Re: Brady Murray...

There was a special feature thing on sportsnet on the kids with Canadian roots playing for team USA.... Zach Parise (Canadian father), Patrick Eaves (born in Calgary, Alberta), and of course Brady Murray (Canadian).

They asked them about playing against their "Canadian counterparts" and Murray response was something like... "I hope Canada realizes that they should have given me the chance to play for them."

What the hell.

Was that not what the selection process was about?

Because he said that he gave Hockey Canada a call to see if he'd make the team and they said that it would difficult, but he'd have to compete for a spot... and then he called USA Hockey and they gave him a roster spot... something he called a "sure thing".

Anyways... that just bugs me... the fact that he chose to play for USA because he wasn't good enough to play for Team Canada.

I don't care if it's his last opportunity to play in the WJC... he just took advantage of the situation and that annoys me. There's an actual American kid out there that should have been selected to play for the team... someone who didn't have a crack at it with another country.

There's an actual American kid out there that should have been selected to play for the team... someone who didn't have a crack at it with another country.

good point. maybe schremp, for instance ;)

The only people complaining about this issue are Canadians. Why is that? Murray probably wouldn't have made the Canadian team, so what's the big deal? He's welcome on the U.S. side, and nothing's going to change that. Can we please drop this?

There was a special feature thing on sportsnet on the kids with Canadian roots playing for team USA.... Zach Parise (Canadian father), Patrick Eaves (born in Calgary, Alberta), and of course Brady Murray (Canadian).

They asked them about playing against their "Canadian counterparts" and Murray response was something like... "I hope Canada realizes that they should have given me the chance to play for them."

What the hell.

Was that not what the selection process was about?

Because he said that he gave Hockey Canada a call to see if he'd make the team and they said that it would difficult, but he'd have to compete for a spot... and then he called USA Hockey and they gave him a roster spot... something he called a "sure thing".

Anyways... that just bugs me... the fact that he chose to play for USA because he wasn't good enough to play for Team Canada.

I don't care if it's his last opportunity to play in the WJC... he just took advantage of the situation and that annoys me. There's an actual American kid out there that should have been selected to play for the team... someone who didn't have a crack at it with another country.

I don't mind the fact that Murray is playing for the USA because he does have US Citizenship. He is an American....but the way he went about claiming his spot for Team USA was wrong.

If Murray had any intention to play for Canada, which he did (he went to the summer camp), he should have known that he was not going to be handed a spot on a silver platter like he was for Team USA, who has a very different U20 program than Hockey Canada.

Calling Hockey Canada to "see where he sat" with the U20 team, and most of all to hope that Canada would tell him he would make the team without trying out, was a very selfish move on Murray's part. If he had have simply called to say, "Sorry guys, I have decided to play for Team USA", it would have been fine......but using Hockey Canada's system of selection camps as a reason (I like to call it an excuse) to play for Team USA rubs me the wrong way.

Murray probably wouldn't have made the Canadian team, so what's the big deal?

I disagree with that. I think he would have Colliton's spot had he tried out for Team Canada.

Calling Hockey Canada to "see where he sat" with the U20 team, and most of all to hope that Canada would tell him he would make the team without trying out, was a very selfish move on Murray's part.

I don't see the point of this complaining. The kid had options because of his citizenship that others don't have, and wanted to make sure he could play. He gave Canada first shot, and when they wouldn't commit, he went to Plan B who would. What is the problem? I just see it as a kid motivated enough to make sure he gets the chance to play the game.

He gave Canada first shot, and when they wouldn't commit, he went to Plan B who would. What is the problem?

Hockey Canada never commits to anybody unless you are coming from an NHL team, and even that isn't a guarantee (I'm sure Canada cut one NHL U20 player a few years back). If Brady Murray expected at any time for Hockey Canada to tell him he had a spot on Team Canada before the selection camp, he was out of his mind.

The right thing for Murray to do, would be to simply say that he chose to play for Team USA because he can. For him to say something like, "I hope Canada realizes that they should have given me the chance to play for them."....that makes him even more insane because being invited to the selection camp is Canada's way of giving players a chance to play for them.

Brady Murray did not want a chance to play for Canada, he wanted a guaranteed spot on a team that doesn't guarantee spots for anybody, with the exception of NHL players. That is the problem.

BRADY MURRAY:
Brady Murray could be the ambassador of the World Junior Championship. With ties to Switzerland, Sweden, Canada and the United States, the forward, who currently plays at the University of North Dakota, is proof of just how small the world can be

Much like Alexander Steen, Murray's story starts in Manitoba, Canada where he was born. But soon Brady's father, Andy, was packing the bags for Switzerland where he spent four years coaching in Zug, Kloten and Zurich.

The family returned back to North America and Brady spent much of his elementary years on the east coast in Hershey and Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It was there that he first became acquainted with another hockey family that is associated wtih this year's championship, the Eaves.

Brady, Patrick Eaves and Ben Eaves (a former U.S. National Junior Team member) all started their playing days in Philadelphia while Andy Murray and current U.S. Junior Team coach Mike Eaves were assistant coaches with the Flyers. The two families were fast friends as the boys were shuttled to mite games and practices.

"We were all so young and could barely skate," Murray recalls. "But we were out on the ice all the time and became pretty good friends."

Murray and his Canadian parents moved on from the U.S. and soon found themselves in Winnipeg, where Murray made another close friendship—this time with Alexander Steen. Andy Murray coaching Thomas Steen with the Jets at the time.

"We were good friends while we were in Winnipeg," Murray said. "We were so excited that we could be moving to Berlin together, but then my dad got an offer from Hockey Canada and we stayed while the Steen's left for Germany. I remember I was so upset."

Steen and Murray did not keep in touch once they were in separate countries, but their lives were taking the same path, despite the distance. Steen was making a name for himself as a teenager in Sweden, while Murray was a standout in Canada and the United States—especially with the Minnesota prep school Shattuck St. Mary's where he was reunited with Patrick Eaves. The duo shared a line with current U.S. teammate Zach Parise.

It's been six years since Brady Murray and Alexander Steen saw each other. And despite staying in the same hotel for the last week, today's game will be the first face-to-face meeting between the two since living win Canada together.

"I think he's only two doors down from me in the hotel, but it's crazy we still haven't seen each other." Murray said.

While Steen's choice to play for Sweden was fairly simple, Murray's was a little more complicated. Murray attended the Canadian Camp in the summer, but ultimately chose to play for Team USA, despite his father being the National Team Coach for Team Canada.

"I have ties to both," Murray explains. "I would be proud to play for either country, but it worked out that I am here with the U.S team. I was raised as a Canadian since both of my parents are from there, but I only really lived there for four or five years."

The choice was made easier for Murray when the United States gave him a spot on the roster, while the Canadians were still hesitant.

"I wanted to play at this championship," Murray said. "And with the United States I'm getting that opportunity."

He is also getting the opportunity to take a trip down memory lane with reunions with the Eaves family, Zach Parise and his long-lost Swedish friend Alexander Steen.

You could have simply posted the link.

No need to copy and paste.

Murray probably wouldn't have made the Canadian team, so what's the big deal?

I don't like how a player can have 'options' when it comes to playing for their country. Playing in an international tournament should be about representing your country; not showing off individual skills. If Brady Murray feels American, then that's perfectly fine. But he shouldn't have had to make the call to Team Canada first, then turn to the assured spot he had been offered on Team USA after getting an insatisfactory response.

The way Brady Murray went about this leads me to believe his first option was Team Canada but that if he couldn't be assured a spot, he'd go down the list of countries he's eligible to play for. That defeats the purpose of the tournament in my opinion. It also gives him a distinct advantage over other young players in the US and Canada who may not be good enough to make their country's team, but don't have the citizenship to play for a weaker country.

We've seen this with a couple of the USA's 2002 Salt Lake City athletes.

Brett Hull and Adam Deadmarsh.

They both weren't good enough at the time to play for Team Canada and decided to take the sure thing and play for Team USA as they had dual citizenship.

Going that route is extremely unfair to someone who may get an invite and manage to shine in selection camp to make the team. Someone who isn't a "sure thing" or a star player.

Brett Hull and Adam Deadmarsh.


I'm not too familiar with Deadmarsh's situation, but I give Hull a little slack. He tried to make Team Canada, and only turned to the USA after he was rejected by Team Canada. Murray didn't want to try out, he wanted to have his spot given to him, while using his guaranteed Team USA spot as leverage to get it.

[QUOTE=Mike8]Playing in an international tournament should be about representing your country; not showing off individual skills.[QUOTE]

Isn't it both?? Half of all of the threads and newspaper stories and commentary on the TV are about the scouting opportunities and NHL draft rankings, etc. etc. Considering that all of these guys are playing for free, who has the right to tell them what it is "about" anyway?

Seriously, if you had more than one way to get there and had an opportunity to play - you would turn it down because of the jersey? I don't think so.

