Canada Or Russia [Archive]

Sentinel

08-07-2009, 10:55 PM

ESPO: the question wasn't "who's gonna win?" but "who's gonna have the better team?" That can be answered in two ways.

Talent-wise, Russia is clearly better upfront. Top snipers, top scorers, and all current award winners are Russian. Their stars are all in their prime, they are battle-tested, they are all winners at the NHL/KHL/IIHF level. Canadian forwards are certainly talented, but nobody on their team is on the level of Russia's Big 4 (Dats, Ovie, Kovie, and Malx). Canada is slightly better in their own end, but not by the same margin. Their big D are mostly past their prime. So is Brodeur, and Luongo has never accomplished anything at any serious level. At least Nabokov is now a World Champion.

The real question is: how will all these players gel into one team. Russian team has a history of coming apart and never really playing like a team (Nagano98 was the closest they've ever been to a TEAM), but in the past couple of years they have done just that. Canada usually beat their opponents with sheer talent. I don't remember many instances when their SYSTEM prevailed, except, maybe WHC05. For the first time in recent memory, Russian players will play one system, a system they are familiar with (everybody except Datsyuk, Kovalev -- if, and Zubov -- if, has played the Bykov's system before), and a system that has been proven to produce results.

So, all in all, I say Russia will be a better team. Who will win? We'll see.

landskronala

08-07-2009, 11:35 PM

No one touches Canada/Russia.

That is not true.

Zine

08-08-2009, 01:10 AM

Well yeah, it's the best rivalry for sure.

One of the best in sports hands down.

What's better in sports then a Canada-Russia tilt with all the marbles on the table?

Nothing, it's amazing to me so many sports buffs don't get it.

Canada-Russia in Hockey is about as good as it gets for us sports nerds.

Being a hockey fan Canada v Russia is my favourite, but there are a good number of rivalries in other sports that are more intense and pressure filled....even at club level.

espo

08-08-2009, 01:31 AM

They aren't better up front, just better on the wings. Centres after Malkin Canada has Russia from first line to fourth, and those 3rd and fourth are going to come into play,especially when Richards starts banging Evgeni around, which he is going to do, just watch.

And the 1 and 2? Crosby and Getzlaf, who i more then feel comfortable putting up against Malkin and Dats any day of the week.

You sit down 10 hockey fans and 5 will prefer our 1-2 combo better then yours, so where does Russia grade out better there?

You have us on the wings and nowwhere else, period.

Long in the tooth on defense? I don't know why you say that, only Pronger and Neidermayer are up there with what we'll bring and from what i saw last year they are still both good enough to give Russia lot's of problems, especially Niedermayer, Bykov would love to have him if he were Russian. He would waltz on to any top six on Team Russia. In case you've been watching too many kHL games the guy still has wings for ankles, he can outskate any Russian d-man you'll bring even at 38.

The only thing i worry about Neidermayer is him getting injured during the regular season, but i can say that about any player who is olympic bound for any team.

and like i said in another thread, i don't know what you'll do with a Phaneuf-Weber pairing on the PK, i doubt super defense selke man Datsyuk is blocking all those shots unless he wants to be half dead by the 3rd period. Good luck Russia, you're going to need it.

I'll give you the team thing, though i don't think thats a garuntee until the games are played, you get no points for paper with me.

As for our "team", 2006 isn't that far back,you make it sound like 1806.I seem to remember taking home the big prize, on the big ice, in front of hostile fans, right in your guys backyard yes?.Think a Steve Yzerman led team isn't going to be at least capable of playing a team game if they get their **** together? And if they do that with the talent they have, you guys are in trouble, don't think you're not.

Who do you think Canada is anyway? some hockey novices? Like we don't know how to play a team hockey game?.

That was almost an insult IMO.

You wouldn't catch me saying crap like that about Russia i can tell you that, what could you possibly have been thinking when you wrote that?

amazing, you would think we have earned that respect at the least, i know Russia has over here with anyone that has half a clue.

As for the individual awards winners you mentioned, give me another year and i'll give you other winners, and they won't be Russian.Thats all cyclical, you don't get any paper points with me for that either.

so yeah, we'll see sentinel. You sure don't have it won in August 2009 I know that.

You're crazy to assume you do, and on questionable reasoning at that. To me and many others they are nothing but premature premises.

ESPO: the question wasn't "who's gonna win?" but "who's gonna have the better team?" That can be answered in two ways.

Talent-wise, Russia is clearly better upfront. Top snipers, top scorers, and all current award winners are Russian. Their stars are all in their prime, they are battle-tested, they are all winners at the NHL/KHL/IIHF level. Canadian forwards are certainly talented, but nobody on their team is on the level of Russia's Big 4 (Dats, Ovie, Kovie, and Malx). Canada is slightly better in their own end, but not by the same margin. Their big D are mostly past their prime. So is Brodeur, and Luongo has never accomplished anything at any serious level. At least Nabokov is now a World Champion.

The real question is: how will all these players gel into one team. Russian team has a history of coming apart and never really playing like a team (Nagano98 was the closest they've ever been to a TEAM), but in the past couple of years they have done just that. Canada usually beat their opponents with sheer talent. I don't remember many instances when their SYSTEM prevailed, except, maybe WHC05. For the first time in recent memory, Russian players will play one system, a system they are familiar with (everybody except Datsyuk, Kovalev -- if, and Zubov -- if, has played the Bykov's system before), and a system that has been proven to produce results.

So, all in all, I say Russia will be a better team. Who will win? We'll see.

espo

08-08-2009, 01:32 AM

Not many.

Russia-Canada hockey tilts are about as good as it gets IMO.

Being a hockey fan Canada v Russia is my favourite, but there are a good number of rivalries in other sports that are more intense and pressure filled....even at club level.

Zine

08-08-2009, 03:14 AM

Who do you think Canada is anyway? some hockey novices? Like we don't know how to play a team hockey game?.

That was almost an insult IMO.

Insulted?:confused:
What do you think happened last olympics?

It’s not disrespect as much as reality -- especially considering Canada is likely returning 12-13 players from a squad that had no team play and couldn’t score a goal to save its life.

Anyways, Russia has the advantage up front; Canada on defense. In goal Nabokov and whoever Canada chooses basically equals out.
Imo, the team that plays the best wins.

espo

08-08-2009, 04:58 AM

now we're really insulted.

Last olympics? what the hell are you guys on about last olympics anyway?

what?

last olympics?

What the hell did you guys finish last olympics?

Have you lost your sanity?

I'm saying this, if you don't respect(and it doesn't sound like you do) how we can build solid Hockey teams, then 2 world championships have gone to your head, just like i've said they did.

Can you imagine, Canada doesn't know how to win in Hockey?.

Are you out of your mind?

Can you be any more insulting?

I agree that the best team wins, the question is, who is that best team?

You and sentinel have given nothing but bravado.

Bravado counts for jack **** though.

espo

08-08-2009, 05:45 AM

This at least i'll agree with.

And Russia better play it's best too, or we'll take them out if they don't.

and vice versa.

the team that plays the best wins.[/QUOTE]

Zine

08-08-2009, 06:39 AM

Settle down. I never said Canada doesn't know how to win hockey.....quit putting words in my mouth.

But what Sentinel said was 100% correct. Canada can play a team game, but unlike Canada WJC, you haven't been nearly as successful in this aspect at olympics level (only 1 medal in 3 olympics). And even when you won gold you looked terrible in preliminary round.
I used last olympics result to illustrate this point and I bring it up because a good portion of that team is returning in 2010, and this time with even more pressure.

What he said about Russia is 100% correct also. Chemistry/effort/team game has traditionally been a BIG problem for us (even with this problem we've managed 2 medals in 3 olympics)......but now it seems to be a strength under Bykov.

Like I said, any result will come down to who plays better.

But keep on being 'outraged' by crazy online Russian supporters. Remember, the internet IS serious business.:shakehead:laugh:

espo

08-08-2009, 09:11 AM

I hardly have to put words in your mouth, your sentences back up everything i am ragging on the last few posts. it's not like anyone can miss it.

You keep talking about past olympics and point out that we won a Gold yet didn't look good in the pre-lim games.

Did we win Gold or not?

It sounds so silly zine.

Do Russian fans actually have the balls to write off a Gold victory?

Has being a failure at all 3 past olympics got you that desperate?

Why don't you go on the Czech board and give them heck for winning nagano with a goalie and little else and the Swedish board with sandbagging a pre-lim game to get a more suited opponent in the medal round if you've got some spare time.

Being as you're picking on Gold medal winners today and all.

I wish i could do the same but unfortunately Russia hasn't won any.

Going by your theory as a hockey fan i can just write Russia off going into next year based on their results the last 3 olympics, since they obviously can't win the big games on the biggest stage.
And the world champs aren't the biggest stage in case that has bypassed you.

I stand by what i've said in your Russian Roster thread, it seems that some of you guys have let two one goal games in the "B" world championships go to your swelled head.

The nerve of you guys, like you can't be beat.

what arrogance, and i thought Canadian fans were bad.

yep, we'll see you guys next year.

Siberian

08-08-2009, 12:40 PM

They aren't better up front, just better on the wings. Centres after Malkin Canada has Russia from first line to fourth, and those 3rd and fourth are going to come into play,especially when Richards starts banging Evgeni around, which he is going to do, just watch.

And the 1 and 2? Crosby and Getzlaf, who i more then feel comfortable putting up against Malkin and Dats any day of the week.

You sit down 10 hockey fans and 5 will prefer our 1-2 combo better then yours, so where does Russia grade out better there?

You have us on the wings and nowwhere else, period.

Long in the tooth on defense? I don't know why you say that, only Pronger and Neidermayer are up there with what we'll bring and from what i saw last year they are still both good enough to give Russia lot's of problems, especially Niedermayer, Bykov would love to have him if he were Russian. He would waltz on to any top six on Team Russia. In case you've been watching too many kHL games the guy still has wings for ankles, he can outskate any Russian d-man you'll bring even at 38.

The only thing i worry about Neidermayer is him getting injured during the regular season, but i can say that about any player who is olympic bound for any team.

and like i said in another thread, i don't know what you'll do with a Phaneuf-Weber pairing on the PK, i doubt super defense selke man Datsyuk is blocking all those shots unless he wants to be half dead by the 3rd period. Good luck Russia, you're going to need it.

I'll give you the team thing, though i don't think thats a garuntee until the games are played, you get no points for paper with me.

As for our "team", 2006 isn't that far back,you make it sound like 1806.I seem to remember taking home the big prize, on the big ice, in front of hostile fans, right in your guys backyard yes?.Think a Steve Yzerman led team isn't going to be at least capable of playing a team game if they get their **** together? And if they do that with the talent they have, you guys are in trouble, don't think you're not.

Who do you think Canada is anyway? some hockey novices? Like we don't know how to play a team hockey game?.

That was almost an insult IMO.

You wouldn't catch me saying crap like that about Russia i can tell you that, what could you possibly have been thinking when you wrote that?

amazing, you would think we have earned that respect at the least, i know Russia has over here with anyone that has half a clue.

As for the individual awards winners you mentioned, give me another year and i'll give you other winners, and they won't be Russian.Thats all cyclical, you don't get any paper points with me for that either.

so yeah, we'll see sentinel. You sure don't have it won in August 2009 I know that.

You're crazy to assume you do, and on questionable reasoning at that. To me and many others they are nothing but premature premises.

Crosby and Getzlaf over Datsyuk and Malkin? That's crazy in my book. Malkin is a little better than Crosby and Datsyuk is better than Getzlaf. Richards banging Malkin, don't make me laugh. I don't think you know a lot about the international hockey of tat level - hitting is not that significant whan you have the fastest hockey you can get. Watch the last finals, the pace was so high that hitting was out of place. Russia's first goal on 08 final came because someone wanted to nail Ovechkin instead of taking the puck away. It's a different game, not your typical Flyers - Pens game where the overall pace is two notches below.

Sentinel

08-08-2009, 12:51 PM

You know, espo, I'm truly starting to wonder how old you are. The way you write is just so juvenile, it's unreal.

We are only comparing Russia and Canada in this thread. And every time but once these two teams met in recent memory, Canada lost.

Award winners change, that's right (with Datsyuk remaining a Selke winner, and Ovie getting Maurice Richards). But we're talking PLAYERS IN THEIR PRIME, RIGHT NOW. Right now, Russian superstars are better than Canadian.

As far as people taking Getzlaf over Datsyuk: in Anaheim, maybe. There is a reason why Datsyuk was nominated for Hart, not Getzlaf. In fact, 2 of 3 Hart nominees were Russian Centers, and you're talking about us being weaker in the center? Whatever.

If Malkin plays against Crosby, I doubt we will hear from The Kid again. Zetterberg ate him up in the PO Finals, and Malkin is even better.

Overall, dude, I suggest you tone it down with insults.

espo

08-08-2009, 01:35 PM

In your opinion.

others have different opinions, you fail to see that.

Cmon sentinel, Malkin-Dats and Crosby-Getzlaf, you think there is a lot to choose from there?

Really?

And here i thought you watched a lot of Hockey.

Silly me.

I guess that explains a lot for me though, thanks for tipping me off on the problem i seem to be having with a few of you guys.

Crosby and Getzlaf over Datsyuk and Malkin? That's crazy in my book. Malkin is a little better than Crosby and Datsyuk is better than Getzlaf. Richards banging Malkin, don't make me laugh. I don't think you know a lot about the international hockey of tat level - hitting is not that significant whan you have the fastest hockey you can get. Watch the last finals, the pace was so high that hitting was out of place. Russia's first goal on 08 final came because someone wanted to nail Ovechkin instead of taking the puck away. It's a different game, not your typical Flyers - Pens game where the overall pace is two notches below.

espo

08-08-2009, 01:47 PM

It's juvenile to see that on paper and in reality Canada and others can beat you?

you make it sound like you can't be beat and others should be ashamed to even consider the possibility.

The only one who sounds juvenile, and uniformed may i add, is you and others that think like you.

talk about being full of ****.

All you do is bring up your opinions and last olympics as some sort of facts, facts that i don't even see as being very relevant considering what we all know was Russias fate at the last 3 olympics.And yes, i consider silver and bronze a failure, you should too.

Since you say Russia is so great you would think silver/bronze is beneath you right? I know what silver and bronze means, somebody whipped your ass.

don't forget that.

I mean all this crap about hart trophy winners and all makes me laugh, just as you can bring that out i can bring out the fact that the guy you rate below Ovechkin and Malkin handed AO his ass to him in the biggest game each of them has ever lined up for this past playoffs. Think Crosby isn't battle tested?

