A Friendly Wager

First, a disclaimer: no, I'm not offering to bet any money on the outcome of my prediction. I don't want to run afoul of any HF Board rules. Second, I'm just a fan. I don't have any "inside" connections. This is just my "gut feeling" on what's going to happen.

I think that by the conclusion of the First Round of the Entry Draft next Saturday (the 24th) both of the following events will have have come to pass:

1. The Ducks will have signed UFA Ilya Bryzgalov. (This is, as attorneys like to say, "a condition precedent" to item number 2. In other words, if this doesn't happen prior to the draft, number 2 becomes unlikely.)

2. Giguere is dealt. The rumor mill sites (Spector's Trade Rumours, which cites another rumor site) seems to think that Detroit, Toronto & Tampa Bay are the most-likely destinations. If I had to pick one of the three, I'd say it's Tampa Bay.

For the record, I'll consider that I've called this one correctly if Bryz signs and Jiggy is dealt. I'll give myself bonus points if he ends up with the bolts.


Okay, guys, fire away. Remember, I'm not saying that this is the most prudent course of action Burke could take. I know all the arguments in favor of keeping both guys. I'm just predicting what I think will happen. The good thing is that within 8 days from today we'll know whether I'm right or wrong.

What would the Ducks get for Giguere?

First, a disclaimer: no, I'm not offering to bet any money on the outcome of my prediction. I don't want to run afoul of any HF Board rules. Second, I'm just a fan. I don't have any "inside" connections. This is just my "gut feeling" on what's going to happen.

I think that by the conclusion of the First Round of the Entry Draft next Saturday (the 24th) both of the following events will have have come to pass:

1. The Ducks will have signed UFA Ilya Bryzgalov. (This is, as attorneys like to say, "a condition precedent" to item number 2. In other words, if this doesn't happen prior to the draft, number 2 becomes unlikely.)

He's not a UFA, but an RFA. Important distinction. And no, I don't think he'll be signed by the draft, so consider yourself wagered.

2. Giguere is dealt. The rumor mill sites (Spector's Trade Rumours, which cites another rumor site) seems to think that Detroit, Toronto & Tampa Bay are the most-likely destinations. If I had to pick one of the three, I'd say it's Tampa Bay.

I wouldn't. I don't think they can afford to spend $4 million on one salary slot.

He's not a UFA, but an RFA. Important distinction. And no, I don't think he'll be signed by the draft, so consider yourself wagered.

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I wouldn't. I don't think they can afford to spend $4 million on one salary slot.

Yes, I'm quite aware that Bryz is an RFA and I'm quite aware of the difference. However, if we were to trade Jiggy without first having signed Bryz that would (1) put Bryz in a position of strength when dealing with Burke and (2) provide us no cover if Bryz were to decide to play in Russia.

While, at first blush, that might appear to support your contention that my prediction won't come to pass, my counter to that is that the Entry Draft may be the optimal time to trade a goalie. Obviously, there are some other goalies out there, but most teams aren't willing to go into training camp without at least one established goaltender.

The draft is optimal because (1) all the NHL GMs are there, (2) it allows those teams that may have a preference as to which goalie they can bid on (rather than having to wait and see who's left) and (3) it enables teams to trade draft picks as well as players already in their respective organizations.

As far as the Bolts spending $4 mil "on one salary slot", you're assuming that no salary comes back to the Ducks. If $2 mil or more comes back to the Ducks in salary, I think the Bolts may well be able to afford it.

2. Giguere is dealt. The rumor mill sites (Spector's Trade Rumours, which cites another rumor site) seems to think that Detroit, Toronto & Tampa Bay are the most-likely destinations. If I had to pick one of the three, I'd say it's Tampa Bay.


Toronto has to deal with Belfours option year first.

What would the Ducks get for Giguere?
modin and d-man

Yadda yadda yadda, KS. I think you're speculating in the most simplistic terms. Bryz and his agent already know what salary cap pressure the Ducks are under, that Giguere is probably as good as gone, and that he's going to be the #1 guy here. They're going to negotiate accordingly, whether Giguere is still with the team or not. Which is why, unless one side or the other is particularly agreeable, there's no way it will get done by the draft.

And as for your hypothesis, here's my wager: The trade for the Ducks will not involve salary coming back in excess of $1 million. It's going to be a dump, I guarantee.

Yadda yadda yadda, KS. I think you're speculating in the most simplistic terms. Bryz and his agent already know what salary cap pressure the Ducks are under, that Giguere is probably as good as gone, and that he's going to be the #1 guy here. They're going to negotiate accordingly, whether Giguere is still with the team or not. Which is why, unless one side or the other is particularly agreeable, there's no way it will get done by the draft.

And as for your hypothesis, here's my wager: The trade for the Ducks will not involve salary coming back in excess of $1 million. It's going to be a dump, I guarantee.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I'm sticking my neck by saying it will happen. There's no risk in saying it won't. My initial post made it patently clear that I'm speculating.

As for the "Giguere is probably as good as gone", sure, I feel that way. But you'd be surprised how many posters on this site disagree.

BTW, unless you're privy to some inside information, aren't you "speculating" about the negotiating tactics Bryzgalov's agent will employ? Couldn't Burke go to them and say something to this effect: "Here's my offer. If you [Bryz] want to be guaranteed the number one spot going into camp, you've got until next Friday to sign (which will enable me to deal Jiggy at the draft)."

As far as whether it'll be a "dump", if the primary (or only) compensation coming back for Jiggy were a high draft pick (or picks) and/or some young, highly-regarded talent, IMO, that would NOT constitute a "dump". The Rucchin, LeClerc and Sykora trades clearly were salary dumps.

Predicting that Bryzgalov will re-sign(that's a given) and that Gigeure will be dealt is really nothing special, most hockey fans feel that is how things will shape up.

Predicting that Bryzgalov will re-sign(that's a given) and that Gigeure will be dealt is really nothing special, most hockey fans feel that is how things will shape up.

Bryz resigning is no give in. He could make more money in Russia and just might do that. He could demand more than Anaheim is willing to spend and could get traded. What is for certain is nothing is going to happen with Jiggy until Bryz is dealt with.

I'm sorry, but anyone thinking that you'll get a high-end prospect or high draft pick in a salary dump is kidding themselves. Unless you're taking back salary, a salary dump nowadays means you get reamed in terms of talent.

If Burke's willing to live with that to dump a mere $3.9 mil, and leave this team no better off than LA in net, then his detractors like Wetcoaster are probably right about him.

Bryz resigning is no give in. He could make more money in Russia and just might do that. He could demand more than Anaheim is willing to spend and could get traded. What is for certain is nothing is going to happen with Jiggy until Bryz is dealt with.

I agree, Bryzgalov has proven to be a great back-up goalie, but definetly not ready to be a starter. If Anaheim gives up Giguere, then who would we have in net? The playoffs proved that Bryzgalov is not ready to be a starter yet, I sure hope he stays in Anaheim as a back up. The Bryzgalov Giguere combination works pretty well, Burke would really need to see a good deal out there in order to trade Giggy.

Giguere being traded is stupid. Bryzgalov isn't as good as him. A downgrade of that magnitude would really kill the team.

I'm sorry, but anyone thinking that you'll get a high-end prospect or high draft pick in a salary dump is kidding themselves. Unless you're taking back salary, a salary dump nowadays means you get reamed in terms of talent.

If Burke's willing to live with that to dump a mere $3.9 mil, and leave this team no better off than LA in net, then his detractors like Wetcoaster are probably right about him.
Can't pay a guy 4 million if he's not even your clearcut starter..

I agree, Bryzgalov has proven to be a great back-up goalie, but definetly not ready to be a starter. If Anaheim gives up Giguere, then who would we have in net? The playoffs proved that Bryzgalov is not ready to be a starter yet, I sure hope he stays in Anaheim as a back up. The Bryzgalov Giguere combination works pretty well, Burke would really need to see a good deal out there in order to trade Giggy.


Money sez that he's looking to Vancouver for one of their five goalies.

Can't pay a guy 4 million if he's not even your clearcut starter..

To me, he is the clearcut starter, and anyway I'm far more interested in how much we're paying the tandem rather than how much we're paying the starter vs. the backup. Right now, we've got one of the best tandems in the league, while paying a reasonable combined amount.

If you'd rather have a cheap tandem, that's mediocre in quality, well I don't know what else to say.

Money sez that he's looking to Vancouver for one of their five goalies.

Not Cloutier please.

To me, he is the clearcut starter, and anyway I'm far more interested in how much we're paying the tandem rather than how much we're paying the starter vs. the backup. Right now, we've got one of the best tandems in the league, while paying a reasonable combined amount.

If you'd rather have a cheap tandem, that's mediocre in quality, well I don't know what else to say.
In the salary cap world you have to get bang for your buck, he's been a good, not great goalie whos' glove hand gets worse every year.

In the salary cap world you have to get bang for your buck, he's been a good, not great goalie whos' glove hand gets worse every year.

It's not only about bang for the buck. I mean, Kunitz is good bang for the buck, but if you have a team full of them you'll still suck. At some point, you get what you pay for.

Sure, Bryzgalov and McKee or whoever would be a cheap tandem, and maybe better bang for the buck, but you ain't winning squat with that.

Money sez that he's looking to Vancouver for one of their five goalies.
That wouldn't make any sense. The knock on Burke in Vancouver was that the inability to get a top goalie. Why would he trade for one of them?

Can't pay a guy 4 million if he's not even your clearcut starter..
Why do you need a clearcut starter? Just go with whomever is hot at the time.

The teams in the finals are proof of that.

It's not only about bang for the buck. I mean, Kunitz is good bang for the buck, but if you have a team full of them you'll still suck. At some point, you get what you pay for.

Sure, Bryzgalov and McKee or whoever would be a cheap tandem, and maybe better bang for the buck, but you ain't winning squat with that.
and what have we won with Giguere? if he's going to be the starter, fine keep him. if he's going to be part time starter/backup that's a waste of resources. Giguere didn't carry us this year like 2003, he was inconsistant. very good at times, very bad at others.

The teams in the finals are proof of that.
and how much do those two respective teams have invested in the goalies financially?

No idea. None of their goalies were as good as ours in the regular season, though.

and how much do those two respective teams have invested in the goalies financially?

There are a lot more examples of teams that went cheap in goal that failed than there are of teams having success that way. Are you honestly with a straight face going to tell me that a Bryzgalov-<insert unknown scrub> tandem is one you'd feel good about going into the playoffs with, as opposed to Giguere-Bryz?

If you want to make your argument that way, however, then I guess that since Carolina isn't spending bigtime money on a defenseman, we should dump Niedermayer too. Heck, for the price we're paying for Niedermayer, we could have paid for 4 of the Carolina defensemen!

Giguere didn't carry us this year like 2003, he was inconsistant. very good at times, very bad at others.

If you're right, then you're REALLY not going to get squat for him. After all, who wants a $3.9 mil goalie who sucks? It'll be like Roenick, you'll have to give something good up to get anyone to take him. Or you'll have to take a bad contract in return, which defeats the purpose.

and what have we won with Giguere? if he's going to be the starter, fine keep him. if he's going to be part time starter/backup that's a waste of resources. Giguere didn't carry us this year like 2003, he was inconsistant. very good at times, very bad at others.

I disagree, I feel this was the most consistent Jiggy has ever been, at least out of the start of season at least. If anyone paid close attention to out team from Oct-Dec, our special teams were awful. Awful! Jiggy wasn't the problem, it was our PK and we weren't scoring goals. The only thing about him that was inconsistent was his health. I had never seen Jiggy so strong at a start of a season. Had he not got hurt, he'd have 40 wins. It was no coincedance that once our special teams got better, Jiggy's number got better.

I disagree, I feel this was the most consistent Jiggy has ever been, at least out of the start of season at least. If anyone paid close attention to out team from Oct-Dec, our special teams were awful. Awful! Jiggy wasn't the problem, it was our PK and we weren't scoring goals. The only thing about him that was inconsistent was his health. I had never seen Jiggy so strong at a start of a season. Had he not got hurt, he'd have 40 wins. It was no coincedance that once our special teams got better, Jiggy's number got better.