[QUOTE=Mike8]
Seriously, if you had more than one way to get there and had an opportunity to play - you would turn it down because of the jersey? I don't think so.

That depends on how much dedication you have for your country. Murray obviously feels enough dedication to Team USA that he was willing to kill any chance he might have had to represent Canada in the future.

Brady Murray is locked up to a USA jersey for the rest of his playing career.

Isn't it both?? Half of all of the threads and newspaper stories and commentary on the TV are about the scouting opportunities and NHL draft rankings, etc. etc. Considering that all of these guys are playing for free, who has the right to tell them what it is "about" anyway?

Seriously, if you had more than one way to get there and had an opportunity to play - you would turn it down because of the jersey? I don't think so.

It is both, but it's not exclusively about showing off your skills, and that's what Brady Murray's doing.

The point remains that he's using an advantage that few others have, and in the process it degrades the purpose of the tournament.

It is both, but it's not exclusively about showing off your skills, and that's what Brady Murray's doing.

The point remains that he's using an advantage that few others have, and in the process it degrades the purpose of the tournament.

Dual citizenship advantages/disadvantages are not unique to hockey.He's kind of forced to make a "nationalist" decision and play against one of his counrties. I say good luck to him,,, "in the bronze medal game".

This is an interesting topic. I am amazed at the way some are offended by this but I am not a Canadian so I wouldn't know. It sure seems that some posters might be allowing thier hatered for other countries effect thier views of this situation but maybe not.

Amazing really.

Oh, and USA vs Canada in the GOLD MEDAL GAME is a lock! I CAN'T WAIT! that will be a dandy of a game.

Cheers.

He is a talented player with dual citizenship who had his choice, is this one of those jelousy issues that people are all bunched up over because someone else has an opportunity that they don't?

I don't see it I suppose.

And if that was all there was to it, we would be fine with it.

However, Murray wanted to play for Canada, but wanted to be guaranteed a spot before the selection camp...something that Hockey Canada doesn't do for anybody.

Oh, and USA vs Canada in the GOLD MEDAL GAME is a lock! I CAN'T WAIT!

Last I checked, there is still a semi-final game to be played.

Don't ever count out Finland at home.

Not so fast.

USA still has to go up against Hannu Toivonen and the Finns.

It is curious as to why he made his decisions. I wonder what we all would have done and which of us truly know all of the facts in this case.

I would bet that we are all going by what the media told us and not what the truth is.

Did you not understand the initial post?

He tried out at Canada's camp in the summer... and 2 weeks prior to the Canadian roster being announced, he called Hockey Canada to see if he was a lock for the team.

Hockey Canada said they would not promise him anything... so he then called up USA Hockey and was given a "guarenteed spot".

His first option was to play for Team Canada... after seeing that his chances were as good as Corey Perry's, Jeremy Colliton's, Maxime Talbot's, Stephen Dixon's, etc... he decided to take advantage of his dual citizenship and play for Team USA.

If he were to tell Hockey Canada that he wanted to play for USA before taking up a summer development camp spot... I could respect that. But the guy took up a spot from someone who would give it 100% and take that chance to dawn the red and white.

hmmm. my grandparents are Ukranian. I know I could've made that team. ;)

I am amazed at the way Canadians are reacting to this issue. He looks like he easily would have made the team over players like Dixon and Colliton.

That isn't the issue here. But have you ever heard of roles? Brady Murray likely wouldn't be competing with these playes for roles on the team. Colliton is strictly a penalty killer who sees little ES time. Not a position Murray would compete for.


Even then, the kid wanted to be sure to play in the tourney. He *might* have made team Canada and he *would* make team USA. We don't know if there aren't politics at work here that are behind the scenes that made Murray feel he wouldn't get a fair shot or if it were simply the fact that Team Canada has a giant of a roster and he didn't like the chances of being a small player having to fight for his spot.

If you lot were kids and in his spot I highly doubt that you would stay seated on your high horses and that you too would have gone where you knew you could get on. He has the talent to play for both teams, he had the promise to play for USA. Why is it a bad thing? He is a talented player with dual citizenship who had his choice, is this one of those jelousy issues that people are all bunched up over because someone else has an opportunity that they don't?

I don't see it I suppose.

It has nothing to do with jealousy. It has everything to do with belittling the entire point of this tournament. The WJC is a tournament to allow countries to show the talent they produce, and see where they stand on the international scale. It's not a place for players to pick and choose who they want to play for. If Brady Murray feels American, then he had no business ever being a part of Canada's camp. He never should have called Team Canada to see if he could be assured a spot. He should have been in with the US from the get-go.

If the US didn't assure him a spot, then he'd likely move on to the next country where he's a citizen. It makes a mockery to the purpose of this tournament entirely. He's using options that few other players have; not for nationalistic reasons, or to show gratitude for the training he's had from his country, but strictly for selfish intentions. I'm sure loads of players would want to show off their individual talents in this tournament, so should they go out and buy a Ukrainian passport?

I don't particularly care about Brady Murray or his snide remarks about showing Canadian officials they were wrong in not assuring him a spot, but I'd hate to see this become a common event with international tournaments.

Right mate, I don't buy it. You are essentially saying that since Brady, a kid who went to school in the states and grew up there, said he were going to play for the USA instead of Canada, he broke the "spirit" of the tourney?

Sounds wrong to me mate. You are also saying that "if he didn't make the US squad then he would move on to the next" like you know for a fact that he would. Well mate, that is conjecture at best and you are simply guessing at your position.

I wonder if you wouldn't do the same thing that Brady did given the circumstances.


We don't know the spefics around Brady's decision for a fact so we don't know what we would have done for certain.


I don't agree with your position.


I do think that on the surface that Brady should have made a choice and stuck to it early but since we don't know why he did what he did then its all just guessing and that won't do.


The whole thing to me sounds like you lot want to hang a kid for doing something that you yourselves might have done without truly knowing any of the reasons why he did it except what you have been told by the media. Of course, we all know they wouldn't lie to us, would they?

Brady Murray is a kid who plays hockey who made a decision based on the facts as he saw them. We aren't him so we don't know the facts of his decision making process so we might have all done the same thing.

Maybe not. Canada is great and I am sure that he would want to play for them unless he had a reason.

Cheers, I hope his play favoUrs his decisions.

;)

Okay, here's the reason he's playing for team USA... are you ready?

He wasn't good enough to play for team Canada.

It's as simple as that.

There's no bitterness or jealousy... the kid has 1 goal in 5 games. And if anything, when it comes to hockey... there is absolutely no way you can accuse Canadian fans of being jealous. We've got plenty of eligible players to stack two competitive WJC teams.

And I really do not recall anyone judging Brady Murray as a person... we're criticising his decision. The fact that he chose to take the guarenteed spot when he realized he wasn't good enough to play for team Canada.

As for him going to school in the US... the guy was born in Brandon, Manitoba and grew up in British Columbia... finishing High School in BC.

Right mate, I don't buy it. You are essentially saying that since Brady, a kid who went to school in the states and grew up there, said he were going to play for the USA instead of Canada, he broke the "spirit" of the tourney?

No, I'm essentially saying a player should make a choice with which country they feel national pride with and stick to it. Don't make a choice, then change your mind because you have a better chance to make another country's team. That's making a mockery of the tournament. Where Murray grew up is irrelevant.


Sounds daft to me mate. You are also saying that "if he didn't make the US squad then he would move on to the next" like you know for a fact that he would. Well mate, that is conjecture at best and you are simply guessing at your position. It must be a bad feeling to have all that bitterness.

I couldn't care less as to whether Murray plays for the US or not. I don't like players choosing different countries to play for; I made that point clear in my past posts and your failure in acknowleding my sole point, resulting in my repeating it is the only thing getting me bitter. ;)

I never stated that Murray would move on to another country, I said he'd likely do it. If he did it once, why not again? This is to point out how such a move would be a mockery of the entire system in place; NOT a personal dig at Murray. For all I know, he's a good kid just wanting to make the NHL and play with some of his buddies he knows from NCAA. I just don't like the fact that he swapped teams when one didn't assure him of a spot. Simple enough?


You also sound like you are dead positive that in the same position YOU wouldn't do the same bloody thing. It is easy to sit in your house and talk about how patriotic and splendid you would be to the whole process but I won't belive you for a minute.

Talking about conjecture, eh? This point is irrelevant. It's entirely baseless. You have no knowledge of my decision making, so deciding that you wouldn't believe me on a topic like this is silly. You don't have a leg to stand on here, mate. ;) It's silly even to bring it up.


Brady Murray is a young man who has a desire to play in the tourney. He went to team Canada and found for whatever reason that there were a solid shot he wouldn't be asked on it. NONE of us know why or what were said specifically that made him make the decision to move away from them and on to USA. ALL we can do is speculate at what happened.

No, there's several facts on what happened:

-Murray chose that he wanted to play for Canada first.
-Called Team Canada regarding his spot in the lineup
-Decided to play on Team USA afterwards.

