How much Vezina consideration should Giguere get?

Not much is going on, here's a huge post to stir up some discussion.

It seems like a lot of people think the Vezina is a 2 horse race between Brodeur and Nabokov. And a good case could be made for those 2, because they have very high win totals. In fact, I feel like traditionally wins (or maybe games played, roughly the same thing) have been weighted over all the other stats. Just look at 03 where Turco had 0.30 fewer GAA and 0.18 better sv% to Brodeur, but Brodeur took the trophy. Likely because he had 10 fewer wins, even though it came in 18 fewer games so that Turco's point% was significantly better than Brodeur's.

How much consideration should Giguere get for Vezina? He's certainly hurt by the fact that he played 19 games fewer than both Nabokov and Brodeur and that he has 9 and 11 fewer wins than Brodeur and Nabokov respectively. And he's hurt on main board talk by the totally irrational hate a lot of posters have.

But here's an interesting factoid. If you look at the 4 major stats (W, GAA, SV%, SO), only 3 goalies are in the top 10 in all 4. Brodeur, Giguere, and Backstrom. In fact, if you average the place that all goalies have, Giguere is the best. Giguere = 5.25, Brodeur = 6.5, Backstrom = 8.75. Nabokov is 23rd in the league in sv%, so his average of the 4 categories is only 7.5. Lundqvist, another name bandied about, is 18th in sv%, and his average is a pedestrian 7.25. So going by the ordinals, Giguere is statistically the best goalie of that group. Slightly misleading because Brodeur is hurt because there's a whole pack of goalies with ~.920 sv%, but he's the worst of that pack.

Here's another set of stats. Giguere's points earned per game of 1.31 is higher than any of the other 3 guys often named as being above him. Nabokov = 1.30, Brodeur = 1.22, Lundqvist = 1.17. So while he played in fewer games, he was arguably better than any of the contenders in the games he played.

Now games played/wins is absolutely an important consideration. A better rate or pace is all fine and good, but in the end it means nothing unless you actually play the games and get the results. Which is why the Bertuzzi ~ Penner thing is misleading, or why the Niedermayer into the ASG really was a poor choice. This is exactly why Osgood, Hasek, and Price don't deserve a sniff of consideration despite their excellent stats.

But how should "points" be earned? Giguere played 58 games. That's roughly what a starter plays, although that number should probably be more like 65. Nabokov and Brodeur played 77(!) games. That's insane. They're well conditioned, but part of that is also because those teams don't have a credible backup.

My feeling is Giguere shouldn't be docked any points compared to the average goaltender, but those 2 should get a few bonus points for being able to shoulder the load. But you just can't expect or require a goalie to play 70+ games. In fact, it's probably stupid, Brodeur seemed to be tired and off his game last season. Luongo had a few glaring lapses as we knocked the Canucks out too.

Another thing to discuss is what's your impression on how the Vezina is voted in terms of ancillary considerations? Some posters seem to think that ____ is a more worthy Vezina candidate because they have a worse team in front of them. Now that's certainly important in an MVP discussion, and it should certainly be considered when trying to decide which goalie you'd want if you were starting a team, but does this really factor into Vezina voting (voted by the GMs I believe)? My impression is that it doesn't, and that Vezina tends to be a straight up stats award. But that's just my impression.

I think in the end it should be Brodeur's award. Nabokov's 23rd in SV% is too far down for me. And Brodeur's 9 more wins is enough to compensate for Giguere's better all-around stats (pt%, sv%, gaa). But I'm a little surprised at how quickly other people dismiss Giguere as even being a worthy 3rd.

No consideration!
His pads are too big!
He doesn't move in the net!
He just lets the puck hit him!
He's got too many good defensemen in front of him!
He was nothing without Niedermayer!
He kicked my dog!

I think he comes in 3rd, but would have won it if he played 10 more games with the same stats. I just don't think he played enough to beat out guys with 9 and 11 more wins.

