How is Salvo a -5?

Say what you will about +/-, but I'm starting to think that he may be one of the more overrated defensemen we have (assuming there's someone out there besides me who thinks our d-men are actually decent).

He's good physically but I can't count the number of goals I've seen this season where he was out of position, in the way of the goalie, or generally not doing the right thing. (Running out of descriptions, sorry).

People always ***** and moan about Whitey but I think he has more hockey sense in his one eye than Salvador has in both of his, and the fact is that Whitey consistently plays with Mottau or Oduya, while Salvo is paired with my man P-Mart.

Say what you will about +/-, but I'm starting to think that he may be one of the more overrated defensemen we have (assuming there's someone out there besides me who thinks our d-men are actually decent).

He's good physically but I can't count the number of goals I've seen this season where he was out of position, in the way of the goalie, or generally not doing the right thing. (Running out of descriptions, sorry).

People always ***** and moan about Whitey but I think he has more hockey sense in his one eye than Salvador has in both of his, and the fact is that Whitey consistently plays with Mottau or Oduya, while Salvo is paired with my man P-Mart.

Salvador has been out on the ice for less 5 on 5 goals against than White. I posted this awhile back.

You're just another poster who looks at stats and makes assumptions and doesn't make opinions based upon what you see when you watch the games. Salvador is a better defenseman than White, end of story.

Salvador's stats have been the primary victim (after our goals against) of Madden and Pandolfo's relatively weak defensive play 5v5 so far this season.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2203/2167713934_d0db6ab556.jpg?v=0

I've been surprised by Salvo's offensive aggressiveness lately.. A lot of pinching and jumping up in the neutral zone..

Today's miscue that led to a goal was just unfortunate.. Patty and Salvo were on different pages and I don't think anyone thought Patty would dive pack to try and poke it to Bryce

I hope our D continues to be aggressive on the other side of the puck.. It's been huge for our offense

Salvador has been out on the ice for less 5 on 5 goals against than White. I posted this awhile back.

You're just another poster who looks at stats and makes assumptions and doesn't make opinions based upon what you see when you watch the games. Salvador is a better defenseman than White, end of story.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Riiiiiight, that's why I said this:

He's good physically but I can't count the number of goals I've seen this season where he was out of position, in the way of the goalie, or generally not doing the right thing. (Running out of descriptions, sorry).


....or did you miss that?
Personally, from watching games (Big so you don't miss it this time), I'm completely underwhelmed by Salvador so far this season. He's alright, sure, but for the amount of crap White gets (who from observation isn't as bad as his criticism), I'm surprised Salvador gets off scot-free.

Salvador's stats have been the primary victim (after our goals against) of Madden and Pandolfo's relatively weak defensive play 5v5 so far this season.

i disagree, i think its a result of their weak offensive play

i disagree, i think its a result of their weak offensive play
Then riddle me this: why is our PK so much worse this season than last when in terms of player and coaching personnel, aside from Brodeur, nothing has changed?

Then riddle me this: why is our PK so much worse this season than last when in terms of player and coaching personnel, aside from Brodeur, nothing has changed?

aside from brodeur (our best pker).....and i cant give you an answer, but i dont know what that has to do with 5-5 hockey. i know what you are saying, you are trying to prove to me that madden and pando havent been as good defensivley this year, but i think putting all that blame, about our pk being bad, on their shoulders is unfair. bottom line is if madden and pando scored more, or if salvador played with parise-zajac-langs, instead of madden and pando, his plus minus would be much higher for many reasons

Madden (starting looking a little better before the injury) and Pando haven't been strong on either side of the puck

aside from brodeur (our best pker).....and i cant give you an answer, but i dont know what that has to do with 5-5 hockey. i know what you are saying, you are trying to prove to me that madden and pando havent been as good defensivley this year, but i think putting all that blame, about our pk being bad, on their shoulders is unfair. bottom line is if madden and pando scored more, or if salvador played with parise-zajac-langs, instead of madden and pando, his plus minus would be much higher for many reasons
Madden and Pandolfo's defensive play has suddenly and drastically declined to this point this season. It's both 5v5 and on the PK, and in both places their stats which reflect defensive play (PK% and +/-) have fallen like someone attached them to the Titantic and sent them sailing off the eastern coast of Greenland. Salvador (and to a lesser extent Martin), the guys who play behind them, are taking the hit in their stats.

Their offense has been awful, yes, but that was to be expected. Last year's production was never going to be replicated, you just had to look at their career production to know that. What is clear, though, is that even though their offensive production has fallen back to what is much more typical of their offensive ability, their defensive stats are also much lower - and unlike with their offense, this represents a deviation from the quality of play we have been led to anticipate over the years. It's clear just watching them on the ice and it's clear in their stats.

Madden and Pandolfo's defensive play has suddenly and drastically declined to this point this season. It's both 5v5 and on the PK, and in both places their stats which reflect defensive play (PK% and +/-) have fallen like someone attached them to the Titantic and sent them sailing off the eastern coast of Greenland. Salvador (and to a lesser extent Martin), the guys who play behind them, are taking the hit in their stats.

Their offense has been awful, yes, but that was to be expected. Last year's production was never going to be replicated, you just had to look at their career production to know that. What is clear, though, is that even though their offensive production has fallen back to what is much more typical of their offensive ability, their defensive stats are also much lower - and unlike with their offense, this represents a deviation from the quality of play we have been led to anticipate over the years. It's clear just watching them on the ice and it's clear in their stats.

So is what you're essentially saying is that our players who should be shutting down at 5v5 aren't doing a good enough job? If so I'd agree with that, Madden and Pando have had a few brutal games this season.

So is what you're essentially saying is that our players who should be shutting down at 5v5 aren't doing a good enough job? If so I'd agree with that, Madden and Pando have had a few brutal games this season.
Yes, our shutdown players have been brutal thus far, and the blame belongs on Madden and Pandolfo. It's not an even strength thing, though, as the difference in quality of play is most clear on the PK.

Madden and Pandolfo's defensive play has suddenly and drastically declined to this point this season. It's both 5v5 and on the PK, and in both places their stats which reflect defensive play (PK% and +/-) have fallen like someone attached them to the Titantic and sent them sailing off the eastern coast of Greenland. Salvador (and to a lesser extent Martin), the guys who play behind them, are taking the hit in their stats.

Their offense has been awful, yes, but that was to be expected. Last year's production was never going to be replicated, you just had to look at their career production to know that. What is clear, though, is that even though their offensive production has fallen back to what is much more typical of their offensive ability, their defensive stats are also much lower - and unlike with their offense, this represents a deviation from the quality of play we have been led to anticipate over the years. It's clear just watching them on the ice and it's clear in their stats.

whats clear to me watching them on the ice, especially with a few key guys out, is sutter let them lose a bit and wants them to pitch in offensivley, which i would attribute to their defensive drop. i wouldnt expect madden, pandolfo, or salvadors plus minus to be above even because they are playing against the teams top lines night in and night out, and they are going to get more goals 5-5 than pando and maddens line is

whats clear to me watching them on the ice, especially with a few key guys out, is sutter let them lose a bit and wants them to pitch in offensivley, which i would attribute to their defensive drop. i wouldnt expect madden, pandolfo, or salvadors plus minus to be above even because they are playing against the teams top lines night in and night out, and they are going to get more goals 5-5 than pando and maddens line is
I would agree with that except last season Sutter let them loose even more and their offensive stats rose... and their defensive stats didn't fall. They were as solid defensively last season as ever.

If you were right, and the only change between this season and last season is that they've been let loose offensively more, you would expect that their penalty killing wouldn't decline since it isn't affected by their 5v5 play.

The best judge for the defensive play of Madden and Pandolfo is our team's PK stats. No, it's not perfect, but they're our primary penalty killers and +/- is far from perfect for this purpose. The decline in our team's PK is attributable to a decline in their defensive skills, and that carries over to their +/- and consequently the defensemen who are responsible for helping them in 5v5 shutdown situations.

