EC Day #2: Switzerland v Croatia / France v England (GDT)

Good morning once again

Well, the games have started and the first surprise is in after Portugal lost on the opening match against the Greeks.
Let's all hope though that the standard of football will still improve. Today, we are going to have the first big shock of the tournament: France v England, that will be a very heavily contested match, not sure if it will mount to good football.


France v England

GROUP B
Venue: Estadio Da Luz, Lisbon
Date/time: Sun, 13 June, 2045 CET
Referee: Markus Merk (Germany)
Team news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/euro_2004/3787491.stm


Switzerland v Croatia

GROUP B
Venue: Dr Magalhaes Pessoa stadium, Leiria
Date/time: Sun, 13 June, 1800 CET
Referee: Lucillo Batista (Portugal)
Team news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/euro_2004/3787487.stm


Since we still don't have an official scorekeeper of our guess the score game and I really don't have the time to do it, I suggest everyone keeps their prediction of day one and posts them again, 'calculating' his own scores, along with their new predictions. I will check for cheaters though so beware :p:
And new participants can still enter of course.


Quick rules update:
3 points for the correct result (win - draw)
3 bonus points for the correct score
3 bonus points for naming a goalscorer (you can only name one)


******** Predictions ************

Day 1:
Portugal v Greece: 2-0 (Figo)
Spain v Russia: 2-1 (Raul Gonzalez Blanco)
That's a stellar total of three points for me!


Day 2:
Switzerland v Croatia: 2-1 (Frei)
France v England: 1-1 (Owen)


Enjoy the games and keep it clean!

Day 1

Portugal 2 : 1 Greece (C. Ronaldo)
Spain 2 : 0 Russia (F. Morientes)
That's a total of 6 points (one for naming Ronaldo, one for predicting a Spanish win)

Day 2

France 2 : 1 England (T. Henry)
Switzerland 1 : 0 Croatia (A. Frei)

=====================================

Day 1..

Spain 1 - 0 Russia (Raul) - 6 points
Portugal 2- 0 Greece (Ronaldo) - 3 points.

So far I have a total of: 9 points

=====================================

Day 2..

France 1 - 0 England (Henry)
Switserland 1 - 2 Croatia (Prso)

=====================================

Day 1

Portugal - Greece : 3-0 (Rui Costa)

Spain - Russia : 3-1 (Raul)

Point Total so far : 3

Day 2

Switzerland - Croatia: 0-1 (Prso)

France - England: 1-2 (Owen)

3 points for me for the spanish win.

Switzerland 1-1 Croatia (Frei)
France 1-0 England (Trezeguet)

the first surprise is in after Portugal lost on the opening match against the Russians.

hmmm ;)

No one higher than 9 points yet? What kind of so called football experts are you guys? I am running away with this one..

:snide:

Btw, say the Dutch play against Latvia. You have the Dutch winning 2-0 in this very same HF pool, do you root for the Dutch because of your prediction or are you still rooting for the underdog, regardless of what you predicted?

And the underdog is Latvia, not Holland.. ;)

hmmm ;)

Whoops, fixed it!


No one higher than 9 points yet? What kind of so called football experts are you guys? I am running away with this one..

:snide:



Bah, the Tournament's still long ;)

Seriously, for some reason I suck at predicting football games, I was near the bottom in out last pool and I might very well be again near the bottom this time. And you can always ask Rangers about my football prediction-abilities :blush:

Anyway, I'll also keep score of Strizzi's points, he put them in the earlier thread as he isn't around these days:

Day 1
Portugal 3 - Greece 1 (Pauleta)
Spain 2 - Russia 1 (Morientes)

3 Points

Day 2
Switzerland 2 - Croatia 1 (Frei) [/wishful thinking]
France 2 - England 0 (Henry)

Day 1

Portugal 2:1 Greece (Pauleta)
Spain 3:1 Russia (Raul)

3 dismal points for me for predicting a spanish win.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Day 2

Swiss - Croatia 2-1 (Hakan Yakin)
France - England 3-1 (Henry) :handclap: :handclap:

DAY 1

Portugal 2 - 0 Greece (Pauleta)
Spain 2 - 0 Russia (Morientes)

So, that's 3 points for me.

DAY 2

Switzerland 1 - 1 Croatia (Prso)
France 1 - 0 England (Henry)

As pretty much everyone else, I got a stellar 3 points yesterday :p:

Today:

France- England 3-1 (Henry)
Croatia-Switzerland 2-1 (Prso)

Ok I have zero points after the first day.
I don't plan to have many more after today:

Croatia-Switzerland: 2-1 (Prso)
France-England: 3-0 (Trezeguet)- I have decided to be a blind fan when France play!

DAY ONE
Spain 1 - 0 Russia (Vicente) 3+3 points
Portugal 3 - 1 Greece (Rui Costa) 0 points

DAY TWO
Croatia vs. Switzerland 1-1 (Frei)
France vs. England 1-1 (Owen)

total points: 6 points

=====================================
Spain 2 - 0 Russia (Raul) - 3 points
Portugal 2- 0 Greece (Nuno Gomes) - 0 points

3 points
=====================================

France 1 - 1 England (Scholes)
Switserland 0 - 1 Croatia (Pršo)

=====================================

=====================================
Spain 3 - 0 Russia (Raul) - 3 points
Portugal 4- 0 Greece (Figo) - 0 points

3 points
=====================================

France 2 - 0 England (Trezeguet)
Sveits 0 - 1 Croatia (Pršo)

=====================================

DAY 1
Portugal 4 - Greece 1 (Pauleta)
Spain 3 - Russia 0 (Raul)

DAY 2
Switzerland 1 - Croatia 3 (Prso - he's the only player i know :D)
England 1 - France 4 (Henry)

Day 2:

France 0 - 0 England (Beckham)
Switzerland 0 - 1 Croatia (Pršo)

Day 2:
Switzerland v Croatia: 1-1 (Frei)
France v England: 2-0 (T. Henry)

Henry has never scored on a pass by Zinedine Zidane, I hope this change this afternoon. :D

Bloody hell. Second half about to kickoff, and the whole ****ing network goes down. :banghead:

Besides Vogel getting his 2nd yellow card, you haven't missed a beat. Scrappy game, but very boring, few to no chances.

The referee is the best portuguese in this tournament so far!

More Power to Stiel!!
Seems like he is back to his Bundesliga form :joker:

OMG thank god Stiel saved that shot, he is great guy he would not have deserved the mockery!

Mornar is a dirty sob!

Mornar is a dirty sob!
Quite some Croatians play dirty today. And Prso is a damn diver. He would have deserved a 2nd yellow card as much as Vogel did. But at least the Swiss are better with 10 men than Croatia with 11 so far...

