Souray a Devil?

SOURAY AS A DEVIL???

Sheldon Souray becomes an Unrestricted Free Agent this Summer.

Time and again, Shelly has credited his original NHL team, New Jersey, as providing a foundation for his career. Souray also is a partner with Martin Brodeur in a Montreal pizza business. That means that the lads talk.

Perhaps Marty will provide a bit of friendly persuasion that will help bring Sheldon back to the Garden State. I hope so. Souray not only owns the best slapper from the point but he also is one of the classiest guys I've ever met.

http://blogs.msg.com/the_maven/2007/05/souray_a_devil.html

I wouldn't mind seeing him come back. He can only improve our defense if we lose Rafalski.

Wouldn't pay him more than $4.5M. So I don't want him.

Wouldn't pay him more than $4.5M. So I don't want him.
I don't think I'd even be that generous.

Souray only had 9 more points than Rafalski this season, but Souray was a -28 and racked up 135 PIMs. Not interested.

I don't care how hard his shot is, or how good he is on the power play, we really don't need someone who was a -28 this season. Being that power play and short handed situations don't count towards a player's +/-, he seems to have done more bad then good.

No.

The pp was pathetic down the stretch and a main reason why the guys didn't advance further in the playoffs. His presence is needed.

If Marty can woo Souray for $3 million....make it happen.

The pp was pathetic down the stretch and a main reason why the guys didn't advance further in the playoffs. His presence is needed.

Like I said in another thread, his below average defensive play kind of makes his power play prowess moot if you ask me. He's just as likely to score on the powerplay and make a bad defensive play to lead to a goal. And he is going to cost a ton to sign. I'd much rather take Rafalski, who may not be the PP QB that Souray is, but still contributes offensively and holds his own in the defensive end. I just can't see the Devils carrying a one-dimensional player like Souray.

Too injury prone. He'll play 50 games out of the 82. Not worth the top $$$ he'll demand. White with a better shot, no thanks.

I don't want a defenseman who doesn't play defense.

When you look at certain players, you have to take the good with the bad, and decide if the good outweighs the bad. Someone is going to pay Gomez a huge salary, even though he isn't great defensively, and has 75-80+ point seasons, and then 50-60 point seasons. A 33 goal season, and now a 13 goal season. Why? because his ability to make others better will be worth it in the long run.

In my opinion the same can be said for Souray. Sure he isn't extraordinary defensively, he takes penalties too. But his other qualities more than make up for his short comings. He was a -28 this season, but he's also finished a +18, +5, +7, and +9 during his 7 season NHL career. I'm a firm believer that his -28 is largely due to situation, rather than ability. Of 8 dmen to play for Montreal this year, 2 finished with a combined +9. Every other dman was a minus. There was a lot of hate against Brad Stuart around the time he was traded because of his -22 in Boston. He was traded to Calgary and through 27 games was a +12. Whether you want to believe it or not, you place Rafalski on a team without a defensive mind set, and on the outside looking in, he may be better than -28 but not by much.

You also can't look past the Marty Brodeur factor. Defensemen playing for the devils are playing in front of the best goalie in the world just about everytime they play. Sorry, but Aebischer, Huet, Halak and whoever, combined aren't Marty Brodeur. You can't take that for granted if you are looking solely at +/-.

What he would bring is size, grit, production from the defense combined with the best point shot in the league. Which one of those things hasn't been mentioned as a devils need this off-season? In my opinion it just makes more sense to go for the younger, bigger, more productive dman even if it means paying more than Rafalski. Granted im on the side that says, there's a definite limit, but it's certainly more than rafalski's salary.

Sure he isn't extraordinary defensively, he takes penalties too.

First of all, why would the Devils, who play defensive style hockey, want as defenseman who isn't good at defense? It defeats the purpose of playing the position. Second, we already have pleanty of players who take enough penalties- White, Matvichuk, and Rupp, to name a few. The last thing this team needs is a bad defenseman who takes a lot of penalties.

I wouldn't want him anywhere but on the PP, and that won't work because he wants a huge salary and top pairing minutes, so NO.

We have an almost as good slapper in Greene. (97 mph and developing)

First of all, why would the Devils, who play defensive style hockey, want as defenseman who isn't good at defense? It defeats the purpose of playing the position. Second, we already have pleanty of players who take enough penalties- White, Matvichuk, and Rupp, to name a few. The last thing this team needs is a bad defenseman who takes a lot of penalties.

It might be your opinion that he's not even good on defense, but the word I used was "extraordinary". My feeling is that while he's not extraordinary defensively, he's not as bad as his -28 rating. Also, the point of my post was that I feel his good qualities out weight his bad ones. In terms of penalty minutes, you have to remember that fighting majors add up, and don't necessarily put your team short handed. Quite a few fighting majors contributed to his PIM's.

Also, Zdeno Chara takes alot of penalties as well, but brings enough to the table where he's still considered an elite dman. As a side note Chara enjoyed seasons of +17, +24, +33, +30, +29 with Ottawa, and this season was a -21 with Boston. My point is the +/- stat is very situational.

I just feel too much is made of the -28 number, and not enough of what he does on the ice. If you put many of the devils defensmen on certain teams, I would predict that they too would not have an incredible +/-.

if souray wants a 3/9 deal, i would do it. but:

1) Rafalski must be signed first

2) Souray will get much more from several other teams

It might be your opinion that he's not even good on defense, but the word I used was "extraordinary". My feeling is that while he's not extraordinary defensively, he's not as bad as his -28 rating. Also, the point of my post was that I feel his good qualities out weight his bad ones. In terms of penalty minutes, you have to remember that fighting majors add up, and don't necessarily put your team short handed. Quite a few fighting majors contributed to his PIM's.

Also, Zdeno Chara takes alot of penalties as well, but brings enough to the table where he's still considered an elite dman. As a side note Chara enjoyed seasons of +17, +24, +33, +30, +29 with Ottawa, and this season was a -21 with Boston. My point is the +/- stat is very situational.

I just feel too much is made of the -28 number, and not enough of what he does on the ice. If you put many of the devils defensmen on certain teams, I would predict that they too would not have an incredible +/-.
He had three fights this year. Take out those 15 minutes of PIMs, and that leaves 120 PIMs. Janssen led the Devils in PIMs this year with 114. And the much-maligned Colin White only had 69 PIMs. Souray had almost twice the penalty minutes that White had, and many people here think White takes too many penalties.

As for the -28, he had the worst +/- on his team. The next worst defenseman on the Habs was Niinimaa at a -13, and the next worst defenseman who played a majority (at least 70) of the Habs games was Mark Streit at a -5. And while the Habs weren't a playoff team, they were in the battle for that final spot until almost the last day, it's not like they were fighting for a lottery pick.