That's all I'm concerned with.


The thing is this, you chose to believe that Brady is wrong for what he has done and that it was bad form from him and that he is this bad kid when I chose the see it as he, like all people, are good at heart and did what he felt were best for his future and that since WE DON'T know the facts of what lead him to make the choice he did, that I will believe the best in him INSTEAD of assuming the worst.

I'm not thinking Murray's a good or bad kid. I've never met him so I'm in no position to make any judgments. I don't like players chosing one country to play for, then choosing another since the grass is greener on the other side. It's nothing personal with Murray, and I'd be saying the same thing if it were any other player; coming or leaving Team Canada.

Don't think this is so personal here. I'm speaking on a more general level here than I think you are; this isn't a personal dig at Murray.


It is hypocritical to say you wouldn't have done the same bloody thing in his spot because you don't know for a fact that you wouldn't since you don't know the facts for why he did.

That's not hypocrisy at all. The only way I'd be hypocritical in this situation is if I were Brett Hull condemning Brady Murray for swapping countries.

Brady Murray didn't **** any babies or eat the dead or pee on the Canadian flag or anything like that so I don't understand why you lot care so bloody much about it. Are you that insecure about how great your country is that something as miniscule as this can get you upset?

Punchy1, I think you mentioned you lived here for a while and you seem to know a lot about canada and to be a nice guy. Therefore, I will let you in on a little secret (if you don't know it already). The reason "L'Affaire du Murray" has touched such a nerve can be summed up in two words: Messier, Hull.

In my opinion, it was a lame move by Murray and probably embarassing for his dad, but that's just my opinion - your points are good too.

There was a special feature thing on sportsnet on the kids with Canadian roots playing for team USA.... Zach Parise (Canadian father), Patrick Eaves (born in Calgary, Alberta), and of course Brady Murray (Canadian).

They asked them about playing against their "Canadian counterparts" and Murray response was something like... "I hope Canada realizes that they should have given me the chance to play for them."

What the hell.

Was that not what the selection process was about?

Because he said that he gave Hockey Canada a call to see if he'd make the team and they said that it would difficult, but he'd have to compete for a spot... and then he called USA Hockey and they gave him a roster spot... something he called a "sure thing".

Anyways... that just bugs me... the fact that he chose to play for USA because he wasn't good enough to play for Team Canada.

I don't care if it's his last opportunity to play in the WJC... he just took advantage of the situation and that annoys me. There's an actual American kid out there that should have been selected to play for the team... someone who didn't have a crack at it with another country.


hmmmm dual citzenship. Only lived in Canada 4 years? (US for 14 years. Played with Zach @ Shattuck St. Mary's in Minnesota (the same school the famed Crosby played for a year before the Q) What's the big deal.

hmmmm dual citzenship. Only lived in Canada 4 years? (US for 14 years. Played with Zach @ Shattuck St. Mary's in Minnesota (the same school the famed Crosby played for a year before the Q) What's the big deal.

I think you missed the point.

People are NOT upset with Murray for playing for Team USA. They are upset over the way he went about it. ie: called Hockey Canada and asked if he was going to be givin a roster spot for sure.

I don't understand why canadians are so extremely bitter about murray. Like many canadians have admitted it has nothing to do with his talent level helping the junior team out.

It has everything to do with nationalism. And Brady's apparent lack of loyalty to canada.

The press may have painted a picture of murray where he loves only canada and playing for the US is a 'career' choice. Maybe canadians have too much nationalistic pride or see murray as characterless. I just don't see the problem there.

Brady is an individual, being branded to any one nation should come second.

Okay, here's the reason he's playing for team USA... are you ready?

He wasn't good enough to play for team Canada.

It's as simple as that.

There's no bitterness or jealousy... the kid has 1 goal in 5 games. And if anything, when it comes to hockey... there is absolutely no way you can accuse Canadian fans of being jealous. We've got plenty of eligible players to stack two competitive WJC teams.

And I really do not recall anyone judging Brady Murray as a person... we're criticising his decision. The fact that he chose to take the guarenteed spot when he realized he wasn't good enough to play for team Canada.

As for him going to school in the US... the guy was born in Brandon, Manitoba and grew up in British Columbia... finishing High School in BC.


You don't know that he wasn't good enough for Team Canada.

You guys have been *****ing about this since Murray's decision, I mean, if he really wasn't good enough for Team Canada, wouldn't you have given up by now?

And based on your assumption that he wouldn't make Canada because he has one goal in 5 games, well, what about Colliton's 0 goals, 0 Assists in 5 games? Or how about Dixon's 0 goals, 1 assist in 5 games? Oh how convenient, you must have forgot about those guys because they turn your "evidence" into a pile of steaming dog ****.

He was born in Canada, YAY! Well, as someone pointed out above, he's lived in Canada for 4 years, the US 14. Developed at Shattuck in Minnesota, and at North Dakota.


Van: Read the rules for this board. Your comments were very close to earning yourself a ban for insulting somebody based on nationality. I edited out the questionable content.

Christ, we know you hate us Americans GPH.....But please, give it up if Murray really wasn't good enough for Team Canada as you claim.

It's not so much that he wasn't good enough, but that he refused to try out to prove that he wasn't. And that, I feel, is lame.

It's not so much that he wasn't good enough, but that he refused to try out to prove that he wasn't. And that, I feel, is lame.

Maybe, or maybe he feels strong ties to both countries (for obvious reasons) and he loves hockey so much he wanted to play in this tournament. Can you imagine how he would feel right now if he turned down team USA and didn't make Canada? The kid was both blessed and cursed to be in the situation he was in, but you can't fault him for wanting to play in the big tourney.

Maybe, or maybe he feels strong ties to both countries (for obvious reasons) and he loves hockey so much he wanted to play in this tournament. Can you imagine how he would feel right now if he turned down team USA and didn't make Canada? The kid was both blessed and cursed to be in the situation he was in, but you can't fault him for wanting to play in the big tourney.

No, of course I don't blame him. Heck, I want to play there too!
But we are all delusional if we don't believe that he was a lock for the US team. He wanted to be a (corey) lock for Canada too, but that is not how it works with hockeycanada - not for anyone except maybe rick nash, eric staal, bergeron, bouchard and fleury et al.
If he had been a lock for both then he would have had a choice, and that's what I believe he wanted.
I bet if the US weren't heavy favourites this year -say it was the 1986 team or whatnot - he would probably have shown up for the final cuts for canada.
Anyway, he gets to play - everyone's happy - and maybe one day he'll be on the US olympic team.

No, of course I don't blame him. Heck, I want to play there too!
But we are all delusional if we don't believe that he was a lock for the US team. He wanted to be a (corey) lock for Canada too, but that is not how it works with hockeycanada - not for anyone except maybe rick nash, eric staal, bergeron, bouchard and fleury et al.
If he had been a lock for both then he would have had a choice, and that's what I believe he wanted.
I bet if the US weren't heavy favourites this year -say it was the 1986 team or whatnot - he would probably have shown up for the final cuts for canada.
Anyway, he gets to play - everyone's happy - and maybe one day he'll be on the US olympic team.

Hell, if Robbie Schremp can't make Team USA, Brady Murray can't be considered a lock. Team USA's and Canada's selection processes are different. USA offered Murray the spot, he took it.

Hell, if Robbie Schremp can't make Team USA, Brady Murray can't be considered a lock. Team USA's and Canada's selection processes are different. USA offered Murray the spot, he took it.

Um, Robbie Schremp was never a lock due to several mitigating factors. Among the most prominent: he is a jerk; he has had problems with HockeyUSA in the recent past; he has reduced his value dramatically by demanding, yes demanding, a trade from his club - and all this at his tender age. Eaves and crew would have to be idiots to bring this guy overseas. They made the right choice. He's got skill, but not enough to compensate for his other, more dominant...qualities.

USA offered Murray the spot, he took it.

We realize that, and would have no problem with it if Murray simply took it and ran...but he didn't. He used that guaranteed Team USA spot as leverage to try to get himself a guaranteed spot on Team Canada before the selection camp.

Canadians are not upset that Murray is wearing a USA jersey....we are upset that he tried to weasel his way on to our team by using his Team USA spot as leverage.

Punchy1,
just to put the debate on hold for a moment, are you really from New Zealand?

Hell, if Robbie Schremp can't make Team USA, Brady Murray can't be considered a lock. Team USA's and Canada's selection processes are different. USA offered Murray the spot, he took it.

EVERY spot offered on US team WAS a lock, Not just CONSIDERED. They had no tryout invites. They had TEAM invites (LOCKS). A few spots on Canada (Fleury, Burns) were considered locks.

Anyway I wish Murray well. This is hockey not basketball. US are underdogs. He shouldn't try to twist things around to the press but he may have known the type (big, fast) of players Canadas' coaching staff was after and not liked his chances of making (being picked for) the team. I'm sure HE feels he was good enough to be on the team. I don't.
I think Parise would have trouble making the Canadian team. He certainly wouldn't be getting the icetime he is now. This is not a knock on Parise either; Parise is the player of the tournament to date, but nobody on Team Canada is getting the icetime he's getting.