I completely agree, saying Giguere didn't pull an '03 run is a vague statement and does not mean he sucks. There are many factors that contributed to this year's Giguere's performance: our defense was a mess for a while and he wasn't 100% healthy. I say if his health condition is good, we should keep him. Giguere is a solid goalie that can make the difference in a game. There are not a lot of free goalies out there that can bring that to Anaheim.

The teams in the finals are proof of that.

If the teams in the finals are proof of anything, it's that nobody knows anything. Would Gerber/Ward have seemed like a great goaltending tandem prior to the season? Gerber has a great season and then tanks in the playoffs, Ward barely plays in the regular season and turns into a poor man's Ken Dryden. Roloson is 36 years old and has a measly 97 career wins and gets the Oilers to the Finals. He goes down and everyone predicts doom and gloom for the Oilers and Markkanen gets them to Game Seven.

"Goaltending quality" is a lot more random than we like to think. You're only as good as the team in front of you.

If the teams in the finals are proof of anything, it's that nobody knows anything. Would Gerber/Ward have seemed like a great goaltending tandem prior to the season? Gerber has a great season and then tanks in the playoffs, Ward barely plays in the regular season and turns into a poor man's Ken Dryden. Roloson is 36 years old and has a measly 97 career wins and gets the Oilers to the Finals. He goes down and everyone predicts doom and gloom for the Oilers and Markkanen gets them to Game Seven.

"Goaltending quality" is a lot more random than we like to think. You're only as good as the team in front of you.
What the hell does it matter what it seemed like to start the year? Carolina has two solid goalies, and so do we. If you're advocating that we drop one goalie and just pick a replacement at random, because well, you never know, look at Cam Ward, I think that's stupid, money. We know what we have right now, and it's good enough.

If the teams in the finals are proof of anything, it's that nobody knows anything. Would Gerber/Ward have seemed like a great goaltending tandem prior to the season?

But again, by that reasoning we should dump guys like Niedermayer too. Maybe we can get any ol' youngster ... after all, he "might" play better than Niedermayer, for $5 mil a year less!

At some point, you gotta play the odds. Otherwise, who's to say you wouldn't be better off swapping Giguere and Bryzgalov for LA's goaltenders right now?


"Goaltending quality" is a lot more random than we like to think. You're only as good as the team in front of you.

While I agree that the team in front of you makes a difference, we've all seen many absolutely LOADED teams who never won squat if only because of their goaltending. Because sooner or later, you'll likely run into a team that's about as good as you with their skaters, but ALSO have a great goalie. And if you've gone bargain basement in net, you are seriously screwed.

What you're trying to make is basically the same argument Sens and Wings fans have often made ... that guys like Lalime, Legace, or Emery are plenty good enough to win a Cup with because of having such a stacked team in front of them.

What the hell does it matter what it seemed like to start the year? Carolina has two solid goalies, and so do we. If you're advocating that we drop one goalie and just pick a replacement at random, because well, you never know, look at Cam Ward, I think that's stupid, money. We know what we have right now, and it's good enough.

And it also overlooks the fact that 1) we around here were all saying when Gerbs was still backing up Giguere that he would probably make a good starter somewhere, and 2) Cam Ward wasn't exactly some no-name prospect.

There are a lot more examples of teams that went cheap in goal that failed than there are of teams having success that way. Are you honestly with a straight face going to tell me that a Bryzgalov-<insert unknown scrub> tandem is one you'd feel good about going into the playoffs with, as opposed to Giguere-Bryz?

If you want to make your argument that way, however, then I guess that since Carolina isn't spending bigtime money on a defenseman, we should dump Niedermayer too. Heck, for the price we're paying for Niedermayer, we could have paid for 4 of the Carolina defensemen!
No all i'm saying is we shouldn't pay Giguere 4 million dollars to be a part time starter. Look at all the teams that were in the conference finals. the ducks were the ONLY team that had a goalie making a significant amount of coin and he didn't see action until game 4.

If you're right, then you're REALLY not going to get squat for him. After all, who wants a $3.9 mil goalie who sucks? It'll be like Roenick, you'll have to give something good up to get anyone to take him. Or you'll have to take a bad contract in return, which defeats the purpose.
Where did I say he sucks? I said he's inconsistant, which is true.

No all i'm saying is we shouldn't pay Giguere 4 million dollars to be a part time starter. Look at all the teams that were in the conference finals. the ducks were the ONLY team that had a goalie making a significant amount of coin and he didn't see action until game 4.

Yeah, and we were the only team with a 90-scorer for 1M$. ;)

Come on...we would probably have missed the playoffs without him, so are the playoffs worth 4M$?

Yeah, and we were the only team with a 90-scorer for 1M$. ;)

Come on...we would probably have missed the playoffs without him, so are the playoffs worth 4M$?
and now we have to pay that 90 point scorer 3.7 million dollars.

trading giguere is retarded. there, i said it.

and now we have to pay that 90 point scorer 3.7 million dollars.

Maybe we shouldn't, since Edmonton is showing that you don't need a 90 point scorer (or even a point per game guy), right? Or do you only selectively use the criteria of, "look who's in the Finals and what they have, we don't need a <insert whatever the Canes/Oilers don't have>?"

Maybe we shouldn't, since Edmonton is showing that you don't need a 90 point scorer (or even a point per game guy), right? Or do you only selectively use the criteria of, "look who's in the Finals and what they have, we don't need a <insert whatever the Canes/Oilers don't have>?"
How is it selective critera? we were the only team with a 'proven' goalie in the final 4, and he had nothing to do with the Ducks getting there in terms of playoff performance.

Selanne had alot to do with the Ducks getting where they were, Giguere on the importance scale was not in the top five for this team this season.

trading giguere is retarded. there, i said it.

Most thought out and reasonable post on this entire thread :teach:.

Giguere on the importance scale was not in the top five for this team this season.

Since I can't be there in person, can you please slap yourself in the face?

How is it selective critera? we were the only team with a 'proven' goalie in the final 4, and he had nothing to do with the Ducks getting there in terms of playoff performance.

It's selective because you point to the final 4 for goalies, but not for anything else. It's selective because you try to argue that unproven goalies are no big problem, but there's a heck of a lot more teams with unproven goalies that fail than there are that succeed. It's selective because you talk about how Carolina and Edmonton went cheap in goal, but that Selanne earned a big raise ... well what the heck do you think Cam Ward will be getting on his next contract?

Edmonton made it without a point per game forward. Carolina made it without a Norris caliber defenseman. Why don't you draw conclusions about what we should do from that? Why only with regards to goaltending? And why not use examples of all those teams with unproven goalies who didn't even get anywhere near the playoffs, or who crashed and burned with unproven goalies in the postseason?

Selanne had alot to do with the Ducks getting where they were, Giguere on the importance scale was not in the top five for this team this season.

Now that's just silly. Giguere was statistically one of the best goalies in the league from January on ... not coincidentally, when the Ducks made their biggest push up the standings.

Since I can't be there in person, can you please slap yourself in the face?

:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

trading giguere is retarded. there, i said it.

Agreed.

It's selective because you point to the final 4 for goalies, but not for anything else. It's selective because you try to argue that unproven goalies are no big problem, but there's a heck of a lot more teams with unproven goalies that fail than there are that succeed. It's selective because you talk about how Carolina and Edmonton went cheap in goal, but that Selanne earned a big raise ... well what the heck do you think Cam Ward will be getting on his next contract?

Edmonton made it without a point per game forward. Carolina made it without a Norris caliber defenseman. Why don't you draw conclusions about what we should do from that? Why only with regards to goaltending? And why not use examples of all those teams with unproven goalies who didn't even get anywhere near the playoffs, or who crashed and burned with unproven goalies in the postseason?



Now that's just silly. Giguere was statistically one of the best goalies in the league from January on ... not coincidentally, when the Ducks made their biggest push up the standings.
and not coincidentally when the team in front of him was playing dominant hockey, that was one of his good stretches. Like I said if he's going to be the starter, fine i'm cool with his salary. if he's being paid 4 million to be part time starter while Bryzgalov is collecting over a million dollars then something needs to be done.

and not coincidentally when the team in front of him was playing dominant hockey, that was one of his good stretches. Like I said if he's going to be the starter, fine i'm cool with his salary. if he's being paid 4 million to be part time starter while Bryzgalov is collecting over a million dollars then something needs to be done.

I'd rather be "overpaying" for a high quality tandem, than getting fair value from a mediocre tandem.

I'd rather be "overpaying" for a high quality tandem, than getting fair value from a mediocre tandem.

Hear hear! (or is it here here?). Besides, it'll only be for one year anyways. Hell maybe not even that long. I feel it'll be a Hebert/Tugnut situation. Once one guy shows he's the guy, the other could be traded. If anything Jiggy has to be completely bumped from the starting spot before he's traded.

If Jiggy gets traded and we miss the playoffs I can already hear the people..."we shouldn't have traded Jiggy", "Bryz is not getting us anywhere"...and it will be the people who like to trade Jiggy now...

If Jiggy gets traded and we miss the playoffs I can already hear the people..."we shouldn't have traded Jiggy", "Bryz is not getting us anywhere"...and it will be the people who like to trade Jiggy now...

So lets not trade him :).

Giguere and Brodeur had quite similar numbers this year...just saying...because a lot of people seem to be forgetting how good he was down the stretch for the Ducks.

What the hell does it matter what it seemed like to start the year? Carolina has two solid goalies, and so do we. If you're advocating that we drop one goalie and just pick a replacement at random, because well, you never know, look at Cam Ward, I think that's stupid, money. We know what we have right now, and it's good enough.

I'm not advocating it, not that that matters since it's going to happen anyway, whether we like it or not. I'm just not as worried about it as you are, since I doubt whatever goalie is tagged to replace Giguere will be selected "at random."

Looking at what our projected salaries are for next year and that we have to replace Salei with someone of quality (which I think is more important than whomever goaltender 1a/1b might be, feel free to disagree) and it doesn't add up. And since Jiggy is the more cap burdensome of the lot, he's likely the one to go. Go ahead and call it retarded when you see what McDonald, Lupul and Bryzgalov resign for, and what the market value is for a solid second-pairing defenseman.

What you're trying to make is basically the same argument Sens and Wings fans have often made ... that guys like Lalime, Legace, or Emery are plenty good enough to win a Cup with because of having such a stacked team in front of them.

It might be enough if those stacked teams actually played to their abilities when the playoffs started. I think in all of the above cases, they didn't. To put it another way, if the Ducks played like the Sens or Wings did this year, we wouldn't have gotten out of the first round.

If the right deal comes along, I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger.

If we're facing the choice of keeping Giguere + not getting new players and getting a no.2 d-man (trade/UFA-signing) while going with Bryz + no.2 goalie, I think it would be an easy choice for me.

I'm not advocating it, not that that matters since it's going to happen anyway, whether we like it or not. I'm just not as worried about it as you are, since I doubt whatever goalie is tagged to replace Giguere will be selected "at random."

Then said goalie won't be totally cheap either, so our total savings will be a lot less than $3.9 mil. More like half that. In which case you have to really ask yourself if it makes sense or not to make a serious downgrade in goal for the sake of $1-2 mil in cap space.

Looking at what our projected salaries are for next year and that we have to replace Salei with someone of quality (which I think is more important than whomever goaltender 1a/1b might be, feel free to disagree) and it doesn't add up.

What adds up even less is having what would be a pretty good roster, but not the goaltending required to win it all. We Anaheim fans have been lucky ... for the most part, we've seen nothing but solid goalies play for us since the beginning (except for towards the end of Hebert's career). I don't think some people around here realize just how bad it is when goaltending is your weakest link.

You can't just fix that very easily (just ask Burke), and it gives you ZERO chance at a Cup until you do. Heck, Edmonton wasn't even going to make the playoffs without that Roloson trade, now with good goaltending they're a win away from the Cup. Tampa went from Cup winner, to run of the mill team, mostly because of inferior goaltending. And hey, it's not like a Grahame wasn't a perfectly good backup, either.