Souray is nowhere near as bad as people say he is. The entire hab team except 3 players were in minus. our team is the worse 5 on 5 and this is not sheldon's fault. look at our +/-. Sheldon is great at killing penalties. he is overused in mtl and plays too much 5 on 5. People make their opinions about him based on a couple highlights where he was beaten by great players. big deal!!! He is not a good defensive d man, he is a respectable one. He is always standing up for his teammates and is a great pugilist. Clears the crease pretty well. Is a GREAT leader. His positives outweigths his negatives. Here in habland we would like to see him stay (well, most of us) He won us a bunch of games last year. More than he made us lose!

No No No

Sheldon is great at killing penalties. he is overused in mtl and plays too much 5 on 5.

There's a lot more 5 on 5 time then PK and PP time, so if he's not good at 5 on 5, he's really not all that valuable. When you think about it, he puts his team short handed too much, which is never really good, especially if he's one of their penalty killers. Like it's been said, he's only gotten into three fights, which leaves 120 PIMs where they were most likely short handed. The +/- only counts for 5 on 5 time, and a -28 says a lot. The point is, the Devils don't need a defenseman like him. We need a defensive defenseman more than an offensive defenseman.

He is not a good defensive d man, he is a respectable one.
When you look at how much he signs for this summer, ask yourself "would I pay this much for a respectable defenseman?"

Brad Lukowich is a respectable defenseman, Souray is a waste of cash.

He had three fights this year. Take out those 15 minutes of PIMs, and that leaves 120 PIMs. Janssen led the Devils in PIMs this year with 114. And the much-maligned Colin White only had 69 PIMs. Souray had almost twice the penalty minutes that White had, and many people here think White takes too many penalties.

As for the -28, he had the worst +/- on his team. The next worst defenseman on the Habs was Niinimaa at a -13, and the next worst defenseman who played a majority (at least 70) of the Habs games was Mark Streit at a -5. And while the Habs weren't a playoff team, they were in the battle for that final spot until almost the last day, it's not like they were fighting for a lottery pick.

However, Souray also averaged a good amount more ice time per game than both Streit and Niinimaa, so it shows the +/- stat is still a very deep, situational stat.

White was also given a 6 year 3 mil contract, with a NTC coming off of several consecutive years being slightly under, or way over 100 PIM's. Why? because White brings more to the table than just his PIM's. Obviously Lou felt the same way.

You're right that the Habs weren't exactly terrible, it's true. However they had a revolving door in net, and couldn't get any consistency there, with Aebischer really stinking it up as I remember. Also, having a lengthy period of a standings plummet, surely didn't contribute in any way. And, even still, there were 18 teams with more points in the league, so they also weren't exactly a power house.

I may be the only one, and thats ok, but penalty minutes and a stat that hinges largely on where/when you play (Souray was a + every year he played for Jersey) aren't enough to discourage me from thinking that the addition of Souray would fill a lot of the devils holes (size, grit, point shot, d production).

I'm with devs4l here, I think Souray is better defensively than people are giving him credit. He's not great but he hits, is big and has a hard shot, something we desperately need from the point. That said, the amount I'd pay does have a limit but he is not as bad in his zone as some people make him about to be. Especially when we are defending Rafalski who for the first third of the season and the second round of the playoffs was a horror show defensively. Souray can at least move people off the puck, Raffy really struggled with the body in the playoffs. Not saying I want Souray more or he is better but Raffy did not hold his own in his end alot this year. Sorry.

Seriously, It's over. Time to rebuild. I like Sheldon, but no. If we don't rebuild, we need SIZE.

I'd rather pay Souray $4.5 million than Rafalski.

I'd rather pay Souray $4.5 million than Rafalski.
Not a chance.

oh hell no

Pot+HF= :shakehead

I'd rather pay Souray $4.5 million than Rafalski.

Agreed at least Souray doesn't get run over every other play like in the Ottawa series.

But he gets schooled by Jason Spezza.

But he gets schooled by Jason Spezza.

I was trying to find a u-tube or a link for that schooling, is there one?

I'd rather pay Souray $4.5 million than Rafalski.

You and the omen.

You're in great company there.

Agreed at least Souray doesn't get run over every other play like in the Ottawa series.

Maybe Rafalski got pushed around by the sens but he didn't look this stupid....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbKw3oAWgl8

And you want to sign this guy :biglaugh:

I though that the Devils organisation was based on defense first, so that means that there's no way in HELL that Lou signs this chump... NONE !!!!

Agreed at least Souray doesn't get run over every other play like in the Ottawa series.
They skate around him and put the puck through his legs instead.

The guy had 19 PPG's last season...as a D man that is incredible. Definately worth the money. Plus he adds some needed size/physical presence that lacks with guys like Martin, Oduya, Rafalski, Greene...
Also very good friends with Marty who always said (jokingly of course) he needs at least one other French Canadien on the team in order to win a cup...95 Lemieux and Richer...00 Lemieux...03 Rheaume

If anything. I figure candidate number 1 to pursue Souray with be the Penguins.

If anything. I figure candidate number 1 to pursue Souray with be the Penguins.

Why would they need a worse version of Gonchar?

The guy had 19 PPG's last season...as a D man that is incredible. Definately worth the money. Plus he adds some needed size/physical presence that lacks with guys like Martin, Oduya, Rafalski, Greene...
Also very good friends with Marty who always said (jokingly of course) he needs at least one other French Canadien on the team in order to win a cup...95 Lemieux and Richer...00 Lemieux...03 Rheaume

I don't know if I'm reading this correctly but are you saying that Souray is french canadien ??? And if so.... :help:

Here's Souray's good points:

- He has one hell of a shot... ON THE PP.

Here's Souray's bad points:

- everything else that wasn't mentioned aboved !!!!!

Maybe Rafalski got pushed around by the sens but he didn't look this stupid....



Obviously you missed some of Rafalski's complete giveaways to set up clean breakaways. Again, not saying Souray is better but Raffy has looked plenty bad plenty of times the past couple of seasons. He is not consistent and when he is off his game, he gives the puck away more than any Devils dman.

If Marty can woo Souray for $3 million....make it happen.

Ha, if anything, Souray will double that.

Markov signed a 5.75 mil per contract, I see Souray getting 6-6.5

Obviously you missed some of Rafalski's complete giveaways to set up clean breakaways. Again, not saying Souray is better but Raffy has looked plenty bad plenty of times the past couple of seasons. He is not consistent and when he is off his game, he gives the puck away more than any Devils dman.

I'll take Rafalski over Souray any day of the week + the weekend. Raffi almost reached the same point total that Souray got but if we compare the defensive side of it... it's not even fare.


SOURAY SUCKS PEOPLE, HE JUST SUCKS..... PLAIN AND SIMPLE !!!!!

The pp was pathetic down the stretch and a main reason why the guys didn't advance further in the playoffs. His presence is needed.

The D was pathetic down the stretch and a main reason why the guys didn't advance further in the playoffs.

Bringing in a PP cannon to bolster your not-so-good defense gets what you deserve,
an even worse defense, because Souray has to eat minutes for the money he makes.

Not a chance.