See, i can twist that stuff to make Canada look astounding just as easily as you are doing with Russia.

Like i said, i can't believe the arrogance, it's like you've already won without playing a game.

And then you have the nerve to say other fans can't question it.

where do you guys get the ego anyway?

Oh, and by the way, the only one who seems to be giving insults and lacks proper respect for their opponents here is you.

I mean, you practically said Canada doesn't know how to build winning Hockey teams. Talk about disrespect.

You know, espo, I'm truly starting to wonder how old you are. The way you write is just so juvenile, it's unreal.

We are only comparing Russia and Canada in this thread. And every time but once these two teams met in recent memory, Canada lost.

Award winners change, that's right (with Datsyuk remaining a Selke winner, and Ovie getting Maurice Richards). But we're talking PLAYERS IN THEIR PRIME, RIGHT NOW. Right now, Russian superstars are better than Canadian.

As far as people taking Getzlaf over Datsyuk: in Anaheim, maybe. There is a reason why Datsyuk was nominated for Hart, not Getzlaf. In fact, 2 of 3 Hart nominees were Russian Centers, and you're talking about us being weaker in the center? Whatever.

If Malkin plays against Crosby, I doubt we will hear from The Kid again. Zetterberg ate him up in the PO Finals, and Malkin is even better.

Overall, dude, I suggest you tone it down with insults.

Sentinel

08-08-2009, 02:12 PM

you make it sound like you can't be beat and others should be ashamed to even consider the possibility.

"I make it sound?" Are you putting words into other people's mouths again? That's juvenile.

The only one who sounds juvenile, and uniformed may i add, is you and others that think like you.

Did you mean "uninformed"? :)

All you do is bring up your opinions and last olympics as some sort of facts, facts that i don't even see as being very relevant considering what we all know was Russias fate at the last 3 olympics.

Our OPINIONS? How dense are you? Malkin and Dats are both Hart nominees, and Crosby and Getzlaf aren't -- IT'S A FACT. Crosby was eaten up by Zett, and Malkin wasn't -- IT'S A FACT. Russia beat Canada every time they've met in the past few years and finished higher than Canada in 2 out of 3 Olympics -- IT'S A FACT.

I mean all this crap about hart trophy winners and all makes me laugh, just as you can bring that out i can bring out the fact that the guy you rate below Ovechkin and Malkin handed AO his ass to him in the biggest game each of them has ever lined up for this past playoffs.

You're comparing apples and oranges. We're talking about CENTERS. Crosby did not beat Ovechkin, they never played face-to-face positionally. Penguins beat Capitals. "Crap about Hart winners" makes you laugh? Good for you. Hockey world ranks them. Crosby + Getzlaf are not among the TOP 3 PLAYERS IN 2009. Malkin + Datsyuk ARE. Malkin + Dats >> Crosby + Getz. IT'S A FACT.

This, of course, doesn't mean this is the way it's going to be in the 09-10 season or in the Olympics, but right now: IT'S A DAMN FACT.

See, i can twist that stuff to make Canada look astounding just as easily as you are doing with Russia.

Not even remotely. You have to try harder. It wasn't even Crosby's Stanley Cup PO. Malkin and US defense did all the work in the finals.

Like i said, i can't believe the arrogance, it's like you've already won without playing a game.

Would you please quote me, where I said that? Until then, go back to watching MuchMusic. :shakehead

espo

08-08-2009, 02:25 PM

Are you on with the juvenile thing again?

Read your last post for God's sake.

You're in a dream world, trying to make your opinions come off as gospel.

Can't believe anyone with two cents takes that jazz seriously.

Sentinel says so and so is better so we should all just lay down and agree it is.

I can't wait to play you guys , i wish it was February 2010 right now.

espo

08-08-2009, 02:36 PM

Anyway, i'm through with this for about 2-3 hours.

I'm going to the pub to drink some booze.

I suggest you do the same sentinel.

Siberian

08-08-2009, 03:06 PM

Well, I guess that deserves a poll, doesn't it. http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=670876

Sentinel

08-08-2009, 03:57 PM

You're in a dream world, trying to make your opinions come off as gospel.

WHERE? Dude, I have only listed FACTS. Do you understand? Show me one FACT to the contrary if you can!

Anyway, I'm not wasting my time on you anymore.

espo

08-08-2009, 06:46 PM

Facts, what facts?

your facts and thats about it.

geez, you think what you are saying are facts?

I absolutely can't wait to play you guys.

I think we can take you down.

espo

08-08-2009, 07:44 PM

Zine

08-08-2009, 08:02 PM

ah, you cant listen to all these hf guys.

You'll get about every Russian poster thinking it's his God given duty to vote for Malkin and Dats with most Canadian fans thinking only an idiot would think it's not close and couldn't be bothered to vote.

I mean, Canadian fans are smart enough to know it's close.

I should be able to say the same thing about you, but it doesn't seem like i can.

When do we play you guys again by the way?

[B]OTE=Siberian;20703499]Well, I guess that deserves a poll, doesn't it. http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=670876

Quit being a hypocrite.

With statements you make like like ……And if (Canada) do that with the talent they have, you guys are in trouble, don't think you're not……you’re making the same bold assertions you claim to be offended by. You, therefore, have no justification calling anybody out on this topic.

Russia in trouble if Canada plays up to potential? In trouble???? Have you lost your sanity? You think Russia has no chance?
I mean the nerve of some of you Canadians. The arrogance!!!! I’m insulted!!!!!:sarcasm::rolleyes:

Tim Calhoun

08-08-2009, 08:34 PM

Den

08-08-2009, 08:47 PM

Another one of these threads, jeez :facepalm:

espo

08-08-2009, 09:00 PM

what do you expect between Russian and Canadian Hockey fans den?

didn't i already tell you and others it's one of the best rivalries in sports?

I don't understand that you can't see the hate.

And the hate makes it good, real good.

Depch

08-09-2009, 05:00 AM

This thread has become so funny (some of it has been part of the Canadian roster talk too). :handclap:

Has it gotten on Espos national pride so much that Russia can now arguably take Canada down on paper and is annoyed by it and fires some insults towards the guys saying it. Really It's always felt like some Canadian fans have been doing the same, when having discussions and speculations about rosters. Canada has usually been the clear number one and downtalking everyone else and felt like they are not giving any respect for the others. It's felt the same way, being arrogant and stuff while it's certainly been the case, they have been the favourites. But as everyone knows it's a game of hockey so even the roster doesn't guarantee everything but it sure is fun to talk and speculate about it, if there are some valid arguments, not insults or at least having the tone set to stuff like that. I mostly feel the Russians have been solid and trying to give arguments and opinions while Espo is answering them with fanatism.

My take on the Malkin & Datsyuk vs Crosby & Getlzaf stuff is that Malkin is the Conn Smythe winner and the Russians might be better defensively. Offensive production should be pretty much on the same level and who knows how the injury/operation might affect Getlzaf getting going in to the season. So the pick would be Malkin & Datsyuk, not by a large margin, but I would feel safer with them.

Sentinel

08-09-2009, 11:31 AM

Facts, what facts?

your facts and thats about it.

geez, you think what you are saying are facts?

One more time, you retard:

Russian centers Malkin and Dats are both Hart nominees, and Crosby and Getzlaf aren't -- IT'S A FACT.
Crosby was eaten up by Zett, and Malkin wasn't -- IT'S A FACT.
Ovechkin is a reigning Hart Winner, and Malkin is a reigning Conn Smythe Winner -- IT'S A FACT.
Russia beat Canada every time they've met in the past few years and finished higher than Canada in 2 out of 3 Olympics -- IT'S A FACT.

These are not "opinions" or "emotions" or "considerations" or whatever else. They are FACTS. Not "my facts." Facts, period.

espo

08-09-2009, 01:23 PM

whos the retard? I'd say it's the guy who talks like he knows everything before it happens.

anyone on the ball is going to pick up on that and if they don't they are just another stupid hack like you, who have nothing better in their arsenal then to whip out dated English phrases like "retards'

Even when you are trying to be a hard ass you are come across as a slouching neandrathal.

Your facts are full of ****, let's see how good you are next year, that's the only thing that matters anyway right?

i wonder how cocky and prideful you are when Russia loses.

but i already know how you will deal with that event. I just can't wait for everbody to witness it.

You're going to look exactly like you call me in your last post.

All Hail Russia, they've already won according to sentinel.

but what happens when they don't?

we'll all see how ugly that goes down here, we're already getting the dirty clues.

It isn't pretty and never is.

espo

08-09-2009, 01:28 PM

Are you another one who thinks it's time to give out medals before the games are played?

him and others here, and it's right in the thread, think Canada can't even play team hockey, you don't think a fan shouldn't take exception to that?.

I wouldn't even waste your time with us anyway if i were a Finn fan, i 'd just be worried about finally winning something other then a second and third place badge.

you guys have all the practice in the world at that. You should leave us alone and concentrate on your problems, they are definately considerable.

This thread has become so funny (some of it has been part of the Canadian roster talk too). :handclap:

Has it gotten on Espos national pride so much that Russia can now arguably take Canada down on paper and is annoyed by it and fires some insults towards the guys saying it. Really It's always felt like some Canadian fans have been doing the same, when having discussions and speculations about rosters. Canada has usually been the clear number one and downtalking everyone else and felt like they are not giving any respect for the others. It's felt the same way, being arrogant and stuff while it's certainly been the case, they have been the favourites. But as everyone knows it's a game of hockey so even the roster doesn't guarantee everything but it sure is fun to talk and speculate about it, if there are some valid arguments, not insults or at least having the tone set to stuff like that. I mostly feel the Russians have been solid and trying to give arguments and opinions while Espo is answering them with fanatism.

My take on the Malkin & Datsyuk vs Crosby & Getlzaf stuff is that Malkin is the Conn Smythe winner and the Russians might be better defensively. Offensive production should be pretty much on the same level and who knows how the injury/operation might affect Getlzaf getting going in to the season. So the pick would be Malkin & Datsyuk, not by a large margin, but I would feel safer with them.

espo

08-09-2009, 01:37 PM

You show me where i have said they couldn't.

Do you have to resort to lying to get a dig in?

Has it gotten on Espos national pride so much that Russia can now arguably take Canada down on paper

Mr Kanadensisk

08-09-2009, 06:32 PM

Take it easy Espo, Canada will still have the best team on paper, as they always have. However in such a short tournament this doesn't mean much, all of the top 5 or 6 teams will have about an equal shot at winning the gold.

Incognito

08-09-2009, 06:40 PM

espo

08-09-2009, 08:21 PM

i already know they have an equal shot of winning it, I've said as much havent I?,

my problem is with ******** that don't think we do, sounds like a bunch of disrespecful ******* to me.

Take it easy Espo, Canada will still have the best team on paper, as they always have. However in such a short tournament this doesn't mean much, all of the top 5 or 6 teams will have about an equal shot at winning the gold.

Kman777

08-09-2009, 08:50 PM

One more time, you retard:

Russian centers Malkin and Dats are both Hart nominees, and Crosby and Getzlaf aren't -- IT'S A FACT.

Crosby was eaten up by Zett, and Malkin wasn't -- IT'S A FACT.

Ovechkin is a reigning Hart Winner, and Malkin is a reigning Conn Smythe Winner -- IT'S A FACT.

Russia beat Canada every time they've met in the past few years and finished higher than Canada in 2 out of 3 Olympics -- IT'S A FACT.

These are not "opinions" or "emotions" or "considerations" or whatever else. They are FACTS. Not "my facts." Facts, period.

#1 - That doesn't mean very much IMO. This past year they were nominated, next year they might not be. It's not unrealistic to expect Crosby might win it this year considering the precedent. Players stats fluxuate and I don't believe anyone really thinks Ovechkin is substantially better than Crosby or Datsyuk is substantially better than Getzlaf.

Getzlaf isn't far off, he scored 91 points as a 23 year old, and considering the unrelenting upward trend he's been on since he entered the league, I wouldn't hesitate to bet on him outdoing Datsyuk this year. We also have other players who are arguably better than Getzlaf.

#2 - I think the poster above captured it nicely, Malkin didn't have to deal with the same tight checking Crosby did. Obviously there's a reason Babcock stuck his best checkers on Crosby, up until those final games Crosby had outperformed Malkin in every way.

#3 - See answer one. It's not like there's a trend of the Russian players being better than the Canadian ones in the NHL. This past year the Russians had the upper hand, other years the Canadians have been better.

#4 - Good point, but considering the brutally pathetic team we sent to this past WC, that tournament should not even be considered valid.

The tournaments that reflect the skill of the players our two nations are sending to the Olympics are the ones that have taken place in the last eight years. In those years Canadian players have won:

Olympics - 1 Gold
World Championships - 3 Gold, 3 Silver
World Junior Championships - 5 Gold, 3 Silver

Russia has won:

Olympics - 1 Bronze
World Championships - 2 Gold, 1 Silver, 2 Bronze
World Junior Championships - 2 Gold, 3 Silver, 2 Bronze

Canada's players (the ones who took part in these tournaments are for the most part the same ones who will be taking part in the Olympics) have outperformed the Russians both in quantity and quality of medals at every level in the past eight years. It looks like a trend to me.

In terms of NHL trophies as well...

Number of Hart trophy winners potentially on Canada - 3
Number of Hart trophy winners potentially on Russia - 1

I'll throw the defensive responsibility and leadership arguments out the window and give it to you that Ovechkin is slightly better than any of our three, but one man can't make a team, and I'll take our quantity over your quality.

I left Federov's Hart out because I think we'd all agree he cannot compete at that level anymore.

The same goes for Conn Smythe trophies. Canadian players have taken it three to one over the past six years, but I'll disregard Brad Richards because he probably won't be with the Olympic team. We have more of them on our team than the Russians do, unless you think the play of either Cam Ward or Scott Niedermayer has fallen off enough that their achievement should be disregarded with regards to the Olympics.

Feel free to disagree with any or all of this if you think there's something wrong with it.

Sentinel

08-09-2009, 09:46 PM

Mr Kanadensisk

08-10-2009, 12:33 AM

My argument has been that Russia is better than Canada ON PAPER in offense (wings and center). It's based on FACTS (award nominees, achievements, etc.) and speculations (performances at WHC, etc.). Nowhere did I indicate that Russia should have the Gold handed to them before the tournament begins.