Sorry chic, yes I am from NZ. A lovely place called locally as Punis Farm. I am Maori (although raised until a late teener in Ireland and the UK). Sort of a traveling mutt as it where.


My post were seen as offencive and delted by a mod. I appolgize if I offended anyone as that weren't my intention.





Brady Murray I suppose is a player who did what he felt were right. None of us know why he did what he did for a fact so all we can do is guess at what his true reasons for his actions were. Anything else is conjecture to me but as made obvious by my post being taken out, I can be wrong at times and guess i am this time too.

Cheers.

Sorry chic, yes I am from NZ. A lovely place called locally as Punis Farm. I am Maori (although raised until a late teener in Ireland and the UK). Sort of a traveling mutt as it where.

Well that's odd. Because I noted that you used the American spelling for the word favour, which you spelled "favor". This is even odder if you grew up in Ireland and UK where such spelling choices are not just frowned upon (as they are here in canada), but just plain incorrect.
I know we are all loose with our spelling here (though that is rude in itself ;) ) but that really stuck out for me.

Even more bizarre, is that the post of yours which I am citing is no longer viewable above. It has been deleted (perhaps by Van, perhaps not - I don't recall anything offensive...?).

Please clarify.
yours truly,
encyclopaedia brown

I write in the manner that I will get the least amount of flack here or try to. When I first came to the boards I were being corrected all the bleeding time. Now you write what you do. Truth said mate, I don't give a peck of scat what you think about the way I write or how you feel about my choice of spelling certain words. The superflous U as the yanks tend to call it is usually the first thing people around here have whinned about. I have already taken most of the cockney out of my way of writing/typing, should I police that for you as well? I won't but it is my nature to ask. ;)

Any other question you have about me or my personal life away from topic will be addressed in the form of a pm from this point on please.

Cheers.


The mod said it were wrong so it were wrong. Thats enough for me.

The post in question was deleted because it contained personal content against another user.

I will give this thread one chance to get back on-topic.

Any comment on the fact that nobody knows, for a fact, the circumstances of what led Brady to make his decisions or is the idea that it is simply nationalism and concjecture rearing thier ugly heads?

hey punchy
wow, i was just joking around! You seemed to be sympathising with the US/Brady side (if that's even a "side" or relevant qualification) and I thought that was kind of funny with the ol' spelling thingee.
Anyhoo, as Van says, we should get back on topic - no, of course we don't know 'all that was said or happened' and that aspect must remain in the murky realm and domain of future sportswriters. That said, I think those of us who think that there might be an element of 'weasellyness' to the murray affair have presented our side cleary and cogently.
You optimistically argue for the benefit of the doubt and base this argument on unknowable factors. That's fine and fair too, but that sort of initial logic leads to arguments or conversations that can never be resolved. It's like saying "I know there's a god because...I just know..."
Not trying to offend, that is just a loosely based historical example of theological discussion from before Abelard.
Anyway, cheers to you too.

Sorry mate, I am still a bit bunched about the editing thing as I would never intend to offend anyone and my mod mate and I have had a chatter about it and it is a new and challenging way of talking to another adult for me and a bit frustrating but, a learning experience and if it is frustrating for me, I can only imagine how bad it is for the mod.

Please don't regard my responses and understand my having some crack with you in my pm as well. I am having a hard time communicating what is and isn't sarcasm.

That said, I am just finding the anger curious in this issue as it smacks of one of them media driven situations where it is just controversial enough to sell some papes and get everyone worked up good and well without any substance. I don't see the facts shown anywhere.

As to Brady and his comments well, it do seem a bit poor the way he chooses to talk about things but, he is a young lad and given to opening his mouth and tasting leather but, heck aren't we all? I know I am especially of late.

Any comment on the fact that nobody knows, for a fact, the circumstances of what led Brady to make his decisions or is the idea that it is simply nationalism and concjecture rearing thier ugly heads?
The reason he's wearing the red, white, and blue is because Hockey Canada said that they weren't going to promise him anything... and that he'd have to play himself onto the Canadian roster... like everyone else.

He didn't want to have to play for a roster spot in selection camp... he just wanted Hockey Canada to give him a roster spot prior to the selection camp... which has never happened in the history of the tournament.

There were "locks"... the guys who were loaned to team Canada from the NHL... and the healthy returnees from the 2003 tournament.

I am of the opinion that you simply don't know the actual facts that made him get to that spot or that made him make his decision. You can reword it anyway you want to sir, you won't be able to provide anything to susbtantiate your position that is of a factual nature. You will get suppositions from media types but not word one from the mouth of Brady with the exception of his saying something of the effect that he will show us he can play at that level in one way or another. You will not be able to provide anything that can provide background as to what the specific reasons were that led to his decision. You can provide allot of pundits conjecture and what they *feel* were the truth but in the end, it is merely a feeling and not the specific and factual words from the mouth of Brady Murray or from the final person to make the choice for team Canada.

That is, I will respectfully chose to have the opinion that your position is incorrect and founded in opinion and not in factual information. I see it is more of a position that Canadians feel that he did something wrong to them and not to his team and appear to be unwilling to allow for the posibility that there may have been or may in fact be mitigating circumstances that led Brady to make the decisions that he did.

Of course, please understand that I am open minded to the fact that my opinion is of the same nature and based on the fact that I have yet to see either Brady or the head of the Canadian program say in thier own words what you and some others believe to be the truth and that I could be wrong in my thinking and in no way mean to put you off on what I am saying, I just have to go with the facts when a persons reputation is on the line as I have seen so many examples of a human being trashed based on pure rubbish and feel that when we do that we are acting at our worst. No offence mate.

I also agree that it defeats the purpose of the tourney. Playing for a team is all about representing your country. About being proud of your citizenship and about trying to be a hero for your country. There should only be one choice. It shouldn't be based on anything else than wanting to play for one country or the other.

I'm glad a guy like that isn't on Canada's team. I don't understand how fans of the american team can cheer for him. Especially knowing how patriotic most americans are. After all the american team was his 2nd choice. Murray is looking more bitter about not being chosen by Canada than proud to play for team USA. He said :

"I hope Canada realizes that they should have given me the chance to play for them."

When he really should have said :

"I'm proud to play for the states. They've given me a chance and they should have been my first choice all along."

I'm just gonna give an exemple.

If Steve Nash (The canadian basketball player) had dual citizenship and called the USA team to be told that he'd have to earn his spot on the team in a try out. And then called Team Canada and was automatically offered a spot and then would chose Canada by default because he'd be sure to play. I couldn't cheer for this guy. I would even have a hard time to identify to the team because of it.

I also think it's classless for him to say he hopes Team Canada now realize they should have taken him. He shows disrespect to all the other players who tried out and made the team with hard work and who are showing pride about playing for Canada. I'd not be proud to be his teamate on team USA.

It's got nothing to do with canadians being bitter he chose the US. Most likely Murray would have had a lesser role if he made the team. And he isn't playing for us. Most people are just getting a wrong feeling about his actions because they have a different set of values. I'm among those people.

You will get suppositions from media types but not word one from the mouth of Brady with the exception of his saying something of the effect that he will show us he can play at that level in one way or another.

What about this comment...

"I hope Canada realizes that they should have given me the chance to play for them."

This tells the whole story. Brady would have been invited to the December selection camp...ie: given a chance to play for them.

By calling Hockey Canada to see if he had a spot on the team, when nobody else would have been given that luxury, was a selfish attempt to use the guaranteed spot on Team USA to get himself a spot on Team Canada.

I don't see how else this can be seen.

I would have to see it differently then you. I see it in a fashion that he is a young man who wanted to play in this tournament so badly that he tried to play for both countries. As a person who holds dual citizenship I am equally loyal to both of the countries that I am aligned with. I am of the opinion that Brady might feel the same way. He could have made an arguement to play for one of the euro countries he lived in as well but didn't.

I think that you might be seeing it from the perspective of a person who doesn't hold dual citizenship and therefore you are putting your perspective into his situation and I have the feeling that you are making an unfair assumption in that position mate. Brady could be the type of fellow that is equally loyal to both countries and though, he were trying to play for Canada also wanted to play for USA and when it looked like Canada wouldn't be his best opportunity he went to USA and was happy with his choice.

As I have said, you are speculating on his position and I feel that is a dangerous way to think when a young mans reputation is on the line. We don't know all of the facts and in this case, in the way you have responded, no offence intended mate but it looks like you are reacting in a manner that is merely a nationalistic point of view based on your being only a Canadian and as I have said, since he is of a dual citizenship, you can't know what he feels or where his loyalties are but again, I hope you aren't offended by my statements, I simply feel that way and while I don't agree with you feel your opinion is interesting and valid, just not exactly right in my way of thinking.

