Jaromir Jagr-M.I.A.(again) [Archive]

HockeyBasedNYC

12-07-2007, 07:24 AM

Bottom line is this, when the team is struggling and is on the outset of a bigger slump the leader of the team has to step up. That leader is Jagr - he has to start contributing more in games that the Rangers are DOWN or about to lose.

Thats the difference. 3 years ago if this team was in a tight spot Jagr put one in a changed the course of the game. Theres no follow through with his game now, and its ovbvious when he scores and is proactive the team most likely wins. He's got to start contributing in games where everyone else is flat.

The Rangers need help from EVERYONE up front, and they miss Avery (and that might be an understatement) but when things go awry they need a leader to step up and they havent had that from anyone besides Lundqvist this year.

Now that Lundqvist is struggling its time to pick him up.

I'm looking at Jagr to gain his form back before 08' - if thats not the case i think theres a very good chance this could be his last season in the NHL.

YMMV

12-07-2007, 07:31 AM

Little did you know he is in Washington cuddling with Nylander.

robruckus

12-07-2007, 07:34 AM

Jagr is the catalyst.When he is going,the Rangers have an extra bounce in their step.

Your original joke was corny and lame. As for this comment, no one else is to be held accountable then? Because Jagr is THAT good, it is his fault when the rest of his line doesn't show up? "Oh well Straka and Dubi played poorly because Jagr didn't have a good game." This is your logic? I don't care if Renney puts a pee-wee player on RW on the first line. That should have NOTHING to do with how the rest of this team plays. Every single player is responsible for their own game and own level of intensity. The problem with all you who love to blame Jagr is you fail to state the fact that BECAUSE he is one of the best players in the league, it is difficult for our team to win games without him. You just like criticize and say trade him for nothing. There's plenty of people to criticize on this team. Start opening your eyes to the rest of the team. Jagr isn't sitting on the bench pulling strings on the rest of the team and holding them back. This team has a PLETHORA of talent. If he's not having a good game, there should still be NO reason that this team doesn't score goals. Start opening your eyes and start handing blame out to everyone who deserves it, not just the one you've so conveniently made the scape goat.

PruBlue25

12-07-2007, 07:35 AM

Might be time for a new avatar

Already have one :)

ThirdEye

12-07-2007, 07:36 AM

PruBlue25

12-07-2007, 07:41 AM

Well don't forget, last year it wasn't until Shanny got concussed that Jagr came alive.

GarretJoseph

12-07-2007, 07:43 AM

lol

the same people will be singing jagrs name in the streets soon.

Melrose_Jr.

12-07-2007, 07:44 AM

Start opening your eyes and start handing blame out to everyone who deserves it, not just the one you've so conveniently made the scape goat.

Uhhhh, maybe you should read the GDT and some of the other threads on the board this morning. You'll be hard pressed to find someone who hasn't been "called out" by someone here.

If you DON'T agree with the Jagr sentiments, let's hear why, not commentary on those who have brought an argument to the table.

Shadowtron

12-07-2007, 07:48 AM

lol

the same people will be singing jagrs name in the streets soon.

I think you need to change it up. Clearly you've lost your mojo! :sarcasm:

PruBlue25

12-07-2007, 07:53 AM

I think the play against Carolina when Jagr just skates by the puck as it's passing him says all that there needs to be said.

#1. He's lazy. If you break your stick, you don't take your sweet ass time getting back to the bench.

#2. He doesn't care. If the puck is just gliding past you and you know no one has come off the bench to relieve you, and you know no one is behind you, then stop the damn puck. Don't just watch it pass by you and let the other team basically get a breakaway for a goal.

#3. He doesn't lead by example anymore. He doesn't shoot, he doesn't try his hardest, he doesn't care. In seasons past, if the team was down, Jagr would come one the ice with determination and score a goal, get an assist, and just dominate the game and the team would get rolling. He hasn't had that at all this year. He refuses to shoot too, which doesn't help with our pass first, shoot later team. Jagr is on track for 231 shots this season. Last season he had 324 and the season before that 368.

#4. He doesn't have it anymore. He's on track for 62 points, his lowest total ever.

#5. He's the reason for the Powerplay's woes. He no longer shoots the puck. Players on his unit prefer to pass him the puck for some reason because he's supposed to be the PP QB. However, unlike 04-05 when he'd shoot the puck from that circle at every chance he got and would score goals by the bunch, he himself shoots as well.

robruckus

12-07-2007, 07:54 AM

Uhhhh, maybe you should read the GDT and some of the other threads on the board this morning. You'll be hard pressed to find someone who hasn't been "called out" by someone here.

If you DON'T agree with the Jagr sentiments, let's hear why, not commentary on those who have brought an argument to the table.

Excuse me but what is the title of this thread? Is it Drury M.I.A.? Gomez? Prucha? Callahan? Straka? Dubinsky? No, that's right. My eyes work. It says JAGR. I don't see a thread that calling out everyone else on the team. I see one calling Jagr. If you read the rest of my post you would be able to see my defense of Jagr relating to his comment. Why don't I agree with all this Jagr bashing? As I posted in another thread...

2005-06 NYR 82 54 69 123 34
2006-07 NYR 82 30 66 96 26

Please, and I'm honestly asking you nicely, show me the other Ranger who has put up these numbers, or anything close the last two seasons. PLEASE. I'll save you the trouble of researching though.....THERE IS NO ONE.

PruBlue25

12-07-2007, 08:00 AM

Excuse me but what is the title of this thread? Is it Drury M.I.A.? Gomez? Prucha? Callahan? Straka? Dubinsky? No, that's right. My eyes work. It says JAGR. I don't see a thread that calling out everyone else on the team. I see one calling Jagr. If you read the rest of my post you would be able to see my defense of Jagr relating to his comment. Why don't I agree with all this Jagr bashing? As I posted in another thread...

2005-06 NYR 82 54 69 123 34
2006-07 NYR 82 30 66 96 26

Please, and I'm honestly asking you nicely, show me the other Ranger who has put up these numbers, or anything close the last two seasons. PLEASE. I'll save you the trouble of researching though.....THERE IS NO ONE.

The Jagr of this season isn't the same Jagr as those two seasons. If he was, we'd be in good shape.

Shadowtron

12-07-2007, 08:05 AM

The Jagr of this season isn't the same Jagr as those two seasons. If he was, we'd be in good shape.

Besides, how often can you look at a stat and get a full picture of a player? 05-06 was a banner year for Jagr, not doubt. But despite his some nice numbers, I'd hardly call 06-07 his finest with 07-08 is shaping up to be one of the worst of his career.

robruckus

12-07-2007, 08:08 AM

The Jagr of this season isn't the same Jagr as those two seasons. If he was, we'd be in good shape.

Fair enough. But since you're obviously a Prucha fan, wouldn't you say that if we had the Petr Prucha of two seasons ago we'd be in good shape as well? Is it because you're a fan that he does not get faulted? This is my problem. People around here have a genuine dislike for Jagr. Be it his laid back attitude or whatever, there is something that rubs people the wrong way and everyone tends to look past the flaws of everyone else on this team and single him out. While your avatar is creative, I do not believe it to be true. I guarantee you there is no one in this league who wants to win another cup as bad as Jaromir. You're entitled to your opinion and disliking him. Just remember there's plenty of others on this team who aren't performing as well.

SPG

12-07-2007, 08:15 AM

Melrose_Jr.

12-07-2007, 08:16 AM

You're entitled to your opinion and disliking him. Just remember there's plenty of others on this team who aren't performing as well.

I don't think it's dislike. I think it's more expectations that aren't being met. Is it realistic to ask Jagr to carry the team and be at the top of the scoring list at this point in his career? I guess that's it's own debate.

It's really up for the team to decide if they're going to find a way to help Jagr get going, or find a way to fix the problem without having the offense be Jagr-centric. I'm going with the latter.

SingnBluesOnBroadway

12-07-2007, 08:19 AM

PruBlue25

12-07-2007, 08:20 AM

Fair enough. But since you're obviously a Prucha fan, wouldn't you say that if we had the Petr Prucha of two seasons ago we'd be in good shape as well? Is it because you're a fan that he does not get faulted? This is my problem. People around here have a genuine dislike for Jagr. Be it his laid back attitude or whatever, there is something that rubs people the wrong way and everyone tends to look past the flaws of everyone else on this team and single him out. While your avatar is creative, I do not believe it to be true. I guarantee you there is no one in this league who wants to win another cup as bad as Jaromir. You're entitled to your opinion and disliking him. Just remember there's plenty of others on this team who aren't performing as well.

Oh I know that Prucha's played like crap. However, Jagr's a much more important part of this team than Prucha is. If you have a 100 point scorer and a 45 point scorer and the 45 point scorer is slumping and the 100 point scorer is doing great, you don't worry too much. If the 45 point scorer is playing his normal game and on his normal pace, but the 100 point scorer is well behind his normal pace, then it's reason to worry, no? When both suck (like right now), then well, you still gotta worry more about the 100 point guy than the 45 point guy.

Oh and btw, I far from dislike Jagr. Heck, I have a picture of him in my room :). However, he's played like crap, and he's playing like a bum (hence my signature). When he's playing like he should be, he's one of my favorite players, but he's not playing like that at all. When he lost his teeth and came out and got those two assists and he looked like he was just so determined to win and nothing else mattered. That's the Jagr I want to see. Does it really take him losing teeth to bring that out?

robruckus

12-07-2007, 08:28 AM

I don't think it's dislike. I think it's more expectations that aren't being met. Is it realistic to ask Jagr to carry the team and be at the top of the scoring list at this point in his career? I guess that's it's own debate.

