Andy Mac joining the fraternity of the elite center? [Archive]

Hockeyfan02

03-20-2006, 04:59 PM

cheesymc

03-20-2006, 05:36 PM

I agree.

Also, Gomez is damn good, but no elite Center for sure. Hes a great playmaker, but he has too many holes in his game to be a franchise player. Even Lecavalier isnt an elite guy, and might be overrated because of his size and popularity.

Professor John Frink

03-20-2006, 05:40 PM

bleuer

03-20-2006, 06:09 PM

Andy Mac: 24G/36A/60PTS/+21
Lecavalier: 32G/30A/62PTS/+1
Gomez: 24G/35A/59PTS/-3
Sakic: 24G/41A/65PTS/-2

Sure looks that way...

They all (especially Sakic and Lecavalier, not Gomez or AndyMac...) have pretty dissapointing seasons if you keep in mind that the league leading scorer has 40pts more...so he's not an elite center yet...if he can carry a line, and be in the top10 in the league in scoring, then he's an elite center :)

Randall Graves*

03-20-2006, 06:14 PM

I look at it this way, he is playing with one good winger he's been a legitimate 1st liner center this year. His road numbers will attest to this. Imagine if the ducks had a competent winger on his left side.

Hank

03-20-2006, 06:29 PM

Andy Mac: 24G/36A/60PTS/+21
Lecavalier: 32G/30A/62PTS/+1
Gomez: 24G/35A/59PTS/-3
Sakic: 24G/41A/65PTS/-2

Sure looks that way...

You need to re-evaluate what you think elite is IMO. Sakic, the top points guy on the list, is 16th in league scoring among centers. 16th.

Hockeyfan02

03-20-2006, 06:38 PM

You need to re-evaluate what you think elite is IMO. Sakic, the top points guy on the list, is 16th in league scoring among centers. 16th.

This season Sakic's production is down. But if you had a choice who would you rather have: Marc Savard or Joe Sakic? Sakic has had enough good seasons where he can still be considered an elite center. Although those days are numbered as he gets older.

mmbt

03-20-2006, 06:50 PM

This season Sakic's production is down. But if you had a choice who would you rather have: Marc Savard or Joe Sakic? Sakic has had enough good seasons where he can still be considered an elite center. Although those days are numbered as he gets older.

Yeah, but by that same argument Andy's only had one 3/4's season's worth where he's performed at a level equivalent to an aging Sakic in his twilight years ... so that makes Andy far from "elite."

wabwat

03-20-2006, 07:17 PM

Yeah, but by that same argument Andy's only had one 3/4's season's worth where he's performed at a level equivalent to an aging Sakic in his twilight years ... so that makes Andy far from "elite."

and there are few people other than Sakic that i hate to see with the puck in slot all alone. even this season!

TheJoeMan

03-21-2006, 02:02 AM

Come on now, lets not get crazy here.

Sufficent? Yes

Above average year? Yes

Elite? not even close

IMO he is still a second line center. If we can get Getzlaf to really become a force things will be bright in Anaheim, but we need some compliments to that Selanne/McD duo.

Andy Mac has proven this year that he is a first-line center and a damn good one. He may not be elite but who cares? He is dominant on this team and that's all that matters.

Eternity Is Now

03-21-2006, 02:09 AM

SHAWN HORCOFF - 66GP 20G 48A 68PTS
Is he an elite center? I think not...
First line center? Probably shouldn't be
ANDY MCDONALD - 66GP 24G 36A 60PTS
Is he an elite center? I think not..
First line center? Probably shouldn't be

both very similar this season, good on both of them for the making the most of the season, but in no way are they elite!

Pwnasaurus

03-21-2006, 08:46 AM

My plan is working...Andy with the huge goal last night....next up...is Jeff Friesen an elite post season forward :sarcasm:

taunting canadian

03-21-2006, 10:20 AM

Professor John Frink

03-21-2006, 10:43 AM

Andy Mac has proven this year that he is a first-line center and a damn good one. He may not be elite but who cares? He is dominant on this team and that's all that matters.