Nabokov's .910 SV% is really subpar to me, but he won 61.3% of his games (only behind Huet) so that will probably be ignored.

I think Nabokov wins it, but I really think Broduer and Giguere were better when you look at all the categories other than Wins and Games Played.

Lundqvuist better not get consideration over Giguere. Giguere was better pretty much across the board...except shutouts. Considering that Lundqvuist's 6 more SO's didn't give him a better GAA or SV% than Giguere, it's a mostly meaningless stat.

If the final 3 aren't Nabokov, Broduer, and Giguere then something's wrong. It's the 2 biggest workhorses this season with nice stats and the best statistical goalie of the year.

No consideration!
His pads are too big!
He doesn't move in the net!
He just lets the puck hit him!
He's got too many good defensemen in front of him!
He was nothing without Niedermayer!
He kicked my dog!

Kevin just wrapped up eight pages of HF Boards Giguere debates up in one tidy post.

The above is why he doesn't get consideration around here. I think he'll probably come in third or fourth in voting. I think he deserves the third spot. He's been great, as he has been pretty consistently since joining the Ducks. He's absolutely elite, regardless of what the meatheads on these boards think.

Sharks fans' takes on the Vezina, in case anyone is interested:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=499049

I'd have to say, though, that at this point I would consider replacing Luongo with Giguere.

i think Broduer should get it, without him that team has NO chance.

i think Broduer should get it, without him that team has NO chance.

A close second to Luongo. Vancouver did not make the playoffs, but can you imagine how bad they would have been without Luongo all season. They could have made Tampa look like Detroit without Luongo between the pipes.

Luongo? He isn't even a blip on my radar this year. His wins per game is bad, as are his GAA (13th) and sv%(14). And he finished off the season really poorly (which I think leaves a big impression on the voters). Collapsing out of the playoffs doesn't help either.

I have Giguere, Leclaire, Backstrom, Huet, and Lundqvist all before Luongo.

Luongo deserved 2nd last year, and he deserved more MVP votes than Brodeur as well. But his stellar season doesn't mask the fact that he's had a subpar year.

A close second to Luongo. Vancouver did not make the playoffs, but can you imagine how bad they would have been without Luongo all season. They could have made Tampa look like Detroit without Luongo between the pipes.

Luongo's inclusion depends on how much each of these factor in...
- Overall GAA and SV% rank (he's not even top 10 in either)
- # of Wins (he's 8th, not bad)
- Win % (he's close to 20th)
- Team in front of him (pretty bad team in front of him)
- End results of season (missed playoff=very bad)

There may be more factors, but these have to be major ones and Luongo only does well in one of these categories...which really isn't something he contributes to.

Luongo? He isn't even a blip on my radar this year. His wins per game is bad, as are his GAA (13th) and sv%(14). And he finished off the season really poorly (which I think leaves a big impression on the voters).

I have Giguere, Leclaire, Backstrom, Huet, and Lundqvist all before Luongo.

same, add Nabokov

I think he comes in 3rd, but would have won it if he played 10 more games with the same stats. I just don't think he played enough to beat out guys with 9 and 11 more wins.

Nabokov's .910 SV% is really subpar to me, but he won 61.3% of his games (only behind Huet) so that will probably be ignored.

I think Nabokov wins it, but I really think Broduer and Giguere were better when you look at all the categories other than Wins and Games Played.

Lundqvuist better not get consideration over Giguere. Giguere was better pretty much across the board...except shutouts. Considering that Lundqvuist's 6 more SO's didn't give him a better GAA or SV% than Giguere, it's a mostly meaningless stat.

If the final 3 aren't Nabokov, Broduer, and Giguere then something's wrong. It's the 2 biggest workhorses this season with nice stats and the best statistical goalie of the year.
Minor details, but...

Where'd you get those numbers? Shouldn't Nabokov have won 59.7% of his starts (46/77)? Or are you talking about point% (100/77/2)=64.9%.