And since Jiggy is the more cap burdensome of the lot, he's likely the one to go. Go ahead and call it retarded when you see what McDonald, Lupul and Bryzgalov resign for, and what the market value is for a solid second-pairing defenseman.

Well, if people are going to dump on Giguere and say he had nothing to do with our season, then McDonald (who did little in the playoffs) and Lupul (who's been a whipping boy all year) should be dumped as well rather than give them raises, no? That alone might save plenty of money. And giving Bryzgalov a big raise is out of the question if you're planning on going bargain hunting in net.

It might be enough if those stacked teams actually played to their abilities when the playoffs started. I think in all of the above cases, they didn't. To put it another way, if the Ducks played like the Sens or Wings did this year, we wouldn't have gotten out of the first round.

Part of not playing up to their abilities was that they didn't get big saves when they needed them. Even when the Wings won, they got HUGE saves from the likes of Hasek and Vernon. It wasn't like they were so good that they made goaltending irrelevant. As stacked as they were, they STILL needed more. As for the Sens, in spite of their playoff failures, more often than not they've been eliminated by teams who got better goaltending performances.

Really, I'm starting to wonder if some posters have gone insane ... does everyone think that in the new NHL, suddenly you don't need particularly special goaltending to win? Because I'm looking at a guy like Ward, and I'm seeing the best rookie goaltending performance since Marty Brodeur. Is that somehow supposed to prove that you don't need a, "proven," goalie? Maybe, but it doesn't prove that you don't need great goaltending. If you want to bank on getting that from an unknown quantity, then good freaking luck.

Hear hear! (or is it here here?). Besides, it'll only be for one year anyways. Hell maybe not even that long. I feel it'll be a Hebert/Tugnut situation. Once one guy shows he's the guy, the other could be traded. If anything Jiggy has to be completely bumped from the starting spot before he's traded.

TheJoeMan, I think this is the first time we have ever agreed on anything.

Anyway, I don't understand why everyone is in such a rush to trade Jiggy. I don't think teams are going to give up that much for a guy who was benched in the playoffs. Now some say it could give us more cap room. Bryzgalov is going to get a raise that's a given, and if I was guessing I would say the minimum he gets is around 2.5 million. So if we kept Jiggy it would be around 1.5 million more; to me that's not a huge cap hit. The main reason I feel this way though is because if we only were able to keep one of Bryz or Jiggy; I'd want to keep Jiggy. Now if someone was leaning towards Bryz, then I could see how they were thinking. I just don't think Bryz has shown that he can play like Jiggy did down the stretch.

What adds up even less is having what would be a pretty good roster, but not the goaltending required to win it all.

Which would make us the Burke-era Canucks. Has he learned his lesson?

Well, if people are going to dump on Giguere and say he had nothing to do with our season, then McDonald (who did little in the playoffs) and Lupul (who's been a whipping boy all year) should be dumped as well rather than give them raises, no?

If I had to choose between Giguere and Lupul, well, it would be an easy choice. One-dimensional scorers are relatively easy to replace.

If I had to choose between Giguere and Lupul, well, it would be an easy choice. One-dimensional scorers are relatively easy to replace.

I agree. We could easily save a million or so from dumping Lupul rather than re-signing him. Whereas between giving Bryzgalov a reasonable raise, plus getting a competent backup, you're probably looking at saving only about a million on goaltending by dumping Giggy as well. Lupul + questionable goaltending, or solid goaltending - Lupul, for the same money? Easy choice.

TheJoeMan, I think this is the first time we have ever agreed on anything.

I can't expell nothing but hot air all the time. ;)


Anyhow, a big thing I think we are all over looking is the fact that we only need about 4-6 mil to fill in our holes. Just looking at things logisitcally we need a mid-level, dependable d-man that'll make the money Rusty won't play for (2-2.5 mil) and a 2nd/3rd line winger who makes less than Friesen (1.5-2 mil). If a more attractive player sits ready for the taking and will sign for like 3-4 mil than they'd be an option too. But this is all we need. I thing Teemu's signing was huge. He took a modest raise and is sending a message to the RFA's that we are here to win, not to get greedy. I feel guys like Mac, Lupes, Kunie and Bryz will take modest raises too. Deserved raises, but modest.

Right now we are at roughly 23-24 mil on payroll and these players could realistically take these kind of raises:

Kunitz - 1 mil
Lupul - 2-2.5 mil
McDonald - 2.5-3 mil
Bryzgalov - 1.5
Vishnevski - 1.5

DiPenta and Fedoruk - .500 k

That's a total of 33.5-34.5. That leaves plenty of cap space. Hell that leaves room for some of those raises to be even a little more bloated and we still have enough room to make the proper additions. Trading Jiggy is just unnecessary.

We don't need a lot to make this team better. We could get a Willie Mitchell for 2.5 mil or a Pavel Kubina for 3. I'm sure 2-2.5 mil can convince a Jamie Langenbrunner to play with Scott Niedermayer again or 3 mil will get Anson Carter to play in So Cal, this time for a contender.

So unless Burke gets a fantastic offer (that includes a goalie in return) a trade for Jiggy isn't in the cards realistically. This all weighs on when we are all certain Bryzgalov is the starter for the future. I am not ready to ride him to a championship. I'm more than comfortable with Jiggy, at least for one more season. But until Bryz proves he's the man, we NEED Jiggy.

Then said goalie won't be totally cheap either, so our total savings will be a lot less than $3.9 mil. More like half that. In which case you have to really ask yourself if it makes sense or not to make a serious downgrade in goal for the sake of $1-2 mil in cap space.

This assumes we're going to acquire a goaltender that's significantly worse than Jiggy but making only $1 or $2 million less. Yes, I agree, that would be really silly. Which probably means that Burke isn't going to do anything like that.

You've brought up that we've had success with goaltenders. I don't think that's an accident. I think Francois Allaire has something to do with it. I think Allaire was the guy that turned Jiggy into Jiggy (ask any Calgary fan... he was horrible with them).

I think what Burke hopes to acquire is the next Jiggy, not necessarily a young prospect, but a guy with some tools who hasn't had much success wherever he is, a guy that Allaire can work with. There are several goaltenders out there who aren't making a million and could easily fit that bill.

Part of not playing up to their abilities was that they didn't get big saves when they needed them.

Horse ****. That has nothing to do with them playing up to their abilities. Both the Wings and Sens hung their goaltenders out to dry on several occasion. A goaltender can't be expected to account for that. Detroit also didn't extend much extra effort to make anything happen at the offensive end, which Legace has no part of. It wasn't Cujo's fault in 2003 or 2004, and it wasn't Manny's fault this year.

If I had to choose between Giguere and Lupul, well, it would be an easy choice. One-dimensional scorers are relatively easy to replace.

Really? Because for the longest time the Ducks had a hard time getting *any* goal-scorers, let alone a 23-year old guy who scores 28 goals. And since the issue we're talking about is cost, where do we find these one-dimensional goal-scorers for $900k?

At his age, Lupul is young enough to either add another dimension or get significantly better at his one dimension that nobody will care what he doesn't do well.

This assumes we're going to acquire a goaltender that's significantly worse than Jiggy but making only $1 or $2 million less. Yes, I agree, that would be really silly. Which probably means that Burke isn't going to do anything like that.

I'm factoring in a raise for Bryz, plus a good backup which will probably cost $1.5 mil or so, one would think. Any lower than that, and you're talking about a serious downgrade. That would keep the goaltending tandem from being awful. But even such a downgrade doesn't appear to me to be worth the savings.

You've brought up that we've had success with goaltenders. I don't think that's an accident. I think Francois Allaire has something to do with it. I think Allaire was the guy that turned Jiggy into Jiggy (ask any Calgary fan... he was horrible with them).

Allaire is great, but he couldn't do crap with Lalime, so it's not like he works miracles. I don't think it's that easy to find a truly promising young talent that makes a low salary who will be readily available, either. There are teams desperate for goaltending who will take that roll of the dice and give up more to do it than we would. And most of what you're gonna get are the Bouchers and Birons and Aebischers and Garons of the league, who were once highly touted but don't seem to have, "it."

Horse ****. That has nothing to do with them playing up to their abilities. Both the Wings and Sens hung their goaltenders out to dry on several occasion. A goaltender can't be expected to account for that. Detroit also didn't extend much extra effort to make anything happen at the offensive end, which Legace has no part of. It wasn't Cujo's fault in 2003 or 2004, and it wasn't Manny's fault this year.

No, it wasn't their fault, but they also didn't make the difference. Unless you can build a team that's so much better than everyone else that you can roll to a Cup in spite of less-than-great goaltending, then at some point you need the big saves. Did Cujo provide those big saves? Did Legace? Did Lalime? Did Emery? etc.

Parity means that you're not going to outplay other teams decisively all that often. Which means, you'd better get someone who can make big saves, no matter who you are. Edmonton got the big saves, Detroit didn't, and we didn't against the Oilers either. Didn't matter that we, "outplayed," them for most of the series, either.

Really? Because for the longest time the Ducks had a hard time getting *any* goal-scorers, let alone a 23-year old guy who scores 28 goals. And since the issue we're talking about is cost, where do we find these one-dimensional goal-scorers for $900k?

True enough. But it's sure a lot easier to survive with one less scoring winger in the playoffs than it is to survive mediocre goaltending. I can name a few teams that made it to the Cup with so-so forward lineups, but I can't think of any who did it with so-so goaltending.

It's almost like you people think goaltending is one of the least important things for a team, instead of the number one thing, which it always has been and always will be. If you dont' have goaltending, you have NOTHING. Come back to me when a team wins with a Cloutier in net.

Allaire is great, but he couldn't do crap with Lalime, so it's not like he works miracles.

In Francios's defense, we had Lalime for exactly one season which means he had exatly one training camp to do anything with him. Miracles no, but give the guy time to do his magic.

I'd rather be "overpaying" for a high quality tandem, than getting fair value from a mediocre tandem.
and Brian Burke may see it differently. He may think Bryzgalov is ready and use Gigueres salary to improve other areas.

What adds up even less is having what would be a pretty good roster, but not the goaltending required to win it all. We Anaheim fans have been lucky ... for the most part, we've seen nothing but solid goalies play for us since the beginning (except for towards the end of Hebert's career). I don't think some people around here realize just how bad it is when goaltending is your weakest link.
So making Bryzgalov the starter and shedding Gigueres salary makes the goaltending a weak link?? Remind me what Giguere did in the playoffs?


You can't just fix that very easily (just ask Burke), and it gives you ZERO chance at a Cup until you do. Heck, Edmonton wasn't even going to make the playoffs without that Roloson trade, now with good goaltending they're a win away from the Cup.
And Roloson had nothing to do with any of their wins in the finals. How many of you thought Gerber and Ward would take the Canes this far?

Tampa went from Cup winner, to run of the mill team, mostly because of inferior goaltending. And hey, it's not like a Grahame wasn't a perfectly good backup, either.
How many Lightning games did you watch? They had more problems than just goaltending, and with the way Khabibulin played this year they made the right call.



Well, if people are going to dump on Giguere and say he had nothing to do with our season, then McDonald (who did little in the playoffs) and Lupul (who's been a whipping boy all year) should be dumped as well rather than give them raises, no? That alone might save plenty of money. And giving Bryzgalov a big raise is out of the question if you're planning on going bargain hunting in net.
Mcdonald averaged a PPG during the season, Lupul is 22 with 28 goals and they both earned under a million dollars. Same for Bryzgalov, if Bryzgalov wants a big raise what would you suggest Burke do? We surely can't carry two goalies both making alot of money.




Really, I'm starting to wonder if some posters have gone insane ... does everyone think that in the new NHL, suddenly you don't need particularly special goaltending to win? Because I'm looking at a guy like Ward, and I'm seeing the best rookie goaltending performance since Marty Brodeur. Is that somehow supposed to prove that you don't need a, "proven," goalie? Maybe, but it doesn't prove that you don't need great goaltending. If you want to bank on getting that from an unknown quantity, then good freaking luck.
Do you think Jussi Markanen is a special goalie? did you think Gerber or Cam Ward were 4 months ago? What about Roloson?