I would have prior to getting CI and seeing him more. He's an average d-man
and for the price you need more than that. If he was a monster d-man, he
certainly wouldn't have let that Crosby 1 on 4 goal happen on his watch.

I'll take Rafalski over Souray any day of the week + the weekend. Raffi almost reached the same point total that Souray got but if we compare the defensive side of it... it's not even fare.


SOURAY SUCKS PEOPLE, HE JUST SUCKS..... PLAIN AND SIMPLE !!!!!

You are giving Rafalski WAY to much credit defensively. He has not performed in his zone consistently at all the past 2 years and he has no physical presence at all. If anything, the past two years they have had to move him AWAY from the other teams top forwards because he clearly can't handle the job. Martin, White, Lukowich and Matvichuk all were better than Raffy defensively in the playoffs, he is not leaps and bounds above Souray at all.

I would not say Souray Sucks.... I will say Souray is on the down side of his career.... He is injury prone and getting older... No need to throw millions at him. I'd rather have Rafalski...

Crosby and Spezza have made many dmen/goalies look foolish. It happens. Those 2 are incredible players. Off the top of my head I can also remember Rafalski getting burned by Briere 2 times in the same game this year, which resulted in 2 goals, and ultimately a loss. When was the last time Rafalski won a battle along the boards for a puck? When you look at the fact that there were several occasions of sustained pressure in the devils end, not winning the battles, and not having size and strength was a major contributing factor. Souray would help in that department also.

Sure Rafalski only had 9 less points, but he also had 18 less goals. I like Rafalski, and realize he's been key to the devils success, and is a great dman. But, making Rafalski out to be clearly the better dman is just not the case.

Sorry but again to me, d-production (he had about 2x as many goals as our entire d, 26-14), rocket point shot, grit, leadership, size, strength, getting slightly younger on d, the much talked about need for some hunger and a fresh face, the possibility of having Greene on one PP unit and Souray on the other, the possibility of Gio's production going up if he's on the same unit with Souray far outweighs his PIM's and objectable +/-.

I can't understand why some people would rather have a defensman who is better offensively than defensively? We have a talented offense -although sometimes it doesn't show. We have Parise, Gionta, and pleanty of others to score, what we need is someone who's better in our zone. Yes, our PP can use a lot of work, but there's a lot less PP time than full strenght time. Souray will be looking for more money than Rafalski, too, and I think Rafalski will be more worth what he'll end up getting than Souray will. I'd rather have Rafalski, his 55 points and better defnsive play then Souray, his 64 points, and better offensive play.

I would have prior to getting CI and seeing him more. He's an average d-man
and for the price you need more than that. If he was a monster d-man, he
certainly wouldn't have let that Crosby 1 on 4 goal happen on his watch.
My thoughts exactly. When you're shelling out those kinds of bucks you need a guy that you want out there in the last minute of a game with a 1 goal lead. I'd rather give that money to a top shut down defenseman than a slightly better defensively Bryan McCabe.

Souray is Colin White with a slapper. I'd MUCH MUCH MUCH rather pay for someone like Visnovsky than Souray.

I'd MUCH MUCH MUCH rather pay for someone like Visnovsky than Souray.

I completely agree with that, I'm just more saying that Rafalski is not light years better than Souray.

I completely agree with that, I'm just more saying that Rafalski is not light years better than Souray.
He is on the right side of the puck.

I completely agree with that, I'm just more saying that Rafalski is not light years better than Souray.

The difference between Souray and Rafalski is about 40 pounds and 5 inches... wich is the reason why Rafalski isn't nailing people through the boards. But the thing is that Sheldon IS 6'2 and 200 something pounds and he hits just as hard as Raffy !!!

Brian is a positional d-men, for obvious reasons of course... just like Dan Boyle and Brian Campbell. And if you ask me, I'd pick Raffi, Boyle or Campbell WAYYYYYYYYYYY before Souray, who B.T.W. is going to demand about 1.5M$ to 2M$ more then what Rafalski is going to get.

Basically my point being is that we don't need a PP specialist on the point with a rocket of a shot... WE NEED A COMPLETE D-MEN THAT CAN WORK THE PP WITH A ROCKET SHOT, AND SOURAY ISN'T THE ANSWER.

The difference between Souray and Rafalski is about 40 pounds and 5 inches... wich is the reason why Rafalski isn't nailing people through the boards. But the thing is that Sheldon IS 6'2 and 200 something pounds and he hits just as hard as Raffy !!!

Brian is a positional d-men, for obvious reasons of course... just like Dan Boyle and Brian Campbell. And if you ask me, I'd pick Raffi, Boyle or Campbell WAYYYYYYYYYYY before Souray, who B.T.W. is going to demand about 1.5M$ to 2M$ more then what Rafalski is going to get.

Basically my point being is that we don't need a PP specialist on the point with a rocket of a shot... WE NEED A COMPLETE D-MEN THAT CAN WORK THE PP WITH A ROCKET SHOT, AND SOURAY ISN'T THE ANSWER.

And my point is if you are calling Rafalski a complete Dman the way he's played the last 2 years you are letting your appreciation of what he helped us win in the past blind you to his play this past 2 seasons. he has not been strong on the "right side of the puck" as it was eloquently put, consistently these past 2 years at all. In the postseason he has been downright brutal and was completely removed away from St Louis and Lecavalier because they were eating him alive, bumping him off pucks, picking off his clearing passes and outskating him. Brian Campbell is a much more complete dman than rafalski. You want to say Raffi is a better bargain because he will cost less that's fine but a much more complete dman than Souray he definitely is not.

When comparing Souray and Rafalski's numbers, you dont really think needing him would do that much for us. But just think of Gionta causing havoc in front of the net, and that nasty slapper by Souray. We need a powerplay next year......

He is on the right side of the puck.

Sorry but he is not - he was brutal in the playoffs and had a few games in the season where he completely gave the game away with terrible give aways. By the end of the playoffs I felt safer when Lukowich was on the ice than Rafalski. :(

Sorry but he is not - he was brutal in the playoffs and had a few games in the season where he completely gave the game away with terrible give aways. By the end of the playoffs I felt safer when Lukowich was on the ice than Rafalski. :(
Rafalski makes a few mistakes with outlet passes. Souray makes mistakes everywhere.

Rafalski makes a few mistakes with outlet passes. Souray makes mistakes everywhere.

Way exagerated, like Raffi didn't make mistakes in the offensive zone trying to step up to keep pucks in and get burned? might want to watch that Devils Sabre game that he gave away to Briere over. But well we'll just have to agree to disagree. Somehow I think though Raffi won't be seeing anywhere near the $$$ offers Souray will in the offseason, so I think the GMs pretty much disagree with you.

Somehow I think though Raffi won't be seeing anywhere near the $$$ offers Souray will in the offseason...

This is very true. You can't just always pass off big contracts as GM's being stupid with their money either. GM's are in their position for a reason, and we're here discussing this subject for a reason. Souray will most likely be more sought after, and given more money than Rafalski, and there are reasons for that. To me, it's very telling.