I would agree with that except last season Sutter let them loose even more and their offensive stats rose... and their defensive stats didn't fall. They were as solid defensively last season as ever.

If you were right, and the only change between this season and last season is that they've been let loose offensively more, you would expect that their penalty killing wouldn't decline since it isn't affected by their 5v5 play.

we cant forget that marty isnt in net. we both know how much he means to the shutdown line and the pk, now i cant disagree with you that they arent (so far) as good as they were last year defensivley, but its not as drastic a drop of as you are making it sound like and they also arent as good offensivley as last year, which i think is the reason why their stats look differently this year. sutter said he wants ot play a puck possesion defensive style, if tehy cant protect the puck and keep it in the offensive zone, they are going to give up chances

we cant forget that marty isnt in net. we both know how much he means to the shutdown line and the pk, now i cant disagree with you that they arent (so far) as good as they were last year defensivley, but its not as drastic a drop of as you are making it sound like and they also arent as good offensivley as last year, which i think is the reason why their stats look differently this year. sutter said he wants ot play a puck possesion defensive style, if tehy cant protect the puck and keep it in the offensive zone, they are going to give up chances

Herein lies the problem with using Madden and Pandolfo 20+ minutes a night as our primary defensive unit. They don't protect the puck well. When they are on the ice it's like we're on a perpetual penalty kill - that I attribute mostly to Pandolfo. Madden and Pando score almost all of their points in transition, not as a result of possession.

When you've got a weak penalty kill, you don't put yourself in a position where you play a penalty-kill like game even at 5v5. We've never had a weak penalty kill before... now we apparently do. It's not just Brodeur, our PK was in decline even before he went down.

A mostly-unrelated note: after being "terrible" in Tampa Bay last season, Lukowich has returned to a much-loved status in San Jose, suggesting that his defensive problems in Tampa were due to Tampa, and not to Lukowich. If we had Lukowich, Salvador, and White as our three defensive defenseman working alongside Martin, Oduya, and Greene/Salmela, I would be thrilled beyond words.

Herein lies the problem with using Madden and Pandolfo 20+ minutes a night as our primary defensive unit. They don't protect the puck well. When they are on the ice it's like we're on a perpetual penalty kill - that I attribute mostly to Pandolfo. Madden and Pando score almost all of their points in transition, not as a result of possession.

When you've got a weak penalty kill, you don't put yourself in a position where you play a penalty-kill like game even at 5v5. We've never had a weak penalty kill before... now we apparently do. It's not just Brodeur, our PK was in decline even before he went down.

but is that an OFFENSIVE problem or DEFENSIVE? i guess its a bit of both

concerning the pk, yea it is a problem. but like i said before i dont think putting all the blame on pando and madden is fair. it wasnt great before marty got injured, and it continues to struglle but i think now that marty is gone we are going to have to adjust so it will take time. weekes and clemmer not only cant make as good of saves, but they can control the rebound nearly as well as marty. its a problem, but every year we go through a bit of a rough patch and all we can do is hope it works itself out like it has in the past

A mostly-unrelated note: after being "terrible" in Tampa Bay last season, Lukowich has returned to a much-loved status in San Jose, suggesting that his defensive problems in Tampa were due to Tampa, and not to Lukowich. If we had Lukowich, Salvador, and White as our three defensive defenseman working alongside Martin, Oduya, and Greene/Salmela, I would be thrilled beyond words.
If we still had Lukowich then we never would have brought up Mottau, which would have been great.

he is a good solid defensman probably a better #4 maybe #3 but on this squad he is #2.
which means he is always matched against opposition's best. couple that with the fact that martin was out for awhile, and it does not surprise me. I am a believer in +/- stat but it can only be judge over a full season in my opinion. 20 games is not long enough especially considering the key injuries this team has suffered. and by the way we lost our #1 goalie as well, key defensive centerman and the #1 defensman that logs 25 minutes per night.

i would check back with this post after 60 games. i think he is slightly overatted by chico, but overall he is pretty good.

No matter how bad his plus minus is, when i want a defensive stop, i want Salvador out there over White.

A mostly-unrelated note: after being "terrible" in Tampa Bay last season, Lukowich has returned to a much-loved status in San Jose, suggesting that his defensive problems in Tampa were due to Tampa, and not to Lukowich. If we had Lukowich, Salvador, and White as our three defensive defenseman working alongside Martin, Oduya, and Greene/Salmela, I would be thrilled beyond words.

i would rather have the right handed puck moving defenseman we have been looking for............like that guy on detroit named rafalski

No matter how bad his plus minus is, when i want a defensive stop, i want Salvador out there over White.

agreed

No matter how bad his plus minus is, when i want a defensive stop, i want Salvador out there over White.

:nod:

If we still had Lukowich then we never would have brought up Mottau, which would have been great.

I would have loved if we resigned Luko.

Salvador has played awesome this year. how can anyone say otherwise? who cares what his +/- is

colin white is a +9 you really mean to tell me hes been THAT much better than Bryce? hell no. in fact, he hasnt been better than him at all

Salvador has played awesome this year. how can anyone say otherwise? who cares what his +/- is

colin white is a +9 you really mean to tell me hes been THAT much better than Bryce? hell no. in fact, he hasnt been better than him at all

Thank you.

I was beginning to get a tad upset with the notion that people in a hockey forum were going to begin using the useless stat of +/- in an attempt to create a meaningful argument, let alone Devils fans who I know have been lectured at length on the topic, and let alone in regards to one of our best defenseman this season.

Stand-down. False alarm. Return to Defcon 2

http://blog.eop.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/defcon1_big.jpg

If we still had Lukowich then we never would have brought up Mottau, which would have been great.

yea but how do you know we would have salvador too? because i doubt we would, especially at that price

Say what you will about +/-, but I'm starting to think that he may be one of the more overrated defensemen we have (assuming there's someone out there besides me who thinks our d-men are actually decent).

He's good physically but I can't count the number of goals I've seen this season where he was out of position, in the way of the goalie, or generally not doing the right thing. (Running out of descriptions, sorry).

People always ***** and moan about Whitey but I think he has more hockey sense in his one eye than Salvador has in both of his, and the fact is that Whitey consistently plays with Mottau or Oduya, while Salvo is paired with my man P-Mart.

I'm not the biggest fan of +/- to solve debates, but I do agree with you that people tend to exaggerate how "good" Salvador is and tend to scapegoat and blame Colin White. They're both decent Dmen in the 3/4 vein, but neither are 1/2 guys.

its fine to scapegoat someone if they are actually causing the problems they are blamed for

Just to compare who else is 'bad' with a -5 or worse rating:

Milan Hedjuk
Chris Drury
Joe Sakic
Mike Peca
Mike Cammalleri
Derek Roy
Dion Phaneuf
Jay Bouwmeester
Matthew Schneider
Ed Jovanoski
Brad Boyes

boyes has 17 points and is still a -14 holy ****

Just to compare who else is 'bad' with a -5 or worse rating:

Milan Hedjuk
Chris Drury
Joe Sakic
Mike Peca
Mike Cammalleri
Derek Roy
Dion Phaneuf
Jay Bouwmeester
Matthew Schneider
Ed Jovanoski
Brad Boyes

Wow, let's trade Pandolfo for Phaneuf while his stock is low.:sarcasm:

boyes has 17 points and is still a -14 holy ****

much like ryan whitney, its probably powerplay points

I'm perfectly content with Salvo and aside from a Vishnevski moment last night and his pathetic play against Voros and the Rags, he's a stable, strong and mostly intelligent defenseman.

If you gave me a choice of him and Colin White who is a +9, was it? I'd still take Salvador 10 times out of 10. Namely because White is prone to streaks of horrible penalties, he's arguably less mobile, plus I like the fact Salvador can actually kick the **** out of someone when he drops them (which I wish was more often). They both serve the same general role on a team, but overall I'd say Salvador does it better.

Thank you.