Mcdonald averaged a PPG during the season, Lupul is 22 with 28 goals and they both earned under a million dollars. Same for Bryzgalov, if Bryzgalov wants a big raise what would you suggest Burke do? We surely can't carry two goalies both making alot of money.

Says who? Bryz isn't going to get anymore than 1.5 mil (he's played less than 40 career games, let's be realistic here) and that combined with Jiggy is less than a few teams are paying for just there starter. You sign Bryz to a two-year 3 mil deal and if Jiggy faulters, you trade him and we all move on. This is a one year experiment to see who are starter for future is. We have lots of cap room and no pressure to move Giguere. I really don't see the need to make this trade happen so soon.

We are talking about a rookie goalie in Bryzgalov here. He had a good playoffs (but proved in the WCF that he's very human) and a good rookie year as a backup. He deserves to be resigned but to just ditch Jiggy because he makes a lot and the fact that Bryz is good is stupid. What if Bryz can't handle 60-65 games? What are we supposed to do about our backup? I remind you this year we got the most wins out of a backup and to think we can get that out of McKee, Marsters or Wall is laughable. Jiggy has gotten over 30 wins twice so we know he can handle it, we don't know if Ilya can. This is my main concern.

We also need to throw out this whole "What did Jiggy do for us in the playoffs?". As of right now it is 10 months from the playoffs and we have to worry to getting there first. We have to worry about being a perrenial playoff team before we worry about being a contender. We have never made the playoffs in back to back years. When it comes to getting us to the playoffs, which Jiggy has done twice, I want to stick with him.

Not exactly unpredictable, but this thread has turned to the issue of the merits of trading Jiggy versus keeping him. My initial post is my prediction that Jiggy will be traded by this this weekend (i.e., up to, and including, the first day of the draft); not whether that would be the most-prudent course of action. Bear in my mind two things that haven't been mentioned thus far: (1) Burke loves to make a splash on draft day and (2) he has no qualms about making controversial moves, whether they anger the fans or not.

I still maintain that the greatest number of deals will be available to Burke in the next six days (counting today). The more teams that take care of their goaltending needs, the less opportunity there will be. Don't be shocked to see Burke use Jiggy to move up into the top five picks or so in the draft. (The Blues perhaps?)

One other point: for those of you who argue that the Ducks' best option is to keep both goaltenders, the issue may not be whether that would provide the strongest tandem between the pipes but whether either of these guys will accept the role of being a number two goalie. That situation never seems to work for very long.

Yeah this thread got a bit off topic so I'll chime in that I feel Giguere won't be moved this weekend. It all depends on Bryz and I don't think he's in any hurry to resign. I'm sure he ultimately wants to but has got to at least listen to offers from Russia. I don't think Burke is "desperate" to move Jiggy so unless Bryz signs in the next four days, Jiggy stays a Duck.

Burke has made big moves at drafts before (though I can only think of the Pronger pick trade and the Sedin Twins trade) but all the talk last year was he was going to trade the #2 pick (anyone remember Tanguay and Hejduk for #2 pick?) and he didn't do it. There's no pressure to improve this team dramatically and no pressure financially either so I feel Burke will only trade Jiggy if there's a deal on the table that can't be ignore. But when push comes to shove, I feel the top 5 pick teams with hold onto their picks and other teams looking for goalies will merely sign them.

So making Bryzgalov the starter and shedding Gigueres salary makes the goaltending a weak link??

Yes it would. Bryzgalov and McKee or whoever is no better than what any number of other teams had going into last season, and most of them ended up out of the playoffs or quickly eliminated.

Remind me what Giguere did in the playoffs?

Ah, I see, so if someone's hurt, that's it, eh? I guess if you were running the Sabres about 10 years ago, you'd have dumped Hasek because Shields came in and played great in the playoffs while Hasek was hurt/whining.

And Roloson had nothing to do with any of their wins in the finals. How many of you thought Gerber and Ward would take the Canes this far?

Of course none of us thought so. OTOH, there are about 20 tandems in the league I didn't think were good enough to win a Cup with this year. I feel pretty safe in saying that my hit rate's pretty good. If you want to play the, "exceptions," game, be my guest. Hey, maybe we can win without a point per game forward, either, just like Edmonton, right? And maybe we can win without a Norris-caliber defenseman, just like the Canes, right?

How many Lightning games did you watch? They had more problems than just goaltending, and with the way Khabibulin played this year they made the right call.

They did have more problems than goaltending, but bad goaltending on top of other problems guaranteed a mediocre season. Besides, it's not just that they let Khabi go (which made sense given the salary), but that they didn't get a real replacement.

Mcdonald averaged a PPG during the season,

Oh I see, NOW regular season performance matters, and we gloss over how he didn't do anything in the playoffs. But for Giguere, we focus on his injured playoffs. Yeah, no double standard there.

Lupul is 22 with 28 goals and they both earned under a million dollars.

Not anymore they won't. So why not advocate dumping them?

Same for Bryzgalov, if Bryzgalov wants a big raise what would you suggest Burke do? We surely can't carry two goalies both making alot of money.

If Bryzgalov wants a big raise after a decent but unspectacular playoff, plus one season as an NHL backup, then to give him the big raise and dump Giguere for salary reasons is, frankly, a stupid plan, both from a cap and a hockey perspective.

Do you think Jussi Markanen is a special goalie? did you think Gerber or Cam Ward were 4 months ago? What about Roloson?

Like it or not, Roloson was an all-star last full season, and was a big part of getting Minny to the WCF the year before that. Markannen's nothing special of course, but there's a big difference between being thrown in to win a few games, and having to win 4 rounds. Gerbs was IMO the best backup in the league when he played for us. Ward was one of the best goalie prospects in hockey.

But fine, let's say you want to argue that any of those guys was an unknown before the season. But look at how many teams went with similar solutions and failed! Why are you picking the two teams that are the exceptions, and not all those teams like LA, Vancouver, etc whose similarly iffy solutions failed miserably?

Honestly, what on earth has sold you so convincingly on Bryzgalov? Were you this sold on Brian Boucher when he had that long shutout streak in the playoffs a few years ago? If you dump Giguere and Bryzgalov turns out like that, we are DEAD.

Honestly, what on earth has sold you so convincingly on Bryzgalov? Were you this sold on Brian Boucher when he had that long shutout streak in the playoffs a few years ago? If you dump Giguere and Bryzgalov turns out like that, we are DEAD.

:::Cue cliche everyone-starts-clapping-like-in-the-80's moment:::

Thank you! Someone with common sense. We are weighing a proven starter and a upstart rookie by a couple million dollars. It's not that big of a gamble, hell it's not a gamble at all to just resign Bryz and have the both of them on this squad. That's what we had this year and look how it turned out.

Jiggy knows he has no room for error and will come out with a great effort, either to remain on the team for the future or to improve his stock for other teams. Both goalies showed they are professionals when they have to ride the bench and stepped up when called upon. Why screw with that? This is a team game. There is no reason not to bring back every single member of this team.

There is no reason not to bring back every single member of this team.

So, you'd be content to go without a single change in the roster? The team played very well and there was a lot of "chemistry", but there's still plenty of room for improvement.

Really? Because for the longest time the Ducks had a hard time getting *any* goal-scorers, let alone a 23-year old guy who scores 28 goals. And since the issue we're talking about is cost, where do we find these one-dimensional goal-scorers for $900k?

Really really. I think 28 goals would be pretty easily replaced by improvements and full seasons from Getzlaf/Perry/Penner, and our hopefully improved power play with our new QB (please oh please). Obviously Lupul could explode next season, or become less of a Sykora, and I have said repeatedly that I have a lot of hope for him still, but maintaining (or bettering) last season's offensive output would be very easy even without him around.

Being a top 10 defensive squad becomes only a potentiality if we downgrade in goal. I'm not saying it couldn't work either way - lose the proven scorer or the proven goalie - but I think keeping the goalies together is the smarter way to go about it.

At his age, Lupul is young enough to either add another dimension or get significantly better at his one dimension that nobody will care what he doesn't do well.

He'd have to be significantly better - superstar territory - for a team to have the desire to ignore his shortcomings. 90-100 points.

So, you'd be content to go without a single change in the roster? The team played very well and there was a lot of "chemistry", but there's still plenty of room for improvement.

Sure. I feel the reason we lost to the Oilers was because of rookie mistakes. Our guys aren't rookies anymore and will be better. I'd totally welcome back Salei and Friesen but I don't think that'll happen so all we need to do is replace them. Guys like Redden, Blake, Elias, Sakic etc would be nice but we don't need them. Just guys who can provide what Rusty and Friesen brought to the table and hopefully more.

Really really. I think 28 goals would be pretty easily replaced by improvements and full seasons from Getzlaf/Perry/Penner, and our hopefully improved power play with our new QB (please oh please). Obviously Lupul could explode next season, or become less of a Sykora, and I have said repeatedly that I have a lot of hope for him still, but maintaining (or bettering) last season's offensive output would be very easy even without him around.

Being a top 10 defensive squad becomes only a potentiality if we downgrade in goal. I'm not saying it couldn't work either way - lose the proven scorer or the proven goalie - but I think keeping the goalies together is the smarter way to go about it.



He'd have to be significantly better - superstar territory - for a team to have the desire to ignore his shortcomings. 90-100 points.

What short comings? The fact that he doesn't score every time he shoots the puck? If a guy isn't a defensive liability, (which he isn't) takes a lot of chances, (which is does) and isn't a primary scoring option (plays on the second line) than I'd say he doesn't have any short comings. All of the critizism of Lupul has really puzzled me. Our leading goal scorer in the playoffs people, ever. I feel with Penner on his line he could net 40 goals next year. He's a great player and only 22, a lot of teams would kill to have this guy.

He actually is a defensive liability, and he spends a lot of time being a nonfactor, regular season and playoffs, especially at times when we really, really need him. We were a bad-to-mediocre team to start the season because we had no reliable secondary scoring options. That didn't change until the kids joined the club for good. Lupul was along for the ride, nothing more.

He did score a club record 9 post-season goals, true - but he scored 6 of them in two games.

He actually is a defensive liability, and he spends a lot of time being a nonfactor, regular season and playoffs, especially at times when we really, really need him. We were a bad-to-mediocre team to start the season because we had no reliable secondary scoring options. That didn't change until the kids joined the club for good. Lupul was along for the ride, nothing more.

He did score a club record 9 post-season goals, true - but he scored 6 of them in two games.

He won one of those games single-handedly and did something no other player in the history of the NHL has done: score 4 goals in a single playoff game including the game winner in overtime. Prior to Lupul's feat, no Duck ever had a hat trick in the playoffs.

The "nonfactor" label can be hung on most players who primarily are snipers. Hockey is a low-scoring game. It is virtually inevitable that even major scorers will have multiple-game sequences in which they don't score.

While you are correct that "[W]e were a bad-to-mediocre team to start the season. . .", it's far too simplistic to say it was ". . .because we had no reliable secondary scoring options." What about the fact that our penalty kill was one of the worst in the league at that time? Our power play was dreadful. We had a new general manager, a new coach, a number of new players and a new set of rules. It also seems to be that Jiggy was less than "razor sharp" early on. All of these were contributing factors.

Really really. I think 28 goals would be pretty easily replaced by improvements and full seasons from Getzlaf/Perry/Penner, and our hopefully improved power play with our new QB (please oh please).

None of which requires actually getting rid of Lupul.

Obviously Lupul could explode next season, or become less of a Sykora, and I have said repeatedly that I have a lot of hope for him still, but maintaining (or bettering) last season's offensive output would be very easy even without him around.

I don't think it would be very easy even with him since I wouldn't expect Teemu and Andy Mac to repeat their numbers, but that's just me. A true power play QB would go a long way towards helping, yeah. In any case, it's a lot more likely with him than without him.

In any event, there's no way Lupul is going anywhere, unless his agent really starts to play hardball and then he becomes fantastic trade bait.

