Juventus' way

So, here you go.

Most of you probably already know my opinions on how things have been working for a long time in serie A…
For the (high) percentage of you thinking I was just biased against Juve, I was making things up, I was at least exaggerating things, what follows could be surprising..

Here are some links to article appeared abroad in several languages, the first one sums up pretty well the situation and I would recommend to give it a reading before or after completing to read this post:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3361-2170308.html

http://www.marca.es/edicion/marca/futbol/internacional/es/desarrollo/645861.html

http://www.as.com/articulo/futbol/Moggi/pidio/Maseratti/amigo/poderoso/dasftb/20060505dasdaiftb_58/Tes/

http://www.equipe.fr/Football/20060505_121832Dev.html


It also provides some nice insight about the Ibrahimovic’s transfer…

There is a passage that needs a specification though:
“For most of its history, the “Old Lady of Turin” saw itself as the epitome of style, class and probity, thanks to the guiding hand of the Agnelli family’s patriarch, the aristocratic and dashing Gianni, who died in January 2003. But that image…”
I bolded those two words to underline the difference between ‘saw itself’ and ‘was considered’, to point out that supposed image was maybe drunk abroad, but not by most in Italy already before Moggi's tenure..
(previous 1980 stakes scandal when they avoided relegation being just an example )


As a premise, the recordings appeared on the Italian papers so far are said to be only a small part of hundreds of pages on the enquirers’ desk.
Parts of those leaked recordings can be interpreted in different ways imo, others seem quite frankly clear enough..i will limit to translate the ones I find more significant..(I tried to do it literally, as far as it is possible considering it is mostly slang..)



Some of the leaked recordings:


Giraudo (Juve’s administrator): «...do you know how it’s going there in Sportilia (referees’ center)?»…..
Moggi: (Juve sport director) "With Gigi (Pairetto) it all works great"


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moggi: “Oh, in Messina send me Consolo and Battaglia (linesmen). With Cassarà, ok?".
Pairetto (joint head of the Italian referees’ association and vice-chairman of Uefa’s referees’ commission): "Done already."

Moggi: "In Livorno Rocchi, eh?".
Pairetto: "In Livorno Rocchi, yes".

Moggi:"And at ‘Berlusconi Cup’ Pieri, be sure of it".
Pairetto: "We still have to do it".
Moggi: "We’ll do it later, ok".

Of course the referee for that game in San Siro will be Pieri.

......

Moggi: «hello»
Pairetto: «Hey, i know you have forgotten about me, while i’ve remembered about you.»
Moggi: «c’mon..»
Pairetto: «Eh, i put a great referee for the game in Amsterdam».
Moggi: «Who is?»
Pairetto: «Meier»
Moggi: «great!»
Pairetto: «you see, i remember of you even if you by now…>>
Moggi: «Don’t break (my balls), you’ll see, when i come back, then i’ll tell you (you’ll see) if i forgot about you.. »

……

man: «Casa Agnelli, good morning»
Moggi: «i’m Moggi, good morning. I would need Nalla»

Nalla: «Ciao Luciano»
Moggi: «i would need, quickly, cause since we have to do...»
Nalla: «Yes»
Moggi: «for an important friend, (we are in need ) of a Maserati»
Nalla: «yes»
Moggi: «4 doors»
Nalla: «4 doors?»
Moggi: «Yes. We give you one week, ten days, ok? »
Nalla: «Ok»

………….

Enzo (?): «hello?»
Pairetto: «Enzo?»
Enzo: «Ciao Gigi»
Pairetto: «Listen, I wanted to tell you, the car, i already have it basically»
Enzo: «Which?»
Pairetto: «So, when we want to go to take it there is the Macerati available»
Enzo: «c’mon»
Pairetto: «Yes, so..»
Enzo: << Jesus»
Pairetto: «Now when i come back tomorrow i’ll call the Royal House (Family?)».

Note: the timings of these conversations are in this right succession.. the dialogues were hours or a day apart…

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Just for curiosity, this one somehow suggests what was going on during the famous transfer of Cannavaro from Inter to Juve in exchange for Carini..


23/08/2004 ore 11.38
man : «Ooh!»
Moggi: «Rigo!»
man: «tell me dear»
Moggi: «so we can do it even today: make call fai Ghelzi (actually is Ghelfi, Inter vicepresident), tell him he wants out»
man (Cannavaro?) : «How?»
Moggi: «Make call Ghelzi ... how is his name, tall brindellone... the president!»
man (Cannavaro) : «Facchetti»
Moggi: «Facchetti. Make call ghelzi, he will do it. Tell him: see, i want out cause the coach doesn’t consider me and stop.»

man: «Mmh»
Moggi: «If not you know what happens?»
man: «Mmh»
Moggi: «that winning tomorrow.....»
man: «Mmh»
Moggi: «They have more defensemen for the games (...) Explicit, you tell him: see Ghelzi, the player wants to go, don’t break our balls» (...)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Giraudo to Moggi (about referee Dattilo.. coming up next week Juventus- Udinese) :
«if he is smart, he cut half (make suspend) of udinese team »

Eventually, I think there were a red (Jankulovsky) and 8 yellows among Udinese's players..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fabio Baldas is currently the replays reviewer (about games’ disputed episodes) in a popular trash tv program. Interesting to remember he was as well the referees’ chief during the 97/98 season, arguably the most blatantly fixed one ever (Inter of a 100% Ronaldo were the victims) .

Moggi to Baldas: «You have to save Bertini, Dattilo e Trefoloni. On Milan you can beat as much as you want».
Baldas to Moggi: «What about Messina?»
Moggi to Baldas: «Messina down»

This (together with other conversation with a journalist) somehow explain some unbelievable comments by some media and give an idea about a kind of conspiracy of silence on the whole argument..

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Moggi (speaking of a national referees’ commission executive): "we need to take her out of there".
Mazzini (deputy chief executive of the Italian FA): "she is going around saying that she is going through legals, that if they won’t give her everything she will make a mess out of it ".
Moggi "I don’t know what she has been doing there, but let’s not talk about it by phone..”
……….
Moggi : "He (Carraro) doesn’t have to know anything, he doesn’t know anything about this"
……
Mazzini (fearing consequences from woman’s blackmail) "She wants a nice career, otherwise she will talk to newspapers”
……
Moggi (upset, speaking about squarrel between the referees’ chiefs Pairetto and Bergamo ) "if they keep on i’ll go to Carraro and make him sack both of them. If they drive me mad I make both go.. they would go home before the time…” better “ I’ll make Bergamo go..”
Mazzini, afraid: "Pay attention to newspapers, she protected herself and if she talks.."

At the end that woman (G.F.) was removed from her previous position and placed in a different office of the federation.

So, Carraro (president of Italian soccer federation) looks to be out of this particular thing, but this would suggest he usually does what Moggi asks for..

Breaking news: rumours are that Carraro is FINALLY going to resign..


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moggi laughs with Giraudo: "I’ve given a bad scolding to Bergamo (the other referees’ chief), he is so guilty!".
Then he calls Bergamo: "Tuesday you'll have dinner with me and Giraudo? I have to tell you what Carraro told to me, he is angry with you."
....
Moggi tries to keep him quiet: "Calm down, i talked with him, it’s gone now, c’mon... I will fix it, don’t worry, i’ve already fixed everything. Let’s see Tuesday at 7,30 at Antonio (Giraudo)‘s home".

From repubblica.it (at the moment don’t have direct link anymore):
The supper was consummated on Tuesday, September 21st, the day before Sampdoria-Juventus. It seems Pairetto was there as well: at 22,36 he calls his son (you can even heard Moggi’s voice back) to have a read of the (Pairetto: )" Saturday-Sunday schedule", 4th stage of serie A. Obviously the two chiefs are talking about that with the Juve’s two top executives.

Dondarini will eventually ref that game..some leaked recordings related with that game are there in the first linked article.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3361-2170308.html

---------------------------------------------------------------------

As precaution, already suspended are four referees mentioned in the recordings:
Dattilo, Dondarini, Bertini and Trefoloni.

Pairetto is replaced by Collina as delegate in UEFA referees committee.


Also, there are at least two more inquiries going on in attorney’s offices in Roma and Napoli. The latter is said to possess more hot recordings..and as hinted in the first linked article, in that one Moggi and his son are officially enquired for criminal association and sport cheat. Btw, last rumours say those hot recordings from Napoli would contain the name of referee De Santis. He is the Italian referee that was appointed to go in Germany for the WC..
He is considered one of the referees in GEA(General Athletics)’s orbit and I think I already talked on this board about how his ‘services’ must have gained his international status.. (unforgettable the goal scored by Cannavaro- back then a Parma player- he inexplicably disallowed in the dying minutes of a game that let Juventus to keep a two points advantage on Lazio before the last fatal stage. 99/00 season i think)
The Napoli’s inquiry about stakes in 2003/04 (I think) could also involve other names and teams..


After 8 years without winning, Moggi took over as Juve sport director in ’94.
Since then Juve ‘won’ the Italian title 7 times out of 12.

My easy guess is that as far as possible, Juventus’ property will try to take distances from the current management in order to make Moggi and Giraudo the only ones to pay.
As ridiculous as it could sound (they were chosen, backed up and financed by the property that will try to look uninformed about their activities..), in Italy this is the most probable outcome of this matter..
(and that of course would save their ‘titles’ and avoid relegation..
Last year Genoa was relegated from the just gained serie A to serie C cause of a very probably fixed game)

Yeah I read today in L'Equipe that Agnelli was supposedly "mad" at Moggi (yes, don't laugh) and that it'd be fired.

L'Equipe confirms Carraro resigned.

Breaking news: rumours are that Carraro is FINALLY going to resign..It's official now.. vice president Abete should be the successor.

This unfortunately should prevent a commissariamento (can't translate :help: ) of FIGC.

*edit: ops..Evilo and l'Equipe are too fast for me.

I hope Juve beats the living crap out of Milan.

I hope Juve beats the living crap out of Milan.and how is that related with this thread?

You ARE biased against Juventus! ;)

I'm not going to defend Juve here, (I'll let PK do that) but this sort of corruption occurs regularly in Italian football, from Serie A all the way to the lower levels. There is some pretty shocking stuff here though.

You ARE biased against Juventus! ;)

I'm not going to defend Juve here, (I'll let PK do that) but this sort of corruption occurs regularly in Italian football...You are saying Juve managed things this way for decades even before Moggi took over as juve SD? Maybe then i could agree.. :biglaugh:

You know I'm not against you on this Helice, but please, regarding EPO, you won't convince me Juve was the only team taking some.
I think in the 90s, every big italian team took EPO, and very soon after, teams from every big european country.

BTW, I wanted to ask, what is Carraro's defensive stand?
I read he was "sad and angry". But about what? Is he acknowledging the briberies or is he saying it wasn't true?