Cheers.

What about this comment...

"I hope Canada realizes that they should have given me the chance to play for them."

This tells the whole story. Brady would have been invited to the December selection camp...ie: given a chance to play for them.

By calling Hockey Canada to see if he had a spot on the team, when nobody else would have been given that luxury, was a selfish attempt to use the guaranteed spot on Team USA to get himself a spot on Team Canada.

I don't see how else this can be seen.

Exactly ! There's no interpretation here. The USA were his 2nd choice. This is made very clear when he says Canada should have given him the chance to play for them.

Again, I would have to ask you if you held dual citizenship. I am speculating as well but as a bloke who does, I am equally loyal to two countries, two totally different cultures and two totally different life styles and while I could also be speculating based on my personal experiences I would have to say that they are as valid as your opinions are.

In fact, why not be flattered that Canada was Brady's first choice for a team to play for? I mean, you can want to believe what you will but, he did go to you lot first and in that, whatever the true circumstances of the situation are, he made Canada his first choice and for whatever the reason decided to play for USA instead. I feel that he were lucky to have that option and that him having this option could be a part of the reason why, no offence intended here mates, that some of you are so affected by this. Again, please don't take offence to my saying that you are acting affected, I mean that you seem to be so passionate about this and are allowing the words of an 18 year old kid who you don't know raise your passion against him when there could possibly be agents at work that not only led him to his not playing for Canada but also for saying those awful words.

Just an opinion of mine and no more valid than yours but it is the way I see it.

Cheers mates.

we all know I think Murray's process was lame, but I do think that Punchy, being dual himself, should be respected for his view, non?

Again, I would have to ask you if you held dual citizenship. I am speculating as well but as a bloke who does, I am equally loyal to two countries, two totally different cultures and two totally different life styles and while I could also be speculating based on my personal experiences I would have to say that they are as valid as your opinions are.

I am very close to acquiring dual citizenship between Canada and The Netherlands. I am very loyal to Holland, just as I am to Canada. If I was a player, and Holland offered me a spot on their team, no questions asked, and I also had a chance to try out for Canada....I would not use my guaranteed Dutch spot as leverage to try and get a guaranteed Canadian spot, knowing that Canada guarantees spots for nobody but very few eligible NHL players.

And if I did end up choosing Holland, I would not have the nerve to say that Canada should have given me a chance to play for them....because they did.



In fact, why not be flattered that Canada was Brady's first choice for a team to play for?

If he had have tried out and got cut...or simply said that he would rather play for the United States, then I could see it this way.

I would have to see it differently then you. I see it in a fashion that he is a young man who wanted to play in this tournament so badly that he tried to play for both countries. As a person who holds dual citizenship I am equally loyal to both of the countries that I am aligned with. I am of the opinion that Brady might feel the same way. He could have made an arguement to play for one of the euro countries he lived in as well but didn't.

I think that you might be seeing it from the perspective of a person who doesn't hold dual citizenship and therefore you are putting your perspective into his situation and I have the feeling that you are making an unfair assumption in that position mate. Brady could be the type of fellow that is equally loyal to both countries and though, he were trying to play for Canada also wanted to play for USA and when it looked like Canada wouldn't be his best opportunity he went to USA and was happy with his choice.

As I have said, you are speculating on his position and I feel that is a dangerous way to think when a young mans reputation is on the line. We don't know all of the facts and in this case, in the way you have responded, no offence intended mate but it looks like you are reacting in a manner that is merely a nationalistic point of view based on your being only a Canadian and as I have said, since he is of a dual citizenship, you can't know what he feels or where his loyalties are but again, I hope you aren't offended by my statements, I simply feel that way and while I don't agree with you feel your opinion is interesting and valid, just not exactly right in my way of thinking.

Cheers.

You are right I don't hold dual citizenship. I can't really imagine what it must be like. But I still believe I wouldn't have done the same thing if I were put in his place. I'd have chosen one team and stuck with it. I would feel cheaply about the guys I'm currently playing with being my second choice. Like you said we don't have the same way of thinking so let's agree to disagree.

Well, there is the beauty of this situation in my particular opinion. You mentioned what *you* would do based on *your* knowledge of the situation. I am not calling it or you wrong, I am saying that you are not Brady Murray and that you nor I or would hold that not a person that I know of at HF knows the exact specifics of the situation so saying what we would do is one thing, to hammer an 18 year old for what he did based on what we would do is another entirely in my opinion.

I would also take a challenge to your position based on the fact that you are about to go after your dual citizenship when Brady has held his for a long time. I was raised the majority of my life in one country and then moved to another. My original loyalty would be to the country I were raised in but after living here for the majority of my adult life, I would chose differently.

You do prove my point though that you are making your opinion based on your belief of what you would do and not what Brady did and you are also basing it on one sentense from him that easily as so often happens have been taken in many different ways and one of them is out of the context of what the entire statement were. You are saying what you feel you would do if it were you, not what actually happened to Brady and what Brady did based on what were happening to Brady.

If I were in your position then I would also do what you claim you would do. That is entirely different than Brady's situation as far as we know but again, no offence mate, i am still questioning the situation in that we don't know all of the facts and that we are all speculating some pretty terrible things about a kid and convicting him without his being able to present his side of what might have happened. That I take exception to as far as my own personal opinion is concerned but again, I come from a different position and mean nothing by it.

Cheers mate.

I would also take a challenge to your position based on the fact that you are about to go after your dual citizenship when Brady has held his for a long time.

This is quite unfair. Just because I don't yet have the paperwork doesn't mean I haven't had a sense of pride in both nations for my entire life.


i am still questioning the situation in that we don't know all of the facts and that we are all speculating some pretty terrible things about a kid and convicting him without his being able to present his side of what might have happened.

We know that Hockey Canada had the intentions of inviting him to the December selection camp....and we know that Brady Murray feels that trying out for a team isn't getting a chance to play for them...his own comments prove that. The comment, "I hope Canada realizes that they should have given me the chance to play for them.", was his side of the story.

The only people complaining about this issue are Canadians. Why is that? Murray probably wouldn't have made the Canadian team, so what's the big deal? He's welcome on the U.S. side, and nothing's going to change that. Can we please drop this?


To me Rabid Ranger, it comes down to this...

There should only be 1 team that Murray wants to represent in this tournament, not 2.

In the 2002 SLC Winter Olympics, who was Brady Murray cheering for in the Gold Medal game? Canada or the USA? He father wasn't a coach for the team, so there was no family obligation for him to cheer for Canada.

Obviously, he was cheering for Canada because he was at Canada's summer evaluation camp. The fact that Canada told him after he called them that there was a chance that he might not get an invite, at that point he should have said, "I just want an invitation to camp and I'll show you that I belong on the team"" and told the USA team, thanks for the offer, but I'm a Canadian. And if I don't get invited, then I'll cheer them on from my dorm room at North Dakota.

This isn't like the Olympics, where athletes from opressed countries leave and take up citizenship in another country and go back to the olympics to represent their new country.

Once, you play for a country beginning at the WJHC, then that is your country, as demonstrated by Nabokov who is now tied to Khaz despite his desires to play for Russia. Kolzig, who was raised in BC can only play for Germany. This decision that Murray made is forever. There is no turning back.

Again, I would have to ask you if you held dual citizenship. I am speculating as well but as a bloke who does, I am equally loyal to two countries, two totally different cultures and two totally different life styles and while I could also be speculating based on my personal experiences I would have to say that they are as valid as your opinions are.


Even if you hold dual citizenship you can only play for one team. You have a choice to make. It's not about searching a job it's about representing one country.

It's like me having equal feelings for two girls (girl A and girl B). Both girls are going to a party. For me to go I need to be invited by one of those girls.

I go completely random and ask girl A to go to the party with me. Girl A says I have to succeed in seducing her first.

I'm a lazy so I decide to go for girl B instead.

Girl B doesn't garner a lot of interest from other males so she readily accept my demands and we go together.

Then I see girl A with a guy at the party. I go out to them and tell her : I hope you realize you should have went to the party with me.

It's just wrong in my book. It's not about not being able to understand Murray because I don't have dual citizenship. It's about the way he did things and about the comments he made.


In fact, why not be flattered that Canada was Brady's first choice for a team to play for? I mean, you can want to believe what you will but, he did go to you lot first and in that, whatever the true circumstances of the situation are, he made Canada his first choice and for whatever the reason decided to play for USA instead. I feel that he were lucky to have that option and that him having this option could be a part of the reason why, no offence intended here mates, that some of you are so affected by this. Again, please don't take offence to my saying that you are acting affected, I mean that you seem to be so passionate about this and are allowing the words of an 18 year old kid who you don't know raise your passion against him when there could possibly be agents at work that not only led him to his not playing for Canada but also for saying those awful words.


No offense but I think you're a whole lot more passionate about this than me. I even suspect you of being Brady Murray. ;)


Just an opinion of mine and no more valid than yours but it is the way I see it.