I don't think the issue is Giguere vs. Lupul, anyway. It's Giguere vs. quality defenseman, and I think we need the latter more.


He'd have to be significantly better - superstar territory - for a team to have the desire to ignore his shortcomings. 90-100 points.

I don't think he's *that* bad. If he can score 40 goals or thereabouts, he's a plus player.

He won one of those games single-handedly and did something no other player in the history of the NHL has done: score 4 goals in a single playoff game including the game winner in overtime. Prior to Lupul's feat, no Duck ever had a hat trick in the playoffs.

I know. Kudos. So did you know there were 15 other games we played...

The "nonfactor" label can be hung on most players who primarily are snipers. Hockey is a low-scoring game. It is virtually inevitable that even major scorers will have multiple-game sequences in which they don't score.

I know. One dimensional players of any stripe will fade if their not contributing in their token way. You're not saying anything different from what I said. Lupul either scores or does nothing.

While you are correct that "[W]e were a bad-to-mediocre team to start the season. . .", it's far too simplistic to say it was ". . .because we had no reliable secondary scoring options." What about the fact that our penalty kill was one of the worst in the league at that time? Our power play was dreadful. We had a new general manager, a new coach, a number of new players and a new set of rules. It also seems to be that Jiggy was less than "razor sharp" early on. All of these were contributing factors.

Once again, I know, but we didn't win consistently until we started outscoring our opponents. Our special teams were only average - the bare minimum to keep us in games. When the defense settled down life became a lot easier for everyone, but the team had no true teeth until we could count on someone besides Selanne and McDonald to score.

None of which requires actually getting rid of Lupul.

Of course.



I don't think it would be very easy even with him since I wouldn't expect Teemu and Andy Mac to repeat their numbers, but that's just me. A true power play QB would go a long way towards helping, yeah. In any case, it's a lot more likely with him than without him.

Of course.

In any event, there's no way Lupul is going anywhere, unless his agent really starts to play hardball and then he becomes fantastic trade bait.

I don't want him to go anywhere. It was just a hypothetical. I would rather we keep him and see him mature into a real hockey player.

I don't think the issue is Giguere vs. Lupul, anyway. It's Giguere vs. quality defenseman, and I think we need the latter more.

I know, right? Where've I heard that before?

I don't think he's *that* bad. If he can score 40 goals or thereabouts, he's a plus player.

To score 40 he'd need a ton more ice time, which he'd have to earn by not sucking 70% of the time. We'll see.

I don't think the issue is Giguere vs. Lupul, anyway. It's Giguere vs. quality defenseman, and I think we need the latter more.

Perhaps, but only so long as Bryzgalov proves to be the real thing, which he hasn't yet. If he falters or gets hurt, and we have no Giguere, we won't even make the playoffs, never mind challenge for the Cup. OTOH, if we go in without an upgrade at #2 defenseman, we're still a playoff team and still have a strong shot at making a run.

So it may be true that we "need' the defenseman more at this time, but a mistake with the goaltenders would be devastating to this franchise. We have a good thing in net right now, and some folks want to mess with that, for the sake of maybe $2 mil in cap space at best? When we already have plenty of cap space to spare?

Many teams would love to have our, "problems," in net, salaries and all. Desperate teams would gladly spend $5-6 mil for ONE good goalie, and here we are crying about maybe having to spend $5.5 mil on a tandem?

Perhaps, but only so long as Bryzgalov proves to be the real thing, which he hasn't yet.

For better or worse, the decision has to be made before Bryz gets the opportunity to prove he's the real deal. We don't have the luxury of waiting.

If he falters or gets hurt, and we have no Giguere, we won't even make the playoffs, never mind challenge for the Cup. OTOH, if we go in without an upgrade at #2 defenseman, we're still a playoff team and still have a strong shot at making a run.

I'm gonna disagree with you there. If our second pairing is Vish and O'Donnell, I don't think we make the playoffs, whether or not Jiggy or Bryz get hurt.

For better or worse, the decision has to be made before Bryz gets the opportunity to prove he's the real deal. We don't have the luxury of waiting.



I'm gonna disagree with you there. If our second pairing is Vish and O'Donnell, I don't think we make the playoffs, whether or not Jiggy or Bryz get hurt.

I agree. The only way a goalie can prove to be the real thing is if he plays, and plays a lot. We will be saying the same thing next year if Giguere stays and plays this season. As for a defensemen...I was looking at the playoff stats and the Ducks had better GAA and midpack GFA, but a 10% PPL. This will not get it done.

There has to be a possibility that a dman and Giguere can be had, but Bryzgalov needs to be given a chance to "prove" himself at some point, and that means being the #1.

I know. Kudos. So did you know there were 15 other games we played....

Thanks for the insight. I thought we were one-and-done this year.


I know. One dimensional players of any stripe will fade if their not contributing in their token way. You're not saying anything different from what I said. Lupul either scores or does nothing.

Let me get this straight. Players who are pure scorers only contribute in a "token way"?


Once again, I know, but we didn't win consistently until we started outscoring our opponents. Our special teams were only average - the bare minimum to keep us in games. When the defense settled down life became a lot easier for everyone, but the team had no true teeth until we could count on someone besides Selanne and McDonald to score.

Interesting: you're willing to discount all the other, legitimate factors I cited for our slow start, but you primarily equate our success with "outscoring our opponents". So, I guess you're saying that we couldn't start winning consistently until a few players, like Lupul, started contributing in a "token way".

It's amazing, you denigrate Lupul because he's a sniper, but then turn around and say that our winning was depending on more scoring. You can't have it both ways.

I agree. The only way a goalie can prove to be the real thing is if he plays, and plays a lot.

True, but that's a big risk to take. Because if you give him the chance and he fails, that's it, we're going to be one of those teams that seems to have everything but the goalie. And those teams rarely manage to fix things.

True, but that's a big risk to take. Because if you give him the chance and he fails, that's it, we're going to be one of those teams that seems to have everything but the goalie. And those teams rarely manage to fix things.

Yes, but at some point he has to be given the chance...there is no other way.

Yes, but at some point he has to be given the chance...there is no other way.

Why does he have to be given the chance? This isn't a pee wee team where we're trying to make sure everyone gets to skate. If what's best for the team means he doesn't get a chance in Anaheim, then tough, and good for him if he can go elsewhere and prove he's not just another highly touted backup who can't cut the mustard as a starter.

Why does he have to be given the chance? This isn't a pee wee team where we're trying to make sure everyone gets to skate. If what's best for the team means he doesn't get a chance in Anaheim, then tough, and good for him if he can go elsewhere and prove he's not just another highly touted backup who can't cut the mustard as a starter.

You and I both know that he is projected to be the future #1. What is the realistic chance that Giguere is signed next year if he is not traded? Not real good. Why did we go through all the trouble with Russia and him coming back to NOT give him a chance? That doesnt make sense.

You and I both know that he is projected to be the future #1.

Why's that? It's not like he's 10 years younger than Giguere. It's also not like he's clearly supplanted Giguere with his play.

What is the realistic chance that Giguere is signed next year if he is not traded? Not real good.

If we can't re-sign Giguere, then yeah, Bryzgalov looks to be the starter ... but that's AFTER this next season. I see no reason to risk a whole season for the sake of giving Bryzgalov his shot. If you really think Giguere's gone, then trade him at the deadline, when some teams will be in panic mode seeing their seasons falling apart.

Why did we go through all the trouble with Russia and him coming back to NOT give him a chance? That doesnt make sense.

We went through the trouble because we had no other viable options at backup goaltender, short of throwing an undrafted rookie like Michael Wall right into the fire. Plus whether we decide to give him a chance as #1 or not he's still a reasonable NHL asset, no need to throw it away for nothing.

For better or worse, the decision has to be made before Bryz gets the opportunity to prove he's the real deal. We don't have the luxury of waiting.

Why don't we have the luxury? As far as I'm concerned having these two guys IS a luxury. If you look at this season where the two of them split most of the season, that appeared to work. If Bryz really wants to be a starter, which he's not yet, than he needs to take his chances and earn it. He hasn't done that yet. He came in when Jiggy was hurt and had a good streak. We dominated Colorado, yes Bryz was good, but he wasn't the only reason we swept them. Am I the only one who saw that he was human in the WCF? The last I recall Jiggy when in the net when it really mattered.

Why did we go through all the trouble with Russia and him coming back to NOT give him a chance? That doesnt make sense.

What trouble? You mean the trouble that hasn't started yet? Bryz is our backup, he might be our starter one day, but if he wants to go to Russia let him go to Russia. I will feel more comfortable replacing our backup rather than our starter.

Why don't we have the luxury?

Because if we go into the season with Giguere, it will be too late to use his salary towards acquiring a quality defenseman as a free agent. Hello? What are we talking about?

What trouble? You mean the trouble that hasn't started yet? Bryz is our backup, he might be our starter one day, but if he wants to go to Russia let him go to Russia. I will feel more comfortable replacing our backup rather than our starter.

Currently we don't have a starter or a back-up, we have two roughly equal goalies in limbo.

Overall Bryz was far more impressive in the play-offs than Giguere. How much of Giguere's performance was affected by the injury? We will never know.

Fact is that Bryz has atleast shown that he needs to be given the chance to take the no.1 spot and run. The problem is that if we wait until the season starts, we're going to miss all the UFAs because we don't have the money unless Giguere is traded. It could be that we don't have the money even after Giguere is traded depending what assets are coming back.

Because if we go into the season with Giguere, it will be too late to use his salary towards acquiring a quality defenseman as a free agent. Hello? What are we talking about?

When all is said and done with resigning players we should have 5-6 mil in cap space and that's if Burke DOESN'T cap out. We are in good shape. Plus, as much as we would all like a big name d-man like Chara, Redden, Blake or Jovonoski, we don't need any one of them. If we can get one of them, great but all we're talking about is finding someone who can bring the defensive play that Rusty had but bring a higher offensive upside. I like Willie Mitchell for the defensive aspect but for an all-round game I'd say we go for Pavel Kubina or Karlis Skrastins. We easily get one of those guys for less than 3 mil a year. That also gives us room for a forward too.

Goaltending is the most important position and we have two guys who are both itching to prove they are the go-to guy on this team. Bryz had a good playoffs, Jiggy had a good regular season. We need a good regular season before we get to the playoffs so before we see IF Bryz can handle a whole season, get Jiggy on board. Besides, Jiggy's value will be better by the deadline for a team in desperate need for a playoff goalie. Look at Roloson, there's no way Minnesota gets a 1st rounder for him if they traded him in the offseason.

Everyone needs to forget about getting a big name, 6-8 mil a year d-man. We have the best d-man in the league and his D partner is going to have a monster year. All we need is a second pair d-man, second PP unit guy. We can get that and still have both of our goalies.

Currently we don't have a starter or a back-up, we have two roughly equal goalies in limbo.

Overall Bryz was far more impressive in the play-offs than Giguere. How much of Giguere's performance was affected by the injury? We will never know.

Fact is that Bryz has atleast shown that he needs to be given the chance to take the no.1 spot and run. The problem is that if we wait until the season starts, we're going to miss all the UFAs because we don't have the money unless Giguere is traded. It could be that we don't have the money even after Giguere is traded depending what assets are coming back.

I often disagree with you, Pepper, but I think you nailed this one. Bryz was considerably "more impressive" than Jiggy during the playoffs. He's also a much cheaper alternative. Would keeping both "keepers" be the most-prudent way to go? Yes, but at what cost? We will have lost the opportunity to bid on some free agent talent and we will be moving him at a time when many teams have a need for a goalie.

If we don't "move" Jiggy now, do you think Detroit, Tampa Bay, Toronto and the other teams who a looking for a goalie are simply going to sit back and wait? They'll inquire about if Luongo, Turco, Biron, etc. and see if they can swing a deal. Maybe they'll decide that UFAs like Roloson are a better option.

I'm not saying every team will have filled their goaltending needs by the time the season starts, but many of them will. That will leave that many fewer options. And what if one of our guys plays well enough to minimize the playing time of the other? Will the number two guy complain? Will that compromise our potential return? I just think that now is the optimum time to move Jiggy.