Way exagerated, like Raffi didn't make mistakes in the offensive zone trying to step up to keep pucks in and get burned?

Who said Rafalski never makes mistakes? There isn't one player on any team who doesn't make mistakes, but Souray makes more than Rafalski. Again, I'd rather have Rafalski and all he offers for less than Souray and what he may offer, no matter how much better he is offensively. I think the main problem people have with Souray is he may be better offensively, but face it, he's not as good defensively. Our PP could use a lot of work, but that's not all that matters. We need to work on strengthening the defense more than the power play. In some games, we only get two or three PPs. How much use will he be in those games?

The difference between Souray and Rafalski is about 40 pounds and 5 inches... wich is the reason why Rafalski isn't nailing people through the boards. But the thing is that Sheldon IS 6'2 and 200 something pounds and he hits just as hard as Raffy !!!

Brian is a positional d-men, for obvious reasons of course... just like Dan Boyle and Brian Campbell. And if you ask me, I'd pick Raffi, Boyle or Campbell WAYYYYYYYYYYY before Souray, who B.T.W. is going to demand about 1.5M$ to 2M$ more then what Rafalski is going to get.

Basically my point being is that we don't need a PP specialist on the point with a rocket of a shot... WE NEED A COMPLETE D-MEN THAT CAN WORK THE PP WITH A ROCKET SHOT, AND SOURAY ISN'T THE ANSWER.

I agree with every damn thing you said.

Souray will most likely be more sought after, and given more money than Rafalski, and there are reasons for that. To me, it's very telling.

The reason for that is his numbers offensively, and how much he wants. Rafalski is less impressive offensively, but -IMO- better defensively, and he knows where he wants to play, so he'll probably sign there -here-, regardless of how much other teams may offer.

Maybe Rafalski got pushed around by the sens but he didn't look this stupid....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbKw3oAWgl8

And you want to sign this guy :biglaugh:

I though that the Devils organisation was based on defense first, so that means that there's no way in HELL that Lou signs this chump... NONE !!!!

There it is baby!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!:biglaugh::biglaugh::bi glaugh:

Who said Rafalski never makes mistakes? There isn't one player on any team who doesn't make mistakes, but Souray makes more than Rafalski.

Please find the quote where I said either one is perfect to back up your childish opening line please. If you've been reading , what everyone has actually been saying is Raffi doesn't make as many mistakes as Souray and I am completely disagreeing and saying he does, try to keep up here. Its been the same argument for about a page, but way to take it and make it into a lame ass exageration.

Again, I'd rather have Rafalski and all he offers for less than Souray and what he may offer, no matter how much better he is offensively.

Fine. Fair argument and one i've said I could agree with. My point for the one thousandth time is Raffi isn't that much better than Souray in his zone.

I think the main problem people have with Souray is he may be better offensively, but face it, he's not as good defensively.

And to people who make that point I say you are living in the past and not watching his current play. There is nothing to face, its a difference of opinion and I'm sorry in a cap era if Souray was so much worse defensively and not bringing that much more to the table offensively, as someone pointed out the point differential between the two is minimal, he wouldn't be facing such a bigger windfall in free agency. Its just not realistic.

Our PP could use a lot of work, but that's not all that matters. We need to work on strengthening the defense more than the power play. In some games, we only get two or three PPs. How much use will he be in those games?

Considering how many games we lost by one goal, getting a PPG on one of those would be huge.

And we also stole plenty of games this year. Throwing 6 million to a PP specialist is not the answer. We have other glaring holes on this team.

And we also stole plenty of games this year. Throwing 6 million to a PP specialist is not the answer. We have other glaring holes on this team.

I agree, and to me its size up front and on our checking line. I just don't buy into the whole Rafalski is so much better defensively than Souray thing that's all.

We have too many players we consider to be the core and it's not good for us at all. Some were given very questionable contracts and now we are stuck with them for a while. And it sucks because Gomez is the one that has to go. If the cap is going up to 52 I still wouldn't be throwing money around this year, the FA is pretty weak.

Please find the quote where I said either one is perfect to back up your childish opening line please. If you've been reading , what everyone has actually been saying is Raffi doesn't make as many mistakes as Souray and I am completely disagreeing and saying he does, try to keep up here. Its been the same argument for about a page, but way to take it and make it into a lame ass exageration.

Way exagerated, like Raffi didn't make mistakes in the offensive zone trying to step up to keep pucks in and get burned?

The way that you said nothing in that post about Souray making mistakes is what gave that impression off.

Fine. Fair argument and one i've said I could agree with. My point for the one thousandth time is Raffi isn't that much better than Souray in his zone.

If you ask me, the +/- of both players says differently.

And to people who make that point I say you are living in the past and not watching his current play. There is nothing to face, its a difference of opinion and I'm sorry in a cap era if Souray was so much worse defensively and not bringing that much more to the table offensively, as someone pointed out the point differential between the two is minimal, he wouldn't be facing such a bigger windfall in free agency. Its just not realistic.

I've seen his recent play, and I don't think it's really what we need. So what, Rafalski isn't a million times better than him in his zone, he's still better, and that's really all that matters. Rafalski's game needs work, but Souray's needs more. I don't think spending money on him that could be used on a better defenseman or a first line center is a smart idea.

Considering how many games we lost by one goal, getting a PPG on one of those would be huge.

Look at Montreal. They've had their fair share of one goal losses, too. Are you saying they all could have been won, had they scored more PPGs, or that we would win most of them, if we had him on the PP? Going by some plays I've seen him make, I don't think they could have been won, even if we did have him on the PP.

I would go out and say that the size issue is a bigger need than defense.

The way that you said nothing in that post about Souray making mistakes is what gave that impression off.
.

Because it was in response to this post.....Rafalski makes a few mistakes with outlet passes. Souray makes mistakes everywhere....I mean it was right above it dude, not that hard to follow.


If you ask me, the +/- of both players says differently.
.
But you are comparing plus minus from one team that has a small goal differential to one that has a huge one, of course Raffi's should be better, Devs play tighter syle of play and have a better goalie and a defense first system. Have to look beyond the stats there for a complete picture.


I've seen his recent play, and I don't think it's really what we need. So what, Rafalski isn't a million times better than him in his zone, he's still better, and that's really all that matters. Rafalski's game needs work, but Souray's needs more. I don't think spending money on him that could be used on a better defenseman or a first line center is a smart idea.


I was saying look at Rafalski recent play, the last 2 years he has been wildly inconsistent and sorry but not a million times better than Souray in his zone. Disagree completely. And again, never ever have I said in this thread I would spend this money on him over Gomez or any other of our holes.


Look at Montreal. They've had their fair share of one goal losses, too. Are you saying they all could have been won, had they scored more PPGs, or that we would win most of them, if we had him on the PP? Going by some plays I've seen him make, I don't think they could have been won, even if we did have him on the PP.