There was a thread earlier this year which addressed the offensive rankings of each country. Russia's forwards are very good, but still number 2. It is based on NHL statistics, and although some may argue there are players in Europe that might make a difference, the margins are great enough that the ranking orders wouldn't change.

2009 Offensive Rankings by Country

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the offensive ranking of the following countries based on total NHL points for their top 9 forwards and top 5 defencemen.

Forwards:
1 CAN (783)
2 RUS (748)
3 SWE (624)
4 USA (594)
5 CZE (563)
6 FIN (439)
7 SVK (318)

Defence:
1 CAN (295)
2 USA (227)
3 SWE (208)
4 CZE (200)
5 RUS (173)
6 FIN (141)
7 SVK (130)

Mr Kanadensisk

08-10-2009, 12:43 AM

And, wouldn't you agree, that the last 4 years matter more than the last 8? Also, leave juniors out of it: it's a whole different game.

The World Championships results are completely meaningless in terms of the Olympic Games.

Here are the WC winners results at the next OG / World Cup

CZE 1st '96 WC, 8th '96 WCup
CAN 1st '97 WC, 4th '98 OG
CZE 1st '01 WC, 7th '02 OG
CAN 1st '04 WC, 1st '04 WCup
CZE 1st '05 WC, 3rd '06 OG

Siberian

08-10-2009, 12:44 AM

There was a thread earlier this year which addressed the offensive rankings of each country. Russia's forwards are very good, but still number 2. It is based on NHL statistics, and although some may argue there are players in Europe that might make a difference, the margins are great enough that the ranking orders wouldn't change.

2009 Offensive Rankings by Country

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the offensive ranking of the following countries based on total NHL points for their top 9 forwards and top 5 defencemen.

Forwards:
1 CAN (783)
2 RUS (748)
3 SWE (624)
4 USA (594)
5 CZE (563)
6 FIN (439)
7 SVK (318)

Defence:
1 CAN (295)
2 USA (227)
3 SWE (208)
4 CZE (200)
5 RUS (173)
6 FIN (141)
7 SVK (130)

Well, if you want to go this way then the top 9 Russian players were scoring 1.082 points per game while Canadians 1.075.

espo

08-10-2009, 02:08 AM

I never said they have no chance, where do you read that?

I said they are in trouble if Canada plays up to it's potential, just like Canada is in Trouble if Russia does.And if both do you are talking about one hell of a close game, not a blowout by either side.

that's what some people here don't seem to see, why i don't know.

I don't who the hypocrite is here but it isn't me.

So i can call anyone of you guys out and have not a shred of guilt about it.

Quit being a hypocrite.

With statements you make like like ……And if (Canada) do that with the talent they have, you guys are in trouble, don't think you're not……you’re making the same bold assertions you claim to be offended by. You, therefore, have no justification calling anybody out on this topic.

Russia in trouble if Canada plays up to potential? In trouble???? Have you lost your sanity? You think Russia has no chance?
I mean the nerve of some of you Canadians. The arrogance!!!! I’m insulted!!!!!:sarcasm::rolleyes:

pouskin74

08-10-2009, 03:57 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the offensive ranking of the following countries based on total NHL points for their top 9 forwards and top 5 defencemen.

Forwards:
1 CAN (783)
2 RUS (748)
3 SWE (624)
4 USA (594)
5 CZE (563)
6 FIN (439)
7 SVK (318)

Defence:
1 CAN (295)
2 USA (227)
3 SWE (208)
4 CZE (200)
5 RUS (173)
6 FIN (141)
7 SVK (130)

same story again here:shakehead after Ovy,Kovy,Malkin,Datsyuk,Semin,Frolov and maybe Kovalev next best russian player coming from KHL .so we need to add here Radulov and Marozov. but as i sayed before. thats old story and i am done here.

espo

08-10-2009, 04:58 AM

facts eh?

Ok., lets look at these 'facts" more closely.

You seem to put so much stock in the past 2 world championships so i'll humour you with some "facts" regarding Russia and Canadas talent among forwards with some numbers from the tournament in 2008. You should at the very least get these numbers if nothing else.

The top 3 point getters in that tournament were all Canadians, hell, even Mike Green on defense equalled Ovechkins numbers.

A d-man matched the vaunted Russian forwards point totals,forwards you claim as "fact" being better then Canada's.

and those guys aren't even likely to be our top line next february.

It blows me away to think you have the gall to say Russias forwards are better then Canadas as facts.

I'm glad you're not a medical practioner of any sort, you would have a lot of people having their leg removed when all they came in for was too see why they are itching so much.

Now, just who is the retard around here?

pfft, facts my ass.

One more time, you retard:

Russian centers Malkin and Dats are both Hart nominees, and Crosby and Getzlaf aren't -- IT'S A FACT.
Crosby was eaten up by Zett, and Malkin wasn't -- IT'S A FACT.
Ovechkin is a reigning Hart Winner, and Malkin is a reigning Conn Smythe Winner -- IT'S A FACT.
Russia beat Canada every time they've met in the past few years and finished higher than Canada in 2 out of 3 Olympics -- IT'S A FACT.

These are not "opinions" or "emotions" or "considerations" or whatever else. They are FACTS. Not "my facts." Facts, period.

Sentinel

08-10-2009, 08:36 AM

pfft, facts my ass.

That pretty much sums it up nicely.

The list of FACTS that I've submitted had very little to do with WHCs. Btw it certainly doesn't matter how many goals you score on Norway and Latvia, if at the end you lose. I'm sure Green would have given up all of his goals, had he had the gold around his neck at the end. But all of this is beside my point. You still haven't found an argument against the FACT that top Russian centers were nominated for Hart and top Canadian ones weren't.

Mr Kanadensisk

08-10-2009, 08:47 AM

Well, if you want to go this way then the top 9 Russian players were scoring 1.082 points per game while Canadians 1.075.

ppg is not as good a measure. Unfortunately every team will have players that miss the OG due to injury. A good ppg player that is regularily hurt is not going to help if he can't play due to injury. Also ppg stats favour those who sit out during injuries instead of playing through them.

Another good example is Crosby and Ovechkin in this years playoffs. Crosby had better ppg stats at the end of the Washington series, but by the end of the playoffs Ovy had a better ppg average.

Mr Kanadensisk

08-10-2009, 08:54 AM

same story again here:shakehead after Ovy,Kovy,Malkin,Datsyuk,Semin,Frolov and maybe Kovalev next best russian player coming from KHL .so we need to add here Radulov and Marozov. but as i sayed before. thats old story and i am done here.

Even with those guys it still wouldn't give Russia enough to move into number one. Also, considering Dallman, a borderline NA minor league defenceman outscored Radulov by 9 points, I think it is a stretch to say that either of them would have scored more than Slava Kozlov or Zherdev last season.

Mr Kanadensisk

08-10-2009, 08:58 AM

That pretty much sums it up nicely.

The list of FACTS that I've submitted had very little to do with WHCs. Btw it certainly doesn't matter how many goals you score on Norway and Latvia, if at the end you lose. I'm sure Green would have given up all of his goals, had he had the gold around his neck at the end. But all of this is beside my point. You still haven't found an argument against the FACT that top Russian centers were nominated for Hart and top Canadian ones weren't.

The WC's are meaningless and based on league statistics Canada is #1.

Depch

08-10-2009, 10:03 AM

Are you another one who thinks it's time to give out medals before the games are played?

him and others here, and it's right in the thread, think Canada can't even play team hockey, you don't think a fan shouldn't take exception to that?.

I wouldn't even waste your time with us anyway if i were a Finn fan, i 'd just be worried about finally winning something other then a second and third place badge.

you guys have all the practice in the world at that. You should leave us alone and concentrate on your problems, they are definately considerable.

No, As I said in the end it all comes down how teams execute the play and overall effort -> "But as everyone knows it's a game of hockey so even the roster doesn't guarantee everything", also that getting so hotheaded (the tone you're writing with and answering with mockery is pretty poor overall, if it's not about that then it's just pure trolling).

Why should I be worried? Haha. Hockey is not everything in life, but it's the best damn sport there is and I enjoy it a lot. I'm not bringing up Finland to this conversation we have and we will always have weaker rosters on the paper. If we do beat up teams with better rosters well, good for us. Besides in the bigger tournaments there are no more time for practise for us than for any other country since most players come from NHL. And if we do have any problems, it's that we are too few as a nation compared to the great Canada & Russia. Not many top end players (actually you might even argue that there are none now, since Selänne is past his prime), but the management, execution, work effort has been great compared to that (Going on your level I could go mocking on Canada with this management & execution stuff (sure Salt lake was an exception), but I don't think it's necessary. We can have good talks even without them. Get the point?-)).

espo

08-10-2009, 12:35 PM

Why aren't wc stats relavant when it comes to point totals yet is totally relevant when it comes to Russia winning the gold?

Your stated claim was that Russia is better then Canada at forwards and that it isn't even debateable.

how do you make this claim? by a one goal win a b tournament in which the top Canadian forwards were the most dominant offensive players?. You do realise hockey is a team game right? that goalies and such come into play and all right? You think the team Canada will put out in vancouver is the one that lost that one goal game in 2008?

How does any of what you say change the fact that getzlaf, Nash and Heatley outplayed your top guys like Ovechkin and Semin? The very same guys you say shows Russia is better up front and it's not even debateable.

And award winners are cyclical, 3 years before crosby was the Hart winner, big deal. .

So if malkin and Ovechkin blow out their knees nexy year and miss 30 games and zach Parise wins the hart does that mean that the U.s clearly has better forwards then anyone else going into Vancouver next year?

two Hart trophie nominees means you clearly have a better squad up front?

I keep asking you for facts that Russia is clearly better and you haven't given me a single one to date.

The only thing i claim is that Canada matches up very nicely with Russia up front and i've given you lots of facts for that. It's just your blind homerism that won't allow you to admit it here.

I've never made the claim that Canada is better at forward and it shouldn't even be debated. But you do concerning Russia.

And that's where you are off base, if you can't see that then i'm just going to assume you don't have a very good grasp of the current hockey stuation regarding talent.

That pretty much sums it up nicely.

The list of FACTS that I've submitted had very little to do with WHCs. Btw it certainly doesn't matter how many goals you score on Norway and Latvia, if at the end you lose. I'm sure Green would have given up all of his goals, had he had the gold around his neck at the end. But all of this is beside my point. You still haven't found an argument against the FACT that top Russian centers were nominated for Hart and top Canadian ones weren't.

Siberian

08-10-2009, 12:56 PM

ppg is not as good a measure. Unfortunately every team will have players that miss the OG due to injury. A good ppg player that is regularily hurt is not going to help if he can't play due to injury. Also ppg stats favour those who sit out during injuries instead of playing through them.

Another good example is Crosby and Ovechkin in this years playoffs. Crosby had better ppg stats at the end of the Washington series, but by the end of the playoffs Ovy had a better ppg average.

Sure it is. It's much better than just points of the top 9 players. First of all there is only about 20 Russian regulars in the NHL and whoever did the stat purposefully chose a number 9. Why 9? Neither Canada nor Russia will have all of the top 9 on their roster. IIt is because 9 gives advantage for Canada over Russia.

So if you want total points for top point getters here you go
Top 3 - 320:283 Russia
Top 4 - 411:371 Russia
Top 5 - 490:458 Russia
Top 6 - 566:541 Russia
Top 7 - 631:623 Russia
Top 8 - 695:703 Canada
Top 9 - 754:783 Canada

Zine

08-10-2009, 01:05 PM

I wouldn't even waste your time with us anyway if i were a Finn fan, i 'd just be worried about finally winning something other then a second and third place badge.

you guys have all the practice in the world at that. You should leave us alone and concentrate on your problems, they are definately considerable.

Now you're slamming Finland too?

For all the (as you say) 'considerable problems' Finland has, they've still beaten you 2 out of 3 times in NHL-olympics and managed to win more medals.:teach:

espo

08-10-2009, 01:14 PM

Yeah, and it's a real drag i have to, but he asked for it.

I normally really like their teams and their fans, usually way more classy then that and 90% of the time way more classy then Russian teams and it's fans.

A pity.

But if Finn fans can give knocks they should be able to take them too.

You seem to still be on that "i can slag your team but you can't slag ours" kick.

Where does that come from anyway?:shakehead

Zine

08-10-2009, 02:18 PM

ppg is not as good a measure. Unfortunately every team will have players that miss the OG due to injury.A good ppg player that is regularily hurt is not going to help if he can't play due to injury.

Problem is you’re assuming players will get hurt for olympics. Whether they do or not is irrelevant; you can’t base a valid ‘study’ on assumptions because they don’t always hold true.
What is needed are concrete facts.

And facts are: when put on an even playing field (points-per-game), Russia’s top 9 outscored Canada’s.

Zine

08-10-2009, 02:23 PM

Westlander

08-10-2009, 02:54 PM

As things stand today, I'd say the Russians make a pretty strong argument to having the best team on paper or at least the best top 6 forwards. But any theoretical superiority will be largely irrelevant once the puck drops. The nature of these tournaments means that in addition to talent, winning requires being able to gel quickly, peak at exactly the right moment, and also probably luck. Once you hit the QF's, it's a matter of winning 3 straight games; The parity among the top 6 or 7 nations means that one poor game likely = a ticket home. (The most glaring example was Sweden in 2002)

Depch

08-10-2009, 02:55 PM

Apparently saying I think Russia has the advantage in the forward department vs Canada was a mockery against Canada (While that was the very name of the thread, questioning and asking for opinions about it and I do think that any team in a long long time is finally challenging Canada on that forward list.). Also I did pay my attention how he is slacking you guys back way more than you did and all you were doing was trying to reason why you guys think why Russia is better than Canada in that department.

So maybe those two were the reasons to start mocking Finnish ice hockey team?-) Hehe. :handclap:

espo

08-10-2009, 03:04 PM

it's funny how you said that about Canada but not about Russia.

You talk about my national pride being hurt yet don't say a damn thing about Russians fans pride when they are going on that it is a "fact" they are the best.

A team that hasn't won a gold medal since the unified team old soviet days going on like they are unquestionably the kings of the world doesn't strike you as quite cocky?

Why is that?

To me it seems you are quite particular in your criticisms.

And i consider that insulting, but go ahead and have it your way if you wish.Just don't try and tell me their fans can rag our team and we are not allowed to take a shot at theirs.

I don't see why there should be two sets of rules.

do you get it now?

if you don't then just ignore what i have to say.

