Bobby Holik's "Useful-ness" on this team

According to some(*cough*DevilsNJ4*cough*), Holik provides zero help to this team.


Despite the fact that he is the Devils BEST FACEOFF Guy on this team(and doing this on the 4th line, too).... :shakehead

Holik will be here to greet Mr. Avery if he gets anywhere near the crease.

playoff experience.

Holik has snarl and has experience, he can win faceoffs, and get under the skin of the other team. He may take some bad penalties but I'm ok with him on the 4th line.

very useful especially come playoff time.

He doesn't. He skates around doing nothing but take meaningless penalties. OK, he's winning faceoffs and thats great. I like the guy, and yes he is good to have for the playoffs, but why does Rupp have to sit if he's playing decent hockey? LOL dont bash me for this, just my opinion.

Aside from massive Stanley Cup experience and the 57% face-offs won, he also agitates opponents, as was clearly evident today against Philly. He's like Sean Avery without the queerness (and less offensive production).

According to some(*cough*DevilsNJ4*cough*), Holik provides zero help to this team.


Despite the fact that he is the Devils BEST FACEOFF Guy on this team(and doing this on the 4th line, too).... :shakeheadWell he's a little less useful as a winger then. He takes too many penalties but, thats Bobby being Bobby.

Potent quotables.

He doesn't. He skates around doing nothing but take meaningless penalties. OK, he's winning faceoffs and thats great. I like the guy, and yes he is good to have for the playoffs, but why does Rupp have to sit if he's playing decent hockey? LOL dont bash me for this, just my opinion.

So it's not really a case of you hating Holik as it is you hating the fact that Rupp wasn't playing.....if that's the case, THEN SHOULDN'T YOU BE FOCUSING YOUR ANGER AT PANDO???

So it's not really a case of you hating Holik as it is you hating the fact that Rupp wasn't playing.....if that's the case, THEN SHOULDN'T YOU BE FOCUSING YOUR ANGER AT PANDO???

I actually like the lines the way they are. Pando has been playing well and at the moment, Rupp is the odd man out.

He doesn't. He skates around doing nothing but take meaningless penalties. OK, he's winning faceoffs and thats great. I like the guy, and yes he is good to have for the playoffs, but why does Rupp have to sit if he's playing decent hockey? LOL dont bash me for this, just my opinion.

this wouldn't be HFBoards if you didn't get bashed for your opinion:sarcasm:

I actually like the lines the way they are. Pando has been playing well and at the moment, Rupp is the odd man out.

Same here. Pando has had a good two game streak of playing well. Let it be.

Holik rules.

Who would you rather have as our 4th line center?

Who would you rather have as our 4th line center?

patreeeeth cormeeeaayyy obv.

patreeeeth cormeeeaayyy obv.

Imagine a Berube-Cormier-PL3 line in the future? A line that does two things well, murder anyone that moves, and drink fine wine.

Imagine a Berube-Cormier-PL3 line in the future? A line that does two things well, murder anyone that moves, and drink fine wine.

They would all have to dress up like mimes too.

holik over mike rupp anyday.

i think hes great, he seems to be playing better with Madden and just an example today he got under the skin of the flyers alot

The Pando-Holik-Madden line has been playing pretty well since they've been together. Good puck control and cycling down low. They look like they fit with each other... I think they might have played together in 2000. Pando is playing his best hockey of the season right now. Holik got under most of the Flyers skin today, and that is his job. He's not going to sit.

Potent quotables.

http://kendavenport.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/06/16/winner.jpg

They haven't finished much but think of all the chances the 4th line have got in recent games. Keep the 4th line, it's doing great. Rupp didn't really bring that and I would much rather keep Pando in the lineup. Sutter seems to see it too.

Imagine a Berube-Cormier-PL3 line in the future? A line that does two things well, murder anyone that moves, and drink fine wine.

:laugh:

Holik has been a big disappointment this season, you're not paying attention if you think otherwise.

I really liked the way Holik played today against Philly. He was hitting people and getting in Biron's face. The Flyers were going out of their way to go after him. That's what the Devils were missing last year against the Rangers and Avery.

Holik has been a big disappointment this season, you're not paying attention if you think otherwise.