I was beginning to get a tad upset with the notion that people in a hockey forum were going to begin using the useless stat of +/- in an attempt to create a meaningful argument, let alone Devils fans who I know have been lectured at length on the topic, and let alone in regards to one of our best defenseman this season.

Stand-down. False alarm. Return to Defcon 2

http://blog.eop.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/defcon1_big.jpg

let me preface this reply by saying i think at this point a -5 means absolutely nothing with regard to salvador. and the stat in short term is rather useless.

but for a stay at home defenseman, over the long term it is not a useless statistic. you are wrong about that in my opinion. scott stevens had a pretty good career average of +/-. and i bet if you look up some of the better defensive defenseman their +/- is strong, if you can prove me wrong, i will agree, keep in mind i have not checked fact vs. my statement which i will do now.

comparing scott stevens to salvador is where you lost me

let me preface this reply by saying i think at this point a -5 means absolutely nothing with regard to salvador. and the stat in short term is rather useless.

but for a stay at home defenseman, over the long term it is not a useless statistic. you are wrong about that in my opinion. scott stevens had a pretty good career average of +/-. and i bet if you look up some of the better defensive defenseman their +/- is strong, if you can prove me wrong, i will agree, keep in mind i have not checked fact vs. my statement which i will do now.

look at a team's average +/- and then do a statistical standard deviation from that - if a player is below that he is certainly one of the 'weaker' members of the roster but it's all relative to how the team is doing (cue puddy). You can have good players with negative ratings, and poor players with a positive rating. +/- has long been argued to be nothing more than a resulting stat, not an indicator stat. Put Salvador with Martin and watch his rating skyrocket. Put him with Brookbank and watch it sink.

It's not rocket science, but go look at Detroit's +/- and then go look at Colorado's. All the way up and down the colorado roster - big negatives. The team is not that strong, does not have a positive goal differential, and thus everyone takes a minus. Scott Stevens played on great teams - where everyone had good + ratings.

NJ only has a +4 goal differential which means everyone could actually have a minus rating if none of the goals against were powerplay goals. That isn't the case, but there are too many scenarios involved to make it a leading indicator of a player's quality or value to a team.

If you want to disagree that's fine but I know several scouts and coaches have stated publicly when interviewed they don't even bother to look at +/- when evaluating a player.

let me preface this reply by saying i think at this point a -5 means absolutely nothing with regard to salvador. and the stat in short term is rather useless.

but for a stay at home defenseman, over the long term it is not a useless statistic. you are wrong about that in my opinion. scott stevens had a pretty good career average of +/-. and i bet if you look up some of the better defensive defenseman their +/- is strong, if you can prove me wrong, i will agree, keep in mind i have not checked fact vs. my statement which i will do now.

I will prove you wrong.

Scott Stevens was a first ballot Hall of Famer.

To break it down to a simpler level, there are people here that seem to act as if the difference between Salvador and White is the difference between Parise and Rupp, which is pure nonsense and can only be explained by fanboyedness. I simply dont see a dramatic difference between the two, they're both decent players, but nothing special really.

By the way, is anyone else getting PIZZED OFF at these deceptive popups that are intentionally and invisibly spilling over into clickable areas? Screw you Circuit City.

To break it down to a simpler level, there are people here that seem to act as if the difference between Salvador and White is the difference between Parise and Rupp, which is pure nonsense and can only be explained by fanboyedness.

By the way, is anyone else getting PIZZED OFF at these deceptive popups that are intentionally and invisibly spilling over into clickable areas? Screw you Circuit City.

seriously. does this happen to sponsors too? i ****ing hate these ads, but i have no way to donate twelve dollars.

no ads for sponsors :yo:

Salvador has been out on the ice for less 5 on 5 goals against than White. I posted this awhile back.

You're just another poster who looks at stats and makes assumptions and doesn't make opinions based upon what you see when you watch the games. Salvador is a better defenseman than White, end of story.

Your insane.
Yes Salvador makes our defense better. But he is not better the Colin White.

Your insane.
Yes Salvador makes our defense better. But he is not better the Colin White.

i would have to disagree with you

i would have to disagree with you

White has won 2 Stanley Cups, blocks shots, stands in front of the crease and has a presence on ice. On just about 3/4 of the league he would be a top 4 defenseman.

Salvador is not a legit top 4 defenseman onn 3/4 of the leagues teams.

Salvador cannot play 20-25 minutes a game if called upon consistently.

White looked like he was not the same after the injury last season. he has bounced back in a big way similarly how Madden bounced back last season after people suggested making him tradeable.

Salvador is a decent defenseman but he is not as good as Colin white. White is a core part of this team and is a locker room leader and somewhat of an on ice leader.

Salvador was traded for Cam Jannsen and even though that was a salary dump and also involved a St. Louis native returning home when the Blues needed an enforcer, Colin White would demand MUCH more in a deal and all 30 GM's would loove to have him on their blueline.

I do like what Bryce brings to this team and he hadds a lot of grit. he has also joined in on shooting the puck from the point a lot more recently which results in Goals. But eve his agent when the deal was signed this past offseason for 4 years himself said he likes the fact it was 4 years because even if he does not work out or perform he has long term security within the orgaization. Saying that just tells you what his agent thinks.

Again, I like Salvadors game and he is a good fit, but he is not better then Colin White. Never in a million years.

White has won 2 Stanley Cups, blocks shots, stands in front of the crease and has a presence on ice. On just about 3/4 of the league he would be a top 4 defenseman.

Salvador is not a legit top 4 defenseman onn 3/4 of the leagues teams.

Salvador cannot play 20-25 minutes a game if called upon consistently.

White looked like he was not the same after the injury last season. he has bounced back in a big way similarly how Madden bounced back last season after people suggested making him tradeable.

Salvador is a decent defenseman but he is not as good as Colin white. White is a core part of this team and is a locker room leader and somewhat of an on ice leader.

Salvador was traded for Cam Jannsen and even though that was a salary dump and also involved a St. Louis native returning home when the Blues needed an enforcer, Colin White would demand MUCH more in a deal and all 30 GM's would loove to have him on their blueline.




:help:


are you being serious?!

have you watched any games this year? HOW can you say White has been better than Salvador, honestly?!

he cant play 20-25 minutes a night? thtas why hes averaging 22 minutes a game this year right?

:help:


are you being serious?!

have you watched any games this year? HOW can you say White has been better than Salvador, honestly?!

he cant play 20-25 minutes a night? thtas why hes averaging 22 minutes a game this year right?

There have been times this seasson salvador has played better then White and iced over 20 minutes. Other nights he has been invisible.

The poster said that "Salvador is a better defense man then Colin White" . he did not say "Salvador is playing better overall then White this season". That is a big differece.

I have seen Salvador with his head up his ass a several times this year as well, watchig the same games as you and supporting the same team as you.

White is a better defence man pound for pound. come April if we are in the post season, I would take White over Salvador six ways to Sunday.

Like I said, if you were to poll 30 GM's any and everyone of them would take the services of Colin White over a borderline Top 4 defense man in Salvador. He has played well, but that is irrelevant as to who the "better" defence man is.

when a defensive DMan is "invisible" thats a GOOD thing

White makes at least one bonehead play per game or takes one bonehead penalty per game

Salvador is a better DMan than White. period.

when a defensive DMan is "invisible" thats a GOOD thing

White makes at least one bonehead play per game or takes one bonehead penalty per game

Salvador is a better DMan than White. period.

They both are physical, but White is more of an in your face bang the body defense man. He is more of a leader. There is a reason he has been an Alternate Captain as a Devils defense man. There is a reaso he has a NTC. He has won 2 Stanley Cups and has a ton of playoff experience beyond that. HE loves to block shots and he is essentially a back up Goalie on the ice in terms of positioning a lot of times.

When I say Salvador is invisible some nights, I mean he is a non factor. He plays no roll in those particular games.

please do not confuse this with me thinking Salvador offers nothing. I loved the deal when we picked him up and I loved the signing this offseason.