It's really up for the team to decide if they're going to find a way to help Jagr get going, or find a way to fix the problem without having the offense be Jagr-centric. I'm going with the latter.

Is this even possible? I agree with you but I don't think that as long as he is on the ice every game this can ever happen. Renney and the rest of the team have too much respect for the player he has been his entire career. If he is out there everyone is always going to be trying to get him the puck and run the offense through him. It's sad to say that it might take an injury on his part for the rest of the guys to finally take things upon themselves, because as far as I can tell there's no way this offense isn't going to run through Jagr as long as he's on the ice.

PruBlue25

12-07-2007, 08:39 AM

Is this even possible? I agree with you but I don't think that as long as he is on the ice every game this can ever happen. Renney and the rest of the team have too much respect for the player he has been his entire career. If he is out there everyone is always going to be trying to get him the puck and run the offense through him. It's sad to say that it might take an injury on his part for the rest of the guys to finally take things upon themselves, because as far as I can tell there's no way this offense isn't going to run through Jagr as long as he's on the ice.

Jagr hasn't missed a game since he's been a Ranger. Quite funny since before that he'd always be missing games. I've always been curious to see how the team would play without him, but they've never had that opportunity.

dedalus

12-07-2007, 08:44 AM

The biggest issue I have with him is he needs perfect situations in order for him to succeed and produce, it seems. As a purported "great player" he's the one who is supposed to get others to succeed, not vice versa.
Agreed. He needs to be in the right mental place, and if he is, it really doesn't matter who his linemates are. (Kip-freakin'-Miller??????)

The problem is that he lets external forces influence, to a great degree, his internal state. This is what separates him from Messier, Lemieux, Gretzky, etc., which is to say, it's what separates the legendary player from the legendary talent.

He's disappointed this season. He wanted his friend re-signed and he didn't get it. He wanted the team to acquire a top FA defenseman and he didn't get it. I think he feels like he's not listened to and thus not seen as the center of the team. I think he's probably right; the team is beginning to look to the post-Jagr world. That doesn't sit well with Jagr and it seems to be shaping his play on any given night. Given this, IMO the team needs to decide, once and for all, what it wants to be. Is it Jagr's team driving for a Cup in his probable last season? If so, the team must function that way. Or is it a team building for the future with, I guess, Gomez as the centerpiece? (Not a good one, IMO.) This decision must shape policy because, even if the rest of the team is to be held responsible for the team's woes, the Rangers are not winning a Cup without Jagr in very good form. If they can't guarantee he'll be happy and playing in very good form by the playoffs, then what, really, is the point? A 2nd round loss? A conference finals loss?

robruckus

12-07-2007, 08:48 AM

Jagr hasn't missed a game since he's been a Ranger. Quite funny since before that he'd always be missing games. I've always been curious to see how the team would play without him, but they've never had that opportunity.

Well...except for those 06 playoffs against the Devils....buuuuut...I don't blame you if you erased that from your memory. Ha. And that team had no one else that could score so we were doomed. This current team would be interesting though.

Mrpuck

12-07-2007, 08:49 AM

robruckus

12-07-2007, 08:54 AM

Agreed. He needs to be in the right mental place, and if he is, it really doesn't matter who his linemates are. (Kip-freakin'-Miller??????)

The problem is that he lets external forces influence, to a great degree, his internal state. This is what separates him from Messier, Lemieux, Gretzky, etc., which is to say, it's what separates the legendary player from the legendary talent.

He's disappointed this season. He wanted his friend re-signed and he didn't get it. He wanted the team to acquire a top FA defenseman and he didn't get it. I think he feels like he's not listened to and thus not seen as the center of the team. I think he's probably right; the team is beginning to look to the post-Jagr world. That doesn't sit well with Jagr and it seems to be shaping his play on any given night. Given this, IMO the team needs to decide, once and for all, what it wants to be. Is it Jagr's team driving for a Cup in his probable last season? If so, the team must function that way. Or is it a team building for the future with, I guess, Gomez as the centerpiece? (Not a good one, IMO.) This decision must shape policy because, even if the rest of the team is to be held responsible for the team's woes, the Rangers are not winning a Cup without Jagr in very good form. If they can't guarantee he'll be happy and playing in very good form by the playoffs, then what, really, is the point? A 2nd round loss? A conference finals loss?

I agree with the majority of what you just said. I think that is alot of people's opinions. While I will not go so far to say that not re-signing Nylander or acquiring a defenseman is the reason he's playing like this I do understand this logic. I think these things might not have been what he liked but I'm not going to assume that when Jags is out there he's not giving it his all because Nylander isn't skating next to him. He's been in the business long enough and gone through new linemates enough to understand how it works. I do think this team is caught in a transition stage and it's really making players like Gomez and Drury struggle who don't want to go against Jagr or try and make him seem less important then he has been in the past. I also think these players have an honest genuine respect and appreciation for who he is and want him to lead this team. You're right also, this team is not going anywhere without Jagr. We can all only hope he reverts back to his old ways.

SPG

12-07-2007, 08:58 AM

If Renny had any balls he'd sit Jagr a game. Send a message to him and to the rest of the team that this lazy play will not be accepted.

I know it would never happen, at least not with Renny.
But it should be done.

I can see where you're coming from, but if it went that far, we can kiss our season goodbye. That would be counterproductive, IMO, and would cause more damage than any benefit the team would get out of it.

Kaktus

12-07-2007, 09:11 AM

I love this... TRADE Jagr ideas.... Does anyone really think that you can just sign sign any PPG UFA under 5M?

Rangers are 5-4-1 in last 10 games and dropped 2 at home. Big deal?

94now

12-07-2007, 09:13 AM

I think the play against Carolina when Jagr just skates by the puck as it's passing him says all that there needs to be said.
He did the right thing. The unwritten rule is NEVER PLAY THE PUCK NEAR YOUR BENCH WHEN GOING FOR THE CHANGE. Every 12 year old knows that. If you do, you will be called for Too Many Men much more often then not. That is so because you have no control over your teammates during the line change.
#1. He's lazy. If you break your stick, you don't take your sweet ass time getting back to the bench.
He was about to change timely. The only way to change is to go to the bench. He could have done that with more hustle, but that is what all veterans like.

#2. He doesn't care. If the puck is just gliding past you and you know no one has come off the bench to relieve you, and you know no one is behind you, then stop the damn puck. Don't just watch it pass by you and let the other team basically get a breakaway for a goal.
See above. There are certain rules one have to follow when going for the change. One of them the player that going off should not do anything else, but getting to the bench. The bench should care about situation developing and act accordingly i.e. yell, jump, wait, etc.

#3. He doesn't lead by example anymore. He doesn't shoot, he doesn't try his hardest, he doesn't care. In seasons past, if the team was down, Jagr would come one the ice with determination and score a goal, get an assist, and just dominate the game and the team would get rolling. He hasn't had that at all this year.
I agree with that. He tries, though. He lacks the support he use to have. No one can do it alone in hockey. That is the reason why any good player always praises those he played with.
He refuses to shoot too, which doesn't help with our pass first, shoot later team. Jagr is on track for 231 shots this season. Last season he had 324 and the season before that 368.
True. I think he hasn't got to his pre-injury condition. I think he lost his killer slap shot and Rangers do everything to hide that for the obvious reasons. In other words he has no confidence in his shot because he doesn't have it. Is that his fault? I'm not sure. All I know Renney and his staff no longer design the PP around Jarg's slapper. His wrister is still deadly, but there is nothing like accurate slap shot from the top of the circle.

#4. He doesn't have it anymore. He's on track for 62 points, his lowest total ever.
Agree. So what's the point? You state the obvious.

#5. He's the reason for the Powerplay's woes. He no longer shoots the puck. Players on his unit prefer to pass him the puck for some reason because he's supposed to be the PP QB. However, unlike 04-05 when he'd shoot the puck from that circle at every chance he got and would score goals by the bunch, he himself shoots as well.

You're being redundant. I know that you're upset, but your reasoning for Jagr non-existence come from heart, rather then from head. This board is known for being good with the latter.

Melrose_Jr.

12-07-2007, 09:21 AM

I love this... TRADE Jagr ideas.... Does anyone really think that you can just sign sign any PPG UFA under 5M?

I guess we're going to find out if Jagr doesn't hit his option triggers and becomes a UFA at the end of the season.

mergnemi*

12-07-2007, 09:21 AM

wanna know why the rangers have struggled the last 2 home games? because their games have yet to pass customs from canada!:sarcasm: i mean that's the only reason i see why the team stunk the last 2 games. the bottom line is this, if they want to win it all, they need to make a change; and not just for a change's sake. this team has no legit first line offensive threat (who knew???). gomez/shanny is a good second line. drury i think needs to be moved up; prucha has done nothing at all, and i know cally was hurt but other than opening night he hasn't done anything in the offensive department. you can't have your wingers on the 3rd line combine for 3 goals. mortgage the farm if they must, and get vinny lecavalier here pronto. a guy who is in his prime, shoots from anywhere, and plays with passion. as for jagr, someone said to me last night that he hasn't been the same player since he hurt his shoulder; i can see that, but mostly i think it's just lack of confidence. toughen up and make sh*t happen!

PruBlue25

12-07-2007, 09:26 AM

He did the right thing. The unwritten rule is NEVER PLAY THE PUCK NEAR YOUR BENCH WHEN GOING FOR THE CHANGE. Every 12 year old knows that. If you do, you will be called for Too Many Men much more often then not. That is so because you have no control over your teammates during the line change.
When the puck got to Jagr he was still at the blue line (on Carolina's side). When he was at the red line there wasn't even a player waiting to get on the ice. No one knew he was coming off. That was bad communication and Jagr was just lazy.