The referee is the best portuguese in this tournament so far!

Prso should have been gone by now, that red card for Vogell was absolutely ridiculous as well (there was no contact on the first yellow at all)

But at least he's penalised most of the dives by Croatia, that's something we should give him.


Mornar is a dirty sob!

Yeah he's always been that kind of player, the kind of guy you want to be playing with, not against. But even tough he plays dirty as hell, he's a diver too...

Scoreless tie...
It will be very hard for both teams to advance now.

Extremely boring game.. Glad it's over..

This is one of the most putrid games i've seen at international level. As bad as anything Canada could conjure up. Croatia's wingers gave me a good laugh, Mornar is a CF put on the wing- awful. Olic was an embarrassment down the left. Not one cross, not one pass , not one shot. Rapaic came in but only got a couple of crosses. Sokota was not within 10 feet of goal on his shots. Lets not talk about the Swiss attack. If England and France do not advance it will be far more shocking than Portugal's loss to Greece. Bring on France and England!!

Prso should have been gone by now, that red card for Vogell was absolutely ridiculous as well (there was no contact on the first yellow at all)
Thank you. That's exactly how I feel.

Some info on Vogel's 2nd yellow card: He thought that the whistle was against Croatia (which could have been I think), and rapidly executed the free kick he thought he'd gotten. One could also clearly see that he passed the ball to Frei, and didn't kick it away. Very though to get such a red card...

At least we got a point though we had to play with 10 men for almost a half of the game.

At least you have a point Strizzi, they can't take that away from you. Now you just have to win from either France or England and the quarterfinals are waiting.

Full credit to the Swiss for their battle level. They worked hard at the back and in midfield. They did little with the ball- If Yakin had layed off to Frei they may have won- the ball found its way to Huggel and he got a decent shot away. The Swiss will really have to be sharp to take points from France and England.

GOOOOOOOOAAAAAAALLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LAMPARD!!!!!!!

Great game so far. Glad England is winning.

Go FRANCE!!!

Excellent first half, by far the best game so far at these championships!

Well after one half, one thing is for certain : England will defend with 9 men, and France will have trouble scoring.
I've been saying for a while that I'm not impressed by the way France plays offensively.
And now they're down by one, they'd better find the key.

France are such a joy to watch, Henry and Zidane are awesome, they are the better team IMO but they need to score soon!

LMAO:lol

Beckham YOU SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!

Barthez is giving the French a chance to steal a point.

Barthez is giving the French a chance to steal a point.

Or Beckham is..

Awfuly aimed penalty..

BTW: King is good.. Saw him play a couple times before, but this time he really stands out. He's gonna be a very reliable defender for years to come. Don't like Rooney, but I understand why he's so loved among the English fans. And the day that Viera stops whining like a little girl is the day I merry Jessica Simpson..

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLL !!!


Zidane, you balding genius.

LMAO:lol

Beckham YOU SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!

Now you suck even more. LMAO

BTW it's 1-1 now.

James sucks. He should have had that side covered. And now he's to blame for a penalty against.. Horrible.

OMG 2:1 :eek:

FRANCE WINS!!!


Zidane with two goals, both in extra time!!

LMAO:lol

Beckham YOU SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!

LMAO Becks! That's how you do it.

Amazing!!!!

Zidane!!!!!

Bleh. I f-ing hate france. England plays perfect defense and france plays like *****s for 90 minutes and what the hell happens?

Det var bara röta, det var bara röta!

So who's to blame??

Beckham? Yes
Gerrard? Yes
James? Yes


Nice ending to a poor game, England deserved nothing to begin with but I don't think it was a positive sign for France that they couldn't break England down at all. They created very few chances...
I specifically thought the Flanks of France were underused, wich limits Trézéguet's effectiveness.

Steven Gerrard, one of the finest passers in the game.

That must be one of the most embarassing collapses in sports history.

That must be one of the most embarassing collapses in sports history.

Up there with United beating Munchen in extra time (CL Finale), for sure..

France are such a joy to watch, Henry and Zidane are awesome.

Huh, you hit the bottle early tonight GG ? :)

Great freekick, yes.

Steven Gerrard, one of the finest passers in the game.

Great assist, gotta hand it to him :handclap:

He had a half decent game though, one of the few England midfielders who provided more than one good pass (yes, I'm looking at you David Beckham ;))

I thought King also was pretty impressive, I'll retract my earlier statements for the time being.

But like I said, Beckham should've scored, James should've had that free kick (he placed himself in the wrong corner!!!!) and Gerrard, well...

Haha, unbelievable, who would have thought, 2 goals in extra time by Zidane and wham they win! Talk about winds changing directions suddenly, I thought England had it in the bag :lol: England must be kicking themselves :banghead: Beckham was absolutely robbed, what a great save by Barthez and it would have been the break England needed. It gave a full blast of wind to the French sails that allowed them to come back. :joker:

Still rootin' for Spain!

Great game, great last minutes!

I'am relly happy for France, but I was happier when ManU scored against Munich, what a great day it was for most German football fans back then.

Great assist, gotta hand it to him :handclap:

;)

but not only that assist, he has made at least 5-6 terrible passes, which weren't too difficult. His work ethic tonight was good though.

BTW how was Beckham 'robbed' on the penalty, it was poorly placed, on half hight only slightly left of center - ideal for keepers to save if they guess the right corner :dunno:

What an end!

Zidane 2, England 1.

Oh my, that was unbelievable! Totally unbelievable! I don't believe it happened! :amazed:

BTW how was Beckham 'robbed' on the penalty, it was poorly placed, on half hight only slightly left of center - ideal for keepers to save if they guess the right corner :dunno:
Nah that's just bad faith.
Barthez made a great stop.
It was not "lightly" left of center. It was a good kick and he probably wanted to get it higher. But it was just a great save by Barthez who's proving most of you wrong tonight.

France was stiffled by England's D for the whole game, but ZZ made his magic speak again.
If he has another great euro, he'll climb up a few more ladders on the all time great list.

What a game. :eek:

BTW how was Beckham 'robbed' on the penalty, it was poorly placed, on half hight only slightly left of center - ideal for keepers to save if they guess the right corner :dunno:

Totally agree. I was going to write that in a long anti-french rant but now I don't have to! (thanks BF ;) )

Up there with United beating Munchen in extra time (CL Finale), for sure..
Saw that one too....what a stunning turn of events today.

btw....I would have no problem seeing Rooney suiting up for the Bruins. Best power forward they'd have had since Neely left. :p:

It was a good kick and he probably wanted to get it higher. But it was just a great save by Barthez who's proving most of you wrong tonight.


C'mon that penalty was horrible..you can't take them any worse, half high/halfway the goal. Good save by Barthez, you can't blame him that Beckham failed.