Depch

08-10-2009, 03:25 PM

I didn't say anything about the Russians mocking since they didn't start it. You kept throwing it against them while they were only talking about them being more comfortable with their forward group, just that it looks like you took it as a mockery yourself versus precious Canada. For me it was pretty normal and I've been following such talks for some time when it comes to speculating rosters. Earlier it's been that Canada has been the #1 going to the big tournaments and although it has felt a bit cocky writing everyone else off the gold standard beforehand, maybe it's been rightfully so as it might be the case this time for the Russians, though it is very close. I have absolutely said nothing against Canada, just the opinion that looking currently the Russian top forward lines look very strong. (I did mention I could go to that slacking line with certain issues but it would not help anyone, just create more fuzz around nothing and staying out of the real context of the thread.)

Saying all that, I can't say which one will do better in Vancouver. Right now I'd pick the Russian forwards but on gameday it might be that it's Canada that beats them all, or maybe the Swedes. Who knows, daily form, chemistry, coaching, players executing gameplan, energy guys, goaltending matter at least as much as the roster.

pouskin74

08-10-2009, 06:40 PM

Even with those guys it still wouldn't give Russia enough to move into number one. Also, considering Dallman, a borderline NA minor league defenceman outscored Radulov by 9 points, I think it is a stretch to say that either of them would have scored more than Slava Kozlov or Zherdev last season.

you are still using that useless comparisons (dallman) in wrong place.can i remind you about Ovechkin who had 26 points in 37 games on his last season in Russia and he wasnt even in top 30 by stats but next year in NHL he got 106 points in 81 games and was top 3 ! how is that :sarcasm: your logic dosnt work here but just shows how hypocrite you are. even more , that Radulov made Canadians look like amateurs in 09 WC finals.what should i say now? canadians are loosers?(i do not think that !!) or what..... Radulov got a 58 points (Zherdev 58 points last season) in NHL at 2007/08 season and most definitly he is much better right now than he was a more than year ago. we all saw at WC 09 how "good" Zherdev realy is . no doubt. there is a lot of guys in Russia(russians) who are much better than him.but you put him on Russian TOP 9 list :laugh: get a real life dude instead of talking a rubbish

pouskin74

08-10-2009, 06:41 PM

I didn't say anything about the Russians mocking since they didn't start it. You kept throwing it against them while they were only talking about them being more comfortable with their forward group, just that it looks like you took it as a mockery yourself versus precious Canada. For me it was pretty normal and I've been following such talks for some time when it comes to speculating rosters. Earlier it's been that Canada has been the #1 going to the big tournaments and although it has felt a bit cocky writing everyone else off the goal standard beforehand, maybe it's been rightfully so as it might be the case this time for the Russians, though it is very close. I have absolutely said nothing against Canada, just the opinion that looking currently the Russian top forward lines look very strong. (I did mention I could go to that slacking line with certain issues but it would not help anyone, just create more fuzz around nothing and staying out of the real context of the thread.)

Saying all that, I can't say which one will do better in Vancouver. Right now I'd pick the Russian forwards but on gameday it might be that it's Canada that beats them all, or maybe the Swedes. Who knows, daily form, chemistry, coaching, players executing gameplan, energy guys, goaltending matter at least as much as the roster.

good post.

NyQuil

08-10-2009, 07:31 PM

Does espo have you guys going, or what?

I can't believe you're taking this guy seriously.

Kman777

08-10-2009, 08:12 PM

I'm not going to waste my time on Espo anymore, he is the biggest hypocrite and a demagogue I have ever seen on a hockey board. When he is given FACTS (and nothing but facts) he babbles some demagoguery about refs and how he will gloat when (not even "if," but "when") Canada wins.

KMan777: we can only go by what is available right now: candidates' stats, past performances, and overall trends. OBVIOUSLY everything I've said only pertains to the 08-09 season. It's possible that Getzlaf will outperform Datsyuk in the next season. But for now we only have their previous history to go by.

My argument has been that Russia is better than Canada ON PAPER in offense (wings and center). It's based on FACTS (award nominees, achievements, etc.) and speculations (performances at WHC, etc.). Nowhere did I indicate that Russia should have the Gold handed to them before the tournament begins.

What happened to Russia's silver in Nagano?

And, wouldn't you agree, that the last 4 years matter more than the last 8? Also, leave juniors out of it: it's a whole different game.

As for the Hart winners: I'll go with the teamful of present nominees, rather than past winners. I can't believe you've said that Fedorov can't perform at the Olympic level (did you see that guy in Quebec?) but Pronger and Thornton can. Both have been nothing but liability at the international level. Even St. Louis is not exactly a dominant force (certainly not at the past two WHC finals).

Finally, you call the last WHC team pathetic, what would you call the Russian roster? Decimated by injuries to the point that they could only ice 11 forwards in the final, with Kovalchuk being double-shifted! Of those that played: Radulov injured, Morozov injured, Frolov barely off his flu, and so on, and so forth. Kovalchuk said in an interview that that victory came harder than the one in Quebec (on enemy territory), because of injuries.

Does all this seem logical to you?

Point taken, obviously at this point it is realistic to expect a slightly better performance from the two Russian players than the Canadian ones, because at this point Ovechkin and Datsyuk are both playing a little better. I wanted to make the distinction between “playing better” and “better players”. It seemed to me you were using those facts (this year’s Hart winner let’s say) to say, for instance, that Ovechkin is factually and conclusively better than Crosby. Something I would disagree with. I would agree that at this point he is playing better and the odds are tipped in his favour.

I didn’t include the Nagano Olympics because the performance of the players at that tournament isn’t relevant to this one. Very few if any of the players on those two teams are going to be at these Olympics.

That’s fair to leave the juniors out of it, but I included the past eight years instead of four because several players such as Kovalev (players who could be integral at these Olympics) have not been able to display their competency on the world stage in the last four years. He was at the 2002 Olympics though and he was great there. Therefore I think the past four years are not a true representation of “Russia” or “Canada”. I think 8 years is a good sample that reflects the competency of both countries on the world stage.

I think St. Louis is quite capable of performing at his Hart rate, just look what he did on a pathetic team with an injured Lecavalier this past year. I agree about Pronger, although I don’t believe I mentioned him, he is a useless pylon. Niedermayer definitely hasn’t regressed since his Conn Smythe, Thornton…hard to say. He did do very well at the World Cup. I have no doubt Fedorov can play well at the international level, I just don’t think he’s a “Hart trophy player” anymore. I don’t think you can say you have a Hart winner in him on your team and really mean something by it, because he’s just not the same player he was when he won it. IMO he plays the game at a lower level now, although more qualified people should probably be the judge of that, I missed seeing him in Quebec, I live in Halifax and was watching those games.

That just proves my point even more though. I’m saying the Canadian team was crap, you’re saying the Russian team was sub-par. Both of those teams are nothing like what the Olympic teams will look like, so that tournament gives us very little insight into how the two nations will perform at the Olympics. It’s a credit to the Russian nation that they won, but I don’t think it means very much for the Olympics.

Depch

08-10-2009, 08:28 PM

If we wanna go deeper on the issue, then one thing I have to say is that I have never seen Russia play so good as a team as they have since Vyacheslav Bykov stepped in as a head coach on august 2006. After the olympics (Bykov didn't coach there) in 3 tournaments (not counting in euro hockey tours) they are 2 gold and 1 bronze in World Champs. After the Soviet years the teamplay has been rather poor untill the era of Bykov imo, maybe on the exception with Nagano where they stumbled on superhot Hasek. On the other hand timespan of 3 years with not Olympic/World Cup level tournaments might not be enough for a just opinion there, but the rosters have been pretty good in the last few world champs and teamplay has been very impressive.

This is one thing where Canada has been ahead of Russia always (after Soviet years) just untill very recently. Now it seems this side is very even too. Looking forward to some great matches. :)

Mr Kanadensisk

08-10-2009, 10:15 PM

Sure it is. It's much better than just points of the top 9 players. First of all there is only about 20 Russian regulars in the NHL and whoever did the stat purposefully chose a number 9. Why 9? Neither Canada nor Russia will have all of the top 9 on their roster. IIt is because 9 gives advantage for Canada over Russia.

So if you want total points for top point getters here you go
Top 3 - 320:283 Russia
Top 4 - 411:371 Russia
Top 5 - 490:458 Russia
Top 6 - 566:541 Russia
Top 7 - 631:623 Russia
Top 8 - 695:703 Canada
Top 9 - 754:783 Canada

Nine is significant because not all of the 12 or 13 forwards on a team are there to create offence. If we the offensive stats of the equivalent of a whole team Canada would be way, way ahead.

Mr Kanadensisk

08-10-2009, 11:25 PM

Problem is you’re assuming players will get hurt for olympics. Whether they do or not is irrelevant; you can’t base a valid ‘study’ on assumptions because they don’t always hold true.
What is needed are concrete facts.

Sorry to make an assumption based on historical evidence. I won't bother trying to convince you that the sun wise rise tomorrow.

Mr Kanadensisk

08-10-2009, 11:38 PM

you are still using that useless comparisons (dallman) in wrong place.can i remind you about Ovechkin who had 26 points in 37 games on his last season in Russia and he wasnt even in top 30 by stats but next year in NHL he got 106 points in 81 games and was top 3 ! how is that :sarcasm: your logic dosnt work here but just shows how hypocrite you are. even more , that Radulov made Canadians look like amateurs in 09 WC finals.what should i say now? canadians are loosers?(i do not think that !!) or what..... Radulov got a 58 points (Zherdev 58 points last season) in NHL at 2007/08 season and most definitly he is much better right now than he was a more than year ago. we all saw at WC 09 how "good" Zherdev realy is . no doubt. there is a lot of guys in Russia(russians) who are much better than him.but you put him on Russian TOP 9 list :laugh: get a real life dude instead of talking a rubbish

Since you have mastered rubish and babble I will keep this short.
Comparing Radulov to Ovechkin is ridiculous, they both might be Russian, but it ends there. Radulov is no longer regularily competing againts the best players in the world, so it is unlikely that he has improved as much as you think. Slava Kozlov had 76 points last season and it is a stretch to say Radulov would have had more.

Morozov does well on the big ice, but he really struggles with the physical game on the small ice. It is very unlikely that he could play a full 82 game NHL schedule at this point.

Zine

08-11-2009, 12:21 AM

Sorry to make an assumption based on historical evidence. I won't bother trying to convince you that the sun wise rise tomorrow.

Errr....the sun doesn't rise in some places. Looks like you're back to making more assumptions Mr Kanadensisk.

This is getting too easy.;)

steap

08-11-2009, 02:07 AM

Nine is significant because not all of the 12 or 13 forwards on a team are there to create offence. If we the offensive stats of the equivalent of a whole team Canada would be way, way ahead.
I think it's better to count first 2 scoring lines. 3rd and 4th could be checking lines and don't need to score. :)

Dr Awesome

08-11-2009, 02:33 AM

Another one of these threads, jeez :facepalm:

Hey its only gonna get worse. Best is to sit back have a coke and popcorn and enjoy.

In tournaments like this one bad bounce knocks out teams with any talent but its pointless to say lets let the players to the talking.

jekoh

08-11-2009, 05:56 AM

Mr Kanadensisk

08-11-2009, 07:35 AM

How is Dallman borderline minor league anyway? The guy outscored Jagr! That's almost Norris trophy material! :handclap:

Btw, Morozov outscored Jagr by 20 pts while Jagr outscored Zherdev by 10. That alone probably puts Russia above Canada, not that this ranking has any relevance but still.

You do realize that since 2005 Jagr's scoring totals had been dropping considerably. Based on the trend he would have scored around 50 points this year had he stayed in the NHL. But then again Morozov did outscore an NHL MVP last year which means he must be practically the best player in the world right?:shakehead

Dallman could not hold down a regular spot in an NHL line up, went to the KHL and was arguably the best player in the league last year.

pouskin74

08-11-2009, 08:52 AM

You do realize that since 2005 Jagr's scoring totals had been dropping considerably. Based on the trend he would have scored around 50 points this year had he stayed in the NHL. But then again Morozov did outscore an NHL MVP last year which means he must be practically the best player in the world right?:shakehead

Dallman could not hold down a regular spot in an NHL line up, went to the KHL and was arguably the best player in the league last year.

as i sayed before. you are HYPOCRITE. you are ready to see what you like to see but if not then you just dont see it....

daver

08-11-2009, 11:05 AM

I think it's better to count first 2 scoring lines. 3rd and 4th could be checking lines and don't need to score. :)

You didn't see the SCF this year? Secondary scoring was a major factor in determining the winner.

espo

08-11-2009, 01:24 PM

I don't see why not, i think pointing out that it isn't fact Russia has a better forward set then Canada is very relevant.

If you don't think that's relevant i wouldn't take you seriously.

I admit i let anger at some of what i've been reading get the better of me the last few days and i apoligise here right now to the guys i've pissed off. But they are still relevant issues.

Anyway,Why don't we let the players decide next February who is better, not just take some armchair hockey experts words for it.

it will be them that prove or disprove any of what we believe here.

Does espo have you guys going, or what?

I can't believe you're taking this guy seriously.

steap

08-11-2009, 02:04 PM

You didn't see the SCF this year? Secondary scoring was a major factor in determining the winner.
No, I didn't. :) I don't care about NHL.

Mr Kanadensisk

08-11-2009, 04:53 PM

Errr....the sun doesn't rise in some places. Looks like you're back to making more assumptions Mr Kanadensisk.

This is getting too easy.;)

Your intelligence leaves me speechless.

Mr Kanadensisk

08-11-2009, 04:58 PM

as i sayed before. you are HYPOCRITE. you are ready to see what you like to see but if not then you just dont see it....

If that were true I'd be cheering for your team.

Den

08-11-2009, 06:35 PM

Great thread :handclap:

"God, give me the ability to punch people through TCP/IP"

:yo::yo::yo:

daver

08-11-2009, 06:48 PM

Russia top four forwards > Canada's top four forwards

Canada's forwards > Russia's forwards

Canada's defense > Russia's defense

Canada's goaltending > Russia's goaltending

Canada > Russia

Sentinel

08-11-2009, 08:18 PM

Russia top four forwards > Canada's top four forwards

True. My proof: stats and award nominations for the NHL08-09 seasons.

Canada's forwards > Russia's forwards

Any proofs?

Canada's defense > Russia's defense

Probably true. Although that's debatable. I don't know how Korneev and Atyushov will do against Nedermeyer, but they did pretty well against Green, Boumeister, and Weber. Oddly enough, both Russia's and Canada's defense corps won't change that much from the WHC. Russia will add Volchenkov and Gonchar, and Canada -- Pronger and Nedermeyer.

