How good was Messier defensively?

I'm too young to have seen Mark Messier play during his prime, so I want to hear your opinions about his defensive game. Some people consider him one of the best two-way players of all time, while other are saying that his defensive game was overrated because of his physical abilities, and that he didn't received many Selke votes during his career.

I'm too young to have seen Mark Messier play during his prime, so I want to hear your opinions about his defensive game. Some people consider him one of the best two-way players of all time, while other are saying that his defensive game was overrated because of his physical abilities, and that he didn't received many Selke votes during his career.

His defensive game was nothing remotely Selke worthy, but he wasn't a sieve either.

A modern Comparison would be Joe Thornton. Not Selke worthy, but not bad defensively either. No I am not comparing the players because I know Messier blows Thornton out of the water. I am speaking strictly defensively.

On that Oilers squad, Kurri and Tikkanen were the defensive two way standouts.

Messier is most certainly not one of the greatest two way forwards. Not even top 40. I can name 20 from 1990 forward alone better than messier in that regard.

His defensive game was nothing remotely Selke worthy, but he wasn't a sieve either.

A modern Comparison would be Joe Thornton. Not Selke worthy, but not bad defensively either. No I am not comparing the players because I know Messier blows Thornton out of the water. I am speaking strictly defensively.

On that Oilers squad, Kurri and Tikkanen were the defensive two way standouts.

Messier is most certainly not one of the greatest two way forwards. Not even top 40. I can name 20 from 1990 forward alone better than messier in that regard.

I agree.

Messier's real strength was forechecking.

He carried out the regular defensive duties of a centerman, and did it fairly well, but he was never the guy you would use to shut down the other teams best player.

Messier shut down the Trottier line in the '84 final and Messier took every important faceoff during that Cup run. He was also a top minute penalty killer too during the Oilers dynasty. The guy was no slouch defensively, but if anyone was going to get Selke votes in Edmonton it would've been MacTavish or Tikkanen before Mess.

What I remember in the early part of his role on the Oilers;

If you wanted a player to win a face-off in your own zone the Oilers would send Messier out.

If you wanted a player to kill a penalty the Oilers would send Messier out.

Messier in his prime was above average defensively (at least for a superstar), but not spectacular.

He was, however, a GREAT hitter (and often dirty). People often confuse physical play with defense, which is why players like Messier and Forsberg are overrated defensively.

Yeah he was a complete player for sure, but never the best in the game defensively

Messier shut down the Trottier line in the '84 final and Messier took every important faceoff during that Cup run. He was also a top minute penalty killer too during the Oilers dynasty. The guy was no slouch defensively, but if anyone was going to get Selke votes in Edmonton it would've been MacTavish or Tikkanen before Mess.

The Trottier line was facing off against Gretzky's line more than Messier and Andersons. The Islanders wanted Trottier going head to head with Gretzky since Trottier was the best two way forward, but it was a task beyond almost anyone. Trotz line spent far more time defending against Gretzky/Kurri than not, and Kurri and Lowe were shadowing Bossy like a madman.

The Islanders were hurting a bit too in the injuries department. Not that they would have beaten the oilers anyways, but the games might have been closer had they not been missing some key players, mostly on defense.

Dave Langevin, one of the teams better defensive Dmen was out with a shoulder injury.
Stefan Persson, one of the teams better two way Defensemen was out with a shoulder injury as well.

Bob Nystrom, one of the more solid secondary scorers was out almost all year with a knee injury(He retired soon after)

Bob Bourne, another solid secondary scorer was also out with a knee injury.

Being down 2 of your top 4 Defensemen hurts any team. Especially when facing an offensive juggernaut.

Losing 2 of your top 6 scoring forwards doesn't help much either.

Edit: I need to make a point of watching this series again. I just rewatched a ton of other islanders series, so this one will be next

The Trottier line was facing off against Gretzky's line more than Messier and Andersons. The Islanders wanted Trottier going head to head with Gretzky since Trottier was the best two way forward, but it was a task beyond almost anyone. Trotz line spent far more time defending against Gretzky/Kurri than not, and Kurri and Lowe were shadowing Bossy like a madman.

The Islanders were hurting a bit too in the injuries department. Not that they would have beaten the oilers anyways, but the games might have been closer had they not been missing some key players, mostly on defense.

Dave Langevin, one of the teams better defensive Dmen was out with a shoulder injury.
Stefan Persson, one of the teams better two way Defensemen was out with a shoulder injury as well.

Bob Nystrom, one of the more solid secondary scorers was out almost all year with a knee injury(He retired soon after)

Bob Bourne, another solid secondary scorer was also out with a knee injury.

Being down 2 of your top 4 Defensemen hurts any team. Especially when facing an offensive juggernaut.

Losing 2 of your top 6 scoring forwards doesn't help much either.

Edit: I need to make a point of watching this series again. I just rewatched a ton of other islanders series, so this one will be next

I think the absences of Langevin and Bourne were felt the most.

Bourne's speed and Langevin's size in front of the net were definitely missed in that final series. I recall Langeving causing the Oilers fits around the net the previous year.