At the start of the season, I had visions of him playing the 4th line role with some power play time. He hasn't got that PP time but he's doing exactly what I expected of him. I did think he would get some more goals though.

Beggers can't be choosers. ;)

At the start of the season, I had visions of him playing the 4th line role with some power play time. He hasn't got that PP time but he's doing exactly what I expected of him. I did think he would get some more goals though.

Beggers can't be choosers. ;)


You sir, need to upate Parise's point totals :)

Holik has been a big disappointment this season, you're not paying attention if you think otherwise.

I think it's the same situation as Sundin; his value won't be seen until the postseason.

I'm not sure what people had in mind for him. Watching the role he played the last few seasons, it was never reasonable to expect more than a few chipped in points here and there. His primary responsibilites were to win critical faceoffs, make room for his linemates, and provide a locker room presence that very few players in the NHL can match. Those are all things Rupp cannot do. He's the guy who every team needs a few of, but whose contributions to winning a Cup never show up in bold numbers on the scoresheet.

Berube-Cormier-PL3
http://images.southparkstudios.com/crap/downloads/preview_image_thumbnail.php?id=4664

Liked the way he swept away Briere like he was a fly. Have no idea how he did not get called. OH Well

Holik has been a big disappointment this season, you're not paying attention if you think otherwise.

What were you expecting from Holik this season? 15 goals?

No, his job is to be a good faceoff winner, which he has done at 57.6% this season (best on the team); provide some size, which he does every night; and have veteran presence, which he represents.

The only real knock on him is that he takes stupid calls that he should know not to take. And he's been taking a good amount of penalties throughout his career, so perhaps that shouldn't be a surprise.

Holik has been a big disappointment this season, you're not paying attention if you think otherwise.

what did you expect from him?:huh:

Yeah its not like were talkin about the 1994-2001 Bobby Holik here. He's 38 now.

He's been more than expected in my mind, by now I figure he'd be an off an on scratch. What's his salary hit, a million?

2.5 mill

funny interviews.

The only problem I have with Holik right now is his cap hit.

If thus were last year's team at this point, then yes he would be useless to a point. But the way this team is going now, one more serious run at the cup, he'll bring the intangibles the team needs in the POs. But I do have to say that at the 38, the dumb penalties do drive me nuts:rant:

I'll tell you this though, a guy like the tanned turtle won't be running around being jerky with no. 16 on the bench...hopefully:naughty:

The only problem I have with Holik right now is his cap hit.

I hear ya, but what can we do. Lou will find a way to help the team:nod:

Bobby is a pest. That's the bottom line. That's why he's here.

He might be a disappointment offensively and he does take dumb penalties occasionally but he also makes the other team tick. Every time the whistle blows when he's on the ice there's a gathering around him. He makes opponents focus on him, just like he did with the Flyers last night.

Bobby Holik is a player for the playoffs. He's not a guy that's going to be effective in a game 49 against the Los Angeles Kings. He's a guy that's gonna drive the NY Rangers or the Philadelphia Flyers nuts in a series in the playoffs.

We've had him before in the playoffs, and we've had guys like him when we were succesfull before, guys like Lemieux, McKay, Peluso, Stevenson etc....you need those type of players.

I hear ya, but what can we do. Lou will find a way to help the team:nod:

He does most of the time :)
Still, I believe 2.5 is way too much, I´d even re-sign him for next year at 1-1.5.

He does most of the time :)
Still, I believe 2.5 is way too much, I´d even re-sign him for next year at 1-1.5.

Pelley might be ready for fourth line duty, and maybe with a guy like PL3 for the snarl. Not sure he'd be back next year, and should they win the cup, I would think definitely not. But if he did resign Id be with you on that number:nod:

Holik has been a big disappointment this season, you're not paying attention if you think otherwise.

So then I guess 95% of the fans here are wrong, and you're right? right? :sarcasm:

What were you expecting from Holik this season? 15 goals?

No, his job is to be a good faceoff winner, which he has done at 57.6% this season (best on the team); provide some size, which he does every night; and have veteran presence, which he represents.

