Bluelines: Pondering the future of Holik and Messier (MERGED)

http://msgnetwork.com/content_news.jsp?articleID=v0000msgn20040412T21072 9386&newsgroup=ap.sportsml.columnist.article&sports=ice-hockey&team=Rangers&league=nhl

Couple of comments (even though it is Stan Fischler):

1) If Bobby Holik is so unhappy, he should volunteer to eat some contract and make it possible and worthwhile for Sather to trade him. He took the money, left a Cup contender and came to a team that he had to have doubts about from the start. If he is so smart, he should have recognized that the Rangers were loaded with question marks and it does not take a rocket scientist to see that the Rangers had not/have not made the playoffs for years.

As far as "crossing Sather" I'm not sure what that really means.

2) Sure Mark Messier was third on the team in scoring behind Jagr and Holik but that is not the whole story. At the end of the season, Messier was one of the few players who had played a full season at the NHL level. Mark did have a nice season. And no one is saying he has to retire. However, Mark has made it tough on himself by saying that he would only play for the Rangers.

3) Its hardly newsworthy to say that Larry Robinson and Joel Quinneville are the top two choices for next Ranger coach. It will be fun to watch Robby spurn Slats again this summer. And Quinneville is no lock either. I have to believe there will be better jobs out there.

4) I think that Paul Maurice is an intriguing choice. It would be even more so if it meant that Adam Graves comes in the package.

5) I think that Ted Nolan is chasing shadows.

Holik is untradeable for the same reason that those who comment that Jagr cost us "only" $6m. Like Jagr, even if Holik himself eats some of the money or Sather does, does not change the fact that he would count the full value against the Cap. That in itself will prevent teams for trading for him.
However, as for crossing JAckass, I as glad that Holik was saying what he was. Anything that brings attention to Sather's ineptitude is a good thing. So I take it that Saviour Glen did not like the "We are the worst fundemental team in hockey" comment. Too damm bad, Jackass, becuase it's true. And now, they are stuck with each other.
Robinson will not come here. He had a good excuse last year with the vets, but he spurned us already and there's no need to go, hat-in-hand to him. For all my misgivings about him, Robby knows one thing and that is DO NOT work under Sather.
Q is my top choice, but I got to believe that there are better opportunities for him. Paul Maurice does nothing for me, even if it does mean seeing Gravey behind the bench.

As far as "crossing Sather" I'm not sure what that really means.

'crossing sather' means speaking the truth instead of blindly agreeing with everything sather does and says

Holik is untradeable for the same reason that those who comment that Jagr cost us "only" $6m.

the rangers can make holik and jagr more tradeable and more cap friendly by taking advantage of the 2/3 buyouts before june 30th...

holik is owed $27 mil over the next 3 years, so the rangers could buy him out for $18 mil (spread over 6 years) and then resign him for 3 years, $9 mil...it still cost the rangers the same $$ and holik still makes the same, but he'd then technically make $3 mil/year instead of $9 mil/year...

and as far as a trade goes, if holik really wants to be moved he could accept a buyout for even less than 2/3 to make a deal happen if he wants...

it might be an unlikely scenario, but it is an option

Q is my top choice, but I got to believe that there are better opportunities for him. Paul Maurice does nothing for me, even if it does mean seeing Gravey behind the bench.

Really?

I've got no problems with Q, but Maurice seemed to do much more, with much less. I think he'd be perfect to mold a young core..

I'd be happy with McGill, Maurice or Q..

I'd be happy with McGill also---if it's a young team...As for Maurice, I'm not so sure..He might be right for a young team, but he hasn't proven it..The team he had success with was, except for 3-4 players, was a team full of veteran pluggers and grinders...I do not want that type of team...Still, perhaps he could do the same thing with a youth-filled line-up...same thing with Robinson who, as a head coach, mainly worked with vets...Quenville probably has the most varied coaching experineces of them all and is a worth candidate...

And what's this with Graves? would he come in as an assistant with Maurice?

Really?

I've got no problems with Q, but Maurice seemed to do much more, with much less. I think he'd be perfect to mold a young core..

