Dutch national soccer-team.. problem/solution..

After following each and every match since missing the World Cup in 2002, I've noticed a strong patern as of what was wrong. Yes we still qualified for Euro 2004, but with a whole lot of difficulties and a team with that much individual talent, along with some great coaches, should not go through that. Yeah we finished 2nd in the pool, and we finished behind a respectable team, but all the games were won without playing a convincing game, no game was trully dominated. The Dutch lack a playmaker behind their strikers. Kluivert used to be capable of this, but he still seems to be in the same dip of a year ago. Can't expect Rafael or Sneijder to do this either, they're too young, too inexperienced and they ain't that much of an upgrade above Davids, Seedorf, Robben to warrant such an important role for 90 minutes of play. What I've come to realise is that the Dutch need some one that see's the game like no one else, one that can create scoring oppertunities out of dead situations. One that is the architecht and decides what's happening on the pitch. Preferably one that can score as well, being clutch. Yes, you guessed it, the Dutch miss Dennis Bergkamp more then they will ever admit. It's too bad Dennis quit playing at the international level, cause his role for the team was immensly underrated and it will take years before someone else steps in his shoes and provides the same value and impact. He would be a wonderful rolemodel and tutor for the young studs we have now. He can still play at the highest level, he's still making the crowd go "ooh" and "aah", and he's still getting praises from anyone. I caught this one from teammate Henry, end March/begin June..


Volgens Thierry Henry is Bergkamp bijna net zo goed als Zinedine Zidane, de beste speler van de wereld. Henry kan deze vergelijking maken omdat hij met zowel Bergkamp (Arsenal) en Zidane (Franse nationale ploeg) speelt.

"Het moment van spelen bij Bergkamp is geweldig. Ik heb met veel spelers gespeeld. Bergkamp heeft niet van die trucjes als Zidane, maar ik denk niet dat er een andere speler te vinden is die zo goed en snel het spel ziet als Dennis. Iedereen die met hem heeft gespeeld, zal je vertellen hoe goed hij is. Als Dennis scoort, is het nooit een gewone goal. Het is altijd wat wij noemen een "Dennis Bergkamp goal".
Hij is een voorbeeld voor de jonge spelers. Het is altijd fijn als hij in de buurt is",

aldus de lofzang van Henry op Bergkamp

Translation..


Dennis Bergkamp is nearly every bit as good as Zinedine Zidane, according to Thierry Henry, widely recognized as one of, if not, the, best player in the world. Henry is able to make this comparison because he has played with as well Bergkamp (Arsenal) as Zidane (French national team)

"The moments playing with Bergkamp are absolutely great. I've played with a lot of players. Bergkamp might not have the one on one skills of Zidane, but I don't think you can find one player that sees the game as well and as fast as Dennis. Everybody that has ever played with him will tell you how good he really is. When Dennis scores, it's never a regular, normal goal. It's what we always call a "Dennis Bergkamp goal". He is a rolemodel for the younger players. It's always fun being around him."

.. praises Henry regarding Bergkamp..


I honestly think that Bergkamp is a huge reason why we missed qualifying for the WC and why we're still having trouble creating chances and dominating offensively. I would definitely have the Dutch in the same boat as France if Bergkamp were to be included on this roster, but he isn't so they are not. The difference he provides is that big IMO.

Believe it or not but I was thinking the same yesterday.

Bergkamp would probably help your attack...yes. The problem I see however is the defense, especially without Stam. Good players no question, but by no means top class. That is going to hurt your chances big time.

Bergkamp would probably help your attack...yes. The problem I see however is the defense, especially without Stam. Good players no question, but by no means top class. That is going to hurt your chances big time.

Not again.. Our problem is scoring, not defending. Quit judging our team on paper.

And yes Frolov, it became that much more obvious during the game of last night, despite the fact it was a weak opponent and that is was an exhibition game. We had trouble creating chances against a pretty poor opponent.

And yes Frolov, it became that much more obvious during the game of last night, despite the fact it was a weak opponent and that is was an exhibition game. We had trouble creating chances against a pretty poor opponent.