Take a look:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/whiplash27/jagr.jpg

The puck is already past him here. He's still in front of the Carolina bench. He's hardly even moving his feet either. You see every other player on the team leaning forward to skate hard, and Jagr is standing up straight.

billyH2O

12-07-2007, 09:44 AM

I'll say this. i picked up straka for my fantasy team and his +/- is KILLING me. I also have Rosival, both of them have stunk it up lately... if that adds anything to your team evaluations.

Granted, Rosival is your best Dman (Staal aside) and I wouldn't want to trade him

robruckus

12-07-2007, 09:45 AM

When the puck got to Jagr he was still at the blue line (on Carolina's side). When he was at the red line there wasn't even a player waiting to get on the ice. No one knew he was coming off. That was bad communication and Jagr was just lazy.

Take a look:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/whiplash27/jagr.jpg

The puck is already past him here. He's still in front of the Carolina bench. He's hardly even moving his feet either. You see every other player on the team leaning forward to skate hard, and Jagr is standing up straight.

Is it Jagr's fault too that Straka let the Carolina player blow past him? If I was Jagr, I'd assume that with Straka right there, and me not having a stick, that he's in good enough position to go back and play the puck. But yeah, it's all Jaromir's fault.

The Thomas J.

12-07-2007, 09:49 AM

Well don't forget, last year it wasn't until Shanny got concussed that Jagr came alive.

Last year was diffrent, Jagr was still recovering, or so we thought.

The Thomas J.

12-07-2007, 09:51 AM

I'll say this. i picked up straka for my fantasy team and his +/- is KILLING me.

Me too, I thought it was a no brainer.:shakehead

Bleed Ranger Blue

12-07-2007, 10:00 AM

94now

12-07-2007, 10:12 AM

The puck is already past him here. He's still in front of the Carolina bench. He's hardly even moving his feet either. You see every other player on the team leaning forward to skate hard, and Jagr is standing up straight.
As I said, he could have hustle more, but once the player made up his mind to go for the change, he should take himself out of ANY play and just go. Broken stick should be noticed by the bench and if they wanted JJ to stay, the new stick or new player should be coming as he approached. That was bench fault. I didn't see Polino last night. Where was he? May be his absence was to blame for the loss, not Jagr.

PruBlue25

12-07-2007, 10:14 AM

Brandon Dubinsky has 7 points playing 1st line minutes/PP time with Jaromir Jagr. Personally, I think its time to first end that experiment before we officially condemn Jagr.

And thats not a knock on Dubinsky, but he should be developing his game as a 3rd line center on this team.

If Renney is convinced that both Gomez and Drury will not work as Jagr's pivot, then maybe its time to slide Straka over to center and get another winger on that line.

and with that:
Prucha - Straka - Jagr (Czech connection)
Drury - Gomez - Shanny (PP Connection)
Hossa - Dubinsky - Callahan
Hollweg - Betts - Orr

Rozsival - Staal
Tyutin - Girardi
Mara - Malik

94now

12-07-2007, 10:17 AM

Brandon Dubinsky has 7 points playing 1st line minutes/PP time with Jaromir Jagr. Personally, I think its time to first end that experiment before we officially condemn Jagr.

And thats not a knock on Dubinsky, but he should be developing his game as a 3rd line center on this team.

If Renney is convinced that both Gomez and Drury will not work as Jagr's pivot, then maybe its time to slide Straka over to center and get another winger on that line.
Why Dubi should be demoted? He is not a goalie. We let 6 (six) goals to be scored on us. None of them is his fault.

PruBlue25

12-07-2007, 10:27 AM

Why Dubi should be demoted? He is not a goalie. We let 6 (six) goals to be scored on us. None of them is his fault.

I think it's a matter of trying to find something, if anything that will work. I think trying Straka as center and putting Drury to 2nd line wing could be a solution that may work.

After BRB's post I thought of these combos.
Prucha - Straka - Jagr \\ Maybe Jagr will wake up if he's playing with 2 of his country-mates and maybe Prucha will wake his ass up if he plays with Jagr

Drury - Gomez - Shanny \\ These three are money on the PP, try them at ES

Hossa - Dubinsky - Callahan \\ Cally and Duby will probably work very well together. Put Avery in Hossa's spot when he returns.

Hollweg - Betts - Orr \\ The current fourth line, when Avery returns, either sit Hossa or swap Hossa with one of the wings.

Rozsival - Staal
Tyutin - Girardi
Mara - Malik

Bleed Ranger Blue

12-07-2007, 10:40 AM

Why Dubi should be demoted? He is not a goalie. We let 6 (six) goals to be scored on us. None of them is his fault.

Its not just because of last night. His offensive game is clearly not yet polished at his young age. With that being said, he is centering the team's star on the first line. Its just not working.

But if you do want to get into recent performances, Dubinsky was dominated by Eric Staal and Mats Sundin the last 2 games. At 21, its tough to expect this kid to be going against the top centers in the league each night.

pruuu

12-07-2007, 10:44 AM

I like those lines. I hope we see line changes tonight. After two normal losses I'd saw whatever. But these were two consecutive blowouts AT HOME. Not acceptable and frankly very embarassing. I'd like to see Prucha with Jagr or at least Drury moved up and Dubinsky moved down. Mabye Renny will ge the hint of the scoring inefficency we have seen all season especially after the last two games. But yet again its over 20 games in and he hasn't gotten it yet.

I think it's a matter of trying to find something, if anything that will work. I think trying Straka as center and putting Drury to 2nd line wing could be a solution that may work.

After BRB's post I thought of these combos.
Prucha - Straka - Jagr \\ Maybe Jagr will wake up if he's playing with 2 of his country-mates and maybe Prucha will wake his ass up if he plays with Jagr

Drury - Gomez - Shanny \\ These three are money on the PP, try them at ES

Hossa - Dubinsky - Callahan \\ Cally and Duby will probably work very well together. Put Avery in Hossa's spot when he returns.

Hollweg - Betts - Orr \\ The current fourth line, when Avery returns, either sit Hossa or swap Hossa with one of the wings.

Rozsival - Staal
Tyutin - Girardi
Mara - Malik

RangerBoy

12-07-2007, 10:56 AM

Your original joke was corny and lame. As for this comment, no one else is to be held accountable then? Because Jagr is THAT good, it is his fault when the rest of his line doesn't show up? "Oh well Straka and Dubi played poorly because Jagr didn't have a good game." This is your logic? I don't care if Renney puts a pee-wee player on RW on the first line. That should have NOTHING to do with how the rest of this team plays. Every single player is responsible for their own game and own level of intensity. The problem with all you who love to blame Jagr is you fail to state the fact that BECAUSE he is one of the best players in the league, it is difficult for our team to win games without him. You just like criticize and say trade him for nothing. There's plenty of people to criticize on this team. Start opening your eyes to the rest of the team. Jagr isn't sitting on the bench pulling strings on the rest of the team and holding them back. This team has a PLETHORA of talent. If he's not having a good game, there should still be NO reason that this team doesn't score goals. Start opening your eyes and start handing blame out to everyone who deserves it, not just the one you've so conveniently made the scape goat.

Which was one was corny and lame?:)

Open your eyes.You think Jagr played well in the Carolina and Toronto games?He didn't need to take a shower after the game.He barely tried.

Renney pulled Jagr's PP unit off the ice after 30 seconds last night.Renney told them before Saturday's game to shoot the puck especially on the PP or he was pulling them off the ice.

Jagr is the leader.Jagr is the captain.Jagr is the best player on the team.Period.

Mrpuck

12-07-2007, 11:40 AM

I think it's a matter of trying to find something, if anything that will work. I think trying Straka as center and putting Drury to 2nd line wing could be a solution that may work.

After BRB's post I thought of these combos.
Prucha - Straka - Jagr \\ Maybe Jagr will wake up if he's playing with 2 of his country-mates and maybe Prucha will wake his ass up if he plays with Jagr

Drury - Gomez - Shanny \\ These three are money on the PP, try them at ES

Hossa - Dubinsky - Callahan \\ Cally and Duby will probably work very well together. Put Avery in Hossa's spot when he returns.

Hollweg - Betts - Orr \\ The current fourth line, when Avery returns, either sit Hossa or swap Hossa with one of the wings.

Rozsival - Staal
Tyutin - Girardi
Mara - Malik

I like these lines a lot as well. Drury/Gomez/Shanny had a good game as the 2nd PP unit. Leave them together for awhile and see if they gel.

blue2noise

12-07-2007, 11:43 AM

"call the cops, Sam"

PruBlue25

12-07-2007, 11:45 AM

"call the cops, Sam"

Did someone steal the Rangers' legs? or their heart?

NYR6814

12-07-2007, 11:55 AM

You know what? I've got the PERFECT solution to all of the Rangers' issues!

*drumroll*

We'll bench Jagr, our Captain. This way we can show him that he, for whatever reason, takes the blame for our recent goaltending woes, horrid defense, inability to score, or even shoot the puck on goal. Nevermind the fact that BRANDON DUBINSKY is centering JAROMIR JAGR AND MARTY STRAKA. This is TOTALLY Jagr's fault! This should send a GREAT message to everyone in the organization!

mike14

12-07-2007, 12:26 PM

I could be wrong but didn't Jagr ask for Dubi to be his centre, making it at least partly he's fault?

NYR6814

12-07-2007, 12:28 PM

I could be wrong but didn't Jagr ask for Dubi to be his centre, making it at least partly he's fault?

Considering that Dubi is probably the only center on the team that can play with Jagr and Straka, I'd say yes. But the point is that he has to play with a guy who belongs on the 3rd line.