But you cannot tell me with a straight face that Bryce Salvador who never made the post season but once in his career (aside from last year where he did not play due to injury) is better then Colin White. That is just ridicolous. White is an untapped leader of this team. Or at least one of them. He is part of the core of this team.

The minute the puck dropped against the Isles this year on Opening Night, I can tell White was going to bounce back from last season.

To defend Sal, regarding the playoff experience, he did play on the Blues....

To defend Sal, regarding the playoff experience, he did play on the Blues....

Yes one season in the playoffs. Interestingly they got to the WCF. the year the Avs beat us and won the Stanley Cup.


I describe Sal as an above averaged bottom pairing defense man. As above averaged #5 that can serve as a #4 in some cases and on some teams. Again, good fit and good addition. Good size and physicality.

They both are physical, but White is more of an in your face bang the body defense man. He is more of a leader. There is a reason he has been an Alternate Captain as a Devils defense man. There is a reaso he has a NTC. He has won 2 Stanley Cups and has a ton of playoff experience beyond that. HE loves to block shots and he is essentially a back up Goalie on the ice in terms of positioning a lot of times.

When I say Salvador is invisible some nights, I mean he is a non factor. He plays no roll in those particular games.

please do not confuse this with me thinking Salvador offers nothing. I loved the deal when we picked him up and I loved the signing this offseason.

But you cannot tell me with a straight face that Bryce Salvador who never made the post season but once in his career (aside from last year where he did not play due to injury) is better then Colin White. That is just ridicolous. White is an untapped leader of this team. Or at least one of them. He is part of the core of this team.

The minute the puck dropped against the Isles this year on Opening Night, I can tell White was going to bounce back from last season.

I can tell you with a straight face that Salvo is better than White.. White hasn't been the same player the last two years.. He had a stretch of about 2 weeks (when he came back with Langs last season) where we saw the old White

Don't throw in the 'never made it to the postseason' card.. He was stuck on a horrible team

Salvo has become the guy who steps up physically on D.. Not afraid to drop the gloves, stand up for his teammates, or give a good old face wash

White has bounced back from last season? you must be watching a different player than me

saying Salvador never made the playoffs as an argument is ludicrous. its not his fault he was stuck on a ****** team, cmon man

white was MAYBE the #4 defenseman on our cup teams, and im not even sure i would put him at that high

he cant play 20-25 minutes a night? thtas why hes averaging 22 minutes a game this year right?

lol, my thoughts exactly. And they are usually against the top players of the other team, so they are tougher minutes than White.

White has bounced back from last season? you must be watching a different player than me

saying Salvador never made the playoffs as an argument is ludicrous. its not his fault he was stuck on a ****** team, cmon man

white was MAYBE the #4 defenseman on our cup teams, and im not even sure i would put him at that high

If you cannot see that White is better then last season (in which I acknowledge was an injury plagued season) then you are not payig attention. As soonn as he returned last season you can see the impact in a positive way he has on the blueline. Then he fell apart. last season was a write off for him. I gave him a pass.

I am telling you now. Any GM would love Colin White. He has way more value. It would take more then a Cam Jannsen to acquire him.

They both are physical, but White is more of an in your face bang the body defense man. He is more of a leader. There is a reason he has been an Alternate Captain as a Devils defense man. There is a reaso he has a NTC. He has won 2 Stanley Cups and has a ton of playoff experience beyond that. HE loves to block shots and he is essentially a back up Goalie on the ice in terms of positioning a lot of times.
I love White and appreciate all that he has done for this organization, but he is simply not the same player that he was two years ago. I don't blame him, the eye injury was a freak accident that he had absolutely no control over. But his lack of vision on the right side has directly lead to defensive breakdowns that have caused goals this season and will definitely cause many more. He's still servicable as a 5/6 defenseman in this league. It's truly amazing when you think about it, a lesser guy probably wouldn't even be playing. But an A for effort doesn't cut it at this point in his career, especially when Sutter insists on playing him 20 minutes a night.

White has bounced back from last season? you must be watching a different player than me

saying Salvador never made the playoffs as an argument is ludicrous. its not his fault he was stuck on a ****** team, cmon man

white was MAYBE the #4 defenseman on our cup teams, and im not even sure i would put him at that high

White was a solid #4 dman on the 2003 team as Niedermayer's partner. He was #6 on 2000 and #5 on 2001.

Anyway, I used to be a huge White fan, so it pains me to see all the mistakes he's making now, which I can only attribute to the lack of vision.

I can tell you with a straight face that Salvo is better than White.. White hasn't been the same player the last two years.. He had a stretch of about 2 weeks (when he came back with Langs last season) where we saw the old White

Don't throw in the 'never made it to the postseason' card.. He was stuck on a horrible team

Salvo has become the guy who steps up physically on D.. Not afraid to drop the gloves, stand up for his teammates, or give a good old face wash

I agree he is not the same player as the White pre lockout. I TOTALLY agree with that. But in terms of how valueable on and off the ice he is to this team and hi character and leadership, you cannot replace that.

White would do anything for this team. He would take a puck to his head for this team. And he has been skating better this season and digging down low and beating players to the puck. He has been much more solid of a stay at home defence man this season then last.

I also trust White way more on the PK.

One thing I will confess to is that I like how Salvador is throwing the puck on net a lot more. That fits Sutters style this season and will result in more scoring as players like Gionta and Parise can capitalize o rebouds. Salvador has more offensive upside then White. But that is where it ends.

White was a solid #4 dman on the 2003 team as Niedermayer's partner. He was #6 on 2000 and #5 on 2001.

Anyway, I used to be a huge White fan, so it pains me to see all the mistakes he's making now, which I can only attribute to the lack of vision.

He was a ROOKIE and a SECOND YEAR PLAYER those seasons.

Anybody who knows anything about hockey would tell you that nobody can just walk right into the NHL as a defence man and have an immeditate impact. A forward can, but a defence man takes time to develop into their position and how good they are going to be. White lacked a lot of discipline early in his career and thrived o improving that and he has.

He also played with Stevens, Niedermayer, Rafalski, Daneyko and Malakhov in 2000 and the same minus Malakhov add O'Donnell in 01.

They're both good and we love them equally and anybody who doesn't agree with me has never played hockey or is not a true Devils fan.

there... we can all relax now.

:facepalm:

He was a ROOKIE and a SECOND YEAR PLAYER those seasons.

Anybody who knows anything about hockey would tell you that nobody can just walk right into the NHL as a defence man and have an immeditate impact. A forward can, but a defence man takes time to develop into their position and how good they are going to be. White lacked a lot of discipline early in his career and thrived o improving that and he has.

He also played with Stevens, Niedermayer, Rafalski, Daneyko and Malakhov in 2000 and the same minus Malakhov add O'Donnell in 01.


This is all correct and you aren't telling me anything I don't know. White was all set to become the next Daneyko for the team, until the unfortunate eye injury.

They're both good and we love them equally and anybody who doesn't agree with me has never played hockey or is not a true Devils fan.

there... we can all relax now.

:facepalm:

Vw6F3Sf-PGw:dm::dm::m-dance:

This is all correct and you aren't telling me anything I don't know. White was all set to become the next Daneyko for the team, until the unfortunate eye injury.

White = Daneyko
Hale= Stevens
Martin= Neids

When Stevens left Whitey's devlopment stopped. It's been a decline sense. With that said he still plays his heart out and truely loves the organization.

I like the monkeys... nice touch. :biglaugh:

This is all correct and you aren't telling me anything I don't know. White was all set to become the next Daneyko for the team, until the unfortunate eye injury.

I would take Dano over both of them. Daneyko was a VERY underrated defense man. Not just a loyal NJ Devil and a sentimental fan favorite, but a very very VERY good defense man. I tink he was good enough to be a top 4 also if he did not play with the likes of Stevens and Niedermayer and Rafalski.