Canada's goaltending > Russia's goaltending

VERY questionable. If you go by Brodeur's pedigree, you have a point. But also consider his age and the fact that the only time Brodeur faced Nabokov was in Turin. They both underperformed in SC PO 09. Very questionable.

Also:

Russia's coaching staff > Canada's coaching staff. I just don't see how these four horses will effectively pull the same carriage for Canada. Bykov is progressing each year and created a terrific atmosphere in the team. Zakharkin is a theory wiz.

So I wouldn't be so hasty. In fact, Russia is clearly the team to beat this year. Will they win it, I, of course, don't know. That's what the ice is for.

Sentinel

08-11-2009, 11:42 PM

MK7117

08-12-2009, 12:38 AM

PensFanSince1989

08-12-2009, 12:46 AM

86Habs

08-12-2009, 03:09 AM

What I can do right now is compare the proposed lines on both teams, the way I see them. This is all pure speculation, based exclusively on the state of affairs in 2008-2009

Gagne-Crosby-Iginla vs. Ovechkin-Fedorov-Semin

All three Canadians are in their prime. Crosby sees ice well, good puck-carrier, and has a tremendous hockey sense, especially around the net. Doesn't have a good shot, but Iginla does. Ovechkin is the best sniper and the most tenacious player in the world, and he simply cannot be stopped, although his arsenal of moves is limited. Semin is a pure sniper, but a little soft. Fedorov is way old, but Bykov's system (centers pulled back) makes it easier for him, especially considering the short tournament and that he is to endure less stress in Russia next season. His experience and composure are invaluable. They played together for over a year, have a good feel for each other, and compliment each other well. This is why I give the edge to the Russian line.

With all due respect, I don't see how you can give the edge to the Russian 1st line here, considering the fact that Crosby battled this same line to at least a draw in the 2nd round of the playoffs this past year, albeit with Guerin and Kunitz on his wings. He'll likely do a little bit better with Iginla and Gagne/E. Staal on his wings (although I'm not entirely convinced that Gagne is cut out for first line duties on this team). I'm sure this is a matchup Canada would love to have. If Gagne does play on this line he has shown chemistry with Iginal before; Crosby has demonstrated he can develop chemistry and play well with anyone. I actually give the easy edge to Canada here. Different story if Datsyuk gets moved up the 1st line instead of Fedorov.

Heatley-Getzlaf-Nash vs. Kovalchuk-Malkin-Frolov

Both lines from past WHChampionships. Canadian line is certainly menacing, and has been their most efficient. Every player compliments each other well. But how can you not like Chuck and Malkin together? Kovy is on top of his game: he is the most comfortable I've ever seen, after finally winning something. Add LA's go-to-guy, Frolov, and you have a true powerhouse. Edge: Russians.

I'll concede that, although both 2nd lines are indeed excellent, Russia's has the edge based on recent performance Malkin's unstoppable.

Toews-Lecavalier-St Louis vs. Radulov-Datsyuk-Saprykin

Radulov and Saprykin won the WHC09 gold. Add Selke winner / Hart nominee Dats, who can shut down anybody in the world. But Canadian line is just as formidable. If Vinnie stays healthy, he can rock the ice. Toews is a great skater, and St. Louis is a terrific finisher. Edge: even.

I doubt Toews makes the 3rd line, so it will more likely be E. Staal on this line. Sure, Dats can shut-down Vinny, but St. Louis and Staal would still eat Radulov and Saprykin alive. If you're Russia, you would want Dats matched-up against Sid or Getz, wouldn't you? Another matchup that Canada would love to see. Plus, Staal and St. Louis are useful beyond a 3rd line role. Edge: Canada.

Carter-Richards-Staal vs. Zaripov-Tereschenko-Morozov

Both lines are very good: Carter & Richards are hitting their prime. ZM are softer, but they've been together for years and understand each other very well. Still, I give the edge to Canadians.

It will more likely be a Morrow-Richards-Doan/Toews 4th line for Canada, all are pretty versatile and can play throughout the top 3 lines. This line will likely see some ice-time against the top 2 Russian lines in a shut-down / forechecking role, and I look forward to seeing this group play on the smaller ice surface. Easy edge to Canada here as well. Russia simply doesn't have Canada's depth.

Neidermeyer-Boyle vs. Gonchar-Volchenkov. You saw the Pens with and without Gonchar. Russians, easily.
Weber-Bouwmesteer vs. Markov-Tyutin. Russians again. Markov is the most complete D-man in the league. Bouw sucks :)
Keith-Regher vs. Proshkin-Nikulin. Canadians.

Burns, Doan vs. Zubov, Kovalev. Russians.

At least get the Canadian defense pairings reasonably right - Niedermayer and Boyle? Top pairing should be Nieds and Pronger, and I'd take them any day of the week over Gonchar-Volchenkov (admittedly an under-rated pairing). It looks like you aren't a big fan of Pronger, but the guy has proved consistenly (and recently) that he's a top-5 defenceman in the NHL. As has Nieds.

Markov is an excellent defenseman (though not, in my opinion, the most complete d-man in the league), though I'd still take Weber-J-Bo as the 2nd pairing as well. Very slight edge to Markov over J-Bo, while Weber is easily superior to Tyutin in all areas of the game.

Agreed that the shut-down pairing of Keith-Regehr is superior to the Russian 3rd pairing. Their size and defensive capabilities will be relied on heavily against the top Russian lines.

On the extras - likely (hopefully) Toews and Green for Canada. For what they'll bring to the game (Toews - faceoffs/speed/forechecking/defensive awareness; Green - dynamic power-play quarterback, great game-breaking capabilities), I'll take Canada's 13th forward / 7th defenceman. Another nod to Canada's superior depth.

Brodeur, Luongo, Ward vs. Nabokov, Varlamov, Bryzgalov. I give a slight edge to the Canadians, although every time Brodeur and Ward faced Russia, they lost. Still...

Babcock, Ruff, Lemers, Hitchock vs. Bykov, Zakharkin. Everybody knows where I stand here. Edge: Russia..

Special teams:
Powerplays are about even, penalty kills I give to Canada. Russia has a deficit of true defensive defensemen, although Volchenkov, Tyutin, and Markov are certainly quite capable of playing that role.

Goaltending is kind of up in the air - not Canada's primary strength as in past tournaments. While Nabakov and Varlamov are a solid 1-2 and will get the job done, I feel comfortable with Brodeur's track record in the NHL and internationally.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the coaching staff - I think Babcock is the best in the world.

Might disagree with you on special teams - I think Russia's might have the edge given their top-line talent. Canada's penalty-killing looks great - basically, I'd feel comfortable sticking any one of those 13 forwards out on a 5 on 4 situation, as well as 6 of the 7 defencemen (Green excluded). Don't think you can say the same about Russia

Overall:
On paper, Russia is a clear favorite. In reality, this means zilch. Let's hope they meet in the finals.

Maybe not -though I would agree that the "paper" matchups mean very little at this point. The flow of the game (if these two teams ever do meet) will dictate line combinations and matchups. I would agree that Russia has the edge in talent in the top-6 forwards (on paper), and I think that most posters here would agree that Canada has the edge in forward depth and defence. Feel free to disagree with my opinions.

landskronala

08-12-2009, 03:35 AM

Sentinel

08-12-2009, 08:40 AM

With all due respect, I don't see how you can give the edge to the Russian 1st line here, considering the fact that Crosby battled this same line to at least a draw in the 2nd round of the playoffs this past year, albeit with Guerin and Kunitz on his wings. He'll likely do a little bit better with Iginla and Gagne/E. Staal on his wings (although I'm not entirely convinced that Gagne is cut out for first line duties on this team). I'm sure this is a matchup Canada would love to have. If Gagne does play on this line he has shown chemistry with Iginal before; Crosby has demonstrated he can develop chemistry and play well with anyone. I actually give the easy edge to Canada here. Different story if Datsyuk gets moved up the 1st line instead of Fedorov.

First of all, they rarely played together in last playoffs. Ovechkin mostly played with Backstrom. Secondly, Capitals don't play the same style as Team Russia. I don't know if Bykov moves Datsyuk up: he likes to spread the wealth. But if he does, that line should simply KILL whoever they play against.

I doubt Toews makes the 3rd line, so it will more likely be E. Staal on this line. Sure, Dats can shut-down Vinny, but St. Louis and Staal would still eat Radulov and Saprykin alive. If you're Russia, you would want Dats matched-up against Sid or Getz, wouldn't you? Another matchup that Canada would love to see. Plus, Staal and St. Louis are useful beyond a 3rd line role. Edge: Canada.

You are not giving Radulov and Saprykin their due. Radulov was far and away the best player in Nashville before he defected, and with a proper center he can work miracles. Saprykin was always underrated in the NHL (then again, in Phoenix -- who isn't?). They'll play another season together in Salavat, and hopefully will strengthen their chemistry.

It will more likely be a Morrow-Richards-Doan/Toews 4th line for Canada, all are pretty versatile and can play throughout the top 3 lines. This line will likely see some ice-time against the top 2 Russian lines in a shut-down / forechecking role, and I look forward to seeing this group play on the smaller ice surface. Easy edge to Canada here as well. Russia simply doesn't have Canada's depth.

Both Morrow and Doan can't finish for **** (Doan had two superb chances in the WHCF09 and squandered both). I disagree about Russia's depth. In my scenario, every Russian line can score goals (which is what Bykov wants). AK Bars line that I've listed played together for years. Canadians undoubtedly remember Tereschenko's goal in Quebec. He is good defensively and can finish too. If he forgets that terrible blunder against Spezza in WHCF09, he is a threat. Richards, Toews, Stall are probably better than the Russians, but not Morrow and Doan. Again, don't underestimate Morozov. He's got better release than any of them.

More about it later.

daver

08-12-2009, 08:46 AM

True. My proof: stats and award nominations for the NHL08-09 seasons.

Any proofs?

Probably true. Although that's debatable. I don't know how Korneev and Atyushov will do against Nedermeyer, but they did pretty well against Green, Boumeister, and Weber. Oddly enough, both Russia's and Canada's defense corps won't change that much from the WHC. Russia will add Volchenkov and Gonchar, and Canada -- Pronger and Nedermeyer.

VERY questionable. If you go by Brodeur's pedigree, you have a point. But also consider his age and the fact that the only time Brodeur faced Nabokov was in Turin. They both underperformed in SC PO 09. Very questionable.

Also:

Russia's coaching staff > Canada's coaching staff. I just don't see how these four horses will effectively pull the same carriage for Canada. Bykov is progressing each year and created a terrific atmosphere in the team. Zakharkin is a theory wiz.

So I wouldn't be so hasty. In fact, Russia is clearly the team to beat this year. Will they win it, I, of course, don't know. That's what the ice is for.

Are you able to distinguish between an opinion and a fact?

It is not a fact that Russia's top four > Canada's top four. It is a fact that awardwise, Russia's top four was more successful last year. This, in my opinion, makes Russia's top four > Canada's top four. After this, it starts to swing in Canada's favour based on the fact that Canada has more MVP's, Art Ross winners, Rocket Richard winners, and playoff and WHC top performers. Some of these players will be on the third line along with other great 2 way players.

MK7117

08-12-2009, 11:28 AM

Nobody on Canada is on Datsyuk's, Ovechkin's, Kovalchuk's and Malkin's level?

Um, ever heard of Crosby? :help: And I'd put Iginla and Getzlaf very much on Datsyuk's and Kovalchuk's level.

I'd have to disagree, Don't get me wrong, Iginla is great, but I would take Datsyuk over him and Getzlaf right now. In a couple of years I'll definitely take Getzlaf, but now its Datsyuk. So Iginla has taken a couple of steps back, like I said hes still a really really good player. And did you watch the WHC? I didnt watch all the game, but when I saw Russia play, Kovalchuk was just great. He is probably the best sniper behind OV. Even in the gold medal game, when kovy was on the ice there was scoring chances galore.

So Iginla/Getzlaf might be on the same level as Datsyuk/Kovalchuk, but right now I'd for sure be taking the Russian combo in this one.

I might be changing my mind next year, who knows how there regular seasons are going to go. Injuries might occur. But I'm definitely wanting to see a Canada/Russia game in this tourny.

daver

08-12-2009, 12:25 PM

I'd have to disagree, Don't get me wrong, Iginla is great, but I would take Datsyuk over him and Getzlaf right now. In a couple of years I'll definitely take Getzlaf, but now its Datsyuk. So Iginla has taken a couple of steps back, like I said hes still a really really good player. And did you watch the WHC? I didnt watch all the game, but when I saw Russia play, Kovalchuk was just great. He is probably the best sniper behind OV. Even in the gold medal game, when kovy was on the ice there was scoring chances galore.

So Iginla/Getzlaf might be on the same level as Datsyuk/Kovalchuk, but right now I'd for sure be taking the Russian combo in this one.

I might be changing my mind next year, who knows how there regular seasons are going to go. Injuries might occur. But I'm definitely wanting to see a Canada/Russia game in this tourny.

This is where Canada's depth takes over. If it isn't Iginla or Getzlaf, it's Vinny or Heatley, or Staal or Nash, or Thornton. All these guys are or are very close to being Top 10 players and have shown they are capable of leading the scoring in the tournament.

Depch

08-12-2009, 01:50 PM

Indeed Canada has the power to put up much more formidable list of players in depth wise, but the top6 plays what? Approximately 3,5/6 of the game? that leaves around 25minutes to split between the 3rd and 4th line. Not many superstars are able to fit to that role that well or play the energy guy role which is pretty crucial. Need gritty fast guys who will do it all and just skate a lot with energy, guys who don't get rusty while sitting on the bench. Having skill to go with that is great, but who are the guys from Canada and Russia who can play this role?-) At least this has been a good recipy for Finland as we are plenty with those kind of players, they are just lacking the skill that Canada or Russias similar guys to go with can have.

shutupgrapes

08-12-2009, 02:38 PM

I am a fan of fast, skilled, offensive hockey. I love to watch it. That being said, skilled teams like the one the Russians will bring to Vancouver will struggle to beat a defense and goaltending combination like the one Canada will bring. This tournament will be played on NHL ice, and the Canadian coaching staff has basically the best defensive coaches in the world. Every defender on the team is capable of playing an elite shutdown game. Most of these guys have played together before, and players like Niedermayer and Pronger bring an experience factor that is absolutely crucial.