BTW how was Beckham 'robbed' on the penalty, it was poorly placed, on half hight only slightly left of center - ideal for keepers to save if they guess the right corner :dunno:

Why are you copying every word I say! ;)

So who's to blame??

Beckham? Yes
James? YesAnd now he's [James] to blame for a penalty against
Beckham is to blame for that one

Beckham should've scoredAwfuly aimed penalty

I thought King also was pretty impressiveBTW: King is good.. Saw him play a couple times before, but this time he really stands out. He's gonna be a very reliable defender for years to come.

James should've had that free kick (he placed himself in the wrong corner!!!!)James sucks. He should have had that side covered.

Oh well, GMTA eh? ;)

Up there with United beating Munchen in extra time (CL Finale), for sure..

Not to mention Team Finland at last years, and maybe this years as well, hockey World's. :banghead:

"but England's gonna throw it away, gonna blow it away..."

C'mon that penalty was horrible..you can't take them any worse, half high/halfway the goal. Good save by Barthez, you can't blame him that Beckham failed.

:shakehead :banghead:
You can't acknowledge you're wrong, huh? ;)

It was near the post, and not halfway the goal at all.
Check the replay.
It was a great save, period.

C'mon that penalty was horrible..you can't take them any worse, half high/halfway the goal. Good save by Barthez, you can't blame him that Beckham failed.

Oh c'mon, had Barthez guessed the other way, everyone'd be prasing the penalty.

:shakehead :banghead:
You can't acknowledge you're wrong, huh? ;)

It was near the post, and not halfway the goal at all.
Check the replay.
It was a great save, period.
Just ask Van Der Sar if it wasn't a great save... ;)

And to those who said Beckham is responsible for England's defeat, I haven't watched the same game it seems.
He was very good all game long and was directly responsible for the first goal (straight assist).

:shakehead :banghead:
You can't acknowledge you're wrong, huh? ;)

It was near the post, and not halfway the goal at all.
Check the replay.
It was a great save, period.

Perhaps you should check the replay again. Why can't I acknowledge I'm wrong, I don't understand ? I said the penalty was bad and Barthez made a good save, nothing wrong with that.

Barthez played with Beckham at Man Utd, he trained with him, he knows where he is going to put the ball in penalties.

The fact that Silvestre wasn't sent off on the play was a lucky break and if I am happy by the crazy win, I am disappointed by the lack of creativity of France in the last 30 meters. Pouring crosses during all the second half was just perfect for the english defense as the defenders face this type of play all year long in the premiership.
It is only the first game but it was a serious warning to France. Zidane's free kick was marvelous.

:shakehead :banghead:
You can't acknowledge you're wrong, huh? ;)

It was near the post, and not halfway the goal at all.
Check the replay.
It was a great save, period.

What kind of virtual post did you vision? Beckham shot it in the middle of the left corner, at the height which is the most favorable one for a goalie to stop. Not only that, but you could've seen where he was going to aim it from miles away..

Everyone ackowledges this, the only one that see's it through a pair of blue and red collored glasses is you, my dear friend.

Barthez played with Beckham, he trained with him, he knows where he is going to put the ball in penalties.
Good observation.
Or you could also say Beckham knows where Barthez expects the ball... you can have it both ways.

Oh c'mon, had Barthez guessed the other way, everyone'd be prasing the penalty.

Should I rank this in the category cliché's, Jussi ?

Not to mention Team Finland at last years, and maybe this years as well, hockey World's. :banghead:

"but England's gonna throw it away, gonna blow it away..."

Eh hmm.. Sweden - Canada finals, twice in a row. ;)

:shakehead :banghead:
You can't acknowledge you're wrong, huh? ;)

It was near the post, and not halfway the goal at all.
Check the replay.
It was a great save, period.

It was a very good save, no one's denying that. But the penalty was poorly placed and not 'near the post'. Barthez was very good today. I thought the entire defensive part of the French team looked very solid (only one mistake in giving too much room to Rooney for that rush)

Zidane proved he is a class player. But I was dissapointed in Pires, he didn't create a whole lot and like I said earlier, France failed to use the flanks properly, wich is slightly worrying.



And M=G I didn't read the thread before posting, sorry for repeating you :)

What kind of virtual post did you vision? Beckham shot it in the middle of the left corner, at the height which is the most favorable one for a goalie to stop. Not only that, but you could've seen where he was going to aim it from miles away..

Everyone ackowledges this, the only one that see's it through a pair of blue and red collored glasses is you, my dear friend.
Oh I can't believe the bad faith some of you are showing.
You've been bashing Barthez for months, and I've defended him everytime.
Tonight he shows you that he's a world class goalie by stopping a decisive penalty, something the goalie you praise could never do, and you still come up with sorry excuses and say I'm the one biased.

Be men and say Barthez had a great game and made a great save.
Maybe you are still not convinced he's one of the best goalies, but you can at least agree he made a decisive save that turned around the game. Just like I would agree if he had made a gaffe that resulted in a France loss.:shakehead

Oh well, what a turn of events :handclap:

The freekick:
James speculated where Zidane would shoot and unfortunately he guessed wrong. This should not happen at a world cup, I totally blame James for that. Better play it safe instead of going for the spectacular save.

The Penalty shot:
On German TV Beckenbauer mentioned that because Beckham and Barthez were both with ManU for a few years that he should have never been the one that took the shot as Barthez knows him better than most of the other players on England's team. I think he has a point as a goal at that time would have been a back-breaker for France!

But I was dissapointed in Pires, he didn't create a whole lot and like I said earlier, France failed to use the flanks properly, wich is slightly worrying.

I disagree.. Pires was very offensively challenged in the first half.. poor 2nd half though, I'll give you that.

I disagree.. Pires was very offensively challenged in the first half.. poor 2nd half though, I'll give you that.

Yeah you're right maybe he had a few good moves in the first half.

I think he was responsible for the cross on Trézéguet's only heading chance too, not sure though if it was him or Gallas

Barthez was very good today.

OK, one down, three to go... :D

Zhidane's penalty was to almost the exact same place as Beckham's penalty. Neither penalty was well struck, IMHO, as both were mid height (the biggest no-no for a penalty). Get that ball on the ground or top corner, NOT waist high, which BOTH players did. The only difference between the two is that the keeper guessed right on the first kick and wrong on the second....

Barthez played with Beckham at Man Utd, he trained with him, he knows where he is going to put the ball in penalties.

Ok, beat me to it :)

I was disapointed in the whole offensive unit I'll say.
But I've been for a while.
This team has the best collection of football players in Europe, and the offensive players are just a world above the rest (Henry, Trezeguet, Zidane, Pires). Yet they were once again troubled by a team that gives them no space.
I think it is the key if you want to win against France : defend with 10 players everytime.