You are saying Juve managed things was this way for decades even before Moggi took over as juve SD? Maybe then i could agree.. :biglaugh:

Yes, actually. I'm not naive to believe that Italian teams have NOT done things in the past to influence the outcome of games. It's terrible, it shouldn't happen but it DOES happen. I've read stories about briefcases full of money and other things. It's a sad fact of Italian football. :(

Just reminded that I'd forgotten to add clubs I hate to my getting to know each other post.

You know I'm not against you on this Helice, but please, regarding EPO, you won't convince me Juve was the only team taking some.
I think in the 90s, every big italian team took EPO...I've already said i disagree adding the reasons, no need to start again to say the same things..

Yes, actually. I'm not naive to believe that Italian teams have NOT done things in the past to influence the outcome of games.It's terrible, it shouldn't happen but it DOES happen. I guess yes, especially with juve..

I've read stories about briefcases full of money and other things..Care to share?

BTW, I wanted to ask, what is Carraro's defensive stand?
I read he was "sad and angry". But about what? Is he acknowledging the briberies or is he saying it wasn't true?He is acting like he has been betrayed..
actually somehow he has been indeed, since there are leaked recordings where Mazzini talks with Moggi calling him moron while trying to **** him..
basically he is acknowledging the seriousness of the situation but he maintains he didn't know anything.. :innocent:
he is sad and angry like Italian fans, he says... :sarcasm:

reality is a bit different i guess..
He should be gone by a long time, other scandals have happened with him refusing to resign despite embarassing situations (of course not as embarasing as this one)..
The League, with Moggi and Galliani always wanted to keep him , probably knowing he would let them to keep on managing their crap (the unbelievable serie B with 24 teams was the top of the ****), Galliani happy with his crappy 20 teams serie A, and Moggi happy to have a FIGC president whom he was able to 'influence' and 'unable' to see their cheats..

btw, it seems Carraro had on his table this stuff by March, at least.. apparently he was trying to keep it secret in order to not compromise Italian World Cup..
more probably he was simply trying to burke it as long as possible..

unfortunately (for him and others) there seems to be someone out there who has started to release to newspapers new parts of the recordings, day after day...

@ Ott
(extract from the first lnked article)

..Others offer a glimpse of how some transfers are conducted. Moggi rings Antonio Giraudo, the club’s chief executive, to tell him that Zlatan Ibrahimovic, a transfer target at the time, scored a hat-trick for Ajax. “What the hell! But I specifically told him to play badly!” an angry Giraudo says. “I told him! We had agreed that he would play badly, go see the manager after the game, tell him that he would never play for them again and demand that he be sold to us!”..

Well, i can barely keep track of all the rumours surfacing in the last couple of days..

just the main things:


-yesterday evening-

the investigations in Roma and Napoli have Luciano and Alessandro Moggi (among other GEA members) officially inquired for criminal association purposive to sports fraud and illegal competition through intimidates and violence.

note that speaking of juve i already used these words in the past: "criminal association...sports fraud" :sarcasm:

apparently, a note written by GEA constitutor was found in GEA center some time ago during investigations; within, he adviced the members to not use intimidates anymore to complete deals..

i can't find anymore the exact letterpress that i read yesterday on some papers' sites.


unconfirmed rumours talk about phone recordings regarding the whole 2004/05 season at least and more teams involved in the Napoli's investigation.



-today-

De Santis should be precautionally substituted by Rosetti in the World Cup.

breaking news: Antonio Giraudo (Juventus' administrator) is inquired for false balance sheet.


interrogatories keep on happening in several places for parallel inquiries (FIGC, Roma, NApoli, and a new one in Torino)


wild unconfirmed rumours talk about 3 or 4 more teams involved from the 2004/05 season (there would be at least a couple of teams supposedly under GEA/Moggi control- Messina and Siena?) and at least 20 games and 30 characters under investigation..

Helicecopter, thanks for the updates.

This 'Thing' expands at such a pace, it is quite crazy. It looks like plenty of stuff was kept secret for a while but now that it is coming out, it is like domino.
It may take a bit of time to see clearer through rumors and facts.

Helicecopter, thanks for the updates.You are welcome!

This 'Thing' expands at such a pace..
..and Innocenzo Mazzini (the other FIGC vice president) just resigned.

(already excluded yesterday from the Italian contingent for the WC)

Well, after watching some newspapers this morning, i think i have to rent Evilo's signature:

"And it's time we saw a miracle!
Come on it's time for something biblical!"

The Juventus' council of administration was achieved today.

Apparently Moggi and especially Giraudo refused to resign, despite the will of the other CDA members.

As a direct consequence, the whole CDA (12 members) resigned and put its mandate back to the shareholders. The new CDA would be elected in the next congress billed on June 29th.

Here is the official announcement:
«Il consiglio di amministrazione della Juventus ha rimesso il proprio mandato agli azionisti e convocato l'Assemblea ordinaria per il 29 giugno 2006»

That would be some crazy stuff...can you imagine if some of those teams are demoted to the Serie C2?

Although, one day I hope Genoa and Napoli return to the Serie A.

Somehow, I think it's a good thing Berlusconi's no longer the Italian Boss, in this context.

Yet another new twist to this bizarre affair. sport.virgilio.it is reporting the wiretaps scandals involves not only Juventus, but also a Sicilian club (rumoured to be Messina), 2 Lombardian clubs (possibly Inter and Milan), Fiorentina and newspapers Il Giorno and Tuttosport, as well as journalists and coaches. Serie A could be on the brink of a major collapse.

Other sites are reporting 9 clubs involved: Juventus, Fiorentina, Lazio, Siena, Udinesse, Messina, Arezzo, Crotone and Avellino.

I'm left to wonder which league will be the best next season: Serie A or Serie B?
Dude, should i report the rumours i've been hearing the last couple of days....

i'm trying to keep a conservative profile.

Messina was and is an easy guess as for teams involved. Very close to GEA, it was basically piloted into serie A two or three seasons ago through many disputed officiatings.. just for the record, they had a whopping 19 penalties awarded in that serie B season. I didn't report about that and many other things at the time cause no one here would have cared.

Siena is a team almost completely under GEA control..
(coach, SD, a lot of players...)

most rumours speak about 3 teams really involved. Add these two to Juve and that's it already. But this is just a weak guess..

Fiorentina with their president have tried along these past couple of years to change things somehow.. they refused to vote for Galliani as Lega president and for Carraro as FIGC president, proposing different candidates. They gave up at some time last season, while Fiorentina was facing relegation.. Fiorentina was eventually able to avoid relegation.. would they be involved, it could be more as victims than anything..

Brescia COULD be one of those two teams from Lombardia, their last game of last season in Firenze was quiet suspect.
Anyway, the rumour about two teams from Lombardia could be crap.
The other one could be Milan though, but this so far is only a personal thought.. (no rumour about it yet.)
shameless Galliani is Lega president, always trying to keep his spot.. his presence still there is not a good thing for the outcome of the internal inquiry by FIGC.

About rumours, there are more about another investigation in Parma about stakes.. surely illegal way stakes, still to be confirmed if stakes would be indeed on Italian soccer (sports fraud?).
4 or 5 juventus' players would be involved. Yesterday,i even knew a couple of names already, but i don't like to put them out as far as they are just rumours. The national team could be touched though...

Somehow, I think it's a good thing Berlusconi's no longer the Italian Boss, in this context.Good point.

Breaking news: carbineers are rummaging FIGC right now!

news one over the other..

the Juventus' names inquired for stakes are out there on papers site now:

Chimenti

Iuliano

Maresca

and
..
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
BUFFON.



Keep in mind real responsabilities (eventual sports fraud) are not considered a given yet as for this part of the investigation.

The other one could be Milan though, but this so far is only a personal thought.. (no rumour about it yet.)
shameless Galliani is Lega president, always trying to keep his spot.. his presence still there is not a good thing for the outcome of the internal inquiry by FIGC.



13.10 PM CET.
For the first time, Milan is rumoured among the teams involved.

Galliani, here we come... :p:

a breaking news every other 10 minutes now..

Italian referees president Tullio Lanese is inquired as well! (i was anxiously awaiting for this one)

Fiorentina and Lazio are indeed somehow involved as well.





Apocalypse now. :yo: :yo: :yo:

Just leaked the names investigated in Napoli:

13:45 :
Luciano Moggi, Antonio Giraudo, Paolo Bergamo, Pier Luigi Pairetto, Tullio Lanese, Innocenzo Mazzini, Francesco Ghirelli, Massimo De Santis (ref), Maria Grazia Fazi (she is the secretary talked about in the tread starter), Gennaro Mazzei, Pasquale Rodomonti(ref), Duccio Baglioni, Ignazio Scardina, Carmine Alvino, Francesco Attardi, Fabio Basili, Paolo Bertini (ref), Franco Carraro (FIGC dismissed president), Enrico Ceniccola, Gabriele Contini, Andrea Della Valle (Fiorent), Paolo Dondarini (ref), Marco Gabriele (ref), Giuseppe Foschetti, Silvio Geminiani, Alessandro Griselli, Marco Ivaldi (linesman), Giuseppe Lasco, Claudio Lotito (Lazio), Leonardo Meani, Sandro Mencucci, Domenico Messina (ref, a bit surprising), Alessandro Moggi, Narciso Pisacreta (linesman), Claudio Puglisi (linesman), Gianluca Rocchi (linesman), Salvatore Racalbuto (ref), Paolo Tagliavento(linesman), Stefano Titomanlio e Pier Luigi Vitelli.

:propeller

17:01 del 12 maggio:

Filippo Beatrice, pm che indaga insieme a Giuseppe Narducci sullo scandalo intercettazioni:
"...Quarantuno sono gli iscritti nel registro degli indagati, sono solo i primi; successivamente ve ne saranno sicuramente altri. È impensabile, in questa fase, la chiusura delle indagini..''

summary:
..it's sure there will be more people investigated besides the 41 names already public..

Now out of control rumours suggest serie A could be suspended before its last stage!!

:jump:

Serie A , B and C should just be kicked off the face of the earth. Would a suspension from FIFA perhaps straighten everyone out? Sanctions on the entire FA, not allowing Italy in the World Cup. We are ready to give Iran the boot( with some compelling reasons for that) and they are not the ones bringing the game of football into disrepute. What do you think Helicopter?

Serie A , B and C should just be kicked off the face of the earth. Would a suspension from FIFA perhaps straighten everyone out? Sanctions on the entire FA, not allowing Italy in the World Cup. We are ready to give Iran the boot( with some compelling reasons for that) and they are not the ones bringing the game of football into disrepute. What do you think Helicopter?My name is helicecopter and i think that ("Serie A , B and C should just be kicked off the face of the earth") would be obviously unfair.

Along years and years there have been victims of this system, why should they pay one more time??

BUT, hopefully Europe's eyes will be an incentive to clean up the whole system completely.