And is that based on games played or games started? Or maybe total minutes/60?

I'm just curious if there's somewhere I can find those numbers, and how the numbers are officially calculated. Because I've been doing them myself and wanted to make sure I was doing it right.

Either way, Giguere is actually better in that stat than Nabokov (and behind Huet). So Nabokov would be 3rd best.

same, add Nabokov
Yeah, him too. I didn't mention him because he and Brodeur were above the rest in my mind, I was only talking about the race for 3rd on.

Minor details, but...

Where'd you get those numbers? Shouldn't Nabokov have won 59.7% of his starts (46/77)? Or are you talking about point% (100/77/2)=64.9%.

And is that based on games played or games started? Or maybe total minutes/60?

I'm just curious if there's somewhere I can find those numbers, and how the numbers are officially calculated. Because I've been doing them myself and wanted to make sure I was doing it right.

Either way, Giguere is actually better in that stat than Nabokov (and behind Huet). So Nabokov would be 3rd best.


Yeah, him too. I didn't mention him because he and Brodeur were above the rest in my mind, I was only talking about the race for 3rd on.

Ahh, I did it myself in Excel, but I took W/(W+L+OTL). So it was only based on decisions. I guess Nabokov had 2 starts that he didn't get a decision. Looking at his game log, they both happened recently (3/25 and the last game of the season). Your number is probably a more accurate W% number.

Not Vezina related, but Giguere related.

Register:
The Giguere family celebrated Maxime's first birthday Friday.

"My son is doing great," Giguere said. "He's growing normally, actually more than normally. He's huge. He weighs close to 30 pounds. That's off the chart. Obviously, he's going to have issues with his right eye. We're not sure if he's ever going to see with it, but the main thing is he has one healthy eye. Everything else with him seems all right. We're really lucky to have him. He's a great kid."

30 pounds? At age 1? Quick, someone tell Allaire!

Not Vezina related, but Giguere related.

Register:


30 pounds? At age 1? Quick, someone tell Allaire!

The story forgets to mention that he's 10 pounds without his pads on.





Had to beat the other fans to the obvious jokes.

30 lbs? Damn, Giggys wife's boobs must be really sore.

The story forgets to mention that he's 10 pounds without his pads on.





Had to beat the other fans to the obvious jokes.

:handclap::handclap::handclap:

I think he should definitely be nominated, if not for that hernia issue which slowed him at the start and the ensuing minor injuries he easily would've won 40 games. His GAA and save percentage alone should put him there but you know how the hype train works. No way Luongo deserves it, he was very average after the all star break.

Screw Jiggy for Vezina it's all about Getzlaf...:amazed::bow:

I think he should definitely be nominated, if not for that hernia issue which slowed him at the start and the ensuing minor injuries he easily would've won 40 games. His GAA and save percentage alone should put him there but you know how the hype train works. No way Luongo deserves it, he was very average after the all star break.
That's exactly why I'm hesitant to ever mention Giguere in the "best goalie" conversations. Glove hand, puckhandling behind the net, athleticism. None of that matters. He's got a more cerebral approach to the game. It's almost like how Gretzky wasn't big, didn't skate fast, and didn't really have the best hands. As long as you're effective that's fine.

But if you can't play the games, that's a serious negative. And in each of the past 3 years, he's had some injury problems. My only real problem with him, because otherwise he's been one of the most consistently great goalies in the NHL.

Just to add more fuel to that games played argument, wasn't Kiprusoff a runner-up or second runner-up in 2003-04 with something like 38 games played? Granted, he set a modern-day GAA record and had an amazing SP% (I don't know the exact numbers), neither of which Giguere did this year, but the fact remains: he garnered significant consideration with a considerably smaller total of GPI than his fellow nominees.

Of course, if my recollection is wrong, please disregard my entire post. I don't think Giguere should/will win, but he's a deserving top-3 candidate. Also, he egged my house once (after he kicked my dog and put sugar in my gas tank!), so that's my reason for hating him. *******.