I'd be happy with McGill, Maurice or Q..
Maurice does not seem tough enough. The impression that I get about McGill & Fotiu is that they instilled the fear of not playing into their players. Not only must they (the players) play well but they must play the way that the coaches want them to or they do not play at all. And since McGill has had some of these guys now for a year and change, I think that sholud Q turn us down (likely scenario), bringing in McGill would be good since the young guys know his system and already know that he is a disciplinarian.

I love what McGill and Foitu did in Hartford and would love to see them get a promotion to the NYR (if you can call it that). The question still remains, Will Jagr be able to buy into the system and how long will it take until he disagrees and won't play to his potential??

The question still remains, Will Jagr be able to buy into the system and how long will it take until he disagrees and won't play to his potential??
Who cares? I think that the last 7 years have shown that playing pond hockey does not work. He can pout all he wants, but he is not going to be surrounded by the All-Star team that was here last year. And, to tell the truth, Jagr really seems energized by playing in NY. I don't think that he will do anything to jeopardize that. Not that it would matter as he is pretty much untradeable.

Holik is untradeable for the same reason that those who comment that Jagr cost us "only" $6m. Like Jagr, even if Holik himself eats some of the money or Sather does, does not change the fact that he would count the full value against the Cap. That in itself will prevent teams for trading for him.
However, as for crossing JAckass, I as glad that Holik was saying what he was. Anything that brings attention to Sather's ineptitude is a good thing. So I take it that Saviour Glen did not like the "We are the worst fundemental team in hockey" comment. Too damm bad, Jackass, becuase it's true. And now, they are stuck with each other.
Robinson will not come here. He had a good excuse last year with the vets, but he spurned us already and there's no need to go, hat-in-hand to him. For all my misgivings about him, Robby knows one thing and that is DO NOT work under Sather.
Q is my top choice, but I got to believe that there are better opportunities for him. Paul Maurice does nothing for me, even if it does mean seeing Gravey behind the bench.


assessed against the cap if a team is only paying a portion of the contract.

Anything stated about what the new CBA is going to contain is pure speculation.

And with the league deciding on a case by case basis how much cash they allow in individual transactions, I would speculate the opposite of what you said to be more likely to happen.

But again, it's speculation on my part cause I have no clue what's going to be included in the new CBA

Maurice does not seem tough enough.

That may just be perception. Like Q, and like McGill, his team sure played tough enough. Whether they're craking the whip or not, as long as they play tough, the coach is tough IMO..

And what's this with Graves? would he come in as an assistant with Maurice?

It's pure Maven speculation. Graves and Maurice are good friends however.

I would keep Mcgill in Hartford.... he's done a great job down there, and over the next few years we're going to have more and more of our young prospects go through there so it gives them a nice start in the organization. I'd leave him down, and then seriously consider bringing him up in 3-4 years after he's coached pretty much all of our young guys.

Anything stated about what the new CBA is going to contain is pure speculation.

Yes, but there is more than enough of a prescedent if you notice that in ALL other major sports, the full value of any contract is what counts against a cap/luxury tax. And the full value is counted against the team holding on to the player. There are no scenarios where the value of a contract's hit against any cap or luxury tax is split amongst several teams.

"And with the league deciding on a case by case basis how much cash they allow in individual transactions, I would speculate the opposite of what you said to be more likely to happen."

There is almost no chance of what you are saying happening. The league is not going to have their cap/luxury tax and then decide that a players magnitude will deterime if said player's contract can be a cap hit for several teams. This is not done in ANY sport and will not be the case in hockey.

Yes, but there is more than enough of a prescedent if you notice that in ALL other major sports, the full value of any contract is what counts against a cap/luxury tax. And the full value is counted against the team holding on to the player. There are no scenarios where the value of a contract's hit against any cap or luxury tax is split amongst several teams.

"And with the league deciding on a case by case basis how much cash they allow in individual transactions, I would speculate the opposite of what you said to be more likely to happen."