Ok now we are comparing apples to oranges. No Montreal would have won more games had they had a decent goalie. Switch Souray and Raffi and I highly doubt their record gets any better. I'm not even saying vice versa that ours would be either, I personally think they are about even. That's my point. I think Souray could help our power play more because we have 3 finesse guys on the point in Raffi, Martin and now Greene, what we don't have is a booming shot although it does appear Greene may have one. And again you are taking things out of context, you asked how much of a difference he could make on those power plays in a game if we only get 2 or 3. One power play goal at the right time can turn a game around and considering how tight a style we play it could make a difference.

We have too many players we consider to be the core and it's not good for us at all. Some were given very questionable contracts and now we are stuck with them for a while. And it sucks because Gomez is the one that has to go. If the cap is going up to 52 I still wouldn't be throwing money around this year, the FA is pretty weak.

Well that's just it, I think Raffi is getting a free pass at his defensive lapses lately because he has been a core player for us for so long.

I think he's made great strides this year for us. I don't know the numbers but he logs a lot of ice time and in every situation for the Devils. I think Souray will drive us crazy with the mistakes he makes.

This is very true. You can't just always pass off big contracts as GM's being stupid with their money either. GM's are in their position for a reason, and we're here discussing this subject for a reason. Souray will most likely be more sought after, and given more money than Rafalski, and there are reasons for that. To me, it's very telling.

Yes, it's because Souray fills a need that a lot of teams have and that's primarily to score on the power play, something Rafalski isn't particularly strong at.

The problem is if you're going to base how good a player is on his salary offers, you'd have to claim that Khabibulin is a better than Brodeur.

Yes, it's because Souray fills a need that a lot of teams have and that's primarily to score on the power play, something Rafalski isn't particularly strong at.

The problem is if you're going to base how good a player is on his salary offers, you'd have to claim that Khabibulin is a better than Brodeur.

You can't base a players on ice value, by his off ice monetary value, no. However my point is that (to simply piggy-back off your same example): If both Khabibulin and Brodeur were UFA's this year (as with Souray and Rafalski this year), it's fairly easy to assume Brodeur would be in greater demand. This would simply show that in the opinion of the majority of GM's, Brodeur is the more valuable player, whether it would be to fill one or more needs.

Thats really all my point was, was being that the general consensus is that Souray will be in more demand than Rafalski, a majority of GM's are of the same mind that Souray would bring more value than Rafalski. The monetary factor is just the means to give yourself the best chance at obtaining the player. However the fact is still present that Souray would be in greater demand than Rafalski.

Seriously, It's over. Time to rebuild. I like Sheldon, but no. If we don't rebuild, we need SIZE.

rebuild? if im rebuilding (which im not if im the devils) im not starting with sheldon souray.

if souray does become a devils he mind as well file for bankruptcy for his and marty's restaruaunt in montreal cause there will be noone eating there no matter how good the food is

Lets sign Schneider for power plays, and Hannan for Penalty Kills.

theres not enough languages to say no for souray

Lets sign Schneider for power plays, and Hannan for Penalty Kills.

And Giguere for backup goalie.

And Giguere for backup goalie.

Hey if the cap goes to 52M...........we can afford Schneider and Hannan

theres not enough languages to say no for souray

Music to my eyes !!!

I don't mean to be rude Drewr15 but how many Habs games did you watch last year ??? Having to live in Montreal, I can honestly say that I've watched at least 60 and elias026 can problably fill you in on the lack of defense Sheldon brings to the habs.

Like I said before, Souray is this years version of McCabe. He had a CRAZY offensive season (that I dought he'll be able to duplicate) matched with a mediocre defensive performance (that won't suprise me if he does duplicate it) and he'll get MAJOR BUCKS because some stupid GM will overpay another stupid GM just to get a hard shot on his PP. Ask any Leafs fans if having McCabe around for the next 4 years with a 6M$ cap hit is worth it...

Music to my eyes !!!

I don't mean to be rude Drewr15 but how many Habs games did you watch last year ??? Having to live in Montreal, I can honestly say that I've watched at least 60 and elias026 can problably fill you in on the lack of defense Sheldon brings to the habs.

Like I said before, Souray is this years version of McCabe. He had a CRAZY offensive season (that I dought he'll be able to duplicate) matched with a mediocre defensive performance (that won't suprise me if he does duplicate it) and he'll get MAJOR BUCKS because some stupid GM will overpay another stupid GM just to get a hard shot on his PP. Ask any Leafs fans if having McCabe around for the next 4 years with a 6M$ cap hit is worth it...

I have center ice, and while I can't put an exact number on it I've seen probably between 20 to 30 Habs games this year and I've seen all 82 Devils games and again, sorry, Raffi is not that much better in his zone. As I said to Classic Devils, we will have to just agree to disagree on this. And while souray had his best offensive season, he also had his worse plus minus one by far, he may never duplicate the offense again but I doubt he will ever duplicate such a bad plus minus again either.

I think he's made great strides this year for us. I don't know the numbers but he logs a lot of ice time and in every situation for the Devils. I think Souray will drive us crazy with the mistakes he makes.

Personally to me Raffi has gone backwards. These past 2 years were the worst I've seen him play as a Devil consistency wise. He had some excellent stretches but he had some god awful ones were he was mistake prone and give away happy. He did log alot of ice time at times but I really question if he averaged that much more than in the past when he was playing with Stevens, they were out there alot together and he was playing PP then too. And by the end he was not playing in every situation because he was killing them in it. He was not being matched against the top lines anymore nor was he playing penalty kill when matvichuk, white, martin and lukowich were all healthy. He was starting to become a liability in his zone, the coaching staff saw it and were keeping him away from alot of those situations he used to be capable of playing in. Now its like you have to hope he is in his hot streak otherwise you almost have to hide him defensively.

Oh well, this whole argument is going nowhere, and Souray is never coming here because we can't afford him. I just hope Raffi can find his game again because at this point I don't think he is worth 4m for such one dimensional play.

Playing without Scott or Scott is a big adjustment to make. Anyways, the recent trend of bringing back ex-Devils haven't been working for us at all.

Personally to me Raffi has gone backwards. These past 2 years were the worst I've seen him play as a Devil consistency wise. He had some excellent stretches but he had some god awful ones were he was mistake prone and give away happy. He did log alot of ice time at times but I really question if he averaged that much more than in the past when he was playing with Stevens, they were out there alot together and he was playing PP then too. And by the end he was not playing in every situation because he was killing them in it. He was not being matched against the top lines anymore nor was he playing penalty kill when matvichuk, white, martin and lukowich were all healthy. He was starting to become a liability in his zone, the coaching staff saw it and were keeping him away from alot of those situations he used to be capable of playing in. Now its like you have to hope he is in his hot streak otherwise you almost have to hide him defensively.