The only real knock on him is that he takes stupid calls that he should know not to take. And he's been taking a good amount of penalties throughout his career, so perhaps that shouldn't be a surprise.

what did you expect from him?:huh:

Actually, yeah, I was expecting about 15 goals, why shouldnt I? Here is his production based on 82 games the last 3 years, as well as this year's projection

09 - 7 goals, 12 points
08 - 15 goals, 34 points
07 - 11 goals, 29 points
06 - 19 goals, 44 points

But that's not the main reason why I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed because he continuously takes stupid (read: SELFISH) penalties that bite this team in the azz. As an 18 year NHL veteran, he should know his ego isnt as important as the team. To be fair, I think at least 2 or 3 times this season he's been given "2 minutes for reputation", but he has also taken a lot of dumb minutes.
Also, he keeps making risky passes right up the middle of the ice that are verboten in Devils' hockey (like the one that cost a goal against the Isles and the one in the 3rd yesterday). Frankly, I would rather the team add a depth center with some offensive skills to take his spot and only play Bobby against a large team like the Flyers. Regardless, he's certainly not worth $2,500,000 in the age of the salary cap.


EDIT:

So then I guess 95% of the fans here are wrong, and you're right? right? :sarcasm:

I'd hardly say "95% of the fans" are happy with Holik this year, not the ones that have watched the entire season. I also dont see why you're patting yourself on the back for starting a thread about the "BEST FACEOFF MAN" after you saw that fact pointed out and featured during a segment on yesterday's broadcast.

Actually, yeah, I was expecting about 15 goals, why shouldnt I? Here is his production based on 82 games the last 3 years, as well as this year's projection

09 - 7 (projected)
08 - 15
07 - 11
06 - 19

But that's not the main reason why I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed because he continuously takes stupid (read: SELFISH) penalties that bite this team in the azz. As an 18 year NHL veteran, he should know his ego isnt as important as the team. To be fair, I think at least 2 or 3 times this season he's been given "2 minutes for reputation" or "2 minutes for being a strong human being" phantom penalties, but he has also taken a lot of dumb minutes.
Also, he keeps making risky passes right up the middle of the ice that are verboten in Devils' hockey (like the one that cost a goal against the Isles and the one in the 3rd yesterday). Frankly, I would rather the team add a depth center with some offensive skills to take his spot and only play Bobby against a large team like the Flyers. Regardless, he's certainly not worth $2,500,000 in the age of the salary cap.

You trade the penalties for his toughness. I mean he's not your typical air tight disciplined devils. He is a pest.

As for the goals his ATOI is around 10 minutes this season. Nearly 6 minutes less than the prior 3, that's 50% less ice time. So one would assume the fact that he is on pace to produce ~50% less points would make sense.

I would be more pissed about the cap hit if it was for more than a year. If the Rangers get Avery back, you'll see the value of Holik if they meet in the playoffs.

As for the goals his ATOI is around 10 minutes this season. Nearly 6 minutes less than the prior 3, that's 50% less ice time. So one would assume the fact that he is on pace to produce ~50% less points would make sense.

The ATOI is a very good point, but even if you do make that adjustment, he's still fairly well below the extected points production. Regardless though, as I mentioned above, offense isnt the main thing I'm concerned with. I simply do not see how anyone can make the argument that he is worth $2.5M to the salary cap. If he wanted to resign for $1M or $1.5M, I'd be happy to have his leadership next year, but I woulndt pay him $2.5M.

I certainly wouldn't call a lot of Holik's penalties "selfish" penalties. Selfish penalties are when some dbag is giving you ****, hacking at you, and you turn around and hack him back because he pissed you off. Holik's penalties are from him constantly trying to be that dbag that gets people to take selfish penalties. He does it a lot, and occasionally gets called for it.

Whatever, I'm fine with his play this season.

The ATOI is a very good point, but even if you do make that adjustment, he's still fairly well below the extected points production. Regardless though, as I mentioned above, offense isnt the main thing I'm concerned with. I simply do not see how anyone can make the argument that he is worth $2.5M to the salary cap. If he wanted to resign for $1M or $1.5M, I'd be happy to have his leadership next year, but I woulndt pay him $2.5M.