Exactly and this wasn't the first time.

Not again.. Our problem is scoring, not defending. Quit judging our team on paper.

We`ll see. I`m still far from sold on the Oranje defense...

We`ll see. I`m still far from sold on the Oranje defense...

I am very sold on their defense, it's the inability of their forwards creating chances that worries me.

I used to be a huge Bergkamp/Dutch football fan, but since I moved back to the US, I don't get as much coverage as I like.

Are there any young Dutch players who can potentially take over Bergkamp's role?
I know Van der Vaart is one of them...

I used to be a huge Bergkamp/Dutch football fan, but since I moved back to the US, I don't get as much coverage as I like.

Are there any young Dutch players who can potentially take over Bergkamp's role?
I know Van der Vaart is one of them...

He'd wish. Van der Vaart is already quite valueble, and I assume this to increase over the years, but Bergkamp had a brilliance I haven't spotted in either of our young players yet. Rafael can generate plays and create scoring oppertunities, but definitely not to the same extend and definitely not as easy, nor will he ever IMO. Rafael fails when the opposition plays tight D, Bergkamp succeeds no matter what. Sneijder isn't as offensive, and when he does attack, he is usually the one finishing. He has a stellar shot, so why not. Rafael is the closests, but he can't and likely never will take over Bergkamp's role, at least not at good.

Bergkamp is one of these magical guys that can take over a game by two moves, passes or shots.
He's magical.
Like Zidane, like Cantona, like Cruyff, like Maradona, Pele, Platini, Puskas and all of these select few that are all time players.
Still you can't forget the fact he could have been much more than what he's been (like Cantona to a certain extent).

Like M=D said, from the new generation of Dutch players Rafael vd Vaart is the player who could get closest in taking over Bergkamp's role. However, those are some pretty good shoes to fill, although Rafael is extremely talented. However, his on-field performance appeared to stall a bit this year, although hopefully due to some somewhat tougher situations at times off the pitch, he has used this year to mature and continue the upwards trend next season. Still, I feel when comparing Rafael to Bergkamp, he is a bit more of an attacking midfielder, whereas Dennis Bergkamp is a bit more an attacker.

Wesley Sneijder will barring any major surprises be a mainstay on Oranje's midfield for years to come; however while scoring fairly frequently, he is midfielder rather than a striker. He initiates attack, is a very good passer and has a great shot, but he will be feeding the strikers rather than being one of them. He does have a tendency to step in at times and score some crucial goals though.

Another guy who could play at the '10' position would be Robin van Persie. However, he is quite the wildcard. While very talented, he hasn't shown the maturity some of his peers (Sneijder, vd Vaart, Robben, etc.) have, so it remains to be seen whether he can fulfill his potential.

Still you can't forget the fact he could have been much more than what he's been (like Cantona to a certain extent).

I feel that his tranfer to Inter really had a large influence on that. When he went there together with Wim Jonk, they were basically told that Inter was planning on building a team around him. However, in reality he ended up in a system in which neither he nor Wim Jonk truly fitted, with a mentality which completely differed from theirs. For example Bergkamp ended up forming a couple at times with Ruben Sosa, not exactly a player of the type he could click with (read: egoism). When Dennis moved to Arsenal, his first years were fairly good but not great yet, only to truly take of in 97-98 when the work of Arsene Wenger started to take form and Arsenal was changed into the more attractively and 'continental' (when compared to kick and rush) team as we know it today.

It is rather unfortunate though that with Holland, he was very close to a major international prize on several occassions but never won one. Basically the story of this entire generation...

I feel that his tranfer to Inter really had a large influence on that. When he went there together with Wim Jonk, they were basically told that Inter was planning on building a team around him. However, in reality he ended up in a system in which neither he nor Wim Jonk truly fitted, with a mentality which completely differed from theirs. For example Bergkamp ended up forming a couple at times with Ruben Sosa, not exactly a player of the type he could click with (read: egoism). When Dennis moved to Arsenal, his first years were fairly good but not great yet, only to truly take of in 97-98 when the work of Arsene Wenger started to take form and Arsenal was changed into the more attractively and 'continental' (when compared to kick and rush) team as we know it today.