Oh well, this whole argument is going nowhere, and Souray is never coming here because we can't afford him. I just hope Raffi can find his game again because at this point I don't think he is worth 4m for such one dimensional play.

He's not nearly as one-dimensional as you make him out to be. Not as good as in the past, but to say he is a liability is ridiculous. Yes he is more turnover prone now than before, but he's also getting a little older. That **** happens.

And he's still our best defenseman by a mile, so yes he is definitely worth 4 mill compared to what lesser defenseman are getting.

To say that the defenseman leading the defense-oriented Devils in ice time is somehow weak defensively, logically, makes no sense whatsoever. Rafalski is absolutely the best defenseman on the team. I have seen no drop whatsoever in his play. He's the same defenseman, with the same strengths and flaws, as he was when he was playing with Stevens.

He's not nearly as one-dimensional as you make him out to be. Not as good as in the past, but to say he is a liability is ridiculous. Yes he is more turnover prone now than before, but he's also getting a little older. That **** happens.

And he's still our best defenseman by a mile, so yes he is definitely worth 4 mill compared to what lesser defenseman are getting.

And he's not nearly as two dimensional as you make him out to be. And I wouldn't say he is our best defenseman by a mile, Martin is catching up fast. Matter of fact down the stretch and in the post season he was better than Rafalski. I am being hard on Raffi because I expected better of him and he has not delivered.

Edit: I will add that while I can't find the postseason stats, Rafalski averaged 16 seconds more ice time per game than Martin in the regular season so let's stop pretending that he is playing so much more than any other Devils dman, just not the case anymore.

To say that the defenseman leading the defense-oriented Devils in ice time is somehow weak defensively, logically, makes no sense whatsoever. Rafalski is absolutely the best defenseman on the team. I have seen no drop whatsoever in his play. He's the same defenseman, with the same strengths and flaws, as he was when he was playing with Stevens.

:amazed:
Didn't watch much of the post season did ya? There is a reason why the Tampa series turned around when Rafalski stopped playing against the top line but ok.

shelly souray as a free agent is feeling eerily similar to adrian aucoin as a free agent a few years ago... that's all i'm gonna say ;)

:amazed:
Didn't watch much of the post season did ya? There is a reason why the Tampa series turned around when Rafalski stopped playing against the top line but ok.

The series turned around because we got lucky that Gomez scored. And that they
actually started playing back against the Lightning instead of playing their passive **** d system. It had nothing to do with what Rafalski did or didn't do. Fact of the matter, if Gomez doesn't score, they're done in 5.

The series turned around because we got lucky that Gomez scored. And that they
actually started playing back against the Lightning instead of playing their passive **** d system. It had nothing to do with what Rafalski did or didn't do. Fact of the matter, if Gomez doesn't score, they're done in 5.

You really think it was that simple? The fact that Lukowich and Matvichuk from game 4 on were matched up against Lecavalier and St Louis and started hitting them more and helping wear them down and they had less success from then on had nothing to do with it? Look I realize I am being overly critical of Rafalski to make a point here but changing the defensive pairings had just as much to do with it as Gomer's goal and Marty playing better did.

And he's not nearly as two dimensional as you make him out to be. And I wouldn't say he is our best defenseman by a mile, Martin is catching up fast. Matter of fact down the stretch and in the post season he was better than Rafalski. I am being hard on Raffi because I expected better of him and he has not delivered.

Edit: I will add that while I can't find the postseason stats, Rafalski averaged 16 seconds more ice time per game than Martin in the regular season so let's stop pretending that he is playing so much more than any other Devils dman, just not the case anymore.

I don't believe I EVER made him out to be any particular two-dimensional talent. Just not a liability like you apparently think he is. Souray could NEVER recover as quickly from mistakes as Rafalski does.

I don't believe I EVER made him out to be any particular two-dimensional talent. Just not a liability like you apparently think he is. Souray could NEVER recover as quickly from mistakes as Rafalski does.

Well you said he is not nearly as one dimensional as I make him out to be and that he was by far our best defenseman, not sure how else to take it but that's fine now we are just arguing semantics.

And the second statement is just ridiculous hypothetical BS, if the mistake involves catching up your right, if the mistake involves out muscling you're wrong. Just a silly argument to even get into.

You really think it was that simple? The fact that Lukowich and Matvichuk from game 4 on were matched up against Lecavalier and St Louis and started hitting them more and helping wear them down and they had less success from then on had nothing to do with it? Look I realize I am being overly critical of Rafalski to make a point here but changing the defensive pairings had just as much to do with it as Gomer's goal and Marty playing better did.

Yes, I think it was that simple. Matvichuk helped enormously and Brodeur had a great Game 5 (and a very good 3rd in Game 6, when once again, they stopped playing to protect a lead), but I think they're toast if not for that goal. Big boost
because they were getting it handed to them.

And as for 4 and 26, I don't know if it's the pounding as much as it is them being run
into the ground. I still think the key differences were Gomez's goal and them at least *attempting* to counter and not roll up in a ball for most of the last two games of the series. To be fair to Rafalski, you know physical play isn't his strong
suit. If you're going to be penned up playing half-court hockey, he's not going to thrive.

My opinion on Rafalski is that it's probably in both his, and the Devils' best interest
to part ways, so don't take it as huge support for Brian. Given a choice between
him at $4 million and Souray at god-knows-what, though... I'd take Rafalski. Souray makes me very, very nervous. Statistically, being the worst defensive defenseman on that team, while not being able to create much offense 5 on 5 (although with the Habs, he wasn't alone with this)... doesn't bode well for the Devils. I think a big problem all-around with the Devils, as that for whatever reason, when Julien came in, they stopped controlling the game 5 on 5... not even to an even-up sense, but they were really dominated at times in 5 on 5 hockey. That is not Devils hockey and I don't know that Souray will make that better.

Yes, I think it was that simple. Matvichuk helped enormously and Brodeur had a great Game 5 (and a very good 3rd in Game 6, when once again, they stopped playing to protect a lead), but I think they're toast if not for that goal. Big boost
because they were getting it handed to them.

And as for 4 and 26, I don't know if it's the pounding as much as it is them being run
into the ground. I still think the key differences were Gomez's goal and them at least *attempting* to counter and not roll up in a ball for most of the last two games of the series. To be fair to Rafalski, you know physical play isn't his strong
suit. If you're going to be penned up playing half-court hockey, he's not going to thrive.

My opinion on Rafalski is that it's probably in both his, and the Devils' best interest
to part ways, so don't take it as huge support for Brian. Given a choice between
him at $4 million and Souray at god-knows-what, though... I'd take Rafalski. Souray makes me very, very nervous. Statistically, being the worst defensive defenseman on that team, while not being able to create much offense 5 on 5 (although with the Habs, he wasn't alone with this)... doesn't bode well for the Devils. I think a big problem all-around with the Devils, as that for whatever reason, when Julien came in, they stopped controlling the game 5 on 5... not even to an even-up sense, but they were really dominated at times in 5 on 5 hockey. That is not Devils hockey and I don't know that Souray will make that better.

I disagree about the impact on the Tampa series, if Matvichuk and Lukowich don't start hitting those guys and wearing them down, I don't think they tire, they played those minutes all year long. Marty said in an interview after the series when asked about matvichuk how he chewed out the team in the locker room about the lack of hitting and then the next game opened up his first shift with hits on Vinny and St Louis. That started the turn around and set up the Gomez OT situation.

Otherwise I agree with everything else you said. Our style was terrible and in all honesty probably hurt Rafalski - and I can totally get behind a Rafalski is the better choice because he will cost half the price of Souray, what I don't get behind is that he is light years ahead of Souray, that's all. Although in all honesty I do think he is better than him, just not that much.

Well you said he is not nearly as one dimensional as I make him out to be and that he was by far our best defenseman, not sure how else to take it but that's fine now we are just arguing semantics.

And the second statement is just ridiculous hypothetical BS, if the mistake involves catching up your right, if the mistake involves out muscling you're wrong. Just a silly argument to even get into.

Okay, fair enough. You want more defensive muscle. Question then....who replaces Rafalski's one-dimensional offensive punch??? Souray??? NOT!!!! He is Colin White with a huge slapper, that he won't be able to get off nearly as much in the NJ system.

Okay, fair enough. You want more defensive muscle. Question then....who replaces Rafalski's one-dimensional offensive punch??? Souray??? NOT!!!! He is Colin White with a huge slapper, that he won't be able to get off nearly as much in the NJ system.

Hell dude in our system, other than the Power play, what defenseman is getting off that many scoring chances? And Greene and Martin play similar enough style to Raffi, the question is do we need three who play that way or does having a shot like Souray's, at a reasonable price, better to have in the mix. I don't think the answer to that is that cut and dry. If we had 5 White's I'd lean more your way but we don't so I think Souray could bring a different dimension that we need and I personally don't think we lose that much defensively with him over Raffi.

Let's face it. Rafalski has been thrust into the #1 d-man slot, a position he never should have been put in. He is a 3-4 d-man at best. Not his fault.

A few years ago when we had Stevens, Neids, Dano etc. He was a 5-6 guy, a role the he was much more suited for.

Come playoff time opposing teams target him for punishment (I would too). Again, it is not his fault that he was thrust into a role he is not qualified for.

However, at 4M he is still a better deal than Souray at 6M+. Either way we still need a shut down defenseman if we want to get past the second round of the playoffs. Neither Rafalski or Souray fit that bill.

Let's face it. Rafalski has been thrust into the #1 d-man slot, a position he never should have been put in. He is a 3-4 d-man at best. Not his fault.

A few years ago when we had Stevens, Neids, Dano etc. He was a 5-6 guy, a role the he was much more suited for.

Come playoff time opposing teams target him for punishment (I would too). Again, it is not his fault that he was thrust into a role he is not qualified for.

However, at 4M he is still a better deal than Souray at 6M+. Either way we still need a shut down defenseman if we want to get past the second round of the playoffs. Neither Rafalski or Souray fit that bill.

That's a freakin' joke. Raffy is a #1 on probably 25% of the teams in the league and a DEFINITE #2 on ANY team in the league, with the exception of the very few elite d-Corps like Anaheim.

I don't know, I kinda cringed everytime TB and Ottawa dumped it in his corner, chased him down, pounded him into the boards and took the puck away from him.

Too small and nowhere near physical enough to be a number 1 or 2. Regular season I'll give him a pass, playoff time, no way. And as Devils fans can see the regular season is becoming more and more meaningless

I don't know, I kinda cringed everytime TB and Ottawa dumped it in his corner, chased him down, pounded him into the boards and took the puck away from him.

Too small and nowhere near physical enough to be a number 1 or 2. Regular season I'll give him a pass, playoff time, no way. And as Devils fans can see the regular season is becoming more and more meaningless

So who that we currently have should replace his minutes? I'm all ears...

Are you saying that our team has NO legit #2 or even #3 D-Men?

I'm saying that Rafalski is better suited to be a 3 or 4 defenseman as opposed to a 1 or 2. Or paired with a Stevens type (like he used to) then he fits nicely on the top pairing, I'm very comfortable with him in that role.

I'd say right now we do lack a legimate number one defenseman. The Devs have an above average collection of 6 d-men but no shut down guys. Granted there aren't a lot of them out there.

All one has to do is to look at the Devils past success (defensively speaking) or Anaheim's current success to realize what you need to win the SC. Right now we don't have that, not even close.

Let's face it. Rafalski has been thrust into the #1 d-man slot, a position he never should have been put in. He is a 3-4 d-man at best. Not his fault.

Come playoff time opposing teams target him for punishment (I would too). Again, it is not his fault that he was thrust into a role he is not qualified for.

However, at 4M he is still a better deal than Souray at 6M+. Either way we still need a shut down defenseman if we want to get past the second round of the playoffs. Neither Rafalski or Souray fit that bill.

What the **** are you taking about :rant: ... #3/#4 d-man at best !!!! Then what do you call White, Matvichuk and the rest of our d... AHL'ers ???

There's a couple of small #1 d-man playing in the NHL that have the same kind of skills that Raffi has (Boyle and Campbell for example) and they wouldn't trade them for a guy like... Souray for instense.

It's just normal that Raffi is having a little more difficulties then before. Why ??? Can it be that he isn't matched with Stevens or Niedermayer or Daneyko... and that he has to deal with guys like White, Matvichuk, Oduya that aren't exactly HOF'er caliber like the 3 guys I've mentionned above and has to cover they're ***** if they **** up ???

Maybe ??? but what do I know :sarcasm:

I would call Raffy, White, Matty all probably solid 3-4 d-men. They just bring a different set of skills to the ice. In fact I would call our whole collection of d-men probably in that caliber.

And your making my point. Stevens, Nieds and Dano were #1 defenseman.

Care to put any of our current crop of defenseman in their league? I think not. Therefore they are 2 (at best--and I doubt that) and more likely #3 and # 4 guys.

I would call Raffy, White, Matty all probably solid 3-4 d-men. They just bring a different set of skills to the ice. In fact I would call our whole collection of d-men probably in that caliber.

And your making my point. Stevens, Nieds and Dano were #1 defenseman.

Care to put any of our current crop of defenseman in their league? I think not. Therefore they are 2 (at best--and I doubt that) and more likely #3 and # 4 guys.
I'm sorry but I'm tired of this crap. Rafalski is a top #2 defenseman and NEVER IN HIS CAREER was Dano a #1 defenseman....NEVER.

I would agree. Dano was more likely a 2 to 3 guy. But when you had Stevens heading up the 1st pair, Neids the second and Dano the 3rd you could plug guys like Rafalski on any of those pairs and he is going to look good. Raffy doesn't do that with whomever he is paired with on the #1 pairing. Thus he is better suite for the #2 pairing.

Look I like Raffy, just not as our #1 guy.

And, I would still take him over Souray provided he signs at 4M vs. Souray's 6M+

I would agree. Dano was more likely a 2 to 3 guy. But when you had Stevens heading up the 1st pair, Neids the second and Dano the 3rd you could plug guys like Rafalski on any of those pairs and he is going to look good. Raffy doesn't do that with whomever he is paired with on the #1 pairing. Thus he is better suite for the #2 pairing.
Dano was only on the third pairing in the last couple years of his career, he was usually paired with Nieds.

Look I like Raffy, just not as our #1 guy.
That's fine, but there aren't many other options out there. Lou doesn't like him as our #1 guy either, which is why he offered Chara 7M+ last year.

And, I would still take him over Souray provided he signs at 4M vs. Souray's 6M+
Which is what has been lost in the whole 'Rafalski-bashing' turn this thread has taken. Souray has an excellent slapper and is a good PP quarterback, but to say he's a better option than Rafalski with what he's going to sign for is ridiculous. (I agree with you, this was more a general comment on the thread.)

I never once ever said that I would rather have Souray at 6 than Raffi at 4. I made it a point to say the opposite several times. Stop being so dramatic.

Rafalski saved Lou's butt by sitting around waiting for the Neids situation to resolve itself and has always been extremely loyal to the team. The Devils plucked him out of the SEL and onto two Stanley cup winners, and that has meant a lot to Raffy. And Lou usually takes care of his veteran guys, versus chasing overpriced UFAs (like Souray.)

His skills have wained over the last couple seasons, for sure, and he definitely ran out of gas during this year's playoffs, but compared to what is out there and what teams are paying for legit puck moving D men, which Raffy still is, it is very likely Brian is looking for years, not top dollars, so he can retire a career NJ Devil. I wouldn't be surpised if he got 4-5 year deal from Lou, at around $4 mil per, versus the closer to $5 mil he would get from another team lacking an offensive D man, so he can hang 'em up at close to 40, having always worn the Red and Black.

I argued over the summer, in the Rafalski vs. Gomez "who do we sign" threads, that we needed Gomer more... And still think that. But I get the sense one of them wants to retire here, and will give the "hometown" discount to do it, and the other does not and will not.

I have my issues with Rafalski, and judging by all the Raffy hate on this thread, so do other Devils fans. And I do agree he has never been a true #1, he just stepped up to fill that void because he was in the best position to do it, after we lost TWO #1s back-to-back. That isn't his fault, by any stretch, but rather a sign of his character as a player and a team leader.

And if said long term contract does happen, I certainly predict his skills will continue to wain, as did Daneyko's, but there will be other better, younger players also willing to step up -- such as Greene and Corrente. (And we'll keep yapping as fans about that contract, just as we have after Whitey signed his -- although I think that one will prove to be cheap by comparison as the cap continues to rise past pre-lockout numbers...)

And what hasn't been mentioned much, if at all, in this thread was how good Martin played during the second half of the season and especially in the playoffs. He personally went to Lou asking to do more on offense, to be given more of a "green light" to take chances during the playoffs, and he still was rock solid in his own end. Truth be told, Paul Martin will probably be closer to our #1 next season, and quite possibly a few thereafter.

We have to re-sign Rafalski or see if we can make a deal for Dan Boyle. Any deal for Boyle would start with Paul Martin and Matt Corrente.

If we can afford Sheldon, I would love to see him on our blueline paired with either Martin or Lukowich.

But first we have to take care of our own. After that, we can see who we can or can't afford.

I want Drury and Souray, if possible. If not, we make do. Like finding guys like Viuhkola and hoping that they can play in the NHL.

Boyle is a great dman but I don't think they'd trade him now with the cap going up.

I liked Souray when he was here, but I don't like his price tag now...

but...

I do wish we had this on our blueline.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRPItRO0SEs

JUST SAY NO TO SOURAY


jesus cmon people...

The scary thing about Paul Martin is he is just 25, i keep forgetting how young he is. I always think he is around 30 for some reason.

Most Defensemen don't hit their prime until 27/28 i think anyways.

The scary thing about Paul Martin is he is just 25, i keep forgetting how young he is. I always think he is around 30 for some reason.

Most Defensemen don't hit their prime until 27/28 i think anyways.

He's 26, but I know what you mean... he is still young.

No to Souray, for me as well. Way too expensive for a guy that is just not that good defensively. (I'm being kind.)

Say yes to Scott Hannan!

The scary thing about Paul Martin is he is just 25, i keep forgetting how young he is. I always think he is around 30 for some reason.

Most Defensemen don't hit their prime until 27/28 i think anyways.

Martin is nowhere near the peak of his career. After a weirdly strange start last season, where he seemed afraid to take any offensive chances (perhaps an element of the Julien system, perhaps not), he kept ratcheting his game up during the course of the season. By the end of the regular season he was logging the most minutes on the team and playing against all the top guys. And played nearly flawless positional hockey. He was a rock in the playoffs, unlike Rafalski who played awful, and may very likely pick up next season where he left off, as our real #1.

Perhaps Paul Martin was a little over hyped, but he stepped into the NHL right away, like he was meant to be there (versus all the problems his fellow draftee David Hale had) and has shown no signs of slowing down. Because his offensive numbers were so down he got killed on these boards, but I just don't get why we, the fans, underrate and underappreciate him so much, and inlcude him in every trade proposal. We don't see what we have. He is going to be rock solid for many, many years.

Paul Martin >>> Sheldon Souray

If Marty can persuade Souray to take a 4mill or less contract then yea, he would be great on our PP and if we make him more discipline he would be a great addition

I have heard that the Devils could be major players for Sheldon Souray but right now I doubt they will get him. He really isn't their kind of player, if the Devils do get a free agent defenseman this season I would say they'll get Scott Hannan.

Umm... No thanks Souray will be awfuly expensive for us to sign and he isn't very skilled in his own end if you know what I mean. To be honest I would rather spend money on young talent and players with a lot of potential, than spend it on a player who is bad in his own end.

If Raffy resigns, I highly doubt we're going to be upgrading anymore at defense.

To play Devil's advocate (no, I don't mean the team), I can see why, price-tag aside, Souray would seem like a good fit for the team. A lot of Habs fans credit Markov with running the powerplay and say that Souray scores most of his goals off Markov one-timers. If Rafalski comes back, he is just as good at quarterbacking a powerplay as Markov.

Also, Souray's Marty connection means that he might be particularly responsive to Marty complaining about a lapse... could make him more responsible.

If there is any team that can help undisciplined players tone down the penalties, it is the Devils.

If, by some miracle, Souray would be willing to come to the team for 4 million per to play in front of Marty, I think they have to sign him. For that amount of money, I think you could play him on every powerplay, maybe even for the whole powerplay, and then give him 3rd pairing minutes at even strength.

In reality, some team will offer him more than 6 million and he'll take it, and I'll laugh at the stupidity of said team.