One thing for sure:
all Italian soccer governings should be ERASED.
FIGC (Italian soccer federation) AND Lega.
And if it was for me, CONI(sports federation) as well.

All teams involved should pay, but proportionally to their responsability, of course.
If, as it seems, there are prooves of all i've witnessed along the years, Juventus should be relegated in C2 for example. It won't happen but..
..if despite prooves Juventus will start in serie A next year there won't be any credibility left, zero.
Me and many others would stop watching serie A.


....not allowing Italy in the World CupThat would be quite hilarious considering what happened in Korea. Similar kind of **** (only, concentrated!)

new phone recordings are starting to leak, the first ones from the Napoli's investigation.. (rumours of 10000 pages of transcribed phone calls. Yes, you read right and i wasn't wrong with the number of zeros :eek: )

my quick comment after the first couple of readings:

"It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine."

One thing that I read and made me smiled this week was that Figo wanted to have some money re-paid to him by the league as he got heavily fined when he said that Moggi went into the referee locker room during Inter-Juventus this year. Now he wants his money back!

One thing that I read and made me smiled this week was that Figo wanted to have some money re-paid to him by the league as he got heavily fined when he said that Moggi went into the referee locker room during Inter-Juventus this year. Now he wants his money back! :biglaugh:
i know, i know, it's just one of the thousands of things around these days..

One thing that I read and made me smiled this week was that Figo wanted to have some money re-paid to him by the league as he got heavily fined when he said that Moggi went into the referee locker room during Inter-Juventus this year. Now he wants his money back!

:biglaugh: So Figo was right :handclap: that a boy

news one over the other..

the Juventus' names inquired for stakes are out there on papers site now:

Chimenti

Iuliano

Maresca

and
..
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
BUFFON.



Keep in mind real responsabilities (eventual sports fraud) are not considered a given yet as for this part of the investigation.

Buffon? What does he have to do with this?. I hope it isn't the Italian goal keeper as he would most likely get suspended and miss the WC which would be a shame for the Italians

My name is helicecopter

You should really talk to an admin about changing your username to Helice Copter. I think that would end the confusion once and for all. :D

More details about the involved clubs were revealed today by the public prosecutor of Naples. He confirmed that besides Juventus, Lazio Fiorentina and Milan were under investigation.

I've always been one to be the devil's advocate and I defended Moggi in the past. Now all I got to say is a big F YOU!

Well, at least my seconf favorite team (Tottenham) can qualify for next year's CL.

No they can't...

No they can't...
English football has its own skeletons and this could get messy yet too. How convenient for a team to fall ill the eve before their big game V West Ham. At first I thought their ask for a replay was silly but the more I think about it the more likely there was some " Arsenal " in the food.

Wow, what a mess. I hope Sheva gets the hell out of Serie A for his own sake, before **** REALLY hits the fan.

Massimo De Santis has been officially removed from his charge for the 2006 WC.


Better late than never.

Massimo De Santis has been officially removed from his charge for the 2006 WC.


Better late than never.
He was the guy reffing the 1st game between ESP and SVK (the playoffs for the WC's), which ended 5-1 for ESP in a very weirdly reffed game.

He sure sucks at reffing.

English football has its own skeletons and this could get messy yet too. How convenient for a team to fall ill the eve before their big game V West Ham. At first I thought their ask for a replay was silly but the more I think about it the more likely there was some " Arsenal " in the food.

I really don't think that Arsenal would stoop that low. If anything, it was a deranged fan and I think that's very unlikely as well. Spurs have had a lot in their favor this year. They've played 17 less games than Arsenal and they've been extremely healthy. Outside of King, I can't really think of a serious injury that they had. Arsenal were playing a right-footed central midfielder at LB for 2 months.

The fact of the matter is that if Spurs were worthy for the Champions League, they would have locked up their place long ago. They've had a much, much easier time of it than the Arsenal. Unfortunately for them, they're not worthy of top European football.

Helice, sorry if you've already answered this, but I'm curious, do you think that Juventus should be sent to Serie B or suspended for a year or something else?

I thought it was proven that Tottenham players had gastroenteritis, NOT food poisonning.

I thought it was proven that Tottenham players had gastroenteritis, NOT food poisonning.

They're not completely sure yet I don't think. One player definitely had it before the hotel and they think it may have spread to the other players.

I really hope this is true. Tottenham Hotspur: The team that asked for a replay because its players didn't feel well.

Helice, sorry if you've already answered this, but I'm curious, do you think that Juventus should be sent to Serie B or suspended for a year or something else?
If, as it seems, there are prooves of all i've witnessed along the years, Juventus should be relegated in C2 for example. It won't happen but..
..if despite prooves Juventus will start in serie A next year there won't be any credibility left, zero.
Me and many others would stop watching serie A.
and that's not talking about the robbed titles that should be obviously called off.

;)

An external commissary is expected to take over in FIGC next Tuesday.

As someone who supports Juventus, if these allegations are indeed truthful, I hope that they have the book thrown at them. I am a fan of sport first, and a fan of the team second. If the Serie A wants to be legitimate and remain somewhat credible, they have to throw out Juventus, and relegate them much like they have to teams in the past. It is an utter shame that Moggi and co had to resort to these type of tactics. In doing so, they have cheated the hard earned time, money and effort of their fans around the world. They have tarnished the name of a historic team, and a beautiful game.

Part of me says that Juventus won't get relegated though. If they are found to be guilty, along with Milan, and both were to be relegated, football in Italy's top flight would suffer. These are the two glamour clubs in Italian football history, and immediately attention on the Serie A would diminish if these two teams no longer played in the top flight. Without Juventus and Milan, TV contracts would dwindle, and the worldwide audience would look to other leagues. As a result, many of the top players may leave Italy all together. Because of these circumstances, and the general power that Juventus holds within Italy, I'm not sure if the federation can afford to drop Juventus. As I've mentioned, if they are found guilty, they deserve to be relegated. However, I'm not sure we should be surprised of anything that comes out of Italy anymore, and it wouldn't shock me one bit if Juventus got away with simply a fine.

Part of me says that Juventus won't get relegated though. If they are found to be guilty, along with Milan, and both were to be relegated, football in Italy's top flight would suffer. These are the two glamour clubs in Italian football history, and immediately attention on the Serie A would diminish if these two teams no longer played in the top flight. Without Juventus and Milan, TV contracts would dwindle, and the worldwide audience would look to other leagues. As a result, many of the top players may leave Italy all together. Because of these circumstances, and the general power that Juventus holds within Italy, I'm not sure if the federation can afford to drop Juventus. As I've mentioned, if they are found guilty, they deserve to be relegated. However, I'm not sure we should be surprised of anything that comes out of Italy anymore, and it wouldn't shock me one bit if Juventus got away with simply a fine.


I agree with your basic premise. While I think they SHOULD have the book thrown at them, the Italian FA won't. However, it won't be the Italian FA that looks into this. It'll be an independent comission. And with Berlusconi recently out of office... Let's just say, it could get mighty interesting.

I'm guessing Roma since Milan would be awarded the scudetto, Inter bumped to 2nd, Fiorentina to 3rd and Roma up to the 4th and final CL qualification spot.

Several of these teams could find themselves in similar trouble, though...

An external commissary is expected to take over in FIGC next Tuesday.
What is a Helice Copter?

What is a Helice Copter? :biglaugh:

Nothing.. doesn't exist. It was just an idea from Rage.

and obviously helicecopter doesn't mean anything either (if not in my mind), is just a nickname. ;)

Luciano Moggi interrogatory is starting within the next hour and expected to last through tomorrow.

The first shame of this investigation is that he and Giraudo were not put in jail straight away for precaution, to prevent they could agree on a pathetic defensive theory.

As someone who supports Juventus, if these allegations are indeed truthful, I hope that they have the book thrown at them. I am a fan of sport first, and a fan of the team second. If the Serie A wants to be legitimate and remain somewhat credible, they have to throw out Juventus, and relegate them much like they have to teams in the past.Actually no team in calcio's history has been proven guilty of similar crimes in the past, so unprecedented sanctions should be administered.


Part of me says that Juventus won't get relegated though. If they are found to be guilty, along with Milan, and both were to be relegated..Well, it's my fault i didn't find the time to update the situation as quickly as it needed, but i see some specification are badly required here.
For what we know at the moment, Juventus and Milan situations are not comparable by any means.
Juventus was the team fixing serie A through a criminal association to win titles. Milan so far has one member (Meani) involved in a couple of conversations.
Meani whines about referees' behaviour against Milan (pro-Juve) and requires more attention underlining Galliani is livid about that. It seems there is at least a linesman somehow linked with Milan to help them, but the recordings on that matter are open for interpreations..

if no other evidences will appear, Milan's position is the less serious among the four teams officially involved so far (Juve, Lazio, Fiorentina, Milan). That would not lead to relegation, but could prevent them from being assigned the called off titles.
The fact Galliani was Milan's chief AND Lega president in such a system, currently still refusing to resign (what a shameless jerk), speaks volumes.. even if damaged in their title persecutions on the pitch, their management was obviously somehow aware and abettal of the situation.
Hence i hope they won't benefit from sanctions at least.

To sum up the current situation as for possible sanctions, this would be my guess based on the prooves made public so far, just to give you an idea:

Juventus relegated in B starting with a 9 points penalization for next season. 2005 and 2006 titles called off.

Lazio relegated with a 2 points penalization.

Fiorentina relegated.

Milan not awarded titles, maybe with a two points penalization.


Note that these would NOT be proper punishments, since Juve in the same league with Fiorentina and Lazio would be a joke.


Without Juventus and Milan, TV contracts would dwindle, and the worldwide audience would look to other leagues..
..Because of these circumstances, and the general power that Juventus holds within Italy, I'm not sure if the federation can afford to drop Juventus.There are other important factors though: public opinion, public order problems from other damaged teams' fans, international opinion, eventual fans boycotting..
more than anything else, FAIRNESS to gain back some credibility.

As I've mentioned, if they are found guilty, they deserve to be relegated. However, I'm not sure we should be surprised of anything that comes out of Italy anymore, and it wouldn't shock me one bit if Juventus got away with simply a fine. They are already found guilty ( I will translate and post some other recordings sooner or later...), a simple fine is out of question, give up your hopes. Serie B would be a shame already..

I agree with your basic premise. While I think they SHOULD have the book thrown at them, the Italian FA won't. However, it won't be the Italian FA that looks into this. It'll be an independent commission. Tuesday an (hopefully) independent commissary should be named as a executive of a deputed commission.
It's quite obvious that FIGC justice organs (and their supposed chief Pappa) should have been removed already! They were chosen by FIGC and Carraro.. and curiously never inquired spontaneously on the situation...
hopefully a new justice organ will be appointed by the independent commission as soon as possible (but i have my doubts about that :rolleyes: ).