Gerrard better get more bodyguards if England is out in this group phase.

Zhidane's penalty was to almost the exact same place as Beckham's penalty. Neither penalty was well struck, IMHO, as both were mid height (the biggest no-no for a penalty). Get that ball on the ground or top corner, NOT waist high, which BOTH players did. The only difference between the two is that the keeper guessed right on the first kick and wrong on the second....
Actually I think Zidane's penalty was on the ground or at a very low level.
As for Beckham, he obviously wanted to shoot higher.
I maintain his kick was nearer the post than the center.

I maintain his kick was nearer the post than the center.

Not by much in that case.

For the very few minds that doubt Zidane is one of the greatest ever, here's a jaw dropping stat.
Zidane has played in 91 games with France.
He's lost 6 games.:eek:

I was disapointed in the whole offensive unit I'll say.
But I've been for a while.
This team has the best collection of football players in Europe, and the offensive players are just a world above the rest (Henry, Trezeguet, Zidane, Pires). Yet they were once again troubled by a team that gives them no space.
I think it is the key if you want to win against France : defend with 10 players everytime.

Yeah, but that is usually where Trezeguet should come in, that's the strenght of France, they have players who prosper with space (Henry most notably) but also someone who can score 'dirty goals' when the ball is pumped in the box from the flanks. But when France only play through the center (Zidane was also guilty of that) they loose that strenght.

And now I'm off to bed.
We will be able to end the penalty debate tomorrow, the BBC has a 3D replay machine on their website so we will all be able to see it again in slomo

Yeah, but that is usually where Trezeguet should come in, that's the strenght of France, they have players who prosper with space (Henry most notably) but also someone who can score 'dirty goals' when the ball is pumped in the box from the flanks. But when France only play through the center (Zidane was also guilty of that) they loose that strenght.

And now I'm off to bed.
We will be able to end the penalty debate tomorrow, the BBC has a 3D replay machine on their website so we will all be able to see it again in slomo
Yes but Trezeguet is not in top form, and he always had three english Dmen on his back.
I'll go to bed as well, early wake up tomorrow for work.

They also didn't use the cross enough because the english Dmen were ruling in the air.

Oh I can't believe the bad faith some of you are showing.
You've been bashing Barthez for months, and I've defended him everytime.
Tonight he shows you that he's a world class goalie by stopping a decisive penalty, something the goalie you praise could never do, and you still come up with sorry excuses and say I'm the one biased.

Be men and say Barthez had a great game and made a great save.
Maybe you are still not convinced he's one of the best goalies, but you can at least agree he made a decisive save that turned around the game. Just like I would agree if he had made a gaffe that resulted in a France loss.:shakehead

If one decisive save would turn a goalie from an above-avarage goalie into a goalie of world fame, then we would have hundreds of Martin Brodeur's in soccer. He played a good game, yes, nobody is denying that.

About the penalty, that one was bad, period.
If you say otherwise then is any discussion impossible.

For the very few minds that doubt Zidane is one of the greatest ever, here's a jaw dropping stat.
Zidane has played in 91 games with France.
He's lost 6 games.:eek:

Oh. That logic is bulletproof ;)

You call Barthez an above average goalie even though he has arguably the best career ever for a goalie and that he still proving you tonight?
Barthez is a world class goalie and he's been so except for a year in ManU.

This team has the best collection of football players in Europe, and the offensive players are just a world above the rest (Henry, Trezeguet, Zidane, Pires).

Ridiculous...a world above the rest, go watch Spain's roster.


For the very few minds that doubt Zidane is one of the greatest ever, here's a jaw dropping stat.
Zidane has played in 91 games with France.
He's lost 6 games.:eek:

I'm worried you're going to say that he played a great match too.

If one decisive save would turn a goalie from an above-avarage goalie into a goalie of world fame, then we would have hundreds of Martin Brodeur's in soccer. He played a good game, yes, nobody is denying that.

About the penalty, that one was bad, period.
If you say otherwise then is any discussion impossible.
Yes I say otherwise, and the discussion is obviously impossible because you can't acknowledge you're wrong.
But that's OK, you've been way too harsh on Barthez the last few months to change your mind now.

I'm sure if he was stopping a penalty every game to the final, he'd still be an average goalie in your mind.:shakehead

You call Barthez an above average goalie even though he has arguably the best career ever for a goalie and that he still proving you tonight?
Barthez is a world class goalie and he's been so except for a year in ManU.

He's pretty good. Oli Kahn or the old Peter Schmeichel, thats a real world class goalie.

So who's to blame??

Beckham? Yes
Gerrard? Yes
James? Yes


Nice ending to a poor game, England deserved nothing to begin with but I don't think it was a positive sign for France that they couldn't break England down at all. They created very few chances...
I specifically thought the Flanks of France were underused, wich limits Trézéguet's effectiveness.

How can you blame James? Gerrard is solely to blame for his moment of defensive madness. James was beat like any other goalie would be on a similar play, and did the only thing he could, take down the man and hope he could stop the penalty or hope the ref wouldn't call it for some reason.

James also almost got the ball (Henry just barely got his foot on it). I can't imagine the goalie doing anything different than what James did on that play, he was simply put out to dry on that play.

Ridiculous...a world above the rest, go watch Spain's roster.
Henry+Trezeguet+Zidane+Pires is better than any 4 guys any team could come up with.
Sorry you can't see the obvious.
I'd take that (and I'm pretty sure anyone would) before a Morientes-Raul-Vicente-Extebarria combo.

I'm worried you're going to say that he played a great match too.
Did I say that?
In fact I was saying the contrary, saying they were playing poorly, especially since they're so talented.

If you want to be an ass, please at least try to be accurate.

James also almost got the ball (Henry just barely got his foot on it). I can't imagine the goalie doing anything different than what James did on that play, he was simply put out to dry on that play.
[Sarcasm mode ON]
He challenged with his feet.
That's unacceptable by HF's standards, especially if the goalie is named Barthez in a UEFA cup final.
[/Sarcasm mode OFF]

PS : I agree with you, he couldn't do anything differently.

So I'll ask the question:

Did France deserve to win this game?

:dunno:

Henry+Trezeguet+Zidane+Pires is better than any 4 guys any team could come up with.
Sorry you can't see the obvious.
I'd take that (and I'm pretty sure anyone would) before a Morientes-Raul-Vicente-Extebarria combo.

Wait a second, my friend, you were talking about a "world above the rest".

Spain: Raul, Vicente, Morientes, Valeron, Joaquin.

I'm sure you sleep very well in your French quilt cover tonight.

So I'll ask the question:

Did France deserve to win this game?

:dunno:

Yes.

Yes.