TomLaidlaw

12-07-2007, 01:44 PM

I wanted to wait until today to post because of my high level of disgust with the entire teams effort outside of Colton Orr last night. Who in my mind was the only player who properly performed his role. (Fighting to change the momentum when it was 2-0) As for the topic at hand, I don't believe benching Jagr would give us the result we are looking for. Jagr doesn't seem to be someone who will react well to negative motivation. It might push him further down the path we don't want him to go down and cause him to go into a shell. Is it wise to depend this much on one player to get our offense going? Probably not, but that is where we are. This team is going as far as Jagr takes us. He isn't getting traded. Henrik might be able to steal a few games for us here and there but our offense is built around 68. The bottom line is that we aren't as pathetic without jagr as we were a few years ago against the devils in the playoffs, but we aren't winning the cup without him. Renney giving them a "Hard" practice before yesterdays game obviously didn't have the desired effect. Time to try something else.

bcrt2000

12-07-2007, 02:25 PM

Jagr's production has always depended on the quality of his centre.. he doesn't have a quality centre on his line, and hes not compatible with Gomez since they both want the puck. He'd work best with Drury, but Renney has barely let them play together. He needs to stick Drury on the first line with Jagr and Straka for a few weeks. Also, the last game that Drury did play with Jagr (and without Straka), they did have some good chemistry.

I ABSOLUTELY HATE IT when commentators say "Jagr can score goals when he wants to". NO HE CANT. If he could do that, he would have broken Gretzky's record of 92 goals in his prime. Hes double teamed often; hes lost a step at his age; he has groin, hamstring and hip injuries; players block his shots; the PP as a whole isn't working; the rest of his teammates aren't scoring which puts more pressure on him; when you see him floating around, he's either trying to stretch the defense as a strategy, or trying to disappear in the play to get open; when hes not skating hard to the bench its because hes dog tired from his shift and he doesn't have as much mobility because of his hip/groin issues.

Jagr is still contributing, his presence alone will make the other team put their strongest defenders against him, and he still draws tons of penalties. Its just that the PP is extremely broken this season, and you could probably account for the production difference solely based on how bad the PP has been without Nylander.

That being said, there are other facets of the game that were wrong last night. Malik and Rozi didn't play very well. I think Staal needs to go back on the top pairing with Rozi. Mara was also sorely missed. He brings a threat from the point and is able to muscle guys like Sundin. Finally, the most obvious problem is that the team doesn't have fight to get back in games without Avery. Either they need to figure out how to play without Avery or they need to sign Avery for a long term deal and hope to hell he doesn't get injured again.

RangerBoy

12-08-2007, 03:59 AM

In the last three games,Jagr has 0 points,is a -7 and has 7 shots on goal

Pathetic

HAPPY HOUR

12-08-2007, 05:34 AM

If is only move right now is to pick the puck of off the wall,protect it with his big arse, and then try to spin into the slot for a shot then his scoring drought will continue.

Remember. JJ used to score off the rush.

RangerBoy

12-09-2007, 04:48 AM

But the major issue is Jagr. Just as Rodriguez has to produce numbers representative of his elite status in order for his team to succeed, so must Jagr. His lack of production - seven goals, 14 assists in 29 games - is hobbling the Rangers.

"Physically, I feel great, but I understand that it's all about the numbers and always has been about the numbers," Jagr, who is pointless and minus-seven in the last three games, told The Post following yesterday's practice. "I'm trying my best.

"I give 100 percent every game. I don't know what to say about why it's not working for me. If I had the answers, I would use them.

"Things have changed with the way the team is and the way the game is played, but I have never made an excuse for myself, and I am not making any excuses for myself now. I'm just saying the way it is."

http://www.nypost.com/seven/12092007/sports/rangers/jaro_mired_rangers_need_jagr_to_get_in_s_759803.ht m

robruckus

12-09-2007, 07:56 AM

BigE

12-09-2007, 09:35 AM

The biggest issue I have with him is he needs perfect situations in order for him to succeed and produce, it seems. As a purported "great player" he's the one who is supposed to get others to succeed, not vice versa.

Nice point Singin'. You've been consistent in your opinion since Jagr got here and I think you're bang on in your assessment. Obviously it's one I share, and everyone knows it.

One of the reasons I've taken a break from this board over the last few months is because I grew tired of repeating myself (and defending myself against on the mindless fools drinking too much red and blue kool aid).

I don't like being the "I told you so" braggart, but some of you really deserve to eat humble pie right now.

ThirdEye

12-09-2007, 09:51 AM

I don't like being the "I told you so" braggart, but some of you really deserve to eat humble pie right now.

Last I checked the seasons not over yet

BobMarleyNYR

12-09-2007, 10:42 AM

Oh, and I'm not buying this "chemistry" **** anymore. Jagr and Straka are one of the best/one of the better players in the world (respectively). They've played in the pros for years... with their skill and experience, you adapt to other players. I think it's almost unethical to ask a 21-year-old kid to center them. Bottom line, they need to remember how much work it took to get to where the are and replicate it. No more mugs and pouty interviews, pick it up.

BigE

12-09-2007, 02:12 PM

Last I checked the seasons not over yet

Far from the point.

HeaveHo94

12-09-2007, 02:24 PM

True Blue

12-10-2007, 05:49 PM

Nice point Singin'. You've been consistent in your opinion since Jagr got here and I think you're bang on in your assessment. Obviously it's one I share, and everyone knows it.

We all knew a long time ago that there was a "happy" Jagr & an "unhappy" Jagr. His demeanor has been more of the latter this year. Could he be that unhappy about loosing Nylander? Could it be the team's new approach as a "defense-first" team? Could it be some other factor? Probably some of all of the above. Jagr has looked good in the past with the likes of Hossa and Isbister as his linemates. He played very well when Prucha was his linemate. And Rucinsky. As Fletch points out in another thread (and I believe that Singin' underlines here), Jagr's main issue is Jagr. Great players do not "need" anyone. They make other players play above their heads. I have said it for a while now, but it seems that with the new personnel and Renney's desires for a strict system, Jagr is the one sticking out like a sore thumb. The team that Sather gathered two years ago, suited him just fine. Last year, he has Nylander and Straka for most of the year. Now the team seems more suited for the way that Reney wants his team to play, but is it now suited for Jagr to be happy?

PruBlue25

12-10-2007, 08:37 PM

Ya know, I was thinking. Jagr in one of his interviews said who knows, maybe the Rangers have no Czechs after this season. With Jagr looking like he's not going to reach his points goal, I can see him, Straka, Malik being gone after this season. Rozsival is UFA so he may go. That leaves Prucha who it wouldn't suprise me if he were to be traded at some point.

BigE

12-10-2007, 09:08 PM

We all knew a long time ago that there was a "happy" Jagr & an "unhappy" Jagr. His demeanor has been more of the latter this year. Could he be that unhappy about loosing Nylander? Could it be the team's new approach as a "defense-first" team? Could it be some other factor? Probably some of all of the above. Jagr has looked good in the past with the likes of Hossa and Isbister as his linemates. He played very well when Prucha was his linemate. And Rucinsky. As Fletch points out in another thread (and I believe that Singin' underlines here), Jagr's main issue is Jagr. Great players do not "need" anyone. They make other players play above their heads. I have said it for a while now, but it seems that with the new personnel and Renney's desires for a strict system, Jagr is the one sticking out like a sore thumb. The team that Sather gathered two years ago, suited him just fine. Last year, he has Nylander and Straka for most of the year. Now the team seems more suited for the way that Reney wants his team to play, but is it now suited for Jagr to be happy?

And that is the constant contradiction that I've been trying to point out over the last few months: you cannot argue that Renney and co. need to keep Jagr "happy" while simultaneously arguing that Jagr is a team player and cares about nothing except winning. The two CAN'T go hand and hand.

I'll maintain my stance that this team won't truly be able to move forward until Jagr is gone (it may also mean that Shanahan has to go as well...).

vipernsx

12-11-2007, 08:27 AM

You couldn't find Jaromir Jagr with a program last night.

I dialed 911 to file a missing persons report.The 911 operator informed me that an individual has to missing for at least 24 hours before filing the report.My response was Jagr has been missing for 24 games.

If this continues,it might be time to put Jagr's picture on the back of a milk carton.

Missing

If found,contact Glen Sather at 212-465-6000 or newyorkrangers@thegarden.com

$8,360,000 reward

Handle with care.Very sensitive

Something like this

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/jdipetrillo/milkcartonmanny.jpg

Might be time for a new avatar

DUMP HIM NOW BEFORE HIS STOCK DROPS ANY FURTHER!!!

<presses rewind....presses play>
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=440727&page=3 ....And I'll keep saying it!

Blueblood 2

12-11-2007, 09:03 AM

TheMetalChick*

12-11-2007, 09:23 AM

He would be gone already, if other teams thought he was half as valuable now, as some of his fans do. A crippled Forsberg rental got more last February than Slats can get for Jagr in December this year.
:huh:Do you actually believe that? He is JAGR! :amazed:
The reason the Rangers shouldnt trade Jagr is not because they wont get enough back for him, its because doing so would be ridiculous.

robruckus

12-11-2007, 09:27 AM

:huh:Do you actually believe that? He is JAGR! :amazed:
The reason the Rangers shouldnt trade Jagr is not because they wont get enough back for him, its because doing so would be ridiculous.

QFT

And yes...the majority of these bashers ACTUALLY DO believe this. Which is what makes me hate reading this board every day.

dedalus

12-11-2007, 09:32 AM

And yes...the majority of these bashers ACTUALLY DO believe this. Which is what makes me hate reading this board every day.
One wonders if it's possible to suggest te benefits of trading Jagr without being labeled a "basher," "hater," or "not a real fan."

robruckus

12-11-2007, 10:15 AM

One wonders if it's possible to suggest te benefits of trading Jagr without being labeled a "basher," "hater," or "not a real fan."