It is rather unfortunate though that with Holland, he was very close to a major international prize on several occassions but never won one. Basically the story of this entire generation...
Yeah a lot of good footballers made the wrong choice in their careers of moving to Italy.
Platini was the one that advised Cantona to got England rather than Italy because he felt offensive talent still had a meaning there...

Boy I hate Serie A more every day I think.

Put RVN, Kluivert and Makaay up front and you'll score about 9 headers a game.

Put RVN, Kluivert and Makaay up front and you'll score about 9 headers a game.

We'd still need someone capable of playing "in the shadow of the strikers".. All 3 float nowadays, it won't work.

Its not good at all Van. This is far too tough a tourney to be playing mediocre footy- as you well know. I am really looking forward to this event.

Am I the only fan who finds it uneasy to accept that the only team the Oranje could beat leading up to EURO 2004 was the Faroe Islands? :banghead:

And even the Faroe's scored vs. Holland. Mabye the match vs. their arch-rivals will motivate them enough.

And even the Faroe's scored vs. Holland.

No they did not, the Dutch won 3-0..

Dick Advocaat is now instuting a different system as he has stepped down from his famous "window" tactic. He will play with two wings and only one striker; in which case I would go with the following line-up heading into the game against the vieze Germans, the backups are between brackets:

GK: Van der Sar (Sander Westerveld)

LD: Phillip Cocu (Giovanni van Bronckhorst)
CD: Jaap Stam (Andre Ooier)
CD: John Heitinga (Frank de Boer)
RD: Wilfred Bouma (Michael Reiziger)

LW: Arjen Robben (Andy van der Meyde)
CM: Rafael van der Vaart (Paul Bosvelt, replacement of van Bommel)
CM: Edgar Davids (Clarance Seedorf) (Used in a more defensive role)
CM: Wesley Sneijder (....)
RM: Marc Overmars (Boudewijn Zenden)

FW: Patrick Kluivert (Ruud van Nistelrooy, Roy Makaay, Pierre van Hooijdonk)

No they did not, the Dutch won 3-0..

Oops, sorry about that.

Come on M=G, there's no way Kluivert should be in the team when they change to a one striker set up. He's just totally out of form... Besides, Ruud is always at his best when he is the only striker.

I'd go with:

G: VDS

DL: Cocu
DC: Stam (another one who looks to be totally out of form to me)
DC Heitinga
DR: Bouma

LW: Robben
MC: Davids
MC: Sneijder
AMC: Van Der Vaart
RW: Overmars

SC: Ruud

Isn't Makaay the only Dutch striker, who's in his normal game shape?

That's kinda interesting. While the Spanish press is debating whether to drop their 4-2-3-1 for that both Raul and Valeron could play, the Dutch are talking about implementing that system, which is very Spanish in the sense that it's mostly used in La Liga...

No question here in France.
4-4-2 with Henry, Trezeguet, Zidane and Pires as offensive players, and Vieira, Makelele, Lizarazu, Thuram, and two of Sagnol, Desailly (probably these two), Silvestre and Gallas as defensive players.

Isn't Makaay the only Dutch striker, who's in his normal game shape?

Van Hooijdonk is as well. However, Makaay > V Hooijdonk. (although Pierre is an ideal pinchhitter)

Like BF, I would not choose for Patrick Kluivert in a 1 striker system. Such a system requires a finisher at the striker position, whereas Kluivert tends to be more of a creating striker who also frequently scores. Not to mention he is currently not in his best shape. The choice would then be between Makaay and RVN, and with Ruud not entirely fit, my current choice would be Roy Makaay. Even more so since he was the most dangerous of the Dutch strikers vs Ireland and also was quite an improvement over his predecessors vs Belgium.

Another need for this system however is wingers who are in a good shape. Neither Van der Meyde nor Overmars has been at their best so far due to limited playing time and injuries. Moreover, Arjen Robben has just returned from an injury, so his play remains to be seen. Wilfred Bouma indeed also should fear for his spot, since during the last two serious games he has made several rather glaring mistakes...