But what I think is of little consequence. More importantly, I think that that's Burke's line of thought on the subject.

If we don't "move" Jiggy now, do you think Detroit, Tampa Bay, Toronto and the other teams who a looking for a goalie are simply going to sit back and wait? They'll inquire about if Luongo, Turco, Biron, etc. and see if they can swing a deal. Maybe they'll decide that UFAs like Roloson are a better option.

That's just the problem, there are other options for them right now, so the price they're willing to pay will be low.

I'm not saying every team will have filled their goaltending needs by the time the season starts, but many of them will. That will leave that many fewer options.

Every year at the deadline there's still a bunch of teams looking for a goalie. Teams whose offseason choice didn't work out, or teams who had a goalie injury, etc. I can't think of a single trade deadline where there weren't at least 4-6 teams desperately hoping to get a new goalie. Most settle for cheap solutions and fail, but that goes to show that the asking price for a good solution at that stage is quite high.

And what if one of our guys plays well enough to minimize the playing time of the other?

That's a good problem to have, since it probably means one of them is playing great, and we're winning a lot of games.

Will the number two guy complain? Will that compromise our potential return?

If the number two guy complains when we're winning, then he SHOULD go.

I just think that now is the optimum time to move Jiggy.

If you move him before re-signing Bryzgalov, then Bryz has you over a barrel and you might as well drop your pants and get ready. And you're gonna look even dumber if you clear cap space, but the free agents you want choose to go elsewhere.

But what I think is of little consequence. More importantly, I think that that's Burke's line of thought on the subject.

If Burke agrees with some of you folks and dumps Giguere and Bryzgalov fails, then he should be fired immediately, because he will have undone all the good things that he did. Any GM who underestimates the importance of goaltending should not have a job anywhere.

Yes, if we don't move Giguere soon, we're going to miss all the potential UFAs and players that other teams want to move. On top of that we're making the situation very confusing and far from confidence-inspiring for our goalies.

So we might find ourselves in a situation where

1) We don't find potential takers for Giguere or if we do, the return is worse

2) We miss on UFAs

3) We miss on players other teams want to move

4) We don't have a clear no.1 goalie but two confused goalies

Based on this, IMHO we should move Giguere out ASAP and maximize the return.

The only reason why we should not move Giguere is the potential refusal of Bryz to sign a reasonable longterm contract/threatening to go to Russia.

Yes it would. Bryzgalov and McKee or whoever is no better than what any number of other teams had going into last season, and most of them ended up out of the playoffs or quickly eliminated.

The two best goalies in the league were sent packing in the first two rounds.
One of the top five(Luongo) didn't even make the playoffs.

Before the playoffs started did you think teams led by Bryzgalov, Roloson, Ward, and Miller would be the last 4 standing? where are your elite goalies at? Two of those teams had no problem handing over the reigns to their young goalies, why can't the Ducks do that? You think Bryzgalov or Giguere will be happy not being the clear cut #1?

Ah, I see, so if someone's hurt, that's it, eh? I guess if you were running the Sabres about 10 years ago, you'd have dumped Hasek because Shields came in and played great in the playoffs while Hasek was hurt/whining.
Yeah because Giguere was as good as Hasek. posting 3 straight years with a .930 save percentage including 1 year with a sub 2 GAA...Gigueres not in that class of goalies so it's really not the same.


Of course none of us thought so. OTOH, there are about 20 tandems in the league I didn't think were good enough to win a Cup with this year. I feel pretty safe in saying that my hit rate's pretty good. If you want to play the, "exceptions," game, be my guest. Hey, maybe we can win without a point per game forward, either, just like Edmonton, right? And maybe we can win without a Norris-caliber defenseman, just like the Canes, right?

Sure you can win different ways, the Oilers had lots of scoring depth, as did the Canes.


They did have more problems than goaltending, but bad goaltending on top of other problems guaranteed a mediocre season. Besides, it's not just that they let Khabi go (which made sense given the salary), but that they didn't get a real replacement.

Do you think Bryzgalov/Mason Bryzgalov/Legace would be 'bad' goaltending? Bryzgalov had stats just as good as Giguere at a much cheaper rate and he wasn't injured when the team needed him.



Oh I see, NOW regular season performance matters, and we gloss over how he didn't do anything in the playoffs. But for Giguere, we focus on his injured playoffs. Yeah, no double standard there.
Of course it matters you have to perform in the regular season too, Giguere was up and down with injuries/dehydration mixed in with great stretches. But how many times did he have to stand on his head after the Olympics? Fact is Giguere didn't have to carry this team like 2003 because the team in front is better, if we can improve the team in front and get near equal production from Bryzgalov why not do it? eventually you have to give this guy the reigns.



Not anymore they won't. So why not advocate dumping them?
Because they fill needs where we still have holes.



If Bryzgalov wants a big raise after a decent but unspectacular playoff, plus one season as an NHL backup, then to give him the big raise and dump Giguere for salary reasons is, frankly, a stupid plan, both from a cap and a hockey perspective.

Bryzgalovs play was alot better than decent. if he wants to play games I'm fine keeping Giguere.


Like it or not, Roloson was an all-star last full season, and was a big part of getting Minny to the WCF the year before that. Markannen's nothing special of course, but there's a big difference between being thrown in to win a few games, and having to win 4 rounds. Gerbs was IMO the best backup in the league when he played for us. Ward was one of the best goalie prospects in hockey.
Roloson played like crap this year until the playoffs started, all he had to do was play good, not great.


But fine, let's say you want to argue that any of those guys was an unknown before the season. But look at how many teams went with similar solutions and failed! Why are you picking the two teams that are the exceptions, and not all those teams like LA, Vancouver, etc whose similarly iffy solutions failed miserably?

Vancouver knew Cloutier sucked.
LA had alot bigger problems than Garon.



Honestly, what on earth has sold you so convincingly on Bryzgalov? Were you this sold on Brian Boucher when he had that long shutout streak in the playoffs a few years ago? If you dump Giguere and Bryzgalov turns out like that, we are DEAD.

Hey sometimes you have to make hard decisions, fact is neither of these guys will be happy backing up from this point forward so you have to make a decision do you not?

The problem is we do not know if Bryz can handle a whole season. We know that Jiggy can, he's done it for five years now, but Bryz has had one year as a backup. He was good in the first two rounds but average in the WCF. I don't feel six great games garners handing him the #1 job. He has to earn that spot, be it in Camp or through the course of the season but he has to take that spot from Jiggy that hasn't happened yet.

The money thing is really being exaggerated. The big question on how we were going to move forward was how much Teemu was going to get. Now that that's settled it's clear that we will be able to resign everybody affordably. We're at about 24 mil right now. I figure 5-6 mil is needed for the proper improvements to this team so if Burke is capping at 40 that leaves 10 mil to resign Lupes, Mac, Kunie, Vish, Fridge and Bryz. Lupes and Mac might combine for 4.5-6 mil so I feel we have enough money to bring everyone in cheap. We've got the money, trading Jiggy is not necessary at this point.

It's a win-win situation havng both of them on the team. They both want to be #1 and they'll both come out and bring it. I don't know about you but having two guys that want to win that badly is good thing.

The problem is we do not know if Bryz can handle a whole season. We know that Jiggy can, he's done it for five years now, but Bryz has had one year as a backup. He was good in the first two rounds but average in the WCF. I don't feel six great games garners handing him the #1 job. He has to earn that spot, be it in Camp or through the course of the season but he has to take that spot from Jiggy that hasn't happened yet.

The money thing is really being exaggerated. The big question on how we were going to move forward was how much Teemu was going to get. Now that that's settled it's clear that we will be able to resign everybody affordably. We're at about 24 mil right now. I figure 5-6 mil is needed for the proper improvements to this team so if Burke is capping at 40 that leaves 10 mil to resign Lupes, Mac, Kunie, Vish, Fridge and Bryz. Lupes and Mac might combine for 4.5-6 mil so I feel we have enough money to bring everyone in cheap. We've got the money, trading Jiggy is not necessary at this point.

It's a win-win situation havng both of them on the team. They both want to be #1 and they'll both come out and bring it. I don't know about you but having two guys that want to win that badly is good thing.

I'm not sure I follow your math. (Maybe it's just me.) First, when you say you "figure 5-6 mil is needed for the proper improvements", what exactly are you planning on getting for that 5-6 mil?

If Lupul and Andy Mac come in at a combined $6 mil--which is the higher end of your range, but probably more realistic than that $.5 mil figure---that leaves 4 mil to sign Kunitz, Vish, Fedorok and Bryzgalov. Do you really think there's any way to sign those four for a total of $4 mil?

The two best goalies in the league were sent packing in the first two rounds.
One of the top five(Luongo) didn't even make the playoffs.

Before the playoffs started did you think teams led by Bryzgalov, Roloson, Ward, and Miller would be the last 4 standing? where are your elite goalies at?

In that case, why even bother with Bryz? Let him go too, hand over the reigns to McKee and Wall, save millions. After all, they might turn out just as good.

You keep using guys like Ward as examples, but to me, the way he and the other guys played that just further proves how important goaltending is. You take it to mean that it's less important, but if anything it's just the opposite. Because in the past twenty years, only three rookie goalies have come out of nowhere like Ward. But what about the Fichauds, the Bouchers, the Careys, the Lachers of the league? For every Ward or Miller, I can name DOZENS of similarly highly-regarded youngsters who never amounted to more than journeyman status. Why are you so sure Bryz is one of the few in the first category, and not one of the many in the latter?

I will admit, it's not like Brodeur and Hasek and Roy etc. all had great playoffs every single year; the odds are better though if you have one of them than if you don't (and I suspect Ward will join them on that level for the next decade or so). And if you're thinking there's another Cam Ward out there and that we'll be lucky enough to be the ones to end up with him, then you're a bigger gambler than I.

Two of those teams had no problem handing over the reigns to their young goalies, why can't the Ducks do that? You think Bryzgalov or Giguere will be happy not being the clear cut #1?

Because I don't think Bryz is as good a prospect as Ward was.

Yeah because Giguere was as good as Hasek. posting 3 straight years with a .930 save percentage including 1 year with a sub 2 GAA...Gigueres not in that class of goalies so it's really not the same.

No, Giguere's simply been a very very good netminder for as long as he's been in Anaheim. You know he's not going to suck.

Sure you can win different ways, the Oilers had lots of scoring depth, as did the Canes.

Yeah, but one different way that never works is trying to cut corners in goal. Whether you get lucky and find the best rookie goalie since Brodeur, or you go with a proven solution, doesn't matter. You need goaltending.

Do you think Bryzgalov/Mason Bryzgalov/Legace would be 'bad' goaltending?

Bad, no. But honestly, if you're an objective fan of another team, are you really going to be worried about such a tandem?

Bryzgalov had stats just as good as Giguere at a much cheaper rate and he wasn't injured when the team needed him.

Lot easier to stay healthy when you're not playing. As for stats, well Aebischer put up great stats as a backup, and Schwab used to put up BETTER numbers than Brodeur. It doesn't mean their teams wouldn't have missed a beat without the starter.

Of course it matters you have to perform in the regular season too, Giguere was up and down with injuries/dehydration mixed in with great stretches. But how many times did he have to stand on his head after the Olympics? Fact is Giguere didn't have to carry this team like 2003 because the team in front is better,

[QUOTE]if we can improve the team in front and get near equal production from Bryzgalov why not do it? eventually you have to give this guy the reigns.

And if Bryz turns out no better than Aebischer, then you can kiss any Cup hopes goodbye for the next few years, unless you get lucky with someone else.

Because they fill needs where we still have holes.

With the cap, EVERYONE will have holes. Even Carolina ... they don't really have a superstar defenseman. You're going to have to pick and choose where you're going to take chances on going with something merely decent. I'm just saying goal is not the place to do it.

Bryzgalovs play was alot better than decent. if he wants to play games I'm fine keeping Giguere.