Definitly

Wait a second, my friend, you were talking about a "world above the rest".

Spain: Raul, Vicente, Morientes, Valeron, Joaquin.

I'm sure you sleep very well in your French quilt cover tonight.
That's 5 players, my dear friend.
IMO the 4 french offensive players are a world above the spanish 4.

Definitly
I wouldn't say that.
France clearly had the ball more, especially in the second half.
But that doesn't mean anything, just ask Portugal.
In fact France had very, very few opportunities to score, probably not more than England.
So I'd say a tie would have been fair, but at the same time I'm happy the team that tried to attack won the game.

Zhidane's penalty was to almost the exact same place as Beckham's penalty. Neither penalty was well struck, IMHO, as both were mid height (the biggest no-no for a penalty). Get that ball on the ground or top corner, NOT waist high, which BOTH players did. The only difference between the two is that the keeper guessed right on the first kick and wrong on the second....

Didn't Zidane actually *look* where the goalie was going? If I were a midfield genius I'd certainly learn to score penalties that way.

Beckham practically announced where he'd strike the ball.

That's 5 players, my dear friend.
IMO the 4 french offensive players are a world above the spanish 4.

Italy's Cassano, Del Piero, Vieri & Totti should behind the four French guys, but a little bit ahead of the Spainards.

Italy's Cassano, Del Piero, Vieri & Totti should behind the four French guys, but a little bit ahead of the Spainards.

No Tom, a world ahead of them..

What a disrespect.

Didn't Zidane actually *look* where the goalie was going? If I were a midfield genius I'd certainly learn to score penalties that way.

Beckham practically announced where he'd strike the ball.

The way Becks telegraphed it, I could of sworn he was going to do a quick fake and go the other way. I really don't understand how somebody who can shoot like he can, would come up with such a poor effort. Got to still give credit to Barthez though.

I wouldn't say that.
France clearly had the ball more, especially in the second half.
But that doesn't mean anything, just ask Portugal.
In fact France had very, very few opportunities to score, probably not more than England.
So I'd say a tie would have been fair, but at the same time I'm happy the team that tried to attack won the game.

Yeah, this is also what I'm thinking. Possession means nothing unless you can do something with the ball. England was pretty solid defensively aside from a few chances given up in the first half until that Gerrard miscue. So IMO France did not "definitely" deserve to win the game.

Perhaps an easier question to answer is:
Did England deserve to lose that game?

In the context of a major international competition, you cannot afford to lose concentration like Gerrard did and give up that chance to score, especially in extra time in a tie game. That, and the failed penalty by Beckham. Considering the circumstances, I'd say England did deserve to lose that game. It hurts, but they can't blame anyone but themselves.

My thoughts on this game:

- A tie would have been appropriate. Neither the 1-0 from almost the end of the game, nor the end result.

- The 4 greatest scoring opportunities were 4 stills. Makes up for a pretty boring game, though especially England played a tactically great match, and France showed that is has great ball control.

- I agree with BF that France should use the flanks more. That's the biggest problem with their 4-2-2-2. In such a system, you need wing backs who can rush and play crosses. Neither Lizarazu nor Gallas fit that mold. It was especially obvious on the left side that Zidane needs an offensive left back. He even had to tell Lizarazu to join the attack more, but that's not Lizarazu's style of play. One other option would be putting Henry more often onto the left wing, which happened a couple of times in the 2nd half.

- France also should have shot more and more precisely from half distance. That's what you have to do against such a massed defense. Esp. against auch a goalie.

- I completely don't understand why Beckham shot that penalty. Barthez was the goalie of his club for a long time, and he knows him inside out! That was bad judgement from the English.

- Zidane's penalty was a bit more accurate that Beckham's IMO. But the main problem was my point above.

- Rooney was the better of England's two forwards, I was actually impressed by that kid. Owen was alomst invisible.

- I have to revise my comments about the English defense. They were much better than I thought.

That's enough for the moment...

WTF!!
WHAT A GAME!!!

Zizou is our savior, as usual! :handclap: :handclap:
It was a tough match for both team. France tries a lot and I think they deserved to win this one. But England play well too. Beckham was great, although he failed on this penalty kick. Fabulous Fab had been exceptionnal on the shot! What a save!
it killed the Brits! :banana:

PS : Zizou, on te dressera une statue un jour!! :handclap:

No Tom, a world ahead of them..

What a disrespect.
?

Totti is the best of all of them. But as a group, I'd take the Spaniards.

EDIT: Or did I understand you wrong? Which comparison did you mean?

No Tom, a world ahead of them..

What a disrespect.
It has nothing to do with disrespect.
Italy's top 4 is pretty good.

But yes they're quite a notch under the french top 4.
The best player in the world, the best striker in the world, arguably a top 5 striker and arguably a top 5 offensive midfielder.

You seem to be pretty upset about the whole Barthez incident, huh?
You try to whine about semantics and you forget the whole point of the discussion.
1/ You can't agree Barthez is a good goalie
2/ You try to get after me for details such as using the expression " a world above the rest". If I had used "head and shoulders above the rest" or "a clear notch above the rest", you would have been happier?
There you go, let me rephrase it then...

IMO the 4 offensive french players are a clear notch above what any team can offer in this department..

IMO the 4 offensive french players are a clear notch above what any team can offer in this department..
The problem is that the way they play together right now, they don't complement each other well enough (see BF's and my comments regarding the play over the wings).

No Tom, a world ahead of them..

What a disrespect.

IMO

Totti >/= Raúl
Vieri = Morientes
Cassano =/< Vicente
Del Piero > Etxebarria

--> Totti and Cassano have an awesome chemistry.

The great thing for France tonight is that there are a win away of resting all key players. This may be crucial later.

England played well, they stuck on their tactical approach and they can feel hardone by. But if Heskey useless foul cost them a point, Gerrard blunder cost them two. Harsh for the english fans but as Croatia or Switzerland don't look very good, I still thinkl England will be in the quarters.

IMO

Totti >/= Raúl
Vieri = Morientes
Cassano =/< Vicente
Del Piero > Etxebarria

--> Totti and Cassano have an awesome chemistry.

Yes, I know Tom. I wasn't refering to you. ;)

James also almost got the ball (Henry just barely got his foot on it). I can't imagine the goalie doing anything different than what James did on that play, he was simply put out to dry on that play.

My opinion is that his timing was just awful. It looked like Henry lost the control of the ball and all James needed to do was to make sure Henry can't make the pass. TV commentator here in Finland (who btw is ENGLISH born Keith Armstrong) pointed out that another error of his was to play the challenge by his feet instead of hands.

Also Zidane's first goal wasn't impossible to take, so not the best day for David James.

My thoughts on this game:

- A tie would have been appropriate. Neither the 1-0 from almost the end of the game, nor the end result.