The two teams are basically even at forward, but Canada's defense and goaltending are massive advantages. IMO the best player on either team will be Roberto Luongo. Provided the coaching staff is smart enough to play him, he will be on his home ice and will be playing his best hockey. If you watch the Canucks regularly you know that in this scenario he is capable of playing long stretches of hockey where he is basically unbeatable.

All things considered I believe Canada has to be the favourites on home ice. But anything can happen. I hope to see a Canada-Russia final, it should be epic.

Volcanologist

08-12-2009, 03:16 PM

PensFanSince1989

08-12-2009, 04:05 PM

Clear favourite???:help:

Russia's top 2 lines can compare with Canada's but that's where it ends at forward. Canada's defence and goaltending are easily better.

It's the same guy that claims that Canada doesn't have 1 forward that matches up to Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk or Kovalchuk...

MK7117

08-12-2009, 04:30 PM

This is where Canada's depth takes over. If it isn't Iginla or Getzlaf, it's Vinny or Heatley, or Staal or Nash, or Thornton. All these guys are or are very close to being Top 10 players and have shown they are capable of leading the scoring in the tournament.
Yes, good point. But for Lecavalier he hasn't dominated as much recently. When he went to the cup he was amazing. And the year he won the Richard he dominated. Other then that he has not been a definite top 10 in the league.

Everyone bashing on Heatley's Ottawa situation, but at the WHC and at these Olympics I know for a fact hes going to rack up the goals. Staal dominated these playoffs, he was so good. Nash is always good.

That leaves Thornton, He is good, no doubt about it. But these Olympics if hes someone that will play these games like its the playoffs, theirs no way I'd want him on this team.

But there should be no argument that Canada has the most depth. But will they all come together at these Olympics?

MK7117

08-12-2009, 04:32 PM

PensFanSince1989

08-12-2009, 05:32 PM

Yes, good point. But for Lecavalier he hasn't dominated as much recently. When he went to the cup he was amazing. And the year he won the Richard he dominated. Other then that he has not been a definite top 10 in the league.

Everyone bashing on Heatley's Ottawa situation, but at the WHC and at these Olympics I know for a fact hes going to rack up the goals. Staal dominated these playoffs, he was so good. Nash is always good.

That leaves Thornton, He is good, no doubt about it. But these Olympics if hes someone that will play these games like its the playoffs, theirs no way I'd want him on this team.

But there should be no argument that Canada has the most depth. But will they all come together at these Olympics?

Lecavelier also had an extremely good 2007-2008 season up until he injured his shoulder. Last year, he was still recovering from surgery for much of it and was hampered by coaching, imo.

Sentinel

08-12-2009, 06:15 PM

This is where Canada's depth takes over. If it isn't Iginla or Getzlaf, it's Vinny or Heatley, or Staal or Nash, or Thornton. All these guys are or are very close to being Top 10 players and have shown they are capable of leading the scoring in the tournament.

You can say exactly the same thing about Russia. If it's not Kovy or Malkin or Ovie, than it's Semin (2 beautiful goals in WHC Finals 09) or Morozov or Radulov or whoever else. With Kovalev in the lineup (I still don't think it's gonna happen, but...), they will have a superstar on every line. In fact, there is not a person on those 4 lines (with the possible exception of Zinoviev, who loves to squander chances) who cannot put the puck in the net consistently.

Thornton... when was he ever a game-breaker? When did he even give any performance worthy of his deity-like status? Heatley, yes. Nash, yes (although he is also likely to be remembered for giving Russia a PP in OT in 09). Vinny and Staal? Possibly. But I don't see Russia's depth as inferior to that of Canada. You can't judge Morozov and Tereschenko based on their lack of Art Ross awards. They don't play in the NHL.

Mr Kanadensisk

08-12-2009, 10:19 PM

You can say exactly the same thing about Russia. If it's not Kovy or Malkin or Ovie, than it's Semin (2 beautiful goals in WHC Finals 09) or Morozov or Radulov or whoever else. With Kovalev in the lineup (I still don't think it's gonna happen, but...), they will have a superstar on every line. In fact, there is not a person on those 4 lines (with the possible exception of Zinoviev, who loves to squander chances) who cannot put the puck in the net consistently.

Thornton... when was he ever a game-breaker? When did he even give any performance worthy of his deity-like status? Heatley, yes. Nash, yes (although he is also likely to be remembered for giving Russia a PP in OT in 09). Vinny and Staal? Possibly. But I don't see Russia's depth as inferior to that of Canada. You can't judge Morozov and Tereschenko based on their lack of Art Ross awards. They don't play in the NHL.

Kovalev is not a superstar any more and Morozov and Radulov never were close to superstars. Canada has at least 25 playes that are better than any of those guys.

Sentinel

08-13-2009, 12:18 AM

Kovalev is not a superstar any more and Morozov and Radulov never were close to superstars. Canada has at least 25 playes that are better than any of those guys.

Oh yeah? Then why do fans of Montreal and Nashville miss them so much? Both were best players on two NHL clubs. And Morozov has been the best player of KHL for several years straight. I know you don't care much about KHL, but it's not really that far behind NHL now.

Julia

08-13-2009, 12:23 AM

but it's not really that far behind NHL now.
You are kidding, right? :amazed:

MK7117

08-13-2009, 12:41 AM

Lecavelier also had an extremely good 2007-2008 season up until he injured his shoulder. Last year, he was still recovering from surgery for much of it and was hampered by coaching, imo.

Yeah, sorry I forgot about those injuries. I hope Vinny is all healthy and ready to go this year. A motivated Vinny is one scary ass player.

Sentinel

08-13-2009, 01:33 AM

At least get the Canadian defense pairings reasonably right - Niedermayer and Boyle? Top pairing should be Nieds and Pronger, and I'd take them any day of the week over Gonchar-Volchenkov (admittedly an under-rated pairing). It looks like you aren't a big fan of Pronger, but the guy has proved consistenly (and recently) that he's a top-5 defenceman in the NHL. As has Nieds.

I can't get my D-pairings right, because I don't know them. And neither does anybody else, including coaches at this point. Pronger is way over the hill, he is slow, unreliable, and prone to taking stupid penalties. If you guys learned anything from Turin, you'll keep him off the team. Volchenkov is now in his prime, the best defenseman in Ottawa. Gonchar is the best defenseman in Pittsburgh, and you saw the difference he makes there. I take them over old warhorse Scott and either Boyle or Pronger.

Markov is an excellent defenseman (though not, in my opinion, the most complete d-man in the league), though I'd still take Weber-J-Bo as the 2nd pairing as well. Very slight edge to Markov over J-Bo, while Weber is easily superior to Tyutin in all areas of the game.

Markov >> J-Bo (like I said, Bo is only good for screening his own goalie). Weber > Tyutin, except in the first pass dept. Together, the Russians are better.

Look at it this way. J-Bo, Green, Weber, Burns, Keith -- all played at the last two WHCs. What makes you think they will perform better this time around?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the coaching staff - I think Babcock is the best in the world.

Babcock was just beaten by a rookie coach. Yes, Detroit's injuries played the role, but he had no right to blow 2-0 and 3-2 leads. For comparison purposes, Bykov's lineup at WHC09 was also depleted, but he adjusted his strategy and won.

Might disagree with you on special teams - I think Russia's might have the edge given their top-line talent. Canada's penalty-killing looks great - basically, I'd feel comfortable sticking any one of those 13 forwards out on a 5 on 4 situation, as well as 6 of the 7 defencemen (Green excluded). Don't think you can say the same about Russia

You don't need all 13 men killing penalties. You need 4 or 6. Russia's got 'em, including the reigning Selke winner.

the flow of the game (if these two teams ever do meet) will dictate line combinations and matchups.

I'll tell you right now the likely scenario of the game. Canada will charge from the get-go and probably score a goal. The only way they can succeed is by creating great pressure all over the ice, and this tactic is very energy-consuming. They will run out of energy somewhere by the middle of the 2nd period. If Russia does not falter and lets Canada run away with it, Bykov's troops will then take over. The 3rd period will be all Russia. Of course, there's no way I can tell the end result, but it's a likely path the story will take.

pouskin74

08-13-2009, 02:05 AM

You are kidding, right? :amazed:

no he isnt. fact that you dont have a clue about KHL dosnt mean that NHL is much better.

Zine

08-13-2009, 02:15 AM

Kovalev is not a superstar any more and Morozov and Radulov never were close to superstars. Canada has at least 25 playes that are better than any of those guys.

Morozov and Radulov would be 70-80 point players if they played NHL today.

Julia

08-13-2009, 02:16 AM

no he isnt. fact that you dont have a clue about KHL dosnt mean that NHL is much better.

Actually I have a clue about KHL..is a matter of fact I'm following it as close as I can, which is quiet often..So I do have some knowledge about the league and the players..:)

Julia

08-13-2009, 02:18 AM

Morozov and Radulov would be 70-80 point players if they played NHL today.

But they don't..so I guess we will never know..unless..:sarcasm:

malkins

08-13-2009, 04:13 AM

Ladies and Gentlemen, I do not leave my comments here often, but rather read the threads.

There are a lot of intelligent people on this forums, and you can clearly see that many of you, especially Canadians breathe, eat and exist for hockey. That was never the case in Russia, and the first ever player who brought Russian hokey to the different level is obviously Ovechkin.

Now, Ovechkin isn't better than Crosby or vise verse. Enough of that. If anything, then compare Malkin and Crosby, at least that makes more seance.

What I love about Canadians is their passion for hockey and I applaud to that. This is a great opportunity for all of us to see some of the best Olympics ever. Why can't we simply embrace it and enjoy the rivalry without all this negativity? Isn't that what's hockey is all about? The beauty of the game?

Sentinel

08-13-2009, 08:33 AM

Uhm... because in hockey, just like in any other SPORT, there are losers, winners, and fans. This isn't a rock festival (and even there some people would argue which band blew another one off the stage). We love our teams, we wish they win, and we discuss their chances.

I, for one, feel that Canadians never give other hockey countries the respect they deserve. Every time they treat victory as their god-given right. This is why they are my least favorite team. I'd rather see anybody (Sweden, Czech Republic, Slovakia, even Finland -- although I positively hate their playing style) win over Canada. That is not to say I disrespect Team Canada. You can tell at this point that I don't. They are a formidable opponent. But I wouldn't mind if they lost in the quarters again. Go, Russia! :)

daver

08-13-2009, 10:50 AM

You can say exactly the same thing about Russia. If it's not Kovy or Malkin or Ovie, than it's Semin (2 beautiful goals in WHC Finals 09) or Morozov or Radulov or whoever else. With Kovalev in the lineup (I still don't think it's gonna happen, but...), they will have a superstar on every line. In fact, there is not a person on those 4 lines (with the possible exception of Zinoviev, who loves to squander chances) who cannot put the puck in the net consistently.

Thornton... when was he ever a game-breaker? When did he even give any performance worthy of his deity-like status? Heatley, yes. Nash, yes (although he is also likely to be remembered for giving Russia a PP in OT in 09). Vinny and Staal? Possibly. But I don't see Russia's depth as inferior to that of Canada. You can't judge Morozov and Tereschenko based on their lack of Art Ross awards. They don't play in the NHL.

Semin = Spezza, the guy who needed injuries to get an invite to Team Canada camp

Radulov was outscored by former borderline NHLer's Brendl and Perezhogin this year.

Morozov = 60 point guy in the NHL.

You are seriously putting these guys above a former Hart and Art Ross winner who has the second best PPG since the lockout?

They are simply not on the same level as the guys I mentioned.

daver

08-13-2009, 10:52 AM

Morozov and Radulov would be 70-80 point players if they played NHL today.

Based on what?

espo

08-13-2009, 12:20 PM

No he doesn't, that's the problem.

the problem isn't that he, and rightly so, thinks that Russia will be awesome at forward, it's that he states it as FACT that they are the best without conclusive proof.

What's more amazing is to see some folks back the guy up on that assertion and shake their head that anyone would question it.

Some people boggle the mind.

[QUOTE=daver;20741570]Are you able to distinguish between an opinion and a fact?

Zine

08-13-2009, 01:47 PM

Based on what?

Radulov scored just under 60 points with limited minutes as a 21 year old in his last NHL season. With 2 year's growth, conventional wisdom should tell you he could score 70-80 points being Nashville's go-to winger now (which he was slotted to be before he left).

Morozov's game has taken off the last four years and is now a 1st/2nd line player on national team .
When in the NHL he was good enough only for call-up national team duty but still managed .74 NHL pts/game his last 2 years. Even compared to fellow NHL Russians he's 10x the player he used to be.
Not to mention Heatley and Lecavalier looked like amateurs next to Morozov when they all played with Ak Bars during the lockout.

Sentinel

08-13-2009, 01:47 PM

Semin = Spezza, the guy who needed injuries to get an invite to Team Canada camp

Radulov was outscored by former borderline NHLer's Brendl and Perezhogin this year.

Morozov = 60 point guy in the NHL.

You are seriously putting these guys above a former Hart and Art Ross winner who has the second best PPG since the lockout?

They are simply not on the same level as the guys I mentioned.

First of all, it was Radulov's first year back in KHL. It takes time to adjust, you know? He did pretty well in the NHL. Plus, in games where it matters, he is a far better performer than Thornton, who is probably the biggest PO disappointment in recent NHL history. I take Radu over Joe any day.

Comparing Semin to Spezza is borderline asinine. Semin is a consistent goal-scorer, Spezza -- anything but (he has one important goal to his credit, other than that he's never shown up, not in Ottawa, not at the Worlds). Semin's only problem is that he is on the softer side, but against Canada he did pretty well.

It's funny how you pick on 2 out of 3 people that are the most responsible for handing Canada 2 consecutive silvers. I presume Kovalchuk is next.

Julia

08-13-2009, 03:40 PM

I, for one, feel that Canadians never give other hockey countries the respect they deserve. Every time they treat victory as their god-given right.
Is that a fact or your opinion? :sarcasm:;)

Sentinel

08-13-2009, 05:46 PM

Is that a fact or your opinion? :sarcasm:;)

Observing the predisposition of certain users for treating concrete facts as "opinions," I don't even know what's an opinion or a fact.

Julia

08-13-2009, 05:49 PM

Julia

08-13-2009, 05:51 PM

Observing the predisposition of certain users for treating concrete facts as "opinions," I don't even know what's an opinion or a fact.
Certain users are not even majority of the rest..no need to generalize..:)

Siberian

08-13-2009, 06:04 PM

Radulov has become a premier Russian hockey player. This is so obvious after the way he performed in the last WC. He made a huge stride during the year h played in the KHL. I don't think there should be many doubters of an opinion that Radulov can become a solid 80 point NHL player playing on a first line.