The eye injury occured last season. He has played since 2000 and slowly progressed (as most defence man do) into a very good stay at home defence man that opponents want no part of on the ice.

Yes one season in the playoffs. Interestingly they got to the WCF. the year the Avs beat us and won the Stanley Cup.


I describe Sal as an above averaged bottom pairing defense man. As above averaged #5 that can serve as a #4 in some cases and on some teams. Again, good fit and good addition. Good size and physicality.

He was Pronger's partner in St. Louis, and then Brewer's partner. Now, he's Martin's partner. So I'd describe him as a guy who isn't much on his own, but is very good at complementing the best dman on a given team.

I would take Dano over both of them. Daneyko was a VERY underrated defense man. Not just a loyal NJ Devil and a sentimental fan favorite, but a very very VERY good defense man. I tink he was good enough to be a top 4 also if he did not play with the likes of Stevens and Niedermayer and Rafalski.



And White looked to be on the verge of all those things at the end of 2006. Pairing him with Martin as the top shutdown pair was a big part of turning the season around. His absence might have been the reason Staal was able to score that goal with about a second left in game 2. I was a fan of White's new contract at the time.

But that isn't the White we have now. One-eyed White makes mistakes that lead directly to goals, and therefore cannot be counted on in a shutdown role.

White = Daneyko
Hale= Stevens
Martin= Neids

The fact that you would put David Hale in the same line as Scott Stevens with an equal sign between them tells me your thought process is out in LF.

Ken Klee was a better defence man then David Hale. Scott Stevens is a top 5 defence man in NHL HISTORY.

Niedermayer is a first ballot HOFer with 4 Cups. Martin is still developing and it is uncertain he will become anywhere near the skill level of Niedermayer. Martin is not a set in stone bonified no doubt about it top pairing. You can argue for and against that. Niedermayer is hands down a top pairing and a top 2 defence man in the league.

Daneyko was better then White, but that one is at least some what comparable.

White = Daneyko
Hale= Stevens
Martin= Neids

:laugh:

how i hale doing now? he is in phoenix right?

But that isn't the White we have now. One-eyed White makes mistakes that lead directly to goals, and therefore cannot be counted on in a shutdown role.

Salvdor has made his share of mistakes as well. Many times I have watched a replay of a Goal and he was right there made to look silly. In the first 5 games this season he looked nervous on the ice. Salvador has gotton better and for the most part I have no comlaints.

Again, White had an injury plagued write off type season last year. He has bounced back nicely. Again come April (if this team is in the post season picture) I would want White on the ice 10 times out of 10 over Bryce Salvador. By then though, I think Lou will have dealt for a LEGIT top pairing D Man. Once/if that happens it will not be White that is in the bottom pairing. it will be Salvador and White will be the 2nd pairing in the top 4.

White has bounced back from last season? you must be watching a different player than me

saying Salvador never made the playoffs as an argument is ludicrous. its not his fault he was stuck on a ****** team, cmon man

white was MAYBE the #4 defenseman on our cup teams, and im not even sure i would put him at that high

Man you are ass backwards. The Cup teams might be the time he was NOT a #4 and he was developing into one. He played as a top 4 but he still was developing into the type of defence man he became. If he was a # 4 on our cup teams that would mean he was right under Stevens, Niedermayer and Rafalski. that is understandable company to be under.

The fact that you would put David Hale in the same line as Scott Stevens with an equal sign between them tells me your thought process is out in LF.

Ken Klee was a better defence man then David Hale. Scott Stevens is a top 5 defence man in NHL HISTORY.

Niedermayer is a first ballot HOFer with 4 Cups. Martin is still developing and it is uncertain he will become anywhere near the skill level of Niedermayer. Martin is not a set in stone bonified no doubt about it top pairing. You can argue for and against that. Niedermayer is hands down a top pairing and a top 2 defence man in the league.

Daneyko was better then White, but that one is at least some what comparable.

I didn't think I needed it with a post like that but here it is.. ~> :sarcasm:

:laugh:

how i hale doing now? he is in phoenix right?

That he is! Good job!

Last I heard he was being hated on by Calgary fans.. I still remember this board being pissed that Lou gave him up for such a low-round pick

That he is! Good job!

Last I heard he was being hated on by Calgary fans.. I still remember this board being pissed that Lou gave him up for such a low-round pick

Well, I wasn't on here at that time, but I would've gotten a bag of pucks for Hale, I felt he was that worthless.

To break it down to a simpler level, there are people here that seem to act as if the difference between Salvador and White is the difference between Parise and Rupp, which is pure nonsense and can only be explained by fanboyedness. I simply dont see a dramatic difference between the two, they're both decent players, but nothing special really.

Well, I'd argue both are having solid seasons; but the expanded stats at Behind the Net with respect to +/- are interesting for all the Devils. (http://www.behindthenet.ca/2008/5_on_5.php?sort=8&mingp=10&mintoi=&team=N.J&pos=) Vis a vis White and Salvador, I find it interesting that they face the same general quality of competition, but they are vastly different in quality of teammates. Given that the ratings he calculates are both goal prevention AND goal scoring, it may be fairer to say that when White's on the ice, he's generally with a scoring unit but Salvador's generally with the checkers. Since Madden and Pandolfo generally face an opposition's first line and haven't been their usual ace-checking forward-selves this season, it reflects on Salvador with goals being given up. And that can tie into whether Salvador made a bad play, a teammate made a bad play, the goalie letting in a softie, or perhaps the opposition just had a great shot that no one had any chance on, that can only go case-by-case. But it's interesting to see overall how it looks.

As far as to WHY Madden and Pandolfo aren't their usual ace-checking forward-selves, who knows. I couldn't tell you WHY the Devils have found consistent, scoring offense in the last 4 games, either. Maybe we'll figure it out later?

For the record, Bryce has been in the NHL playoffs a total of five times - four times (38 games, 2 goals, 1 assist) with the Blues and once (last year) with the Devils (1 goal).

As regards his past blueline partners: his first two seasons, his partner was Al Macinnis (in Bryce's rookie season, Al won the Norris). So, his partners have been Macinnis, Pronger, Brewer and Martin. There are probably others, but those four are at the top of the list, in terms of games played with Bryce as their wingman.

Finally, if you want to really dig deep about his plus-minus, take a look at how many minuses he got when Martin was out of the lineup.

+/- is such a useless stat I am sorry. Salvador can be -25 and I would still want him out there over some of the other D.

Salvador did not deserve his contract at all, people complained about pando's but its no where near as ridiculous as what salvador is earning. We got salvador for cam janssen, and no matter how bad a trade could come out there must be a reason for why the Blues decided to do such a trade.

Salvador did not deserve his contract at all, people complained about pando's but its no where near as ridiculous as what salvador is earning. We got salvador for cam janssen, and no matter how bad a trade could come out there must be a reason for why the Blues decided to do such a trade.




and we also got scott niedermayer for tom kurvers so i guess he was awful too right?


please. get out of here with that garbage.

Salvador did not deserve his contract at all, people complained about pando's but its no where near as ridiculous as what salvador is earning. We got salvador for cam janssen, and no matter how bad a trade could come out there must be a reason for why the Blues decided to do such a trade.

The guy is the 78th highest paid d-man.. $2.9 mill for what he does is not bad at all..

Look at some other guys who have no business getting paid upwards of 4 million a year

St. Louis got rid of Bryce because they were unlikely to resign him and JD likely wanted something to spark the team and their fans..

Are you trying to say people are supposed to be paid as to who their traded for?

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/8227/facepalm2kx3.jpg

Salvador did not deserve his contract at all, people complained about pando's but its no where near as ridiculous as what salvador is earning. We got salvador for cam janssen, and no matter how bad a trade could come out there must be a reason for why the Blues decided to do such a trade.

Duuude, you're just awesommmmee.

I'm beginning to wonder if you watch hockey or just read stat sheets after the game.

The guy is the 78th highest paid d-man.. $2.9 mill for what he does is not bad at all..