I agree. I would have been happy to go back to the locker rrom with a draw.


- I agree with BF that France should use the flanks more. That's the biggest problem with their 4-2-2-2. In such a system, you need wing backs who can rush and play crosses. Neither Lizarazu nor Gallas fit that mold. It was especially obvious on the left side that Zidane needs an offensive left back. He even had to tell Lizarazu to join the attack more, but that's not Lizarazu's style of play. One other option would be putting Henry more often onto the left wing, which happened a couple of times in the 2nd half.

You're on one point, we didn't use enough our flanks. But for one reason : the Brits played with 8 guys behind, blocking all possibilities for Liza or Gallas to go up. And Liza is a offensive threat. His combinations with Zizou are deadly normaly. But not tonight.


- France also should have shot more and more precisely from half distance. That's what you have to do against such a massed defense. Esp. against auch a goalie.

I agree. Our midfielders always shot upon the English defense. It was a gift for Campbell. We should have play with short passes and try to shoot more often mid range.


- I completely don't understand why Beckham shot that penalty. Barthez was the goalie of his club for a long time, and he knows him inside out! That was bad judgement from the English.

Agreed again. I was surprised when I saw Becks shot it. Fab knows him very well.


- Rooney was the better of England's two forwards, I was actually impressed by that kid. Owen was alomst invisible.

Yea Rooney was good but hell, this guy is a SOB! A lot of talent but so many fouls commited. He played dirty. Owen was far too isolated to had such an impact. The English squad was litteraly cut in half. 8 guys behind, and two in front...

One of the main problem for France is that none of Vieira and Makelele can't shot on goals from 25 meters. So basically when they are at this position on the field it is never a threat and the central defenders don't have to commit to them but can stay holding the line. This was a problem in the second half.

You're on one point, we didn't use enough our flanks. But for one reason : the Brits played with 8 guys behind, blocking all possibilities for Liza or Gallas to go up. And Liza is a offensive threat. His combinations with Zizou are deadly normaly. But not tonight.
I think that especially when the others defend with 8 guys, you should use the wings. You have to use the space, to tear the opponent's defense apart. And with such a defensive opponent, the wing backs also have the opportunity to join, or at least one of them each time. The centre backs, together with one defensive midfielder, should be enough to cover in this case.

I thought France used the wings a lot. Maybe in the wrong way. Pouring crosses in the box was never going to be the solution. The guys on the wings had to run more the ball to the wingbacks instead of systematically crossing. But it was very difficult as the england midfielders were there to provide cover.
England had a very good defensive game.

I think that especially when the others defend with 8 guys, you should use the wings. You have to use the space, to tear the opponent's defense apart. And with such a defensive opponent, the wing backs also have the opportunity to join, or at least one of them each time. The centre backs, together with one defensive midfielder, should be enough to cover in this case.

Yea maybe, but the Brits were deadly efficient in the air. :eek:

I just watched again the action leading on the french penalty and Henry's positioning is outstanding on the play. He drop behind the defense looking for the back pass to come way before Gerrard actually makes the pass. Predatory stuff.

It has nothing to do with disrespect.
Italy's top 4 is pretty good.

But yes they're quite a notch under the french top 4.
The best player in the world, the best striker in the world, arguably a top 5 striker and arguably a top 5 offensive midfielder.

You seem to be pretty upset about the whole Barthez incident, huh?
You try to whine about semantics and you forget the whole point of the discussion.
1/ You can't agree Barthez is a good goalie
2/ You try to get after me for details such as using the expression " a world above the rest". If I had used "head and shoulders above the rest" or "a clear notch above the rest", you would have been happier?
There you go, let me rephrase it then...

IMO the 4 offensive french players are a clear notch above what any team can offer in this department..

I started with this comment.

C'mon that penalty was horrible..you can't take them any worse, half high/halfway the goal. Good save by Barthez, you can't blame him that Beckham failed.

Could you please tell me, why I'm a whiner. I just stated the obvious.

I just watched again the action leading on the french penalty and Henry's positioning is outstanding on the play. He drop behind the defense looking for the back pass to come way before Gerrard actually makes the pass. Predatory stuff.

Titi is a killer! the best striker in the world. No doubt! :handclap:

England should have won that game...only have themselves to blame!!

-Lampard's goal was absolutely beautiful
-Ledley King stepped up and delivered a great game in the back
-Trezeguet and Henry were virtually invisible
-So was Owen
-Rooney is a tough player
-Beckham's penalty was very poorly taken, perfect height for a golie to save it, wasn't even placed nicely! I think Gerrard or Lampard should take penalties
-Crap call on the Zidane goal
-Wall broke on the free kick, James should have had that side covered
-I have no idea what Gerrard was thinking, James should have come out once that ball was played
-England will bounce back, France will be shocked by Croatia

dammit, i missed the big game. i was so tired, i felt asleep after 20min or so. and i woke up around 5min after the game was finished. that's timing. :shakehead

and thanks to the european-election i wasn't even able to take part of the betting. :(

tomorrow will be a better day, i hope.

GO SWEDEN!

-England will bounce back, France will be shocked by Croatia

I agree with part 1 but I will be very shocked if part 2 occur. France didn't play bad tonight and many teams would have really struggled badly letting France with so much of the ball. The England defense was excellent, I doubt many teams can defend for 90 minutes like they did.

I agree with part 1 but I will be very shocked if part 2 occur. France didn't play bad tonight and many teams would have really struggled badly letting France with so much of the ball. The England defense was excellent, I doubt many teams can defend for 90 minutes like they did.

Oh I'm just being optimistic...I'm a diehard English supporter, and play for the Croatian Club in my city so I'm being optimistic

GO SWEDEN!

Yeah! Nice avatar too, zecke! :)

Yeah! Nice avatar too, zecke! :)

thanks. yours is nice too.

it's the time of the year when i can unite my swedish and celtic heart. it feels so good. :)

thanks. yours is nice too.

it's the time of the year when i can unite my swedish and celtic heart. it feels so good. :)

I'm also a bit of a celtic fan. Always have thought that a Celtic - Rangers derby is about the best soccer entertainment there is. The quality of play maybe isn't always the best but the scots know how to play the game :)

Oh I'm just being optimistic...I'm a diehard English supporter, and play for the Croatian Club in my city so I'm being optimistic

And optimistic you should be. England shouldn't meet too much problem if Eriksson has got his tactic right as tonight. The real problem now is that England will have to play the top eleven players for all the reamining group games which mean tiredness, more injury and suspension risks.
Croatia really missed an opportunity today. But even if they get beaten by France they still will have the qualification to play for in their last game against... England!