Proving he is a first line center would require him to do it for more than one season. I would still argue that his current play warrants him as a second line guy on a deep team. On this team he is a first line guy. I hope it doesn't stay that way.

Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining about him. But all this talk IMO is looney toons. Every one of you knows what a 1st line center is and every one of you should know that Andy, although great this season, is not a 1st line C.

mmbt

03-21-2006, 10:46 AM

Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining about him. But all this talk IMO is looney toons. Every one of you knows what a 1st line center is and every one of you should know that Andy, although great this season, is not a 1st line C.

Or more precisely, he's either a mediocre 1st line center, or he'd be an excellent 2nd line center. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd rather have a bunch of guys who are excellent for the position they play, rather than a bunch of guys who are average for where they play. Because in the latter case, you'll almost by definition end up with an average team.

TheJoeMan

03-21-2006, 01:19 PM

What's funny is he is having the best year a center on the Ducks has ever had but yet most of us still can't seem to agree he's a first line center. I recognized how good he was back in 2002-2003 before he got hurt and had that not happened we wouldn't be having this discussion.

We on pace for our best season and he's on pace for the best season for a center on this team. Who cares how he would line up on a deep team? He lines up just fine on this one. Getzlaf might be the top line center on the future but that's a ways away.

hattrick74

03-21-2006, 02:08 PM

TheJoeMan

03-21-2006, 03:29 PM

elite centers in the NHL:
thornton: 25/74/99
datsyuk: 26/55/81
sakic: 26/43/69
modano: 26/41/67
forsberg: 17/50/67

andy mac is having a breakout year but i think its a peak year, i would be surprised if he ever has this many points again, not because he isnt talented but because he isnt the protoype top line center. i would imagine burke will get a big, tough 1st line center, that way mac can be in a better 2nd line role. if you give mac guys who can finish like selanne he will be good

Problem with that is we have four centers right now who don't seem to me like they are going anywhere. Getzy and Marchant are under contract for next year and Andy and Sammy will definitely be resigned so unless Burke screws with what's been working for us, I think he'll keep it that way. If anything Getzy will move into the first line center role but not for another year probably.

Like I said he may not be elite, but who cares? He gets the job done and we are playing great hockey. The last time we "upgraded" our first-line center after our Cup run, it blew up in our faces. Burke knows better than mess with a good thing.

Eternity Is Now

03-21-2006, 04:11 PM

Not elite. Probably first line. Can you name 30 centers who are better, since that's how many first line centers there are in this league...
1.Thornton
2.Staal
3.Savard
4.Jokinen
5.Datsyuk
6.Crosby
7.Marleau
8.Richards
9.Sakic
10.Modano
11.Sedin
12.Spezza
13.Forsberg
14.Gomez
15.Bergeron
16.Yashin
17.Demitra
18.Sundin
19.Allison
20.Weight
21.Koivu
22.Briere
23.Federov
24.Drury
25.Rolston
26.Arnott
27.Lecavalier
28.Brind'Amour
29.Nylander
30.Lang

There are 30 centers to which are better or very comparable to Andy Mac and Horcoff...now i am a big fan of Andy Mac and i have a huge oilers fan, so i am falling in love with horcoff...but i mean theres no way anyone could have said Macdonald or horcoff would be #1 centers for their teams...they have proven themselves this season and are doing great, but come next year will they be able to hold their position? i dont think so IMO...

bleuer

03-21-2006, 04:24 PM

I agree with most of them...but Allison???

Kimi

03-21-2006, 05:07 PM

1.Thornton
2.Staal
3.Savard
4.Jokinen
5.Datsyuk
6.Crosby
7.Marleau
8.Richards
9.Sakic
10.Modano
11.Sedin
12.Spezza
13.Forsberg
14.Gomez
15.Bergeron
16.Yashin
17.Demitra
18.Sundin
19.Allison
20.Weight
21.Koivu
22.Briere
23.Federov
24.Drury
25.Rolston
26.Arnott
27.Lecavalier
28.Brind'Amour
29.Nylander
30.Lang

There are 30 centers to which are better or very comparable to Andy Mac and Horcoff...now i am a big fan of Andy Mac and i have a huge oilers fan, so i am falling in love with horcoff...but i mean theres no way anyone could have said Macdonald or horcoff would be #1 centers for their teams...they have proven themselves this season and are doing great, but come next year will they be able to hold their position? i dont think so IMO...
I wouldn't have Fedorov on that list, Andy Mac beat him out of the job here.