Look at some other guys who have no business getting paid upwards of 4 million a year

St. Louis got rid of Bryce because they were unlikely to resign him and JD likely wanted something to spark the team and their fans..


Also they wanted to resign jackman, which they did at the deadline.

and we also got scott niedermayer for tom kurvers so i guess he was awful too right?

His example was bad, but so too is the above example.

78th highest paid D-man but he certainly isn't even in the top 100 D-men in the league.

78th highest paid D-man but he certainly isn't even in the top 100 D-men in the league.

he definitley is

he isnt one of the top 100 dman in the league? are you SERIOUS?

name me 100 better DMen right now

I'm beginning to wonder if you watch hockey or just read stat sheets after the game.

Yes, we get it, everyone who disagrees with you doesn't watch hockey.

Is hockey that sport with the bat and the umpires? I have no idea, because I don't agree with you.

Madden and Pandolfo's defensive play has suddenly and drastically declined to this point this season. It's both 5v5 and on the PK, and in both places their stats which reflect defensive play (PK% and +/-) have fallen like someone attached them to the Titantic and sent them sailing off the eastern coast of Greenland. Salvador (and to a lesser extent Martin), the guys who play behind them, are taking the hit in their stats.

Their offense has been awful, yes, but that was to be expected. Last year's production was never going to be replicated, you just had to look at their career production to know that. What is clear, though, is that even though their offensive production has fallen back to what is much more typical of their offensive ability, their defensive stats are also much lower - and unlike with their offense, this represents a deviation from the quality of play we have been led to anticipate over the years. It's clear just watching them on the ice and it's clear in their stats.


end thread as far as Madden and Pandon go well said CD

as far as Sal goes love his play and his price tag look at how much white is getting.......the prob is his D around him and unlike a couple games no O

As regards his past blueline partners: his first two seasons, his partner was Al Macinnis (in Bryce's rookie season, Al won the Norris). So, his partners have been Macinnis, Pronger, Brewer and Martin. There are probably others, but those four are at the top of the list, in terms of games played with Bryce as their wingman.



What a bunch of bums. Bottom pairing guy for sure. :facepalm:

They tell me to do things..... I done.... runnin.

Salvador did not deserve his contract at all, people complained about pando's but its no where near as ridiculous as what salvador is earning. We got salvador for cam janssen, and no matter how bad a trade could come out there must be a reason for why the Blues decided to do such a trade.

Are you serious man? Have you watched any games this season? Salvador has been one of our best players.

The Blues had to make a decision, it was either re-signing Barret Jackman or Salvador. They also have guys like Brewer and Mckee back there making big bucks and they also had to sign a couple of their forwards. Salvador became the odd man out because this is a business, not because he played bad. He was on their top pairing and was playing against opposition's top lines every night.

St.Louis fans and players were devastated when the guy left. Do some research about it will ya before you post something like that.

They also needed to do something to bring in people into the stands. A local boy like Janssen certainly does that. He might not be much of a hockey player, but he certainly is a favourite in St.Louis and he brings people out of their seats when he's out there. The Blues felt that they needed a guy like that.

Are you serious man? Have you watched any games this season? Salvador has been one of our best players.

I have not missed a game of Devils hockey this season, and I can tell you, that while he has been "ok" he has most certainly NOT been one of our "best" players. And I think a lot of people will agree with me on that.

Oduya and Martin have been our two best defence man on a consistent baisis this season. And to be honest....it really is a no brainer and not even close. People need to start paying attention.

Stop with the overhype. Salvador is a nice piece to the puzzle. He adds size to the blueline which is always nice to have an abundance of and he has done some good things.

He is nowhere near as valueable to the Devils as Colin White is, and he is nowhere in the same class of a defence man as Coilin White is. Not today, tomnorrow, next week, next month, next year, never.

He is nowhere near as valueable to the Devils as Colin White is, and he is nowhere in the same class of a defence man as Coilin White is. Not today, tomnorrow, next week, next month, next year, never.

There's arguing your position. There's defending your position. Then there's going totally overboard with blanket statements that negate any credibility you might have had going for you.

This is the latter.

Salvador was awesome in the first 12 games, since then he has dropped off abit while big Colin has picked his play up. I would say they are equally valuable right now, though they both need to do a better job on the PK.

Both have had a couple of gaffes recently. Oh well...

I have not missed a game of Devils hockey this season, and I can tell you, that while he has been "ok" he has most certainly NOT been one of our "best" players. And I think a lot of people will agree with me on that.

Oduya and Martin have been our two best defence man on a consistent baisis this season. And to be honest....it really is a no brainer and not even close. People need to start paying attention.

Stop with the overhype. Salvador is a nice piece to the puzzle. He adds size to the blueline which is always nice to have an abundance of and he has done some good things.

He is nowhere near as valueable to the Devils as Colin White is, and he is nowhere in the same class of a defence man as Coilin White is. Not today, tomnorrow, next week, next month, next year, never.

While I agree that Martin and Oduya have been better than Salvador, Salvador has been better than White by far. White has not been consistent or physical this year at all. To often this year he has made plays like he did on that 4 on 4 vs Tampa. That was awful.

its pointless to argue with this guy as he obviously has a hard on for white

its pointless to argue with this guy as he obviously has a hard on for white

It has nothing to do with a hard on.

Do you have one for salvador??

I am just saying thst Salvador can never fill the shoes of Colin White and his value to this team on and off the ice. he provides leadership and has won Cups. Salvador will never be able to to what White hs done. Can he out perform him on ice at times? Perhaps, but I still thnk White is a better D man.

It has nothing to do with a hard on.

Do you have one for salvador??

I am just saying thst Salvador can never fill the shoes of Colin White and his value to this team on and off the ice. he provides leadership and has won Cups. Salvador will never be able to to what White hs done. Can he out perform him on ice at times? Perhaps, but I still thnk White is a better D man.





this is why its impossible to argue with you.

It has nothing to do with a hard on.

Do you have one for salvador??

I am just saying thst Salvador can never fill the shoes of Colin White and his value to this team on and off the ice. he provides leadership and has won Cups. Salvador will never be able to to what White hs done. Can he out perform him on ice at times? Perhaps, but I still thnk White is a better D man.

I think you are looking at a Colin White that isn't there anymore as I don't see that player. And its not like we want him to fail. Well some might but I don't, I want the old Colin White back. But since the eye injury he has not been the same player. He is not as physical and has lost his consistency on the blue line. There has been a drop in his play and I'm not sure what kind of leadership you are showing by not playing up to your abilities but he is not.

Salvador is our #3, which really is exactly where he belongs - second pairing defensive defenseman. He's playing on our first pairing and is adequate in that role, but Oduya is our #2.

Martin
Oduya
Salvador
White
Salmela/Mottau/Greene
Brookbank/Leach

That's our current depth chart.

I think you are looking at a Colin White that isn't there anymore as I don't see that player. And its not like we want him to fail. Well some might but I don't, I want the old Colin White back. But since the eye injury he has not been the same player. He is not as physical and has lost his consistency on the blue line. There has been a drop in his play and I'm not sure what kind of leadership you are showing by not playing up to your abilities but he is not.

He has improved from last season. And even with the eye injury, you can call me crazy, but I would take a one eyed Whitey over Bryce Salvador on my blueline any day.

To be honest I think overall our defence has been nothing short of solid this season. There has been some inconsistency but for the most part it has been very good. Salmela has looked good and Oduya and Martin imo have been the best defence man for us. White has playedvery well and so has Salvador.

My only point is I trust White more then Salvador. Even with the injury it is not like White is a slow blind crippled non factor. He is still a presence and still is in good position. i see him stealing the puck A LOT this season and I see a lot of the old Colin White blocking thattacking zone and also standing in front of the crease. His best days are behind him, but even in saying that he is still a very solid Defense man and I would not trade his leadership and character and importance to the team for anybody including Bryce Salvador.

I still think if you polled 30 GM's in the league everyone of them would take Colin White on their second pairing.