There is almost no chance of what you are saying happening. The league is not going to have their cap/luxury tax and then decide that a players magnitude will deterime if said player's contract can be a cap hit for several teams. This is not done in ANY sport and will not be the case in hockey.
There is also no sport that instituted a hard cap right away so your point has no precedent either. No way in hell does the NHL cripple the league right away by just slamming a cap on the league and telling them that they have to comply right away or in a short period of time. If there is a cap it will be gradually grandfathered in to allow large contracts to expire and allow teams to prepare to alter their teams. Believe me, Jagr and his contract will not cripple the Rangers, nor will Holik's.

http://www.msgnetwork.com/content_news.jsp?articleID=v0000msgn20040412T21072 9386&newsgroup=ap.sportsml.columnist.article&sports=ice-hockey&team=Rangers&league=nhl

Interesting comment in there about Holik and Sather not quite agreeing on a game plan. Isn't it time that players should stop having a say and just shut up and play for the team or leave?

With all the undeserved money that Holik is making he'd better shut up, and stand in line. If he shuts his hole, and we get a legit coach, then maybe this team could at least start playing like ::drum roll:: - a TEAM.

With all the undeserved money that Holik is making he'd better shut up, and stand in line. If he shuts his hole, and we get a legit coach, then maybe this team could at least start playing like ::drum roll:: - a TEAM.


I agree , Holik should keep his mouth shut. What exactly has he accomplished with the Rangers that he thinks he should have a say in what goes on? The only reason he is still on the team is because no other team is stupid enough to pay him all that money!

I would keep Mcgill in Hartford.... he's done a great job down there, and over the next few years we're going to have more and more of our young prospects go through there so it gives them a nice start in the organization. I'd leave him down, and then seriously consider bringing him up in 3-4 years after he's coached pretty much all of our young guys.

If McGill has an opportunity for a promotion to the next level, he'll be gone in a heartbeat.

Another name that hasn't been brought up yet, and who may be the best choice for the rangers in their current situation:

Jaques Martin

If the Sens lose in round one (very very possible), I thnk you'll see Martin pay for it with his job. The Sens seem to have regressed a bit this year, add in another loss to the hated Leafs, and the fact that Martin & Muckler don't seem to be on the same page in regards to Jason Spezza, and I think Martin is in big trouble if the Sens don't rally to win this series.

Martin has had success dealing with a very young Ottawa team and getting them turned around and headed in the right direction.

Amazingly Holik is exercising his right to free speech and as such is perfectly allowed to do so ... if the coach or GM don't like what he says they can fine him, sit him down or talk to him ... thats what they should be doing as his BOSS. But since we have no accountability in this organization that will never happen ...

BTW... whether Holik played well this year or not should affect whether he has the right to say it .. but yes, I am sick of hearing him talk as well.

Yes, but there is more than enough of a prescedent if you notice that in ALL other major sports, the full value of any contract is what counts against a cap/luxury tax. And the full value is counted against the team holding on to the player. There are no scenarios where the value of a contract's hit against any cap or luxury tax is split amongst several teams.

"And with the league deciding on a case by case basis how much cash they allow in individual transactions, I would speculate the opposite of what you said to be more likely to happen."

There is almost no chance of what you are saying happening. The league is not going to have their cap/luxury tax and then decide that a players magnitude will deterime if said player's contract can be a cap hit for several teams. This is not done in ANY sport and will not be the case in hockey.

Fine. How do you know that it will be 100% in effect instantly? How do you know there won't be a larry bird exception? How do you know that previously paid portions of salary won't be considered for a grandfathering period?

All of this is your speculation ... and although it may end up being the case until any of us see a final CBA ... this is all it is is speculation.

I agree , Holik should keep his mouth shut. What exactly has he accomplished with the Rangers that he thinks he should have a say in what goes on? The only reason he is still on the team is because no other team is stupid enough to pay him all that money!
What has he done? Granted, sometimes he was as apathetic as anyone else, but for the most part, Holik played hard. He posted his 3rd highest goals and points in his career. He wound up w/ 25 goals & 56 points. When we signed him, we said that if he gets around 60 points, everyone would be happy.
Also it should be noted that Holik was at his absolute best when used to shut down the other teams top player. The problem was that he was used in that role only a handfull of times. As Melrose said, just because you pay a guy like Forsberg, does not suddenly make him Forsberg. Jackass acquired Holik becuase he was the best, biggest, nasties shut down center in the game. And then he proceeded to try to change his game and make him into something that he is not. Playing Jagr w/ him was utterly moronic.
Holik was horribly misused. And we ALL, including Jackass, knew that Holik has a mouth on him. For the most part, Holik only said the truth and if that caused attention to be brought upon Sather's utter ineptitude, so much the better.