One wonders if the anti-Jagr camp is capable of constructing an arguement based on something other than, "he's a quitter", "he's a whiner", "he's not a real captain", "I care more than Jagr". Ohh I don't know, something with some credibility to it? Something that's actually proveable? Something that isn't merely a disgruntled fan's opinion on a player in the midst of a scoring drought? I never said any of these people weren't real fans. But bashing and hating is exactly what they're doing. You won't find one intelligent, well thought anti-Jagr post that I've criticized. It's the one's I just spoke of that irk me.

Melrose_Jr.

12-11-2007, 10:25 AM

One wonders if the anti-Jagr camp is capable of constructing an arguement based on something other than, "he's a quitter", "he's a whiner", "he's not a real captain", "I care more than Jagr". Ohh I don't know, something with some credibility to it?

I've read a lot of them in several threads. I've joined the trade Jagr faction and have never used any of those 3 terms or seen them used in a competent argument.

It's a shame that the people with the loudest voices are perceived to be representatives of this board. You've got to put what's being said in the context of who's saying it.

robruckus

12-11-2007, 10:34 AM

I've read a lot of them in several threads. I've joined the trade Jagr faction and have never used any of those 3 terms or seen them used in a competent argument.

It's a shame that the people with the loudest voices are perceived to be representatives of this board. You've got to put what's being said in the context of who's saying it.

...which is my point and I said that. If anyone is making a credibility point that's fine. Take a look at the post above TheMetalChick that we were talking about. Is there any credence to that? No. That post is laughable. If someone believes that to be true they're blinded completely by their hatred for this man. THAT is what I'm talking about. Not people with actual reasoning.

McRanger

12-11-2007, 10:40 AM

We need to rebuild again. Fire Sather, trade everyone over the age of 26, and find a way to construct a Parise-Malhotra-Prucha first line. I think it's the only way to bring happiness to this board.

robruckus

12-11-2007, 10:46 AM

We need to rebuild again. Fire Sather, trade everyone over the age of 26, and find a way to construct a Parise-Malhotra-Prucha first line. I think it's the only way to bring happiness to this board.

Still wouldn't work. Everyone would complain about how the young kids we traded for aren't read for top line minutes and we'd need to go get some veterans. :D

hightide85

12-11-2007, 11:25 AM

hightide85

12-11-2007, 12:02 PM

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=452803

;)

Dagoon44

12-11-2007, 12:27 PM

Blueblood 2

12-11-2007, 12:54 PM

I am 100% in favor of dealing Jagr. I see some people blame him playing with Dubi but the kid is playing great and setting up Jagr. Jagr is guilty of just not shooting the puck and floating in figure 8's. Jagr is a real blue chip to deal while we have him. if winning teams need a snipper he is the man. Take a look at the Flyers and Foresberg he got them a lot and if we are going to win games 2-1 then i am all for it.

robruckus is going to call you laughable. Flyers got a top defense prospect, a young winger who has 10 points in only 17 games and a first and third round pick for a crippled, rental, UFA who may never play again. Since there appears no way Jagr is going to be available to us at half price next season, I wonder what the intelligent, realistic folks here believe would be a satisfactory return for a declining superstar who will be gone for nothing in July? He is by his own words "perfectly healthy". Even up for a rising superstar is obviously too much to ask. Think we should get more than Philly did, because he is healthy? How much more?

dedalus

12-11-2007, 02:31 PM

THAT is what I'm talking about. Not people with actual reasoning.
Fair enough. I'd suggest you look at the post to which I'm refering, however. MetalChick's statement is all-inclusive. It is directed at anyone who wishes to trade Jagr, sound reasoning or not. (And let's face it, her own reasoning isn't exactly sterling: One doesn't trade Jagr merely because "he's JAGR"?) You reply to and agree with her post without qualification, even going so far as to cite "this board."

As written, your post is as all-encompassing as MetalChick's, but I'm pleased to read your clarification here.

theMessiah1194

12-11-2007, 02:48 PM

Blueblood 2

12-11-2007, 03:18 PM

Jagr aint going nowhere. No big trade is going to happen, maybe Malik, but nothing drastic, we're just going to have to ride the season out with the team we got, personally I don't want Sather doing anything stupid just for this seaosn, ride it out, see what happens

I agree with you. Teams are trying to **** the Rangers. There is no fair market now, not for Jagr or any roster player. They look at our prospects and drool. Let them drool. Screw it. Get Jagr some feel good drugs if need be. It took a lot of hard work to build what we have now in the system and all with no help from trades. Slats should use the phone for messages only and smoke cigars.

Bleed Ranger Blue

12-11-2007, 03:28 PM

Jagr is who he is. You know he NEEDS to be happy to perform at a "Jagr-Level". Soo......do what it takes to make him happy.

Honestly, I would LOVE to go get a guy like Marc Savard in here. I wonder what it would take to get him?

Are you being serious about Marc Savard? If Jagr gets killed for having a bad attitude, wait until you get a load of Savard.

PruBlue25

12-11-2007, 04:19 PM

If you want Marc Sarvard go back about 8 years into the past and tell the Rangers not to trade him ;)

TheMetalChick*

12-11-2007, 04:50 PM

Fair enough. I'd suggest you look at the post to which I'm refering, however. MetalChick's statement is all-inclusive. It is directed at anyone who wishes to trade Jagr, sound reasoning or not. (And let's face it, her own reasoning isn't exactly sterling: One doesn't trade Jagr merely because "he's JAGR"?) You reply to and agree with her post without qualification, even going so far as to cite "this board."

As written, your post is as all-encompassing as MetalChick's, but I'm pleased to read your clarification here.

My reasoning is quite sterling, I assure you- it is just not included, specified, or elaborated upon here in this particular context. There is a difference! ;)

Crash the Net

12-11-2007, 04:54 PM

Anyone see the post-practice interviews put up today on the Rangers website?

Right at the very end they ask Jagr "so what about Washington..I mean, is there anything wierd about going back there, to your old team?"

He shrugs and goes "oh..what...what are the fans going to boo me everytime I touch the puck *smirk*.. oh I guess I better not touch the puck then *smile*, everytime I get it I'll dump it for sure"

At least he can joke now a days! :handclap:

BigE

12-11-2007, 04:58 PM

My reasoning is quite sterling, I assure you- it is just not included, specified, or elaborated upon here in this particular context. There is a difference! ;)

How the hell are we supposed to know?

1.) You're an Islanders fan. That more or less discounts anything you'd might say to begin with. ;) :p:

2.) You're taking a stance that is supported by the uneducated majority.

3.) And just like all the others in that uneducated majority, you offer no justification for your statement.

True Blue

12-11-2007, 05:34 PM

Fire Sather

12-11-2007, 05:48 PM

When the puck got to Jagr he was still at the blue line (on Carolina's side). When he was at the red line there wasn't even a player waiting to get on the ice. No one knew he was coming off. That was bad communication and Jagr was just lazy.

Take a look:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/whiplash27/jagr.jpg

The puck is already past him here. He's still in front of the Carolina bench. He's hardly even moving his feet either. You see every other player on the team leaning forward to skate hard, and Jagr is standing up straight.

I sure hope you don't expect people to take your opinions of Jagr seriously or worth anything considering your terrible avatar. :shakehead

Beyonder01

12-12-2007, 02:33 AM

Are you being serious about Marc Savard? If Jagr gets killed for having a bad attitude, wait until you get a load of Savard.

??

Savard is not even close to the Savard of old..

redfzn

12-12-2007, 02:42 AM

LOL.

Has anyone watched the latest Rangers On Demand video (Dec. 11: Post-practice interviews)? Jagr is too much.

http://rangers.nhl.tv

TheMetalChick*

12-12-2007, 05:26 AM

How the hell are we supposed to know?

1.) You're an Islanders fan. That more or less discounts anything you'd might say to begin with. ;) :p:

2.) You're taking a stance that is supported by the uneducated majority.

3.) And just like all the others in that uneducated majority, you offer no justification for your statement.

So you think that only the "uneducated minority" think that Jagr is a player worthy of having on ones team. And only the "uneducated minority" think that its still too early to dismiss the guy the way many are dismissing him here. Riiiight.

As far as "offering justification for my statement" goes, why would I put up gigantic posts on a Ranger board talking about Jagr? It is my opinion that its wrong of the Rangers to blame him for all their problems, and that it is wrong to dismiss a guy who is your captain (who you have on discount, nontheless! AND who has said that he wants to remain a Ranger, nontheless!) as if he is so easily replacable. He isnt. And, I offer to you the possibility that those thinking he IS a piece of garbage are the true minority when you look at the grand scheme of things- meaning, outside of a number of angry homers on your own board!

DruMez

12-12-2007, 05:38 AM

Crash the Net

12-12-2007, 05:42 AM

So you think that only the "uneducated minority" think that Jagr is a player worthy of having on ones team. And only the "uneducated minority" think that its still too early to dismiss the guy the way many are dismissing him here. Riiiight.

As far as "offering justification for my statement" goes, why would I put up gigantic posts on a Ranger board talking about Jagr? It is my opinion that its wrong of the Rangers to blame him for all their problems, and that it is wrong to dismiss a guy who is your captain (who you have on discount, nontheless! AND who has said that he wants to remain a Ranger, nontheless!) as if he is so easily replacable. He isnt. And, I offer to you the possibility that those thinking he IS a piece of garbage are the true minority when you look at the grand scheme of things- meaning, outside of a number of angry homers on your own board!