Screw Jiggy for Vezina it's all about Getzlaf...:amazed::bow:

That's what I'm saying! I was waiting for someone to say it. Getzlaf deserves the Vezina more than anyone.

No consideration!

He doesn't move in the net!
He just lets the puck hit him!


I realized how lucky the Ducks are to have JS after seeing Hiller after a few games. The Ducks have been fortunate to have quality back ups to JS that I really didn't know how fortunate the Ducks have been. Before Hiller there was Bryz. But Bryz was seasoned at the AHL for a few years. Before Bryz was Gerber. Both Bryz and Gerber are now starting goalies for the Yotes and Sens, respectively.

JS is able to suck the puck in. I didn't realize how easily he's able to do that only when Hiller couldn't control the puck and gave up too many rebounds. This trait is very important to penalty killing and getting new penalty killers on the ice. He's that cerebral that way. Heck, he even improved in the Shoot Out percentage!

JS is just as important to this team as Brodeur is to the Devils this year as the Ducks have Hiller as his back up. Hiller is fine, but not as consistent at JS and needs to be seasoned more.

Just to add more fuel to that games played argument, wasn't Kiprusoff a runner-up or second runner-up in 2003-04 with something like 38 games played? Granted, he set a modern-day GAA record and had an amazing SP% (I don't know the exact numbers), neither of which Giguere did this year, but the fact remains: he garnered significant consideration with a considerably smaller total of GPI than his fellow nominees.

Of course, if my recollection is wrong, please disregard my entire post. I don't think Giguere should/will win, but he's a deserving top-3 candidate. Also, he egged my house once (after he kicked my dog and put sugar in my gas tank!), so that's my reason for hating him. *******.
Yup. Runner up with 39 games played. http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1819615

I don't think anyone thought he was going to win it though. Interestingly enough, he broke Turco's record for lowest GAA, set the year before (in 55 games). Turco was a runner up that year just like Kiprusoff was the year after.

So that should discard any notion than 50-60 games isn't enough to merit consideration. Maybe not enough to win it in the face of similar stats over a 75 game period (Brodeur), but certainly enough not to be left off the ballot for lack of games played.

That's what I'm saying! I was waiting for someone to say it. Getzlaf deserves the Vezina more than anyone.

+1

Giguere, I agree with Kevin on this one, he kicked my dog too.

Vezina finalists announced. http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app/?service=page&page=NewsPage&articleid=361128

Brodeur, Nabokov.... and Lundqvist.

Giguere didn't get 3rd nominee. So what did it for Lundqvist? Games played? Wins? Shutouts? East Coast bias? It certainly wasn't GAA, SV% or win %.

Vezina always seems to favor wins (and goaltenders in the Eastern Conference) for some weird reason. You can lose games because your forwards can't score, which has nothing to do with goaltending. GAA & SV% seem like much better stats IMO.

Unless Giguere starts outpacing everybody by a 20% margin, he's never going to get serious consideration, and this just reaffirms it. It's not so much about Giguere deserving the third spot as it is about Lundqvist not deserving it.

Here's an interesting note. Brodeur will skip the World Championships because he doesn't have the will to play more hockey (http://www.nypost.com/seven/04222008/sports/devils/brodeur_too_tired_to_play_for_canada_107584.htm). There isn't really a direct quote, so it's a little dubious if he's actually "tired mentally." But I"m sure the gist of the story is fine.

But still. It certainly makes you wonder about how wise it is to play 70+ games like what seems to be required for Vezina consideration. I know it would certainly suck if you were attempting a playoff run and your goalie wasn't able to focus mentally because he'd played too much (Lunogo '07, I'm looking at you).

Maybe I don't want Giguere, or whoever the Ducks starter may be in the future, to win the Vezina.

I know it is late But he truly doesn't deserve any when Brodeur is still in the league.