I totaly agree and I'm sorry if I made you feel otherwise. Just discussing here ! :p

BTW dunno if you were talking to me or VAN or both ... but I answered anyway.

Cheers habs. Well van, there is no way to reason my position in any other manner than I have with you. In one fashion or another, I am not capable of getting my point across and would rather concede it than say anything that could be even remotely taken as offencive in any fashion. I feel that there are facts that we simply don't know and you believe you have them all. In that, we are on opposite sides so cheers.

Ta da and maybe there simply is no answer to this except that, we feel, that Brady either did or didn't act correctly and he either is or isn't right in his actions, other than that, is speculation.

Cheers mates.

Cheers habs. Well van, there is no way to reason my position in any other manner than I have with you. In one fashion or another, I am not capable of getting my point across and would rather concede it than say anything that could be even remotely taken as offencive in any fashion. I feel that there are facts that we simply don't know and you believe you have them all. In that, we are on opposite sides so cheers.

Ta da and maybe there simply is no answer to this except that, we feel, that Brady either did or didn't act correctly and he either is or isn't right in his actions, other than that, is speculation.

Cheers mates.


You do make some valid points Punchy. We don't know all the factors surrounding Brady Murray's decision. But, what is not in question is the following:

He attended Canada's summer evaluation camp. This camp is used to evaluate some 40 odd Junior aged players that Canada is considering for the team. The Camp is made up of players from the 2002 and 2003 draft. Murray was there and so was one of the players Canada was considering.

For me, I do have a problem with Brady attending Canada's camp and then opting to play for the USA. Since he attended Canada's camp, that should be the ONLY country he should play for. What reason is there for Murray to be at the Camp if Canada is not the country he wants to represent at this tournament? It's either Canada or he watches the tournament from home.

I do realize that holding dual citizenship in the US and Canada means that Murray needs to make a decision. But, in my eyes, he made that decision in the summer when he attended the selection camp.

I'm Canadian and don't hold any other citizenship. But, I would like to think that I would have done things differently if I was in Murray's situation. I have to choose which country to represent. If, I attended the camp like Murray did, then I would have declined the US offer of a guaranteed spot. Canada would have been my only choice. If the coaches don't think I'm good enough to be on the team, then I take a few days to get over my disappointment, but wish the team the best of luck in winning gold and cheer them on from home.

Does anyone here remember the Canadian summer camp? Does anyone here remember that Murray played in this summer camp? Do we not remember that it was reported in the media that Zack Parise contacted Murray in order to convince him to play at the U.S. summer camp and tournament. Did not Brady Murray say thanks but no thanks because he couldn't see himself playing for anybody else but Canada? After all he had been cheering for Canada since he was a wee tot.

Being an American, I am kind of glad that he is playing for us. Although I do wonder how Robbie Schremp feels about the situation since he DID ATTEND the U.S. summer evaluation camp and was actually one of the leading scores in the tournament. I wonder how the other American players who ALWAYS WANTED TO PLAY FOR THE U.S. feel about Murray's spot on the team?

I wonder how we Americans will feel when Schremp says thanks but no thanks to the American invitation to play next year and instead decides to pursue his Canadian citizenship in order to play for Team Canada?

The FACT is punchy that Murray WANTED to play for Canada. Hence his attendance at the summer evaluation camp and his contacting of Hockey Canada in order to be ensured a spot on the team. I personally believe that he would not have made Team Canada and that Murray knew that it would be an up hill battle. He wanted to play in the tournament and the U.S. gave him that opportunity. So he took it.

Should Canadians be bitter towards him? I think not. Yes they have a ligitimate reason to complain as to how he handled the situation but why complain since he is a dual?

I wonder how we Americans will feel when Schremp says thanks but no thanks to the American invitation to play next year and instead decides to pursue his Canadian citizenship in order to play for Team Canada?


Is this Schremp's intention, or were you just making a point?

Wow, thanks mate. That clears up allot for me. Set me up with the link that will back up what you said in Murrays own words or the words of his coaches etc and I will post the biggest bleeding retraction ever to be ignored on these boards.

By the way, this sort of thing in substance but different in actions happens all of the time. Lots of players are playing thoughout North America and in the NHL that hold dual citizenship who chose to play for one country or another. That is why I don't buy the majority of the arguements. That, and there are simply no statements of fact from the parties involved to support the venom that I have read on the subject with the exception of what is reported in the media which, we all know is totally unreliable and will say anything to sell a pape or get a rating. When Brady Murray is interviewed about this which I believe he will be after the tourney, then we will find out what is what and I am open minded to the chance that you lot are right and if that is the case then beauty. You lot though, aren't even remotely open to the chance that there might be information that we don't know that led to Brady doing what he did and have shot him down without ever hearing his side of things.

One quote by an 18 year old saying he hopes he does a good enough job to show the team he didn't make that he were good enough to have been there doesn't mean squatter to me mates. You don't know the specifics behind his making the decision or that specific statement so it is superflous.

Of course as always, I mean no harm or offence by my pov on this and if I am offending anyone in any manner by my posting I am sorry in advance and pm me and I will remove the offencive bits asap. I am merely trying to show that, all of this is circumstantial at best and to ruin a young chap on that sort of "evidence" I feel is wrong. Guilty before being given a chance to prove his innocence (although he shouldn't have to prove anything here) is what it is, to me, and I have always felt that wrong but again, that is simply my point of view and no harm is meant by it.


Cheers.

They asked them about playing against their "Canadian counterparts" and Murray response was something like... [I]"I hope Canada realizes that they should have given me the chance to play for them

Canada doesn't need to realize anything. They never needed him. It's nice that he gets to play with his second choice team though :p

"something like"

Oh, and of course the usual bit where I say that none of us know what either party truly said or felt about the situation so its all just opinion and the part where I appologize in advance for the chance that anyone be offended by my point of view.

Cheers mates.

Wow, thanks mate. That clears up allot for me. Set me up with the link that will back up what you said in Murrays own words or the words of his coaches etc and I will post the biggest bleeding retraction ever to be ignored on these boards.

By the way, this sort of thing in substance but different in actions happens all of the time. Lots of players are playing thoughout North America and in the NHL that hold dual citizenship who chose to play for one country or another. That is why I don't buy the majority of the arguements. That, and there are simply no statements of fact from the parties involved to support the venom that I have read on the subject with the exception of what is reported in the media which, we all know is totally unreliable and will say anything to sell a pape or get a rating. When Brady Murray is interviewed about this which I believe he will be after the tourney, then we will find out what is what and I am open minded to the chance that you lot are right and if that is the case then beauty. You lot though, aren't even remotely open to the chance that there might be information that we don't know that led to Brady doing what he did and have shot him down without ever hearing his side of things.

One quote by an 18 year old saying he hopes he does a good enough job to show the team he didn't make that he were good enough to have been there doesn't mean squatter to me mates. You don't know the specifics behind his making the decision or that specific statement so it is superflous.

Of course as always, I mean no harm or offence by my pov on this and if I am offending anyone in any manner by my posting I am sorry in advance and pm me and I will remove the offencive bits asap. I am merely trying to show that, all of this is circumstantial at best and to ruin a young chap on that sort of "evidence" I feel is wrong. Guilty before being given a chance to prove his innocence (although he shouldn't have to prove anything here) is what it is, to me, and I have always felt that wrong but again, that is simply my point of view and no harm is meant by it.


Cheers.

Here is a link that may shed a little light on your "opinion" of the matter.

http://www.canoe.ca/Slam030819/chl_nat-sun.html

In case the link does not work for you, here is what Brady said in his own words....

"I could have gone to the U.S. camp but I grew up with Canadian hockey and watching the Canadian players in the Maple Leaf uniforms. So when the opportunity came up, I couldn't say no," said Murray.


Of course punchy this may have been an imposter or one of Murray's doubles intended to fool the brass of Hockey Canada :D

So long mate : ;)

Is this Schremp's intention, or were you just making a point?


Just making a point but I have heard from some credible sources that he is not at all happy with USA Hockey and may not play for them next year.

It would not surpirse me to see the above scenerio come true.

I take offence at your post VOB and if you would have taken the time to actually acquaint yourself with what I have written instead of focusing on one minor point so that you can attack me you would see that I had already addressed that bit you provided the link for.

If you want my response to the substance of your attack then simply read any of the other posts on this subject that I have made and you will find it.

As to your use of the phrase "so long mate" and the rest of the attacks on my nationality and position well mate, you should take that down as I have seen that the mods will get on you about it.

If you can't make your point without making it a personal attack then why would you bother? You aren't going to get anything substantive in a response and as I said, in this case, a little advance reading would have answered your questions and made you realize how superfluous your post is.

Ta da and cheers mate.

I think everybody should stop taking everything so serious and be nice to eachother :teach:

I wonder how we Americans will feel when Schremp says thanks but no thanks to the American invitation to play next year and instead decides to pursue his Canadian citizenship in order to play for Team Canada?