Yes, we get it, everyone who disagrees with you doesn't watch hockey.

Is hockey that sport with the bat and the umpires? I have no idea, because I don't agree with you.

In his case, yes.

Saying that Salvador's contract is worse than Pandolfo's.

Saying that there's a reason why St. Louis only took back Janssen for Salvador. Suggesting that his value equates to that of Cam Janssen's.

You don't think statements like that make him look foolish?

If White is the better defenseman, then how come Salvador is playing against opponents top lines, getting more minutes, and playing on the top pair? Can you explain this for me? Thanks.

He has improved from last season. And even with the eye injury, you can call me crazy, but I would take a one eyed Whitey over Bryce Salvador on my blueline any day.

To be honest I think overall our defence has been nothing short of solid this season. There has been some inconsistency but for the most part it has been very good. Salmela has looked good and Oduya and Martin imo have been the best defence man for us. White has playedvery well and so has Salvador.

My only point is I trust White more then Salvador. Even with the injury it is not like White is a slow blind crippled non factor. He is still a presence and still is in good position. i see him stealing the puck A LOT this season and I see a lot of the old Colin White blocking thattacking zone and also standing in front of the crease. His best days are behind him, but even in saying that he is still a very solid Defense man and I would not trade his leadership and character and importance to the team for anybody including Bryce Salvador.

I still think if you polled 30 GM's in the league everyone of them would take Colin White on their second pairing.

Perfect time to start a poll.. They're not GMs but it would gather views from around the league

http://hfboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72

In his case, yes.

Saying that Salvador's contract is worse than Pandolfo's.

Saying that there's a reason why St. Louis only took back Janssen for Salvador. Suggesting that his value equates to that of Cam Janssen's.

You don't think statements like that make him look foolish?

If White is the better defenseman, then how come Salvador is playing against opponents top lines, getting more minutes, and playing on the top pair? Can you explain this for me? Thanks.

Because Salvador joins the attack more, can carry the puck on the transition and is quicker. And by the way you are not tatally correct. He is not facing oppositions top lines and icing top minutes every game. When Martin was out he was with duya a bit. Now Martin is back and he is still with Oduya on and off. Look I am not going to sit here and argue about Salvador. I read the 2nd post of this thread and somebody said Salvador is better then White. that fired me up thats all. Whites value and leadership and presence is more then anything Salvador can bring to this team. If Salvador went on the IR this season it would not have as much of an effect as when White did last season and if he did this season.

If the Devils were playing Julein ball or trap hockey White would be leading the Devils in ice time.

He has improved from last season. And even with the eye injury, you can call me crazy, but I would take a one eyed Whitey over Bryce Salvador on my blueline any day.

The thing is, you have made your argument pretty poorly and have said some silly things. I actually agree with you in that I believe that HF Boards posters here when taken as a whole tend to overrate Salvador and underrate White, but I think they're both decent players. My thoughts are pretty much what Brit said below, that they're pretty close to equal. I'd probably give a slight edge to White based on 20 games, but certainly not by much. They've both done a decent job.

Salvador was awesome in the first 12 games, since then he has dropped off abit while big Colin has picked his play up. I would say they are equally valuable right now

In his case, yes.

Saying that Salvador's contract is worse than Pandolfo's.

Saying that there's a reason why St. Louis only took back Janssen for Salvador. Suggesting that his value equates to that of Cam Janssen's.

You don't think statements like that make him look foolish?

If White is the better defenseman, then how come Salvador is playing against opponents top lines, getting more minutes, and playing on the top pair? Can you explain this for me? Thanks.

Okay I am sorry, but there really REALLY is a reason why Salvador only deamed a return of Cam Jannsen. Not saying he is worth Jannsen. He is worth more but Salvador was also in an FA season status wise which always triggers less of a return. But that still does not take away from the fat he was traded for Cam Jannsen. I really just do not know what you want me to say. Do you want me to snap myfingers and make it that Sal was traded to us for Brian Gionta, lol? Cause he was not. I GUARANTEE you if White was an FA last season even AFTER the eye injury, it would have cost a team more then a Cam Jannsen type player to pry him from us. It might have been a 2nd round pick or something.

Also, teams win cups with players like Jay Pandolfo. He is worth every penny. I am not convinced Salvador is going to be on the big league club for the entire contract he signed. Pando has been on the ice against opponents top lines since he has been on NJ. And he is a very underrated grinder and a very solid defensive forward.

The thing is, you have made your argument pretty poorly and have said some silly things.

What have I said that is so silly? All I said is that under no circumstances and at any time would I ever replace Colin White and his value and meaning to the team with Bryce Salvador. Ever. I am sorry if you think that is silly but that is how I feel.

I have also mentioned how I think White is better, by talking about his on ice performance this season and overall and his leadership.

Not sure what was said that was so silly.

Okay I am sorry, but there really REALLY is a reason why Salvador only deamed a return of Cam Jannsen. Not saying he is worth Jannsen. He is worth more but Salvador was also in an FA season status wise which always triggers less of a return. But that still does not take away from the fat he was traded for Cam Jannsen. I really just do not know what you want me to say. Do you want me to snap myfingers and make it that Sal was traded to us for Brian Gionta, lol? Cause he was not. I GUARANTEE you if White was an FA last season even AFTER the eye injury, it would have cost a team more then a Cam Jannsen type player to pry him from us. It might have been a 2nd round pick or something.

Your really not winning over anyone with this argument...

Your really not winning over anyone with this argument...

I am not going to base how I feel about Bryce Salvador on who he was traded for. I base my feelings on how he performs on ice. I think that is what you aretrying to say and I think you speak for everyone. And I agree with you.

Salvador has played well. In some ways I think he has actually exceeded expectations.

My point is I still would prefer White over Salvador any day of the week. Just my opinion. White brings a lot more to the table. Thats all.

Watching the same games as my fellow Devils fans on this board I can tell you I am seeing a lot of very good things from White. Things that tell me he can still play. And his value on the PK is still second to none.

He has improved from last season. And even with the eye injury, you can call me crazy, but I would take a one eyed Whitey over Bryce Salvador on my blueline any day.

.

Ok - your crazy. ;)

All kidding aside, we will just have to agree to disagree here. You claim all of these intangibles white brings, all I saw him bring last year was a lot of key breakdowns at key moments against the Rangers. The intangibles weren't there from him in the playoffs and this season he has been more inconsistent than Bryce from what I've seen. And faces the oppositions top lines less often. I think there is a reason for that. Both playing at their best are probably about equal on D but I just haven't seen White's best in a little while so I would take Salvador.

Okay I am sorry, but there really REALLY is a reason why Salvador only deamed a return of Cam Jannsen. Not saying he is worth Jannsen. He is worth more but Salvador was also in an FA season status wise which always triggers less of a return. But that still does not take away from the fat he was traded for Cam Jannsen. I really just do not know what you want me to say. Do you want me to snap myfingers and make it that Sal was traded to us for Brian Gionta, lol? Cause he was not. I GUARANTEE you if White was an FA last season even AFTER the eye injury, it would have cost a team more then a Cam Jannsen type player to pry him from us. It might have been a 2nd round pick or something.

Also, teams win cups with players like Jay Pandolfo. He is worth every penny. I am not convinced Salvador is going to be on the big league club for the entire contract he signed. Pando has been on the ice against opponents top lines since he has been on NJ. And he is a very underrated grinder and a very solid defensive forward.

We got Salvador partly for Jannsen because he was a UFA. You are correct on that. Another part of it is that JD had a hard-on for Janssen and also probably felt that it'd be a good PR move to bring Cam back to his hometown.

White might not return anything if he was an impending FA. Why? Because he has a No Trade Clause.