1. Nobody here is blaming him for all our problems.
2. Our fans can dismiss anybody on our team due to poor performance, or actions, whenever we please, C, A, or nothing. (hint hint: Flyers 4 suspensions...your Simon..., not saying Jagr did anything like that....but..)
3. The reason we have him for half is Washington and Jagr's problem, mainly Washington, it has nothing to do with us, we were just there to capitalize on it. It's not like just because we're only paying half his salary he's allowed to do whatever he pleases, be a -30, and get 50 points.

dedalus

12-12-2007, 05:58 AM

My reasoning is quite sterling, I assure you- it is just not included, specified, or elaborated upon here in this particular context. There is a difference! ;)
Of course there's a difference, but without the inclusion of any other reasoning I'm forced to conclude the one reason you offer is the only reason you have. No offense was intended, and the comment was directed toward robruckus not you. If his beef is with simplistic posts not "Jagr bashers," he should have been equally disdainful towards yours, agreed?

So you think that only the "uneducated minority" think that Jagr is a player worthy of having on ones team. And only the "uneducated minority" think that its still too early to dismiss the guy the way many are dismissing him here.
Frankly I think there are few "uneducated" people on this board; this board generally attracts knowledgable fans. There are, however, a number of biased ones on this particular issue. In that regard, there are biased posts on both sides of this issue. Robruckus is not wrong in pointing out that there are indeed those who despise Jagr for being "whiny, etc." (Robruckus is wrong in applying his condemnation so broadly.) At the same time BigE is exactly right in pointing out that there are quite a few here who simply love Jagr and are quite willing to overlook many, many things simply as a product of that admiration. When someone writes "he's JAGR" as her only reason for keeping #68, that's usually a good tell-tale of bias. It may not be accurate in your case, but you need not have written a giant post to make your position seem less biased. What you offered to BigE would have served just fine for me, and it's a mere two sentences: "It is my opinion that its wrong of the Rangers to blame him for all their problems, and that it is wrong to dismiss a guy who is your captain (who you have on discount, nontheless! AND who has said that he wants to remain a Ranger, nontheless!) as if he is so easily replacable."

Lastly, I think you'll find vanishingly few posters here who would describe Jagr as "a piece of garbage." The guy may generate frustration and anger, but they are surpassingly few who deny his talent and thus dismiss him as you seem to suggest here.

hightide85

12-12-2007, 08:48 AM

Of course there's a difference, but without the inclusion of any other reasoning I'm forced to conclude the one reason you offer is the only reason you have. No offense was intended, and the comment was directed toward robruckus not you. If his beef is with simplistic posts not "Jagr bashers," he should have been equally disdainful towards yours, agreed?

Frankly I think there are few "uneducated" people on this board; this board generally attracts knowledgable fans. There are, however, a number of biased ones on this particular issue. In that regard, there are biased posts on both sides of this issue. Robruckus is not wrong in pointing out that there are indeed those who despise Jagr for being "whiny, etc." (Robruckus is wrong in applying his condemnation so broadly.) At the same time BigE is exactly right in pointing out that there are quite a few here who simply love Jagr and are quite willing to overlook many, many things simply as a product of that admiration. When someone writes "he's JAGR" as her only reason for keeping #68, that's usually a good tell-tale of bias. It may not be accurate in your case, but you need not have written a giant post to make your position seem less biased. What you offered to BigE would have served just fine for me, and it's a mere two sentences: "It is my opinion that its wrong of the Rangers to blame him for all their problems, and that it is wrong to dismiss a guy who is your captain (who you have on discount, nontheless! AND who has said that he wants to remain a Ranger, nontheless!) as if he is so easily replacable."

Lastly, I think you'll find vanishingly few posters here who would describe Jagr as "a piece of garbage." The guy may generate frustration and anger, but they are surpassingly few who deny his talent and thus dismiss him as you seem to suggest here.

Are you Niles from Frasier? Didn't know you were a hockey fan ;)

HAPPY HOUR

12-12-2007, 10:33 AM

Are you Niles from Frasier? Didn't know you were a hockey fan ;)

If so then perhaps the MetalChick is Daphne.

HAPPY HOUR

12-12-2007, 10:44 AM

So you think that only the "uneducated minority" think that Jagr is a player worthy of having on ones team. And only the "uneducated minority" think that its still too early to dismiss the guy the way many are dismissing him here. Riiiight.

As far as "offering justification for my statement" goes, why would I put up gigantic posts on a Ranger board talking about Jagr? It is my opinion that its wrong of the Rangers to blame him for all their problems, and that it is wrong to dismiss a guy who is your captain (who you have on discount, nontheless! AND who has said that he wants to remain a Ranger, nontheless!) as if he is so easily replacable. He isnt. And, I offer to you the possibility that those thinking he IS a piece of garbage are the true minority when you look at the grand scheme of things- meaning, outside of a number of angry homers on your own board!

Guess you havn't read his rumblings about finishing his career in Pittsburgh to Mark Madden a few weeks ago?

Look, when your used to having Captains like Mark Messier and Brian Leetch, Ranger fans are not impressed by a "woe is me" attitude.

My opinon of JJ stands as a great player who is not playing great now, and a marginal (at best) leader who never really wanted to be the captain to start with.

txpd

12-12-2007, 10:45 AM

chosen

12-12-2007, 11:12 AM

Sometimes the simple solution is the overlooked one. I don't think it has anything to to with attitude. I think his game may just be slipping because of age and wear and tear.

If that is true, the team's immediate future has become poor. If it really is attitude then judging by Jagr's history, it won't get better until he is no longer a Ranger. This also brings us back to a poor immediate future.

The only good scenario would be that he is playing through an undisclosed injury that might get better.

If Jagr is done here, so much money is tied up in Gomez, Drury and Lundqvist that acquiring another major, expensive piece is going to be difficult.

HAPPY HOUR

12-12-2007, 11:18 AM

hightide85

12-12-2007, 12:12 PM

If so then perhaps the MetalChick is Daphne.

hahahaha

intellectual faction of hfboards in the hizzy!

BigE

12-12-2007, 12:39 PM

So you think that only the "uneducated minority" think that Jagr is a player worthy of having on ones team. And only the "uneducated minority" think that its still too early to dismiss the guy the way many are dismissing him here. Riiiight.

As far as "offering justification for my statement" goes, why would I put up gigantic posts on a Ranger board talking about Jagr? It is my opinion that its wrong of the Rangers to blame him for all their problems, and that it is wrong to dismiss a guy who is your captain (who you have on discount, nontheless! AND who has said that he wants to remain a Ranger, nontheless!) as if he is so easily replacable. He isnt. And, I offer to you the possibility that those thinking he IS a piece of garbage are the true minority when you look at the grand scheme of things- meaning, outside of a number of angry homers on your own board!

I believe that the uneducated majority would argue as you have. They feel strongly about something so they offer a statement, but know little of the subject matter and thus cannot offer any explanation.

What reason would I have to think that you know anything about the subject if all you offer is the same opinion (without support) that all of these other mindless lunatics offer?

I'm sorry, but I believe in people justifying their opinions within the contexts of a debate. Perhaps it's a personal flaw, but I expect that if you're going to take the time to say something in a discussion, you'd better back it up. Otherwise, why are you wasting our time? Why are you wasting your own time? In other words, what the **** is the point?

Fire Sather

12-12-2007, 01:58 PM

Just checking in from the Washington perspective. Reading this thread causes real flashbacks here. Whew.

Hockey is about "the will and the want" and I've seen Jags when he doesn't have that. Good thing you guys are winning consistant without scoring. IF the L's start to pile up, Jagr will end up on a spit.

No. Jagr isn't like that anymore. He wants to be here, loves NY, and won't pull that BS anymore.

Its the fans that are doing the turning here.

dedalus

12-12-2007, 02:04 PM

If so then perhaps the MetalChick is Daphne.

hahahaha

intellectual faction of hfboards in the hizzy!
Great. I suppose I'm now obligated to play the white knight and defend her.

"Unhand that MetalChick, you cad!" *stumbles over Barca lounger*

Blueblood 2

12-12-2007, 02:08 PM

Great. I suppose I'm now obligated to play the white knight and defend her.

"Unhand that MetalChick, you cad!" *stumbles over Barca lounger*

LOL Chivalry will get you slain but flattery will get you everywhere. :naughty:

BigE

12-12-2007, 02:08 PM

No. Jagr isn't like that anymore. He wants to be here, loves NY, and won't pull that BS anymore.

Its the fans that are doing the turning here.

Usually my sarcasm detector works just fine. Not sure what to make of this, though.

RangerBoy

12-13-2007, 04:00 AM

Kostik

12-13-2007, 04:34 AM

Who was Jagr yelling at last night in the 3rd period?The Caps iced the puck.Face off in their zone.Renney pulled Jagr's line and put out Gomez-Shanahan.Jagr goes back to the bench screaming at someone down the bench

John Dellapina was on with Dave Maloney last night.John painted a gloomy picture.Renney spends so much time trying to build up Jagr's confidence.Jagr is making Renney earn his money

Loved that change in the 2nd which led to the 2-2 goal.Didn't it appear Renney kept Jagr's line out there after the 2-2 goal?He didn't change them until after the puck was dropped

Saw that Jagr's yelling as well, but don't have a clue who he was yelling at.
However i'm not sold on bolded part. If Renney wants to build up Jagr's confidence, he should put Drury to his line. Having Dubi on JJ's line for so long is just stupid move from Renney.

newfish

12-13-2007, 04:49 AM

I was also watching the game, and yes I saw Jagr yelling at someone too. I think Shanny should be the captain of the Rangers. He has more guts and courage in his finger then Jagr has in his whole body, Jagr is a moody *******.