Yeah! Nice avatar too, zecke! :)

I second that ;)
.. and tomorrow he'll shine against teammate Stilian Petrov! :)

Wait a second, my friend, you were talking about a "world above the rest".

Spain: Raul, Vicente, Morientes, Valeron, Joaquin.

I'm sure you sleep very well in your French quilt cover tonight.
Italy vs Spain (about the same)
Raul > Totti
Morientes < Vieri
Vicente > Cassano
Del Piero > Valeron

France vs Spain (advantage France)
Henry > Raul
Zidane > Vicente
Trezeguet = Morientes
Pires = Valeron

France vs Italy (very close advantage to France)
Zidane > Totti
Henry = Vieri
Trezeguet = Del Piero
Pires = Cassano

:banana: :innocent:

I'm also a bit of a celtic fan. Always have thought that a Celtic - Rangers derby is about the best soccer entertainment there is. The quality of play maybe isn't always the best but the scots know how to play the game :)

hehe, true, but scots? i see the celts as irish in scotland. :)

and the irish for sure know how to party. i've never been happier than when partying with celtic-fans after a game. :bow:

I second that ;)
.. and tomorrow he'll shine against teammate Stilian Petrov! :)

hehe, i hope so. i think petrov is a bit overrated btw. he needs to bring more to the game.

Henry = Vieri

Henry > Vieri

That's obvious, man. Henry has been the best striker in the world this year.

Italy vs Spain (about the same)
Raul > Totti
Morientes < Vieri
Vicente > Cassano
Del Piero > Valeron

France vs Spain (advantage France)
Henry > Raul
Zidane > Vicente
Trezeguet = Morientes
Pires = Valeron

France vs Italy (very close advantage to France)
Zidane > Totti
Henry = Vieri
Trezeguet = Del Piero
Pires = Cassano

:banana: :innocent:

Well, it's not so much about the <,>,=,+,?,} etc. :) I just wanted to point out that the other countries have great strikers too and luckily I'm not the only one.

As i will not have Internet access before the Italy-Denmark game start, I am putting my guessed score here:

Italy-Denmark: 2-1 (Vieri)

Nah that's just bad faith.
Barthez made a great stop.
It was not "lightly" left of center. It was a good kick and he probably wanted to get it higher. But it was just a great save by Barthez who's proving most of you wrong tonight.

France was stiffled by England's D for the whole game, but ZZ made his magic speak again.
If he has another great euro, he'll climb up a few more ladders on the all time great list.
he followed it up a few seconds later with another save (that's when my comment went up about him maybe stealing a point). Unbelievable finish. NEVER, NEVER play it back in stoppage time. To the sides or just dump it down the field if you are in trouble. Cripes, I have my 3-5 year old team knowing enough to play it to the sides AWAY from our net!

BBC has rated the players. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/euro_2004/3802981.stm)

This is how they saw the game:

England

David James: 6/10
Gary Neville: 7/10
Sol Campbell: 8/10
Ledley King: 8/10
Ashley Cole: 7/10
David Beckham: 6/10
Paul Scholes: 7/10
Steven Gerrard: 5/10
Frank Lampard: 7/10
Wayne Rooney: 8/10
Michael Owen: 5/10

France

Fabien Barthez: 8/10
William Gallas: 7/10
Lilian Thuram: 6/10
Mikael Silvestre: 6/10
Bixente Lizarazu: 7/10
Robert Pires: 7/10
Patrick Vieira: 7/10
Claude Makelele: 6/10
Zinedine Zidane: 9/10
David Trezeguet: 6/10
Thierry Henry: 6/10


I agree with BBC. The only change I'd make is that I'd give Beckham 7 points instead of 6.

Anybody else think think James should have not fouled the shooter on that last play? If he held his position, the angle was really bad and the shooter wouldn't have much to shoot at. You would think the odds of coming up with the save would be better from that spot than from a penalty shot.

And here is what David Beckham said after the match (BBC):

"I couldn't have struck it any better," said Beckham. "If we'd have gone 2-0 up, it would have finished the game off."

And I agree with him, that was a good shot, but Barthez made a great save.


"We didn't deserve that (to lose) but that's football."

With this one I don't quite agree. It's true that England played well 90 minutes, but made two crucial mistakes after that. When you make mistakes like that, you deserve to lose, unless you score more than ones. Like Beckham said: that's football.

Anybody else think think James should have not fouled the shooter on that last play? If he held his position, the angle was really bad and the shooter wouldn't have much to shoot at. You would think the odds of coming up with the save would be better from that spot than from a penalty shot.

I disagree. If you watch the replay Henry was all alone and he clearly managed to control the ball with his foot (i.e. he wouldn't have had problems stopping and turning with the ball). Had James not charged him, Henry would have been left with enough space to dribble and make a shot. And he usually makes keepers look silly from in close, so I don't think James had another choice. Only IMHO, though.

I disagree. If you watch the replay Henry was all alone and he clearly managed to control the ball with his foot (i.e. he wouldn't have had problems stopping and turning with the ball). Had James not charged him, Henry would have been left with enough space to dribble and make a shot. And he usually makes keepers look silly from in close, so I don't think James had another choice. Only IMHO, though.
Was Henry offside?
but anyways good for France. Nice Comeback, Zizu just keeps on getting better.

Whether he was or not means nothing. The "pass" came from an England player.

And it was such a nice pass too... :D

A mental error that cost his team the game... I can't imagine how he must feel.

Whether he was or not means nothing. The "pass" came from an England player.
oh yea!
man they must be yelling at Gerrard right now

I just wanted to point out that the other countries have great strikers too and luckily I'm not the only one.
I never said the contrary.

Italy vs Spain (about the same)
Raul > Totti
Morientes < Vieri
Vicente > Cassano
Del Piero > Valeron

France vs Spain (advantage France)
Henry > Raul
Zidane > Vicente
Trezeguet = Morientes
Pires = Valeron

France vs Italy (very close advantage to France)
Zidane > Totti
Henry = Vieri
Trezeguet = Del Piero
Pires = Cassano

:banana: :innocent:

Here's how I would rate them (I'm comparing offensive midfielders to offensive midfielders and striker to striker) :

Totti > Vicente
Cassano > Extebarria
Morientes = Vieri
Raul = Del Piero

Advantage Italy.


Henry > Raul
Trezeguet = Morientes
Pires > Extebarria
Zidane > Vicente

Advantage France.


Zidane > Totti
Henry > Del Piero
Trezeguet = Vieiri
Pires > Cassano

Advantage France.

How can you blame James? Gerrard is solely to blame for his moment of defensive madness. James was beat like any other goalie would be on a similar play, and did the only thing he could, take down the man and hope he could stop the penalty or hope the ref wouldn't call it for some reason.