Are you simply not looking at the fact that other teams were in the bidding for Holik? Obviously knowing what the Devils know now they'd go back and adjust the price. But at the beginning of the season teams were probably offering him around the 2-3 million range.

Having said that, I think after his production this year, his price will be re-adjusted in the offseason to the tune of ~1 million. Rightfully so.

I certainly wouldn't call a lot of Holik's penalties "selfish" penalties. Selfish penalties are when some dbag is giving you ****, hacking at you, and you turn around and hack him back because he pissed you off.

He has several of the above, as well as the crosscheck a guy after the whistle blows and pull a guy down with your stick 38 zip codes away from the play - variety of penalties.

Are you simply not looking at the fact that other teams were in the bidding for Holik? Obviously knowing what the Devils know now they'd go back and adjust the price. But at the beginning of the season teams were probably offering him around the 2-3 million range.

Having said that, I think after his production this year, his price will be re-adjusted in the offseason to the tune of ~1 million. Rightfully so.

Well, it's not important to me what did or did not affect his price, I'm just saying I dont think he's worth it. But yes, I would be fine with him at $1M or $1.5M, as long as he's fine knowing he's not a "guaranteed starting player" at this point of his career.

He has several of the above, as well as the crosscheck a guy after the whistle blows and pull a guy down with your stick 38 zip codes away from the play - variety of penalties.



Well, it's not important to me what did or did not affect his price, I'm just saying I dont think he's worth it. But yes, I would be fine with him at $1M or $1.5M, as long as he's fine knowing he's not a "guaranteed starting player" at this point of his career.

It should be important because we are looking at 'what he is worth now' (not 2.5 million) vs. 'what he was worth in the previous offseason' (maybe 2.5 million) vs. 'what he is worth this offseason' (not 2.5 million).

Holik's hit on Asham yesterday was worth $2 million alone; I say that leaves him at 500k for the rest of the season.

Bobby is overpriced and takes bad penalties, that much is true.

And with raises going to folks like Johnny Oduya next season, I cannot see him fitting under the cap unless he cuts his salary by 50%, or more, so this may be our last hurrah with Holik-enstein.

But this team needed to get bigger, stronger and chippier in order to be successful for the long grind of the season and into the playoffs, along with continuing to do all the other things we do consistently in our team concept (a strong back check, for example), and Holik really helps in that regard.

And it is my belief that a big reason why Travis Zajac has shown such massive improvement on his face-offs, a key element in his overall renaissance this season, is having Bobby Holik to line up against at practice. And those Zajac face off numbers, where he has become a total stud, have helped both Parise and Langenbrunner have career years, as well.

The Bobby Holik "Butterfly Effect", if you will.

This team has always won as a result of a few key "character guys", and that role is being filled by Bobby this season to noticeable effect, despite his disappointing numbers.

I'd hardly say "95% of the fans" are happy with Holik this year, not the ones that have watched the entire season. I also dont see why you're patting yourself on the back for starting a thread about the "BEST FACEOFF MAN" after you saw that fact pointed out and featured during a segment on yesterday's broadcast.

I started this thread 'cause someone kept downplaying Holik's value to this team (and no, that wasn't you)...

And I had no clue that Holik was the Devil's best Faceoff man until I saw that stat on TV. I mean....I always thought it would be Madden or Zajac or some one else...

I was actually surprised at how good he's been....And why not "pat myself on the back" for seeing something that just further proves Holik's value to this team this year....

You're just ticked that Bobby isn't the useless slug you make him out to be.....

You want Rupp in over Holik? You're out of your mind.

There's something about watching a guy get KTFO in a Devils jersey that doesn't sit well with me.

The last thing before getting KO'd that I remember Rupp doing, is clanking the post on a breakaway. The guy can't work the boards, can't shoot the puck, can't pass farther than 10 feet away...I must be missing this "Solid Play" from him. Trade him, hell give him away.

Bobby's usefulness just went up a whole hell of a lot, if we play the Rangers in the playoffs at least

Another good example of BG being wrong. Holik has been a great help this season. He's winning faceoffs, and he provides the snarl we need on our lines. Opponents that rolled over us last season have not had as easy a time this year. We added some physical presence back there and Holik is a big part of it. He's also scored some key goals for us when we needed it.