I don't think you have to worry too much there, VOB, as I seriously doubt that Canada (the team) would have anything to do with Schremp. As noted above, he is apparently poison in the locker room. That is the last thing anyone needs at Christmas time. ;)

Plus, the Americans are hosting next year's tourney, which means the WJCs will actually get some media play in the States - so, could you imagine the distraction that the Schremp affair would become!!

There is simply no way Jose. (i think).

I take offence at your post VOB and if you would have taken the time to actually acquaint yourself with what I have written instead of focusing on one minor point so that you can attack me you would see that I had already addressed that bit you provided the link for.

If you want my response to the substance of your attack then simply read any of the other posts on this subject that I have made and you will find it.

As to your use of the phrase "so long mate" and the rest of the attacks on my nationality and position well mate, you should take that down as I have seen that the mods will get on you about it.

If you can't make your point without making it a personal attack then why would you bother? You aren't going to get anything substantive in a response and as I said, in this case, a little advance reading would have answered your questions and made you realize how superfluous your post is.

Ta da and cheers mate.

I was not aware that only kiwis could use the term mate.

I have more than made my point here punchy. I said, and have provided proof, that Murray attended the Canadian summer evaluation camp, wanted to play for Team Canada and changed his mind when he could not be assured a spot on the team.

These are all facts punchy1, nothing more.

So long MATE :D

I take offence at your post VOB and if you would have taken the time to actually acquaint yourself with what I have written instead of focusing on one minor point so that you can attack me you would see that I had already addressed that bit you provided the link for.

If you want my response to the substance of your attack then simply read any of the other posts on this subject that I have made and you will find it.

As to your use of the phrase "so long mate" and the rest of the attacks on my nationality and position well mate, you should take that down as I have seen that the mods will get on you about it.

If you can't make your point without making it a personal attack then why would you bother? You aren't going to get anything substantive in a response and as I said, in this case, a little advance reading would have answered your questions and made you realize how superfluous your post is.

Ta da and cheers mate.

Punchy I have read your posts on this and happen to agree with your view of things for the most part. We don't know in what context Murray made his remarks or how accurately they were repeated. The "Nationalist" side of me doesn't make me a fan of his but I certainly wouldn't let that taint my opinion of him personally. Nobody made him promise not to play for the States if he went to "Summer Camp". If he tried to feel Hockey Canada out about their intentions, so be it.

I do wonder how you feel about Australias excellent performance at the 2000 Olympics. Canadians used to be competitive with them in Summer Olympics and Commonwealth Games but no more. Their programme is to good. But they also "recruit" athletes from other countries that pad their results. Not that this is the reason for their success, but it is a factor.
I don't think the Kiwis do this to any extent. In fact they suffer from the other side of it in sports like sailing. Russel Coutts comes to mind. Considerable Kiwi angst resulting from his "defection".

Not that the circumstances are in any way similar but I would like your opinion.

Cheers mate

Just making a point but I have heard from some credible sources that he is not at all happy with USA Hockey and may not play for them next year.

It would not surpirse me to see the above scenerio come true.


Yeah, I've heard he viewed it as a "slap in the face" that he wasn't named, but clearly, he bears some responsibility for that. Hopefully he takes this season and grows from it, and if and when he's invited next year he accepts. As for gaining Canadian citizenship, I don't think it's worth it to a guy like him. His focus is on becoming a pro player, and he'd probably just as soon skip the WJC's next year.

I don't think you have to worry too much there, VOB, as I seriously doubt that Canada (the team) would have anything to do with Schremp. As noted above, he is apparently poison in the locker room. That is the last thing anyone needs at Christmas time. ;)

Plus, the Americans are hosting next year's tourney, which means the WJCs will actually get some media play in the States - so, could you imagine the distraction that the Schremp affair would become!!

There is simply no way Jose. (i think).



I wish people would quit claiming Schremp is a locker room cancer and all that nonsense. I haven't read one article that suggests that to be true. By all accounts he's a good teammate who is well prepared and works as hard as anyone.

Oh then sorry vob person. You are correct in your single point of where Brady Murray was this past summer. Brilliant addition to the topic person. I would also point out that it has naught to do with what we are talking about and has already been discussed but since your point of view is shared by the mods and the majority I am sure that your (now this bit is merely an opinion based on what I have observed that isn't intended to hurt anyones feelings so please, let me know if they do so I can delete them ;) ) passive agressive name calling is nothing more than an extention of your desire to be noticed. Well person, you have been noticed. Cheers.

Crosby, Interesting question mate. I will have to chew on it a bit as I hadn't really considered applying that logic to the topic at hand. I am sort of compelled to say that since all countries use pro atheltes and have in the present or past allowed the migration of talented individuals to support thier programs that it isn't a bid deal but, that would be a surface arguement and I would have to give this some thought before I commented further.

I know that we have footballers migrate to europe to play for bigger dosh and bigger crowds/fame/fortune and it always stings but that is at a pro level and not at an amatuer championship one. I will give it a thought and get back with you. Interesting.

Cheers.

Oh then sorry vob person. You are correct in your single point of where Brady Murray was this past summer. Brilliant addition to the topic person. I would also point out that it has naught to do with what we are talking about and has already been discussed but since your point of view is shared by the mods and the majority I am sure that your (now this bit is merely an opinion based on what I have observed that isn't intended to hurt anyones feelings so please, let me know if they do so I can delete them ;) ) passive agressive name calling is nothing more than an extention of your desire to be noticed. Well person, you have been noticed. Cheers.
Cheers.

What else is there to say punchy? Murray wanted to play for Team Canada. Tried out for Team Canada. Wanted to play for Team Canada since he was a kid but chose not to play for them because he either doubted his abilities to make the team or felt that the brass at Hockey Canada would not give him a fair shake. He even contacted them to see if he could be given a spot on the team to which they replied he would have to earn it.

Along comes USA Hockey, makes him a lock for the team and the rest is history!

Some are saying he took the easy way out. Others are not to enamored with his ploy of contacting Team Canada in order to try and "weasel" a spot.

That is what this entire thread has been about.

Hope this helped you out a bit.

Tallyho Mate! (Oh sorry I guess Tallyho is more of British saying :dunno: )

Again, all points that have been covered. Thank you for displaying your firm grip on the obvious. Nice use of the word "weasel" as well. Let me write this out for you then, as it is obvious that you are still not able to grasp this important point.

Here goes nothing,
again,
none of us "experts" know why Brady did what he did for positive. We have our *opinions* on why but, unless you are Brady Murray or his Da or are one of the top brassers at Team Canada you are merely sharing your opinion and while that is fine, it is merely an opinion and no more valid than mine or anyone elses.

Since it is your opinion that Brady is a "weasel" or his actions were that of one, then I am merely trying to suggest that you are basing your opinion on one of two potential scenarios. One is that you are allowing your love of country to let you decide that anyone who doesn't do specifically what *you* believe to be in line with what a Canadian should do is wrong or a "weasel" and two, (although potentially part of the same) you are allowing what you have heard/read from the media to be the source for you information and since we know for a fact that Brady or Team Canada has yet to give any specific details of exactly what transpired between the two AND given the fact that it is pure truth that the media will bold face lie to us as long as they sell more papes or can squeeze out a rating point that you, person, might, and while I know you can't accept this possibility as made obvious by your attacks on me (which, I find to be wrong as the mods "warned" me for much less of an offence in my opinion as is thier rite and I am left to conclude that it is because my opinion were contrary to thiers,and potentially capable of being taken in the wrong manner)that you could actually be judging Brady guilty before knowing the facts and that is wrong if you believe in truth and freedom by my way of seeing things.

Now, this isn't meant as an attack as I refuse to take your tact but, if you are of a political belief that makes it alright to judge someone guilty prior to having all of the facts in place, then you and I have totally different mind sets and I won't be able to accept any of your opinions as I have no experience in that arena.

As I said, I refuse to stoop to your name calling and the tallyho thing is just an example of your being allowed to use language to taunt or attack me where I would never be afforded the same luxury. It is obvious that this is an attack at my being from another culture and if it were wrong for me to say that another poster is allowing thier hatered of another country to influence thier opinions then how are these "endings" to VOBs posts not of the same ilk?

Must be a cultural thing that I am not privy of.

Cheers again.

Punchy1. First off I am an American and I am glad that Brady is playing for us, as I believe him to be a very fine player. I simply used the word weasel because that is what alot of people considered his actions to represent.( I do not count myself as one of them.)

Secondly, everyone here knows why he chose to play for the U.S. Everyone but you that is. I have provided you one link and can even give you more if you'd like that provides evidence that Brady chose to play for the U.S. because he was given a spot. Had he been ensured a spot on Team Canada then there is no doubt in my mind, nor anyone else's (excluding you of course punchy1) that he would currently be sporting the red and white MINUS the blue!

Had I been in his shoes I probably would have done the same thing. Then of course this is coming from an American perspective. As I mentioned in another post, I wonder how we would feel if say a Robbie Schremp pulls the same stunt next year?