Mr Kanadensisk

08-13-2009, 10:26 PM

Morozov and Radulov would be 70-80 point players if they played NHL today.

Some times I don't know if I should feel sorry for you and give up or try to teach you something. Saying that Morozov would get 80 points today in the NHL is beyond delusional.

The vast, vast majority of players peak in terms of offensive production between the ages of 23 and 26. Also for the vast majority of players the amount of games missed due to injury increases with age. In the prime years of 23 - 26 the most points Morozov ever got in a season in the NHL is 50. In his 7 years in the NHL, from age 20 - 27, he was already missing on average 18 games a season due to injury. To say that now at the age of 33, after 6 years of playing against talent inferior to that in the NHL, he would come back and score 60% more than he did at age 27 is pure b.s. :shakehead

Assuming Morozov is not somehow super human, historical player statistics suggest at this age he would be more like a 30 - 40 point per year player.

Yet Morozov did one things that Russian nationalists love, he walked away from the NHL and returned to Russia. Because of this people like you try to make him out as a way better player than he actually is.

For obvious political reasons he has got to play on the national team's top line along side Russia's best players. If you think that makes him great I suggest you research the career of John Cullen.

This post is a perfect example of how you are blinded by Russian nationalism, and say things that are completely false and nonsensical.

Do you really believe the cr*p you write?

Mr Kanadensisk

08-13-2009, 11:01 PM

I know you don't care much about KHL, but it's not really that far behind NHL now.

From the IIHF's Survey of Players we know that the world's hockey players by country roughly break down as follows:
CAN 37%, USA 31%, CZE 6%, RUS 5%, SWE 4%, FIN 4%, SVK 1%, other 12%

We know these numbers are relatively accurate because they directly correlate to the number of arena's in each country.

Now consider that from these countries 99% of the players from Canada and the US good enough to be in the NHL are in the NHL. For Sweden and Finland it is probably 95%, Czechs and Slovaks maybe 90%.

I'm sure you will say that there are lots of Russians in the KHL who are good enough to be in the NHL. Even if 50% of Russia's players good enough to make the NHL were in the KHL (I don't think that is true, but I'll throw you a bone), that would mean the NHL is drawing from over 90% of the world's best players and the KHL is drawing from ~5% of the world's best.

If you call 5% not far behind 90% then we have a different definition of "not far behind".

Mr Kanadensisk

08-13-2009, 11:49 PM

Radulov was far and away the best player in Nashville before he defected.

In Radulov's last year in Nashville he had 58 points.
J.P. Dupont and Jason Arnot both had 72 points that year, and Erat had only one less point.

Were you serious with this comment?

The truth is there are lots of players in the same age range as Radulov who had much better offensive stats than him. Not only were Kopitar and Kane's stats better, but so were Horton's, Vanek's, Stastny's and Pierre Marc-Savard's.

The fact is that Radulov turned his back on the NHL and went back to Russia, and because of that you think he is a star, not because of his actual accomplishments on the ice.:shakehead

Zine

08-14-2009, 12:05 AM

The vast, vast majority of players peak in terms of offensive production between the ages of 23 and 26. Also for the vast majority of players the amount of games missed due to injury increases with age. In the prime years of 23 - 26 the most points Morozov ever got in a season in the NHL is 50. In his 7 years in the NHL, from age 20 - 27, he was already missing on average 18 games a season due to injury. To say that now at the age of 33, after 6 years of playing against talent inferior to that in the NHL, he would come back and score 60% more than he did at age 27 is pure b.s. :shakehead

Morozov doesn't fall under this scenario.

Morozov's RSL/KHL point totals and level of play increased significantly after the age of 30.....and this is a league that's overall talent level his risen greatly since he initially returned. He's twice the RSL/KHL player he was even 4-5 years ago.

Considering he's proven he can play in NHL, there's nothing to suggest this increase in productivity wouldn't have happened in the NHL either.....especially considering he's easily been better than 60 point NHLers on the national team.

Yep, 70-80 points is about right.

This post is a perfect example of how you are blinded by Russian nationalism, and say things that are completely false and nonsensical.

Do you really believe the cr*p you write?

Name calling, stereotypes, accusations, yak, yak, yak, blah, blah, blah.:shakehead

Zine

08-14-2009, 12:12 AM

From the IIHF's Survey of Players we know that the world's hockey players by country roughly break down as follows:
CAN 37%, USA 31%, CZE 6%, RUS 5%, SWE 4%, FIN 4%, SVK 1%, other 12%

We know these numbers are relatively accurate because they directly correlate to the number of arena's in each country.

Now consider that from these countries 99% of the players from Canada and the US good enough to be in the NHL are in the NHL. For Sweden and Finland it is probably 95%, Czechs and Slovaks maybe 90%.

I'm sure you will say that there are lots of Russians in the KHL who are good enough to be in the NHL. Even if 50% of Russia's players good enough to make the NHL were in the KHL (I don't think that is true, but I'll throw you a bone), that would mean the NHL is drawing from over 90% of the world's best players and the KHL is drawing from ~5% of the world's best.

If you call 5% not far behind 90% then we have a different definition of "not far behind".

I'd say upper tier KHL teams are not far behind NHL.....especially considering these quotes are from a few years ago and KHL is now drawing from global players.

Superleague's level is very close to that of NHL. I used to think that the best Russian players play in NHL but I was wrong: there are lots of players who could settle in perfectly in NHL but stay here. – Paul Gardner
http://english.sport-express.ru/news/13_1244/

The level of play here is just below that in the NHL. I do believe that, on a big ice surface, the top five teams here can play the lower half of the NHL and get good results. - Barry Smith
http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...om-Russia.html

Mr Kanadensisk

08-14-2009, 12:27 AM

I'd say upper tier KHL teams are not far behind NHL.....especially considering these quotes are from a few years ago and KHL is now drawing from global players.

Superleague's level is very close to that of NHL. I used to think that the best Russian players play in NHL but I was wrong: there are lots of players who could settle in perfectly in NHL but stay here. – Paul Gardner
http://english.sport-express.ru/news/13_1244/

The level of play here is just below that in the NHL. I do believe that, on a big ice surface, the top five teams here can play the lower half of the NHL and get good results. - Barry Smith
http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...om-Russia.html

I give up, if these guys say so it must be true, forget the statistics, you've got a better source here. Thank god guys never exagerate to be gracious or sell magazines. I'm sure the reporters question was the Russian hockey equivalent of "Do these jeans make my but look fat?".

Mr Kanadensisk

08-14-2009, 12:30 AM

Yep, 70-80 points is about right.

30 or 40 is more realistic, maybe if Dallman came back with him he might do a bit better. At least your delusions are consistent.

Zine

08-14-2009, 12:33 AM

30 or 40 is more realistic, but at least your delusions are consistent.

....coming from somebody who just called Jagr a 50 point NHLer.:joker:

Mr Kanadensisk

08-14-2009, 12:37 AM

....coming from somebody who just called Jagr a 50 point NHLer.

And Gretzky is now a 5 point NHLer, how on earth could that have happened?

Zine

08-14-2009, 12:40 AM

I give up, if these guys say so it must be true, forget the statistics, you've got a better source here. Thank god guys never exagerate to be gracious or sell magazines.

So a coaches objective is to sell magazines? It all makes so much sense now. :laugh:
wow....just wow.:help:

Thank's for your opinion, but I'll stick to believing NHL coaches rather than some random with an agenda on a message board.

Zine

08-14-2009, 12:44 AM

And Gretzky is now a 5 point NHLer, how on earth could that have happened?

Because unlike Jagr, he's been retired for a decade, and is 48.

try again.

Zine

08-14-2009, 12:58 AM

Even Emery is saying the same thing:

“No,” he said flatly when asked if last season’s Atlant team would have been good enough to make the playoffs in the N.H.L. “We would have finished near the bottom.”

Emery said the level of play in the K.H.L. is somewhere between the N.H.L. and A.H.L., an estimation you often hear. But even a strong K.H.L. team like Atlant would finish in the N.H.L. basement?

“The top few lines on the top teams would be competitive in the N.H.L., but the rest would be, maybe, at the elite level in the American league,” he said. “It’s not close.”
http://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/emery-on-khl-vs-nhl-not-close/?pagemode=print

Is he trying to be polite and sell magazines too?:laugh:

Mr Kanadensisk

08-14-2009, 01:04 AM

Because unlike Jagr, he's been retired for a decade, and is 48.

try again.

It's called getting old, and yes even this happens to the great Jagr, as you have said yourself.

Mr Kanadensisk

08-14-2009, 01:15 AM

So a coaches objective is to sell magazines? It all makes so much sense now. :laugh:
wow....just wow.:help:

Thank's for your opinion, but I'll stick to believing NHL coaches rather than some random with an agenda on a message board.

Good point, I don't know what else to say. By the way who was Barry working for when he said this? Is this the same Barry Smith who coaches in Russia?

R U for real?

Mr Kanadensisk

08-14-2009, 01:18 AM

Even Emery is saying the same thing:

http://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/emery-on-khl-vs-nhl-not-close/?pagemode=print

Is he trying to be polite and sell magazines too?:laugh:

He may not be politically correct but he is one of the few who might give an honest answer if he is in the right mood.

Do you make a lot of money as an embedded journalist, or do you just share your zines with us as a public service?

Zine

08-14-2009, 01:23 AM

It's called getting old, and yes even this happens to the great Jagr, as you have said yourself.

I said he's not the player we remember him as (120 points - best player in game) but that's a far cry from being a player only capable of 50 points.

Money no issue, every NHL team would love to get their hands on Jagr. That wouldn't be the case if he was seen as a washed up player only capable of 50 points.

Zine

08-14-2009, 01:27 AM

Good point, I don't know what else to say.

Pretty much sums up the situation.:nod:

Mr Kanadensisk

08-14-2009, 01:33 AM

I said he's not the player we remember him as (120 points - best player in game) but that's a far cry from being a player only capable of 50 points.

Money no issue, every NHL team would love to get their hands on Jagr. That wouldn't be the case if he was seen as a washed up player only capable of 50 points.

Jagr has stated that if an NHL team wanted him he would come back and play for the league minimum.....he's still in Europe.

Zine

08-14-2009, 01:41 AM

He may not be politically correct but he is one of the few who might give an honest answer if he is in the right mood.

Then that confirms what I'm saying.
Emery said top KHL teams aren't close to play-off level but would finish near the bottom (note: near the bottom..not at the bottom).

Yep, top KHL teams are very close to NHL level.:nod:

Sentinel

08-14-2009, 01:48 AM

30 or 40 is more realistic, maybe if Dallman came back with him he might do a bit better. At least your delusions are consistent.

Last year Green scrored more goals than Getzlaf. Undoubtedly, this makes Green a far better player than Getzlaf. A few years ago a certain Cheechoo scored 56 goals. He must be at least as good as Ovechkin, right? Wait... why isn't he on the Canadian national team?

Also, have you noticed that the game changed somewhat since the 90s and even early 00s? Morozov played at the very low scoring years in the NHL. Since the lockout the game opened quite a bit. His production would undoubtedly increase. It has nothing to do with Russian nationalism. Of which, btw, I have none.

Zine

08-14-2009, 01:49 AM

Jagr has stated that if an NHL team wanted him he would come back and play for the league minimum.....he's still in Europe.

Get your facts correct.
He said he may possibly go back and play only when his contract with Omsk was up.

pouskin74

08-14-2009, 04:22 AM

Jagr has stated that if an NHL team wanted him he would come back and play for the league minimum.....he's still in Europe.

quotes please:sarcasm: Mr.Hypocrite in action again:laugh:

Mr Kanadensisk

08-14-2009, 07:08 AM

quotes please:sarcasm: Mr.Hypocrite in action again:laugh:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01092009/sports/rangers/jagr_thinking_about_nhl_return_149421.htm

"I would just go there and play for them for the minimum salary," Jagr said. "I owe Mario so much because he taught me how to play hockey. If he would want me to, I would come back for the minimum and try to help him. But he doesn't need me. He has good players there."

Jagr, playing in Russia, said today he still keeps an eye on the NHL and the Rangers, and has remained in touch with Tom Renney.

So far, his former coach hasn't asked him to come back to help the struggling club that recently fell out of first place.

"No he didn't. That's why I don't talk to him anymore," Jagr said with his customary laugh.

Mr Kanadensisk

08-14-2009, 07:12 AM

Then that confirms what I'm saying.
Emery said top KHL teams aren't close to play-off level but would finish near the bottom (note: near the bottom..not at the bottom).

Yep, top KHL teams are very close to NHL level.:nod:

The key quote in his statement was “It’s not close.” :shakehead

Mr Kanadensisk

08-14-2009, 07:50 AM

A few years ago a certain Cheechoo scored 56 goals. He must be at least as good as Ovechkin, right? Wait... why isn't he on the Canadian national team?

Kulemin and Fedorov had the same offensive stats last year as Cheechoo and they are invited to the orientation camp, what does that say about Russia's depth?

Also, have you noticed that the game changed somewhat since the 90s and even early 00s? Morozov played at the very low scoring years in the NHL. Since the lockout the game opened quite a bit. His production would undoubtedly increase.

Sykora, Hecht, S Kapanen and Handzus were all drafted the same year as Morozov, played in both era's, and had better stats than him when he was in the NHL.

In the 08/09 season Sykora scored 46 points, Handzus 42 points, Hecht 27 points, and in 07/08 S. Kapanen had a whopping 8 points.

From '97 to '04 when Morozov and Kapanen were both in the NHL Kapanen had way, way, way better offensive stats and now he is not good enough to play in the league any more.

It has nothing to do with Russian nationalism. Of which, btw, I have none.

:biglaugh:
Once again the Morozov legend is one born out of Russian Nationalistic fanatasy, not because of anything he has accomplished on the ice.

Depch

08-14-2009, 07:57 AM

Jagr has stated that if an NHL team wanted him he would come back and play for the league minimum.....he's still in Europe.

Obviously he is only talking about playing for the minimum for the Penguins, not any NHL team and the other option he would like to play was Rangers but obviously wouldn't take that kind of a cut there.

We don't know what the question has been that was presented to Jagr that made him say so, but that indeed is a great way of saying at least how high he thinks of Mario. :)

That being said Selänne got 54 points in 65 games last season and is 2 years older than Jagr. Jagr is arguably the better player so I'm sure he would still get ~70pts in the NHL when being healthy.