Eternity Is Now

03-21-2006, 05:34 PM

Whether you like it or not Federov is still a better player the any mac...and didn't they get rid of him for salary reasons? i'm just asking cause i dont know myself...

Hockeyfan02

03-21-2006, 07:18 PM

Are you just naming guys or is that a list of #1 being the best, #2 second best, etc?

Randall Graves*

03-21-2006, 07:22 PM

Or more precisely, he's either a mediocre 1st line center, or he'd be an excellent 2nd line center. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd rather have a bunch of guys who are excellent for the position they play, rather than a bunch of guys who are average for where they play. Because in the latter case, you'll almost by definition end up with an average team.
In the salary cap world, you can't have 'excellent' players at every position.

He's done a great job, is he an ideal 2nd line center? yeah but circumstances have put him at#1 and he hasn't looked out of place...while playing with ONE good winger all year.

and yes he's better than Fedorov.

sammyp

03-21-2006, 07:34 PM

Static

03-21-2006, 07:44 PM

Brind'Amour has been very good this year, but Nylander and Allison shouldnt be on the list. I would question Feds there as well.

cheechoo14whitney

03-21-2006, 07:50 PM

Andy Mac isn't an "elite" center yet. Sakic is the only one I'd consider elite out of that group and I'm a huge Lecavalier fan. To me, Andy Mac is still a 2nd line center who Carlyle has on the 1st line because there are no better options. He's played awesome this year, but he's nowhere close to be mentioned with the likes of Thornton, Forsberg, Sakic as elite centers. He needs to string together some big years to be mentioned as an elite center. One pretty good year doesn't get him up there. With the talent this team has coming up prospect wise though, I wouldn't be surprised to see him have a few more years like this one.

very true. mac is enjoying a great season, but he will need to stand out for a couple more years before he can be labelled an elite center. gomez isn't elite either. he's good, very good maybe. but he's not an elite or franchise player. nor is a crosby or ovechkin a franchise player yet; they sure are, but only in the leagues they played before, not in the nhl. there are great hopes for those kids though. not even nash is quite there, and he's a couple steps ahead of guys like gomez and macdonald. there are dozens of players in the mold of a gomez and macdonald; i'm not even sure yet what kind of player macdonald really is, we will see :)

don't get me wrong, macdonald is a good player. i don't believe in things labelled 'fluke seasons' - to have an outstanding season, an athlete needs to be highly skilled; but he should never forget to work for every shift he gets!

and i also have the strong belief that such lists are nothing but amusement, you can't rate the leagues' players like they were participants in a swimming contest :shakehead what is the rating based on? stats? estimated talent? ea sports player ratings? impact on their respective teams?

Randall Graves*

03-21-2006, 08:39 PM

Brind'Amour has been very good this year, but Nylander and Allison shouldnt be on the list. I would question Feds there as well.
I think he's having just a good or better years than Drury, Lecavalier, Sundin, Koivu, Gomez, Yashin, Weight, Fedorov, Lang, Nylander, Rolston atleast.

hattrick74

03-21-2006, 10:37 PM

I think he's having just a good or better years than Drury, Lecavalier, Sundin, Koivu, Gomez, Yashin, Weight, Fedorov, Lang, Nylander, Rolston atleast. and yes he's better than Fedorov.

look i know your bitter and fedorov because he dogged it some times with the ducks, but fedorov is still a worldclass player-when he wants to be, with that being said when u have a player with less talent (mac) but showing up every night, i would take him too. fedorov is still a better defensive player though. i would say that roloston is having a better year because he is used as a top line center, top PK and point on the PP. that is valuable very valuable.

Randall Graves*

03-22-2006, 12:41 AM

look i know your bitter and fedorov because he dogged it some times with the ducks, but fedorov is still a worldclass player-when he wants to be, with that being said when u have a player with less talent (mac) but showing up every night, i would take him too. fedorov is still a better defensive player though. i would say that roloston is having a better year because he is used as a top line center, top PK and point on the PP. that is valuable very valuable.
Why would I be bitter? can you read? I said he was having atleast a good a year or better than those guys? Is he having a good a year as Fedorov? yes or no? Theres absolutely no reason to be bitter, the ducks got a top 4 dman and cap space in return.

McDonald19

03-22-2006, 12:47 AM

look i know your bitter and fedorov because he dogged it some times with the ducks, but fedorov is still a worldclass player-when he wants to be, with that being said when u have a player with less talent (mac) but showing up every night, i would take him too. fedorov is still a better defensive player though. i would say that roloston is having a better year because he is used as a top line center, top PK and point on the PP. that is valuable very valuable.

Fedorov is done. He will play out his contract with Columbus giving them about 40-50 points a season and then retire...while McDonald gives the Ducks 80 points a season for the next few seasons.

Kimi

03-22-2006, 02:05 AM

Whether you like it or not Federov is still a better player the any mac...and didn't they get rid of him for salary reasons? i'm just asking cause i dont know myself...
He wasn't very good. We were better without him (as shown in our recored when he was out for a bit). Fedorov has more skill, better D and such. But he didn't use any of it, you've got to judge on what people do, not what they can do.

hattrick74

03-22-2006, 03:00 AM

Why would I be bitter? can you read? I said he was having atleast a good a year or better than those guys? Is he having a good a year as Fedorov? yes or no? Theres absolutely no reason to be bitter, the ducks got a top 4 dman and cap space in return.

i said your bitter (and rightfully so i would be to) for having a guy like fedorov who is a top end player not playing as hard as he can. he is a rare player that has everrything, i honestly believe fedorov could be MVP canidate this year. but he is contend finishing out his contract and leaving like Mcdonald19 said. of course mac is having a great year, i just think its a peak year meaning he wont get 70-75 points again. the best case scenario is Getslaf taking over the #1 center line next yr and have a stall like year. then Mac can have a 2nd line role which would suit him better. how much cap space did you save by dealin feds? because it looks like only $2 million, which can get you a 2nd line player but nothing elite. now if marchant is a UFA then you got 4.5 cap space.

hattrick74

03-22-2006, 03:01 AM

while McDonald gives the Ducks 80 points a season for the next few seasons.

you really think he can get 80 points a season? seeing how i dont even think he will get 75 this year (thats a point per game for the rest of the yr) i dont think he could get 80 points, 65-70 is a better range IMO

Randall Graves*

03-22-2006, 04:28 AM

i said your bitter (and rightfully so i would be to) for having a guy like fedorov who is a top end player not playing as hard as he can. he is a rare player that has everrything, i honestly believe fedorov could be MVP canidate this year. but he is contend finishing out his contract and leaving like Mcdonald19 said. of course mac is having a great year, i just think its a peak year meaning he wont get 70-75 points again. the best case scenario is Getslaf taking over the #1 center line next yr and have a stall like year. then Mac can have a 2nd line role which would suit him better. how much cap space did you save by dealin feds? because it looks like only $2 million, which can get you a 2nd line player but nothing elite. now if marchant is a UFA then you got 4.5 cap space.
WHY SHOULD I BE BITTER?

The ducks are better without him, he's overpaid and he's on a retirement contract. he's a good player, just not a great player. the ducks have done just fine without him and there really is nothing to be bitter about.

With Wrights retirement the ducks got 3 million dollars more under the cap for THIS year, and not on the hook for the 12 million he's still owed, and found a top 4 dman out of it. I'd say the deal has worked out just fine.

McDonald19

03-22-2006, 07:29 AM

you really think he can get 80 points a season? seeing how i dont even think he will get 75 this year (thats a point per game for the rest of the yr) i dont think he could get 80 points, 65-70 is a better range IMO

He had a slow start, well the whole team had a slow start to the season.

I could be wrong, but I believe Andy has been a point a game player since mid November.

80 points is still tough in the new NHL so who knows, but if anyone on the Ducks can do it the next couple seasons it would be McDonald since he is our top playmaker.

McDonald19

03-22-2006, 07:31 AM

With Wrights retirement the ducks got 3 million dollars more under the cap for THIS year, and not on the hook for the 12 million he's still owed, and found a top 4 dman out of it. I'd say the deal has worked out just fine.

Did Wright officially retire? I haven't heard anything.

Pepper

03-22-2006, 07:58 AM

Did Wright officially retire? I haven't heard anything.

He's not listed at NHLPA.com anymore.

How did we get 3M more cap space for this year?? Wright didn't get that much, not even close.

McDonald19

03-22-2006, 08:02 AM

Yeah Wright was not owed 12 million I don't know where Rallykiller got that.

Wright is listed as a UFA this summer, though CBJ fans had said he was on contract for 06-07 at 900,000.

I don't know where those 3 million and 12 million numbers came from.

Pepper

03-22-2006, 08:15 AM

Maybe he's talking about Fedorov's contract?

6M /2 means 3M savings this year and the remaing contract was 12M.

McDonald19

03-22-2006, 08:18 AM

Maybe he's talking about Fedorov's contract?

6M /2 means 3M savings this year and the remaing contract was 12M.

yeah that would make more sense.

Pwnasaurus

03-22-2006, 09:22 AM

i honestly believe fedorov could be MVP canidate this year.

Yeah he's been craptacular

Eternity Is Now

03-22-2006, 02:49 PM

This is not a good list IMO.

First of all, I'd put Andy Mac around #18-22 on your list. Yashin and Bergeron are ranked way too high BTW. Allison, Nylander, and Brind'Amour DEFINITELY don't even belong on that list.

the list wasn't in terms of best to worst i wasn't ranking them...it was just a list of 30 thats just proving a point that there are 30 nhl centers that can be a number 1 centers comparable or better then some one like horcoff or andy mac.

mmbt

03-22-2006, 03:01 PM

the list wasn't in terms of best to worst i wasn't ranking them...it was just a list of 30 thats just proving a point that there are 30 nhl centers that can be a number 1 centers comparable or better then some one like horcoff or and mac.

I agree, though I think the difference between guys around 20th and, say, 40th (IOW, the difference between an average to good 2nd line center and a mediocre 1st line center) is pretty small, and year to year variation can have a big effect.

Randall Graves*

03-22-2006, 04:17 PM

He's not listed at NHLPA.com anymore.

How did we get 3M more cap space for this year?? Wright didn't get that much, not even close.
marchant makes 2 and half, Wright made 900k, Beauchemin makes around the minimum. Fedorov makes 6 million a year. you add Beauchemin's and Marchants salaries and they are due about 3 million...so 3 mil cap space for this year. The 12 million number was just the total fedorov is owed after this year.

hockey nut

03-22-2006, 06:10 PM

I'm not sure if this is a fluke year by McDonald as he has really impressed - it could also be something to do with new coach Randy Carlyle. I haven't seen a player in a Ducks uniform score so many key goals at critical times lately. WTG Andy!

LooGDuck

03-23-2006, 10:36 PM

16.Yashin
19.Allison
23.Federov
29.Nylander

There are 30 centers to which are better or very comparable to Andy Mac and Horcoff...now i am a big fan of Andy Mac and i have a huge oilers fan, so i am falling in love with horcoff...but i mean theres no way anyone could have said Macdonald or horcoff would be #1 centers for their teams...they have proven themselves this season and are doing great, but come next year will they be able to hold their position? i dont think so IMO...
FedOrov, didnt we get rid of him and move andy up(based on this year)
Yashin Is terrible
Nylander is definatly not better
allison injury prone and lazy

i agree with most of the list but not those four.

Static

03-23-2006, 10:52 PM

You know, Mac is really, really starting to remind me of Paul Kariya. I know that he doesnt have the same level of skill (or maybe he does, no one can say for sure) but his speed, body type, and playmaking skills just really remind me of him. It was strange watching him score the goal last night against Colorado becuase I got this odd feeling that Kariya and Selenne were finally reunited with the Ducks, only it wasnt Kariya.

This is kind of strange, and the vibe around this team right now...I dont know, but there is something there.

hattrick74

03-23-2006, 10:59 PM