RangerBoy

12-13-2007, 05:28 AM

Saw that Jagr's yelling as well, but don't have a clue who he was yelling at.
However i'm not sold on bolded part. If Renney wants to build up Jagr's confidence, he should put Drury to his line. Having Dubi on JJ's line for so long is just stupid move from Renney.

That's the word.Renney spends so much time trying to build up Jagr's confidence because Jagr is very fragile.Dellapina is around the team everyday.He has covered the Rangers for 12 years.I would trust what he says on this subject

Mike Milbury said the same thing on TSN in October.I thought he was full out it but you realize Milbury does have his best friend(Gordie Clark)working for the Rangers

Fire Sather

12-13-2007, 11:23 AM

Usually my sarcasm detector works just fine. Not sure what to make of this, though.

No sarcasam. Everyone blames Jagr for turning moody when things aren't going well. Well, I haven't seen anything other than frustration from Jagr this season..

However, the people doing the turning is most everyone on this board.. wanting to trade/get rid Jagr because he is struggling right now, after hes been our best foward for 2 seasons.. bashing him for not caring, then bashing him when he shows emotion...

otto1219

12-13-2007, 11:34 AM

let's be realistic here, if jagr doesnt look like he's going to hit his mark, what would you guys expect in a fair trade?

i personally see it going down before the deadline, the team just cant be about double j anymore.

at this point i would take a 1st and a decent prospect. anyone else?

BigE

12-13-2007, 12:07 PM

No sarcasam. Everyone blames Jagr for turning moody when things aren't going well. Well, I haven't seen anything other than frustration from Jagr this season..

However, the people doing the turning is most everyone on this board.. wanting to trade/get rid Jagr because he is struggling right now, after hes been our best foward for 2 seasons.. bashing him for not caring, then bashing him when he shows emotion...

Individuals on this board may accuse Jagr of whining and pouting when things are not going well. If you're going to "blame" someone you have to have something to blame them for: e.g., you could construct an argument that much of the team's lack of scoring can be blamed on Jagr.

Let's be clear: "showing emotion" and whining are two totally different things.

Jagr has a track record of being a whiner and pouter; when things don't go his way, he packs it up. He did it in Pittsburgh, he did it in Washington, and he's done it here on occasions.

I reminded everyone early this year about Aaron Ward: the guy was a consummate professional and a team leader (with two cups on two different teams to his credit!). Why do you think he left? And why do you think Jagr suddenly came alive after he was gone? Yes, Sean Avery was instrumental in our success last season, but catering to Jagr's every whim was just as crucial.

I'll maintain my stance (and I will repeat this ad nausea) that until we get rid of Jagr, this team will not be able to build itself into a true contender. First and foremost it needs to be a TEAM. Too much of the focus is on Jagr; from the coaches time, to the puck distribution, to the important game minutes. And sure, that can work for a while, but even when that gets old he finds a way to pack it in, and when that happens our chances go down the drain because we're simply not prepared to play any other way.

HAPPY HOUR

12-13-2007, 12:55 PM

If getting rid of JJ is the answer then it has to be now. We have to get something in return and not let him walk away after this season.

dedalus

12-13-2007, 03:20 PM

However, the people doing the turning is most everyone on this board.. wanting to trade/get rid Jagr because he is struggling right now
*Sigh* Why do these reductionist claims keep popping up? There are a number of people here who have advocated trading Jagr even in the best of times. Yes, that includes his "Hart winning" season.

Fire Sather

12-13-2007, 04:25 PM

*Sigh* Why do these reductionist claims keep popping up? There are a number of people here who have advocated trading Jagr even in the best of times. Yes, that includes his "Hart winning" season.

Yeah? Funny I don't remember seeing any of it... Not sure why the quotes are around "Hart Winning" either..

Theres no reason to deal Jagr. I guess people just want to pack it in this season if they want Jags out..

People don't realize the effect trading a star player has on a team, this isn't fantasy hockey. You don't trade a player like that off a contending team.. that goes for all 3 seasons.

BigE

12-14-2007, 01:18 PM

I can point to at least five regular posters within this thread that have acknowledged the long-term benefits of trading Jagr as early at 2 1/2 years ago. If I search hard enough, I can probably find the relevant supporting posts.

Dedalus makes a good point: you're falling back on these generalizations far too often. Just because you "don't remember seeing any of it" doesn't mean it didn't happen? Making the broad statement in regards to the general community's understanding of "trading star players" is somehow supposed to apply to us?

No, I'll say with all due respect that you are wrong: there are plenty of good reasons to trade Jagr and they have existed for quite some time.

Allow me to play devil's advocate to your argument: let's say we do trade Jagr. Are we THAT worse off? In the last 13 games, the man has 5 points, a combined -5! Over that stretch we're 6-6-1. Stats mean very little in the grand scheme of things, but they can help to set the context for a discussion.

If I am right, and stats are at the very least good for setting the backgrond to a discussion, quite a good argument could be made for why Jagr should be traded now; and subsequently, so that we could, in fact, be better off.

RangerBoy

12-14-2007, 01:36 PM

Rags225

12-14-2007, 01:42 PM

The Rangers at a crossroads with their team.They have so many players who are up for new contracts.Especially players such as Jagr,Shanahan,Straka,etc.Coming out the lockout,the team wasn't supposed to be a contender.With every move they make,the team goes farther and farther away from 2005-06 Czech posse Rangers.Does Jagr fit on the Rangers anymore-past this current season?You tell me.I don't think so.................

I don't. Renney is trying to make the Europeans play a North American style game which is not suited for them. That is not their strengths or they way they have played throughout their career.

either Renney needs to let them have more freedom and change the way the team plays a little bit, or some trades need to happen. I personally would like to see Renney give them more offensive freedom and stop worrying about defense all the time.

dedalus

12-14-2007, 02:36 PM

either Renney needs to let them have more freedom and change the way the team plays a little bit, or some trades need to happen. I personally would like to see Renney give them more offensive freedom
If memory serves, a couple of weeks ago one of our Czech-reading posters translated an interview in which Jagr, when asked the question, states that he has no defensive responsibilities.

Maybe someone can re-post or bump it if they recall the thread.

Rags225

12-14-2007, 02:56 PM

If memory serves, a couple of weeks ago one of our Czech-reading posters translated an interview in which Jagr, when asked the question, states that he has no defensive responsibilities.

Maybe someone can re-post or bump it if they recall the thread.

I was meaning the team in general not just Jagr. But I do remember that interview. Sorry for the confusion.

vcx

12-14-2007, 03:17 PM

vcx

12-14-2007, 03:20 PM

No. Jagr isn't like that anymore. He wants to be here, loves NY, and won't pull that BS anymore.

Its the fans that are doing the turning here.

In Denial?

Hey at one point we were happy to see Rex back (the 2nd stint, the 3rd stint not so much), but even we saw him slipping with his play and saw his time as a Penguin was coming to an end (for the 3rd time lol). Sometimes you just gotta see it for what it really is. Age has caught up to Jagr, i still hope he can turn it around.

mucker*

12-14-2007, 11:49 PM

I think this has a lot to do with Drury, Shanahan and Jagr being on the same team.

Two years ago Jagr was unquestionably the leader of this team, and he played to that role, almost winning a Hart Trophy. Then came Shanny, and we all saw Jagr's play turn for the worse.

Now we have Drury, and Jagr's play is diminishing by the minute.

We have too many leader type players on this team, and not enough followers. Somethings gotta change for next year
Drury is a 3rd liner.
Jagr is 1st liner and 1st unit PP.
If the Rangers DID not sign Shanny or Drury we'd be saying it's due to no supporting cast.
Remember in 2006 the complaint was "Jagr has too much without enough help"
Even last year we had poor secondary scoring.
This is why Drury and Gomez, SHanny were supposed to help.
It NEVER has been a one man offense.

Well don't forget, last year it wasn't until Shanny got concussed that Jagr came alive.

Last year the Rangers struggled to score goals because they lacked a secondary scoring unit.
YOU NEED talent.
I can't believe people are blaming Jagr's woes on other good players.
If you had no other supporting cast Jagr would have too much of a role and the other defense could simply shadow him and single him out.

mucker*

12-14-2007, 11:50 PM

Here's my question

1) Is this just a by product of Jagr and the lack of chemistry since DAY ONE with Gomez?
-Think about it, with Straka being injured, he has played with Dubinsky, a 3rd liner.
-Jagr while talented isn't 29, he needs a better 1st line mate.

2) Is Jagr just old?

3) Is Jagr just pouting for whatever reason?

All/some of these answers?

dedalus

01-08-2008, 06:47 PM

Yeah? Funny I don't remember seeing any of it.
Then your memory is short, or selective, or you weren't paying attention. I, for one, had several urinating contests with Son of Steinbrenner over exactly this issue. I advocated at the time, against SOS's chimp-like shrieks, that Jagr should be traded because the team looked to be going nowhere in the long-term and Jagr's value would never be higher. I was not the only one who argued thus despite SOS's declarations that Jagr could fulfill his contract playing at exactly the level he was.

Not sure why the quotes are around "Hart Winning" either..
Because Joe Thornton won the Hart even though Jagr should have.

Theres no reason to deal Jagr. I guess people just want to pack it in this season if they want Jags out.
Or they want to begin establishing something for future seasons and see Jagr as the best means of doing so.

People don't realize the effect trading a star player has on a team, this isn't fantasy hockey.
I'm sure all those advocating a trade of Jagr are grateful. No doubt they were all clueless how hockey works.

You don't trade a player like that off a contending team.
Agreed. Is this a contending team?