He looked like any other number of very good backups in the league over the years. There's nothing that stood out to me that made me think he's going to be a particularly special starter. I take the same attitude towards you guys who buy into Bryz being just fine as a #1, as I did towards Avs fans who said they wouldn't need anything better than Aebischer, or Detroit fans who figured Legace was good enough to win with, or Sens fans who told us Lalime was all they needed behind such a powerhouse team, or Flyers fans who thought Boucher was a surefire #1, etc..

Roloson played like crap this year until the playoffs started, all he had to do was play good, not great.

He had a couple rough games right after the trade, but to say he played like crap this year is a flat out lie. Heck, he stole a couple games down the stretch, which if he hadn't Edmonton doesn't even make it to the playoffs!

Vancouver knew Cloutier sucked.

The guy's regular season numbers always looked good, so at least you can say he's a solid #1 regular season goalie. At this point, that's more than you can say about Bryz. All we know about Bryz is that he can look fine when the team in front of him is dominating play, and even in that regard we have a small sample size.

LA had alot bigger problems than Garon.

He wasn't the solution either. Just like Cechmanek before him.

Fact is, there's a heck of a lot of teams out there who went with "maybe" solutions in goal. You keep pointing to the handful that had their solution pay off, and ignoring that the odds say that it's more likely to end in disaster.

Hey sometimes you have to make hard decisions, fact is neither of these guys will be happy backing up from this point forward so you have to make a decision do you not?

The Ducks don't HAVE to make the decision if they don't want to. There's enough cap space to sign what we need without messing with a good tandem. And if it comes down to it, and you really have to decide on a starter, odds say you go with the guy who's shown he can do it for a half decade, not the one who's yet to play a full season. If Bryz goes somewhere and becomes a Kiprusoff so be it, but let someone else take that gamble.

I'm not sure I follow your math. (Maybe it's just me.) First, when you say you "figure 5-6 mil is needed for the proper improvements", what exactly are you planning on getting for that 5-6 mil?


If we can get Langenbrunner cheap (1.75-2 mil) than I'd throw 3 mil at Pavel Kubina otherwise I'd sign Willie Mitchell or Karlis Skrastins or Filip Kuba for 2-3 mil. Viola!

If Lupul and Andy Mac come in at a combined $6 mil--which is the higher end of your range, but probably more realistic than that $.5 mil figure---that leaves 4 mil to sign Kunitz, Vish, Fedorok and Bryzgalov. Do you really think there's any way to sign those four for a total of $4 mil?

Kunie-1 mil, Vish and Bryz - 1.5 and Fridge .500. Okay the four of them for 4.5 mil. The three signings so far tell me this team has bought into each other and are taking conssesions to keep this team together and bring in quality players.

If we can get Langenbrunner cheap (1.75-2 mil) than I'd throw 3 mil at Pavel Kubina otherwise I'd sign Willie Mitchell or Karlis Skrastins or Filip Kuba for 2-3 mil. Viola!



Kunie-1 mil, Vish and Bryz - 1.5 and Fridge .500. Okay the four of them for 4.5 mil. The three signings so far tell me this team has bought into each other and are taking conssesions to keep this team together and bring in quality players.

I think you're looking at a lot more than that for Vish and Bryz. Do you think Bryz will sign for substantially less than Kunitz?

I think the remaining seven players (excepting Friesen) from last year's roster could be signed for $11-million easily, bringing the total to $35-36-million for 20 players. The questions then are:

1. Two or three additional players?
2. Capable, value players (Smid? Konopka? etc.) or big tickets? If the latter, one or two?
3. How much more than Burke's already-mentioned $38-million will the Ducks go?

I don't think dealing Jiggy will save a significant of money, and the risks are too high. Teams must build strength from the goal line forward.

I think Burke wants to clear up the situation as soon as possible. He mentioned somethin in the paper about wanting to keep both but neither wanting to be a backup... It may work through 1/3 of the season, but your right, long term that could turn from great competition to a poison in the lockeroom.

I actually think that if we don't get a good return for Giguere I would consider trading Bryz. Yeah he's big and great, but ultimately we have to look at what's best for the team... it takes talent to get talent and I want another stud defenseman.

I'd want something pretty sweet back for Bryz, but I think Giguere wants to stay here and re-signs for less than he's making now (say 2.5-3 mill), i'd be fine with that.

In that case, why even bother with Bryz? Let him go too, hand over the reigns to McKee and Wall, save millions. After all, they might turn out just as good.[quote]
Yeah because McKee and Wall have done all they can in the minors and helped take a team to a WCF and were also important parts of making the playoffs in the first place..

[quote]You keep using guys like Ward as examples, but to me, the way he and the other guys played that just further proves how important goaltending is. You take it to mean that it's less important, but if anything it's just the opposite.
I take it to mean you don't need to put alot of money into one goalie if another can give you similar numbers at a cheaper rate so you can improve other areas.

Because in the past twenty years, only three rookie goalies have come out of nowhere like Ward. But what about the Fichauds, the Bouchers, the Careys, the Lachers of the league? For every Ward or Miller, I can name DOZENS of similarly highly-regarded youngsters who never amounted to more than journeyman status. Why are you so sure Bryz is one of the few in the first category, and not one of the many in the latter?

What makes you think Bryzgalov will be a Fichaud or a Boucher?

I will admit, it's not like Brodeur and Hasek and Roy etc. all had great playoffs every single year; the odds are better though if you have one of them than if you don't (and I suspect Ward will join them on that level for the next decade or so). And if you're thinking there's another Cam Ward out there and that we'll be lucky enough to be the ones to end up with him, then you're a bigger gambler than I.

My primary point is, you can get by on just 'good' goaltending if the team in front is good enough. That's all the Oilers needed because they had such tremendous depth, same for the Canes up front. If Burke does not invision Giguere as his clear cut #1 I don't think he wants to invest 10 percent of the payroll in him.



Because I don't think Bryz is as good a prospect as Ward was.
It's not like Bryz had come out of nowhere, he's been pretty highly regarded for a while.



No, Giguere's simply been a very very good netminder for as long as he's been in Anaheim. You know he's not going to suck.
He wasn't that great in 03/04, he had stretches this past year where he couldn't stop a steel ball.


Bad, no. But honestly, if you're an objective fan of another team, are you really going to be worried about such a tandem?
Go poll the boards here and ask them how much they fear our team with Giguere in net.


Lot easier to stay healthy when you're not playing. As for stats, well Aebischer put up great stats as a backup, and Schwab used to put up BETTER numbers than Brodeur. It doesn't mean their teams wouldn't have missed a beat without the starter.

except Schwab didn't play a whole lot, and Aebischer was pretty good before the lockout. Bryzgalov played sensational goal in the playoffs and filled in very well while Giguere had injuries/on ice issues.



And if Bryz turns out no better than Aebischer, then you can kiss any Cup hopes goodbye for the next few years, unless you get lucky with someone else.
Whos' to say we'll win a cup with Giguere?



With the cap, EVERYONE will have holes. Even Carolina ... they don't really have a superstar defenseman. You're going to have to pick and choose where you're going to take chances on going with something merely decent. I'm just saying goal is not the place to do it.

and this is a place where we can take a chance to improve the rest of the club.


He looked like any other number of very good backups in the league over the years. There's nothing that stood out to me that made me think he's going to be a particularly special starter. I take the same attitude towards you guys who buy into Bryz being just fine as a #1, as I did towards Avs fans who said they wouldn't need anything better than Aebischer, or Detroit fans who figured Legace was good enough to win with, or Sens fans who told us Lalime was all they needed behind such a powerhouse team, or Flyers fans who thought Boucher was a surefire #1, etc..

It's not like Bryzgalov is replacing Roy here, Giguere in my mind is in the second tier of goalies. Like i've said a hundred times if he's going to be the #1 fine keep him. if he's not it's just going to create problems. Bryzgalov doesn't want to backup, Giguere doesn't want to backup and we don't want to it to get to the point where the lockerroom starts taking sides.




The guy's regular season numbers always looked good, so at least you can say he's a solid #1 regular season goalie. At this point, that's more than you can say about Bryz. All we know about Bryz is that he can look fine when the team in front of him is dominating play, and even in that regard we have a small sample size.

How will we ever find out if Bryz can do it if he's not given the ball? he's shown us he can play at a high level. How come for Bryz it's he looks fine when the team in front dominates, but for Giguere he's so great? they both played behind the same team and put up better numbers, with Bryzgalov actually playing well in the playoffs.



He wasn't the solution either. Just like Cechmanek before him.

So? the team in front of him played like garbage alot of the time, not much he can do.


The Ducks don't HAVE to make the decision if they don't want to. There's enough cap space to sign what we need without messing with a good tandem. And if it comes down to it, and you really have to decide on a starter, odds say you go with the guy who's shown he can do it for a half decade, not the one who's yet to play a full season. If Bryz goes somewhere and becomes a Kiprusoff so be it, but let someone else take that gamble.

If you want to avoid controversey yes you have to make a decision. We only have enough room to sign 1 impact player tops, and we'll be relying on all of the kids to improve, Mac/Selanne repeating what they did as well. I'm telling you neither of these guys will be happy not being the #1 guy.

I think we're going around in circles now, but just one last thing ...

What makes you think Bryzgalov will be a Fichaud or a Boucher?


Because the odds say so. Bryzgalov's not the first guy to play well as a backup, and then do well for a week or two in the playoffs. You're willing to bet that he'll be one of the small percentage of exceptions where it turns out it's not a flash in the pan. Me, I'm going with the percentages.

It may be that gambling on trading Giguere makes sense on a lot of levels, but to me the downside if you lose that gamble is too great. I've seen way too many teams with great forwards and defensemen who were never able to fix their problems in goal, because neither rebuilding teams nor playoff teams typically sell off proven goalies. Well, that is unless you're part of the contingent of Ducks fans who think merely good goaltending wins Cups. Last I checked, though, Cam Ward was brilliant and won a damn Conn Smythe.

I think you're looking at a lot more than that for Vish and Bryz. Do you think Bryz will sign for substantially less than Kunitz?

I meant 1.5 each, sorry.

Another thing, everyone assumes that these two guys sharing the net will bring contraversy. Jiggy is our starter, there's no sharing unless he faulters and Bryz steps up. Besides, they pretty much did that for long stretches this year and look how that turned out. This worked very well in Minnesota three years ago. They proved it doesn't work very long but when you have an established starter and a backup itching to prove himself, then it works. We could easily have the best goalie tandem next year and everyone wants to break it up because Jiggy makes middle of the pack money.

Let me get this straight. Players who are pure scorers only contribute in a "token way"?

No. Players who have only one means of contributing make a token contribution. Joffrey Lupul only does one thing. He's part of the reason we can't roll four lines unless we're far ahead. Among other things.

Interesting: you're willing to discount all the other, legitimate factors I cited for our slow start, but you primarily equate our success with "outscoring our opponents". So, I guess you're saying that we couldn't start winning consistently until a few players, like Lupul, started contributing in a "token way".

Wasn't interesting enough I guess. Lupul did his Lupul thing all season long. Didn't get better or worse. Our secondary scoring was by committee - a group including Perry, Getzlaf, Niedermayer, Beauchemin, and of course, Lupul.

I don't really have to go into the mechanics of outscoring the opponent, do I? Surely you knew the details I was implying by that phrase and are just being obtuse.

It's amazing, you denigrate Lupul because he's a sniper

No, I denigrate Lupul because he's a one dimensional sissy. I love snipers, but you can't just cherrypick, hide on the perimeter, and wait for your chance to snipe. Then you're not helping.

but then turn around and say that our winning was depending on more scoring. You can't have it both ways.

We didn't start winning until we started scoring consistently. It's pretty obvious. Like I already said, our special teams were average - in the middle third of the league. Our defense was top notch but that didn't start until we started spending a bunch of time in the opposition zone and converting our chances.

As for having it both ways....I'm not trying to. You're not getting it or I'm not explaining myself very well. I'm very tired right now so I'm not going come down hard on that comment, but I will say it looks like you made a lame attempt at a strawman argument.

What if Giguere doesn't want to sign with us after next season and we lose him to UFA for nothing??