The past night, rumours started to say investigations would pertain this season as well.
In particular it seems at least the game Juventus-Siena played in December is under examination. It would be nice if phone recordings were made before Juventus-Udinese and Juventus-Parma (played on 5th February 2006 and 8th February 2006)..
mark these two games, the referees were Dattilo (key linesmen Contini and Alessandrone) and Palanca: they needed to ‘work’ as hard as they could in their try to make Juve win and what a memorable effort it was!! (against Parma Del Piero missed a penalty shot at the end so the game ended 1-1 only by coincidence).
It’s still unclear if investigations on the 2005/05 season were already underway and supported by more phone recordings or if they were ignited by the first interrogatories.

More phone recordings (probably again on the 2004/05 season) are expected to leak soon, while I didn’t translate anything yet out of the ‘AMAZING’ ones released on Friday and Saturday.

Meanwhile, it has been reported that the investigations (even if probably without any phone recordings) go in the past as far as until 2000 at least.
After a season already full of scandals, there was that famous last episode, with De Santis disallowing Parma’s tying goal at the end of the game, preventing Lazio to tie Juve in the general classification with only one stage left. It seems only as a result of the consequent mess, Juve failed to have the chosen ref and Collina was assigned for their last game in Perugia, where they eventually lost the title.

I'm not familiar with Italian laws, but under Canadian jurisdiction, detention without any official accusations is illegal. If I understand the situation correctly, it is a public inquiry and not a criminal one, which means accusations are not guarenteed, right?I've already reported in this thread that Giraudo and Moggi are accused of Criminal association (and are the main characters together with Mazzini, Pairetto, Bergamo and the black&white referee De Santis).
I think with that charge precaution incarceration was a legit option (and would have surely helped the investigation), but i'm not a lawyer so i am not sure and i have problems translating technical terms from Italian to English.
*edit: btw, since Giraudo and Moggi lock in ref Paparesta in the dressing-room' bath after a lost game, they are charged for man's seizure.


I'm not defending them in any way here, it just struck me as peculiar that they could have been incarcerated without legal justification.In these cases the legal justification is usually the risk of prooves' tampering and of agreement on statements between the culprits.

Btw, what laws DO Juventus break IF they are in fact proved to have rigged the officiating?We have to distinguish between sports justice and ordinary (penal) justice.
As for sports justice it's already clear they have basically broken any kind of rules there is in Italy, and continually.
Also, to be noted that Italian sports justice doesn't require the demostration of the crime to be committed: in fact even the motived assumption of an attempt to cheat can be punished with relegation (and was enough in the past).

Guido Rossi, a lawyer, is the commissary nominated to take over FIGC.
He was not among the expected candidates..and i barely know his name. Mixed feelings at the moment.

Btw, what laws DO Juventus break IF they are in fact proved to have rigged the officiating?

Well, according to this Soccernet article (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=367963&cc=5901) about the ongoing investigations, some (ex)-officials of Juventus may need to worry a bit more than match fixing.

Juve's entire board resigned last week after transcripts of phone taps featuring Moggi were published in the press.

In the conversations, Moggi discussed specific refereeing appointments with senior Football Federation officials and bragged about locking a referee in the changing room after a game in which the official awarded a penalty against Juventus.

Locking a ref in a locker room against his will? I'm guessing that's a rather serious crime, if this allegation and these converstations are verified to be true.

Can any Italians translate this

http://www.gazzetta.it/Calcio/Altro_Calcio/Primo_Piano/2006/05_Maggio/15/19partite.shtml

I think its a list of the fixed matches.

Also, its quite scary how they could do this in the NHL, there are so many bad calls that any ref would have a great chance of fixing any given game and noone would even suspect a thing.

Can any Italians translate this

http://www.gazzetta.it/Calcio/Altro_Calcio/Primo_Piano/2006/05_Maggio/15/19partite.shtml
Hey, you don't want me to translate the whole thing right?!

I think its a list of the fixed matches.It's the list of the matches officially under investigation. Actually there are more..
those in the article are basically the ones related with the phone recordings made public so far..

just some specifications..

there are a couple of games where are the linesmen to be the problem:

SIENA-MILAN 2-1 (17 aprile 2005)
Arbitro: Collina
the cheating linesman is Baglioni, there to help Siena to beat Milan.
FIORENTINA-JUVENTUS 3-3 (9 aprile 2005)
Arbitro: Collina
MILAN-CHIEVO 1-0 (24 aprile 2005)
Arbitro: Paparesta
Linesman Puglisi is under investigation since his name is there int he leaked conversations, it seems he is pro-Milan but it's not clear through the phone recordings made public so far. In that prticular game, Milan game winning goal was perfectly legit and both teams had one legit goal disallowed.

Then there are games where Juve is not playing and their chosen referee is there to suspend for the upcoming game players of the next Juve's opponent team (as several phone recordings clearly testify)

INTER-FIORENTINA 3-2 (20 marzo 2005)
Arbitro: Bertini
FIORENTINA-BOLOGNA 1-0 (5 dicembre 2004)
Arbitro: De Santis


One more, this is the one where the ref Paparesta was locked in the bathroom by Moggi and Giraudo.
REGGINA-JUVENTUS 2-1 (6 novembre 2004)
Arbitro: Paparesta


Also, its quite scary how they could do this in the NHL, there are so many bad calls that any ref would have a great chance of fixing any given game and noone would even suspect a thingDon't worry. If anything similar to what has been happening for years in Italy would happen in NHL you would realize watching th games. ;)
When you will see the same team blatantly and consistently helped by referees, then it will be time to argue..
What lacked in Italy were prooves, not evidences, like all my posts about Juventus' robberies along these years attested.
Also, in NHL power and richness are much more spread than in serie A.

PLEASE tell me he has had ntohing to do with this.Read the post!
The games where he was the ref are there because of the linesmen..

So far it seems he is not involved and there were two reasons to think that way already:
-he was rarely assigned to Juve games (that says a lot..)
-watching those rare Juventus' games where he was the ref, he looked unbiased. I wrote several times in the past on these boards that he was the only to look so (besides his apparent correctitude, a good reason for that could be that he was a star with international recognition, so he didn't fear his career would be ruined by Juventus).

Investigations are going on in Holland too.
Apparently about betting, money transfers, etc...

I don't think there's a link between what's going on in Italy and Holland.
Holland's case is closer to Belgium's.

That thing will spread all over Europe now...

It could shake up the game like it has never been since Heysel. In Italy, I wouldn't be surprised if Serie A was scrapped altogether and a new Premiership-like league emerged, like it has been rumoured for a number of years.What would that be supposed to mean?

Juve raided by tax police Thursday 18 May, 2006

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is more trouble for Juventus on Thursday after the club’s offices were raided by Italy’s financial police.

The ‘Guardia di Finanza’ searched the Bianconeri’s headquarters as part of an investigation into the club’s transfer market manoeuvres.

Turin magistrates have opened a file on the outfit with Antonio Giraudo, the club’s former chief executive, being placed under investigation for alleged false accounting.

I remember some rumours from last season that the big and medium clubs (Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Fiorentina, Parma, Palermo, IIRC) wanted Serie A to be completly independant financially from the lower leagues. They now have an opportunity to completly revamp the system and start over. Would it be fair for smaller clubs? No. Would Italian football become better? Most likely.Actually, if i am not wrong that was already decided.. that la lega would split in two separated organs, one for serie A, the other for serie B, with honoraria from serie A clubs fading progressively..

but maybe with Juve heading to serie B they will change it again? :sarcasm:

I don't think there's a link between what's going on in Italy and Holland.
Holland's case is closer to Belgium's.

Pretty shocking. Holland used to have one of the cleanest and most honest leagues. Said to be among the lower teams of the Ere Divisie but mostly in the Gouden Gids Divisie. Lots of Turkish connections..

All speculation at this point though..

You'd think criminals would have learnt by now NOT to keep incriminating evidence in the office.Yeah.. or to cancel it..(that's another reason why imo they should have jailed Giraudo and Moggi straight away)

btw, today Giraudo's, Moggi's, Cannavaro's and Ibra's residences were rummaged as well.

Big positive breaking news:
all the executives of the FIGC investigations office and its chief, generale of Guardia di Finanza Italo Pappa just resigned! (were forced to..)
Pappa's main collaborator name, Attardi, appeared in the last leaked recordings as a Moggi's ancillary! Indirectly Pappa's name was mentioned as well.

First commissary Rossi's statements and, moreover, decisions are definitely encouraging.
Here is hoping Lega president Galliani is the next one to fall (still refusing to resign).
Anyway, i am sure after the commissary will have written the new rules a club's executive won't be able to be the Lega president anymore.

I wish I had money so I could by some Juve shares, they're quite low right now. I could change the direction of this team! ;)

I wish I had money so I could by some Juve shares, they're quite low right now. Yeah, during the last week they lost 43,8% of their value.

I may need some toilet paper soon, I wonder if Juve's stock will become cheaper than a roll of Charmin. :)

So, what happens to the "Scudettos" from 2005 and 2006 if these allegations are true? Do the runners-up get the title or is it just vacated? I'm sorry if this was asked earlier, I was just pondering this now.

So, what happens to the "Scudettos" from 2005 and 2006 if these allegations are true? Do the runners-up get the title or is it just vacated? Yet to be decided. Logic suggests 2005 and 2006 scudettos will be called off and stay vacated.

On a national newspaper (Repubblica) the other day a nice report about the 2004/05 season appeared.
Some numbers out of that season (there were definitely worse ones):

More fouls by a team: juventus, 841 (despite the refs on their side)
Team with less red cards:: juventus, 2
Team with less yellow cards: juventus, 67 (one every 12.5 fouls, by far lowest in the league)
lowest number of players suspended: juventus 8
best penalty shots differential: juventus +5

lol, now that we finally have proves, journalists start releasing the numbers..

Latest Moggi interview (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=368518&cc=5901)
- Berlusconi offered him a job with Milan in September, but Moggi refused. Two weeks later, the Italian Federation received the telephone transcripts.
- Clubs at all level of Italian football often contact referees, including Meani (AC Milan) and Fachetti (Inter). He had to get into the system to make sure Juventus would not be disadvantaged. "It wasn't me who invented this football, it is the system that has always worked like this" he said.
- Neither Milan nor Inter wanted to deny the accusations. :biglaugh:

Well, hopefully the novel won't consider Moggi's desperation words..

most of these supposed (his lawy denied Moggi said these things in an interview) Moggi's words are pure crap:


- Berlusconi offered him a job with Milan in September, but Moggi refused. Two weeks later, the Italian Federation received the telephone transcripts.
Berlusconi maybe offered him a job. But Moggi is implying that Galliani as a result somehow made the telephone transcripts available for the FIGC (that way preventing Moggi to replace him as Milan executive).
Now, that doesn't make sense, as Galliani and Berlusconi first interst was to keep status quo to do whatever they please with television rights. After the scandal that won't be the case anymore and Galliani should be forced soon to resign from his Lega president role.
Btw, Berlusconi government fall could be a better reason for these investigations to find their way.. as former government's inside minister Pisanu was there in the phone recordings as Moggi's associate...
More importantly, the telephone transcripts that arrived to FIGC (the one i translated in the thread starter and that FIGC burked) from Torino concern a 40 days period and are not the ones because Moggi and Juventus are investigated. If anything their publication damaged the much more important Napoli inquiry that is going on for more than two years by now. So the key investigation that should cause Juventus' relegation and hopefully Moggi and Giraudo incarceration started 2 freaking years before Moggi talked with Berlusconi....and would have become public at the right time and for good even without the telephon transcripts from Torino.

