Flyers Devils flip/flop

Watching the Devils again tonight lead me to thinking how the two teams have changed since the rivalry began a decade ago.

Back then it was the Flyers that depended upon 4 or so players to carry the team on a nightly basis (Lindros, LeClair, Desjardins, Brind'amour) while the Devils had far more depth and were a much better balanced team.

Now it's the Devils that depend on a small core of players (Niedermayer, Elias, Brodeur, Stevens). The Flyers no longer have any star players to carry them, and depend much more on different players chipping in each and every night. A much more balanced team.


This wasn't meant to say that we're now better or anything, just a look at how the teams are now built.

That's true, but it's also partially because there are a whole lot of players on Philly who could be "star players" on NJ. We've always had a core of really important guys, but when they asked to be paid more than their value to the team, they walked.

That's true, but it's also partially because there are a whole lot of players on Philly who could be "star players" on NJ. We've always had a core of really important guys, but when they asked to be paid more than their value to the team, they walked.

Ther Flyers don't have any players as good as Niedermayer or Brodeur.

As long as Elias continues to play at this level that he was at 3 years ago as well, he is better than any Flyer forward.

Whereas before the Devils 3rd/4th lines and 5-6 defenseman were always better than the Flyers, that is no longer the case. Our 3rd/4th lines and 5/6 defenseman are better.

Ther Flyers don't have any players as good as Niedermayer or Brodeur.

As long as Elias continues to play at this level that he was at 3 years ago as well, he is better than any Flyer forward.

Whereas before the Devils 3rd/4th lines and 5-6 defenseman were always better than the Flyers, that is no longer the case. Our 3rd/4th lines and 5/6 defenseman are better.

No argument, but our 3rd/4th lines are better now than they were then. Pandolfo - Madden - Langenbrunner as a 3rd line? That's better than anything we had then. The quality of all teams has increased since then. Plus, this year has been unusual in that a whole lot of players aren't playing to their potential, like Madden, Langenbrunner, and Friesen, and so we've been a whole lot more dependant on Elias. The Flyers don't have the Niedermayers or Elias', but they do have Recchi, Amonte, Roenick, Johnsson, Zhamnov.... a whole lot of players who would be 1st liners on any other team.

Our 5/6 d-men aren't as good as they were then, but this year has been an off year where defensive quality is concerned - we're not nearly as good this year as we have in the past, and I expect that to change quickly in the next few years.

Our 5/6 d-men aren't as good as they were then, but this year has been an off year where defensive quality is concerned - we're not nearly as good this year as we have in the past, and I expect that to change quickly in the next few years.

Um, let's say Stevens and Rafalski come back totally healthy and at 100% ability(and thats a VERY big assumption), does that still make our defense weak? I mean it's the same defense as last year, except with Martin/Hale/Giroux/Brown as the 5/6/7/8. I don't know about the rest of you, but I thought the weak link of last years team was the 5/6 defensemen and I think if the team is totally healthy, the defense is better this year then last.

The Flyers don't have the Niedermayers or Elias', but they do have Recchi, Amonte, Roenick, Johnsson, Zhamnov.... a whole lot of players who would be 1st liners on any other team.

I'm not trying to say that we lack talent. What we lack is the true superstar level player

I'm not trying to say that we lack talent. What we lack is the true superstar level player

I wouldn't call Elias a "superstar" though. I'd call him a very good left wing.

I wouldn't call Elias a "superstar" though. I'd call him a very good left wing.
I would

I wouldn't call Elias a "superstar" though. I'd call him a very good left wing.
I'd call him a superstar. ;)

Elias is a superstar on any team but NJ and Minnesota. He is that good. He has 36 goals this year on New Jersey - imagine what he can do on a team that can score.

Patrick Elias on Colorado or Tampa or Detroit = 90+ point season again, plus a rocket richard trophy. He's only 3 goals back from the Richard on the New Jersey Devils.

Yeah, he's a superstar. Its really too bad, I'd love to see Patrick Elias/Brian Gionta/Scott Niedermayer on an offensive Devils system.

Whereas before the Devils 3rd/4th lines and 5-6 defenseman were always better than the Flyers, that is no longer the case. Our 3rd/4th lines and 5/6 defenseman are better.
I think the Devils can get away with less than superior talent on the bottom lines because of the system and style that they play. In the last ten years we have beaten teams that on paper we shouldn't have.

By the way I tend to agree with you on most, except the third line. Lagenbrunner-Madden-Pandolfo is as good as it gets for a third, while Kapanen-Primeau-Roenick is a solid third I feel that this is a area where better talent doesn't actually mean that their better.

I think the Devils can get away with less than superior talent on the bottom lines because of the system and style that they play. In the last ten years we have beaten teams that on paper we shouldn't have.

I think thats a standard case of Devils talent, quality, and effort being underrated.


On paper, the Rangers should be a dynasty.

I would

I don't know, I'd say Elias is the 4th best left wing in hockey. I don't think 4th best constitutes "superstar" status.

I don't know, I'd say Elias is the 4th best left wing in hockey. I don't think 4th best constitutes "superstar" status.

Name them.

I wouldn't call Elias a "superstar" though. I'd call him a very good left wing.
He has 36 goals, and plays really well in his defensive zone. Pittsburgh Head Coach Ed Olczyk said last week that Elias could be a Hart candidate and could win the Selke too. Chico Resch said Olczyk just offered that opinion with out being asked. So I would say that an NHL coach thinks very highly of Elias.
As for you John the Flyers fan, anytime Philadelphia has had an injury this year, Clarke had gone out and made a trade, including trading players that he had recently acquired. So that result would certainly add to the team’s depth.