I don't think Persson was missed too much. It's never good to have one of your starters out, but Persson missed a lot of playoff games during their Cup years and they managed just fine.

Morrow's gimpy knees hurt them more. He was never the fastest guy on the ice, but he was painfully slow after missing most of the season with knee problems.

IIRC, it was Ken Linseman (with Dave Hunte and Pat Hughes) who did most of the checking work against Trottier and Bossy, plus Lowe and Huddy on D.

I've got game 5 on VHS and Messier was taking Trottier to school dude. Just watched the 1st period for the umpteenth time. And..

In the first 2 minutes the Isles had a PP and Messier makes an amazing blocked shot and made it look easy!

It was Messier vs Trottier on every faceoff in the Oilers zone and Messier was winning the draws. When the puck was in the Isles end it was Trottier vs Gretzky with Gretzky allowing the Isles to draw the puck back along the boards and then putting pressure on their d-men to make a quick play.

Neutral zone faceoffs saw Trottier facing Kevin McClelland, which is where the Isles top line showed any hope of generating any scoring chances against Andy Moog who was lights-out AWESOME.

Dave Langevin was playing too!

Stop trying to re-write history Isles fans.

People often confuse physical play with defense, which is why players like Messier and Forsberg are overrated defensively.

True, I've noticed this trend in the nhl talk section.

I've got game 5 on VHS and Messier was taking Trottier to school dude. Just watched the 1st period for the umpteenth time. And..

In the first 2 minutes the Isles had a PP and Messier makes an amazing blocked shot and made it look easy!

It was Messier vs Trottier on every faceoff in the Oilers zone and Messier was winning the draws. When the puck was in the Isles end it was Trottier vs Gretzky with Gretzky allowing the Isles to draw the puck back along the boards and then putting pressure on their d-men to make a quick play.

Neutral zone faceoffs saw Trottier facing Kevin McClelland, which is where the Isles top line showed any hope of generating any scoring chances against Andy Moog who was lights-out AWESOME.

Dave Langevin was playing too!

Stop trying to re-write history Isles fans.

Cool, I wish I could watch those games again. Do you have the dvd or is it online somewhere?

Was Morrow there? Perhaps I am confusing them, but I know that Langevin missed a lot of games in the playoffs. Didn't remember that he had come back.;)

I've got game 5 on VHS and Messier was taking Trottier to school dude. Just watched the 1st period for the umpteenth time. And..

In the first 2 minutes the Isles had a PP and Messier makes an amazing blocked shot and made it look easy!

It was Messier vs Trottier on every faceoff in the Oilers zone and Messier was winning the draws. When the puck was in the Isles end it was Trottier vs Gretzky with Gretzky allowing the Isles to draw the puck back along the boards and then putting pressure on their d-men to make a quick play.

Neutral zone faceoffs saw Trottier facing Kevin McClelland, which is where the Isles top line showed any hope of generating any scoring chances against Andy Moog who was lights-out AWESOME.

Dave Langevin was playing too!

Stop trying to re-write history Isles fans.
I am not an isles fan, and I am not rewriting history.

Langevin played very few games that playoff, and when he did, it was at minimal capacity.

As Promised, I started re-watching this series. On through games 1 and 2 so far. So far not much Messier on Trottier action, or vice Versa. The isles seemed to be using their last line change home ice advantage to change the matchups up.

The first game was 1-0 Edmonton, but Gretzky and Kurri and Coffey were effectively shut down. Trottier and co spent more time shadowing them than anything. Goaltender dual.

Game 2 was a blowout for the Isles. From what I remember, the Oilers had an advantage now since the next 3 were played in Edmonton(Weird format that year)

And then Messier took over game 3. I am looking forward to watching it. Especially since I am currently involved in a discussion with another poster who insists Jagr blows Messier away and that it is not close(I think Messier is a spot ahead)

The bad. I need to go request getting games 3, 4 and 5 on another site as I do not have copies of those games. Fortunately, I know just the place:)

Ignoring the cups ... who wins Iginla vs Messier ?

Ignoring the cups ... who wins Iginla vs Messier ?

Messier easily.

Ignore the cups, but you can't forget Messier is one of the most clutch playoff performers of all time in the process.

He also has 2 Hart trophies, 2 Pearson's in an era when Lemieux and Gretzky were outscoring him by 30-40 points. One of his Hart's was highway Robbery on Bourque, but Messier was still the best forward.

Iginla was top 10 in points twice in a weaker era for scoring forwards than Messier's. Messier was top 10 six times, and defensively, they are about as close as it gets

Iginla is the closest to Mess of the current players. Messier was not necessarilar great defensively, but he was the most complete foward of his era, and probably second only the Mr. Hockey himself.

Messier had ever hockey prowess you could hope to have, the perfect hockey specimen; great skater, good shot, good playmaker, good stick handler, great checker, strong, capable of fighting, intimidating, made teammates better, motivated teammates, had his best performances in the biggest games.

he truly had it all, hockey version of Willie Maze.