Of course we all know that the vile media can't be trusted punchy1 and Brady didn't really make those quotes. They were added in by the evil editors as they boarded their black helicopters to complete their mission of taking over the world and changing the face of humanity righ FOREVE!!! Right? :D

Once again, Cheers Mate.

Why is it so hard for you allow an opinion contrary to your own? The media has *never* lied to us before and would *never* do anything to stir up controversy and obviously as you have stated there is simply no chance that anyone could ever take what little Brady has said or the naught what Team Canada has said and spun it to stir up controversy. I have to say that I think that your take on things to me, and meant only as an observation, are astonishingly of a singular track.

Not in one of your links or "quotes" will there be any explenation providing all of the details. If you want to draw your own conclusions that make an 18 year old a "weasel" because you want to and for no other substantial reason than that well, please go right ahead and do so. You say you are an American well, have you heard of the sentence "innocent until proven guilty" and if so, do you understand what it means and if you do, can't you see that you are hanging Brady without knowing all of the details and how that goes against American (and Canadian among other countries) core beliefs?

Be as condesceding to me as you want to fellow, it only shows your true nature. I find it sad and childish but that is simply an opinion and not an attack and also, only said to show what I think of the words you chose to use and certainly not meant to describe you VOB the person.

I would find it poetic justice if in your life time you were to lose your freedom due to circumstancial evidence and when sent off during your trial they were to use one specific sentence you said out of many to hang you on your charges throwing out any and all other things that could be said on your character. In that moment it would be fitting to see exactly how you felt about circumstantial evidence. I know what you would say now, then might be another story.

Sorry you are not capable of allowing anyone elses opinions into a conversation without resorting to petty name calling and duplicitous insinuations. You might want to look into arguementation and debate as a corse of study at some time in your life. You are spending all of your time attacking my person and on one point in the topic and paying no attention to the actual rest of the topic. In that, you make no sense. I will close with that.

Cheers.

Punchy, allow me to go through this one last time.

Fact-Brady Murray tried out for Team Canada at the Summer Evaluation Camp.

Fact-Brady Murray wanted to play for team Canada ever since he was a tot.

Fact-Brady Murray contacted Hockey Canada about his chances of making the team.

Fact-Hockey Canada was noncommital and told him he would have to earn his spot.

Fact-Team USA gave him a spot on the team.

Fact-Brady Murray accepted.

The vast majority of us here have surmised from these facts (not circumstantial evidence but cold facts) that Brady was not very confident about making Team Canada so he went for the sure thing. Some have felt that this is a copout and that he should have at least tried out. No where have I said anything to demean Murray nor I have ever judged him for the decision he made. These are conclusions you have drawn.

As for the cold blooded media, well don't let those black helicopters keep you awake at night punchy1 :)

Once again a DOUBLE CHEERS TO YA MATE (note to the mods-in no way am I attempting to demean anyone's culture or nationality-;east of all our good freind punchy1 :D )

Punchy, allow me to go through this one last time.

Fact-Brady Murray tried out for Team Canada at the Summer Evaluation Camp.

Fact-Brady Murray wanted to play for team Canada ever since he was a tot.

Fact-Brady Murray contacted Hockey Canada about his chances of making the team.

Fact-Hockey Canada was noncommital and told him he would have to earn his spot.

Fact-Team USA gave him a spot on the team.

Fact-Brady Murray accepted.

The vast majority of us here have surmised from these facts (not circumstantial evidence but cold facts) that Brady was not very confident about making Team Canada so he went for the sure thing. Some have felt that this is a copout and that he should have at least tried out. No where have I said anything to demean Murray nor I have ever judged him for the decision he made. These are conclusions you have drawn.

As for the cold blooded media, well don't let those black helicopters keep you awake at night punchy1 :)

Once again a DOUBLE CHEERS TO YA MATE (note to the mods-in no way am I attempting to demean anyone's culture or nationality-;east of all our good freind punchy1 :D )

Hey, what about us guys to the west of our good friend Punchy1!!!!

Stunning VOB, simply astonishing and stunning. Lets try it at a level that you might have a shot at understanding since standard debate appears tp have elluded your skills in this issue so far.

Fact-Not only have I said that every one of your facts regarding what Brady has said or done concering his participation with team Canada are not in question in several different ways and several times but I have indeed *MADE THE EXACT SAME COMMENTS IN MY EARLY THREADS*.

Fact- Let me quote you on this one mate because it is where you fall down again and again and again and again and again and again and again, "most of us have SURMISED from THESE FACTS" etc.

Your "Summations" are *OPINIONS* based on PORTIONS of what you know ACTUALLY HAPPENED and NOTHING more than that.

They aren't based on *all of the possible information* because YOU, I, nor anyone else here knows ALL of the possible reasons for Murrays decisions. regardless of what you might *SURMISE, SUPPOSE, THINK, OPINE, SPECULATE, or FEEL*, mate.

Fact- I have said as much SEVERAL different times and yet still, you have shown no ability to differentiate between what is FACT and what is OPINION. What Brady said where indeed FACTS, what you feel about why he said them and the situations that he might have said them in are OPINIONS. (you might say that you are speculating or surmising your *opinions* based solely on what he said and NOT on ALL of the potential truths)

Fact- You have now gone on record as having Lied.

To quote you "others are not enamored with his contacting Team Canada in order to try and "weasel" a spot. You say that you have said "nothing to demean Murray" in one post and call him and his actions those of a "weasel" in another.

Fact- I have NEVER contested, as I said above and serveral, several other times that Brady were wanting play for Canada or went to camp or made his quote etc. Fact is, I am ONLY CONTESTING ONE POINT and that is that you, regardless of your double talking, as are so many others, angry at what ended up happening and (now here again is the tricky bit so read it a couple of times if it doesn't come quickly and don't take offence to this bit, I truly am trying to break through here) you don't know ALL of the possible reasons for what he ended up doing so you might want to hold onto your anger until you do. Simply that little bit right there mate.

Fact- You can lolly on about how you don't mean your obvious taunts as attacks but your sad and hackneyed attempts at bullying me through using my own common language (so you might unerstand, *using words that I use often and you never, ever use prior to trying try and take a piss at me*)is absolutely easy for anyone who reads them to see as nothing more than bashing me for speaking differently.

It is a case of your point of view, including the fact that you are taunting and trying to mock me as being acceptable to the mods because in this case they share your opinion on the topic. That is what it appears like to me.

Fact- I were dealt with differently for a much, much lesser statement in my opinion (and a couple of others who read what I had written and told me via pm and on the boards that they didn't see anything offencive in it) which wasn't intended as anything close to a taunt but an observation and you are allowed to over and over again take your pathetic shots at me. Fine with me mate, I am aware of the specific type of person you are and your *wanting* deductive skills.

You seem to speak from a position of authority on paranoia regarding the media and have said things that I never once have even come close to proposing (again, could be the reading comprehension problem, I don't truly know why) and that again is evidence that you truly don't understand the basics of what I am saying or are simply trying to force an angry response from me and mate, that just isn't possible. I won't come close to getting angry over the internet, challenged? Sure, confounded? You bet, angry, that isn't the kind of bloke I am mate.

Also note to mods, I expect that since I am of a contrary point of view on this topic that I will be again quesioned on the responses in this post. I posted several times that I had no intention of offending anyone by my posts in this thread and while I made very specific changes to the manner in which I post so to assure I wouldn't possibly be offending anyone, I have watched VOB be allowed to take shots at me and make obvious pokes at me and the way I speak. If I have been offencive, it weren't my intention and again, let me know if I have so that I can remove the offencive language.

Having said that, would bet you any dosh you want that if you went through all of VOB's threads you will never find the words "Tallyho, Mate, Cheerio" or any other obviously intended taunts that he had made.

Normally, no skin to me mates, I would be laughing at them and certainly would take little if any offence. Its just that, in this situation, where I were warned and told to change what I said regarding my opinion concerning another poster by saying nothing more than he had allowed his hatered of another country cloud his ability to show any reason in debating issues where they were concerned, I find it odd that VOB isn't being shown the same consideration when he is obviously using words that he would never use to try and taunt an angry reaction out of me.

Like I said,none is comming but, if the rules apply to me then they should apply to all. I were told that we don't take shots (though as said, I had no intention of taking a shot where my warning were concerned) at other posters and "don't debate that way" and yet, here we are.

I am done with this topic as I am tired of trying to explain an easy enough concept to a person who doesn't have the tools to understand it, (merely an observation based on how many times I have had to try and explain it and not meant as calling him stupid or anything like that)and also, am tired of trying to force a touch of reason into a situation where it truly isn't wanted.

Go on mates, bash at Brady, he is a weasel who had a piss on Canada and deserves to be shunned for ever, never to speak his name again. ;)

Cheers mates.

This thread is done.

The debate has become personal, and that doesn't fly here.