Fine. How do you know that it will be 100% in effect instantly? How do you know there won't be a larry bird exception? How do you know that previously paid portions of salary won't be considered for a grandfathering period?

All of this is your speculation ... and although it may end up being the case until any of us see a final CBA ... this is all it is is speculation.
What I am saying is that in no case will you ever see a team split a cap hit on any player. The team that holds the contract is the one that absorbs the full hit against the cap/luxury tax.

Amazingly Holik is exercising his right to free speech and as such is perfectly allowed to do so ... if the coach or GM don't like what he says they can fine him, sit him down or talk to him ... thats what they should be doing as his BOSS. But since we have no accountability in this organization that will never happen ...

BTW... whether Holik played well this year or not should affect whether he has the right to say it .. but yes, I am sick of hearing him talk as well.

Noone is saying that Holik should be arrested, I'm just of the belief that individual players shouldn't publicly call out the coach, and criticize his teammates.

Imagine if Sheffield started crtiticizing Torre or Steinbrenner. What if he called our Jeter or A-Rod? Maybe noone on the Rangers has that star power, but the effect is similiar.

What has he done? Granted, sometimes he was as apathetic as anyone else, but for the most part, Holik played hard. He posted his 3rd highest goals and points in his career. He wound up w/ 25 goals & 56 points. When we signed him, we said that if he gets around 60 points, everyone would be happy.
Also it should be noted that Holik was at his absolute best when used to shut down the other teams top player. The problem was that he was used in that role only a handfull of times. As Melrose said, just because you pay a guy like Forsberg, does not suddenly make him Forsberg. Jackass acquired Holik becuase he was the best, biggest, nasties shut down center in the game. And then he proceeded to try to change his game and make him into something that he is not. Playing Jagr w/ him was utterly moronic.
Holik was horribly misused. And we ALL, including Jackass, knew that Holik has a mouth on him. For the most part, Holik only said the truth and if that caused attention to be brought upon Sather's utter ineptitude, so much the better.


How much have the Devils missed Holik since he is with the Rangers ? You are right in stating that the Rangers are using him incorrectly on the 1st line. IMO he is not a team player and even though it is not his fault , he is overrated and overpaid. He is a product of a very successful 'system' that simply replaced him with someone else that achevied the same results as he did(Madden).

How much have the Devils missed Holik since he is with the Rangers ? You are right in stating that the Rangers are using him incorrectly on the 1st line. IMO he is not a team player and even though it is not his fault , he is overrated and overpaid. He is a product of a very successful 'system' that simply replaced him with someone else that achevied the same results as he did(Madden).
How much do the Devils miss him? Judging that they get absolutely crushed in size whenever they cannot get the matchup that they want, I would say A LOT. They currently have no answer whatsoever for Prims when Hitch gets the last match up. Their lack of size may not have shown that much in the regular season, but IMO, it is certainly showing now.
How is he not a team player? Becuase he shoots his mouth off and calls it like it is? Is he overpaid? Absolutely. Is he overrated? I don't see how. Almost all of us agree that he is not a top line player. So is he overrated as a top line center? Yes. But if used properly as a 3rd line shutdown center, I don't see how you can say that. Yashin faints at his mere mention and Sundin is nowwhere to be seen when Holik is used against him. Joe Thorton made not a peep when Holik was used against him.
To call him simply a product of the NJ system, would to injustice to the type of player he is. IF you want to see the real HOlik, then use him as he was always intended to be used.

How much do the Devils miss him? Judging that they get absolutely crushed in size whenever they cannot get the matchup that they want, I would say A LOT. They currently have no answer whatsoever for Prims when Hitch gets the last match up. Their lack of size may not have shown that much in the regular season, but IMO, it is certainly showing now.
How is he not a team player? Becuase he shoots his mouth off and calls it like it is? Is he overpaid? Absolutely. Is he overrated? I don't see how. Almost all of us agree that he is not a top line player. So is he overrated as a top line center? Yes. But if used properly as a 3rd line shutdown center, I don't see how you can say that. Yashin faints at his mere mention and Sundin is nowwhere to be seen when Holik is used against him. Joe Thorton made not a peep when Holik was used against him.
To call him simply a product of the NJ system, would to injustice to the type of player he is. IF you want to see the real HOlik, then use him as he was always intended to be used.