I'm blaming James for the Free-kick, NOT the penalty, but I know the order I put them in might have been a bit confusing.

I never said the contrary.

No, you didn't.

It was France then a whole time nothing and then the rest.

Here's how I would rate them (I'm comparing offensive midfielders to offensive midfielders and striker to striker) :

Totti > Vicente
Cassano > Extebarria
Morientes = Vieri
Raul = Del Piero
Here's how you should compare them IMO (based on the position they play):

Totti vs. Valeron
Morientes vs. Vieri
Raul vs. Cassano
Vicente vs. Del Piero
Joaquin/Exteberria vs. Camoranesi

I'm blaming James for the Free-kick, NOT the penalty, but I know the order I put them in might have been a bit confusing.

How can you also not blame him for the free kick? Sure Gerrard made a dumb play, but James came in like a mad man, with his feet first. He could have dived and grabbed it with his hands, or at least he should've tried it that way.

Man I wish we still had Bergkamp, it would give the French a damn good run for their money (Bergkamp, Kluivert, Makaay, van Nistelrooy)..

Wow, incredible finish yesterday.

This game also showed the difference between a really great player (Zidane), and a very good player (Beckham).

Beckham's quote about him not being able to shoot it any better is crap IMO. He signalled the direction way too much, and should have put it further to the side. Still, it was indeed very well played by Barthez. I wonder btw if Silvestre shouldn't have been sent off, as he did take down Rooney who was at that point on a breakaway.

David James' charge was incredibly stupid. Going in this way guaranteed the penalty, as such a charge inevitably led to Henry going down. Had he dove in normally and less wildly, he would have actually had a chance at saving it, since the pace of the ball would have given Henry a rather difficult angle. James positioning on the free kick also looked suspect.

France didn't really impress me though, seeing how powerless they were vs te English defense until England came apart in the final minutes. Their inability to create a lot looked very similar to the game Holland and France played recently.

How can you also not blame him for the free kick? Sure Gerrard made a dumb play, but James came in like a mad man, with his feet first. He could have dived and grabbed it with his hands, or at least he should've tried it that way.


I'm sure you mean penalty right? The confusion is running wild today. :)

Anyway, I do think he went in rather unorthodox, but if Gerrard would've thought and looked before making that pass this wouldn't have been necessary - Gerrard's responsability is bigger than James'

The blame-game:
James - 1 point for letting the ZZ freekick go in and 1 point for going in with the feet first against Henry.
Heskey - 1 point for making an idiotic foul.
Gerrard - 1 point for the horrible pass towards James without orienting first.
Beckham - 1 point for missing a penalty shot.
Erikson - 1 point for weak substitutions and 1 point for a extremely cowardly tactic.
Owen & Scholes - 1 point for not showing up.

The blame-game:
James - 1 point for letting the ZZ freekick go in and 1 point for going in with the feet first against Henry.
Heskey - 1 point for making an idiotic foul.
Gerrard - 1 point for the horrible pass towards James without orienting first.
Beckham - 1 point for missing a penalty shot.
Erikson - 1 point for weak substitutions and 1 point for a extremely cowardly tactic.
Owen & Scholes - 1 point for not showing up.
Scholes was not that bad, esp. in the first half. And the tactical setup of the English team was actually close to perfect. I really don't understand how you can blame Eriksson for this.

Scholes used far to much time when he got the ball and almost all of his passes were backwards (or sideways at best). He was a shadow of himself IMO.

The tactical setup was a disaster in the last half of the second. When you put 9 of your players on 16 m bad things are bound to happen.

The blame-game:
Scholes - 1 point for not showing up.

Scholes used far to much time when he got the ball and almost all of his passes were backwards (or sideways at best). He was a shadow of himself IMO.

Scholes didn't play his usual position, he was lost somewhere on the left.

England shouldn't meet too much problem if Eriksson has got his tactic right as tonight.
Hey guys, do you realize if it was Italy to play the way England did in the second half you would be all here shouting around how much they deserved to lose because of their passive defensive attitude??
England in the second half played poorly. They defended with at least 8 players all stacked on the penalty-area line, with the midfielders way too back. They did zero ball possession despite having Scholes, Beckham, Gerrard and Lampard as midfielders and despite having to protect the lead.. besides for the whole game the only balls they gave to their forwards were high long passes for Owen and Rooney who had zero chances as for headers against French defensemen :dunno:...in the whole match they managed to throw two shots on goal: one on free kick(the goal) and one on the penalty shot... if all this is good tactics...
oh, and English defense was good only in the first half. In the second their positioning was too often so confused that on the opposite side of the ball a French player was often open (without being reached by his teammates) despite defending with 9 players.

Looking at the BBC virtual replay, it is quite obvious that Zidane's penalty was to the exact same spot as Beckhams :)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/virtualreplay/euro2004/

Except for two individual blunders (Heskey on Makélélé and Gerrard's back pass) England played a perfect defensive game.
I think they deserved to win this game 90 minutes long. But thanks god, extra time exists...
I think some English players played a brutal game (Rooney's elbowing on Thuram was quite dirty, and so was Lampard at times). I didn't like Mr Merk's reffing. He sometimes lost his whistle, if you know what I mean... Silvestre should have been sent off, and so does james, if you follow Collina's rules ;)

I'm quite shocked by Zidane's marks in every newspaper I read.
He had the talent to score one superb free kick, and a penalty kick. That doesn't mean he had a great game, far from it.
He almost never found solutions, did not insist on the left wing. France's game was not well balanced at all yesterday evening.
And you can't rely on Gallas when it comes toi delivering dangerous crosses. Sagnol is the better fit for right back.

Hey guys, do you realize if it was Italy to play the way England did in the second half you would be all here shouting around how much they deserved to lose because of their passive defensive attitude??
England in the second half played poorly. They defended with at least 8 players all stacked on the penalty-area line, with the midfielders way too back. They did zero ball possession despite having Scholes, Beckham, Gerrard and Lampard as midfielders and despite having to protect the lead.. besides for the whole game the only balls they gave to their forwards were high long passes for Owen and Rooney who had zero chances as for headers against French defensemen :dunno:...in the whole match they managed to throw two shots on goal: one on free kick(the goal) and one on the penalty shot... if all this is good tactics...
oh, and English defense was good only in the first half. In the second their positioning was too often so confused that on the opposite side of the ball a French player was often open (without being reached by his teammates) despite defending with 9 players.

Well IMO Eriksson had his tactic right. If England had tried to play much more, France would have had many more clear cut chances and I doubt England would have been so near to win the game.
The position of english players did look good to me in the second half, the midfielders working their socks off to cover the defense.
It was a very negative performance by England, no doubt about it. But it was the first game of the tournament and I think both team were really cautious.
But this is just my opinion.