- Clubs at all level of Italian football often contact referees, including Meani (AC Milan) and Fachetti (Inter).
As far as leaked phone recordings go:
Meani (a Milan's associate, not an executive) contacted a linesman to complain, asking for explanations and reassurances... definitely arguable material but there is hardly any direct sports fraud evidences there.
Facchetti contacted one of the two referees' nominators to ask for informations about the already drawn CL referees

- He had to get into the system to make sure Juventus would not be disadvantaged.
This quote is absolutely hilarious..

- "It wasn't me who invented this football, it is the system that has always worked like this" he said.
This one could have some truth as referees were used to favour Juventus even before Moggi took over..

- Neither Milan nor Inter wanted to deny the accusations.
Milan did. Inter had nothing to deny..

- Clubs at all level of Italian football often contact referees, including Meani (AC Milan) and Fachetti (Inter).

- "It wasn't me who invented this football, it is the system that has always worked like this" he said.

Personally, I wouldn't be too surprised if there was some truth in these two points.

Personally, I wouldn't be too surprised if there was some truth in these two points.
Quite frankly, looking at the history of Italian football, I would be more surprised if they weren't true, unfortunately.

- Clubs at all level of Italian football often contact referees, including Meani (AC Milan) and Fachetti (Inter). He had to get into the system to make sure Juventus would not be disadvantaged. "It wasn't me who invented this football, it is the system that has always worked like this" he said.


Well, fine, but I fail to see how this excuses Juventus or any other team. If anything, it's more of a reason to drop the hammer on Juventus and any other implicated teams. Send a message to all teams that match fixing (and locking up refs in your locker room) in any form is unacceptable and the consquences are grave.

That's not a good sign. If you're innocent, wouldn't you want to deny it? Or say something about it?What about taking the time to read the previous posts?

Quite frankly, looking at the history of Italian football, I would be more surprised if they weren't true, unfortunately.Well, actually history of Italian soccer football on the pitch and in particular along the last 12 years matches perfectly the scenario drawn so far by the leakd phone recordings: ONE team illegally dominating the market and moreover using the referees to rob titles.

What about taking the time to read the previous posts?

I have been reading the previous posts. I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean.

I have been reading the previous posts. I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean.
- "Neither Milan nor Inter wanted to deny the accusations."
Milan did. Inter had nothing to deny..
explanations within the same post

Ahhhh, I completely missed that. Sorry. I'll go edit my prior post.

FIGC commissary Guido Rossi nominated the new FIGC investigations' office's chief: it's Saverio Borrelli.

He was a main character in the inquiry called 'mani pulite' (clean hands) more than ten years ago.
His first words:"i didn't expect this..lol.. from 'mani pulite' to 'piedi puliti'(clean feet)"

Borrelli is said to be antipathetic to Berlusconi for his previous investigations. This nomination sounds reassuring against the fears of burking..but a less 'politicized' man could have looked better imo.

from repubblica.it

here comes the report of a proceeding the Roma's police did convey to the Napoli's questorship:


C'e' una seconda informativa con intercettazioni dei carabinieri: definisce 'sodalizio criminale' il gruppo di potere nei vertici calcistici. L'Arma di Roma, che gia' aveva indagato sullo scandalo del calcio e aveva spedito una prima informativa con le intercettazioni in aprile, si ripete anche il 2 novembre 2005. E informa la Procura di Roma che le nuove 'acquisizioni probatorie conferiscono ulteriore e piu' allarmante spessore al quadro investigativo gia' tracciato'. In pratica, i carabinieri capitolini hanno evidenziato 'come il gruppo in disamina ha svolto la sua attivita' in perfetta aderenza ai propri e consolidati meccanismi, utilizzando i metodi e gli strumenti tipici di un sodalizio criminale attraverso i quali creare le condizioni di prevaricazione e collusione' per ottenere gli scopi dell'organizzazione stessa attraverso 'la molteplicita' dei delitti di frode sportiva e illecita concorrenza [...] costituenti la base del programma criminoso'. L'inchiesta, chiamata Off-side (fuori gioco) ha consentito 'di far emergere la realta' vera che si cela dietro all'immagine di facciata patinata e pubblica del mondo del pallone all'oscuro dei veri intrecci sia in tema di gestione istituzionale che squisitamente tecnica, e delle effettive dinamiche che intervengono a incanalare in alvei predefiniti il corso degli eventi, compreso il risultato sportivo'. In pratica, sportivamente, 'le indagini hanno accertato comportamenti disinvolti e metodici che distinguono sistematicamente la vigilia di ogni gara del campionato, caratterizzati dalle modalita' di comunicazione tra gli associati attraverso canali sicuri e alternativi'. L'informativa identifica soprattutto i momenti chiave della vita istituzionale (la conferma di Franco Carraro il 14 febbraio 2005 alla Figc e quella di Adriano Galliani alla Lega il 23 marzo) come 'oggetto di massimo interesse da parte dell'organizzazione moggiana in quanto condizione necessaria e irrinunciabile per conservare la capacita' di poter manovrare indisturbatamente all'interno del palazzo'.
Ottenute le due conferme, il gruppo 'e' intervenuto nel processo di spoils-system con pesanti ingerenze nei soggetti da destinare alle cariche dei vari organi sportivi o da piazzare nei posti strategici'. Cosi' facendo la vita' delle istituzioni e' risultata 'condizionata e condizionabile' e gli interessi del gruppo stesso hanno influito sugli atti di amministrazione attraverso le proprie emanazioni. La nota prosegue evidenziando come nella prevenzione delle mosse avversarie e nella predisposizione delle contromosse 'la figura di Antonio Giraudo si e' imposta nel contesto associativo per la parte di rilievo avuta nelle scelte strategiche e nelle attivita' del gruppo svolgendo un ruolo di primo piano che lo colloca nella componente di vertice'. Inoltre, consolidato il potere, 'il meccanismo di frode sportiva ha condotto al risultato sperato, ovvero la conquista del campionato da parte della juventus'. Ma anche le accuse ad altre societa' vengono confermate: 'anche la permanenza nella massima serie della Fiorentina e della Lazio sono dei risultati raggiunti grazie all'intervento dell'associazione a delnquere in questione', fatto che rende ancora piu' allarmante 'il grado di pericolosita' della stessa'. Viola e biancocelesti, infatti, sono accusari di avere ricorso 'con enfasi e valenza diversa a quegli interventi utili alla loro tutela'. In particolare, l'appoggio della Lazio al sistema dominante avrebbe consentito al club di riscuotere 'il credito che aveva aperto ricevendo il giusto compenso': rateizzazione dei debiti e campagna acquisti favorevole, complice anche il vecchio raporto tra Mezzaroma, suocero di Lotito, e Moggi ai tempi della Roma. Per quanto riguarda la Fiorentina, invece, la contrapposizione alle rielezioni di Carraro-Galliani l'ha poi costretta 'a sottomettersi al sistema per scongiurare il baratro della retrocessione'. Anche l'intervento di queste due societa' ha 'evidenziato il sincronismo del meccanismo' che vede coinvolti anche i designatori arbitrali che 'agendo su imput del vertice dell'organizzazione predispongono le griglie'. Per Bergamo e Pairetto c'e' l'accusa di aver concretizzato sugli arbitri 'I necessari strumenti di coazione psicologica che comprimono ogni autonomia decisionale in capo al singolo arbitro' I carabinieri evidenziano inoltre che il gruppo moggiano era per foza consapevole dell'illegalita' di certe manovre, attuando 'un'accurata e pianificata strategia di elusione di ogni forma di controllo investigativo'.


i hope a web traslator can make it understandable.

Alessio Secco is now Juventus' new sports director. He was team manager and press secretary.

Cappelo will have full control over transfers.I wouldn't bet a penny on Capello's stay; it will depend on where (which serie) Juventus will play next year.

Btw, Dino Zoff is the leading candidate to takeover as Juventus' president.

Yeah, that's a given that Cappelo would leave if the sanctions are heavy.

I love the idea of Zoff being president. One of Juve's great if not the greatest to ever wear the black and white. Hopefully more legends and competent personel join the boat in order to give the club a much needed overhaul and bringing back some credibility.

I've been thinking of what the team could look like if we are demoted. I think we'd be able to climb back into the top flight quite fast. I include players who confirmed they'd play for Juve in Serie B and those I believe would stay.

------------------ Del Piero ------ Palladino ------------------
Olivera ------------------------------------------- Marchionni
-------------------- Blasi ------- Giannichedda ---------------
Chiellini --------- Cannavaro -------- Kovac -------- Balzaretti
-------------------------- Antonioli --------------------------
In all the mockups I've seen, Juventus is really high on Mirante as a netminder, they loaned out to Siena for this year. I've heard that regardless of where Juve plays, he could be their starter (Buffon could be sold to Milan apparently).

I include players who confirmed they'd play for Juve in Serie B and those I believe would stay.

------------------ Del Piero ------ Palladino ------------------
Olivera ------------------------------------------- Marchionni
-------------------- Blasi ------- Giannichedda ---------------
Chiellini --------- Cannavaro -------- Kovac -------- Balzaretti
-------------------------- Antonioli --------------------------I think you should scratch Cannavaro and add Zanetti inthe middle in place for Blasi or Giannichedda.

In all the mockups I've seen, Juventus is really high on Mirante as a netminder, they loaned out to Siena for this year. I've heard that regardless of where Juve plays, he could be their starter (Buffon could be sold to Milan apparently).Maybe i already said it in this thread but.. i think even if Mirante is promising Antonioli is probably still more reliable at the moment and would probably be the favourite to start.
(so, are you back? :) )

I've been thinking of what the team could look like if we are demoted. I think we'd be able to climb back into the top flight quite fast. Next year serie B could be very dangerous. At the moment only two teams get promoted directly, there is one more spot coming out of playoffs. Serie A is probably (hopefully) going to reduce its number of teams, so it's unlikely they will go back to 4 promotions.
Now, suppose for a moment that the justice hammer demote Lazio and Fiorentina in serie B, and only add penalization to Juve (instead of serie C).
Aside from the public disorders that would lead in Genova, Firenze and Roma, it would mean a lot of competition. Consider that, just promoted from serie C, Napoli will join serie B next year, and Genoa, another pretty ambitious team, could do as well.
Torino is still far from sure of getting promotion (is third at the moment)..
So you could have Juventus, Fiorentina, Lazio, Torino, Napoli, Genoa, Bologna (if not fished out as damaged side in 2004/05) altogether.. with only three spots available. That WOULD mean furious competition.

Cannavaro confirmed today (http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/may24i.html)..Considering Cannavaro's behaviour and words, the fact he will be the captain and Lippi is the coach, me, just like a lot of Italians, would love to see Ghana and the others give us a nice beating.

Considering Cannavaro's behaviour and words, the fact he will be the captain and Lippi is the coach, me, just like a lot of Italians, would love to see Ghana and the others give us a nice beating.
I dont know if I understood you right: You would want ITA to lose against Ghana?

I dont know if I understood you right: You would want ITA to lose against Ghana?A nice 0-4 would be something!

Seriously, i would feel for guys like Nesta, Toni, Totti... it's their now or never opportunity, but me and most Italians are ashamed to be represented on the world stage by Cannavaro as the captain and Lippi as the coach.
Cannavaro (part of the phone recordings, forcing a trade through censorable behaviour) still going around saying Juventus won their titles on the pitch with full merit :lol:, implying there is no reasons to erase them. :speechles
Lippi in the leaked phone recordings takes orders from Moggi about which Juventus' players rest in friendlies!!..with his son working as agent for GEA going around stealing players from his colleagues through promises of a call in the national team..something explaining how a guy like Blasi could ever wear the national team jersey..

And i'd rather lose against Ghana and Czech Republic than against some other countries.
I don't think more than 50% of Italians will support the national team, probably it would grow with the team going deep in the tourney.
But a great World Cup could make people able to swallow weak, unfair sanctions..something i would hate.

But a great World Cup could make people able to swallow weak, unfair sanctions..something i would hate.

I understand that. Thats why I wanted our hockey team to not make the quarters these WC's as the leading people in the federation have been there for 8+ years and I want a change.

A good result would make these things forgotten (like ITA going to the Finals).

So Helice, Il Corriere della Sera is now reporting Milan phone calls...

Could you give us the details?

So Helice, Il Corriere della Sera is now reporting Milan phone calls...

Could you give us the details?Ok, later in the day (like the last two teams and rankings of serie A draft)

So Helice, Il Corriere della Sera is now reporting Milan phone calls...

Could you give us the details?
some phone recordings after the game Milan lost against Siena (some other phone recordings* confirm the linesman Baglioni was there to damage Milan and he did disallowing a legit goal):
Meani (a Milan associate) to Mazzei (linesmen director):
"***!! i really don't want this one (Baglioni), NO! I've never asked nor wanted him ! Besides now he (Galliani).. he tells me to be very careful now! To not make mistakes cause he is furious! So tell them to be very careful from now on.. so for Wednesday try to send two clever.."

minutes later again..

Meani: "now be careful..
...
send to us too the Consolo (black&white linesman it seems) of the situation, not like you always send him to Torino eh..understood?"
Mazzei: "yes, no, no, no, i'll send him.. of course"

Puglisi seems to be the linesman liked by Milan since Meani celebrates his designation for a home game against Chievo (Milan won 1-0 with a legit goal, both teams had one legit goal disallowed): "after the purge..it comes the medicine.. since they were afraid.."
It's also described (but quotes about that are missing) a phone call were Galliani asks Meani if he talked to Mazzei and Bergamo and Meani confirms adding that in fact Puglisi will be the linesman for Milan-Chievo. So that suggests Galliani knew more or less how it worked and Milan tried at the very least to not be damaged by Juventus' group of referees.

* for example this one:
Mazzini to Giraudo "... but... but..i have to say our friend in Siena was outstanding!"
the extract of Carabineers' (the ones secretely listening) report is pretty explicit:
“..con esito assicurato mediante la designazione fraudolenta dell’assistente Baglioni, che garantiva e si adoperava per il raggiungimento di un risultato comunque favorevole alla squadra senese, in quanto la sconfitta del Milan avrebbe agevolato la Juventus, diretta competitrice per lo scudetto”.


In other news, it seems besides deciding referees for most games (of any teams), beneficiating from their referees in their games, having their referees suspending next opponents' players, controlling some other teams and players through GEA, Juventus (Moggi) could even choose the preferred schedule! :biglaugh:

According to Tuttosport, Zambrotta will also stay if Juve are relegated. So far, we have Del Piero, Marchionni (bosman from Parma), C. Zanetti (bosman from Inter), Cannavaro, Palladino (from Boca Juniors, playing for Argentina at the WC) and Zambrotta confirmed, as well as Mirante and Antonioli almost certain to join.Not to ruin your day, but what Tuttosport says means absolutely nothing; it is probably the worst newspaper in Europe.

Next in line to take a management position with Juve: Roberto Baggio.

John Elkann has contacted him and the Divin Codino agreed to return to the club. Apparently Inter also wanted him, but he'd rather go to Juve.Giampaolo Montali, Italian national volley's team coach, should join Juve to be part of the administration of the club.

In other news, CONI's attorney will apply to CAF against prescription of Juventus' doctor Agricola's behaviour previously decided by disciplinary. During Napoli's investigations it showed Moggi had some ancillaries among Torino's judges as well (what a surprise!) and the doping inquiry should be re-opened.

You forgot the funniest part of this saga thus far. Milan is blaming a media conspiracy for being dragged into this.

Oh the irony!Of course Milan is somehow involved.. a team that big with that power (Galliani Lega' president and Berlusconi council's president..) doesn't wait for suffering from the next robbery on the pitch without trying to avoid it and/or counter attack.

As for the media conspiracy is not completely off target.
Juventus strategy to not be punished as hard as they deserve is bringing with them in the scandal as many and as bigger clubs as possible. And newspapers from Torino are seconding that vicious attempt. I won't even talk about Tuttosport (btw, its director featured in one of the phone recordings taking advices from Moggi on what to write on the newspaper about delicate matters..:lol: ).. but i need to point out that La Stampa is Agnelli's property and Giraudo is in its administration council......
Moggi's lawyers are even saying he had to protect Juve from Milan TVs' power! :biglaugh: like Juventus didn't benefit from the unfair TV situation just like Milan (that being the main reason Giraudo and Moggi worked so hard buying minor clubs' votes to re-elect him as Lega president.. to protect both's privileges outside of the pitch). Obviously Milan with Galliani is just as much guilty (if not more) as Juventus concerning the unfair TV's rights selling.

Among all the further leaked recordings, there were some gems.

Juventus signed two young Russians beyond the deadline and the deals were ruled off. It all ended with an apply from Juventus to CAF, the last deciding organ of sports justice, that eventually gave them the 'reason'.
Here is what Moggi says in the recordings to FIGC's secretary Ghirelli:
"work on it with Martellino (he is the CAF commission director)"
"work about that..or i will make him pass his holidays cleaning baths in Torino"

To be noted that Martellino is still in charge at the moment and CAF is expected to be the last deciding organ on the sanctions for this scandal. :rolleyes:

Here is another one.

It's between Meani (Milan's associate under investigation) and referee Nucini:

Nucini: "Bravo, then Baldas, let's not even talk about him, it was a season that it's better to hide under a merciful cover to..."
Meani: "Well...Baldas...the appointer was Di Tommaso" (a 'journalist' of Tuttosport)
Nucini: "Yeah bravo! Bravo! Exactly, so..."
Meani: "And so it was Moggi the appointer back at Baldas' times"
Nucini: "Eh, this... i know of Di Tommaso"
Meani: "Eh, but Di Tommaso is a man of Moggi eh.."
Nucini: "Yes he was and he still is, nowadays?"
Meani: "Eh, of course!"

As i already mentioned in this thread, Baldas was the referees' appointer in the '97/'98 season, when Juventus' reached what is probably the most blatantly robbed title in European sports.

Anything new here?

Is relegation to Serie B still likely?

And what becomes of their top stars, I assume they all have relegation clauses.

Wow this thread was a crazy read... I sure hope all federation (or whoever TPTB) has the integrity to relegate all the guilty clubs even if it costs millions in lost revenue.

Italian soccer in shambles and not only Juventus: Following the delivery of the Calciopoli report handed over by Borelli to the Federal Prosecutor, it emerges that four teams are risking much more than they were initially expecting.

The club which is risking most is surely Juventus, who might end up in Serie C rather than "just" Serie B.

Fiorentina and Lazio will most likely receive a heavy point deduction for the start of next season, whereas Milan's position is worse than first thought and their penalty might range from a heavy point deduction to a demotion to Serie B football.

According to Borelli, apart from the 'Juve system', there also was the 'Milan system' which Adriano Galliani has denied in recent weeks. In the report it emerges that even though the system created by Moggi and Giraudo was the most powerful, the one involving the Rossoneri was only a step behind the Bianconeri's, and for this reason Milan are risking a lot.As for 'Milan system' i don't know if Borrelli was referring to their control of televisions' matters or what..
anyway Milan's position worsened (while i was in Germany) beyond the conversations i had reported here since a couple of more recordings appeared where it looked like Meani was trying to organize a 'counterpower' to balance the control Moggi and Giraudo operated on the referees' system. The two teams obviously dominated (and both benefited from) the situation as for political and economical matters but Milan was far from happy as for how things worked on the pitch. While Fiorentina stopped to legally fight the system (accepting to vote for Galliani and Carraro and staying with the status quo) to be illegally saved after suffering from penalizing refereeings, Milan apparently was illegally fighting the system trying to gain more power.
Also, Baldini in his interrogatory confirmed all the suspects about the ****** unfair power Galliani and Giraudo/Moggi managed on the administration of political and economical affairs of Italian soccer.
As for the sanctions the key will be if the inquirers are able to prove Galliani involvement or not in the referees' matters. Meani as an associate would mean only 'objective' responsability for the society, Galliani would mean 'direct' responsability and thus many more chances to be relegated.

The federal attorney is expected to comunicate today the charges against the teams involved in the scandal. There were requests from Germany to procrastinate it after the decisive game against Czech Republic to avoid the potential resulting destabilization among the players, but it seems the federal prosecutor Stefano Palazzi has his charges ready and won't await to make them available. :jump:

as a result of the growing contentions commissary Rossi announced the charges will be released tomorrow after the exchange closing (and during the game against Czech Republic)

wow it will be very interesting what happens in this situation.

I don't know if it'll affect the players or Lippi during the game. They'll be too busy trying to win it (I hope), they're not going to be listening to the report on portable TVs or radios.

But I am interested to see what the report states about this entire mess.

I don't know if it'll affect the players or Lippi during the game. They'll be too busy trying to win it (I hope), they're not going to be listening to the report on portable TVs or radios.

But I am interested to see what the report states about this entire mess.
I kind of wished they put this off until after the World Cup. Although it is a massive story, and everything needs to be sorted out in a timely matter, football would need to be in damage control during a time where the game should be celebrated. This will cast a very dark shadow over the tournament, and will ruin the experience for the players who play for the teams involved.

I wonder how Nedved and Jankulovski will play tomorrow for the Czechs, in addition to the Italians. Should be interesting to see, that's for sure.

I don't know if it'll affect the players or Lippi during the game. They'll be too busy trying to win it (I hope), they're not going to be listening to the report on portable TVs or radios. The point was to not let them know about the charges before the game. During the game (even better, the second half) or right after it won't make any difference.

A summary (in English) of the current situation:
http://www.ansa.it/main/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2006-06-21_1218454.html

I forgot to report about that hair transplant phone recording!:lol:
I have to say though that by all the evidences coming from the pitch, a Milan system was not in place yet (at least as for referees are concerned), or was not working yet. In the known investigated games where Milan is involved, they are the damaged side in some (for example Siena-Milan=2-1 where by the wiretapes and the events on the pitch the referee was there to make them lose) and there are not favoured sides in the others.. (for example Milan-Chievo=1-0 where they were supposed to have their linesmen but both teams had goal unfairly disallowed for offside).

Meanwhile, the Torino's attorney is investigating on Juventus for the charge of made-up balance-sheet..
international checkouts have been appointed.
In particular, it seems the Standard Liegi's place has been rummaged by Belgian police to check some transactions between the two clubs (Carini and Benjamin)

It seems Standard's administrator was already sentenced in France to a 6 months detention for fraud.

Juventus, Milan, Lazio and Fiorentina have been charged with sporting fraud as part of the Calciopoli scandal.


http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/jun22p.html

20 games in Serie A/B in the 2004/2005 season are being investigated (or under suspicion?) these are:

Reggina-Juventus 2-1 (6-11-04)
Lecce-Juventus 0-1 (14-11-04)
Juventus-Lazio 2-1 (5-12-04)
Fiorentina-Bologna 1-0 (5-12-04)
Bologna-Juventus 0-1 (12-12-04)
Juventus-Udinese 2-1 (13-2-05)
Roma-Juventus 1-2 (5-3-05)
Inter-Fiorentina 3-2 (20-3-05)
Fiorentina-Juventus 3-3 (9-4-05)
Chievo-Lazio 0-1 (20-2-05)
Lazio-Parma 2-0 (27-2-05)
Bologna-Lazio 1-2 (17-4-05)
Siena-Milan 2-1 (17-4-05)
Lazio-Fiorentina 1-1 (22-5-05)
Chievo-Fiorentina 1-2 (8-5-05)
Lecce-Parma 3-3 (29-5-05)
Livorno-Siena 3-6 (8-5-05)
Milan-Brescia 1-1 (10-4-05)
Milan-Chievo 1-0 (24-4-05)
Arezzo-Salernitana 2-0 (29-5-05)

27 people and 4 teams are involved.

Teams:
Juventus
Milan
Fiorentina
Lazio

People:
Luciano Moggi
Antonio Giraudo
Adriano Galliani
Leonardo Meani
Andrea Della Valle
Diego Della Valle
Sandro Mencucci
Claudio Lotito
Cosimo Maria Ferri
Franco Carraro
Innocenzo Mazzin
Tullio Lanese
Paolo Bergamo
Pierluigi Pairetto
Gennaro Mazzei
Pietro Ingargiola
Paolo Bertini
Massimo De Santis
Paolo Dondarini
Fabrizio Babini
Domenico Messina
Gianluca Paparesta
Gianluca Rocchi
Pasquale Rodomonti
Paolo Tagliavento
Claudio Puglisi

Whoooooooooo, this is massive.

The title of this thread needs to be changed. ;)

The title of this thread needs to be changed. ;)I really don't think so. All the charges against the other teams are for illegal behaviours that were a direct consequence of the Juventus' system (control of referees) that has been running for YEARS.. :p:

Juventus and their representatives Moggi and Giraudo have been charged for reiterated violation of the articles #1,2,6 and 9 with direct responsability.
If recognized guilty of the charges, the punishment for Juve should vary from serie B with penalization to serie C2.

Galliani is charged for violation of article #1. Associate Meani for violation of articles #1 and #6. So MIlan is charged only for objective responsability as for article #6.
That should bring a punishment varying from penalization in serie A to serie B with penalization.

Lazio's and Fiorentina's position seems to be somewhere in the middle:
more serious than Milan's one, less serious than Juventus' one.

1 word can describe Italian football at the moment:

Disgraceful

Whatever happenned to innocent until proven guilty?We are talking of people and a team already proven guilty by facts.
Thousands of phone recordings added to all the evidences coming from the pitch for years.
Chances for Juventus to be saved from lower series rely only on more inequity to come..
-the short terms economical interests of Italian soccer put ahead of justice..
-the media's and newspapers' interests, that in fact are trying any possible, even ridiculous ways to save Juventus from serie C..
-eventual welcomed procedural 'mistakes'...

Can't be determined until both sides have made their cases.I guess if you attend me killing someone i am not proven guilty until the trial is completed..

anyway, while we are at it, i have to underline an important thing that i think i already mentioned in this thread:

In the Italian sports justice, unlike in the ordinary one, after they are impeached with reasoned charges, the culprits have to prove their innocence to not be considered fully guilty. It's not the prosecutor that have to prove them guilty.

Also, for Italian sports justice the attempt to fraud is enough to be considered guilty. The accomplished fraud is an eventual aggravation. So the culprits need to prove they didn't even try to fraud (lol).
That said, in Italy nothing can be taken for granted..

So, this morning at the Stadio Olimpico in Roma, the biggest trial in the Italian sports history started; or better, tried to.. it was in fact a false start as CAF received the procedural objections made by the defenses.. third parties (teams hoping to replace the culprits in serie A) asked to be admitted to the trial and culprits' lawyers were asking for more time to see the papers..

The trial should start for good Monday morning.

Zdenek Zeman, the man that provides the face of my avatar (btw, he will be back with Lecce next season), today released an interview about the scandal.
http://www.calciomercato.com/index.php?c=25&a=8938
Unfortunately i don't have an English version for you. I hope an online translator can make it understandable.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Torna a parlare Zdenek Zeman, neo allenatore del Lecce e da sempre uomo "anti-sistema". Il tecnico del boemo parla del maxiprocesso, i giudici, la cupola, le intercettazioni, la stampa e il calcio da salvare.