What if Giguere doesn't want to sign with us after next season and we lose him to UFA for nothing??

We will overpay another UFA goaltender :)

If we can get Langenbrunner cheap (1.75-2 mil) than I'd throw 3 mil at Pavel Kubina otherwise I'd sign Willie Mitchell or Karlis Skrastins or Filip Kuba for 2-3 mil. Viola!




No way Langenbruner or Willie Mitchell sign that cheap...no way...Langenbruner will get around 3-3.5 and Mitchell will get 3.5 prob.

I don't really have to go into the mechanics of outscoring the opponent, do I? Surely you knew the details I was implying by that phrase and are just being obtuse.

No, I denigrate Lupul because he's a one dimensional sissy. I love snipers, but you can't just cherrypick, hide on the perimeter, and wait for your chance to snipe. Then you're not helping.

We didn't start winning until we started scoring consistently. It's pretty obvious. Like I already said, our special teams were average - in the middle third of the league. Our defense was top notch but that didn't start until we started spending a bunch of time in the opposition zone and converting our chances.

As for having it both ways....I'm not trying to. You're not getting it or I'm not explaining myself very well. I'm very tired right now so I'm not going come down hard on that comment, but I will say it looks like you made a lame attempt at a strawman argument.

Your condescending tone is both wearying. Just because I don't buy what you're saying doesn't mean I don't get it.

I don't think your contention that "our special teams were average". While I don't have the statistics in front of me---and, even if I did, I really don't have the time to dissect them---my recollection is that the Ducks penalty kill was either theworst or next to worst in the NHL early in the season. It was somewhere in the 75-78% range. So, even if overall our special teams were average, they were far above average from the point when we started winning.

Employing your logic, the Ducks were just an average team this year because they had the twelfth best record in the NHL. Obviously, they were better than that at the end of the season but the slow start brought down their "average"---just as the slow start for the penalty kill statistically made it appear to be just "average".

I'll give you the last word. Feel free to bloviate.

No way Langenbruner or Willie Mitchell sign that cheap...no way...Langenbruner will get around 3-3.5 and Mitchell will get 3.5 prob.

Langenbrunner only made 1.65 this year and Mitchell only 1.35. I think Langenbrunner will take a modest raise to play with Scotty again and 3 mil for Mitchell is a good contract. I think players are going to want to play here because of what we did this year and wanting to play with Scotty and Teemu. Plus we have tons of good young players, this is an attractive team to play for in my opinion.

Langenbrunner only made 1.65 this year and Mitchell only 1.35. I think Langenbrunner will take a modest raise to play with Scotty again and 3 mil for Mitchell is a good contract. I think players are going to want to play here because of what we did this year and wanting to play with Scotty and Teemu. Plus we have tons of good young players, this is an attractive team to play for in my opinion.
Why on earth would Langenbrunner go so cheap just to 'play with Scotty'? Guys want to get paid, they have families you know. if he can get 3 mil elsewhere he won't come here cheap.

Why on earth would Langenbrunner go so cheap just to 'play with Scotty'? Guys want to get paid, they have families you know. if he can get 3 mil elsewhere he won't come here cheap.

Because guys want to play with the best, especially when since they were teammates. I really don't think he'll get more than 3 mil and if it comes down to playing for a winner, guys take less to win. I dunno, Langenbrunner's the one I really want but there's a couple other who can do the job. If we can pry Grier from Buffalo I could be happy with that. He'd be way cheaper too.

Grier is a 3rd liner with limited offense. I just don't understand why on earth we need a player like that, we already have Pahlsson, Rob N, Kunitz, Marchant + Portland crew to play on our 3rd line.

Because Grier competes, skates hard and plays tough. He'd real cheap and if we are looking at things logically, we only need him to fill Friesen's role and I feel he's alomst a carbon copy of Jeff. (obvious physical comparissons aside) Yeah it would be cheaper to fill that spot with a minor leaguer but Burke went out and got Friesen because he's a veteren with championship experience. Grier hasn't won a championship but Buffalo got awfully close. It's not like Burke would have to break the bank to get this guy either, no more than 1.5 mil.

We have Marchant and Rob N. on 3rd line making 4.5M in total. Do we want a 6M 3rd line (on paper)?

I'd much rather see Kunitz there and use the money on a d-man like Mitchell or McKee (depending how much money we have left)

Hey, we agree on something, I want Mitchell too! How about that.

It doesn't really matter how much a particular line would cost because Grier would be cheaper than Friesen (assuming he signs for 1.5, Friesen made 2.3). He'd also be a key PKer which we need since Hedstrom is gone.

Hey, we agree on something, I want Mitchell too! How about that.

It doesn't really matter how much a particular line would cost because Grier would be cheaper than Friesen (assuming he signs for 1.5, Friesen made 2.3). He'd also be a key PKer which we need since Hedstrom is gone.

Why Mitchell? Id rather take the risk of Kim Jonsson then bring in ANOTHER defensive dman.

Why Mitchell? Id rather take the risk of Kim Jonsson then bring in ANOTHER defensive dman.

Because it's more important for our back line to be good defensively than to score goals. Scotty and Beach will prove a lot of offense and our sophmore's should have big seasons. No reason to take a risk on anybody.

Because it's more important for our back line to be good defensively than to score goals. Scotty and Beach will prove a lot of offense and our sophmore's should have big seasons. No reason to take a risk on anybody.

Every defensemen we have is responsible in our zone already...I dont think the defense is suddenly going to collapse after Salei walks.

I know I keep harping on this but the defense is not the reason we were eliminated, the ppl was! What is Willie Mitchell going to do to help this problem? He had 10 points last year! Niedermayer and Beauchemin cannot be the only dmen that are able to produce on the ppl, it will fail that way.

As I look at it now I think Johnsson would be a great addition...yes there is a risk becuase of the concussion but he is a good PPL QB and is good in his own end. I think he would be much more valueable to the Ducks than Mitchell would be...

Every defensemen we have is responsible in our zone already...I dont think the defense is suddenly going to collapse after Salei walks.

I know I keep harping on this but the defense is not the reason we were eliminated, the ppl was! What is Willie Mitchell going to do to help this problem? He had 10 points last year! Niedermayer and Beauchemin cannot be the only dmen that are able to produce on the ppl, it will fail that way.

As I look at it now I think Johnsson would be a great addition...yes there is a risk becuase of the concussion but he is a good PPL QB and is good in his own end. I think he would be much more valueable to the Ducks than Mitchell would be...

It wasn't our d-men's fault our PP didn't work, it was the whole system. We held the zone a lot and took lots of shots but most of them were blocked. We need to work our forwards to the front of the net and generate that way.

If you look at the top 50 PPG scorers this year only two are d-men (Phanuef 16 and McCabe 13) Now I know a good PP d-man racks up assists but among the league leaders, most are unattainable or too expensive. I would rather not have a guy with concussion problems and would like a guy who can at least help us keep pucks out.

Let's worry about getting back to the playoffs first before we worry about what failed us against Edmonton (which I feal was primarily rookie mistakes). The most important roles for our d-men are for them to be responsible in their own zone and capable of making a great first pass (Rusty's two best attributes).

It wasn't our d-men's fault our PP didn't work, it was the whole system. We held the zone a lot and took lots of shots but most of them were blocked. We need to work our forwards to the front of the net and generate that way.

If you look at the top 50 PPG scorers this year only two are d-men (Phanuef 16 and McCabe 13) Now I know a good PP d-man racks up assists but among the league leaders, most are unattainable or too expensive. I would rather not have a guy with concussion problems and would like a guy who can at least help us keep pucks out.

Let's worry about getting back to the playoffs first before we worry about what failed us against Edmonton (which I feal was primarily rookie mistakes). The most important roles for our d-men are for them to be responsible in their own zone and capable of making a great first pass (Rusty's two best attributes).

Im not talking about scoring goals persay...but producing yes. Producing as in being able to run the ppl effectively. At times even Scott had problems with that becuase he doesnt shoot enough, and Beauch isnt savvy enough with the puck to be a true QB. We need someone to do that. Johnsson is responsible in the dzone and can run the ppl....Mitchell is just a Salei clone that may be a bit more effective. How do you solve the problem by interchanging items that are one and the same?

Im not talking about scoring goals persay...but producing yes. Producing as in being able to run the ppl effectively. At times even Scott had problems with that becuase he doesnt shoot enough, and Beauch isnt savvy enough with the puck to be a true QB. We need someone to do that. Johnsson is responsible in the dzone and can run the ppl....Mitchell is just a Salei clone that may be a bit more effective. How do you solve the problem by interchanging items that are one and the same?

If anything we need to bring in a forward to do that. I feel Getzlaf and Penner though will be big PP producers this year. When Getzy was on the point in the regular season, our PP was good. With a whole year of experience now I feel he'll be a lot better especially with covering the line. Penner has to be worked into the system to take advantage of his size and tough. He should have Lupes spot on the top unit. That plus a revamping of the system should be all we need.

Kim Johnsson is recovering from an injury, it's gamble to sign him.

Friesen was signed at trade deadline, his salary is irrelevant.

We have enough 3rd liners, that has never been the problem for us.

What we need is scoring line LW and a top4 d-man.

What we need is scoring line LW and a top4 d-man.

Yes, but we don't HAVE to acquire both in the offseason. I'd rather spend a little bit more on one of the two and get a better one, then rent the other one at the deadline.

Kim Johnsson is recovering from an injury, it's gamble to sign him.


If that means he comes at a discount then I'll take that gamble.

Yes, but we don't HAVE to acquire both in the offseason. I'd rather spend a little bit more on one of the two and get a better one, then rent the other one at the deadline.

I didn't mean we go out and get both now, I meant that those are far bigger needs than getting more 3rd liners for us.

I didn't mean we go out and get both now, I meant that those are far bigger needs than getting more 3rd liners for us.

Yeah, I was just kind of responding generally, because there seem to be a lot of people here who think we should try to patch all our holes immediately, which actually is less cap-efficient than doing a rental later, when you'd only have to pick up a small portion of a player's salary.

If that means he comes at a discount then I'll take that gamble.

Why? We have the money to get someone good who won't be a gamble. I personally don't care how much we spend on players as long as we get the ones we need. Having said that though I wouldn't like to have one of the really expensive ones if it means we have to trade someone away.

The one guy who could probably meet our needs in both catagories would probably Pavel Kubina. He's probably going to get 3.5-4 mil and that's a little too expensive. I mean we could get him but than we'd have no money for a forward. Mitchell, Krastins, Kuba could fit in well on this team. I'm pass on Johnsson.

Rather Kubina at 4M per year than Mitchell for 2.5M-3M

Rather Kubina at 4M per year than Mitchell for 2.5M-3M

Me too.

I think Giguere wont be traded

every team that need a clear number one is in talks with the Panthers and Giguere is further down the list of goalie that teams want.

I think Giguere wont be traded

every team that need a clear number one is in talks with the Panthers and Giguere is further down the list of goalie that teams want.

yes but not everyone is going to get Luongo...there are a lot of other teams very much interested in Giguere so I dont think that will be a reason for him not to be traded...

Rather Kubina at 4M per year than Mitchell for 2.5M-3M

Me too but I'm afraid Burke's budget for a d-man will only be 2.5-3 mil.

Me too but I'm afraid Burke's budget for a d-man will only be 2.5-3 mil.

No way...didnt Mac19 say he heard Burke was going after Chara? Dont underestimate the powers of BB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well if Bryz isn't signed in the next 24 hours I'd say this wager is about to be lost.

Yeah, I was just kind of responding generally, because there seem to be a lot of people here who think we should try to patch all our holes immediately, which actually is less cap-efficient than doing a rental later, when you'd only have to pick up a small portion of a player's salary.

This is a very good point, and maybe a reality in the new NHL. As long as a team is competitive, they may be willing to wait until the trade deadline to get the last piece or couple of pieces of the puzzle to position themselves to go deep into the playoffs. Not that this wasn't the case in previous years, but with the with the cap limitations, it might be more important now.

So much for the friendly wager, KS!