Because Salvador joins the attack more, can carry the puck on the transition and is quicker. And by the way you are not tatally correct. He is not facing oppositions top lines and icing top minutes every game. When Martin was out he was with duya a bit. Now Martin is back and he is still with Oduya on and off. Look I am not going to sit here and argue about Salvador. I read the 2nd post of this thread and somebody said Salvador is better then White. that fired me up thats all. Whites value and leadership and presence is more then anything Salvador can bring to this team. If Salvador went on the IR this season it would not have as much of an effect as when White did last season and if he did this season.

If the Devils were playing Julein ball or trap hockey White would be leading the Devils in ice time.

So let's see. Salvador is, as you admit it, quicker and better on the transition. In other words, he's more apt for the new style of hockey since the lockout, while White really isn't.

Salvador is getting more ice time per game than White, 21:57 to 19:42. Not a huge difference, but enough to show that Salvador IS playing top minutes and against big lines.

Okay I am sorry, but there really REALLY is a reason why Salvador only deamed a return of Cam Jannsen. Not saying he is worth Jannsen. He is worth more but Salvador was also in an FA season status wise which always triggers less of a return. But that still does not take away from the fat he was traded for Cam Jannsen. I really just do not know what you want me to say. Do you want me to snap myfingers and make it that Sal was traded to us for Brian Gionta, lol? Cause he was not. I GUARANTEE you if White was an FA last season even AFTER the eye injury, it would have cost a team more then a Cam Jannsen type player to pry him from us. It might have been a 2nd round pick or something.

Also, teams win cups with players like Jay Pandolfo. He is worth every penny. I am not convinced Salvador is going to be on the big league club for the entire contract he signed. Pando has been on the ice against opponents top lines since he has been on NJ. And he is a very underrated grinder and a very solid defensive forward.

Except that the circumstances where that they were going to lose bryce for nothing as they knew they couldn't afford to keep him. So they got someone who would be a fan favorite in st louis and would be at a low cap cost to help save room for the other players they would retain. Plus the team they traded him to could easily have lost him in the offseason. To use who he got traded for without looking at all the circumstances shows a real lack in understanding of the situation.

I am not going to base how I feel about Bryce Salvador on who he was traded for. I base my feelings on how he performs on ice. I think that is what you aretrying to say and I think you speak for everyone. And I agree with you.

Salvador has played well. In some ways I think he has actually exceeded expectations.

My point is I still would prefer White over Salvador any day of the week. Just my opinion. White brings a lot more to the table. Thats all.

Watching the same games as my fellow Devils fans on this board I can tell you I am seeing a lot of very good things from White. Things that tell me he can still play. And his value on the PK is still second to none.

It shows with our awesome 75.6% PK.. Traditionally I would take Madden, Pando and MArty as our highest PK value, however everyone on our PK has sucked this year

We'll just agree to disagree.. You like White, I like Salvo.. Hope they both play well

Side note: Our PK at home in 68.2%.. Ew

Perfect time to start a poll.. They're not GMs but it would gather views from around the league

http://hfboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72

At your request:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=576540

Watch. The. Games. :shakehead

At your request:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=576540

OoO, nicely put together!

Except that the circumstances where that they were going to lose bryce for nothing as they knew they couldn't afford to keep him. So they got someone who would be a fan favorite in st louis and would be at a low cap cost to help save room for the other players they would retain. Plus the team they traded him to could easily have lost him in the offseason. To use who he got traded for without looking at all the circumstances shows a real lack in understanding of the situation.

Drewr, with all due respect he did point out exactly what you said regarding the trade (although I had to read it about 4 times before I got that part)

Personally, I love Whitey and Salvador. They're both exceptionally strong players, as in physical strength, far superior to most on the team I'd say. And as far as the "old" Whitey goes, I definitely don't want the "OLD old" White, the one who was good for that one-two TERRIBLE penalty night back when Scotty (Stevens or Neids) was there to cover for him, but this one is still better than a ****-ton of the players that some teams call "D-men" in this league.

However, and most importantly (the reason I posted here, in fact)... is that the new baby in your avatar?!?!?! :) :handclap:

Drewr, with all due respect he did point out exactly what you said regarding the trade (although I had to read it about 4 times before I got that part)

Personally, I love Whitey and Salvador. They're both exceptionally strong players, as in physical strength, far superior to most on the team I'd say. And as far as the "old" Whitey goes, I definitely don't want the "OLD old" White, the one who was good for that one-two TERRIBLE penalty night back when Scotty (Stevens or Neids) was there to cover for him, but this one is still better than a ****-ton of the players that some teams call "D-men" in this league.

However, and most importantly (the reason I posted here, in fact)... is that the new baby in your avatar?!?!?! :) :handclap:

It is indeed. RG was kind enough to hook me up with one.

Your right in rereading he did say it but then still said let's face it he only got traded for Cam. :huh:

Wow, Salvador was a pending UFA and JD wanted and pined for Cam. He's a fan favorite here and now playing in front of his hometown. The Blues have a few guys in the mold of Salvador and mid type stay at home pairings. Not to mention, the Blues were going nowhere and were drafting a good young defensemen and clear cap space.

White may have won a few cups here, however he's also played on teams that featured two of the best ever to play the position as well as a Devils lifer in Dano. Now he's good support player, he's not the marquee.

I like White and all, however post injury he's a little more tepid and his "awww man" look when he's out of position in front of the net when the team scores is getting old quick. He needs to elevate his game and for his sake, he's lucky that Mottau/Oduya/Salmela/Martin can carry the puck up ice and are playing better.

Bryce can fight, shots the puck on net and helps with protecting Brodeur. While I would desire a more elite defensemen, I don't have a problem with him here. However, at this stage I would say that he brings more to the table than White in his overall game.

As far as Pando and his defensive prowess, it better show up soon. The PK stinks and so does his game. i was hoping he would play like he did prior to getting hurt last season. The fact is he got a nice payday and a NTC. He looks lost out there and if he can't cut on the PK, it's time to bump him down.

White needs to do this more.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04Gg3V2f2t439/340x.jpg

White needs to do this more.

Pose for a picture?

I'm getting bored with this thread

In the immortal words of Dieter

"Your story has become tiresome"
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/9158/dieter30av4jj.jpg

Pose for a picture?

Take more shots. He has an awesome shot, especially for rebounds. Nice and low and accurate.

white's got the worst slapshot ive ever seen haha i laugh every time he tries to shoot because he never fully winds up for it

white's got the worst slapshot ive ever seen haha i laugh every time he tries to shoot because he never fully winds up for it

i forget when but didnt one of our coaches say in an article that Whitey has the best slap shot of all the defenseman?

and thats with his ****** technique. just imagine if he took a full wind up.

i forget when but didnt one of our coaches say in an article that Whitey has the best slap shot of all the defenseman?

and thats with his ****** technique. just imagine if he took a full wind up.

I know Greene has the hardest shot. Problem is they keep hitting the defensemen. But I guess taking them out one at a time works too.

White proving his 'invaluable leadership' in the last 30 seconds of the game there.

He ****ing blows.

White apparently got a plus on the game winning goal because Salmela (who helped get the puck to Oduya) changed before he scored. White must have been great on D this game!:sarcasm:

well now salvador is only a minus 1 and madden and pandolfo are the worst. aside from rolston (minus 1) salvador and the guys who wont play in jersey again this year madden and pando are the only two that are minus. madden minus 8 and pando minus 6

I gotta tell you, aside from the fact that Salvador has done everything expected of him and more this season, aside from the fact that it is hard to complain about anyone right now, if anyone cannot see the value that White adds to this team then they should resort to another hobby instead of watching hockey.

The way he ties players up, the way he keeps the puck in the zone, the way he still finds a way to hit with only one eye, the way he is SKATING, the way he is in position, he has been out of his mind.

Maybe I am watching a different Colin White then some others are. But he has been tremendous for us. To the point, I can actually say, this team would not be the same if he got injured again.

White's played very well lately.

And his shot might look retarded, but it definitely packs a punch.

White has been very solid.

No doubt, Whitey has been a beast for us lately. Probably the best d-man the last few games. Yesterday he was the best player on the Devils, and no one else was really close.