-Zeman, oggi comincia il maxiprocesso...
«Dopo tanti anni di trucchi, imbrogli, bugie, inganni e illeciti non casuali ma di Sistema, ora c’è finalmente la possibilità di cambiare quel Sistema, di fare calcio in maniera diversa, di farlo tornare solo uno sport. Hanno distrutto la credibilità di un gioco che il popolo ha eletto come propria principale passione e veicolo di sentimenti. Chi dovrà giudicare adesso e chi si ritroverà a fare calcio da domani ha il dovere di riportare in prima linea i valori morali da trasmettere alla gente affinchè il mondo del pallone non sia più il mondo esasperato che abbiamo vissuto negli ultimi 10 anni; gli stadi non siano più zone di guerra e territorio di lotta politica; e nei bar o nelle piazze si possa tornare a parlare di calcio, di giocatori, di tecnica e di tattica e non più di processi, corruzione, sudditanze, bilanci truccati o atleti dopati. Se invece si perde anche questa occasione...»
-La credibilità del calcio muore definitivamente?
«La credibilità è già morta. Ora si deve decidere se si vuole rinascere. Vediamo se c’è la voglia di rinascere».
-Lei che ha sempre denunciato tutto prima, pensava davvero fosse tutto così organizzato?
«Otto mesi di intercettazioni sono solo un piccolo squarcio di quanto è successo negli ultimi 10 anni. Perchè è accaduto molto di più di quanto oggi leggiamo...».
-Proviamo a raccontare?
(La pausa è lunga, e negli occhi traspare l’amarezza)
«Eh...Come lo spieghi a milioni di persone un imbroglio simile?»
-Dieci anni...
«Oggi guardiamo la punta dell’iceberg ma tra A, B e C abbiamo vissuto dieci anni di scandali continui, figli e collegati al famoso Sistema. Il doping, i bilanci truccati, le plusvalenze, le iscrizioni fasulle, le fidejussioni, i passaporti falsi, la suddivisione dei diritti tv, i rapporti con le banche, le scommesse, i reucci del mercato, gli arbitri sudditi, la giustizia ingiusta, i conflitti di interessi... Decine di scandali insabbiati, sommersi, mai risolti. Con tutto il rispetto per chi in certe tragedie ha perso la vita, il calcio italiano è pieno di casi Ustica e Piazza Fontana. Tre anni fa, dopo una mia intervista, vennero a interrogarmi quelli dell’Ufficio Indagini, mentre sottolineavo le anomalie e gli scandali mi risposero, con mia grande sorpresa ed amarezza, che erano “chiacchiere da bar”. Con questa scusa hanno spesso evitato di aprire inchieste, indagare, punire. Oggi non possono più dire che sono chiacchiere da bar, oggi ci sono le prove, oggi devono giudicare».
-Cosa si aspetta?
«Per anni ho continuato a dire la mia, senza aspettarmi niente. Ma oggi mi chiedo come possano insabbiare tutto questo. Bastano le intercettazioni, ci sono prove inconfutabili. I regolamenti esistono e sono chiari: mi aspetto che venga sanzionato chi non li ha rispettati».
-Cosa l’ha stupita o indignata di più di calciopoli?
«Che tutti continuano a dichiararsi innocenti. Nessuno ha detto: scusate abbiamo sbagliato. Sembra che nessuno abbia trasgredito le regole. Continuano a prenderci in giro, non è cambiato niente: prima negavano davanti alle supposizioni, ora negano davanti ai fatti».
-Lo ha fatto anche Moggi, piangendo, a Ballarò...
«Finora da chi è stato indagato, interrogato, intervistato ho sentito solo tante bugie, omissioni, reticenze. Le lacrime di Moggi? Io penso a quanta gente ha fatto piangere lui. Dice che gli hanno rovinato la vita? Chiedetevi quante ne ha rovinate lui. Ci sono presidenti falliti, carriere condizionate negativamente, calciatori che si sono detti ricattati, campionati falsati».
-Cosa vorrebbe dire ai giudici?
«Spero che si rendano conto di quanto è stato fatto, di come è stato condotto il calcio italiano. Spero che sentano sulla pelle la rabbia della gente, che sta dimostrando di volere un calcio pulito. Non chiedo giustizialismo, ma giustizia. Quella che per tanti anni è mancata. Prendano le loro decisioni senza farsi condizionare dall’importanza dei club coinvolti, ma solo dai reati commessi. In base ai regolamenti per casi meno importanti di quelli evidenziati dalle intercettazioni si subiscono pene severe. La giustizia sportiva ha una grande occasione, anche se parte della stampa continua a sottovalutare la gravità del caso».
-Quella che sostiene che le sanzioni dovranno tener conto della straordinarietà del caso?
«La giustizia deve valere per tutti allo stesso modo, sempre».
-La Gazzetta ha previsto «Solo la Juve in B»
«Perchè si deve parlare di serie B? Esiste anche la C2. Chi ha sbagliato paghi per ciò che ha fatto...»
-Juve, Milan, Lazio, Fiorentina. Si sta mettendo 20 milioni di tifosi...
«Il vero tifoso ama la propria squadra in qualsiasi categoria essa giochi. L’importante è il modo in cui si partecipa ad una competizione. Dovrebbe dare più piacere una vittoria ottenuta con le sole proprie forze anche in una categoria inferiore, di un successo “importante” ottenuto con mezzi illeciti».
-Eppure ci sono anche tifosi che inneggiano ai propri dirigenti implicati.
«Questo perchè la mentalità della vittoria ad ogni costo ha trascinato sulla cattiva strada anche una parte della tifoseria sbagliata. Spetta a chi dovrà gestire il calcio e far rispettare le regole riportare i giusti valori, cambiare quella mentalità».
-Tra i club non coinvolti c’è chi chiede lo scudetto, chi pretende un ripescaggio in A.
«Ognuno farà valere le sue ragioni, ma per come la vedo io giustizia deve essere fatta innanzitutto non per risarcire questo o quel club, che magari negli ultimi anni ha altri scheletri nel proprio armadio, ma per risarcire (cosa impossibile di fatto...) la gente. Si deve dare un esempio alla grande massa di sportivi sani che si vuole tornare a fare calcio pulito. I regolamenti lo permettono».
-Moggi, Giraudo, De Santis, Carraro, Mazzini, Lanese, Bergamo, Pairetto... Per la procura di Napoli hanno creato e rappresentato la “cupola”. Cosa pensa di loro?
«Vorrei che certi personaggi che hanno fatto tanto male al calcio non fossero mai esistiti. E mi auguro che non esistano più in futuro figure così. Credo che loro ed altri dirigenti vadano radiati. Invece noto che alcuni hanno addirittura mantenuto le cariche per l’organizzazione degli Europei 2012: complimenti... Ma soprattutto mi auguro che aumenti il numero di quelli che si possanno opporre a certa gente. I disonesti in ogni ambiente, in ogni epoca ci sono sempre stati, ma le mele marce possono essere escluse. Il calcio invece li ha protetti e tanta, troppa gente ha preferito mangiare insieme a loro».
-Lei si è opposto, subendone le conseguenze...
«Non voglio farne un caso personale. Io ho solo cercato di aiutare il calcio a tornare pulito. Il mio modo di agire ha spesso messo in difficoltà anche le società che mi hanno ingaggiato. E questo mi dispiace. Ho trovato comprensione e appoggio dai tifosi, che considero il mio mondo, mentre ho trovato solo ostilità dalle istituzioni. E dagli altri tesserati sono stato isolato».
-Come ha reagito davanti a tante intercettazioni in cui si parla, male, di lei?
«Non avevo bisogno di leggere le intercettazioni per sapere certe cose su di me. L’ho constatato sulla mia pelle quello che mi veniva fatto...».
-E in generale delle Intercettazioni e del loro utilizzo cosa pensa?
«Che senza le intercettazioni tutto sarebbe continuato come prima, nonostante la buona volontà di pochi e qualche libro che isolatamente ha raccontato cosa accadeva. Ritengo dunque utili queste intercettazioni e mi da fastidio che molti sostengano che è grave che siano state pubblicate sui giornali e non si indignino invece per il contenuto di quelle intercettazioni...».
-Come giudica il comportamento della stampa?
«Sto leggendo fondi indignati scritti con 5-6 anni di ritardo. Dov’erano allora certe penne e certi direttori? La stampa ha il compito di controllare ed educare. La quasi totalità, non l’ha fatto. Ci sono giornalisti pesantemente invischiati, eppure non mi risulta ci siano stati provvedimenti da parte del loro Ordine, così come non mi sembra siano stati sospesi certi agenti dei calciatori. Non basta concentrarsi sulla testa del "mostro", c’è anche il resto del corpo...».
-Chi rappresenta le braccia, le gambe, la coda del mostro?
«Sono tanti. Da tutti quei dirigenti, dg e ds, che erano stati messi dal Sistema all’interno dei club e continuano a lavorare, a chi continua a gestire il mercato dei calciatori, fino agli oscuri funzionari all’interno del Palazzo che hanno fatto carriera grazie alla loro collusione col sistema o alla loro omertà».
-C’è del marcio in Danimarca, ma se tutto è marcio?
«Bisogna ripulire e ricominciare daccapo. I mastini che difendevano il Sistema dicevano sempre: dove sono le prove? Eccole le prove, ora ci sono. Vediamo che uso ne faranno».
-Galliani è stato l’ultimo a cedere dimettendosi dalla Lega.
«Era già anomalo che fosse presidente di Lega, non doveva aspettare un deferimento per lasciare quella poltrona. Ho letto che finalmente si è levato un problema. Ma se era un problema perchè ci teneva tanto a stare lì?».
-Lippi ha resistito alla buriana ed è rimasto ct azzurro.
«Dai sondaggi è emerso che la maggior parte dei tifosi non si riconosce in certi personaggi. Ci sono delle forti anomalie all’interno della Nazionale e ho ascoltato conferenze stampa di giocatori a dir poco imbarazzanti. E’ mancato il coraggio di eliminare certe anomalie. Si vede che il risultato è sempre più importante della moralità».
-Una vittoria al Mondiale potrebbe condizionare il Processo?
«Spero di no. Mi auguro che il Mondiale non sposti l’attenzione e di questo processo ci si occupi di meno. Perchè questo scandalo è gravissimo».
-Lei potrebbe essere presto chiamato da Borrelli.
«Se mi chiamerà, mi presenterò volentieri... Una cosa è sicura: io non ci vado da indagato».
-Zeman, ora si parla di sanzioni, ma il bottino, e non parlo solo di scudetti ma di soldi, verrà mai restituito?
«Su quello deciderà la giustizia ordinaria. E’ vero c’è stato un saccheggio e c’è chi si è creato delle fortune, ma è un’altra la loro colpa maggiore. Hanno rubato molto più dei soldi: hanno rubato i sogni di milioni di persone».
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THIS IS TALKING.

It seems culprits' lawyers are not too confident about their chances on the strict facts contested; in fact yesterday they presented a lot of procedural exceptions (among them the theory that phone recordings could not be used as prooves) trying to nullify the trial and to slow it down as much as possible.

After a 6 hours consultation CAF rejected all the exceptions (giving reasons) and today the lawsuit could finally start for good.

I think i have yet to mention that some things inside CAF and federal attorney (second justice degree) changed before the trial.

From phone recordings it showed that CAF chief Martellino ( and sport judge Laudi) were somehow part of Moggi's system (:lol: ).
Commissary Rossi replaced the whole CAF committee (and Laudi resigned).
A couple of days ago federal attorney's chief De Lise resigned from his position. He is also Lazio's TAR chief, and that's the ordinary justice organ that would receive eventual applies from the condemned culprits..


Important step this morning:

The prosecutor Palazzi started his reprimand. He will close it soon specifying the charges and asking for the consequent sanctions. :jump:

Here we go:


- LAZIO -
last position in the last serie A tourney and consequent relegation to serie B.
Further penalization of 15 points for next season.


- FIORENTINA -
last position in the last serie A tourney and consequent relegation to serie B.
Further penalization of 15 points for next season.


- MILAN -
last position in the last serie A tourney and consequent relegation to serie B.
Further penalization of 3 points for next season.


- JUVENTUS -
exclusion from the serie A tourney with consequent destination to a lower category
(eventually decided by FIGC commissary: serie C1 or lower).
Further penalization of 6 points for next season.
2004/05 and 2005/06 titles called off.



Surprising to see Milan really risking serie B.
It would be quite disappointing to see a team (Fiorentina) that was damaged from the system for most of the 2004/05 and that at the end benefited from it to avoid (an unfair) relegation would be less than a category above Juventus that established and run that system.

To be noted that it seems the federal prosecutor (Palazzi) can not ask suspension for life for the associates and 5 years is the max sanction he can ask for (and 5000 euro is the max monetary sanction contemplated). Only the federal attorney (second and last grade of justice) can apply the suspension for life ratification.



-FIGC associates-

Luciano Moggi, Antonio Giraudo (Juventus); Franco Lotito (Lazio); Andrea, Diego Della Valle, Sandro Mencucci (Fiorentina); Franco Carraro former Figc vicepresident; Innocenzo Mazzini, former Figc vicepresident; Leonardo Meani (Milan) :
5 years suspension and fines of 5000 euro for every single illicit committed.

Adriano Galliani (Milan): two years suspension.



-Referees-

Paolo Bergamo and Perluigi Pairetto, former referees' nominators; Massimo de Santis, former referees' association president Tullio Lanese:
5 years suspension with 5000 euro fine; hint for suspension for life.

Paolo Bertini, Domenico Messina, Gianluca Rocchi, Paolo Tagliavento, Paolo Dondarini and Pasquale Rodomonti:
5 years suspension; hint for suspension for life.

Gianluca Paparesta, CAN observer Pietro Ingargiola, linesmen Fabrizio Babini e Claudio Puglisi:
1 year suspension.

Gennaro Mazzei, linesmen nominator:
2 years suspension.



Most requests were obvious and widely expected.
Not that sure were those requests against Carraro and Galliani though :lol:

I have to say among referees and linesmen there were several missing characters in the charges Palazzi released a couple of weeks ago.
Here is hoping they will take car of that later (Pieri and Racalbuto, I’m thinking about you..);
in fact it's worth noting that there will be another trial against other minors teams taking place later. This one is to be completed within the UEFA deadlines to join next year's European competitions, so, among the teams under inquiry, the four that qualified are judged before.

Some of the teams supposed to risk sanctions (relegation is not out of question) in the second trial are Reggina, Siena, Empoli and Messina.

Udinese could risk in the inquiry on bettings that could lead to another separated sports justice lawsuit later.

:freddie:

Now Capello resigns... the rats abandon the sinking schooner

http://www.juventus.it/uk/index.aspx

Do you think some of the smaller clubs in Serie A would boycott the competition if Juventus wasn't relegated? I know if I am an owner/manager/player for some of the smaller clubs, I would be enraged if a team that has cheated me for years was allowed to continue competing, without much sanction. If Juventus avoids relegation (which is unlikely, from all accounts), it wou