Yes I watched every single game BG, and Holik does take some dumb penalties, but those penalties also put a msg out to the opponents not to mess with us, and usually resulted in our team being fired up and winning.

Another good example of BG being wrong. Holik has been a great help this season. He's winning faceoffs, and he provides the snarl we need on our lines. Opponents that rolled over us last season have not had as easy a time this year. We added some physical presence back there and Holik is a big part of it. He's also scored some key goals for us when we needed it.

Yes I watched every single game BG, and Holik does take some dumb penalties, but those penalties also put a msg out to the opponents not to mess with us, and usually resulted in our team being fired up and winning.

Still with panties in a bunch over Greene I see.

Still with panties in a bunch over Greene I see.

Actually Greene has nothing to do with it. I simply disagree with your illogical assessments over the past year. You've been wrong more often than you've been right.

As I said before, I have no attachment to Greene except for the fact he is a Devil. If he goes to play for another team I'll cheer against him not for him.

But I don't let my bias distort my comments. I call it as I see it most of the time.

I simply disagree with your illogical assessments over the past year. You've been wrong more often than you've been right.

1) About what? Again, please provide instances of things I've "been wrong" about if you're going to say that. Thanks.


2) Tell me how what I've said is wrong in this thread. In the age of the salary cap, you have to evaluate players based on their paycheck, and Holik at $2.5M is a disappointment. I'll make it easy for you by summing it all up in a few sentences:

Bobby Holik's overall play this year is disappointing and not worth $2.5 Million to the cap. He has repeatedly taken dumb penalties that have cost the team, and his offensive production is below that of his historical and recent averages even when adjusted for ATOI.

I simply disagree with your illogical assessments over the past year. You've been wrong more often than you've been right.

Every time you're wrong you say you were just playing devils advocate.

1) About what? Again, please provide instances of things I've "been wrong" about if you're going to say that. Thanks.


2) Tell me how what I've said is wrong in this thread. In the age of the salary cap, you have to evaluate players based on their paycheck, and Holik at $2.5M is a disappointment. I'll make it easy for you by summing it all up in a few sentences:

Bobby Holik's overall play this year is disappointing and not worth $2.5 Million to the cap. He has repeatedly taken dumb penalties that have cost the team, and his offensive production is below that of his historical and recent averages even when adjusted for ATOI.


It is all about the intangables. Just his presence alone has stopped our goalie being run at. Notice the difference between last year and this year? We've gotten alot of snarl back in this team. Part of that is Salvador, but alot of it is Holik too.

2.5 mil is worth that. It is not like he is signed to a multi-year contract. He'll probably be gone next season. Lou had the room and he has made our fourth line look much better than it usually does.

Every time you're wrong you say you were just playing devils advocate.

except I haven't really been wrong. Most of what I post is personal opinion and speculation mixed in with I admit some exaggeration for good effect. But it is one man's opinion. What I don't like is BG's constant bashing of the players on this team. Give it a break. Yes some guys aren't worth what they are getting paid, but I'm sure a lot of teams deal with that. Lou will make the right decisions, I'm sure he knows exactly what people are worth.

BG, please change your name. Seeing Gomez's name makes me throw up in my mouth.

Picking up a composite didn’t hurt Holik’s nose for the net. He used it to bury a Brian Gionta rebound past Martin Brodeur.

“I could score with a broom a lot of times, too,” Holik said. “I’ve got his number.”

LOL

Could you ask for a better fourth liner? Holik brings it all to the table he can score occasionally and watch him score a big goal in the playoffs for us. He also plays great positionally he brings emmense leadership and a desire to Win it all. The man is all about winning and he will do whatever this team needs him to do to make that happen. At this point in his career he is terrific and i bet if we paired him up with elias or parise he could even give us some points but thats not his role. You haters should just become rangers fans or yankees fans cause you expect All stars at every position and dont pay attention to the little things that players do. idiots.

Sometimes it's good to just let a thread die...this is one of those times.

Holik is like our jester.

Sometimes it's good to just let a thread die...this is one of those times.

:nod:

Holik is like our jester.

you mean Jeter :laugh: