Turncoats in International Hockey

With the World Hockey Championship going on, how many examples can you think of where players played for another nation other than their own? For whatever reason?

And on this topic, since Canada constantly produces thousands of hockey players on either a pro/semi-pro level and only a lucky few get to actually play for Team Canada, how about some of them play for my nation, Switzerland? :D

Right now, If they can stay here long enough and marry a Swiss, they can play for our team (see Paul DiPietro). Let's see, there are several canadians playing over here right now and some of them include, Alexandre Daigle, he could play for us.

With the World Hockey Championship going on, how many examples can you think of where players played for another nation other than their own? For whatever reason?

And on this topic, since Canada constantly produces thousands of hockey players on either a pro/semi-pro level and only a lucky few get to actually play for Team Canada, how about some of them play for my nation, Switzerland? :D

Right now, If they can stay here long enough and marry a Swiss, they can play for our team (see Paul DiPietro). Let's see, there are several canadians playing over here right now and some of them include, Alexandre Daigle, he could play for us.

Corey Hirsch was Canada's goaltender in the 1994 Olympics, and is playing for Denmark in this tournament. I don't hold it against him though.

When the German team was not as established, a few Canadians who played in Germany for years were included on the roster.

Italy is made up of many Canadians at the Olympics, Jason Muzzati, Carter Trevisani, Adrian Signoretti come to mind.

Corey Hirsch was Canada's goaltender in the 1994 Olympics, and is playing for Denmark in this tournament. I don't hold it against him though......Huh?

No, different Hirsch. Denmark has Peter Hirsch.

Huh?

No, different Hirsch. Denmark has Peter Hirsch.

oh really, I thought someone said it was Corey Hirsch. Wouldn't have surprised me since he plays in Malmo Sweden I think so he could easily live in Copenhagen. My bad.

Tyler Arnason was born in the US but spent most of his life in Canada. He hadn't represented either nation in the past as far as I know but he finally decided to play for the US this year.

I suspect there are some Slovaks that would call Paul Stastny a "turncoat" though his ties to the US are certainly stronger.

I noticed John Tripp was playing for Germany this year. He's originally from Canada.

Nabokov played for Russia even though it's not his country. Khazakstan is trying to sustain its own hockey team internationally and Nabbie sure didn't help things.

Petr Nedved played for Canada and actually was quite effective.

Dainius Zubrus played for Russia in the World Cup, but he is from Lithuania.

Dainius Zubrus played for Russia in the World Cup, but he is from Lithuania.But he has played for Lithuania at the World Championships (lower divisions).

http://live82.ihwc.net/english/article/news/index.ihwc?artId=1913 - story from a couple of years ago

They've got colorful jerseys to say the least.

lith reminds me of the oakland seals.:D

"turncoats" seems a bit strong. in this bold era of global free trade, we should celebrate global movement of people too. so I suggest calling them either "citizenship-challenged" or maybe "neopatriots"

Dainius Zubrus played for Russia in the World Cup, but he is from Lithuania.

Probably needs to be said though that the World Cup didn't follow IIHF eligibility rules. You could technically play for any country in that tournament, if you have some loose affiliation.

I think Petr Nedved played for the Czechs at the 1996 World Cup, even though he played at the 1994 Olympics. Technically, he is ineligible to play for any country in IIHF competition other than Canada.

Probably needs to be said though that the World Cup didn't follow IIHF eligibility rules. You could technically play for any country in that tournament, if you have some loose affiliation.

I think Petr Nedved played for the Czechs at the 1996 World Cup, even though he played at the 1994 Olympics. Technically, he is ineligible to play for any country in IIHF competition other than Canada.And Peter Statsny played for Canada in the 1984 Canada Cup.

And Peter Statsny played for Canada in the 1984 Canada Cup.

And Bryan Trottier played for both USA and Canada... :biglaugh: The Ulimate Turncoat!!!

Nabokov played for Russia even though it's not his country. Khazakstan is trying to sustain its own hockey team internationally and Nabbie sure didn't help things.


Thats different because Nabakov is Russian not Kazak. His family just happened to be living their during the Soviet Union and when the USSR split he was one of many Russians left in Kazakstan.

Thats different because Nabakov is Russian not Kazak. His family just happened to be living their during the Soviet Union and when the USSR split he was one of many Russians left in Kazakstan.

Correct.

As for Zubrus, he only played for Russia in the World Cup, which is run by NHL and not IIHF.

Adam Deadmarsh and Brett Hull were both born in Canada but played for the US.

Thats different because Nabakov is Russian not Kazak. His family just happened to be living their during the Soviet Union and when the USSR split he was one of many Russians left in Kazakstan.

I'm definitely no expert when it comes to Eastern European geography, but Kamenogorski, Kazachstan sounds like it's in Kazakhstan and not Russia. His family may be Russian, but that would make him a Kazakh, no? Canadians ought to hope that's how it works or Chris Simon may become the new poster boy for Canadian hockey.

I suspect there are some Slovaks that would call Paul Stastny a "turncoat" though his ties to the US are certainly stronger.

Stastny was born in Quebec City. So Canadians might consider him a turncoat as well.

the swiss can have daigle!
all kidding aside, corey hirsch is the roving amateur goaltending coach for hockey canada i think - so he's not playing for denmark although he did get a medal as part of the U20 staff
:)

I'm definitely no expert when it comes to Eastern European geography, but Kamenogorski, Kazachstan sounds like it's in Kazakhstan and not Russia. His family may be Russian, but that would make him a Kazakh, no? Canadians ought to hope that's how it works or Chris Simon may become the new poster boy for Canadian hockey.

Well, not really. There is a number of factors, like most Russians living in the ex-republic feeling they belong to Russia and not the culture of the local ethnos, Northen Kazakhstan being considered an extension of Russia proper for centuries and thus culturally identical to Russia. And of course, Nabby has had the Russian citizenship for ages.

I'm definitely no expert when it comes to Eastern European geography, but Kamenogorski, Kazachstan sounds like it's in Kazakhstan and not Russia.

And ?

Well, usually being born in a country equates to being from that country, no? I was born in Canada, but my heritage is Ukrainian, but I consider myself more of a Canadian than a Ukrainian since I was born in Canada. It was posted that Nabokov is actually Russian, and since he was born in Kazakhstan I would assume he was Kazakh. I mean Joe Sakic's parents are from the former Republic of Yugoslavia, his parents just happened to be in Canada at the time. I don't expect to see him heading over to Belgrade for training camp anytime soon.

Well, usually being born in a country equates to being from that country, no? I was born in Canada, but my heritage is Ukrainian, but I consider myself more of a Canadian than a Ukrainian since I was born in Canada. It was posted that Nabokov is actually Russian, and since he was born in Kazakhstan I would assume he was Kazakh. I mean Joe Sakic's parents are from the former Republic of Yugoslavia, his parents just happened to be in Canada at the time. I don't expect to see him heading over to Belgrade for training camp anytime soon.

:shakehead What language do you speak? What language Nabby speaks? Did you see many Ukrainian movies, read many Ukrainian books as a kid? Did Nabby see many Kazakh movies, read Kazakh books? Who was your childhood sports idol? A Canadian hockey player or Oleg Blokhin? Who was the probable Nabby's hero? Tretyak, or Bekzat Sattarkhanov?

Under the USSR Russians outnumbered Kazakhs in Kazakhstan.

hey... no need jump at the guy.

He has a logical point from a Western perspective. While culturally someone who migrates to the US or Canada might maintain ties, the integration of all of the cultures and past backgrounds have converged to instill some type of loyalty to the central ideal. Simply, here, when you move to a country, most people who are born here and educated here eventually see themselves as at least partially "American" or "Canadian", whether or not they might be from Belize or Beijing before, or a generation before.


However, it is different for people in countries that change borders. Nabakov is probably Ethnically Russian and happened to be living in Kazakstan, not Ethnically Kazak, which would explain where his loyalties lie. For example, my relatives in Germany used to live in the former Yugoslavia back in the 1930s. They might have lived there, but they were ethnically German. So, they saw themselves as German, not Yugoslavian. A lot of it is merely perspective.

hey... no need jump at the guy.

He has a logical point from a Western perspective. While culturally someone who migrates to the US or Canada might maintain ties, the integration of all of the cultures and past backgrounds have converged to instill some type of loyalty to the central ideal.

It's all clear of course. The case of Kazakhstan goes much beyond the scenario of one ethnos on the terretory of another. Russians actually ounumbered Kazakhs there, and in the North Kazakhstan outnumbered them significantly. Russian is one of the two official languages there. There was no need to make any effort to "preserve" the culture as it was the dominant culture around. It's like if now all of Texas and Arizona became Mexico out of a sudden...

Well, usually being born in a country equates to being from that country, no? I was born in Canada, but my heritage is Ukrainian, but I consider myself more of a Canadian than a Ukrainian since I was born in Canada. It was posted that Nabokov is actually Russian, and since he was born in Kazakhstan I would assume he was Kazakh.
You are a bit misunderstand here, in my opinion . Kazakhs are etnic group. It doesn't equal to citizen of Kazakhstan. He could be citizen of Kazakhstan (If he decided to be earlier in his life, but I'm not sure) but he is etnic russian.

FYI, there are about 70% of russians and only 30% of kazakhs in this area (Ust'-Kamenogorsk and Semipalatinsk) but they all are citizens of Kazakshtan ...but russians could have russian citizenship too, IIRC ... and there is very interesting history of this area from XVIII century till our days..

What about Gretzky-Belarus Sakic-Croatia Iginla-Nigeria Lindros-Greece

Kariya-Japan

and there is very interesting history of this area from XVIII century till our days..

:naughty: You know that 5 or so years ago they arrested a bunch of Russians in North Kazakhstan who where preparing a coup d'etat with the goal of unification with Russia. :naughty: Can't even imagine how that could have been carried out ...

Well, usually being born in a country equates to being from that country, no?

Nabokov was not born in Kazakhstan, but in Soviet Union.

Nabokov was not born in Kazakhstan, but in Soviet Union.

I'm no world history buff, but I don't think that country is still around.

Adam Deadmarsh and Brett Hull were both born in Canada but played for the US.

But Deadmarsh's mother is American and he lived there for quite a while, growing up.

Didn't Avery play for Canada one year, and he's from Mars!

I'm definitely no expert when it comes to Eastern European geography, but Kamenogorski, Kazachstan sounds like it's in Kazakhstan and not Russia.

You are no expert in geography period. Kazakhstan is in Asia, not in Eastern Europe.

Well, usually being born in a country equates to being from that country, no? .

Only works that way in the west.

If your Ukrainian parents gave birth to you in China, does that make you Chinese? You are confused because in Canada/America there is no such ethnicity as Canadian or American. You are confusing ethnicity with citizenship.

I was born in Moldova, i am in no way Moldavian. I don't speak the language, my ancestors aren't Moldavian. Palestinians who were born in Israel aren't Israelis and Jews born in Germany aren't Germans, they are still jews. In the soviet union where there are literally hundreds of ethnicities, residency doesn't weigh on your ethnicity. Chechens aren't Russians. Russians in the baltics aren't Estonian or Lithuanians etc.

Only works that way in the west.

If your Ukrainian parents gave birth to you in China, does that make you Chinese? You are confused because in Canada/America there is no such ethnicity as Canadian or American. You are confusing ethnicity with citizenship.

I was born in Moldova, i am in no way Moldavian. I don't speak the language, my ancestors aren't Moldavian. Palestinians who were born in Israel aren't Israelis and Jews born in Germany aren't Germans, they are still jews. In the soviet union where there are literally hundreds of ethnicities, residency doesn't weigh on your ethnicity. Chechens aren't Russians. Russians in the baltics aren't Estonian or Lithuanians etc.Now you are mixing up a religious group with ethnicity.

Now you are mixing up a religious group with ethnicity.
Jew is both an ethnicity and a religion.

Jews born in Germany aren't Germans, they are still jews.Wow my relatives that fought for the Kaiser was even more the waste.

Well, usually being born in a country equates to being from that country, no?

Yes and no.
Different countries have different rules.

Nationality most often derives from place of birth (i.e. jus soli) and, in some cases, ethnicity (i.e. jus sanguinis). Citizenship derives from a legal relationship with a state. Citizenship can be lost, as in denaturalization, and gained, as in naturalization.
From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship)

And it's get even more complicated when you have national states form, reform and deform under your feet.

Now you are mixing up a religious group with ethnicity.

Jew is an ethnicity and a religion. Ashkenazi Jew is the ethnicity of Jews from Europe. I am half Jewish my self, trust me.

Wow my relatives that fought for the Kaiser was even more the waste.

What are you talking about?

Only works that way in the west.

If your Ukrainian parents gave birth to you in China, does that make you Chinese? You are confused because in Canada/America there is no such ethnicity as Canadian or American. You are confusing ethnicity with citizenship.

I was born in Moldova, i am in no way Moldavian. I don't speak the language, my ancestors aren't Moldavian. Palestinians who were born in Israel aren't Israelis and Jews born in Germany aren't Germans, they are still jews. In the soviet union where there are literally hundreds of ethnicities, residency doesn't weigh on your ethnicity. Chechens aren't Russians. Russians in the baltics aren't Estonian or Lithuanians etc.

Well this is a tournament pitting nations against each other, not ethnicities, which was my original point as to how Canada would have only Chris Simon and Jordin Tootoo if that were the case.

Adam Deadmarsh and Brett Hull were both born in Canada but played for the US.


Both of them were not only born in Canada, but grew up in Canada, and received all of their hockey training here. Hull's mother is an American, hence his ability to qualify for dual citizenship, and I believe Deadmarsh was in the same situation, i.e. one American parent, thus qualifying him for dual citizenship. Both were also ticked off at not getting invites to Team Canada camps early in their careers, hence the defection to the U.S. side.

Jews born in Germany aren't Germans, they are still jews.

Not entirely ;)
There are quite a few Jews who differentiate between the religion and ethnicity or at least don't see it as completely identical. Just because they have the right to call themselves a Jew, doesn't mean that they don't consider themselves to be German as well. Not to mention those who weren't born as a Jew, how few they may be.

Though yes, a Jew who was born in Germany doesn't have to consider himself a German.

What are you talking about?I'm Jewish, does that mean I'm not an American?

Both of them were not only born in Canada, but grew up in Canada, and received all of their hockey training here. Hull's mother is an American, hence his ability to qualify for dual citizenship, and I believe Deadmarsh was in the same situation, i.e. one American parent, thus qualifying him for dual citizenship. Both were also ticked off at not getting invites to Team Canada camps early in their careers, hence the defection to the U.S. side.

All of their hockey training? Not exactly. Deadmarsh played in Portland in the WHL and Hull went to Minnesota-Duluth in the NCAA. Besides, as you mention, both have an American parent, automatically qualifying them for citizenship. This is, and always has been a non issue.

All of their hockey training? Not exactly. Deadmarsh played in Portland in the WHL and Hull went to Minnesota-Duluth in the NCAA. Besides, as you mention, both have an American parent, automatically qualifying them for citizenship. This is, and always has been a non issue.

I semi-agree on the basis of the parent thing, but to claim because someone plays for an American team in the CANADIAN Hockey League makes them elgiible to playf or that country, well that's a reach.

Well this is a tournament pitting nations against each other, not ethnicities, which was my original point as to how Canada would have only Chris Simon and Jordin Tootoo if that were the case.

It's actually down to citizenship.
And as known some have dual citizenship, either from birth or later naturalisation.

But there's some special cases with various former 'constructed' states, like Soviet and to some degree Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia for instance.

Esp since much people was relocated, willingly or forced, to another part of the constructed state. When the state was dissolved and/or new nations where formed there was a lot of people stranded in a 'foreign' country.

I semi-agree on the basis of the parent thing, but to claim because someone plays for an American team in the CANADIAN Hockey League makes them elgiible to playf or that country, well that's a reach.


That's not what I said. The poster I responded to said Hull and Deadmarsh received all of their hockey training in Canada. That isn't true. In the end, both players are American by virtue of their mothers being from the U.S. That alone entitled them to make the choice they did about what country they would play for.

I'm no world history buff, but I don't think that country is still around.

:D Yes, but it was when he was born.

Imagine Canada split up into 3 countries now, called Yax, Cox and Dox. So, now you live in Cox, would you say you were born in Cox, or Canada? :help:

:D Yes, but it was when he was born.

Imagine Canada split up into 3 countries now, called Yax, Cox and Dox. So, now you live in Cox, would you say you were born in Cox, or Canada? :help:

Well since Canada wouldn't have a team, I'd go with Cox, even though I'd probably have to renounce citizenship in any country that shares a naemsake with Damien Cox.

I'm Jewish, does that mean I'm not an American?

Do you have a learning disability?

I explained that is doesn't work like that in the west because there is no such thing as an American ethnicity, just citizenship. Everyone who is a citizen in America is American. Your American passport says you are American. If you were born any where else, your Russian passport for example, would say Jew under nationality.

This is corroborated by science in terms that you can get a DNA test that will tell you that genetically you are polish or Ashkenazi jewish or Russian but no DNA test in the world can tell you that you are Canadian or American.

Do you have a learning disability?

I explained that is doesn't work like that in the west because there is no such thing as an American ethnicity, just citizenship. Everyone who is a citizen in America is American. Your American passport says you are American. If you were born any where else, your Russian passport for example, would say Jew under nationality.

This is corroborated by science in terms that you can get a DNA test that will tell you that genetically you are polish or Ashkenazi jewish or Russian but no DNA test in the world can tell you that you are Canadian or American.

America was a country before Germany was one, yet Jews who lived their prior to it being a nation state aren't German, while Jews that came late to the west are?

America was a country before Germany was one, yet Jews who lived their prior to it being a nation state aren't German, while Jews that came late to the west are?

The Germans have been around since 80 BC from recorded history alone. Germans as a people were talked about as far back as the ancient Greeks.

You don't even understand the simplest of concepts.

You are an idiot in the strictest sense.

The Germans have been around since 80 BC from recorded history alone. Germans as a people were talked about as far back as the ancient Greeks.

You don't even understand the simplest of concepts, if i was you i would keep my mouth shut.
Recent German national identity is in large part a contrivance and a hodge podge of said concepts.

Recent German national identity is in large part a contrivance and a hodge podge of said concepts.

Recent, past or present German identity has nothing to do with any thing except bloodline. Turks in Germany aren't Germans. They are Turks.

Dear Canada,
Can we have all the Canadians playing in our Swiss League? That inclues the great Alexandre Daigle, Simon Gamache and many more!

Regards,
.Ambassador of Switzerland

Robert Reichel's brother Martin plays internationally for Germany. In fact, Robert (with the Czech team) and Martin (with the German team) have faced each other a few times.

It's obvious that Europeans and North Americans would think differently about this subject. In North America nationality tends to be defined by birth and/or residence whereas in Europe ethnicity and cultural heritage is given much more importance particularly in Central and Eastern Europe. Most European nation states are based in concept and ideal on the idea of representing a specific ethnic group ergo identification with a country often means identification with an ethnic group as well. That has changed somewhat in the age of global work migration at least in official terms in some countries but it's still a view widely held nevertheless amongst people.

The Nabokov case is particularly interesting of course because Kazakhstan was once part of the Soviet Union which ultimately was more of a Greater Russia than a true Union of the different peoples. It was in the interest of the Kremlin to place as many Russians as possible in various non-Russian Soviet republics to further "russify" those areas. Additionally it was simply a matter of course for members of different ethnicities to be moved around the Soviet Union as the interests of the state determined and since Russians made up the great majority of the population of the USSR they were particularly spread around via Army posts, government authorities etc. The large Russian minorities in many former Soviet republics today are testament to that. The generally Russian character of the Soviet Union and its hostility to many of the non-Russian cultures meant that the Russians in other Soviet Republics would have no desire or need to adapt to the cultures of the native peoples in those areas and the fact that the locals looked upon them as the Russians as well and viewed them with some suspicion would mean that sticking together and looking to Moscow was however a necessity. This did not change magically when the Soviet Union collapsed obviously so it's hardly surprising that Nabokov as a Russian whose parents settled in a non-Russian Soviet area would identify as Russian and hold allegiance to the Russian cause.

The identity of Germany is generally traced back to the treaty of Verdun that split the Frankish realm into a Western, Central and Eastern part. The Western part pretty continuously developed into France and the Eastern part developed pretty continuously into Germany. This was around 900 AD if my memory does not betray me. This date is chosen because it was the earliest political definition of something of a French and a German identity which sources confirm already existed to some degree on a folk level at the time. The "Holy Roman Empire of the German nation" became the main political representation of German identity in the following 800 years or so, in spite of the fact that there were non-German areas under its control and many of its rulers did not necessarily identify as German (but such were the ways of monarchy in Europe at the time). That is why the Nazi realm was called the Third Reich with the 1871 creation being the Second Reich and the Holy Roman Empire being the First Reich. Now the Holy Roman Empire was never a very stable entity and indeed always subject to upheaval. But it is in fact partially this political confusion in the areas populated by Germans which led to a strong German nationalism based on shared blood and culture, not citizenship (and that goes back at least to the 17th century). People living in the Rhineland or Brandenburg could tell that they shared a language and heritage but not a political bond as of yet, so the idea of a German nation was formed out of the desire to unite all people who shared that language and heritage. This is not unique to Germany either of course. As a result however to this day many Germans tend to consider only those Germans who are native speakers of German and who appear to be of German ethnicity due to their looks and/or name for example as both are taken as indicators of heritage.

Back to hockey however, almost all of the second and third tier countries in Europe use Canadian-born players extensively. In some cases this is based on their heritage, I remember various Italian-Canadians playing for Italy and German-Canadians playing for Germany. In other cases however it's a mere case of a guy having played forever in their local league and being a relatively good player (but not good enough for Team Canada) which leads the respective coaches to use them for their national teams. That is of course nothing but opportunism but nobody cares because those teams tend to be desperate for talent and it's not like Canada suffers for it. This has little with ideas of nationality to do though as it's really just about the teams and their attempt to get a decent squad together.

By North American standards if an ethnic Swede from Åland played for Sweden they would be a "turn coat".

I'm no world history buff, but I don't think that country is still around.

so nationalities are grandfathered to modern day?

so you, a canadian. lets say Mexico annexed canada, and you were living in England

would that make you Mexican? would you feel Mexican?

You are no expert in geography period. Kazakhstan is in Asia, not in Eastern Europe.

:biglaugh: :handclap: EXCELLENT POST!

there is no such thing as an American ethnicity, just citizenship.


tell that to someone whos family has lived in the South for generations :shakehead or a New Yorker or Southie from Boston

everyones roots, everywhere, anywhere in the world...can technically be an "immigrant"

many may be immigrants, but there is a distinct ethnic development from state to state, and especially in certain regions

The Nabokov case is particularly interesting....

From here on, it tells me that you never lived in the USSR.

Most of this is not relevent to the case of the North Kazakhstan by any stretch since it was originally settled by Russians and not by the "titular" ethnos of Kazakhs.

From here on, it tells me that you never lived in the USSR.


I bet he watched "60 minutes" about something like this

I bet he watched "60 minutes" about something like this

My family was moved around the USSR in the interest of the State, so first we went to Siberia where the state interest resulted in my parents salary being trippled. Then we returned to my fathers hometown in Moldova to russify the area
in the interest of the Kremlin. And wasn't that some mighty suspicion that we were looked upon with by the locals whom we treated with particular hostility :D

By North American standards if an ethnic Swede from Åland played for Sweden they would be a "turn coat".

An ethnically swedish finnish citizen cannot play for sweden without first getting a new citizenship.

Diffrent ethnicity isn't the same as dual citizenship, and national teams are based on citizenship.

And for those that either have two or gain a new one there's lots of reasons for playing under their 'other' nationality.

Like moving to the new country as young, or not being good enough to be considered on their old team, or those with two simply feeling more at home in one of them.

Take Alexander Steen for instance.
Born in Canada and spending most of his childhood and youth there, most likely with frequent summers in sweden, then playing junior hockey in sweden before coming back to Canada.

He has stated that he feels just as Canadian as he feels Swedish, but since he played junior hockey in Sweden it felt natural to play on the Swedish junior team when invited.

An ethnically swedish finnish citizen cannot play for sweden without first getting a new citizenship.

Diffrent ethnicity isn't the same as dual citizenship, and national teams are based on citizenship.

And for those that either have two or gain a new one there's lots of reasons for playing under their 'other' nationality.



If Åland produced an elite athlete, Sweden would give him a passport faster than I can sing Helan Går!

Tommy Salo's parents are finnish. Good thing for Finland is they raised their son to be swedish.

There is no nation called America. I hate it when people say "Im from America". What's that? South-America?

Tommy Salo's parents are finnish. Good thing for Finland is they raised their son to be swedish.

Another one of those being able to chose.


There is no nation called America. I hate it when people say "Im from America".

Well "I'm from the United States of America" is quite a mouthful.

And calling them 'Ussians' sounds distinctivly silly.

Tommy Salo's parents are finnish. Good thing for Finland is they raised their son to be swedish.

There is no nation called America. I hate it when people say "Im from America". What's that? South-America?

Tomas Sandström and Arto Blomsten were both born on the west-coast of Finland, were a large part of the swedish speaking minority of Finland reside, but represented Sweden.

Well "I'm from the United States of America" is quite a mouthful.

And calling them 'Ussians' sounds distinctivly silly.

Well how about " I'm from USA", I think everybody knows what USA means. I know lot of people who calls them yankees (including my self). I'm not sure is that an offending word in english but in Finland saying "jenkki" its quite common.

If Åland produced an elite athlete, Sweden would give him a passport faster than I can sing Helan Går!

The question is rather would anyone from Åland actually apply for a swedish citizenship? I've always had the feeling that they're quite proud of being what they are.

As in Ålanders first and foremost and ethnicly swedish finnish citizens after that.

There is no nation called America. I hate it when people say "Im from America". What's that? South-America?

what do you want them to say, the country's name has AMERICA in it

they are from a State of America, so to say one is "of America" is equal to being "from America"

....and who the hell would interpret "I'm from America" as being from Brazil?? :biglaugh:

Now is the Nabokov case not further boggled by the fact he played for Kazakhstan in the world juniors, which would prevent him from playing for any other country under IIHF rules?

Now is the Nabokov case not further boggled by the fact he played for Kazakhstan in the world juniors, which would prevent him from playing for any other country under IIHF rules?

He would be able to play for Russia 4 years after the last gamefor Kazakhstan, given that a number of stuff has been fulfilled.

In according to IIHF Bylaw 204 section c:
c) When once a player has represented a country in any IIHF championship, or in the Olympic competition or in the qualification to these competitions he will not be eligible to represent another country excepting that he may apply to the IIHF to represent another country provided that (a) he is a citizen of that country, (b) he has an international transfer card that was approved and dated by the IIHF at least four years before the start of the IIHF competition in which he wishes to participate, (c) he has participated for at least four consecutive years in the national competitions of his new country during which period he has neither transferred to another country nor played ice hockey within any other country, and (d) he has not played for his previous country in an IIHF competition during this four year period. Such a change will be allowed only once in a player’s life and is final and irrevocable.

But requirement (c) looks a problem.
To me it reads like he'd have to play 4 years in RSL first.

But maybe there's some bending allowed if the case is good enough.

But requirement (c) looks a problem.
To me it reads like he'd have to play 4 years in RSL first.

Actually, he did play 4 years in the RSL, but then he doesn't meet requirement (d).

Actually, he did play 4 years in the RSL, but then he doesn't meet requirement (d).
That was what I meant.
Four years after his last game for Kazakhstan.

From here on, it tells me that you never lived in the USSR.

Of course, personal anecdotes always trump general historical knowledge as we all know. Because you know the problems between Russians and ethnic Balts for example are totally imaginary. It's also a total myth that Russian culture was favored over non-Russian cultures in the Soviet Union. Riiiiight.

The identity of Germany is generally traced back to the treaty of Verdun that split the Frankish realm into a Western, Central and Eastern part. The Western part pretty continuously developed into France and the Eastern part developed pretty continuously into Germany. This was around 900 AD if my memory does not betray me.

Isn't it "Les Serments de Strasbourg" (don't know what it actually is in english), 848 AD?

the problems between Russians and ethnic Balts for example are totally imaginary

No

a total myth

Yes, in your generalized version.

The question is rather would anyone from Åland actually apply for a swedish citizenship? I've always had the feeling that they're quite proud of being what they are.

As in Ålanders first and foremost and ethnicly swedish finnish citizens after that.

Yes, but if forced to choose between representing Finland or Sweden, I'm sure many would prefer the latter.

Brett Hull comes to mind.

I'm definitely no expert when it comes to Eastern European geography, but Kamenogorski, Kazachstan sounds like it's in Kazakhstan and not Russia. His family may be Russian, but that would make him a Kazakh, no? Canadians ought to hope that's how it works or Chris Simon may become the new poster boy for Canadian hockey.
In that case, why is Dany Heatley Canadian and not German?

Kariya-Japan
Keep in mind that Kariya is only half Japanese; his mother is of Scottish descent.

Yes, but if forced to choose between representing Finland or Sweden, I'm sure many would prefer the latter.

I don't think so.
I think the great majority would chose Finland.

But we're getting a tad off topic I think :)

Well, usually being born in a country equates to being from that country, no? I was born in Canada, but my heritage is Ukrainian, but I consider myself more of a Canadian than a Ukrainian since I was born in Canada. It was posted that Nabokov is actually Russian, and since he was born in Kazakhstan I would assume he was Kazakh. I mean Joe Sakic's parents are from the former Republic of Yugoslavia, his parents just happened to be in Canada at the time. I don't expect to see him heading over to Belgrade for training camp anytime soon.

I would welcome Heatley on the German national team. ;)

Keep in mind that Kariya is only half Japanese; his mother is of Scottish descent.

And that both his father and mother was born in Canada, and possibly even one more generation back.

You can't just look at peoples names or looks, nor can you just look at where they where born.

A persons nationality is much more complex than that.

And when a person is born outside of his/her 'home land' you also need to look at the circumstances.

Take the difference between Alexander Steen and Paul Stastny.
Both born in NA because their fathers wanted to play in NHL.

But while Alexander got an automatic swedish citizenship, went back every summer and chose to play junior hockey in Sweden.

The Stastny's lost their citizenship from day one, and Peter was labeled traitor to Czechoslovakian hockey (by the authorities that is) and couldn't visit Czechoslovakia ever more (unless they managed to make a trip between the fall of the communists and the velvet revolution).

It doesn't look that wierd to me that Alex is playing for Sweden, while Paul is playing for USA.

And neither is a turncoat.

Isn't it "Les Serments de Strasbourg" (don't know what it actually is in english), 848 AD?

It was the treaty of Verdun in 843AD.
But in the " Serments de Strasbourg" (Oaths of Strasbourg in English) it is already seen that the country was split in regions with different cultures and customs (that might be surprise to historians but hardly to linguists). so the serments were oficially one of teh first written papers that gave us proof of these proto countries.

Isn't it "Les Serments de Strasbourg" (don't know what it actually is in english), 848 AD?
No, the Frankish Empire was divided in the Treaty of Verdun in 843. Louis The German became king of East Francia, which soon was known as "regnun teutonicum" and would become The Holy Roman Empire (later THRE Of German Nation).

I don't think so.
I think the great majority would chose Finland.



Ålanders are more likely to speak English as a second language than Finnish. What makes a stronger bond, language and culture, or nationality?

Ålanders are more likely to speak English as a second language than Finnish. What makes a stronger bond, language and culture, or nationality?

Every ålander that I've met roots for finland when forced to chose.

With regards to finland they are an autonomus region, with regards to sweden they're some quirky part of the eastern stockholm archipelago.

The language and culture is shared just as much with the swedish speaking finns as the swedish speaking swedes.

100 years ago it would have been different, but not now.

Every ålander that I've met roots for finland when forced to chose.

With regards to finland they are an autonomus region, with regards to sweden they're some quirky part of the eastern stockholm archipelago.

The language and culture is shared just as much with the swedish speaking finns as the swedish speaking swedes.

100 years ago it would have been different, but not now.

Yeah, but lets face it, Swedish speakers on the Finish mainland for the most part will soon be a thing of the past.
Through tax breaks, etc. the people of åland benefit economically from their autonomous status in Finland. If they were to reunite with Sweden they would have no reason to be autonomous anymore, and would probably be hurt economically to some degree. But make no mistake they are much more Swedish than Finish.

Yeah, but lets face it, Swedish speakers on the Finish mainland for the most part will soon be a thing of the past.
Through tax breaks, etc. the people of åland benefit economically from their autonomous status in Finland. If they were to reunite with Sweden they would have no reason to be autonomous anymore, and would probably be hurt economically to some degree. But make no mistake they are much more Swedish than Finish.

Possible, but I don't think so.
But it's the wrong place to argue about it.
So let's leave it with having different opinions.

i think Dave Ellett was the ultimate turncoat. In lower level turnaments like the world cup he would play with Canada, and in tournaments like the Canada Cup he would play with the US. Dave had duel citizenship so could play for either team.

i think Dave Ellett was the ultimate turncoat. In lower level turnaments like the world cup he would play with Canada, and in tournaments like the Canada Cup he would play with the US. Dave had duel citizenship so could play for either team.

Dual citizenship is irrellevant.
It's about having played for earlier.
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Ellett)
In 1989 Ellett was the subject of controversy when he decided to play for Team Canada in the World Championships. Bob Johnson, coach of the American team, complained that Ellett had to play for the United States because of his birthplace and because he attended Team USA's training camp for the 1987 Canada Cup. But in actuality, Ellett was allowed to play for Team Canada because he never actually played for the USA internationally.

And if I understand it correctly, Canada/World Cup is an "IIHF sanctioned tournament", and then the IIHF bylaw 204 stands.

But as stated, he didn't actually play for USA internationally.

Well how about " I'm from USA", I think everybody knows what USA means. I know lot of people who calls them yankees (including my self). I'm not sure is that an offending word in english but in Finland saying "jenkki" its quite common.

Southern people refer to people from the North as yankees at times, because of the Civil War. So, such people wouldn't enjoy being called yankees.

And Bryan Trottier played for both USA and Canada... :biglaugh: The Ulimate Turncoat!!!

... And Tony Esposito played USA in the '84 Canada Cup after playing for Canada in the '72 Summit Series. ...

Well how about " I'm from USA", I think everybody knows what USA means. I know lot of people who calls them yankees (including my self). I'm not sure is that an offending word in english but in Finland saying "jenkki" its quite common.

Everybody knows what "I'm from America" means too so I fail to see the point. Perhaps you need to stop being over-sensitive to commonly used naming conventions.

Everybody knows what "I'm from America" means too so I fail to see the point. Perhaps you need to stop being over-sensitive to commonly used naming conventions.

Nah, it's just that most europeans love to tease americans about that.

Like pointing out that 'american football' is played with the ball in your hands :)

Live with it, everyone loves to tease the big dog on the block, it won't ever stop. Just lick it up and accept.

I'd like to see some Canadians in the NLA join Team Switzerland!

Yes, but if forced to choose between representing Finland or Sweden, I'm sure many would prefer the latter.

I can't see them choosing Sweden at all unless they had a better chance of making the team (which would be unlikely since both countries are almost neck and neck). If their ancestors have been in Finland for that long, they'll feel Finnish.

I know the citizen issue is different in North America, but could you picture Martin Brodeur choosing France over Canada? Or Ed Belfour joining team England if given a passport?

I'm of french decent, but my ancestors have been here for almost 400 years and I obviously feel more Canadian than French. But...say I was a good hockey player, not good enough for the Canadian team, but good enough for the French one, and France offered me citizenship (if it was permitted) for me to play for them, I'd gladly accept since France feels like me second home even though I haven't been there longer than a month.

did anyone mention Brett Hull Right Wing
Born Aug 9 1964 -- Belleville, ONT
Height 5.10 -- Weight 200

played for U.S. Hockey .:surrender

I can't see them choosing Sweden at all unless they had a better chance of making the team (which would be unlikely since both countries are almost neck and neck). If their ancestors have been in Finland for that long, they'll feel Finnish.

I know the citizen issue is different in North America, but could you picture Martin Brodeur choosing France over Canada? Or Ed Belfour joining team England if given a passport?

I'm of french decent, but my ancestors have been here for almost 400 years and I obviously feel more Canadian than French. But...say I was a good hockey player, not good enough for the Canadian team, but good enough for the French one, and France offered me citizenship (if it was permitted) for me to play for them, I'd gladly accept since France feels like me second home even though I haven't been there longer than a month.

It is impossible to compare Quebec-France to Åland-Sweden. Åland has been under Finnish rule for a relatively short amount of time, and it sits right in between Sweden and Finland. Because of the EU, and other Nordic agreements, Ålanders are entitled to live and work in Sweden, and they maintain close ties with Sweden.
A better analogy might be if a Quebecer who spoke only French was forced to choose between representing England or France.

Yes, but if forced to choose between representing Finland or Sweden, I'm sure many would prefer the latter.

I have to disagree. Many people from Åland speak swedish, study in Sweden, but they support Finnish national teams no matter if it is hockey or Eurovision singing contest.

It is impossible to compare Quebec-France to Åland-Sweden. Åland has been under Finnish rule for a relatively short amount of time, and it sits right in between Sweden and Finland. Because of the EU, and other Nordic agreements, Ålanders are entitled to live and work in Sweden, and they maintain close ties with Sweden.
A better analogy might be if a Quebecer who spoke only French was forced to choose between representing England or France.

A 100 years ago when the matter of Åland came to a head, when the Russian Grand Duchy of Finland was caught up in the fall of the Russian Empire, Ålanders petitioned wanted to go back to Swedish rule instead of being part of the new independant Finland.

But the Swedish goverment of that time wasn't very intrested and basicly decided to ignore them and let the new Finnish nation, in the middle of a civil war, sort it out themself.

This was a long time ago but every Ålander that I've met are still well aware of that part of their history.

And with the Nordic 'passport union', which predates EU with some 30 years or so, everyone could travel, study and work where they wanted within the Nordic countries anyway so it didn't really matter.

According to my experience they see themself as independant Ålanders under (some) Finnish jurisdiction and mainland swedes are best used as drunken slobs to sell tax free alcohol to :)

According to my experience they see themself as independant Ålanders under (some) Finnish jurisdiction and mainland swedes are best used as drunken slobs to sell tax free alcohol to :)

Ah yes, the power cruise from Stockholm!! :yo:

I have to disagree. Many people from Åland speak swedish, study in Sweden, but they support Finnish national teams no matter if it is hockey or Eurovision singing contest.

I have been to Åland, it is a beautiful place, life is good there, and I don't think anyone is lining up to leave.

It is no secret that within a generation or two the Swede's in Finland will be completely assimilated with the Finns. That means Ålanders will have less and less in common with people in Finland. The population of Åland is less than 30,000, so an elite athlete would have to leave to find suitable competition. Ålanders are entitled to live in Sweden or Finland, and many would go to Sweden for obvious reasons. Once they are living in Sweden, I think it is logical that an Ålander would probably play for Sweden.

To restate my original point, if an Ålander did decide to play for Sweden, I don't think anyone could rightly call them a "Turncoat".

Eurovision has gone down hill after ABBA left the scene!

Ålanders are entitled to live in Sweden or Finland, and many would go to Sweden for obvious reasons. Once they are living in Sweden, I think it is logical that an Ålander would probably play for Sweden.


Yes and no, lets take my 3 cousins as an example. They are born in Sweden, by Finnish-Estonian parents which latter have adopted Swedish nationality, and all of them hold Swedish passport. Eldest boys think themselves as Finns and youngest thinks himself as a Swede. So you can imagine the noise during Turin hockeyfinal in that family.

I am entitled to live in Sweden or Finland as well (not to mention many other countries) and 300000 Finns do live in Sweden. Typically the first generation Finns are "100% Finns till they die", but generation after generation the connection to the origin weakens. The Finnjävels are well integrated into Swedish society but officials transfered the annual track&field duell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnkampen) to Gothenburg, because there were more Finnish supporters than in the Stockholm area (there are lots of Finnish immigrants in the Gothenburg area).

In USA the situation is different. Many immigrants consider themselves americans as soon as the ink dries in green card. They put "God bless America"-bumper stickers and wear "Stars 'n Stripes"-shirts. (don't get flamed by my intentional sarcasm and generalizations)


To restate my original point, if an Ålander did decide to play for Sweden, I don't think anyone could rightly call them a "Turncoat".


They would be turncoats. As an example a runner Janne Holmen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janne_Holmen) who is from Åland, speaks Finnish only a little, lives in Sweden, runs under Finnish flag. Mariehamn IFK plays hockey in the Finnish league (3rd division) etc.

Eurovision has gone down hill after ABBA left the scene!

But after Lordi rocked da house, it has been much more interesting :D

This is such an interesting topic, it's one of those things that doesn't really have an answer. I think maybe when it comes down to it who you are is your own choice. For example, I'm from Canada. My family tree can be traced back to Scotland, Ireland, England and Norway, but I am Canadian. I would never consider myself to be anything else, even if I did spend a significant amount of time in another country or married someone from another country. I think maybe the difference is that in the west nationality became more important because when the countries were being forged so many of the people were from different parts of the world. All these different cultures and religions came together to form larger countries. While people still retained their heritage and traditions they became of a different nationality.

Europe and Asia have a much different and older history. There is a lot more bad blood and more emphasis on factors like religion. It doesn't seem to really be as cut and dry as to "who you are" and where a person's loyalty lies. Not that it is completly cut and dry in the west, but when all is said and done most will say they are either Canadian or American etc. not Jewish or Muslim or from a different country, even if that is where their ancestors are from or what religion they are. I'm not positive but from what I have read that is not the case in other parts of the world.

That being said it could get interesting if suddenly Canada did decide to split up and there was hypothetically B.C., Alberta, Saskatchewan - Manitoba, Ontario, Maritimes, and Atlantic provinces - Quebec - Territories. Would I then consider myself to no longer be Canadian but a resident of the United Provinces of British Alberchewan? Who knows, but I am thinking I would make that choice. That would be weird though.

I have to disagree. Many people from Åland speak swedish, study in Sweden, but they support Finnish national teams no matter if it is hockey or Eurovision singing contest.

That's pretty much how it is. I'm from Åland, my Finnish is lousy, I'm going to study in Sweden, but I still support the Finnish national teams/athletes/etc. no matter what and most of us do the same. For example, I went to a bar when Finland and Sweden played for the Olympic gold, and I'd say at least 90% supported Finland. But of course some people here root for Sweden. Those people usually see Finland as something evil that wants to "förfinska" Åland, and take away our "precious" Swedish. It wouldn't surprise me if they voted for the party that wants to make Åland an independent nation as well.

Anyway, if a,for example, hockey-player from Åland were to play for Sweden, I would definitely see that person as a turncoat.

That's pretty much how it is. I'm from Åland, my Finnish is lousy, I'm going to study in Sweden, but I still support the Finnish national teams/athletes/etc. no matter what and most of us do the same.

Anyway, if a,for example, hockey-player from Åland were to play for Sweden, I would definitely see that person as a turncoat.

My children are dual Canadian / Swedish citizens, and have been since birth. I guess if they ever had to make a choice as to which country to represent, they'd be a turncoat in someones eyes.

Would some Finns call you a turncoat for leaving Finland to study in Sweden?

My children are dual Canadian / Swedish citizens, and have been since birth. I guess if they ever had to make a choice as to which country to represent, they'd be a turncoat in someones eyes.

Would some Finns call you a turncoat for leaving Finland to study in Sweden?

None I've met have had that opinion at least. They pretty much understand that studying in Sweden is easier for us, since most of us have kinda poor skills in Finnish. And I think most of us always intend on coming back after we've finished school.

Awright, The Swiss may get the Quebecers playing in the NLA. That means Daigle and Gamache, the French-Canadians if you will, Mr. Ambassador.

In exchange, Quebec gets Mark Streit's babies.

All of them except the girls if they have his nose.

Deal?