Fire Sather

01-08-2008, 08:28 PM

[QUOTE=dedalus;11948515]Then your memory is short, or selective, or you weren't paying attention. I, for one, had several urinating contests with Son of Steinbrenner over exactly this issue. I advocated at the time, against SOS's chimp-like shrieks, that Jagr should be traded because the team looked to be going nowhere in the long-term and Jagr's value would never be higher. I was not the only one who argued thus despite SOS's declarations that Jagr could fulfill his contract playing at exactly the level he was.

I don't know how to do the multiple quoting so here goes..

IF anyone wanted to trade Jagr while he was dominating back in 05/06 then.. without being rude, they have some destorted thinking. Jags was leading us to our first playoff birth in 7 years, but you wanted to trade him because you thought it wasn't our time and his value was high? When Staal is a top defenseman in 4 years, do you want to trade him for "futures" because his value will be high? You don't run a franchise that way, it doesn't make any sense. If the team was out of contention, then sure. But we've been a WINNING TEAM for the whole time Jagr was here, so at no point should he have EVER been shopped..

Yes, it is somewhat of a clueless thought to want to whisk Jagr off the team.. do you not realize how that would effect the lockeroom and the state of the franchise? that goes for the whole time Jagr was here...

is this a contending team? Sure it is. Have a top quality goaltender, world class fowards and a defensive system that has worked. I'm not throwing in the towel like half the people here just to get "prospects" that may never pan out.. Our last purging was the begining of our turn around but none of the young players we got ever panned out

Coldshot

01-08-2008, 11:17 PM

I'll start off by stating my dislike for Jagr from day one, back in his days in Pittsburgh where he whined about giving up the Captain's C to Lemieux in 2000. Since then, I've lost a lot of respect for him. But I'll speak as objectively as possible here...

While I don't like Jagr, he's a great player. A franchise, marquee talent that you don't find too often. Has he had some help to get there? Yeah, a lot of help. That guy Lemieux was decent, taught him the ropes and what not.

However, my problem with Jagr is that he was kept in check by guys like Lemieux and Francis, who were great players and leaders for all of those years. Once Jagr took over as Captain when Francis was signed by Carolina, Jagr stepped into the role as the head honcho, and got so used to it that he never wanted to give it up. He's gotten used to that spotlight, that attention, that catering, and that's how it has to be for him to be comfortable, which in turn makes him productive. The problem there is that a true leader cannot be like that. A true leader has to play at both ends of the ice. A true leader should not need certain players around him for him to be productive. A true leader makes the players around him better, and Jagr is more than talented enough to be able to do this, just even by giving it his all offensively. Now, it seems that he's half-assing on both sides of the puck. Whether it's that he's old, he's hurt, or he's just being a malcontent because Nylander's gone, it's unacceptable. Sure, the best of players are going to go into slides where they have some major down time. It's one thing to do that, and then it's another to not show up just because one of your best friends wasn't resigned by the team.

Let's take a look back in the day. What was Michael Nylander before he played with Jaromir Jagr? A 2nd line center. What is Michael Nylander now in Washington? A 2nd line center. He might be playing on their first line, but he's sure as hell not putting up those same numbers he put up playing with Jagr. So let's stop it with this "Nylander is gone, it's affecting his game" crap.

Jagr won multiple Art Ross Trophies without Nylander.

It's time for Jagr to pick it up, there is no excuse for it. It's cut and dry. Either he's too old and has lost it, he's being a malcontent, or he's hurt. There is no grey area. I'd rather trade him now and get what we can get for him and try to start over. This team held onto 1994 for way too long, trying to keep that magic alive, and it just didn't work. This time, it hasn't even happened, and we're trying to keep 06 and 07 alive with Jagr, and it's just not going to work. I'd rather not make the same mistake twice.

At least if we're going to lose, it's going to be while watching a young, hungry, hard-working team with a solid core and a ton of potential. Not watching a bunch of overpaid individuals and one whiney superstar captain who's on the downslide of his career and not happy because his boypal wasn't brought back.

Not happy about it, JJ? Blame Mikey, he's the one who wanted a ridiculous amount of money until he was like 38 years old. This is not baseball where players ask for lucrative contracts at 35, roid up, and post ridiculous numbers in the twilight of their careers.

The Thomas J.

01-08-2008, 11:29 PM

I honestly dont think JJ is pouting, I think he may have a back issue, I also think he never fully recovered from the shoulder operation, remember he lost alot of weight, mostly musscle, he doesn't look as strong on or off the puck anymore, that combined with age may have caught up to him, I don't think he is "done" though, that still remains to be seen.

hockeyviper87

01-08-2008, 11:37 PM

Drury is a 3rd liner.
Jagr is 1st liner and 1st unit PP.
If the Rangers DID not sign Shanny or Drury we'd be saying it's due to no supporting cast.
Remember in 2006 the complaint was "Jagr has too much without enough help"
Even last year we had poor secondary scoring.
This is why Drury and Gomez, SHanny were supposed to help.
It NEVER has been a one man offense.

Last year the Rangers struggled to score goals because they lacked a secondary scoring unit.
YOU NEED talent.
I can't believe people are blaming Jagr's woes on other good players.
If you had no other supporting cast Jagr would have too much of a role and the other defense could simply shadow him and single him out.

sorry, but that is absolutely not true.....do you watch the games?.....and have you seen him play before on other teams?

dedalus

01-09-2008, 06:44 AM

Jags was leading us to our first playoff birth in 7 years, but you wanted to trade him because you thought it wasn't our time and his value was high?
1. His value wasn't just high; it was at its highest. For anyone with eyes to see, he was not going to repeat the spectacular success of that season; therefore his return rate could only go down. This is one area where your comparison to Staal falls. In four years Staal will be in the first stages of his prime years not moving into the slide of his talents.

2. Again for anyone with eyes to see, the team wasn't in contention. Lest we forget, the team was a 6th seed that season, with a record padded by shootout wins, the proof of which came with its pummeling in the first round.

Two years later the team is still not "in contention" if by "in contention" you mean anything other than "the team can make it into the playoffs."

When Staal is a top defenseman in 4 years, do you want to trade him for "futures" because his value will be high?
I hope the comment above is sufficient answer to this comparison. If not I can offer other reasons your comparison isn't valid.

If the team was out of contention, then sure. But we've been a WINNING TEAM for the whole time Jagr was here, so at no point should he have EVER been shopped.
I'm going to guess that our disagreement stems from different perceptions of what constitutes "in contention." For me that phrase means the team can make a viable run at a championship. Your standard seems less stringent; it seems to be only that the team be above .500 and thus "a WINNING TEAM."

Your standard is your own, of course, but we can both names lots and lots of merely "winning teams" that have only a fool's hope of a championship. So if the team has no effective hope of a championship, does not appear to have an effective hope during the tenure of a high-value player, and has the opportunity to acquire pieces that may very well put it "into contention" (by my standard), why on earth would it not seek to do so? Because merely making the playoffs is satisfactory? Because it's better to lose that high-value asset for little or nothing later on? Especially since there was no replacement in the system for that asset (nor is there now)?

Yes, it is somewhat of a clueless thought to want to whisk Jagr off the team.
"Whisk!" My what rhetoric!

This is exactly what I meant when I referred to reductionist rhetoric in my first response to you.

.do you not realize how that would effect the lockeroom and the state of the franchise? that goes for the whole time Jagr was here...
Asking the rhetorical question again doesn't make an argument, FS. Yes. Those of us who have advocated trading Jagr are fully cognizant of the ramifications of such a move. Do you understand that we place value in something other than the short term performance of the organization? If you value the club for the long haul, you have one eye to the future and move pieces accordingly.

is this a contending team? Sure it is. Have a top quality goaltender, world class fowards and a defensive system that has worked.
I'd offer that they have formerly world class forwards who will only be more tired and battered by the playoffs when they are most needed. I'd offer that the system is good in theory but apparently not consistently implemented, and thus of little relevance in fact; I'd offer that the goalie, while brilliant for periods, is showing a propensity for periods of mediocre play.

Given those things, no I simply don't believe this is a contending team (by my standard). Nor did I believe it last year, nor the year before. While I would dearly love to be proven wrong (living in central Jersey and thus surrounded by Devil and Flyer fans), I was right the last two seasons, and I fear to be right again. What's more, with impending personnel losses, next year looks to be worse when the assets of a Jagr trade might have made it better.

I'm not throwing in the towel like half the people here just to get "prospects" that may never pan out.. Our last purging was the begining of our turn around but none of the young players we got ever panned out
Well that seems to be an argument for two things:
1. Trading away all or most prospects and picks because they may never pan out.
2. Enacting your name and firing Sather for his failure in acquiring prospects who DO pan out.

TrappedinNJ

01-09-2008, 07:05 AM

I have to agree with the above post (dedalus).

Though I certainly would not have agreed to trade Jagr back in '05-'06. So, on my part it is hindsight. I was skeptical of Jagr at first, but I was soo happy to make the playoffs at that time, I felt he was a real contributor, and possibly a way to the Cup.

Then the infamous Gomez/shoulder thing happened........:shakehead

So last year we some how turned it around late in the season, and displayed what I would term a respectable performance in the playoffs. Making it to the 2nd round: progress.

With the aquisitions this summer, I sensed a departure from the Jagr strategy (for lack of a better term), but I think the problem we are having now, is that we have not fully embraced that departure and we are suffering from somehting of an identity crisis. And I think the longer we wait to unload Jagr, the more it is going to be detrimental. He cannot carry us.

I would bundle him with Straka (who I love BTW), just to make him more attractive. I think we need a big, nasty 25-goal garbage man. How to make that happen as far as who is available is certainly beyond me......:dunno: