver GM, I will not make the deal for what may be a one year rental (though I am fairly sure Niedermayer wants to play close to his Cranbrook, B.C. home.)

Vancouver could waite and a new CBA can bring a salary cap to the NHL. Niedermayer might then sign with Calgary or Edmonton.

so lets say we're talking about Pronger here.... assume he's from New Jersey.

let's say he's said on record that he's considered going home and finishing his career closer to his family... he's mentioned New Jersey specifically.

he's a RFA right now... he would hit UFA status in 1 year (again, we're making assumptions based on the same situation Niedermayer is in).

you know that Pronger wants to come to Jersey, and you stand a very good chance (not definite, but very good) of signing him as a UFA in a year.

now consider that there is a lockout that might be coming... most people are actually betting on it, from both sides.

do you trade White for Pronger this year, knowing you could sign him to a long term deal in 1 yr time, and that a lockout could be coming?

it gives you a better chance at the Cup (which is different in Vancouver too, since we have Cloutier, not Brodeur), but the chances are that the year gets locked out... you still have him on a long term deal though, so there's always next year.

so do you do that trade? knowing that there is a good chance that Pronger signs with you in 1 yrs time, with it being a strong possibility that's the next hockey season, and keep White in the process?

and again we're looking at White and Pronger here... Pronger is younger than Nieds and could be the better dman for more years... White is younger than Ohlund, but Ohlund is the better dman right now.

guarentee me no lockout year, and I consider it more..... make it apparent that Nieds has other choice he'd look at before Vancouver, and again I'm more interested.

but you can't guarentee any of this.... all you can say is that Nieds signs a long term deal before the trade... what good is that if there is a lockout - the deal then means absolutely *nothing* since we could just as easily sign him to a deal a year later after the lockout.

so lets say we're talking about Pronger here.... assume he's from New Jersey.

let's say he's said on record that he's considered going home and finishing his career closer to his family... he's mentioned New Jersey specifically.

he's a RFA right now... he would hit UFA status in 1 year (again, we're making assumptions based on the same situation Niedermayer is in).

you know that Pronger wants to come to Jersey, and you stand a very good chance (not definite, but very good) of signing him as a UFA in a year.

now consider that there is a lockout that might be coming... most people are actually betting on it, from both sides.

do you trade White for Pronger this year, knowing you could sign him to a long term deal in 1 yr time, and that a lockout could be coming?

it gives you a better chance at the Cup (which is different in Vancouver too, since we have Cloutier, not Brodeur), but the chances are that the year gets locked out... you still have him on a long term deal though, so there's always next year.

so do you do that trade? knowing that there is a good chance that Pronger signs with you in 1 yrs time, with it being a strong possibility that's the next hockey season, and keep White in the process?

and again we're looking at White and Pronger here... Pronger is younger than Nieds and could be the better dman for more years... White is younger than Ohlund, but Ohlund is the better dman right now.

guarentee me no lockout year, and I consider it more..... make it apparent that Nieds has other choice he'd look at before Vancouver, and again I'm more interested.

but you can't guarentee any of this.... all you can say is that Nieds signs a long term deal before the trade... what good is that if there is a lockout - the deal then means absolutely *nothing* since we could just as easily sign him to a deal a year later after the lockout.

In a skinny minute.
Pronger is better than White. Period. And if we think we can sign him in a season, then we can probably sign him now, right?

I would do that. Easily. It's really not even a question. If Pronger has said that he would like to come closer to home (NJ for the purposes of this experiment) and would be willing to sign a long term contract, and we're confident that we can get one hammered out, then yes. I would do that.

For me, that's not even a question worth asking. Easy. Yes.

Pronger - Niedermayer
Stevens - Rafalski
Hale - Martin

:yo:

In a skinny minute.
Pronger is better than White. Period. And if we think we can sign him in a season, then we can probably sign him now, right?

I would do that. Easily. It's really not even a question. If Pronger has said that he would like to come closer to home (NJ for the purposes of this experiment) and would be willing to sign a long term contract, and we're confident that we can get one hammered out, then yes. I would do that.

For me, that's not even a question worth asking. Easy. Yes.

Pronger - Niedermayer
Stevens - Rafalski
Hale - Martin

:yo:

well I couldn't disagree more from our POV.

Ohlund-Sopel
Malik-Jovo
Allen-Salo

vs.

Niederayer-Sopel
Malik-Jovo
Allen-Salo

upgrade yes... but not even close to enough to get us a Cup, without other changes... so why am I moving a 27 yr old dman, who's just getting better when it gets me no closer to the Cup.

you have Brodeur in net... we have Cloutier... that's a bigger area of concern for us now... no way I deal Ohlund for an upgrade on defense, to give us a better shot for 1 year (under the assumption that there is no lockout).

it's just bad asset management IMO... you don't trade your best dman to get an upgrade at a position you don't need an upgrade in, knowing that the season could get locked out, and you gain nothing!

besides, Nonis has already said that he expects Ohlund to retire a Canuck - that's how valuable he is to us... you don't play with that in a lockout year, when you simply don't have to.

okay... I'll bite on this one...

please explain to be how #2 (new CBA comes in...) happens as well as #3 (a lockout)...

there will either be a CBA in place, hence we know what happens in reference to the points in #2, or there will be lockout... there will not be a new CBA coming in where we know the rules, then a lockout happens.

There has to be a new CBA before the next season can begin. I don't believe it will occur without the lockout happening first. This trade is contingent on a short-lived lockout. If the lockout is any longer than two or three months, I wouldn't make the trade if I were Vancouver either . . . unless Nieds signs an extended contract based on being traded.

Again, if Nieds signs an extended contract with the Devils, the whole thing is up in smoke anyway. He might sign one of those trade-based contracts where he only signs an extended deal with the team he gets traded to. That is a distinct possibility if the lockout is shortlived, because if Vancouver is making a strong run (and NJ is mired in the pack), they might take a chance and make the deal.

I guess I'm saying that you have to make the deal if there is a chance you can make your team better. Again, if there is no hockey at all next season, I wouldn't make the trade either. The fact is, if there is a partial season, there is a SC Finals. You definitely make the trade then. That was my point. Sorry about the confussion.

I think that you and I think differently about this (and don't take this as an insult, please) because the Canucks have been building towards a cup but haven't won one yet, where the Devils have.

Maybe it is bad asset management. But Niedermayer to Vancouver or Pronger to New Jersey make either of us instant contenders and even favorites to go to the finals. Add to that a good chance that both of us have to resign the respective players following (or before) the season...

Being a Devils fan, I've learned that sometimes you have to make bad decisions in terms of assets to get the job done. Morrison and Pederson for Mogilny wasn't great asset management, though we had 87 regular season games insteaed of just 82. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet for a shot at the win.

I think that you and I think differently about this (and don't take this as an insult, please) because the Canucks have been building towards a cup but haven't won one yet, where the Devils have.

Maybe it is bad asset management. But Niedermayer to Vancouver or Pronger to New Jersey make either of us instant contenders and even favorites to go to the finals. Add to that a good chance that both of us have to resign the respective players following (or before) the season...

Being a Devils fan, I've learned that sometimes you have to make bad decisions in terms of assets to get the job done. Morrison and Pederson for Mogilny wasn't great asset management, though we had 87 regular season games insteaed of just 82. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet for a shot at the win.

yes, we do look at things differently that no doubt comes from following our favorite teams.

but looking at it from a canuck POV, you have to realize that we don't have Brodeur in net, instead Cloutier - not once have any of you considered this... if you still think that makes us an instant contender, then that's where the disagreement is.

you guys acquired Mogilny as a rental (somewhat) and won a Cup with him, but that was behind a team with Brodeur, Stevens, Nieds, etc... we acquired Mogilny after going on a Cup run to the finals, and barely made the playoffs, only to lose in the 2nd round...

the two teams here are completely different... if you think that acquiring Niedermayer in this situation would be a good move for us, because it would be a good move for the Devils, then your logic is completely faulty IMO and we will never agree....

look at it not from what makes the Devils contenders, but the Canucks... consider our team, consider out goaltending and consider our weaknesses ... we aren't a Niedermayer away from making it to the finals... infact you could even argue that replacing Ohlund with Niedermayer will hurt our team more than help us, when you consider Ohlund's role on our team - something that no other dman we have plays, and something that Niedermayer doesn't replace (he's not going to be used as a #1 shutdown dman, and if he is, then really makes no sense for us to change Ohlund for Nieds)... he brings us more offense, makes us a more dynamic team from the backend... but without Ohlund, who plays the #1 shutdown role?? Malik??? Sopel??

as a Devils fan you should realize this... great teams aren't built with great players, but players that fill all the roles needed to form a great team... with Niedermayer and without Ohlund we get a quality offensive dman that's damn good in his own zone... but we don't need more offense from our blueline (Jovo, Salo, Sopel - one of the top offensive bluelines over the last 3 years)... and using Nieds out there as the main shadow/shutdown guy is mis-using him.

what we need to be a better team overall is consistent goaltending... reliable secondary scoring, and more of a shutdown presense in our own zone... Niedermayer doesn't help us here... he's a great player, but the cost to get him, vs the needs we have don't fit.

I dunno... maybe you just won't follow this logic... but I'm looking at our team and our biggest holes and don't see the need to flop Ohlund for Niedermayer when you consider all that, and the risks of a lockout....

I would rather just wait a year... there is a good chance for a lockout, and if it happens, then we're not even waiting, it's simply the next hockey season... even without a lockout, Nieds plays a year in Jersey, and then we can negotiate with him for nothing.

worst case scenario for the canucks - there is no lockout, and Nieds signs a long term deal and then gets traded to another team... (I don't see this happeneing, as Nieds isn't going to sign longterm to be dealt)... but even under those circumstances, we lost a chance to flip Ohlund for Niedermayer ... when you have the holes we have in goal and upfront, that's not a big enough loss for me to really worry about, and jump the gun to trade for him a year earlier.

I already apologized. Twice. :(

Just buggin' anyways...

Elias-Gomez-Gionta
Friesen/Kozloz-Parise-Langs
Pandolfo-Madden-Brylin
Rasmussen-Hrdina-Marshall/Stevenson/Pihlman/Suglobov

Pronger-Rafalski
Stevens-Martin
Hale-White

Thats Stanley Cup calibur. Not that I think we'll get Pronger. Change it to Stevens-Rafalski, Niedermayer-White/Hale, Martin-Hale/White and thats just as good. Or it could be Jovo-White, Stevens-Rafalski, Martin-Hale. Or Stevens-Rafalski, Ohlund-White, Martin-Hale. All work for me :)

I'm willing to bet (assuming the Canucks and the players cooperate) that Lou goes with the cheapet solution.