My team:

G: Van der Sar

LD: Cocu
CD: Stam
CD: Heitinga
RD: Reiziger

RM: Sneijder
CM: Davids
LM: Vd Vaart

LW: Robben
RW: Vd Meyde

S: Makaay


Davids would be the more controlling midfieler, whereas Sneijder and VD Vaart would provide most of the offensive creativity, playing somewhat more central than in the 4-4-2 system.

While I am a fan of Marc Overmars, he hasn't really been able to show anything in the last few games, whereas Andy vd Meyde did have a couple of good actions vs Ireland.

Quick Dutch update..

For the Dutch and Belgium posters among us, did anyone see "Studio Sport Zomer" yesterday? They showed a small part of practise like they do everytime, this time it were sprint relays. Lots of fast guys participated (Zenden, Robben, Ruud, Makaay, etc..) but this one character beat them all, from Arjen Robben to Ruud van Nistelrooy, this character is no one less than Jaap Stam. Jaap is so much faster than he looks and his strenght prevents anyone to get by him. Now I knew Jaap was fast, but I never thought he would beat Arjen Robben..

Furthermore, Ruud was doing some tricks in front of some 8 year old kids that were watching on. You should've seen the expression on their faces, funny moment..

And also, it was Sneijder's birthday (he turned 20) and the group picked him up and threw him in the air, 20 times. The group seems very relaxed, they all seem to get along together, they all have fun, maybe too much fun. Dicky also got mad a couple of times, so that's a good thing as well IMO..

Btw; the Dutch have about 5 or 6 guys that all have their fair share of small, no impact injuries. There were about 4 that trained individually, only Seedorf, who's a no-go for at least another week, was not present.

I have no idea how reliable news this is, but Finnish media (MTV3) predicted that the midfield and attack would look like this:

ML: Davids
MC: Cocu
MR: Sneijder

LW: Overmaars
RW: van der Meyde

S: van Nistelrooy

Apparently they have used this kind of line-up in the training on Wednesday.

I have no idea how reliable news this is, but Finnish media (MTV3) predicted that the midfield and attack would look like this:

ML: Davids
MC: Cocu
MR: Sneijder

LW: Overmaars
RW: van der Meyde

S: van Nistelrooy

Apparently they have used this kind of line-up in the training on Wednesday.

That's inaccurate, Rafael van der Vaart will play center midfield, Cocu will play Left back. Not sure about the striker either, it's up in air right now, it could be any of the 4.. I also prefer Robben above either Overmars or van der Meyde, just like about any Dutchman would..

There are a lot of players training individually, so going by the line-ups they use in practise is not accurate at all.

Quick Dutch update..

For the Dutch and Belgium posters among us, did anyone see "Studio Sport Zomer" yesterday? They showed a small part of practise like they do everytime, this time it were sprint relays. Lots of fast guys participated (Zenden, Robben, Ruud, Makaay, etc..) but this one character beat them all, from Arjen Robben to Ruud van Nistelrooy, this character is no one less than Jaap Stam. Jaap is so much faster than he looks and his strenght prevents anyone to get by him. Now I knew Jaap was fast, but I never thought he would beat Arjen Robben..


Yet I've had a huge discussion with some fellow who said he was slow. I always knew he was fast, it's optical illusion. Jaap Stam on Thierry Henry and we don't have to worry..

That's inaccurate, Rafael van der Vaart will play center midfield, Cocu will play Left back. Not sure about the striker either, it's up in air right now, it could be any of the 4.. I also prefer Robben above either Overmars or van der Meyde, just like about any Dutchman would..

There are a lot of players training individually, so going by the line-ups they use in practise is not accurate at all.

Nah Cocu won't play leftback, he will either play at central midfield or centre-back.

I think this will be the lineup

--------------------------Van der Sar-----------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reiziger-----------Stam----------------Cocu------van Bronckhorst/Zenden
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------Sneijder--------------Davids-----------------Van der Vaart--------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Van der Meyde-----------Ruud/Makaay--------------------------Overmars

Mark my words.


Robben has just returned from an injury. We have to be careful with him, he's a bonus.