Maybe I am missing something , didn't the Devils win the cup last year without Holik ? As far as being a team player , he is 6-4 235 pounds and doesn't stand up for his teammates. He starts a lot of altercations and never stands up to face the challenge. His so called 'honest' remarks to the media do nothing to help the team. All they do is distance him from his teammates and make Larry Brooks smile. How hard is it to shutdown Yashin anyway ?

How hard is it to shutdown Yashin anyway ?
How hard is it to shutdown Thorton or Sundin?

"As far as being a team player , he is 6-4 235 pounds and doesn't stand up for his teammates."

So fighting is the sole method to determine if a guy is a team player or not?

"He starts a lot of altercations and never stands up to face the challenge."

So too do quite a lot of other players. THere are those that fight and those that don't. Agitating and not fighting is an art practiced by lots of players.

"His so called 'honest' remarks to the media do nothing to help the team. All they do is distance him from his teammates"

What teamates are distanced from him? And his remarks do help the team when they call Sather's utter ineptitude into public light. Saying that the team is the worst fundementally the worst in the league is the truth.

Maybe I am missing something , didn't the Devils win the cup last year without Holik ? As far as being a team player , he is 6-4 235 pounds and doesn't stand up for his teammates. He starts a lot of altercations and never stands up to face the challenge. His so called 'honest' remarks to the media do nothing to help the team. All they do is distance him from his teammates and make Larry Brooks smile. How hard is it to shutdown Yashin anyway ?
Holik has definately played hard enough to warrant respect and admiration from us fans. Maybe not $45 million worth, but he has done everything that has been asked from him. He's chipped in his part offensively and if Sather and his coaches would utilize him properly he could have been even more usefull to this club. Yes, he has trailed off in later part of seasons but seriously, who the hell wouldn't when there is nothing left to play for?? The fact is that Bobby has been stating the same mantra that many of us here have been saying for years. Why is in not acceptable for him to state the same critisisms of this team that we, the fans, have been stating also? He is the only one with enough balls to publicly say what the rest of us are really thinking. I see nothing wrong with this, and personally if I were Dolan or Glen and my $45 million man was demanding changes than I would listen up. The one area that I can fault Holik for is that he never stood up for himself or his teammates by dropping the gloves, like during that fatefull Philly game. But to be honest, he had the same way when he was a Devil so I cant really expect him to just change his game in that degree. IMO that is the reason we need a heavyweight like Grenier but that is another debate in itself.

How hard is it to shutdown Thorton or Sundin?

"As far as being a team player , he is 6-4 235 pounds and doesn't stand up for his teammates."

So fighting is the sole method to determine if a guy is a team player or not?

"He starts a lot of altercations and never stands up to face the challenge."

So too do quite a lot of other players. THere are those that fight and those that don't. Agitating and not fighting is an art practiced by lots of players.

"His so called 'honest' remarks to the media do nothing to help the team. All they do is distance him from his teammates"

What teamates are distanced from him? And his remarks do help the team when they call Sather's utter ineptitude into public light. Saying that the team is the worst fundementally the worst in the league is the truth.


There is no sense in continuing this debate. You obviously think highly of Holik , and I obviously do not. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Holik is what he is.

A very good 3rd line center.

Unfortunately for him greater money brings greater expectations. That whole coaching thing doesn't help either :/

Holik is what he is.

A very good 3rd line center.

Unfortunately for him greater money brings greater expectations. That whole coaching thing doesn't help either :/


He's a very very good 3rd line center than can step up to the 2nd line occassionally and competently.

I didn't expect him to be anymore than what he was while in NJ and for those that expected somethign else, don't blame Holik that you didn't get what you expected. Holik was, who Holik is. Those that had set standards for a 31 year old player higher than what he's established already is a little off in their thinking.

And yes, the coaching was atrocious all year long.