I discount your assertion that the Devils don't have depth. The have a really potent top line (Elias-Gomez-Gionta, the EGG line,) and the second line has some players certainly capable of putting the puck in the net (Friesen-Kozlov-Brylin.)
The third line of Pandolfo-Madden-Langenbrunner is one of the premier checking lines in the NHL. They can also take the play to the other end of the ice. Those guys play big in the Playoffs

The fourth line looks as if it will be a mix-and-match line. Turner Stevenson might be a constant at wing, but Hrdina, Larinov or Rasmussen could play at center. Over the last few games in particular, that fourth line has played a tremendous grind-style hockey. They battle for pucks and keep play in the opponent's zone. The guys, especially Marshall, Stevenson and Rasmussen, are really putting forth a fine effort to prove to Pat Burns that they deserve playing time in April, May and June.

If the Devils get Scott Stevens and Brian Rafalski back for the first round, I don't think you have to be so concerned about the Devils defensive core. The will have great starters in Stevens, Rafalski, White, Niedermayer, Martin and one of the following: Albelin, Hale, Giroux or Brown.

Rasmussen has been winning the "give me ice time" contest. He's been great.

Rasmussen has been winning the "give me ice time" contest. He's been great.


Yeah for some reason Burns has played the 4th line often... The first two lines would be good...

Name them.

Naslund, Kovalchuk, easily. I'd say Nash is better too. You could also argue Tkachuk.

Naslund, Kovalchuk, easily. I'd say Nash is better too. You could also argue Tkachuk.


When factoring in all-around game, Elias is better than Nash and Kovalchuk.

By the way I tend to agree with you on most, except the third line. Lagenbrunner-Madden-Pandolfo is as good as it gets for a third, while Kapanen-Primeau-Roenick is a solid third I feel that this is a area where better talent doesn't actually mean that their better.

I disagree with you there, the Devils 3rd line is very good, but I think once Primeau gets healthy the Flyers will have the best 3rd line in the NHL.

I believe that once Roenick gets a few games under his belt he moves back up to a scoring line and the Flyers checking line will be re-united.

Gagne-Primeau-Kapanen

Naslund, Kovalchuk, easily. I'd say Nash is better too. You could also argue Tkachuk.

Would you play any of them on a checking line? Elias has. Would you play any of them shorthanded? Elias does very often. Elias is a better all around player than any of those guys, and in an offensive system I daresay he'd be a better offensive player. Gimmie Elias.

Kovalchuck has 10 more points and 3 more goals on a completely 1 way team. He's also a completely 1 way player.

Elias leads the team in +/-.

Elias is one of the Devil's best PKers.

Elias has the benefit of 2 Stanley Cup rings, and years more experience.

Elias has even outscored anything Kovalchuck has put up so far, with 96 points in one season.

Only thing Kovalchuck has going for him is his age. Sure, if I was building a team, I'd pick Kovalchuck. But if I wanted to play someone in game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals, I'd pick Elias any day.

I disagree with you there, the Devils 3rd line is very good, but I think once Primeau gets healthy the Flyers will have the best 3rd line in the NHL.

I believe that once Roenick gets a few games under his belt he moves back up to a scoring line and the Flyers checking line will be re-united.

Gagne-Primeau-Kapanen
When you get the playoffs you want a defensive line (w/a little offense to it of course) that will be matched against the other teams top line. That role has most of the time gone to the third line, and while Gagne-Primeau-Kapanen is as talented as a third line can get, it doesn't necessarily mean their the best third, for the role of this line is defense, and while the Flyers third might have fine defensive players they can't possibly match against Pandolfo and Madden. Madden has already won a Selke and Pandolfo has to be considered has one of the most under appriciated forwards in the game with his commitment to D. What tilts it into our favor is Lagenbrunner who is a good defensive forward and a big time clutch scorer and the fact that they got it done last year during the cup run, that has to carry weight too. If we were comparing them as a first or second lines I think your G-P-K line would defintely be considered better than ours L-M-P line.

But what it gets down to it is if your facing the Senators in the playoffs and their top line consists of Hossa, Bondra are whoever it is, who would you rather have out there to stop them, ours or yours? Don't get me wrong John, I'm not suggesting that your third couldn't do the job I'm just saying ours is better equipt for it.

Kovalchuck has 10 more points and 3 more goals on a completely 1 way team. He's also a completely 1 way player.

Elias leads the team in +/-.

Elias is one of the Devil's best PKers.

Elias has the benefit of 2 Stanley Cup rings, and years more experience.

Elias has even outscored anything Kovalchuck has put up so far, with 96 points in one season.

Only thing Kovalchuck has going for him is his age. Sure, if I was building a team, I'd pick Kovalchuck. But if I wanted to play someone in game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals, I'd pick Elias any day.
Don't knock a good player to promote another. Elias is my favorite player, but Kovalchuk has more talent than Elias does, and he will get better.

Kovalchuck is a future superstar, but doesn't play a complete game yet. Elias is a current underrated superstar, who does.

Would you play any of them on a checking line? Elias has. Would you play any of them shorthanded? Elias does very often. Elias is a better all around player than any of those guys, and in an offensive system I daresay he'd be a better offensive player. Gimmie Elias.

As long as we are being speculative about play in certain systems, how do you know that in a defensive system, those players don't turn out to be as good defensively as Elias? Remember, defense can be taught, whereas you can't really teach a guy how to have the release of a Kovalchuk or a Naslund. I take all four of those guys over Elias, which is by no means a knock on Elias as those are all great players.

To me it doesn't matter.

Elias = Clutch