Mr Kanadensisk

08-14-2009, 08:50 AM

That being said Selänne got 54 points in 65 games last season and is 2 years older than Jagr. Jagr is arguably the better player so I'm sure he would still get ~70pts in the NHL when being healthy.

It is all speculation, but keep in mind Jagr didn't miss any games in his last three NHL seasons and in 07/08 he scored 71 points. This is 25 points less than he scored in 06/07 and 52 less than he scored in 05/06. Had he stayed would he have levelled off or continued to decline, we will never know.

daver

08-14-2009, 09:00 AM

First of all, it was Radulov's first year back in KHL. It takes time to adjust, you know? He did pretty well in the NHL. Plus, in games where it matters, he is a far better performer than Thornton, who is probably the biggest PO disappointment in recent NHL history. I take Radu over Joe any day.

Comparing Semin to Spezza is borderline asinine. Semin is a consistent goal-scorer, Spezza -- anything but (he has one important goal to his credit, other than that he's never shown up, not in Ottawa, not at the Worlds). Semin's only problem is that he is on the softer side, but against Canada he did pretty well.

It's funny how you pick on 2 out of 3 people that are the most responsible for handing Canada 2 consecutive silvers. I presume Kovalchuk is next.

See poll http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=672387

Zine

08-14-2009, 04:46 PM

The key quote in his statement was “It’s not close.” :shakehead

Do you have a comprehension problem?
Emery is talking about KHL teams making NHL playoffs. If he thinks KHL “is not close” to NHL, he wouldn't say Atlant would finish near the bottom of NHL standings.

Just going by rosters, if 2005-06 Washington Capitals could win 29 games....there's no reason Salavat or SKA couldn't do the same.

Mr Kanadensisk

08-14-2009, 10:17 PM

Do you have a comprehension problem?
Emery is talking about KHL teams making NHL playoffs. If he thinks KHL “is not close” to NHL, he wouldn't say Atlant would finish near the bottom of NHL standings.

Wow, Emery basically calls the KHL terrible and you are trying to use it to make the league look better. Statistically speaking KHL teams have around 5-7% of the talent depth of an NHL team. Not bad, but hardly close.

I have some homework for you. Please research what Sports Media Training is and how athletes and coaches are trained to talk to the press. I'm concerned that you are having difficulty understanding why people don't always give honest answers when being interviewed.
Happy reading!

pouskin74

08-14-2009, 10:18 PM

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01092009/sports/rangers/jagr_thinking_about_nhl_return_149421.htm

"I would just go there and play for them for the minimum salary," Jagr said. "I owe Mario so much because he taught me how to play hockey. If he would want me to, I would come back for the minimum and try to help him. But he doesn't need me. He has good players there."

Jagr, playing in Russia, said today he still keeps an eye on the NHL and the Rangers, and has remained in touch with Tom Renney.

So far, his former coach hasn't asked him to come back to help the struggling club that recently fell out of first place.

"No he didn't. That's why I don't talk to him anymore," Jagr said with his customary laugh.

just read it behind a words, he was saying it with sarcasm and joking in same time :p:
its like Malkin who just says that he was sorry that he didnt played in last WC . tell me that he wasnt happy with Stanley Cup this year. :sarcasm:

pouskin74

08-14-2009, 10:21 PM

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01092009/sports/rangers/jagr_thinking_about_nhl_return_149421.htm

"I would just go there and play for them for the minimum salary," Jagr said. "I owe Mario so much because he taught me how to play hockey. If he would want me to, I would come back for the minimum and try to help him. But he doesn't need me. He has good players there."

Jagr, playing in Russia, said today he still keeps an eye on the NHL and the Rangers, and has remained in touch with Tom Renney.

So far, his former coach hasn't asked him to come back to help the struggling club that recently fell out of first place.

"No he didn't. That's why I don't talk to him anymore," Jagr said with his customary laugh.

i just give you some quotes here.......I have some homework for you. Please research what Sports Media Training is and how athletes and coaches are trained to talk to the press. I'm concerned that you are having difficulty understanding why people don't always give honest answers when being interviewed.
Happy reading!:laugh:

Zine

08-14-2009, 11:12 PM

Wow, Emery basically calls the KHL terrible and you are trying to use it to make the league look better. Statistically speaking KHL teams have around 5-7% of the talent depth of an NHL team. Not bad, but hardly close.

I have some homework for you. Please research what Sports Media Training is and how athletes and coaches are trained to talk to the press. I'm concerned that you are having difficulty understanding why people don't always give honest answers when being interviewed.
Happy reading!

You're saying this right after quoting Jagr?:biglaugh:

You might want to sit down Mr Kanadensisk; you're spinning yourself crazy.:silly:

Zine

08-14-2009, 11:48 PM

From the IIHF's Survey of Players we know that the world's hockey players by country roughly break down as follows:
CAN 37%, USA 31%, CZE 6%, RUS 5%, SWE 4%, FIN 4%, SVK 1%, other 12%

We have 5% of the worlds players, yet:

-40% of NHL top 10 point producers
-50% highest top 10 NHL points/game
-Hart trophy
-Selke trophy
-Conn Smyth

If Canada had only 5% world players you’d be who? The Swiss?...no wait, you can’t beat them with 37% of world players. :laugh:

Well, maybe if you had Kevin Dallman you would've won.:towel:

Siberian

08-15-2009, 12:27 AM

We have 5% of the worlds players, yet:

-40% of NHL top 10 point producers
-50% highest top 10 NHL points/game
-Hart trophy
-Selke trophy
-Conn Smyth

If Canada had only 5% world players you’d be who? The Swiss?...no wait, you can’t beat them with 37% of world players. :laugh:

If Canada produced with the same productivity Russia and Sweden do that would be scary, probably total domination against other teams. Instead in Russia hockey is growing in popularity due to the KHL and recent success at the IIHF level so look out for more top talent out of Russia shortly.

Mr Kanadensisk

08-15-2009, 12:55 AM

i just give you some quotes here.......I have some homework for you. Please research what Sports Media Training is and how athletes and coaches are trained to talk to the press. I'm concerned that you are having difficulty understanding why people don't always give honest answers when being interviewed.

You're saying this right after quoting Jagr?:biglaugh:

I can't believe, you both figure out that quotes in the media aren't a reliable source of information at the same time, maybe there is hope for you.:handclap:

Mr Kanadensisk

08-15-2009, 12:57 AM

We have 5% of the worlds players, yet:

-40% of NHL top 10 point producers
-50% highest top 10 NHL points/game
-Hart trophy
-Selke trophy
-Conn Smyth

If Canada had only 5% world players you’d be who? The Swiss?...no wait, you can’t beat them with 37% of world players. :laugh:

Well, maybe if you had Kevin Dallman you would've won.:towel:

Just as the Americans, Swedes, Fins and Czechs before you, you will rise and you will fall. But Canada will always be #1 baby!

Mr Kanadensisk

08-15-2009, 01:00 AM

If Canada produced with the same productivity Russia and Sweden do that would be scary, probably total domination against other teams. Instead in Russia hockey is growing in popularity due to the KHL and recent success at the IIHF level so look out for more top talent out of Russia shortly.

Good, because since Malkin the Russian prospects have looked pretty lame.

pouskin74

08-15-2009, 05:36 AM

I can't believe, you both figure out that quotes in the media aren't a reliable source of information at the same time, maybe there is hope for you.:handclap:

as i sayed before and i will say it again. you are hopeless hypocrite .... sorry but nothing else i can say.

NB: who is gonna win at 2010 OG ?? i dont know. but there is difinitely 2 main favorites Russia and Canada. they are very even on the paper . however there is only one winner after all and not suprise here if that would be someone else.

therealdeal

08-15-2009, 03:07 PM

Without reading a single post in this thread I'm going to guess that it turned into a giant trainwreck.

Here is the bottom line guys, Canada and Russia are the two superpowers of hockey, who is better? Depends on the day, thats about it. And in hockey, it doesn't even really matter, because its such a complex game that a less skilled team can beat a more skilled team lots of times.

Kuhta

08-15-2009, 03:23 PM

Russia is clearly better at the moment. I can´t believe that canadians won´t admit that.

therealdeal

08-15-2009, 03:31 PM

Russia is clearly better at the moment. I can´t believe that canadians won´t admit that.

A good example of why this thread is a trainwreck. :laugh:

Volcanologist

08-15-2009, 04:11 PM

Russia is clearly better at the moment. I can´t believe that canadians won´t admit that.

There's just no basis for this statement, unless you believe some of the rather silly things put forth by Russian fans in this thread -- like the KHL being comparable in any way to the NHL in terms of quality(despite a quote from a guy who has actually played in both leagues), Radulov and Morozov would be 80 point guys in the NHL, a line of Zaripov-Tereschenko-Morozov is even in the same league as Carter-Richards-Staal, Toews-Lecavalier-St Louis vs. Radulov-Datsyuk-Saprykin comes out "even"...:laugh:

It's not even that I believe Russia has no chance or anything like that. They're good, and could beat Canada. Anything can(and does) happen in a tournament setting. But to look at the depth of talent Canada has at every position and claim that Russia is "clearly better" is crazy.

Sentinel

08-15-2009, 04:37 PM

, Toews-Lecavalier-St Louis vs. Radulov-Datsyuk-Saprykin comes out "even"...:laugh:

But they are! Toews is about on the level of Radulov. He is a better skater, but Radulov is more tenacious in the crease and physical. They are both pretty good shooters. Datsyuk >> Lecavalier, there is just no better one-on-one person / passer / defensive forward of a single man in the world right now. St. Louis is better than Saprykin, but his main asset, speed, has deteriorated since his hey-day. Plus, Saprykin did more in one game against Canada, than St. Louis in two.

Remember that Toews / St. Louis and Saprykin / Radulov played 3 man-games against each other. In those contests the results clearly favor Russian wingers: 0+1 vs 2+2.

Kuhta

08-15-2009, 06:16 PM

But to look at the depth of talent Canada has at every position and claim that Russia is "clearly better" is crazy.

It has nothing to do with the depth of the teams. I think every top6-nation has enough depth to fill the roster with good quality. In tournament it´s alot about front row individuals who can dominate the game. I have seen what 2 superior(in international games) players Selänne and Koivu can do with mediocre material behind them. I think that Russia´s 3 superior players with good team behind them is just too much to Canada´s one superior player with good team behind him.

I hope that Russia plays against Canada at some point in Vancouver.

Kovy4thewin

08-15-2009, 07:45 PM

unlike the Russians our third and fourth line can forecheck and also score lots of goals

Depch

08-15-2009, 08:23 PM

It has nothing to do with the depth of the teams. I think every top6-nation has enough depth to fill the roster with good quality. In tournament it´s alot about front row individuals who can dominate the game. I have seen what 2 superior(in international games) players Selänne and Koivu can do with mediocre material behind them. I think that Russia´s 3 superior players with good team behind them is just too much to Canada´s one superior player with good team behind him.

I hope that Russia plays against Canada at some point in Vancouver.

Sure depth has something to do with it. But when building a team you just gotta remember chemistry. Having 4 #1 lineups from the NHL is not necessarily good thing if the top players have been used to play like 20 minutes a game or more. Top players might go cold and are not as used to keep themselves warm and ready up for the low icetime they would be receiving in the lower lines. Here is where a good energy player might be even better and more effective in his role than a first lineup star playing in the fourth line. At least the attitude is there and player is used to that role too and will surely be 100% when jumping in on the ice. When comparing teams, top 6 is indeed a good way to judge the offence but you can't forget the lower lines either, putting up the best point scorers from NHL there just feels like a bad idea. But this is a reason why I'm not the GM of any international team. :D

But also what has to be taken to consider here is also the fact that hockey players generally are pretty low profile guys and who have good work ethic, near the top at least, but this is a situation which would work as a true test. Also playing in Canadian soil would propably have a positive effect for work ethic even for top guys playing in fourth line.

unlike the Russians our third and fourth line can forecheck and also score lots of goals

For KHL players there is enough motivation (like winning olympic gold wouldn't be enough in itself for either of the teams *G* :D) to prove themselves against the NHL guys and Bykov has gotten a lot out of them and it's shown in the last 3 world championships and presuming Russian players don't work or forecheck is old stuff.

Btw. the closest that we can get some speculation is from 2008 Quebec city finals (Because of the small ice). I put up the rosters in the tournament below and put up the propable guys to be picked to olympic teams, at least what's been discussed in this thread.

Canada:
Offence: Staal, Heatley, Toews, Doan, St-Louis, Getzlaf, Nash // Spezza, Gagner, Chimera, Mayers, Turris, Kunitz, Whitney, Sharp, Roy
Defence: Bouwmeester, Green, Keith // Hamhuis, Burns, Staios, Jovanovski, Giordiano, Pyett
Goalie: // Ward, Leclaire, Garon

Russia:
Offence: S.Fedorov, Kovalchuk, Morozov, Ovechkin, Radulov, Semin, Tereschenko, Zaripov // Afinogenov, Gorovikov, Mozyakin, Sushinski, Zinovjev
Defence: Grebeshkov, A.Markov, Nikulin // Kalinin, Korneyev, D.Markov, Proshkin, Tyutin, Vorobiev
Goalie: Nabokov // Eremenko, Biryukov

Canada 10/23
Russia 12/23

Propables missing; (And this is what we should compare mostly, the above guys already played a very even game where Russia took the edge, but how would it affect when these guys are added and with goalies we should think how much Luongo/Brodeur are improvement over Ward. Of course some players have become better players and some have slowed down from prime. These include Toews, Getzlaf & Green getting better. Heatley, Doan, St-Louis imo slowing down.)

Canada: Crosby, Iginla, Lecavalier, // Niedermayer, Pronger, Weber // Luongo, Brodeur
Russia: Malkin, Datsyuk, Frolov // // Gonchar //

Canada: 18/23
Russia: 16/23

My consensus on this would be that Russia will indeed have a slightly better offense. But Canada will counter it with better overall defence and improve goaltending so it will turn out very even. Having the olympic tournament on Canadian soil pretty much works out as a Canada cup or World cup tournament. There has been 5 Canada cups and Canada has won 4 of them and had silver in 1. There has been 2 World cups and Canada has won 1 and had silver in 1. So that's impressive 5 gold 2 silver out of 7 competitions. The Russian top 6 is arguably better, but looking at this statistic it gives Canada a lot of edge (home ice on best vs best). :)

Hoping to see the best tournament ever and let the speculation continue! :yo: