Devils by Time On Ice/Game

Forwards:
1. Zach Parise
2. Patrik Elias
3. Travis Zajac
4. Jamie Langenbrunner
5. Brian Gionta
6. John Madden
7. Dainius Zubrus
8. Brian Rolston
9. Jay Pandolfo
10. Brendan Shanahan
11. David Clarkson
12. Bobby Holik
13. Michael Rupp

Defensemen:
1. Paul Martin
2. Johnny Oduya
3. Bryce Salvador
4. Colin White
5. Mike Mottau
6. Andy Greene
7. Anssi Salmela
8. Jay Leach

What's interesting here is that I think this is a very good representation of how Brent Sutter views our team in terms of where different players are on the depth chart. There are a couple players who do relatively poorly considering their ice time - see Dainius Zubrus and John Madden, who in terms of point production don't really do much, so Sutter must see them both as fantastic defensive players or they must have other intangibles that lift them up - while David Clarkson's production has actually been very good relative to his TOI (Clarkson is a very solid player, folks).

Other players, like Brian Rolston, can have their relatively limited production attributed to limited TOI.

Still other players, like Holik and Rupp, whose TOI is limited to about 10:00 per game (while Shanahan gets 14:14), demonstrates how much more highly Sutter thinks of Shanahan than these two. Even though most of it is special teams, it's still worth noting.

As for the defense, I think the order listed is pretty damn close to their actual importance to the Devils. Moreover, if you look at how much time each player gets, and not just the order, it magnifies this: Martin gets 24:31 TOI/G while Oduya gets 21:21, Salvador gets 20:11, and White gets 19:12. Note the huge gap between Martin and everyone else.

After that there's a pronounced drop: Mottau gets 17:59, Greene gets 16:05 (even with his powerplay time bringing up his minutes), Salmela gets 15:10 (not enough games played to really figure out where he actually stands) and Leach gets 14:50.

It's not quite as interesting as the numbers that we saw on the defensemen earlier in the season, but I think TOI is a better way to represent depth charts than any one we can develop from purely subjective means.

Other players, like Brian Rolston, can have their relatively limited production attributed to limited TOI.

Disagree with this part entirely.

Rolston is a mediocre 5 on 5 player. His numbers in Minnesota suggest so, as does his play here. Rolston is suffering from being on a team that gets the least amount of PPs in the league. That combined with the fact that he's on the 2nd PP unit, equals a decline in production.

Rolston is on the 3rd line. That's what accounts for the bulk of his TOI positioning. The reason Madden is #6 instead of 7-9 is because not only is he a PK lock, but he stays out there a long time.

and people think oduya is our number 4 defenseman. he definitley couldnt be our number one as we all saw with martin out but i think when martin is in the line up, oduya is effected the most.

It almost represents a perfect depth chart.

Disagree with this part entirely.

Rolston is a mediocre 5 on 5 player. His numbers in Minnesota suggest so, as does his play here. Rolston is suffering from being on a team that gets the least amount of PPs in the league. That combined with the fact that he's on the 2nd PP unit, equals a decline in production.

Eh you dont think going from playing with Gabby and Demitr to playing with Holik/Clarkson or Madden/Clarkson has anything to do with it?

31 goals last year, 11 powerplay.
11 goals this year, 6 powerplay. Only 5 even strength goals in 42 games? :amazed:

I gotta put some blame on line partners and ice time.

I'm impressed by Mottau's play as of late. Iunno what happened to Zajac either, but ******* it's about time he's playing up to that first round selection potential.

please keep in mind when thinking of Rolston you have to look at the fact that his ankle took alot of time to get back to where it needed to be for him to get regular minutes.

His being so low on TOI and on that line has more to do with his being out of the line up for so long then it does his actual play.

It'll be interesting to see how it changes with sutter putting him with Elias and Gionta more often now. I would assume we could see an increase in his TOI.

Elias and Parise are also the first two on on 4 on 4 plan and also play the most OT time.

Eh you dont think going from playing with Gabby and Demitr to playing with Holik/Clarkson or Madden/Clarkson has anything to do with it?

31 goals last year, 11 powerplay.
11 goals this year, 6 powerplay. Only 5 even strength goals in 42 games? :amazed:

I gotta put some blame on line partners and ice time.

I thought we paid this guy $5 million to be an offensive center piece, not to have to feed off linemates for points.

30 and 37. That's the number of ES points he had his last two years with Minnesota. He was an average ES player there, he's regressed since.

I thought we paid this guy $5 million to be an offensive center piece, not to have to feed off linemates for points.

30 and 37. That's the number of ES points he had his last two years with Minnesota. He was an average ES player there, he's regressed since.
I think he lacks hustle.

Rolston is on the 3rd line. That's what accounts for the bulk of his TOI positioning. The reason Madden is #6 instead of 7-9 is because not only is he a PK lock, but he stays out there a long time.

Eh you dont think going from playing with Gabby and Demitr to playing with Holik/Clarkson or Madden/Clarkson has anything to do with it?

31 goals last year, 11 powerplay.
11 goals this year, 6 powerplay. Only 5 even strength goals in 42 games? :amazed:

I gotta put some blame on line partners and ice time.

That sums it up. Rolston is basically Langenbrunner, just with more speed and a better shot. Put him in Langs spot and watch his production skyrocket from having more ice time and more skilled linemates.

I think Langs is actually better than Rolsoton. His hustle and boards play is what gives him the edge IMO.

That sums it up. Rolston is basically Langenbrunner, just with more speed and a better shot. Put him in Langs spot and watch his production skyrocket from having more ice time and more skilled linemates.

This couldn't be farther from the truth. Both play different games and Langenbrunner is much better suited for that line.

This couldn't be farther from the truth. Both play different games and Langenbrunner is much better suited for that line.

Yeah I have to agree with you here CFD. I think Langenbrunner's physicality alone makes him a better fit for that line. Now if we could get a center For Elias and maybe Rolston on the wing if Gio gets traded or walks next year, I think we can have a fine second line. Although I still dont mind seeing Zubrus up there as the second line center to be honest, even if he doesnt get points he still makes alot of room for Elias and Gio.

I thought we paid this guy $5 million to be an offensive center piece, not to have to feed off linemates for points.

I don't care who the player is if you play with better players you are going to put up better numbers. If Rolston was on a better line with better players his numbers would be much better then they are now.
there are other flaws in Rolston's game which are starting to annoy me and some of us on here but this is about TOI vs. production.

I don't care who the player is if you play with better players you are going to put up better numbers. If Rolston was on a better line with better players his numbers would be much better then they are now.
there are other flaws in Rolston's game which are starting to annoy me and some of us on here but this is about TOI vs. production.

No ****.

The point is that he wouldn't be putting up as much points as Langenbrunner, and I doubt he would be putting up more than Gionta. And he put ups the same ES points as Zubrus does.

No ****.

The point is that he wouldn't be putting up as much points as Langenbrunner, and I doubt he would be putting up more than Gionta. And he put ups the same ES points as Zubrus does.
I don't agree with this. Just watching Rolston on the ice and around the net - he creates chances close in with his really quick wrister, and he creates chances from farther out with his slapper. Give him a big centerman who has quick hands and can score in close in addition to Clarkson and I think you'd find that Rolston is an extremely productive forward on even strength. What he doesn't do well is cycle the puck - that role falls to the other two guys, Rolston's job is simple - get shots off from everywhere. Give him a big center who can stuff home rebounds and a guy like Clarkson who is very underrated when it comes to the cycle, and quality time on hte ice, and Rolston will produce.

He's not ideally suited to the Zajac and Parise line because he isn't great at grinding out long possessions. Rolston is all about finding seams, the ZZ-Pop line is about grinding out chances and finishing them.

I don't agree with this. Just watching Rolston on the ice and around the net - he creates chances close in with his really quick wrister, and he creates chances from farther out with his slapper. Give him a big centerman who has quick hands and can score in close in addition to Clarkson and I think you'd find that Rolston is an extremely productive forward on even strength. What he doesn't do well is cycle the puck - that role falls to the other two guys, Rolston's job is simple - get shots off from everywhere. Give him a big center who can stuff home rebounds and a guy like Clarkson who is very underrated when it comes to the cycle, and quality time on hte ice, and Rolston will produce.

Around the net? I've barely seen Rolston around the net. He rarely works in tight areas and he loses the puck along the boards rather easily.

Rolston is not that great of a producer ES. Look at the numbers I posted before. 30 and 37 ES points. Average.

And where is this big centerman coming from, the sky?

No ****.

The point is that he wouldn't be putting up as much points as Langenbrunner, and I doubt he would be putting up more than Gionta. And he put ups the same ES points as Zubrus does.

you have no quantitative way of proving that his numbers wouldn't be as good if not better. When you compare similar season you'll find that Langs typically has a higher or simliar percentage of points on the PP then Rolston. So you saying that he isn't any good 5-5 and wouldn't put up as many points as Langs is more opinion then fact.

Around the net? I've barely seen Rolston around the net. He rarely works in tight areas and he loses the puck along the boards rather easily.

Rolston is not that great of a producer ES. Look at the numbers I posted before. 30 and 37 ES points. Average.

And where is this big centerman coming from, the sky?
One from the sky would be nice. Next year I'd like to try Cormier in the middle during training camp and see if A. he's ready for the NHL and B. if some of his scoring ability will translate. I think a grown-up Cormier would be perfect for these two.

And I don't mean around the net like Parise around the net. Most of Rolston's ES goals have been quick wristers from inside of the circles when he has both the puck and an instant of open space. He's not utilized to his fullest potential because we don't have what we need to use him to his fullest - that big centerman I speak of.

Edit: Rolston is like Langenbrunner - he needs other players who mesh with his style to be effective. Unlike Parise, who will ALWAYS find a way to produce points, and unlike Elias, who really no matter who he's paired with, if he's having fun on the ice he's going to score somehow, he's just that talented, players like Rolston and Langenbrunner (and Madden, for that matter, whose offensive game is almost entirely one built on transition and he really isn't all that good at much else) will produce if they have the right situation to make them productive.

The jury is out on whether Zajac is a dependent or a creator in this regard, BTW. (As for Elias, if you want him to be really productive, I think all you need to do is bring in Martin Havlat. Not only are the two best buddies, but their individual skill levels are so high that I think Elias would just have a party. Give em' a Zubrus to open up the middle and watch out.)

Edit #2: Brian Gionta is another guy whose game is really dependent on his linemates. The problem is, I have no idea what he actually needs to be productive. Sometimes I think he's a garbage goal forward, which means he needs a blueline shooter and deflectable shots and rebounds to be really effective. Other times I think he's a slick-passing winger. He's so hard for me to get a handle on what he needs in order to create an effective chemistry.

One from the sky would be nice. Next year I'd like to try Cormier in the middle during training camp and see if A. he's ready for the NHL and B. if some of his scoring ability will translate. I think a grown-up Cormier would be perfect for these two.

And I don't mean around the net like Parise around the net. Most of Rolston's ES goals have been quick wristers from inside of the circles when he has both the puck and an instant of open space. He's not utilized to his fullest potential because we don't have what we need to use him to his fullest - that big centerman I speak of.

Edit: Rolston is like Langenbrunner - he needs other players who mesh with his style to be effective. Unlike Parise, who will ALWAYS find a way to produce points, and unlike Elias, who really no matter who he's paired with, if he's having fun on the ice he's going to score somehow, he's just that talented, players like Rolston and Langenbrunner (and Madden, for that matter, whose offensive game is almost entirely one built on transition and he really isn't all that good at much else) will produce if they have the right situation to make them productive.

The jury is out on whether Zajac is a dependent or a creator in this regard, BTW.

Edit #2: Brian Gionta is another guy whose game is really dependent on his linemates. The problem is, I have no idea what he actually needs to be productive. Sometimes I think he's a garbage goal forward, which means he needs a blueline shooter and deflectable shots and rebounds to be really effective. Other times I think he's a slick-passing winger. He's so hard for me to get a handle on what he needs in order to create an effective chemistry.

Come on, do you realistically see Patrice Cormier, 19, 20 years old, whatever, being touted to center a line with Brian Rolston and somehow produce points?

Rolston and Langenbrunner may be like each other, but they play different games. And I question those people who suggest that Rolston would produce more than Langs on that line. Their GAMES are entirely opposite - which is one of the points I'm trying to make.

I question why then we pay $5 million for a guy who is dependent on linemates? Maybe I just don't get it, but I don't think that you pay money for that. Hey we may not even pay our #1 defenseman that money in 2 years, but we payed that to an aging player?

Come on, do you realistically see Patrice Cormier, 19, 20 years old, whatever, being touted to center a line with Brian Rolston and somehow produce points?

Rolston and Langenbrunner may be like each other, but they play different games. And I question those people who suggest that Rolston would produce more than Langs on that line. Their GAMES are entirely opposite - which is one of the points I'm trying to make.

I question why then we pay $5 million for a guy who is dependent on linemates? Maybe I just don't get it, but I don't think that you pay money for that. Hey we may not even pay our #1 defenseman that money in 2 years, but we payed that to an aging player?
Where did I ever say Rolston would produce more than Langenbrunner with Parise and Zajac? I explicitly said Langenbrunner is better at that line's grinding style, while Rolston is all about finding seams. With more icetime and a proper line chemistry, Rolston has better offensive tools than Langenbrunner, yes absolutely. But he needs other assets whose skills mesh well with his. The closest thing we have to the center Rolston needs is Holik, and Holik simply doesn't have the hands he used to have.

Do I think Cormier will be ready to center Rolston next year? It's doubtful. But his skillset is right along the lines of what Rolston needs in a centerman, so I'd like to at least give it a look in camp.

Come on, do you realistically see Patrice Cormier, 19, 20 years old, whatever, being touted to center a line with Brian Rolston and somehow produce points?

Rolston and Langenbrunner may be like each other, but they play different games. And I question those people who suggest that Rolston would produce more than Langs on that line. Their GAMES are entirely opposite - which is one of the points I'm trying to make.

I question why then we pay $5 million for a guy who is dependent on linemates? Maybe I just don't get it, but I don't think that you pay money for that. Hey we may not even pay our #1 defenseman that money in 2 years, but we payed that to an aging player?

When Gionta walks this summer and Rolston takes his spot on the Elias-Zubrus line next year you will see...(I hope)

Come on, do you realistically see Patrice Cormier, 19, 20 years old, whatever, being touted to center a line with Brian Rolston and somehow produce points?

Rolston and Langenbrunner may be like each other, but they play different games. And I question those people who suggest that Rolston would produce more than Langs on that line. Their GAMES are entirely opposite - which is one of the points I'm trying to make.

I question why then we pay $5 million for a guy who is dependent on linemates? Maybe I just don't get it, but I don't think that you pay money for that. Hey we may not even pay our #1 defenseman that money in 2 years, but we payed that to an aging player?

we didnt pay him 5 millon dollars soley on his ES production but mostly for the power play. when we signed him i dont think the intention was to put him on a line with madden and clarkson but he got injured and the top 2 lines were working when he was out so thats where he ended up.

When Gionta walks this summer and Rolston takes his spot on the Elias-Zubrus line next year you will see...(I hope)
Zubrus works well with Gionta, but I don't see him meshing with Rolston - Rolston's passing skills aren't as good as Gionta's, and a huge number of Zubrus' goals have come off of Gionta passes. It's worth a shot, I suppose.

this will work

elias-madden-gionta
rolston-zubrus-clarkson

sham-wow youll be sayin wow

this will work

elias-madden-gionta
rolston-zubrus-clarkson

sham-wow youll be sayin wow
It's possible. I'm of the belief that Lou has been looking to move Madden for a replacement center, someone whose game is less transition based and more possession based, to match the team's shift in personality, but I know I'm in the minority there.

It's possible. I'm of the belief that Lou has been looking to move Madden for a replacement center, someone whose game is less transition based and more possession based, to match the team's shift in personality, but I know I'm in the minority there.

I don't know if he will be traded but it wouldn't surprise me if he gets dangled. I'm mroe then willing to let him go in the offseason as I think Pelley had has proven that he is ready to take the job done by madden especially since it looks like Pelley has found a scoring touch in Lowell this year. And with cormier coming in a year or few there wont be much need for him other then leadership.

Langs success comes from slappers from far out and banging home garbage rebounds in tight. He is not quick/agile in the slot to make a move and beat a D man.

Rolston scores on slappers from the point on PP and on fast breaks crossing the slot. He has a much quicker release and can deke out a D man/goalie to use his wrist/snap shot as well. He rarely scores on garbage rebounds as he's the one taking the shot.

They are very different players, one relying on feeding the shooter, the other on taking the shot. They actually would be a good fit together with a creative playmaking center in the middle of them. I don't want to see it, but if Elias were put in the middle of them that would be a sick line.

Where did I ever say Rolston would produce more than Langenbrunner with Parise and Zajac? I explicitly said Langenbrunner is better at that line's grinding style, while Rolston is all about finding seams. With more icetime and a proper line chemistry, Rolston has better offensive tools than Langenbrunner, yes absolutely. But he needs other assets whose skills mesh well with his. The closest thing we have to the center Rolston needs is Holik, and Holik simply doesn't have the hands he used to have.

Do I think Cormier will be ready to center Rolston next year? It's doubtful. But his skillset is right along the lines of what Rolston needs in a centerman, so I'd like to at least give it a look in camp.

I never said that you said that Rolston would produce more than Langenbrunner. I said "those people".

And yes, there are still some people who think that just because a guy is faster and has a harder shot than another player, that must mean that the player will put up more points.